ANNE GWYNNE friend and host killed by Israel

Abu salem was one of the chief engineers of Hammas in the Nablus area.

A wanted Hamas activist was killed early Friday
morning during an Israel Defense Forces arrest
raid in a refugee camp in the West Bank city of
Nablus.




The militant, Hamis Abu Salam,
was killed in a series of
blasts that were set off when
an IDF missile hit what was
apparently an explosives
laboratory in his building. It
was not immediately known how
many other casualties there
were.


Military intelligence sources said that Hamas is
taking advantage of the cease-fire that
militant Palestinian groups declared at the end
of June in order to re-arm and improve its
stock of explosives.

IDF sources said troops entered the Askar
refugee camp in Nablus at 4:30 A.M. to arrest
suspects. The soldiers surrounded the building
in which Abu Salam lived and asked him to
surrender. Palestinians then opened fire on the
troops from the third floor of the building.

Troops returned fire, aiming an anti-tank
missile at the third floor. The missile set off
a series of blasts when it hit the explosives,
destroying the third floor. Abu Salam's body
was found beneath the rubble.

IDF troops also found two rifles and a pistol in
searches they conducted in the area.

Palestinian witnesses said the IDF evacuated
Palestinian families from the building.

South of the West Bank city of Tul Karm, troops
overnight discovered and defused a 35-kg. bomb
hidden in a truck.

Another Palestinian bomb-making 'freedom fighter' bites the big one.

For there to be peace, the bomb-making and violence MUST stop from the Palestinian side. That won't happen, because peace is the LAST thing the Palestinians want. Unless it's the peace of Israel being dead.

This was yet another summary execution by Israeli terrorists of a man they *claim" was a criminal. But since he was an Arab in the Occupied Territories, he was not afforded the opportunity to defend himself of the charge in court. Instead, he was murdered in cold blood. Had this been done to an Israeli citizen, the Zionists would scream to high heaven about what a terrorist act it was. Zionists are hypocrities, terrorists and murderers.

To be a murderer the Israelies were looking for, in amongst a lot of bomb-making supplies and explosives.

Damned unfortunate, what?

"Military intelligence sources said that Hamas is
taking advantage of the cease-fire that
militant Palestinian groups declared at the end
of June in order to re-arm and improve its
stock of explosives."

That looks rather accurate to me - it fits with what they're doing.

"IDF sources said troops entered the Askar
refugee camp in Nablus at 4:30 A.M. to arrest
suspects. The soldiers surrounded the building
in which Abu Salam lived and asked him to
surrender. Palestinians then opened fire on the
troops from the third floor of the building."

They ASKED him to surrender? How crass. And those murdering swine actually evacuated Palestinian CIVILIANS beforehand.

"Palestinian witnesses said the IDF evacuated
Palestinian families from the building. "

How are you going to maintain your body count levels when you evacuate noncombatants?

No - no sympathy appropriate here.

It's all nomenclature, isn't it? The Palestinian 'freedom fighter' bombing a pizza parlor full of civilians is much more moral than the IDF evacuating civilians and killing a terrorist.

But hey, who really cares about morality, anyway? Far better that one bomber kills 50 Israelies than the IDF kill one bomber, right?

Nessie,

What you fail to understand is that it is not a violation of international law if hammas kills an Israeli soldier.

It is also not a violation of the law if israel kills a Hammas (call it what you wantL terrorist, melitia man, militant etc..)

It is also not a violation of the law if Israel does it best to warn civilian to leave the area.

On the other it IS a violation of geneva convention and International law to:

1. Place an explosive lab in residental area (middle of Askar refugee camp)

2. use explosives to explode civilian buses or resturants.

"Execution", huh? You think the disputed territories are Scandinavian-like culturally speaking? Goes to show you're ignorant of many facts.

Read carefully, nessie.
Under the Oslo Accords (since 1993), the "Palestinians" had been supposed to arrest terrorists from their ranks and bring them to justice but they hardly ever did. Israel pleaded with them to do so, to no avail.
That leaves Israel with 2 options: to try and apprehend the terrorist alive and bring him to justice in an Israeli court, or to kill him whenever the first option isn't possible.
Hamas, PFLP, al-Aqsa Brigade Martyrs and Islamic Jihad men (along with a few other Fatah sub groups), who are all terrorists, are mostly armed and dangerous,- something that excludes their arrest.
All the organizations I've mentioned are terroristic whose ideology is Nazi-like, bent on murdering as many Jews as possible both in the disputed territories and in Israel proper regardless of gaining independence of Israel. They espouse ethnic cleansing of Jews and admire the Nazis.

Whether you believe what I've told you or not is your choice, but it's the reality irrespective of your opinion.

or so it would seem.

"During the fight in Hammis home a whole floor colapsed after a US made TOW missile was fired and detonated the explosive that were Hammids place"

Now why would he have explosives in his house in the first place? Seems kind of, oh, unsafe, you know? And rather inconsiderate of his NEIGHBORS safety too!

Oh, I know why he had them! He blew stumps out of the ground for Palestinian farmers! Yeah, that's the ticket!

And he needed lots around for those real quick stump jobs, right? He was just a peaceful Palestinian plying his trade...

(And Jeffry Dahmer was just a frustrated caterer. Right. Pull the other one, it's got a bell on.)

"Another thing. The attack on the king david govt hotel was SHUNNED by israel's powers that be. It was a RARE event."

It was so rare, in fact, that some of the British officers who were garrisoned there were having a good healthy laugh down in the bar there when it went off. Seems they had received written warning, in advance of the bomb, to evacuate themselves so that they wouldn't be hurt, and they found the very idea of Jewish terrorist bombers so humorous they assumed it was a practical joke.

The attempt to paint such an action as morally equivalent to wrapping yourself in a nail-studded beltbomb and walking into a crowded blues bar like "Mike's Place" with the intent, not only to kill as many people as possible, but to kill as many civilians as possible -- well, it's the ability to make that kind of comparison with a straight face that makes people like nessie what they are -- abjectly irrelevant.

@%<

Why should we believe you and not her? Be specific.

Oh no. A Zionist asshole maniac has been removed from earth. How horrible! Boo hoo!

"So what? An evil act is an evil act, no matter who commits is, or how many times."

Guess Palestinians are categorically unable to commit evil acts - so if what they do (bombing pizza parlors and such) isn't evil, how can what the IDF did be considered so?

Relativism cuts both ways, after all. If Hammas ain't evil, then neither is the IDF.

Isn't that inconvenient? You MUST hold both sides to the same standard.

If it's evil for the IDF to kill a terrorist, then it must be evil for the Palesntinians to kill Israelies.

To use your own words - ""So what? An evil act is an evil act, no matter who commits is, or how many times."

Or, to paraphrase Mr. Gump - "Evil is as evil does." And by my standards, the Palestinians you revere who are fighting Israel with bombs and guns are pretty far over on the Evil-meter. The ones working to make peace with Israel aren't - but I doubt you'd support them the same way you would Hamas.

A week later, news of a massacre of 40 Jews in a pogrom in Poland reminded the Jews of Palestine how Britain's restrictive immigration policy had condemned thousands to death.

Irgun leader Menachem Begin stressed his desire to avoid civilian casualties and said three telephone calls were placed, one to the hotel, another to the French Consulate, and a third to the Palestine Post, warning that explosives in the King David Hotel would soon be detonated.

On July 22, 1946, the calls were made. The call into the hotel was apparently received and ignored. Begin quotes one British official who supposedly refused to evacuate the building, saying: "We don't take orders from the Jews."1 As a result, when the bombs exploded, the casualty toll was high: a total of 91 killed and 45 injured. Among the casualties were 15 Jews. Few people in the hotel proper were injured by the blast.

Tell that to the dead of Deir Yassin.

It's amazing how many enemies the jews still have to deal with on this planet. Unfortunately, the enemy is now on the far left, too. These scumbag leftists aren't just against israel's occupation, they think the jews have no "right" (hah) to a state. Being "anti-zionist" means being against zionism, and zionism calls for israel's existence. Basically, these fucking scumbags want to do everything they can to take israel away from jewish control and put it in the hands of muslims.

being anti-zionist doesn't mean being against certain aspects of the israeli government or being against the "occupation." being anti-zionist means being against a jewish state existing, as it already does.

There are 20-something muslim states. What do you think motivates these "anti-zionists" to work so obsessively to single out the one tiny jewish state that doesn't even hold 10 million people and to call for the one tiny jewish state to be dismantled?

If you're "anti-zionist" then you want israel dismantled. In which case I suggest you go to hell. Leave the jews alone.

The basis of the anti jew argument was always leftist.
In as far as the nazi were "right" they just hijacked the idea.
the basis is that people were jellious of the jews relitively good financial position (partly due to them being money lenders) and that they were conspicuous because of their religion and separation. It is an appeal to the fact that some people appear to be too good at somthing or too influential and somehow need to be "cut down to size".
That is a concern of the left (equality) not of the right (encourage people to make best use of what they have)
It is when they want to apppeal to the masses tha the leaders and those in power turn on jews.

As I understand it, Nessie's a guy.

And I also think that, outside the topic of Zionism, his heart's in the right place against antisemitism. It's just when he wanders into his views on Zionism that all the funhouse mirrors come out and he can't see how he's contradicting himself. Sometimes it gets pretty funny.

@%<

CT: " I challenge it to prove me wrong by citing at least ONE example of a posting on this site in which it cried out against Arab violations of Jews' human rights in the Land of Israel prior to Zionism's advent."

I suspect that Nessie will instead hew to the party line, that all was absolutely perfectly perfect on the human rights front up until Basel. I would be particularly interested if he could point to a post in which he used the word "dhimmi" and then reflected on its implications with anything deeper than "'they do it too' is no argument."

@%<

To Critical Thinker: Once in a while, when forced, we have been able to draw a token criticism of muslim states. But it's clearly not on the AGENDA of these "peace activists" to play on a level playing field.

To gherig and everyone: Yeah, they're funny. But what's horribly not funny is that these people are social leaders and involved with organizations and groups that spend time and money actually promoting this crap.

They're actually out there, on the streets, flooding the world with information about ABSURD demonization of the concept of zionism, intentionally exaggerating what Israel does, etc. They're on a mission. They're against capitalism, and the US and Israel are seen as the two brothers of it, with the US as the big brother and Israel as the little brother. But what's funny is that Israel wants to put a fence up to make it harder for terrorists to come into the country, and everyone yells like it's somehow unfair for a country to protect itself from terrorism.

That's why the nessies and the "far left" are off the deep end. They aren't just against Israel's continued land control of the west bank and gaza. They refuse to admit that palestinian rejection of peace offers and decades of terrorism has anything to do with israel continuining to maintain control. They aren't just calling for an end to it and they aren't just looking for a solution so that both sides can be okay. They are "anti-zionists." They are against israel existing at all. They are against the notion that human beings who are jewish should be allowed to control a patch of land that gives a bit of special treatment to jews when it comes to immigration and a few other things. They fail to see why 100 years ago when zionism developed, it was necessary. They INTENTIONALLY LIE and claim that the motives behind zionism were "jewish supremecism," which is exactly what daivd duke, neo-nazis and other lunatics make up and spread. They exaggerate everything israel does. THey demonize everything israel does. THey pretend everything is israel's fault. They claim to not want ANY states to exist that give alleged special treatment on the basis of religion or ethnicity, but while 20-something muslim states that didn't "need" to be created for survival purposes exist, these "peace activists" barely utter a word, but the one tiny jewish state that exists, which was formed for self-preservation purposes, these "peace activists" single the jewish state out, demonize every reason behind why it was formed, and are on an anti-israel mission.

And then they wonder why people call them anti-semites. THey aren't anti-semites because they are making valid criticism of a country's behavior or setup. They appear to be anti-semites because they INTENTIONALLY SINGLE OUT the jewish state, LIE and EXAGGERATE every negative thing they can about it, they DO NOT apply the same standards of criticism to other nations, and their line of demonization goes directly along with what actual public anti-semites invent. The only place where neo-nazis, david duke, white supremecists and other scumbags who just make up insane claims about their enemies and these "peace activists" like sf.indymedia.org will agree is on their absurd demonization of israel.

Good job, nessie. You and david duke spew the same anti-zionism lies. Way to go! SIngle those jews out, while pretending it isn't because they're jewish! Yay!

nessie: "Indymedia exists to provide an alternative to the ubiquitous propaganda mill of the global corporate-government complex, whose agenda you are helping promote every time that you distract, yet again, from the central message that Zionism is racism and we American taxpayers heap danger and dishonor upon our heads and the heads of our children, by footing even the tiniest part of its bill. "

Translation: we want to replace one dogma with another, and if you don't accept Nessie's New Catechism, then he'll call you a sinner and try to exorcise you. The problem with corporate media is that they all say the same thing, but if you're on SF-IMC, by God, I you better toe the dogmatic line here, in the name of "alternative expression." If you disagree with Nessie, well, it's just because you're wrong, that's all, and you might as well be Rupert Murdoch, and Nessie will treat you as if you are. That's the "alternative" part: some people are wrong and other people are Nessie. Those are your alternatives. So saith SF-IMC.

Once again, could Nessie point to the officially documented decision by the SF-IMC collective in which it was determined that it would henceforth be SF-IMC policy that Zionism should officially be considered a form of racism? Or is that dogma one that Nessie has taken it upon himself to disseminate, on his own authority?

@%<

"I challenge it to prove me wrong by citing at least ONE example of a posting on this site in which it cried out against Arab violations of Jews' human rights in the Land of Israel prior to Zionism's advent"

Before Israel became Israel it was ruled by the British and before that the Turks.... There were periods where Crusaders took over parts of the area and massacred Jews and Muslims alike...

we will not rest untill we drive evry one of you from the land we want! we will take what ever we like, and act as we please! IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT TOO BAD!

Have you thought about switching to decaf? .

First of all, just because you call yourself 'critical thinker' doesn't mean, by any stretch, that you are one.

I prefer to call you "Non-critical Thinker", or the diminutive "nct", for short. May I?

Secondly, are you Ender's daddy? Can't Ender respond for him/herself? Oh! I looked down the thread from your response. I see she/he can't.

>>>"Philosophically and morally I don't believe in Israel's right to exist at all. "<<<
>You're saying in effect that you don't believe Jews have a right for their own country whatsoever.

That's right!

European Jews didn't and don't have a right to, so-called, "their own country" at the expense of millions of non-Jewish indigenous people in their own land. To say otherwise is racist. If Zionists could have found an unclaimed, uninhabited land, or a land where the indigenous people or citizens were even consulted and agreed, then "Jews" (note: Israel is not synonynous with Judaism or Jewry) would have had a right to a country of their own.

Do Jews have a right to "their own country" in New York City, nct? Or anywhere else on earth that is already inhabited?

>yet no one cared about giving them "land".

Isn't that a strange thing? Most people just don't like an influx of people from a foreign country (and another continent at that) trying to push them aside, take over, and colonize the place. (Not even Europeans liked it with each other.) Stange.

>>>"Although I do believe that Jews can stay in Palestine if they behave as a civilized people"<<<
>Prior to Israel's establishment in 1948 Jews had been living in the Land of Israel a.k.a Palestine, behaving very civilly.

Gandhi would strongly disagree with you, nct, as many others have sometimes noted here in various indymedia posts.

>You think Arabs are like Scandinavians (religiously and culturally tolerant)? You seem to know very little about the Mideast.

Once again, the ignorance is yours, nct. You seem to know very little about Scandinavia. Just as with Palestine, just as with the country you have made your home in, the U.S. (with Jews, then, or Mexicans and other Latin Americans, today), just as with Western Europe, Scandinavia, in the earlier 20th century, also did not want a mass influx of Eastern European Jews and even passed laws to limit Jewish immigration. There were even, at times, social protests over the number of Jewish immigrants 'taking over society.' Of course, what should have happened was that each country should have agreed to take certain percentages of, especially, Jewish refugees, so that no one country would be burdened with a mass influx. As it was, many anti-Semites supported Israel for that purpose. So, you are not only allied with Chomsky, David Duke and neo-Nazis, you are also allied with other anti-Semites. Whereas, it is anti-Zionists who believe that Jews should be multiculturally welcomed in any country and not be shunted off en masse to Israel, and foisted upon a non-white, 3rd World country to have had to deal with.

>>>"a Jewish-supremacist apartheid state, within 1967 borders"<<<
>This notion is horseshit. You are ignorant regarding both what Apartheid means and Israel's regime.

There are anti-Zionist Jewish South Africans who would also strongly disagree with you, nct. The ANC leaders and South African anti-Apartheid intellectuals, black, white, and Jewish, would also disagree with you, as well as many former anti-Apartheid activists. Otherwise, all that apologist stuff you (just another white racist) spout about Arab (I see that you even refuse to call them Palestinians) being politicians, doctors, lawyers, and other "lucrative" professionals (suddenly they are all rich, eh?) could have been used by white racist apartheid Afrikaners and post-civil war white racist Southern whites (as well as the right for blacks to vote) to 'prove' that there wasn't any (real) racism, then and there, either.

Apartheid means two criteria, standards or systems of laws whereby one group of people maintain a certain legal and/or social separation and institutional domination over another group of subordinated people. Israel has legally and institutionally, as well as demographically, encodified its intention to remain a Jewish-supremacist state. This has, most recently, been dramatically portrayed in Israel's new "apartheid" law (not only legally and socially, but even literally) for Israeli Jews who marry Palestinians. It is also an anti-miscegenation law, similiar to those once practiced in the U.S. (Of course, other pretexts and 'justifications' are always used when such laws are passed.) Therefore, the ignorance, expectedly, is in what passes for your brain, nct.

>While there is Jewish supremacy to a large extent in Israel

You see, not even you, nct, can deny this. (I guess that your explanation would be that Palestinians are just an inferior people?) Now, with even a Zionist like you, your inability to deny this much represents some progress against Zionist propaganda.

>this is a very far cry from being Jewish supremacism.

But then, of course, you, nct, being Zionist, have to try to backtrack and fudge it.

>Let me put it to you simply

Most racists are: simple, that is.

>whereas the "Palestinians" are portrayed as the good ones, which they are NOT.

Not one? I see: "Jews, good. Palestinians, bad."

You're the very person, nct, a racist hyocrite, who would be jumping up and down calling everyone "vile anti-Semties" if someone made a generalization like that about Jews.

>The thing is that most "Palestinians" either commit terrorism or aid and abet it. This is the truth. Stating the truth is not about being racist.

Reminds me of what other racist whites like you, nct, say about blacks: "The thing is that most blacks commit crimes. (Or most crimes are commited by blacks.) This is the truth. Stating the truth is not about being racist."

But how you define "terrorism" and "crime" is racist. That is why you yourself, nct, are a Zionist racist (a redundancy, I admit). I guess, of course, you deny that there were ever any (internationally wanted, at that) Zionist terrorists. I guess, of course, you deny that Israel carries out any state terrorism. I guess, of course, that you deny that Israel itself was established in no small measure on terrorism. You, of course, deny that it is "terrorism" for the state of Israel to kill 15 or more clearly innocent people (or is there any such thing as an innocent Palestinian in your mind) to kill one "terrorist". Zionist racists say that the innocent people should not have been around the "terrorist", but they never say that "innocent" Israelis (most of whom serve in the military) should have never been in a state among the Israeli military or military combatants, especially in an expansionist state at war, of one kind or another, against others. Racist Zionists like you, nct, never say that "innocent" Israelis should have never been on a bus with Israeli soldiers.

Just as racist white-Americans never acknowledge that white-collar crime, white corporate crime, and white government bureaucratic crime costs the country far more, and actually harms many more (even white people) than "crime", typically perceived as small-time black street crime. Racist whites like you, nct, never count the innumerable crimes of the police, either participating in protection rackets for illicit crime, or the more apparent beating of blacks. Racist whites like you, ct, never acknowledge (or even know) that even in the illegal drug trade whites participate at every level of society (as users and dealers), even our intelligence networks, and they get the richest from it. So, it's your racist Zionist mentality, nct, that defines what "terrorism" is.

>>>"They both believe in your Jewish racist utopia in a land where millions of non-Jewish indigenous people live. "<<<
>Truth of the matter is only a rather small portion of the Arabs who now consider themselves "Palestinians" have ancestors who were ever indigenous in the Land of Israel.

Yes, that bit of racist propaganda and 'justification' is from the Zionist version of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion asthe 'the Protocols of the Elders of Palestinians' version of Zionist history. (Otherwise known as the intellectually, academically and historically soundly discredited book, "From Time Immemorial".) It's also the Zionist version of "The Turner Diaries", once sported by the likes of your Christian fundamentalist allies Timothy McVeigh. It's similar to the stories of other racists and racist colonizers in other places. You know, there are stories that the Jews of Europe, like you descended from, nct, didn't or don't really exist too, and that you European-descended Jews are relative Johnny-come-lately pretenders. So, Zionist Jews, in turn, are saying that about another people, in trying to deny another people's existence.

But, that argument doesn't matter, as that is merely also a racist argument, well befitting you, nct, as a Zionist racist, taking your place in the illlustrious line behind Southern post-civil war segregationist racists, Nazi racists, South African apartheid racists, and colonial racists, before and afterwards, in general. And you're right: we anti-racist, anti-Zionists, pro-human rights advocates don't like it.

You represent racist Zionists very well nct. (Are all you Zionists on indymedia secretly working as simple-minded racist foils for anit-racist anti-Zionists?)

Nessie: "If you want to read Zionist propaganda, go to a propaganda site. There are more than enough to choose from. "

And there are plenty of other sites that give your stance too. So, applying your rules evenhandedly, for once in your life, you'd have to conclude that the entire SF-IMC site is redundant and therefore purposeless.

From Nessie's New Catechism:

Q: What is Zionist propaganda?

A: Any expression in support of the continued existence of the state of Israel, period, no matter from whom, for what purpose, in what forum. If you don't believe that Israel should immediately be dismantled in the name of "fairness," and you dare suggest so much in SF-IMC, then you are automatically nothing more than a moraly bankrupt Zionist propagandist and Nessie will make funny faces at you. Also, any suggestions that the Palestinian strategy toward statehood since 1948 has been counterproductive in any way to any degree also counts as Zionist propaganda; the difference between Israelis and Palestinians is that Palestinian sins are forgivable misdeeds of individuals, while Israeli sins demonstrate the essentially corrupt and evil nature of anything that has ever come within thirteen feet of a Zi-i-i-ionist.

@%<

Hey, "non-critical thinker"!

I knowww! The American government seems to be the champion of "the Jews"! Why not prevail upon your closest friends (including so many prominent Jews themselves in the U.S. government) to give up a portion of a sparsely populated U.S. state (how about one in the Northwest or the western Midwest or even the desert-like Southwest) as the safest place in the world for "the Jews"? Surrounded and/or protected by two great oceans and directly by the U.S. military, even its ICBM's! You can get your Zionist friends out of that dangerous, 'Jew-hating' Middle East! What do you think your closest U.S. friends and the wonderful American people (we are wonderful, aren't we?) would say, nct, gehrig, ender, scottie, etc? The U.S.: such close and caring friends of "the Jews"! Try it! The U.S. has given "the Jews" everything else!

If you can't ask your closest friends...!

Please expound to me why the US media continually calls Israel "The Jewish State"



Also, throughout history there has been a hatred of the jews wherever they are, can you expound upon this phenomena?

>Please expound to me why the US media continually calls Israel "The Jewish State"

I don't know. Another Jewish friend of mine says that we Jews have pretty much colonized the New York metropolitan area and Sharon once said that we Jews control the U.S. anyway. Sharon seems to think that the U.S. is "the Jewish state" controlled from the capital in Israel. And Israel is often called the U.S.'s 51st state, even by it's friends in our media and government. Why not just move it to the mainland here, safe from those evil Ay-rabs? Even Israel's friends in the media often refer to it as "America's unsinkable aircraft carrier in the Middle East." What do you think Bos?

>Also, throughout history there has been a hatred of the jews wherever they are, can you expound upon this phenomena?

I don't know, there doesn't seem to have been any long-term hatred of any other minorities, like the so-called Untouchables or the so-called Gypsies or the Armenians or the Irish or the Ainu or the Aborigines or the Kurds or the blacks in America (even often disliked by racist Jews) or even other small European and Chinese minorities most people have never even heard of. Especially those long-hated minorities that have been all but wiped out (like the, generally, economically destitute Native Peoples of the Americas). You Zionists are just so ethnocentric that you only think of yourselves (now, as a group, the richest, most powerful minority in the world, in the richest country of the world). What do you think? I sense you have an answer Bos.

Maybe Zionists will champion a state for them too, or at least sections for them in all the Holocaust museums, which has denied places for, or even any mention of, other genocidally hated minorities inside them. (Oh, I forgot: After apartheid South Africa, Turkey is now one of Israel's key allies. I guess Israel and Zionists won't be championing the Armenians or the Kurds, huh?)

>why does Palestine (the country that does not exist) MURDER women and children in schools, shopping centers and churches.

Yeah, they should be more like God's "Chosen People" of Israel (the European people that 'does not exist' and 'who are really the Central Asian Khazars who dispersed into Russia'). Uh-oh!: I guess they are!

(Lot's of Zionist "Palestinian and al-Nakba deniers" on indymedia, huh?)

Those Palestinians kill scores of innocent people at a time and then HIDE LIKE COWARDS from their armored tanks and from their missile-firing fighter aircraft and helicopter gunships miles away, under the pretenses of being a continuing persecuted minority, don't they, fellow Zionists! Not like us "God's Chosen People", isn't that right?

Syntactical clarification:

Those Palestinians kill scores of innocent people at a time and then HIDE LIKE COWARDS from [IN] their armored tanks and from [IN] their missile-firing fighter aircraft and helicopter gunships miles away, under the pretenses of being a continuing persecuted minority, don't they, fellow Zionists! Not like us "God's Chosen People", isn't that right?

Great, here come the anti-semites to rant at jews and hurl obnoxious "chosen people" sarcasm around.

It just goes to show everyone the sort of people who are hiding on this board.

...Aren't we?

Makes the anti-Zionists and other indymedia readers think that we don't really have any, doesn't it? So, like the mental simple-minded sandbox bullies that we are, we resort to nasty name-calling when we are intellectually and morally cornered.

Hi: >"This thread has turned into a total gutter."

hahahaha: "Fucking evil scumbag pieces of shit."

In case you're not sure, that's the anti-Zionists the above Zionist is talking about.

d.d.i.a.z.: "neo-nazis, david duke, white supremecists and other scumbags..."

angie impersonator Zionist: "we will not rest untill we drive evry one of you from the land we want! we will take what ever we like, and act as we please! IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT TOO BAD!"

Zionist attacker (and erstwhile imperonator) of angie: "Have you thought about switching to decaf?"

Hi: "Way to support your [nessie's] islamic terrorist friends."

enemies of the Jews (yes, another Zionist): "I suggest you go to hell..., These scumbag leftists...", and "these fucking scumbags... [his highly articulate, learned and erudite response to anti-Zionist intelllectual arguments]

non-critical thinker: "dear Palestinazi. You don't amount to much more than a rather ignorant asswipe."

And finally...

hahahaha (a Zionist): "One can only wish that nessie's family had been burned in holocaust concentration camps"

Oh, we Zionists are 'too precious' aren't we, verbally?

Wow! What if a non-Jew had said that about any of these Zionist Jews here!

Our wonderful vocabulary and limited arguments are so 'colorful' aren't they?

nct: "I'm much more of a critical thinker than you'd ever be a "Zionist Jew" "

Oy vay! I couldn't have said it better myself! You're even less of a 'critical thinker' than that!

But, most of all, we Zionists just have the HOT HOT HOTS for nessie! Oh, we can't go a day without nessie! It's nessie this and nessie that. In fact, we have the HOTS for all of the most articulate critics of Zionism: Angie, JA, etc. Some of us Zionist guys here are straight, some of us are gay, some of us are bisexual, but all of us Zionist guys here are at least bi-curious when it comes to nessie and JA! We Zionist guys just have the HOTS for all of them. But, like socially clumsy little misfit boys who have retarded verbal skills, who don't know how to otherwise 'hit on' the ones we have the biggest HOTS for, the ones (it turns out) who stand up to us the best, we engage in regular nasty personal attacks against the ones we secretly LOVE the most! And boy, do we have 'A LOVE JONES' for nessie. Watch your goodies, nessie: these Zionist guys are after them!

Then there are we Zionists who, bereft of any effective intellectual and moral arguments whatsoever against other articulate anti-racist anti-Zionists, at last resort to the sincerest form of flattery: impersonation. For this we love Angie the very most (and who wouldn't love Angie), but we also love JA (sorry fellas, but with his intellectual crush on angie, I know he's straight)! Oh, we Zionists guys are down and all over his Mandingo work of art (if you know what I mean), aren't we!

Recap: Hi: "This has turned into a gutter"

We Zionists should know! Eh?

(Of course, none of this really compares to our wonderful, viscious, subhuman nastiness in the Rachel Corrie threads!)


Then there is Scottie's usual petty ignorances (as opposed to the more substantial, elaborate ignorances of Ender, gehrig, Hi, nct, etc., to grace indymedia's threads). Didn't Scottie get so bad that he was renamed "Snottie"?

Scottie: "The basis of the anti jew argument was always leftist."

You mean like Eduard Bernstein, Rosa Luxemburg, Karl Liebknecht, Karl Kautsky, Emma Goldman, Lenni Brenner, and other prominent Jewish leftists, who all vehemently opposed reactionary racist nationalism of any sort, especially Zionism as an immoral reactionary capitulation to anti-Jewish racism, anti-Semitism (which Zionists actively and nastily encouraged to help gain their reactionary racist state)?

non-critical thinker: "fuck off"

Isn't that precious!

You gonna get back to me?

non-critical thinker: "Palestinazi [A NICE RACIST EPITHET FROM SOME ZIONIST JEW WHO WOULD SCREAM "VILE ANTI-SEMITE!," IF ANY NON-JEW SAID "JUDEONAZI"!] - evidently he doesn't care Jews have had a continuous, non-broken presence in the Land of Israel a.k.a Palestine since the destruction of the Jewish Temple 70 AD till this very day."

Well, *that* certainly gives we European Zionist Jews the RIGHT to come back, take over the place, run off, subordinate, and impose a foreign government and nation-state on, and deny the existence of (literally and/or verbally), the hundreds of thousands and/or, eventually, millions of non-Jewish indigenous people in Palestine, doesn't it? An argument that is literally worse than medieval.

non-critical thinker: "Palestinazi isn't aware that prior to the 1880s there had hardly been any influx of Jews to the land from a foreign country"

And *that* certainly means there was never any 20th century repeated, often Zionist-coerced, mass influxes (including illegal immigrations) of European Jews, doesn't it?

Our Zionist logic is impeccable, isn't it!

Now, if we Zionist Jews have that 'right' to a specifically, politcally, legally, and permanently Jewish-dominated nation-state after being mostly GONE for 2,000 years, then why don't the vast majority of the non-Jewish indigenous Arabs have a right to a politically, legally, and permanently multireligious, multiethnic, multidemographic (Palestinian-Muslims, -Christians, -Jews & -others) nation-state after being PRESENT for 2,000 years? Hmmm...?

And where did most of the Israelis come from?

Hi (a Zionist): >"This thread has turned into a total gutter."

non-critical thinker (a Zionist): " increasingly dramatic vocabulary... This slimeball... a pro-"Palestinian" anti-Zio bigot asswipe... "

Such a rich(!), "increasingly dramatic", vocabulary!

Hey, nct, your Zionist cohort is talking about you and your other Zionist ilk, including himself?

See more above:
My, we Zionists are lonnng on ad hominem attacks and short on specific arguments...
by Zionist Jew Monday August 11, 2003 at 01:47 AM


nct: "You're fooling only your like-minded friends"

At last nct confesses, finally captioning the 'substance' of his propaganda post correctly! The rest of us have been trying to tell you Zionists this for untold months on indymedia.

nct: "I've seen the racist epithet "Zionazi"...

Let me TRY to CLUE you in, in the language we intellectually and verbally challenged Zionists employ so well (taken from erudite Zionist articulations just in this thread alone, above):

YOU'RE SO FUCKIN' MENTALLY *SSSLLLOWWW*, YOU RACIST FUCKIN' SCUMBAG FUCKIN' ASSWIPE FUCKIN' EVIL SCUMBAG PIECES OF SHIT FUCKIN' ZIONEONAZI SCUMBAG, THAT YOU *CAN'T* EVEN TELL THE LEXICAL *DIFFERENCE*!!!

...YOU AND YOUR "JEWISH" FUCKIN' RELIGIO-ETHNICALLY SELF-CENTERED SCUMBAG THEOCRATIC AND POLITICAL FUNDAMENTALIST "JEWISH" WHITE-SUPREMACIST EXTREMIST MILITANT SCUMBAG "JEWISH" TERRORIST FRIENDS...!

And..., taken from the Angie impersonator Zionist above:

"IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT TOO BAD!"

YOU "SLIMEBALL", nct!!

TOUCHÉ!!!

(by just wondering Monday August 11, 2003 at 09:46 AM)

"Then there is Scottie's usual petty ignorances (as opposed to the more substantial, elaborate ignorances of Ender, gehrig, Hi, nct, etc., to grace indymedia's threads). Didn't Scottie get so bad that he was renamed "Snottie"?"

You think I havent heard that before? congradulations for thinking it up you guys, no really, its quite an achievement for you.

"Scottie: "The basis of the anti jew argument was always leftist.""

"You mean like Eduard Bernstein, Rosa Luxemburg, Karl Liebknecht, Karl Kautsky, Emma Goldman, Lenni Brenner, and other prominent Jewish leftists, who all vehemently opposed reactionary racist nationalism of any sort, especially Zionism as an immoral reactionary capitulation to anti-Jewish racism, anti-Semitism (which Zionists actively and nastily encouraged to help gain their reactionary racist state)?"

When did I equate anti jew with anti zionist? You are undermining the people you are trying to support. Besides who doesnt oppose reactionary racist nationalism like the palistinian nationalism. But unfortunatly palistinian nationalism is a fact and has to be delt with as such (maybe it will change later if they find their state is unviable or you could force a solution on them but then you creae problems as well as solving them) but I appreciate your concern about it.

Besides that it is not impossible to find an individual who opposes a group to which you could see him belonging.
Therefore the fact that you found an example or 10 or 20 is no proof at all. the other argument "i cant find an example so it must be a conspiricy" would make more sense.

Note Ms Rice in the bush administration since she opposes the democrats should not all blacks oppose the democrats? now does that sound like a stupid argument to you?

Ask the question why where the jews percecuted in WWII and before that? If you list the reasons I expect you will find they are more left than right in their nature.

Listen to what the worst antisemites say - it is not we hate the jews because they are weaker or more criminal or any KKK type arguments (rightist) they are that the jews ae too powerful and making too much money and
too smart (cunning). The same things the people of the right think should be applauded as helping everyone and the people of the left think are threats to equality.

"Note Ms Rice in the bush administration since she opposes the democrats should not all blacks oppose the democrats?"

Is Gary Coleman running as a Democrat? The East Bay Express was saying he'd probably round up the black vote in CA for governor.

So Snobby, is English your second language? Your sentences are kind of messed up.

Thank you for your honesty.

FRED -
"Is Gary Coleman running as a Democrat? The East Bay Express was saying he'd probably round up the black vote in CA for governor. "

I dont know what your point is there.

"So Snobby, is English your second language? Your sentences are kind of messed up."

- speaking of being snobby read your own sentance what exactly are you trying to imply by that?

You gonna get back to me? (Or did you decide to let your 'daddy', non-critical thinker, try and fail to defend your point, going down in flames?)


To Boswell: I gave you the sarcastic answer. The technical answer to your question has been repeated so many times here at indymedia (especially by JA) and, lastly, not too long ago, that I thought you were being sarcastic or polemical in asking your question. Excuse me if you were being serious.

To Snottie: I can understand if Enlgish is not your first or fluent language. But, I can't understand that logic is not your fluent mode of thought in any language, by now. So, I will not bother to respond to your tangled and screwed up reasoning, as I can see that the task would be both endless, pointless and futile. Someone with greater indulgence of you can take on that task. The only reason to argue with Zionists is only to publicly show others how intellectually and morally flawed, and propagandistic, our Zionist's spiels are, to show others all of our polemical tricks and how to deconstruct or demolish them, and to provide others with an articulation as to why what any moral person knows is intuitively wrong (and a racist double-standard) is indeed wrong with the Zionist ideology. But I don't even have the patience to do that with you. Talking to you is like Madame Curie trying to explain radiospectrometry to Fred Flintstone's little boy.

(Normally we Zionists just try to engage in the blind prejudicial double-standards that we have been so conditioned with in the West against so-called 3rd World or non-Western Peoples, or engage in polemical dust blowing and verbal diversion/misdirection/hairsplitting, including idiosyncratic definitions, historical and ethnological minutiae/mythology, and otherwise making shit up as we Zionists go along.)

What point of mine needs clarification.

I did not read all the exchange.

You want to ask me a question - ask a specific one do not assume I read all this thread.

Wow. I just finished reading all your posts on this thread.

You have just got to run for public office. I know that politicians can do precious little to change a society (the media is probably more important), but it is only with people like you (people who will not compromise anti-racist principles no matter how unpopular) at the helm of this country that there might be a chance for a decent future for more than just white western elites.

Most Israelis (Zionists) today were:

1. Born in Israel (not in Europe)
2. Are decedents of Jews that were ethnically cleansed from Arab countries (almost no Jews left in Syria, Saudi-Arabia, Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Yemen - were do you think they all are ?)

3. Those from European ancestors are 2nd and 3rd generation to people who were refugees from the Nazis in the 30's and 40's.

About Palestinians:

Very few of them lived here 500 years ago.
Many Palestinian families today have names such as:
El-Masri (the Egyptian), El-Mougrabi (The Moroccan) etc... This should clue you in were did they came from. Syrians who were brought by the British in the 20s and 30s as manual labor built the port city of Haifa. This is why the Syrian dialect is by Palestinians all over northern Israel today. I can not blame them why they want to remain in Israel and not live in Syria – their life, even under Israel, is better than how they would live under Assad.

There are minority Palestinians who lived here 200 years ago but most came to the country when the economy started to get better as the Zionists developed the country. I am sure the phenomenon of increase economical activity that brings in migrant workers who stay is familiar to many of in California.

I have nothing against this phenomenon. All who call them self Palestinians (no matter were they came from) are welcome to be citizens and return to the Palestinian state to be established. Like wise, all that see them self-part of the Hebrews (the Jewish nation) are welcome to Israel.

2 national identities, 2 states, 1 small geographical area – this will take cooperation to solve the problem not wars.


Work for healin and compromise not to continue and spread hatred and blame.

The Palestinians have compromised enough. Israelis have stolen 78% of their homeland and have even stolen and continue to steal the remaining 22% (settlers have now taken 45% of the remaining 22%).

800,000 Palestinians were evicted from Palestine in 1948. Another 300,000 (along with 160,000 Syrians from the Golan Heights) were evicted in 1967.

Israelis used propaganda well as false flag operations (planting bombs in Jewish neighborhoods in Arab countries) to get Arab Jews to emigrate to Israel. Many left Israel after realizing how racist (white racist) Israeli society really was -- especially against Arabs.

And Israelis constant harping about how Israeli Arabs have so many rights is downright sickening. Israeli Arabs constitute 22% of the Israeli population of 5 million people yet now own less than 3% of the land there because of Israeli confiscations by the Jewish Agency so that land can be used for Jews and Jews only. Palestinians pay an equal amount of taxes but get far worse schools, hospitals, and infrastructure generally (i.e. if they are not kicked out of their homes outright).

Israel is a very racist society. It has just passed a law preventing Arab Israelis from living with their spouses in Israel. This is because Israelis live in morbid fear of the "demographic timebomb" (their own words). As though Arab babies are bombs. Israelis cannot live with another people but instead want all of former Palestine for themselves. Palestinians are made to feel like guests in their own homes. If that is not racist, I don't know what is. And then Israelis have the gall to come on here and proclaim how good Arabs have it in Israel compared to Arab countries. Even under US supported dictators, Arabs have developed a flourishing culture with music videos and fashion, etc. In Israel, they are treated as inferiors.

It is time for the US to switch sides in this conflict and stand with the real people whose existence is in jeopardy: Palestinian Christians and Muslims not Israeli Jews who are mostly from Europe, Russia, and Brooklyn.

Enough with the Zionist racist lines of "a Land for a People for a People without a Land." Or how about this one "Making the desert bloom" -- that's why you need all the bulldozers, isn't it, to make the desert bloom, Israeli style!

I am not going to argue with your lies.

Please refer to my article "Are for justice or for solutions" which was published in April this year.

In this article I point out a simple fact:

Those, among the supporters of the Palestinians, who call for "justice" are people who refuse to compromise. For them peace is the destruction of Israel.

There are many Israeli and Palestinians who would find an accepatable compromise if the incitment would stop.

What the real peace lovers are looking for are solutions not your style of false propeganda.

Oh, I see: you just hit and run. (Not man enough to stick around and face a response.)

(Re: What point - by Ender Monday August 11, 2003 at 09:08 PM)

The real solution to this conflict is for average Americans to wake up to the reality that is Israel and stop subsidizing ethnic cleansing and Apartheid.

This entire conflict would have been solved long ago if it were not for the fact that our tax money is being used to finance every Israeli fantasy of a Greater Israel.

That's all it takes -- for Americans to act fairly. Once that realization dawns on the people here, then real peace with justice will be possible.

"Incitement" is Israeli soldiers killing rioting Palestinian children and settlers stealing what little they have left. Get out of the territories and your so called "incitement" will cease to exist.

BTW, for anyone interested, check out the following Arabic video to get an idea of what real modern Arabs are like (not just how they are portrayed in the movies and news):
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/08/1634400.php

You are write I am not man enough.

But I am woman enough if you just be specific enough to tell me what it is you want me to respond.

"But, I can't understand that logic is not your fluent mode of thought in any language, by now. So, I will not bother to respond to your ... reasoning."

You never tried. Strange that you would spend so much time saying that you dont have time to say anything. I m guessing that your standard reaction is to try to be dismissive when you dont know how to defend your point.

Speaking of logic on what objective grounds would you like to compare yourself with me? Or are you just being ignorant?

"""">>>"Get out of the territories and your so called "incitement" will cease to exist."<<<
Anyone who subscribes to this point of view is either an outright liar or gullible, as "Palestinian" incitement peddles the "Palestinian" aspiration which is to ethnically cleanse the Jews from all the "territories", namely also Israel proper. Yeah, get out of Israel proper too and the incitement will be no more."""""
Depends what justice means
by Critical Thinker Tuesday August 12, 2003 at 01:28 AM

But if the Palestinians had their State, Israel could easily guard and control the pre 1967 border and if they wanted to build a wall on the Green line it would be just fine....
If once the Palestinians had their State (There goes that Road Map again), and they did not live in peace there but tried to attack Israel, Israel would have just cause to fight back with its superior Military and the U.S. would have just cause to help them. The Arab population could no longer say the Palestinian are just fighting for their land and freedom, Because they would already have they State, Land, and Freedom..

"""">>>"The real solution to this conflict is for average Americans to wake up to the reality that is Israel and stop subsidizing ethnic cleansing and Apartheid. "<<<
I agree.
All average Americans must realize Israel is by far morally superior to the "Palestinians" and stop letting the Administration pour money into Arafat's coffers as he uses these funds for arms acquisition, hate propaganda promoting ideas of ethnically cleansing Jews of the disputed territories and Israel proper and setting up an Apartheid state which would discriminate against any minority within it."""

Since Israel has all kinds of WMD, For Simple easy to understand Details:
CLICK HERE > http://www.msnbc.com/news/wld/graphics/strategic_israel_dw.htm

To have a fair fight should not the Palestinians be allowed to have some military weapons??

In the OLD OLDE Days if two men were having a duel would one man have a gun and the other one stone??
Some fair Duel???

Of course I do not think they should fight at all and the Palestinian People just be allowed to have their State on 22% of what is TODAY---Israel, West Bank and Gaza.....

how can you cut and paist this stuff and not laugh at the sheer obserdity of the contense.


or is this somesort of joke?

fuck the "two-state solution".

how about a "one-state half-way house?"

make all of official Israel, plus the West Bank and Gaza, into a unified political entity, with NO ethno-/religio-supremacist strictures.

call it Palesreal.

give it ten years and a multi-ethnic/religious working class could emerge that would scare the shit out of ruling classes--and bigots--throughout the region.

this is the only transitional "solution" that's in accordance with anti-capitalist and anti-clerical ideals.

This Article and comments is getting to long....
We are talking in circles...
I want freedom and a State for the Palestinian People..
I am not the only one therefore the Road Map.
And I am not exactly sure of what you are really looking for..
Do you want One Country, Israel, West Bank and Gaza as one Country?? maybe with a neutral name, maybe the Country of Seaside where all the people now living in Israel, West Bank and Gaza are citizens of Seaside have equal rights in every way, therefore a truly Democratic State, that even has a neutral name???

the Palestinians room. But in 1970, Arafat tried to depose King Hussein in a coup - which failed. King Hussein's army pushed out the Palestinians, forcibly. (10,20k dead)

Then Arafat went to Lebanon, and started the civil war there to turn it into a Palestinian homeland. 100k Lebanese died, if I recall correctly.

FWIW. Palestinians just don't seem to make good neighbors.

Critical thinker
Are you saying that the palistinians should be moved out of israel and gaza and westbank to Jordan?
I dont think that plan will go down very well with anyone besides it makes you look much too much like the people you are trying to stop.
Or are you making a different claim?

Well Critical Thinker, I do not know what to think....

So that the Palestinians do not have to lose more of their land and more of their homes and more of their fruit trees and water, etc, etc,, Maybe the whole of the West Bank should become part of Jordan and Palestine can be a State in Jordan, just like New, York is a state in the U.S.

and Gaza should become part of Egypt and Gaza can be a State in Egypt, just like Maryland is a state in the U.S.

Therefore the Israels Border back to pre 1967 and The superior Israeli Military can Guard and Control these two Borders and live in Peace and, end to the Occupation...and let the Palestinian People have their freedom...BUT SOMETHING LIKE THIS IS WAY TO GOOD TO COME TRUE.....

ANGEL - sounds good to me.
(although there might be a little bit of land to reflect ethnic geography.)

I wasn't clear enough in my quick post yesterday. I knew something was terribly wrong when the miserable "critical thinker" tried to incorporate my views into his.

A precondition for any unified entity would have to be that all Israeli settlements in the West Bank and Gaza be scrapped.

Upon the establishment of a unified entity an ambitious policy of reparations to poor and dispossessed Palestineans would have to be enacted.

There's obviously a lot more to it then this, but what I was trying to get at is that a "two-state solution" is a bogus, and inherently reactionary, non-solution.

The reason that Israeli rulers would resist unification along the lines that I have faintly drawn is that it would pose a mortal challenge to zionism's democratic pretensions.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

"critical thinker" is one of the most nauseating poster's i've seen on this board in awhile. s/he piously suggests that the Palestineans should undergo "denazi-ification" while in the same breath advocating the wholesale expulsion of a already dispossessed people. what a despicable scum you are, "critical thinker".

[Un]Critical Thinker: "Let me give the floor to another person who has already explained this elsewhere (I don't know him)"

Translation: He sits next to me in the ADL office.

if you think making Jordan and Egypt--both dictatorial US clients, with relatively good relations with Israel-- more democratic will portend great things for Israel's settler state, you're a complete and utter fool, "critical thinker". (i already knew you were a scum-bag, but now I know a little more about you.)

The Israeli and American ruling classes' have far more to lose from Mubarak or little boy Hussein (or the House of Saud for that matter) getting smashed than does the average citizen of any of those countries.

since when does the US ruling class care about empowering the people of the middle east? since when has "democracy" been anything more than a fig-leaf for pro-US tyrannies? how many ruthless dictators and despots has the US cozied up with in the Muslim and Arab world?

the US had a nice cordial relationship with Saddam Hussein going back to the late 50's, and as i never tire repeating, supported him through the 80s, up until AND AFTER he gassed the Kurds. but now the US ruling class really cares. ha!

"Even if a de-Nazification of "Palestinians" is possible within the disputed territories, the fact still remains another state west to the Jordan river won't be viable for a number of reasons.
Let me give the floor to another person who has already explained this elsewhere (I don't know him):"

- Oh I certainly agree that a palistinian state in itself is not viable. but it is not very viable as a resisting territory under israel either. as in angles suggestion above its most viable option is as a state of egypt and jordan or whoever else will take it. This would not be as a right of any sort but more as a practical solution to avoid the current situation where the PLO doesnt have the power to keep the promises that it has to make in order for it to be a credible negotiating partner with israel.

"As far as Egypt goes, I recall Mubarak has made it clear he wants nothing to do with the Gaza strip and proceeded to say it's Israel's problem."

And that probably ruins that Idea.
but maybe pressure should be applied. the PLO seems helpless and israel can't solve the problem all by itself.
But there should be some option besides "ethnic cleansing" which actually translates into "bloody battle" and israel as a international outcast.

The issue is Anne Gwyeen and her ties and lies.

Yesterday Anne said this:

"No Israeli has ever saw a palestinian with a gun. All Isarelis seen by palestinians are israelities with guns"

Additionaly when discussing "colective punishemnt" she said : These rae not attacks these are retalitions. She was refering to the suicide bombing. She is so twisted that she can not even tell that she justifies colective punishment in the same sentnce in which she tries to condem them.

I guess for Ann G. all that matters is who does the act.

If it is Israeli solidier that kills a terrorist it is an ilegal "colective punishment" but if it is an Israeli civilian that is killed it is a "justified reltalation"

Justice: "Many [Arab Jews] left Israel after realizing how racist (white racist) Israeli society really was -- especially against Arabs."

Actually, the strongest anti-Zionists I've ever met are *ISRAELI JEWS*(!) who were born in Israel, or grew up in Israel, and who realized just how racist and morally sick Israeli society and Zionism is - and even how patriarchal and sexist it was compared to other Western societies - AND THEY LEFT OUT OF SHEER MORAL DISGUST!

The next most strong anti-Zionists I've ever met are from among *AMERICAN JEWS* who are absolutely disgusted and hate what Israeli Jews are doing to another people - and how other Western, especially American, Jews are generally supporting it.

A much older anti-Zionist Israeli expatriate Jew repeatedly tells me (he's trying to make me his historical repository since I am an activist) how different immigrant classes of Jews, especially Arab Jews, in addition to Palestinians, were historically exploited or heavily discriminated against by Israeli Ashkenazi Jews. He fought the Nazis in the resistance in WWII. He said that the Ashkenazi Israeli Zionist political leaders even exploited Holocaust survivors, then recently out of the camps. He said that the Israeli state and its head politicians had a whole plan of how different groups of Jews and non-Jews would be exploited (and now, otherwise, immigrant labor from poor Asian countries like the Philippines). He claims that there is NOTHING that any Jew with a conscience can do in Israel but get out. He said that Israeli society is too morally corrupted and under the political control of degenerates. He wouldn't even try to talk to the Zionists here in indymedia: he would consider them a morally lost cause. One anti-Zionist American Jew once exclaimed to me, "I don't talk to Zionists! I wanna *shoot* 'em!" Another anti-Zionist Jew - condemning Israeli racism - once exclaimed to me, "Palestinians are the niggers of Israel!" I know another Jew who even SUPPORTS THE PALESTINIAN ARMED STRUGGLE against the Israeli military and against Israeli military targets, including Israeli soldiers! (He does lament, however, that innocent Israeli Jewish children and unknowing people, like Russian immigrants, get killed in suicide bombings.) I know other Jews like that too. Of course, the majority of even refugee Jews (and, in recent years, Russian Jews) preferred to go NOT to Israel, but to the U.S., Western Europe or Canada, and often try to use Israel as ‘the back door’ or transit way station.

Both these groups of Jewish people include politically very progressive Jews, Jews who come from families of high repute, Jews who have/had highly respected rabbis in their families, Jews who fought in the anti-Nazi resistance or in WWII, and Jews who are Holocaust survivors or are descendents of Holocaust survivors. They don't just call Zionist racists - they call Zionists “DAMN RACISTS!”

Einstein said that if Israeli Jews go into Palestine and oppress another people, then Jews would have learned NOTHING in their 2,000-year experience in the diaspora and that, thus, Jews would deserve whatever negatively happened to them as a result. Wow! (You can easily find the exact quote in the new book, "Einstein in Berlin", among other places, I'm sure.)

...He's the Jewish, anti-Palestinian anti-Semite version analog of whomever wrote the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

NCT, why don't you write 'the Protocols of the Elders of Palestinians', to have in addition to your ever-handheld anti-Palestinian racist trash book (totally discreditd by Palestinian and Jewish academics) "From Time Immemorial" that you draw all your racist Palestinian-denier material from (á la Golda Meir's, "There is no such thing as a Palestinian", like neo-Nazis say, "There is no such thing as a Jew," yet both, respectively, passionately hate Palestinians/Jews)?

Why don't you just post a copy of From Time Immemorial on sf.indymedia and be done with it, instead of quoting endlessly from your own copy of that racist book? Then you can just, at the most, refer us to page & paragraph numbers and save yourself a lot of typing, huh?

Because that's what you are (like Zionism) -- a dead-end -- intellectually and morally.

Moral people, including Jews, are starting to reveal so much about Zionism that, like apartheid white South Africans, Afrikaners, used to have to do in the West, Zionists will have to keep their political ideological identification a semi-secret and hold their heads down in decent, moral society. Already, in the Bay Area, Zionists sort of have to do that. Why now, they are even trying to abandon the very term!

(RE by Ender Tuesday August 12, 2003 at 12:48 PM)

You're not even woman enough!

There are many honorable Jews who stand against injustice and do what they can to change it. I have a great deal of respect for these people.

Those Israelis who are racist (not all of them of course) are little different from their arrogant counterparts in South Africa or among the Central and Latin American right wingers. The way in which they do differ is that they use their historical victim status as a shield to defend themselves against evidence of their worst crimes and to demonize their opponents and victims as Nazis. I don't know of anyone else that does this (or at least get away with it). Also, they differ in that they get more support from our government and from our tax money than any other chauvinists on the planet (probably combined).

That being said, it is true that a good number of Israelis and American Jews (including some who post here) are great people who oppose injustice wherever they see it.

As far as suicide bombings go, I think it is a retarded strategy though I can understand it. It's stupid because it often does kill innocents. I can understand it though because from their point of view, all Israelis living in Israel (or the Occupied Territories) are guilty of robbing them of what was once all their land. And this continues to this day along with plenty of Palestinian innocents being killed in the process. From their point of view, they are retaliating for the Palestinian civilians killed as Israel busily expands its borders. Historically, the threat of retaliation has been a human norm (e.g. mutually assured destruction which prevented the cold war from turning hot). But in this case, Palestinians' targetting of Israeli civilians in Israel is divorced (in the media) from the much greater Israeli killing of Palestinian civilians in Palestine making it seem as though it is unprovoked terrorism (from the Palestinian perspective it is retaliation intended to make it expensive for Israelis to keep killing them with impunity).

Palestinians often do target soldiers and tanks, but when they do, Israelis open up on Palestinian civilians so this cannot be done without endangering the lives of Palestinians when Israeli soldiers are in their towns. Jenin is an example of this.

From filmographer James B. Longley:
"What we were witnessing was the tail-end of a major clash that had broken out the day before in the
late afternoon. Apparently, some Palestinian gunmen had...begun taking pot-shots at Israeli
soldiers in the nearby army post. The Israelis, who have the entire Khan Younis refugee camp ringed
about with fortified machine-gun nests, returned fire – heavy machine-gun fire and tank shells -- AND
DIDN’T STOP RETURNING FIRE UNTIL THE NEXT DAY. [emphasis added] The Israeli army later denied firing tank shells into the
refugee camp – but I have videotape of the shells detonating on the road that evening."
http://www.littleredbutton.com/gas_interviews/interviews.pdf

Also, Israeli soldiers killed by Palestinians are sometimes referred to as civilians in the media (one need only recall the twelve "Jewish worshippers" killed last year who turned out to be Israeli soldiers, and this was not the only case).

Anyway, to explain is not to justify and to understand is not to condone. Surely, intelligence agencies (like the CIA or Mossad) who may be antagonistic to Palestinians certainly must also understand why they do what they do -- probably more so than any of us as they are privy to information we don't have access to.

"Critical thinker" may derive some great satisfaction in insisting that the Palestineans aren't a coherent, historical people, but it doesn't change the fact that approximately 750,000 Arabs, whose descendents identify as Palestinean, were driven out of their homes and land with the inception of Israel. Nor does it change the fact that millions of PALESTINEANS today live in abject conditions under the boot of the Israeli state. Israel steals Palestinean water and land and builds suburban fortresses with lush green grass looking over its victims' destitution and pathetic scum-bags like the misnamed "critical thinker" accuse
the Palestineans of harboring nazi tendencies. It's absolutely mind-boggling.
___________________________________________________________________________________

In response to my earlier statement that the US had a nice, cordial relationship with Saddam Hussein going back to the late 50's, and supported him through the 80's up until and AFTER he gassed the Kurds, "critical thinker" has this to say:

<<Geez, you are far more pathetic than I reckoned!!
Iraq was a monarchy up to 1958. Saddam became Iraq's ruler only in 1980!>>

yes, you idiot, Iraq was a (British and US backed) monarchy until 1958, at which point it was overthrown and Qasim took over. That's when the US' relationship with Hussein began. Hussein was on the CIA payroll as a hit-man and attempted, without success, to kill Qasim in 1959. In 1963, the Ba'athists launched a coup against Qasim with assistance from the US/CIA. Hussein at this time was rising within the Ba'ath apparatus while, like so many brutal scum before and after him, acting as a "CIA asset." He ascended to top rank in 1979, and sealed a close relationship with the Reagan Administration in 1983. This alliance continued until the US' erstwhile ally invaded the Kuwaiti Corporation, at which point the US ruling class got religion and began to "care" about the Iraqi people. Read on for details:

Exclusive: Saddam key in early CIA plot
By Richard Sale
UPI Intelligence Correspondent
From the International Desk
Published 4/10/2003

U.S. forces in Baghdad might now be searching high and low for Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein, but in the past Saddam was seen by U.S. intelligence services as a bulwark of anti-communism and they used him as their instrument for more than 40 years, according to former U.S. intelligence diplomats and intelligence officials.

United Press International has interviewed almost a dozen former U.S. diplomats, British scholars and former U.S. intelligence officials to piece together the following account. The CIA declined to comment on the report.

While many have thought that Saddam first became involved with U.S. intelligence agencies at the start of the September 1980 Iran-Iraq war, his first contacts with U.S. officials date back to 1959, when he was part of a CIA-authorized six-man squad tasked with assassinating then Iraqi Prime Minister Gen. Abd al-Karim Qasim.

In July 1958, Qasim had overthrown the Iraqi monarchy in what one former U.S. diplomat, who asked not to be identified, described as "a horrible orgy of bloodshed."

According to current and former U.S. officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity, Iraq was then regarded as a key buffer and strategic asset in the Cold War with the Soviet Union. For example, in the mid-1950s, Iraq was quick to join the anti-Soviet Baghdad Pact which was to defend the region and whose members included Turkey, Britain, Iran and Pakistan.

Little attention was paid to Qasim's bloody and conspiratorial regime until his sudden decision to withdraw from the pact in 1959, an act that "freaked everybody out" according to a former senior U.S. State Department official.

Washington watched in marked dismay as Qasim began to buy arms from the Soviet Union and put his own domestic communists into ministry positions of "real power," according to this official.

The domestic instability of the country prompted CIA Director Allan Dulles to say publicly that Iraq was "the most dangerous spot in the world."

In the mid-1980s, Miles Copeland, a veteran CIA operative, told UPI the CIA had enjoyed "close ties" with Qasim's ruling Baath Party, just as it had close connections with the intelligence service of Egyptian leader Gamel Abd Nassar. In a recent public statement, Roger Morris, a former National Security Council staffer in the 1970s, confirmed this claim, saying that the CIA had chosen the authoritarian and anti-communist Baath Party "as its instrument."

According to another former senior State Department official, Saddam, while only in his early 20s, became a part of a U.S. plot to get rid of Qasim. According to this source, Saddam was installed in an apartment in Baghdad on al-Rashid Street directly opposite Qasim's office in Iraq's Ministry of Defense, to observe Qasim's movements.

Adel Darwish, Middle East expert and author of "Unholy Babylon," said the move was done "with full knowledge of the CIA," and that Saddam's CIA handler was an Iraqi dentist working for CIA and Egyptian intelligence. U.S. officials separately confirmed Darwish's account.
Darwish said that Saddam's paymaster was Capt. Abdel Maquid Farid, the assistant military attaché at the Egyptian Embassy who paid for the apartment from his own personal account. Three former senior U.S. officials have confirmed that this is accurate.

The assassination was set for Oct. 7, 1959, but it was completely botched. Accounts differ. One former CIA official said that the 22-year-old Saddam lost his nerve and began firing too soon, killing Qasim's driver and only wounding Qasim in the shoulder and arm. Darwish told UPI that one of the assassins had bullets that did not fit his gun and that another had a hand grenade that got stuck in the lining of his coat.

"It bordered on farce," a former senior U.S. intelligence official said. But Qasim, hiding on the floor of his car, escaped death, and Saddam, whose calf had been grazed by a fellow would-be assassin, escaped to Tikrit, thanks to CIA and Egyptian intelligence agents, several U.S. government officials said.

Saddam then crossed into Syria and was transferred by Egyptian intelligence agents to Beirut, according to Darwish and former senior CIA officials. While Saddam was in Beirut, the CIA paid for Saddam's apartment and put him through a brief training course, former CIA officials said. The agency then helped him get to Cairo, they said.

One former U.S. government official, who knew Saddam at the time, said that even then Saddam "was known as having no class. He was a thug -- a cutthroat."

In Cairo, Saddam was installed in an apartment in the upper class neighborhood of Dukki and spent his time playing dominos in the Indiana Café, watched over by CIA and Egyptian intelligence operatives, according to Darwish and former U.S. intelligence officials.
One former senior U.S. government official said: "In Cairo, I often went to Groppie Café at Emad Eldine Pasha Street, which was very posh, very upper class. Saddam would not have fit in there. The Indiana was your basic dive."

But during this time Saddam was making frequent visits to the American Embassy where CIA specialists such as Miles Copeland and CIA station chief Jim Eichelberger were in residence and knew Saddam, former U.S. intelligence officials said.

Saddam's U.S. handlers even pushed Saddam to get his Egyptian handlers to raise his monthly allowance, a gesture not appreciated by Egyptian officials since they knew of Saddam's American connection, according to Darwish. His assertion was confirmed by former U.S. diplomat in Egypt at the time.

In February 1963 Qasim was killed in a Baath Party coup. Morris claimed recently that the CIA was behind the coup, which was sanctioned by President John F. Kennedy, but a former very senior CIA official strongly denied this.

"We were absolutely stunned. We had guys running around asking what the hell had happened," this official said.

But the agency quickly moved into action. Noting that the Baath Party was hunting down Iraq's communists, the CIA provided the submachine gun-toting Iraqi National Guardsmen with lists of suspected communists who were then jailed, interrogated, and summarily gunned down, according to former U.S. intelligence officials with intimate knowledge of the executions.

Many suspected communists were killed outright, these sources said. Darwish told UPI that the mass killings, presided over by Saddam, took place at Qasr al-Nehayat, literally, the Palace of the End.

A former senior U.S. State Department official told UPI: "We were frankly glad to be rid of them. You ask that they get a fair trial? You have to get kidding. This was serious business."
A former senior CIA official said: "It was a bit like the mysterious killings of Iran's communists just after Ayatollah Khomeini came to power in 1979. All 4,000 of his communists suddenly got killed."

British scholar Con Coughlin, author of "Saddam: King of Terror," quotes Jim Critchfield, then a senior Middle East agency official, as saying the killing of Qasim and the communists was regarded "as a great victory." A former long-time covert U.S. intelligence operative and friend of Critchfield said: "Jim was an old Middle East hand. He wasn't sorry to see the communists go at all. Hey, we were playing for keeps."

Saddam, in the meantime, became head of al-Jihaz a-Khas, the secret intelligence apparatus of the Baath Party.

The CIA/Defense Intelligence Agency relation with Saddam intensified after the start of the Iran-
Iraq war in September of 1980. During the war, the CIA regularly sent a team to Saddam to deliver battlefield intelligence obtained from Saudi AWACS surveillance aircraft to aid the effectiveness of Iraq's armed forces, according to a former DIA official, part of a U.S. interagency intelligence group.

This former official said that he personally had signed off on a document that shared U.S. satellite intelligence with both Iraq and Iran in an attempt to produce a military stalemate. "When I signed it, I thought I was losing my mind," the former official told UPI.

A former CIA official said that Saddam had assigned a top team of three senior officers from the Estikhbarat, Iraq's military intelligence, to meet with the Americans.
According to Darwish, the CIA and DIA provided military assistance to Saddam's ferocious February 1988 assault on Iranian positions in the al-Fao peninsula by blinding Iranian radars for three days.

The Saddam-U.S. intelligence alliance of convenience came to an end at 2 a.m. Aug. 2, 1990, when 100,000 Iraqi troops, backed by 300 tanks, invaded its neighbor, Kuwait. America's one-time ally had become its bitterest enemy.
Copyright © 2001-2003 United Press International

hey, "critical thinker", you hysterical fraud, why don't you address my retort to your lame-ass self?

still maintain the US had no relations with Hussein going back to the 50's? or was he a syrian too way back then?

LOOKS LIKE AARON STOMPED ANOTHER MUDHOLE IN YOUR ASS!!

Look who's talking! You're such a clown!
by Critical Thinker Thursday August 14, 2003 at 02:22 AM:

"Geez, you are far more pathetic than I reckoned!!"

When are you going to answer aaron?

I understand how aaron feels. One almost feels like one needs a shower (maybe a couple showers in a row!) just after reading more than two or three of these Zionists posts (especially nct's, ender's, and gehrigs's longer ones) and, especially, after verbally interacting with them. You can get trichinosis just dealing with them.

nct: "The "Zionist Jew" fake is completely hysterical by now."

Nct's got 'a God complex'. S/he thinks that just by merely proclaiming something (including his/her own moniker), everybody else will ipso facto think it's true. (Do you wave your hand, miracle-like, in an arc when you do that, nct?) And why are "hysterical" and "rants", like with your right-wing Zionist friend David Horowitz, Zionists favorite repetitive attack words. Is that supposed to make the rest of us cringe? Can't Zionists come up with new polemical slurs? Don't you think that your trite repetitive slurs lose their meaning if everyone Zionists disagree with is "hysterical" and "ranting"? Stop boring us with the same old same old.

AND *STOP* REGULARLY DOUBLE POSTING! I KNOW ZIONISTS CAN'T WAIT TO GET RID OF THE REST OF THE PALESTINIANS, BUT YOU COULD AT LEAST WAIT A FEW MINUTES FOR YOUR ZIONIST PROPAGANDA TO BE POSTED BY THE SERVER, since, unlike in Zionist media/publications, 'we' actually let you comment here!

Speaking of Zionist propaganda...

nct: "...disputed territories..."

You're behind the lexical curve, nct. Even Ariel Sharon now admits (in a speech he recently gave) they they are "Occupied Territories".

nct: "...quoting from "From Time Immemorial". I haven't done that. I don't need to quote from books..."

So, you're just a natural-born racist, huh?

nct: " From Time Immemorial has not been "totally discredited". "

Yeah, and neither has the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, or Mein Kampf, or the Turner Diaries.

nct: "there was no Palestinian people"

Yeah, and there are no more Jews too; they are now really the Khazars.

But, you know what, nct?: Morally, it doesn't matter WHAT the people of Palestine called themselves - or, indeed, what Palestine was called.

Without a doubt (are you going to dispute this too?) the % of Arab Jews there was a tiny % ( less than 7% in the early 1900's) and they were looked down upon - to say the least - by white European Jews who could be just as racist as any other European whites vis-à-vis the non-European World, even against non-European Jews. In 1948, due to huge influxes of (often illegal immigrant) European Jews, the figure grew to 30% (who were given 55-56% of the land in Palestine by other white powers in the UN).

But, none of this morally matters. It doesn't matter what the Arabs (Muslims and Christians) were called. It doesn't matter what Palestine was called. It doesn't matter that there were a few Arab Jews there. All that mattered was that the nearly 1 million people (let's call them Arabs, okay nct?) who were living in their homes and on their land in what is called present-day Israel HAD A MORAL RIGHT TO LIVE THERE without Jews from another continent - Europe - coming to ethnically cleanse them (through systematic dispossession or massacres) from the land, and set up a racist (anyone can find the quotes of the Zionist iconic pioneers, let alone the blatant verbal racism of today's religious Jewish settlers) Jewish-supremacist state with the help of their white imperialist allies. And your quibbling over people names, and playing with dates and country names, doesn't morally change that. Period.

nct: "evidently he doesn't care Jews have had a continuous, non-broken presence in the Land of Israel a.k.a Palestine since the destruction of the Jewish Temple 70 AD till this very day."

You're damn right! Not even that figleaf of a few Arab Jews in Palestine provides a justifiable, moral pretext for Jews from Europe to go to Palestine and ruthlessly, brutally, and even semi-genocidally, drive off the majority Arab population and take it over. What if everyone tried to use that "ancient homeland" argument to go claim another land? Jews could use the "continuous presence" and "ancient presence" argument in Europe too, since they lived there for 2,000 years! NO, people don't get to go claim land because they claim that their ancestors had a country within it 2,000 years ago - promised "by God" 5,000 years ago. I was just speaking with an anti-Zionist Jew tonight who said that, "Nowhere else in the world would that argument fly, except that Zionists had the help of two imperial white powers, especially the U.S.!"

nct: "Though the main problem here is you keep...resort[ing] to additional puerile, primitive...arguments"

nct: "...Nazi bigots on Pal-IMC...; ...As for the jackass...; ...fuck off, Palestinazi...; ...bigot asswipe..."

Puerile? Primitive? I'd say so! (Zionists are so mentally primitive that they don't even realize that they engage in the very behavior that they accuse others of. The most serious case of mass psychological self-projection I have ever witnessed.)

nct: "I suggest the antizio bigot fake set up camp on Pal-IMC..."

As I said before, I thought that Zionists claimed that ALL of Indymedia was Pal-IMC.

nct: "You probably are unaware, or rather overlook, that when the "Palestinians" were given well drilling permits as stipulated by the accords, they by far exceeded the reasonable quotas, stealing water from Israel."

Zionists ought to do more comedy - employing that famous Jewish comic sense of irony! ["Colonialism is the fraud that tries to make the wolf look like the lamb and the lamb look like the wolf." --Malcolm X ] So, now the colonized and displace 3rd World people are "stealing" water from the white colonizers who stole it to begin with! Typical Euopean white settler-colonialist mentality. The same as everywhere that European white "we-own-everything-we-want" settlers went.

Talk about hypocrisy. As far as water is concerned, Israeli "settlements" steal all the water they want while Palestinians are prevented from building their own pumps, often have water stations destroyed, and are not allowed to irrigate their crops. All this while a handful of Jewish settlers have enough water for swimming pools.

A cursory glance shows the arrival big time of "Critical Thinker" (a misnomer if ever there were one) who seems as frenzied as Hi and his many aliases. I remember one or more of his comments were directed to me, no less, back when KL was lord and master (in his own mind) here on our beloved SF Indymedia. From his prattle here, it will appear that I can expect to hear more from him when I'm back again. Sigh. It never ends, does it???

Another glance led me to read down through what a "Zionist Jew" had to say, and, hell, what have we here??? A person with INTELLIGENCE!!! Wow! I can't wait to get back to my own computer next week so I can comment on this person's posts in detail. It's always such a joy to come across someone with intellect AND a sense of humor! I love the 'nct" bit! So very appropriate! Way to go, "Zionist Jew".

I also note with annoyance that someone is still out there finding it necessary to use my name. The real Angie, me, cannot believe that someone has so little to occupy his or her mind that this is what he or she does for entertainment. I pity him/her.

It's also great to see Nessie's many intelligent comments in this particular thread!

And, of course, I note the fanatics are still yelling and screaming as per the norm. I expect when they reach the grand ole twilight of their years they will still be ranting and raving about their beloved terrorist state!.

Incidentally, Angel, don't let the likes of 'nct' and his pals deter you from writing your beliefs.

And until I'm either back at my own computer or elsewhere, I hope you're all well and happy. I am.

Angie

As an Israeli left winger I am proud to support the right of the Palestinian to a state free from occupation.

I hope (for their sake) that it would not turn into a liberia with armed gangs fighting each other.

At the same toen I support the right of the Jewish / Hebrew people to a state. This is what zionism is.

you support the right of Zionists to live on Eighty percent of the ancestral land of Palestine yet the Palestinians are meant to live on the remainder 22 percent.
your spirit of generosity is surpassed only by your blatant lack of Sense of honor and justice.

It is not about "generousity" and I never claim I am.

Did the Palestinian got a bad deal - of course they did.

They were offered to get the eastern part of Palestine in exchnage for giving the westrn part for the jews but they refused and JOrdan took over the part they refused.

They were offered half of what was left and they refused again. (36-39)

They were offered 45% of the land (and Israel would get the 55% of which most was the negev desert by they refused again.

Every time they refused they opened a war killed many Israelis but at the end Israel hand was on top and the Palestinian suffered.

As long as Palestinians continue this "all or nothing" wars they will loose.

People like you fgf, who use false historical data to argue for "justice" are just helping those whop want to avoid compromise.

It is not about justice it is not about fairness - both sides are unjust and unfair. It is about giving the 10,000,000 (Palestinian and Israelis) a future without violence, It will not be solved by Ethnic Cleansing.

In the places that Israelis live there should be Israel.
In the places that palestinian now live there should be Palestine. (This mean the settlers will have to go back to israel) - This is Zionism: Support for the homeland of the jewish people.

non-critical thinker: "Why does the above [Zionist Jew] even pretend to engage in a civil debate with me? I've got nothing more to say to him."

TRANSLATION: 'Zionist Jew has got my non-critical ass (intellectually and morallly, as if I knew what that meant) so tight in a corner that my ass has a right angle now! He's got my ass (intellectually and morally) so tight in a corner that I can't get it out! Zionist Jew has my ass so tight in a corner that I've got nothing else to say, because I CAN'T THINK of anything else to say that could get my ass out of this corner where it's wedged and stuck!!

Zionist Jew has shown the utter ridiculousness of my "ancient presence" argument or the "God promised us" argument or any of our other patently silly Zionist propaganda arguments. And I hate the way s/he reveals our Zionist Jews' utter moral hypocrisy! You see it's OKAY when WE Zionist Jews do bad stuff, but it's NOT okay when OTHERS do stuff WE don't like! We Zionist Jews claim a monopoly on suffering, holocausts, and the monopolisitic right to eternal victimhood status even though we're the richest, most well-educated, most powerful ethnic minority in the richest, (well obviously not most educated), most powerful nation on earth! Oh, woe is us! And we absolutely control U.S. foreign policy in the region of our own nation-state and force U.S. federal politicians (if they want to stay in office in our symbiotic relationship) to hand over billions in American tax dollars every year, year-after-year, to our Jewish nation-state!

We Zionist Jews usually like to engage others in dust storms and swirls of back-&-forth minutiae, like who is what and where is what and what name is what, but he just goes to the root of the issue and says that NONE of that matters - that we didn' t have a right to forcefully displace, eventually, millions of human beings and their families from their homes (just as we Jews were often forcefully displaced), no matter *what* they were called or *what* the land was called. This just sweeps away all the micrometic arguments that I learned in Zionist propaganda school! And I just hate it everytime he makes fun of us so-called "Jews" by referring to us as the Khazars everytime I say (so-called) "Palestinians". And for another example of our blind Zionist hypocrisy, see my following quote:'

non-critical thinker: "Why does the above [Zionist Jew] even pretend to engage in a CIVIL debate with me?"

non-critical thinker: : "...Nazi bigots on Pal-IMC...; ...As for the jackass...; ...fuck off, Palestinazi...; ...bigot asswipe..."

and finally, non-critical thinker: "...butt hole"

non-critical thinker: 'Why isn't Zionist Jew more like *ME*!? He *pretends* not to be like me, but I know that all we Zionist Jews, no matter even if other Zionist Jews 'graciously' pretend to be more liberal, are really all alike underneath. (We're ALL Jewish-supremacists and we ALL want to keep as much of Palestinian land as we can get away with). Does Zionist Jew pretend to be so uppity that s/he can't descend into language on my own level? I guess his/her arguments haven't failed him/her yet.'

Zionist Jew (cut&paste from my prior post): "Zionists are so mentally primitive that they don't even realize that they engage in the very behavior that they accuse others of. The most serious case of mass psychological self-projection I have ever witnessed."

You see what I mean?

non-critical thinker: 'In other words my very own moniker is a prime example of that famous Jewish comic irony!'

nct: "This site's server is much slower than that of Pal-Indy's, which uploads postings immediately. [Excuses, excuses, because we Zionist Jews want *EVERYTHING* - more speed, more land, more water for our lawns, swimming pools and water slides, *no* Palestinians - AND RIGHT AWAY!! And remember, "Israel Wants Peace!": a peace of this, a peace of that, peace by peace, until we have *EVERYTHING* in Palestine!!] "

Re Pal-Indy's servers speed... That's because the Palestinian posters know that, right after posting, they better get away FAST, before the state of Israel and its so-called "Jews" (right nct?) trace the poster down through their computer and send a missile into the building that some Palestinian is posting from, killing 15 to 20 innocent family members, including women, babies in cribs, children, elderly, the infirmed and others.

nct: "...a picture of a few savage "Palestinian" subhumans waiving internal organs of the two Israeli reservist soldiers who were lynched and mutilated Oct 12, 2000."

Zionist Jew: You mean the "reservist" soldiers who made it through TWO security perimeters into a Palestinian town, where Israel was commonly known to send spies, agents and death squads? Would this picture resemble the picture of two young British soldiers (Sargeants Clifford Martin and Mervyn Paice) who were actually *kidnapped* (walking home, unarmed, from a cafe), held in a tiny basement cell, tortured, mutilated, and lynched *TWICE* (first hung until death in one location and then, their bloody bodies, hung *again* from trees in a second location near a govt forestry station) by "savage" Zionist "subhuman" a Jewish terrorist group in July 1947? And for extra good measure a booby-trap landmine was placed, by the "savage", "subhuman" Jews, under the hanging bodies beneath the trees, so that whomever came to cut them down would be blown up and also killed too? But, that's okay because we Zionist Jews did it. Can we damn hypocritical Zionist Jews provide us all with a presention of that photo here, non-critical thinker?

Angie: "The real Angie, me, cannot believe that someone has so little to occupy his or her mind..."

Zionist Jew: Well, we Zionist Jews have so little *mind* -- PERIOD! HaHa!!


nct: "As for gender: I'm male."

Zionist Jew: I figured you were male. Most of the biggest jerks on indymedia typical are (and I can usually tell male arguement styles). But, Angie has been trying to get us to be more open-minded about Zionist jerks, genderwise. I suppose that's only fair.

On Pal IMC, I saw Zionists post pictures of Palestinians holding parts of a brain and the pictures and text were designed to demonize them. It claimed as "Critical Thinker" does that the organs were those of Israeli soldiers.

Upon investigation, I found that the photos were from a specific incident in which a Palestinian civilian was shot in the head by an Israeli sniper using a high caliber bullet. The Palestinians were in shock and holding pieces of his brain which had flown everywhere but out of sympathy for the innocent civilian among them that was shot down in cold blood.

What was disgusting to me was that even these pictures (which depict a Palestinian victim of an Israeli sniper) were used to demonize Palestinians.

Dead-Ender: "As an Israeli left winger..."

Would that be like a, then, pro-Apartheid Afrikaner left-winger??? Or a, then, Southern segregationist left-winger??? What Desmond Tutu called "polite racism with a smiling face", as long as the natives keep their place. So, moral Dead-Ender, are you a leftist racist or a racist leftist? Manifest Destiny, Segregation, Nazism, Apartheid, and Zionism are all really just different ideological terms, variations upon a theme (and all ultimately justified "by God"), for the same thing: LEGALIZED STATE RACISM.

Right-wing Zionist: "God promised us. It's our land. We're here. And the Palestinians have to leave."
Left-wing Zionist (Dead-Ender): "Did the Palestinian got a bad deal - of course they did. I feel their pain. But, alas, it's too late now. Anyway, we've given the Palestinians a little corner to live in (except for the Jewish settlement towns/cities on the best land, of course, which I'll pretend will be evacuated, because that helps me to pretend to be a leftist/liberal). We'll just keep the rest of the place for our Jewish-supremacist state. Of course the 1-million-plus Israeli Palestinians will just have to get used to that, or they can leave too!"

The self-proclaimed/self-deluded liberal Zionists are even more hypocritical and lying than the right-wing, overt Jewish-supremacist Zionists. Slither back into your crevice Dead-Ender.

Hi: "The fact is, israel and its neighbors fought several wars, and the goal of the neighbors was to kill off every jewish israeli..."

Yeah, they just hate us 'cause we *Jews*, isn't that right!? (Like the kid who shoots his mother and then wants sympathy because he's an orphan!)

Hi: "...and make israel disappear."

Well, aside from the fact that the UN Jewish partition (never exclusively Jewish, physically) was *never* militarily attacked, and aside from the fact that even the Balfour Declararion said that the rights of the native inhabitants were to be respected by the Zionists, and besides the fact, anyway, that one people's (the 1st party's) land is not another people's (the 2nd party's) moral right to give away, or yet another people's (the 3rd party's) moral right to take by force, it's funny how the natives always resist being kicked off their land and out of their homes, isn't it?

(Well, by our European definitions, the land is never the native inhabitants' anyway, so we're justified. Anyway, *we* have to *civilize* the natives! What did U.S. General Westmoreland say about the Vietnamese, as the U.S. was killling some 2-3 million of them?: "They just don't place the same value on human life as *we* do." What did U.S. Sec'y of State Madeline Albright say about the deaths of some half-million children alone from, let's be real, U.S. sanctions supposedly to stop a *murderous* dictator that the U.S. once heavily supported and then lured into Kuwait, once the Iraq-Iran war was over?: "It's worth the price." What did Gandhi say about Western civilization: "I think it would be a good idea!")

Hi: "...israel-hating freaks. ...Are you demanding that the world be undone? Or just israel."

You see, when it's white European Jews who have been just, historically, recently undoing 2,000 years of ancient history at the original hands of other Euopeans (the Romans), in merely the past half-century or so, at the suffering of another people (the Palestinians), then *that's* okay. Then, it's not even "undoing". Then, instead -- in the racist Zionist mindset -- it's really the Palestinians who are trying to "undo" a mere 55 years of continuing Israeli apartheid history. The European Zionist *invaders* are NOT trying to undo, but the Zionist invaders' *victims* ARE! Now I see!

What completely oblivious RACIST double-standards!!

Hi: "do you also demand that pakistan be returned to india, that the US be returned to the native american indians, that australia be returned to the aboriginals, etc.?..."

So, now to add to the "God promised us" argument, and the "ancient presence" argument, we Zionists now have the "*Johnny* did it (too)!" argument!! Oh, that's choice! Did your mom ever accept that last argument?

So, that means that instead of being "God's Chosen People", that we Jews aren't any better, or any less racist, or any less hypocritical, or any less oppressive (I guess sadly so, given the first opportunity; although Jews sometimes oppressed in the Bible too) than anyone else? So, then what are we Zionist Jews carping about all the time. Why, then, do we keep forcing variations of our holocaust movies/stories on American TV every week on some channel or other, like we're morally superior? Why do we keep forcing American school kids to write Ann Frank biographies and Jewish holocaust essays year after year?

Non-Critical Thinker: "But this has been done [whenever Israel kills] as part of dispersement of dangerous riots; NOT cold blooded murder."

You have all the flair of a Nazi apologist, NCT. Nazi human rights criminal apologists at Nuremberg have got nothing in terms of verbal skills over Zionist apologists: they are both equal matches.

Nazi apologist war criminal: "Vee vere trying to disperze ze massed Jews for zer own safety, as zey vere a danger to ze non-Jewish population und our soldiers. You saw vhat ze Jews did in ze Varsaw Ghetto riot!"

NCT: "Vhenever ze massed Palestinians are kilt by ze Israelis, it vaz *only* as a part of our dizperzing a dangerous riot! *NEVER* kold-blooded murrr-derrr!!"

NCT: "...a picture of a few savage "Palestinian" subhumans waiving internal organs of the two Israeli reservist soldiers who were lynched and mutilated Oct 12, 2000."

Zionist Jew: You mean the "reservist" soldiers who made it through TWO security perimeters into a Palestinian town, where Israel was commonly known to send spies, agents and death squads? Would this picture resemble the picture of two young British soldiers (Sargeants Clifford Martin and Mervyn Paice) who were actually *kidnapped* (walking home, unarmed, from a cafe), held in a tiny basement cell, tortured, mutilated, and lynched *TWICE* (first hung until death in one location and then, their bloody bodies, hung *again* from trees in a second location near a govt forestry station) by "savage" Zionist "subhuman" a Jewish terrorist group in July 1947? And for extra good measure a booby-trap landmine was placed, by the "savage", "subhuman" Jews, under the hanging bodies beneath the trees, so that whomever came to cut them down would be blown up and also killed too? But, that's okay because we Zionist Jews did it. Can we damn hypocritical Zionist Jews provide us all with a presention of that photo here, non-critical thinker?

zionists are experts at exploiting holocausts even when the blood ison their hands.
political students are aware that many "radical" muslim organizations are founded with Zionist money to keep the t-error alive.
citizenry can be manipulated only if there is a vague enemy that they need protection from which then the zionist elite provides.
to make sure that the constant dose of propoganda is sufficiently terrifying, a lynch or two must be planned and somehow executed.

The two reservists, were recent poor european immigrants who were probobl deemed more valuable dead than alive by the Israeli logistical apparatus.

The intelligence within Israel knows everything that is going on in the OCCUPIED territories and were probobly privy to the lynching Process Too.

Their double agents are everywhere and were probobly the ones trapping the soldiers into their death in the first place...

the above comment is completely ignorant.
Zionists have been busy sacrificng everyone Jews and goys alike!

When a group headed by former prime minister Menachem begin, attempted to cause havoc to the British occupiers of Palestine... they dressed as Palestinian natives and went to the head quarters of the British parliament to detonated xploives in the King dave hotel, killing and injuring hundreds of civilians many of whome were Jewish.

The above unfortunately is hardly an isolated event, but the casual way the zionists have achieved their ulterior motives

their mantra is- through deception wage the wars.

The enemy of the Jews are not the Native Arabs but the ones who manipulate them to feel threatened by the Native Arabs!

Dear Zionist Jew,
Stop calling yourself a Jew, damnit! If you want to serve in our Zionist stormtrooper detachments, lose that yarmulke, buddy! We don't need Jews in our Zionist circles- if you have a problem with killing, looting and bombing, then you are a Jew. You have no place in our Zionist paradise in the Middle East.
If you believe in Judaism ( or Christianity or Islam or any other religion for that matter) then you are NOT a Zionist! We don't need people who pray to God instead of playing God like Ariel Sharon does with the life of every Israeli and Palestinian in the Middle East.
My dear brother, I invite you to join our IDF or find a seat in the Knesset, as my best friends 'Critical Thinker' ( clever name, because we Zionists prefer bulldozers to common sense) and ' David Duke in an antizionist' ( who's logical arguments and witty rebuttals and name-calling are sure enough to win anyone to Israel's side, just so he'll shut up).
Look at me, I'm a successful Zionist. So what if the UN thinks I'm a war criminal? I can always accuse it of being antisemitic!
If anyone has a problem with the way Israel violates human rights, this cool trick never fails! Check it out, you'll love it!
But please, Zionist Jew, don't go through all the trouble of calling yourself a Jew. You are either a Jew or a Zionist. A human being or a monster. A man of God or a creature of greed.
Make a choice.

Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist

I just figured that if Non-Critical Thinker could call himself a "Critical Thinker"(!), then I could call myself a Zionist Jew!

(By the way..., I love your work!)

...and your deeply incisive words:

I *VILL* join you and henceforth (correct me, ahem, STERNly if I forget) PROUDLY call myself ZIONIST! Killer of all that is good and just in Jews or Palestinians!!

-- ZIONIST (who killed the Jewish human being in me)

Heil Sharon!!

the kobe ryant dilema fits pretty neatly into the occupation category.

if kpbe ryant accused his accuser of racism and continued raping her until she apologized for her inherent racism, then he would be a zionist:;

CT, are the names of those British soldiers, above, tortured and lynched by Zionist terrorists correct? You seem to be avoiding that.

Solution is easy enough.
If oyu can find the people who lynched the british soldiers by all means take them to a criminal tribunal.
Same for the arabs (and anyone who protects those individuals).

http://indymedia.org.il/imc/webcast/64118.html

http://indymedia.org.il/imc/webcast/64145.html

http://indymedia.org.il/imc/webcast/64126.html

The Palestinian savages who were caught killing these poor Israeli soldiers surely must already be behind bars. Every palestinian who dared to attack Israelis- military or civilian- if caught by the IDF, is most likely either in prison or dead.
In contrast, when a brave IDF trooper shoots a Palestinian kid or destroys a house with the family still inside or prevents a dying man from reaching the hospital, he has a better chance of ending up with a promotion rather than behind bars. A nice military tribunal will either find his victims to be the guilty ones, or will punish him with a month or a few in prison, instead of a century or two, as would befall a villainous Palestinian bandit.
Our Zionist justice system is fair to all- whether you're an Israeli from Haifa or Netanya or Tel Aviv, killing Palestinians is OK. And whether your'e a palestinian from the West Bank or from Ramallah, you can expect to be treated with arrogance and brutality by the settlers or the IDF, regardless of your gender, age, or religion.
As you can all see, the Zionist justice system is the most perfect in the Middle East.
Hopefully, you can now all see just what a true and pretty democracy our little Israel is.

Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist


*** PS.
I will be away for the next 2 weeks. I encourage all of my Zionist friends to keep up the battle against humanity.

Every palestinian who dared to attack Israelis- military or civilian- if caught by the IDF, is most likely either in prison or dead.

Are you saying the israelis should be huging and kissing people who try to kill them? nice idea but not plausible.

In contrast, when a brave IDF trooper shoots a Palestinian kid or destroys a house with the family still inside or prevents a dying man from reaching the hospital, he has a better chance of ending up with a promotion rather than behind bars.

A) we have long discussed the difference
B) the palistinians would probably kill him they just usually dont get the chance.

A nice military tribunal will ...

Do you mean like the palistinian military tribunals that try the people who organize suicide bombings and other crimes against humanity? what tribunals? oh your right they dont even pretend to look for justice.

"As you can all see, the Zionist justice system is the most perfect in the Middle East."

note above

A blueprint for international instability, By Shlomo Avineri July 17, 2003

The atmosphere could not have been more tranquil: a former royal castle in the rolling hills of the Taunus region near Frankfurt, hosting an annual meeting, sponsored by a German foundation, of statesmen and politicians dealing with Middle Eastern problems. Europeans and Americans, Israelis and Iranians, Egyptians and Turks, Palestinians and Tunisians rubbed shoulders.

The Middle East road map, was naturally at the center of attention, and were most knowingly addressed on the opening night by a senior German government minister, himself deeply involved in Middle Eastern affairs, with great sensitivity to Israeli as well as Palestinian concerns.

The evening proceeded along the expected trajectory, until a Lebanese academic raised the issue of the right of Palestinian refugees to return to Israel. The senior German minister listened attentively, and then said: "This is an issue with which we in Germany are familiar; may I ask my German colleagues in the audience to raise their hand if they, or their families, were refugees from Eastern Europe?"

There was a moment of silence - the issue is embarrassing in Germany, fraught with political and moral landmines. Slowly, hands were raised: by my count, more than half the Germans present (government officials, journalists, businessmen) raised a hand: they, or their families, had been Vertriebene, expelled from their ancestral homes in Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Yugoslavia after World War II.

It is estimated that up to 10 million were expelled; with their descendants today they make up almost double that number - almost one in four Germans. Amid the hush the German senior minister continued: He himself was born in Eastern Europe and his family was expelled in the wake of the anti-German atmosphere after 1945. "But," he added, "neither I nor any of my colleagues claim the right to go back. "It is precisely because of that that I can now visit my ancestral hometown and talk to the people who live in the house in which I was born - because they do not feel threatened, because they know I don't want to displace them or take their house."

The minister went on to explain that peace in Europe is today embedded in this realization. Had Eastern European countries thought that millions of ethnic Germans would like to return, "the Iron Curtain would have never come down." It was a highly emotional response, one that Arab representatives chose later on to ignore. But it was just one more expression of the context in which the issue of the 1948 Palestinian refugees has to be addressed.

As the German senior minister reminded the audience, there are numerous parallels in recent history to the Palestinian refugee problem. Anyone who now argues that the 1948 Palestinian refugees have a claim, in principle, to return to Israel, has to confront the question: Why not the millions of German post-1945 expellees from Eastern Europe? The German minister supplied the answer. Moreover: Had a German government insisted in talks about reunification in 1990 that all German expellees from Poland and Czechoslovakia have, in principle, a right to return to these countries, it would have been clear that what West Germany had in mind was not reunification, but undoing the consequences of Nazi Germany's defeat in 1945.

This is exactly the meaning of the Palestinian demand for the right of return. The Palestinians' insistence on it at Camp David and Taba in 2000 made clear to most Israelis that what they have in mind is not undoing the consequences of 1967 - but undoing the consequences of their defeat in 1948. At that time, it should be recalled, Palestinian Arabs and four Arab members of the UN went to war - not only against Israel, but against international legitimacy and the UN plan for a two-state solution. There is no other example of member countries going to war against UN decisions; this is what the Arab countries - and the Palestinians - did. Obviously they prefer to forget it. Clearly there is a serious humanitarian issue involved. That the Palestinians' plight has been compounded by Arab use of the refugees as political pawns for half a century is a measure of the cynicism and immorality of Arab politics.

Nonetheless, the humanitarian issue remains - and the German senior minister referred to it explicitly, both with regard to the Palestinians and to the German expellees. But for him the political consequences were clear: A return of refugees - in the German as well as the Palestinian case - is a call for instability, if not war.

The author is professor of political science at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem.

'Critical Thinker': "Don't know if the Irgun kidnappers and executioners are still alive..."

'Critical Thinker': "The "Palestinian" savages have been brought to justice..."

... the so-called "Jews" (the Khazars), who do something even worse, actually go out and kidnap, torture, and hang two innocent British soldiers, and then plant a mine under their twice-hung bodies to kill whoever came to cut them down are only "kidnappers/executioners"...

...but the Palestinians are "savages".

Now you know why you're a Zionist racist and, indeed, why Zionism is racism and why Zionists (colonialists) like you are actually the "savages"
(It's 'interesting', "savages", that's what white colonialists have always called the indigenous people that the colonialists were trying to drive off, ethnically cleanse, or exterminate.)

'Critical Thinker': "they [the Zionist Khazar savages] may have been punished in the past but I've got no idea."

How about we dig up Begin's ("Jewish"-Khazar terrorist leader of the Irgun) body and rebury it in a war criminals prison graveyard where it belongs?

Then we can be sure, to some public measure, that he was ultimately punished and that he ended up where he really belonged.

Do not go into stupid debateds about 50 years ago.

Who cares about "irgun" when Palestinian kill more kids in one attack than the "irgun" killed in 10 years.

Stay focused. Don't fall into "progressive" traps.

I've yet to see an actual progressive try to fob off the "Khazar" canard. But I've seen my share of antisemites _posing_ as progressives do so, and I've seen many progressives turn a blind eye when they do.

@%<

http://indymedia.org.il/imc/webcast/64401.html

I checked it out, but I'm not sure what it is you wanted me to check it out for. There's no mention of Khazars, but there's a lot of what I consider justifiable criticism of the ISM.

@%<

Enough with the one sided ISM.

To be creadiable ISM should take direct action against the Palestinian war crimes.

This is collective punishemnt directed on Israelis because ISM blame Sharon

I'm no fan of the ISM. I think they're letting their naivete allow them to be exploited for propaganda purposes -- and worse -- and they certainly aren't very convincing when it comes to claiming anything approaching even-handedness. I don't think they're evil per se; I just think they haven't quite thought it all the way through yet, and are having too much fun playing "crusading superhero" to see the damage they're actually doing.

I think they would do themselves an enormous favor by making an unambiguous statement reaffirming Israel's right to exist. That they cannot is one of the reasons they're not taken seriously anywhere but the Indybay Reality Vortex.

@%<

What are you implying here, Gehrig, that no Jews are descended from Khazars?

What will you tell us next, that no Jews are descended from Native Peruvians?

Wind your eyes northward in the string and you'll see exactly what I mean. Take a look at how the word "Khazar" is being used in "?"'s post, which is what introduced the word "Khazar" into this thread, and you'll know what I mean when I say the Khazar canard. It's really not difficult.

Although, natch, I think you already knew exactly what I meant and were just hoping to make a rather lame rhetorical point.

@%<

Stupid dipshit Crap Thinker, you didn't respond! I said not to go into stupid debates about 50 years ago! Abraham promised us Israel 5000 years ago! And it's been 2000 years since our ancient kingdom, so we've come back for what's ours! But, we can't dwell on the past 50 years, ass-lame dipshit!

Stay focused, Crap Thinker! Don't fall into moral traps!

Gehrig, what are you, stupid dipshit too! What do you mean, "I'm not sure what it is you wanted me to check it out." What are you? Some ass-lame dipshit dummy?

And don't talk about the ISM! There are JEWS in the ISM! People will realize that some Jews are opposed to us Zionists imitating the Nazis! Anyway, with Israel chocked full of people like us, those ISM'ers will be too busy (ducking rubber-coated steal, or real, bullets and dodging giant bulldozers, haha!) to talk to us here!

Critical Thinker: "I don't care to debate your shit or wax philosophically...with you"

?: Ohhh..., I'm heartbroken!

Let me take your own standard response to someone else from another thread -- and rub your nose in it good and hard: "Translation: You can't refute my corrections of your misconceptions, lies and mistakes and opt instead for bombastically tarnishing me to save face ("declare victory and run")."

Thank You !

Every time you use my name in vain I know my message has an infulance

Ender: "Every time you use my name *IN VAIN*[?] I know my message has an infulance"

?: Oh yeah, we're ALL worshipping your every thought, 'O *Messiah*'!

'Critical Thinker': "Gee, you could have fooled me!"

?: As someone here in one of these threads once said to you, "A gnat with a lobotomy could fool *you*!"

Non-Critical 'Thinker': "not to mention you're too dumb to impersonify..."

?: SPEAKING OF ***DUMMMM*** !!!: ... ***"IMPERSONIFY"***!!!???

WHAT'S **THAT**! BUSHSPEAK!!!???

BUSH EBONICS!!???

I GUESS YOU AUTHORITIZED THAT IN YOUR RESPONSIFICATION TO MY POSTIFYING! HUH?

***HAHAHAHAHA***!!!

HEY! ENDER, GEHRIG!! COME CARRY YOUR ZIONIST BOY OFF THE INTELLECTUAL FIELD OF BATTLE. TAKE HIM BACK TO TEXAS!! HE'S NOT READY FOR PRIME TIME!!!

*****HAHAHAHAHAHA*****!!!

ROTFLMAO!!!


ACTUALLY, IF THIS WEREN'T ALL SO SADLY AND IRONICALLY SERIOUS, ALL YOU ZIONISTS WOULD BE A *SITCOM*!.

STORY: "BUNCH O' CRAZY JEWISH FUNDAMENTALISTS, LUNATICS, CLAIM THAT *GOD* PROMISED THEM ISRAEL 5,000 YEARS AGO, AND THAT THEY ONCE HAD A COUNTRY 2,000 YEARS AGO, AND THEY'RE COMING BACK TO GET IT!"

Help!

I'm laughing myself into a coma here! This Board is becoming almost as hysterically mad as "Mad", itself!

think I'll meander down through the rest of these threads and see what else is being said today or yesterday that will continue the merriment, possibly.

"A gnat with a lobotomy", indeed! Hahaha!!1

Ender: "Every time you use my name *IN VAIN*[?] I know my message has an infulance"

?: OH YEAH!? 'O GREAT MESSIAH'!? AN ***IN-FUL-ANCE***!!!???

OH YOU ZIONIST GUYS ARE TOO MUCH!!!

AGAIN! ROTFLMAO!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

HEY, GEHRIG, COME CARRY YOUR GIRL/BOY OFF THE FIELD TOO.

HEY GEHRIG, WHEN'S *YOUR* TURN FOR A PEARL OF WISDUMICATION!!!???

Thank you Thank You by Ender Thursday August 21, 2003 at 11:04 PM.

Ender: "contnue to worship me like you do"

?: IT'S BECAUSE OF YOUR GREAT IN-FUL-LANCE!!!

HAHAHAHAHA!!!

Ender: "This IS very FLATERING"

?: WHATEVER HELPS YOU SLEEP AT NIGHT! -- AND HOLD YOUR PEN UP DURING THE DAY!

HAHAHAHAHA!!!

Critical Thinkifier!: "Our anti-Semitic bigot on duty just can't stop drooling over what I say."

?: YOU MEAN, OVER YOUR RESPONSIFICATION TO MY POSTIFYING!?

***YOU'RE RIGHT***!!!

I'M LAUGHING SO HARD THAT I'M ***DROOLING***!!!

HAHAHAHAHA!!!

***STILL*** ROTFLMAO !!!

Ender: "This IS very FLATERING."

?: YOU MEAN LIKE, IN-FLATERING???

OR FLA*TT*ERING???

(GET YOUR SPELLIN' BOOK OUT AND PRACTICE SOME MORE!!! HAHAHAHAHA...!!!)

OH, GEHRIG!!! COME 'N GET YOUR BOY/GIRL/MESSIAH!!!

S/HE BETTER QUIT WHILE S/HE'S AHEAD!!!

AN IN-FLA*T*ERED HEAD!!!

A HEAD *CASE* THAT IS!!!

OH, I COULD GO ON ALL NIGHT...!! BUT SLEEP BECKONS!!

***HAHAHAHAHA***!!!

Spelling flames. How dazzling.

@%<

Yep, I guess that's what "*IMPERSONIFY*" *IS*, 'alright'! --A simple(minded!) *spelling* error!

I guess that Bushisms are really just Presidential spelliing errors.


As for Ender, since s/he thinks that s/he is the Messiah, I would *expect* perfection!

[Typos (spelling, per se, or phonetic ones) are one thing, ger-hig, but if its *OBVIOUS* that you can't even spell simple words, and yet you act so arrogant, so obnoxious, and so smarmy (both like you), then what does that say about one's mental acquisition? Then, you got what's coming to you. I just had to bring the Mighties, "Critical 'Thinkifier' " and "Dead-Ender", down a peg--or many. I'll do that to YOU *too*, ger-hig, when YOU pratfall!]

Now, come get your boy (CT) and 'girl' (E) off the field.

manifest buffoon: "I'll do that to YOU *too*, ger-hig, when YOU pratfall!"

And, like Ender and Critical Thinker, I won't give a shit what a pre-adolescent buffoon like you cackles, Laughing Boy. Go ahead and knock yourself out, because the emptiness of your schoolyard posturing couldn't be clearer. To anyone with reading comprehension skills sharper than those of the average grapefruit, that is.

@%<

"Critical 'Thinkifier' ": "s/he has nothing more to do other than deride *spelling* issues."

?: Yeah, 'RRRIGHT'... !!

There you were -- "NOT TO MENTION YOU'RE TOO *DUMB* TO IM-PER-SO-NI-FY..." -- calling someone *ELSE* *DUM* and then--TWO WORDS LATER! -- you go into *IGNORANT* *BUSHSPEAK*!! (To the ? bigoted dipshit by Critical Thinkifier Thursday August 21, 2003 at 01:31AM.)

OR IS THAT ZIOBONICS !!!?

HAHHAHAHA...!!!

(WHAT A BUNCH OF IGNORANT BASTARDS!!)

As I said before...

?: WHATEVER PSYCHOLOGICALLY HELPS YOU SLEEP AT NIGHT!! -- AND PSYCHOLOGICALLY HELPS YOU HOLD YOUR PEN UP DURING THE DAY!

HAHAHAHAHA...!!!

(Oh, these Zionist NUTS jes' crack me up!! Hahaha!)

gerhig: "To anyone with reading comprehension skills sharper than those of the average *grapefruit*..."

?: HAHAHAHAHA!!!

*"GRAPEFRUIT"*!!???

Ger-hig, did you stay up *ALL* night thinking up that choice 'witicism' !???

You're almost as smart as your Zionist cohorts, 'Thinkifier' and Dead-Ender!!

HAHAHAHAHA...!!!

Check your medication I think you mixed up your prescribed Lithium with your un-prescribed Methamphetamines

What an exchange of intellectualism!

This should go a long ways towards a Nobel Prize nomination for peace in the Middle East

File it to your computers, everyone, and remember you saw it here first.

Critical: " You're such a cheerful anti-Jewish bigot"

Did you catch the other thread in which he started proffering the "Khazar" bit?

And the thing is, with folks like JA, you can't even say you're disappointed, because what did you expect anyway?

@%<

Did you catch...
by gehrig Friday August 22, 2003 at 07:55 PM:

"Did you catch the other thread in which he started proffering the "Khazar" bit?

And the thing is, with folks like JA, you can't even say you're disappointed, because what did you expect anyway?"


JA: Gerhig is is just as big an ID-DIOT(!) as the rest of you arch-Zionists.

[...DRUMMING, DRUMMING, DRUMMING, DRUMMING, DRUMMING, DRUMMING...!!!]

*****NON-CRITICAL THINKIFIER*****!!!!!

[TSHHHHHH....!!!!!!]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...!!!!!!!!!!

(YOU ALSO GET THE NOBEL PRIZE IN *ZIOBONICS*!!!)

Readers should know that this article is fabricated. Ms.Gwynne never knew Mr. Abu Salerm as is claimed. Shameful, lying Zionists...

Zionists fabricated a whole 'history' in Palestine.

"But of course, the kinds of folks who push an ideology that required the expulsion of three-quarters-of-a-million Palestinians from their lands, and then lied about it, claiming there had been no such persons to begin with (as with Golda Meir's infamous quip), can't be expected to place a very high premium on truth."

--Tim Wise. Anti-racist, Anti-Zionist, Jewish-American activist, public lecturer, and essayist ("Reflections on Zionism from a Dissident Jew"; and "Fraud fit for a King: Israel, Zionism, and the Misuse of MLK"; and other essays available online).

"Steve" is having a difficult time adjusting to the realities of this continued ethnic cleansing of the people of Palestine by Israel, isn't he?

Why don't Zionists go to any other country (after all Jews have had a continuous presence in Europe for 2,000 years, so Europe is as much - moreso! - "their ancient homeland" too, today); first take over half of any country there, then take over about 80% proper, call it Israel (or "Ziotopia"), then take over the rest of it (because, of course, the people will resist), then offer back about 20% (minus the settlements on the best land, even there, that you retain), and see what happens! I'm sure they won't mind!

Oh, go for a bigger country like Russia (that's where many of you started, so to speak), Germany or France (get even with them), Poland (that's where so many founding Israeli Jewish terrorists were from), Italy or Spain (they're a Mediterranean country), Britain (they were so willing to hand over someone *else's* land), Norway or Sweden or Finland (they're a peaceful people), Canada (they're not even using 90% of the country!), the U.S. (oh, they *love* Jews--'half' the administration is Jewish). TRY IT! Nobody's persecuting Jews there. No bus bombs! You'll be much safer there! Not around those nasty Jew-hating Ay-rabs!

Now, which Jew-loving country will you pick?

You seem to have what I call the "jews are children of the corn" complex.
they are not all collectively responsible for actions their ancestors or other jews commit they also are not able to collectively make a decision like "lets all move to a state in the USA and call it zion". any more than "the black people" can make a similar decision regarding africa.
The fact is there are a group of jews in israel now and many of them were born there and as far as justice is concerned there is no reason why they would have any less right to live in that ocuntry than anyone else.

"as far as justice is concerned there is no reason why they [Jews] would have any less right to live in that ocuntry than anyone else."

They have less of a right to live there if they are going to oppress others. There's no moral fait accompli just because someone who immigrated there 10 or 20 or 30 years ago had a kid. But you think that they have MORE of a right to live there than the Palestinians. And since you never mentioned the rights of the Palestinians I consider you a typical Zionist racist (also typical).

I'm not going to respond to any more of your morally insipid comments, Scottie. The point about the Zionist hoax against Ann Gwynne has been made above, and so has my point about the moral rights of Zionists. End of story.

They have less of a right to live there if they are going to oppress others.

- you have a funny view of rights as if they can arbitrarily be denied to a race for some reason or other.. and as we are to see you have an equally twisted view on citizenship..

"There's no moral fait accompli just because someone who immigrated there 10 or 20 or 30 years ago had a kid. "

What does give you right to stay in a country any more than "being born there"? What is your twisted criteria? If someone "born in the country is not a citizen of that country of what country would you make them a citizen?

"But you think that they have MORE of a right to live there than the Palestinians."

I mean "no less right or no more right than anyone else"
dont try to put words in peoples mouths it jsut makes you look like an idiot.

" And since you never mentioned the rights of the Palestinians I consider you a typical Zionist racist (also typical)."

We were talking about if the jews should have to move. The fact that jews dont have to move in no way implies that palistinins have to move I had assumed you were not that stupid but I guess i tragically overestimated you. .

"I'm not going to respond to any more of your morally insipid comments, Scottie"

The morral insipedness is all in your own head.

Hahaha, so if "a zionist" does something, then "the zionists" did it?

Hahahahah!

A "zionist" is anyone, anywhere, who is on the side of israel's existence.

If an individual person who happens to support israel's existence, or a group of people, regardless of how much power they have, do something, "the zionists" didn't do it, that specific person or group did.

Speaking of "the zionists" doing something is idotic.

My mom wants israel to survive, and is therefore a zionist. She hasn't done anything. Don't say "the zionists" did something, you only make yourself look stupid.

TO SCOTTIE: Keep it up, keep using logic and facts, things that nessie and these others appear to be afraid of. It's a real shame that this has to be a battle, but nessie and the others WILLFULLY, INTENTIONALLY REJECT facts and logic in this.

"My mom wants israel to survive, and is therefore a zionist."


Just *HOW* *STUPID* can you ZIONISTS be? You keep trying to argue all your piddly shit (when you're not spamming SF-IMC, or trying to perpetrate at least partial denial of services attacks on SF-IMC, or commiting SHAMELESS FRAUD like the article above against Anne Gwynne). You keep coming back with insipid, idiotic attempts at arguments, like Scottie the nerd above (which I knew he would endlessly do with his pin-sized brain and nothing else to do) or you got apron-holding Jewish "MOMMA'S BOYS" like the above (Scottie, I *KNOW* that's *YOU*) who thinks I give a shit what his momma thinks. When these Zionist idiots are the only people left on earth who can't comphrehend:

*THAT'S RIGHT!* As politically and legally self-defined: I *DON'T* WANT ISRAEL TO SURVIVE AS "A JEWISH STATE". PERIOD.

(And I don't give a damn what your momma has to say about it, Scottie.)

I guess that since you SF-IMC Zionists -- ALL "the Zionists" -- heads are made of wood, with brains made of sawdust, that that is still unknown news to you.

Now, read each of the capitalized words above s-l-o-w-l-y (well, really, I know that that's the only way you can read them), look up each word in a dictionary (or ask your momma what each word means) -- especially the word "DON'T"!

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A very prominent anti-Zionist Jew once said, with regard to the right of Zionist Jews to live in Palestine:

"If I had the power, I'd give ALL those Zionist Jews in Israel 30 minutes to leave the country. And if any of them complained, I'd give *them* 15, along with the settlers."

Ha!

"or you got apron-holding Jewish "MOMMA'S BOYS" like the above (Scottie, I *KNOW* that's *YOU*) "

It isnt. anyone with half a brain can tell the difference between two different peoples writing styles. Although I am not entirely surprised if you cannot.

"If I had the power, I'd give ALL those Zionist Jews in Israel 30 minutes to leave the country. And if any of them complained, I'd give *them* 15, along with the settlers."

Sounds like you are quoting Hitler or someone similar.. I know he may have had some jewish blood but calling him a "prominent jew" is really streching the definition
.
Anyone who says "race X must leave country Y in[some arbritrary time period in which this would be impossible] or else... is obviously either not being serious or needs to be locked up for the rest of his natural life.

Scottie: "anyone with half a brain..."

But, Scottie, you don't have even *that*!

Scottie: "Sounds like you are quoting Hitler or someone similar."

Scottie, I know that you aren't too swift, but haven't you heard the news: Hitler is dead.

Scottie: "Anyone who says "race X must leave country Y in[some arbritrary time period in which this would be impossible] or else... is obviously either not being serious or needs to be locked up for the rest of his natural life."

So, Zionists are a race now? A race of Zionists, huh? Haha! (Well, actually, I could buy that Zionists are a fundamentalist, fanatical, immoral, seperate 'race' of people.)

And now you Zionists would lock up people for the rest of their lives for anti-Zionist speech? Now I *KNOW* you *ARE* in *ISRAEL*, aren't you, Scottie, where you Zionists love to pass those kinds of laws. (I know that you Zionists have already been trying to pass such draconian censorship rules, for expulsion, at American schools and universities.) What would it be, Scottie? Permanent "administrative detention" in some horrible Israeli prison for Palestinians? Just the way you Hitlerian Zionist Jews love to do things, isn't it.

"So, Zionists are a race now? A race of Zionists, huh? Haha! (Well, actually, I could buy that Zionists are a fundamentalist, fanatical, immoral, seperate 'race' of people.) "

Ok so how are you going to determine who is a "zionist' and who isnt? are you going to use your mind reading powers?
most likely the term was said with "jew" in mind.
no matter how you twist it the practicality of it was as i suggested.

Actually there is one other option. 'anyone who accepts israels right to exist is a zionist" if you take that definition you will have to send half the palistinians "home" also.

do you realise how stupid you sound?

"And now you Zionists would lock up people for the rest of their lives for anti-Zionist speech? "

We would? if we did you would nbe in jail. and your not so hey.. i guess we dont and your an idiot.

"now I *KNOW* you *ARE* in *ISRAEL*, aren't you, Scottie, where you Zionists love to pass those kinds of laws. '

I am not what proof would oyu like for that? maybe the times of day I post? or somthing else? Please grow a brain and do some thinking with it.

-(I know that you Zionists have already been trying to pass such draconian censorship rules, for expulsion, at American schools and universities.)

draconian laws like dont deny the holocaust? and your not alowed to incite genocide? are those the ones you are refering to?
actualy I oppose censorship but i guess the university has a right to kick you out because those topics would indicate that you are stupid and a waste of resources.

So, let's just itemize the two most idiotic Zionist claims, recently.

First, from one Zionist idiot we had that Saudi Arabia was named after THE "ETHNIC SAUDIS"! Hahaha!

Second, then, ole 'brainiac' "Momma's Boy Scottie" declares Zionists to be a race. (Although I accept that indeed Zionists might just be a dangerous alien race!) Hahaha!

Then, we have Scottie asking: "are you going to use your mind reading powers?"

Followed by ole mindreader "Swami Scottie" saying: "most likely the term was said with "jew" in mind."

I guess *his* mindreading powers are greater.

Then, in response to the question: "And now you Zionists would lock up people for the rest of their lives for anti-Zionist speech? "...

Scottie replies: "We would? if we did you would nbe in jail. and your not so hey.. i guess we dont and your an idiot."

But, didn't "Alzheimer Scottie" just say: "Anyone who says "race X must leave country Y in[some arbritrary time period in which this would be impossible] or else... is obviously either not being serious or NEEDS TO BE LOCKED UP FOR THE REST OF HIS NATURAL [ -- AS OPPOSED TO *UNNATURAL*? -- ] LIFE."

I guess that Scottie must be THE IDIOT after all.

Then, "Non Sequitur Scottie" goes off into some *more* drivel about someone denying the Holocaust and inciting genocide. Where?

Then, Scottie says: "actualy I oppose censorship"

But, then "Stalin Scottie" *contradicts* himself: "i guess the university has a right to kick you out because *THOSE* TOPICS would indicate that you are stupid and a waste of resources."

Scottie: "anyone with half a brain..."

But, Scottie, you don't have even *that*!

SCOTTIE, YOU'RE POSITIVELY 'BRILLIANT'!

TAKE A BOW!

HAHA!

http://www.nyc.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=71180&group=webcast

Yeah, we needed Old Massa & the KKK to come down to the plantation fields to settle the slave disputes. And we needed the Calvary to come to the Indian reservation to settle the disputes among the natives. And we need the Zionists to come to the Occupied Territories, the occupied, seized or closed cities/towns, to settle the disputes among the indigenous Palestinians. It's a good thing that we had the Massa and the Calvary -- and that he CREATED the plantation and the reservation -- or things would just have been a mess! Without the Massa and the Calvary -- and Western imperialism and Zionist colonialism (an extension of the former) -- where would we non-European people be? Ahhh..., sadly..., it's the white man's burden.

(First oppression creates the conditions that lead to the conditions that call for the oppressed to call for help from the very oppressors that put them in the condition that the oppressed are in and from which some of the oppressed may then want help from the oppressors who put them in that condition in the first place.)

And then we have advocates for the oppressor writing articles (like the one in the post above with the purposefully and deceitfully [what's new about Zionists] entitled, "The Untold Story of Palestinian Suffering") 'justifying' the oppression as necessary to keep the oppressed behaving orderly.

It's racist Zionism and the racist Occupation, stupid.

"Second, then, ole 'brainiac' "Momma's Boy Scottie" declares Zionists to be a race. (Although I accept that indeed Zionists might just be a dangerous alien race!) Hahaha!"

A) Doesnt that jsut scream out "IDIOT"?
B) I didnt say that zionism means a race when I use it but it sounds like it is when the person you quoted uses it.

Followed by ole mindreader "Swami Scottie" saying: "most likely the term was said with "jew" in mind."

- go on what EXACTLY is a ZIONIST and on what grounds would it be even vaguely possible to operationalize the suggestion that you quoted?

"I guess that Scottie must be THE IDIOT after all."

- how would you like me to prove that wrong? name your criteria. I keep offering you the opportunity but you dont take it up? what is your IQ? got any degrees? anything else?

"Then, "Non Sequitur Scottie" goes off into some *more* drivel about someone denying the Holocaust and inciting genocide. Where?"

- These are some grounds on which people have been silenced. I dont live in the US or Israel so I dont know what grounds they might get silenced there. Frankly I have no idea what you are talking about in regard to censorship.

"But, then "Stalin Scottie" *contradicts* himself: "i guess the university has a right to kick you out because *THOSE* TOPICS would indicate that you are stupid and a waste of resources.""

If you write an economics and get all of your maths wrong in all of your papers it is most likely that you will fail your degree and get kicked out. I was likening holocaust denial to that. that could be considered censorship of incorect mathmatics ..but that would just be stupid.
there is also a natural censorship in academia where some articles are jsut considered "unpublishable" because they dont agree with current theory or arent interesting enough etc etc. Go solve that problem if you are such a purist.

Since you are making lots of statements about me which are obviously wrong why dont you name the criteria by which you would like me to prove you wrong ....

I've just come across this thread. As an ISMer who has used the "freethepeeps" handle for over 2 years, I want to clarify that the post is nothing to do with me.

Furthermore, to the best of my knowledge, Anne Gwynne is not sponsored by Hammas.

:-/