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Two Palestinian and Israeli professors discuss the injustices against the Palestinians
...
Listen now:
Palestinian Sociology Professor Rhabab Abduladhi from NY University & Israeli Professor Simona Shironi of Evergreen College, Washington discuss the Palestinian/Israeli conflict.
Length:
28:48 minutes
Length:
28:48 minutes
For more information:
http://www.radio4all.net/proginfo.php?id=7393
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This is a very interesting program. Definitely worth listening to.
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Is this the part where we pretend that the average palestinian is well-meaning and wants a peaceful two-state solution?
I hate that part. It's too unrealistic for me, sorry.
I hate that part. It's too unrealistic for me, sorry.
and the average Israeli does!?! Give me a break.
The whole idea behind the Road Map is a Two-State solution, is it not???
The flaw in the Road Map is that it does not Start with a Palestinian State with reasonable borders now, there by giving the Palestinian freedom fighters a reason to stop their fight...
The U.S. went to war in Iraq to so call free some 24,000,000 Iraqi people from saddam.....
An yet it cannot seem to bring freedom to some 3,500,000 Palestinian People suffering under the Brutal Israeli Occupation and Oppression....
People have died, Who and How???
CLICK HERE > http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html
There are WMD, Where are these WMD???
CLICK HERE > http://www.msnbc.com/news/wld/graphics/strategic_israel_dw.htm
Is there a Possible Solution where Israel can have their State inside the Green line (pre 1967 Borders) and the Palestinian can live in Peace and with freedom (After all the U.S. believes in freedom for all) in their own State in the West Bank and Gaza...
CLICK HERE > http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1618616.php
Sometimes you have to be just and fair in order to have Peace....
The flaw in the Road Map is that it does not Start with a Palestinian State with reasonable borders now, there by giving the Palestinian freedom fighters a reason to stop their fight...
The U.S. went to war in Iraq to so call free some 24,000,000 Iraqi people from saddam.....
An yet it cannot seem to bring freedom to some 3,500,000 Palestinian People suffering under the Brutal Israeli Occupation and Oppression....
People have died, Who and How???
CLICK HERE > http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html
There are WMD, Where are these WMD???
CLICK HERE > http://www.msnbc.com/news/wld/graphics/strategic_israel_dw.htm
Is there a Possible Solution where Israel can have their State inside the Green line (pre 1967 Borders) and the Palestinian can live in Peace and with freedom (After all the U.S. believes in freedom for all) in their own State in the West Bank and Gaza...
CLICK HERE > http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1618616.php
Sometimes you have to be just and fair in order to have Peace....
If you want to know what the average israeli thinks or what the average palistinian thinks there is no need to guess go find the opinion surveys on the net. (and yet everyone here keeps on just gessing!!! and relying on what hey think they would think.)
# As for suicide bombing operations against Israeli civilians, there is a slight trend of decreased support for them since 59.9 percent of those interviewed somewhat or strongly supported them dropping from 62.7 percent last December, 64.3 percent last September, 68.1 last June 72 percent last March and 74 percent in December 2001.
A very slight majority (52%) of palistinians support the two state solution in principle. (However this should be viewed in the light of the question at the bottom)
From other sources
about 81% or so of israelis support in principle the "separate states" solution. about 62% though this was a "feasible option" about 48% acepted this with the removal of settlements.
Now if you want to know what the big stumbling block is here we go...
When asked "Do you support or object to the following phrase: "It is not possible to accept a peace agreement which does not include the right of the Palestinian refugees to return to their native homelands". 97.4% supported it
# As for suicide bombing operations against Israeli civilians, there is a slight trend of decreased support for them since 59.9 percent of those interviewed somewhat or strongly supported them dropping from 62.7 percent last December, 64.3 percent last September, 68.1 last June 72 percent last March and 74 percent in December 2001.
A very slight majority (52%) of palistinians support the two state solution in principle. (However this should be viewed in the light of the question at the bottom)
From other sources
about 81% or so of israelis support in principle the "separate states" solution. about 62% though this was a "feasible option" about 48% acepted this with the removal of settlements.
Now if you want to know what the big stumbling block is here we go...
When asked "Do you support or object to the following phrase: "It is not possible to accept a peace agreement which does not include the right of the Palestinian refugees to return to their native homelands". 97.4% supported it
Ralph,
If the "average Israeli" wanted a Palestinian state for a "long time now", there would be one.
How much longer must the Palestinians wait? There was the Fourth Geneva Convention in 1949, the numerous UN resolutions, the Oslo Accords (which Netanyahu deliberately left lying around for over three years), there is the Road Map (which Sharon never intended to accept despite his blatant lying to Bush et al).
Why do I say that? Because the Map obliged Sharon to remove immediately approximately 80 settlement outposts, freeze all settlements, stop the building of the wall, and withdraw the army from all the West Bank towns. Not one of those obligations were carried out. Not one!
We are, after all, looking at 54 or more years of Israeli statehood, and close to 40 years of oppressive, cruel occupation of the Palestinians, and the theft of their lands, and the destruction of their homes.
Quite frankly we are tired, in fact, sick and tired, of the old time worn excuse that there would be peace if it were not for the leaders of the Palestinians especially Arafat. It's garbage, and you know it. An excellent excuse, of course, but garbage just the same.
Back in 1995/96 when Prime Minister Rabin was determined to work out a peace plan with an equally determined Yasser Arafat, he was murdered for his efforts, and by a Jewish extremist, NOT a Palestinian.
It's been the same from the beginning. Whenever there is the remotest chance of peace, Israel is the one to render it useless.
Just take, for instance, the terms and conditions of the road map. Despite those terms and conditions, Israel kept up its assassinations its daily incursions into Palestinian towns and cities, until the Palestinians responded with suicide bombers. They played right into Sharon and the IDF's hands.
While we were hearing nothing much about the Israeli killings and incursions, we heard plenty about the suicide bombings, the propaganda machine, which is the israeli media, ensured that with help from the US like-minded media.
Thus we get the impression that it was the militant groups who disrupted the peace process. Utter rot.
From the very beginning of the hudna Sharon and his military were determined would not last, this despite the fact that Israelis were filled with new hope and signs of optimism on both sides.
Under the guise of killing "terrorists", Israel continued along its destructive way until, as I mentioned above, the Palestinians retaliated.
And as the killings, the suicide bombings, the continued construction of the bloody wall deep into Palestinian territories accelerate with more and more bloodshed, more and more settlements, we hear now that Israel wants to "expel" Arafat from Ramallah, and what does this mean?
It sure as hell doesn't mean from his compound or from Palestine. It means from this world. In other words, have him murdered. And I'm sure they will do it in such as way as to blame someone else (preferably an Arab) for so doing. We are, after all, becoming more and more familiar with the Israeli antics, having had so much experience with them over the years.
So let's not talk about anything as asinine as peace and a Palestinian state here. Ariel Sharon doesn't want it.
He's never wanted it, and he has effectively killed the road map, and he will ensure that Abbas will be toppled as well. After all, we've heard him prattle on enough about Abbas not doing enough to "rein in the militants", as if Sharon was busy "reining in" his muderous army.
Why don't you think about the idea of a Palestinian state as set forth by Sharon on Christmas Day past wherein he stated:
"I would support a totally unarmed Palestinian state with reduced borders" . . .
And what is the wall all about but reduced borders; in fact, no borders. An enclave surrounded by Israeli territory is still a damn enclave, and it cannot, or must not, be allowed to pass as a state.
Go talk to your people, Ralph. This is not, nor has it ever been, as you want us to believe. Or why don't you try living in an enclave surrounded by a racist state, and see if you would refer to it as 'a state". I doubt that, my friend.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: I hear just now that Mahmud Abbas has resigned as Prime Minister. Well, well, well! Isn't this Ariel Sharon's lucky day!!! He's gotten another of his wishes!
As Uri Avnery said in a timely article "A Drug for the Addict" just last week:
"The Road Map is dead because Sharon was against it from the beginning, Bush saw it only as a photo opportunity on a nice bakground, and Abu-Mazen did not get from Israel and the US anything that he could present as a Palestinian achievement".
Sounds just like the Oslo Agreement and all else besides, doesn't it, Ralph?
If the "average Israeli" wanted a Palestinian state for a "long time now", there would be one.
How much longer must the Palestinians wait? There was the Fourth Geneva Convention in 1949, the numerous UN resolutions, the Oslo Accords (which Netanyahu deliberately left lying around for over three years), there is the Road Map (which Sharon never intended to accept despite his blatant lying to Bush et al).
Why do I say that? Because the Map obliged Sharon to remove immediately approximately 80 settlement outposts, freeze all settlements, stop the building of the wall, and withdraw the army from all the West Bank towns. Not one of those obligations were carried out. Not one!
We are, after all, looking at 54 or more years of Israeli statehood, and close to 40 years of oppressive, cruel occupation of the Palestinians, and the theft of their lands, and the destruction of their homes.
Quite frankly we are tired, in fact, sick and tired, of the old time worn excuse that there would be peace if it were not for the leaders of the Palestinians especially Arafat. It's garbage, and you know it. An excellent excuse, of course, but garbage just the same.
Back in 1995/96 when Prime Minister Rabin was determined to work out a peace plan with an equally determined Yasser Arafat, he was murdered for his efforts, and by a Jewish extremist, NOT a Palestinian.
It's been the same from the beginning. Whenever there is the remotest chance of peace, Israel is the one to render it useless.
Just take, for instance, the terms and conditions of the road map. Despite those terms and conditions, Israel kept up its assassinations its daily incursions into Palestinian towns and cities, until the Palestinians responded with suicide bombers. They played right into Sharon and the IDF's hands.
While we were hearing nothing much about the Israeli killings and incursions, we heard plenty about the suicide bombings, the propaganda machine, which is the israeli media, ensured that with help from the US like-minded media.
Thus we get the impression that it was the militant groups who disrupted the peace process. Utter rot.
From the very beginning of the hudna Sharon and his military were determined would not last, this despite the fact that Israelis were filled with new hope and signs of optimism on both sides.
Under the guise of killing "terrorists", Israel continued along its destructive way until, as I mentioned above, the Palestinians retaliated.
And as the killings, the suicide bombings, the continued construction of the bloody wall deep into Palestinian territories accelerate with more and more bloodshed, more and more settlements, we hear now that Israel wants to "expel" Arafat from Ramallah, and what does this mean?
It sure as hell doesn't mean from his compound or from Palestine. It means from this world. In other words, have him murdered. And I'm sure they will do it in such as way as to blame someone else (preferably an Arab) for so doing. We are, after all, becoming more and more familiar with the Israeli antics, having had so much experience with them over the years.
So let's not talk about anything as asinine as peace and a Palestinian state here. Ariel Sharon doesn't want it.
He's never wanted it, and he has effectively killed the road map, and he will ensure that Abbas will be toppled as well. After all, we've heard him prattle on enough about Abbas not doing enough to "rein in the militants", as if Sharon was busy "reining in" his muderous army.
Why don't you think about the idea of a Palestinian state as set forth by Sharon on Christmas Day past wherein he stated:
"I would support a totally unarmed Palestinian state with reduced borders" . . .
And what is the wall all about but reduced borders; in fact, no borders. An enclave surrounded by Israeli territory is still a damn enclave, and it cannot, or must not, be allowed to pass as a state.
Go talk to your people, Ralph. This is not, nor has it ever been, as you want us to believe. Or why don't you try living in an enclave surrounded by a racist state, and see if you would refer to it as 'a state". I doubt that, my friend.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: I hear just now that Mahmud Abbas has resigned as Prime Minister. Well, well, well! Isn't this Ariel Sharon's lucky day!!! He's gotten another of his wishes!
As Uri Avnery said in a timely article "A Drug for the Addict" just last week:
"The Road Map is dead because Sharon was against it from the beginning, Bush saw it only as a photo opportunity on a nice bakground, and Abu-Mazen did not get from Israel and the US anything that he could present as a Palestinian achievement".
Sounds just like the Oslo Agreement and all else besides, doesn't it, Ralph?
Angie: "If the "average Israeli" wanted a Palestinian state for a "long time now", there would be one. "
No!!! The problem is the Palestinians themselves didn't want it, and you deliberately ignore this fact!!!
Angie: "the Oslo Accords (which Netanyahu deliberately left lying around for over three years)"
Wrong!!! He tried to make the Palestinians deliver on their undertakings after Israel had taken big strides in its own undertakings. This is what seemed to you and many others like a deliberate non-progress by Netanyahu. You also conveniently forgot Netanyahu signed the Wye accord and handed almost all Hebron to the PA.
Angie: "there is the Road Map (which Sharon never intended to accept despite his blatant lying to Bush et al)."
This is a lie you've picked up from your guru, Uri Avneri. You don't have proof for your contention from reliable non-biased sources.
Angie: "Because the Map obliged Sharon to stop the building of the wall..."
Is this your lie or Avneri's? The road map stipulates no such thing!!! Check it out! The wall isn't even mentioned in the road map!
In light of this lie, how should informed readers treat the rest of your "spiel"?
Angie: "We are looking at close to 40 years of oppressive, cruel occupation of the Palestinians, and the theft of their lands, and the destruction of their homes."
The Israeli control of the West Bank and Gaza strip has been on of the least oppressive and brutal in history, if not the least. And you know full well not the Palestinians' homes at large are demolished but rather their terrorists', you liar.
Angie: "Quite frankly we are tired, in fact, sick and tired, of the old time worn excuse that there would be peace if it were not for the leaders of the Palestinians especially Arafat. It's garbage, and you know it. "
You and you ilk are intent on averting your eyes from reality in order to blame Israel for certain things which are entirely out of her control. Get sick and tired all you want, because WE won't help you with it. Your determination to place the blame on the Palestinian leaders is sickening, whether you know it or not, and if you won't help improve the situation other than venting counterproductive anti-Israeli frustrations detached from reality here, I for one won't parrot that the trash you spout.
Angie: "Back in 1995/96 when Prime Minister Rabin was determined to work out a peace plan with an equally determined Yasser Arafat..."
Again one of Avneri's lies, huh?? Arafat NEVER gave a rat's ass on making progress toward real peace with Israel in its pre 6/1967 borders minus the "right of return".
Angie: "It's been the same from the beginning. Whenever there is the remotest chance of peace, Israel is the one to render it useless. "
You meant "the Palestinian leaders were the ones to render it useless.", unless you're in total denial of reality and insane.
Angie: "Despite those terms and conditions, Israel kept up its assassinations its daily incursions into Palestinian towns and cities, until the Palestinians responded with suicide bombers."
The Palestinians were to halt their terror, including suicide bombings, immediately at the outset but didn't do so. But you're expecting a country to abstain from protecting its citizens and not assassinate terrorists. What a wretched morality you possess.
Angie: "While we were hearing nothing much about the Israeli killings and incursions, we heard plenty about the suicide bombings, the propaganda machine, which is the israeli media, ensured that with help from the US like-minded media."
I guess your stupid characterization of the Israeli media is one more of Avneri's lies / canards. I reside in Israel, and fyi, the Israeli media is mostly leftwing slanted; if at all, it's a leftwing propaganda machine, as the Oslo process period from 1993-2000 proved (among other examples).
Angie: "Thus we get the impression that it was the militant groups who disrupted the peace process."
As well as Arafat.
Angie: "From the very beginning of the hudna Sharon and his military were determined would not last"
Sharon calls the shots for the military and the latter doesn't have an equal share in the decision process. But your wrong about Sharon, otherwise he would have sabotaged the Hudna from its very beginning, Avneri's opinions and lies notwithstanding.
Angie: "we hear now that Israel wants to "expel" Arafat from Ramallah, and what does this mean? It sure as hell doesn't mean from his compound or from Palestine. It means from this world. In other words, have him murdered. And I'm sure they will do it in such as way as to blame someone else (preferably an Arab) for so doing."
Did you hear this from Avneri? In any rate, why should the readers at large believe you? Do you have inside information I don't??
Angie: "We are, after all, becoming more and more familiar with the Israeli antics, having had so much experience with them over the years."
That's YOUR opinion heavily clouded by your anti Israeli bias.
Angie: "So let's not talk about anything as asinine as peace and a Palestinian state here. Ariel Sharon doesn't want it."
Sharon may not want a Palestinian state but I see no reason to conclude he wants no peace.
Angie: "After all, we've heard him prattle on enough about Abbas not doing enough to "rein in the militants", as if Sharon was busy "reining in" his murderous army."
You can always be counted on to excuse Abbas and the Pallys at large for their road map violation of having avoided dismantling their terror infrastructure and clamping down on their terrorists.
Angie: "And what is the wall all about but reduced borders; in fact, no borders. An enclave surrounded by Israeli territory is still a damn enclave"
The wall is about security for Israel and the main blocks of Jewish residents in the West Bank. Blame the enclave problem on the Palestinian leaders and terrorists or shut up.
Avneri's arguments in the excerpt you enclosed are unfounded balderdash.
Angie, you've wasted enough of my time so run along. I'm sick and tired of reading your lies, half truths and unfounded self-righteous anti-Israeli rhetoric, so please refrain from replying unless you can view reality without your Uri Avneri crutches!
No!!! The problem is the Palestinians themselves didn't want it, and you deliberately ignore this fact!!!
Angie: "the Oslo Accords (which Netanyahu deliberately left lying around for over three years)"
Wrong!!! He tried to make the Palestinians deliver on their undertakings after Israel had taken big strides in its own undertakings. This is what seemed to you and many others like a deliberate non-progress by Netanyahu. You also conveniently forgot Netanyahu signed the Wye accord and handed almost all Hebron to the PA.
Angie: "there is the Road Map (which Sharon never intended to accept despite his blatant lying to Bush et al)."
This is a lie you've picked up from your guru, Uri Avneri. You don't have proof for your contention from reliable non-biased sources.
Angie: "Because the Map obliged Sharon to stop the building of the wall..."
Is this your lie or Avneri's? The road map stipulates no such thing!!! Check it out! The wall isn't even mentioned in the road map!
In light of this lie, how should informed readers treat the rest of your "spiel"?
Angie: "We are looking at close to 40 years of oppressive, cruel occupation of the Palestinians, and the theft of their lands, and the destruction of their homes."
The Israeli control of the West Bank and Gaza strip has been on of the least oppressive and brutal in history, if not the least. And you know full well not the Palestinians' homes at large are demolished but rather their terrorists', you liar.
Angie: "Quite frankly we are tired, in fact, sick and tired, of the old time worn excuse that there would be peace if it were not for the leaders of the Palestinians especially Arafat. It's garbage, and you know it. "
You and you ilk are intent on averting your eyes from reality in order to blame Israel for certain things which are entirely out of her control. Get sick and tired all you want, because WE won't help you with it. Your determination to place the blame on the Palestinian leaders is sickening, whether you know it or not, and if you won't help improve the situation other than venting counterproductive anti-Israeli frustrations detached from reality here, I for one won't parrot that the trash you spout.
Angie: "Back in 1995/96 when Prime Minister Rabin was determined to work out a peace plan with an equally determined Yasser Arafat..."
Again one of Avneri's lies, huh?? Arafat NEVER gave a rat's ass on making progress toward real peace with Israel in its pre 6/1967 borders minus the "right of return".
Angie: "It's been the same from the beginning. Whenever there is the remotest chance of peace, Israel is the one to render it useless. "
You meant "the Palestinian leaders were the ones to render it useless.", unless you're in total denial of reality and insane.
Angie: "Despite those terms and conditions, Israel kept up its assassinations its daily incursions into Palestinian towns and cities, until the Palestinians responded with suicide bombers."
The Palestinians were to halt their terror, including suicide bombings, immediately at the outset but didn't do so. But you're expecting a country to abstain from protecting its citizens and not assassinate terrorists. What a wretched morality you possess.
Angie: "While we were hearing nothing much about the Israeli killings and incursions, we heard plenty about the suicide bombings, the propaganda machine, which is the israeli media, ensured that with help from the US like-minded media."
I guess your stupid characterization of the Israeli media is one more of Avneri's lies / canards. I reside in Israel, and fyi, the Israeli media is mostly leftwing slanted; if at all, it's a leftwing propaganda machine, as the Oslo process period from 1993-2000 proved (among other examples).
Angie: "Thus we get the impression that it was the militant groups who disrupted the peace process."
As well as Arafat.
Angie: "From the very beginning of the hudna Sharon and his military were determined would not last"
Sharon calls the shots for the military and the latter doesn't have an equal share in the decision process. But your wrong about Sharon, otherwise he would have sabotaged the Hudna from its very beginning, Avneri's opinions and lies notwithstanding.
Angie: "we hear now that Israel wants to "expel" Arafat from Ramallah, and what does this mean? It sure as hell doesn't mean from his compound or from Palestine. It means from this world. In other words, have him murdered. And I'm sure they will do it in such as way as to blame someone else (preferably an Arab) for so doing."
Did you hear this from Avneri? In any rate, why should the readers at large believe you? Do you have inside information I don't??
Angie: "We are, after all, becoming more and more familiar with the Israeli antics, having had so much experience with them over the years."
That's YOUR opinion heavily clouded by your anti Israeli bias.
Angie: "So let's not talk about anything as asinine as peace and a Palestinian state here. Ariel Sharon doesn't want it."
Sharon may not want a Palestinian state but I see no reason to conclude he wants no peace.
Angie: "After all, we've heard him prattle on enough about Abbas not doing enough to "rein in the militants", as if Sharon was busy "reining in" his murderous army."
You can always be counted on to excuse Abbas and the Pallys at large for their road map violation of having avoided dismantling their terror infrastructure and clamping down on their terrorists.
Angie: "And what is the wall all about but reduced borders; in fact, no borders. An enclave surrounded by Israeli territory is still a damn enclave"
The wall is about security for Israel and the main blocks of Jewish residents in the West Bank. Blame the enclave problem on the Palestinian leaders and terrorists or shut up.
Avneri's arguments in the excerpt you enclosed are unfounded balderdash.
Angie, you've wasted enough of my time so run along. I'm sick and tired of reading your lies, half truths and unfounded self-righteous anti-Israeli rhetoric, so please refrain from replying unless you can view reality without your Uri Avneri crutches!
"If the "average Israeli" wanted a Palestinian state for a "long time now", there would be one."
They do want one. They are much more reluctant when you start telling them an exact set of conditions (but then again that is always true that is what negotiations are for)
As I said earlier there is no need for you to "guess" or "infer" what the israelis or the palistinians think . To continue doing so in the face of facts is bad form.
"How much longer must the Palestinians wait? There was the Fourth Geneva Convention in 1949, the numerous UN resolutions, the Oslo Accords (which Netanyahu deliberately left lying around for over three years), there is the Road Map (which Sharon never intended to accept despite his blatant lying to Bush et al)."
The palistinians as noted above have a fairly all or nothing bargaining position. It is not just the israelis preventing these things from working.
" Not one of those obligations were carried out. Not one!"
Really? seems there has been some progress on those obligations (although not complete). anyway how about palestinians obligation not to kill isaelis under the road map? (or any other obligations they had have they followed through on anything?)
"Quite frankly we are tired, in fact, sick and tired, of the old time worn excuse that there would be peace if it were not for the leaders of the Palestinians especially Arafat. It's garbage, and you know it. An excellent excuse, of course, but garbage just the same."
- on what grounds do you say that it is garbage?
Back in 1995/96 when Prime Minister Rabin was determined to work out a peace plan with an equally determined Yasser Arafat, he was murdered for his efforts, and by a Jewish extremist, NOT a Palestinian.
That is one of the reasons why yasser arafat doesnt want to compromise - it is your own extreemists you have to be most scared of. anyway Barak was more liberal than rabin in terms of meeting an agreement as far as I know.
"until the Palestinians responded with suicide bombers."
The suicide bombers never stopped.
"Thus we get the impression that it was the militant groups who disrupted the peace process. Utter rot."
so suicide bombing "encourages" peace dose it?
how can you sit there seriously and say that militant groups are not disrupting peace by killing people??????? And yet just above that is pretty much what you did.
"It sure as hell doesn't mean from his compound or from Palestine. It means from this world. In other words, have him murdered."
Really? You have leaped to an assumption.
And I'm sure they will do it in such as way as to blame someone else (preferably an Arab) for so doing.
No the point is YOU would blame israel no matter who did it. I can see you preparing to do that already. I dont blame hamas for rabin dying but if hamas killed arafat you'd be all over israel probably. (crazy) This "it is israels fault" permiates all of your points which means that thy hold no weight at all since you cannot support your basic assumption that israel is behind everything bad.
"So let's not talk about anything as asinine as peace and a Palestinian state here. Ariel Sharon doesn't want it."
Sharon wont be head of the government for ever especially if the terrorism slows down and israel is given a chance to elect a labour leader. Wait for that if you want. Arafat on the other hand could lead palestine for another few decades
" An enclave surrounded by Israeli territory is still a damn enclave, and it cannot, or must not, be allowed to pass as a state."
Are you promising to deny the palistinians a state unless it looks exactly like you want it to?
"Go talk to your people, Ralph. This is not, nor has it ever been, as you want us to believe. Or why don't you try living in an enclave surrounded by a racist state, and see if you would refer to it as 'a state". I doubt that, my friend."
The suggestion that you would refuse a state because it is too small or doesnt have enough land et etc... Anyway East Timor is a state isnt it? Indonesia is kinda racist (towards javaneese) hmm you want timor to surrender its statehood and restart terrorism?
They do want one. They are much more reluctant when you start telling them an exact set of conditions (but then again that is always true that is what negotiations are for)
As I said earlier there is no need for you to "guess" or "infer" what the israelis or the palistinians think . To continue doing so in the face of facts is bad form.
"How much longer must the Palestinians wait? There was the Fourth Geneva Convention in 1949, the numerous UN resolutions, the Oslo Accords (which Netanyahu deliberately left lying around for over three years), there is the Road Map (which Sharon never intended to accept despite his blatant lying to Bush et al)."
The palistinians as noted above have a fairly all or nothing bargaining position. It is not just the israelis preventing these things from working.
" Not one of those obligations were carried out. Not one!"
Really? seems there has been some progress on those obligations (although not complete). anyway how about palestinians obligation not to kill isaelis under the road map? (or any other obligations they had have they followed through on anything?)
"Quite frankly we are tired, in fact, sick and tired, of the old time worn excuse that there would be peace if it were not for the leaders of the Palestinians especially Arafat. It's garbage, and you know it. An excellent excuse, of course, but garbage just the same."
- on what grounds do you say that it is garbage?
Back in 1995/96 when Prime Minister Rabin was determined to work out a peace plan with an equally determined Yasser Arafat, he was murdered for his efforts, and by a Jewish extremist, NOT a Palestinian.
That is one of the reasons why yasser arafat doesnt want to compromise - it is your own extreemists you have to be most scared of. anyway Barak was more liberal than rabin in terms of meeting an agreement as far as I know.
"until the Palestinians responded with suicide bombers."
The suicide bombers never stopped.
"Thus we get the impression that it was the militant groups who disrupted the peace process. Utter rot."
so suicide bombing "encourages" peace dose it?
how can you sit there seriously and say that militant groups are not disrupting peace by killing people??????? And yet just above that is pretty much what you did.
"It sure as hell doesn't mean from his compound or from Palestine. It means from this world. In other words, have him murdered."
Really? You have leaped to an assumption.
And I'm sure they will do it in such as way as to blame someone else (preferably an Arab) for so doing.
No the point is YOU would blame israel no matter who did it. I can see you preparing to do that already. I dont blame hamas for rabin dying but if hamas killed arafat you'd be all over israel probably. (crazy) This "it is israels fault" permiates all of your points which means that thy hold no weight at all since you cannot support your basic assumption that israel is behind everything bad.
"So let's not talk about anything as asinine as peace and a Palestinian state here. Ariel Sharon doesn't want it."
Sharon wont be head of the government for ever especially if the terrorism slows down and israel is given a chance to elect a labour leader. Wait for that if you want. Arafat on the other hand could lead palestine for another few decades
" An enclave surrounded by Israeli territory is still a damn enclave, and it cannot, or must not, be allowed to pass as a state."
Are you promising to deny the palistinians a state unless it looks exactly like you want it to?
"Go talk to your people, Ralph. This is not, nor has it ever been, as you want us to believe. Or why don't you try living in an enclave surrounded by a racist state, and see if you would refer to it as 'a state". I doubt that, my friend."
The suggestion that you would refuse a state because it is too small or doesnt have enough land et etc... Anyway East Timor is a state isnt it? Indonesia is kinda racist (towards javaneese) hmm you want timor to surrender its statehood and restart terrorism?
Oh that post certainly inspired the rebuttals.
If Israel really wanted Peace and to do the right thing…
Why has the Population of the settlements gone from some 100,000 in the early 1990s to over 300,000 today…and the Number of these settlement have increased by over 40???
Shouldn’t the Population of these settlement be going down instead of up if we are looking forward to this Palestinian State (The Road Map) with reasonable borders???
Israel: We have to confiscate Palestinian land and demolish Palestinian homes because there are suicide bombers???
Palestine: We have to defend ourselves because Israel is slowly confiscating all our land and demolishing our homes. We have no military to defend ourselves and our land. If we do nothing, we will soon have nothing at all???
To end the resistance to the Occupation you have to end the Occupation that allows for the resistance….
To end the cycle of violence We need the Palestinian State now so that the Palestinian People have a reason to stop their fight for freedom...
CLICK HERE > http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1618616.php
Why has the Population of the settlements gone from some 100,000 in the early 1990s to over 300,000 today…and the Number of these settlement have increased by over 40???
Shouldn’t the Population of these settlement be going down instead of up if we are looking forward to this Palestinian State (The Road Map) with reasonable borders???
Israel: We have to confiscate Palestinian land and demolish Palestinian homes because there are suicide bombers???
Palestine: We have to defend ourselves because Israel is slowly confiscating all our land and demolishing our homes. We have no military to defend ourselves and our land. If we do nothing, we will soon have nothing at all???
To end the resistance to the Occupation you have to end the Occupation that allows for the resistance….
To end the cycle of violence We need the Palestinian State now so that the Palestinian People have a reason to stop their fight for freedom...
CLICK HERE > http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1618616.php
If I really wanted Peace and to do the right thing…
Why am I complaining that the Population of the settlements has gone from some 100,000 in the early 1990s to over 300,000 today…and the Number of these settlement have increased by over 40 over and over and over???
Shouldn’t the Population of these settlements be going down instead of up if we are looking forward to this Palestinian State (The Road Map) with Reasonable Borders??? I don't know...
Israel: We have to confiscate Palestinian land and demolish homes of Palestinian terrorists because we have given these people tons of chances to make an agreement but the Palestinians are the dumbest people on earth.
Palestine: We have to defend ourselves because we are stupid and don't understand that attacking Israel doesn't help us. Even cats and dogs learn not to do things that hurt them, so why do the Paslestinians continue attacking Israel when all it achieves is Israel won't be able to trust them with land control????
The era of terror is past, We can not expect to terrorize millions of Jewish People and still have peace.
To end the Resistance to the Occupation it's not even enough to end the Occupation that ostenibly allows for the Resistance…. The Jews must get out of Israel too....
To end the cycle of violence We need the Palestinian State Eventually so that the Palestinian People have a reason to stop their fight for "freedom"...for an impossible solution...
CLICK HERE > http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1618616.php
Why am I complaining that the Population of the settlements has gone from some 100,000 in the early 1990s to over 300,000 today…and the Number of these settlement have increased by over 40 over and over and over???
Shouldn’t the Population of these settlements be going down instead of up if we are looking forward to this Palestinian State (The Road Map) with Reasonable Borders??? I don't know...
Israel: We have to confiscate Palestinian land and demolish homes of Palestinian terrorists because we have given these people tons of chances to make an agreement but the Palestinians are the dumbest people on earth.
Palestine: We have to defend ourselves because we are stupid and don't understand that attacking Israel doesn't help us. Even cats and dogs learn not to do things that hurt them, so why do the Paslestinians continue attacking Israel when all it achieves is Israel won't be able to trust them with land control????
The era of terror is past, We can not expect to terrorize millions of Jewish People and still have peace.
To end the Resistance to the Occupation it's not even enough to end the Occupation that ostenibly allows for the Resistance…. The Jews must get out of Israel too....
To end the cycle of violence We need the Palestinian State Eventually so that the Palestinian People have a reason to stop their fight for "freedom"...for an impossible solution...
CLICK HERE > http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1618616.php
Don't you think that your above post in response to my earlier comments is a little over the top, even for you?
If Israel really wanted Peace and to do the right thing…
Why has the Population of the settlements gone from some 100,000 in the early 1990s to over 300,000 today…and the Number of these settlement have increased by over 40???
Shouldn’t the Population of these settlement be going down instead of up if we are looking forward to this Palestinian State (The Road Map) with reasonable borders???
Israel: We have to confiscate Palestinian land and demolish Palestinian homes because there are suicide bombers???
Palestine: We have to defend ourselves because Israel is slowly confiscating all our land and demolishing our homes. We have no military to defend ourselves and our land. If we do nothing, we will soon have nothing at all???
To end the resistance to the Occupation you have to end the Occupation that allows for the resistance….
To end the cycle of violence We need the Palestinian State now so that the Palestinian People have a reason to stop their fight for freedom...
CLICK HERE > http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1618616.php
P.S. to ANGEL imposter, Why don't you try posing under your own handle that way people can take you seriously...Do you have a problem with composing your own comments?? So that people who agree with you can let you know...and people who disagree with me can let me know....
Does it not bother you that Israel is committing such atrocities towards the Palestinian People...
Why has the Population of the settlements gone from some 100,000 in the early 1990s to over 300,000 today…and the Number of these settlement have increased by over 40???
Shouldn’t the Population of these settlement be going down instead of up if we are looking forward to this Palestinian State (The Road Map) with reasonable borders???
Israel: We have to confiscate Palestinian land and demolish Palestinian homes because there are suicide bombers???
Palestine: We have to defend ourselves because Israel is slowly confiscating all our land and demolishing our homes. We have no military to defend ourselves and our land. If we do nothing, we will soon have nothing at all???
To end the resistance to the Occupation you have to end the Occupation that allows for the resistance….
To end the cycle of violence We need the Palestinian State now so that the Palestinian People have a reason to stop their fight for freedom...
CLICK HERE > http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1618616.php
P.S. to ANGEL imposter, Why don't you try posing under your own handle that way people can take you seriously...Do you have a problem with composing your own comments?? So that people who agree with you can let you know...and people who disagree with me can let me know....
Does it not bother you that Israel is committing such atrocities towards the Palestinian People...
My friend,
I have spent most of the late night here submitting denials re idiotic posts attributed to myself, and i know certainly that you have been enduring much of the same thing for a while now.
Don't let it bother you (I'm a fine one to talk, in tears here). Everyone who has read your stuff in the past is aware of what you believe in. Hopefully those that read my stuff know what I believe in.
Let them do their damnest! Just don't let them stop you from submitting your posts.
I have spent most of the late night here submitting denials re idiotic posts attributed to myself, and i know certainly that you have been enduring much of the same thing for a while now.
Don't let it bother you (I'm a fine one to talk, in tears here). Everyone who has read your stuff in the past is aware of what you believe in. Hopefully those that read my stuff know what I believe in.
Let them do their damnest! Just don't let them stop you from submitting your posts.
Angie
What do you mean by "over the top"?
What do you mean by "over the top"?
I did not post the above message from 11:22 PM.
""Peace to the Palestinian People
by ANGEL Sunday September 07, 2003 at 12:07 AM""(not the real ANGEL, was posted by a Coward who is afraid to use his/her handle or How sad that he/she must be mentally deficient and can not post his/her own rebuttal to a posting).
Apologies to everybody...
Correction:
If I really wanted Peace and to do the right thing…
Why am I complaining that the Population of the settlements has gone from some 100,000 in the early 1990s to over 300,000 today…and the Number of these settlement have increased by over 40 over and over and over???
Shouldn’t the Population of these settlements be going down instead of up if we are looking forward to this Palestinian State (The Road Map) with Reasonable Borders??? I don't know...
Israel: We have to confiscate Palestinian land and demolish homes of Palestinian terrorists because we have given these people tons of chances to make an agreement but the Palestinians are the dumbest people on earth.
Palestine: We have to defend ourselves because we are stupid and don't understand that attacking Israel doesn't help us. Even cats and dogs learn not to do things that hurt them, so why do the Paslestinians continue attacking Israel when all it achieves is Israel won't be able to trust them with land control????
The era of terror is past, We can not expect to terrorize millions of Jewish People and still have peace.
To end the Resistance to the Occupation it's not even enough to end the Occupation that ostenibly allows for the Resistance…. The Jews must get out of Israel too....
To end the cycle of violence We need the Palestinian State Eventually so that the Palestinian People have a reason to stop their fight for "freedom" (in reality, terrorism)...for an impossible solution...
CLICK HERE > http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1618616.php
P.S. to ANGEL imposter, Why don't you try posing under your own handle that way people can take you seriously...Do you have a problem with composing your own comments?? So that people who agree with you can let you know...and people who disagree with me can let me know....
Does it not bother you that the Palestinians are constantly committing atrocities towards the Israeli People, and that I'm a thick headed troll???
""Peace to the Palestinian People
by ANGEL Sunday September 07, 2003 at 12:07 AM""(not the real ANGEL, was posted by a Coward who is afraid to use his/her handle or How sad that he/she must be mentally deficient and can not post his/her own rebuttal to a posting).
Apologies to everybody...
Correction:
If I really wanted Peace and to do the right thing…
Why am I complaining that the Population of the settlements has gone from some 100,000 in the early 1990s to over 300,000 today…and the Number of these settlement have increased by over 40 over and over and over???
Shouldn’t the Population of these settlements be going down instead of up if we are looking forward to this Palestinian State (The Road Map) with Reasonable Borders??? I don't know...
Israel: We have to confiscate Palestinian land and demolish homes of Palestinian terrorists because we have given these people tons of chances to make an agreement but the Palestinians are the dumbest people on earth.
Palestine: We have to defend ourselves because we are stupid and don't understand that attacking Israel doesn't help us. Even cats and dogs learn not to do things that hurt them, so why do the Paslestinians continue attacking Israel when all it achieves is Israel won't be able to trust them with land control????
The era of terror is past, We can not expect to terrorize millions of Jewish People and still have peace.
To end the Resistance to the Occupation it's not even enough to end the Occupation that ostenibly allows for the Resistance…. The Jews must get out of Israel too....
To end the cycle of violence We need the Palestinian State Eventually so that the Palestinian People have a reason to stop their fight for "freedom" (in reality, terrorism)...for an impossible solution...
CLICK HERE > http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1618616.php
P.S. to ANGEL imposter, Why don't you try posing under your own handle that way people can take you seriously...Do you have a problem with composing your own comments?? So that people who agree with you can let you know...and people who disagree with me can let me know....
Does it not bother you that the Palestinians are constantly committing atrocities towards the Israeli People, and that I'm a thick headed troll???
It would appear that whoever is impersonating Angel is one bleeding sick excuse for humanity. You are not fooling anyone, so give it up, and get a life.
Seems to me that ANGEL is mentally disturbed and suffers from a severe Obssessive Compulsive Disorder, because s/he seems more pro-Israeli than his/her first posts suggest. In any rate. at least s/he corrects him/herself.
Anyway, could you stop babbling about impersonators and try rationally responding to the points I made in my Sep 06, 2003 at 01:16 PM post and Scottie's below?
Anyway, could you stop babbling about impersonators and try rationally responding to the points I made in my Sep 06, 2003 at 01:16 PM post and Scottie's below?
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