Publish to Newswire
Add an EventFrom the Open-Publishing Calendar
From the Open-Publishing Newswire
Indybay Feature
Prominent Israeli History Professor, Ilan Pappe Praises Jenin Book
Despite a year of a ceaseless attempts by the Israeli government and media to discount the war crimes committed in the refugee camp of Jenin in April, 2002, the truth of what many believe to have been a massacre, has forced itself on the conscience of humanity in a forceful and compelling way. Many believe that “Searching Jenin: Eyewitness Accounts of the Israeli Invasion”, edited by Ramzy Baroud, with a preface by Noam Chomsky, played a key role in reversing the tide, by presenting a worthy challenge to the Israeli depiction of what happened there.
Pappe, the Director of the International Relations Division at Haifa University in Israel, was the first Israeli scholar to publicly take a stance on the material contained in the book.
Prominent Israeli Professor, Ilan Pappe Praises Jenin Book: ‘This May Be the Most Authoritative Report We Will Ever Get’
Only a few months after its publishing “Searching Jenin” stirred a controversy that extended to radio talk shows and universities in United States, the United Kingdom, South Africa, and throughout the entire world. The book was recently reviewed by one of the most notable and respected Israeli academics, Professor Ilan Pappe. Pappe, the Director of the International Relations Division at Haifa University in Israel, was the first Israeli scholar to publicly take a stance on the material contained in the book. The Palestine Chronicle, the editors and publishers of this book are indebted to Professor Pappe, for his courage and truthfulness. They also wish to thank all of those who were involved in making this effort so successful. We are deeply grateful for all of you.
Over a year has passed now, since the Israeli army invaded the refugee camp in Jenin, destroyed its houses, killed many of its inhabitants and committed one of the worst war crimes in this present Intifada, Intifada al-Aqsa. With a successful campaign of distortion and manipulation of evidence, the Israeli foreign ministry, with the help of the United States, succeeded in hiding from the world the horrors of Jenin, and even worse, in intimidating anyone daring to tell the truth about what had happened there.
This is the great significance and enormous importance of this book. “Searching Jenin” is the first systematic account, through eyewitness reports, on the events in April 2002. Two other books appeared in Arabic, but this is the first one in English It puts the events in context and it highlights the true nature of the crime, while not falling into the pitfall laid by the Israelis who succeeded in drawing the UN inquiry commission into supposedly academic discussion of how to describe a massacre. As comes out vividly from this book, Jenin was not just a massacre, it was an inhuman act of unimaginable barbarism.
Noam Chomsky, in his introduction to the book, puts it in the context of crimes sponsored by America and he is someone who recorded meticulously these crimes in the past. Ramzy Baroud, in his preface, notes rightly that the book will not answer the question of how many people were killed, nor will it cover every aspect of the crime. But it does convey the message, as one of the witnesses put it that, ‘what I have seen are crimes; sometimes greater than an earthquake’. And this is not just an impression, as this book makes it all too clear: every aspect of the Israeli actions in Jenin can easily be identified as war crimes, according to the Hague convention.
Testimonies like the ones presented do not only help to shed light on many of the chapters hidden by the Israeli screening and news’ manipulation, it also brings forcefully the emotions, sounds and smells of the catastrophe. The pain is still there in those telling the stories. The book conveys the lingering agony through the italic interventions of the editors. Through them, we learn that while witnesses recall the horror of April 2002, like Hussein Hammad, they have to stop several times – sometimes to repose and occasionally to weep, before able to resume, like Hammad does, their stories.
Sometimes the testimonies, at first glance, seem not to tell enough – as if the survivors wish to repress the horror rather then tell it in full. But the economy of words reveals quite often, even more about what had happened. Rafidia al-Jamal is very laconic in a way, in her testimony, but the full extent of the atrocity comes out in a very short sentence she utters. This is the case when she describes how she prevented desperately her husband - who had saved her life a moment earlier – from searching after his sister. “Don’t go” I told him, “She is Dead”. And then she reports dryly: ‘my children have nightmares’.
Other witnesses, especially mothers, feel the need to expand when it comes to their children’s nightmares. Each with her own way of coping with the persisting torment of their children. Mothers all over the West Bank, and not only in Jenin a year after the massacre, spent sleepless nights with terrified children who witnessed the brutality at first hand. In Jenin, Farid and Ali Hawashin are such typical victims of continued nightmares of fear, that according to their mother, haunt them even during daylight. For them it is mainly the noise the disturbs their peace of mind: that of the loudspeaker that arrived near midnight at their home, that of the brutal burst into the house, that of the men pleading with the soldiers before being thrown out to the street, and then, worst of all, that of shots, the groaning of wounded and the silence of the dead. Noise and death repeat themselves in the memories of everyone in this book.
With these memories of sound and vision, the search for Jenin continues throughout this powerful document. It is a search for truth, but for other things as well. It is a search for loved ones unaccounted for, long after the massacre ended, and then there is a search for a remedy to the pain of the nightmare, and these searches were far more important than the question of how many exactly died in Jenin. Even without this question being answered, there is a sense that this is the most authoritative report we will ever get.
Each reader will take something different from this book. For me as an Israeli, I find the description of the soldiers’ conduct the most disturbing and most convincing part of the evidence. It is a story of the dehumanization that raged in Jenin. This is so well epitomized in the chronicles of Nidal Abu al-Hayjah as reported by Ihab Ayadi. After Nidal was wounded and lay crying for help, anyone who tried to come to his rescue was shot by Israeli snipers. He bled to death as so many others. Technically, he was not massacred, he was tortured to death. The deadly precision of the snipers as a means of deterring rescue operations is being reported in other testimonies in this book, such as that of Taha Zbyde, who was killed eventually by a sniper. This mode of action was and still is enacted wherever there is an Israeli operation in the occupied territories. It is part of the vicious repertoire of the inhuman occupation – the daily physical harassment and mental abuse at checkpoints, the prevention from pregnant mothers or the wounded to get to hospitals, the starvation and the confiscation of water. No wonder some Israelis felt this brings back memories from the darker days of the Second World War. I remembered Anna Frank’s diary when I read Um Sirri’s horrorific recollection of how women tried to swallow a cough that irritated the Israeli soldiers standing above them, pointing their loaded guns at them.
But there are ways of opposing the inhumanity of the occupier. This is why mothers in this collection talk proudly of babies born after the massacre. The expectant young Sana al-Sani decided to call her baby, if it is a girl, ‘Zuhur’, which means ‘flowers’. This wish is expressed in the book after Sana recalls one of the most horrid memories brought in this collection. Her husband was slaughtered on his house’s doorsteps, and yet it is not revenge or retribution that guides Sana, but a dream of having a different kind of life.
But can flowers such as Sana’s daughter flourish once more in the ‘camp of martyrs’ as the survivors called what was once their home? The flowers will have to overcome the desolation and bareness. Most of the houses were destroyed during the invasion. The Israeli army, after it expelled the resistance forces, located its artillery near the mosque and shelled the camp indiscriminately. Moreover, for blooming to take place where death once reigned, the smell would have to evaporate first. An American volunteer, Jennifer Lowenstein, until today can not sleep as the odor of death still troubles her nights and the nights of those few westerners, who gave evidence in this book, and who were fortunate enough not to be killed. They helped to tell the world the truth of what had happened. One of them is Tevor Baumgartner, who is the one who revealed the existence of mass graves, an allegation that was refuted early on in the Israeli denial, a denial that was so eagerly accepted by the United States.
This is a must, albeit a very difficult, reading. The campaign against the continued dehumanization of the Palestinians in the occupied territories can not be based on slogans and general accusations. There is a need for indictments such as one provided here, which will hopefully very soon arise enough public indignation so as to vie governments around the world to take acting to save the Palestinian people before it is too late.
“Searching Jenin: Eyewitness Accounts of the Israeli Invasion” is now available and can be obtained through http://www.palestinebooks.com
For more information, please contact our managing editor, Suzanne Russ: Russ [at] PalestineChronicle.com
Ilan Pappe is a prominent Israeli academic and the Director of International Relations Division, Haifa University
Prominent Israeli Professor, Ilan Pappe Praises Jenin Book: ‘This May Be the Most Authoritative Report We Will Ever Get’
Only a few months after its publishing “Searching Jenin” stirred a controversy that extended to radio talk shows and universities in United States, the United Kingdom, South Africa, and throughout the entire world. The book was recently reviewed by one of the most notable and respected Israeli academics, Professor Ilan Pappe. Pappe, the Director of the International Relations Division at Haifa University in Israel, was the first Israeli scholar to publicly take a stance on the material contained in the book. The Palestine Chronicle, the editors and publishers of this book are indebted to Professor Pappe, for his courage and truthfulness. They also wish to thank all of those who were involved in making this effort so successful. We are deeply grateful for all of you.
Over a year has passed now, since the Israeli army invaded the refugee camp in Jenin, destroyed its houses, killed many of its inhabitants and committed one of the worst war crimes in this present Intifada, Intifada al-Aqsa. With a successful campaign of distortion and manipulation of evidence, the Israeli foreign ministry, with the help of the United States, succeeded in hiding from the world the horrors of Jenin, and even worse, in intimidating anyone daring to tell the truth about what had happened there.
This is the great significance and enormous importance of this book. “Searching Jenin” is the first systematic account, through eyewitness reports, on the events in April 2002. Two other books appeared in Arabic, but this is the first one in English It puts the events in context and it highlights the true nature of the crime, while not falling into the pitfall laid by the Israelis who succeeded in drawing the UN inquiry commission into supposedly academic discussion of how to describe a massacre. As comes out vividly from this book, Jenin was not just a massacre, it was an inhuman act of unimaginable barbarism.
Noam Chomsky, in his introduction to the book, puts it in the context of crimes sponsored by America and he is someone who recorded meticulously these crimes in the past. Ramzy Baroud, in his preface, notes rightly that the book will not answer the question of how many people were killed, nor will it cover every aspect of the crime. But it does convey the message, as one of the witnesses put it that, ‘what I have seen are crimes; sometimes greater than an earthquake’. And this is not just an impression, as this book makes it all too clear: every aspect of the Israeli actions in Jenin can easily be identified as war crimes, according to the Hague convention.
Testimonies like the ones presented do not only help to shed light on many of the chapters hidden by the Israeli screening and news’ manipulation, it also brings forcefully the emotions, sounds and smells of the catastrophe. The pain is still there in those telling the stories. The book conveys the lingering agony through the italic interventions of the editors. Through them, we learn that while witnesses recall the horror of April 2002, like Hussein Hammad, they have to stop several times – sometimes to repose and occasionally to weep, before able to resume, like Hammad does, their stories.
Sometimes the testimonies, at first glance, seem not to tell enough – as if the survivors wish to repress the horror rather then tell it in full. But the economy of words reveals quite often, even more about what had happened. Rafidia al-Jamal is very laconic in a way, in her testimony, but the full extent of the atrocity comes out in a very short sentence she utters. This is the case when she describes how she prevented desperately her husband - who had saved her life a moment earlier – from searching after his sister. “Don’t go” I told him, “She is Dead”. And then she reports dryly: ‘my children have nightmares’.
Other witnesses, especially mothers, feel the need to expand when it comes to their children’s nightmares. Each with her own way of coping with the persisting torment of their children. Mothers all over the West Bank, and not only in Jenin a year after the massacre, spent sleepless nights with terrified children who witnessed the brutality at first hand. In Jenin, Farid and Ali Hawashin are such typical victims of continued nightmares of fear, that according to their mother, haunt them even during daylight. For them it is mainly the noise the disturbs their peace of mind: that of the loudspeaker that arrived near midnight at their home, that of the brutal burst into the house, that of the men pleading with the soldiers before being thrown out to the street, and then, worst of all, that of shots, the groaning of wounded and the silence of the dead. Noise and death repeat themselves in the memories of everyone in this book.
With these memories of sound and vision, the search for Jenin continues throughout this powerful document. It is a search for truth, but for other things as well. It is a search for loved ones unaccounted for, long after the massacre ended, and then there is a search for a remedy to the pain of the nightmare, and these searches were far more important than the question of how many exactly died in Jenin. Even without this question being answered, there is a sense that this is the most authoritative report we will ever get.
Each reader will take something different from this book. For me as an Israeli, I find the description of the soldiers’ conduct the most disturbing and most convincing part of the evidence. It is a story of the dehumanization that raged in Jenin. This is so well epitomized in the chronicles of Nidal Abu al-Hayjah as reported by Ihab Ayadi. After Nidal was wounded and lay crying for help, anyone who tried to come to his rescue was shot by Israeli snipers. He bled to death as so many others. Technically, he was not massacred, he was tortured to death. The deadly precision of the snipers as a means of deterring rescue operations is being reported in other testimonies in this book, such as that of Taha Zbyde, who was killed eventually by a sniper. This mode of action was and still is enacted wherever there is an Israeli operation in the occupied territories. It is part of the vicious repertoire of the inhuman occupation – the daily physical harassment and mental abuse at checkpoints, the prevention from pregnant mothers or the wounded to get to hospitals, the starvation and the confiscation of water. No wonder some Israelis felt this brings back memories from the darker days of the Second World War. I remembered Anna Frank’s diary when I read Um Sirri’s horrorific recollection of how women tried to swallow a cough that irritated the Israeli soldiers standing above them, pointing their loaded guns at them.
But there are ways of opposing the inhumanity of the occupier. This is why mothers in this collection talk proudly of babies born after the massacre. The expectant young Sana al-Sani decided to call her baby, if it is a girl, ‘Zuhur’, which means ‘flowers’. This wish is expressed in the book after Sana recalls one of the most horrid memories brought in this collection. Her husband was slaughtered on his house’s doorsteps, and yet it is not revenge or retribution that guides Sana, but a dream of having a different kind of life.
But can flowers such as Sana’s daughter flourish once more in the ‘camp of martyrs’ as the survivors called what was once their home? The flowers will have to overcome the desolation and bareness. Most of the houses were destroyed during the invasion. The Israeli army, after it expelled the resistance forces, located its artillery near the mosque and shelled the camp indiscriminately. Moreover, for blooming to take place where death once reigned, the smell would have to evaporate first. An American volunteer, Jennifer Lowenstein, until today can not sleep as the odor of death still troubles her nights and the nights of those few westerners, who gave evidence in this book, and who were fortunate enough not to be killed. They helped to tell the world the truth of what had happened. One of them is Tevor Baumgartner, who is the one who revealed the existence of mass graves, an allegation that was refuted early on in the Israeli denial, a denial that was so eagerly accepted by the United States.
This is a must, albeit a very difficult, reading. The campaign against the continued dehumanization of the Palestinians in the occupied territories can not be based on slogans and general accusations. There is a need for indictments such as one provided here, which will hopefully very soon arise enough public indignation so as to vie governments around the world to take acting to save the Palestinian people before it is too late.
“Searching Jenin: Eyewitness Accounts of the Israeli Invasion” is now available and can be obtained through http://www.palestinebooks.com
For more information, please contact our managing editor, Suzanne Russ: Russ [at] PalestineChronicle.com
Ilan Pappe is a prominent Israeli academic and the Director of International Relations Division, Haifa University
For more information:
http://www.palestinechronicle.com/article....
Add Your Comments
Comments
(Hide Comments)
Please Help the Palestinian People...
They have suffered more then their share under the brutal occupation and oppression by the Israeli Government...
Palestinian State NOW!!
West Bank and Gaza are only 22% of what is TODAY, Israel, West Bank and Gaza.
PLEASE LOOK AT THE MAP IN THE FOLLOWING WEB PAGE:
The Orange areas are Israeli settlements in the already small 22% that is West Bank and Gaza. What kind of carved up mess will the Palestinian State be unless all the settlements are removed (which will probably never happen) or just make the settlements part of the New Palestinian State (which can happen right now)??
CLICK HERE > http://mondediplo.com/maps/IMG/artoff3260.jpg
For there to be Peace and for there to be a reason for the Palestinian People to stop their fight for Freedom:
We need a Palestinian State with Reasonable Border NOW...
Send in a Joint, U.S., U.N. Peace keeping Force to the West Bank and Gaza for the sole purpose of trying to avoid conflicts between the Palestinian and the settlers..
Then have the Biased (biased because they will always be on the side of the settlers) Israeli Military retreat to the pre 1967 Israeli Borders, They can then concentrate their effort on guarding this Border..
(MAHMOUD ABBAS HAS SAID MORE THEN ONCE THAT HE WANTS U.S. OBSERVERS THERE, THAT IS THE ONLY WAY, THAT THE TRUTH OF WHAT IS REALLY OCCURRING WILL BE BELIEVED BY THE U.S. GOVERNMENT.)
Example of a possible solution:
SET THE BORDERS BACK TO 1967...
In return the Refugees have no Right of Return inside the 1967 Israeli Borders..
One complaint that Israel has is that the Right of Return will result in two Palestinian States, (The Right of return is almost impossible any way because the land and homes they lost are now built up with Jewish homes businesses etc…)
The Refugees can be helped to settle somewhere in the new Palestinian State..
The Settlements are now part of Palestine...
If the some 300,000 Israeli Settlers living in Palestine do not like living there, they can move to Israel...
If the 1,000,000 or so Palestinians who now live in Israel do not like living in Israel, they can move to Palestine...
If 1,000,000 or so Palestinians can live in Israel, then some 300,000 Israeli Settlers can live in Palestine if they choose to stay..
If you take Israel, West Bank and Gaza, West Bank and Gaza is only 22% of the total area in Question, This small amount is not too much to ask for millions of Palestinians who must have their freedom to have a peaceful life.
If this solution was implemented there is a good chance the so called terrorist (seen as freedom fighters by the oppressed Palestinian People) would stop their fight, if not they would be very foolish because then Israel would have a just cause to fight back and the U.S. would have a just cause to help Israel fight back.
Otherwise we will continue to have:
Israel: We have to confiscate Palestinian land and demolish Palestinian homes because there are suicide bombers???
Palestine: We have to defend ourselves because Israel is slowly confiscating all our land and demolishing our homes. We have no military to defend ourselves and our land. If we do nothing, we will soon have nothing at all???
The era of colonization is past,. We can not expect to oppress millions of Palestinian People and still have peace.
They have suffered more then their share under the brutal occupation and oppression by the Israeli Government...
Palestinian State NOW!!
West Bank and Gaza are only 22% of what is TODAY, Israel, West Bank and Gaza.
PLEASE LOOK AT THE MAP IN THE FOLLOWING WEB PAGE:
The Orange areas are Israeli settlements in the already small 22% that is West Bank and Gaza. What kind of carved up mess will the Palestinian State be unless all the settlements are removed (which will probably never happen) or just make the settlements part of the New Palestinian State (which can happen right now)??
CLICK HERE > http://mondediplo.com/maps/IMG/artoff3260.jpg
For there to be Peace and for there to be a reason for the Palestinian People to stop their fight for Freedom:
We need a Palestinian State with Reasonable Border NOW...
Send in a Joint, U.S., U.N. Peace keeping Force to the West Bank and Gaza for the sole purpose of trying to avoid conflicts between the Palestinian and the settlers..
Then have the Biased (biased because they will always be on the side of the settlers) Israeli Military retreat to the pre 1967 Israeli Borders, They can then concentrate their effort on guarding this Border..
(MAHMOUD ABBAS HAS SAID MORE THEN ONCE THAT HE WANTS U.S. OBSERVERS THERE, THAT IS THE ONLY WAY, THAT THE TRUTH OF WHAT IS REALLY OCCURRING WILL BE BELIEVED BY THE U.S. GOVERNMENT.)
Example of a possible solution:
SET THE BORDERS BACK TO 1967...
In return the Refugees have no Right of Return inside the 1967 Israeli Borders..
One complaint that Israel has is that the Right of Return will result in two Palestinian States, (The Right of return is almost impossible any way because the land and homes they lost are now built up with Jewish homes businesses etc…)
The Refugees can be helped to settle somewhere in the new Palestinian State..
The Settlements are now part of Palestine...
If the some 300,000 Israeli Settlers living in Palestine do not like living there, they can move to Israel...
If the 1,000,000 or so Palestinians who now live in Israel do not like living in Israel, they can move to Palestine...
If 1,000,000 or so Palestinians can live in Israel, then some 300,000 Israeli Settlers can live in Palestine if they choose to stay..
If you take Israel, West Bank and Gaza, West Bank and Gaza is only 22% of the total area in Question, This small amount is not too much to ask for millions of Palestinians who must have their freedom to have a peaceful life.
If this solution was implemented there is a good chance the so called terrorist (seen as freedom fighters by the oppressed Palestinian People) would stop their fight, if not they would be very foolish because then Israel would have a just cause to fight back and the U.S. would have a just cause to help Israel fight back.
Otherwise we will continue to have:
Israel: We have to confiscate Palestinian land and demolish Palestinian homes because there are suicide bombers???
Palestine: We have to defend ourselves because Israel is slowly confiscating all our land and demolishing our homes. We have no military to defend ourselves and our land. If we do nothing, we will soon have nothing at all???
The era of colonization is past,. We can not expect to oppress millions of Palestinian People and still have peace.
Hey, how perfectly unexpected! A story about Jenin! Just what I was hoping for!
Yesterday in a fine rage here I vowed that Jenin is not going "quietly into the night, now or ever". I'm more determined than I was twenty-four hours ago after reading the above.
Appropos of nothing at all, I hope llan Pappe comes to no harm as a result of his comments.
When DEAR URI criticized the infamous "Kibieh" massacre in 1954, he had both his hands broken for his efforts. I kid you not! And he, bless him, a Jew living in Israel! Now that tells us what???
Incidentally, we are going to move on to the Kibieh massacre later on. Maybe the editors can dig up an appropriate thread on that (or not). It doesn't matter because by the time I'm finished with Israeli massacres, everyone and his cat will know about them. You'll be reading about massacres in your sleep. Don't like it, find your own massacre.
After all this is a Board from whence I expected to learn something. I shall indeed and so shall you.
Today we'll start out with a few preliminary, but urgent, questions.
1. WAR CRIMES COMMITTED BY ISRAEL AGAINST THE REFUGEES AT JENIN CAMP IN APRIL 2002:
a) water and electricity were shut off to the camp? Why?
This is a violation of Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva
Convention, August 1949.
b) failure to provide medical assistance and refusal to allow the Red Cross and Red Crescent access to attend the wounded. Why?
This is a violation of Article 20 of the FGC.
c) the IDF were in control of the Jenin camp, and thus it was the duty and responsibility of Israel to ensure that the civilian population had adequate food and medical supplies. Why didn't they?
This is in violation of Articles 55 and 59 of the FGC.
For those of you who might not realize this, Israel DID RATIFY the terms and conditions of the Fourth Geneva Convention, and as such, has a responsibility to abide by same.
In Jenin Israel blatantly chose to ignore all of its obligations, and that begs the question how has it gotten away with it for a year plus?
Yesterday in a fine rage here I vowed that Jenin is not going "quietly into the night, now or ever". I'm more determined than I was twenty-four hours ago after reading the above.
Appropos of nothing at all, I hope llan Pappe comes to no harm as a result of his comments.
When DEAR URI criticized the infamous "Kibieh" massacre in 1954, he had both his hands broken for his efforts. I kid you not! And he, bless him, a Jew living in Israel! Now that tells us what???
Incidentally, we are going to move on to the Kibieh massacre later on. Maybe the editors can dig up an appropriate thread on that (or not). It doesn't matter because by the time I'm finished with Israeli massacres, everyone and his cat will know about them. You'll be reading about massacres in your sleep. Don't like it, find your own massacre.
After all this is a Board from whence I expected to learn something. I shall indeed and so shall you.
Today we'll start out with a few preliminary, but urgent, questions.
1. WAR CRIMES COMMITTED BY ISRAEL AGAINST THE REFUGEES AT JENIN CAMP IN APRIL 2002:
a) water and electricity were shut off to the camp? Why?
This is a violation of Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva
Convention, August 1949.
b) failure to provide medical assistance and refusal to allow the Red Cross and Red Crescent access to attend the wounded. Why?
This is a violation of Article 20 of the FGC.
c) the IDF were in control of the Jenin camp, and thus it was the duty and responsibility of Israel to ensure that the civilian population had adequate food and medical supplies. Why didn't they?
This is in violation of Articles 55 and 59 of the FGC.
For those of you who might not realize this, Israel DID RATIFY the terms and conditions of the Fourth Geneva Convention, and as such, has a responsibility to abide by same.
In Jenin Israel blatantly chose to ignore all of its obligations, and that begs the question how has it gotten away with it for a year plus?
"When DEAR URI criticized the infamous "Kibieh" massacre in 1954, he had both his hands broken for his efforts. I kid you not! And he, bless him, a Jew living in Israel! Now that tells us what???"
- It is easy enough to get killed saying pro israel things in any of a number of countries in the world. vastly more places than it is dangerous to be pro palistinian.
"After all this is a Board from whence I expected to learn something."
- what exact thing was that?
I am in a flipant mood today.........
a) water and electricity were shut off to the camp? Why?
- damn it I had my water shut off too I didn't know I could charge them with "war crimes" I thought it was jsut a rain issue. now I know better :)
b) failure to provide medical assistance and refusal to allow the Red Cross and Red Crescent access to attend the wounded. Why?
- damn private healthcare. Sux doesnt it. Still it is understandable if the people in jenin dont want to be operated on by them since they started bringing guns in their trucks to help expediate their "operations".
- It is easy enough to get killed saying pro israel things in any of a number of countries in the world. vastly more places than it is dangerous to be pro palistinian.
"After all this is a Board from whence I expected to learn something."
- what exact thing was that?
I am in a flipant mood today.........
a) water and electricity were shut off to the camp? Why?
- damn it I had my water shut off too I didn't know I could charge them with "war crimes" I thought it was jsut a rain issue. now I know better :)
b) failure to provide medical assistance and refusal to allow the Red Cross and Red Crescent access to attend the wounded. Why?
- damn private healthcare. Sux doesnt it. Still it is understandable if the people in jenin dont want to be operated on by them since they started bringing guns in their trucks to help expediate their "operations".
The other day I entered an article here which provided quotes from multiple sources about what happened in Jenin -- including interviews with Arab terrorists published by CNN and the Egyptian paper Al Ahram.
I figured it didn't make the commentary page since this was old hat. Then this article was entered and, since it was critical of Israel (rather than balanced), it was bumped to the commentary page, despite being about the exact same topic.
See:
http://www.indybay.org/print.php?id=1625506
I figured it didn't make the commentary page since this was old hat. Then this article was entered and, since it was critical of Israel (rather than balanced), it was bumped to the commentary page, despite being about the exact same topic.
See:
http://www.indybay.org/print.php?id=1625506
This article is prominent since it passed the standard of a truth vs. fiction
This is not a conflict between palestinian recollections and israeli ones but falseness vs. Reality!
This is not a conflict between palestinian recollections and israeli ones but falseness vs. Reality!
|| interviews with Arab terrorists published by CNN and the Egyptian paper Al Ahram.
Please feel free to point out the "falseness".
http://www.indybay.org/print.php?id=1625506
If you look through the items that get bumped to the comments page (many of which don't even garner a response and someone has to enter a "bump" response to get them there), the trend isn't of "truth vs. fiction" but of perspective.
If an article is neutral or defends Israel, it is effectively censored by not being displayed in the comments section where it will remain visible. Yet if the article takes a point-of-view condemning Israel, well, that's the fast track to the comments page.
In this very case, shouldn't this Article have been entered as a comment in the just-entered Article?
That's exactly the rub. By entering a new article (less than 2 hours after my article was posted) and making it prominent via the comments page, the first article was effectively buried. Precisely to prevent the sheeple from reading an opposing view, even if (or perhaps especially because) it's the very confessions of the terrorists themselves, published in an Arab newspaper!
Please feel free to point out the "falseness".
http://www.indybay.org/print.php?id=1625506
If you look through the items that get bumped to the comments page (many of which don't even garner a response and someone has to enter a "bump" response to get them there), the trend isn't of "truth vs. fiction" but of perspective.
If an article is neutral or defends Israel, it is effectively censored by not being displayed in the comments section where it will remain visible. Yet if the article takes a point-of-view condemning Israel, well, that's the fast track to the comments page.
In this very case, shouldn't this Article have been entered as a comment in the just-entered Article?
That's exactly the rub. By entering a new article (less than 2 hours after my article was posted) and making it prominent via the comments page, the first article was effectively buried. Precisely to prevent the sheeple from reading an opposing view, even if (or perhaps especially because) it's the very confessions of the terrorists themselves, published in an Arab newspaper!
And when I return later this a.m., we shall move on with more and more info about Jenin.
If someone doesn't like it, of course, he/she can start their own massacre page. Whether it's on this thread or not, Jenin is not going to be swept under the damn rug like all the others before it.
After all, who's had more massacres?
Perhaps people who know what truth is, for instance, dear Uri, can come on the board and let readers know the truth. He's been vilified enough, hasn't he, for being honest, and in his own country!!!
Which, of course, is something the detractors out there know nothing about - honesty!.
Ss someone once said "I've only just begun".
If someone doesn't like it, of course, he/she can start their own massacre page. Whether it's on this thread or not, Jenin is not going to be swept under the damn rug like all the others before it.
After all, who's had more massacres?
Perhaps people who know what truth is, for instance, dear Uri, can come on the board and let readers know the truth. He's been vilified enough, hasn't he, for being honest, and in his own country!!!
Which, of course, is something the detractors out there know nothing about - honesty!.
Ss someone once said "I've only just begun".
If you want to complain about our editorial policy, do it in the appropriate place:
http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/12/1548433.php
If you continue to do it in inappropriate places, we'll remove it. It's off topic in this thread, and therefore disruptive.
Last warning.
http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/12/1548433.php
If you continue to do it in inappropriate places, we'll remove it. It's off topic in this thread, and therefore disruptive.
Last warning.
From the way KL talks (about "terrorists" and all), you'd think that Jenin had to do with Palestinians killing Israelis in Israel. I cannot call someone a "terrorist" who decides to defend his home with light arms and booby traps against an invading army equipped with tanks, bulldozers, and Apache helicopters -- as the 20 or so Palestinian resistance fighters who were killed there decided to do. Only a racist can consider an indigenous people fighting on their own land against an invading army "terrorist."
First, Palestinians were forced into the ghettoes of Jenin as creeping (and illegal) Israeli settlements forced them off their own land. Then when they decide to defend what little they have left against an INVADING ARMY equipped by the most powerful country in the world, they are "terrorists" as far as Zionists are concerned.
People who remember what happened at the time, might recall a statement by an Israeli official: "We must bury the bodies before they bury us." Many bodies were taken by the IDF and buried within Israel during the days Israel prevented anyone from entering. Other bodies were completely crushed by bulldozers so that they could not be made out (except for digits and extremities). Israel even refused to allow in a UN investigative committee composed of military officers that they themselves had hand-picked.
First, Palestinians were forced into the ghettoes of Jenin as creeping (and illegal) Israeli settlements forced them off their own land. Then when they decide to defend what little they have left against an INVADING ARMY equipped by the most powerful country in the world, they are "terrorists" as far as Zionists are concerned.
People who remember what happened at the time, might recall a statement by an Israeli official: "We must bury the bodies before they bury us." Many bodies were taken by the IDF and buried within Israel during the days Israel prevented anyone from entering. Other bodies were completely crushed by bulldozers so that they could not be made out (except for digits and extremities). Israel even refused to allow in a UN investigative committee composed of military officers that they themselves had hand-picked.
And once again, Zionists attempt to paint the victims of Jenin as the victimizers, calling them "terrorists."
Even as the IDF was bulldozing homes with people in them and raining down missiles from Apache helicopters on civilians, this was not considered terrorism, but by any definition of the word, this was terrorism in the classic sense as a state used its military against civilians in order frighten, terrify, and MURDER them.
Even as the IDF was bulldozing homes with people in them and raining down missiles from Apache helicopters on civilians, this was not considered terrorism, but by any definition of the word, this was terrorism in the classic sense as a state used its military against civilians in order frighten, terrify, and MURDER them.
A massacre by any other name.
"Savage and indiscriminate killing" is the generally accepted definition of "massacre", and how many "dead" constitutes a "massacre" is a curious phenomenon in itself.
For instance:
a) the Boston Massacre (1770) British troops fired on a group of protesters killing FIVE and wounding six.
b) The Paoli Massacre (1777) saw 53 soldiers killed by British troops.
c) The Ludlow Massacre (1914) wherein 20 coal miners and their familes were killed by the National Guard during a strike.
In comparison, we could look at the Rwanda massacre wherein over 500,000 people were slaughtered. This tell us that anywhere from five to 500,000 plus dead can be a "massacre".
So where does this leave Jenin?
On the 23 May 2002 a delegation from A.N.S.W.E.R. entered the Jenin Refugee camp, and following interviews with eye witnesses and survivors alike, their assessment was blunt. This testimony confirmed the "indiscriminate and viciouis military attack against the Jenin Refugee Camp".
The delegation was informed by the Health Coordinator at the Camp that to date (23 May 2002) some 55 bodies had been located and identified; of those five were members of the Palestinian security forces; 12 were combatants from various factions fighting to defend the people of the camp; 38 were civilians, including the elderly, women, and children, and the disabled.
Following the destruction of homes by tanks and missiles, they were then flattened by the infamous "bulldozers", leaving 5000 people homeless.
A.N.S.W.E.R.'s Carl Messineo, a Human Rights attorney, stated:
"There can be no doubt, based on the number of civilians killed by Sharon's military, the obvious use of indiscriminate form of violence and weaponry, in addition to the testimony of eye witnesses to war crimes, and countless instances of human cruelty, unjustified by any conceivable necessity, that there has been a massacre in Jenin".
Mr. Messineo goes on to say:
"The decision to reject the apparent evidence of massacre is a political reason, a mischaracterization used to immunize Ariel Sharon, the Israeli Government, and the US backer for this inconscionable and indiscriminate military attack against Pleastinian civilians.
Even the killings of so-called Palestinian fighters cannot be justified under any standards of international humanitarian law which recognizes the inherent right of people to self defence. When an invading army invades your homeland fighting in self-defence is justified to protect yourself, your family, and your people".
See the following:
http://www.internationalanswer.org/news/update/052302jeninrept.html
I wonder if the homes were rebuilt, and if not, what has happened to the homeless?
"Savage and indiscriminate killing" is the generally accepted definition of "massacre", and how many "dead" constitutes a "massacre" is a curious phenomenon in itself.
For instance:
a) the Boston Massacre (1770) British troops fired on a group of protesters killing FIVE and wounding six.
b) The Paoli Massacre (1777) saw 53 soldiers killed by British troops.
c) The Ludlow Massacre (1914) wherein 20 coal miners and their familes were killed by the National Guard during a strike.
In comparison, we could look at the Rwanda massacre wherein over 500,000 people were slaughtered. This tell us that anywhere from five to 500,000 plus dead can be a "massacre".
So where does this leave Jenin?
On the 23 May 2002 a delegation from A.N.S.W.E.R. entered the Jenin Refugee camp, and following interviews with eye witnesses and survivors alike, their assessment was blunt. This testimony confirmed the "indiscriminate and viciouis military attack against the Jenin Refugee Camp".
The delegation was informed by the Health Coordinator at the Camp that to date (23 May 2002) some 55 bodies had been located and identified; of those five were members of the Palestinian security forces; 12 were combatants from various factions fighting to defend the people of the camp; 38 were civilians, including the elderly, women, and children, and the disabled.
Following the destruction of homes by tanks and missiles, they were then flattened by the infamous "bulldozers", leaving 5000 people homeless.
A.N.S.W.E.R.'s Carl Messineo, a Human Rights attorney, stated:
"There can be no doubt, based on the number of civilians killed by Sharon's military, the obvious use of indiscriminate form of violence and weaponry, in addition to the testimony of eye witnesses to war crimes, and countless instances of human cruelty, unjustified by any conceivable necessity, that there has been a massacre in Jenin".
Mr. Messineo goes on to say:
"The decision to reject the apparent evidence of massacre is a political reason, a mischaracterization used to immunize Ariel Sharon, the Israeli Government, and the US backer for this inconscionable and indiscriminate military attack against Pleastinian civilians.
Even the killings of so-called Palestinian fighters cannot be justified under any standards of international humanitarian law which recognizes the inherent right of people to self defence. When an invading army invades your homeland fighting in self-defence is justified to protect yourself, your family, and your people".
See the following:
http://www.internationalanswer.org/news/update/052302jeninrept.html
I wonder if the homes were rebuilt, and if not, what has happened to the homeless?
Again, I'm not sure I grasp what you're saying with respect to my comments re "dear Uri".
===========================
BY THE WAY DOES ANYONE HAVE AN UP TO THE MINUTE ADDRESS WHERE I CAN WRITE DEAR URI??? ANYONE???
===========================
Israel is where the good man lived at the time of the 1954 Kibieh massacre (and still does as far as I can figure out) so what's your point?
It's nice that you are in a "flippant mood today" Scottie, but there's nothing flippant about having your water and sewer shut off, being left to die in the street, having ambulances shot at, etc.
There is absolutely nothing to be flippant about, and your comments are most uncalled for. Is this how you dismiss the cruelities of Jenin?
===========================
BY THE WAY DOES ANYONE HAVE AN UP TO THE MINUTE ADDRESS WHERE I CAN WRITE DEAR URI??? ANYONE???
===========================
Israel is where the good man lived at the time of the 1954 Kibieh massacre (and still does as far as I can figure out) so what's your point?
It's nice that you are in a "flippant mood today" Scottie, but there's nothing flippant about having your water and sewer shut off, being left to die in the street, having ambulances shot at, etc.
There is absolutely nothing to be flippant about, and your comments are most uncalled for. Is this how you dismiss the cruelities of Jenin?
|| interviews with Arab terrorists published by CNN and the Egyptian paper Al Ahram.
Please feel free to point out the "falseness".
http://www.indybay.org/print.php?id=1625506
No one can point out any "falseness".
Instead, new diversions are entered:
?> it's racist to refer to people fighting on their own land as 'terrorist'
Terrorism describs a MEANS. It doesn't matter if you or the perpetrators think that the ENDS JUSTIFY THE MEANS. Illegal combatants who intentionally target and murder innocent civilians at random are terrorists.
If they are or are not also "freedom fighters" is of no relevance.
?> you'd think that Jenin had to do with Palestinians killing Israelis in Israel.
It most certainly did. A large percentage of suicide bombers came from Jenin, where they were recruited, trained and armed. That the terrorists were able to put up such resistance (including the setting of 1000-2000 booby-traps and bombs) proves that they had a strong base in Jenin.
?> I cannot call someone a "terrorist" who decides to defend his home with light arms and booby traps
You consider 250 pound bombs to be "light arms"?
And they weren't defending their own homes. They had rigged the houses of others. As one bomb-maker complained to Jonathan Cook in an interview published by Al Ahram, it was the residents who led Israeli troops to many of the bombs so they could disarm them!!!
|| "We were betrayed by the spies among us," he says. The wires to more than a third of the bombs were cut by soldiers accompanied by collaborators."
?> Palestinians were forced into the ghettoes of Jenin as creeping (and illegal) Israeli settlements forced them off their own land.
BS on all counts. The "refugees" in Jenin date to 1948, when the area was under Arab rule. It was Arab governments (not Israel) that established all these camps.
?> Even as the IDF was bulldozing homes with people
As noted by senior PA military officials (quoted in Time), it takes a bull-dozer 30 minutes to demolish a house, giving occupants who may have ignored Israeli warnings to evacuate plenty of time to exit. A 250 pound bomb, on the other hand, will flatten a building in seconds. Most of the civilians killed in the rubble were victims of terrorist bombs.
Angie> This tell us that anywhere from five to 500,000 plus dead can be a "massacre".
Fool. It's not the number but how they are killed. No one was "massacred" at Normandy despite an enormous number of combat deaths.
The origin of the Jenin "massacre" lie originated with the "eyewitness" claim that Israel was methodically executing 500-3000 people.
When Arab forces ethnically cleansed all Jews from what became Trans-Jordan's "West Bank" and Egptian Gaza, taking no prisoners, it is correct to say that these populations were massacred.
When Arab terrorists set off a bomb in a beach disco in Tel Aviv, murdering 24 teenagers and young adults, it is a massacre.
When in heated fighting over numerous days 50 people are killed (a majority of them illegal combatants), it is NOT a "massacre" -- for otherwise you could just as well claim that 23 Israeli soldiers were also "massacred".
Please feel free to point out the "falseness".
http://www.indybay.org/print.php?id=1625506
No one can point out any "falseness".
Instead, new diversions are entered:
?> it's racist to refer to people fighting on their own land as 'terrorist'
Terrorism describs a MEANS. It doesn't matter if you or the perpetrators think that the ENDS JUSTIFY THE MEANS. Illegal combatants who intentionally target and murder innocent civilians at random are terrorists.
If they are or are not also "freedom fighters" is of no relevance.
?> you'd think that Jenin had to do with Palestinians killing Israelis in Israel.
It most certainly did. A large percentage of suicide bombers came from Jenin, where they were recruited, trained and armed. That the terrorists were able to put up such resistance (including the setting of 1000-2000 booby-traps and bombs) proves that they had a strong base in Jenin.
?> I cannot call someone a "terrorist" who decides to defend his home with light arms and booby traps
You consider 250 pound bombs to be "light arms"?
And they weren't defending their own homes. They had rigged the houses of others. As one bomb-maker complained to Jonathan Cook in an interview published by Al Ahram, it was the residents who led Israeli troops to many of the bombs so they could disarm them!!!
|| "We were betrayed by the spies among us," he says. The wires to more than a third of the bombs were cut by soldiers accompanied by collaborators."
?> Palestinians were forced into the ghettoes of Jenin as creeping (and illegal) Israeli settlements forced them off their own land.
BS on all counts. The "refugees" in Jenin date to 1948, when the area was under Arab rule. It was Arab governments (not Israel) that established all these camps.
?> Even as the IDF was bulldozing homes with people
As noted by senior PA military officials (quoted in Time), it takes a bull-dozer 30 minutes to demolish a house, giving occupants who may have ignored Israeli warnings to evacuate plenty of time to exit. A 250 pound bomb, on the other hand, will flatten a building in seconds. Most of the civilians killed in the rubble were victims of terrorist bombs.
Angie> This tell us that anywhere from five to 500,000 plus dead can be a "massacre".
Fool. It's not the number but how they are killed. No one was "massacred" at Normandy despite an enormous number of combat deaths.
The origin of the Jenin "massacre" lie originated with the "eyewitness" claim that Israel was methodically executing 500-3000 people.
When Arab forces ethnically cleansed all Jews from what became Trans-Jordan's "West Bank" and Egptian Gaza, taking no prisoners, it is correct to say that these populations were massacred.
When Arab terrorists set off a bomb in a beach disco in Tel Aviv, murdering 24 teenagers and young adults, it is a massacre.
When in heated fighting over numerous days 50 people are killed (a majority of them illegal combatants), it is NOT a "massacre" -- for otherwise you could just as well claim that 23 Israeli soldiers were also "massacred".
For more information:
http://www.indybay.org/print.php?id=1625506
Our dispute (if you can call it that) is not what to do about attrocities etc it is whether they occured as you say.
Dont pretend it is what to do. that is jsut dishonest.
Dont pretend it is what to do. that is jsut dishonest.
Is the movie "Jenin,Jenin" still illegal to witness within the borders of Israel and is the director of the picture being sued for making it?
The U.S., the U.N., the E.U. and Russia are all calling for a two state solution to end this conflict that has been going on since Israel decided to become a Jewish state, even though the many Arabs living there did not agree..
The least that can be done after all these years of conflict is to allow the Palestinian People their own State on 22% of the land in what is TODAY Israel, West Bank and Gaza. If this was done now many of the above mentioned atrocities on both side would not occur. The Israel Military could guard the Israel side of the Border instead of going into Palestinian Areas and destroying Palestinian Property and the Palestinian Forces could guard the Palestinian Borders instead of going into Israel to seek revenge for the atrocities committed by Israel towards the Palestinian People.
The only way that a two state solution can work is if the Palestinian State has reasonable borders.
For Details on how this might work:
CLICK HERE > http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1618616.php
The least that can be done after all these years of conflict is to allow the Palestinian People their own State on 22% of the land in what is TODAY Israel, West Bank and Gaza. If this was done now many of the above mentioned atrocities on both side would not occur. The Israel Military could guard the Israel side of the Border instead of going into Palestinian Areas and destroying Palestinian Property and the Palestinian Forces could guard the Palestinian Borders instead of going into Israel to seek revenge for the atrocities committed by Israel towards the Palestinian People.
The only way that a two state solution can work is if the Palestinian State has reasonable borders.
For Details on how this might work:
CLICK HERE > http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1618616.php
So now Jenin never happened? We are going to have so much fun here uncoverinig Jenin together with all the OTHER massacres carried out by Israel. I didn't realize there were SO MANY!
If the atrocities didn't occur in Jenin, then what did ?? A block party?
Shooting at anything that moved, destroying homes with people in them, shooting a person in a wheelchair and running over him then with a tank even though he was holding a white flag? Nice people!
Why don't you look at the pictures from the Jenin massacre? (Oh, right! They could be pictures from anywhere or not pictures at all!)
The delegation from A.N.S.W.E.R. have given us their opinion of this matter, and it is an appropriate indictment of both Israel and the US for allowing same. There are numerous other accounts as well, so you get busy with your pals and attempt to refute same.
It's curious to know as well that there were only a handful of civilians, the rest "combatants". Astonishing how the stats change here.
Quite frankly I don't much care if everyone was a combatatant. It's still a bleeding massacre because these "combatants" (another word coined by the US and Israeli press) have every right to defend their hovels against a tyrannical army.
As long as the editors here have no problem with my pursuing this issue on Jenin, then I shall continue to do so, and you and your detractors can do your best, but it won't be good enough.
You can tune in here tomorrow if you wish because I'll be here for as long as it takes. If you don't like my bringing the Jenin massacre to the forefront, then, hey, go find your own damn massacre.
If the atrocities didn't occur in Jenin, then what did ?? A block party?
Shooting at anything that moved, destroying homes with people in them, shooting a person in a wheelchair and running over him then with a tank even though he was holding a white flag? Nice people!
Why don't you look at the pictures from the Jenin massacre? (Oh, right! They could be pictures from anywhere or not pictures at all!)
The delegation from A.N.S.W.E.R. have given us their opinion of this matter, and it is an appropriate indictment of both Israel and the US for allowing same. There are numerous other accounts as well, so you get busy with your pals and attempt to refute same.
It's curious to know as well that there were only a handful of civilians, the rest "combatants". Astonishing how the stats change here.
Quite frankly I don't much care if everyone was a combatatant. It's still a bleeding massacre because these "combatants" (another word coined by the US and Israeli press) have every right to defend their hovels against a tyrannical army.
As long as the editors here have no problem with my pursuing this issue on Jenin, then I shall continue to do so, and you and your detractors can do your best, but it won't be good enough.
You can tune in here tomorrow if you wish because I'll be here for as long as it takes. If you don't like my bringing the Jenin massacre to the forefront, then, hey, go find your own damn massacre.
Do You Remember Iain Hook???
He was a U.N. worker killed by the Israeli Military in Jenin.
For Picture of Slain Iain Hook and Other Victims of the Israeli Government during the time of the Jenin massacres: You will be amazed at what Israel is capable of (talk about a Government with no conscience)
CLICK HERE > http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=221517&group=webcast
He was a U.N. worker killed by the Israeli Military in Jenin.
For Picture of Slain Iain Hook and Other Victims of the Israeli Government during the time of the Jenin massacres: You will be amazed at what Israel is capable of (talk about a Government with no conscience)
CLICK HERE > http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=221517&group=webcast
Poor Iain Hook! Calling for help on his cell phone and shot for his efforts.
Is this the one you're referring to? I lose track sometimes.
Seriously, imagine expecting us to believe the soldier(s) thought a cell phone was a gun!!! In view of the amount of weaponry the IDF has at its disposal, and how famliar they are with its use, this is asking us to take one hell of a quantum leap into misinformation, isn't it?
Is this the one you're referring to? I lose track sometimes.
Seriously, imagine expecting us to believe the soldier(s) thought a cell phone was a gun!!! In view of the amount of weaponry the IDF has at its disposal, and how famliar they are with its use, this is asking us to take one hell of a quantum leap into misinformation, isn't it?
How many times do we hear some "spokes-person" or another state: "...the incident is under investigation"?
How often do we hear of the results of any of these "investigations"?
How many individuals are ever found "guilty" of any form of "misbehaviour"?
Of those actually found "guilty" - what, if any, is their actual punishment?
It is more than obvious the utter disregard that Israel holds for non-jews, and it's "enemies".
Is this racism?
How often do we hear of the results of any of these "investigations"?
How many individuals are ever found "guilty" of any form of "misbehaviour"?
Of those actually found "guilty" - what, if any, is their actual punishment?
It is more than obvious the utter disregard that Israel holds for non-jews, and it's "enemies".
Is this racism?
a) every time an "incident" happens
b) never unless it's favourable to Israel (i.e., Rachel Corrie
c) none that I'm aware of
d) the proverbial wrist. Like, the Lieutenant (whose bleeding name I forget right now) who spent two years in prison for strangling four Syrian peasants
e) it's certainly not justice
b) never unless it's favourable to Israel (i.e., Rachel Corrie
c) none that I'm aware of
d) the proverbial wrist. Like, the Lieutenant (whose bleeding name I forget right now) who spent two years in prison for strangling four Syrian peasants
e) it's certainly not justice
Sorry, that should have read "proverbial slap on the wrist".
tHAT DEPENDS ON IF THEIR DIRECTOR HAS TRIED TO BLOW ANYONE UP LATEly
HE HAS?
hMM GUESS IT IS STILL ILLEGAL.
HE HAS?
hMM GUESS IT IS STILL ILLEGAL.
If the atrocities didn't occur in Jenin, then what did ?? A block party?
-- DID THIS BECOME A JOKE WHILE i WASNT LOOKING?
Shooting at anything that moved,
hOW MANY PEOPLE DIE IF THE ISRAELI ARMY GOES IN AND "SHOOTS ANYTHING THAT MOVES. i WOULD SAY ..ALOT.. FORTUNATLY THAT IS RUBBISH AND EVEN YOU SHOULD KNOW THAT.
- The delegation from A.N.S.W.E.R. have given us their opinion of this matter
OH answer? or else you could just ask the zionist association of america or somthing and see what they think. I can telll you both without even reading their report or even knowing the exact event you are talking about.
"and it is an appropriate indictment"
-ermm hahaha hahaha ermmmm...
"Quite frankly I don't much care if everyone was a combatatant. It's still a bleeding massacre because these "combatants" (another word coined by the US and Israeli press) have every right to defend their hovels against a tyrannical army."
- ever seen someone "defending their home" against a tyranical police raid to get a murderer inside?
Oh yeah murderers are allowed to kill whatever their reason was because they are "fighting the man"
as HRW said if you justify evil actions because they are in response to other evil actions you create a huge hole in international law that anyone could (AND WILL) walk through. But for some reason Angie is intent on doing just that.
"As long as the editors here have no problem with my pursuing this issue on Jenin, then I shall continue to do so, and you and your detractors can do your best, but it won't be good enough."
Please continue to pursue it. we find you ammusing in a absence of logic sort of a way.
"Seriously, imagine expecting us to believe the soldier(s) thought a cell phone was a gun!!! "
Here is a test for you...quickly reach for your cellphone when being stoped by police in a gang house raid and see what happens.
"It is more than obvious the utter disregard that Israel holds for non-jews, and it's "enemies".
Is this racism?"
How many people are killed in israel over the whole interfada? about 3000? There are SIX billion people in the world. And MANY of more dangerous places go look to extradite all of them.
-- DID THIS BECOME A JOKE WHILE i WASNT LOOKING?
Shooting at anything that moved,
hOW MANY PEOPLE DIE IF THE ISRAELI ARMY GOES IN AND "SHOOTS ANYTHING THAT MOVES. i WOULD SAY ..ALOT.. FORTUNATLY THAT IS RUBBISH AND EVEN YOU SHOULD KNOW THAT.
- The delegation from A.N.S.W.E.R. have given us their opinion of this matter
OH answer? or else you could just ask the zionist association of america or somthing and see what they think. I can telll you both without even reading their report or even knowing the exact event you are talking about.
"and it is an appropriate indictment"
-ermm hahaha hahaha ermmmm...
"Quite frankly I don't much care if everyone was a combatatant. It's still a bleeding massacre because these "combatants" (another word coined by the US and Israeli press) have every right to defend their hovels against a tyrannical army."
- ever seen someone "defending their home" against a tyranical police raid to get a murderer inside?
Oh yeah murderers are allowed to kill whatever their reason was because they are "fighting the man"
as HRW said if you justify evil actions because they are in response to other evil actions you create a huge hole in international law that anyone could (AND WILL) walk through. But for some reason Angie is intent on doing just that.
"As long as the editors here have no problem with my pursuing this issue on Jenin, then I shall continue to do so, and you and your detractors can do your best, but it won't be good enough."
Please continue to pursue it. we find you ammusing in a absence of logic sort of a way.
"Seriously, imagine expecting us to believe the soldier(s) thought a cell phone was a gun!!! "
Here is a test for you...quickly reach for your cellphone when being stoped by police in a gang house raid and see what happens.
"It is more than obvious the utter disregard that Israel holds for non-jews, and it's "enemies".
Is this racism?"
How many people are killed in israel over the whole interfada? about 3000? There are SIX billion people in the world. And MANY of more dangerous places go look to extradite all of them.
Yada,yada,yada,yada! When there is something good to be said about the terrorist state of Israel, someone will actually put it down in words you can comprehend.
Yada,yada,yada,yada! When there is something good to be said about the terrorist state of Israel, someone will actually put it down in words you can comprehend.
Today I'm going to spend some time following Jennifer Loewenstein, a writer for the Palestine Chronicle, around the Jenin Refugee Camp and see what she was confronted with on her arrival there on 23 April 2002.
As I read her report the horror she was witnessing was a palpable one that was passed on to the reader. Describing it as the "most horrible thing I have ever seen in my life "Ms. Loewenstein goes on to describe for us in her own words:
"I now know the smell of death and what it is like to realize that you are standing on top of rubble, underneath which people lie buried, unrecognizable, and in many cases, unreachable. I know what tank shells, ammunition rounds, and missiles look like after they've exploded into people's bedrooms, family rooms, and kitchens".
She takes us to the remmants of the refugee hospital inside the Camp where teams of workers, their noses and mouths covered, as bodies are dug up from makeshift graves because the mourning families were not allowed to give them a proper outside burial during the siege.
"More bodies were brought in and laid out on the ground in white sheets and then loaded into trucks - bodies of people (men, women, and children) who died when their homes collapsed on them, or who were executed while tied up, or run over by tanks in the street as a 'message" to other Camp inhabitants".
We learn that thousands of people (as we already know) were left homeless, and when some of these people attempted to return to the site of their previous lives in the faint hope of finding any little momento that may have survived, they were shot at by the IDF.
We follow her as she watches bulldozers "plow through the flattened ruins of the camp, unearthing blankets, shoes, school bags", all the household items we see in our own homes daily. She pauses to chat with a woman wandering the ruins not knowing where her home was, another begging for hread and water "so we can live".
Meanwhile at Shifa Surgical Hospital located just outside the Camp there was plenty of oxygen, blood, and other medical supplies. They were still there because for twelve days ambulances were not allowed in, were shot at, and injured people were allowed to lle in the streets despite medical help a very short distance away.
See:
http://palestinechronicle.com/article.php?story=2002042305292238
The Human Rights Watch, etc. made the decision not to call this a "massacre", (a political decision, of course) but those of us with independent minds not only know why (bowing to this rogue state) but have no doubt it was a masacre most horrid.
If a British soldier firing into a crowd killing five people constitutes a "massacre", then if the indiscriminate killing of civilians, of crushing them inside their homes, of running over them with tanks in the streets is not a massacre, then I'd like to know what is.
Tomorrow I'm going to check with Justin Huggler and Phil Reeves, reporters from the Independent, and get their views on this "massacre most horrid" (my words).
As I read her report the horror she was witnessing was a palpable one that was passed on to the reader. Describing it as the "most horrible thing I have ever seen in my life "Ms. Loewenstein goes on to describe for us in her own words:
"I now know the smell of death and what it is like to realize that you are standing on top of rubble, underneath which people lie buried, unrecognizable, and in many cases, unreachable. I know what tank shells, ammunition rounds, and missiles look like after they've exploded into people's bedrooms, family rooms, and kitchens".
She takes us to the remmants of the refugee hospital inside the Camp where teams of workers, their noses and mouths covered, as bodies are dug up from makeshift graves because the mourning families were not allowed to give them a proper outside burial during the siege.
"More bodies were brought in and laid out on the ground in white sheets and then loaded into trucks - bodies of people (men, women, and children) who died when their homes collapsed on them, or who were executed while tied up, or run over by tanks in the street as a 'message" to other Camp inhabitants".
We learn that thousands of people (as we already know) were left homeless, and when some of these people attempted to return to the site of their previous lives in the faint hope of finding any little momento that may have survived, they were shot at by the IDF.
We follow her as she watches bulldozers "plow through the flattened ruins of the camp, unearthing blankets, shoes, school bags", all the household items we see in our own homes daily. She pauses to chat with a woman wandering the ruins not knowing where her home was, another begging for hread and water "so we can live".
Meanwhile at Shifa Surgical Hospital located just outside the Camp there was plenty of oxygen, blood, and other medical supplies. They were still there because for twelve days ambulances were not allowed in, were shot at, and injured people were allowed to lle in the streets despite medical help a very short distance away.
See:
http://palestinechronicle.com/article.php?story=2002042305292238
The Human Rights Watch, etc. made the decision not to call this a "massacre", (a political decision, of course) but those of us with independent minds not only know why (bowing to this rogue state) but have no doubt it was a masacre most horrid.
If a British soldier firing into a crowd killing five people constitutes a "massacre", then if the indiscriminate killing of civilians, of crushing them inside their homes, of running over them with tanks in the streets is not a massacre, then I'd like to know what is.
Tomorrow I'm going to check with Justin Huggler and Phil Reeves, reporters from the Independent, and get their views on this "massacre most horrid" (my words).
angie, no one said "jenin didn't happen" to mean that there was no fighting in jenin.
The fact is, the world yelled "horrible massacre in jenin, hundreds slaughtered!" when the FACT was, it was armed hamas and islamic jihad militants fighting with armed israli soldiers, and the FACT is, aroudn 50 or 60 palestinians died and 20 or 30 israeli soldiers died, in ACTUAL ARMED FIGHTING.
You, and all those out there who DON"T WANT THE TRUTH but instead just want to demonize israel as much as possible, tried to make it sound like israel went in and just murdered everyone that moved, and that's NOT EVEN REMOTELY CLOSE TO ACCURATE, and the palestinians know it and the israelis know it and you know it, only for some reason you and others ON A MISSION to attack israel feel the need to twist the truth any way you can. It's rather pathetic.
Not everything has to be all or nothing. THere's giant gray area. Well, to you, and people like you, it's all or nothing, you are all in favor of every palestinian in every situation, and you are against every aspect of israel in every situation, and you are more than willing to LIE to make your point. PATHETIC.
The fact is, the world yelled "horrible massacre in jenin, hundreds slaughtered!" when the FACT was, it was armed hamas and islamic jihad militants fighting with armed israli soldiers, and the FACT is, aroudn 50 or 60 palestinians died and 20 or 30 israeli soldiers died, in ACTUAL ARMED FIGHTING.
You, and all those out there who DON"T WANT THE TRUTH but instead just want to demonize israel as much as possible, tried to make it sound like israel went in and just murdered everyone that moved, and that's NOT EVEN REMOTELY CLOSE TO ACCURATE, and the palestinians know it and the israelis know it and you know it, only for some reason you and others ON A MISSION to attack israel feel the need to twist the truth any way you can. It's rather pathetic.
Not everything has to be all or nothing. THere's giant gray area. Well, to you, and people like you, it's all or nothing, you are all in favor of every palestinian in every situation, and you are against every aspect of israel in every situation, and you are more than willing to LIE to make your point. PATHETIC.
Please note:
The term "hundreds" was NOT just some anti-zionist "propaganda" as it was the IOF themselves, who initially stated that "hundreds were killed".
Hundreds of Palestinians Killed in Jenin: Israel Army
<http://fpeng.peopledaily.com.cn/200204/12/eng20020412_93947.shtml>
The term "hundreds" was NOT just some anti-zionist "propaganda" as it was the IOF themselves, who initially stated that "hundreds were killed".
Hundreds of Palestinians Killed in Jenin: Israel Army
<http://fpeng.peopledaily.com.cn/200204/12/eng20020412_93947.shtml>
I'm not twisting the truth at all. (Excuse me while I smile here. You detractors of myself and others (world wide) love to throw out the old "twisting the truth" or "outright lying" or "demonizing israel" ad nauseum.
Don't be absurd. I'm simply putting forth another view, and believe me, there's plenty of contrary research out there.
Oh, and please don't talk to me about 'demonizing" Israel. It does the best job of demonizing anyone when it comes to the Palestinian peoples. Thanks to the great Israeli propagana machine and its supporters around the world, there are people out there who actually believe the garbage that Palestinians are "sub-human" amongst other disgusting accusations.
If there was nothing to hide in Jenin, why was it closed off for several days? No one could get in to confirm anything, and we are expected to believe the typical responses from the Israeli spokesperson? No, no, I dn't think so, sir or madam. I don't really think so.
If the editors have no problem with this, then I'll continue regardless of who likes it or not. As I said before, if you don't like it, go find your own massacre.
Don't be absurd. I'm simply putting forth another view, and believe me, there's plenty of contrary research out there.
Oh, and please don't talk to me about 'demonizing" Israel. It does the best job of demonizing anyone when it comes to the Palestinian peoples. Thanks to the great Israeli propagana machine and its supporters around the world, there are people out there who actually believe the garbage that Palestinians are "sub-human" amongst other disgusting accusations.
If there was nothing to hide in Jenin, why was it closed off for several days? No one could get in to confirm anything, and we are expected to believe the typical responses from the Israeli spokesperson? No, no, I dn't think so, sir or madam. I don't really think so.
If the editors have no problem with this, then I'll continue regardless of who likes it or not. As I said before, if you don't like it, go find your own massacre.
A nameless anti-Zionists repeats a previous reference to a Chinese government paper (what an unusual source, but then, s/he probably couldn't find the story in a real paper) to make it seem as if the Israeli army admitted that there were hundreds killed.
Even IF one IDF spokesman at some point said that their may be hundreds of dead (in battle, not by a massacre), the official IDF estimate was 50-100, and that proved to be correct.
However, the same report denies that there was a massacre. So much for that.
Angie> I'm simply putting forth another view, and believe me, there's plenty of contrary research out there.
Contrary to what?!
There was no massacre.
Amnesty International said so.
Human Rights Watch said so.
The United Nations said so.
Angie> This tell us that anywhere from five to 500,000 plus dead can be a "massacre".
It's not the number but how they are killed. No one was "massacred" at Normandy despite an enormous number of combat deaths.
The origin of the Jenin "massacre" lie originated with the "eyewitness" claim that Israel was methodically executing 500-3000 people.
When Arab forces ethnically cleansed all Jews from what became Trans-Jordan's "West Bank" and Egptian Gaza, taking no prisoners, it is correct to say that these populations were massacred.
When Arab terrorists set off a bomb in a beach disco in Tel Aviv, murdering 24 teenagers and young adults, it is a massacre.
When in heated fighting over numerous days 50 people are killed (a majority of them illegal combatants), it is NOT a "massacre" -- for otherwise you could just as well claim that 23 Israeli soldiers were also "massacred".
Angie> If there was nothing to hide in Jenin, why was it closed off for several days?
Because the area was laced with 1000-2000 bombs and booby-traps:
http://www.efreedomnews.com/News%20Archive/Israel%20Palestine/The%20'engineer'.htm
[From the Egptian Al Ahram, an interview of a terrorist bomb-maker by Jonathan Cook]
|| "We had more than 50 houses booby-trapped around the camp. We chose old and empty buildings and the houses of men who were wanted by Israel because we knew the soldiers would search for them," he said.
http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/04/22/jenin.fighter/index.html
|| Mardawi drew a map of the camp and talked about the course of the battle. Their weapons were guns and crudely made bombs and booby traps -- "big ones" for tanks and "others the size of a water bottle." He estimated 1,000 to 2,000 bombs and booby traps were spread through the camp.
Even IF one IDF spokesman at some point said that their may be hundreds of dead (in battle, not by a massacre), the official IDF estimate was 50-100, and that proved to be correct.
However, the same report denies that there was a massacre. So much for that.
Angie> I'm simply putting forth another view, and believe me, there's plenty of contrary research out there.
Contrary to what?!
There was no massacre.
Amnesty International said so.
Human Rights Watch said so.
The United Nations said so.
Angie> This tell us that anywhere from five to 500,000 plus dead can be a "massacre".
It's not the number but how they are killed. No one was "massacred" at Normandy despite an enormous number of combat deaths.
The origin of the Jenin "massacre" lie originated with the "eyewitness" claim that Israel was methodically executing 500-3000 people.
When Arab forces ethnically cleansed all Jews from what became Trans-Jordan's "West Bank" and Egptian Gaza, taking no prisoners, it is correct to say that these populations were massacred.
When Arab terrorists set off a bomb in a beach disco in Tel Aviv, murdering 24 teenagers and young adults, it is a massacre.
When in heated fighting over numerous days 50 people are killed (a majority of them illegal combatants), it is NOT a "massacre" -- for otherwise you could just as well claim that 23 Israeli soldiers were also "massacred".
Angie> If there was nothing to hide in Jenin, why was it closed off for several days?
Because the area was laced with 1000-2000 bombs and booby-traps:
http://www.efreedomnews.com/News%20Archive/Israel%20Palestine/The%20'engineer'.htm
[From the Egptian Al Ahram, an interview of a terrorist bomb-maker by Jonathan Cook]
|| "We had more than 50 houses booby-trapped around the camp. We chose old and empty buildings and the houses of men who were wanted by Israel because we knew the soldiers would search for them," he said.
http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/04/22/jenin.fighter/index.html
|| Mardawi drew a map of the camp and talked about the course of the battle. Their weapons were guns and crudely made bombs and booby traps -- "big ones" for tanks and "others the size of a water bottle." He estimated 1,000 to 2,000 bombs and booby traps were spread through the camp.
Funny - in a morbid sort of way, of how, those who, in searching for any possibility to excuse Israel's actions have so siezed on the word "massacre", however, themselves, will use it at any opportunity that presents itself.
Is this similiar to the new use of the word "holocaust" - it's use, for all intents and purposes, now "reserved" exclusively to jews and it's use denied to any other historic action (i.e. Armenia).
From: Merriam-Webster Online
http://www.m-w.com/home.htm
Main Entry: 1mas·sa·cre
Pronunciation: 'ma-si-k&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French
Date: circa 1578
1 : the act or an instance of killing a number of usually helpless or unresisting human beings under circumstances of atrocity or cruelty
2 : a cruel or wanton murder
3 : a wholesale slaughter of animals
4 : an act of complete destruction <the author's massacre of traditional federalist presuppositions -- R. G. McCloskey>
Bottom of Form 0
After reviewing the definitions above and aerial-photographs of the aftermath certainly #4 applies.
before
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/palestine/images/jenin-idf-aerial-before.jpg
after
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/palestine/images/jenin-idf-aerial-after.jpg
Jenin Imagery Page
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/palestine/jenin-imagery.htm
Jenin Report by Global Security
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/palestine/jenin.htm
After reading the various reports of the NGOs specified #1 and #2 apply.
3 out of 4 ain't bad!
...or, must a wholesale slaughter of animals also occur before it can be considered a massacre?
Human Rights Watch Report
Jenin: IDF Military Operations
From the first paragraph of the report summary:
"Israeli forces committed serious violations of international humanitarian law, some amounting prima facie to war crimes."
Extract
Human Rights Watch found no evidence to sustain claims of massacres or large-scale extrajudicial executions by the IDF in Jenin refugee camp. However, many of the civilian deaths documented by Human Rights Watch amounted to unlawful or willful killings by the IDF.
End of extract***
The HRW report in full here:
Jenin from Human Rights Watch (HRW)
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/israel3/
UN issues 'seriously flawed' report on Jenin killings
http://vredessite.nl/andernieuws/2002/week3233/08-02_report.html
Media Distortions and the UN Report on Jenin
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article499.shtml
Other:
The horrors of the Israeli assault on Jenin revealed - April 2002 - Statements
http://www.caabu.org/campaigns/statements-on-jenin.html
Jenin
http://this.is/jenin/index2.html
It is also very worthy of note, to point out the fact that Israel has repeatedly denied access to organizations (the UN included) tasked with an impartial evaluation of the actual facts on the ground. The reports that have been presented by the various NGOs have been compiled without any Israeli Government cooperation.
Is this similiar to the new use of the word "holocaust" - it's use, for all intents and purposes, now "reserved" exclusively to jews and it's use denied to any other historic action (i.e. Armenia).
From: Merriam-Webster Online
http://www.m-w.com/home.htm
Main Entry: 1mas·sa·cre
Pronunciation: 'ma-si-k&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French
Date: circa 1578
1 : the act or an instance of killing a number of usually helpless or unresisting human beings under circumstances of atrocity or cruelty
2 : a cruel or wanton murder
3 : a wholesale slaughter of animals
4 : an act of complete destruction <the author's massacre of traditional federalist presuppositions -- R. G. McCloskey>
Bottom of Form 0
After reviewing the definitions above and aerial-photographs of the aftermath certainly #4 applies.
before
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/palestine/images/jenin-idf-aerial-before.jpg
after
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/palestine/images/jenin-idf-aerial-after.jpg
Jenin Imagery Page
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/palestine/jenin-imagery.htm
Jenin Report by Global Security
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/palestine/jenin.htm
After reading the various reports of the NGOs specified #1 and #2 apply.
3 out of 4 ain't bad!
...or, must a wholesale slaughter of animals also occur before it can be considered a massacre?
Human Rights Watch Report
Jenin: IDF Military Operations
From the first paragraph of the report summary:
"Israeli forces committed serious violations of international humanitarian law, some amounting prima facie to war crimes."
Extract
Human Rights Watch found no evidence to sustain claims of massacres or large-scale extrajudicial executions by the IDF in Jenin refugee camp. However, many of the civilian deaths documented by Human Rights Watch amounted to unlawful or willful killings by the IDF.
End of extract***
The HRW report in full here:
Jenin from Human Rights Watch (HRW)
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/israel3/
UN issues 'seriously flawed' report on Jenin killings
http://vredessite.nl/andernieuws/2002/week3233/08-02_report.html
Media Distortions and the UN Report on Jenin
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article499.shtml
Other:
The horrors of the Israeli assault on Jenin revealed - April 2002 - Statements
http://www.caabu.org/campaigns/statements-on-jenin.html
Jenin
http://this.is/jenin/index2.html
It is also very worthy of note, to point out the fact that Israel has repeatedly denied access to organizations (the UN included) tasked with an impartial evaluation of the actual facts on the ground. The reports that have been presented by the various NGOs have been compiled without any Israeli Government cooperation.
Thus far in the past few weeks we've been advised by the propaganda machine, working on their chosen goal in lilfe, that being maximizing the seige mentality of Israel whilst defaming the Palestinian peoples and those of us who dare seek the truth, that as "massacres" go, there were none.
a) there was no Deir Yassen
b) there was no Sabra and Shatilla
c) there was no Jenin
I can well imagine the flutter of activity my comments with respect to the other "massacres" will elicit as those in denial rush forth to claim, for instance, that Kibieh ever happened!
It's curious to know why, then, people were left without to die agnozing deaths in the streets and elsewhere when medical assistance that could save llivesz was available a short distance away, and why the IDF used Palestinians as human shields.
But we shall deal with all of that in "Jenin Will Not Go Quietly Into the Night Now or Ever (cont'd)".
a) there was no Deir Yassen
b) there was no Sabra and Shatilla
c) there was no Jenin
I can well imagine the flutter of activity my comments with respect to the other "massacres" will elicit as those in denial rush forth to claim, for instance, that Kibieh ever happened!
It's curious to know why, then, people were left without to die agnozing deaths in the streets and elsewhere when medical assistance that could save llivesz was available a short distance away, and why the IDF used Palestinians as human shields.
But we shall deal with all of that in "Jenin Will Not Go Quietly Into the Night Now or Ever (cont'd)".
!> After reviewing the definitions above and aerial-photographs of the aftermath certainly #4 applies.
So you think that the 4th definition applies? That's a bad start already, given that this is not what one usually generally thinks of when the word is said. Note also that the context in which most of the "anti-Zionists" here have used the word was as per definition #1, which again stinks of dishonest misrepresentation.
But does definition #4, an act of COMPLETE destruction, apply?
A cursory look at the aerial photos shows that only a very small section of one part of Jenin was destroyed. So no, not even definition #4 applies.
Perhaps the anti-Zionists should amend their statement and simply state that a few buildings in Jenin were "massacred"?
In contrast, note that the Passover Massacre (of some 30 elderly Jews celebrating a holiday meal at a hotel), complies with definitions 1, 2 and 4 (there was complete destruction where they were). So do most of the Arab terrorist attacks over the past 2.5 years.
But then "!" returns to the usual sophistry:
!> After reading the various reports of the NGOs specified #1 and #2 apply.
Except was do those reports say? As "!" quotes:
|| Human Rights Watch found no evidence to sustain claims of massacres or large-scale extrajudicial executions by the IDF in Jenin
So the very source "!" quotes is disagreeing with him/her!!
So you think that the 4th definition applies? That's a bad start already, given that this is not what one usually generally thinks of when the word is said. Note also that the context in which most of the "anti-Zionists" here have used the word was as per definition #1, which again stinks of dishonest misrepresentation.
But does definition #4, an act of COMPLETE destruction, apply?
A cursory look at the aerial photos shows that only a very small section of one part of Jenin was destroyed. So no, not even definition #4 applies.
Perhaps the anti-Zionists should amend their statement and simply state that a few buildings in Jenin were "massacred"?
In contrast, note that the Passover Massacre (of some 30 elderly Jews celebrating a holiday meal at a hotel), complies with definitions 1, 2 and 4 (there was complete destruction where they were). So do most of the Arab terrorist attacks over the past 2.5 years.
But then "!" returns to the usual sophistry:
!> After reading the various reports of the NGOs specified #1 and #2 apply.
Except was do those reports say? As "!" quotes:
|| Human Rights Watch found no evidence to sustain claims of massacres or large-scale extrajudicial executions by the IDF in Jenin
So the very source "!" quotes is disagreeing with him/her!!
Zionists count on us suspending all judgment when it comes to their deeds.
Talk shows, mainly on CNN ( which in and around that time was threatened by the Zionist entity with an end to their contract on Israeli television) featured quotes by Zionist heavy weights, like Shimon Peres who voiced his concern that his country will not get away with committing the massacre.
The army representatives changed the speculation on the number of casualties from a few hundred, to HUNDREDS and later to dozens…
Keep in mind, that as individuals you must suspend all judgment.
So even when it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and smells like a duck,
It is a rooster
Talk shows, mainly on CNN ( which in and around that time was threatened by the Zionist entity with an end to their contract on Israeli television) featured quotes by Zionist heavy weights, like Shimon Peres who voiced his concern that his country will not get away with committing the massacre.
The army representatives changed the speculation on the number of casualties from a few hundred, to HUNDREDS and later to dozens…
Keep in mind, that as individuals you must suspend all judgment.
So even when it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and smells like a duck,
It is a rooster
Justin Huggler (Gaza) and Phil Reeves (Jerusalem), both correspondents for the respected UK Independent, were two of the first journalists in Jenin once permission by Israel was granted for media access to the ruins. Together and separate they sent out dispatches to their newspaper, and their horror at the destruction that greeted them in Jenin is palpable in their reports.
In their joint "Once Upon A Time in Jenin" they describe how the 800 home neighbourhood was reduced to dust, mounds of rubble, bodies scattered amongst the ruins and under the ruins, the stench of death overpowering.
We learn about some of the victims too; for instance, 14 year old Faris Zeben, who went for groceries with a couple of neighbours when the curfew was lifted, and was shot dead in cold blood; or 15 year old Mohammed Hawashin, who was walking through the camp and was shot by the IDF. A nurse, Fadwa Jamma, wearing her white nurse's uniform, rushed to help 19 year old Hani Rumeleh, who had been shot whilst looking out his door. The army shot her.
When the media descended on the area, however, and international fury directed at Israel began mounting, the Israeli government launched a massive PR campaign. Phil and Justin write as follows:
"The Israelis have lashed out at the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) and the Palestine Red Crescent, whose ambulances were barred from entering the camp for six [sic] days. It accused them of refusing to allow the army to search their vehicles, and of smuggling out Palestinians posing as wounded. The ICRC dismissed the claim as nonsence, describing the ban - which violates the Geneva Convention - as 'uncaceptable'"
But the International Committee of the Red Cross wasn't the only one singled out for vilification. The UN Envoy to the Middle East, Terje Roed-Larsen, could barely contain his anger at the devastation that he saw upon arrival in the Camp. Those of us who saw that particular news clip will recall how palpable that anger was. Describing it as "horrific beyond belief" he went on to add that it will be "a blot on the history of the State of Israel".
Well! An uproar there! An Envoy from the UN had dared criticize Israel! Sharon was furious, and he and his government members condemned Mr. Larsen for his comments; in fact, one member went so far as to say that he was "racist, anti-semite, and an apparent criminal". (Note: I kid you not.)
The thrust of the campaign, however, was that "Palestinians blew up the neighbourhood compelling the army to knock it down".
As the correspondents wrote:
"While there Palestinian booby traps around the camps, these are devices typically used by a retreating force against an invading one. Here the Palestinians had nowhere to go".
"Additionally there persists the rumour that bodies had been removed by the Israeli army".
This stems in part from the different stats by the IDF, who first stated there were 100 dead; then that was changed to "hundreds of dead and wounded", finally about "two dozen."
On the 18th of April, 2002, Derrick Founder, a forsenic pathologist from Dundee University, at the camp
working with Amnesty International, stated:
"Claims that a large number of civilian died and are under rubble are highly credible. It is not believeable that only a few people have been killed given the reports that a large number of people were inside three or four storey buildings when they were demolished".
Meanwhile, Richard Cook, Head of Operations for Unrwa, a UN Envoy for Palesetine refugees, stated:
"I was absolutely appalled. I expected it to a degree, but the devastation was much greater than I expected".
See:
http: //http://www.jamiat.org.za/palestine/oncejenin.html
http://www.palestiine monitor.org/special%20/section/articlesjenin.html
.
In their joint "Once Upon A Time in Jenin" they describe how the 800 home neighbourhood was reduced to dust, mounds of rubble, bodies scattered amongst the ruins and under the ruins, the stench of death overpowering.
We learn about some of the victims too; for instance, 14 year old Faris Zeben, who went for groceries with a couple of neighbours when the curfew was lifted, and was shot dead in cold blood; or 15 year old Mohammed Hawashin, who was walking through the camp and was shot by the IDF. A nurse, Fadwa Jamma, wearing her white nurse's uniform, rushed to help 19 year old Hani Rumeleh, who had been shot whilst looking out his door. The army shot her.
When the media descended on the area, however, and international fury directed at Israel began mounting, the Israeli government launched a massive PR campaign. Phil and Justin write as follows:
"The Israelis have lashed out at the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) and the Palestine Red Crescent, whose ambulances were barred from entering the camp for six [sic] days. It accused them of refusing to allow the army to search their vehicles, and of smuggling out Palestinians posing as wounded. The ICRC dismissed the claim as nonsence, describing the ban - which violates the Geneva Convention - as 'uncaceptable'"
But the International Committee of the Red Cross wasn't the only one singled out for vilification. The UN Envoy to the Middle East, Terje Roed-Larsen, could barely contain his anger at the devastation that he saw upon arrival in the Camp. Those of us who saw that particular news clip will recall how palpable that anger was. Describing it as "horrific beyond belief" he went on to add that it will be "a blot on the history of the State of Israel".
Well! An uproar there! An Envoy from the UN had dared criticize Israel! Sharon was furious, and he and his government members condemned Mr. Larsen for his comments; in fact, one member went so far as to say that he was "racist, anti-semite, and an apparent criminal". (Note: I kid you not.)
The thrust of the campaign, however, was that "Palestinians blew up the neighbourhood compelling the army to knock it down".
As the correspondents wrote:
"While there Palestinian booby traps around the camps, these are devices typically used by a retreating force against an invading one. Here the Palestinians had nowhere to go".
"Additionally there persists the rumour that bodies had been removed by the Israeli army".
This stems in part from the different stats by the IDF, who first stated there were 100 dead; then that was changed to "hundreds of dead and wounded", finally about "two dozen."
On the 18th of April, 2002, Derrick Founder, a forsenic pathologist from Dundee University, at the camp
working with Amnesty International, stated:
"Claims that a large number of civilian died and are under rubble are highly credible. It is not believeable that only a few people have been killed given the reports that a large number of people were inside three or four storey buildings when they were demolished".
Meanwhile, Richard Cook, Head of Operations for Unrwa, a UN Envoy for Palesetine refugees, stated:
"I was absolutely appalled. I expected it to a degree, but the devastation was much greater than I expected".
See:
http: //http://www.jamiat.org.za/palestine/oncejenin.html
http://www.palestiine monitor.org/special%20/section/articlesjenin.html
.
If a homicide in America involving one death can be described as a massacre, and another involving 5-deaths is also described as a massacre. And a few reports by agencies - that probably feel that their mission might be endangered - describe what can only described as a massacre, but avoid using the word massacre, it doesn't make the style of these deaths an un-massacre (unless you want to reserve this word for anybody... except Palestinians).
Your aversion to the word "massacre" proves my point about you.
Why aren't you attacking the point made in every single report stating "warcrimes were committed.
Your aversion to the word "massacre" proves my point about you.
Why aren't you attacking the point made in every single report stating "warcrimes were committed.
Your previous posting was quite troublesome, thank you for posting it as I had no idea.
I am glad to know that there are people out there who are willing to sacrifice of their time to get to the bottom of what did happen.
The apologists keep trying to burry the Truth under a pile of Lies but their innuendos stink to the Heavens above and its impossible to continue ignoring their stench.
We Shall NO Longer stand idly by as the truth is buried under the rubble with the Jenin massacre victims.
I am glad to know that there are people out there who are willing to sacrifice of their time to get to the bottom of what did happen.
The apologists keep trying to burry the Truth under a pile of Lies but their innuendos stink to the Heavens above and its impossible to continue ignoring their stench.
We Shall NO Longer stand idly by as the truth is buried under the rubble with the Jenin massacre victims.
As usual, Angie isn't interested in discussion, she'll continue to engage in her mind-numbed cut-and-paste spam-propaganda fest -- as if that proves anything beyond her own impartiality.
But at least she posts under her own name, while other anonymous persons give us laughs as these:
?> After reading the various reports of the NGOs specified ["massacre" definitions] #1 and #2 apply.
Yet the NGOs report quoted by the anonymous poster said just the opposite:
|| Human Rights Watch found no evidence to sustain claims of massacres or large-scale extrajudicial executions by the IDF in Jenin
Anon makes a to-do about definition #4, "complete destruction", yet the very pictures s/he provided clearly show that the damage was limited to one small area of one part of the city (where the fighting took place).
So no, there was no "complete destruction".
Confronted by these crazy contradictions, anon's comeback is:
?> Why aren't you attacking [another] point
We'll get to the next point after we're done with the above (otherwise, if I address the other point you'll shift back to this point).
But at least she posts under her own name, while other anonymous persons give us laughs as these:
?> After reading the various reports of the NGOs specified ["massacre" definitions] #1 and #2 apply.
Yet the NGOs report quoted by the anonymous poster said just the opposite:
|| Human Rights Watch found no evidence to sustain claims of massacres or large-scale extrajudicial executions by the IDF in Jenin
Anon makes a to-do about definition #4, "complete destruction", yet the very pictures s/he provided clearly show that the damage was limited to one small area of one part of the city (where the fighting took place).
So no, there was no "complete destruction".
Confronted by these crazy contradictions, anon's comeback is:
?> Why aren't you attacking [another] point
We'll get to the next point after we're done with the above (otherwise, if I address the other point you'll shift back to this point).
Human Rights Watch found no evidence to sustain claims of massacres or large-scale extrajudicial executions by the IDF in Jenin because the IDF barred HRW from entering the Jenin refugee camp to look for evidence in the First place.
d`oh
d`oh
If the massacre did occur,
would the zionists admit to it or would they deny it ...
would the zionists admit to it or would they deny it ...
people who are able to commit a massacre are able to lie about it agterward.
yeah specially when their names are Fatah hamas islamic jihad or any of the other similar groups who looked exactly like innocent civilians when they talked to the robert fisks of this world about their massacare.
Oh no but terrorist organizations wouldnt do that!! lying to liberal reporters?? thats like far beyond killing inocent civilians! even if it is more productive.
Oh no but terrorist organizations wouldnt do that!! lying to liberal reporters?? thats like far beyond killing inocent civilians! even if it is more productive.
Obviously, my friend, atrocities of a horrific nature occurred in Jenin. Why else would the Israeli PR machine start cranking out its propaganda the moment the press was finally allowed inside the camp (several days after the event).
And vilifying a UN Envoy to the Middle East? "Racist, anti-semite, and an apparent criminal". I hardly think that Roed-Larsen fits that, but this is the usual behaviour whenever Israel is attempting to cover up its misdeeds. It simply blames the other person, the other country, the UN, the rest of the world.
If you go back through the history of Israel, you'll see the same thing repeated after every massacre, every misdeed, every foray into the Occupied Territories.
It is always someone else's fault. Someone is vilified, someone has his or her character assassinated..
It's served the Israeli governments past and present well as they moan to the world about Arab wrongdoings, about perceived threats, about self defence.
The only reason certain people try to vilify Robert Fisk, the brilliant correspondent from the Independent who has covered this hell hole for over 20 years, is because he is totally unconcerned with this sort of character assassination, even to threats on his life.
He tells it as it is, as he sees it on the ground, and those of us intelligent enough and blessed not to have been brainwashed, are damn glad he is there.
Jenin? Yes, a massacre by any other name.
And vilifying a UN Envoy to the Middle East? "Racist, anti-semite, and an apparent criminal". I hardly think that Roed-Larsen fits that, but this is the usual behaviour whenever Israel is attempting to cover up its misdeeds. It simply blames the other person, the other country, the UN, the rest of the world.
If you go back through the history of Israel, you'll see the same thing repeated after every massacre, every misdeed, every foray into the Occupied Territories.
It is always someone else's fault. Someone is vilified, someone has his or her character assassinated..
It's served the Israeli governments past and present well as they moan to the world about Arab wrongdoings, about perceived threats, about self defence.
The only reason certain people try to vilify Robert Fisk, the brilliant correspondent from the Independent who has covered this hell hole for over 20 years, is because he is totally unconcerned with this sort of character assassination, even to threats on his life.
He tells it as it is, as he sees it on the ground, and those of us intelligent enough and blessed not to have been brainwashed, are damn glad he is there.
Jenin? Yes, a massacre by any other name.
a) until December past I refused to hook up to the Internet; was always too busy
b) I am a UK Independent subscriber, thus I had the newspapers in question readily available;
c) I did not have a clue what "cut and paste" meant so I called my computer people this a.m. and had it explained to me;
d) if anyone had been around when I was typing the above spiel last night and inadvertently lost same, thus having to retype it, no one would accuse me of "cutting and pasting". Of being able to swear with a vengence, maybe, but not "cutting and pastiing".
I do, indeed, live a very sheltered life.
b) I am a UK Independent subscriber, thus I had the newspapers in question readily available;
c) I did not have a clue what "cut and paste" meant so I called my computer people this a.m. and had it explained to me;
d) if anyone had been around when I was typing the above spiel last night and inadvertently lost same, thus having to retype it, no one would accuse me of "cutting and pasting". Of being able to swear with a vengence, maybe, but not "cutting and pastiing".
I do, indeed, live a very sheltered life.
"Obviously, my friend, atrocities of a horrific nature occurred in Jenin. Why else would the Israeli PR machine start cranking out its propaganda the moment the press was finally allowed inside the camp (several days after the event)."
Do you think that the palistinian fighters etc dont have their own "PR machine"? if you think that you ae very nieve. the big difference is that their PR machine (largely just getting individuals to say stuff to reporters) is not accountable to anyone.
"If you go back through the history of Israel, you'll see the same thing repeated after every massacre, every misdeed, every foray into the Occupied Territories."
-If you believe the anti israeli side. if oyu brelieve the pro israel side it is a history of people making up stuff and israel slowly refuting them.
"The only reason certain people try to vilify Robert Fisk, the brilliant correspondent from the Independent who has covered this hell hole for over 20 years, is because he is totally unconcerned with this sort of character assassination, even to threats on his life."
We have so many times pointed out the afactual errors of his articles and yet you stil think he is a "brillient correspondant" still mroe proof that your oppinions are "faith based" and not logic based
Very few of us actuallly want to threaten Fisk's life he is safer in a conservative conference than he is in afganistain amongst the alquaeda etc.
"He tells it as it is, as he sees it on the ground, and those of us intelligent enough and blessed not to have been brainwashed, are damn glad he is there."
cult alert.. even if its a personality cult
Do you think that the palistinian fighters etc dont have their own "PR machine"? if you think that you ae very nieve. the big difference is that their PR machine (largely just getting individuals to say stuff to reporters) is not accountable to anyone.
"If you go back through the history of Israel, you'll see the same thing repeated after every massacre, every misdeed, every foray into the Occupied Territories."
-If you believe the anti israeli side. if oyu brelieve the pro israel side it is a history of people making up stuff and israel slowly refuting them.
"The only reason certain people try to vilify Robert Fisk, the brilliant correspondent from the Independent who has covered this hell hole for over 20 years, is because he is totally unconcerned with this sort of character assassination, even to threats on his life."
We have so many times pointed out the afactual errors of his articles and yet you stil think he is a "brillient correspondant" still mroe proof that your oppinions are "faith based" and not logic based
Very few of us actuallly want to threaten Fisk's life he is safer in a conservative conference than he is in afganistain amongst the alquaeda etc.
"He tells it as it is, as he sees it on the ground, and those of us intelligent enough and blessed not to have been brainwashed, are damn glad he is there."
cult alert.. even if its a personality cult
Any discourse on Israel, its misdeeds or massacres, would be blatantly incomplete without turning to Uri Avnery for assistance. Here is a man who has seen first hand what the IDF and the Government can (and has) done to the Palestinians, and, in fact, its own citizens.
Uri, a Jew living in Israel, has been promoting a separate and distinct Palestinian state since 1948; he was the first Israeli to make contact with the PLO in 1974; and we all know about his "crossing the lines" in Beirut in '82 to meet with Yasser Arafat, an act for which certain members of the Israeli government wanted him tried for high treason. (I kid you not!)
He's been a journalist for over fifty years, a member of Knesset, marched with Israelis and Palestinians for peace, formed Gush Shalom (peace bloc).
He's been tear-gassed by the IDF on several occasions; has had his newspaper offices destroyed by arson; was ambushed and had both hands broken for criticizing the infamous Kibieh massacre of 1954; and barely survived an assassination attempt in 1975 when he suffered severe knife wounds. (Interesting to note that his attacker was declared "mad")
If there is any high profile individual in Israel today that one can trust, it's Uri Avnery, so I intend to devote this spiel re Jenin to his views on same.
A few days ago I mentioned some points made in his article "In Jenin I Founded". Today I want to look at "Something Stinks", published on 20 April 2002, which will help understand Jenin a lot more.
The real truth, as I've said constantly, with respect to how many Palestinians died may never be known. It's interesting and a relief that Uri agrees with me. He says early in his "Something Stinks", that, and I quote here how he bluntly described it (writing from long hand notes made earlier, KL):
"The truth lies buried beneath the rubble and smells atrociously".
He goes on to list four factors that are incontestable, and these are as follows:
a) journalists denied entry to the Camp;
b) ambulances denied access to the Camp;
c) no one allowed in to clean up and assist in the search for bodies;
d) food, water, and medications not allowed to be brought into the Camp.
We'll now expand briefly on the four points listed above.
a) the explanation given as to why journalists and photographers were kept out of the Camp during the fighting was a concern for their safety. Uri dismisses that with the scorn it deserves.
"They did not ask the Army to save them", he writes. "They were quite ready to risk their lives as journalists and photographers do in any war".
b) keeping out ambulances and medical aid, thus allowing individuals to die a slow death in the streets or under the rubble infuriated Mr. Avnery.
"This is a war crime, a 'manifestly illegal order' over which the 'black flag of illegality' flies. Under Israel laws and even more so under internatioonal law and conventions, to which Israel is a party, soldiers are forbidden to obey such an order". (My note: Yet in Jenin they carried out these orders, didn't they?)
In fact, Uri doesn't give a damn how many died or who they were. He states emphatically:
"It makes no difference whether civilians or 'armed men', one person or a hundred died in these circumstances. As a method of warfare it is inhuman".
c) with respect to the assesrtion people were not allowed to aid in a rescue operation and maybe find people alive under the rubble, because the bodies might be "mined", Uri dismisses this derisively, stating that if rescue teams wanted to help, the Army should not have stopped them.
d) Uri is well aware that food, water, and medications were not supplied to the Camp during the several days of fighting, and when he and several Israeli peace activists followed a truck convoy to the camp, they were not permitted entry; the trucks, however, proceeded through, but it was later learned that the supplies were offloaded in an army camp with only four reaching their destination.
By keeping the media and peace activists out of Jenin, the army knew rumours of a massacre would erupt, and, of course, they did (and still do). However, Uri states that this didn't daunt the IDF any. "They preferred the rumour of a massacre to the disclosure of the truth".
"What", he asks angrily, "is the height of cyncism"? And answering his own question he states:
"When one blocks up free access to a place and then argues that no one has the right to say what happened there because he has not seen it with his own eyes".
Uri feels that the most damning evidence with respect to Jenin is that the minute the fighting stopped, the Israel government and army went into a high rate propaganda mode to attempt a minimization of the atrocities in Jenin. These discussions were out in the open, even on TV talk shows so Uri wasn't the only one to hear them.
He explains:
"It was said before hand that Palestinians were to spread a "horrible lie", that they were ready to heap dead bodies in the street (from where?). It almost got to the point of saying that the Palestinians had blown up their homes over their families in order to create a blood libel".
We also learn that some of the Camp was cleaned up, and complicit journalists, together with innocent foreigners, were met by a "humane" officer denying that any massacre took place. Uri describes the charade as reminding him "of other regimes".
Mr. Averny had hoped, as did all of us who wanted the truth to get out, that a strong international inquiry would help. (We know that didn't happen). But he had other questions.
For instance, what was the intention behind Jenin? Why did the civilian and military leaderships decide to deal with the Jenin camp like this?
"The only answers I can come up with", he says, answering his own questions, "is in Jenin the Palestinians decided to stand up and fight. The rape of Jenin was intended to send a message to the Palestinians - this will be the lot of everyone who resists the IDF. Also it could cause a Deir Yassen type mass flight".
Uri Avnery does not believe anything so accommodating to Israel will happen, however, regardless of what the Israeli government and its IDF do.
"Only a fool", he says, "would believe this will end the resistance to the occupation".
Uri, a Jew living in Israel, has been promoting a separate and distinct Palestinian state since 1948; he was the first Israeli to make contact with the PLO in 1974; and we all know about his "crossing the lines" in Beirut in '82 to meet with Yasser Arafat, an act for which certain members of the Israeli government wanted him tried for high treason. (I kid you not!)
He's been a journalist for over fifty years, a member of Knesset, marched with Israelis and Palestinians for peace, formed Gush Shalom (peace bloc).
He's been tear-gassed by the IDF on several occasions; has had his newspaper offices destroyed by arson; was ambushed and had both hands broken for criticizing the infamous Kibieh massacre of 1954; and barely survived an assassination attempt in 1975 when he suffered severe knife wounds. (Interesting to note that his attacker was declared "mad")
If there is any high profile individual in Israel today that one can trust, it's Uri Avnery, so I intend to devote this spiel re Jenin to his views on same.
A few days ago I mentioned some points made in his article "In Jenin I Founded". Today I want to look at "Something Stinks", published on 20 April 2002, which will help understand Jenin a lot more.
The real truth, as I've said constantly, with respect to how many Palestinians died may never be known. It's interesting and a relief that Uri agrees with me. He says early in his "Something Stinks", that, and I quote here how he bluntly described it (writing from long hand notes made earlier, KL):
"The truth lies buried beneath the rubble and smells atrociously".
He goes on to list four factors that are incontestable, and these are as follows:
a) journalists denied entry to the Camp;
b) ambulances denied access to the Camp;
c) no one allowed in to clean up and assist in the search for bodies;
d) food, water, and medications not allowed to be brought into the Camp.
We'll now expand briefly on the four points listed above.
a) the explanation given as to why journalists and photographers were kept out of the Camp during the fighting was a concern for their safety. Uri dismisses that with the scorn it deserves.
"They did not ask the Army to save them", he writes. "They were quite ready to risk their lives as journalists and photographers do in any war".
b) keeping out ambulances and medical aid, thus allowing individuals to die a slow death in the streets or under the rubble infuriated Mr. Avnery.
"This is a war crime, a 'manifestly illegal order' over which the 'black flag of illegality' flies. Under Israel laws and even more so under internatioonal law and conventions, to which Israel is a party, soldiers are forbidden to obey such an order". (My note: Yet in Jenin they carried out these orders, didn't they?)
In fact, Uri doesn't give a damn how many died or who they were. He states emphatically:
"It makes no difference whether civilians or 'armed men', one person or a hundred died in these circumstances. As a method of warfare it is inhuman".
c) with respect to the assesrtion people were not allowed to aid in a rescue operation and maybe find people alive under the rubble, because the bodies might be "mined", Uri dismisses this derisively, stating that if rescue teams wanted to help, the Army should not have stopped them.
d) Uri is well aware that food, water, and medications were not supplied to the Camp during the several days of fighting, and when he and several Israeli peace activists followed a truck convoy to the camp, they were not permitted entry; the trucks, however, proceeded through, but it was later learned that the supplies were offloaded in an army camp with only four reaching their destination.
By keeping the media and peace activists out of Jenin, the army knew rumours of a massacre would erupt, and, of course, they did (and still do). However, Uri states that this didn't daunt the IDF any. "They preferred the rumour of a massacre to the disclosure of the truth".
"What", he asks angrily, "is the height of cyncism"? And answering his own question he states:
"When one blocks up free access to a place and then argues that no one has the right to say what happened there because he has not seen it with his own eyes".
Uri feels that the most damning evidence with respect to Jenin is that the minute the fighting stopped, the Israel government and army went into a high rate propaganda mode to attempt a minimization of the atrocities in Jenin. These discussions were out in the open, even on TV talk shows so Uri wasn't the only one to hear them.
He explains:
"It was said before hand that Palestinians were to spread a "horrible lie", that they were ready to heap dead bodies in the street (from where?). It almost got to the point of saying that the Palestinians had blown up their homes over their families in order to create a blood libel".
We also learn that some of the Camp was cleaned up, and complicit journalists, together with innocent foreigners, were met by a "humane" officer denying that any massacre took place. Uri describes the charade as reminding him "of other regimes".
Mr. Averny had hoped, as did all of us who wanted the truth to get out, that a strong international inquiry would help. (We know that didn't happen). But he had other questions.
For instance, what was the intention behind Jenin? Why did the civilian and military leaderships decide to deal with the Jenin camp like this?
"The only answers I can come up with", he says, answering his own questions, "is in Jenin the Palestinians decided to stand up and fight. The rape of Jenin was intended to send a message to the Palestinians - this will be the lot of everyone who resists the IDF. Also it could cause a Deir Yassen type mass flight".
Uri Avnery does not believe anything so accommodating to Israel will happen, however, regardless of what the Israeli government and its IDF do.
"Only a fool", he says, "would believe this will end the resistance to the occupation".
are you palnning to stock dear uri next?
angie you should read the interview with a soldier who took part in the none- massacre.
his name is curdie- a nickname that signifies he's a Curd. and he the beneficery of a metal for bravery issued despite his revealing anecdote with the mainstream press in the Jewish nation.
his name is curdie- a nickname that signifies he's a Curd. and he the beneficery of a metal for bravery issued despite his revealing anecdote with the mainstream press in the Jewish nation.
I guess you know a lot about the Jenin massacre, in fact, about the rest of the world, residing, as you do, in the gutter.
Do you know where this article is?
I think I may have read it. It sounds familiar; in any event, if you have a site where I can find it, let me have it, and I'll see what it's all about.
I think I may have read it. It sounds familiar; in any event, if you have a site where I can find it, let me have it, and I'll see what it's all about.
You can google "curdie" and the incursion and see what article comes up.
Fine. I'll search and see what happens.
I've searched Goggle and Yahoo, but no match was found for several different word combinations.
Guess if anyone else knows where to find this, he or she can let us know.
Guess if anyone else knows where to find this, he or she can let us know.
Google search string:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=bulldozer+%2Bjenin
The 'original' report
http://lists.peacelink.it/news/msg02405.html
Demolishing Jenin: riding a 60 ton bulldozer
http://www.labournet.net/world/0206/jenin1.html
The Battle of Jenin
http://www.time.com/time/2002/jenin/story.html
One of the entries here is listed as a satire... it is said: 'satire mirrors life...'
Bloodstains Found on Bulldozer Blades
http://csf.colorado.edu/forums/peace/apr03/msg00008.html
Some 'other' Jenin links probably missed:
Palestine under attack
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/Feature/jenin_by_lee_hockstader_washingt.htm
Hundreds of victims 'were buried by bulldozer in mass grave'
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/04/13/wmid213.xml
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=bulldozer+%2Bjenin
The 'original' report
http://lists.peacelink.it/news/msg02405.html
Demolishing Jenin: riding a 60 ton bulldozer
http://www.labournet.net/world/0206/jenin1.html
The Battle of Jenin
http://www.time.com/time/2002/jenin/story.html
One of the entries here is listed as a satire... it is said: 'satire mirrors life...'
Bloodstains Found on Bulldozer Blades
http://csf.colorado.edu/forums/peace/apr03/msg00008.html
Some 'other' Jenin links probably missed:
Palestine under attack
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/Feature/jenin_by_lee_hockstader_washingt.htm
Hundreds of victims 'were buried by bulldozer in mass grave'
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/04/13/wmid213.xml
I'll do that later on. (Is it worth my time to do so???)
I'm afraid I haven't had time to check out that info you gave me on Friday either, but I will, my friend, I will. Sometime during the week when things are not so hectic. I've heard of Anne Gwynne. If I'm not mistaken, JA brought her to the attention of the Board here a while ago. You and he have "Flashpoints" in common!
I'm afraid I haven't had time to check out that info you gave me on Friday either, but I will, my friend, I will. Sometime during the week when things are not so hectic. I've heard of Anne Gwynne. If I'm not mistaken, JA brought her to the attention of the Board here a while ago. You and he have "Flashpoints" in common!
Apparently remarks are being made using the 'identities' of others.
While the practice can be... in the least... distracting. It should not be necessary, to note that it is usually very easy to discern the difference between what 'usually' appear to be 'one-line hit-and-runs', against the 'normal' writing style of a poster.
While the practice can be... in the least... distracting. It should not be necessary, to note that it is usually very easy to discern the difference between what 'usually' appear to be 'one-line hit-and-runs', against the 'normal' writing style of a poster.
Certainly if people out there haven't been able lto recognize my writing style by now, they never will.
Likewise other regular contrinbutors such as JA, Scottie, KL, Gehrig, Abraham, Brian, etc. are easily recognizable.
Sometimes, however, those stolen "by lines" make life a bit more wearisome than a mere distraction for the real party involved. I would never have checked the Savage post had I not seen your "!" in the commentary page. Glad I did; otherwise, I'd be blissfully unaware that I'm supporting some hate mongering idiot in SF!
Likewise other regular contrinbutors such as JA, Scottie, KL, Gehrig, Abraham, Brian, etc. are easily recognizable.
Sometimes, however, those stolen "by lines" make life a bit more wearisome than a mere distraction for the real party involved. I would never have checked the Savage post had I not seen your "!" in the commentary page. Glad I did; otherwise, I'd be blissfully unaware that I'm supporting some hate mongering idiot in SF!
That's funny. The israeli side, the palestinian side and the UN side all agree that around 50something palestinians were killed in jenin, most of whom were involved in actual fighting, yet idiots still insist that "hundreds were buried in mass graves" hahahahah
Apparantly some people are satisfied with only scanning the headlines. If 'haha' had actually read the story, he could have made an intelligent comment.
I will be submitting the next installment of "Jenin not Going Quietly into the Night Not Now or Ever (cont'd)" later on today.
Did you read my thing on jenin from Reeves? cant seem to find it now nngh
leave it for a little while, Scottie.
I am once again having to type denials of posts bearing my name that are totally false. I'm trying to finish my Jenin spiel, and my head is pounding. It's such a bleeding hot evening with extreme humidity, and I was foolish enough to cook supper instead of making a sandwich. I feel like I'm in an oven.
Yes, I read what you said about Phil Reeves. And I told you that I am a subscriber to the UK Independent. Naturally I know whatever Reeves says, and I'll check into that in more detail later.
I note, however, that Justin Huggler continued to incur the wrath and derision of that oh, so biased "Honest Reporting" gang. Don't tell me that's your source!
I am once again having to type denials of posts bearing my name that are totally false. I'm trying to finish my Jenin spiel, and my head is pounding. It's such a bleeding hot evening with extreme humidity, and I was foolish enough to cook supper instead of making a sandwich. I feel like I'm in an oven.
Yes, I read what you said about Phil Reeves. And I told you that I am a subscriber to the UK Independent. Naturally I know whatever Reeves says, and I'll check into that in more detail later.
I note, however, that Justin Huggler continued to incur the wrath and derision of that oh, so biased "Honest Reporting" gang. Don't tell me that's your source!
that and some guy I was talking to on another web site. then I went to the independants site..
anyone who appologies is A-OK with me. I totally understand how a reporter for a certain type of paper would be under pressure to produce a report and a conclusion before all the evidence was in. If he admits that he was wrong later he shows integrity. Anyone can be wrong as a result of lack of information.
anyone who appologies is A-OK with me. I totally understand how a reporter for a certain type of paper would be under pressure to produce a report and a conclusion before all the evidence was in. If he admits that he was wrong later he shows integrity. Anyone can be wrong as a result of lack of information.
Forget about "Honest Reporting".
It's but to laugh. Haven't you noticed anything about their site? No, maybe you wouldn't.
It's but to laugh. Haven't you noticed anything about their site? No, maybe you wouldn't.
Forget about Fisk, Pilger, etc etc
It's but to laugh. Haven't you noticed anything about them? No, maybe you wouldn't.
It's but to laugh. Haven't you noticed anything about them? No, maybe you wouldn't.
Have you ever read anything by Dr. Gwynne Dyer?
If not, why not???
(Sorry, Scottie, I'm being way too frivolous this late evening. Humidity does that to me!)
We are not angry, no?
And seriously Dyer is MY HERO!!! Everyone else I've mentioned line up behind him so to speak.
He wasn't too impressed with Jenin either, however. But he is a universal columnist and is not stuck on the "Conflict", but deals with all the other hell holes on earth as well. His column appears weekly in our newspaper here, and it began in 1984.
So I spent most of my free time last spring/summer stuck in front of the microfiche copier at the library copying each one year after year. Talk about devotion to the task at hand! Not to mention a wee hole in my finances! One must pay for copies, you know, or this one had to.
By the time I finished said task everyone at the library and half the city knew that if Gwynne ever had a number one fan, it was I (me).
But as I don't know where you are residing, I can't say if you've had an opportunity to avail of his expertise. His columns appear just about everywhere in the world.
So Angie is going to start the infamous spiel re Jenin now (if my hands stop sticking to the keys) and I am sure thou shalt have a comment or two later perchance once thou hast read same.
Oh, Scottie, archive this wee missive, will you? It's hardly likely I'll be this jovial again, if ever!, whilst responding to your posts addressed to me. But on the other hand, who knows???.
I AM HAPPy!!!!!
If not, why not???
(Sorry, Scottie, I'm being way too frivolous this late evening. Humidity does that to me!)
We are not angry, no?
And seriously Dyer is MY HERO!!! Everyone else I've mentioned line up behind him so to speak.
He wasn't too impressed with Jenin either, however. But he is a universal columnist and is not stuck on the "Conflict", but deals with all the other hell holes on earth as well. His column appears weekly in our newspaper here, and it began in 1984.
So I spent most of my free time last spring/summer stuck in front of the microfiche copier at the library copying each one year after year. Talk about devotion to the task at hand! Not to mention a wee hole in my finances! One must pay for copies, you know, or this one had to.
By the time I finished said task everyone at the library and half the city knew that if Gwynne ever had a number one fan, it was I (me).
But as I don't know where you are residing, I can't say if you've had an opportunity to avail of his expertise. His columns appear just about everywhere in the world.
So Angie is going to start the infamous spiel re Jenin now (if my hands stop sticking to the keys) and I am sure thou shalt have a comment or two later perchance once thou hast read same.
Oh, Scottie, archive this wee missive, will you? It's hardly likely I'll be this jovial again, if ever!, whilst responding to your posts addressed to me. But on the other hand, who knows???.
I AM HAPPy!!!!!
1.The definition of a “massacre”:
The act or instance of killing a large number of humans indiscriminately and cruelly.
2.The following interview with a medal of courage winner who has engaged in the battle of Jenin clearly describes a massacre.
This was published in Yediot Aharonot, Israel's most widely circulated tabloid paper, on May 31, 2002. It is the first absolutely sincere Israeli eye-witness testimony on what actually happened in Jenin, by one of those who did it and are proud of it.
Apart from the shocking revelations, this is also a startling human document.
After publication - and in spite of it - the unit to which the man belongs received from the army command an official citation for outstanding service.
"I made them a stadium in the middle of the camp"
I entered Jenin, driven by madness, by desperation, in the worst condition
possible.
I told my wife: "If anything happens to me, at least someone will take care of
you".
The funny bit was, I didn't even know how to operate the D-9.
Within two hours, they taught me to drive forwards, and make a flat surface.
I tied the 'Beitar' football team flag to the back of the bulldozer and told them: "Move away, let me work.".
For three days, I just erased and erased
I kept drinking whisky to fight off fatigue
I didn't see dead bodies under the blade of the D-9, but I don't care if there
where any.
By Tsadok Yeheskeli, Yediot Aharonot.
Moshe Nissim, nicknamed "Kurdi Bear(1)", the D-9 operator who became the terror of the Jenin refugee camp inhabitants, speaks with no censorship about his time of glory.
"I entered Jenin driven by madness, by desperation, I felt I have nothing to loose, That even if I 'get it', no big deal.
I told my wife: "If anything happens to me, at least someone will take care of you!".
I started my reserve service, in the worst conditions possible. Maybe this is why I didn't give a damn. Not about explosive charges, not about gun fire.
"My life was in deep shit for the past one and a half years. For almost half a year I am suspended from work as a senior inspector in the Jerusalem municipality.
I worked there for 17 years, till that cursed day, January the 20th, exactly my 40th birthday, when the police came and arrested me.
They said that I and my colleagues in the inspection unit are suspected for being bribed by contractors and other business owners, that in fact, we are a corrupted bunch.
"This is a terrible injustice. I am a very friendly guy, and in this job you mix with people you inspect. But bribery? Me?
I am in debt for hundreds of thousands of Shekels long before all this story. Had I taken bribes, I would have money, but I couldn't even pay the lawyer. Since then I am suspended. My wife was fired as well, and I have four children to keep.
"This was not the first blow. A few months earlier, I was injured badly in my back, my wife was fired, and my son got run over and had to be operated to save his leg.
Today he is OK, but his big dream, and mine, that he will once be a player in the Beitar Jerusalem team, this dream is probably gone forever. Pity. He was really talented. I have already promised him to get him into the children's Beitar team.
"For two years, it is just one blow after another. I haven't got a cent, but I love people. I cannot be indifferent. Every holiday, I distribute food packages for the needy. The same at Passover. I ran around like crazy. And just then, I started getting phone calls from the guys: "Kurdi", they said, "we are all being recruited to do reserve service, but you are not called."
"Truth is, that I understood my commanders. Hey, I've been doing my reserves duty for 16 years now, and I was useless. I did nothing but make trouble.
"During my obligatory Military service(2) I was constantly sentenced to prison, because I refused to be a vehicle electrician. In my unit as well, in the bulldozer unit, I was supposed to be an electrician, but actually, I did nothing, just messed around. I would come to the unit, and immediately open a card table, open a bottle. If any officer would dare send me to guard duty, I would send him first. Kurdi always did his thing.
If I felt like going to a Beitar football match, or going home, no one could stop me. I would just start the car and go.
"Truth is, they didn't even know me. When I am given responsibility, I can act differently, In the "Versailles" disaster(3) I was in charge of all the inspection team on location. When I was seen by one of the guys of my military unit, he was shocked.
He said: "In the army you can't tie your shoelaces, and here you are a big chief!"
The truth is that when I finally decide to do something, I am one stubborn guy. I will go for it till the end. This time was one of those moments. What haven't I done for them to take me? I sent the guys to twist the battalion commander's arm, I phoned the company commander, I drove them mad. "I promise to work", I pleaded with the battalion commander. Finally, he agreed to give me a chance.
"I said to myself: "Kurdi, you can't let them down. No more running wild!".
The speaker is Moshe Nissim, AKA "Moshe Nissim Beitar Jerusalem".
In the Jenin refugee camp, he was called, over the military radio: "Kurdi Bear".
Kurdi, because this is the name he insisted on. Bear, after the D-9 he was driving, demolishing house after house.
There was not one soldier in Jenin that did not hear this name. Kurdi Bear was considered the most devoted, brave and probably the most destructive operator.
A man, that the Jenin camp inquiry committee, would want very much to have a word with.
For 75 hours, with no break, he sat on the huge bulldozer, charges exploding around him, and erased house after house.
His story, which he tells openly and with no inhibitions, is far from being a regular war myth. Medals, so it seems, will not be awarded for it. (Actually, his company was later awarded a citation for outstanding service.)
The experience
"The funny bit is, I didn't even know how to operate the D-9. I have never been an operator. But I begged them to give me a chance to learn.
Before we went into Shekhem (Nablus), I asked some of the guys to teach me. They sat with me for two hours. They taught me how to drive forwards and make a flat surface.
"I took it on with no problem and told them: 'That's it. Move aside and let me work.'.
This is what happened in Jenin as well. I have never demolished a house before, or even a wall. I got into the D-9 with a friend of mine, a Yemenite. I let him work for an hour, and then told him, 'OK. I got the idea.'
"But the real thing started the day 13 of our soldiers were killed up that alley in the Jenin refugee camp.
"When they brought us in, I knew that nobody wanted to work with me. They were afraid to be with me on the bulldozer. Not only did I have a reputation of a troublemaker, but also of a man who knows no fear, and they were right about that. I really have no fear. They knew I had no fear, that I don't give a damn, and that I can go anywhere, without asking questions, without an escort of tanks or APC's or anything. Once, in Jenin, I left the tank that escorted us everywhere. I wanted to have a spin around the camp, see what's going on. Gadi, the other operator who was with me, nearly fainted. He started going mad: 'Get back,' he shouted, 'we have no escort!', but I had to get to know the place better, to find an exit, just in case we needed one. I was not afraid to die. At least I was insured. This would have helped my family.
The Flag
"When we got into the camp, the D-9's were already waiting. They where hauled from Shekhem (Nablus). I got the big D-9 L, me and the Yemenite, my partner. First thing I did was to tie the Beitar team flag. I had it prepared in advance. I wanted the family to be able to identify me. I told the family and the kids: 'you will see my bulldozer on television. When you see the Beitar flag, that will be me'. And this is exactly what happened.
"I know it sounds crazy, but for me, to hang this flag was completely natural. Like eating. Here, look at this Beitar pendant around my neck. It never comes off. Not off me, and not off the kids. I carry the Beitar flags everywhere I go. Look at my car, all covered with these flags. This is the way I am. I always go to the Beitar matches, in a Beitar colored Galabia (an Arab man's dress), and a big drum of the Kurds from the C. Once, after our first national championship, I took a ride on the roof of a car, carrying the drum, all the way to Jerusalem.
"Beitar is a kink in my brain. There is no other way to explain it. After my family, it is the most important thing in my life, and the only thing that can kill me. In Jenin, I was not scared for a moment, but I cannot go to the Beitar matches for half a year now. The suspense kills me, and I am constantly afraid of getting a heart attack. Sometimes, I can walk around 'Teddy' (the main Jerusalem stadium) with a ticket in my hand, and I can't go in. In one match, in Beit Shean, I fainted after they scored a goal. I know how this sounds, but that's the way it is. Incurable. At home, they know better than to talk to me if Beitar lost a match.
"So now you understand why the Beitar flag was on the bulldozer in Jenin. Someone told me that my commander wanted to take it off. But no way. If I had a say in the matter, there would be a Beitar flag on the top of the mosque in the camp. I tried convincing the Golani (an infantry brigade of the Israeli army) officer I worked with to let me go up there and hang it, but he refused. He said I would be shot if I tried. Pity.
"The flag was the most outstanding object in the camp. Reservists who went home on short leave came back with Beitar flags, just to imitate me. It made a lot of noise, my flag. The Golani soldiers were stunned. 'You brought Beitar here,' they told me. And I said: 'I am going to make a Teddy stadium here. Don't you worry.'.
"On the radio, they wanted to call me 'Moshe-Bear', but I insisted on Kurdi. I told the Golanis, I am Kurdi, and I won't answer if you call me by any other name.' That is how 'Kurdi Bear' was born. This is my name, and I am stubborn.
"In the reserves, they already got used to my signature: 'Moshe Nissim Beitar Jerusalem'.For a while they asked me to stop it, but finally they just gave up.
Going in
"The moment I drove the bulldozer into the camp, something switched in my head. I went mad. All the desperation, caused by my personal condition, just vanished at once. All that remained was the anger over what had happened to our guys. Till now I am convinced, and so are the rest of us, that if we were let into the camp earlier, with all our might, twenty-four soldiers would not have been killed in this camp.
"The moment I went into the camp, for the first time, I just thought of how to help these soldiers. These fighters. Children the age of my son. I couldn't grasp how they worked there, were a charge blows up on you, with every step you take.
"With the first mission I was given, to open a track inside the camp, I understood what kind of hell this was.
"My first mission, voluntarily, was to bring the soldiers food. I was told: 'The only way to get food in there, is with the D-9'. They haven't eaten in two days. You couldn't poke your nose out. I filled the bulldozer till the roof, and drove the bulldozer right up to the door of their post, so that they would not have to take even one step outside their shelter. One step was enough in order to lose an arm or a leg.
"You could not tell where the charges were. They (the Palestinian fighters) dug holes in the ground and planted charges. You would just start driving, and you would hit a 3" pipe, welded on both ends. As you touch them, they go off. Everything was booby trapped. Even the walls of houses. Just touch them, and they blow up. Or, they would shoot you the moment you entered. There were charges in the roads, under the floor, between the walls. As you make an opening, something goes off. I saw a bird cage blow up in some pet shop, where we opened a track. A flying birdcage. I felt sorry for the birds. They just planted charges everywhere.
"For me, in the D-9, it was nothing. I didn't mind. You would just hear the explosions.
Even 80 Kilos of explosives only rattled the bulldozer's blade. It weighs three and a half tons(4). It's a monster. A tank can get hit in the belly. It's belly is sensitive. With the D-9, you should only look out for RPG's or 50 Kilos of explosives on the roof. But I didn't think about it then. The only thing that mattered was that these soldiers must not risk themselves just to eat or drink something."
"I fell in love with those children. I was willing to do with my bulldozer anything they would ask for. I begged for work: 'Let me finish another house, open another track.'
They, in return, protected me. I would leave the bulldozer without weapons, nothing. Just walked in. They told me I am mad, but I said: 'Leave me alone. Anyhow, the armored vest will not save me.' This is how I worked. Even without a shirt. Half naked.
"Do you know how I held out for 75 hours? I didn't get off the bulldozer. I had no problem of fatigue, because I drank whisky all the time. I had a bottle in the bulldozer at all times. I had put them in my bag in advance. Everybody else took clothes, but I knew what was waiting for me there, so I took whisky and something to munch on.
"Clothes? Didn't need any. A towel was enough. Anyhow I could not leave the bulldozer. You open the door, and get a bullet. For 75 hours I didn't think about my life at home, about all the problems. Everything was erased. Sometimes images of terror attacks in Jerusalem crossed my mind. I witnessed some of them."
The purity of our weapons
"What is 'opening a track'? You erase buildings. On both sides. There is no other choice, because the bulldozer was much wider than their alleys. But I am not looking for excuses or anything. You must 'shave' them. I didn't give a damn about demolishing their houses, because it saved the lives of our soldiers. I worked where our soldiers were slaughtered. They didn't tell all the truth about what happened. they drilled holes in the walls, holes for gun barrels. Anyone who escaped the charges, was shot through these holes.
"I had no mercy for anybody. I would erase anyone with the D-9, just so that our soldiers won't expose themselves to danger. That's what I told them. I was afraid for our soldiers. You could see them sleeping together, 40 soldiers in a house, all crowded. My heart went out for them. This is why I didn't give a damn about demolishing all the houses I've demolished - and I have demolished plenty. By the end, I built the 'Teddy' football stadium there.
"Difficult? No way. You must be kidding. I wanted to destroy everything. I begged the officers, over the radio, to let me knock it all down; from top to bottom. To level everything. It's not as if I wanted to kill. Just the houses. We didn't harm those who came out of the houses we had started to demolish, waving white flags. We screwed just those who wanted to fight.
"No one refused an order to knock down a house. No such thing. When I was told to bring down a house, I took the opportunity to bring down some more houses; not because I wanted to - but because when you are asked to demolish a house, some other houses usually obscure it, so there is no other way. I would have to do it even if I didn't want to. They just stood in the way. If I had to erase a house, come hell or high water - I would do it. And believe me, we demolished too little. The whole camp was littered with detonation charges. What actually saved the lives of the Palestinians themselves, because if they had returned to their homes, they would blow up.
"For three days, I just destroyed and destroyed. The whole area. Any house that they fired from came down. And to knock it down, I tore down some more. They were warned by loudspeaker to get out of the house before I come, but I gave no one a chance. I didn't wait. I didn't give one blow, and wait for them to come out. I would just ram the house with full power, to bring it down as fast as possible. I wanted to get to the other houses. To get as many as possible. Others may have restrained themselves, or so they say. Who are they kidding? Anyone who was there, and saw our soldiers in the houses, would understand they were in a death trap. I thought about saving them. I didn't give a damn about the Palestinians, but I didn't just ruin with no reason. It was all under orders.
"Many people where inside houses we stto demolish. They would come out of the houses we where working on. I didn't see, with my own eyes, people dying under the blade of the D-9. and I didn't see house falling down on live people. But if there were any, I wouldn't care at all. I am sure people died inside these houses, but it was difficult to see, there was lots of dust everywhere, and we worked a lot at night. I found joy with every house that came down, because I knew they didn't mind dying, but they cared for their homes. If you knocked down a house, you buried 40 or 50 people for generations. If I am sorry for anything, it is for not tearing the whole camp down.
Satisfaction
"I didn't stop for a moment. Even when we had a two-hour break, I insisted on going on. I prepared a ramp, to destroy a four-story building. Once I steered sharply to the right, and a whole wall came down. Suddenly I heard shouting on the radio: 'Kurdi, watch it! It is us!' Turns out there where our guys inside, and they forgot to tell me.
"I had plenty of satisfaction. I really enjoyed it. I remember pulling down a wall of a four-story building. It came crashing down on my D-9. My partner screamed at me to reverse, but I let the wall come down on us. We would go for the sides of the buildings, and then ram them. If the job was to hard, we would ask for a tank shell.
"I couldn't stop. I wanted to work and work. There was this Golani officer who gave us orders by radio - I drove him mad. I kept begging for more and more missions. On Sunday, after the fighting was over, we got orders to pull our D-9's out of the area, and stop working on our 'football stadium', because the army didn't want the cameras and press to see us working. I was really upset, because I had plans to knock down the big sign at the entrance of Jenin - three poles with a picture of Arafat. But on Sunday, they pulled us away before I had time to do it.
"I bitched them to give me more work. I would tell them, over the radio: 'Why are you letting me rest? I want more work!' All this time, I was really sick. I had fever. I got back from Jenin wiped out. Torn to bits. The next day, I went up again. One of the guys was ill, and I volunteered to help. I got back there. The battalion-commander was in shock when he saw me. The other operators all cracked up and needed rest, but I refused to leave. I wanted more.
"I had lots of satisfaction in Jenin, lots of satisfaction. It was like getting all the 18 years of doing nothing - into three days. The soldiers came up to me and said: 'Kurdi, thanks a lot. Thanks a lot'. And I hurt for the Thirteen(5). If we had moved into the building where they were ambushed, we would have buried all those Palestinians alive.
" I kept thinking of our soldiers. I didn't feel sorry for all those Palestinians who were left homeless. I just felt sorry for their children, who were not guilty. There was one wounded child, who was shot by Arabs. A Golani paramedic came down and changed his bandages, till he was evacuated. We took care of them, of the children. The soldiers gave them candy. But I had no mercy for the parents of these children.
I remembered the picture on television, of the mother who said she will bear children so that they will explode in Tel Aviv. I asked the Palestinian women I saw there: 'Aren't you ashamed?'
"After I finished the work, I got out of the bulldozer, piled up some clothes on the side of the road, and fell asleep. They looked after me, so that I won't get run over by a tank or something. All the fatigue of the past 75 hours just landed on me. There was a lot of excitement in what I did. The fact that I did a good job operating the bulldozer, the soldiers who came to me, after it was all over, and said: 'thank you'. This was enough for me. I miss them. I've invited all of them for Kubeh at my place. Their commander, Kobi, the one I worked with throughout the 75 hours, was amazed by the invitation.
'Do you want the entire company to come over to your house?'
I told him: 'As far as I am concerned, bring the whole battalion.'
I phoned my mother, from the D-9, and told her that the whole battalion was coming. She said: 'no sweat'. I am waiting for them".
Politics
"I know many people will think that my attitude stems from me being a 'Beitar' and 'Likud' member(6). It is true. I am heavily on the right. But this has nothing to do with what I have done in Jenin. I have many Arab friends. And I say, if a man has done nothing - don't touch him. A man who has done something - hang him, as far as I am concerned. Even a pregnant woman - shoot her without mercy, if she has a terrorist behind her. This is the way I thought in Jenin. I answered to no one. Didn't give a damn. The main thing was to help our soldiers. If I had been given three weeks, I would have had more fun. That is, If they would let me tear the whole camp down. I have no mercy.
"All the human rights organizations and the UN that messed with Jenin, and turned what we have done there into such an issue, are just bullshitting, lying. Lots of the walls in those houses just exploded by themselves, at our slightest touch. It is true, though, that during the last days we smashed the camp. And yes, it was justified. They mowed our soldiers down. They had a chance to surrender.
"No one expressed any reservations against doing it. Not only me. Who would dare speak? If anyone would as much as open his mouth, I would have buried him under the D-9. This is the reason I didn't mind seeing the hundred by hundred (7)we've flattened. As far as I am concerned, I left them with a football stadium, so they can play. This was our gift to the camp. Better than killing them. They will sit quietly. Jenin will not return to what it use to be."
Epilog
Two days after getting out of Jenin, 'Kurdi Bear' was admitted into hospital, suffering from pneumonia. As it turned out, the 75 straight hours in the D-9 took their toll. Some days after he had returned home, a phone call woke him up in the middle of the night.
"I got home one night, and for some reason, I couldn't sleep. I was uncomfortable.
Till 4 AM I just wandered about, suddenly the phone rings: 'Are you Nati's father?'
I sked what happened. 'Get over here, to the hospital.' 'Tell me the truth' I told her.
'I must know'. She said that: 'Things are not good. Come'. I speeded to Tel Hashomer hospital. A nurse and a social worker waited for me there. They wanted to tell me that my son had died. That he came in, dead already. Finished. Serious brain damage. They had planned to ask me to donate his organs.
"Suddenly she ran to the surgery, came back and said that they drained blood from his brain, and that she hopes he will survive. We will know within 72 hours. We hurried to get an amulet from Rabbi Caduri. It helped with the Beitar team, when we almost dropped to a lower league. On Friday, they called us back to the hospital. They were in shock: The kid just tore the respiration tubes off. He woke up."
20 year old Nati Nissim is lying on a bed, in the fifth floor of the Beit Levinstein hospital, draped from head to toe in the black-yellow uniform of the Beitar football team. "Daddy," he says suddenly "Don't forget. I need to get to the semi finals." Kurdi Bear, with a bristly chin and red eyes, freezes for a second, and tries to get his son back into reality. "Nati", he says softly, "I've already told you, Beitar has lost."
Nati laughs. "No way! I am going to the match!" he says and tries to get up. The father suppresses his frustration, gives up the struggle. The accident has caused the son to lose his short-term memory. Just like in the movie "Momento", he can recall, with astonishing precision, any Beitar goal going ten years back or even more, but forgets within minutes who he is talking with. "Why am I here?" he asks his parents again and again, and bows his head with embarrassment when an acquaintance reminds him of a conversation they had just the day before.
Kurdi sits in the ward and tries to look as optimistic as possible. The doctors are talking about a lengthy recovery process. They say that there is no telling if and when Nati's memory will return to normal. The financial situation is not brieither. He and his wife, Ronit, can hardly buy gas for his battered Subaru that tries to make the journey from the Castel neighborhood to the hospital. Kurdi wants to build himself a tent in front of the hospital. For the time being, he sleeps in the car.
"Jenin has strengthened me," he says. "It helped me forget my troubles. I had hoped it would be some turning point, until this hit me. But what happened to Nati taught me what really is important. I am living now for my son. The rest is really not important."
The friends from his reserves unit are helping him.
"He stood up when it really counted. He was there, in the most trying moment", says Haim Tamam, a soldier serving with him. "No one has functioned like he has. And I don't know if any of us could go through the nightmare he went through without putting a bullet through his head. We are all amazed by him."
Yeffet Damti, his bulldozer partner from Jenin, says that one thing is certain: "On the next mission, I am only going with Kurdi".
Kurdi, for his part, thanks his commanders that gave him the chance.
For the time being, they are wrapping him with attention and sympathy. They came here, to the hospital, just to be with him. Just so he won't be lonely. They are talking about raising funds to help him. When they meet him next to his son's bed, back come the memories from those 75 hours.
The chats around the son's bed continue till the management of the hospital called and begged them to stop bragging about destroying Jenin. There are Arab therapists who might be hurt, and one of the Arab patients has already complained.
---------------------------------
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=kurdi+gush+shalom
The act or instance of killing a large number of humans indiscriminately and cruelly.
2.The following interview with a medal of courage winner who has engaged in the battle of Jenin clearly describes a massacre.
This was published in Yediot Aharonot, Israel's most widely circulated tabloid paper, on May 31, 2002. It is the first absolutely sincere Israeli eye-witness testimony on what actually happened in Jenin, by one of those who did it and are proud of it.
Apart from the shocking revelations, this is also a startling human document.
After publication - and in spite of it - the unit to which the man belongs received from the army command an official citation for outstanding service.
"I made them a stadium in the middle of the camp"
I entered Jenin, driven by madness, by desperation, in the worst condition
possible.
I told my wife: "If anything happens to me, at least someone will take care of
you".
The funny bit was, I didn't even know how to operate the D-9.
Within two hours, they taught me to drive forwards, and make a flat surface.
I tied the 'Beitar' football team flag to the back of the bulldozer and told them: "Move away, let me work.".
For three days, I just erased and erased
I kept drinking whisky to fight off fatigue
I didn't see dead bodies under the blade of the D-9, but I don't care if there
where any.
By Tsadok Yeheskeli, Yediot Aharonot.
Moshe Nissim, nicknamed "Kurdi Bear(1)", the D-9 operator who became the terror of the Jenin refugee camp inhabitants, speaks with no censorship about his time of glory.
"I entered Jenin driven by madness, by desperation, I felt I have nothing to loose, That even if I 'get it', no big deal.
I told my wife: "If anything happens to me, at least someone will take care of you!".
I started my reserve service, in the worst conditions possible. Maybe this is why I didn't give a damn. Not about explosive charges, not about gun fire.
"My life was in deep shit for the past one and a half years. For almost half a year I am suspended from work as a senior inspector in the Jerusalem municipality.
I worked there for 17 years, till that cursed day, January the 20th, exactly my 40th birthday, when the police came and arrested me.
They said that I and my colleagues in the inspection unit are suspected for being bribed by contractors and other business owners, that in fact, we are a corrupted bunch.
"This is a terrible injustice. I am a very friendly guy, and in this job you mix with people you inspect. But bribery? Me?
I am in debt for hundreds of thousands of Shekels long before all this story. Had I taken bribes, I would have money, but I couldn't even pay the lawyer. Since then I am suspended. My wife was fired as well, and I have four children to keep.
"This was not the first blow. A few months earlier, I was injured badly in my back, my wife was fired, and my son got run over and had to be operated to save his leg.
Today he is OK, but his big dream, and mine, that he will once be a player in the Beitar Jerusalem team, this dream is probably gone forever. Pity. He was really talented. I have already promised him to get him into the children's Beitar team.
"For two years, it is just one blow after another. I haven't got a cent, but I love people. I cannot be indifferent. Every holiday, I distribute food packages for the needy. The same at Passover. I ran around like crazy. And just then, I started getting phone calls from the guys: "Kurdi", they said, "we are all being recruited to do reserve service, but you are not called."
"Truth is, that I understood my commanders. Hey, I've been doing my reserves duty for 16 years now, and I was useless. I did nothing but make trouble.
"During my obligatory Military service(2) I was constantly sentenced to prison, because I refused to be a vehicle electrician. In my unit as well, in the bulldozer unit, I was supposed to be an electrician, but actually, I did nothing, just messed around. I would come to the unit, and immediately open a card table, open a bottle. If any officer would dare send me to guard duty, I would send him first. Kurdi always did his thing.
If I felt like going to a Beitar football match, or going home, no one could stop me. I would just start the car and go.
"Truth is, they didn't even know me. When I am given responsibility, I can act differently, In the "Versailles" disaster(3) I was in charge of all the inspection team on location. When I was seen by one of the guys of my military unit, he was shocked.
He said: "In the army you can't tie your shoelaces, and here you are a big chief!"
The truth is that when I finally decide to do something, I am one stubborn guy. I will go for it till the end. This time was one of those moments. What haven't I done for them to take me? I sent the guys to twist the battalion commander's arm, I phoned the company commander, I drove them mad. "I promise to work", I pleaded with the battalion commander. Finally, he agreed to give me a chance.
"I said to myself: "Kurdi, you can't let them down. No more running wild!".
The speaker is Moshe Nissim, AKA "Moshe Nissim Beitar Jerusalem".
In the Jenin refugee camp, he was called, over the military radio: "Kurdi Bear".
Kurdi, because this is the name he insisted on. Bear, after the D-9 he was driving, demolishing house after house.
There was not one soldier in Jenin that did not hear this name. Kurdi Bear was considered the most devoted, brave and probably the most destructive operator.
A man, that the Jenin camp inquiry committee, would want very much to have a word with.
For 75 hours, with no break, he sat on the huge bulldozer, charges exploding around him, and erased house after house.
His story, which he tells openly and with no inhibitions, is far from being a regular war myth. Medals, so it seems, will not be awarded for it. (Actually, his company was later awarded a citation for outstanding service.)
The experience
"The funny bit is, I didn't even know how to operate the D-9. I have never been an operator. But I begged them to give me a chance to learn.
Before we went into Shekhem (Nablus), I asked some of the guys to teach me. They sat with me for two hours. They taught me how to drive forwards and make a flat surface.
"I took it on with no problem and told them: 'That's it. Move aside and let me work.'.
This is what happened in Jenin as well. I have never demolished a house before, or even a wall. I got into the D-9 with a friend of mine, a Yemenite. I let him work for an hour, and then told him, 'OK. I got the idea.'
"But the real thing started the day 13 of our soldiers were killed up that alley in the Jenin refugee camp.
"When they brought us in, I knew that nobody wanted to work with me. They were afraid to be with me on the bulldozer. Not only did I have a reputation of a troublemaker, but also of a man who knows no fear, and they were right about that. I really have no fear. They knew I had no fear, that I don't give a damn, and that I can go anywhere, without asking questions, without an escort of tanks or APC's or anything. Once, in Jenin, I left the tank that escorted us everywhere. I wanted to have a spin around the camp, see what's going on. Gadi, the other operator who was with me, nearly fainted. He started going mad: 'Get back,' he shouted, 'we have no escort!', but I had to get to know the place better, to find an exit, just in case we needed one. I was not afraid to die. At least I was insured. This would have helped my family.
The Flag
"When we got into the camp, the D-9's were already waiting. They where hauled from Shekhem (Nablus). I got the big D-9 L, me and the Yemenite, my partner. First thing I did was to tie the Beitar team flag. I had it prepared in advance. I wanted the family to be able to identify me. I told the family and the kids: 'you will see my bulldozer on television. When you see the Beitar flag, that will be me'. And this is exactly what happened.
"I know it sounds crazy, but for me, to hang this flag was completely natural. Like eating. Here, look at this Beitar pendant around my neck. It never comes off. Not off me, and not off the kids. I carry the Beitar flags everywhere I go. Look at my car, all covered with these flags. This is the way I am. I always go to the Beitar matches, in a Beitar colored Galabia (an Arab man's dress), and a big drum of the Kurds from the C. Once, after our first national championship, I took a ride on the roof of a car, carrying the drum, all the way to Jerusalem.
"Beitar is a kink in my brain. There is no other way to explain it. After my family, it is the most important thing in my life, and the only thing that can kill me. In Jenin, I was not scared for a moment, but I cannot go to the Beitar matches for half a year now. The suspense kills me, and I am constantly afraid of getting a heart attack. Sometimes, I can walk around 'Teddy' (the main Jerusalem stadium) with a ticket in my hand, and I can't go in. In one match, in Beit Shean, I fainted after they scored a goal. I know how this sounds, but that's the way it is. Incurable. At home, they know better than to talk to me if Beitar lost a match.
"So now you understand why the Beitar flag was on the bulldozer in Jenin. Someone told me that my commander wanted to take it off. But no way. If I had a say in the matter, there would be a Beitar flag on the top of the mosque in the camp. I tried convincing the Golani (an infantry brigade of the Israeli army) officer I worked with to let me go up there and hang it, but he refused. He said I would be shot if I tried. Pity.
"The flag was the most outstanding object in the camp. Reservists who went home on short leave came back with Beitar flags, just to imitate me. It made a lot of noise, my flag. The Golani soldiers were stunned. 'You brought Beitar here,' they told me. And I said: 'I am going to make a Teddy stadium here. Don't you worry.'.
"On the radio, they wanted to call me 'Moshe-Bear', but I insisted on Kurdi. I told the Golanis, I am Kurdi, and I won't answer if you call me by any other name.' That is how 'Kurdi Bear' was born. This is my name, and I am stubborn.
"In the reserves, they already got used to my signature: 'Moshe Nissim Beitar Jerusalem'.For a while they asked me to stop it, but finally they just gave up.
Going in
"The moment I drove the bulldozer into the camp, something switched in my head. I went mad. All the desperation, caused by my personal condition, just vanished at once. All that remained was the anger over what had happened to our guys. Till now I am convinced, and so are the rest of us, that if we were let into the camp earlier, with all our might, twenty-four soldiers would not have been killed in this camp.
"The moment I went into the camp, for the first time, I just thought of how to help these soldiers. These fighters. Children the age of my son. I couldn't grasp how they worked there, were a charge blows up on you, with every step you take.
"With the first mission I was given, to open a track inside the camp, I understood what kind of hell this was.
"My first mission, voluntarily, was to bring the soldiers food. I was told: 'The only way to get food in there, is with the D-9'. They haven't eaten in two days. You couldn't poke your nose out. I filled the bulldozer till the roof, and drove the bulldozer right up to the door of their post, so that they would not have to take even one step outside their shelter. One step was enough in order to lose an arm or a leg.
"You could not tell where the charges were. They (the Palestinian fighters) dug holes in the ground and planted charges. You would just start driving, and you would hit a 3" pipe, welded on both ends. As you touch them, they go off. Everything was booby trapped. Even the walls of houses. Just touch them, and they blow up. Or, they would shoot you the moment you entered. There were charges in the roads, under the floor, between the walls. As you make an opening, something goes off. I saw a bird cage blow up in some pet shop, where we opened a track. A flying birdcage. I felt sorry for the birds. They just planted charges everywhere.
"For me, in the D-9, it was nothing. I didn't mind. You would just hear the explosions.
Even 80 Kilos of explosives only rattled the bulldozer's blade. It weighs three and a half tons(4). It's a monster. A tank can get hit in the belly. It's belly is sensitive. With the D-9, you should only look out for RPG's or 50 Kilos of explosives on the roof. But I didn't think about it then. The only thing that mattered was that these soldiers must not risk themselves just to eat or drink something."
"I fell in love with those children. I was willing to do with my bulldozer anything they would ask for. I begged for work: 'Let me finish another house, open another track.'
They, in return, protected me. I would leave the bulldozer without weapons, nothing. Just walked in. They told me I am mad, but I said: 'Leave me alone. Anyhow, the armored vest will not save me.' This is how I worked. Even without a shirt. Half naked.
"Do you know how I held out for 75 hours? I didn't get off the bulldozer. I had no problem of fatigue, because I drank whisky all the time. I had a bottle in the bulldozer at all times. I had put them in my bag in advance. Everybody else took clothes, but I knew what was waiting for me there, so I took whisky and something to munch on.
"Clothes? Didn't need any. A towel was enough. Anyhow I could not leave the bulldozer. You open the door, and get a bullet. For 75 hours I didn't think about my life at home, about all the problems. Everything was erased. Sometimes images of terror attacks in Jerusalem crossed my mind. I witnessed some of them."
The purity of our weapons
"What is 'opening a track'? You erase buildings. On both sides. There is no other choice, because the bulldozer was much wider than their alleys. But I am not looking for excuses or anything. You must 'shave' them. I didn't give a damn about demolishing their houses, because it saved the lives of our soldiers. I worked where our soldiers were slaughtered. They didn't tell all the truth about what happened. they drilled holes in the walls, holes for gun barrels. Anyone who escaped the charges, was shot through these holes.
"I had no mercy for anybody. I would erase anyone with the D-9, just so that our soldiers won't expose themselves to danger. That's what I told them. I was afraid for our soldiers. You could see them sleeping together, 40 soldiers in a house, all crowded. My heart went out for them. This is why I didn't give a damn about demolishing all the houses I've demolished - and I have demolished plenty. By the end, I built the 'Teddy' football stadium there.
"Difficult? No way. You must be kidding. I wanted to destroy everything. I begged the officers, over the radio, to let me knock it all down; from top to bottom. To level everything. It's not as if I wanted to kill. Just the houses. We didn't harm those who came out of the houses we had started to demolish, waving white flags. We screwed just those who wanted to fight.
"No one refused an order to knock down a house. No such thing. When I was told to bring down a house, I took the opportunity to bring down some more houses; not because I wanted to - but because when you are asked to demolish a house, some other houses usually obscure it, so there is no other way. I would have to do it even if I didn't want to. They just stood in the way. If I had to erase a house, come hell or high water - I would do it. And believe me, we demolished too little. The whole camp was littered with detonation charges. What actually saved the lives of the Palestinians themselves, because if they had returned to their homes, they would blow up.
"For three days, I just destroyed and destroyed. The whole area. Any house that they fired from came down. And to knock it down, I tore down some more. They were warned by loudspeaker to get out of the house before I come, but I gave no one a chance. I didn't wait. I didn't give one blow, and wait for them to come out. I would just ram the house with full power, to bring it down as fast as possible. I wanted to get to the other houses. To get as many as possible. Others may have restrained themselves, or so they say. Who are they kidding? Anyone who was there, and saw our soldiers in the houses, would understand they were in a death trap. I thought about saving them. I didn't give a damn about the Palestinians, but I didn't just ruin with no reason. It was all under orders.
"Many people where inside houses we stto demolish. They would come out of the houses we where working on. I didn't see, with my own eyes, people dying under the blade of the D-9. and I didn't see house falling down on live people. But if there were any, I wouldn't care at all. I am sure people died inside these houses, but it was difficult to see, there was lots of dust everywhere, and we worked a lot at night. I found joy with every house that came down, because I knew they didn't mind dying, but they cared for their homes. If you knocked down a house, you buried 40 or 50 people for generations. If I am sorry for anything, it is for not tearing the whole camp down.
Satisfaction
"I didn't stop for a moment. Even when we had a two-hour break, I insisted on going on. I prepared a ramp, to destroy a four-story building. Once I steered sharply to the right, and a whole wall came down. Suddenly I heard shouting on the radio: 'Kurdi, watch it! It is us!' Turns out there where our guys inside, and they forgot to tell me.
"I had plenty of satisfaction. I really enjoyed it. I remember pulling down a wall of a four-story building. It came crashing down on my D-9. My partner screamed at me to reverse, but I let the wall come down on us. We would go for the sides of the buildings, and then ram them. If the job was to hard, we would ask for a tank shell.
"I couldn't stop. I wanted to work and work. There was this Golani officer who gave us orders by radio - I drove him mad. I kept begging for more and more missions. On Sunday, after the fighting was over, we got orders to pull our D-9's out of the area, and stop working on our 'football stadium', because the army didn't want the cameras and press to see us working. I was really upset, because I had plans to knock down the big sign at the entrance of Jenin - three poles with a picture of Arafat. But on Sunday, they pulled us away before I had time to do it.
"I bitched them to give me more work. I would tell them, over the radio: 'Why are you letting me rest? I want more work!' All this time, I was really sick. I had fever. I got back from Jenin wiped out. Torn to bits. The next day, I went up again. One of the guys was ill, and I volunteered to help. I got back there. The battalion-commander was in shock when he saw me. The other operators all cracked up and needed rest, but I refused to leave. I wanted more.
"I had lots of satisfaction in Jenin, lots of satisfaction. It was like getting all the 18 years of doing nothing - into three days. The soldiers came up to me and said: 'Kurdi, thanks a lot. Thanks a lot'. And I hurt for the Thirteen(5). If we had moved into the building where they were ambushed, we would have buried all those Palestinians alive.
" I kept thinking of our soldiers. I didn't feel sorry for all those Palestinians who were left homeless. I just felt sorry for their children, who were not guilty. There was one wounded child, who was shot by Arabs. A Golani paramedic came down and changed his bandages, till he was evacuated. We took care of them, of the children. The soldiers gave them candy. But I had no mercy for the parents of these children.
I remembered the picture on television, of the mother who said she will bear children so that they will explode in Tel Aviv. I asked the Palestinian women I saw there: 'Aren't you ashamed?'
"After I finished the work, I got out of the bulldozer, piled up some clothes on the side of the road, and fell asleep. They looked after me, so that I won't get run over by a tank or something. All the fatigue of the past 75 hours just landed on me. There was a lot of excitement in what I did. The fact that I did a good job operating the bulldozer, the soldiers who came to me, after it was all over, and said: 'thank you'. This was enough for me. I miss them. I've invited all of them for Kubeh at my place. Their commander, Kobi, the one I worked with throughout the 75 hours, was amazed by the invitation.
'Do you want the entire company to come over to your house?'
I told him: 'As far as I am concerned, bring the whole battalion.'
I phoned my mother, from the D-9, and told her that the whole battalion was coming. She said: 'no sweat'. I am waiting for them".
Politics
"I know many people will think that my attitude stems from me being a 'Beitar' and 'Likud' member(6). It is true. I am heavily on the right. But this has nothing to do with what I have done in Jenin. I have many Arab friends. And I say, if a man has done nothing - don't touch him. A man who has done something - hang him, as far as I am concerned. Even a pregnant woman - shoot her without mercy, if she has a terrorist behind her. This is the way I thought in Jenin. I answered to no one. Didn't give a damn. The main thing was to help our soldiers. If I had been given three weeks, I would have had more fun. That is, If they would let me tear the whole camp down. I have no mercy.
"All the human rights organizations and the UN that messed with Jenin, and turned what we have done there into such an issue, are just bullshitting, lying. Lots of the walls in those houses just exploded by themselves, at our slightest touch. It is true, though, that during the last days we smashed the camp. And yes, it was justified. They mowed our soldiers down. They had a chance to surrender.
"No one expressed any reservations against doing it. Not only me. Who would dare speak? If anyone would as much as open his mouth, I would have buried him under the D-9. This is the reason I didn't mind seeing the hundred by hundred (7)we've flattened. As far as I am concerned, I left them with a football stadium, so they can play. This was our gift to the camp. Better than killing them. They will sit quietly. Jenin will not return to what it use to be."
Epilog
Two days after getting out of Jenin, 'Kurdi Bear' was admitted into hospital, suffering from pneumonia. As it turned out, the 75 straight hours in the D-9 took their toll. Some days after he had returned home, a phone call woke him up in the middle of the night.
"I got home one night, and for some reason, I couldn't sleep. I was uncomfortable.
Till 4 AM I just wandered about, suddenly the phone rings: 'Are you Nati's father?'
I sked what happened. 'Get over here, to the hospital.' 'Tell me the truth' I told her.
'I must know'. She said that: 'Things are not good. Come'. I speeded to Tel Hashomer hospital. A nurse and a social worker waited for me there. They wanted to tell me that my son had died. That he came in, dead already. Finished. Serious brain damage. They had planned to ask me to donate his organs.
"Suddenly she ran to the surgery, came back and said that they drained blood from his brain, and that she hopes he will survive. We will know within 72 hours. We hurried to get an amulet from Rabbi Caduri. It helped with the Beitar team, when we almost dropped to a lower league. On Friday, they called us back to the hospital. They were in shock: The kid just tore the respiration tubes off. He woke up."
20 year old Nati Nissim is lying on a bed, in the fifth floor of the Beit Levinstein hospital, draped from head to toe in the black-yellow uniform of the Beitar football team. "Daddy," he says suddenly "Don't forget. I need to get to the semi finals." Kurdi Bear, with a bristly chin and red eyes, freezes for a second, and tries to get his son back into reality. "Nati", he says softly, "I've already told you, Beitar has lost."
Nati laughs. "No way! I am going to the match!" he says and tries to get up. The father suppresses his frustration, gives up the struggle. The accident has caused the son to lose his short-term memory. Just like in the movie "Momento", he can recall, with astonishing precision, any Beitar goal going ten years back or even more, but forgets within minutes who he is talking with. "Why am I here?" he asks his parents again and again, and bows his head with embarrassment when an acquaintance reminds him of a conversation they had just the day before.
Kurdi sits in the ward and tries to look as optimistic as possible. The doctors are talking about a lengthy recovery process. They say that there is no telling if and when Nati's memory will return to normal. The financial situation is not brieither. He and his wife, Ronit, can hardly buy gas for his battered Subaru that tries to make the journey from the Castel neighborhood to the hospital. Kurdi wants to build himself a tent in front of the hospital. For the time being, he sleeps in the car.
"Jenin has strengthened me," he says. "It helped me forget my troubles. I had hoped it would be some turning point, until this hit me. But what happened to Nati taught me what really is important. I am living now for my son. The rest is really not important."
The friends from his reserves unit are helping him.
"He stood up when it really counted. He was there, in the most trying moment", says Haim Tamam, a soldier serving with him. "No one has functioned like he has. And I don't know if any of us could go through the nightmare he went through without putting a bullet through his head. We are all amazed by him."
Yeffet Damti, his bulldozer partner from Jenin, says that one thing is certain: "On the next mission, I am only going with Kurdi".
Kurdi, for his part, thanks his commanders that gave him the chance.
For the time being, they are wrapping him with attention and sympathy. They came here, to the hospital, just to be with him. Just so he won't be lonely. They are talking about raising funds to help him. When they meet him next to his son's bed, back come the memories from those 75 hours.
The chats around the son's bed continue till the management of the hospital called and begged them to stop bragging about destroying Jenin. There are Arab therapists who might be hurt, and one of the Arab patients has already complained.
---------------------------------
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=kurdi+gush+shalom
It doesn't even have to be a large number of people. As I stated above, the Boston Massacre had a total of five dead as a result of British troops firing into a group of protesters).
So if that little adventure is a "massacre", I would like to know what Jenin was or wasn't.
It's just a bleeding word, after all, my friend. The bottom line is war crimes were committed, and ignored, and are now forgotten.
But not by those of us who believe in justice.
So if that little adventure is a "massacre", I would like to know what Jenin was or wasn't.
It's just a bleeding word, after all, my friend. The bottom line is war crimes were committed, and ignored, and are now forgotten.
But not by those of us who believe in justice.
"Have you ever read anything by Dr. Gwynne Dyer?"
Yes, lots. he is well syndicated. But not lately.
Yes, lots. he is well syndicated. But not lately.
Is Kurdi guilty of a Massacre?
Not even being nice to Scottie elicits a pleasant response. Tut, tut, tut. And here I was expecting a wee post in like fashion. Oh, dear, oh, dear.
Well, that's that, then. Be as "grouchy" as you so desire, but do I care? Not!! I am still happy!!!
Well, that's that, then. Be as "grouchy" as you so desire, but do I care? Not!! I am still happy!!!
angie, I notice this scottie character often post confusing and sometime misleading comments. I personally would bash whoever posts misleading info and comments.
Twenty-six years have passed since that clear day on June 8, 1967 when Israel attacked the USS Liberty with aircraft and torpedo boats, killing 34 young men and wounding 171. The attack in international waters followed over nine hours of close surveillance. Israeli pilots circled the ship at low level 13 times on eight different occasions before attacking. Radio operators in Spain, Lebanon, Germany and aboard the ship itself all heard the pilots reporting to their headquarters that this was an American ship. They attacked anyway. And when the ship failed to sink, the Israeli government concocted an elaborate story to cover the crime.
There is no question that this attack on a U.S. Navy ship was deliberate. This was a coordinated effort involving air, sea, headquarters and commando forces attacking over a long period. It was not the "few rounds of misdirected fire" that Israel would have the world believe. Worse, the Israeli excuse is a gross and detailed fabrication that disagrees entirely with the eyewitness recollections of survivors. Key American leaders call the attack deliberate. More important, eyewitness participants from the Israeli side have told survivors that they knew they were attacking an American ship.
Israeli Pilot Speaks Up
Fifteen years after the attack, an Israeli pilot approached Liberty survivors and then held extensive interviews with former Congressman Paul N. (Pete) McCloskey about his role. According to this senior Israeli lead pilot, he recognized the Liberty as American immediately, so informed his headquarters, and was told to ignore the American flag and continue his attack. He refused to do so and returned to base, where he was arrested.
Later, a dual-citizen Israeli major told survivors that he was in an Israeli war room where he heard that pilot's radio report. The attacking pilots and everyone in the Israeli war room knew that they were attacking an American ship, the major said. He recanted the statement only after he received threatening phone calls from Israel.
The pilot's protests also were heard by radio monitors in the U.S. Embassy in Lebanon. Then-U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon Dwight Porter has confirmed this. Porter told his story to syndicated columnists Rowland Evans and Robert Novak and offered to submit to further questioning by authorities. Unfortunately, no one in the U.S. government has any interest in hearing these first-person accounts of Israeli treachery.
Key members of the Lyndon Johnson administration have long agreed that this attack was no accident. Perhaps most outspoken is former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Admiral Thomas Moorer. "I can never accept the claim that this was a mistaken attack, " he insists.
Former Secretary of State Dean Rusk is equally outspoken, calling the attack deliberate in press and radio interviews. Similarly strong language comes from top leaders of the Central Intelligence Agency, National Security Agency (some of whose personnel were among the victims), National Security Council, and from presidential advisers such as Clark Clifford, Joseph Califano and Lucius Battle.
A top-secret analysis of Israel's excuse conducted by the Department of State found Israel's story to be untrue. Yet Israel and its defenders continue to stand by their claim that the attack was a "tragic accident" in which Israel mistook the most modern electronic surveillance vessel in the world for a rusted-out 40-year-old Egyptian horse transport.
Despite the evidence, no U.S. administration has ever found the courage to ever found the courage to defy the Israeli lobby by publicly demanding a proper accounting from Israel.
How Does Congress React to These Complaints?
Most members of Congress respond to inquiries about the Liberty with seemingly sympathetic promises to "investigate. " Weeks or months later they write again to report their "findings": "The Navy investigated in 1967 and found no evidence that the attack was deliberate," they say. "Israel apologized, calling the attack a tragic case of misidentification, and paid damages for loss of life, injuries and property damage. The matter is closed.
The fact is, however, that the Navy's "investigation" examined only the quality of the crew's training, the adequacy of communications and the performance of the crew under fire. The Navy was forbidden to examine Israeli culpability and Navy investigators refused to allow testimony showing that the attack was deliberate or that Israel's excuse was untrue.
The Navy blocked all testimony about Israeli actions.
Instead of determining whether the attack was deliberate, the Navy blocked all testimony about Israeli actions. No survivor was permitted to describe the close in machine-gun fire that continued for 40 minutes after Israel claims all firing stopped. No survivor was allowed to talk about the life rafts the Israeli torpedomen machine-gunned in the water. No survivor was permitted to challenge defects and fabrications in Israel's story. Even my eyewitness testimony as officer-of-the deck was withheld from the official record. No evidence of Israeli culpability was "found" because no such testimony was allowed. To survivors, this was not an investigation. It was a cover-up.
Congress Goes Through the Motions
Occasionally a member of Congress will seem to probe a bit deeper, as Ted Kennedy once did. In response to requests, Kennedy asked Liberty survivors and others for input,whichhis staff then "studied" for more than a year.
Kennedy asked no questions, conducted no interviews, and showed no curiosity about the many discrepancies in Israel's story. Then Kennedy reported his "findings" in a letter to survivors. Carefully avoiding the circumstances of the attack, Kennedy's letter deplored the "tragic circumstances and loss of life" and declared that the facts about the Liberty must be uncovered "to the maximum extent humanly possible. "
That letter, however, represented Kennedy's maximum effort. Appeals to Kennedy for some real help go unanswered.
The Guest Goes On
The best forum in the '90sfor this story and related stories of the Middle East may well be electronic mail, the complex of computer and electronic mail systems that now span the globe.
For instance, the USS Liberty and theMiddle East are hot topics in the "Prodigy interactive computer service" run by Sears and IBM. With over 2 million members, Prodigy's "Israel" forums guarantee some lively and often bitter debates.
Unfortunately, the playing field often seems uneven. The cover-up side heavily outnumbers its critics, and is allowed tactics rarely tolerated from others. Criticism of Israeli policies is seen as "attacks on the Jewish homeland. " Pro-Israel debaters charge that Israel's critics are "disciples of hate," and "pathological haters of Israel and all things Jewish. "
The language gets worse. Prodigy allows Israel's critics to be called "sodomists," and "derriere bussing antiSemites. " The Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, which prints an update on progress toward a congressional investigation every year on the June anniversary of the tragedy, comes in for special vitriol. The magazine is described almost daily as I a hate rag." Yet Prodigy's censors often reject even mild and factual rebuttals of such charges as "insulting. "
Despite a near media blackout, and such invective directed at publications that defy it, Americans, do continue to support the USS Liberty and its survivors' association. Late last year the Veterans of Foreign Wars Post 560 in Zimmerman, Minnesota, raised over $12,000 to create a rest stop and picnic area on donated land near a major highway as a memorial to the men who died on the Liberty. This makes the 29th public memorial to the USS Liberty.
The memorial area and an inscribed granite stone were appropriately dedicated in a ceremony attended by survivors, VFW members, Mayor Randy Hanson, and Liberty's heroic Congressional Medal of Honor-winning skipper, Captain William McGonagle, among others.
Inspired by community support, members of Post 560 are now telling the USS Liberty story to every VFW post in Minnesota. Member Stan Wuolle tells us that after they cover all of Minnesota, they will start on Wisconsin and the Dakotas.
In New York, meanwhile, Korean War veteran John Everts learned about the attack just last year and was similarly moved. Everts inspired two Korean vets groups in which he is active, "The Chosin Few" and "The Korean War Veterans" Kivlehan Chapter, to write more than 100 letters to Congress seeking the investigation that survivors mill are denied.
To date, no member of Congress has risked re-election chances by agreeing publicly to Evert's request. No one really expected that to happen. But efforts like these help members of Congress and the American public remember that Israel attacked the USS Liberty, deliberately and then lied about it. Sooner or later, Americans will insist that their government and their representatives in Congress find out why.
There is no question that this attack on a U.S. Navy ship was deliberate. This was a coordinated effort involving air, sea, headquarters and commando forces attacking over a long period. It was not the "few rounds of misdirected fire" that Israel would have the world believe. Worse, the Israeli excuse is a gross and detailed fabrication that disagrees entirely with the eyewitness recollections of survivors. Key American leaders call the attack deliberate. More important, eyewitness participants from the Israeli side have told survivors that they knew they were attacking an American ship.
Israeli Pilot Speaks Up
Fifteen years after the attack, an Israeli pilot approached Liberty survivors and then held extensive interviews with former Congressman Paul N. (Pete) McCloskey about his role. According to this senior Israeli lead pilot, he recognized the Liberty as American immediately, so informed his headquarters, and was told to ignore the American flag and continue his attack. He refused to do so and returned to base, where he was arrested.
Later, a dual-citizen Israeli major told survivors that he was in an Israeli war room where he heard that pilot's radio report. The attacking pilots and everyone in the Israeli war room knew that they were attacking an American ship, the major said. He recanted the statement only after he received threatening phone calls from Israel.
The pilot's protests also were heard by radio monitors in the U.S. Embassy in Lebanon. Then-U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon Dwight Porter has confirmed this. Porter told his story to syndicated columnists Rowland Evans and Robert Novak and offered to submit to further questioning by authorities. Unfortunately, no one in the U.S. government has any interest in hearing these first-person accounts of Israeli treachery.
Key members of the Lyndon Johnson administration have long agreed that this attack was no accident. Perhaps most outspoken is former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Admiral Thomas Moorer. "I can never accept the claim that this was a mistaken attack, " he insists.
Former Secretary of State Dean Rusk is equally outspoken, calling the attack deliberate in press and radio interviews. Similarly strong language comes from top leaders of the Central Intelligence Agency, National Security Agency (some of whose personnel were among the victims), National Security Council, and from presidential advisers such as Clark Clifford, Joseph Califano and Lucius Battle.
A top-secret analysis of Israel's excuse conducted by the Department of State found Israel's story to be untrue. Yet Israel and its defenders continue to stand by their claim that the attack was a "tragic accident" in which Israel mistook the most modern electronic surveillance vessel in the world for a rusted-out 40-year-old Egyptian horse transport.
Despite the evidence, no U.S. administration has ever found the courage to ever found the courage to defy the Israeli lobby by publicly demanding a proper accounting from Israel.
How Does Congress React to These Complaints?
Most members of Congress respond to inquiries about the Liberty with seemingly sympathetic promises to "investigate. " Weeks or months later they write again to report their "findings": "The Navy investigated in 1967 and found no evidence that the attack was deliberate," they say. "Israel apologized, calling the attack a tragic case of misidentification, and paid damages for loss of life, injuries and property damage. The matter is closed.
The fact is, however, that the Navy's "investigation" examined only the quality of the crew's training, the adequacy of communications and the performance of the crew under fire. The Navy was forbidden to examine Israeli culpability and Navy investigators refused to allow testimony showing that the attack was deliberate or that Israel's excuse was untrue.
The Navy blocked all testimony about Israeli actions.
Instead of determining whether the attack was deliberate, the Navy blocked all testimony about Israeli actions. No survivor was permitted to describe the close in machine-gun fire that continued for 40 minutes after Israel claims all firing stopped. No survivor was allowed to talk about the life rafts the Israeli torpedomen machine-gunned in the water. No survivor was permitted to challenge defects and fabrications in Israel's story. Even my eyewitness testimony as officer-of-the deck was withheld from the official record. No evidence of Israeli culpability was "found" because no such testimony was allowed. To survivors, this was not an investigation. It was a cover-up.
Congress Goes Through the Motions
Occasionally a member of Congress will seem to probe a bit deeper, as Ted Kennedy once did. In response to requests, Kennedy asked Liberty survivors and others for input,whichhis staff then "studied" for more than a year.
Kennedy asked no questions, conducted no interviews, and showed no curiosity about the many discrepancies in Israel's story. Then Kennedy reported his "findings" in a letter to survivors. Carefully avoiding the circumstances of the attack, Kennedy's letter deplored the "tragic circumstances and loss of life" and declared that the facts about the Liberty must be uncovered "to the maximum extent humanly possible. "
That letter, however, represented Kennedy's maximum effort. Appeals to Kennedy for some real help go unanswered.
The Guest Goes On
The best forum in the '90sfor this story and related stories of the Middle East may well be electronic mail, the complex of computer and electronic mail systems that now span the globe.
For instance, the USS Liberty and theMiddle East are hot topics in the "Prodigy interactive computer service" run by Sears and IBM. With over 2 million members, Prodigy's "Israel" forums guarantee some lively and often bitter debates.
Unfortunately, the playing field often seems uneven. The cover-up side heavily outnumbers its critics, and is allowed tactics rarely tolerated from others. Criticism of Israeli policies is seen as "attacks on the Jewish homeland. " Pro-Israel debaters charge that Israel's critics are "disciples of hate," and "pathological haters of Israel and all things Jewish. "
The language gets worse. Prodigy allows Israel's critics to be called "sodomists," and "derriere bussing antiSemites. " The Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, which prints an update on progress toward a congressional investigation every year on the June anniversary of the tragedy, comes in for special vitriol. The magazine is described almost daily as I a hate rag." Yet Prodigy's censors often reject even mild and factual rebuttals of such charges as "insulting. "
Despite a near media blackout, and such invective directed at publications that defy it, Americans, do continue to support the USS Liberty and its survivors' association. Late last year the Veterans of Foreign Wars Post 560 in Zimmerman, Minnesota, raised over $12,000 to create a rest stop and picnic area on donated land near a major highway as a memorial to the men who died on the Liberty. This makes the 29th public memorial to the USS Liberty.
The memorial area and an inscribed granite stone were appropriately dedicated in a ceremony attended by survivors, VFW members, Mayor Randy Hanson, and Liberty's heroic Congressional Medal of Honor-winning skipper, Captain William McGonagle, among others.
Inspired by community support, members of Post 560 are now telling the USS Liberty story to every VFW post in Minnesota. Member Stan Wuolle tells us that after they cover all of Minnesota, they will start on Wisconsin and the Dakotas.
In New York, meanwhile, Korean War veteran John Everts learned about the attack just last year and was similarly moved. Everts inspired two Korean vets groups in which he is active, "The Chosin Few" and "The Korean War Veterans" Kivlehan Chapter, to write more than 100 letters to Congress seeking the investigation that survivors mill are denied.
To date, no member of Congress has risked re-election chances by agreeing publicly to Evert's request. No one really expected that to happen. But efforts like these help members of Congress and the American public remember that Israel attacked the USS Liberty, deliberately and then lied about it. Sooner or later, Americans will insist that their government and their representatives in Congress find out why.
Today I'm going to look briefly at the HRW (Human Rights Watch) Report, as well as comments from Amnesty International.
To say that any of the human rights organizations emerged from Jenin with their reputations completely intact would be misleading, and in an effort to show you the vast disparity, let's glance at the treatment of the Jenin massacre and that of the ethnic Albanians at the hands of the Serbs.
In the case of the Albanians human rights organizations meticiously recorded every witness statement and demanded military intervention.
Compare that with the realities of Jenin and the contrast is chillingly stark.
In the case of Jenin, everyone was willing and eager to dismiss "a massacre", this before an investigation of any kind was carried out. Also of significance was the manner in which Palestinian survivors, citing hundreds of deaths in the Camp, was dismissed, this even after claims by the IDF that "hundreds" had been killed and Shimon Peres, himself, citing it as "a massacre".
Not long afterwards, of course, those figures were greatly reduced by the IDF to the point where we were almost led to believe that no one was killed in Jenin despite bodies to the contrary.
Amnesty International, on the 16th of April, 2002, at which time its delegates were carrying out an investigation in Jenin, called for the UN Security Council to "immediately deploy an independent investigation into Jenin", demanding that the said investigation be comprised of impartial members with integrity, and, importantly, individuals with known expertise in the fields of forsenics, ballistics, human rights, and humanitarian law, as well as expertise in the protection and support of victims rights and witnesses including women and children. It also called for this investigation team to be conducted by an international group of people.
It stressed that this report carried out expeditiously and its findings provided to the general public as soon as possible.
AI stated it "found credible evidence of grave breaches of international humanitarian law and violations of human rights during the IDF incursion into the Camp between 3 and 17 April".
It also cited Israel's refusal to allow civilians to leave the area; preventing medical personel from entering the Camp to administer to the injured and dying, leaving the dead and wounded in homes and the streets, and deliberatly destroying homes after Palestinine armed forces had surrendered and ceased resistance.
We will tomorrow deal with the UN and its resolution re this request by Amnesty International.
Meanwhile, as the horrifying sight that was once Jenin was flashed around the world, the anger and disgust against Israel grew daily. Newspapers on the international scene were screaming "massacre", whilst in the US a tone more favourable to Israel was adopted.
Following the report of the Human Rights Watch, an organization based out of New York, which stated there was "no massacre", immediately everything else in the report was ignored or minimized.
For instance, there were several "points of concern" indicated by HRW, and these are as follows:
a) significant number of casulties who were killed in circumstances directly related to the forceful methods used by the Israeli army during its offensive;
b) the massive destruction of civilian homes and the sometimes indiscriminate use of helicopter fire in the Camp;
c) the use of Palestinian civilians by the Israeli army to carry out some of its more dangerous tasks in the Camp; and,
d) the blanket denial of medical and humanitarian access to the Camp during and after the military operation.
The political distortions, however, notwithstanding (such as they found "no evidence" of a 'massacre" and "no evidence" that bodies were removed by the IDF, and how the "no masacre" became a major part of the Israeli propaganda campaign; and the HRW assertion that there were approximately 80 armed forces in the camp and that booby traps had been set out as if pending an invasion by a brutal force a Camp could not defend itself) the overall report was certainly a damning indictment against Israel.
It accused Israel of allowing its forces to commit "serious violations of international humanitariam law, some "amounting prima facie to war crimes".
"It also rejected Israel's assertion that the apparent presence of some 80 or more armed Palestinians in a camp of over 14,000 people gave it the right to abrogate international humanitarian law"
The report also noted reprisals against civilians, the use of armoured bulldozers "far beyond any conceivable purpose of gaining access to fighterrs and was vastly disproportionate to the military objections pursed".
It also described the blatant destruction of water, sewerage, and electrical infrastructure of the Camp
as "a level of destruction deliberately comprehensive".
It found evidence of summary executions, which is a clear war crime; of injured being denied urgent medical care, and health workers coming under attack and having to strip to their underwear. It found evidence of the use of human shields, which is outlawed by the FGC and declared that it was a "widespread practice" in Jenin.
There are many other breaches of international law and the Fourth Geneva Convention in this report, and it also mentions the complicity of the US with respect to the "tour" of Colin Powell to the Middle East which saw him roaming about the area for a week before finally getting to Israel. The Report sees this as a clear indication of the US wanting Sharon to have extra time to step up his offensive in Jenin.
The report put the total number of dead at 52. This is, l
let's streess here, the number of dead actually identified. However, it does not take into account all the variables. such as those buried in their homes under the rubble, or those whose bodies may have been removed before the Israeli Supreme Court ordered the IDF not to remove any bodies. Had it been remvoing bodies before this?
Tomorrow we shall take a look at the UN role in this, and the behind the scenes maneuvering that led to the fact-finiding mission being disbanded, and a watered down report by Kafi Annan that was delivered on August 1st., 2002.
In the meantime, I should note with astonishment that quite a few of the sites re Jenin that I attempted to check today could not be accessed.
see: http://www.hrw.org for further info re the HRW Report
To say that any of the human rights organizations emerged from Jenin with their reputations completely intact would be misleading, and in an effort to show you the vast disparity, let's glance at the treatment of the Jenin massacre and that of the ethnic Albanians at the hands of the Serbs.
In the case of the Albanians human rights organizations meticiously recorded every witness statement and demanded military intervention.
Compare that with the realities of Jenin and the contrast is chillingly stark.
In the case of Jenin, everyone was willing and eager to dismiss "a massacre", this before an investigation of any kind was carried out. Also of significance was the manner in which Palestinian survivors, citing hundreds of deaths in the Camp, was dismissed, this even after claims by the IDF that "hundreds" had been killed and Shimon Peres, himself, citing it as "a massacre".
Not long afterwards, of course, those figures were greatly reduced by the IDF to the point where we were almost led to believe that no one was killed in Jenin despite bodies to the contrary.
Amnesty International, on the 16th of April, 2002, at which time its delegates were carrying out an investigation in Jenin, called for the UN Security Council to "immediately deploy an independent investigation into Jenin", demanding that the said investigation be comprised of impartial members with integrity, and, importantly, individuals with known expertise in the fields of forsenics, ballistics, human rights, and humanitarian law, as well as expertise in the protection and support of victims rights and witnesses including women and children. It also called for this investigation team to be conducted by an international group of people.
It stressed that this report carried out expeditiously and its findings provided to the general public as soon as possible.
AI stated it "found credible evidence of grave breaches of international humanitarian law and violations of human rights during the IDF incursion into the Camp between 3 and 17 April".
It also cited Israel's refusal to allow civilians to leave the area; preventing medical personel from entering the Camp to administer to the injured and dying, leaving the dead and wounded in homes and the streets, and deliberatly destroying homes after Palestinine armed forces had surrendered and ceased resistance.
We will tomorrow deal with the UN and its resolution re this request by Amnesty International.
Meanwhile, as the horrifying sight that was once Jenin was flashed around the world, the anger and disgust against Israel grew daily. Newspapers on the international scene were screaming "massacre", whilst in the US a tone more favourable to Israel was adopted.
Following the report of the Human Rights Watch, an organization based out of New York, which stated there was "no massacre", immediately everything else in the report was ignored or minimized.
For instance, there were several "points of concern" indicated by HRW, and these are as follows:
a) significant number of casulties who were killed in circumstances directly related to the forceful methods used by the Israeli army during its offensive;
b) the massive destruction of civilian homes and the sometimes indiscriminate use of helicopter fire in the Camp;
c) the use of Palestinian civilians by the Israeli army to carry out some of its more dangerous tasks in the Camp; and,
d) the blanket denial of medical and humanitarian access to the Camp during and after the military operation.
The political distortions, however, notwithstanding (such as they found "no evidence" of a 'massacre" and "no evidence" that bodies were removed by the IDF, and how the "no masacre" became a major part of the Israeli propaganda campaign; and the HRW assertion that there were approximately 80 armed forces in the camp and that booby traps had been set out as if pending an invasion by a brutal force a Camp could not defend itself) the overall report was certainly a damning indictment against Israel.
It accused Israel of allowing its forces to commit "serious violations of international humanitariam law, some "amounting prima facie to war crimes".
"It also rejected Israel's assertion that the apparent presence of some 80 or more armed Palestinians in a camp of over 14,000 people gave it the right to abrogate international humanitarian law"
The report also noted reprisals against civilians, the use of armoured bulldozers "far beyond any conceivable purpose of gaining access to fighterrs and was vastly disproportionate to the military objections pursed".
It also described the blatant destruction of water, sewerage, and electrical infrastructure of the Camp
as "a level of destruction deliberately comprehensive".
It found evidence of summary executions, which is a clear war crime; of injured being denied urgent medical care, and health workers coming under attack and having to strip to their underwear. It found evidence of the use of human shields, which is outlawed by the FGC and declared that it was a "widespread practice" in Jenin.
There are many other breaches of international law and the Fourth Geneva Convention in this report, and it also mentions the complicity of the US with respect to the "tour" of Colin Powell to the Middle East which saw him roaming about the area for a week before finally getting to Israel. The Report sees this as a clear indication of the US wanting Sharon to have extra time to step up his offensive in Jenin.
The report put the total number of dead at 52. This is, l
let's streess here, the number of dead actually identified. However, it does not take into account all the variables. such as those buried in their homes under the rubble, or those whose bodies may have been removed before the Israeli Supreme Court ordered the IDF not to remove any bodies. Had it been remvoing bodies before this?
Tomorrow we shall take a look at the UN role in this, and the behind the scenes maneuvering that led to the fact-finiding mission being disbanded, and a watered down report by Kafi Annan that was delivered on August 1st., 2002.
In the meantime, I should note with astonishment that quite a few of the sites re Jenin that I attempted to check today could not be accessed.
see: http://www.hrw.org for further info re the HRW Report
Note this entry by "!":
Hundreds of victims 'were buried by bulldozer in mass grave'
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/04/13/wmid213.xml
Yes, that was the title (much to the Telegraph's later embarrassment. But these were the false CLAIMS of alleged "eyewitnesses". When the dust settled, there were not hundreds of victims. Only about 50 bodies were found, most of them armed terrorists, and no one is still missing.
Ironically, "!" later claims:
!> Apparantly some people are satisfied with only scanning the headlines.
But then, you only provided the headline -- and seemingly as proof that there was a massacre.
Angie gives us this gem:
> In the case of Jenin, everyone was willing and eager to dismiss "a massacre", this before an investigation of any kind was carried out.
Wasn't it the UN who first condemned Israel for a massacre and then assembled a team to investigate? (Only to eventually conclude that there was no massacre? That the "eyewitness" reports of 500-3000 dead were false?)
Angie's twisting continues:
> those figures were greatly reduced by the IDF to the point where we were almost led to believe that no one was killed in Jenin despite bodies to the contrary.
Except that only 52 bodies were found and no one is missing. (The IDF estimate of 50-100 dead proved accurate. That one report once put the number at 200 is of no great significance.) What "bodies to the contrary" are you speaking of?
In fact, you state exactly the opposite:
> The report put the total number of dead at 52.... However, it does not take into account all the variables. such as those buried in their homes under the rubble, or those whose bodies may have been removed....
That's because no bodies were removed and (contrary to your propaganda) very few bodies were found burried in the rubble! And those were included in the body count. Again:
*** NO ONE IS LISTED AS MISSING! ***
The residents of Jenin have all been accounted for. Who were these absent dead bodies? Space Aliens?
Hundreds of victims 'were buried by bulldozer in mass grave'
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/04/13/wmid213.xml
Yes, that was the title (much to the Telegraph's later embarrassment. But these were the false CLAIMS of alleged "eyewitnesses". When the dust settled, there were not hundreds of victims. Only about 50 bodies were found, most of them armed terrorists, and no one is still missing.
Ironically, "!" later claims:
!> Apparantly some people are satisfied with only scanning the headlines.
But then, you only provided the headline -- and seemingly as proof that there was a massacre.
Angie gives us this gem:
> In the case of Jenin, everyone was willing and eager to dismiss "a massacre", this before an investigation of any kind was carried out.
Wasn't it the UN who first condemned Israel for a massacre and then assembled a team to investigate? (Only to eventually conclude that there was no massacre? That the "eyewitness" reports of 500-3000 dead were false?)
Angie's twisting continues:
> those figures were greatly reduced by the IDF to the point where we were almost led to believe that no one was killed in Jenin despite bodies to the contrary.
Except that only 52 bodies were found and no one is missing. (The IDF estimate of 50-100 dead proved accurate. That one report once put the number at 200 is of no great significance.) What "bodies to the contrary" are you speaking of?
In fact, you state exactly the opposite:
> The report put the total number of dead at 52.... However, it does not take into account all the variables. such as those buried in their homes under the rubble, or those whose bodies may have been removed....
That's because no bodies were removed and (contrary to your propaganda) very few bodies were found burried in the rubble! And those were included in the body count. Again:
*** NO ONE IS LISTED AS MISSING! ***
The residents of Jenin have all been accounted for. Who were these absent dead bodies? Space Aliens?
Apparently you are too weak to 'click' on a link and actually read a story.
One question: Has there been any real full retractions of any articles published by the Press regarding their Jenin reporting?
If so - please list - I will gladly each and every one.
One question: Has there been any real full retractions of any articles published by the Press regarding their Jenin reporting?
If so - please list - I will gladly each and every one.
Newspapers have published more informed articles which contradict the earlier ALLEGATIONS WHICH PROVED TO BE FALSE.
Why is it that you (and Angie, et al) prefer to revel in old, discredited news rather than face the facts that even PA officials now admit?
Why is it that you (and Angie, et al) prefer to revel in old, discredited news rather than face the facts that even PA officials now admit?
It is obvious from reading your latest posting - that you still haven't read the article that you slam.
If you would bother to read the story that you dismiss from it's headline alone, your plausibility just might improve...
However in your continuing to spout the same old shit, your laziness is not only obvious, but speaks volumes of your integrity.
If you would bother to read the story that you dismiss from it's headline alone, your plausibility just might improve...
However in your continuing to spout the same old shit, your laziness is not only obvious, but speaks volumes of your integrity.
!: "It is obvious from reading your latest posting - that you still haven't read the article that you slam."
The unverifiable allegations of a half-named man who's a far from disinterested party is worth exactly what, on its own? Other than as a straw to grasp at, in the immediate aftermath of the invasion of Jenin, when it started becoming clear that the Palestinian estimates of hundreds and hundreds of deaths weren't being matched at all by the number of verified, actual dead?
Or was there some other point you were trying to make, other than empty bombast about KL's integrity?
@%<
The unverifiable allegations of a half-named man who's a far from disinterested party is worth exactly what, on its own? Other than as a straw to grasp at, in the immediate aftermath of the invasion of Jenin, when it started becoming clear that the Palestinian estimates of hundreds and hundreds of deaths weren't being matched at all by the number of verified, actual dead?
Or was there some other point you were trying to make, other than empty bombast about KL's integrity?
@%<
The point made on KL's integrity stands as long as KL makes statements based on the headline of an un-read article.
o.k.... you read the article, but missed the last line!
care to comment on the, in many areas - ongoing travel and access restrictions?
o.k.... you read the article, but missed the last line!
care to comment on the, in many areas - ongoing travel and access restrictions?
As my comments illustrated, I read the article, not just the headline:
KL> that was the title (much to the Telegraph's later embarrassment). But these were the false CLAIMS of alleged "eyewitnesses".
My point was that most people wouldn't follow the link, and that you presented this headline as if in support of Angie's allegations:
KL> you only provided the headline -- and seemingly as proof that there was a massacre.
Thus I concluded that you provided the headline with the intent to mislead the bulk of the sheeple who you knew wouldn't follow the link.
Thus we see why "!" is attempting to change the subject from the basic fact (agreed by virtually everyone but some spooks on IMC) that THERE WAS NO MASSACRE IN JENIN, and from his own integrity to mine.
I think !'s own comments speak more about his integrity than I could ever say and will leave it at that. I don't need to cheerlead myself as ! does.
So let's now return to the topic:
Angie gives us this gem:
> In the case of Jenin, everyone was willing and eager to dismiss "a massacre", this before an investigation of any kind was carried out.
Wasn't it the UN who first condemned Israel for a massacre and then assembled a team to investigate? (Only to eventually conclude that there was no massacre? That the "eyewitness" reports of 500-3000 dead were false?)
Angie's twisting continues:
> those figures were greatly reduced by the IDF to the point where we were almost led to believe that no one was killed in Jenin despite bodies to the contrary.
Except that only 52 bodies were found and no one is missing. (The IDF estimate of 50-100 dead proved accurate. That one report once put the number at 200 is of no great significance.) What "bodies to the contrary" are you speaking of?
In fact, Angie states exactly the opposite later in the same post. Note how first she claims that the bodies are there, then she explains why the bodies are NOT there:
> The report put the total number of dead at 52.... However, it does not take into account all the variables. such as those buried in their homes under the rubble, or those whose bodies may have been removed....
That's because no bodies were removed and (contrary to your propaganda) very few bodies were found burried in the rubble! And those were included in the body count. Again:
*** NO ONE IS LISTED AS MISSING! ***
The residents of Jenin have all been accounted for. Who were these absent dead bodies? Space Aliens?
KL> that was the title (much to the Telegraph's later embarrassment). But these were the false CLAIMS of alleged "eyewitnesses".
My point was that most people wouldn't follow the link, and that you presented this headline as if in support of Angie's allegations:
KL> you only provided the headline -- and seemingly as proof that there was a massacre.
Thus I concluded that you provided the headline with the intent to mislead the bulk of the sheeple who you knew wouldn't follow the link.
Thus we see why "!" is attempting to change the subject from the basic fact (agreed by virtually everyone but some spooks on IMC) that THERE WAS NO MASSACRE IN JENIN, and from his own integrity to mine.
I think !'s own comments speak more about his integrity than I could ever say and will leave it at that. I don't need to cheerlead myself as ! does.
So let's now return to the topic:
Angie gives us this gem:
> In the case of Jenin, everyone was willing and eager to dismiss "a massacre", this before an investigation of any kind was carried out.
Wasn't it the UN who first condemned Israel for a massacre and then assembled a team to investigate? (Only to eventually conclude that there was no massacre? That the "eyewitness" reports of 500-3000 dead were false?)
Angie's twisting continues:
> those figures were greatly reduced by the IDF to the point where we were almost led to believe that no one was killed in Jenin despite bodies to the contrary.
Except that only 52 bodies were found and no one is missing. (The IDF estimate of 50-100 dead proved accurate. That one report once put the number at 200 is of no great significance.) What "bodies to the contrary" are you speaking of?
In fact, Angie states exactly the opposite later in the same post. Note how first she claims that the bodies are there, then she explains why the bodies are NOT there:
> The report put the total number of dead at 52.... However, it does not take into account all the variables. such as those buried in their homes under the rubble, or those whose bodies may have been removed....
That's because no bodies were removed and (contrary to your propaganda) very few bodies were found burried in the rubble! And those were included in the body count. Again:
*** NO ONE IS LISTED AS MISSING! ***
The residents of Jenin have all been accounted for. Who were these absent dead bodies? Space Aliens?
The next stage of my "Jenin Not Going Quietly Into the Night Now or Ever (cont'd)" has been delayed momentarily.
A nasty thunder and lightening storm knocked out all power to our area overnight, thus delaying the latest installation amongst other thinigs! Sigh!
A nasty thunder and lightening storm knocked out all power to our area overnight, thus delaying the latest installation amongst other thinigs! Sigh!
Perhaps before entering more stories you should address the challenges posed about the falsehoods you've already entered.
ARE ANY RESIDENTS OF JENIN MISSING?
If not, how do you reconcile your claim that bodies were not recovered and that the death toll was higher than 52? (Note: the majority of the Arab casualties were armed combatants. Many of the innocent civilians were NOT killed by the IDF but by the 1000-2000 bombs that the Arab terrorists planted across this residential area.)
Angie, do you agree with the bomb maker interviewed by Jonathan Cook (Al Ahram) that the residents who cooperated with the IDF and showed them where to find some of these bombs in their homes are "collaborators"?
If no one is missing, then contrary to your allegations there weren't more bodies burried in the rubble (never to be discovered) and allegations that bodies were carted away or burried in mass graves are proven false.
As false as the propaganda lie by "eyewitnesses" that 500-3000 people were methodically executed.
Angie, you do concede that was a false report, right?
Now we'll see if Angie is a propaganda machine or if she'll actually engage in discussion about her own posts.
ARE ANY RESIDENTS OF JENIN MISSING?
If not, how do you reconcile your claim that bodies were not recovered and that the death toll was higher than 52? (Note: the majority of the Arab casualties were armed combatants. Many of the innocent civilians were NOT killed by the IDF but by the 1000-2000 bombs that the Arab terrorists planted across this residential area.)
Angie, do you agree with the bomb maker interviewed by Jonathan Cook (Al Ahram) that the residents who cooperated with the IDF and showed them where to find some of these bombs in their homes are "collaborators"?
If no one is missing, then contrary to your allegations there weren't more bodies burried in the rubble (never to be discovered) and allegations that bodies were carted away or burried in mass graves are proven false.
As false as the propaganda lie by "eyewitnesses" that 500-3000 people were methodically executed.
Angie, you do concede that was a false report, right?
Now we'll see if Angie is a propaganda machine or if she'll actually engage in discussion about her own posts.
It is not up to the Palestinians to prove the massacre happened, it is up to Israelis to prove the massacre did not happen.
There is first hand testimony from Jenin residents who were filmed for the movie Jenin Jenin, and surprise surprise the movie is banned from screening in Israel and the producer of the documentary was shot dead last year.
First hand testimony by soldiers who participated in the "event" suggest war crimes and other crimes.
The name Kurdi comes to mind when you think of the massacre.
He earned a medal of excellence after he described his pilgrimage to the Jenin camp.
It is one of the most saddening events in recent history
There is first hand testimony from Jenin residents who were filmed for the movie Jenin Jenin, and surprise surprise the movie is banned from screening in Israel and the producer of the documentary was shot dead last year.
First hand testimony by soldiers who participated in the "event" suggest war crimes and other crimes.
The name Kurdi comes to mind when you think of the massacre.
He earned a medal of excellence after he described his pilgrimage to the Jenin camp.
It is one of the most saddening events in recent history
"It is not up to the Palestinians to prove the massacre happened, it is up to Israelis to prove the massacre did not happen."
Another one of those Indybay-goes-Wonderland moments. No mass graves, no missing Palestinians, but it's still Israel's responsibility to prove itself innocent anyway.
Face it -- the Palestinian propaganda machine whooped up a slander it can't support with evidence.
@%<
Another one of those Indybay-goes-Wonderland moments. No mass graves, no missing Palestinians, but it's still Israel's responsibility to prove itself innocent anyway.
Face it -- the Palestinian propaganda machine whooped up a slander it can't support with evidence.
@%<
Hi> It is not up to the Palestinians to prove the massacre happened, it is up to Israelis to prove the massacre did not happen.
Really? Are you at all familiar with modern concepts of justice: innocent until proven guilty?
Do you really think that you can just launch unfounded accusations and expect others to have to defend themselves from such a McCarthyist witch-hunt?
The evidence, however, is in and it does not support the allegations originally leveled by "eyewitnesses".
Despite the accusation that 500-3000 people were methodically executed, only 52 bodies were recovered (mostly armed fighters while many of the civilians were killed by terrorist bombs and not the IDF) and no one is missing. There is no one to be burried forever in the rubble or in mass graves (which, of course, have not been found because they never existed).
Hi> There is first hand testimony from Jenin residents who were filmed for the movie Jenin Jenin
Are these the same "eyewitnesses" who lied in the first place?
Are these the same residents who dug up bodies from the cemetery, some decomposed well beyond what could have been possible, to inflate the death toll?
Are these the same residents who asked western reporters to film them posing as dead in their homes?
Hi> It is one of the most saddening events in recent history
Spoken like a true "anti-Zionist". Millions of people die in Rwanda, Congo, Liberia and elsewhere. It is of no matter to you. But we are to believe that this non-event is one of the worst things in recent history?!
Really? Are you at all familiar with modern concepts of justice: innocent until proven guilty?
Do you really think that you can just launch unfounded accusations and expect others to have to defend themselves from such a McCarthyist witch-hunt?
The evidence, however, is in and it does not support the allegations originally leveled by "eyewitnesses".
Despite the accusation that 500-3000 people were methodically executed, only 52 bodies were recovered (mostly armed fighters while many of the civilians were killed by terrorist bombs and not the IDF) and no one is missing. There is no one to be burried forever in the rubble or in mass graves (which, of course, have not been found because they never existed).
Hi> There is first hand testimony from Jenin residents who were filmed for the movie Jenin Jenin
Are these the same "eyewitnesses" who lied in the first place?
Are these the same residents who dug up bodies from the cemetery, some decomposed well beyond what could have been possible, to inflate the death toll?
Are these the same residents who asked western reporters to film them posing as dead in their homes?
Hi> It is one of the most saddening events in recent history
Spoken like a true "anti-Zionist". Millions of people die in Rwanda, Congo, Liberia and elsewhere. It is of no matter to you. But we are to believe that this non-event is one of the worst things in recent history?!
Hi> It is not up to the Palestinians to prove the massacre happened, it is up to Israelis to prove the massacre did not happen.
Really? Are you at all familiar with modern concepts of justice: innocent until proven guilty?
---
With Angie (certainly among the most prolific writers here), that only applies to Palestinians. For example, the case of the leader of the military wing of Hamas (I make it a point to try and forget the names of these criminals), Angie said she had no proof he was a terrorist except the word of Israel, which she does not accept in the slightest. If by some slim chance a Palestinian is proven guilty, then they get an exemption in the name of national liberation and legitimate armed resistance.
But any Israeli is guilty of course, even if they are guilty of living in the West Bank. Perhaps someone should start posting as "Concerned Islamist" she might find that amusing enough to laugh at...
Really? Are you at all familiar with modern concepts of justice: innocent until proven guilty?
---
With Angie (certainly among the most prolific writers here), that only applies to Palestinians. For example, the case of the leader of the military wing of Hamas (I make it a point to try and forget the names of these criminals), Angie said she had no proof he was a terrorist except the word of Israel, which she does not accept in the slightest. If by some slim chance a Palestinian is proven guilty, then they get an exemption in the name of national liberation and legitimate armed resistance.
But any Israeli is guilty of course, even if they are guilty of living in the West Bank. Perhaps someone should start posting as "Concerned Islamist" she might find that amusing enough to laugh at...
It is the zionists who are not familiar with the concept of innocent until proven guilty.
They don't extend the benefit of the doubt to any of the Palestinian prisoners (thousands) who have yet to be convicted by a jury of their peers- thus, they are innocent for all intents and purposes!
They don't extend the benefit of the doubt to any of the Palestinian prisoners (thousands) who have yet to be convicted by a jury of their peers- thus, they are innocent for all intents and purposes!
I dont know if Israel guarantees the right to a jusry of ones peers but that is a relitively modern concept and many countries would reject it for valid reasons in favour of a jury of judges. maybe investigative judges (judges know law better and are more likely to properly consider the implications of their decision).
a jury of ones peers implies a distrust of authority that may or may not be warented. It is a sacrifice of the ability to find a correct decision in a particular situation in favour of less control to the "authority".
a jury of ones peers implies a distrust of authority that may or may not be warented. It is a sacrifice of the ability to find a correct decision in a particular situation in favour of less control to the "authority".
The benefit of the doubt that was extended to Corries killer should be extended to all Palestinians if justice is to be served.
Otherwise not all the people are equal under that law
Otherwise not all the people are equal under that law
Fair enough.
But this issue should be delt with on a case by case basis.
Israel shoud of course be consistant enought to give those people a legal status and a reason why they are being held and a method of disputing that reason.
Since while some of them may be innocent of all crimes at the same time some may be very bad people.
My point above was that it was not appropriate to apply US definition of fairness to israel only to do what you did above - to apply israels own definition of fairness to itself.
But this issue should be delt with on a case by case basis.
Israel shoud of course be consistant enought to give those people a legal status and a reason why they are being held and a method of disputing that reason.
Since while some of them may be innocent of all crimes at the same time some may be very bad people.
My point above was that it was not appropriate to apply US definition of fairness to israel only to do what you did above - to apply israels own definition of fairness to itself.
A jury of one's peers is a matter for civilian trials.
Surely the "anti-ZIonists" wouldn't argue that at Nuremberg nazis should have been judged by other nazis.
Nor is Israeli (civlian) law biased. For over 50 years it has recognized its Arab population as full citizens and equal before the law.
So now let's return to the topic:
I'm still waiting for Angie and Hi to respond to my comments just above.
Surely the "anti-ZIonists" wouldn't argue that at Nuremberg nazis should have been judged by other nazis.
Nor is Israeli (civlian) law biased. For over 50 years it has recognized its Arab population as full citizens and equal before the law.
So now let's return to the topic:
I'm still waiting for Angie and Hi to respond to my comments just above.
If non-jewish citizens are equal to jewish nationals where is the problem? Why do I differentiate between the usage of the words: citizen and national?
Are non-jewish citizens allowed to live where they please?
When and where are non-jewish citizens allowed to purchase Real Property? - Where they please?
Are non-jewish citizens taxed at the same rate as jewish nationals?
Are non-jewish citizens "treated" the same as jewish nationals before the law?
What are the 'rules' pertaining to the of arrest, charging and the confinement of non-jews vs. those of jews?
How do the penalties (as ajudicated in Israeli courts) differ between jews and non-jews?
Is this equal treatment? Why?
Are non-jewish citizens allowed to live where they please?
When and where are non-jewish citizens allowed to purchase Real Property? - Where they please?
Are non-jewish citizens taxed at the same rate as jewish nationals?
Are non-jewish citizens "treated" the same as jewish nationals before the law?
What are the 'rules' pertaining to the of arrest, charging and the confinement of non-jews vs. those of jews?
How do the penalties (as ajudicated in Israeli courts) differ between jews and non-jews?
Is this equal treatment? Why?
! > Why do I differentiate between the usage of the words: citizen and national?
Good question. Why do you do so? Israeli law does not.
! > Are non-jewish citizens allowed to live where they please?
Yes.
! > When and where are non-jewish citizens allowed to purchase Real Property?
Non-Jews face the same restrictions on property purchases that Jews do. (Like Mexico, much of Israel is not privately held and only available for long-term lease).
! > Are non-jewish citizens taxed at the same rate as jewish nationals?
I believe so.
! > Are non-jewish citizens "treated" the same as jewish nationals before the law?
Absolutely.
Note how instead of addressing the previous points (about which he was wrong) "!" enters new lies (in the form of "honest questions"). So let's look at what "!" missed:
1.
!> Has there been any real full retractions of any articles published by the Press regarding their Jenin reporting?
Newspapers have published more informed articles which contradict the earlier ALLEGATIONS WHICH PROVED TO BE FALSE.
Why is it that you (and Angie, et al) prefer to revel in old, discredited news rather than face the facts that even PA officials now admit?
! > [No response.]
2.
As my comments illustrated, I read the article, not just the headline:
KL> that was the title (much to the Telegraph's later embarrassment). But these were the false CLAIMS of alleged "eyewitnesses".
My point was that most people wouldn't follow the link, and that you presented this headline as if in support of Angie's allegations:
KL> you only provided the headline -- and seemingly as proof that there was a massacre.
Thus I concluded that you provided the headline with the intent to mislead the bulk of the sheeple who you knew wouldn't follow the link.
Thus we see why "!" is attempting to change the subject from the basic fact (agreed by virtually everyone but some spooks on IMC) that THERE WAS NO MASSACRE IN JENIN, and from his own integrity to mine.
I think !'s own comments speak more about his integrity than I could ever say and will leave it at that. I don't need to cheerlead myself as ! does.
3.
! > After reviewing the definitions above and aerial-photographs of the aftermath certainly #4 applies.
So you think that the 4th definition applies? That's a bad start already, given that this is not what one usually generally thinks of when the word is said. Note also that the context in which most of the "anti-Zionists" here have used the word was as per definition #1, which again stinks of dishonest misrepresentation.
But does definition #4, an act of COMPLETE destruction, apply?
A cursory look at the aerial photos shows that only a very small section of one part of Jenin was destroyed. So no, not even definition #4 applies.
Perhaps the anti-Zionists should amend their statement and simply state that a few buildings in Jenin were "massacred"?
4.
"!" returns to the usual sophistry:
! > After reading the various reports of the NGOs specified #1 and #2 apply.
Except what do those reports say? As "!" quotes:
|| Human Rights Watch found no evidence to sustain claims of massacres or large-scale extrajudicial executions by the IDF in Jenin
The very source "!" quotes is disagreeing with him/her!!
So let's now return to Angie's topic:
5.
> In the case of Jenin, everyone was willing and eager to dismiss "a massacre", this before an investigation of any kind was carried out.
Wasn't it the UN who first condemned Israel for a massacre and then assembled a team to investigate? (Only to eventually conclude that there was no massacre? That the "eyewitness" reports of 500-3000 dead were false?)
Angie's twisting continues:
6.
> those figures were greatly reduced by the IDF to the point where we were almost led to believe that no one was killed in Jenin despite bodies to the contrary.
Except that only 52 bodies were found and no one is missing. (The IDF estimate of 50-100 dead proved accurate. That one report once put the number at 200 is of no great significance.) What "bodies to the contrary" are you speaking of?
7.
In fact, Angie states exactly the opposite later in the same post. Note how first she claims that the bodies are there, then she explains why the bodies are NOT there:
> The report put the total number of dead at 52.... However, it does not take into account all the variables. such as those buried in their homes under the rubble, or those whose bodies may have been removed....
That's because no bodies were removed and (contrary to your propaganda) very few bodies were found burried in the rubble! And those were included in the body count. Again:
*** NO ONE IS LISTED AS MISSING! ***
The residents of Jenin have all been accounted for. Who were these absent dead bodies? Space Aliens?
Good question. Why do you do so? Israeli law does not.
! > Are non-jewish citizens allowed to live where they please?
Yes.
! > When and where are non-jewish citizens allowed to purchase Real Property?
Non-Jews face the same restrictions on property purchases that Jews do. (Like Mexico, much of Israel is not privately held and only available for long-term lease).
! > Are non-jewish citizens taxed at the same rate as jewish nationals?
I believe so.
! > Are non-jewish citizens "treated" the same as jewish nationals before the law?
Absolutely.
Note how instead of addressing the previous points (about which he was wrong) "!" enters new lies (in the form of "honest questions"). So let's look at what "!" missed:
1.
!> Has there been any real full retractions of any articles published by the Press regarding their Jenin reporting?
Newspapers have published more informed articles which contradict the earlier ALLEGATIONS WHICH PROVED TO BE FALSE.
Why is it that you (and Angie, et al) prefer to revel in old, discredited news rather than face the facts that even PA officials now admit?
! > [No response.]
2.
As my comments illustrated, I read the article, not just the headline:
KL> that was the title (much to the Telegraph's later embarrassment). But these were the false CLAIMS of alleged "eyewitnesses".
My point was that most people wouldn't follow the link, and that you presented this headline as if in support of Angie's allegations:
KL> you only provided the headline -- and seemingly as proof that there was a massacre.
Thus I concluded that you provided the headline with the intent to mislead the bulk of the sheeple who you knew wouldn't follow the link.
Thus we see why "!" is attempting to change the subject from the basic fact (agreed by virtually everyone but some spooks on IMC) that THERE WAS NO MASSACRE IN JENIN, and from his own integrity to mine.
I think !'s own comments speak more about his integrity than I could ever say and will leave it at that. I don't need to cheerlead myself as ! does.
3.
! > After reviewing the definitions above and aerial-photographs of the aftermath certainly #4 applies.
So you think that the 4th definition applies? That's a bad start already, given that this is not what one usually generally thinks of when the word is said. Note also that the context in which most of the "anti-Zionists" here have used the word was as per definition #1, which again stinks of dishonest misrepresentation.
But does definition #4, an act of COMPLETE destruction, apply?
A cursory look at the aerial photos shows that only a very small section of one part of Jenin was destroyed. So no, not even definition #4 applies.
Perhaps the anti-Zionists should amend their statement and simply state that a few buildings in Jenin were "massacred"?
4.
"!" returns to the usual sophistry:
! > After reading the various reports of the NGOs specified #1 and #2 apply.
Except what do those reports say? As "!" quotes:
|| Human Rights Watch found no evidence to sustain claims of massacres or large-scale extrajudicial executions by the IDF in Jenin
The very source "!" quotes is disagreeing with him/her!!
So let's now return to Angie's topic:
5.
> In the case of Jenin, everyone was willing and eager to dismiss "a massacre", this before an investigation of any kind was carried out.
Wasn't it the UN who first condemned Israel for a massacre and then assembled a team to investigate? (Only to eventually conclude that there was no massacre? That the "eyewitness" reports of 500-3000 dead were false?)
Angie's twisting continues:
6.
> those figures were greatly reduced by the IDF to the point where we were almost led to believe that no one was killed in Jenin despite bodies to the contrary.
Except that only 52 bodies were found and no one is missing. (The IDF estimate of 50-100 dead proved accurate. That one report once put the number at 200 is of no great significance.) What "bodies to the contrary" are you speaking of?
7.
In fact, Angie states exactly the opposite later in the same post. Note how first she claims that the bodies are there, then she explains why the bodies are NOT there:
> The report put the total number of dead at 52.... However, it does not take into account all the variables. such as those buried in their homes under the rubble, or those whose bodies may have been removed....
That's because no bodies were removed and (contrary to your propaganda) very few bodies were found burried in the rubble! And those were included in the body count. Again:
*** NO ONE IS LISTED AS MISSING! ***
The residents of Jenin have all been accounted for. Who were these absent dead bodies? Space Aliens?
Israel's Two-Tiered Citizenship Law Bars Non-Jews From 93 Percent of Its Lands
http://www.mediamonitors.net/tekiner1.html
by Roselle Tekiner
Extract
No Israeli nationality applies to all citizens, as does a US nationality in the United States
Zionist uses of the term "nation," "national, " and "nationality" are indeed difficult to understand and to explain because they derive from concepts that are unfamiliar to Americans. Moreover, their true meanings are deliberately obscured by usually incorrect translations from Hebrew into English.
The prime example of deception, from which the others flow, is the accepted translation of Israel's Law of Citizenship as "Nationality " Law. In the original Hebrew text, the word is ezrahut, the correct translation is "citizenship."
It would not occur to the average English peaking observer to object to translating ezrahut as "nationality" because "citizenship" and "nationality" are interchangeable terms in the United States, as well as in most democratic societies. In Israel, however, they are two separate and very different statuses. Citizenship (ezrahut) may be held by Arabs as well as Jews while nationality (le'um), which bestows significantly greater rights than citizenship, may be claimed by Jews alone.
end of extract***
http://www.mediamonitors.net/tekiner1.html
by Roselle Tekiner
Extract
No Israeli nationality applies to all citizens, as does a US nationality in the United States
Zionist uses of the term "nation," "national, " and "nationality" are indeed difficult to understand and to explain because they derive from concepts that are unfamiliar to Americans. Moreover, their true meanings are deliberately obscured by usually incorrect translations from Hebrew into English.
The prime example of deception, from which the others flow, is the accepted translation of Israel's Law of Citizenship as "Nationality " Law. In the original Hebrew text, the word is ezrahut, the correct translation is "citizenship."
It would not occur to the average English peaking observer to object to translating ezrahut as "nationality" because "citizenship" and "nationality" are interchangeable terms in the United States, as well as in most democratic societies. In Israel, however, they are two separate and very different statuses. Citizenship (ezrahut) may be held by Arabs as well as Jews while nationality (le'um), which bestows significantly greater rights than citizenship, may be claimed by Jews alone.
end of extract***
Note how ! again ignores points 1-4, specifically directed to him, as well as 5-7 which pertain to the topic of this article?
Now we have a new lie:
| Israel's Two-Tiered Citizenship Law Bars Non-Jews From 93 Percent of Its Lands
As I just explained, this 93% of land cannot be individually owned by anyone, not Jews, not Arabs, not Christians, not Bahaais. Only long-term leases are available.
The semantic word play on "citizenship" and "nationality" is similarly bankrupt. Israeli law makes no such distinction nor is this distinction unique to Israel. A Turk may gain German citizenship, but that doesn't make him Germanic (nationality).
So will you now address points 1-7 above?
(Of course not.)
Now we have a new lie:
| Israel's Two-Tiered Citizenship Law Bars Non-Jews From 93 Percent of Its Lands
As I just explained, this 93% of land cannot be individually owned by anyone, not Jews, not Arabs, not Christians, not Bahaais. Only long-term leases are available.
The semantic word play on "citizenship" and "nationality" is similarly bankrupt. Israeli law makes no such distinction nor is this distinction unique to Israel. A Turk may gain German citizenship, but that doesn't make him Germanic (nationality).
So will you now address points 1-7 above?
(Of course not.)
On the question of citizenship KL is wrong again!
Israel's Two-Tiered Citizenship Law Bars Non-Jews From 93 Percent of Its Lands
http://www.mediamonitors.net/tekiner1.html
by Roselle Tekiner
Now getting to your silly shopping list - maybe if you were interested in actually learning something, you just might be able to 'see' a little more than the minor items, that themselves - are maybe just one-step-above meaningless in your search for your 'bone of contention'.
1. A revision IS NOT A RETRACTION!
PLEASE NOTE THE TEXT BELOW!
2. Why should the Telegraph be embarrassed? - the article explains itself.
Yes I provided the headline and it's appropriate link! (as I always do!) if you opted not to follow it, but decided to comment on the headline, that's your problem!
The article in question:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/04/13/wmid213.xml
Block extract of the last four paragraphs"
An Israeli army spokesman dismissed the suggestion. "It's just a story. It's science fiction. We deal with this sort of fiction whenever we have operations," he said.
Sporadic bursts of gunfire showed that a mopping-up operation was continuing yesterday, although the last pockets of organised Palestinian resistance were crushed on Thursday.
While it may be impossible to confirm any of the claims, people in Jenin offer numerous accounts of Israeli soldiers killing civilians. Barakhat Jaba'i said he saw his house being destroyed by a missile fired from an Apache helicopter.
A neighbouring house, he added, was hit and all four people inside killed. International aid agencies have criticised Israel for sealing off areas and harassing relief workers.
The International Red Cross said that its Palestinian staff had been shot at and "humiliated" by Israeli soldiers.
end of article/extract***
Notes:
1st para extract: However the same office within 24-hours of the beginning of the 'incursion' released a statement stating: "hundreds killed..." although this statement was revised many times (AS I HAVE ALSO PREVIOUSLY NOTED).
3rd para extract: "While it may be impossible to confirm any of the claims..." It seems that KL is willfully overlooking this statement that constantly reappers (even in recent articles), KL and others fail to question just why it is impossible to verify claims... could it be that the Press and International NGOs are consistantly denied access to the site?
4th para extract: Gee, this seems to confirm the third!
5th para extract: Not only is this itself a war crime! - it also sure seems to provide confirmation of the third paragraph once again.
On the matter of integrity: I think its a matter of your own conscience, and maybe you should address this yourself - privately.
3. I think that if you lived in one of the more than 100 buildings (figures: IOF), the question regarding 'destruction' would be moot.
4. Regarding the quote below:
Extract
Human Rights Watch found no evidence to sustain claims of massacres or large-scale extrajudicial executions by the IDF in Jenin refugee camp. However, many of the civilian deaths documented by Human Rights Watch amounted to unlawful or willful killings by the IDF.
End of extract***
The HRW report in full here:
Jenin from Human Rights Watch (HRW)
<http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/israel3/>
Also from the WRW report: Summary:
Extract
The presence of armed Palestinian militants inside Jenin refugee camp, and the preparations made by those armed Palestinian militants in anticipation of the IDF incursion, does not detract from the IDF's obligation under international humanitarian law to take all feasible precautions to avoid harm to civilians. Israel also has a legal duty to ensure that its attacks on legitimate military targets did not cause disproportionate harm to civilians. Unfortunately, these obligations were not met. Human Rights Watch's research demonstrates that, during their incursion into the Jenin refugee camp, Israeli forces committed serious violations of international humanitarian law, some amounting prima facie to war crimes.
End of extract***
I also have noticed your neglect to address the issue concerning war crimes... is this intentional?
I'm not the person with a problem with the word: 'massacre', I've only provided the definition, and questions to your and others lack of acceptance of the use of the word: 'massacre' as a description (which certainly seems to match both descriptions and pictures of the occurances in Jenin) in other cases with lower death counts than Jenin, but refuse to allow it's use in this case... puzzeling.
5. My explanation above, most probably meets Angie's approval...
Yes - The UN assembled a team to investigate... and they sat around for two-weeks while Israel - initially accepted a UN inspection... on the recommendation of a lawyer in England, looked for a way out... after constantly changing the requirements for the individual inspectors. The Investigation NEVER TOOK PLACE... now why is that? Other 'qualified' investigations by other NGOs using 'qualified investigators' also never took place... Why? Israel DENIED ACCESS!
-So, who performed the investigations and interviewed witnesses? The Care Givers.
6. The number seven was in fact released by the IOF at one point, after the initial claim by the IOF of hundreds.
If you want citations - do the search yourself... just who said what, when is not that important.
7. I believe the actual count is now 54 confirmed.
While, I'm not sure of the existance of a publicly accessible published list. the IOF has not been exactly cooporative in their releases of names of those arrested (at the time of the 'operation' I believe the number 2500 was at-one-time released... though some (could also be many - lack of published information) were held as short as 4-5 hours, others remain detained to date), nor of their actual place of detainment.
Israel's Two-Tiered Citizenship Law Bars Non-Jews From 93 Percent of Its Lands
http://www.mediamonitors.net/tekiner1.html
by Roselle Tekiner
Now getting to your silly shopping list - maybe if you were interested in actually learning something, you just might be able to 'see' a little more than the minor items, that themselves - are maybe just one-step-above meaningless in your search for your 'bone of contention'.
1. A revision IS NOT A RETRACTION!
PLEASE NOTE THE TEXT BELOW!
2. Why should the Telegraph be embarrassed? - the article explains itself.
Yes I provided the headline and it's appropriate link! (as I always do!) if you opted not to follow it, but decided to comment on the headline, that's your problem!
The article in question:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/04/13/wmid213.xml
Block extract of the last four paragraphs"
An Israeli army spokesman dismissed the suggestion. "It's just a story. It's science fiction. We deal with this sort of fiction whenever we have operations," he said.
Sporadic bursts of gunfire showed that a mopping-up operation was continuing yesterday, although the last pockets of organised Palestinian resistance were crushed on Thursday.
While it may be impossible to confirm any of the claims, people in Jenin offer numerous accounts of Israeli soldiers killing civilians. Barakhat Jaba'i said he saw his house being destroyed by a missile fired from an Apache helicopter.
A neighbouring house, he added, was hit and all four people inside killed. International aid agencies have criticised Israel for sealing off areas and harassing relief workers.
The International Red Cross said that its Palestinian staff had been shot at and "humiliated" by Israeli soldiers.
end of article/extract***
Notes:
1st para extract: However the same office within 24-hours of the beginning of the 'incursion' released a statement stating: "hundreds killed..." although this statement was revised many times (AS I HAVE ALSO PREVIOUSLY NOTED).
3rd para extract: "While it may be impossible to confirm any of the claims..." It seems that KL is willfully overlooking this statement that constantly reappers (even in recent articles), KL and others fail to question just why it is impossible to verify claims... could it be that the Press and International NGOs are consistantly denied access to the site?
4th para extract: Gee, this seems to confirm the third!
5th para extract: Not only is this itself a war crime! - it also sure seems to provide confirmation of the third paragraph once again.
On the matter of integrity: I think its a matter of your own conscience, and maybe you should address this yourself - privately.
3. I think that if you lived in one of the more than 100 buildings (figures: IOF), the question regarding 'destruction' would be moot.
4. Regarding the quote below:
Extract
Human Rights Watch found no evidence to sustain claims of massacres or large-scale extrajudicial executions by the IDF in Jenin refugee camp. However, many of the civilian deaths documented by Human Rights Watch amounted to unlawful or willful killings by the IDF.
End of extract***
The HRW report in full here:
Jenin from Human Rights Watch (HRW)
<http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/israel3/>
Also from the WRW report: Summary:
Extract
The presence of armed Palestinian militants inside Jenin refugee camp, and the preparations made by those armed Palestinian militants in anticipation of the IDF incursion, does not detract from the IDF's obligation under international humanitarian law to take all feasible precautions to avoid harm to civilians. Israel also has a legal duty to ensure that its attacks on legitimate military targets did not cause disproportionate harm to civilians. Unfortunately, these obligations were not met. Human Rights Watch's research demonstrates that, during their incursion into the Jenin refugee camp, Israeli forces committed serious violations of international humanitarian law, some amounting prima facie to war crimes.
End of extract***
I also have noticed your neglect to address the issue concerning war crimes... is this intentional?
I'm not the person with a problem with the word: 'massacre', I've only provided the definition, and questions to your and others lack of acceptance of the use of the word: 'massacre' as a description (which certainly seems to match both descriptions and pictures of the occurances in Jenin) in other cases with lower death counts than Jenin, but refuse to allow it's use in this case... puzzeling.
5. My explanation above, most probably meets Angie's approval...
Yes - The UN assembled a team to investigate... and they sat around for two-weeks while Israel - initially accepted a UN inspection... on the recommendation of a lawyer in England, looked for a way out... after constantly changing the requirements for the individual inspectors. The Investigation NEVER TOOK PLACE... now why is that? Other 'qualified' investigations by other NGOs using 'qualified investigators' also never took place... Why? Israel DENIED ACCESS!
-So, who performed the investigations and interviewed witnesses? The Care Givers.
6. The number seven was in fact released by the IOF at one point, after the initial claim by the IOF of hundreds.
If you want citations - do the search yourself... just who said what, when is not that important.
7. I believe the actual count is now 54 confirmed.
While, I'm not sure of the existance of a publicly accessible published list. the IOF has not been exactly cooporative in their releases of names of those arrested (at the time of the 'operation' I believe the number 2500 was at-one-time released... though some (could also be many - lack of published information) were held as short as 4-5 hours, others remain detained to date), nor of their actual place of detainment.
! > On the question of citizenship KL is wrong again!
Unfortunately, ! can't support his claim beyond regurgitating his already refuted source.
NO ONE, neither Jewish or non-Jewish, can privately own these lands. (Odd that on a leftist system we get someone crowing about individual ownership. This is almost as rich as JA advancing the Bushist/capitalist argument by complaining that US loan guarrantees to Israel prevent banks from making greater profits and thus decrease the tax-base).
! > 1. A revision IS NOT A RETRACTION!
So what? Now try to address what I said:
KL> Newspapers have published more informed articles which contradict the earlier ALLEGATIONS WHICH PROVED TO BE FALSE.
KL> Why is it that you (and Angie, et al) prefer to revel in old, discredited news rather than face the facts that even PA officials now admit?
! > 2. Why should the Telegraph be embarrassed? - the article explains itself.
Because that headline, the blind repetition of an allegation, proved to be wrong. That's bad journalism.
! > I provided the headline and it's appropriate link! (as I always do!) if you opted not to follow it...
Ah, but that's the rub and you missed my point:
KL> most people wouldn't follow the link, and that you presented this headline as if in support of Angie's allegations
KL> you only provided the headline -- and seemingly as proof that there was a massacre.
KL> Thus I concluded that you provided the headline with the intent to mislead the bulk of the sheeple who you knew wouldn't follow the link.
! > 3. I think that if you lived in one of the more than 100 buildings (figures: IOF), the question regarding 'destruction' would be moot.
Another dishonest twist. We weren't discussing the definition of "destruction" but the 4th definition of "massacre" which required "complete destruction".
There was no "complete destruction" and thus no massacre.
And wasn't it 100 apartment units (not buildings) that were destroyed? Did you just lie again or was that another "honest" mistake?
4. HRW refutes claims of a massacre
What "!" states here has nothing to do with what was discussed:
! > After reading the various reports of the NGOs specified [definitions] #1 and #2 apply.
KL> Except what do those reports say? As "!" quotes:
|| Human Rights Watch found no evidence to sustain claims of massacres or large-scale extrajudicial executions by the IDF in Jenin
KL> The very source "!" quotes is disagreeing with him/her!!
Can you explain why you are claiming that HRW said there was a "massacre" when your own quote of HRW said that there was NO massacre? Of course not. You were too busy dihonestly twisting the truth and playing fast and loose with the facts and definitions.
! > I'm not the person with a problem with the word: 'massacre', I've only provided the definition
4A. Your the one who attempted to twist these definitions to fit when in fact they did not.
! > in other cases with lower death counts than Jenin
4B. As I've stated time and again, it's not the number of people killed but HOW they are killed that defines a massacre.
5. The UN's condemnation of Israel prior to an investigaton.
As with point 4, ! does not address this but enters a distraction.
How can it be that the UN rushed to one-sidedly condemn Israel before it even assembled an investigatory team?!
How can it be that Angie reverses this and claims the exact opposite happened? Is she that delusional?
6. Body counts
KL> That one report once put the number at 200 is of no great significance.)
! > just who said what, when is not that important.
Did you mean to agree with me and disagree with Angie on this point or did you slip?
7. *** NO ONE IS LISTED AS MISSING! ***
! > I believe the actual count is now 54 confirmed.
Would that be because 2 people were killed by terrorist bombs/booby-traps after the end of the battle and after the IDF had withdrawn?
Regardless, seems we agree that 52-54 Arabs were killed (and 23 Israelis).
8. So how do you explain Angie's hysterics, one minute claiming that the "body count" proves that more people were killed and the next minute explaining why more bodies weren't found because they were carted away or unrecovered in the rubble?
Both of those explanations are false. No bodies are missing, no bodies were carted away, no bodies are forever burried in the rubble never to be found. Why? Because only 52-54 Arabs were killed, most of them armed terrorists, and of the civilians many were killed by terrorist bombs and not by the IDF.
So the bottom line is:
"EYEWITNESS" REPORTS OF 500-3000 PEOPLE METHODICALLY EXECUTED WERE A PROPAGANDA LIE.
OTHER THAN ARAB PROPAGANDISTS MASSACRING THE TRUTH, THERE WAS NO MASSACRE IN JENIN.
Unfortunately, ! can't support his claim beyond regurgitating his already refuted source.
NO ONE, neither Jewish or non-Jewish, can privately own these lands. (Odd that on a leftist system we get someone crowing about individual ownership. This is almost as rich as JA advancing the Bushist/capitalist argument by complaining that US loan guarrantees to Israel prevent banks from making greater profits and thus decrease the tax-base).
! > 1. A revision IS NOT A RETRACTION!
So what? Now try to address what I said:
KL> Newspapers have published more informed articles which contradict the earlier ALLEGATIONS WHICH PROVED TO BE FALSE.
KL> Why is it that you (and Angie, et al) prefer to revel in old, discredited news rather than face the facts that even PA officials now admit?
! > 2. Why should the Telegraph be embarrassed? - the article explains itself.
Because that headline, the blind repetition of an allegation, proved to be wrong. That's bad journalism.
! > I provided the headline and it's appropriate link! (as I always do!) if you opted not to follow it...
Ah, but that's the rub and you missed my point:
KL> most people wouldn't follow the link, and that you presented this headline as if in support of Angie's allegations
KL> you only provided the headline -- and seemingly as proof that there was a massacre.
KL> Thus I concluded that you provided the headline with the intent to mislead the bulk of the sheeple who you knew wouldn't follow the link.
! > 3. I think that if you lived in one of the more than 100 buildings (figures: IOF), the question regarding 'destruction' would be moot.
Another dishonest twist. We weren't discussing the definition of "destruction" but the 4th definition of "massacre" which required "complete destruction".
There was no "complete destruction" and thus no massacre.
And wasn't it 100 apartment units (not buildings) that were destroyed? Did you just lie again or was that another "honest" mistake?
4. HRW refutes claims of a massacre
What "!" states here has nothing to do with what was discussed:
! > After reading the various reports of the NGOs specified [definitions] #1 and #2 apply.
KL> Except what do those reports say? As "!" quotes:
|| Human Rights Watch found no evidence to sustain claims of massacres or large-scale extrajudicial executions by the IDF in Jenin
KL> The very source "!" quotes is disagreeing with him/her!!
Can you explain why you are claiming that HRW said there was a "massacre" when your own quote of HRW said that there was NO massacre? Of course not. You were too busy dihonestly twisting the truth and playing fast and loose with the facts and definitions.
! > I'm not the person with a problem with the word: 'massacre', I've only provided the definition
4A. Your the one who attempted to twist these definitions to fit when in fact they did not.
! > in other cases with lower death counts than Jenin
4B. As I've stated time and again, it's not the number of people killed but HOW they are killed that defines a massacre.
5. The UN's condemnation of Israel prior to an investigaton.
As with point 4, ! does not address this but enters a distraction.
How can it be that the UN rushed to one-sidedly condemn Israel before it even assembled an investigatory team?!
How can it be that Angie reverses this and claims the exact opposite happened? Is she that delusional?
6. Body counts
KL> That one report once put the number at 200 is of no great significance.)
! > just who said what, when is not that important.
Did you mean to agree with me and disagree with Angie on this point or did you slip?
7. *** NO ONE IS LISTED AS MISSING! ***
! > I believe the actual count is now 54 confirmed.
Would that be because 2 people were killed by terrorist bombs/booby-traps after the end of the battle and after the IDF had withdrawn?
Regardless, seems we agree that 52-54 Arabs were killed (and 23 Israelis).
8. So how do you explain Angie's hysterics, one minute claiming that the "body count" proves that more people were killed and the next minute explaining why more bodies weren't found because they were carted away or unrecovered in the rubble?
Both of those explanations are false. No bodies are missing, no bodies were carted away, no bodies are forever burried in the rubble never to be found. Why? Because only 52-54 Arabs were killed, most of them armed terrorists, and of the civilians many were killed by terrorist bombs and not by the IDF.
So the bottom line is:
"EYEWITNESS" REPORTS OF 500-3000 PEOPLE METHODICALLY EXECUTED WERE A PROPAGANDA LIE.
OTHER THAN ARAB PROPAGANDISTS MASSACRING THE TRUTH, THERE WAS NO MASSACRE IN JENIN.
I'm wondering whether "!" could point us to any major paper's retraction of the initial claim that 6000 died in the WTC attack. Not a correction, an official retraction.
Failing that, could he explain why the lack of an official retraction in any paper of the initial and exaggerated claims of deaths in Jenin should be considered meaningful when the lack of an equivalent with the WTC should not?
@%<
Failing that, could he explain why the lack of an official retraction in any paper of the initial and exaggerated claims of deaths in Jenin should be considered meaningful when the lack of an equivalent with the WTC should not?
@%<
Today (or rather tonight, depending on where you are) I'll briefly look at the "report" by Kofi Annan; however, prior to so doing, it's of interest to note why, and how, this "report" came into being, the machinations that led up to same having all the stuff espionage movies are made of..
As the Israeli forces continued its foray into the Jenin refugee camp from April 3 to April 12, 02, reports were being transmitted daily to the UN from Commissioner General Peter Hansen, UNRWA, detailing the atrocities.
On April 7th he stated that the Israeli forces had turned Jenin "into a hellish battlefield". On April l0th, he reported "catastrophic conditions", and on April 16th, Mr. Hansen described "monumental destruction".
So, in reality, the first and most damaging reports with respect to the atrocities occurring in Jenin were not from the Palestinians, themselves, but from the UN's own agency.
In an effort to give the impressoin, at least, that it was doing something about Jenin, as the anger towards Israel grew in intensity, the UNSC adopted a US worded resolution 15-0, a resolutioni which welcomed Colin Powell's trip to the region, and the setting up of an investigative team to travel to Jenin, report on the horrors therein, present its findings to the UNSC,and inform the public as expeditiously as possible.
All very noble except this watered down resolution was put forth to ensure that the much tougher one by the Arab members of the UNSC would fail. Their version called for a multinational force to be sent to the area to protect the Palestinian peoples.
So armed with resolution 1403, Mr. Annan et al appointed an investigative team to travel to Jenin.
Everything was rolling along as it should until shortly after the composition of the team was announced. It was then that Israel, who had welcomed the US worded resolution, began the first of what would continue to be more and more outrageous demands.
Let's take a look at some of them, shall we?
a) that the investigative team include anti-terorrist "experts" who would examine the scene from a military point of view;
b) that any investigative report would not produce findings that may be used to prosecute Israeli soldiers for war crimes;
c) that Israel would determine the documentation, if any, the Investigative team would look at; and which witnesses to question;
d) that the report be limited to "fact finding"; and,
e) that it could not produce any general conclusions and/or recommendations
So, in other words, we marvelled at the time, why would the UN bother?
Kofi Annan was bending backwards and forwards to acquiesce with these demands, and each time an issue was resolved in Israel's favour, another would come up. Meanwhile, there was the investigative team hanging around in Geneva waiting for word to head on to the Occupied Territories.
That word never came. Israeli continued its stalling tactics whilst in Jenin the evidence was growing cold, and the horror stories were becoming secondary to the charade of Israel v. the UN.
Finally, faced with no other choice, on May 3rd, 2002, Kofi Annan announced, with the urging of the US, that the team was disbanded. We were all left marvelling at how Israel, with "nothing to hide" had so efficiently and effecively ensured that nothing would be done.
And nothing was done.
Meanwhile, Israel's propaganda machine, no doubt the best in the world, leapt into overdrive.
It accused Palestinians of deliberatley exaggerating the numbers dead, irregardless of the obvious fact that the iDF was claiming at one point that 300 were killed, changing it at will to "that included the dead and wounded", etc., until by the time the dust settled, as they say, a handful of people were slaughtered, only a couple of civilians, and the rest were "combatants", and that the Palestinians had actually blown up their own homes, buildings, etc., etc.
The US media, eager to join in the action, was having a smashing time ascusing the Palestinians of screaming "massacre" when obviously, they said, there hadn't been one (says who??)
Fifty-two (???) people does not a massacre (???) make, they said.
Meanwhile, what was the UN going to do? It hadn't been permitted access in a timely manner to examine the real situation in Jenin unlike AI and HRW who at least got delegates to the site. Resolution 1403 was effectivelky strangled by Israel, aided and abetted by the US.
But wait! The Arab members of the Security Council were not exactly cheering from the sidelines with glee at the events unfolding before them. Their much stronger resolution had been trampled on in backroom wrangling by the US (to avoid a veto), a much watered down document had been adopted, then demolished by Israel. Isn't the UN going to do
anything with respect to Jenin, they asked?
Thus, the "Report".
It is highly imperative to bear in mind that this was NOT an investigative UN "report" into the events at Jenin.
In fact, we are told from the outset that none of the authors visited Jenin, and that any, and all, items in the "report" were gleaned from sources already public knowledge.
While Palestinian officials abided by the request to assist in providing documentation, etc., Israel refused to acknolwedge same, and continued its propaganda campaign to minimize the atrocities that were Jenin and to maximize its position that the residents of Jenin were untrustworhty, unreliable witnesses, prone to exaggerations and falsehoods. The US media lapped it up.
Therefore when the "report" of Kofi Annan was released on 1 August 2002 (having been presented to Israel and Palestine officials prior to) the most astonishing reaction took place on the part of Israel.
It immediately read the report as clearing it of any, and all, wrongdoing in Jenin, and its misleading headlines "no massacre" reverberated universally. It was another brilliant piece of Israelian propagranda..
However, to those of us who have read the "report" (and we have numerous times) one aspect is significant. It does not mention the word "MASSACRE" anywhere. In fact, the only time the word is mentioned is in one of the appendices to the Palestinian documentation submitted to the UN as requested.
Yet Israel, who had killed the mandated resolution of the UNSC had the nerve to take this "report" and use it to their own advantage.
Hardly, however, a coup.
What the report was, however, was a mere rewriting of information already on public record by aid workers, the HRW, AI, and eye witnesses, which, if you were a Palestinian eye witness, your comments, according to Israel, didn't bear repeating.
The "report" contained the same trite phrases, signifying nothing at all. It tiptoed around real issues, for instance, the blatant war crimes commmitted against the peoples of Jenin, and which had been documented by Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch. I note these war crimes have been totally shoved under the proverbial rug as if they never were!
As I said earlier, the "report" gave a cautious rehash of what we already knew; a report containing no conclusions, no recommendations, the result, of course, of Mr. Annan having his hands effectively tied.
"A full.and comprehensive report on recent events in Jenin, as well as in other Palestinian cities, could not be made without the cooperation of both parties and a visit to the area. I would, therefore, not wish to go beyond the very limited finding of facts which are set out in the body of the text", writes Mr. Annan.
Which begged the question, and some reporters asked same, why did he bother?
We're still asking that same question 15 months later as we try to get beyond the lies and cover ups to the reat truth.
It doesn't give us any new evidence, shed new light on the incident, and gives no concluisons about what transpired.
One of the most accurate assessments of the "report", however, came from Ali Abunimah, writing for the Electronic Intifada, on 1 August 2002 when he stated:
"To the Israelis it provided another propoganda coup with misleading headlines clearing it of any wrongdoing;
To Kofi Annan and the UN it provides a welcome end to an embarrassing and potentially awkward chapter;
To the Palestinians it proves yet again that for Israel, impunity, not law, is the rule".
NOTE: As I stated here several days ago, this is my project. If you don't like it, find your own massacre.
As the Israeli forces continued its foray into the Jenin refugee camp from April 3 to April 12, 02, reports were being transmitted daily to the UN from Commissioner General Peter Hansen, UNRWA, detailing the atrocities.
On April 7th he stated that the Israeli forces had turned Jenin "into a hellish battlefield". On April l0th, he reported "catastrophic conditions", and on April 16th, Mr. Hansen described "monumental destruction".
So, in reality, the first and most damaging reports with respect to the atrocities occurring in Jenin were not from the Palestinians, themselves, but from the UN's own agency.
In an effort to give the impressoin, at least, that it was doing something about Jenin, as the anger towards Israel grew in intensity, the UNSC adopted a US worded resolution 15-0, a resolutioni which welcomed Colin Powell's trip to the region, and the setting up of an investigative team to travel to Jenin, report on the horrors therein, present its findings to the UNSC,and inform the public as expeditiously as possible.
All very noble except this watered down resolution was put forth to ensure that the much tougher one by the Arab members of the UNSC would fail. Their version called for a multinational force to be sent to the area to protect the Palestinian peoples.
So armed with resolution 1403, Mr. Annan et al appointed an investigative team to travel to Jenin.
Everything was rolling along as it should until shortly after the composition of the team was announced. It was then that Israel, who had welcomed the US worded resolution, began the first of what would continue to be more and more outrageous demands.
Let's take a look at some of them, shall we?
a) that the investigative team include anti-terorrist "experts" who would examine the scene from a military point of view;
b) that any investigative report would not produce findings that may be used to prosecute Israeli soldiers for war crimes;
c) that Israel would determine the documentation, if any, the Investigative team would look at; and which witnesses to question;
d) that the report be limited to "fact finding"; and,
e) that it could not produce any general conclusions and/or recommendations
So, in other words, we marvelled at the time, why would the UN bother?
Kofi Annan was bending backwards and forwards to acquiesce with these demands, and each time an issue was resolved in Israel's favour, another would come up. Meanwhile, there was the investigative team hanging around in Geneva waiting for word to head on to the Occupied Territories.
That word never came. Israeli continued its stalling tactics whilst in Jenin the evidence was growing cold, and the horror stories were becoming secondary to the charade of Israel v. the UN.
Finally, faced with no other choice, on May 3rd, 2002, Kofi Annan announced, with the urging of the US, that the team was disbanded. We were all left marvelling at how Israel, with "nothing to hide" had so efficiently and effecively ensured that nothing would be done.
And nothing was done.
Meanwhile, Israel's propaganda machine, no doubt the best in the world, leapt into overdrive.
It accused Palestinians of deliberatley exaggerating the numbers dead, irregardless of the obvious fact that the iDF was claiming at one point that 300 were killed, changing it at will to "that included the dead and wounded", etc., until by the time the dust settled, as they say, a handful of people were slaughtered, only a couple of civilians, and the rest were "combatants", and that the Palestinians had actually blown up their own homes, buildings, etc., etc.
The US media, eager to join in the action, was having a smashing time ascusing the Palestinians of screaming "massacre" when obviously, they said, there hadn't been one (says who??)
Fifty-two (???) people does not a massacre (???) make, they said.
Meanwhile, what was the UN going to do? It hadn't been permitted access in a timely manner to examine the real situation in Jenin unlike AI and HRW who at least got delegates to the site. Resolution 1403 was effectivelky strangled by Israel, aided and abetted by the US.
But wait! The Arab members of the Security Council were not exactly cheering from the sidelines with glee at the events unfolding before them. Their much stronger resolution had been trampled on in backroom wrangling by the US (to avoid a veto), a much watered down document had been adopted, then demolished by Israel. Isn't the UN going to do
anything with respect to Jenin, they asked?
Thus, the "Report".
It is highly imperative to bear in mind that this was NOT an investigative UN "report" into the events at Jenin.
In fact, we are told from the outset that none of the authors visited Jenin, and that any, and all, items in the "report" were gleaned from sources already public knowledge.
While Palestinian officials abided by the request to assist in providing documentation, etc., Israel refused to acknolwedge same, and continued its propaganda campaign to minimize the atrocities that were Jenin and to maximize its position that the residents of Jenin were untrustworhty, unreliable witnesses, prone to exaggerations and falsehoods. The US media lapped it up.
Therefore when the "report" of Kofi Annan was released on 1 August 2002 (having been presented to Israel and Palestine officials prior to) the most astonishing reaction took place on the part of Israel.
It immediately read the report as clearing it of any, and all, wrongdoing in Jenin, and its misleading headlines "no massacre" reverberated universally. It was another brilliant piece of Israelian propagranda..
However, to those of us who have read the "report" (and we have numerous times) one aspect is significant. It does not mention the word "MASSACRE" anywhere. In fact, the only time the word is mentioned is in one of the appendices to the Palestinian documentation submitted to the UN as requested.
Yet Israel, who had killed the mandated resolution of the UNSC had the nerve to take this "report" and use it to their own advantage.
Hardly, however, a coup.
What the report was, however, was a mere rewriting of information already on public record by aid workers, the HRW, AI, and eye witnesses, which, if you were a Palestinian eye witness, your comments, according to Israel, didn't bear repeating.
The "report" contained the same trite phrases, signifying nothing at all. It tiptoed around real issues, for instance, the blatant war crimes commmitted against the peoples of Jenin, and which had been documented by Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch. I note these war crimes have been totally shoved under the proverbial rug as if they never were!
As I said earlier, the "report" gave a cautious rehash of what we already knew; a report containing no conclusions, no recommendations, the result, of course, of Mr. Annan having his hands effectively tied.
"A full.and comprehensive report on recent events in Jenin, as well as in other Palestinian cities, could not be made without the cooperation of both parties and a visit to the area. I would, therefore, not wish to go beyond the very limited finding of facts which are set out in the body of the text", writes Mr. Annan.
Which begged the question, and some reporters asked same, why did he bother?
We're still asking that same question 15 months later as we try to get beyond the lies and cover ups to the reat truth.
It doesn't give us any new evidence, shed new light on the incident, and gives no concluisons about what transpired.
One of the most accurate assessments of the "report", however, came from Ali Abunimah, writing for the Electronic Intifada, on 1 August 2002 when he stated:
"To the Israelis it provided another propoganda coup with misleading headlines clearing it of any wrongdoing;
To Kofi Annan and the UN it provides a welcome end to an embarrassing and potentially awkward chapter;
To the Palestinians it proves yet again that for Israel, impunity, not law, is the rule".
NOTE: As I stated here several days ago, this is my project. If you don't like it, find your own massacre.
BRAVO ANGIE BRAVO
Angie apparently has dibbs on jenin.
I guess the next step is where people start to actually "wish there was a massacare" because "that would teach those israelis!" Like a hamas member who sees an attack as producing lots of happy martyers and some really good propoganda.
The sad thing is that the leftists on here are like the soviets before the 1967 war (From !'s resource). they can say alot of things and pretend that they know what they are talking about but if anyone listens to them at all it will only serve to make them believe some fake massacare occured they will want to attack israel and they will be defeated.
A lot of people will die and we won't be any closer to a solution.
Strangely some people do listen. it is interesting to see how some leaders like sadam would start saying lines out of (for example) fisk's playbook. they look to liberal media sources for "politically acceptible" reasons for hating the US or whoever .
I guess the next step is where people start to actually "wish there was a massacare" because "that would teach those israelis!" Like a hamas member who sees an attack as producing lots of happy martyers and some really good propoganda.
The sad thing is that the leftists on here are like the soviets before the 1967 war (From !'s resource). they can say alot of things and pretend that they know what they are talking about but if anyone listens to them at all it will only serve to make them believe some fake massacare occured they will want to attack israel and they will be defeated.
A lot of people will die and we won't be any closer to a solution.
Strangely some people do listen. it is interesting to see how some leaders like sadam would start saying lines out of (for example) fisk's playbook. they look to liberal media sources for "politically acceptible" reasons for hating the US or whoever .
as Palestinians openly engage in terrorism it has proven its self an out law state and not capable of self rule. above and beyond that fact, Palestine is not a real country. is occupies Israeli land. which nullifies their claim to being at war. this makes the p.l.o. and Palestinians collaborators international criminals.
each time peace is offered you refuse and start a homicidal bombing spree. this goes beyond your claim to peace of wanting land, land that once was Palestine is not located anywhere near Israel.
why does Palestine (the country that does not exist) START every conflict they have had with Israel when pretend to play the marter?
Jenin is only the beginning. As I stated here several days ago, by the time I'm finished with Israeli massacres, you'll be seeing them in your sleep.
I've had enough of this garbage that there was no Deir Yassen, no Sabra Shattila, no Jenin. And all the ones in between.
Incidentally did you know that the Jerusalem Post, hardly a beacon of objectivity, considers any more than four deaths a "massacre"? No, probably not.
I've had enough of this garbage that there was no Deir Yassen, no Sabra Shattila, no Jenin. And all the ones in between.
Incidentally did you know that the Jerusalem Post, hardly a beacon of objectivity, considers any more than four deaths a "massacre"? No, probably not.
"Incidentally did you know that the Jerusalem Post, hardly a beacon of objectivity, considers any more than four deaths a "massacre"? No, probably not."
Well, I for one did not know that. Is that policy stated on their "about us" page or did you have to be more investigative to uncover this little factoid? If more than four people die in a car accident or plane crash, does the JP report it as a massacre?
I actually never thought to base the definition of "massacre" on numbers. I guess I always thought of a massacre is a wanton slaughter of unarmed and unthreatening people for no reason except for the sheer killing of it.
For example. Man walks into a home or school spraying an ak47 at anyone in sight: massacre. Killing a hundred armed men because they spent the previous morning firing rockets and mortars at your mother's house: not a massacre.
If I understand you right, you're going to read a whole lot in your warm comfy library and report here what you think?
Good for you.
Well, I for one did not know that. Is that policy stated on their "about us" page or did you have to be more investigative to uncover this little factoid? If more than four people die in a car accident or plane crash, does the JP report it as a massacre?
I actually never thought to base the definition of "massacre" on numbers. I guess I always thought of a massacre is a wanton slaughter of unarmed and unthreatening people for no reason except for the sheer killing of it.
For example. Man walks into a home or school spraying an ak47 at anyone in sight: massacre. Killing a hundred armed men because they spent the previous morning firing rockets and mortars at your mother's house: not a massacre.
If I understand you right, you're going to read a whole lot in your warm comfy library and report here what you think?
Good for you.
mas·sa·cre Audio pronunciation of Massacre ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ms-kr)
n.
1. The act or an instance of killing a large number of humans indiscriminately and cruelly.
2. The slaughter of a large number of animals.
3. Informal. A severe defeat, as in a sports event.
Probably we are refering to (1)
note the "indiscrinatly and "large number part. therefore the J post is using the english language liberaly if it considers 4 to be a large number however you are also using the english language liberally if you consider Israels actions to be "indiscriminate.
Also
also
". The killing of a considerable number of human beings under circumstances of atrocity or cruelty, or contrary to the usages of civilized people; as, the massacre on St. Bartholomew's Day."
For example the presence of israeli medical staff treating injured hamas agents implies that the above definition is more closely applicable to terrorist actions than to israels actions.
However our difference of opinion on whether it is a massacare is reduced back down to our basic disagreement over whether israel's move into jenin and its existance in itself represent a "atrocity or cruelty, or contrary to the usages of civilized people" or whether it did not meet that standard.
If you are looking for an objective analysis of that the world as a whole and the apropriate institutions do not appear to agree with your position but you will presumably still insist on keeping hte term as a subjective term.
n.
1. The act or an instance of killing a large number of humans indiscriminately and cruelly.
2. The slaughter of a large number of animals.
3. Informal. A severe defeat, as in a sports event.
Probably we are refering to (1)
note the "indiscrinatly and "large number part. therefore the J post is using the english language liberaly if it considers 4 to be a large number however you are also using the english language liberally if you consider Israels actions to be "indiscriminate.
Also
also
". The killing of a considerable number of human beings under circumstances of atrocity or cruelty, or contrary to the usages of civilized people; as, the massacre on St. Bartholomew's Day."
For example the presence of israeli medical staff treating injured hamas agents implies that the above definition is more closely applicable to terrorist actions than to israels actions.
However our difference of opinion on whether it is a massacare is reduced back down to our basic disagreement over whether israel's move into jenin and its existance in itself represent a "atrocity or cruelty, or contrary to the usages of civilized people" or whether it did not meet that standard.
If you are looking for an objective analysis of that the world as a whole and the apropriate institutions do not appear to agree with your position but you will presumably still insist on keeping hte term as a subjective term.
If numbers were the base line here, there would not be a Boston Massacre (five dead), etc.
Perhaps you can enlighten me as to why it would have become an issue here?
A massacre of any other name, perhaps?
No matter. It certainly served as a great detractor, didn't it?
Perhaps you can enlighten me as to why it would have become an issue here?
A massacre of any other name, perhaps?
No matter. It certainly served as a great detractor, didn't it?
Ye'ah, Scottie, and I suppose that's why the IDF shot down the nurse who tried to help a young Palestinian whose only crime was looking out his door, or the wheelchair bound chap shot and run over by a tank, and I suppose that's also the reason why a 14 and a 15 year old were killed, one for going to pick up groceries, the other because he thought he'd walk through the camp. Or the wounded "militant" (so called) who had dragged himself almost to the hospital, begging for help, and was shot by the IDF for his efforts.
I did not bring that up as an argument angie I brought it up as a possible way of indicating "what is a massacare" I am fully aware tht israel might use it to describe a suicide bombing and by that edefinition it may or may not be a correct usage of the word (not that it matters all that much)
therefore you are shooting at nothing with your agumentative points.
"Ye'ah, Scottie, and I suppose that's why the IDF shot down the nurse who tried to help a young Palestinian whose only crime was looking out his door"
And on what grounds do you make that accusation? what evidence do you have? If the event actually occured - have you considered the soldiers defense?
These stories always pop up in these sorts of situations or any other event where one side wants to demonize the other. That is why they ae worthless without some sort of eidence.
", or the wheelchair bound chap shot and run over by a tank, and I suppose that's also the reason why a 14 and a 15 year old were killed, one for going to pick up groceries, the other because he thought he'd walk through the camp."
Same as above.
" Or the wounded "militant" (so called) who had dragged himself almost to the hospital, begging for help, and was shot by the IDF for his efforts. "
We have the testomony of a IDf doctor that they did actually treat "militants" (no need to say "so called" since they were tatooed).
Now where are you getting your case studies from?
You are probably swallowing propoganda.
therefore you are shooting at nothing with your agumentative points.
"Ye'ah, Scottie, and I suppose that's why the IDF shot down the nurse who tried to help a young Palestinian whose only crime was looking out his door"
And on what grounds do you make that accusation? what evidence do you have? If the event actually occured - have you considered the soldiers defense?
These stories always pop up in these sorts of situations or any other event where one side wants to demonize the other. That is why they ae worthless without some sort of eidence.
", or the wheelchair bound chap shot and run over by a tank, and I suppose that's also the reason why a 14 and a 15 year old were killed, one for going to pick up groceries, the other because he thought he'd walk through the camp."
Same as above.
" Or the wounded "militant" (so called) who had dragged himself almost to the hospital, begging for help, and was shot by the IDF for his efforts. "
We have the testomony of a IDf doctor that they did actually treat "militants" (no need to say "so called" since they were tatooed).
Now where are you getting your case studies from?
You are probably swallowing propoganda.
I am troubled that Angie equates Deir Yassin and Sabra & Shatilla with Jenin. It makes me wonder if those allegations of a massacre are as inaccurate as what has obviously been shown a false cry with respect to Jenin.
She's delusional. She claims jenin was some horrible massacre, even though everyone knows it wasn't, and when you correct her and try to force her to deal with reality, she claims people are saying there was "no Jenin."
That's the problem with these RABID israel-haters. They refuse to deal with reality. They have these fantasies and these exaggerations, and some facts, and they mix them all together, and when you try to straighten them out by removing their bullshit and dealing with reality and an accurate perspective, they accuse you of claiming "nothing happened" as if you just denied the holocaust or something.
It's a fact that was lots of fighting in jenin. There was no "massacre." 50something palestinians, most of whom were armed hamas fighters, and 20something israelis, most of whom were armed soldiers, died, in armed fighting. Israel is better armed and more organized, so Israel did better. The claims of "hundreds massacred" is a lie that was told to the media early on, but when even hamas militants confirmed it was an armed fight on both sides, all rational and educated people disgarded the absurd "massacre" claims.
But, the problem is that the RABID israel-haters out there believe 100% of the worst claims against israel, deny 100% of the opposite, and go right ahead and spread their nonsense as much as possible. They're on a mission to distort reality, and because they're so dedicated to their loserness, it's working, and the average ignorant person who doesn't know any better is believing it.
It's SAD... PATHETIC, actually, that the jenin fightins, where just 50something palestinians died in heated combat, is probably literally a million times more famous than HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS dying in actual TRUE massacres in Africa these last two years.
But, Israel will always be held under an ABSURD microscope that is never applied to the rest of the world.
It's up to HONEST and EDUCATED people to refute angie and the obsessed, rabid anti-zionist freaks out there who are on a mission and have a very evil hidden agenda.
That's the problem with these RABID israel-haters. They refuse to deal with reality. They have these fantasies and these exaggerations, and some facts, and they mix them all together, and when you try to straighten them out by removing their bullshit and dealing with reality and an accurate perspective, they accuse you of claiming "nothing happened" as if you just denied the holocaust or something.
It's a fact that was lots of fighting in jenin. There was no "massacre." 50something palestinians, most of whom were armed hamas fighters, and 20something israelis, most of whom were armed soldiers, died, in armed fighting. Israel is better armed and more organized, so Israel did better. The claims of "hundreds massacred" is a lie that was told to the media early on, but when even hamas militants confirmed it was an armed fight on both sides, all rational and educated people disgarded the absurd "massacre" claims.
But, the problem is that the RABID israel-haters out there believe 100% of the worst claims against israel, deny 100% of the opposite, and go right ahead and spread their nonsense as much as possible. They're on a mission to distort reality, and because they're so dedicated to their loserness, it's working, and the average ignorant person who doesn't know any better is believing it.
It's SAD... PATHETIC, actually, that the jenin fightins, where just 50something palestinians died in heated combat, is probably literally a million times more famous than HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS dying in actual TRUE massacres in Africa these last two years.
But, Israel will always be held under an ABSURD microscope that is never applied to the rest of the world.
It's up to HONEST and EDUCATED people to refute angie and the obsessed, rabid anti-zionist freaks out there who are on a mission and have a very evil hidden agenda.
Who is believing propaganda, Scottie? I'm quoting the AI reports and the HRW reports. Surely you are not saying that everything pointed out by those other than Israeli forces is not correct?
I mean, after all, who was responsible for keeping the media and humitarian aid from the camp for several days, even after the "fighting" ended? And who ensured that the fact finding team would be rendered useless?
I know one damn thing for certain. It wasn't me!
I mean, after all, who was responsible for keeping the media and humitarian aid from the camp for several days, even after the "fighting" ended? And who ensured that the fact finding team would be rendered useless?
I know one damn thing for certain. It wasn't me!
Whenever anyone mentions your beloved little Israel , oh, how awful we are! Off with their heads, etc., etc.
With Jenin, oh, look! Only fifty something people, most of them armed, blah, blah, blah.
Minimize the realities of Jenin (and all the other massacres) , maximize "other" regions of the world where suffering also exists. It's one of the oldest tricks in recent years, isn't it? And Israeli supporters do it SO WELL.
And maybe if we are dealing with a "massacre" originating in some other part of the world here on this Board we will look at that. However, this thread is about Jenin, and, as I 've stated, if you don't like it, find your own massacre.
With Jenin, oh, look! Only fifty something people, most of them armed, blah, blah, blah.
Minimize the realities of Jenin (and all the other massacres) , maximize "other" regions of the world where suffering also exists. It's one of the oldest tricks in recent years, isn't it? And Israeli supporters do it SO WELL.
And maybe if we are dealing with a "massacre" originating in some other part of the world here on this Board we will look at that. However, this thread is about Jenin, and, as I 've stated, if you don't like it, find your own massacre.
Haha now when it is convenient you believe HRW
how many people did they identify as being killed????
Go on...
Take a guess..
" Human Rights Watch identified fifty-two Palestinians who were killed during the operation, of whom twenty-two were civilians. "
Who would have guess.. we certainly all did.
Besides that you have intentionally stated the facts in order to forward your cause.
the young palistinian (whose only crime was looking out his door) who came out of his gate was aged 19 (not 5 or 14) there was also already action going outside and he came out to see what was going on according to his mother. errr.. go out into the street where there is gunfire to see what is going on??
anyway this is as far as i can tell all according to the evidence of the mother of the boy. However since she would not have been on the street and the IDF were under cover some distance down the road I dont see how without ballistics analysis she would have been able to determine if IDF or resistance fighters (cross fire) had shot her child. The body was quickly burried near the hospital. The mother also suggested that the 19 year old (who seemed so eager to check out a battle scene) was not a militant.
The wheelchair bound chap shot and run over by a tank,
-this is all second hand evidence from people who didnt even see the actual event since it happened during curfew. First hand evidence should be available from the IDF. Interestingly the body was not found with the wheelchair.
the 14 yr old was killed by some IDF soldiers. Interestingly he told the witness to go home when the IDF tank turned towards them he again to dld the witness to go home. This was a period in which the curfew was lifted. witness made a point to say that they did not throw stones.
I can say almost for certain that Hamas or other organizations are operating in palestine intentionally encouraging people to lie to media and HRW type people. A more obvious example is one where they took a reporter to see a killed civilian who jsut happened to have a pipe bomb hidden under his coat..
The point being that you accept as fact things like
" whose only crime was looking out his door"
and make obviously ridiculous comments like
"for going to pick up groceries" when at the time EVERYONE was going to pick up groceries.. it was a temporary curfew break! If your statement was true it would have been a blood bath.
You put quotation marks around the word "militant" despite the fact that all involved accept that he was a militant and a combatant.
But think if an organization within jenin fabricated that evidence how would you know?
" Surely you are not saying that everything pointed out by those other than Israeli forces is not correct?"
- I am saying that it is not all true either.
how many people did they identify as being killed????
Go on...
Take a guess..
" Human Rights Watch identified fifty-two Palestinians who were killed during the operation, of whom twenty-two were civilians. "
Who would have guess.. we certainly all did.
Besides that you have intentionally stated the facts in order to forward your cause.
the young palistinian (whose only crime was looking out his door) who came out of his gate was aged 19 (not 5 or 14) there was also already action going outside and he came out to see what was going on according to his mother. errr.. go out into the street where there is gunfire to see what is going on??
anyway this is as far as i can tell all according to the evidence of the mother of the boy. However since she would not have been on the street and the IDF were under cover some distance down the road I dont see how without ballistics analysis she would have been able to determine if IDF or resistance fighters (cross fire) had shot her child. The body was quickly burried near the hospital. The mother also suggested that the 19 year old (who seemed so eager to check out a battle scene) was not a militant.
The wheelchair bound chap shot and run over by a tank,
-this is all second hand evidence from people who didnt even see the actual event since it happened during curfew. First hand evidence should be available from the IDF. Interestingly the body was not found with the wheelchair.
the 14 yr old was killed by some IDF soldiers. Interestingly he told the witness to go home when the IDF tank turned towards them he again to dld the witness to go home. This was a period in which the curfew was lifted. witness made a point to say that they did not throw stones.
I can say almost for certain that Hamas or other organizations are operating in palestine intentionally encouraging people to lie to media and HRW type people. A more obvious example is one where they took a reporter to see a killed civilian who jsut happened to have a pipe bomb hidden under his coat..
The point being that you accept as fact things like
" whose only crime was looking out his door"
and make obviously ridiculous comments like
"for going to pick up groceries" when at the time EVERYONE was going to pick up groceries.. it was a temporary curfew break! If your statement was true it would have been a blood bath.
You put quotation marks around the word "militant" despite the fact that all involved accept that he was a militant and a combatant.
But think if an organization within jenin fabricated that evidence how would you know?
" Surely you are not saying that everything pointed out by those other than Israeli forces is not correct?"
- I am saying that it is not all true either.
> I'm quoting the AI reports and the HRW reports
Yet both those organizations (and the UN) say that there was NO MASSACRE. As "!" herself quoted:
|| Human Rights Watch found no evidence to sustain claims of massacres or large-scale extrajudicial executions by the IDF in Jenin
Why do you ignore that and insist that in claiming there was a massacre you are quoting HRW?
Sounds like you work in Orwell's "Ministry of Truth".
> Minimize the realities of Jenin (and all the other massacres) , maximize "other" regions of the world where suffering also exists. It's one of the oldest tricks
Guffaw. This is your "trick". Maximize the lies of Jenin -- to the point that some have claimed that this was one of the worst things in recent times -- while minimizing all else (such as the massacre of 3.5 million people in the Congo) in an attempt to support the absurd claim.
Why is it that Angie continues to preach her talking points but can't be bothered to respond when people point out obvious errors and inherent contradictions?
> The report put the total number of dead at 52.... However, it does not take into account all the variables. such as those buried in their homes under the rubble, or those whose bodies may have been removed....
That's because no bodies were removed and (contrary to your propaganda) very few bodies were found burried in the rubble! And those were included in the body count. Again:
*** NO ONE IS LISTED AS MISSING! ***
The residents of Jenin have all been accounted for. Who were these absent dead bodies? Space Aliens?
Angie won't address these points because she can't.
They expose her litany of lies.
Thus she'll just enter new lies.
Just watch....
Yet both those organizations (and the UN) say that there was NO MASSACRE. As "!" herself quoted:
|| Human Rights Watch found no evidence to sustain claims of massacres or large-scale extrajudicial executions by the IDF in Jenin
Why do you ignore that and insist that in claiming there was a massacre you are quoting HRW?
Sounds like you work in Orwell's "Ministry of Truth".
> Minimize the realities of Jenin (and all the other massacres) , maximize "other" regions of the world where suffering also exists. It's one of the oldest tricks
Guffaw. This is your "trick". Maximize the lies of Jenin -- to the point that some have claimed that this was one of the worst things in recent times -- while minimizing all else (such as the massacre of 3.5 million people in the Congo) in an attempt to support the absurd claim.
Why is it that Angie continues to preach her talking points but can't be bothered to respond when people point out obvious errors and inherent contradictions?
> The report put the total number of dead at 52.... However, it does not take into account all the variables. such as those buried in their homes under the rubble, or those whose bodies may have been removed....
That's because no bodies were removed and (contrary to your propaganda) very few bodies were found burried in the rubble! And those were included in the body count. Again:
*** NO ONE IS LISTED AS MISSING! ***
The residents of Jenin have all been accounted for. Who were these absent dead bodies? Space Aliens?
Angie won't address these points because she can't.
They expose her litany of lies.
Thus she'll just enter new lies.
Just watch....
I love you scottie
you're my love
you're my love
IMC reporter Kevin Skvorack got into the camp as Israeli troops, tanks and bulldozers withdrew. His camera records the destruction of lives and homes.
VIDEO:
http://www.freespeech.org/fsitv/ramfiles/fstvnews061602.ram
VIDEO:
http://www.freespeech.org/fsitv/ramfiles/fstvnews061602.ram
>There was no "massacre." 50something palestinians, most of whom were armed hamas fighters, and 20something israelis, most of whom were armed soldiers, died, in armed fighting.
What are you saying here, that if the victims fight back, it's not a massacre?
What happened to Custer and his men at Little Big Horn then?
What are you saying here, that if the victims fight back, it's not a massacre?
What happened to Custer and his men at Little Big Horn then?
Kurdi, the Israeli bulldozer admitted in an interview that his goal was to make a soccer stadium out of the camp.
He simply crushed entire structures, not giving heed to the residents within.
Finally, he did manage to make a soccer stadium out of the camp but burried hundreds if not thousands of civilians under his rubble.
He simply crushed entire structures, not giving heed to the residents within.
Finally, he did manage to make a soccer stadium out of the camp but burried hundreds if not thousands of civilians under his rubble.
The myth about Jenin and whether there was, or was not, a "massacre" is simply used now, as it was fifteen months ago, to detract from the realities of what occurred in that tragic place.
When a "massacre" or "not a massacre" is being discussed, you see, no one is paying any attention to the war crimes etc. that were brought to the attentiion of the public by HRW and A1.
And if that doesn't work, well, then, the next best thing is to belittle and malign and vilify the person (or persons) looking for justice and truth.
When a "massacre" or "not a massacre" is being discussed, you see, no one is paying any attention to the war crimes etc. that were brought to the attentiion of the public by HRW and A1.
And if that doesn't work, well, then, the next best thing is to belittle and malign and vilify the person (or persons) looking for justice and truth.
It becomes a massacare unde the definition above IF the attacking side breaches moral standards in its atack for example refusing to take prisoners.
Wondering> What happened to Custer and his men at Little Big Horn then?
Custer and his men were killed after they were defeated, in a "take-no-prisoners" battle. That's what made it a massacre.
Truth!> burried hundreds if not thousands of civilians under his rubble.
Except that only 52 bodies were found and no one is missing.
Of these dead, most were armed fighters. As senior PA security sources told Time magazine, of those few civilians crushed in their own homes, most were likely victims of terrorist bombs (some as large as 250 pounds). The Israel D9 bulldozers take half-an-hour to destroy a structure, allowing plenty of time for residents, if they failed to heed initial warnings, to exit the building before its collapse. A large bomb, on the other hand, can make a building collapse in seconds.
Custer and his men were killed after they were defeated, in a "take-no-prisoners" battle. That's what made it a massacre.
Truth!> burried hundreds if not thousands of civilians under his rubble.
Except that only 52 bodies were found and no one is missing.
Of these dead, most were armed fighters. As senior PA security sources told Time magazine, of those few civilians crushed in their own homes, most were likely victims of terrorist bombs (some as large as 250 pounds). The Israel D9 bulldozers take half-an-hour to destroy a structure, allowing plenty of time for residents, if they failed to heed initial warnings, to exit the building before its collapse. A large bomb, on the other hand, can make a building collapse in seconds.
"The myth about Jenin and whether there was, or was not, a "massacre" is simply used now, as it was fifteen months ago, to detract from the realities of what occurred in that tragic place."
If you lie or mislead we will call you on it. Sure the events could be looked into. maybe they have been. But why is it essential to go through all the actions of israel and israel alone with a fine tooth comb in an attempt to find crimes when these crimes are happening in their millions in other countries.Sure investigate but dont hold israel to a higher standard than anyone else.
"Finally, he did manage to make a soccer stadium out of the camp but burried hundreds if not thousands of civilians under his rubble."
A) exageration
B) contradicts the evidence
"And if that doesn't work, well, then, the next best thing is to belittle and malign and vilify the person (or persons) looking for justice and truth. "
- No we dont belittle each other. If you get "belittled it is probably because you are not seeking justice and truth (or are blind to it when it is sitting in your face).
If you lie or mislead we will call you on it. Sure the events could be looked into. maybe they have been. But why is it essential to go through all the actions of israel and israel alone with a fine tooth comb in an attempt to find crimes when these crimes are happening in their millions in other countries.Sure investigate but dont hold israel to a higher standard than anyone else.
"Finally, he did manage to make a soccer stadium out of the camp but burried hundreds if not thousands of civilians under his rubble."
A) exageration
B) contradicts the evidence
"And if that doesn't work, well, then, the next best thing is to belittle and malign and vilify the person (or persons) looking for justice and truth. "
- No we dont belittle each other. If you get "belittled it is probably because you are not seeking justice and truth (or are blind to it when it is sitting in your face).
I guess it depends on what truth means, whether it's sitting in my face or not, or whether it's walking on both legs. In this case, it's not even hobbling on crutches.
The truth with respect to Jenin has been hard to come by. I suppose after seeing what happened to Roed-Larsen (vilification, character assassination, death treats to him and his family, etc.) I'm surprised anyone would want to be bothered. Blessedly there are those out there who don't give a good damn what deterrence is used to block the truth. I happen to be one of them, and you can carry on, Scottie, with your own blind version of facts. Whatever makes you happy, etc., etc.
The truth with respect to Jenin has been hard to come by. I suppose after seeing what happened to Roed-Larsen (vilification, character assassination, death treats to him and his family, etc.) I'm surprised anyone would want to be bothered. Blessedly there are those out there who don't give a good damn what deterrence is used to block the truth. I happen to be one of them, and you can carry on, Scottie, with your own blind version of facts. Whatever makes you happy, etc., etc.
Israel is an occupying power, and like all occupying powers, it abuses, kills, and distorts.
Israel has to get out of the occupied territories. Period.
That said, i find myself agreeing with scotty when he goes up against angie. One would think listening to Angie that Israel is the only human rights abuser in the middle east, the only state that deserves TO BE OVERTHROWN.
How many posts has Angie made in the last couple months in which she alludes to all the outstanding research and study she's pursuing but gives the reader NO new information to munch on? Her nutrient-free posts have grown soooo tiresome....
Israel has to get out of the occupied territories. Period.
That said, i find myself agreeing with scotty when he goes up against angie. One would think listening to Angie that Israel is the only human rights abuser in the middle east, the only state that deserves TO BE OVERTHROWN.
How many posts has Angie made in the last couple months in which she alludes to all the outstanding research and study she's pursuing but gives the reader NO new information to munch on? Her nutrient-free posts have grown soooo tiresome....
I appreciate your comments.
I am disappointed, however. Strange, I always thought you were above all of this.
Being wrong about people hurts sometimes, and this is definitely one of those times.
I am disappointed, however. Strange, I always thought you were above all of this.
Being wrong about people hurts sometimes, and this is definitely one of those times.
Her nutrient-free posts have grown soooo tiresome....
HOW TRUE -
HOW TRUE -
you have stated before that no Jew has ever crossed your Gentile path.
How come you have abandoned your gentile brethren to occupy the time defending the very government that has expelled them?
you must be one of those self hating gentile...
How come you have abandoned your gentile brethren to occupy the time defending the very government that has expelled them?
you must be one of those self hating gentile...
"The truth with respect to Jenin has been hard to come by."
- look at the HRW report you have their names and the situations in which their relatives said they died their ages etc. if you asked HRW you could probably get their parents and children’s names. I would not call that hard to come by.
"Blessedly there are those out there who don't give a good damn what deterrence is used to block the truth. I happen to be one of them."
Frankly you are not... You are exactly what you are trying to oppose.
Aaron
"Israel is an occupying power, and like all occupying powers, it abuses, kills, and distorts."
Propaganda of course comes from both sides.
"Israel has to get out of the occupied territories. Period."
- We are trying to arrange that. Just a matter of how to do it..
Angie's post
"I am disappointed, however. Strange, I always thought you were above all of this."
Angie again takes any criticism (however constructive) personally.
CZ
You have stated before that no Jew has ever crossed your Gentile path.
- They have I just said that I don’t know any personally (I have met some superficially)
"How come you have abandoned your gentile brethren to occupy the time defending the very government that has expelled them?"
- This betrays a twisted mindset where people are divided into "Jews" and "not Jews". There is no reason why I should have allegiance to Jews or any other group in Israel.
"You must be one of those self hating gentile..."
- does not follow
- look at the HRW report you have their names and the situations in which their relatives said they died their ages etc. if you asked HRW you could probably get their parents and children’s names. I would not call that hard to come by.
"Blessedly there are those out there who don't give a good damn what deterrence is used to block the truth. I happen to be one of them."
Frankly you are not... You are exactly what you are trying to oppose.
Aaron
"Israel is an occupying power, and like all occupying powers, it abuses, kills, and distorts."
Propaganda of course comes from both sides.
"Israel has to get out of the occupied territories. Period."
- We are trying to arrange that. Just a matter of how to do it..
Angie's post
"I am disappointed, however. Strange, I always thought you were above all of this."
Angie again takes any criticism (however constructive) personally.
CZ
You have stated before that no Jew has ever crossed your Gentile path.
- They have I just said that I don’t know any personally (I have met some superficially)
"How come you have abandoned your gentile brethren to occupy the time defending the very government that has expelled them?"
- This betrays a twisted mindset where people are divided into "Jews" and "not Jews". There is no reason why I should have allegiance to Jews or any other group in Israel.
"You must be one of those self hating gentile..."
- does not follow
I apologize for the harshness of my words earlier. I was taking a momentary break from studying and was in a foul mood and took it out on the first person that I found irritating. I don't believe your posts are nutrient-free, although I often wish you'd get down to brass tacks and spare us the endless self-congrats on who you've been reading. It's not like you're the only one around here who opens up a book....
What set me off was your gracious response to Brian on the other thread. Let's be clear: Brian is an anti-semite nazi-boy. If you wish to be taken seriously in your criticism of Israel--which, to repeat, isn't the only bad actor in the mid east, by far--you're gonna have to start being more discriminating in who you pair up with. You give ammo to foolies who could care less about the Palestineans--scottie, gehrig, KL et al--when you fail to clearly and emphatically distance yourself from opportunistic bigots like Brian.
What set me off was your gracious response to Brian on the other thread. Let's be clear: Brian is an anti-semite nazi-boy. If you wish to be taken seriously in your criticism of Israel--which, to repeat, isn't the only bad actor in the mid east, by far--you're gonna have to start being more discriminating in who you pair up with. You give ammo to foolies who could care less about the Palestineans--scottie, gehrig, KL et al--when you fail to clearly and emphatically distance yourself from opportunistic bigots like Brian.
scottie:
let's be clear:
--the Israeli state is doing everything in its power to avoid removing itself from the occupied territories. don't suggest otherwise, you only discredit "common-sense" (yawn) center-rightist capitalists like yourself when you do that (and y'all don't have much credibility to be throwing around). Sharon just the other day announced that he plans to build more settlements.
let's be clear:
--the Israeli state is doing everything in its power to avoid removing itself from the occupied territories. don't suggest otherwise, you only discredit "common-sense" (yawn) center-rightist capitalists like yourself when you do that (and y'all don't have much credibility to be throwing around). Sharon just the other day announced that he plans to build more settlements.
It's not at all true that I don't care about the Palestinian Arabs. In fact, given that the "anti-Zionists" don't at all care about the Palestinian Arabs living under Arab rule (imprisoned in camps), I can claim that I care more about them (from a humanitarian perspective) than the "anti-Zionists" do. For the AZs only care about them to use as pawns, tools, against Israel.
Their own label betrays them. They aren't "humanitarians for Arab refugees" (and of course have no interest in the plight of Jewish refugees, from Ethiopia or Arab countries), they are "anti-Zionists". As many have stated outright, their goal is the destruction of Israel.
As for Sharon, he has spoken of dismantling "settlements" in favor of peace. It is understood by the parties involved that Israel will end up holding to part of the disputed territories (at Taba, this was a net 3%), regions where primarily only Jews reside. Sharon has spoken of expanding "settlements", such as the city of Ariel, in those areas.
Their own label betrays them. They aren't "humanitarians for Arab refugees" (and of course have no interest in the plight of Jewish refugees, from Ethiopia or Arab countries), they are "anti-Zionists". As many have stated outright, their goal is the destruction of Israel.
As for Sharon, he has spoken of dismantling "settlements" in favor of peace. It is understood by the parties involved that Israel will end up holding to part of the disputed territories (at Taba, this was a net 3%), regions where primarily only Jews reside. Sharon has spoken of expanding "settlements", such as the city of Ariel, in those areas.
aaron: "You give ammo to foolies who could care less about the Palestineans--scottie, gehrig, KL et al--when you fail to clearly and emphatically distance yourself from opportunistic bigots like Brian."
You haven't a clue what I think about the Palestinians. Why? Because I'm not going to get into any serious discussion about how to solve the Arab-Israeli conflict on a board that hasn't yet come to grips with its double standard on antisemitism, let alone Zionism,
@%<
You haven't a clue what I think about the Palestinians. Why? Because I'm not going to get into any serious discussion about how to solve the Arab-Israeli conflict on a board that hasn't yet come to grips with its double standard on antisemitism, let alone Zionism,
@%<
Do you thing that when Jews are being ethnically cleansed, other Jews should come to their defense?
And if thats so, than it follows that when some goys are systematically being the victims of ethnic cleansing (albeit in a kosher manner ), the rest of the goys (you bein; one of them ) should flock to their defense.
And if thats so, than it follows that when some goys are systematically being the victims of ethnic cleansing (albeit in a kosher manner ), the rest of the goys (you bein; one of them ) should flock to their defense.
Aaron
" foolies who could care less about the Palestineans--scottie, gehrig, KL et al"
- We do actually care about them. We just have a difference of opinion as to
A) what is a practical solution and
B) the degree to which the israelis or the palistinians have and will act unreasonably..
"let's be clear: --the Israeli state is doing everything in its power to avoid removing itself from the occupied territories."
I expect there are elements within the israeli parliment who are desperate to stay in the occupied territories. *I* want them to alow a palistinian state but I don't expect them to leave without some sort of peace settlement and an acceptible decision on boarders etc. Lets say that israel leaves the occupied territories and then terrorism continues but even more frequent (because hamas doesnt like israel not just the occupation), and settlers get killed - eventually israel will reinvade palestine and then you will just have a much worse situation than you have now.
It MIGHT speed up a settlement if sharon was to loose an election (or not have to cosy up with settler parties at least) but of course the rightists will win if terrorism is continuing (you dont pick a weak leader if you are under attack). So it is in everyones interests if the terrorism can be stopped.
Whoever
" the rest of the goys (you bein; one of them)"
why are you trying to set up a "jew" and "not jew" division?
" foolies who could care less about the Palestineans--scottie, gehrig, KL et al"
- We do actually care about them. We just have a difference of opinion as to
A) what is a practical solution and
B) the degree to which the israelis or the palistinians have and will act unreasonably..
"let's be clear: --the Israeli state is doing everything in its power to avoid removing itself from the occupied territories."
I expect there are elements within the israeli parliment who are desperate to stay in the occupied territories. *I* want them to alow a palistinian state but I don't expect them to leave without some sort of peace settlement and an acceptible decision on boarders etc. Lets say that israel leaves the occupied territories and then terrorism continues but even more frequent (because hamas doesnt like israel not just the occupation), and settlers get killed - eventually israel will reinvade palestine and then you will just have a much worse situation than you have now.
It MIGHT speed up a settlement if sharon was to loose an election (or not have to cosy up with settler parties at least) but of course the rightists will win if terrorism is continuing (you dont pick a weak leader if you are under attack). So it is in everyones interests if the terrorism can be stopped.
Whoever
" the rest of the goys (you bein; one of them)"
why are you trying to set up a "jew" and "not jew" division?
You are betraying your brethren by being a vocal Zionist as Zionists are ethnically cleansing the Gentile Population who don't follow the Jewish faith!
You are a self hating gentile.
What religion were you born to?
You are a self hating gentile.
What religion were you born to?
Some people here like conerned zionist claim that zionists cannot be jews then you claim that the zionists are trying to remove everyone who is not a jew.
Go fight it out between the "two" of you
Your attempts to arbitrarily group people into "those who oppose you" and everyone else are pathetic.
Go fight it out between the "two" of you
Your attempts to arbitrarily group people into "those who oppose you" and everyone else are pathetic.
you're so sick today
but I love you anyway
my dear
I will take care of you
but I love you anyway
my dear
I will take care of you
Sharon has a long bloody record as an advocate of a "Greater Israel." All that prattle about a "strong defense" doesn't expunge this fact.
Of course, under the "dove", Barak--gehrig's man--the building of settlements accelerated and the Palestineans were offered a bantustan statelet.
Of course, under the "dove", Barak--gehrig's man--the building of settlements accelerated and the Palestineans were offered a bantustan statelet.
Please don't think I've abandoned my Jenin project.
I've just trying to recover from the nastiness directed at me on different thread here on my beloved SF Indymedia board.
However, my notes for my final piece are just waiting to be typed. So maybe late today or tomorrow a.m. we'll finish up with Jenin, and then move on to other "massacres" by any other name
I've just trying to recover from the nastiness directed at me on different thread here on my beloved SF Indymedia board.
However, my notes for my final piece are just waiting to be typed. So maybe late today or tomorrow a.m. we'll finish up with Jenin, and then move on to other "massacres" by any other name
You _will_ be sure to include the recent kidnapping of the governor of Jenin, won't you?
@%<
@%<
My project, as stated from the beginning, was to deal with the Jenin massacre "by any other name".
If you want to talk about the current situation with the "governor" being kidnapped, etc.., etc., by all means, start your own "After the Massacre by any other Name" project.
I'm not telling you what to write, Mr. Gehrig. Nor am I taking direction from you as to what I write. I hope I've made myself perfectly clear?
If you want to talk about the current situation with the "governor" being kidnapped, etc.., etc., by all means, start your own "After the Massacre by any other Name" project.
I'm not telling you what to write, Mr. Gehrig. Nor am I taking direction from you as to what I write. I hope I've made myself perfectly clear?
Absolutely -- as long as you're consistent about it. In other words, don't say "Well, Gehrig only comments about _this_ and not _that_ and that shows that he's a racist" and then turn around and declare that you're going to talk about _this_ but not _that_. Don't reserve for yourself a right you try to deny to me.
You _do_ know what happened to the governor of Jenin, don't you?
@%<
You _do_ know what happened to the governor of Jenin, don't you?
@%<
This may be a rhetorical question, but do you guys have jobs or is trolling sites like Indymedia spreading misinformation and apologia about your favorite state your full time hobby.
Has anything further happened to him? I won't be watching BBC World 'til 7:30 pm. our time.
Yes, I am aware that Haider irsheid had been pulled from his motor vehicle, beaten, and "kidnapped" for approximately five hours by an offshoot of the Fatah movement known as al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade, and that he was released upon an order from Yasser Arafat.
The al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigdate accuse him of assassinating its members and of collusion with Israel.
Anything more I guess I'll have to wait 'til 7:30 to find out..
Yes, I am aware that Haider irsheid had been pulled from his motor vehicle, beaten, and "kidnapped" for approximately five hours by an offshoot of the Fatah movement known as al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade, and that he was released upon an order from Yasser Arafat.
The al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigdate accuse him of assassinating its members and of collusion with Israel.
Anything more I guess I'll have to wait 'til 7:30 to find out..
Oh, great. So we have nessie, who is against israel existing at all, and we have angie, who has apparently made it her fucking mission to spread as much anti-israel misinformation or exaggerated accurate information as possible, while making SURE to never make the other side look bad. Great. I wonder who funds these people? Which islamic-funded organizations?
Fucking scumbags. God dammit, this sucks.
Fucking scumbags. God dammit, this sucks.
There would not be any need for me to present the other side re the Jenin issue if the Israeli government had not
a) kept journalists out of the area;
b) kept medical personnel out of the area;
c) cut off water and electricity to the area
d) refused to allow a UN investigative team access to the area
Need I go on?
That fanaticism you and your aliases are showing would really be much better directed to convincing Ariel Sharon to dismantle the damn settlements, remove the wall, get the hell back to pre-1967 borders, make compensation to the Palestinians for the theft of their orchards, their homes, their water, their lives.
a) kept journalists out of the area;
b) kept medical personnel out of the area;
c) cut off water and electricity to the area
d) refused to allow a UN investigative team access to the area
Need I go on?
That fanaticism you and your aliases are showing would really be much better directed to convincing Ariel Sharon to dismantle the damn settlements, remove the wall, get the hell back to pre-1967 borders, make compensation to the Palestinians for the theft of their orchards, their homes, their water, their lives.
"God dammit, this sucks."
What, being opposed by brainiacs like Nessie and Angie? I think it's a riot. Nessie can be led around by the nose like a dolphin in an aquarium presentation, just by asking him to correlate his sanctimonious appeals to fairness to his blatantly unfair rhetoric when it comes to Israel.
@%<
What, being opposed by brainiacs like Nessie and Angie? I think it's a riot. Nessie can be led around by the nose like a dolphin in an aquarium presentation, just by asking him to correlate his sanctimonious appeals to fairness to his blatantly unfair rhetoric when it comes to Israel.
@%<
question
- Use a real name for your nick.
Other stuff
"and that he was released upon an order from Yasser Arafat."
Interesting that they respond to arafat when he tells them to release govenors but apparently killing civilians in israel is "spontanious". Seems like its a difference of convenience.
- Use a real name for your nick.
Other stuff
"and that he was released upon an order from Yasser Arafat."
Interesting that they respond to arafat when he tells them to release govenors but apparently killing civilians in israel is "spontanious". Seems like its a difference of convenience.
I guess I'd argue that what Nessie does, in helping as an Indybay volunteer, actually _does_ reach outside this website. By keeping Indybay running, to the degree that he assists, he's doing a good thing, and I'd argue that Indybay is more than just a sandbox in that sense, just as the IMC movement as a whole is more than just a playground for faux radicals to trade anonymous comments.
Now, his _posts_ ... that's a different story, and I don't think he casts a very big intellectual footprint in that sense (although, to be honest, neither do I).
@%<<
Now, his _posts_ ... that's a different story, and I don't think he casts a very big intellectual footprint in that sense (although, to be honest, neither do I).
@%<<
I dont think you would know how big a footprint you make. all sorts of interesting people will read indymedia sites and will be interested to know for example what the anti US left is saying and what the counter arguments are to that. They of course wont come on here and explain that they are doing that and they wont "reference" indymedia. That effect could of course be good or bad.
Im not sure if these people do this already but I guess if you were going to really get up the US's nose (by for example gassing some civilians) here might be a good place to see on what grounds you could still find support within the US.
(you need real people but normal people just dont turn up to your "despotic nation focus groups".)
Im not sure if these people do this already but I guess if you were going to really get up the US's nose (by for example gassing some civilians) here might be a good place to see on what grounds you could still find support within the US.
(you need real people but normal people just dont turn up to your "despotic nation focus groups".)
Nessie: " I am not singling out Israel as the only nation state that needs to go."
Then it should be no trouble for you to point out another post here on Indybay where you call for the dissolution of another state _by name_. Or is that honor reserved only for Israel?
@%<
Then it should be no trouble for you to point out another post here on Indybay where you call for the dissolution of another state _by name_. Or is that honor reserved only for Israel?
@%<
Way to point to an empty rhetorical trope as if it were significant. Since you've got access to the search capabilities you've taken away from the rest of us, give us a quick count -- over the last, say, three months, how many different posts have you made on Indybay explicitly calling for the dismantling of Tuvalu, as opposed to your favorite whipping boy, Thuh Zi-i-ionist Entity?
@%<
@%<
"And just what are these standards that Israel alone is held to? Any other country that separated out the majority of the population on the basis of ethnicity, and subjected them to draconian controls, controlling their movements, and keeping them penned up in special ghettos, would long ago have been declared an international pariah. How has Israel managed to get away with it – and, not only that, but how have they managed to go on the offensive, and target their critics as 'bigots'?"
-Justin Raimondo
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/j062303.html
-Justin Raimondo
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/j062303.html
the direction and momentum of polling data on Bush and Iraq is pretty convincing evidence that what
scottie limbaugh calls the "anti-US left"
is comin' up.
there's a shift going on that ain't advantageous to your side, Scottie.
you all saw, i'm sure, the picture of Blair in Japan when asked about Kelly's death. he looked defeated, just a shell of a man. the mountain of lies, deceit, and death is turning into an avalanche that
will crush him. bush isn't impervious to this
wonderful development.
$$$$
capitalism is in global crisis, the US is caught in a quagmire in Iraq and american rightists
act like shit's going swimmingly. time to wake up from your long nap, guys.
scottie limbaugh calls the "anti-US left"
is comin' up.
there's a shift going on that ain't advantageous to your side, Scottie.
you all saw, i'm sure, the picture of Blair in Japan when asked about Kelly's death. he looked defeated, just a shell of a man. the mountain of lies, deceit, and death is turning into an avalanche that
will crush him. bush isn't impervious to this
wonderful development.
$$$$
capitalism is in global crisis, the US is caught in a quagmire in Iraq and american rightists
act like shit's going swimmingly. time to wake up from your long nap, guys.
My computer will be down for the next several hours, so Jenin (sadly) will have to wait. As soon as I am up and going I shall continue as planned..
it is way past time that we crush Tuvalu
- are you going to crush all these countries by force?
the direction and momentum of polling data on Bush and Iraq is pretty convincing evidence that what
scottie limbaugh calls the "anti-US left"
is comin' up. there's a shift going on that ain't advantageous to your side, Scottie.
- dont you agree that it is mroe anti-US than the "pro-US right"? if so then dont bother with the "sneer quotes" or the "limbaugh" as if I would watch him.
- Depends on who is the democratic candidate.either pick someone who is a "Clinton" and they might win (I'm fine with that) or someone who is a "Nader" and they will loose. Either way none of them are as far left as you guys (if you even fit in the scale) so you dont win nomatter what happens.
"you all saw, i'm sure, the picture of Blair in Japan when asked about Kelly's death. "
-the question is a "dont answer it" question. Blair was smart enough to realise that but take note politicians that is the way to hurt a primeinister even if it is not his fault.
So are you trying to make the conservatives win in england by the way?
Far left ideology tends in the end to turn on itself which is my real issue with it being the government. that it would either criple the US so much that it could not compete with other super powers or it would turn on its own people in a stalinesque sort of a way.
"capitalism is in global crisis"
- Generaly economies are still growing. But anyway you dont seem to be talking about capitalism you are talking about "anglophiles".
Besides your alternative is not a solution.
- are you going to crush all these countries by force?
the direction and momentum of polling data on Bush and Iraq is pretty convincing evidence that what
scottie limbaugh calls the "anti-US left"
is comin' up. there's a shift going on that ain't advantageous to your side, Scottie.
- dont you agree that it is mroe anti-US than the "pro-US right"? if so then dont bother with the "sneer quotes" or the "limbaugh" as if I would watch him.
- Depends on who is the democratic candidate.either pick someone who is a "Clinton" and they might win (I'm fine with that) or someone who is a "Nader" and they will loose. Either way none of them are as far left as you guys (if you even fit in the scale) so you dont win nomatter what happens.
"you all saw, i'm sure, the picture of Blair in Japan when asked about Kelly's death. "
-the question is a "dont answer it" question. Blair was smart enough to realise that but take note politicians that is the way to hurt a primeinister even if it is not his fault.
So are you trying to make the conservatives win in england by the way?
Far left ideology tends in the end to turn on itself which is my real issue with it being the government. that it would either criple the US so much that it could not compete with other super powers or it would turn on its own people in a stalinesque sort of a way.
"capitalism is in global crisis"
- Generaly economies are still growing. But anyway you dont seem to be talking about capitalism you are talking about "anglophiles".
Besides your alternative is not a solution.
...will this help the Rapture occur earlier?
dont bother with the "sneer quotes" or the "limbaugh" as if I would watch him
why wouldn't you watch him...is he not zionist to your liking...
you Semitic phobe
why wouldn't you watch him...is he not zionist to your liking...
you Semitic phobe
Well main reason is I don’t even know where I would get access to his stuff. Not being in the US and him going down like a stone in most other countries.
Besides I tend to read my opponents writing and figure out the truth from knowing their biases (as if I have any choice).
Besides my politics isn’t the same as Limbaugh anyway.
Now why did I bother even answering that stupid question?
Besides I tend to read my opponents writing and figure out the truth from knowing their biases (as if I have any choice).
Besides my politics isn’t the same as Limbaugh anyway.
Now why did I bother even answering that stupid question?
One year since 'Jenin' - 55 years above the law, end Israel's impunity
This week marks the 1st anniversary of the destruction of large parts of Jenin refugee camp that left more than 400 families homeless, more than 50 dead and hundreds injured. The Israeli military attack on Jenin refugee camp, a protected civilian area under international law, took place in the context of Israel's massive assault and reoccupation of Palestinian cities, towns, villages, and refugee camps across the West Bank.
Despite documentation of war crimes and crimes against humanity committed by Israeli military forces during this period no one has been held accountable. UN Security Council Resolution 1405 (19 April 2002), calling for an international and impartial investigation into events in Jenin refugee camp has never been implemented due to Israeli non-cooperation. Examples of war crimes include extensive destruction of property not justified by military necessity, the use of protected persons as human shields, and intentionally launching an attack in the knowledge that such attack will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects.
The failure of the international community to enforce international law and to hold accountable those responsible for these violations and grave breaches is symptomatic of failed international efforts to facilitate a just, durable, and comprehensive solution to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. The durability of any future political process will depend upon the ability of the international community, including the 'Quartet' (US, EU, Russia, and the UN) to bring an end to the massive and systematic violation of fundamental human rights and humanitarian norms, ensure that all future agreements between Israel and the PLO are fully consistent with international law and UN resolutions (including the right of refugees to return and repossess their properties), and hold accountable those responsible for violation of these rights and norms.
On the first anniversary of the atrocities committed by Israeli military forces in Jenin refugee camp, BADIL would like to announce the launching of a special memorial webpage dedicated to the memory of those Palestinians who lost their lives and homes in the camp. The webpage also serves to remind that those responsible for the commission of serious human rights violations and grave breaches of international humanitarian law should be held accountable. Moreover, the issue of Jenin refugee camp will not be resolved until refugees are able to exercise their basic human rights to return to their homes of origin and repossess their properties.
BADIL Resource Center aims to provide a resource pool of alternative, critical adn progressive information on the queston of Palestinian refugees in our quest to achieve a just and lasting soluton for exiled Palestinians based on their right of return. PO Box 728, Bethlehem, Palestine; Email: info [at] badil.org; Website: http://www.badil.org; Tel/fax: -2-2747346; -52-360769
This week marks the 1st anniversary of the destruction of large parts of Jenin refugee camp that left more than 400 families homeless, more than 50 dead and hundreds injured. The Israeli military attack on Jenin refugee camp, a protected civilian area under international law, took place in the context of Israel's massive assault and reoccupation of Palestinian cities, towns, villages, and refugee camps across the West Bank.
Despite documentation of war crimes and crimes against humanity committed by Israeli military forces during this period no one has been held accountable. UN Security Council Resolution 1405 (19 April 2002), calling for an international and impartial investigation into events in Jenin refugee camp has never been implemented due to Israeli non-cooperation. Examples of war crimes include extensive destruction of property not justified by military necessity, the use of protected persons as human shields, and intentionally launching an attack in the knowledge that such attack will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects.
The failure of the international community to enforce international law and to hold accountable those responsible for these violations and grave breaches is symptomatic of failed international efforts to facilitate a just, durable, and comprehensive solution to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. The durability of any future political process will depend upon the ability of the international community, including the 'Quartet' (US, EU, Russia, and the UN) to bring an end to the massive and systematic violation of fundamental human rights and humanitarian norms, ensure that all future agreements between Israel and the PLO are fully consistent with international law and UN resolutions (including the right of refugees to return and repossess their properties), and hold accountable those responsible for violation of these rights and norms.
On the first anniversary of the atrocities committed by Israeli military forces in Jenin refugee camp, BADIL would like to announce the launching of a special memorial webpage dedicated to the memory of those Palestinians who lost their lives and homes in the camp. The webpage also serves to remind that those responsible for the commission of serious human rights violations and grave breaches of international humanitarian law should be held accountable. Moreover, the issue of Jenin refugee camp will not be resolved until refugees are able to exercise their basic human rights to return to their homes of origin and repossess their properties.
BADIL Resource Center aims to provide a resource pool of alternative, critical adn progressive information on the queston of Palestinian refugees in our quest to achieve a just and lasting soluton for exiled Palestinians based on their right of return. PO Box 728, Bethlehem, Palestine; Email: info [at] badil.org; Website: http://www.badil.org; Tel/fax: -2-2747346; -52-360769
Yours is a timely article in terms of my Jenin project I began here several days ago. It is my purpose to talk about the event, itself, but I am most curious as to what had happened to the camp in the intervening year.
Apparently not a lot.
However, what about the humanitarian side of things? Has there been homes rebuilt? Has water and electricity been maintained? Has anyone ensured that a grief counsellor would be available to help the strickened peoples cope with the horrific trauma? Please advise.
Apparently not a lot.
However, what about the humanitarian side of things? Has there been homes rebuilt? Has water and electricity been maintained? Has anyone ensured that a grief counsellor would be available to help the strickened peoples cope with the horrific trauma? Please advise.
Why don't you get a sensible moniker that means something in your case, like "idiot"?
No one is impressed with your filth nor your comments. Why don't you slither back under the rock from whence you came?
No one is impressed with your filth nor your comments. Why don't you slither back under the rock from whence you came?
Thanks for allowing us to see this video. It took me a while to watch it in its entirety because I was constantly getting emotional.
It brought us as close as any of us got to Jenin without actually being there. Thank you, Kevin!
It brought us as close as any of us got to Jenin without actually being there. Thank you, Kevin!
Hi Angie!
It was I, who posted the BADIL report: 'Jenin one year later'. If you are curious, their web-link is:
http://www.badil.org/
Another interesting link:
http://www.muhajabah.com/palestine.php?page=2
It was I, who posted the BADIL report: 'Jenin one year later'. If you are curious, their web-link is:
http://www.badil.org/
Another interesting link:
http://www.muhajabah.com/palestine.php?page=2
Hey, this is great! I thank you truly!
There is so much stuff here I must find time to read and soon.
There is so much stuff here I must find time to read and soon.
In an effort to ascertain that I had, indeed, a desk and not two feet plus of papers, I did some tidying up this afternoon, and to my acute surprise there it was! My handwritten notes, the final chapter, shall we say, in my Jenin project. Hell, I thought I'd already sent it along.
However, it's a good thing, perhaps, that I still have it here because whilst searching for something else on a tape from April 2002 last night I came across several news related items dealing with Jenin. Wow! Great!
So tomorrow we shall see my final chapter of Jenin, and then I'll move on, as I promised, to yet another massacre.
I can't wait to do some research into the Kibieh massacre which saw Uri Avnery have both hands broken because he dared criticize same. Like, I wonder what he said?? Who broke his hands? Were the criminals ever captured? The questions go on. If only there were more time!
More tomorrow and henceforth.
Sixteen months ago the Jenin refugee camp became the biggest news story of April 2002.
Much has been written, much left unsaid. There are accusations, counter accusations; blame and denial.
Tragically, however, Jenin came and went, leaving us with much "documentation", numerous "reports" and very little else.
I have already devoted a lot of time and energy to Jenin in this particular thread, and tonight I'm going to conclude my "Jenin Will Not Go Quietly Into the Night Now or Ever" . I've read and read, watched news reports, and videos, listened to "pundits" and "top government officials".
What do we know? Well, we have the reports of Amnesty International and the Human Rights Watch, together with the Kofi Annan report. However, we can dismiss the Kofi Annan report because it has offered nothing new, simply a rehash of previous "evidence", other "reports", etc., causing the UK Independent's, Justin Huggler, not at all impressed, to state bluntly: "The UN Report was carefully written not to give offence to Israel and its allies".
The most curious feature of Jenin was the massive propaganda blitz commenced by Israel once the world saw the camp. Everyone knew about this propaganda blitz, it having been discussed openly by the government/media in Israel.
And then there it was! The uproar of a massacre or not, depending on who one listened to. What most of us didn't expect, however, was for this "not a massacre" to take on a life of its own, to such an extent that the realities that were Jenin were pushed in to the background, whilst a bloody foolish and senseless debate raged re same. Seldom have we seen anything so totally asinine!
What was conveniently forgotten about, and not acted upon, were the findings of breaches of international law and war crimes by both Amensty International and Human Rights Watch. Both groups had investigators in the area shortly after the IDF departed. Certainly the international community or the UN dealt not with said breaches. In fact, the UN fact finding team was rendered useless in composition and mandate by Israel.
There was the timely video by IMC's reporter, Kevin Skvoraek, shot immediately after the withdrawal of the Israeli troops, a wretched, heartbreaking look at lives interrupted. The Independent covered the horrors with grim determination and barely concealed anger.
Will we ever get answers to the questions that continue to haunt us (and even more so the people of Jenin) as to why:
a) water. sewer, electricity were shut off;
b) medical personnel were not permitted access to the injured who lay dying tin the streets, the dead left to decompose for days; Red Cross was not allowed in the camp, ambulances shot at;
c) homes were demolished after the Palestinian fighters had surrended'
d) summary executions were carried out;
e) human shields were used;
f) journalists were banned from the site from the 3rd until the 16th;
g) food, water, medical supplies not available, and why lorries carrying supplies were located in vacant lots, supplies still intact;
h) why the UN and the internatinal community didn't go ahead with its fact finding mission immediately regardless of any, and all, opposition.
What stands out in my mind, however, was the visit of UN Special Envoy, Terje Raod-Larsen, to the camp . As we watched transfixed in horrific disbelief as the first pictures of Jenin emerged on BBC News World, showing Mr. Larsen wandering about the ruins, his anger visible, it looked like the end of the world, and watching the devastion of human life and property I wept.
I wept for the victims of this totally stupid, senseless "conflict" which has killed so many on both sides; I wept for the families torn apart by death, and for the terror the refugees endured for two plus weeks; I wept for the shocked, disoriented woman looking among the rubble for some piece of her former home; for the youngster wandering the ruins; and most of all for the evil, evil cruelty humankind bestows on humankind.
And all the media could do was debate "a massacre or not a massacre". You have 4000 people rendered homeless; 800 plus homes reduced to dust; 56 dead identified, and this is all the media can come up with. Was this a massacre? Stupid, mindless doesn't begin to cover it.
In closing I' d like to quote Steve Gowans, writing for the Media Monitor Network on 6 August 2002:
"So was there a massacre? In any common, every day use of the word, yes. And not only of Palestinians, but of the truth as well".
There was NO massacre.
The PA admitted it. (!!!)
The UN admitted it.
END OF STORY. PERIOD.
The PA admitted it. (!!!)
The UN admitted it.
END OF STORY. PERIOD.
The PA did not issue a statement denying a massacre and niether did Kofi Annan.
Kofi , the present secretary of the UN, released an official report admitting that they do not have the means to decipher what had happened in the refugee camp since the Sharon regime blocked all acess to the premises from international media and local media as well.
Kofi , the present secretary of the UN, released an official report admitting that they do not have the means to decipher what had happened in the refugee camp since the Sharon regime blocked all acess to the premises from international media and local media as well.
You talk about a dispute over the definition of a massacare as if you were debating facts. It is instead a debate on the definition of the word.
We know who died in Jenin do you want to see their names and ages listed? We dont really need more detailed information unless it is the exact state of mind of the israelis. There was 56 (give or take a couple) about half of whom were claimed as militants by their families etc the rest were at least not officially combatants.
If we are to address the definition of massacare
Considering the number of houses that were knocked down and 4000 people rendered homeless (presumably from damage to their houses??) etc twenty somthing civilians is quite a low death toll. Infact most of these deaths occured in "crossfire" type incidents. You can argue the justification for knocking down the houses etc but that doesnt refer to the massacare part.
a massacare must be "wanton" and this clearly was not.
We know who died in Jenin do you want to see their names and ages listed? We dont really need more detailed information unless it is the exact state of mind of the israelis. There was 56 (give or take a couple) about half of whom were claimed as militants by their families etc the rest were at least not officially combatants.
If we are to address the definition of massacare
Considering the number of houses that were knocked down and 4000 people rendered homeless (presumably from damage to their houses??) etc twenty somthing civilians is quite a low death toll. Infact most of these deaths occured in "crossfire" type incidents. You can argue the justification for knocking down the houses etc but that doesnt refer to the massacare part.
a massacare must be "wanton" and this clearly was not.
does the fifty-six figure include or exclude Kurdis casualties?
Google, kurdi and gush shalom, to research the Truth of the matter.
Google, kurdi and gush shalom, to research the Truth of the matter.
you mean "truth"?
Totally appropos of nothing at all, I am going to be SO HAPPY when my dear "Concerned Zionist" returns from his holiday. Surely his two weeks are up by now? It's been unhappy here without him, and it seems like forever since he departed.
Are you referring to Uri Avnery's Gush Shalom (Peace Bloc) or is it something else? Just curious as I'm such a huge admirer of Uri Avnery!!
Thanks!
He is refering to some tabloid news article. and in as far as it is based on fact (the fact that it doesnt seem to have been picked up much outside of the tabloid and indymedia is a bad sign) It is a reasonable assumption that it is included in HRW etc's figures. (it is not like HRW ran around intentionaly ignoring deaths from what I saw they did a quite good job acounting for people)
I've read the article about this Kurdi and I was not referring to that. I didn't mention it, did i?
I was referring to Gush Shalom, which is a peace group that was founded years ago by Uri Avnery. If Uri and his group have something to say about the deaths in Jenin, I want to know.
To hell with tabloids. If the story about Kurdi is a sham or a gimmick, the iDF would have come out and denied it. They deny everything else.
You have failed to deny a number of accusations leveled at you on sf indymedia while denying others. Does that mean that everything you did not deny is true?
How about acusations leveled at you on boards that you have not read or are not worth reading?
And If you did deny them just in a place where I havent looked yet then are they still true until you deny them in a more public place?
How about acusations leveled at you on boards that you have not read or are not worth reading?
And If you did deny them just in a place where I havent looked yet then are they still true until you deny them in a more public place?
You have no one to play with tonight, Scottie? The Board being a wee bit short of threads, etc. I guess you thought you'd annoy me, eh? (That's what we say here in Canada --- "eh"??
Forget it, pal. I'm busy. I'm battling a bleeding stomach flu since Friday morning (or something), I can' t seem to make any progress on a job I'm doing. I'm tired, tired, tired. It's already 1:45 a.m. here, but I must carry on. I don't want to, but that's too bad, I guess.
I found out what I wanted re the above post anyway. The spiel by the infamous Kurdi was translated by Gush Shalom from Hebrew into English. Geez, that's all I wanted to know. There is no need to launch a massive verbal assault on me or anything. Can't you be nice for once? Pleasant, even? Smile, man.
What a bleeding relief it is to know that my dear Concerned Zionist is back amongst us! He couldn't have picked a better night to return to our board, bless him.l Thank you, God!!
Forget it, pal. I'm busy. I'm battling a bleeding stomach flu since Friday morning (or something), I can' t seem to make any progress on a job I'm doing. I'm tired, tired, tired. It's already 1:45 a.m. here, but I must carry on. I don't want to, but that's too bad, I guess.
I found out what I wanted re the above post anyway. The spiel by the infamous Kurdi was translated by Gush Shalom from Hebrew into English. Geez, that's all I wanted to know. There is no need to launch a massive verbal assault on me or anything. Can't you be nice for once? Pleasant, even? Smile, man.
What a bleeding relief it is to know that my dear Concerned Zionist is back amongst us! He couldn't have picked a better night to return to our board, bless him.l Thank you, God!!
It's been five months since I followed John Pilger onto this SF Indymedia Board, and what a learning experience it has been. Five months ago if I had read the above vilification/character assassination, I'd be weeping giant tears.
Today it's part of life on the Board.
I read it, sigh, shake my head, and carry on because such hate towards me is obviously being done by the totally inept, filthy mind of a fanatic, a fanatic who, by uttering such trash, thinks he is making an impression. Let vulgarity take the place of intellect, indeed.
You delude yourself, sir, into assigning "sides" here. This is not a school yard game. It's reality, a nasty, sick, dispicable reality that has continued for over fifty years.
I don't have a "side". My purpose is to point out, as in the case of Jenin, how easily propaganda, when it has been raised to an art form, can annilihate the truth.
And that's "my side". I am for truth and justice in this hell hole. I am for a just and dignified peace. Anything else is unacceptable.
I think it's high time your "side" stopped "trying to kill the guilty", whether it be sloppily or otherwise. In other so called "democracies" in the world, the "guilty" are not "killed sloppily". They are brought before a Court of law where there is evidence presented to prove guilt or innocence.
Not Israel. It likes to call itself a "democracy" but someone should explain what "democracy" means. Even with the "road map" in place, even with a truce by the Palestinian forces, Israel continued/continues on its merry way murdering so called "militants", assassinating members of Hamas. It hardly indicates a willingness to work together, does it? And it's been this way since 1948.
Why don't you tell your beloved Israel to get the hell out of the Occupied Territories. Take the illegal settlements, "the evil wall" (as Uri Avnery calls it), and give the Palestinian peoples back their destroyed orchards, their destroyed homes, their destroyed lives. Take away the checkpoints, the roadblocks, the curfews, and get the hell back from whence they came. Elect someone who believes in justice and peace, not a bleeding war criminal whose record of Palestinian deaths and destruction of their property is legendary.
An oppressed people constantly under seige from the fourth biggest army in the world will fight back. For almost forty years oppression is all the Palestinians have known. It doesn't say much for "your side", does it?
In the future if you can't come on this Board with some degree of civility, don't bother addressing me. I'm too busy to deal with filth.
it contained a sexist slur. No, you may not disrespect women on this website.
I went to show a friend of mine what STFU had written re myself, and, lo, it was GONE. The RELIEF!!!
I shocked us both by promptly bursting into tears. Guess I'm not as tough as I thought I was after all.
Thank you, dear "one of the editors" (she gulps). Thank you!!
Dear editors,
I would like to begin by saying I really respect the job you do, putting up boards like this for us to discuss these issues and even taking the time to read over our posts to see that the conversation remains on the topic as well as somewhat decent.
I see that you remove some comments which contain sexist slurs or extreme expressions of hate.
Although I can see why you are concerned, I'm not sure if removing these messages, however idiotic they may be, is the best course. When a person, whichever side he or she happens to be on, posts stupid garbage like that on a discussion board, s/he only reveals his/her stupidity and weakness of argument. Most of the other viewers, even if on this persons' side, will disagree and tell him/her what they think of such comments.
Furthermore, if you delete this individual's statements, s/he may go off crying about 'censorship' and 'hypocrisy' about a site that is supposed to allow people to express their views.
Don't delete an idiots' comments. Let the rest of the board let the jerk know how stupid s/he is. Believe me, they will. That way the offensive primate won't be able to accuse you of anything but will get his/her just desserts.
These are just my thoughts. This is a great site and always has been, and regardless of what action you take I will keep on visiting it and posting. Just a couple of thoughts, but act accordingly to your policies. Judging from the way your site is and always has been informing and allowing others to express their views, they are good policies. I've never made a website and I have absolutely no experience in this regard, so if what I am saying is a bunch of manure and could unwittingly damage this board, please ignore this post.
Your'e the experts. Keep up the good work.
( this is where I normally say 'Heil Sharon', but this isn't a politically charged post, just a technical suggestion)
- A concerned Zionist
I would like to begin by saying I really respect the job you do, putting up boards like this for us to discuss these issues and even taking the time to read over our posts to see that the conversation remains on the topic as well as somewhat decent.
I see that you remove some comments which contain sexist slurs or extreme expressions of hate.
Although I can see why you are concerned, I'm not sure if removing these messages, however idiotic they may be, is the best course. When a person, whichever side he or she happens to be on, posts stupid garbage like that on a discussion board, s/he only reveals his/her stupidity and weakness of argument. Most of the other viewers, even if on this persons' side, will disagree and tell him/her what they think of such comments.
Furthermore, if you delete this individual's statements, s/he may go off crying about 'censorship' and 'hypocrisy' about a site that is supposed to allow people to express their views.
Don't delete an idiots' comments. Let the rest of the board let the jerk know how stupid s/he is. Believe me, they will. That way the offensive primate won't be able to accuse you of anything but will get his/her just desserts.
These are just my thoughts. This is a great site and always has been, and regardless of what action you take I will keep on visiting it and posting. Just a couple of thoughts, but act accordingly to your policies. Judging from the way your site is and always has been informing and allowing others to express their views, they are good policies. I've never made a website and I have absolutely no experience in this regard, so if what I am saying is a bunch of manure and could unwittingly damage this board, please ignore this post.
Your'e the experts. Keep up the good work.
( this is where I normally say 'Heil Sharon', but this isn't a politically charged post, just a technical suggestion)
- A concerned Zionist
It seems like only yesterday I was commencing my "Jenin" project and vowing to delve into every Israeli massacre.
Was I astounded a short while ago when I encountered 54 Israeli massacres, and I can't confirm that's all of them!
With the 21st anniversary of the horrific massacre at SABRA and SHATILA taking place on the 16th to the 18th of September I think it's imperative that we all pause for a moment at some point during those two days to reflect on the horrors of humankind against humankind as evidenced by those two plus days of evil.
The victims of Sabra and Shatila should NEVER BE FORGOTTEN. For the crimes carried out against these defenseless men, women, and children are so atrocious as to be barely comprehensible.
I know that I will definitely make a point to fall on my knees during this upcoming anniversary to remember, to pray that those who survived can somehow, SOMEHOW, live again.
That the world merely tut tutted about this massacre doesn't say very much for the world, does it? And while the UN brought forth Resolution 521 on 19 September '82 "condemning this criminal massacre", and whereas the UN Human Rights Commission declared that the massacre "constituted an act of genocide" there was nothing concrete done.
Oh, the UN bravely "condemned", and "reaffirmed", and "recognized", and "expressed", and "urged", and "decided" but for the victims of the dead nothing has been done for them. They are the walking wounded, left with shattered lives filled with unspeakable horror.
We must remember them. We simply must remember them.
Hmm there are lots and lots of bad things to remember in the world (a lot of which seem to be concentrated in the african continent).
I wonder if any of the lebaneese militia are stilll alive to pay money to the surviving palistinians... If we were to have a court case
I wonder if any of the lebaneese militia are stilll alive to pay money to the surviving palistinians... If we were to have a court case
And that's Ariel Sharon.
As Israel Shamir so aptly stated: "to become Prime Minister of Israel, it helps to have a massacre in your name".
The Belgian parliament has rescinded the law that allowed for prosecuting Sharon (and others) on their soil.
Sharon was punished by the Israeli supreme court. If you don't like the jusice metted out, tough for you.
***Ehud Barak, Peres, Rabin, Netanyahu, Golda Meir and Levi Eshkol for example didn't order or execute any massacres, so shut the hell up. ***
What would you be here without quotes from Uri Avneri and Israel Shamir?
The world doesn't revolve around all of Angie's wishes and vageries.
Sharon was punished by the Israeli supreme court. If you don't like the jusice metted out, tough for you.
***Ehud Barak, Peres, Rabin, Netanyahu, Golda Meir and Levi Eshkol for example didn't order or execute any massacres, so shut the hell up. ***
What would you be here without quotes from Uri Avneri and Israel Shamir?
The world doesn't revolve around all of Angie's wishes and vageries.
The primary defendant in the case you are talking about angie would be the lebaneese militia, you might have a secondary claim against "resistance" fighters who were there.
You have a fairly dubious one against sharon.
So why are you focusing only on sharon? go find the other poeple who actually did stuff.
You have a fairly dubious one against sharon.
So why are you focusing only on sharon? go find the other poeple who actually did stuff.
Maybe Sharon had a case to answer... (although he already has faced that trial)
But it seems of all the bad things that have happened in the world the belgans choose to focus on a person who might have been able to reduce the amount of harm caused by a militia which was chasing a resistance group into a city.
And who in the end DID reduce the amount of harm..
Sounds political to me.
Usually in trials we try to keep the "murderers" down to those who directly did killing or ordered it as opposed to people like the police and "the government" and bystanders etc etc
Not "people we just want to catch for somthing"
But it seems of all the bad things that have happened in the world the belgans choose to focus on a person who might have been able to reduce the amount of harm caused by a militia which was chasing a resistance group into a city.
And who in the end DID reduce the amount of harm..
Sounds political to me.
Usually in trials we try to keep the "murderers" down to those who directly did killing or ordered it as opposed to people like the police and "the government" and bystanders etc etc
Not "people we just want to catch for somthing"
had Elie Hobieka not been blasted to pieces in a car bomb on 24 January 2002.
He was going to testify with respect to Sabra and Shatila.
Someone did not want him too; hence, blown to bits, he was.
Now who do you think was responsible for that, I wonder?
NOTE:
Ariel Sharon was not the only one to be taken before the Belgium Court; so was Yasser Arafat by the Israelis.
Are you saying that the Belgium Court is good enough for Arafat, but not for Sharon? Hyposcrisy is alive and well, is it not? God, you make me sick!
"Go find the other people who actually did the stuff".
You mean, we should start with the Israeli soldiers who hung around holding the flares so that the Phalange could carry out their atrocities?
And should we then move on to General Amos Yaron? Maybe we will, but I have not begun my Sabra and Shatila project to date. You'll find out when the time comes.
You mean, we should start with the Israeli soldiers who hung around holding the flares so that the Phalange could carry out their atrocities?
And should we then move on to General Amos Yaron? Maybe we will, but I have not begun my Sabra and Shatila project to date. You'll find out when the time comes.
Come down to earth, man. Get a grip, why don't you?
Sharon "punished" by the Israeli Supreme Court? He was brought before the Supreme Court? I have been labouring under the impression that it was the Kahan Inquiry.
Well, I suppose if you call being smacked smarly on the wrist as punishment .....
. . . an Inquiry is not a trial.
"had Elie Hobieka not been blasted to pieces in a car bomb on 24 January 2002.
who do you think was responsible for that, I wonder?"
You could chase him down for that too if you have any proof. go on.
"Are you saying that the Belgium Court is good enough for Arafat, but not for Sharon? Hyposcrisy is alive and well, is it not? God, you make me sick!"
No the belgian court is either good enough for all the people in the world in order of the size of their crime (EGAD that will take a long time) Or its a politicized joke.
By the way Arafat IS a terrorist (surely your not denying that)? he is responsible for all sorts of bad stuff as the leader of fatah and the palistinian "resistance" (which IS worse than this event because he was directly involved) but we are sort of forgiving him for that because he is in charge of palestine and to arest and charge with murder the whole of fatah is just not practical.
"You mean, we should start with the Israeli soldiers who hung around holding the flares so that the Phalange could carry out their atrocities?"
No you should go and find the Phalange.
the "so they could cause their attrocities" part would require the soldiers to KNOW that the phalange were about to commit attrocities this is dificult to prove and I believe unlikely maybe they "should have known" but that is negligence not murder.
Seems you are complaining about the taxi driver who drove one gang to meet another gang. Normal police would try and find the gangs instead.
who do you think was responsible for that, I wonder?"
You could chase him down for that too if you have any proof. go on.
"Are you saying that the Belgium Court is good enough for Arafat, but not for Sharon? Hyposcrisy is alive and well, is it not? God, you make me sick!"
No the belgian court is either good enough for all the people in the world in order of the size of their crime (EGAD that will take a long time) Or its a politicized joke.
By the way Arafat IS a terrorist (surely your not denying that)? he is responsible for all sorts of bad stuff as the leader of fatah and the palistinian "resistance" (which IS worse than this event because he was directly involved) but we are sort of forgiving him for that because he is in charge of palestine and to arest and charge with murder the whole of fatah is just not practical.
"You mean, we should start with the Israeli soldiers who hung around holding the flares so that the Phalange could carry out their atrocities?"
No you should go and find the Phalange.
the "so they could cause their attrocities" part would require the soldiers to KNOW that the phalange were about to commit attrocities this is dificult to prove and I believe unlikely maybe they "should have known" but that is negligence not murder.
Seems you are complaining about the taxi driver who drove one gang to meet another gang. Normal police would try and find the gangs instead.
Don't rush me. My next massacre is not going to be Sabra and Shatila. It's way too recent. It's best to go to the first and move forward, don't you think? It's not like we don't have enough of them for God's sakes. Last night I had a list of 50 plus, and there could be others that I missed.
But let me tell you something. You will have to write reams and reams and reams if you expect anyone with a brain to believe that your beloved Sharon and the Israeli government of the day were without knowledge of this dispicable act of genocide.
In fact, you're wasting your time even dwelling on it right now because it is, as we say, a work in progress.at some point in the future.
and if he did commit the mass acre, would he be inclined to admit it or dispatch Zionist propogandists like "scottie" to deny and point fingers at other Palestinians?
For more information:
http://T OO
Who is? Sharon? Forgive me, but I'm not sure what you're actually saying here.
Sharon may be guilty of some sort of negligence but that in no way says he is guilty of knowingly aranging it. it is up to you to prove that if you can.
When somthing happens is is almost never a huge conspiricy to commit genocide it is almost always a big chain of negligence. For example nuclear plant accidents or power blackouts in new york are usually not the results of terrorists nor are they the result of some evil manager trying to deny power to the cities so that old people will freeze to death they are generally just someone didnt allocate enough funding to someone to maintain somthing etc.
Do you understand? That is why if you only have proof for negligence you should only claim negligence.
He is not by "beloved sharon" either if you think that you havent paid attention I actually was very sad that barak lost. barak was a very smart and able man. But he was defeated not by sharon but by his inability to provide even a token amount of peace (he bet his presidency on it). He was denied it by palistinians who were the people who had the most to loose from his loosing the election.
Anyway have I called arafat your "beloved arafat"?
When somthing happens is is almost never a huge conspiricy to commit genocide it is almost always a big chain of negligence. For example nuclear plant accidents or power blackouts in new york are usually not the results of terrorists nor are they the result of some evil manager trying to deny power to the cities so that old people will freeze to death they are generally just someone didnt allocate enough funding to someone to maintain somthing etc.
Do you understand? That is why if you only have proof for negligence you should only claim negligence.
He is not by "beloved sharon" either if you think that you havent paid attention I actually was very sad that barak lost. barak was a very smart and able man. But he was defeated not by sharon but by his inability to provide even a token amount of peace (he bet his presidency on it). He was denied it by palistinians who were the people who had the most to loose from his loosing the election.
Anyway have I called arafat your "beloved arafat"?
sharon did it, but like all zionists he is not above lying about his complicity.
The fact that zionists like scottie will come and defend their leader is equally expected of them.
those who are able to commit genocides are also able to lie about it after the fact.
it is a shame, that a former noble enterprize established 2 protect the rights of Jews to live free of harrassment has been reduced to protecting the rights of Jews to kill, maim or torture without harrassment.
The fact that zionists like scottie will come and defend their leader is equally expected of them.
those who are able to commit genocides are also able to lie about it after the fact.
it is a shame, that a former noble enterprize established 2 protect the rights of Jews to live free of harrassment has been reduced to protecting the rights of Jews to kill, maim or torture without harrassment.
Shameless provide me with enough evidence to convict him of murder in a court of law and Ill take you seriously. So far no one has done that.
until then Ill asume your just a bigot.
until then Ill asume your just a bigot.
Shameless above made some very interesting remarks that you nastily dismissed.
Next thing you'll be coming on here prattlilng about Sharon as being the dear old grandpa type, "a fiesty warrier" etc.
Which is fine, but there is no justification at all for calling Shameless a "bigot". That's a bit harsh, even for you, isn't it? I am not impressed.
Next thing you'll be coming on here prattlilng about Sharon as being the dear old grandpa type, "a fiesty warrier" etc.
Which is fine, but there is no justification at all for calling Shameless a "bigot". That's a bit harsh, even for you, isn't it? I am not impressed.
look above under
"He is not my "beloved sharon""
then read your own comment.
"He is not my "beloved sharon""
then read your own comment.
Point out specifically what you're attempting to say, Scottie.
I don't ever remember using the word "bigot" at any point in my life, but there's no guarantee I won't.
I can't help but notice whenever I say anything about Sharon the Wicked (my new name for him) you are right there with your partial defence of him. I was under the impression, rightly or wrongly, that you, like Anti Angie, is living in Israel; hence, the "beloved Sharon". He would, after all, be your PM, wouldn't he?
God, what a fate!
In any event it doesn't justify you calling Shameless a bigot. What did he have to say there that caused you grief?
On the other hand, dear God, don't let him answer (she prays). I can only take so much of Scottie in one sitting, and I've had my quota for today.
I don't ever remember using the word "bigot" at any point in my life, but there's no guarantee I won't.
I can't help but notice whenever I say anything about Sharon the Wicked (my new name for him) you are right there with your partial defence of him. I was under the impression, rightly or wrongly, that you, like Anti Angie, is living in Israel; hence, the "beloved Sharon". He would, after all, be your PM, wouldn't he?
God, what a fate!
In any event it doesn't justify you calling Shameless a bigot. What did he have to say there that caused you grief?
On the other hand, dear God, don't let him answer (she prays). I can only take so much of Scottie in one sitting, and I've had my quota for today.
"Point out specifically what you're attempting to say, Scottie."
My post above regarding whether I like sharon. It seems later in this post that you do at least somewhat understand .. so the question is irrelevant.
"I can't help but notice whenever I say anything about Sharon the Wicked (my new name for him) you are right there with your partial defence of him."
That could be because you are partialy wrong (ever considered that?). and since some people here are so biased against jewish leaders I see no reason to "let it slide".
"I was under the impression, rightly or wrongly, that you, like Anti Angie, is living in Israel;"
I dont live in israel. I could go into how you could prove that but my assertation (for the hundredth time) should be enough.
"hence, the "beloved Sharon". He would, after all, be your PM, wouldn't he?"
No he isnt my PM and if he was I would STILL not love him. (egad!) no more than I would love Arafat if he was my pesident.
My post above regarding whether I like sharon. It seems later in this post that you do at least somewhat understand .. so the question is irrelevant.
"I can't help but notice whenever I say anything about Sharon the Wicked (my new name for him) you are right there with your partial defence of him."
That could be because you are partialy wrong (ever considered that?). and since some people here are so biased against jewish leaders I see no reason to "let it slide".
"I was under the impression, rightly or wrongly, that you, like Anti Angie, is living in Israel;"
I dont live in israel. I could go into how you could prove that but my assertation (for the hundredth time) should be enough.
"hence, the "beloved Sharon". He would, after all, be your PM, wouldn't he?"
No he isnt my PM and if he was I would STILL not love him. (egad!) no more than I would love Arafat if he was my pesident.
Angie: "You will have to write reams and reams and reams if you expect anyone with a brain to believe that your beloved Sharon and the Israeli government of the day were without knowledge of this dispicable act of genocide."
You have a brain indeed, but what worth is it when it's housed in a cretin's/junkie's head obssessive about certain conspiracy theories and suffering from cognitive dissonance? Obviously not a damn thing.
Angie: "Shameless above made some very interesting remarks that you nastily dismissed. There is no justification at all for calling Shameless a "bigot"."
Interesting in the way of revealing his unfounded rabid anti-Israeli bias. S/he came on the board, hurling grave accusations at Sharon, Israel and Scottie offering no proof whatsoever
Angie: "I was under the impression, rightly or wrongly, that you, like Anti Angie, is living in Israel; hence, the "beloved Sharon". "
Oh, you reckon if a Jew lives in Israel then s/he automatically holds Sharon as "beloved". How more stupid can a north American get? It's like I establish now you hold your PM in very high esteem without knowing shit about your opinion of him, hence "beloved Jean Chretien". You may feel that way about him, but you may not. I don't know, because you haven't made your opinion on this matter clear.
For what its worth I'm not crazy about Sharon either. But hey, you anti-Zionists/anti-Semites have such a propensity to think that if a Jew residing in Israel is Zionist, or at least not anti-Zionist, then s/he by definition loves Sharon or at the very least supports him. That is the epitomy of doltishness.
You have a brain indeed, but what worth is it when it's housed in a cretin's/junkie's head obssessive about certain conspiracy theories and suffering from cognitive dissonance? Obviously not a damn thing.
Angie: "Shameless above made some very interesting remarks that you nastily dismissed. There is no justification at all for calling Shameless a "bigot"."
Interesting in the way of revealing his unfounded rabid anti-Israeli bias. S/he came on the board, hurling grave accusations at Sharon, Israel and Scottie offering no proof whatsoever
Angie: "I was under the impression, rightly or wrongly, that you, like Anti Angie, is living in Israel; hence, the "beloved Sharon". "
Oh, you reckon if a Jew lives in Israel then s/he automatically holds Sharon as "beloved". How more stupid can a north American get? It's like I establish now you hold your PM in very high esteem without knowing shit about your opinion of him, hence "beloved Jean Chretien". You may feel that way about him, but you may not. I don't know, because you haven't made your opinion on this matter clear.
For what its worth I'm not crazy about Sharon either. But hey, you anti-Zionists/anti-Semites have such a propensity to think that if a Jew residing in Israel is Zionist, or at least not anti-Zionist, then s/he by definition loves Sharon or at the very least supports him. That is the epitomy of doltishness.
If you can write a medium sized post about my comment to Scottie, being "beloved Sharon", I wonder what you'd do with, say, "hey, quick, the sky is falling".
Incidentally, Scottie was on this Board long before I was, and from the beginning he and I have been civilized, we've yelled and screamed, we've iinsulted each other, and we've shared the occasional chuckle. He may irriitate and annoy and infuriate, but he does try , and I sincerely believe he's without malicious intent. He's like family, sir, so anything that is said between Scottie and I will be resolved between Scottie and I. Butt out.
Why don't you find some real issue to deal with? Heavens knows there's plenty of them here. I am not an issue here, so cease trying to make me one.
And frankly, sir, whether you're a jew living in Israel, a zionist living in Israel, a zionist jew living in Isarel, whether you are neither and you live in Tuscany or Paris or Greece, or the Arctic it means tiddly to me.
YOU stated earlier in one of your oh, so friendly speils that you lived in Israel. I'm supposed to be impressed? That is supposed to make me shiver in my slippers here this a.m.? (Well, no, not quite. I don't wear slippers)
So what's next, sir? Death threats? That usually follows when someone is called an "anti semite". We've seen/heard it all before. We know the routine. We are not impressed
In the meantime you might remember 'toujours la politesse".
If you mention me, I make it my business. Got that?
I'm glad you're feeling some heat.
You don't have to be impressed I'm in Israel; I'm just asking you be careful before anointing yourself a self-proclaimed expert on things which have happened in Israel just because you heard it from an acclaimed journalist or someone you ADMIRE (I'll omit the word "guru" if that bothers you) who lives in Israel.
You shouldn't be surprised if you get a less than genteel attitude when I point out your mistakes or lies and you then in effect tell me I don't know jack.
You were the one who had the audacity to tell me to be ashamed of myself for living in Israel and not stopping my country from doing something YOU consider criminal.
You become the issue when you steer the debate toward asinine directions, like it or not.
"And frankly, sir, whether you're a jew living in Israel, a zionist living in Israel, a zionist jew living in Isarel, whether you are neither and you live in Tuscany or Paris or Greece, or the Arctic it means tiddly to me. "
Namely it doesn't matter now that I've scolded your false self-expertise. We'll see how consistent you'll be re this statement of yours.
"So what's next, sir? Death threats? That usually follows when someone is called an "anti semite". We've seen/heard it all before. We know the routine. We are not impressed."
Hahahahaha. One of the very few challenges you pose is to my laughter reflex. Just don't forget to speak for yourself.
I'm glad you're feeling some heat.
You don't have to be impressed I'm in Israel; I'm just asking you be careful before anointing yourself a self-proclaimed expert on things which have happened in Israel just because you heard it from an acclaimed journalist or someone you ADMIRE (I'll omit the word "guru" if that bothers you) who lives in Israel.
You shouldn't be surprised if you get a less than genteel attitude when I point out your mistakes or lies and you then in effect tell me I don't know jack.
You were the one who had the audacity to tell me to be ashamed of myself for living in Israel and not stopping my country from doing something YOU consider criminal.
You become the issue when you steer the debate toward asinine directions, like it or not.
"And frankly, sir, whether you're a jew living in Israel, a zionist living in Israel, a zionist jew living in Isarel, whether you are neither and you live in Tuscany or Paris or Greece, or the Arctic it means tiddly to me. "
Namely it doesn't matter now that I've scolded your false self-expertise. We'll see how consistent you'll be re this statement of yours.
"So what's next, sir? Death threats? That usually follows when someone is called an "anti semite". We've seen/heard it all before. We know the routine. We are not impressed."
Hahahahaha. One of the very few challenges you pose is to my laughter reflex. Just don't forget to speak for yourself.
Considering you came on here in your attack mode as if you were the devil incarnate before anyone mentioned you, or knew about you, or cared about you that's really an explanation.to ignore with the disdain it deserves.
You wouldn't laugh, we would expect, if laughter hit you in the side of the head. You would probably hit it right back.
In fact, one could say your only challenge is to become nastier with each post. AND LOUD!
You overexaggereate your own importance...
You may have a few friends here and in Israel and feel you're sitting on the world's pedestal. But that hardly puts you on the top of the world.
You may think of yourself as an institution, yet 90% of your utterings are pathetic jokes.
Look, you've bored me on this thread. Let's knock it off here and move to another thread 'cause this bickering leads nowhere.
Here's what I offer: you and I refrain from further commenting on this thread at least for the time being, and I won't yell at you to run along and go away.
You accept? Thank you.
You may have a few friends here and in Israel and feel you're sitting on the world's pedestal. But that hardly puts you on the top of the world.
You may think of yourself as an institution, yet 90% of your utterings are pathetic jokes.
Look, you've bored me on this thread. Let's knock it off here and move to another thread 'cause this bickering leads nowhere.
Here's what I offer: you and I refrain from further commenting on this thread at least for the time being, and I won't yell at you to run along and go away.
You accept? Thank you.
Don't be daft, sir. My importance is exaggerated for me by others.
I'm sorry, AA, but I've only been here approximately 5 months, so it hardly constitutes an institution. Besides I'm laughing so much I can barely breathe. One could call me breathless in Canada!
OOOPPPS! Just read your last paragraph there! Ignore the above.
Let's see. You've bored me in this thread too! That's an astonishing coincidence, AA.
What's this? Are you inviting me to toddle along with you to another thread? You're offering, shall we say, the proverbial olive branch? Gee, I'm somewhat choked up here. This is all so unexpected.
But I'm game. You want to wait while I stop by the Rachel Corrie Video thread and see what my dear Concerned Zionist is up to? I'll meet you there.
You're welcome!!
PS (And some of you out there have accused me of being anti Israel! Ye'ah, sure, and who else amongst you is about to embark on a journey through the SF Indymedia threads with an Israeli lad?? Eat your bleeding hearts out!)
I'm sorry, AA, but I've only been here approximately 5 months, so it hardly constitutes an institution. Besides I'm laughing so much I can barely breathe. One could call me breathless in Canada!
OOOPPPS! Just read your last paragraph there! Ignore the above.
Let's see. You've bored me in this thread too! That's an astonishing coincidence, AA.
What's this? Are you inviting me to toddle along with you to another thread? You're offering, shall we say, the proverbial olive branch? Gee, I'm somewhat choked up here. This is all so unexpected.
But I'm game. You want to wait while I stop by the Rachel Corrie Video thread and see what my dear Concerned Zionist is up to? I'll meet you there.
You're welcome!!
PS (And some of you out there have accused me of being anti Israel! Ye'ah, sure, and who else amongst you is about to embark on a journey through the SF Indymedia threads with an Israeli lad?? Eat your bleeding hearts out!)
Bump to the top.
I am at my wits end. I want to know what the hell this massacre is about, but I can't find anything anywhere except a brief reference to it in Uri Avnery's biography (he had the nerve to criticize same and had both hands broken!)
Is it called something else? Anyone want to enlighten me? Thanks!
Is it called something else? Anyone want to enlighten me? Thanks!
maybe they broke everyone elses hands also.
That's a good one!
You've been noticeably absent from these threads for a while, have you not? Or is it just that I'm not looking in all the right places??
Actually it's referred to as the "infamous Kibieh massacre of 1953". Maybe it's so infamous it was wiped off the books or whatever. It's strange, however, that I can find nothing about it except in Uri's bio.
You've been noticeably absent from these threads for a while, have you not? Or is it just that I'm not looking in all the right places??
Actually it's referred to as the "infamous Kibieh massacre of 1953". Maybe it's so infamous it was wiped off the books or whatever. It's strange, however, that I can find nothing about it except in Uri's bio.
So even Avneri's bio doesn't elaborate, hmmm? This is a bad omen to you.
Ye'ah, I suppose I could always ask him, yes?
Guess there's no point in asking you? No?
Guess there's no point in asking you? No?
We are 100% volunteer and depend on your participation to sustain our efforts!
Donate
$140.00 donated
in the past month
Get Involved
If you'd like to help with maintaining or developing the website, contact us.
Publish
Publish your stories and upcoming events on Indybay.
Topics
More
Search Indybay's Archives
Advanced Search
►
▼
IMC Network