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Zionism Is The Root Problem
Zionism! An ideology that is antithetical to Judaism, one fomented by unabashed atheists, heretics and even some ostensibly “religious” collaborators who have sold their souls to the irreligious Zionists for money and power.
Speech by Rabbi Yisroel P. Feldman of Neturei Karta Int.at the rally hosted by the New England Committee to Defend Palestine, to protest the "Boston Celebrates Israel Festival" in Boston, Mass. on Sunday, June 15, 2003
With God’s help may the words that we speak here today sanctify God’s name and may it bring peace and brotherhood amongst His creations.
A – salaam aleikum
We have come to Boston today to protest the celebration of the founding of the blasphemous and heretical Zionist state taking place here. We represent Torah true Jews who remain loyal to authentic Judaism, who know that the root cause of the conflict and instability plaguing the Middle East, and hence the entire world, is the heresy against G d called Zionism, and the heinous crimes committed in the name of its illegitimate “State of Israel”.
Zionism! An ideology that is antithetical to Judaism, one fomented by unabashed atheists, heretics and even some ostensibly “religious” collaborators who have sold their souls to the irreligious Zionists for money and power.
The founding of the Zionist state is in direct contradiction to the teachings of the Torah, which forbids the establishment of a Jewish state and commands Jews to remain in exile until they are released therefrom by G-d himself, without any human intervention, at which time all nations of the world will live together in peace, and serve their Creator in unity.
Two thousand years ago, at the time of the Temple’s destruction, the Jewish people were forbidden by the Creator (Tractate Ketuboth 111a)
To go up en masse to the Holy Land
To rebel against the nations
To in any way attempt to end the exile
Jews faithful to the Torah are enjoined by the Torah to conduct themselves as loyal, upright and grateful citizens in their host countries throughout the world.
The Torah commands us to emulate G-d and to be compassionate. We are forbidden to unlawfully expropriate land, to subjugate or to oppress another people. Therefore we protest and mourn the murder, deportation, subjugation, and oppression of the Palestinian people by the Zionist hooligans who invaded their homeland, in violation of the Torah, and have caused so much needless suffering. The list of their crimes is endless.
The cause of the past, current and, G-d forbid, future suffering is the aforementioned rebellion against G-d. The tragic and seemingly intractable conflict in the Middle East is directly attributable to the wicked actions of the Zionist regime against the indigenous population of Palestine, against whom the Zionists have been waging war for more than a century. Thus, the only solution to bring about peace and harmony is not more war and strife, but rather regime change in historic Palestine! The Torah’s solution to this dilemma would be for the world community to actively work towards the dismantling of the illicit Zionist regime and the restoration of full Palestinian sovereignty over the whole of Palestine. We firmly believe that such a solution would not result in Jews being slaughtered indiscriminately by the Palestinians. In fact, the very existence of the Zionist state endangers Jewish lives because it constitutes an open rebellion against G-d. Only when the Palestinian people return to their homeland as a sovereign nation and only when the scourge of the racist Zionist occupation has been removed from the sacred soil of Palestine will Jews and Arabs once again live in peace and harmony, as they have done for so many centuries, prior to the inception of Zionism some 100 years ago. Only when the Palestinian refugees are allowed to return to their native soil will there be peace in the Holy Land!
It is a hollow mockery and a desecration of everything sacred to Judaism that the Zionist heretics base their specious claims to the Holy Land on the Bible, justifying their mass invasion, colonization, expropriation and displacement of the native inhabitants of Palestine, who, according to the Torah, are entitled to sovereignty over the whole of their native homeland.
By establishing the “state of Israel”, the Zionists have openly rebelled against the will of G-d’s and the laws of the Torah and thereby have caused immense pain and immeasurable suffering to both Jews and non-Jews. At occasions like this where people celebrate the establishment of the state of “Israel”, Torah true Jews lament the invidious attempts by the Zionists to transform Judaism from a religion into a secular, hypernationalistic and fundamentally racist creed and their sinister efforts to uproot the Torah’s teachings from the Jewish people.
We mourn the pernicious effects Zionism has had on the Jewish people and the Holy Land, including the ongoing desecration of the Sabbath, the introduction of immodest dress, and immoral media into Jewish society, and a litany of violations against many of the laws of our faith, not the least of which is the commandment to be compassionate toward our fellow man.
The United Nations acquiesced to the establishment of the Zionist state in the aftermath of World War II with good intentions of providing assistance and shelter to persecuted Jews. Yet Zionism and Israel have been a curse and source of suffering for the Jewish people ever since! Where else have so many Jews died since World War II if not in the Zionist state? All because of the craven ambition of the Zionists for power in their brazen defiance of the teachings and values of Judaism! Anyone with even the slightest knowledge of history and current events knows that the Zionist state has been one of the greatest tragedies for the Jewish people, creating conflict with Muslims and Arabs, with whom Jews have lived in peace and harmony for many centuries throughout the world from Morocco to Iraq, from Casablanca to Baghdad!
Judaism is not Zionism! Judaism is the faith of the Jewish people in G-d and His Torah. Zionism is the racist anti-Jewish ideology of a band of gangsters who managed to deceive so many Jews into thinking that only they can protect Jews from external threats to their existence. These criminals are known to have actively encouraged anti-Jewish feeling throughout the world in order to compel Jews to immigrate to the Zionist state as a safe haven. Need we remind ourselves of what the Zionists did to fool Jews in Yemen, Iraq and Egypt into moving to their state by planting bombs in synagogues, assassinating innocent Jews and beguiling G-d-fearing Jews with their false proclamations that the Messianic era had arrived and that the promised ingathering of the exiles had begun?
Anti-Jewish prejudice is the lifeblood of Zionism! Without it, Zionism could not survive! Zionism seeks to label anyone opposing its policies as “anti-Semitic,” which is utterly false, both logically and factually!
We implore the Jewish people to return to G-d and His Torah, to totally disavow the blatant heresy of Zionism and its so-called “State of Israel”. Repent and return! G-d and his Torah are waiting for you. Only in this manner will G-d stop punishing us. Only with the Jewish people's collective rejection of Zionism will the tragic reports of carnage and terror in the Holy Land cease.
We beseech the Muslim community not to make the tragic mistake of equating Judaism with Zionism. You must know that they are in fact two extreme opposites. Do not accuse the Jewish people of being Zionists. Do not accuse the Jewish people of being your enemies. The fact is that the Jewish people commiserate with your suffering. The Jewish people truly feel your pain. We are totally embarrassed, horrified, and pained by the actions of our wayward brothers. Let us recall our past friendship and let us work to restore it.
We plead with the honorable leaders of the great powers to carefully consider the underlying reasons for the anger and conflict in the Holy Land! It is of the utmost urgency that leaders realize and acknowledge that the true source of this is the injustice committed the creation of a Zionists State!
We who are loyal to our Torah and the teachings of our authentic rabbis throughout history pray and yearn for the speedy and peaceful dismantling of this Zionist State of “Israel”. We anxiously await the day of messianic redemption when the entire world will serve G-d in brotherhood and harmony.
As the prophet Isaiah says (11:9):
“For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the L-rd, as waters cover the sea.”
And as the Psalmist declares that one day all nations will unite in the service of G-d (Psalms 102:23):
“…when the people are gathered together, and the kingdoms, to serve the L-rd.”
And finally, as Jews each year on Rosh HaShannah express their desire for mankind to recognize the Creator and to worship Him in brotherhood and unity
“…and they will be joined in one united group to do Your will wholeheartedly.” Amen.
http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/anthem.cfm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Copyright 2003, Neturei Karta International.
With God’s help may the words that we speak here today sanctify God’s name and may it bring peace and brotherhood amongst His creations.
A – salaam aleikum
We have come to Boston today to protest the celebration of the founding of the blasphemous and heretical Zionist state taking place here. We represent Torah true Jews who remain loyal to authentic Judaism, who know that the root cause of the conflict and instability plaguing the Middle East, and hence the entire world, is the heresy against G d called Zionism, and the heinous crimes committed in the name of its illegitimate “State of Israel”.
Zionism! An ideology that is antithetical to Judaism, one fomented by unabashed atheists, heretics and even some ostensibly “religious” collaborators who have sold their souls to the irreligious Zionists for money and power.
The founding of the Zionist state is in direct contradiction to the teachings of the Torah, which forbids the establishment of a Jewish state and commands Jews to remain in exile until they are released therefrom by G-d himself, without any human intervention, at which time all nations of the world will live together in peace, and serve their Creator in unity.
Two thousand years ago, at the time of the Temple’s destruction, the Jewish people were forbidden by the Creator (Tractate Ketuboth 111a)
To go up en masse to the Holy Land
To rebel against the nations
To in any way attempt to end the exile
Jews faithful to the Torah are enjoined by the Torah to conduct themselves as loyal, upright and grateful citizens in their host countries throughout the world.
The Torah commands us to emulate G-d and to be compassionate. We are forbidden to unlawfully expropriate land, to subjugate or to oppress another people. Therefore we protest and mourn the murder, deportation, subjugation, and oppression of the Palestinian people by the Zionist hooligans who invaded their homeland, in violation of the Torah, and have caused so much needless suffering. The list of their crimes is endless.
The cause of the past, current and, G-d forbid, future suffering is the aforementioned rebellion against G-d. The tragic and seemingly intractable conflict in the Middle East is directly attributable to the wicked actions of the Zionist regime against the indigenous population of Palestine, against whom the Zionists have been waging war for more than a century. Thus, the only solution to bring about peace and harmony is not more war and strife, but rather regime change in historic Palestine! The Torah’s solution to this dilemma would be for the world community to actively work towards the dismantling of the illicit Zionist regime and the restoration of full Palestinian sovereignty over the whole of Palestine. We firmly believe that such a solution would not result in Jews being slaughtered indiscriminately by the Palestinians. In fact, the very existence of the Zionist state endangers Jewish lives because it constitutes an open rebellion against G-d. Only when the Palestinian people return to their homeland as a sovereign nation and only when the scourge of the racist Zionist occupation has been removed from the sacred soil of Palestine will Jews and Arabs once again live in peace and harmony, as they have done for so many centuries, prior to the inception of Zionism some 100 years ago. Only when the Palestinian refugees are allowed to return to their native soil will there be peace in the Holy Land!
It is a hollow mockery and a desecration of everything sacred to Judaism that the Zionist heretics base their specious claims to the Holy Land on the Bible, justifying their mass invasion, colonization, expropriation and displacement of the native inhabitants of Palestine, who, according to the Torah, are entitled to sovereignty over the whole of their native homeland.
By establishing the “state of Israel”, the Zionists have openly rebelled against the will of G-d’s and the laws of the Torah and thereby have caused immense pain and immeasurable suffering to both Jews and non-Jews. At occasions like this where people celebrate the establishment of the state of “Israel”, Torah true Jews lament the invidious attempts by the Zionists to transform Judaism from a religion into a secular, hypernationalistic and fundamentally racist creed and their sinister efforts to uproot the Torah’s teachings from the Jewish people.
We mourn the pernicious effects Zionism has had on the Jewish people and the Holy Land, including the ongoing desecration of the Sabbath, the introduction of immodest dress, and immoral media into Jewish society, and a litany of violations against many of the laws of our faith, not the least of which is the commandment to be compassionate toward our fellow man.
The United Nations acquiesced to the establishment of the Zionist state in the aftermath of World War II with good intentions of providing assistance and shelter to persecuted Jews. Yet Zionism and Israel have been a curse and source of suffering for the Jewish people ever since! Where else have so many Jews died since World War II if not in the Zionist state? All because of the craven ambition of the Zionists for power in their brazen defiance of the teachings and values of Judaism! Anyone with even the slightest knowledge of history and current events knows that the Zionist state has been one of the greatest tragedies for the Jewish people, creating conflict with Muslims and Arabs, with whom Jews have lived in peace and harmony for many centuries throughout the world from Morocco to Iraq, from Casablanca to Baghdad!
Judaism is not Zionism! Judaism is the faith of the Jewish people in G-d and His Torah. Zionism is the racist anti-Jewish ideology of a band of gangsters who managed to deceive so many Jews into thinking that only they can protect Jews from external threats to their existence. These criminals are known to have actively encouraged anti-Jewish feeling throughout the world in order to compel Jews to immigrate to the Zionist state as a safe haven. Need we remind ourselves of what the Zionists did to fool Jews in Yemen, Iraq and Egypt into moving to their state by planting bombs in synagogues, assassinating innocent Jews and beguiling G-d-fearing Jews with their false proclamations that the Messianic era had arrived and that the promised ingathering of the exiles had begun?
Anti-Jewish prejudice is the lifeblood of Zionism! Without it, Zionism could not survive! Zionism seeks to label anyone opposing its policies as “anti-Semitic,” which is utterly false, both logically and factually!
We implore the Jewish people to return to G-d and His Torah, to totally disavow the blatant heresy of Zionism and its so-called “State of Israel”. Repent and return! G-d and his Torah are waiting for you. Only in this manner will G-d stop punishing us. Only with the Jewish people's collective rejection of Zionism will the tragic reports of carnage and terror in the Holy Land cease.
We beseech the Muslim community not to make the tragic mistake of equating Judaism with Zionism. You must know that they are in fact two extreme opposites. Do not accuse the Jewish people of being Zionists. Do not accuse the Jewish people of being your enemies. The fact is that the Jewish people commiserate with your suffering. The Jewish people truly feel your pain. We are totally embarrassed, horrified, and pained by the actions of our wayward brothers. Let us recall our past friendship and let us work to restore it.
We plead with the honorable leaders of the great powers to carefully consider the underlying reasons for the anger and conflict in the Holy Land! It is of the utmost urgency that leaders realize and acknowledge that the true source of this is the injustice committed the creation of a Zionists State!
We who are loyal to our Torah and the teachings of our authentic rabbis throughout history pray and yearn for the speedy and peaceful dismantling of this Zionist State of “Israel”. We anxiously await the day of messianic redemption when the entire world will serve G-d in brotherhood and harmony.
As the prophet Isaiah says (11:9):
“For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the L-rd, as waters cover the sea.”
And as the Psalmist declares that one day all nations will unite in the service of G-d (Psalms 102:23):
“…when the people are gathered together, and the kingdoms, to serve the L-rd.”
And finally, as Jews each year on Rosh HaShannah express their desire for mankind to recognize the Creator and to worship Him in brotherhood and unity
“…and they will be joined in one united group to do Your will wholeheartedly.” Amen.
http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/anthem.cfm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Copyright 2003, Neturei Karta International.
For more information:
http://www.nkusa.org/activities/Speeches/B...
Add Your Comments
Comments
(Hide Comments)
Well People love to put "ism" on thing they want to demonize.
Naturei Karta, are not left anti-Zionists like say, Norman Finkelstein,
who wrote, "The Holocaust Industry, " http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/ and
Lenni Brenner http://www.marxists.de/middleast/brenner/
who has done great work unearthing scathing documentary evidence
http://www.counterpunch.org/brenner1223.html
of the collaboration of far right Zionists like Begin and Shamir, then of
the Sern Gang/Irgun (the predecessors of Sharon's Likud) but, have many,
many times appeared at conferences organized by neo-fascists of The
Spotlight now The American Free Press, and the Holocaust
Denialist/Revisionists of the Institute for Historical Review of Willis
Carto. (IHR has conferences where such as neo-Nazi historian David Irving
speak.Carto is a follower of the fascist intellectual, Francis Parker
Yockey, http://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/2001/08/GOLDNER/15521
"Dreamer of the Day. Francis Parker Yockey and the Postwar Fascist
International."
http://www.google.com/search?=Neturei+Karta+American+Free+Press
http://stegall.org/neal/new_republic_-_karta_befor.html
> ...The group has even called the Holocaust God's punishment...
AMERICAN REVOLUTIONARY ... ... American Free Press. Populist/Nationalist
site operated by veteran rightwing figure
Willis Carto. ... Feminism without the state. Free-Market.Net. ... Neturei
Karta. ... http://www.attackthesystem.com/links.html
The Dhimmi Guy
... here in America who are followers of the Neturei Karta (small but ...
junk can be found
on the fascist website The Institute of Historical Review renowned for ...
http://www.dhimmiguy.blogspot.com
LEWIS BRANDON: A Note From The Editor
... Orthodox leaders such as Rabbi Moshe Hirsch of the Neturei Karta sect
maintain
that ... LEWIS BRANDON Director: Institute for Historical Review Editor:
The ... http://www.vho.org/GB/Journals/JHR/2/1/Brandon4-6.html
Antisemitism Worldwide 2000/1 - United States
... Neturei Karta members also showed up at the MFM. ... Holocaust denial
groups such as
the Institute for Historical Review and the Committee for Open Debate on
... http://www.tau.ac.il/Anti-Semitism/asw2000-1/usa.htm
[PDF]Harbingers of Change in the Antisemitic Discourse in the Arab ... File
Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
... He sets out in detail historical research findings ... a request to the
Islamic Research
Institute from the ... of the world Jewish group Neturei Karta.(31) *Yigal
...
http://www.memri.de/uebersetzungen_analysen/themen/antisemitismus/
as_harbingers_07_05_03.pdf
Michael Pugliese
On Fri, 27 Jun 2003 10:28:04 -0500, Debi Clark <debiclark [at] satx.rr.com>
wrote:
> Speech by Rabbi Yisroel P. Feldman of Neturei Karta Int.at the rally
> hosted by the New England Committee to Defend Palestine, to protest the
> "Boston Celebrates Israel Festival" in Boston, Mass. on Sunday, June 15,
> 2003
>
> http://www.indybay.org/print.php?id=1622438
>
>
> With God's help may the words that we speak here today sanctify God's
> name and may it bring peace and brotherhood amongst His creations. A -
> salaam aleikum. We have come to Boston today to protest the celebration
> of the founding of the blasphemous and heretical Zionist state taking
> place here. (continued on site)
>
>
--
Michael Pugliese
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
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who wrote, "The Holocaust Industry, " http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/ and
Lenni Brenner http://www.marxists.de/middleast/brenner/
who has done great work unearthing scathing documentary evidence
http://www.counterpunch.org/brenner1223.html
of the collaboration of far right Zionists like Begin and Shamir, then of
the Sern Gang/Irgun (the predecessors of Sharon's Likud) but, have many,
many times appeared at conferences organized by neo-fascists of The
Spotlight now The American Free Press, and the Holocaust
Denialist/Revisionists of the Institute for Historical Review of Willis
Carto. (IHR has conferences where such as neo-Nazi historian David Irving
speak.Carto is a follower of the fascist intellectual, Francis Parker
Yockey, http://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/2001/08/GOLDNER/15521
"Dreamer of the Day. Francis Parker Yockey and the Postwar Fascist
International."
http://www.google.com/search?=Neturei+Karta+American+Free+Press
http://stegall.org/neal/new_republic_-_karta_befor.html
> ...The group has even called the Holocaust God's punishment...
AMERICAN REVOLUTIONARY ... ... American Free Press. Populist/Nationalist
site operated by veteran rightwing figure
Willis Carto. ... Feminism without the state. Free-Market.Net. ... Neturei
Karta. ... http://www.attackthesystem.com/links.html
The Dhimmi Guy
... here in America who are followers of the Neturei Karta (small but ...
junk can be found
on the fascist website The Institute of Historical Review renowned for ...
http://www.dhimmiguy.blogspot.com
LEWIS BRANDON: A Note From The Editor
... Orthodox leaders such as Rabbi Moshe Hirsch of the Neturei Karta sect
maintain
that ... LEWIS BRANDON Director: Institute for Historical Review Editor:
The ... http://www.vho.org/GB/Journals/JHR/2/1/Brandon4-6.html
Antisemitism Worldwide 2000/1 - United States
... Neturei Karta members also showed up at the MFM. ... Holocaust denial
groups such as
the Institute for Historical Review and the Committee for Open Debate on
... http://www.tau.ac.il/Anti-Semitism/asw2000-1/usa.htm
[PDF]Harbingers of Change in the Antisemitic Discourse in the Arab ... File
Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
... He sets out in detail historical research findings ... a request to the
Islamic Research
Institute from the ... of the world Jewish group Neturei Karta.(31) *Yigal
...
http://www.memri.de/uebersetzungen_analysen/themen/antisemitismus/
as_harbingers_07_05_03.pdf
Michael Pugliese
On Fri, 27 Jun 2003 10:28:04 -0500, Debi Clark <debiclark [at] satx.rr.com>
wrote:
> Speech by Rabbi Yisroel P. Feldman of Neturei Karta Int.at the rally
> hosted by the New England Committee to Defend Palestine, to protest the
> "Boston Celebrates Israel Festival" in Boston, Mass. on Sunday, June 15,
> 2003
>
> http://www.indybay.org/print.php?id=1622438
>
>
> With God's help may the words that we speak here today sanctify God's
> name and may it bring peace and brotherhood amongst His creations. A -
> salaam aleikum. We have come to Boston today to protest the celebration
> of the founding of the blasphemous and heretical Zionist state taking
> place here. (continued on site)
>
>
--
Michael Pugliese
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important
Questions.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/nJ9qlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
TruePatriotsUnite-unsubscribe [at] yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
"Uhh, yeah, the nerve of jews, establishing their self-determination in the same way that about 75% of earth did. THe ottoman empire controlled that region for hundreds of years, then britain did, then jordan was formed on 80% of that territory, israel was formed on about half of the remaining 20%. Some nerve! "
Populations have moved a lot throughout history but I dont think most people would sya they support the genocide of N Afghanistan by the Mongolians, or the genocide by the Spanish in the new world.
As for the Ottoman Empire... it was ruled by Turks (who had moved from NW China over the previous several hundred years) but only parts of what is now Turkey were really colonized in terms of a new population moving in.
"The territory of Palestine under Ottoman rule was composed of two areas. The Independent Sanjak (district) of Jerusalem was subject to the High Porte in Constantinople. Rhe Sanjak extended from Jaffa to the River Jordan in the East and from the Jordan south to the borders of Egypt. The other area was part of the Willayat (province) of Beirut.
This part was composed of the Sanjak of Balka (Nablus) from Jaffa to Jenin, and the Sanjak of Acre, which extended from Jenin to Naqura."
The provinces under the Ottomans corresponded rougly to the ethnic groups that lived in the area.
[Note that Iraq was three provinces (Kurd is the north, Sunni Arab in the middle around Baghdad and Shiite Arabs in the south) and it was partly the way the Brits appointed a dictator/king over these three area that has caused many of Iraqs current/future problems]
To assume Israel should have 20% or even 5% of the Ottoman empire would make as much sense as asking why the Kurds couldnt get 1/2 of Greece (its was small percentage of the Ottoman empire) or why the English shouldnt be given control of Albania. There were people living in what is now Israel who were displaced by the establishment of Israel (and the refusal of new new state to accept back the refugees). The West Bank and Gaza are almost completely Palestinian and to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians from that area would be a crime against humanity.
Sure, states are arbitrary and I wouldn't be opposed to Israel even rulling the West Bank and Gaza if it gave all the people living in those areas equal rights (to vote etc..) with the rest of those in Israel. But Israel accepts many Russians as new citizens (and even encourages them to live in settlements in the West Bank) while refusing the native population the right to return or those living in the Gaza and West Bank (who are not settlers) to vote!!
Basically, if you are Jewish and from Russian you can get full Israeli citizenship (including voting rights), move to Israel and live in an armed camp in the West Bank. But if you are a Palestinian whose parents, grandparents and great grandparentfs lived in Israel proper, you must live in a refugee camp, cant vote and cant even drive on many of the new roads being build in the West Bank.
Populations have moved a lot throughout history but I dont think most people would sya they support the genocide of N Afghanistan by the Mongolians, or the genocide by the Spanish in the new world.
As for the Ottoman Empire... it was ruled by Turks (who had moved from NW China over the previous several hundred years) but only parts of what is now Turkey were really colonized in terms of a new population moving in.
"The territory of Palestine under Ottoman rule was composed of two areas. The Independent Sanjak (district) of Jerusalem was subject to the High Porte in Constantinople. Rhe Sanjak extended from Jaffa to the River Jordan in the East and from the Jordan south to the borders of Egypt. The other area was part of the Willayat (province) of Beirut.
This part was composed of the Sanjak of Balka (Nablus) from Jaffa to Jenin, and the Sanjak of Acre, which extended from Jenin to Naqura."
The provinces under the Ottomans corresponded rougly to the ethnic groups that lived in the area.
[Note that Iraq was three provinces (Kurd is the north, Sunni Arab in the middle around Baghdad and Shiite Arabs in the south) and it was partly the way the Brits appointed a dictator/king over these three area that has caused many of Iraqs current/future problems]
To assume Israel should have 20% or even 5% of the Ottoman empire would make as much sense as asking why the Kurds couldnt get 1/2 of Greece (its was small percentage of the Ottoman empire) or why the English shouldnt be given control of Albania. There were people living in what is now Israel who were displaced by the establishment of Israel (and the refusal of new new state to accept back the refugees). The West Bank and Gaza are almost completely Palestinian and to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians from that area would be a crime against humanity.
Sure, states are arbitrary and I wouldn't be opposed to Israel even rulling the West Bank and Gaza if it gave all the people living in those areas equal rights (to vote etc..) with the rest of those in Israel. But Israel accepts many Russians as new citizens (and even encourages them to live in settlements in the West Bank) while refusing the native population the right to return or those living in the Gaza and West Bank (who are not settlers) to vote!!
Basically, if you are Jewish and from Russian you can get full Israeli citizenship (including voting rights), move to Israel and live in an armed camp in the West Bank. But if you are a Palestinian whose parents, grandparents and great grandparentfs lived in Israel proper, you must live in a refugee camp, cant vote and cant even drive on many of the new roads being build in the West Bank.
American Free Press at http://www.americanfreepress.net is one of the ONLY newspapers in the whole USA who will directly confront the racism of apartheid Israel and Zionists.
So, they have some connection with the Institute for Historical Review which publishes some books about the Holocaust, splitting hairs about some of the exagerrations about it that the Zionists have put forth for public consumption to use as a political tool and a license to kill Palestinians and anyone who doesn't agree with them. AS IF Zionists aren' t SUPREME revisionists of history themselves! Ha ha ha! "A land without a people for a people without a land" Ha ha ha ha
The way the Zionists in this country and elsewhere carry on, you'd think the Jews were the only ones who have ever been persecuted, and that they have suffered the most and that their suffering is more important than everyone else's, of course most especially more important than the Palestinians who the Zionists try to pretend never existed, don't exist, OOPS until there's a suicide bomber!
So, they have some connection with the Institute for Historical Review which publishes some books about the Holocaust, splitting hairs about some of the exagerrations about it that the Zionists have put forth for public consumption to use as a political tool and a license to kill Palestinians and anyone who doesn't agree with them. AS IF Zionists aren' t SUPREME revisionists of history themselves! Ha ha ha! "A land without a people for a people without a land" Ha ha ha ha
The way the Zionists in this country and elsewhere carry on, you'd think the Jews were the only ones who have ever been persecuted, and that they have suffered the most and that their suffering is more important than everyone else's, of course most especially more important than the Palestinians who the Zionists try to pretend never existed, don't exist, OOPS until there's a suicide bomber!
The Road Map everyone is working on right now calls for a two State Solution...
There are some 5,000,000 Jewish People in the area involved.
Borders have always changed look at the U.S.S.R. (very recent hisorty).
Many Arab States have said they would recongnize Israel if the Palestinian People got their State in West Bank and Gaza.
Possible Solution to the Problem:
For there to be Peace and for there to be a reason for the Palestinian People to stop their fight for Freedom:
We need a Palestinian State with Reasonable Border NOW...
Send in a Joint, U.S., U.N. Peace keeping Force to the West Bank and Gaza for the sole purpose of trying to avoid conflicts between the Palestinian and the settlers..
Then have the Biased (biased because they will always be on the side of the settlers) Israeli Military retreat to the pre 1967 Israeli Borders, They can then concentrate their effort on guarding this Border..
(MAHMOUD ABBAS HAS SAID MORE THEN ONCE THAT HE WANTS U.S. OBSERVERS THERE, THAT IS THE ONLY WAY, THAT THE TRUTH OF WHAT IS REALLY OCCURRING WILL BE BELIEVED BY THE U.S. GOVERNMENT.)
Example of a possible solution:
SET THE BORDERS BACK TO 1967...
In return the Refugees have no Right of Return inside the 1967 Israeli Borders..
One complaint that Israel has is that the Right of Return will result in two Palestinian States, (The Right of return is almost impossible any way because the land and homes they lost are now built up with Jewish homes businesses etc…)
The Refugees can be helped to settle somewhere in the new Palestinian State..
The Settlements are now part of Palestine...
If the some 300,000 Israeli Settlers living in Palestine do not like living there, they can move to Israel...
If the 1,000,000 or so Palestinians who now live in Israel do not like living in Israel, they can move to Palestine...
If 1,000,000 or so Palestinians can live in Israel, then some 300,000 Israeli Settlers can live in Palestine if they choose to stay..
If you take Israel, West Bank and Gaza, West Bank and Gaza is only 22% of the total area in Question, This small amount is not too much to ask for millions of Palestinians who must have their freedom to have a peaceful life.
If this solution was implemented there is a good chance the so called terrorist (seen as freedom fighters by the oppressed Palestinian People) would stop their fight, if not they would be very foolish because then Israel would have a just cause to fight back and the U.S. would have a just cause to help Israel fight back.
Otherwise we will continue to have:
Israel: We have to confiscate Palestinian land and demolish Palestinian homes because there are suicide bombers???
Palestine: We have to defend ourselves because Israel is slowly confiscating all our land and demolishing our homes. We have no military to defend ourselves and our land. If we do nothing, we will soon have nothing at all???
The era of colonization is past,. We can not expect to oppress millions of Palestinian People and still have peace.
West Bank and Gaza are only 22% of what is TODAY, Israel, West Bank and Gaza.
PLEASE LOOK AT THE MAP IN THE FOLLOWING WEB PAGE:
The Orange areas are Israeli settlements in the already small 22% that is West Bank and Gaza. What kind of carved up mess will the Palestinian State be unless all the settlements are removed (which will probably never happen) or just make the settlements part of the New Palestinian State (which can happen right now)??
CLICK HERE > http://mondediplo.com/maps/IMG/artoff3260.jpg
There are some 5,000,000 Jewish People in the area involved.
Borders have always changed look at the U.S.S.R. (very recent hisorty).
Many Arab States have said they would recongnize Israel if the Palestinian People got their State in West Bank and Gaza.
Possible Solution to the Problem:
For there to be Peace and for there to be a reason for the Palestinian People to stop their fight for Freedom:
We need a Palestinian State with Reasonable Border NOW...
Send in a Joint, U.S., U.N. Peace keeping Force to the West Bank and Gaza for the sole purpose of trying to avoid conflicts between the Palestinian and the settlers..
Then have the Biased (biased because they will always be on the side of the settlers) Israeli Military retreat to the pre 1967 Israeli Borders, They can then concentrate their effort on guarding this Border..
(MAHMOUD ABBAS HAS SAID MORE THEN ONCE THAT HE WANTS U.S. OBSERVERS THERE, THAT IS THE ONLY WAY, THAT THE TRUTH OF WHAT IS REALLY OCCURRING WILL BE BELIEVED BY THE U.S. GOVERNMENT.)
Example of a possible solution:
SET THE BORDERS BACK TO 1967...
In return the Refugees have no Right of Return inside the 1967 Israeli Borders..
One complaint that Israel has is that the Right of Return will result in two Palestinian States, (The Right of return is almost impossible any way because the land and homes they lost are now built up with Jewish homes businesses etc…)
The Refugees can be helped to settle somewhere in the new Palestinian State..
The Settlements are now part of Palestine...
If the some 300,000 Israeli Settlers living in Palestine do not like living there, they can move to Israel...
If the 1,000,000 or so Palestinians who now live in Israel do not like living in Israel, they can move to Palestine...
If 1,000,000 or so Palestinians can live in Israel, then some 300,000 Israeli Settlers can live in Palestine if they choose to stay..
If you take Israel, West Bank and Gaza, West Bank and Gaza is only 22% of the total area in Question, This small amount is not too much to ask for millions of Palestinians who must have their freedom to have a peaceful life.
If this solution was implemented there is a good chance the so called terrorist (seen as freedom fighters by the oppressed Palestinian People) would stop their fight, if not they would be very foolish because then Israel would have a just cause to fight back and the U.S. would have a just cause to help Israel fight back.
Otherwise we will continue to have:
Israel: We have to confiscate Palestinian land and demolish Palestinian homes because there are suicide bombers???
Palestine: We have to defend ourselves because Israel is slowly confiscating all our land and demolishing our homes. We have no military to defend ourselves and our land. If we do nothing, we will soon have nothing at all???
The era of colonization is past,. We can not expect to oppress millions of Palestinian People and still have peace.
West Bank and Gaza are only 22% of what is TODAY, Israel, West Bank and Gaza.
PLEASE LOOK AT THE MAP IN THE FOLLOWING WEB PAGE:
The Orange areas are Israeli settlements in the already small 22% that is West Bank and Gaza. What kind of carved up mess will the Palestinian State be unless all the settlements are removed (which will probably never happen) or just make the settlements part of the New Palestinian State (which can happen right now)??
CLICK HERE > http://mondediplo.com/maps/IMG/artoff3260.jpg
" Many Arab States"
Things like this could be bit of a problem.
maybe most of the arab league will recognise israel and syria wont and then syria will attack israel and the arab league will find whether it recognised israel or not it has to side with its ally.
its like negotiationg peace with the PLO and then finding after giving away one set of things to the PLO that you have to renegotiate it with Hamas etc etc.
I not suggesting we give up however it seems that trading "peace" for land or anything else is a tricky deal since the people offering "peace"
A) can withdraw it at any time and be in a better situation than before.
and B) cant honestly promise that under all circumstances they will deliver peace (unless they totally disarm,or if they are lying).
Things like this could be bit of a problem.
maybe most of the arab league will recognise israel and syria wont and then syria will attack israel and the arab league will find whether it recognised israel or not it has to side with its ally.
its like negotiationg peace with the PLO and then finding after giving away one set of things to the PLO that you have to renegotiate it with Hamas etc etc.
I not suggesting we give up however it seems that trading "peace" for land or anything else is a tricky deal since the people offering "peace"
A) can withdraw it at any time and be in a better situation than before.
and B) cant honestly promise that under all circumstances they will deliver peace (unless they totally disarm,or if they are lying).
Despite the desire of a billion arabs, Israel isn't going away. It's there to stay. Israel's neighbors can keep attacking it and drawing israel military responses, or they can give up and act nice, and in return Israel will eventually hand temporary-leading-to-permanent land control over to them.
That's what Hitler said about the "thousand year" reich.
So do you have 10 million or so people (plus all the other side effects of WWII) to spare in order to get rid of israel? If so you are one insane man.
capitalism is the main source of the problem and zionism is an extention of it!
when you have a better solution(one that works) than capitalism I might stop to listen but at the moment your going to have to live with it.
"Zionism" is the desire for israel to exist as a jewish state.
Zionism's goal is that israel exist, forever.
Those of you who are against zionism, or against israel's existence, just stop posting here, and go join hamas and try to make it happen. Have a nice life.
Zionism's goal is that israel exist, forever.
Those of you who are against zionism, or against israel's existence, just stop posting here, and go join hamas and try to make it happen. Have a nice life.
"Zionism" is the desire for a jewish state removed from any moral obligation.
If Israel were truly an 'honest' state, Israel wouldn't have found it necessary to lie, cheat and steal.
However due to fact that Israel seeks it's 'justification' for existence based upon a history of lies and deceit. I have a very difficult time seeing any reason for it's continued existance. In fact, the continued existance of Israel if anything, only brings shame to the world jewish population.
If Israel were truly an 'honest' state, Israel wouldn't have found it necessary to lie, cheat and steal.
However due to fact that Israel seeks it's 'justification' for existence based upon a history of lies and deceit. I have a very difficult time seeing any reason for it's continued existance. In fact, the continued existance of Israel if anything, only brings shame to the world jewish population.
Zionism has nothing to do with "hate" you stupid idiot. The end of zionism means the death of the jews of israel. That's what hamas and a solid chunk of the islamic world wants. That's not what I want.
Furthermore, just about every nation on earth has at one point or another "lied and cheated" as you call it.
That you only apply your retarded standards to israel indicate that your screws are loose.
Furthermore, just about every nation on earth has at one point or another "lied and cheated" as you call it.
That you only apply your retarded standards to israel indicate that your screws are loose.
America was founded by slaughtering native americans and stealing their land.
Do you want to undo america?
Australia was founded by slaughtering native aboriginals and stealing their land.
Do you want to undo australia?
Half the middle east was founded by western countries who controlled the land.
DO you want to undo half hte middle east?
Pakistan was carved out of india and handed to violent muslims who were killing hindus.
Should we undo pakistan?
You israel-haters are morons, because not only do you make insane accusations against israel, but then you don't even come remotely close to applying the same standards to the rest of the world.
Valid criticism of israel's govt is one thing, but you "israel has no right to exist" and "zionism is hate" FREAKS seriously need to seek mental help.
Do you want to undo america?
Australia was founded by slaughtering native aboriginals and stealing their land.
Do you want to undo australia?
Half the middle east was founded by western countries who controlled the land.
DO you want to undo half hte middle east?
Pakistan was carved out of india and handed to violent muslims who were killing hindus.
Should we undo pakistan?
You israel-haters are morons, because not only do you make insane accusations against israel, but then you don't even come remotely close to applying the same standards to the rest of the world.
Valid criticism of israel's govt is one thing, but you "israel has no right to exist" and "zionism is hate" FREAKS seriously need to seek mental help.
It has created the only place on earth where Jews are routinely murdered, solely because they are Jews.
That land doesn't belong to you, so get lost! Only the true jews will accept that. And those who can't swallow the truth and accept zionism as part of their faith, are traitors in the highest order in every sense of the word.
Before the existence of zionist israel, there was peace in palestine even among the arabs and the jews living in that area.
Now look what the zionist has done! Bloodshed everwhere. Shame on you if you supported the zionist israeli cause! Either you are to blind, or too dumb to see what is happening around you.
The only reason you don't feel safe is because of what the zionist israel is doing to the people of palestine and the land that have been stole from the palestinians. Remember, in the beginning there was peace... then came the rogue state of israel.
Before the existence of zionist israel, there was peace in palestine even among the arabs and the jews living in that area.
Now look what the zionist has done! Bloodshed everwhere. Shame on you if you supported the zionist israeli cause! Either you are to blind, or too dumb to see what is happening around you.
The only reason you don't feel safe is because of what the zionist israel is doing to the people of palestine and the land that have been stole from the palestinians. Remember, in the beginning there was peace... then came the rogue state of israel.
If you have a pie, and i take the whole of it, cause I am a fat bastard, only later to "offer" you 1/4 of the pie back, on the condition that I will be guaranteed a peace of mind from your starving self, would that be considered a "fair negotiating ploy or not">
>jews . . . second classs citizens
Now some of them treat Arabs as second class citizens.
And this is better, how?
Now some of them treat Arabs as second class citizens.
And this is better, how?
Israel treats its Muslim citizens better not than Jews are treated in Arab countries, but better than the average citizen is treated in those totalitarian/authoritarian countries.
Israel, the Jewish state, provides preferential citizenship laws to Jews. Just as France does to people with French blood ("jus sanguinis" or "di sangre nationality laws") and just as Germany does to ethnic speakers of the German language (and, curiously, to Jews). There is nothing unusual in Israel's immigration laws.
What should we think if a small group of radical right wing German Americans spoke out that Germany was not the German state?
Yet here we are to believe that a buch of right-wing reliigous fanatics, who condemn Zionists as "atheists", who are against abortion, against feminism, against gay rights, are suddenly on to something when they condemn Israel for not being religious enough?!
Who would post such a thing? Hmmm.
Israel, the Jewish state, provides preferential citizenship laws to Jews. Just as France does to people with French blood ("jus sanguinis" or "di sangre nationality laws") and just as Germany does to ethnic speakers of the German language (and, curiously, to Jews). There is nothing unusual in Israel's immigration laws.
What should we think if a small group of radical right wing German Americans spoke out that Germany was not the German state?
Yet here we are to believe that a buch of right-wing reliigous fanatics, who condemn Zionists as "atheists", who are against abortion, against feminism, against gay rights, are suddenly on to something when they condemn Israel for not being religious enough?!
Who would post such a thing? Hmmm.
That's what Hitler said about the "thousand year" reich.
"""Morons
by the anti-israel freaks are morons Sunday June 29, 2003 at 06:05 PM""""
So now lets take the West Bank and Gaza and make the State of Palestine since there are almost as many people in this area as there is in the State of Israel.
Gaza and West Bank is only 22% of what is TODAY Israel, West Bank and Gaza. 22% is not to much to ask for millions of Palestinian People who deserve to be free just like anybody else, after all the U.S. believes in freedom and justice for all!!!! (not just for the Israelis)
by the anti-israel freaks are morons Sunday June 29, 2003 at 06:05 PM""""
So now lets take the West Bank and Gaza and make the State of Palestine since there are almost as many people in this area as there is in the State of Israel.
Gaza and West Bank is only 22% of what is TODAY Israel, West Bank and Gaza. 22% is not to much to ask for millions of Palestinian People who deserve to be free just like anybody else, after all the U.S. believes in freedom and justice for all!!!! (not just for the Israelis)
Gaza and Jordan's former so-called "West Bank" are 22% of Israel, which in turn is 20% of "historic Palestine".
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/palaestina_1849.jpg
Which means that 80% of "historic Palestine" is already in Arab hands. Jews only have 20% and are being asked to give up 5% to form a 2nd Arab state in "Palestine".
Trans-Jordan was carved out of "Palestine" in 1923 as an exclusive Arab (no Jews allowed) land. It was eastern Palestine and the name reflects the reference to Palestine across (to the east) of the Jordan river: Trans-Jordan.
After seizing what for thousands of years was known as "Judea" and "Samaria" in the 1948 war against Israel, Trans-Jordan "unified" itself with this portion of western Palestine as its "West Bank".
In other words, the part of Palestine east of the Jordan river which is west of the Jordan river.....
For more on the land history, see:
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1623475.php
> Palestinian People who deserve to be free just like anybody else
Do the Copts in Egypt also deserve to be free?
Do the Kurds in Iraq/Iran/Syria also deserve to be free?
Do the Chaldeans in Iraq also deserve to be free?
Do the Madan in Iraq also deserve to be free?
Do the Berbers in north Africa also deserve to be free?
Or do these groups deserve to suffer under continued Arab rule?
Why is it that the "humanists" who are so concerned with the Palestinian Arabs, to the point of entering dozens of anti-Israel articles per week, never find the time for even a single article about these other subjects?
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/palaestina_1849.jpg
Which means that 80% of "historic Palestine" is already in Arab hands. Jews only have 20% and are being asked to give up 5% to form a 2nd Arab state in "Palestine".
Trans-Jordan was carved out of "Palestine" in 1923 as an exclusive Arab (no Jews allowed) land. It was eastern Palestine and the name reflects the reference to Palestine across (to the east) of the Jordan river: Trans-Jordan.
After seizing what for thousands of years was known as "Judea" and "Samaria" in the 1948 war against Israel, Trans-Jordan "unified" itself with this portion of western Palestine as its "West Bank".
In other words, the part of Palestine east of the Jordan river which is west of the Jordan river.....
For more on the land history, see:
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1623475.php
> Palestinian People who deserve to be free just like anybody else
Do the Copts in Egypt also deserve to be free?
Do the Kurds in Iraq/Iran/Syria also deserve to be free?
Do the Chaldeans in Iraq also deserve to be free?
Do the Madan in Iraq also deserve to be free?
Do the Berbers in north Africa also deserve to be free?
Or do these groups deserve to suffer under continued Arab rule?
Why is it that the "humanists" who are so concerned with the Palestinian Arabs, to the point of entering dozens of anti-Israel articles per week, never find the time for even a single article about these other subjects?
How do you get anyone who has hundreds of nuclear weapons (and the will to use them) to do anything? Appeal to their better nature? It may be possible to return control of the worldwide press to their respective nations; but , without that press control, how do you do that? Like the USSR, the change must come from within Israel. Maybe the upcoming economic depression will help. But only if America can regain control of its government from Israel.
...but Israel does not control my government. Neither do you (thank god). Get over it.
Israel's supporters control America's government. America's government controls Israel. Israel is a puppet, client state.
And little green men doing Frank Oz imitations control all of them, and the media too.
What good is a conspiracy theory that doesn't include Yoda?
@%<
What good is a conspiracy theory that doesn't include Yoda?
@%<
Clever, should we "undo" America because it's creation was based on a crime (specifically, the crime of breaking numerous treaties for land/resource ownership bewteen indiginous tribes and eurpoean settlers)?
I think the question should be why shouldn't we "undo" America, then, if its creation was illegal? Is there some "statute of limitations" on the truth?
If something was brought into existence under a pretense that was false, how long can it be expected to last? I contend that it will not last, and that eventually right-thinking individuals will overturn any power authroity built on a lie.
Maybe the real question about America is not whether or not is shall fall but when will it really be born, live up to its promise and potential.
I think the question should be why shouldn't we "undo" America, then, if its creation was illegal? Is there some "statute of limitations" on the truth?
If something was brought into existence under a pretense that was false, how long can it be expected to last? I contend that it will not last, and that eventually right-thinking individuals will overturn any power authroity built on a lie.
Maybe the real question about America is not whether or not is shall fall but when will it really be born, live up to its promise and potential.
It is almost funny watching the para-informed sheep in this thread.
However, please note, that I said "almost funny", because it is trully pathetic that so many believe the zionist drivel including the elephant in the living-room that everyone is afraid to mention.
However, please note, that I said "almost funny", because it is trully pathetic that so many believe the zionist drivel including the elephant in the living-room that everyone is afraid to mention.
Don't look any better on a non-existent elephant.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
So let's try to focus on the topic of this article. Can anyone answer my questions?
What should we think if a small group of radical right wing German Americans spoke out that Germany was not the German state?
Yet here we are to believe that a bunch (a dozen or two in the picture above) of right-wing religous fanatics, who condemn Zionists as "atheists", who are against abortion, against feminism, against gay rights, are suddenly on to something when they condemn Israel for not being religious enough?!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
So let's try to focus on the topic of this article. Can anyone answer my questions?
What should we think if a small group of radical right wing German Americans spoke out that Germany was not the German state?
Yet here we are to believe that a bunch (a dozen or two in the picture above) of right-wing religous fanatics, who condemn Zionists as "atheists", who are against abortion, against feminism, against gay rights, are suddenly on to something when they condemn Israel for not being religious enough?!
>What should we think if a small group of radical right wing German Americans spoke out that Germany was not the German state?
This is an invalid analogy. NK does not say that Israel is not the Jewish state. They say that there is no such thing as a Jewish state, because G-d hasn’t created it yet.
>they condemn Israel for not being religious enough?!
That’s not what they say, either. They say that no state founded by Jews is valid because only G-d can found the Jewish state. It’s not about how religious Israel is, but that it exists at all.
“The founding of the Zionist state is in direct contradiction to the teachings of the Torah, which forbids the establishment of a Jewish state and commands Jews to remain in exile until they are released therefrom by G-d himself, without any human intervention, at which time all nations of the world will live together in peace, and serve their Creator in unity.”
This is an invalid analogy. NK does not say that Israel is not the Jewish state. They say that there is no such thing as a Jewish state, because G-d hasn’t created it yet.
>they condemn Israel for not being religious enough?!
That’s not what they say, either. They say that no state founded by Jews is valid because only G-d can found the Jewish state. It’s not about how religious Israel is, but that it exists at all.
“The founding of the Zionist state is in direct contradiction to the teachings of the Torah, which forbids the establishment of a Jewish state and commands Jews to remain in exile until they are released therefrom by G-d himself, without any human intervention, at which time all nations of the world will live together in peace, and serve their Creator in unity.”
Some guy: "This is an invalid analogy. NK does not say that Israel is not the Jewish state. They say that there is no such thing as a Jewish state, because G-d hasn’t created it yet."
That doesn't change KL's argument a whit. You're still talking about a subgroup claiming to be empowered to speak for the whole group when they clearly do not.
@%<
That doesn't change KL's argument a whit. You're still talking about a subgroup claiming to be empowered to speak for the whole group when they clearly do not.
@%<
Some "subgroups" do speak for the whole, e.g., the US Congress, when it accepts bribes from the Zionist Lobby in DC (which ultimately the US taxpayer provides!) speaks 'for the whole US'; further, they promise undying loyalty to the Zionist state (why don't they run for office there?), using US tax money in their campaigns. Then they get the US bogged down in the Zionist anti-Arab and anti-Muslim conflicts, so US people suffer and die, and lose our domestic freedoms, all for the sake of (Israel's)security!
AZ: "Some "subgroups" do speak for the whole, e.g., the US Congress"
* rolling eyes *
Remind me again -- when are the elections in which the Jews vote to make the Neturai Karta their representatives?
Or is the rhetorical strategy just for you folks to throw every red herring you can get your hands on to deflect from KL's simple and self-evident point, which is that the NK wouldn't be the oft-cited darlings of Indybay if either (a) the NK held a different stance on Zionism, or (b) you took a closer look at their stance on other issues.
That's why I get a chuckle every time someone brings the NK up in the first place -- because they really have only one rhetorical purpose on this site.
@%<
* rolling eyes *
Remind me again -- when are the elections in which the Jews vote to make the Neturai Karta their representatives?
Or is the rhetorical strategy just for you folks to throw every red herring you can get your hands on to deflect from KL's simple and self-evident point, which is that the NK wouldn't be the oft-cited darlings of Indybay if either (a) the NK held a different stance on Zionism, or (b) you took a closer look at their stance on other issues.
That's why I get a chuckle every time someone brings the NK up in the first place -- because they really have only one rhetorical purpose on this site.
@%<
KL>What should we think if a small group of radical right wing German Americans spoke out that Germany was not the German state?
SG> This is an invalid analogy. NK does not say that Israel is not the Jewish state. They say that there is no such thing as a Jewish state, because G-d hasn’t created it yet.
I see. And how is this different? If some Germans said that there is no such thing as a German state because God hasn't creted it yet you would rightly dismiss them as the kooks they are.
In this day and age, God doesn't create states. People do. If NK want to believe differently, they have that right, but don't expect anyone else to be impressed by this.
KL> they condemn Israel for not being religious enough?!
SG> That’s not what they say, either. They say that no state founded by Jews is valid because only G-d can found the Jewish state. It’s not about how religious Israel is, but that it exists at all.
Same thing. They claim that Israel lacks religious authority to exist. Why should I care?
Freedom of religion is also freedom FROM religion. NK doesn't seem to understand this. Do you?
SG> This is an invalid analogy. NK does not say that Israel is not the Jewish state. They say that there is no such thing as a Jewish state, because G-d hasn’t created it yet.
I see. And how is this different? If some Germans said that there is no such thing as a German state because God hasn't creted it yet you would rightly dismiss them as the kooks they are.
In this day and age, God doesn't create states. People do. If NK want to believe differently, they have that right, but don't expect anyone else to be impressed by this.
KL> they condemn Israel for not being religious enough?!
SG> That’s not what they say, either. They say that no state founded by Jews is valid because only G-d can found the Jewish state. It’s not about how religious Israel is, but that it exists at all.
Same thing. They claim that Israel lacks religious authority to exist. Why should I care?
Freedom of religion is also freedom FROM religion. NK doesn't seem to understand this. Do you?
THEN DO NOT CALL IT A JEWISH STATE!
Jewish refers to the people, the nation of Jews.
(Judaism or Judaic refers to the Jewish religion.)
Israel is the Jewish state in the same sense that Iran is the Persian state.
Again, what a dozen or two right-wing religious fanatics in NY think doesn't change this. It just exposes the true nature of the "anti-Zionists" here.
(Judaism or Judaic refers to the Jewish religion.)
Israel is the Jewish state in the same sense that Iran is the Persian state.
Again, what a dozen or two right-wing religious fanatics in NY think doesn't change this. It just exposes the true nature of the "anti-Zionists" here.
teaching the children to kill and dispossess the Arabic people for mentioning that G-D is Great (and SHE DEFINITELY IS!!!) and locking up young adults (one of many is the nephew of prime minister, benjamin natanyahu) in jail for upholding judaism while refusing to rob and murder those who mention That
G-D is GREAT is part of your culture as well?
G-D is GREAT is part of your culture as well?
I have to say that some people really are ignorant. The claim that the Arab states ban other religions than Islam is ridicilous. In Egypt there are catholics and christians and they are propably treated better there than in Israel. Even Iraq under Saddam Hussein was religious free. In Israel non - Jews have to carry special identification cards to show they are not Jews. That is not the routine in the Arab states. Israel is propably never going away, but neither is Palestine. I agree that Zionism is the root to the problem. Zionists have always been a problem. That is a fact.
Christians in Iraq have it so bad that many have left the country. Christian Copts (like homosexuals) are severely discriminated against in Egypt. Under Jordanian rule in eastern Jerusalem from 1948-1967, conditions were so bad that the Christian community dropped in half.
So now let's see if what Siggi said was itself ignorance or factual:
> The claim that the Arab states ban other religions than Islam is ridicilous.
I'm not sure anyone made that straw-man claim, only that they face severe discrimination in many cases.
> In Egypt there are catholics and christians and they are propably treated better there than in Israel.
Ignorant. Read up on the historic and present discrimination against Coptic Christians.
> Even Iraq under Saddam Hussein was religious free.
Ignorant. Know any Chaldeans?
> In Israel non - Jews have to carry special identification cards to show they are not Jews.
Ignorant. Israeli ID cards display the religion, but not just of non-Jews. This is not at all uncommon but this practice has been or is being done away with.
Here's what Joe Farah, an Arab-American, wrote about the situation of Christians in Palestine:
|| When Palestinian Rashid Hussein became a Christian, Yasser Arafat's police force called him in for questioning.... the Christian population of the area has dropped from 15 percent to 2 percent in that period.... They are being driven out. They are being murdered. They are being raped. They are being systematically persecuted. They are being harassed. They are being intimidated.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/printer-friendly.asp?ARTICLE_ID=32560
Here's what Prof. Habib Malik (from the Lebanese American University) wrote:
|| Over the centuries, political Islam has not been too kind to the native Christian communities living under its rule. Anecdotes of tolerance aside, the systematic treatment of Christians and Jews (who fall under the Islamic category of dhimmi) as second-class citizens is abusive and discriminatory by any standard.
http://www.al-bushra.org/jerus2K/christians.htm
So now let's see if what Siggi said was itself ignorance or factual:
> The claim that the Arab states ban other religions than Islam is ridicilous.
I'm not sure anyone made that straw-man claim, only that they face severe discrimination in many cases.
> In Egypt there are catholics and christians and they are propably treated better there than in Israel.
Ignorant. Read up on the historic and present discrimination against Coptic Christians.
> Even Iraq under Saddam Hussein was religious free.
Ignorant. Know any Chaldeans?
> In Israel non - Jews have to carry special identification cards to show they are not Jews.
Ignorant. Israeli ID cards display the religion, but not just of non-Jews. This is not at all uncommon but this practice has been or is being done away with.
Here's what Joe Farah, an Arab-American, wrote about the situation of Christians in Palestine:
|| When Palestinian Rashid Hussein became a Christian, Yasser Arafat's police force called him in for questioning.... the Christian population of the area has dropped from 15 percent to 2 percent in that period.... They are being driven out. They are being murdered. They are being raped. They are being systematically persecuted. They are being harassed. They are being intimidated.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/printer-friendly.asp?ARTICLE_ID=32560
Here's what Prof. Habib Malik (from the Lebanese American University) wrote:
|| Over the centuries, political Islam has not been too kind to the native Christian communities living under its rule. Anecdotes of tolerance aside, the systematic treatment of Christians and Jews (who fall under the Islamic category of dhimmi) as second-class citizens is abusive and discriminatory by any standard.
http://www.al-bushra.org/jerus2K/christians.htm
So my ignorance is a fact? That's a good one. I am sure that christians are oppressed in Palestine. But by whom? Uzi toting settlers or an illegal Israeli occupation army in Palestine? I myself do not condone discrimination in any form. Whereas in Israel, Palestine or anywhere else. The fact here is that a whole nation is being raped every day by the IDF and no one seems to care. Human rights abuses are always illegal, it should not matter who carries them out. There is discrimination in Israel where muslims are treated as second class citizens. When the state of Israel came to existence in 1948 a lot of christian Palestinians were forced out of their homes. I do condemn the Zionist ideology about a state for only the Jewish people on land that belonged to others. The state of Israel is not going anywhere and i think every one understands that. But no one can justify what Israel has done since 1948 just as no one should justify suicide bombings against Israelis. I am called ignorant. So be it but i would urge any one to check out these websites: whtt.org or gush-shalom.org. Respect.
So when the new state of Palestine comes into existence under strict Sharia law (as per its charter), you will fight for the rights of the non-Muslims?
KL many of the officials in Iraqi president saddamm hussain regime were of Christian origin.
How many officials in ariel Sharons' adminstration are of Christian origin?
Absolutely zero.
How many officials in ariel Sharons' adminstration are of Christian origin?
Absolutely zero.
who burned the Holiest ground in Christianity ( the Church of Nativity )where the Messiah Is Assumed to be born?
Sharon and his military.
Sharon and his military.
WHo shit on the floor in the Church of the Nativity. WHo violated the sactity of this church by bringing weapons inside. Who stole from the franciscan priests.??? Who destroyed Joseph's Tomb, burning the books, and hacking at the ancient stones???
THE PALESTINIANS
Who destroyed 53 Synogogues in Jerusalem between 1948-67, Who paved a road with ancient Jewish tombstones on the Mount of Olives, who forbid Jews from worshiping at the Western Wall, Cave of the Patriarchs from 1948-67????
The ARABS
Who collaborated with Hitler in the final solution of JEWS???
MUFTI OF JERUSALEM
Who murdered 68 innocent men women and children, with a rallying cry of "Idbar al Yahud" (Slaughter the Jews) in Hebron in 1929????
The ARABS
WHo ethnically cleansed all the JEws from Judea and Samaria (WEST BANK) and Gaza in 1948???
The ARABS
THE PALESTINIANS
Who destroyed 53 Synogogues in Jerusalem between 1948-67, Who paved a road with ancient Jewish tombstones on the Mount of Olives, who forbid Jews from worshiping at the Western Wall, Cave of the Patriarchs from 1948-67????
The ARABS
Who collaborated with Hitler in the final solution of JEWS???
MUFTI OF JERUSALEM
Who murdered 68 innocent men women and children, with a rallying cry of "Idbar al Yahud" (Slaughter the Jews) in Hebron in 1929????
The ARABS
WHo ethnically cleansed all the JEws from Judea and Samaria (WEST BANK) and Gaza in 1948???
The ARABS
Tom: "The ARABS"
This kind of shit gets you absolutely nowhere. I think that the history of Arab leadership on the Israel/Arab conflict is a sorry one, and I think the history of Yasir Arafat's "leadership" is even more sorry -- there's nobody in the world who's done more to thwart Palestinian aspirations -- but to tar all Arabs, no thanks.
@%<
This kind of shit gets you absolutely nowhere. I think that the history of Arab leadership on the Israel/Arab conflict is a sorry one, and I think the history of Yasir Arafat's "leadership" is even more sorry -- there's nobody in the world who's done more to thwart Palestinian aspirations -- but to tar all Arabs, no thanks.
@%<
I do not dare tarnish the name of the Arab people, they who have brought so much good into this world, so much contributions to the betterment of all mankind.
THere are so many arabs who are worthy of a Nobel Peace Prizes.
Unless the Norwegians start awarding Nobel Prizes for plane hijackings, pizza shop bombings, civilian bus attacks, Jihad suicides/homocides, drive-by shootings, throat-slittings, embassy attacks and other such acts of barbarisms, the embarrassing low level of contribution to the welfare of Civilization and Mankind by the Arab/Muslim world will continue. The Jewish People, meanwhile, will continue being the Lights Unto All Nations.
THere are so many arabs who are worthy of a Nobel Peace Prizes.
Unless the Norwegians start awarding Nobel Prizes for plane hijackings, pizza shop bombings, civilian bus attacks, Jihad suicides/homocides, drive-by shootings, throat-slittings, embassy attacks and other such acts of barbarisms, the embarrassing low level of contribution to the welfare of Civilization and Mankind by the Arab/Muslim world will continue. The Jewish People, meanwhile, will continue being the Lights Unto All Nations.
Siggi, I don't mean to offend you, but when you make statemens as these it's hard to consider you as other than ignorant:
> I do condemn the Zionist ideology about a state for only the Jewish people on land that belonged to others.
First of all, Zionism never claimed exclusivity ("only"). It accepted a two-state solution as early as 1937. It was the Arabs who repeatedly have rejected this and any compromise because they want to "drive the Jews into the sea". To wipe out Jews in the area. While it is true that some Arabs were expelled by Israel in 1948 (the majority fled of their own volition), the fact of the matter is that responsibility for the war rests with the Arabs. More importantly, whereas those Arabs who remained in Israel were safe (and indeed, today they enjoy more rights and freedoms than do their brothers in any Arab country), absolutely no Jews remained in areas that were conquered by Arab armies. They were 100% ethnically cleansed. In eastern Jerusalem alone 58 synagogues were destroyed. (Thus some now errantly refer to it as "Arab East Jerusalem", ignoring that it was so only for a short 20-year period which ended 36 years ago.)
YELLOQ asserts:
> KL many of the officials in Iraqi president saddamm hussain regime were of Christian origin.
I'm only aware of 1 and I think you miss the point. Having a Christian as the #2 man was very safe for Saddam. He didn't have to worry about an assassination attempt; a Christian couldn't possibly succeed him as President of Iraq.
> How many officials in ariel Sharons' adminstration are of Christian origin?
Irrelevant. Only 2% of Israelis are Christian (and many of these are religious officials not seeking political office). That none of about a dozen cabinet members are Christian is not relevant.
What is relevant is that Christians in Israel have complete freedom of worship, are not persecuted, etc.
Unlike in Palestine, there is no penalty for converting to Christianity and no harrassment.
Unlike in Saudi Arabia, it is not illegal to own a Christain bible.
To the shepherd bent on misleading the Sheeple:
> who burned the Holiest ground in Christianity ( the Church of Nativity )where the Messiah Is Assumed to be born?
If the Church was "burned", then it was done by the terrorist muslims who broke their way into the church and held hostages within.
> I do condemn the Zionist ideology about a state for only the Jewish people on land that belonged to others.
First of all, Zionism never claimed exclusivity ("only"). It accepted a two-state solution as early as 1937. It was the Arabs who repeatedly have rejected this and any compromise because they want to "drive the Jews into the sea". To wipe out Jews in the area. While it is true that some Arabs were expelled by Israel in 1948 (the majority fled of their own volition), the fact of the matter is that responsibility for the war rests with the Arabs. More importantly, whereas those Arabs who remained in Israel were safe (and indeed, today they enjoy more rights and freedoms than do their brothers in any Arab country), absolutely no Jews remained in areas that were conquered by Arab armies. They were 100% ethnically cleansed. In eastern Jerusalem alone 58 synagogues were destroyed. (Thus some now errantly refer to it as "Arab East Jerusalem", ignoring that it was so only for a short 20-year period which ended 36 years ago.)
YELLOQ asserts:
> KL many of the officials in Iraqi president saddamm hussain regime were of Christian origin.
I'm only aware of 1 and I think you miss the point. Having a Christian as the #2 man was very safe for Saddam. He didn't have to worry about an assassination attempt; a Christian couldn't possibly succeed him as President of Iraq.
> How many officials in ariel Sharons' adminstration are of Christian origin?
Irrelevant. Only 2% of Israelis are Christian (and many of these are religious officials not seeking political office). That none of about a dozen cabinet members are Christian is not relevant.
What is relevant is that Christians in Israel have complete freedom of worship, are not persecuted, etc.
Unlike in Palestine, there is no penalty for converting to Christianity and no harrassment.
Unlike in Saudi Arabia, it is not illegal to own a Christain bible.
To the shepherd bent on misleading the Sheeple:
> who burned the Holiest ground in Christianity ( the Church of Nativity )where the Messiah Is Assumed to be born?
If the Church was "burned", then it was done by the terrorist muslims who broke their way into the church and held hostages within.
They laid seige to the church and then the "militants" inside made a deal. at what stage did they "burn" it?
KL wrote the following:
"Unlike in Palestine, there is no penalty for converting to Christianity and no harrassment."
Arafats wife, Suha, is a devoted Christian!
I doubt she is being harrassed by the Palestinians who are the real descendants of Christ.
The fire within the holiest ground of Christianity was started by Israeli troops, who held captive Palestinian Christians who found refuge in the place of birth of the Lord!
You must depend on the publics TOTAL ignorance to get away with your rewriting history.
If truth is not on your side, better be loose with it!
"Unlike in Palestine, there is no penalty for converting to Christianity and no harrassment."
Arafats wife, Suha, is a devoted Christian!
I doubt she is being harrassed by the Palestinians who are the real descendants of Christ.
The fire within the holiest ground of Christianity was started by Israeli troops, who held captive Palestinian Christians who found refuge in the place of birth of the Lord!
You must depend on the publics TOTAL ignorance to get away with your rewriting history.
If truth is not on your side, better be loose with it!
>Arafats wife, Suha, is a devoted Christian!
I doubt she is being harrassed by the Palestinians who are the real descendants of Christ.
Bullshit, most of the "Palestinians" or Arabs a part of the PAN ARABIC NATION are recent immigrants to the land. JUst trace back their ancesty.....All of arafat (and egyptian) and his henchmen (shaath, dahlan, abbas) are originally from other countries, namely syria and egypt.
No discrimination of christians?? BUllshit. In fact a famous saying exists in the West bank and gaza that comes from palestinian muslims. "First comes saturday (the jews) then come SUnday (the christians).
I doubt she is being harrassed by the Palestinians who are the real descendants of Christ.
Bullshit, most of the "Palestinians" or Arabs a part of the PAN ARABIC NATION are recent immigrants to the land. JUst trace back their ancesty.....All of arafat (and egyptian) and his henchmen (shaath, dahlan, abbas) are originally from other countries, namely syria and egypt.
No discrimination of christians?? BUllshit. In fact a famous saying exists in the West bank and gaza that comes from palestinian muslims. "First comes saturday (the jews) then come SUnday (the christians).
Suha better keep her christian head down whether she has a president for her husband or not!
MECCA, SAUDI ARABIA, April 09, 2001 (Web Today)—Call it a "conversion of necessity."
American-born Suha Arafat, the spouse of Yassir, reportedly renounced her Christian faith to wed the Palestinian Authority chairman 11 years ago.
Since that time, she has been spotted at midnight mass in Bethlehem and ordered the Christian baptism of her three-year-old daughter, Zahwa.
Such lapses have not gone unnoticed in Yassir’s circles, so in a fence-mending operation, Suha will soon be put aboard a flight to Mecca to participate in a pilgrimage to the holiest of Muslim shrines.
Yassir hopes the visit will put an end to the malicious backbiting aimed at his wife over her reported lavish lifestyle which has been compared to that of former Philippine first lady Imelda Marcos.
Suha is 34 years younger than Yassir, a stunning blonde who prefers the company of the Arab elite to the downtrodden in their refugee camps. When she travels throughout territory controlled by the Palestinian Authority, Suha rides in a blue Mercedes Benz.
She was purposely excluded from the White House signing of the Oslo accords in 1994 for fears her carefully preened profile might detract from the image of the revolutionary militant at her side.
MECCA, SAUDI ARABIA, April 09, 2001 (Web Today)—Call it a "conversion of necessity."
American-born Suha Arafat, the spouse of Yassir, reportedly renounced her Christian faith to wed the Palestinian Authority chairman 11 years ago.
Since that time, she has been spotted at midnight mass in Bethlehem and ordered the Christian baptism of her three-year-old daughter, Zahwa.
Such lapses have not gone unnoticed in Yassir’s circles, so in a fence-mending operation, Suha will soon be put aboard a flight to Mecca to participate in a pilgrimage to the holiest of Muslim shrines.
Yassir hopes the visit will put an end to the malicious backbiting aimed at his wife over her reported lavish lifestyle which has been compared to that of former Philippine first lady Imelda Marcos.
Suha is 34 years younger than Yassir, a stunning blonde who prefers the company of the Arab elite to the downtrodden in their refugee camps. When she travels throughout territory controlled by the Palestinian Authority, Suha rides in a blue Mercedes Benz.
She was purposely excluded from the White House signing of the Oslo accords in 1994 for fears her carefully preened profile might detract from the image of the revolutionary militant at her side.
yep, the Palestinean Authority is a capitalist enterprise. thanks for reminding us, scottie.
and for just a bit of salacious nonsense: my understanding is that Arafat is gay.
and for just a bit of salacious nonsense: my understanding is that Arafat is gay.
Arafat is too unkempt to be gay. (:
KL> Unlike in Palestine, there is no penalty for converting to Christianity and no harrassment.
?> Arafats wife, Suha, is a devoted Christian!
I doubt she is being harrassed by the Palestinians who are the real descendants of Christ.
Yes, I doubt that Suha, living the good life IN PARIS, has to worry about what goes on in territories until recently controlled by her husband the dictator.
As noted, the Palestinian Arabs arrived in recent centuries, many of them between the world wars.
Any student of history would realize that Christianity faired poorly under Roman rule in Judea - just as did the Jews. In fact, many of the early Christians in Judea, like Christ himself, were Jews! Only with Byzantine rule did Christianity gain a foothold in Judea, a foothold it would lose first to Persian and then to Arab invaders. One it would attempt to regain during the Crusades, only to be driven out by the Kurds.
Let's go back to Arab sources:
Here's what Joe Farah, an Arab-American, wrote about the situation of Christians in Palestine:
|| When Palestinian Rashid Hussein became a Christian, Yasser Arafat's police force called him in for questioning.... the Christian population of the area has dropped from 15 percent to 2 percent in that period.... They are being driven out. They are being murdered. They are being raped. They are being systematically persecuted. They are being harassed. They are being intimidated.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/printer-friendly.asp?ARTICLE_ID=32560
Here's what Prof. Habib Malik (from the Lebanese American University) wrote:
|| Over the centuries, political Islam has not been too kind to the native Christian communities living under its rule. Anecdotes of tolerance aside, the systematic treatment of Christians and Jews (who fall under the Islamic category of dhimmi) as second-class citizens is abusive and discriminatory by any standard.
http://www.al-bushra.org/jerus2K/christians.htm
KL> Unlike in Palestine, there is no penalty for converting to Christianity and no harrassment.
?> Arafats wife, Suha, is a devoted Christian!
I doubt she is being harrassed by the Palestinians who are the real descendants of Christ.
Yes, I doubt that Suha, living the good life IN PARIS, has to worry about what goes on in territories until recently controlled by her husband the dictator.
As noted, the Palestinian Arabs arrived in recent centuries, many of them between the world wars.
Any student of history would realize that Christianity faired poorly under Roman rule in Judea - just as did the Jews. In fact, many of the early Christians in Judea, like Christ himself, were Jews! Only with Byzantine rule did Christianity gain a foothold in Judea, a foothold it would lose first to Persian and then to Arab invaders. One it would attempt to regain during the Crusades, only to be driven out by the Kurds.
Let's go back to Arab sources:
Here's what Joe Farah, an Arab-American, wrote about the situation of Christians in Palestine:
|| When Palestinian Rashid Hussein became a Christian, Yasser Arafat's police force called him in for questioning.... the Christian population of the area has dropped from 15 percent to 2 percent in that period.... They are being driven out. They are being murdered. They are being raped. They are being systematically persecuted. They are being harassed. They are being intimidated.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/printer-friendly.asp?ARTICLE_ID=32560
Here's what Prof. Habib Malik (from the Lebanese American University) wrote:
|| Over the centuries, political Islam has not been too kind to the native Christian communities living under its rule. Anecdotes of tolerance aside, the systematic treatment of Christians and Jews (who fall under the Islamic category of dhimmi) as second-class citizens is abusive and discriminatory by any standard.
http://www.al-bushra.org/jerus2K/christians.htm
Yep, the Palestinean Authority is a capitalist enterprise. Thanks for reminding us, Scottie.
OK go protests for communism on the PA.. Please.. I might even tentatively support you.
OK go protests for communism on the PA.. Please.. I might even tentatively support you.
The koran has provisions for killing, discriminating against, and taxing non-believers.
Can anyone tell me one predominantly muslim nation where freedom of religion is enjoyed?
Case closed.
Can anyone tell me one predominantly muslim nation where freedom of religion is enjoyed?
Case closed.
Tha talmud calls none jews 'goys.'
goys: is a deragotary term that means "animal like".
if you want to know more about the black history in the talmud research noted professor israel Shahak, an authority on all things pertaining to Judaism.
goys: is a deragotary term that means "animal like".
if you want to know more about the black history in the talmud research noted professor israel Shahak, an authority on all things pertaining to Judaism.
In Palestine, Lebanon, and Albania, all of which are predominantly muslim countries where I have the experience of going to. They do not discriminate against christians. Maybe in Sudan, or against Coptics in Egypt, but I know from my own experience there is no discrimination against christians in Albania, Palestine or Lebanon. There was no hatred or dicrimination against Jews either, until 1948, and in the creation of the European country of Israel in the middle east.
There may be some discrimination against Christians in Egypt but it certainly is not widespread or state sponsored under law as it is in Israel -- Israeli law discriminates against its Christian and Muslim populations.
Lest Israel's supporters believe they have an ally in the Egyptian Coptic Orthodox Church, they may want to read this:
"The General lay council for the Coptic Orthodox has convened in an extraordinary session presided by His Holiness Pope Shenouda III due to the deteriorating situation arising from the bloody events taken place in the holy lands.
The Council followed with great sorrow the inhuman acts faced by Palestinians, and the Palestinian authority in terms of humiliating president Arafat who is the Palestinians' elected president and the symbol of their struggle to liberate their land.
The situation has worsened to the extent that he was confined within the limits of two rooms with water, electricity and food cut off and his life jeopardized.
The Israeli's obstinacy has reached the verge of ignoring and defying the security council resolution no. 1402, which calls upon Israel to withdraw from the territories subject to the Palestinian authority. Not only that but also refusing the peace initiative emerged from the Arab summit conference held in Beirut last month.
Moreover, the Israel's counter action has mounted to extent of invading the Palestinians cities and villages and attempting to eradicate the Palestinian's existence on their own land in addition to the cruel acts of violence, which undermines the endeavors of the Palestinian president to control the enflamed feelings of his oppressed people and his candid attempts to reach for the negotiations table.
They have tightened their siege around the Palestinian president by declaring that "Ramalla" is a closed military city.
They disconnected both the city and Yasser Arafat from the rest of the world by deporting all media people from the city, preventing the Christian religious principalities to get any access to the area, cutting off any humanitarian aid and executing civilians, some of whom were executed before their folks.
This has led to the feelings of despair and frustration to reach a peaceful solution, which aggravated the Arab peoples and augmented exasperation everywhere.
Hence, the general lay Council calls upon the major countries and international conscience to promptly exert effective and practical efforts to put an end to the massacres and all acts of violence, sabotage as well as the inhuman actions that are taking place in the holy lands.
Also, the council calls upon the churches of the world to make any contacts within their power to waken the international conscience for the protection of the unarmed oppressed ones, retrieval of peace to the area and lifting the continuing sieges to put an end to violence.
We all pray for the establishment of a sovereign Palestinian State for this is the sole solution towards permanent & just peace in the area."
Lest Israel's supporters believe they have an ally in the Egyptian Coptic Orthodox Church, they may want to read this:
"The General lay council for the Coptic Orthodox has convened in an extraordinary session presided by His Holiness Pope Shenouda III due to the deteriorating situation arising from the bloody events taken place in the holy lands.
The Council followed with great sorrow the inhuman acts faced by Palestinians, and the Palestinian authority in terms of humiliating president Arafat who is the Palestinians' elected president and the symbol of their struggle to liberate their land.
The situation has worsened to the extent that he was confined within the limits of two rooms with water, electricity and food cut off and his life jeopardized.
The Israeli's obstinacy has reached the verge of ignoring and defying the security council resolution no. 1402, which calls upon Israel to withdraw from the territories subject to the Palestinian authority. Not only that but also refusing the peace initiative emerged from the Arab summit conference held in Beirut last month.
Moreover, the Israel's counter action has mounted to extent of invading the Palestinians cities and villages and attempting to eradicate the Palestinian's existence on their own land in addition to the cruel acts of violence, which undermines the endeavors of the Palestinian president to control the enflamed feelings of his oppressed people and his candid attempts to reach for the negotiations table.
They have tightened their siege around the Palestinian president by declaring that "Ramalla" is a closed military city.
They disconnected both the city and Yasser Arafat from the rest of the world by deporting all media people from the city, preventing the Christian religious principalities to get any access to the area, cutting off any humanitarian aid and executing civilians, some of whom were executed before their folks.
This has led to the feelings of despair and frustration to reach a peaceful solution, which aggravated the Arab peoples and augmented exasperation everywhere.
Hence, the general lay Council calls upon the major countries and international conscience to promptly exert effective and practical efforts to put an end to the massacres and all acts of violence, sabotage as well as the inhuman actions that are taking place in the holy lands.
Also, the council calls upon the churches of the world to make any contacts within their power to waken the international conscience for the protection of the unarmed oppressed ones, retrieval of peace to the area and lifting the continuing sieges to put an end to violence.
We all pray for the establishment of a sovereign Palestinian State for this is the sole solution towards permanent & just peace in the area."
For more information:
http://www.wcc-coe.org/wcc/behindthenews/i...
The european country has stretched everywhere but the mideast until the aftermath of the war.
they were in every single continent from the far east (australia) to the americas, to north africa and later also south, and finally Palestine.
And now they are situated warmly in Iraq and the rest of the Arab world!
they were in every single continent from the far east (australia) to the americas, to north africa and later also south, and finally Palestine.
And now they are situated warmly in Iraq and the rest of the Arab world!
A poster masquerading as "Israel Shahak" states:
> goys: is a deragotary term that means "animal like".
http://www.ling.upenn.edu/courses/Spring_2002/ling102/fp3words.html
|| Main Entry: goy. Function: noun
|| Pronunciation: 'goi
|| Inflected Form(s): plural goy·im /'goi-&m/; also goys
|| Etymology: Yiddish, from Hebrew gOy people, nation
http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/S94.html
|| Central Semitic noun *gy-, tribe. goy, from Hebrew gôy, nation people (usually, and later exclusively, of non-Israelite, and then non-Jewish, people).
A person posing as an "Arab Christian" states:
> I know from my own experience there is no discrimination against christians in Albania, Palestine or Lebanon.
Really? Why is it that Christians in southern Lebanon greeted Israeli soldiers as liberators, showering them with rice and flowers? Could it be because in towns like Damur Arafat's men had murdered thousands of civilians and turned the Church into a munitions warehouse?
Why should we believe your "experience" over that of Lebanese Arab scholars?
Here's what Prof. Habib Malik (from the Lebanese American University) wrote:
|| Over the centuries, political Islam has not been too kind to the native Christian communities living under its rule. Anecdotes of tolerance aside, the systematic treatment of Christians and Jews (who fall under the Islamic category of dhimmi) as second-class citizens is abusive and discriminatory by any standard.
http://www.al-bushra.org/jerus2K/christians.htm
> There was no hatred or dicrimination against Jews either, until 1948,
Hogwash. Except for a few short-lived golden eras, Jews were always "dhimmi", subject to numerous massacres over the ages (like in Europe by Christians). The situation in the "holy land", under the Muslim Ottoman Empire, got so desperate in the 19th century that Jews had to appeal to European powers for protection (read up on the "Capitulations"). Nonetheless, around the turn of the century roughly 1/3rd of the Jewish population had emmigrated.
For more on the Historic Mistreatment of Jews under Arab/Muslim rule, see:
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/07/1624607.php
> the creation of the European country of Israel in the middle east.
The majority of Jewish Israelis are not of European (nor American or Russian) background.
Now let's look at what "Truth" attempts to pull:
> There may be some discrimination against Christians in Egypt but it certainly is not widespread or state sponsored under law as it is in Israel -- Israeli law discriminates against its Christian and Muslim populations.
Israeli law affords freedom of religion to all.
All Israeli citizens, Jewish or not, are equal before the law.
Copts in Egypt are officially and systematically discriminated against.
http://www.copts.net/demands.asp
|| Copts (Christians of Egypt) are not asking for special treatment to compensate for centuries of discrimination and persecution. They are only asking for equality. They don't want anything more, and they will not settle for anything less. It is hard to believe that , at the turn of the 21st century,equality to Copts remains a luxury they still dream of.
1. Christians must receive permission from the President of Egypt for permission to build, repair or maintain churches. (Mosques can do as they please.)
2. Copts pay for TV & radio, but are not allowed to broadcast (Muslims are).
3. Copt lands have been taken over by the Ministry for Islamic Affairs.
|| 4. Copts want an end to forced conversion of Christian girls, who are kidnapped and raped by Muslim extremists. There are reports of police
protection given to the abductors.
|| 5- Copts want all Egyptian citizens to have the freedom of belief, including the freedom to change one's religion. Christians are welcomed to convert to Islam, so Muslims should be free to convert to Christianity, if they so chose. Those converts are usually subjected to imprisonment and torture.
|| 6- Copts want religious affiliation be removed from national ID cards, job applications,.etc...so Christians could not be identified and discriminated
against.
This is a legacy from the days of the British Empire, but funny how the "anti-Zionists" selectively think it is awful when Israel does this [though that's changing] yet don't care that surrounding Arab countries do the same.
There are numerous other points made by the Copts.
If you're concerned with the truth, go read up.
> goys: is a deragotary term that means "animal like".
http://www.ling.upenn.edu/courses/Spring_2002/ling102/fp3words.html
|| Main Entry: goy. Function: noun
|| Pronunciation: 'goi
|| Inflected Form(s): plural goy·im /'goi-&m/; also goys
|| Etymology: Yiddish, from Hebrew gOy people, nation
http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/S94.html
|| Central Semitic noun *gy-, tribe. goy, from Hebrew gôy, nation people (usually, and later exclusively, of non-Israelite, and then non-Jewish, people).
A person posing as an "Arab Christian" states:
> I know from my own experience there is no discrimination against christians in Albania, Palestine or Lebanon.
Really? Why is it that Christians in southern Lebanon greeted Israeli soldiers as liberators, showering them with rice and flowers? Could it be because in towns like Damur Arafat's men had murdered thousands of civilians and turned the Church into a munitions warehouse?
Why should we believe your "experience" over that of Lebanese Arab scholars?
Here's what Prof. Habib Malik (from the Lebanese American University) wrote:
|| Over the centuries, political Islam has not been too kind to the native Christian communities living under its rule. Anecdotes of tolerance aside, the systematic treatment of Christians and Jews (who fall under the Islamic category of dhimmi) as second-class citizens is abusive and discriminatory by any standard.
http://www.al-bushra.org/jerus2K/christians.htm
> There was no hatred or dicrimination against Jews either, until 1948,
Hogwash. Except for a few short-lived golden eras, Jews were always "dhimmi", subject to numerous massacres over the ages (like in Europe by Christians). The situation in the "holy land", under the Muslim Ottoman Empire, got so desperate in the 19th century that Jews had to appeal to European powers for protection (read up on the "Capitulations"). Nonetheless, around the turn of the century roughly 1/3rd of the Jewish population had emmigrated.
For more on the Historic Mistreatment of Jews under Arab/Muslim rule, see:
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/07/1624607.php
> the creation of the European country of Israel in the middle east.
The majority of Jewish Israelis are not of European (nor American or Russian) background.
Now let's look at what "Truth" attempts to pull:
> There may be some discrimination against Christians in Egypt but it certainly is not widespread or state sponsored under law as it is in Israel -- Israeli law discriminates against its Christian and Muslim populations.
Israeli law affords freedom of religion to all.
All Israeli citizens, Jewish or not, are equal before the law.
Copts in Egypt are officially and systematically discriminated against.
http://www.copts.net/demands.asp
|| Copts (Christians of Egypt) are not asking for special treatment to compensate for centuries of discrimination and persecution. They are only asking for equality. They don't want anything more, and they will not settle for anything less. It is hard to believe that , at the turn of the 21st century,equality to Copts remains a luxury they still dream of.
1. Christians must receive permission from the President of Egypt for permission to build, repair or maintain churches. (Mosques can do as they please.)
2. Copts pay for TV & radio, but are not allowed to broadcast (Muslims are).
3. Copt lands have been taken over by the Ministry for Islamic Affairs.
|| 4. Copts want an end to forced conversion of Christian girls, who are kidnapped and raped by Muslim extremists. There are reports of police
protection given to the abductors.
|| 5- Copts want all Egyptian citizens to have the freedom of belief, including the freedom to change one's religion. Christians are welcomed to convert to Islam, so Muslims should be free to convert to Christianity, if they so chose. Those converts are usually subjected to imprisonment and torture.
|| 6- Copts want religious affiliation be removed from national ID cards, job applications,.etc...so Christians could not be identified and discriminated
against.
This is a legacy from the days of the British Empire, but funny how the "anti-Zionists" selectively think it is awful when Israel does this [though that's changing] yet don't care that surrounding Arab countries do the same.
There are numerous other points made by the Copts.
If you're concerned with the truth, go read up.
Turkey is one such country.
bogus poster: " goys: is a deragotary term that means "animal like"."
Horseshit -- another one of those antisemitic tropes that seems to pop up so frequently here.
Goy = "nation" or "people." As in the Biblical prophesy, "Nation shall not rise up against nation, neither shall they study war no more, " which is, in the original Hebrew, "Lo yisa goy al goy cherev, lo yilmidu od milchama."
@%<
Horseshit -- another one of those antisemitic tropes that seems to pop up so frequently here.
Goy = "nation" or "people." As in the Biblical prophesy, "Nation shall not rise up against nation, neither shall they study war no more, " which is, in the original Hebrew, "Lo yisa goy al goy cherev, lo yilmidu od milchama."
@%<
turkey has been trying to be part of the EU and so may well be the best Islamic country in terms of human rights to other religions. Still being a kurd isnt so nice in turkey.
If a jewish Israeli wishes to marry a Christian Arab he must renounce his citizenship and move away to either Gaza or the west bank.
The above has just been enacted as a law, in Israel in the twenty first century/
The above has just been enacted as a law, in Israel in the twenty first century/
Isn't this behavoiur something that should have gone the way of the dinasour? And it is becoming "law" now?
How totally astonishing (and I'm being kind here).
How totally astonishing (and I'm being kind here).
A bill was introduced (and does not say what you alledge; it would only deny automatic citizenship for the spouse). At its first reading, 1/3rd of the legislature didn't even bother to show up to vote on it. It will never pass.
Which is why the "anti-Zionists" must trumpet this propaganda now before the bill is defeated and the wind taken out of their false sails.
Which is why the "anti-Zionists" must trumpet this propaganda now before the bill is defeated and the wind taken out of their false sails.
"A bill was introduced (and does not say what you alledge; it would only deny automatic citizenship for the spouse). At its first reading, 1/3rd of the legislature didn't even bother to show up to vote on it. It will never pass."
1/3rd of the legislature doesn't even bother to vote? Hah! So much for the "democracy" in the Middle East.
Maybe they're too busy enjoying their US taxpayer-funded trips to whorehouses in Cyprus to bother with voting on "irrelevant" bills.
1/3rd of the legislature doesn't even bother to vote? Hah! So much for the "democracy" in the Middle East.
Maybe they're too busy enjoying their US taxpayer-funded trips to whorehouses in Cyprus to bother with voting on "irrelevant" bills.
Well all of this drivel is fine and dandy. Yet at the end of the day gets us nowhere closer. The problems in the Middle East and the US involvement there can be summarized in the evil tendencies of Islam, Christianity and Judaism. All three religions lead their followers to think they know what God's will on this earth are. All three of the religions lead their followers to believe in a supremacy of sorts. The white, non-Arab Zionists in Israel have not only the religious supremacy going on but the racial supremacy as well.
Until we have new prophets and new ways of thinking we as a humanity will be doomed to continue repeating the mistakes of past history.
Until we have new prophets and new ways of thinking we as a humanity will be doomed to continue repeating the mistakes of past history.
My questions about the original article remain unanswered:
What should we think if a small group of radical right wing German Americans spoke out that Germany was not the German state?
Yet here we are to believe that a bunch (a dozen or two in the picture above) of right-wing religous fanatics, who condemn Zionists as "atheists", who are against abortion, against feminism, against gay rights, are suddenly on to something when they condemn Israel for not being religious enough?!
Now let's look at the new lies that were introduced to divert attention from the above:
> goys: is a deragotary term that means "animal like".
Quoting two dictionaries, we see that the etymology is from nation or people.
http://www.ling.upenn.edu/courses/Spring_2002/ling102/fp3words.html
http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/S94.html
Then someone posing as an "Arab Christian" stated:
> I know from my own experience there is no discrimination against christians in Albania, Palestine or Lebanon.
It's incredible that one person could have really experienced so much as to make such an absolute statement, especially when it's so obviously wrong!
Why is it that Christians in southern Lebanon greeted Israeli soldiers as liberators, showering them with rice and flowers?
Could it be because in towns like Damur Arafat's men had murdered thousands of civilians and turned the Church into a munitions warehouse?
Why should we believe his "experience" over that of Lebanese Arab scholars?
Here's what Prof. Habib Malik (from the Lebanese American University) wrote:
|| Over the centuries, political Islam has not been too kind to the native Christian communities living under its rule. Anecdotes of tolerance aside, the systematic treatment of Christians and Jews (who fall under the Islamic category of dhimmi) as second-class citizens is abusive and discriminatory by any standard.
http://www.al-bushra.org/jerus2K/christians.htm
Then they tried to sell us this lie:
> There was no hatred or dicrimination against Jews either, until 1948,
Read up on the Historic Mistreatment of Jews under Arab/Muslim rule:
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/07/1624607.php
Next:
> the creation of the European country of Israel in the middle east.
But the majority of Jewish Israelis are not of European (nor American or Russian) background.
Then, in most Orwellian fashion, someone posting as "Truth" uttered:
> There may be some discrimination against Christians in Egypt but it certainly is not widespread or state sponsored under law as it is in Israel -- Israeli law discriminates against its Christian and Muslim populations.
Israeli law affords freedom of religion to all.
All Israeli citizens, Jewish or not, are equal before the law.
Copts in Egypt are officially and systematically discriminated against.
http://www.copts.net/demands.asp
Lastly:
> If a jewish Israeli wishes to marry a Christian Arab he must renounce his citizenship and move away to either Gaza or the west bank.
A bill was introduced (and does not say what you allege; it would only deny automatic citizenship for the spouse. A Jewish Israeli isn't likely to survive for long in Gaza/WB, nor is the Arab spouse/"collaborator"). At its first reading, 1/3rd of the legislature didn't even bother to show up to vote on it. It will never pass.
Which is why the "anti-Zionists" must trumpet this propaganda now before the bill is defeated and the wind taken out of their false sails.
What should we think if a small group of radical right wing German Americans spoke out that Germany was not the German state?
Yet here we are to believe that a bunch (a dozen or two in the picture above) of right-wing religous fanatics, who condemn Zionists as "atheists", who are against abortion, against feminism, against gay rights, are suddenly on to something when they condemn Israel for not being religious enough?!
Now let's look at the new lies that were introduced to divert attention from the above:
> goys: is a deragotary term that means "animal like".
Quoting two dictionaries, we see that the etymology is from nation or people.
http://www.ling.upenn.edu/courses/Spring_2002/ling102/fp3words.html
http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/S94.html
Then someone posing as an "Arab Christian" stated:
> I know from my own experience there is no discrimination against christians in Albania, Palestine or Lebanon.
It's incredible that one person could have really experienced so much as to make such an absolute statement, especially when it's so obviously wrong!
Why is it that Christians in southern Lebanon greeted Israeli soldiers as liberators, showering them with rice and flowers?
Could it be because in towns like Damur Arafat's men had murdered thousands of civilians and turned the Church into a munitions warehouse?
Why should we believe his "experience" over that of Lebanese Arab scholars?
Here's what Prof. Habib Malik (from the Lebanese American University) wrote:
|| Over the centuries, political Islam has not been too kind to the native Christian communities living under its rule. Anecdotes of tolerance aside, the systematic treatment of Christians and Jews (who fall under the Islamic category of dhimmi) as second-class citizens is abusive and discriminatory by any standard.
http://www.al-bushra.org/jerus2K/christians.htm
Then they tried to sell us this lie:
> There was no hatred or dicrimination against Jews either, until 1948,
Read up on the Historic Mistreatment of Jews under Arab/Muslim rule:
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/07/1624607.php
Next:
> the creation of the European country of Israel in the middle east.
But the majority of Jewish Israelis are not of European (nor American or Russian) background.
Then, in most Orwellian fashion, someone posting as "Truth" uttered:
> There may be some discrimination against Christians in Egypt but it certainly is not widespread or state sponsored under law as it is in Israel -- Israeli law discriminates against its Christian and Muslim populations.
Israeli law affords freedom of religion to all.
All Israeli citizens, Jewish or not, are equal before the law.
Copts in Egypt are officially and systematically discriminated against.
http://www.copts.net/demands.asp
Lastly:
> If a jewish Israeli wishes to marry a Christian Arab he must renounce his citizenship and move away to either Gaza or the west bank.
A bill was introduced (and does not say what you allege; it would only deny automatic citizenship for the spouse. A Jewish Israeli isn't likely to survive for long in Gaza/WB, nor is the Arab spouse/"collaborator"). At its first reading, 1/3rd of the legislature didn't even bother to show up to vote on it. It will never pass.
Which is why the "anti-Zionists" must trumpet this propaganda now before the bill is defeated and the wind taken out of their false sails.
KL - Do you have ANYTHING to say about the CONTENT of U.S. President Woodrow Wilson's King-Crane Commission report on Zionism from 1919?
http://www.ku.edu/~kansite/ww_one/docs/kncr.htm
I've posted it here at sfimc at least a half dozen times.
Zionists always choose to ignore it.
==========================================
Do you have anything to say about content of the Proposal of the National Military Organization in Palestine (Irgun Zvai Leumi) Concerning the SOLUTION OF THE JEWISH QUESTION in Europe and the Participation of the NMO in the War ON THE SIDE OF GERMANY?
http://www.marxists.de/middleast/brenner/irgunazi.htm
KL?
Was it not the Irgun Zvai Leumi who were responsible for the assassination of Counte Folke Bernadotte after he negotiated for the release of thousands of Jews from concentration camps?
Was Yitzahk Shamir a member of the Irgun, KL?
Did Shamir order the assassination of Bernadotte?
Did Shamir become prime minister of Israel?
KL?
========================================
"In our political argument abroad, we minimize Arab opposition to us...but let us not ignore the truth amongst ourselves - WE ARE THE AGGRESSORS, and THEY DEFEND THEMSELVES.
Ben Gurion, 1938 - 10 years before Nakba
We haven't discussed this in this thread, and whatever was written certainly doesn't excuse the above lies & misinformation. But then, your point was to introduce a red-herring to change the subject, right?
HISTORICAL DOCUMENTATION that zionists (including KL on many occassions) refuse to acknowledge, prefering instead to change the subject, attack and defame the source, or INTENTIONALLY AND DECEIPTFULLY MISCATEGORIZE AS, quote:
"lies & misinformation"
from President Woodrow Wilson's 1919 King-Crane Commission Report:
ZIONISM
E. We recommend, in the fifth place, serious modification of the extreme Zionist program for Palestine of unlimited immigration of Jews, looking finally to making Palestine distinctly a Jewish State.
(1) The Commissioners began their study of Zionism with minds predisposed in its favor, but the actual facts in Palestine, coupled with the force of the general principles proclaimed by the Allies and accepted by the Syrians have driven them to the recommendation here made.
(2) The commission was abundantly supplied with literature on the Zionist program by the Zionist Commission to Palestine; heard in conferences much concerning the Zionist colonies and their claims; and personally saw something of what had been accomplished. They found much to approve in the aspirations and plans of the Zionists, and had warm appreciation for the devotion of many of the colonists and for their success, by modern methods, in overcoming natural obstacles.
(3) The Commission recognized also that definite encouragement had been given to the Zionists by the Allies in Mr. Balfour's often quoted statement in its approval by other representatives of the Allies. If, however, the strict terms of the Balfour Statement are adhered to -favoring "the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people," "it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights existing in non-Jewish communities in Palestine"-it can hardly be doubted that the extreme Zionist Program must be greatly modified.
For "a national home for the Jewish people" is not equivalent to making Palestine into a Jewish State; nor can the erection of such a Jewish State be accomplished without the gravest trespass upon the "civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine." The fact came out repeatedly in the Commission's conference with Jewish representatives, that the Zionists looked forward to a practically complete dispossession of the present non-Jewish inhabitants of Palestine, by various forms of purchase.
In his address of July 4, 1918, President Wilson laid down the following principle as one of the four great "ends for which the associated peoples of the world were fighting"; "The settlement of every question, whether of territory, of sovereignty, of economic arrangement, or of political relationship upon the basis of the free acceptance of that settlement by the people immediately concerned and not upon the basis of the material interest or advantage of any other nation or people which may desire a different settlement for the sake of its own exterior influence or mastery." If that principle is to rule, and so the wishes of Palestine's population are to be decisive as to what is to be done with Palestine, then it is to be remembered that the non-Jewish population of Palestine-nearly nine tenths of the whole-are emphatically against the entire Zionist program. The tables show that there was no one thing upon which the population of Palestine were more agreed than upon this. To subject a people so minded to unlimited Jewish immigration, and to steady financial and social pressure to surrenderthe land, would be a gross violation of the principle just quoted, and of the people's rights, though it kept within the forms of law.
It is to be noted also that the feeling against the Zionist program is not confined to Palestine, but shared very generally by the people throughout Syria as our conferences clearly showed. More than 72 per cent-1,350 in all-of all the petitions in the whole of Syria were directed against the Zionist program. Only two requests-those for a united Syria and for independence-had a larger support This genera] feeling was only voiced by the "General Syrian Congress," in the seventh, eighth and tenth resolutions of the statement. (Already quoted in the report.)
The Peace Conference should not shut its eyes to the fact that the anti-Zionist feeling in Palestine and Syria is intense and not lightly to be flouted. No British officer, consulted by the Commissioners, believed that the Zionist program could be carried out except by force of arms. The officers generally thought that a force of not less than 50,000 soldiers would be required even to initiate the program. That of itself is evidence of a strong sense of the injustice of the Zionist program, on the part of the non-Jewish populations of Palestine and Syria. Decisions, requiring armies to carry out, are sometimes necessary, but they are surely not gratuitously to be taken in the interests of a serious injustice. For the initial claim, often submitted by Zionist representatives, that they have a "right" to Palestine, based on an occupation of 2,000 years ago, can hardly be seriously considered.
There is a further consideration that cannot justly be ignored, if the world is to look forward to Palestine becoming a definitely Jewish state, however gradually that may take place. That consideration grows out of the fact that Palestine is "the Holy Land" for Jews, Christians, and Moslems alike. Millions of Christians and Moslems all over the world are quite as much concerned as the Jews with conditions in Palestine especially with those conditions which touch upon religious feeling and rights. The relations in these matters in Palestine are most delicate and difficult. With the best possible intentions, it may be doubted whether the Jews could possibly seem to either Christians or Moslems proper guardians of the holy places, or custodians of the Holy Land as a whole.
The reason is this: The places which are most sacred to Christians-those having to do with Jesus-and which are also sacred to Moslems, are not only not sacred to Jews, but abhorrent to them. It is simply impossible, under those circumstances, for Moslems and Christians to feel satisfied to have these places in Jewish hands, or under the custody of Jews. There are still other places about which Moslems must have the same feeling. In fact, from this point of view, the Moslems, just because the sacred places of all three religions are sacred to them have made very naturally much more satisfactory custodians of the holy places than the Jews could be. It must be believed that the precise meaning, in this respect, of the complete Jewish occupation of Palestine has not been fully sensed by those who urge the extreme Zionist program. For it would intensify, with a certainty like fate, the anti-Jewish feeling both in Palestine and in all other portions of the world which look to Palestine as "the Holy Land."
In view of all these considerations, and with a deep sense of sympathy for the Jewish cause, the Commissioners feel bound to recommend that only a greatly reduced Zionist program be attempted by the Peace Conference, and even that, only very gradually initiated. This would have to mean that Jewish immigration should be definitely limited, and that the project for making Palestine distinctly a Jewish commonwealth should be given up.
The Faithful are Allowed to Carry the Cornerstone to the Area of the Hulda Gates of the Temple Mount
The Israeli Supreme Court Decides on the Faithful Movement Petition
[...] I want to bring a word from G–d to the enemies of Israel and to all the nations in the world. Do not even try to prevent this godly event and process. The purification of the Temple Mount from the foreigners and enemies of Israel and their desecration of the holy site of G–d and the rebuilding of the temple cannot be prevented. This is a major historical, prophetic, end-time event which the G–d of Israel and the Universe will soon bring to completion in our lifetime. G–d anointed Israel to rebuild this house and to serve Him in this great house not only for the people of Israel but for all the nations as the prophet Isaiah stated - “... for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples.” (Isaiah56:7)
Is it possible to deceive your readers into accepting that this (1.8MG) Australian Broadcasting Corporation report is simply "lies and misinformation", KL.? I don't think so - that's why zionists refuse to comment on the CONTENT of the report:
"We're supposed to PURIFY THE CAMP OF SOMETHING DIRTY", he said
From the official report of the Office of the Military Government for Germany - U.S. (OMGUS), dated January 10, 1948:
Tensions and clashes in the Jewish DP camps are now on the increase. They are spreading to various parts of the U.S. zone and are gaining momentum. In the back of it all is an attempt and determination of the 'Irgun Zevai Leumi' to gain control of the camp administrations and instituions.
They find it hard however to take over the committees that are democratically elected and are working under an Army charter and subject to public control and scrutiny. Irgun, therefore, seems to concentrate on the DP police force. This is an old technique in Eastern Europe and in all police states. By controlling the police, a small, unscrupulous group of determined people can impose its will on a peaceful and inarticulate majority; it is done by threats, intimidation, by violence and if need by bloodshed...they have embarked upon a course of violence within the camps.
ref - Ron David, Arabs and Israel for Beginners.
Who were the Irgun?.... Let's find out!
[Stern Gang]
Fundamental Features of the Proposal of the National
Military Organization in Palestine (Irgun Zvai Leumi)
Concerning
the Solution of the Jewish
Question
in Europe and
the Participation of the
NMO in the War
on the Side of Germany
(1941)
From Lenni Brenner: The Iron Wall, London 1984,
pp.195-197.
Reposted here by permission
For the German original click here.
Transcribed
and marked up by Einde O’Callaghan for
REDS – Die Roten.
It is often stated in the speeches and utterances of the leading statesmen of National Socialist Germany that a prerequisite of the New Order in Europe requires the radical solution of the Jewish question through evacuation (“Jew-free Europe”).
The evacuation of the Jewish masses from Europe is a precondition for solving the Jewish question; but this can only be made possible and complete through the settlement of these masses in the home of the Jewish people, Palestine, and through the establishment of a Jewish state in its historic boundaries.
The solving in this manner of the Jewish problem, thus bringing with it once and for all the liberation of the Jewish people, is the objective of the political activity and the years-long struggle of the Israeli freedom movement, the National Military Organization (Irgun Zvai Leumi) in Palestine.
The NMO, which is well-acquainted with the goodwill of the German Reich government and its authorities towards Zionist activity inside Germany and towards Zionist emigration plans, is of the opinion that:
- Common interests could exist between the establishment of a new order in Europe in conformity with the German concept, and the true national aspirations of the Jewish people as they are embodied by the NMO.
- Cooperation between the new Germany and a renewed folkish-national Hebraium would be possible and,
- The establishment of the historic Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, bound by a treaty with the German Reich, would be in the interest of a maintained and strengthened future German position of power in the Near East.
Proceeding from these considerations, the NMO in Palestine, under the condition the above-mentioned national aspirations of the Israeli freedom movement are recognized on the side of the German Reich, offers to actively lake part in the war on Germany’s side.
Who killed Count Folke Bernadotte?
"One organization that saw Bernadottes efforts as a threat was LEHI, a Jewish underground group that, under the leadership of Yitzhak Shamir, Dr. Israel Scheib and Nathan Friedman-Yellin, had waged a campaign of personal terror to force the British out of Palestine. LEHI called Bernadotte a British agent who had cooperated with the Nazis in World War II. The organization considered his plan to be a threat to its goal of Israeli independence on both banks of the Jordan River. Commander Yehoshua Zeitler of the Jerusalem branch of LEHI started training four men to kill Bernadotte, and solicited information from two sympathetic journalists about his schedule. LEHI leaders decided to assassinate Bernadotte while he was on his way to a meeting with Dov Joseph, military governor of Jerusalems New City, which was scheduled for either 4:30 p.m. on September 17 or sometime on September 18 (the exact date is disputed). - Jewish Virtual Library of Lies and Misinformation
[...] Gloria Lyon, told the crowd she was proud to be at the opening to honor the memory of the rescuer who saved her from death, Counte Folke Bernadotte. The Swedish Red Cross head negotiated with SS commander Heinrich Himmler for the release of thousands in concentration camps. - Jewish Bulletin News
How did Israel reward the nazi-collaborating terrorist responsible for the murder of a Peace Mediator who saved thousands of Jews from concentration camps?
Yitzhak Shamir reputedly played a role in planning the assassination; however, he was never tried and went on to become Prime Minister of Israel.
->
kee betachbulot ta'ase lecha milchama, KL.
Enough of your cut&paste entries.
Why should anyone bother to refute your new lies when you introduce them as a distraction because your old lies have been exposed?
My questions about the original article remain unanswered:
What should we think if a small group of radical right wing German Americans spoke out that Germany was not the German state?
Yet here we are to believe that a bunch (a dozen or two in the picture above) of right-wing religous fanatics, who condemn Zionists as "atheists", who are against abortion, against feminism, against gay rights, are suddenly on to something when they condemn Israel for not being religious enough?!
Now let's look at the new lies that were introduced to divert attention from the above:
> goys: is a deragotary term that means "animal like".
Quoting two dictionaries, we see that the etymology is from nation or people.
http://www.ling.upenn.edu/courses/Spring_2002/ling102/fp3words.html
http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/S94.html
Then someone posing as an "Arab Christian" stated:
> I know from my own experience there is no discrimination against christians in Albania, Palestine or Lebanon.
It's incredible that one person could have really experienced so much as to make such an absolute statement, especially when it's so obviously wrong!
Why is it that Christians in southern Lebanon greeted Israeli soldiers as liberators, showering them with rice and flowers?
Could it be because in towns like Damur Arafat's men had murdered thousands of civilians and turned the Church into a munitions warehouse?
Why should we believe his "experience" over that of Lebanese Arab scholars?
Here's what Prof. Habib Malik (from the Lebanese American University) wrote:
|| Over the centuries, political Islam has not been too kind to the native Christian communities living under its rule. Anecdotes of tolerance aside, the systematic treatment of Christians and Jews (who fall under the Islamic category of dhimmi) as second-class citizens is abusive and discriminatory by any standard.
http://www.al-bushra.org/jerus2K/christians.htm
Then they tried to sell us this lie:
> There was no hatred or dicrimination against Jews either, until 1948,
Read up on the Historic Mistreatment of Jews under Arab/Muslim rule:
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/07/1624607.php
Next:
> the creation of the European country of Israel in the middle east.
But the majority of Jewish Israelis are not of European (nor American or Russian) background.
Then, in most Orwellian fashion, someone posting as "Truth" uttered:
> There may be some discrimination against Christians in Egypt but it certainly is not widespread or state sponsored under law as it is in Israel -- Israeli law discriminates against its Christian and Muslim populations.
Israeli law affords freedom of religion to all.
All Israeli citizens, Jewish or not, are equal before the law.
Copts in Egypt are officially and systematically discriminated against.
http://www.copts.net/demands.asp
Lastly:
> If a jewish Israeli wishes to marry a Christian Arab he must renounce his citizenship and move away to either Gaza or the west bank.
A bill was introduced (and does not say what you allege; it would only deny automatic citizenship for the spouse. A Jewish Israeli isn't likely to survive for long in Gaza/WB, nor is the Arab spouse/"collaborator"). At its first reading, 1/3rd of the legislature didn't even bother to show up to vote on it. It will never pass.
Which is why the "anti-Zionists" must trumpet this propaganda now before the bill is defeated and the wind taken out of their false sails.
Why should anyone bother to refute your new lies when you introduce them as a distraction because your old lies have been exposed?
My questions about the original article remain unanswered:
What should we think if a small group of radical right wing German Americans spoke out that Germany was not the German state?
Yet here we are to believe that a bunch (a dozen or two in the picture above) of right-wing religous fanatics, who condemn Zionists as "atheists", who are against abortion, against feminism, against gay rights, are suddenly on to something when they condemn Israel for not being religious enough?!
Now let's look at the new lies that were introduced to divert attention from the above:
> goys: is a deragotary term that means "animal like".
Quoting two dictionaries, we see that the etymology is from nation or people.
http://www.ling.upenn.edu/courses/Spring_2002/ling102/fp3words.html
http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/S94.html
Then someone posing as an "Arab Christian" stated:
> I know from my own experience there is no discrimination against christians in Albania, Palestine or Lebanon.
It's incredible that one person could have really experienced so much as to make such an absolute statement, especially when it's so obviously wrong!
Why is it that Christians in southern Lebanon greeted Israeli soldiers as liberators, showering them with rice and flowers?
Could it be because in towns like Damur Arafat's men had murdered thousands of civilians and turned the Church into a munitions warehouse?
Why should we believe his "experience" over that of Lebanese Arab scholars?
Here's what Prof. Habib Malik (from the Lebanese American University) wrote:
|| Over the centuries, political Islam has not been too kind to the native Christian communities living under its rule. Anecdotes of tolerance aside, the systematic treatment of Christians and Jews (who fall under the Islamic category of dhimmi) as second-class citizens is abusive and discriminatory by any standard.
http://www.al-bushra.org/jerus2K/christians.htm
Then they tried to sell us this lie:
> There was no hatred or dicrimination against Jews either, until 1948,
Read up on the Historic Mistreatment of Jews under Arab/Muslim rule:
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/07/1624607.php
Next:
> the creation of the European country of Israel in the middle east.
But the majority of Jewish Israelis are not of European (nor American or Russian) background.
Then, in most Orwellian fashion, someone posting as "Truth" uttered:
> There may be some discrimination against Christians in Egypt but it certainly is not widespread or state sponsored under law as it is in Israel -- Israeli law discriminates against its Christian and Muslim populations.
Israeli law affords freedom of religion to all.
All Israeli citizens, Jewish or not, are equal before the law.
Copts in Egypt are officially and systematically discriminated against.
http://www.copts.net/demands.asp
Lastly:
> If a jewish Israeli wishes to marry a Christian Arab he must renounce his citizenship and move away to either Gaza or the west bank.
A bill was introduced (and does not say what you allege; it would only deny automatic citizenship for the spouse. A Jewish Israeli isn't likely to survive for long in Gaza/WB, nor is the Arab spouse/"collaborator"). At its first reading, 1/3rd of the legislature didn't even bother to show up to vote on it. It will never pass.
Which is why the "anti-Zionists" must trumpet this propaganda now before the bill is defeated and the wind taken out of their false sails.
Calling documented historical government records a "lie", doesn't turn them into a "lie", KL. - no matter how many times you say so.
You need to demonstrate WHY the word "lie" is an accurate category descriptor for the above documents. You haven't done so, though you deceptively imply otherwise.
You may also continue attempting to drown, abuse and intimidate critics of your whacky fundamentalist cult, but these documented facts and references to the original source material will keep appearing at the top of these threads until zionists decide it might be in their interest to ackowledge past and present injustices.
"justice" is correctly defined in terms of equity of transactions between humans; all humans - not only the chosen.
Zionism has never been about justice:
eg: "WE are the aggressors, and THEY defend themselves" (Ben Gurion, 1938)
Half the links to what you intentionally and deceptively miscategorize as "lies and misinformation" will take you to the (miscategorized as) Jewish (actually zionist) Virtual Library, KL.
How did Israel reward the nazi-collaborating terrorist responsible for the murder of a Peace Mediator who saved thousands of Jews from concentration camps?
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According to the Jewish Virtual LIbrary, nazi-collaborator "Yitzhak Shamir reputedly played a role in planning the assassination; however, he was never tried and went on to become Prime Minister of Israel."
kee betachbulot ta'ase lecha milchama, KL.
That's just another off-topic distraction.
Can't you defend the previous lies?
Can't you defend the previous lies?
ZIONISM IS THE ROOT PROBLEM
I want to afirm the prophecy by Keneth Copeland that the God that took Israel from Egypt has been released, He is doing all in his power to recapture mid east as his holy Land. He ofcause was the leader of the gods in our world, but was put to stop by the sixth ruling god called in greek Zeus and Jupiter of the Romans. Yes he did defeat Rahab/Ramuel of the egyptians but he was defeated also. He is the one who mobilised Israel to kill Jesus as he was the murderer from the beginning. He spoke through Zechariah that the man who is the shepherd must be killed, that led to the crucifixion of Jesus the Nazarene, but after falling peter stood up. I agree that since Jesus'time he was quite, he could n't defend Israel, but as he is released he will defend it. Bush is acting exactly on his will. by bringing mid east under his control. This God will come in human form and will declare that he is God and there is no other. He will defy Jesus to the fullest, but it won't be long. I plea with the Arabs that this time forward will be terrible time in mid east. Well if you read bible accuretly you will understand this. The woman/harlot of bybelon spoken in revelation is actually Jerusalem/Jews in fact. There israelites will eventually revolt against him and he will lead to the destruction of their states, but His destruction will be on the pipeline
It's strangely 'perverse' how many people (KL, scottie, gehrig et.al) continue to 'flog the same horse' that has been long proven to be dead.
Over 100-years of quotes by zionists, including numerous biographies, the de-classification(s) of documents and their subsequent release(s) by the Israeli government, the exposure(s) of certain practices and/or events by ex-zionists morally repulsed by the actions of the Israeli Government/Jewish Agency and more... just don't seem to be able to convince the dogmatic and their grasp on propaganda.
Over 100-years of quotes by zionists, including numerous biographies, the de-classification(s) of documents and their subsequent release(s) by the Israeli government, the exposure(s) of certain practices and/or events by ex-zionists morally repulsed by the actions of the Israeli Government/Jewish Agency and more... just don't seem to be able to convince the dogmatic and their grasp on propaganda.
So what's with the "far right" leanings here this a.m.?
I am assuming it ii some accident or another because I could not ever imagine my pal, exclamation point, ever deliberately turning to the right, even on this Board.
I am assuming it ii some accident or another because I could not ever imagine my pal, exclamation point, ever deliberately turning to the right, even on this Board.
The Jewish Virtual Library contains more truth than anyone can find in one pinky fingernail of any Palestinian.
Scottie there is no good Islamic country. Not even Turkey. They are all enemies of Jews and Christians and anyone else. Are you suddenly brown nosing the Arabs? The terorists? It seems like you have turned a little limp wristed on the Arabs. Stop bending over for them.
I seriously doubt that was KL.. it was probably a leftist faker.
whoever it was I suggest they go home and slap themselves a few times before coming out in public again.
whoever it was I suggest they go home and slap themselves a few times before coming out in public again.
The mandatory rehabilitation program {MRP} shall
be a program where all victims of Zionist mind
control are sent to de-program from their former
indoctrination.
It will be an ‘AA’ group for Zionists-
(The Zionist Anonymous ZA)…
It will draw individuals like ‘Sharon’, ‘Scottie’,
’Gehrig’, ‘kl’ and many others
who shall go to vent their rage in a safe environment.
A trained and none judgmental individual will gently guide them
through their misconception
until they can rejoin civilization and no longer
pose any danger to it.
There will be a song and dance class to get them
in touch with their creative side as well as
finger painting and other fun stuff to express their ‘inner child.’
Every day they will be challenged to step beyond
their comfort zone.
The first week will be ‘hug a non-Jew’ week and so on and so forth.
Upon graduation they will be handed their very own copy of ‘survivor’ by Destiny’s Child and a ‘Jew Not Zionist’ certificate of excellence.
be a program where all victims of Zionist mind
control are sent to de-program from their former
indoctrination.
It will be an ‘AA’ group for Zionists-
(The Zionist Anonymous ZA)…
It will draw individuals like ‘Sharon’, ‘Scottie’,
’Gehrig’, ‘kl’ and many others
who shall go to vent their rage in a safe environment.
A trained and none judgmental individual will gently guide them
through their misconception
until they can rejoin civilization and no longer
pose any danger to it.
There will be a song and dance class to get them
in touch with their creative side as well as
finger painting and other fun stuff to express their ‘inner child.’
Every day they will be challenged to step beyond
their comfort zone.
The first week will be ‘hug a non-Jew’ week and so on and so forth.
Upon graduation they will be handed their very own copy of ‘survivor’ by Destiny’s Child and a ‘Jew Not Zionist’ certificate of excellence.
KL, your undisguised radicalism is showing!
Are you sure that you're not a racist?
Are you sure that you're not a racist?
Yes it was me above. Look Scottie I'm sorry if I hurt your little feelings, but we have to move things along here. We don't have time for you and gehrig to mess around being pedantic or trying to impress girls. So let's get things out of the way and get Brian.
Bite me, KL! You do a lot of ducking yourself!
Are you on drugs?
This is not some team sport here.
I am not here as an agent for zionism...
Well at least oyu guys have proven we are not all the same person. much as some of the peopel on here would like to believe that
This is not some team sport here.
I am not here as an agent for zionism...
Well at least oyu guys have proven we are not all the same person. much as some of the peopel on here would like to believe that
if at first you don't succeed....
My questions about the original article remain unanswered:
What should we think if a small group of radical right wing German Americans spoke out that Germany was not the German state?
Yet here we are to believe that a bunch (a dozen or two in the picture above) of right-wing religous fanatics, who condemn Zionists as "atheists", who are against abortion, against feminism, against gay rights, are suddenly on to something when they condemn Israel for not being religious enough?!
Now let's look at the new lies that were introduced to divert attention from the above:
> goys: is a deragotary term that means "animal like".
Quoting two dictionaries, we see that the etymology is from nation or people.
http://www.ling.upenn.edu/courses/Spring_2002/ling102/fp3words.html
http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/S94.html
Then someone posing as an "Arab Christian" stated:
> I know from my own experience there is no discrimination against christians in Albania, Palestine or Lebanon.
It's incredible that one person could have really experienced so much as to make such an absolute statement, especially when it's so obviously wrong!
Why is it that Christians in southern Lebanon greeted Israeli soldiers as liberators, showering them with rice and flowers?
Could it be because in towns like Damur Arafat's men had murdered thousands of civilians and turned the Church into a munitions warehouse?
Why should we believe his "experience" over that of Lebanese Arab scholars?
Here's what Prof. Habib Malik (from the Lebanese American University) wrote:
|| Over the centuries, political Islam has not been too kind to the native Christian communities living under its rule. Anecdotes of tolerance aside, the systematic treatment of Christians and Jews (who fall under the Islamic category of dhimmi) as second-class citizens is abusive and discriminatory by any standard.
http://www.al-bushra.org/jerus2K/christians.htm
Then they tried to sell us this lie:
> There was no hatred or dicrimination against Jews either, until 1948,
Read up on the Historic Mistreatment of Jews under Arab/Muslim rule:
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/07/1624607.php
Next:
> the creation of the European country of Israel in the middle east.
But the majority of Jewish Israelis are not of European (nor American or Russian) background.
Then, in most Orwellian fashion, someone posting as "Truth" uttered:
> There may be some discrimination against Christians in Egypt but it certainly is not widespread or state sponsored under law as it is in Israel -- Israeli law discriminates against its Christian and Muslim populations.
Israeli law affords freedom of religion to all.
All Israeli citizens, Jewish or not, are equal before the law.
Copts in Egypt are officially and systematically discriminated against.
http://www.copts.net/demands.asp
Lastly:
> If a jewish Israeli wishes to marry a Christian Arab he must renounce his citizenship and move away to either Gaza or the west bank.
A bill was introduced (and does not say what you allege; it would only deny automatic citizenship for the spouse. A Jewish Israeli isn't likely to survive for long in Gaza/WB, nor is the Arab spouse/"collaborator"). At its first reading, 1/3rd of the legislature didn't even bother to show up to vote on it. It will never pass.
Which is why the "anti-Zionists" must trumpet this propaganda now before the bill is defeated and the wind taken out of their false sails.
What should we think if a small group of radical right wing German Americans spoke out that Germany was not the German state?
Yet here we are to believe that a bunch (a dozen or two in the picture above) of right-wing religous fanatics, who condemn Zionists as "atheists", who are against abortion, against feminism, against gay rights, are suddenly on to something when they condemn Israel for not being religious enough?!
Now let's look at the new lies that were introduced to divert attention from the above:
> goys: is a deragotary term that means "animal like".
Quoting two dictionaries, we see that the etymology is from nation or people.
http://www.ling.upenn.edu/courses/Spring_2002/ling102/fp3words.html
http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/S94.html
Then someone posing as an "Arab Christian" stated:
> I know from my own experience there is no discrimination against christians in Albania, Palestine or Lebanon.
It's incredible that one person could have really experienced so much as to make such an absolute statement, especially when it's so obviously wrong!
Why is it that Christians in southern Lebanon greeted Israeli soldiers as liberators, showering them with rice and flowers?
Could it be because in towns like Damur Arafat's men had murdered thousands of civilians and turned the Church into a munitions warehouse?
Why should we believe his "experience" over that of Lebanese Arab scholars?
Here's what Prof. Habib Malik (from the Lebanese American University) wrote:
|| Over the centuries, political Islam has not been too kind to the native Christian communities living under its rule. Anecdotes of tolerance aside, the systematic treatment of Christians and Jews (who fall under the Islamic category of dhimmi) as second-class citizens is abusive and discriminatory by any standard.
http://www.al-bushra.org/jerus2K/christians.htm
Then they tried to sell us this lie:
> There was no hatred or dicrimination against Jews either, until 1948,
Read up on the Historic Mistreatment of Jews under Arab/Muslim rule:
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/07/1624607.php
Next:
> the creation of the European country of Israel in the middle east.
But the majority of Jewish Israelis are not of European (nor American or Russian) background.
Then, in most Orwellian fashion, someone posting as "Truth" uttered:
> There may be some discrimination against Christians in Egypt but it certainly is not widespread or state sponsored under law as it is in Israel -- Israeli law discriminates against its Christian and Muslim populations.
Israeli law affords freedom of religion to all.
All Israeli citizens, Jewish or not, are equal before the law.
Copts in Egypt are officially and systematically discriminated against.
http://www.copts.net/demands.asp
Lastly:
> If a jewish Israeli wishes to marry a Christian Arab he must renounce his citizenship and move away to either Gaza or the west bank.
A bill was introduced (and does not say what you allege; it would only deny automatic citizenship for the spouse. A Jewish Israeli isn't likely to survive for long in Gaza/WB, nor is the Arab spouse/"collaborator"). At its first reading, 1/3rd of the legislature didn't even bother to show up to vote on it. It will never pass.
Which is why the "anti-Zionists" must trumpet this propaganda now before the bill is defeated and the wind taken out of their false sails.
Really,now... get a grip! The way to a peaceful world is equal rights for all, no double standards and observing the ancient Golden Rule--need I repeat it for you? "Do unto others as you would like others to do unto you." It's even at the UN in NY in a big mosaic.
Therefore, "Pray for the peaceful dismantling of the Zionist entity". (which is Israel, by the way.)
http://www.netureikarta.org or http://www.nkusa.org
Justice for ALL! No double standards! Ethnic cleansing can NEVER be justified no matter who does it to whom. Ethno-centricity does NOT work! Diversity DOES! DUH!
Therefore, "Pray for the peaceful dismantling of the Zionist entity". (which is Israel, by the way.)
http://www.netureikarta.org or http://www.nkusa.org
Justice for ALL! No double standards! Ethnic cleansing can NEVER be justified no matter who does it to whom. Ethno-centricity does NOT work! Diversity DOES! DUH!
Nice work fix.
some plan to dismantle an entity in order to provide equality sounds like a ends justify the means sort of logic. problem is even your ends doesnt seem very likely to result in equality.
some plan to dismantle an entity in order to provide equality sounds like a ends justify the means sort of logic. problem is even your ends doesnt seem very likely to result in equality.
Dismantling the Zionist entity is equivalent to when the White Supremacist government of South Africa was dismantled.
It's a good thing indeed.
Yeah, so what if South Africa is a "mess". At least it's a mess going in the right direction.
IsraHell is a MESS going south and it's dragging the whole world into its Black Hole with it.
Time to peacefully dismantle the Zionist entity of Israel and transform it into a true secular democracy with completely equal rights for all, regardless of religion, race, ethnicity or sex, including all the Palestinian refugees who must be allowed their right to return to Palestine-Israel.
It's a good thing indeed.
Yeah, so what if South Africa is a "mess". At least it's a mess going in the right direction.
IsraHell is a MESS going south and it's dragging the whole world into its Black Hole with it.
Time to peacefully dismantle the Zionist entity of Israel and transform it into a true secular democracy with completely equal rights for all, regardless of religion, race, ethnicity or sex, including all the Palestinian refugees who must be allowed their right to return to Palestine-Israel.
Yet no response on this point:
What should we think if a small group of radical right wing German Americans spoke out that Germany was not the German state?
Yet here we are to believe that a bunch (a dozen or two in the picture above) of right-wing religous fanatics, who condemn Zionists as "atheists", who are against abortion, against feminism, against gay rights, are suddenly on to something when they condemn Israel for not being religious enough?!
Notice that again there is no response to the other "anti-Zionist" lies noted above.
While some "anti-Zionists" here pretend that there is no campaign to destroy Israel, others are calling for just that!
Zionism is nothing more than Jewish nationalism.
The exclusive call for the dismantling of the Jewish state is a modern manifestation of anti-Semitism. the hatred of Jews.
What should we think if a small group of radical right wing German Americans spoke out that Germany was not the German state?
Yet here we are to believe that a bunch (a dozen or two in the picture above) of right-wing religous fanatics, who condemn Zionists as "atheists", who are against abortion, against feminism, against gay rights, are suddenly on to something when they condemn Israel for not being religious enough?!
Notice that again there is no response to the other "anti-Zionist" lies noted above.
While some "anti-Zionists" here pretend that there is no campaign to destroy Israel, others are calling for just that!
Zionism is nothing more than Jewish nationalism.
The exclusive call for the dismantling of the Jewish state is a modern manifestation of anti-Semitism. the hatred of Jews.
Windy Wendy: "Dismantling the Zionist entity is equivalent to when the White Supremacist government of South Africa was dismantled. "
Bad analogy --> bad conclusion.
Or else I seem to have missed the part where the ANC beltbombers started taking out night clubs and buses in Johannesburg, trying to kill as many white civilians as possible.
@%<
Bad analogy --> bad conclusion.
Or else I seem to have missed the part where the ANC beltbombers started taking out night clubs and buses in Johannesburg, trying to kill as many white civilians as possible.
@%<
We Zionists grieve for the fall of the South African apratheid regime. While it was around we gladly supported it with military and diplomatic aid, but now our role models are gone. Botha and the others have been an inspiration to our Zionist entity. We have proved to the world that what white racists can do to Africans, Israeli racists can also do to Palestinians. Let whites no longer imagine that hatred and discrimination are their trademark. Not only have we successfully adopted the apartheid dream, but also went a step further and successfully presented it to the world as an aspect of Jewish life, accusing everyone who disapproves of it as being antisemitic.
Dear SA apartheiders, we miss you! But we will ensure that your sick imperialist policies will live on!
- A concerned Zionist
Dear SA apartheiders, we miss you! But we will ensure that your sick imperialist policies will live on!
- A concerned Zionist
We supported the apartheid regime with the oil on which it literally ran. But why shouldn't we have? The restriction on rights to a segment of the South African population isn't that different from our own society where everyone is restricted and some are even more restricted. What next? Would the world complain about our on-going dabbling in the black slave trade? Let them try and we'll cut off their oil supply.
"some are even more restricted."
What? My dear brother Concerned Arab, you mean to tell me you still have non-Muslims living among you? This is a most saddening predicament. Don't you realize, that if you convert or kill all the non muslims, then there are no restrictions outside those of Islam itself -- which of course is no restriction but freedom to live in God's good will, or have your head cut off! Look at the example of Palestine, where we have purged Jews from much of our territory, and continue our attempts to clear our land of Jews, with the whole world's blessing of our sacred resistance. If not for the Americans and their advanced technology, I'm sure we could have our pure Islamic state (as mandated and ratified by Palestine Basic Law). But as long as the infidel dogs and monkeys have weapons to defend themselves, our struggle will continue. In'shallah!
What? My dear brother Concerned Arab, you mean to tell me you still have non-Muslims living among you? This is a most saddening predicament. Don't you realize, that if you convert or kill all the non muslims, then there are no restrictions outside those of Islam itself -- which of course is no restriction but freedom to live in God's good will, or have your head cut off! Look at the example of Palestine, where we have purged Jews from much of our territory, and continue our attempts to clear our land of Jews, with the whole world's blessing of our sacred resistance. If not for the Americans and their advanced technology, I'm sure we could have our pure Islamic state (as mandated and ratified by Palestine Basic Law). But as long as the infidel dogs and monkeys have weapons to defend themselves, our struggle will continue. In'shallah!
Dear concerned Arab and concerned Islamist,
It is a pleasure to finally meet someone who is so readily close to the Zionist ideology. I love your posts, guys. The Mossad is getting better and better at hiring secret agents. We really must meet one day, my dear friends. What position are you running for in the Knesset?
Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist
It is a pleasure to finally meet someone who is so readily close to the Zionist ideology. I love your posts, guys. The Mossad is getting better and better at hiring secret agents. We really must meet one day, my dear friends. What position are you running for in the Knesset?
Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist
"What position are you running for in the Knesset?"
What kind of question is that? Everyone knows only Jews are allowed to hold public office, vote, own land, or speak their opinions in Israel!
That is why it must be destroyed and replaced with an Arab Islamic Democracy, so the residents can be free like in all Arab nations. My hope is that someday all peoples of the world will enjoy the same political and religious freedoms as we Arabs do.
Heil Osama, Saddam, and Arafat!
-Concerned Islamic Jihadist
What kind of question is that? Everyone knows only Jews are allowed to hold public office, vote, own land, or speak their opinions in Israel!
That is why it must be destroyed and replaced with an Arab Islamic Democracy, so the residents can be free like in all Arab nations. My hope is that someday all peoples of the world will enjoy the same political and religious freedoms as we Arabs do.
Heil Osama, Saddam, and Arafat!
-Concerned Islamic Jihadist
Dear Concerned Jihadist,
How dare you claim that only Jews are allowed to hold public office in Israel?!! Do you think we Zionists want these crazy, peace-loving Torah followers in our Knesset?
Like Christianity and Islam, Judaism teaches morality, tolerance, and compassion. Do you think that in a Zionist nation such people would be allowed to mess things up for us? Of course we allow our members to wear skullcaps (the girls love them!) and visit the wailing wall to show to the world their determination to successfully mimic the Jewish faith!
We Zionists need to pretend that we are Jews so that Jerry Fallwell and the North American evangelicals like Bush in the white house will follow the instructions of our pro-Israel lobby. But please don't be daft and assume that we are actually Jews. Don't insult us by comparing us with something that does not even have half of the capacity to be as inhuman as we are. Unless of course, you happen to be an American taxpayer, then in that case, yes, we are Jews.
And please don't try to replace our oppressive Zionist regime with an oppressive Arabic regime.
We are the chosen people, and you aren't.
Know your place, goy.
Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist
How dare you claim that only Jews are allowed to hold public office in Israel?!! Do you think we Zionists want these crazy, peace-loving Torah followers in our Knesset?
Like Christianity and Islam, Judaism teaches morality, tolerance, and compassion. Do you think that in a Zionist nation such people would be allowed to mess things up for us? Of course we allow our members to wear skullcaps (the girls love them!) and visit the wailing wall to show to the world their determination to successfully mimic the Jewish faith!
We Zionists need to pretend that we are Jews so that Jerry Fallwell and the North American evangelicals like Bush in the white house will follow the instructions of our pro-Israel lobby. But please don't be daft and assume that we are actually Jews. Don't insult us by comparing us with something that does not even have half of the capacity to be as inhuman as we are. Unless of course, you happen to be an American taxpayer, then in that case, yes, we are Jews.
And please don't try to replace our oppressive Zionist regime with an oppressive Arabic regime.
We are the chosen people, and you aren't.
Know your place, goy.
Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist
"We are the chosen people, and you aren't. Know your place, goy."
The alleged satire of the would-be concerned Zionist has gone too far and naturally drifted into the realm of anti-Semitism, playing on the old chestnut that Jews are racists who consider themselves to be "chosen" and thus better than others.
The truth is very different, as related in Amos 3:2 which states: "You alone have I singled out of all the families of the earth. That is why I call you to account for all your iniquities."
Being "chosen" isn't a status, it's a duty and obligation.
The irony is that Christians who made this allegation were themselves guilty of it in as much as they believed that they had exclusive claim to the afterlife, to the detriment (Hell!) of all others.
Judaism has never looked down on non-Jews. Moses himself took a non-Jew for a wife. Nor is there any derision for converts. Consider that King David descended from Ruth (a convert) and that this is reputed to be the lineage of the messiah himself.
What next from concerned Zionist? Perverse allegations about Israelis poisoning wells and using the blood of Christian babies to make Passover matzahs?
The alleged satire of the would-be concerned Zionist has gone too far and naturally drifted into the realm of anti-Semitism, playing on the old chestnut that Jews are racists who consider themselves to be "chosen" and thus better than others.
The truth is very different, as related in Amos 3:2 which states: "You alone have I singled out of all the families of the earth. That is why I call you to account for all your iniquities."
Being "chosen" isn't a status, it's a duty and obligation.
The irony is that Christians who made this allegation were themselves guilty of it in as much as they believed that they had exclusive claim to the afterlife, to the detriment (Hell!) of all others.
Judaism has never looked down on non-Jews. Moses himself took a non-Jew for a wife. Nor is there any derision for converts. Consider that King David descended from Ruth (a convert) and that this is reputed to be the lineage of the messiah himself.
What next from concerned Zionist? Perverse allegations about Israelis poisoning wells and using the blood of Christian babies to make Passover matzahs?
The above post is accurate.
ANd the sad thing is that the staunch israel-haters out there are too blind to even see that the "Concerned zionist" troller, who mocks his twisted view of "zionists," HAS crossed the line, on numerous occasions, into the land of blanketed yet blatant anti-semitism. He pretends that the average zionist is a racist jew who has evil motives. Basically, he's accusing about 95% of jews on earth of being racist and hateful and evil, but in what is unfortnately seen as a politically correct way. He's absurd. And the israel-hating zionism-demonizing loons think he's witty and on to something. And they're the people behind many "peace" movements. THis is the problem.
ANd the sad thing is that the staunch israel-haters out there are too blind to even see that the "Concerned zionist" troller, who mocks his twisted view of "zionists," HAS crossed the line, on numerous occasions, into the land of blanketed yet blatant anti-semitism. He pretends that the average zionist is a racist jew who has evil motives. Basically, he's accusing about 95% of jews on earth of being racist and hateful and evil, but in what is unfortnately seen as a politically correct way. He's absurd. And the israel-hating zionism-demonizing loons think he's witty and on to something. And they're the people behind many "peace" movements. THis is the problem.
concerned zionist, is a cartoon ,nothing more,
yet he emphasizes that Judaism is not Zionism and that zionists do not condone many orthodox Jews who don't condone them...
yet he emphasizes that Judaism is not Zionism and that zionists do not condone many orthodox Jews who don't condone them...
If the majority of Jews in the world consider Zionism in its limited form to be a part if Judaism it would be reasonable to say that some atheist in the US would be mistaken to say otherwise. (even if he could find a jew who suppported him)
I haven’t done a survey but I expect that they do indeed see it as part of Judaism (although most would insist that it is done within humanist rules).
Concerned Zionist sees his cartoonist method as a way of making outrageous claims against Jews Zionists or Israelis without having to back them up or face normal criticism.
I haven’t done a survey but I expect that they do indeed see it as part of Judaism (although most would insist that it is done within humanist rules).
Concerned Zionist sees his cartoonist method as a way of making outrageous claims against Jews Zionists or Israelis without having to back them up or face normal criticism.
Point me to one of "Concerned Zionist"'s posts where he's made any claims against jews, outrageous or otherwise.
If you understood what I meant you would not need to ask that question.
If you didnt understand then it is presumably the fact that you dont see his joke as somthing that needs to have any basis in fact. Which is exactly the reason why I siad concerned zionist used that method.
If you didnt understand then it is presumably the fact that you dont see his joke as somthing that needs to have any basis in fact. Which is exactly the reason why I siad concerned zionist used that method.
In which one of his posts has Concerned Zionist made any claims, outrageous or otherwise, against jews?
You are the one who said he did. God knows I've read all of his posts here, and he's never had anything other than good things about the jewish religion.
You are the one who said he did. God knows I've read all of his posts here, and he's never had anything other than good things about the jewish religion.
CZ> We are the chosen people, and you aren't.
CZ> Know your place, goy.
The "we" refers to Jews, and is an appeal to an ancient anti-Semitic libel as "concerned humanist" eloquently demonstrated.
Strange, isn't it, that Angie is at odds with "concerned humanitarian". She would have us believe that her interestes are simply humanitarian, yet she won't extend that to Jews. Not only that, but she seems to only be concerned about humanitarian causes when Jews can be scapegoated.
Which certainly explains the selectivety that can easily be seen. Dozens of Articles about Israel's legal administration of the disputed territories, yet none about Syria's 27-year illegal occupation of Lebanon.
The sad reality is that Angie and other "anti-Zionists" use trumped up humanitarian concerns as an anti-Israel gimmick to recruit "useful idiots" to their cause.
CZ> Know your place, goy.
The "we" refers to Jews, and is an appeal to an ancient anti-Semitic libel as "concerned humanist" eloquently demonstrated.
Strange, isn't it, that Angie is at odds with "concerned humanitarian". She would have us believe that her interestes are simply humanitarian, yet she won't extend that to Jews. Not only that, but she seems to only be concerned about humanitarian causes when Jews can be scapegoated.
Which certainly explains the selectivety that can easily be seen. Dozens of Articles about Israel's legal administration of the disputed territories, yet none about Syria's 27-year illegal occupation of Lebanon.
The sad reality is that Angie and other "anti-Zionists" use trumped up humanitarian concerns as an anti-Israel gimmick to recruit "useful idiots" to their cause.
Well, to tell you the truth, I don't think Angie's thought it through that far. I think she's rather plainly one of the exploited rather than one of the exploiters.
A better example is Wendy Campbell, the one who organizes those demonstrations where, out of all of So Cal, she gets a dozen people together for an hour and then calls it a great victory. Around March or so, the neo-Nazi organization National Alliance set up a false-front site bashing Israel (and the site still exists, with a picture of Rachel Corrie on the front). And Wendy, none the wiser, championed the site for a couple of days -- "At last someone's doing something" -- until it became clear with a simple "whois" check that the site was registered to DavidDuke.com.
We're still waiting for her to say "oops," let alone "Sorry for promoting a neo-Nazi site."
@%<
@%<
A better example is Wendy Campbell, the one who organizes those demonstrations where, out of all of So Cal, she gets a dozen people together for an hour and then calls it a great victory. Around March or so, the neo-Nazi organization National Alliance set up a false-front site bashing Israel (and the site still exists, with a picture of Rachel Corrie on the front). And Wendy, none the wiser, championed the site for a couple of days -- "At last someone's doing something" -- until it became clear with a simple "whois" check that the site was registered to DavidDuke.com.
We're still waiting for her to say "oops," let alone "Sorry for promoting a neo-Nazi site."
@%<
@%<
Zionism means driving hundreds of thousands of people from their homes, and killing the ones who resist.
Criticism of Zionism is unfair, cruel, and should be punished by crushing with a bulldozer. Zionism is a perfect system. So what if we drive thousands of people from their homes and kill those who resist? These Palestinians should know by now that they have no right to keep their homes and their lands if they stand in Israel's way to expansion. Do THEY get 3 billion dollars a year from George Bush? I didn't think so, either.
It is hard to find any Jewish people who truly believe in their religion who will call others 'goys' or to believe themselves to be superior to others. That is why they can't ever be Zionists. We Zionists don't care what the Torah has to say, unless we can change it in some way to distort its' meaning like our worthy opponent Osama bin Laden (he has proved several times that unlike these incompetent peace activists, he can stoop down to a level that is as low as ours) does so nicely with the Koran. That is why we get support from the evangelicals in the USA by convincing the dumb Yanks that by helping us they are doing the Jewish people a favour. 'Wherever we stand, we stand with Israel' they chant happily, as we nod our heads in approval in New York and our boys in the IDF pick off children from rooftops in Ramallah. Then we collect their tax money to buy some new helicopters and tanks to continue our terror.
Poor Jerry Falwell is trying to convert us to his 'Christianity' from our 'Judaism'. It's funny, because he's not a Christian and we are definitely not Jews. Our hatred and arrogance and pride are too important to listen to what a bunch of people a few thousand years ago had to say about the peaceful coexistence of the human race.
Uhh, you may be right when you say that 95% of Jews are Zionists. In 1933, it was hard to find a German who was not a fan of Hitler. Were the Allies 'Anti- German' monsters or were they just determined to rid the world of fascism? Did the fall of Berlin in 1945 bring about the extinction of the entire German race? Why don't you ask Michael Schumacker what nationality he is? Most Germans one will meet today do not happen to the Nazis, and although our Zionist state still continues to murder and tyrranize, most Jews are waking up, too.
I know, I am as terrified as you are.
P.S. I would never claim that Israelis poison wells. We simply steal them, along with their lands and homes, from their original Palestinian inhabitants.
That is all for now, my Zionist brothers and anti-Zionist enemies.
Now please go and donate some money to the Israeli Defence Force.
Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist
It is hard to find any Jewish people who truly believe in their religion who will call others 'goys' or to believe themselves to be superior to others. That is why they can't ever be Zionists. We Zionists don't care what the Torah has to say, unless we can change it in some way to distort its' meaning like our worthy opponent Osama bin Laden (he has proved several times that unlike these incompetent peace activists, he can stoop down to a level that is as low as ours) does so nicely with the Koran. That is why we get support from the evangelicals in the USA by convincing the dumb Yanks that by helping us they are doing the Jewish people a favour. 'Wherever we stand, we stand with Israel' they chant happily, as we nod our heads in approval in New York and our boys in the IDF pick off children from rooftops in Ramallah. Then we collect their tax money to buy some new helicopters and tanks to continue our terror.
Poor Jerry Falwell is trying to convert us to his 'Christianity' from our 'Judaism'. It's funny, because he's not a Christian and we are definitely not Jews. Our hatred and arrogance and pride are too important to listen to what a bunch of people a few thousand years ago had to say about the peaceful coexistence of the human race.
Uhh, you may be right when you say that 95% of Jews are Zionists. In 1933, it was hard to find a German who was not a fan of Hitler. Were the Allies 'Anti- German' monsters or were they just determined to rid the world of fascism? Did the fall of Berlin in 1945 bring about the extinction of the entire German race? Why don't you ask Michael Schumacker what nationality he is? Most Germans one will meet today do not happen to the Nazis, and although our Zionist state still continues to murder and tyrranize, most Jews are waking up, too.
I know, I am as terrified as you are.
P.S. I would never claim that Israelis poison wells. We simply steal them, along with their lands and homes, from their original Palestinian inhabitants.
That is all for now, my Zionist brothers and anti-Zionist enemies.
Now please go and donate some money to the Israeli Defence Force.
Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist
Criticism of Zionism is unfair, cruel, and should be punished by crushing with a bulldozer. Zionism is a perfect system. So what if we drive thousands of people from their homes and kill those who resist? These Palestinians should know by now that they have no right to keep their homes and their lands if they stand in Israel's way to expansion. Do THEY get 3 billion dollars a year from George Bush? I didn't think so, either.
It is hard to find any Jewish people who truly believe in their religion who will call others 'goys' or to believe themselves to be superior to others. That is why they can't ever be Zionists. We Zionists don't care what the Torah has to say, unless we can change it in some way to distort its' meaning like our worthy opponent Osama bin Laden (he has proved several times that unlike these incompetent peace activists, he can stoop down to a level that is as low as ours) does so nicely with the Koran. That is why we get support from the evangelicals in the USA by convincing the dumb Yanks that by helping us they are doing the Jewish people a favour. 'Wherever we stand, we stand with Israel' they chant happily, as we nod our heads in approval in New York and our boys in the IDF pick off children from rooftops in Ramallah. Then we collect their tax money to buy some new helicopters and tanks to continue our terror.
Poor Jerry Falwell is trying to convert us to his 'Christianity' from our 'Judaism'. It's funny, because he's not a Christian and we are definitely not Jews. Our hatred and arrogance and pride are too important to listen to what a bunch of people a few thousand years ago had to say about the peaceful coexistence of the human race.
Uhh, you may be right when you say that 95% of Jews are Zionists. In 1933, it was hard to find a German who was not a fan of Hitler. Were the Allies 'Anti- German' monsters or were they just determined to rid the world of fascism? Did the fall of Berlin in 1945 bring about the extinction of the entire German race? Why don't you ask Michael Schumacker what nationality he is? Most Germans one will meet today do not happen to the Nazis, and although our Zionist state still continues to murder and tyrranize, most Jews are waking up, too.
I know, I am as terrified as you are.
P.S. I would never claim that Israelis poison wells. We simply steal them, along with their lands and homes, from their original Palestinian inhabitants.
That is all for now, my Zionist brothers and anti-Zionist enemies.
Now please go and donate some money to the Israeli Defence Force.
Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist
It is hard to find any Jewish people who truly believe in their religion who will call others 'goys' or to believe themselves to be superior to others. That is why they can't ever be Zionists. We Zionists don't care what the Torah has to say, unless we can change it in some way to distort its' meaning like our worthy opponent Osama bin Laden (he has proved several times that unlike these incompetent peace activists, he can stoop down to a level that is as low as ours) does so nicely with the Koran. That is why we get support from the evangelicals in the USA by convincing the dumb Yanks that by helping us they are doing the Jewish people a favour. 'Wherever we stand, we stand with Israel' they chant happily, as we nod our heads in approval in New York and our boys in the IDF pick off children from rooftops in Ramallah. Then we collect their tax money to buy some new helicopters and tanks to continue our terror.
Poor Jerry Falwell is trying to convert us to his 'Christianity' from our 'Judaism'. It's funny, because he's not a Christian and we are definitely not Jews. Our hatred and arrogance and pride are too important to listen to what a bunch of people a few thousand years ago had to say about the peaceful coexistence of the human race.
Uhh, you may be right when you say that 95% of Jews are Zionists. In 1933, it was hard to find a German who was not a fan of Hitler. Were the Allies 'Anti- German' monsters or were they just determined to rid the world of fascism? Did the fall of Berlin in 1945 bring about the extinction of the entire German race? Why don't you ask Michael Schumacker what nationality he is? Most Germans one will meet today do not happen to the Nazis, and although our Zionist state still continues to murder and tyrranize, most Jews are waking up, too.
I know, I am as terrified as you are.
P.S. I would never claim that Israelis poison wells. We simply steal them, along with their lands and homes, from their original Palestinian inhabitants.
That is all for now, my Zionist brothers and anti-Zionist enemies.
Now please go and donate some money to the Israeli Defence Force.
Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist
What's this, I asked, with interest last night as I was perusing the Board and saw - gasp - criticism of thou!
Your breathen is really sinking to the lowest of all levels right now, my dear Concerned Zionist, when you are being - oh, my God! - dare I say it - discussed in some not so friendly terms.
Thus it was great to see the above spiel and note that sticks and stones are not going to keep you from your chosen path in life!
Now if only you and your bulldozer had been in Jenin that fateful two week period in April 02!!!! You could have told us THE TRUTH! Because, of course, that's one of your most endearing qualities!!!!
Well, my friend, I must now get back at it, the next installment of Jenin, you know, and listen! Can you hear me? Whispering here! "They" don't like it!! Sssh! Don't tell anyone!!
Angie
Your breathen is really sinking to the lowest of all levels right now, my dear Concerned Zionist, when you are being - oh, my God! - dare I say it - discussed in some not so friendly terms.
Thus it was great to see the above spiel and note that sticks and stones are not going to keep you from your chosen path in life!
Now if only you and your bulldozer had been in Jenin that fateful two week period in April 02!!!! You could have told us THE TRUTH! Because, of course, that's one of your most endearing qualities!!!!
Well, my friend, I must now get back at it, the next installment of Jenin, you know, and listen! Can you hear me? Whispering here! "They" don't like it!! Sssh! Don't tell anyone!!
Angie
I was desperatly trying to figure out a method of explination that would not shoot straight over angies head. But it seems that is not possible.
What's the problem, man?
Am I not responding to all the nasty jibes thrown my way by yourself (and the infamous "we")? That I am not leaping to my feet and shoutiing "Scottie's correct"! Oh, woe is me! (Wringing hands here).
Too bad! But you're right about one thing! I'm having an easier time studying my Scottish Gaelic than I am at grasping what you're going on about.
Am I not responding to all the nasty jibes thrown my way by yourself (and the infamous "we")? That I am not leaping to my feet and shoutiing "Scottie's correct"! Oh, woe is me! (Wringing hands here).
Too bad! But you're right about one thing! I'm having an easier time studying my Scottish Gaelic than I am at grasping what you're going on about.
Perhaps you could convey to your colleague, KL, that the only smear campaign on this Board right now is the one that's being conducted against myself.
the only smear campaign on this Board right now is the one that's being conducted against myself.
you poor "widdle - ting"
now all you meanies out there QUIT PICKING ON ANGIE
you poor "widdle - ting"
now all you meanies out there QUIT PICKING ON ANGIE
"the only smear campaign on this Board right now is the one that's being conducted against myself."
But to be fair, Angie probably actually believes this.
@%<
But to be fair, Angie probably actually believes this.
@%<
Dear Scottie and gehrig,
I know how angry you must be at Angie for being critical of our divine Zionist policies. She outrageously claims there is a 'smear campaign' being conducted against her (as if signing falsely under someone's name could be considered to be a form of 'smear'- deception is standard Israeli policy!). We claim that Zionism is a good thing and try to convince the world of this, in spite of the fact that probably ever human rights and UN group would disagree with us, as would anyone who knows anything about what is now happening in the Middle East.
Luckily, the US government doesn't pay humanity oriented fanatics like Angie 3 billion dollars a year like he does to us. Or we would be screwed, because the majority of the world already knows the truth about what we do and probably stands by her side.
Zionism doesn't pay. But luckily the American taxpayer does.
Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist
I know how angry you must be at Angie for being critical of our divine Zionist policies. She outrageously claims there is a 'smear campaign' being conducted against her (as if signing falsely under someone's name could be considered to be a form of 'smear'- deception is standard Israeli policy!). We claim that Zionism is a good thing and try to convince the world of this, in spite of the fact that probably ever human rights and UN group would disagree with us, as would anyone who knows anything about what is now happening in the Middle East.
Luckily, the US government doesn't pay humanity oriented fanatics like Angie 3 billion dollars a year like he does to us. Or we would be screwed, because the majority of the world already knows the truth about what we do and probably stands by her side.
Zionism doesn't pay. But luckily the American taxpayer does.
Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist
Angie
"What's the problem, man?
Am I not responding to all the nasty jibes thrown my way by yourself (and the infamous "we")?"
I was aware that KL and geireig stated the point I was trying to make more clearly than me. The reason why that was was that I was trying to explain it in a way that would not have you all confused like in the "canada" example.
Since you agreed with me in the post your sarcasm was unwarented
"What's the problem, man?
Am I not responding to all the nasty jibes thrown my way by yourself (and the infamous "we")?"
I was aware that KL and geireig stated the point I was trying to make more clearly than me. The reason why that was was that I was trying to explain it in a way that would not have you all confused like in the "canada" example.
Since you agreed with me in the post your sarcasm was unwarented
This is only an excerpt. The rest of the article is very interesting and revealing.
In parts of this article, quoted sections refer to "the Jews" rather than "the Israelis" because at that time (pre-1948), the state of Israel did not exist. Just needed to point that out so that the context is understood.
Excerpt (full story in link at end):
POISONING ACRE WATER SUPPLY: In the wake of Haifa's occupation on 23 April 1948 by the Zionists, under the nose of the British Mandate forces commended by General Stockwell, a man still historically discredited for this failure, thousands converged on Acre, a nearby city, which was still Arab under the "protection" of the British forces.
Acre was to be the next Zionist target. The Zionists besieged the city from the land side, and started showering the population with a hail of mortar bombs day and night. Famous for its historical walls, Acre could stand the siege for a long time. The city water supply comes from a nearby village, Kabri, about 10kms to the north, through an aqueduct. The Zionists injected typhoid in the aqueduct at some intermediate point which passes through Zionist settlements. (see map)
The story can now be told, thanks to the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) files which have now become available, 50 years after the event. A series of reports, under the reference G59/1/GC, G3/82, sent by ICRC delegate de Meuron from 6 May to about 19 May 1948 describe the conditions of the city population, struck by a sudden typhoid epidemic, and the efforts to combat it.
Of particular importance are the minutes of an emergency conference held at the Lebanese Red Cross Hospital in Acre on 6 May, to deal with the typhoid epidemic. The meeting was attended by: Brigadier Beveridge, Chief of British Medical Services and Colonel Bonnet of the British Army, Dr Maclean of the Medical Services, Mr de Meuron, ICRC delegate in addition to other officials of the city. The minutes stated that there are at least 70 known civilian casualties, others may not be reported. It was determined that the infection is "water borne", not due to crowded or unhygienic conditions as claimed by the Israelis. It was decided that a substitute water supply should now come from artesian wells or from the agricultural station, just north of Acre (see map), not from the aqueduct. Water chlorine solution was applied, inoculation of civil population started, movement of civil population was controlled (lest refugees heading north towards Lebanon will carry the typhoid epidemic with them, as intended by the Zionists).
In his other reports, de Meuron mentioned 55 casualties among British soldiers, who were spirited away to Port Said for hospitalisation. General Stockwell arranged for de Meuron to fly on a military plane to Jerusalem to fetch medicine. The British, who left Palestine in the hands of the Jews, did not want another embarrassing incident to delay their departure.
Brigadier Beveridge told de Meuron that this is "the first time this happened in Palestine". This belies the Israeli story, including that of the Israeli historian Benny Morris, that the epidemic is due to "unhygienic conditions" of the refugees. If that was so, how come there was an almost equal number of casualties among British soldiers? Why did such conditions not cause epidemic in such other concentrations of refugees, under far worse conditions, in Jaffa, Lydda, Nazareth and Gaza?
ICRC delegate, de Meuron admired greatly the heroic efforts of Arab doctors, Al-Dahhan and Al-Araj from the Lebanese Red Cross hospital in Acre, Dr Dabbas from Haifa and Mrs Bahai from Haifa.
The city of Acre, now burdened by the epidemic, fell easy prey to the Zionists. They intensified their bombardment. Trucks carrying loudspeakers proclaimed, "Surrender or commit suicide. We will destroy you to the last man." That was not a figure of speech. Palumbo, in The Palestinian Catastrophe, notes the "typical" case of Mohamed Fayez Soufi. Soufi with friends went to get food from their homes in a new Acre suburb. They were caught by Zionist soldiers and forced at gun point to drink cyanide. Soufi faked swallowing the poison. The others were not so lucky, they died in half an hour.
Lieutenant Petite, a French UN observer, reported that looting was being conducted in a systematic manner by the army, carrying off furniture, clothes and anything useful for the new Jewish immigrants and also part of "a Jewish plan to prevent the return of the refugees." Lieutenant Petite also reported that the Jews had murdered 100 Arab civilians in Acre, particularly those who refused to leave.
More horrors have been reported by de Meuron. He spoke of "a reign of terror" and the case of the rape of a girl by several soldiers and killing her father. He also wrote that all male civilians were taken to concentration camps and considered "prisoners of war" although they were not soldiers. This left many women and children homeless, without protection, subject to many acts of violence. He also notes the absence of water and electricity. He demanded from the Zionists a list of civilians detained as "prisoners of war", demanded to know their whereabouts and permission to visit them. More importantly he asked that Acre be placed under ICRC protection and care. Anyone who reads the familiar dry and matter-of-fact language of ICRC would not fail to notice the tone of abhorrence of Zionist actions in de Meuron reports from Acre.
This episode, which started with poisoning Acre water supply and ended with the collapse of the city, the depopulation of its inhabitants, and its occupation by the Jews, whetted their appetite to try this crime again.
GAZA POISONING: Two weeks later, after their "success" in Acre, the Zionists struck again. This time in Gaza, where hundreds of thousands of refugees had gathered after their villages in southern Palestine were occupied. The end however was different.
The following cable was sent from the commander of the Egyptian Forces in Palestine to General Headquarters in Cairo:
"15.20 hrs, 24 May [1948] Our Intelligence forces captured two Jews, David Horeen and David Mizrahi, loitering around army positions. They were interrogated and confessed they had been sent by Officer Moshe to poison the army [and the peoples'] water supply. They carried with them water bottles divided in the middle. The top part has potable water and the bottom part has a liquid contaminated with typhoid and dysentery, equipped with a rear opening from which the liquid can be released. They confessed they were members of a 20-strong team sent from Rehovot for the same purpose. Both have written their confession in Hebrew and signed it. We have taken the necessary medical precautions."
In Ben Gurion's War Diary, the following entry is found on 27 May 1948:
"[Chief of Staff Yigel Yadin] picked up a cable from Gaza saying they captured Jews carrying malaria germs and gave instructions not to drink water". This is typical of Ben Gurion's oblique writing of history. He was fully aware of the weight of history when such crimes are discovered. Nuremberg trials were held only three years before. More on the background of this cable was given in Yeruham Cohen's book, In Daylight and Night Darkness, Tel Aviv, 1969, pp66-68 (in Hebrew).
The criminals were executed three months later. On 22 July 1948, the [Palestinian] Higher Arab Committee (AHC) submitted a 13-page report to the United Nations accusing the Jews of using "inhuman" weapons and waging a genocide war against the Arabs through the use of bacteria and germs, developed in specially-built laboratories. The report also accuses the Jews (the word Israel was not used) of spreading cholera in Egypt and Syria in 1947/48. The story was picked up by the award-winning journalist, Thomas J Hamilton of the New York Times and published on 24 July 1948. The story now has a new twist- adding Egypt and Syria to the Jewish field of operations.
CHOLERA IN EGYPT AND SYRIA: The summer of 1947 was hot with diplomatic activity. The United Nations Special Committee on Palestine (UNSCOP) was busy touring Palestine and Arab countries in order to propose the partition of Palestine such that the new Jewish immigrants to Palestine, who controlled only six per cent of Palestine under the British Mandate, be given a big chunk of Palestine (turned out to be 54 per cent) in order to establish a foreign state in the midst of Arab land.
The Arabs, still under the tutelage of Britain, were debating how to resist the Western-supported scheme to take away their land. The forces to reckon with were neighbouring countries with common borders with Palestine. Lebanon was weak. Trans-Jordan was still controlled directly by the British and King Abdullah was conciliatory to the Jews. This left Egypt, the stronger Arab country and Syria, recently freed from the clutches of the French Mandate. Syria was the centre of Arab resistance to the foreign occupation of Palestine. Training centres were established in Qatana to prepare Arab volunteers to enter Palestine under the banner of "The Arab Rescue Army". Egypt and Palestine were thus the most important targets.
In his 220-page continually updated report, entitled: Bioterrorism and Biocrimes: The Illicit Use of Biological Agents since 1900, dated February 2001, Dr W Seth Carus of the Center for Counterproliferation Research, National Defence University, Washington, DC, lists the following subtitle, p.87: Case 1947-01: "Zionist" Terrorists 1947-1948.
Under this section, he mentions that the cholera outbreaks in Syria and Egypt received extensive attention in the international press. The first report about the cholera in Egypt was published in the Times of London on 26 September, 1947, p4. By the time the final cases appeared in January 1948, 10,262 people died.
In parts of this article, quoted sections refer to "the Jews" rather than "the Israelis" because at that time (pre-1948), the state of Israel did not exist. Just needed to point that out so that the context is understood.
Excerpt (full story in link at end):
POISONING ACRE WATER SUPPLY: In the wake of Haifa's occupation on 23 April 1948 by the Zionists, under the nose of the British Mandate forces commended by General Stockwell, a man still historically discredited for this failure, thousands converged on Acre, a nearby city, which was still Arab under the "protection" of the British forces.
Acre was to be the next Zionist target. The Zionists besieged the city from the land side, and started showering the population with a hail of mortar bombs day and night. Famous for its historical walls, Acre could stand the siege for a long time. The city water supply comes from a nearby village, Kabri, about 10kms to the north, through an aqueduct. The Zionists injected typhoid in the aqueduct at some intermediate point which passes through Zionist settlements. (see map)
The story can now be told, thanks to the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) files which have now become available, 50 years after the event. A series of reports, under the reference G59/1/GC, G3/82, sent by ICRC delegate de Meuron from 6 May to about 19 May 1948 describe the conditions of the city population, struck by a sudden typhoid epidemic, and the efforts to combat it.
Of particular importance are the minutes of an emergency conference held at the Lebanese Red Cross Hospital in Acre on 6 May, to deal with the typhoid epidemic. The meeting was attended by: Brigadier Beveridge, Chief of British Medical Services and Colonel Bonnet of the British Army, Dr Maclean of the Medical Services, Mr de Meuron, ICRC delegate in addition to other officials of the city. The minutes stated that there are at least 70 known civilian casualties, others may not be reported. It was determined that the infection is "water borne", not due to crowded or unhygienic conditions as claimed by the Israelis. It was decided that a substitute water supply should now come from artesian wells or from the agricultural station, just north of Acre (see map), not from the aqueduct. Water chlorine solution was applied, inoculation of civil population started, movement of civil population was controlled (lest refugees heading north towards Lebanon will carry the typhoid epidemic with them, as intended by the Zionists).
In his other reports, de Meuron mentioned 55 casualties among British soldiers, who were spirited away to Port Said for hospitalisation. General Stockwell arranged for de Meuron to fly on a military plane to Jerusalem to fetch medicine. The British, who left Palestine in the hands of the Jews, did not want another embarrassing incident to delay their departure.
Brigadier Beveridge told de Meuron that this is "the first time this happened in Palestine". This belies the Israeli story, including that of the Israeli historian Benny Morris, that the epidemic is due to "unhygienic conditions" of the refugees. If that was so, how come there was an almost equal number of casualties among British soldiers? Why did such conditions not cause epidemic in such other concentrations of refugees, under far worse conditions, in Jaffa, Lydda, Nazareth and Gaza?
ICRC delegate, de Meuron admired greatly the heroic efforts of Arab doctors, Al-Dahhan and Al-Araj from the Lebanese Red Cross hospital in Acre, Dr Dabbas from Haifa and Mrs Bahai from Haifa.
The city of Acre, now burdened by the epidemic, fell easy prey to the Zionists. They intensified their bombardment. Trucks carrying loudspeakers proclaimed, "Surrender or commit suicide. We will destroy you to the last man." That was not a figure of speech. Palumbo, in The Palestinian Catastrophe, notes the "typical" case of Mohamed Fayez Soufi. Soufi with friends went to get food from their homes in a new Acre suburb. They were caught by Zionist soldiers and forced at gun point to drink cyanide. Soufi faked swallowing the poison. The others were not so lucky, they died in half an hour.
Lieutenant Petite, a French UN observer, reported that looting was being conducted in a systematic manner by the army, carrying off furniture, clothes and anything useful for the new Jewish immigrants and also part of "a Jewish plan to prevent the return of the refugees." Lieutenant Petite also reported that the Jews had murdered 100 Arab civilians in Acre, particularly those who refused to leave.
More horrors have been reported by de Meuron. He spoke of "a reign of terror" and the case of the rape of a girl by several soldiers and killing her father. He also wrote that all male civilians were taken to concentration camps and considered "prisoners of war" although they were not soldiers. This left many women and children homeless, without protection, subject to many acts of violence. He also notes the absence of water and electricity. He demanded from the Zionists a list of civilians detained as "prisoners of war", demanded to know their whereabouts and permission to visit them. More importantly he asked that Acre be placed under ICRC protection and care. Anyone who reads the familiar dry and matter-of-fact language of ICRC would not fail to notice the tone of abhorrence of Zionist actions in de Meuron reports from Acre.
This episode, which started with poisoning Acre water supply and ended with the collapse of the city, the depopulation of its inhabitants, and its occupation by the Jews, whetted their appetite to try this crime again.
GAZA POISONING: Two weeks later, after their "success" in Acre, the Zionists struck again. This time in Gaza, where hundreds of thousands of refugees had gathered after their villages in southern Palestine were occupied. The end however was different.
The following cable was sent from the commander of the Egyptian Forces in Palestine to General Headquarters in Cairo:
"15.20 hrs, 24 May [1948] Our Intelligence forces captured two Jews, David Horeen and David Mizrahi, loitering around army positions. They were interrogated and confessed they had been sent by Officer Moshe to poison the army [and the peoples'] water supply. They carried with them water bottles divided in the middle. The top part has potable water and the bottom part has a liquid contaminated with typhoid and dysentery, equipped with a rear opening from which the liquid can be released. They confessed they were members of a 20-strong team sent from Rehovot for the same purpose. Both have written their confession in Hebrew and signed it. We have taken the necessary medical precautions."
In Ben Gurion's War Diary, the following entry is found on 27 May 1948:
"[Chief of Staff Yigel Yadin] picked up a cable from Gaza saying they captured Jews carrying malaria germs and gave instructions not to drink water". This is typical of Ben Gurion's oblique writing of history. He was fully aware of the weight of history when such crimes are discovered. Nuremberg trials were held only three years before. More on the background of this cable was given in Yeruham Cohen's book, In Daylight and Night Darkness, Tel Aviv, 1969, pp66-68 (in Hebrew).
The criminals were executed three months later. On 22 July 1948, the [Palestinian] Higher Arab Committee (AHC) submitted a 13-page report to the United Nations accusing the Jews of using "inhuman" weapons and waging a genocide war against the Arabs through the use of bacteria and germs, developed in specially-built laboratories. The report also accuses the Jews (the word Israel was not used) of spreading cholera in Egypt and Syria in 1947/48. The story was picked up by the award-winning journalist, Thomas J Hamilton of the New York Times and published on 24 July 1948. The story now has a new twist- adding Egypt and Syria to the Jewish field of operations.
CHOLERA IN EGYPT AND SYRIA: The summer of 1947 was hot with diplomatic activity. The United Nations Special Committee on Palestine (UNSCOP) was busy touring Palestine and Arab countries in order to propose the partition of Palestine such that the new Jewish immigrants to Palestine, who controlled only six per cent of Palestine under the British Mandate, be given a big chunk of Palestine (turned out to be 54 per cent) in order to establish a foreign state in the midst of Arab land.
The Arabs, still under the tutelage of Britain, were debating how to resist the Western-supported scheme to take away their land. The forces to reckon with were neighbouring countries with common borders with Palestine. Lebanon was weak. Trans-Jordan was still controlled directly by the British and King Abdullah was conciliatory to the Jews. This left Egypt, the stronger Arab country and Syria, recently freed from the clutches of the French Mandate. Syria was the centre of Arab resistance to the foreign occupation of Palestine. Training centres were established in Qatana to prepare Arab volunteers to enter Palestine under the banner of "The Arab Rescue Army". Egypt and Palestine were thus the most important targets.
In his 220-page continually updated report, entitled: Bioterrorism and Biocrimes: The Illicit Use of Biological Agents since 1900, dated February 2001, Dr W Seth Carus of the Center for Counterproliferation Research, National Defence University, Washington, DC, lists the following subtitle, p.87: Case 1947-01: "Zionist" Terrorists 1947-1948.
Under this section, he mentions that the cholera outbreaks in Syria and Egypt received extensive attention in the international press. The first report about the cholera in Egypt was published in the Times of London on 26 September, 1947, p4. By the time the final cases appeared in January 1948, 10,262 people died.
For more information:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/a...
since when is the red cross in charge of bio weapons control?
Biological Agents of this type had not yet been invented
the majority of these claims are ridicules and beyond the scientific abilities of the time, propaganda?(most likely)and the only thing this proves is that the author has no idea of what he/she is talking about.
but the conspiracy nuts will go for this
Yeah, the way that Ben-Gurion quote is offered as "proof" is a riot.
Middle ages: baseless allegations that the Jews poison wells.
Indybay today: baseless allegations that "the Zionists" *wink wink* poison wells.
So much for progress.
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Middle ages: baseless allegations that the Jews poison wells.
Indybay today: baseless allegations that "the Zionists" *wink wink* poison wells.
So much for progress.
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The above "report" pretends that the ICRC is its's source:
> The story can now be told, thanks to the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) files which have now become available
but all the ICRC documents say is that there was indeed the outbreak of disease, something which was very common during wars - even among British and other soldiers. Thus the argument that this couldn't have been natural because British soldiers also fell victim is laughable.
So is the rest. For example:
> The British, who left Palestine in the hands of the Jews, did not want another embarrassing incident to delay their departure.
Except that the British hadn't yet "left" the region. And when they did, they didn't leave it "in the hands of the Jews". The British, who had long favored the Arabs (since oil had been discovered), left all military and police bases in the hands of the Arabs.
> In the wake of Haifa's occupation on 23 April 1948 by the Zionists, ...thousands converged on Acre
Haifa was part of the area allocated by the UN to Israel, so it is entirely fallacious under any circumstances to claim that Haifa was "occupied". But to judge the credibility of this story, let's first take a look at what really happened in Haifa.
Time wrote (May 1948):
|| The mass evacuation, prompted partly by fear, partly by orders of Arab leaders, left the Arab quarter of Haifa a ghost city... By withdrawing Arab workers their leaders hoped to paralyze Haifa.
The US Consul-General in Haifa, Aubrey Lippincott, wrote that:
|| local mufti-dominated Arab leaders [urged] all Arabs to leave the city.
A British police report stated that:
|| every effort is being made by the Jews to persuade the Arab populace to stay and carry on with their lives.
Wow. The article above totally misrepresented this event and others, as well as pretending that the ICRC was its source and supports what it states. Why should we believe anything else written in this piece of spam-propaganda?
Oh, this part was also funny:
> the [Palestinian] Higher Arab Committee (AHC)... the Jews (the word Israel was not used)
Israel didn't exist in 1947 (the time of the events being discussed), so it isn't at all surprising that the report refers to the Jews or the Jewish Agency. In contrast, note that the Arabs where not called "Palestinians" at this time. There was no such distinct identity until the second half of the 20th century.
What could possibly motivate someone to write (or regurgitate) such garbage?!
Either these are Arabs pursuing their anti-Israel agenda, or these are Jew-haters riding piggy-back on the above.
> The story can now be told, thanks to the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) files which have now become available
but all the ICRC documents say is that there was indeed the outbreak of disease, something which was very common during wars - even among British and other soldiers. Thus the argument that this couldn't have been natural because British soldiers also fell victim is laughable.
So is the rest. For example:
> The British, who left Palestine in the hands of the Jews, did not want another embarrassing incident to delay their departure.
Except that the British hadn't yet "left" the region. And when they did, they didn't leave it "in the hands of the Jews". The British, who had long favored the Arabs (since oil had been discovered), left all military and police bases in the hands of the Arabs.
> In the wake of Haifa's occupation on 23 April 1948 by the Zionists, ...thousands converged on Acre
Haifa was part of the area allocated by the UN to Israel, so it is entirely fallacious under any circumstances to claim that Haifa was "occupied". But to judge the credibility of this story, let's first take a look at what really happened in Haifa.
Time wrote (May 1948):
|| The mass evacuation, prompted partly by fear, partly by orders of Arab leaders, left the Arab quarter of Haifa a ghost city... By withdrawing Arab workers their leaders hoped to paralyze Haifa.
The US Consul-General in Haifa, Aubrey Lippincott, wrote that:
|| local mufti-dominated Arab leaders [urged] all Arabs to leave the city.
A British police report stated that:
|| every effort is being made by the Jews to persuade the Arab populace to stay and carry on with their lives.
Wow. The article above totally misrepresented this event and others, as well as pretending that the ICRC was its source and supports what it states. Why should we believe anything else written in this piece of spam-propaganda?
Oh, this part was also funny:
> the [Palestinian] Higher Arab Committee (AHC)... the Jews (the word Israel was not used)
Israel didn't exist in 1947 (the time of the events being discussed), so it isn't at all surprising that the report refers to the Jews or the Jewish Agency. In contrast, note that the Arabs where not called "Palestinians" at this time. There was no such distinct identity until the second half of the 20th century.
What could possibly motivate someone to write (or regurgitate) such garbage?!
Either these are Arabs pursuing their anti-Israel agenda, or these are Jew-haters riding piggy-back on the above.
Yup. That's right. Whenever information is presented which shows some of the behavior of Zionists in creating their state, the usual charges of "anti-Semitism" begin to fly.
As Alexander Cockburn once noted, charges of anti-Semitism fluctuate with the behavior of the state of Israel at any given moment in time.
Once again, the charge of "anti-Semitism" is used in an attempt to shut down debate on Israel's behavior and that waters down the real meaning of the term. People like gehrig swear up and down that criticism of Israel's behavior is not anti-Semitism but when you actually try to point out some of its actions, the charge is made with abandon.
As Alexander Cockburn once noted, charges of anti-Semitism fluctuate with the behavior of the state of Israel at any given moment in time.
Once again, the charge of "anti-Semitism" is used in an attempt to shut down debate on Israel's behavior and that waters down the real meaning of the term. People like gehrig swear up and down that criticism of Israel's behavior is not anti-Semitism but when you actually try to point out some of its actions, the charge is made with abandon.
"As Alexander Cockburn once noted, charges of anti-Semitism fluctuate with the behavior of the state of Israel at any given moment in time. "
In a sense, he's right -- that is, the excuse of the moment fluctuates. But the antisemitic double standard remains all too common.
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In a sense, he's right -- that is, the excuse of the moment fluctuates. But the antisemitic double standard remains all too common.
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Anony-mouse: " People like gehrig swear up and down that criticism of Israel's behavior is not anti-Semitism"
You know, what I'm saying is _so_ simple I'm amazed that you _still_ haven't gotten it.
What I "swear up and down" -- to explain yet again, just as I did the last time I said this and then predicted someone would jam into my mouth exactly what Anony-mouse did -- is that as a category, criticism of Israel is neither AUTOMATICALLY antisemitism nor AUTOMATICALLY NOT antisemitism; both kinds of criticism exist, and both kinds are apparent on Indybay.
Now, how long will it be _this_ time before someone tries yet again to jam Anony-mouse's miscomprehension into my mouth?
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You know, what I'm saying is _so_ simple I'm amazed that you _still_ haven't gotten it.
What I "swear up and down" -- to explain yet again, just as I did the last time I said this and then predicted someone would jam into my mouth exactly what Anony-mouse did -- is that as a category, criticism of Israel is neither AUTOMATICALLY antisemitism nor AUTOMATICALLY NOT antisemitism; both kinds of criticism exist, and both kinds are apparent on Indybay.
Now, how long will it be _this_ time before someone tries yet again to jam Anony-mouse's miscomprehension into my mouth?
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No. Valid criticism of Israel's govt, in a balanced way, taking into account actions other people and other countries and other leaders commit that are directly relevalant to how israel responds, is fine.
But the people on this planet who SINGLE ISRAEL OUT in EXAGGERATED, DISHONEST fashion while making apoligies for the crazed nutcases who lust at the mere thought of killing jews usually tend to be jew-hating anti-semites who just don't have the guts to admit it so they hide under the guise of political correctness and pretend they only hate "zionists," as if that's somehow better.
Israel was formed the same way half the countries on this planet were formed. If you want to break israel up, you should also want to break up pakistan, half the arab countries, australia, america, and a giant stack of other nations. To single israel out with your bullshit reasons is usually due to anti-semitic feelings, that you're ok with all the muslim nations formed by force, and you're ok with all the muslim nations formed naturally, and you're ok with all the other nations formed by carving up territories or other lands, but you want to OBSESS, CONSTANTLY, on the one little tiny jewish nation.
Israel isn't leaving, and you stupid cowards who don't have the guts to admit that you basically just want israeli jews to do and instead have to hide and pretend you're good people need to get it into your heads.
About 200,000 people have been murdered in Africa in the last two years. Go stand in front of african militas and put a little fucking red flag on your hat.
Also, this message board and cali protests have also taught me that a great number of "peace activists" seem to have a totally fucked up definition of "zionism" that doesn't jive whatsoever with the actual practical and realistic definition. It's getting hard to respond to people who take words, twist them into some absurd meaning, and then demand responses to their absurdity.
But the people on this planet who SINGLE ISRAEL OUT in EXAGGERATED, DISHONEST fashion while making apoligies for the crazed nutcases who lust at the mere thought of killing jews usually tend to be jew-hating anti-semites who just don't have the guts to admit it so they hide under the guise of political correctness and pretend they only hate "zionists," as if that's somehow better.
Israel was formed the same way half the countries on this planet were formed. If you want to break israel up, you should also want to break up pakistan, half the arab countries, australia, america, and a giant stack of other nations. To single israel out with your bullshit reasons is usually due to anti-semitic feelings, that you're ok with all the muslim nations formed by force, and you're ok with all the muslim nations formed naturally, and you're ok with all the other nations formed by carving up territories or other lands, but you want to OBSESS, CONSTANTLY, on the one little tiny jewish nation.
Israel isn't leaving, and you stupid cowards who don't have the guts to admit that you basically just want israeli jews to do and instead have to hide and pretend you're good people need to get it into your heads.
About 200,000 people have been murdered in Africa in the last two years. Go stand in front of african militas and put a little fucking red flag on your hat.
Also, this message board and cali protests have also taught me that a great number of "peace activists" seem to have a totally fucked up definition of "zionism" that doesn't jive whatsoever with the actual practical and realistic definition. It's getting hard to respond to people who take words, twist them into some absurd meaning, and then demand responses to their absurdity.
Considering that Israel's population is around 5 million (1 million of whom are oppressed Christians and Muslims who can have their homes confiscated with impunity) and that it receives by far the lion's share of all US foreign aid, I think it's quite appropriate to single out Israel, precisely because it is singled out for special treatment by the mainstream media and US government. We pay for Israel's Occupation of Palestinian lands with this "special relationship."
Our tax money should not be used to further Israel's expansionist goals to the detriment of its neighbors. And Israel's reputation, which is untarnished in the mainstream media should be exposed for what it is.
And just because other horrible things in the world happen, doesn't mean that justifies what Israel does just like Saddam killing Iraqis doesn't justify the US government doing the same.
When the Indonesian dictator was killing leftists in Indonesia and East Timorese, peace activists opposed US aid to Suharto and were largely successful in blocking it because there was no opposition to it -- certainly no one constantly crying about "anti-Indonesian" hatred from peace activists. Or when people opposed the white racists in South Africa, no one charged them with anti-white hatred. This seems to be the only conflict in which the oppressors can actually go on the offensive and charge their victims and those who support justice with hatred. That's all fine, they certainly have the right to do that. But that they are taken seriously by some (especially elites in the media and government) is just mind boggling.
Our tax money should not be used to further Israel's expansionist goals to the detriment of its neighbors. And Israel's reputation, which is untarnished in the mainstream media should be exposed for what it is.
And just because other horrible things in the world happen, doesn't mean that justifies what Israel does just like Saddam killing Iraqis doesn't justify the US government doing the same.
When the Indonesian dictator was killing leftists in Indonesia and East Timorese, peace activists opposed US aid to Suharto and were largely successful in blocking it because there was no opposition to it -- certainly no one constantly crying about "anti-Indonesian" hatred from peace activists. Or when people opposed the white racists in South Africa, no one charged them with anti-white hatred. This seems to be the only conflict in which the oppressors can actually go on the offensive and charge their victims and those who support justice with hatred. That's all fine, they certainly have the right to do that. But that they are taken seriously by some (especially elites in the media and government) is just mind boggling.
That's ahistorical nonsense. Typhoid, dysentery and cholera were all well established as biowar agents by then. Only a few years before, extensive research into their use had been conducted at Porton Down, Ft. Detrick, and Harbin.
Interesting. Ft. Detrick, of course, is the source of the Anthrax agents that were mailed out which were blamed on Arabs because of the letters which accompanied them.
See the following thread for info:
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/04/1602884.php
See the following thread for info:
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/04/1602884.php
Heck, we've been using smallpox-laden blankets since the 1800s! Throwing dead animals in wells is a time-honored tradition among feuding folks.
But that doesn't change the fact that there is absolutely no proof for the allegations here.
But that doesn't change the fact that there is absolutely no proof for the allegations here.
The following cable was sent from the commander of the Egyptian Forces in Palestine to General Headquarters in Cairo:
"15.20 hrs, 24 May [1948] Our Intelligence forces captured two Jews, David Horeen and David Mizrahi, loitering around army positions. They were interrogated and confessed they had been sent by Officer Moshe to poison the army [and the peoples'] water supply. They carried with them water bottles divided in the middle. The top part has potable water and the bottom part has a liquid contaminated with typhoid and dysentery, equipped with a rear opening from which the liquid can be released. They confessed they were members of a 20-strong team sent from Rehovot for the same purpose. Both have written their confession in Hebrew and signed it. We have taken the necessary medical precautions."
...
The criminals were executed three months later. On 22 July 1948, the [Palestinian] Higher Arab Committee (AHC) submitted a 13-page report to the United Nations accusing the Jews of using "inhuman" weapons and waging a genocide war against the Arabs through the use of bacteria and germs, developed in specially-built laboratories. The report also accuses the Jews (the word Israel was not used) of spreading cholera in Egypt and Syria in 1947/48. The story was picked up by the award-winning journalist, Thomas J Hamilton of the New York Times and published on 24 July 1948. The story now has a new twist- adding Egypt and Syria to the Jewish field of operations.
CHASING THE CULPRITS: Sara Leibovitz-Dar is a persistent investigative journalist. The trauma experienced by her parents in their native Lithuania left an indelible mark on her. She abhorred injustice and, particularly, the meek acceptance of it. She investigated the Gaza and Acre poisoning and shooting down of the civilian Libyan aircraft. The Israeli military historian, Uri Milstein, identified for her the names of the officers responsible for biological crimes.
In 1993, Sara tried to interview the commander who was responsible for Acre poisoning. He refused to talk. "Why do you look for troubles that took place 45 years ago?" he asked. "I know nothing about this. What would you gain by publishing?"
Again, Sara interviewed the officer responsible for Gaza poisoning. He refused to respond, "You will not get answers on these questions. Not from me and not from anyone." Sara was persistent. She asked Colonel Shlomo Gur, former HEMED chief, whether he was aware of the secret operations in 1948. "We heard about the typhoid epidemics in Acre and about the Gaza operations. There were many rumours but I did not know whether they were true or not," he responded.
Sara published her findings in Hadashot under the title "Microbes in State Service", on 13 August, 1993, pp6-10. Sara, who now moved to Ha'aretz, concluded with the following comment,
"What was done then with deep conviction and zealotry is now concealed with shame." True to the Israeli tradition, Sara declined twice to respond by e-mail to an enquiry from the writer.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1750.htm
"15.20 hrs, 24 May [1948] Our Intelligence forces captured two Jews, David Horeen and David Mizrahi, loitering around army positions. They were interrogated and confessed they had been sent by Officer Moshe to poison the army [and the peoples'] water supply. They carried with them water bottles divided in the middle. The top part has potable water and the bottom part has a liquid contaminated with typhoid and dysentery, equipped with a rear opening from which the liquid can be released. They confessed they were members of a 20-strong team sent from Rehovot for the same purpose. Both have written their confession in Hebrew and signed it. We have taken the necessary medical precautions."
...
The criminals were executed three months later. On 22 July 1948, the [Palestinian] Higher Arab Committee (AHC) submitted a 13-page report to the United Nations accusing the Jews of using "inhuman" weapons and waging a genocide war against the Arabs through the use of bacteria and germs, developed in specially-built laboratories. The report also accuses the Jews (the word Israel was not used) of spreading cholera in Egypt and Syria in 1947/48. The story was picked up by the award-winning journalist, Thomas J Hamilton of the New York Times and published on 24 July 1948. The story now has a new twist- adding Egypt and Syria to the Jewish field of operations.
CHASING THE CULPRITS: Sara Leibovitz-Dar is a persistent investigative journalist. The trauma experienced by her parents in their native Lithuania left an indelible mark on her. She abhorred injustice and, particularly, the meek acceptance of it. She investigated the Gaza and Acre poisoning and shooting down of the civilian Libyan aircraft. The Israeli military historian, Uri Milstein, identified for her the names of the officers responsible for biological crimes.
In 1993, Sara tried to interview the commander who was responsible for Acre poisoning. He refused to talk. "Why do you look for troubles that took place 45 years ago?" he asked. "I know nothing about this. What would you gain by publishing?"
Again, Sara interviewed the officer responsible for Gaza poisoning. He refused to respond, "You will not get answers on these questions. Not from me and not from anyone." Sara was persistent. She asked Colonel Shlomo Gur, former HEMED chief, whether he was aware of the secret operations in 1948. "We heard about the typhoid epidemics in Acre and about the Gaza operations. There were many rumours but I did not know whether they were true or not," he responded.
Sara published her findings in Hadashot under the title "Microbes in State Service", on 13 August, 1993, pp6-10. Sara, who now moved to Ha'aretz, concluded with the following comment,
"What was done then with deep conviction and zealotry is now concealed with shame." True to the Israeli tradition, Sara declined twice to respond by e-mail to an enquiry from the writer.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1750.htm
Very impressive. Two Israelis "interrogated" by an enemy army into signing a confession. What could be more reliable than that?
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At least they were given a fair trial ;-)
"They carried with them water bottles divided in the middle. The top part has potable water and the bottom part has a liquid contaminated with typhoid and dysentery, equipped with a rear opening from which the liquid can be released."
Too bad the dog ate them.
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Noah Efron grew up in the United States a cosseted Jew. He was innocent of anti-Semitism; had never experienced a single insult or slur. He was denied nothing because of his religion. To him, anti-Semitism was "a grand abstraction, like communism."
Anti-Semitism in Israel
http://makeashorterlink.com/?V2CB135F5
Anti-Semitism in Israel
http://makeashorterlink.com/?V2CB135F5
quote:
============================
What could be more reliable than that?
============================
Photos / Footage - as broadcast on Israeli television?
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/07/1629498.php
What could be more reliable than that?
Gee, I looked at the link and there isn't a single reference there to any kind of disease or well poisoning there. One might almost think you were trying to change the subject because you know you haven't got a case.
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Yes 'looking' at the link doesn't produce a single reference to any kind of bacterial or chemical warfare...
...but it does seem to 'return us to the thread'... dunno... maybe there must be some ulterior or possibly some other form of 'hidden intent' or 'agenda' of the part of the poster...
...but it does seem to 'return us to the thread'... dunno... maybe there must be some ulterior or possibly some other form of 'hidden intent' or 'agenda' of the part of the poster...
The above video clip shows the IDF slacking off, after all, our boys in green only killed one civilian in that incident. A bit disappointing when compared to what we did in Qana, but the IDF is lke the Energizer bunny: keeps on going and going and going. The scenes of harassment of the Palestinian civilians make up for the low death ratio, and restore the loyal army's reputation.
Every Zionist who sees this video clip should be proud, because these fun loving boys in green symbolize everything that our ideology stands for: arrogance, murder, and cruelty.
They are the ones who truly represent us.
- A concerned Zionist
Every Zionist who sees this video clip should be proud, because these fun loving boys in green symbolize everything that our ideology stands for: arrogance, murder, and cruelty.
They are the ones who truly represent us.
- A concerned Zionist
Despair: Israel's Ultimate Weapon
Jeff Halper (First published by the Center for Policy Analysis on Palestine)
"A comprehensive agreement is undoubtedly out of the question now. For only after total despair on the part of the Arabs, despair that will come not only from the failure of the disturbances and the attempt at rebellion, but also as a consequence of our growth in the country, may the Arabs possibly acquiesce to a Jewish Eretz Israel."
- David Ben-Gurion, 1936
Overview:
This is the calm before the storm. By the time you read this, all hell might have broken loose. If not today, it is only because Israel's Prime Minister Ariel Sharon does not want to provoke a strong reaction from the Arab Summit meeting in Amman, Jordan. If not by Friday, it is only because Sharon does not want to add oil to the flames of Palestinian Land Day. But the shoe has fallen, the orders have been given. We all wait. Israel's final push to "break" the Palestinians is about to commence. This is what Sharon was elected for; this is what he has been waiting for these past 53 and more years.
The Need for Bush's Blessing:
One obstacle stood in the way of Israel's National Unity Government, which includes Nobel laureate Shimon Peres as foreign minister, and Nathan Sharansky, the Soviet-Jewish human rights hero, as deputy prime minister. It needed the blessing of President George Bush. Sharon was the first Middle East leader to visit the White House after the U.S. election (his first order of business was to urge Bush not to invite Palestinian Authority (PA) President Yasser Arafat). Sharon set out his agenda before the new government: bringing "security" to Israel's citizens; ending Palestinian "terrorism"; and, because he believes peace is impossible, perhaps negotiating an "interim" agreement with the Palestinians.
All this is code for two underlying policies. First, breaking Palestinian resistance once and for all; forcing the Palestinians to accept a mini-state on half of the West Bank and Gaza. The mini-state is necessary to relieve Israel of having to grant citizenship to some three million inhabitants of the Occupied Territories, but it will be far from viable or truly sovereign. It will have no territorial contiguity, being squeezed between Israeli settlements, bypass roads, and military checkpoints and facilities. It will have no borders, being completely encircled by Israel, and no control of border crossings. It will be unable to develop a viable economy, its people remaining casual laborers forever dependent upon the Israeli economy. Its sovereignty will be limited at best. Second, reverting to the familiar tactics of delaying negotiations so as to create additional "facts on the ground," thus prejudicing the very negotiating process itself. The bottom
line is that the Palestinians better accept this "reality"-or else; occupation by consent, or absolute suppression.
What Sharon needed from Bush, then, was permission to ruthlessly suppress any Palestinian resistance to the military occupation. This he received, with one proviso: Do not do anything that "embarrasses" the United States. Do not expect, then, U.S.-made Apache helicopters to attack Hebron, as they did Beit Jala and Gaza. Less visible means will be employed: a more extensive campaign of assassinations of Palestinian leaders and grassroots activists; surgical "operations" to "punish" the people and to "clear" agricultural land and urban neighborhoods (watch what happens in the Palestinian neighborhood of Abu Sneineh in Hebron over the next couple days, where shots were apparently fired that killed an Israeli infant); reverting to bureaucratic methods, such as house demolition orders and land expropriation measures; massive settlement expansion and road-building; "painful" sanctions on the PA, and more.
Israeli State Terrorism:
All this will be cast, of course, as justified "responses" to terrorism. After all, Sharon was elected to bring personal security back to the Israeli public. But this cynically conceals the major goal of the Sharon-Peres government: creating such despair among the Palestinians that they will finally submit to Israeli dictates. Signs of this proactive policy-and not mere reactions following Palestinian actions-are already evident. Just this week, the Jerusalem Municipality issued dozens of demolition orders, and the Israeli Civil Administration is doing the same for the West Bank and Gaza. Settlements are being expanded-also this week, the government announced its intent to build a new city in the Etzion Bloc (Giva'ot) with 6,000 housing units in the first stage. Hundreds of acres of farm and horticultural land are being cleared for a massive "bypass road" near Turkumiyya, close to Hebron. And much more. All that was needed was the spark-the attacks on Israeli civilians this week-to jump-start the Campaign of Despair. Israel is again the victim with no responsibility, able to blame the Palestinians for the "violence." Meanwhile, the United States is let off the hook.
State terrorism on a scale we have not seen before,coupled with creating massive "facts" on the ground and perhaps causing the collapse of the PA, will now be employed to break Palestinian resistance once and for all. What unites Sharon and Peres is the belief that Israel can win. The United States-and Congress in particular, Israel's trumpcard-is unwavering in its total support. Europe, more critical, has no independent policy apart from the U.S. The UN is neutralized by the U.S as an effective force. The Arab countries will give the Palestinians only lip-service. Nothing will prevent Israel from either creating facts or brow-beating the Palestinians. Indeed, the only countervailing force at this time seems to be the Palestinian street. Here, assassinations and punishment (besiegement until hunger, preventing people from working, house demolitions, land expropriation, mass arrests, constant harassment, and the extensive use of undercover police to undermine social solidarity) are intended to do their part.
'Master Plan' of Annexation:
Sharon hopes to finally fulfill his mentor's dream of utterly defeating the Palestinians and taking possession of the entire Land of Israel. In a famous article entitled "The Iron Wall," published in 1923, Ze'ev Jabotinsky, the founder of Revisionist Zionism who described his attitude towards the Arabs as one of "polite indifference," set forth the platform of the present National Unity Government. "Every indigenous people," he wrote, "will resist alien settlers as long as they see any hope of ridding themselves of the danger of foreign settlement. This is how the Arabs will behave and go on behaving so long as they possess a gleam of hope that they can prevent 'Palestine' from becoming the Land of Israel." The sole way to an agreement, then, is through the iron wall, that is to say, the establishment in Palestine of a force that will in no way be influenced by Arab pressure. . . . A voluntary agreement is unattainable. . . We must either suspend our settlement efforts or continue them without paying attention to the mood of the natives. Settlement can thus develop under the protection of a force that is not dependent on the local population, behind an iron wall which they will be powerless to break down.
After 34 years of occupation, including 24 years following Sharon's 1977 "Master Plan" for annexing the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and Gaza, the iron wall is nearing completion. The "facts" have been created, the Master Plan almost concluded. All that remains is to extinguish that "gleam of hope" among the Palestinians that they might eke out a small but viable, independent state in 22 percent of the land of historic Palestine. The conquest and consolidation have been accomplished; only the despair remains that will allow Israel to control the Greater Land of Israel while getting rid of Palestinians through forcing a bantustan upon them. Has the world seen the last of apartheid? The next few weeks and months will tell. And it will all be happening in front of us, if we can discern the repression through the public relations of "defense" and "security."
Jeff Halper is Coordinator of the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions and Editor of News From Within. The above text may be used without permission but with proper attribution to the author and to the Center for Policy Analysis on Palestine. This Information Brief does not necessarily reflect the views of CPAP or The Jerusalem Fund.
Jeff Halper (First published by the Center for Policy Analysis on Palestine)
"A comprehensive agreement is undoubtedly out of the question now. For only after total despair on the part of the Arabs, despair that will come not only from the failure of the disturbances and the attempt at rebellion, but also as a consequence of our growth in the country, may the Arabs possibly acquiesce to a Jewish Eretz Israel."
- David Ben-Gurion, 1936
Overview:
This is the calm before the storm. By the time you read this, all hell might have broken loose. If not today, it is only because Israel's Prime Minister Ariel Sharon does not want to provoke a strong reaction from the Arab Summit meeting in Amman, Jordan. If not by Friday, it is only because Sharon does not want to add oil to the flames of Palestinian Land Day. But the shoe has fallen, the orders have been given. We all wait. Israel's final push to "break" the Palestinians is about to commence. This is what Sharon was elected for; this is what he has been waiting for these past 53 and more years.
The Need for Bush's Blessing:
One obstacle stood in the way of Israel's National Unity Government, which includes Nobel laureate Shimon Peres as foreign minister, and Nathan Sharansky, the Soviet-Jewish human rights hero, as deputy prime minister. It needed the blessing of President George Bush. Sharon was the first Middle East leader to visit the White House after the U.S. election (his first order of business was to urge Bush not to invite Palestinian Authority (PA) President Yasser Arafat). Sharon set out his agenda before the new government: bringing "security" to Israel's citizens; ending Palestinian "terrorism"; and, because he believes peace is impossible, perhaps negotiating an "interim" agreement with the Palestinians.
All this is code for two underlying policies. First, breaking Palestinian resistance once and for all; forcing the Palestinians to accept a mini-state on half of the West Bank and Gaza. The mini-state is necessary to relieve Israel of having to grant citizenship to some three million inhabitants of the Occupied Territories, but it will be far from viable or truly sovereign. It will have no territorial contiguity, being squeezed between Israeli settlements, bypass roads, and military checkpoints and facilities. It will have no borders, being completely encircled by Israel, and no control of border crossings. It will be unable to develop a viable economy, its people remaining casual laborers forever dependent upon the Israeli economy. Its sovereignty will be limited at best. Second, reverting to the familiar tactics of delaying negotiations so as to create additional "facts on the ground," thus prejudicing the very negotiating process itself. The bottom
line is that the Palestinians better accept this "reality"-or else; occupation by consent, or absolute suppression.
What Sharon needed from Bush, then, was permission to ruthlessly suppress any Palestinian resistance to the military occupation. This he received, with one proviso: Do not do anything that "embarrasses" the United States. Do not expect, then, U.S.-made Apache helicopters to attack Hebron, as they did Beit Jala and Gaza. Less visible means will be employed: a more extensive campaign of assassinations of Palestinian leaders and grassroots activists; surgical "operations" to "punish" the people and to "clear" agricultural land and urban neighborhoods (watch what happens in the Palestinian neighborhood of Abu Sneineh in Hebron over the next couple days, where shots were apparently fired that killed an Israeli infant); reverting to bureaucratic methods, such as house demolition orders and land expropriation measures; massive settlement expansion and road-building; "painful" sanctions on the PA, and more.
Israeli State Terrorism:
All this will be cast, of course, as justified "responses" to terrorism. After all, Sharon was elected to bring personal security back to the Israeli public. But this cynically conceals the major goal of the Sharon-Peres government: creating such despair among the Palestinians that they will finally submit to Israeli dictates. Signs of this proactive policy-and not mere reactions following Palestinian actions-are already evident. Just this week, the Jerusalem Municipality issued dozens of demolition orders, and the Israeli Civil Administration is doing the same for the West Bank and Gaza. Settlements are being expanded-also this week, the government announced its intent to build a new city in the Etzion Bloc (Giva'ot) with 6,000 housing units in the first stage. Hundreds of acres of farm and horticultural land are being cleared for a massive "bypass road" near Turkumiyya, close to Hebron. And much more. All that was needed was the spark-the attacks on Israeli civilians this week-to jump-start the Campaign of Despair. Israel is again the victim with no responsibility, able to blame the Palestinians for the "violence." Meanwhile, the United States is let off the hook.
State terrorism on a scale we have not seen before,coupled with creating massive "facts" on the ground and perhaps causing the collapse of the PA, will now be employed to break Palestinian resistance once and for all. What unites Sharon and Peres is the belief that Israel can win. The United States-and Congress in particular, Israel's trumpcard-is unwavering in its total support. Europe, more critical, has no independent policy apart from the U.S. The UN is neutralized by the U.S as an effective force. The Arab countries will give the Palestinians only lip-service. Nothing will prevent Israel from either creating facts or brow-beating the Palestinians. Indeed, the only countervailing force at this time seems to be the Palestinian street. Here, assassinations and punishment (besiegement until hunger, preventing people from working, house demolitions, land expropriation, mass arrests, constant harassment, and the extensive use of undercover police to undermine social solidarity) are intended to do their part.
'Master Plan' of Annexation:
Sharon hopes to finally fulfill his mentor's dream of utterly defeating the Palestinians and taking possession of the entire Land of Israel. In a famous article entitled "The Iron Wall," published in 1923, Ze'ev Jabotinsky, the founder of Revisionist Zionism who described his attitude towards the Arabs as one of "polite indifference," set forth the platform of the present National Unity Government. "Every indigenous people," he wrote, "will resist alien settlers as long as they see any hope of ridding themselves of the danger of foreign settlement. This is how the Arabs will behave and go on behaving so long as they possess a gleam of hope that they can prevent 'Palestine' from becoming the Land of Israel." The sole way to an agreement, then, is through the iron wall, that is to say, the establishment in Palestine of a force that will in no way be influenced by Arab pressure. . . . A voluntary agreement is unattainable. . . We must either suspend our settlement efforts or continue them without paying attention to the mood of the natives. Settlement can thus develop under the protection of a force that is not dependent on the local population, behind an iron wall which they will be powerless to break down.
After 34 years of occupation, including 24 years following Sharon's 1977 "Master Plan" for annexing the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and Gaza, the iron wall is nearing completion. The "facts" have been created, the Master Plan almost concluded. All that remains is to extinguish that "gleam of hope" among the Palestinians that they might eke out a small but viable, independent state in 22 percent of the land of historic Palestine. The conquest and consolidation have been accomplished; only the despair remains that will allow Israel to control the Greater Land of Israel while getting rid of Palestinians through forcing a bantustan upon them. Has the world seen the last of apartheid? The next few weeks and months will tell. And it will all be happening in front of us, if we can discern the repression through the public relations of "defense" and "security."
Jeff Halper is Coordinator of the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions and Editor of News From Within. The above text may be used without permission but with proper attribution to the author and to the Center for Policy Analysis on Palestine. This Information Brief does not necessarily reflect the views of CPAP or The Jerusalem Fund.
gehrig said - quote:
============================
What could be more reliable than that?
============================
I answered - quote:
============================
Photos / Footage - as broadcast on Israeli television?
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/07/1629498.php
What could be more reliable than that?
============================
gehrig replied - quote:
======================================
Gee, I looked at the link and there isn't a single reference there to any kind of disease or well poisoning there.
======================================
and an astute punctuater observed:
======================================
Yes 'looking' at the link doesn't produce a single reference to any kind of bacterial or chemical warfare...
...but it does seem to 'RETURN US TO THE THREAD' [my emph]... dunno... maybe there must be some ulterior or possibly some other form of 'hidden intent' or 'agenda' of the part of the poster...
======================================
Prominent Israeli History Professor, Ilan Pappe Praises Jenin Book (162 comments)
Zionism Is The Root Problem (166 comments)
israels secret weapon (142 comments)
Israeli soldiers exonerated in death of Olympia activist (258 comments)
Purifying the Land
( What could be more reliable than that?)
(1 comment)
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/07/1629498.php
============================
What could be more reliable than that?
============================
I answered - quote:
============================
Photos / Footage - as broadcast on Israeli television?
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/07/1629498.php
What could be more reliable than that?
============================
gehrig replied - quote:
======================================
Gee, I looked at the link and there isn't a single reference there to any kind of disease or well poisoning there.
======================================
and an astute punctuater observed:
======================================
Yes 'looking' at the link doesn't produce a single reference to any kind of bacterial or chemical warfare...
...but it does seem to 'RETURN US TO THE THREAD' [my emph]... dunno... maybe there must be some ulterior or possibly some other form of 'hidden intent' or 'agenda' of the part of the poster...
======================================
Prominent Israeli History Professor, Ilan Pappe Praises Jenin Book (162 comments)
Zionism Is The Root Problem (166 comments)
israels secret weapon (142 comments)
Israeli soldiers exonerated in death of Olympia activist (258 comments)
Purifying the Land
( What could be more reliable than that?)
(1 comment)
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/07/1629498.php
Note that not once have you quoted my complete statement, let alone my complete statement in context.
The topic under consideration was the way that medieval antisemitic stereotypes are being given a new coat of paint -- scratch out the word "Jew" and write in the word "Zionist" -- and that some of you are too clotted with hatred of anything remotely connected with Zionism to notice how you're being exploited. As I said in an earlier post: "Middle ages: baseless allegations that the Jews poison wells. Indybay today: baseless allegations that "the Zionists" *wink wink* poison wells. "
Some anonymouse replied, "But the Zionists _do_ poison wells," and came up with a really laughable excuse for evidence. To which I replied: "Very impressive. Two Israelis 'interrogated' by an enemy army into signing a confession. What could be more reliable than that?"
Various anony-mice (or the same one under several nyms) have tried to deflect attention away from that point, by hacking my statement in half and leaving out the context.
Do _you_ find that "evidence" persuasive, anonym, or are you going to continue to pretend I'm talking about something completely different?
And, while we're at it, do you find it at all strange that, on this board, there are no allegations that the Dutch or the French or the Germans or the English poison wells, but by an odd coincidence, it just happens to be the Zionists alone to which this tried-and-true-since-the-1300s-against-the-Jews slander happens to (anonymously, of course) surface?
@%<
The topic under consideration was the way that medieval antisemitic stereotypes are being given a new coat of paint -- scratch out the word "Jew" and write in the word "Zionist" -- and that some of you are too clotted with hatred of anything remotely connected with Zionism to notice how you're being exploited. As I said in an earlier post: "Middle ages: baseless allegations that the Jews poison wells. Indybay today: baseless allegations that "the Zionists" *wink wink* poison wells. "
Some anonymouse replied, "But the Zionists _do_ poison wells," and came up with a really laughable excuse for evidence. To which I replied: "Very impressive. Two Israelis 'interrogated' by an enemy army into signing a confession. What could be more reliable than that?"
Various anony-mice (or the same one under several nyms) have tried to deflect attention away from that point, by hacking my statement in half and leaving out the context.
Do _you_ find that "evidence" persuasive, anonym, or are you going to continue to pretend I'm talking about something completely different?
And, while we're at it, do you find it at all strange that, on this board, there are no allegations that the Dutch or the French or the Germans or the English poison wells, but by an odd coincidence, it just happens to be the Zionists alone to which this tried-and-true-since-the-1300s-against-the-Jews slander happens to (anonymously, of course) surface?
@%<
Gehrig's is dishonest.
There was no allegation made on here of Jews poisoning wells in the 1300's.
The allegation was made and backed up with evidence from Red Cross files (including Zionist operatives captured with containers that contained typhoid) that show that Arab water supplies were poisoned.
The charge of anti-Semitism is despicable given that the real victims in this case were the Arabs who suffered and died and then attacked by the Israeli army.
This charge tries to make the victimizers out to be the victims and once again waters down the real meaning of the term.
There are also modern parallels. For example, in the first intifida, Israeli soldiers fired tear gas into maternity wards, in one case killing around 16 babies. In the second intifada, they used some sort of nerve gas which left a couple hundred Palestinians reeling in agony for days (some as long as a month). And this would never have been believed except that a filmographer by the name of James B. Longley witness it and filmed it in his documentary "Gaza Strip."
Here is the original article from which excerpts were posted above. Read it for yourself and make up your mind if it is "anti-Semitic" as gehrig the troll claims:
There was no allegation made on here of Jews poisoning wells in the 1300's.
The allegation was made and backed up with evidence from Red Cross files (including Zionist operatives captured with containers that contained typhoid) that show that Arab water supplies were poisoned.
The charge of anti-Semitism is despicable given that the real victims in this case were the Arabs who suffered and died and then attacked by the Israeli army.
This charge tries to make the victimizers out to be the victims and once again waters down the real meaning of the term.
There are also modern parallels. For example, in the first intifida, Israeli soldiers fired tear gas into maternity wards, in one case killing around 16 babies. In the second intifada, they used some sort of nerve gas which left a couple hundred Palestinians reeling in agony for days (some as long as a month). And this would never have been believed except that a filmographer by the name of James B. Longley witness it and filmed it in his documentary "Gaza Strip."
Here is the original article from which excerpts were posted above. Read it for yourself and make up your mind if it is "anti-Semitic" as gehrig the troll claims:
For more information:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/a...
* rolling eyes even _more *
"There was no allegation made on here of Jews poisoning wells in the 1300's. "
Golly. Think of how much more smoothly this would go if only you would learn to read. Or did you misread me on purpose?
"The allegation was made and backed up with evidence from Red Cross files (including Zionist operatives captured with containers that contained typhoid) that show that Arab water supplies were poisoned."
Do you find any reference in the Red Cross materials to any captured poisons? Or do you find instead references in Red Cross documents to diseases, wrapped in a duplicitous narrative from _someone else_ CLAIMING that the Red Cross documents refer to captured evidence?
Do you see any reference in the Ben-Gurion diary extract of any evidence other than a cable from Gaza claiming that the Egyptians in Gaza were _claiming_ to have captured Israelis carrying malaria -- or is that all the duplicitous narrative that someone wrapped around it by suggesting that Ben-Gurion is lying in his own diary?
Don't take my word for it. Take another look.
And while you're on the "Information Clearinghouse" site, search on the word "Khazar," and then ask yourself whether the "Edgar J. Steele" who wrote that article is the same one who wrote the following words:
"Jews are the problem.
Jews have been the problem since before they saw to the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, in fact.
Now they are bent upon World War III, just as they fomented last century's wars.
Books, indeed, libraries, have been written on this topic. I scarcely know where to begin.
If you don't see jews as being at least part of the problem, then you are seriously misinformed and wandering in extreme self delusion. I won't even try to deal with you in this essay below this level. Go do your elementary research, then come back, because we don't even speak the same language as yet."
@%<
"There was no allegation made on here of Jews poisoning wells in the 1300's. "
Golly. Think of how much more smoothly this would go if only you would learn to read. Or did you misread me on purpose?
"The allegation was made and backed up with evidence from Red Cross files (including Zionist operatives captured with containers that contained typhoid) that show that Arab water supplies were poisoned."
Do you find any reference in the Red Cross materials to any captured poisons? Or do you find instead references in Red Cross documents to diseases, wrapped in a duplicitous narrative from _someone else_ CLAIMING that the Red Cross documents refer to captured evidence?
Do you see any reference in the Ben-Gurion diary extract of any evidence other than a cable from Gaza claiming that the Egyptians in Gaza were _claiming_ to have captured Israelis carrying malaria -- or is that all the duplicitous narrative that someone wrapped around it by suggesting that Ben-Gurion is lying in his own diary?
Don't take my word for it. Take another look.
And while you're on the "Information Clearinghouse" site, search on the word "Khazar," and then ask yourself whether the "Edgar J. Steele" who wrote that article is the same one who wrote the following words:
"Jews are the problem.
Jews have been the problem since before they saw to the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, in fact.
Now they are bent upon World War III, just as they fomented last century's wars.
Books, indeed, libraries, have been written on this topic. I scarcely know where to begin.
If you don't see jews as being at least part of the problem, then you are seriously misinformed and wandering in extreme self delusion. I won't even try to deal with you in this essay below this level. Go do your elementary research, then come back, because we don't even speak the same language as yet."
@%<
"Gehrig's is dishonest.
There was no allegation made on here of Jews poisoning wells in the 1300's. "
I think you need to work on your reading comprehension skills.
Then you can start working on the plausibility of evidence stuff. Here's a clue: Imagine if U.S. military had made the same accusation against someone with the same evidence -- would you take their word for it?
There was no allegation made on here of Jews poisoning wells in the 1300's. "
I think you need to work on your reading comprehension skills.
Then you can start working on the plausibility of evidence stuff. Here's a clue: Imagine if U.S. military had made the same accusation against someone with the same evidence -- would you take their word for it?
Actually gehrig (and in his multiple 'guises') is a serial violator of the "Poisoning the Well" tactic. see: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/poisoning-the-well.html
Anony-mouse: "Actually gehrig (and in his multiple 'guises')..."
Ah, I was wondering when someone would try to drag that accusation out again. Notice how the authorativeness of Anonymouse's declaration is exceeded only by his utter lack of corroborative evidence.
And there's a very simple reason _why_ he has no corroborative evidence for his little theory: because his little theory is wrong.
I'll say it again: I do not use nyms. I do not use sock puppets. I don't need them. I leave those for the spineless and the duplicitous. I have never made a post to this or any other IMC that I have not signed "gehrig."
@%<
Ah, I was wondering when someone would try to drag that accusation out again. Notice how the authorativeness of Anonymouse's declaration is exceeded only by his utter lack of corroborative evidence.
And there's a very simple reason _why_ he has no corroborative evidence for his little theory: because his little theory is wrong.
I'll say it again: I do not use nyms. I do not use sock puppets. I don't need them. I leave those for the spineless and the duplicitous. I have never made a post to this or any other IMC that I have not signed "gehrig."
@%<
--"Imagine if U.S. military had made the same accusation against someone with the same evidence -- would you take their word for it?"
I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand. And I certainly wouldn't call it hate.
I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand. And I certainly wouldn't call it hate.
as Palestinians openly engage in terrorism it has proven its self an out law state and not capable of self rule. above and beyond that fact, Palestine is not a real country. is occupies Israeli land. which nullifies their claim to being at war. this makes the p.l.o. and Palestinians collaborators international criminals.
j.a.
j.a.
... then add one more piece to the analogy: assume that there's a near-thousand-year old slander against Americans saying that they poison wells, and that the current accusation is couched in a way that seems distinctly like an attempt to retread the old slander in a new guise -- and without convincing evidence.
_That's_ the point -- the amazing coincidence that the unsupported allegation against Israel is also a retread of an antisemitic medieval slander in only the barest of disguises. Maybe it's coincidence. But it's an awfully frequent coincidence.
@%<
_That's_ the point -- the amazing coincidence that the unsupported allegation against Israel is also a retread of an antisemitic medieval slander in only the barest of disguises. Maybe it's coincidence. But it's an awfully frequent coincidence.
@%<
Gehrig wrote: "And while you're on the "Information Clearinghouse" site, search on the word "Khazar," and then ask yourself whether the "Edgar J. Steele" who wrote that article..."
The author of that article was not an "Edgar J. Steele" as gehrig claims but Salman Abu-Sitta president of the Palestine Land Society in London.
Also, the Red Cross did confirm that the source of the disease was water borne.
"The minutes [from the Red Cross files] stated that there are at least 70 known civilian casualties, others may not be reported. It was determined that the infection is "water borne", not due to crowded or unhygienic conditions as claimed by the Israelis. It was decided that a substitute water supply should now come from artesian wells or from the agricultural station, just north of Acre (see map), not from the aqueduct."
Acre was being attacked by Zionists at the time, and we are to believe that just coincidentally the town came down with an epidemic of typhoid -- something which had never happened there before as the Red Cross confirmed (Brigadier Beveridge told de Meuron that this is "the first time this happened in Palestine"). A couple weeks later, Egyptian troops captured a couple Zionists with bottles containing typhoid.
The author of that article was not an "Edgar J. Steele" as gehrig claims but Salman Abu-Sitta president of the Palestine Land Society in London.
Also, the Red Cross did confirm that the source of the disease was water borne.
"The minutes [from the Red Cross files] stated that there are at least 70 known civilian casualties, others may not be reported. It was determined that the infection is "water borne", not due to crowded or unhygienic conditions as claimed by the Israelis. It was decided that a substitute water supply should now come from artesian wells or from the agricultural station, just north of Acre (see map), not from the aqueduct."
Acre was being attacked by Zionists at the time, and we are to believe that just coincidentally the town came down with an epidemic of typhoid -- something which had never happened there before as the Red Cross confirmed (Brigadier Beveridge told de Meuron that this is "the first time this happened in Palestine"). A couple weeks later, Egyptian troops captured a couple Zionists with bottles containing typhoid.
Israelis openly engage in terrorism.
Me: "And while you're on the "Information Clearinghouse" site, search on the word "Khazar," and then ask yourself whether the "Edgar J. Steele" who wrote that article..."
Someone screwing up again: "The author of that article was not an "Edgar J. Steele" as gehrig claims but Salman Abu-Sitta president of the Palestine Land Society in London."
All right, let me try shorter sentences. Your comprehension has failed you again.
Go to the site. Search for the word "Khazar." Go to the article you pull up on that site. Look at the author of that article. You will see the name "Edgar J. Steele." Who is Steele? The fellow who wrote the passage I quoted.
I hope you were able to follow this. I tried to keep it to words under three syllables (except "article") (and "syllables").
And no matter how you twist, you still aren't getting any closer to your claim, which is -- if I remember right -- that the ICRC said that Zionists deliberately infected a well. The closest you get to actual evidence is -- again -- those Egyptian soldiers and the Israelis they "interrogated" into signing a confession. How embarrassing; you're flapping like mad but can't get the charge to take flight.
@%<
Someone screwing up again: "The author of that article was not an "Edgar J. Steele" as gehrig claims but Salman Abu-Sitta president of the Palestine Land Society in London."
All right, let me try shorter sentences. Your comprehension has failed you again.
Go to the site. Search for the word "Khazar." Go to the article you pull up on that site. Look at the author of that article. You will see the name "Edgar J. Steele." Who is Steele? The fellow who wrote the passage I quoted.
I hope you were able to follow this. I tried to keep it to words under three syllables (except "article") (and "syllables").
And no matter how you twist, you still aren't getting any closer to your claim, which is -- if I remember right -- that the ICRC said that Zionists deliberately infected a well. The closest you get to actual evidence is -- again -- those Egyptian soldiers and the Israelis they "interrogated" into signing a confession. How embarrassing; you're flapping like mad but can't get the charge to take flight.
@%<
Gehrig just what are you trying to say?
Is this another attempt at "Poisoning the Well":
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/poisoning-the-well.html
Is it your view: that 'hate' speech that counters your position - effectively 'poisons' by association anything else presented by the site.
However 'hate' speech supporting your position is O.K. right?
Hey gehrig YOU ARE A RACIST BIGOT!
Is this another attempt at "Poisoning the Well":
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/poisoning-the-well.html
Is it your view: that 'hate' speech that counters your position - effectively 'poisons' by association anything else presented by the site.
However 'hate' speech supporting your position is O.K. right?
Hey gehrig YOU ARE A RACIST BIGOT!
"Is it your view: that 'hate' speech that counters your position - effectively 'poisons' by association anything else presented by the site."
It doesn't make everything else on the site _wrong_, but it does mean that it shouldn't necessarily be taken at face value, if the journalistic standards are low enough to allow one of Steele's rants. See how simple?
" Hey gehrig YOU ARE A RACIST BIGOT!"
That's right -- when all else fails, just shout "racist."
@%<
It doesn't make everything else on the site _wrong_, but it does mean that it shouldn't necessarily be taken at face value, if the journalistic standards are low enough to allow one of Steele's rants. See how simple?
" Hey gehrig YOU ARE A RACIST BIGOT!"
That's right -- when all else fails, just shout "racist."
@%<
Antizionists have no justification to use the accusations of racism and others when discussing our apartheid policies against Palestinians in the Middle East.
Anyone who doesn't support Israel we label a
a) terrorist
b) antisemite (there sure are a lot of Jewish antisemites out there!)
c) nazi
d) fascist (if we can actually spell the word properly)
e) traitor (if Israeli- and more and more of them are)
So all of you antizionists out there, stop using our smear tactics against us. We began using them so no copywriting from you!
Or we will get the bulldozers!
Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist
Anyone who doesn't support Israel we label a
a) terrorist
b) antisemite (there sure are a lot of Jewish antisemites out there!)
c) nazi
d) fascist (if we can actually spell the word properly)
e) traitor (if Israeli- and more and more of them are)
So all of you antizionists out there, stop using our smear tactics against us. We began using them so no copywriting from you!
Or we will get the bulldozers!
Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist
Regarding the evidence of Israel poisoning wells...
"They carried with them water bottles divided in the middle. The top part has potable water and the bottom part has a liquid contaminated with typhoid and dysentery, equipped with a rear opening from which the liquid can be released."
I was camping and saw people carrying devices that match this description exactly. They called it them "water purification systems." They did inded have both chambers full. The top chamber was potable, the bottom part was what they called "untreated" and had all the local diseases in it.
Now wouldn't I feel stupid if I had executed these people?
"They carried with them water bottles divided in the middle. The top part has potable water and the bottom part has a liquid contaminated with typhoid and dysentery, equipped with a rear opening from which the liquid can be released."
I was camping and saw people carrying devices that match this description exactly. They called it them "water purification systems." They did inded have both chambers full. The top chamber was potable, the bottom part was what they called "untreated" and had all the local diseases in it.
Now wouldn't I feel stupid if I had executed these people?
Denials along with the usual charge of anti-Semitism are designed to deflect attention away from Israel's worst crimes and make those responsible appear to be the victims.
As far as the article which talks about the poisoning of the aqueduct leading to Acre is concerned, it was originally published in the Egyptian newspaper Al Ahram (http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2003/627/focus.htm). Just because it was reprinted on informationclearinghouse.info does not discredit it. Also, that's not all it talks about. It also discusses the recent gassing of Palestinians in Gaza with an unknown gas.
This would never have been believed and simply dismissed as "anti-Semitic Arab propaganda" if it were not for the fact that an American filmographer had witnessed it and actually filmed the victims and witnesses (including a French physician on the scene). Israel used an unkown gas against civilians which left them reeling in agony for days (some as long as a month).
The gassing of Palestinians is corroborated by the below video and testimony from a French physician, Dr. Helen Bruzau, who treated the victims and an American filmographer (James B. Longley).
According to James B. Longley those affected reeled in excruciating, unending agony for days, some as long as a month.
French Physician on the scene describes the symptoms:
"The people we saw in the hospital, were mainly young people, exhibiting neurological manifestations: with hypertonic and choreoathetotic crisis in their limbs, spasms causing the body to stiffen, or worse: to go rigid in an arc position. This was followed by episodes of muscle relaxation: Nearly complete paralysis of the limbs, with hypertonia and also digestive pains like cramps and colics, and behavioral distresses; periods of extreme excitation, that kind of trouble."
-Dr. Helen Bruzau
Medecins Sans Frontieres
"As I made my way through the wards of Amal and Nasser Hospitals that day and for many days afterward, I observed many patients that had been brought to the hospitals suffering from these symptoms. Room after room, women, children, men. Some were vomiting. Some alternated between a coma-like state and violent convulsions, their entire bodies twisting and arching, members of their families struggling to hold them down on the beds. On and on, for days. One boy, who had inhaled a large amount of the gas in question, suffered in the hospital for an entire month with recurrent convulsions. It is difficult to describe the sensation of sitting in a room for hours and days with people suffering so terribly, and knowing that this was done by human beings."
"The incident went largely unreported. No articles were written in major US newspapers. Fox News and 60 Minutes did not produce special reports. The story gradually grew old and fell through the cracks. Out of sight and out of mind – and who would believe that the Israeli military would do such a thing to civilians in a refugee camp? Olivier Rafowicz, an Israeli Army spokesman, was furious that I even dared to ask him about the gas when I interviewed him in Tel Aviv on April 10, and he repeated the same angry denials. I did not tell him what I had witnessed and filmed. I make these transcripts available in order to set the record straight. I filmed many other interviews with patients, doctors, etc., but the accounts tend to vary only in the details."
-James B. Longley
212-898-0472
james@littleredbutton.com
This was of course totally ignored by our media. Now imagine the reaction if Arabs had done this to Israelis.
As far as the article which talks about the poisoning of the aqueduct leading to Acre is concerned, it was originally published in the Egyptian newspaper Al Ahram (http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2003/627/focus.htm). Just because it was reprinted on informationclearinghouse.info does not discredit it. Also, that's not all it talks about. It also discusses the recent gassing of Palestinians in Gaza with an unknown gas.
This would never have been believed and simply dismissed as "anti-Semitic Arab propaganda" if it were not for the fact that an American filmographer had witnessed it and actually filmed the victims and witnesses (including a French physician on the scene). Israel used an unkown gas against civilians which left them reeling in agony for days (some as long as a month).
The gassing of Palestinians is corroborated by the below video and testimony from a French physician, Dr. Helen Bruzau, who treated the victims and an American filmographer (James B. Longley).
According to James B. Longley those affected reeled in excruciating, unending agony for days, some as long as a month.
VIDEO:
Preview of Gaza Strip by James LongleyFrench Physician on the scene describes the symptoms:
"The people we saw in the hospital, were mainly young people, exhibiting neurological manifestations: with hypertonic and choreoathetotic crisis in their limbs, spasms causing the body to stiffen, or worse: to go rigid in an arc position. This was followed by episodes of muscle relaxation: Nearly complete paralysis of the limbs, with hypertonia and also digestive pains like cramps and colics, and behavioral distresses; periods of extreme excitation, that kind of trouble."
-Dr. Helen Bruzau
Medecins Sans Frontieres
"As I made my way through the wards of Amal and Nasser Hospitals that day and for many days afterward, I observed many patients that had been brought to the hospitals suffering from these symptoms. Room after room, women, children, men. Some were vomiting. Some alternated between a coma-like state and violent convulsions, their entire bodies twisting and arching, members of their families struggling to hold them down on the beds. On and on, for days. One boy, who had inhaled a large amount of the gas in question, suffered in the hospital for an entire month with recurrent convulsions. It is difficult to describe the sensation of sitting in a room for hours and days with people suffering so terribly, and knowing that this was done by human beings."
"The incident went largely unreported. No articles were written in major US newspapers. Fox News and 60 Minutes did not produce special reports. The story gradually grew old and fell through the cracks. Out of sight and out of mind – and who would believe that the Israeli military would do such a thing to civilians in a refugee camp? Olivier Rafowicz, an Israeli Army spokesman, was furious that I even dared to ask him about the gas when I interviewed him in Tel Aviv on April 10, and he repeated the same angry denials. I did not tell him what I had witnessed and filmed. I make these transcripts available in order to set the record straight. I filmed many other interviews with patients, doctors, etc., but the accounts tend to vary only in the details."
-James B. Longley
212-898-0472
james@littleredbutton.com
This was of course totally ignored by our media. Now imagine the reaction if Arabs had done this to Israelis.
al-Ahram is a very biased news source. Don't trust it.
Interesting that the Egyptian army claims these Jews carried their drinking water in the same container as their biological weapons isn't it?
Admit the truth. Stop your denials. The Egyptian army executed two Jews because the Arabs had never seen personal water purification systems, and assumed they were some evil zionist super-weapon.
Interesting that the Egyptian army claims these Jews carried their drinking water in the same container as their biological weapons isn't it?
Admit the truth. Stop your denials. The Egyptian army executed two Jews because the Arabs had never seen personal water purification systems, and assumed they were some evil zionist super-weapon.
FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT YOU MAY ASSUME THAT ARABS ARE PRIMITIVE BUT THAT DOES NOT NEGATE THEIR FIRST HAND ACCOUNTS OF THEIR WELLS BEING POISONED.
ZIONISTS DON'T WISH TO FIGHT A ROBUST OPPONENT BUT A WEAK ONE.
IF THE EARLY ZIONISTS PERPETRATED SUCH THINGS THEY WOULD BR PRONE TO LIE ABOUT IT INSTEAD OF BRAGG ABOUT IT, WOULD THEY NOT/
ZIONISTS DON'T WISH TO FIGHT A ROBUST OPPONENT BUT A WEAK ONE.
IF THE EARLY ZIONISTS PERPETRATED SUCH THINGS THEY WOULD BR PRONE TO LIE ABOUT IT INSTEAD OF BRAGG ABOUT IT, WOULD THEY NOT/
why would the early zionists purify their opponents wells...
without being instructed to prurify them anyhow?
without being instructed to prurify them anyhow?
To "...": You did not cite any first-hand accounts, only an army report that they found what appears to be a personal purification device. These were in turn you corroberated by other accounts of an entirely different event. Does that make any sense to you?
To "-": I never said they intended to purify the wells. The device (which today you can buy at any camping store) is to take water from a contaminated well and purify it for personal consumption. These two Jews were smart to bring them, so they could drink the local water in spite of the cholera epidimic. If you are still confused, go to REI and ask to look at portable water purifiers, you will see they are exactly as the Egyptian army described them.
They probably had chlorine tablets too -- another chemical weapon! (that was sarcasm btw)
To "-": I never said they intended to purify the wells. The device (which today you can buy at any camping store) is to take water from a contaminated well and purify it for personal consumption. These two Jews were smart to bring them, so they could drink the local water in spite of the cholera epidimic. If you are still confused, go to REI and ask to look at portable water purifiers, you will see they are exactly as the Egyptian army described them.
They probably had chlorine tablets too -- another chemical weapon! (that was sarcasm btw)
"ZIONISTS DON'T WISH TO FIGHT A ROBUST OPPONENT BUT A WEAK ONE."
That is true of every army in the world. However, at the time they were fighting five robust opponents. Then it follows that they did not start the war (as you said, they don't wish to fight a robust opponent).
"IF THE EARLY ZIONISTS PERPETRATED SUCH THINGS THEY WOULD BR PRONE TO LIE ABOUT IT INSTEAD OF BRAGG ABOUT IT, WOULD THEY NOT/"
I guess the fact they don't admit something is proof enough for you. Is everyone guilty of everything they don't admit, or does that rule only apply to Zionists?
That is true of every army in the world. However, at the time they were fighting five robust opponents. Then it follows that they did not start the war (as you said, they don't wish to fight a robust opponent).
"IF THE EARLY ZIONISTS PERPETRATED SUCH THINGS THEY WOULD BR PRONE TO LIE ABOUT IT INSTEAD OF BRAGG ABOUT IT, WOULD THEY NOT/"
I guess the fact they don't admit something is proof enough for you. Is everyone guilty of everything they don't admit, or does that rule only apply to Zionists?
Egyptian propaganda is the lowest form of treachery seen on earth. It tries to compete with our much more advanced Israeli propaganda machine.
They outrageously accuse the IDF of poisoning wells belonging to Palestinians. We in the IDF would never do such things, because we needed these wells after we displaced their original orders. The Egyptian papers try to cover up the human rights abuses comitted by their government, unlike our Jerusalem post which not only denies the abuses, but also claims that anyone who has a problem with our ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people is an anti-semite.
Horrific Egyptian propaganda tries to compete with our Zionist propaganda. The Egyptians should know that their propaganda has no chance, after all, it is us Zionists and not the Egyptians who tell George Bush what to do.
Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist
They outrageously accuse the IDF of poisoning wells belonging to Palestinians. We in the IDF would never do such things, because we needed these wells after we displaced their original orders. The Egyptian papers try to cover up the human rights abuses comitted by their government, unlike our Jerusalem post which not only denies the abuses, but also claims that anyone who has a problem with our ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people is an anti-semite.
Horrific Egyptian propaganda tries to compete with our Zionist propaganda. The Egyptians should know that their propaganda has no chance, after all, it is us Zionists and not the Egyptians who tell George Bush what to do.
Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist
Gotta love the zionist conspiracy theories that flood this website. "Zionist" means anyone of any religion in any place who simply agrees that israel should exist. That's it. Anyone who supports israel's existence is a zionist. Anyone who wants israel destroyed is an anti-zionist. Yet if you come to gutters like sf.indymedia.org and listen to the ranting, it's as if everyone who wants israel to survive is secretly involved in some sort of world takeover plot. It's basically like what the nazis and anti-semites used to and still do accuse jews of doing, only now, to be politically correct, they don't say "the jews" they say "the zionists" -- and then to be extra politically correct, they point out that there are more christian zionists than jewish zionists. As if that's somehow going to fool people. BOttom like, zionists are anyone anywhere who wants israel to survive, and these leftist conspiracy nuts are basically saying that any such person is actually secretly involved in some sort of world domination plot.
What's funny is, lets look at who makes these type of insane anti-zionist claims:
(1) osama and friends
(2) saddam and friends
(3) various middle east muslim media outlets
(4) iran, taliban, etc.
(5) david duke
(6) the kkk
(7) white supremecists
(8) neo-nazis
(9) LEFTISTS who claim to hate racism.
Those are the main people on earth who spew these zionist-hating conspiracy theories and single out israel and focus almost all their hatred on the little tiny jewish state.
The israel-hating left are in some really great company. go to david duke's website, you get the EXACT anti-zionist stuff that nessie and angie and these other "peace" protesters spew and spread.
What's funny is, lets look at who makes these type of insane anti-zionist claims:
(1) osama and friends
(2) saddam and friends
(3) various middle east muslim media outlets
(4) iran, taliban, etc.
(5) david duke
(6) the kkk
(7) white supremecists
(8) neo-nazis
(9) LEFTISTS who claim to hate racism.
Those are the main people on earth who spew these zionist-hating conspiracy theories and single out israel and focus almost all their hatred on the little tiny jewish state.
The israel-hating left are in some really great company. go to david duke's website, you get the EXACT anti-zionist stuff that nessie and angie and these other "peace" protesters spew and spread.
Notorious Jewish groups also oppose our poor little Israel. Watch out for
Neturei Karta http://www.nkusa.org
Jews Against The Occupation http://www.jewsagainsttheoccupation.org
and many other Jewish groups. They resort to the Judaic religion and tradition of mercy, equality and justice to oppose our noble Zionist ways of hate and ethnic discrimination. In fact, they resort to one of the oldest and most dedicated anti-zionist ideologies: the Jewish faith.
Are they, in your expert opinion, fascists or nazis or Muslim extremists? To be on the safe side, let's just call them antisemites (who cares that they are Jews). After all, that is what we call every UN, medical and human rights worker who dares to give a testimony of what we really do in Palestine today.
Zionism must be defended at all costs.
Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist
Neturei Karta http://www.nkusa.org
Jews Against The Occupation http://www.jewsagainsttheoccupation.org
and many other Jewish groups. They resort to the Judaic religion and tradition of mercy, equality and justice to oppose our noble Zionist ways of hate and ethnic discrimination. In fact, they resort to one of the oldest and most dedicated anti-zionist ideologies: the Jewish faith.
Are they, in your expert opinion, fascists or nazis or Muslim extremists? To be on the safe side, let's just call them antisemites (who cares that they are Jews). After all, that is what we call every UN, medical and human rights worker who dares to give a testimony of what we really do in Palestine today.
Zionism must be defended at all costs.
Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist
Judging from Zionists total disregard for human life of all religions including Judaism, it is not beyond reason that they would poison an opponents spring well.
Not a day passes when an innocent civilian is not injured maimed and shot.
Yet they continue to insist that these toddlers were killed in self defense.
why would they ever admit to crimes that were done decades ago when they deny crimes that are being done right now>
Not a day passes when an innocent civilian is not injured maimed and shot.
Yet they continue to insist that these toddlers were killed in self defense.
why would they ever admit to crimes that were done decades ago when they deny crimes that are being done right now>
"The zionists" have NEVER tried to do the same in return. "
No. Zionists have not attempted to exterminate Palestinians. They just declare that Palestinians don't exist.
No. Zionists have not attempted to exterminate Palestinians. They just declare that Palestinians don't exist.
Zionists drive Palestinians into the desert and complain that Arabs want to drive them into the sea. Israel attacks its neighbors and then its supporters lie and say the Arabs attacked "poor little Israel." Zionists say that they wanted to live together in 1948 but Palestinians refused -- so Zionists had to kick them out through terrorism.
I'm sick and tired of all the lies Zionists have concocted to make themselves look like the victims all the while they stole the Palestinians' land and homes. In 1947, all of Palestine belonged to Palestinians. Israelis stole it with the help of the US and Great Britain. That is the crux of the injustice and until Zionists get it through their heads that it is up to them to apologize and make reparations, then there cannot be peace.
I'm sick and tired of all the lies Zionists have concocted to make themselves look like the victims all the while they stole the Palestinians' land and homes. In 1947, all of Palestine belonged to Palestinians. Israelis stole it with the help of the US and Great Britain. That is the crux of the injustice and until Zionists get it through their heads that it is up to them to apologize and make reparations, then there cannot be peace.
still zionists dont "have to" listen to you. It is perfectly plausiblle that even if we assume all the bad things you say about zionist that the zionists are inevitably going to win or at least the arabs are going to be defeated and that the capitalists are destined to defeat the socialists.
It is likely that that is what they believe particularly since trends in history seem to support the hypothesis. (you could dispute that but for the same types of biases you dispute it these zionists and capitalists are likely to disagree)
It is likely that that is what they believe particularly since trends in history seem to support the hypothesis. (you could dispute that but for the same types of biases you dispute it these zionists and capitalists are likely to disagree)
You guys are nuts! Why would Israel poison a Pali well when they have the most powerful military in the region that could killed millions. If they wanted to kill as many Palis as possible, they would take after the Russian approach to Chechnya when the Russians bombed Grozny to the ground in 1994 killing 40,000 civilians. But most here dont know what that is because it wasnt evil Jews killing Muslims.
Within probably 7 days of issuing the orders, Sharon could kill tens of thousands of Palis, yet he doesnt. But he is going to poison their wells? why?
Within probably 7 days of issuing the orders, Sharon could kill tens of thousands of Palis, yet he doesnt. But he is going to poison their wells? why?
Dear 'david duke is an antizionist',
Your witty commentary above no doubt had everybody rolling around in laughter. Zionist humour is a very unique thing as you so artfully portrayed it.
Like the ideology itself, it makes absolutely no sense and most people can't grasp it's illogic and senselessness. Zionism isn't for everyone, you know.
I decided to take a break from oppressing the Palestinians yesterday, left the local Zionist centre and visited the Winnipeg zoo. I learned of a horrible tragedy that took place there in the primate section of the zoo. One of the baboons committed suicide last week by repeatedly hitting his head against a rock after some punk teenager told the poor creature that it might have evolved from Ariel Sharon.
Teenagers these days.
See you all again tomorrow, my Zionist friends. Keep up the good Zionist struggle against justice and peace in the Middle East.
Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist
Your witty commentary above no doubt had everybody rolling around in laughter. Zionist humour is a very unique thing as you so artfully portrayed it.
Like the ideology itself, it makes absolutely no sense and most people can't grasp it's illogic and senselessness. Zionism isn't for everyone, you know.
I decided to take a break from oppressing the Palestinians yesterday, left the local Zionist centre and visited the Winnipeg zoo. I learned of a horrible tragedy that took place there in the primate section of the zoo. One of the baboons committed suicide last week by repeatedly hitting his head against a rock after some punk teenager told the poor creature that it might have evolved from Ariel Sharon.
Teenagers these days.
See you all again tomorrow, my Zionist friends. Keep up the good Zionist struggle against justice and peace in the Middle East.
Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist
sharon was not the prime minister to order the zionazi poisoning of Arab wells, he ordered the jenin massacre among many massacres.
It was the first leader of Isrhell, who had modest weaponry yet pursued the tactics of zionism with vengence (poisoned the peoples wells.)
the culprits are ben gurion and golda meir.
Jews are also victimized by their elected officials total disregard for Human-LIVEs...
It was the first leader of Isrhell, who had modest weaponry yet pursued the tactics of zionism with vengence (poisoned the peoples wells.)
the culprits are ben gurion and golda meir.
Jews are also victimized by their elected officials total disregard for Human-LIVEs...
are you part of nk? if not then stop being a useful idiot.
Are you a Jew... I thought so.
please stop being a useful idiot,
understood?
please stop being a useful idiot,
understood?
If you are not a member of NK the logical conclusion is that you are a hypocrite.
Pakistan is a muslim state with about 10 times more people in it than israel.
israel is the one and only jewish state.
there are two dozen other muslim states already.
Funny how the "anti-zionist" agenda is to break up the one and only jewish state, and these "peace" lovers devote such a huge portion of their time NOT merely calling for "freedom for palestinians" but for being "anti-zionist" and calling for israel to cease to exist as a jewish state. But they devote almost no time to urging the world to "break up" all the muslim states and make them democratic, too.
Singling out the jews is fun! Yay! Seig heil!
israel is the one and only jewish state.
there are two dozen other muslim states already.
Funny how the "anti-zionist" agenda is to break up the one and only jewish state, and these "peace" lovers devote such a huge portion of their time NOT merely calling for "freedom for palestinians" but for being "anti-zionist" and calling for israel to cease to exist as a jewish state. But they devote almost no time to urging the world to "break up" all the muslim states and make them democratic, too.
Singling out the jews is fun! Yay! Seig heil!
And the Third Reich was the one and only Nazi state. So what? Does that mean the world should have let the Third Reich live?
Weren't the Nazis trying to take over Europe and rule the world? Israel is not. Is Israel then equavalent to 1930's Germany?
Israel has none, and never had any imperialist ambitions of any sort. The attack on Egypt in 1967 and the occupation of the Gaza and West Bank weren't imperialist actions. The poor Israeli army wanted some extra territory to rule and some more people to subjugate, and who can blame them for that? The attack and occupation of Lebanon was nothing more than a friendly field trip for the IDF. The fun-loving boys in green heroically bombed a capital city packed with civilians (killing only a few thousand, by the way) and decided to let their Phalange friends party in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps. Two thousand Palestinians may have been killed during the Zionist festivities. Now the IDF lovingly evicts Palestinians from their homes to make way for good Israeli settlers who need some fresh and occupied country air.
The villainous Arabs, Muslims, Christians, Jews, the UN, and human rights workers have the brazen nerve to call this 'imperialism'. Israel is only defending itself, attacking others before they plan to attack it.
Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East. Talk to any Palestinian resident of the West Bank or Gaza to learn about they risk being shot, beaten, or made homeless every day by the guardians of liberty and freedom in the Middle East.
Israel is not imperialist.
Israel is a democracy.
Israel loves you.
You must love Israel.
So give us your tax money, or else we will have to kill you.
Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist
The villainous Arabs, Muslims, Christians, Jews, the UN, and human rights workers have the brazen nerve to call this 'imperialism'. Israel is only defending itself, attacking others before they plan to attack it.
Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East. Talk to any Palestinian resident of the West Bank or Gaza to learn about they risk being shot, beaten, or made homeless every day by the guardians of liberty and freedom in the Middle East.
Israel is not imperialist.
Israel is a democracy.
Israel loves you.
You must love Israel.
So give us your tax money, or else we will have to kill you.
Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist
"israel is the one and only jewish state."
by just wondering Tuesday July 29, 2003 at 08:14 PM
And the Third Reich was the one and only Nazi state. So what? Does that mean the world should have let the Third Reich live?
----------------
So you say that Israel=Third Reich and Jewish=Nazi
Interesting. If the indymedia editors need to be sent an email pointing out what's wrong with this statement, then I think gherig may have a point about the anti-semitism here.
by just wondering Tuesday July 29, 2003 at 08:14 PM
And the Third Reich was the one and only Nazi state. So what? Does that mean the world should have let the Third Reich live?
----------------
So you say that Israel=Third Reich and Jewish=Nazi
Interesting. If the indymedia editors need to be sent an email pointing out what's wrong with this statement, then I think gherig may have a point about the anti-semitism here.
Wow, so much anti-israel junk here I don't know where to begin.
To "JUST WONDERING"
The "third reich" wanted to exterminate a race/religion of people off of earth, and take over the continent. Your point is moot, pretty damn stupid, and has nothing to do with israel.
To "JUST WONDERING"
The "third reich" wanted to exterminate a race/religion of people off of earth, and take over the continent. Your point is moot, pretty damn stupid, and has nothing to do with israel.
laugh at the dying: "If the indymedia editors need to be sent an email pointing out what's wrong with this statement, then I think gherig may have a point about the anti-semitism here."
Nessie would only reply to that with "I don't call _Jews_ Nazis, I only call _Zionists_ Nazis. I don't say _Jews_ control the press, I only say _Zionists_ control the press. I don't say _Jews_ are imposing a gigantic financial fraud on the world, I only say _Zionists_ are imposing a gigantic financial fraud on the world. I don't say _Jews_ are an inherently criminal international enterprise with unfathomable power and spies everywhere ready to slit your throat at any moment for a dollar, I only say _Zionists_ are an inherently criminal international enterprise with unfathomable power and spies everywhere ready to slit your throat at any moment for a dollar."
And so on. As if that makes it all better.
And the funny/sad part is, Nessie _honestly believes it does_ make it all better.
@%<
Nessie would only reply to that with "I don't call _Jews_ Nazis, I only call _Zionists_ Nazis. I don't say _Jews_ control the press, I only say _Zionists_ control the press. I don't say _Jews_ are imposing a gigantic financial fraud on the world, I only say _Zionists_ are imposing a gigantic financial fraud on the world. I don't say _Jews_ are an inherently criminal international enterprise with unfathomable power and spies everywhere ready to slit your throat at any moment for a dollar, I only say _Zionists_ are an inherently criminal international enterprise with unfathomable power and spies everywhere ready to slit your throat at any moment for a dollar."
And so on. As if that makes it all better.
And the funny/sad part is, Nessie _honestly believes it does_ make it all better.
@%<
The closest thing I can think of to that sort of a conspiricy organization is actually far left socialism (it used to be lead by comunism.. the head fell off but the body keeps on making spasms).
Maybe that is why it seems so plausible to them that there might be a capitalist/jewish/zionist conspiricy.
Maybe that is why it seems so plausible to them that there might be a capitalist/jewish/zionist conspiricy.
there is a capitalist conspiracy and zionism is one of its many branches.
Judaism has NOTHING and never had anything to do with the conspiracy
Judaism has NOTHING and never had anything to do with the conspiracy
Israel knows nothing of any conspiracy. Of course we have no impact on any American foreign policy.
The fact that:
- The US gives us 3 billion dollars a year to us every year even though they can't afford to provide safe, proper schooling to millions of their own children.
- The Americans walked out of the Durban UN racist conference at our insistence, just because we were about to be criticized for our own racist policies.
- George Bush is allowed to visit our dear fuhrer Ariel Sharon but is not allowed to meet Yasser Arafat.
- The US bombed and starved the Iraqis for invading Kuwait and supposedly posessing WMDs but pays us cash to maintain our 36 year old occupation of the West Bank and Gaza and keep building our own chemical, biological, and nuclear playthings.
- Our Zionist lobby in America is allowed to collect money to finance the murderous IDF but collecting money for Arab murderous groups like Hamas is illegal and is called supporting terrorism ( killing Arabs and Palestinian children is not terrorism- we Zionists call it defending 'security')
are only coincidences that can't be called a conspiracy. George Bush makes decisions about his foreign policy entirely on his own.
We just give him the proper instruction.
Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionisy
The fact that:
- The US gives us 3 billion dollars a year to us every year even though they can't afford to provide safe, proper schooling to millions of their own children.
- The Americans walked out of the Durban UN racist conference at our insistence, just because we were about to be criticized for our own racist policies.
- George Bush is allowed to visit our dear fuhrer Ariel Sharon but is not allowed to meet Yasser Arafat.
- The US bombed and starved the Iraqis for invading Kuwait and supposedly posessing WMDs but pays us cash to maintain our 36 year old occupation of the West Bank and Gaza and keep building our own chemical, biological, and nuclear playthings.
- Our Zionist lobby in America is allowed to collect money to finance the murderous IDF but collecting money for Arab murderous groups like Hamas is illegal and is called supporting terrorism ( killing Arabs and Palestinian children is not terrorism- we Zionists call it defending 'security')
are only coincidences that can't be called a conspiracy. George Bush makes decisions about his foreign policy entirely on his own.
We just give him the proper instruction.
Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionisy
well, if the history of imperialistic colonization of the world is a justification to you, you are a despot. when this happened through out history good people opposed it. zionism and it's consequences aren't a thing of the past, unbelievable violence, ultra nationalism and racism are happening now!! if previous world history of colonization is a justification to you, then you shouldn't have any problem with hitlers methods!!
Duh. In case you haven't noticed: http://www.newamericancentury.org , the neocon website, spells it out.
Just substitute "american" for what's really driving this meglomaniac desire for world domination with "Zionist" and you have the truth. In case you have noticed America has become "Israelized" or you could say "Zionized". The name of the website should really be http://www.newZionistcentury.org, but it's not. That would be too obvious. The Zionists are using America the only world superpower, with the help of their greedy so-called "Christian" counterparts, to dominate the entire world, starting with the Arab countries. DUH! Starting with the Palestinians on the frontline, and then it was Afghanistan, now Iraq. Soon Iran, Syria, even Egpyt and Libya. That's their plan anyway. Whose going stop them? WHO?! Come on, WHO?? We the people.
Just substitute "american" for what's really driving this meglomaniac desire for world domination with "Zionist" and you have the truth. In case you have noticed America has become "Israelized" or you could say "Zionized". The name of the website should really be http://www.newZionistcentury.org, but it's not. That would be too obvious. The Zionists are using America the only world superpower, with the help of their greedy so-called "Christian" counterparts, to dominate the entire world, starting with the Arab countries. DUH! Starting with the Palestinians on the frontline, and then it was Afghanistan, now Iraq. Soon Iran, Syria, even Egpyt and Libya. That's their plan anyway. Whose going stop them? WHO?! Come on, WHO?? We the people.
Uhh, zionism is the supporting of Israel's existence as a default jewish homeland.
Zionists are anyone, anywhere, who support that belief. Nothing more. THey can disagree about everything under the sun, including actual Israeli politics, but as long as they support the past movement that resulted in the creation of a Jewish homeland, they're zionists.
To say that "the zionists want to take over the world" makes you a laughing stock.
And if you're a true "peace activist," you should want to care about truth and reality and spreading views and information that MAKE SENSE, not wackjob nonsense.
Zionists are anyone, anywhere, who support that belief. Nothing more. THey can disagree about everything under the sun, including actual Israeli politics, but as long as they support the past movement that resulted in the creation of a Jewish homeland, they're zionists.
To say that "the zionists want to take over the world" makes you a laughing stock.
And if you're a true "peace activist," you should want to care about truth and reality and spreading views and information that MAKE SENSE, not wackjob nonsense.
Windy Wendy: "this megalomaniac desire for world domination"
wtf, meet Windy Wendy. She claims that she's motivated by a desire to eradicate racism. Ask her about the Kosher Tax or the Khazars. Or, for that matter, whether she agrees with the author of an essay she recently posted -- an author who, in another essay, sez that no Jews were gassed at Auschwitz with Zyklon-B.
And, yes, she really does think the Zionists are plotting world domination.
@%<
wtf, meet Windy Wendy. She claims that she's motivated by a desire to eradicate racism. Ask her about the Kosher Tax or the Khazars. Or, for that matter, whether she agrees with the author of an essay she recently posted -- an author who, in another essay, sez that no Jews were gassed at Auschwitz with Zyklon-B.
And, yes, she really does think the Zionists are plotting world domination.
@%<
And they want Jerusalem to be the world capital of the Zionist-subjugated world. Note how they've already got the US subjugated.
Nice anti-semitism. The "Jews control the world" again crap, eh?
Yep -- same shtick. But, by mutual tacet agreement, by using the codeword "Zionist" to cloak the old anti-Jewish "Protocols" stereotype, SF-IMC will give this antisemitic slander their seal of approval and comment the bigot. And, if eventually backed into a corner enough to admit that, yes, posts like the above _do_ have clear antisemitic overtones, SF-IMC will then try to blame the post on the Jews. Sorry, "the Zionists."
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Most Zionists, and all of the most powerful ones, are (nominal) Christians. Real Christians, ie., followers of Jesus, not the religion named after him, reject Zionism because it sets the interests of one tribe above all others. Real Christians believe we are all equal.
Repeat it all you want; it remains irrelevant and a red herring when the topic is the use of "Zionist" as a codeword by antisemites -- something you've seen here any number of times, from people you've ended up banning from the board for their antisemitism, yet still pretend is really only a theoretical possibility.
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if you stop being anti-gentile, islamaphobic and stop being against equal rights for the palestinians, including all the palestinian refugees to have the right to return to their ancestral homeland, than i promise not to be an anti-semite. deal? you'll see how quickly all the red herrings disappear, dork.
" Real Christians believe we are all equal"
I agree, but some of us are more equal than others
I agree, but some of us are more equal than others
It is amusing when people who have probably not read the bible or the Tora start wandering around defining who is a "real christian" or a "real jew".
Same people who redefine the word zionism probably.
Here is another classic
"....than i promise not to be an anti-semite. deal?"
not even trying to hide it now eh?
Same people who redefine the word zionism probably.
Here is another classic
"....than i promise not to be an anti-semite. deal?"
not even trying to hide it now eh?
Windy Wendy: "If you stop being anti-gentile yammity yammity yammity dork."
Hey, Windy Wendy -- posted any good essays by Holocaust deniers lately? It's been nearly a week since the last time.
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Hey, Windy Wendy -- posted any good essays by Holocaust deniers lately? It's been nearly a week since the last time.
@%<
the main problem with this damn board and with the site at all is that only few have not fallen to age ol' adage that this situation is about religious differences.
nothing could be firther from the reality of the situation.
this conflict is about land and property. you want my land, i don't want you to want my land. you take my land by force, i take it back by force,,, and so on and so forth an nauseum...
you did not take my land because you are a jew, and "i" don't want you to take my land from me because of the fact that you happen to be a quote on quote Jew!
The reigious connotations only distract the viewer from arriving at a n acceptable Y E T Peaceful resolution to a territorial dispute!
nothing could be firther from the reality of the situation.
this conflict is about land and property. you want my land, i don't want you to want my land. you take my land by force, i take it back by force,,, and so on and so forth an nauseum...
you did not take my land because you are a jew, and "i" don't want you to take my land from me because of the fact that you happen to be a quote on quote Jew!
The reigious connotations only distract the viewer from arriving at a n acceptable Y E T Peaceful resolution to a territorial dispute!
Wow, this is the perfect post that represents the problem with these pro-palestinian activists today.
A damn lunatic activist said: "if you stop being anti-gentile, islamaphobic and stop being against equal rights for the palestinians, including all the palestinian refugees to have the right to return to their ancestral homeland, than i promise not to be an anti-semite. deal? you'll see how quickly all the red herrings disappear, dork."
NORMAL PERSON'S EDUCATED RESPONSE: So in other words, you will no longer be a crazed anti-semite if the Jews of israel agree to let millions of Palestinians flood into Israel, where the 5% or so who are extremist (that would be tens of thousands of extremists) can then go and murder as many jews as possible?
That's your offer? If the jews of israel agree to be wiped out or chased away, you won't be an anti-semite?
Gee, and people wonder why so many of us jews are having a rough time with you "peace" activists. And no, just because a handful of nutcases who happen to be jewish agree with you doesn't mean that your absurd and basically retarded "solution" is valid.
There were hundreds of thousands of arab refugees from israel but also hundreds of thousands of jewish refugees from arab countries. Why are you calling for the "right of return" and compensation for the arab refugees, but not also calling for the same thing for the jewish refugees? Is it because the jewish refugees went on to build israel up while the arab refugees, who had full control of tons of land from 1948 to 1967 yet CHOSE to just keep attacking israel intead of forming a state, succeeded?
There's no "right of return" for either side. Or, figure out a "right of return" for both sides. But you don't want what's fair. You just want muslims to flood into israel to murder the jews. Then you'll be happy. End.
A damn lunatic activist said: "if you stop being anti-gentile, islamaphobic and stop being against equal rights for the palestinians, including all the palestinian refugees to have the right to return to their ancestral homeland, than i promise not to be an anti-semite. deal? you'll see how quickly all the red herrings disappear, dork."
NORMAL PERSON'S EDUCATED RESPONSE: So in other words, you will no longer be a crazed anti-semite if the Jews of israel agree to let millions of Palestinians flood into Israel, where the 5% or so who are extremist (that would be tens of thousands of extremists) can then go and murder as many jews as possible?
That's your offer? If the jews of israel agree to be wiped out or chased away, you won't be an anti-semite?
Gee, and people wonder why so many of us jews are having a rough time with you "peace" activists. And no, just because a handful of nutcases who happen to be jewish agree with you doesn't mean that your absurd and basically retarded "solution" is valid.
There were hundreds of thousands of arab refugees from israel but also hundreds of thousands of jewish refugees from arab countries. Why are you calling for the "right of return" and compensation for the arab refugees, but not also calling for the same thing for the jewish refugees? Is it because the jewish refugees went on to build israel up while the arab refugees, who had full control of tons of land from 1948 to 1967 yet CHOSE to just keep attacking israel intead of forming a state, succeeded?
There's no "right of return" for either side. Or, figure out a "right of return" for both sides. But you don't want what's fair. You just want muslims to flood into israel to murder the jews. Then you'll be happy. End.
which was their home, which was stolen from them by the crusader-colonists.
Yeah, it sounds good to you for palestinians to flood into israel and kill the jews. Exactly. And you wonder why we jews have issues with that. Gee.
No, Israel was formed by jews who spent decade after decade flocking there and building up communities, and then being put in charge of the land by the people who controlled it. The war arab countries began against israel is when hundreds of thousands of palestinians were either forcibly displaced or just fled to avoid being caught in the middle of war. Hundreds of thousands of jews in arab countries wound up having to do the same. It was a population exchange. Arabs scattered in one direction, jews scattered in another. Such a thing has happened over and over and over in places around the world. THe Palestinians are the only people who didn't get on with their lives, didn't build their own state even when they and arabs had FULL CONTROL of the west bank, gaza and east jerusalem from 1949 to 1967, they are some of the only refugees who could have formed their own state but instead just ran around terrorizing everyone from king hussein of jordan to lebanon to kuwait to israel.
Again, try to get this into your head: there was a population exchange. Jews lost homes in arab countries, arabs lost homes in the one jewish country. But the jews who fled to israel aren't going back to yemen or egypt and suicide-bombing people demanding their homes and property back, the jews who fled iran aren't going and trying to kill the wacko leaders there, jews who got slaughtered in germany aren't returning to germany and setting off terrorist bombs in cafes, jews who moved/fled to israel have gotten on with their lives in every way except for the fact that people who CONTROLLED LAND for almost TWENTY YEARS AND CHOSE not to form a state have insisted on being terrorists for about 30 years now.
If you demand that israel be "undone" to accomodate a few million arabs, you better also demand that the various other arab countries give back jewish property to the jews. You won't, though. You want to reward arab palestinians for not establishing a state from 1948 to 1967 and instead just attacking israel over and over and over until israel finally took control of that land too and offered to give it back to palestinians if they would just stop attacking, but palestinians kept attacking, so israel's response has been to settle on it, and the longer palestinians choose the path of intifada and jihad and lunacy, the more israel should settle on that land and make it a permanent annexing.
No, Israel was formed by jews who spent decade after decade flocking there and building up communities, and then being put in charge of the land by the people who controlled it. The war arab countries began against israel is when hundreds of thousands of palestinians were either forcibly displaced or just fled to avoid being caught in the middle of war. Hundreds of thousands of jews in arab countries wound up having to do the same. It was a population exchange. Arabs scattered in one direction, jews scattered in another. Such a thing has happened over and over and over in places around the world. THe Palestinians are the only people who didn't get on with their lives, didn't build their own state even when they and arabs had FULL CONTROL of the west bank, gaza and east jerusalem from 1949 to 1967, they are some of the only refugees who could have formed their own state but instead just ran around terrorizing everyone from king hussein of jordan to lebanon to kuwait to israel.
Again, try to get this into your head: there was a population exchange. Jews lost homes in arab countries, arabs lost homes in the one jewish country. But the jews who fled to israel aren't going back to yemen or egypt and suicide-bombing people demanding their homes and property back, the jews who fled iran aren't going and trying to kill the wacko leaders there, jews who got slaughtered in germany aren't returning to germany and setting off terrorist bombs in cafes, jews who moved/fled to israel have gotten on with their lives in every way except for the fact that people who CONTROLLED LAND for almost TWENTY YEARS AND CHOSE not to form a state have insisted on being terrorists for about 30 years now.
If you demand that israel be "undone" to accomodate a few million arabs, you better also demand that the various other arab countries give back jewish property to the jews. You won't, though. You want to reward arab palestinians for not establishing a state from 1948 to 1967 and instead just attacking israel over and over and over until israel finally took control of that land too and offered to give it back to palestinians if they would just stop attacking, but palestinians kept attacking, so israel's response has been to settle on it, and the longer palestinians choose the path of intifada and jihad and lunacy, the more israel should settle on that land and make it a permanent annexing.
... so now there's Israel. It's not leaving. Stop fighting the Jews and move onto something more productive.
_____________________
When much of the world thinks about the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians, it sees Jews of European origin confronting indigenous people of color who have been banished from their homeland. This enables Arab leaders to portray Israel as a white colonizing nation.
The reality is that Jews are a multi-racial, multi-ethnic people. For about 50 years, the majority of the Jewish population of Israel has been Mizrahim -- Jews indigenous to the Middle East and North Africa. Moreover, this community of Jews has lived in the Middle East and North Africa since time immemorial. Until the mid-twentieth century, in the 4,000-year history of the Jewish people, Mizrahim never left the region.
Ironically, Jewish leaders are the ones who created the perception of Jews as white. Arab leaders have merely turned this perception to their own advantage. Given the way Jewish heritage has been taught and presented for decades, when we use the word “Jews,” the vision that pops into our mind is not the black faces of Ethiopian Jews or the dark brown skin of Yemenite Jews. When we look for Jewish names, we don’t look for names like Comerchero, Sarshar, or Mo’alem. When we think “Jewish,” we think Poland, Germany, and Russia. We think bagels and cream cheese, Yiddish, and the Holocaust.
Mizrahim lived on the land of present-day Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Morocco, and Yemen before they were called by these names, before there was such a thing as an Arab state. Mizrahim lived there for 2,500 years -- that’s 1,200 years before the Islamic invasion of the region. Their presence dates from 586 BCE, when the Babylonian Empire destroyed ancient Israel and took the Israelites as captives to the land of present-day Iraq.
When Arab Muslims conquered the Middle East and North Africa, Jews were one of the few indigenous peoples that resisted conversion to Islam, the result being that the Jews were given the status of dhimmi. According to this status, Jews were a tolerated yet inferior people, who should be forever punished for rejecting the vision of Muhammed. What this meant was that suddenly Jews lost the autonomy they had enjoyed with their non-Muslim neighbors.
Jews were commonly forced into ghettos, prohibited from owning land, prevented from entering numerous professions, and forbidden from doing anything to physically or symbolically demonstrate equality with Arab Muslims. This basic attitude of contempt, oppression, and humiliation permeated the daily life of Jews. In addition, massacres were not uncommon, at times wiping out entire Jewish communities.
When dhimmi laws were lax, and Jews were allowed to participate to a greater degree in their society, the Jewish community would flourish. Often, the response to that success would be a wave of harassment or massacre of Jews, instigated by the government or the masses. Once disempowered and weak, the Jewish community would have a period of relative quiet.
For the most part, Jews lived in a basic state of subservience. They could participate in the society around them, they could enjoy a certain degree of wealth and status, and they could befriend their Arab Muslim neighbors, but they always had to know their place. The Arab-Israel relationship and the current crisis occur in the context of a history in which Arab Muslims oppressed Jews for 1,300 years.
In the 20th Centruy, Palestinian leadership had a strong hand in terrorizing and expelling Jews throughout the Arab world, leading to 900,000 Jewish refugees fleeing the region. In 1941, for example, Hajj Amin al-Husayni, the Mufti of Jerusalem went to Berlin as a guest of the Nazi regime. He drafted a political declaration asking Germany and Italy to “recognize the rights of Palestine and other Arab countries (to) resolve the problem of the Jewish elements in Palestine and the other Arab countries in the same way as the problem was resolved in the Axis countries" -- i.e., through genocide.
In a speech at a rally in Berlin Nov. 2, 1943, al-Husayni voiced his hope for a “final solution” to the Jewish presence in the Middle East. Not long after, anti-Jewish riots erupted throughout the Arab world. Jewish citizens were assaulted, tortured, and murdered. In a few Arab countries, Jews were outright expelled. Throughout the region, Jewish property was confiscated and nationalized, forcing Jews to flee from their homes of thousands of years.
We do not hear about the Jewish refugee problem today, because Israel absorbed about 600,000 of these 900,000 refugees. In contrast, Arab states did not absorb the Arab refugees from the Arab war against Israel in 1948. Instead, they built squalid refugee camps in the West Bank and Gaza -- at the time controlled by Jordan and Egypt -- and dumped innocent Arabs in them -- Palestinians doomed to become political pawns. Countries such as Lebanon and Syria continued funding assaults against Israel instead of funding basic medical and educational care for the Palestinian refugee families.
In 1967, Israel inherited the Palestinian refugee problem, through a defensive war. When Israel tried to build housing for the refugees in Gaza, Arab states led votes against it in UN resolutions, because absorption would change the status of the refugees. Israel went on to give more money to the Palestinian refugees than all but three of the Arab states combined, prior to transferring responsibility of the territories to the Palestinian Authority in the mid-1990s. Israel built hospitals and educational institutions for Palestinians in the territories. Israel trained the Palestinian police force. And yet the 22 Arab states dominate both the land and the wealth of the region. So who is to blame for today’s refugee problem?
Without an accurate and complete view of the history in the Middle East, government leaders and peace activists will continue to push the region into an unstable future that lacks integrity. It is high time that we all hold Arab leadership accountable for their actions against all the refugees of the region -- Jewish and Arab. Until that happens, peace will remain an illusive dream.
_____________________
When much of the world thinks about the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians, it sees Jews of European origin confronting indigenous people of color who have been banished from their homeland. This enables Arab leaders to portray Israel as a white colonizing nation.
The reality is that Jews are a multi-racial, multi-ethnic people. For about 50 years, the majority of the Jewish population of Israel has been Mizrahim -- Jews indigenous to the Middle East and North Africa. Moreover, this community of Jews has lived in the Middle East and North Africa since time immemorial. Until the mid-twentieth century, in the 4,000-year history of the Jewish people, Mizrahim never left the region.
Ironically, Jewish leaders are the ones who created the perception of Jews as white. Arab leaders have merely turned this perception to their own advantage. Given the way Jewish heritage has been taught and presented for decades, when we use the word “Jews,” the vision that pops into our mind is not the black faces of Ethiopian Jews or the dark brown skin of Yemenite Jews. When we look for Jewish names, we don’t look for names like Comerchero, Sarshar, or Mo’alem. When we think “Jewish,” we think Poland, Germany, and Russia. We think bagels and cream cheese, Yiddish, and the Holocaust.
Mizrahim lived on the land of present-day Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Morocco, and Yemen before they were called by these names, before there was such a thing as an Arab state. Mizrahim lived there for 2,500 years -- that’s 1,200 years before the Islamic invasion of the region. Their presence dates from 586 BCE, when the Babylonian Empire destroyed ancient Israel and took the Israelites as captives to the land of present-day Iraq.
When Arab Muslims conquered the Middle East and North Africa, Jews were one of the few indigenous peoples that resisted conversion to Islam, the result being that the Jews were given the status of dhimmi. According to this status, Jews were a tolerated yet inferior people, who should be forever punished for rejecting the vision of Muhammed. What this meant was that suddenly Jews lost the autonomy they had enjoyed with their non-Muslim neighbors.
Jews were commonly forced into ghettos, prohibited from owning land, prevented from entering numerous professions, and forbidden from doing anything to physically or symbolically demonstrate equality with Arab Muslims. This basic attitude of contempt, oppression, and humiliation permeated the daily life of Jews. In addition, massacres were not uncommon, at times wiping out entire Jewish communities.
When dhimmi laws were lax, and Jews were allowed to participate to a greater degree in their society, the Jewish community would flourish. Often, the response to that success would be a wave of harassment or massacre of Jews, instigated by the government or the masses. Once disempowered and weak, the Jewish community would have a period of relative quiet.
For the most part, Jews lived in a basic state of subservience. They could participate in the society around them, they could enjoy a certain degree of wealth and status, and they could befriend their Arab Muslim neighbors, but they always had to know their place. The Arab-Israel relationship and the current crisis occur in the context of a history in which Arab Muslims oppressed Jews for 1,300 years.
In the 20th Centruy, Palestinian leadership had a strong hand in terrorizing and expelling Jews throughout the Arab world, leading to 900,000 Jewish refugees fleeing the region. In 1941, for example, Hajj Amin al-Husayni, the Mufti of Jerusalem went to Berlin as a guest of the Nazi regime. He drafted a political declaration asking Germany and Italy to “recognize the rights of Palestine and other Arab countries (to) resolve the problem of the Jewish elements in Palestine and the other Arab countries in the same way as the problem was resolved in the Axis countries" -- i.e., through genocide.
In a speech at a rally in Berlin Nov. 2, 1943, al-Husayni voiced his hope for a “final solution” to the Jewish presence in the Middle East. Not long after, anti-Jewish riots erupted throughout the Arab world. Jewish citizens were assaulted, tortured, and murdered. In a few Arab countries, Jews were outright expelled. Throughout the region, Jewish property was confiscated and nationalized, forcing Jews to flee from their homes of thousands of years.
We do not hear about the Jewish refugee problem today, because Israel absorbed about 600,000 of these 900,000 refugees. In contrast, Arab states did not absorb the Arab refugees from the Arab war against Israel in 1948. Instead, they built squalid refugee camps in the West Bank and Gaza -- at the time controlled by Jordan and Egypt -- and dumped innocent Arabs in them -- Palestinians doomed to become political pawns. Countries such as Lebanon and Syria continued funding assaults against Israel instead of funding basic medical and educational care for the Palestinian refugee families.
In 1967, Israel inherited the Palestinian refugee problem, through a defensive war. When Israel tried to build housing for the refugees in Gaza, Arab states led votes against it in UN resolutions, because absorption would change the status of the refugees. Israel went on to give more money to the Palestinian refugees than all but three of the Arab states combined, prior to transferring responsibility of the territories to the Palestinian Authority in the mid-1990s. Israel built hospitals and educational institutions for Palestinians in the territories. Israel trained the Palestinian police force. And yet the 22 Arab states dominate both the land and the wealth of the region. So who is to blame for today’s refugee problem?
Without an accurate and complete view of the history in the Middle East, government leaders and peace activists will continue to push the region into an unstable future that lacks integrity. It is high time that we all hold Arab leadership accountable for their actions against all the refugees of the region -- Jewish and Arab. Until that happens, peace will remain an illusive dream.
besides, Jews had it much better amongst Arab countries than in European countries until of course, the arrival of the racist ethnocentric Zionists with their Jewish Supremacist notions happened on the scene in Palestine in the 1890's.
Jews should consider that most of them seem to be anti-Arab, and anti-Gentile and only out for themselves, and this is very obvious in that racist apartheid country of Israel.
If Jews want to be loved and respected, then Jews need to love and respect non-Jews.
Remember the Golden Rule.
Jews should consider that most of them seem to be anti-Arab, and anti-Gentile and only out for themselves, and this is very obvious in that racist apartheid country of Israel.
If Jews want to be loved and respected, then Jews need to love and respect non-Jews.
Remember the Golden Rule.
In 1948, the White European countries that dominated the UN gave away Arab Palestinian land that was NOT theirs to give away in the first place to Eastern European Zionist White Supremacist Jews who began their vicious campaign of ethnic cleansing against the non-Jewish Palestinians living there, in the process of terrorizing the entire population of Palestinians with massacres, completely demolishing entire Palestinian villages, many Palestinians fled their homeland in terror, over half of the population, about 800,000 who were the first of the Palestinian refugees. These refugees have never been allowed to return to their ancestral homeland even though it is their inalienable right according to UN Resolutions, International Law and world opinion. Israel is a racist, anti-democratic, theocratic, apartheid state, guilty of massive ethnic cleansing and slow genocide of the indigenous people of the land, just because they are not Jewish, in order to maintain a Jewish state, which is dominated by White Jewish Supremacists.
When will you give us a respite from all your MINDLESS anti Israeli and anti-Semitic repetitive prattling bullshit spam?
Anyone who trumpets the "zionism and israel were founded out of jewish supremecism" BULLSHIT should be placed immediately into the "lying wackjob" category.
We pray for the peaceful dismantling of the Zionist state of Israel, and for equal rights for all in Palestine-Israel, including for all the Palestinian refugees who must be allowed their right to return to their ancestral homeland as equals. Amen.
Palestinians have 22 Arab states to choose from. Jews have only 1 small country that I promised them, only they are entitled to live there, so in answer to your prayer, HELL NO!!!
Someone above repeated the usual matra: "We pray for the peaceful dismantling of the Zionist state of Israel, and for equal rights for all in Palestine-Israel, including for all the Palestinian refugees who must be allowed their right to return to their ancestral homeland as equals. Amen."
RESPONSE: Why don't you pray for hte peaceful dismantling of the muslim states? Why only the jewish state? Why JUST the jews? Why JUST single israel out? THis isn't changing the subject, it's curious why you single the ONE jewish state out for not being a perfect democracy while you say NOTHING of the arab states whose behavior is DIRECTLY RELATED to how israel acts.
RESPONSE: Why don't you pray for hte peaceful dismantling of the muslim states? Why only the jewish state? Why JUST the jews? Why JUST single israel out? THis isn't changing the subject, it's curious why you single the ONE jewish state out for not being a perfect democracy while you say NOTHING of the arab states whose behavior is DIRECTLY RELATED to how israel acts.
Jews can go anywhere in the world in case you haven't noticed, except for some Arab countries, but that's only due to the way the Zionist Jews have been treating the Palestinians and the neighboring countries of Israel since its immoral founding in 1948.
Palestinians on the other hand are not, and Israel has been defying over 70 UN Resolutions, more than any other country, including by not allowing the Palestinian refugees their inalienable right to return to their ancestral homeland, and as equals, since Israel MUST be transformed into a TRUE democracy with equal rights for all regardless of religion, etc. This CAN and WILL be possible thru the same process that ended apartheid in So. Africa when it became a TRUE democracy.
No exceptions for Israel. The truth is the Israel is a racist, anti-democratic apartheid theocracy NOT a democracy.
Palestinians on the other hand are not, and Israel has been defying over 70 UN Resolutions, more than any other country, including by not allowing the Palestinian refugees their inalienable right to return to their ancestral homeland, and as equals, since Israel MUST be transformed into a TRUE democracy with equal rights for all regardless of religion, etc. This CAN and WILL be possible thru the same process that ended apartheid in So. Africa when it became a TRUE democracy.
No exceptions for Israel. The truth is the Israel is a racist, anti-democratic apartheid theocracy NOT a democracy.
If we didn't do it, the media would be virtually devoid of criticism of Israel and flooded with criticism od Palestine.
>Why don't you pray for hte peaceful dismantling of the muslim states?
Why duplicate your effort? You have it covered.
This is a simple matter of division of labor. Zionists single out Palestine. We single out Israel. Look at the internet as a whole and you will see that those who single out Palestine have the lion's share of the coverage. The internet is *flooded* with their side of the story. They even try to flood this site. Why single out poor little SF-IMC, all alone and surround by enemies? Why not leave at least one place on the net where the other side can be heard?
Why, indeed.
It's because Zionists don't want you to hear the other side. They'll do anything to try to stop us from providing you with the opportunity to hear the other side of the story. They spam, the DOS, the forge posts, they lie, they distort, they slander. They'll do anything. No tactic, however dishonest, is beneath them.
Why? Because there is no honest defense of a racist ideology, not of Zionism, not of Nazism, not of any.
So they lie. and they try their best to drown out the truth with noise. Shame on them. And if you fall for it, shame on you.
"By way of deception shalt thou do war." -- Mossad memo
>Why don't you pray for hte peaceful dismantling of the muslim states?
Why duplicate your effort? You have it covered.
This is a simple matter of division of labor. Zionists single out Palestine. We single out Israel. Look at the internet as a whole and you will see that those who single out Palestine have the lion's share of the coverage. The internet is *flooded* with their side of the story. They even try to flood this site. Why single out poor little SF-IMC, all alone and surround by enemies? Why not leave at least one place on the net where the other side can be heard?
Why, indeed.
It's because Zionists don't want you to hear the other side. They'll do anything to try to stop us from providing you with the opportunity to hear the other side of the story. They spam, the DOS, the forge posts, they lie, they distort, they slander. They'll do anything. No tactic, however dishonest, is beneath them.
Why? Because there is no honest defense of a racist ideology, not of Zionism, not of Nazism, not of any.
So they lie. and they try their best to drown out the truth with noise. Shame on them. And if you fall for it, shame on you.
"By way of deception shalt thou do war." -- Mossad memo
"Re: t's because Zionists don't want you to hear the other side. "
The news seems biased against Palestinians in the same way its biased against the FARC, the seperatists in Kashmir, the rebels in Ache, etc... Is all of the bias the result of a secret Zionist conspiracy?
The media is biased because its run by huge corporations. The media tends to favor governments over rebel groups (especially in countries that engage in a lot of trade)The people running media corporations are in most cases not Zionists (unless you are prepared to call Rupert Murdoch, an obviously very antiSemetic man, a Zionist)
Zionism was a movement in teh early 1900s that moved a lot of people to Israel. Many early Zionists were secular and Socialists. Some Zionists like Albert Einstein (and early member and leader of teh WZO) opposed the way Israel was created but that didnt suddenly make them not consider themselves ZIonists. Im guessing people attacking Zionists are thinking about crazed settlers (many who moved to Israel form NYC) who have a religious belief in expanding Israel to the Jordan river. The total number of people with that belief is small and doesnt even include most of Likud (thats wants a larger Israel for political and military reasons)
The focus of proPalestinian activism needs to be on making conditions better for Palestinians, ending the occupation, stopping racism in Israel etc... By bring up words like Zionism (that means "racist Jew" to Leftists, "people who dont want Jews in Israel expelled" by many Israelis and who knows what to the general public) When did the terminology of far right conspiracy theories (ZOG) become an accepted part of anarchist thought?
The news seems biased against Palestinians in the same way its biased against the FARC, the seperatists in Kashmir, the rebels in Ache, etc... Is all of the bias the result of a secret Zionist conspiracy?
The media is biased because its run by huge corporations. The media tends to favor governments over rebel groups (especially in countries that engage in a lot of trade)The people running media corporations are in most cases not Zionists (unless you are prepared to call Rupert Murdoch, an obviously very antiSemetic man, a Zionist)
Zionism was a movement in teh early 1900s that moved a lot of people to Israel. Many early Zionists were secular and Socialists. Some Zionists like Albert Einstein (and early member and leader of teh WZO) opposed the way Israel was created but that didnt suddenly make them not consider themselves ZIonists. Im guessing people attacking Zionists are thinking about crazed settlers (many who moved to Israel form NYC) who have a religious belief in expanding Israel to the Jordan river. The total number of people with that belief is small and doesnt even include most of Likud (thats wants a larger Israel for political and military reasons)
The focus of proPalestinian activism needs to be on making conditions better for Palestinians, ending the occupation, stopping racism in Israel etc... By bring up words like Zionism (that means "racist Jew" to Leftists, "people who dont want Jews in Israel expelled" by many Israelis and who knows what to the general public) When did the terminology of far right conspiracy theories (ZOG) become an accepted part of anarchist thought?
"Zionist is about support for the state of Israel"
Its not, its about support for a state thats safe for Jews ("a state" and "the state" are very different things). There are many people who call themselves Zionists and hate Sharon. In fact most Israelis have said that they support a two state solution and Im guessing that most self-described Zionists in Israel would also be of the same opinion. There were even people like Einstein who called themselves Zionists but didnt support the actions of Begin that lead to the realization of an Israeli state.
The reason that antiZionism and antiSemitism are blurred is that Zionism isnt party membership or support for a specific policy. There are Jewish groups that are antiZionist for religious reasons and feel that Jews need to roam the earth as a minority until Elijah comes, but I dont think thats where the attacks on this site are comming from. People hate the actions of Sharon so they hate Zionists. That makes about as much sense as hating Hindus for the actions of the BJP.
Its not, its about support for a state thats safe for Jews ("a state" and "the state" are very different things). There are many people who call themselves Zionists and hate Sharon. In fact most Israelis have said that they support a two state solution and Im guessing that most self-described Zionists in Israel would also be of the same opinion. There were even people like Einstein who called themselves Zionists but didnt support the actions of Begin that lead to the realization of an Israeli state.
The reason that antiZionism and antiSemitism are blurred is that Zionism isnt party membership or support for a specific policy. There are Jewish groups that are antiZionist for religious reasons and feel that Jews need to roam the earth as a minority until Elijah comes, but I dont think thats where the attacks on this site are comming from. People hate the actions of Sharon so they hate Zionists. That makes about as much sense as hating Hindus for the actions of the BJP.
"they worship money and power. ...The state of Israel is their puppet. Thier sole and only interest in itscontinued existence is its usefulness as a cats paw. "
Who IS this secret society that controls Israel.
I dont see any mention of them here:
http://www.haaretz.com/
And its all about Israel politics with severe attacks on Sharon and the IDF.In fact you rarely see any mention of the word Zionist or Zionism in the Israeli media.
But I guess thats because the Zionists are lurking behind the scenes plotting evil things for the Jewish population and the media is hiding their existance.
Does this secret Zionist society call itself Zionist? How do you know they arent Masons or maybe even witchs? Perhaps they are Communists? Or aliens? Maybe there is just a single evil Zionist who sits in a room smoking cigarettes like on the X Files?
At least explain the difference between Capitalists and these secretive Zionists who control Israel and dont care about Jews? Does Zionist just mean Capitalist to you? Or are Zionists a secret society of Capitalists?
Who IS this secret society that controls Israel.
I dont see any mention of them here:
http://www.haaretz.com/
And its all about Israel politics with severe attacks on Sharon and the IDF.In fact you rarely see any mention of the word Zionist or Zionism in the Israeli media.
But I guess thats because the Zionists are lurking behind the scenes plotting evil things for the Jewish population and the media is hiding their existance.
Does this secret Zionist society call itself Zionist? How do you know they arent Masons or maybe even witchs? Perhaps they are Communists? Or aliens? Maybe there is just a single evil Zionist who sits in a room smoking cigarettes like on the X Files?
At least explain the difference between Capitalists and these secretive Zionists who control Israel and dont care about Jews? Does Zionist just mean Capitalist to you? Or are Zionists a secret society of Capitalists?
"Zionism is merely one of the ways they exert"
So now Zionism is an action. Explain this new definition in terms of the frequent use of Zionist on this site.
Does Zionism mean support for Sharon or support for the occupation or support for letting Jews stay in Israel rather than being pushed into the sea? Does Zionism mean support for allowing Jews to immigrate to Palestine now or just 50 years ago? Or is it the discriminatory nature of immigration laws that somehow define Zionism?
Were the several Socialist leaders of the WZO in the preWWII period really Capitalist dupes in disguise. Or perhaps the WZO and early Zionists like Herzl were not Zionists by your defintion.
Israel has severe problems that need to be dealt with. The occupation must end. Many very conservative groups in the US support Israel. The US backs Israel to protect its oil interests in neighboring countries among other reasons. But to talk of a conspiracy of Zionists who control the world wthout the knowledge of even most Israelis is silly. Do you think that somehow only a few crazies on SF Indymedia and a few KKK web sites know the truth and everyone else is being misled by ZOG? Explain to me the difference between your conspiracy theory and the ZOG conspiracy theory put out by neonazis. They sounds really similar.
Im guessing that some of the antiZIonists stuff on this site started with neoNazis and that radicals who have their hearts in the right place have taken up portions of their conspiracies almost by accident (you never heard anyone yelling about Zionists at the large Palestinain marchs in San Francisco last year, its only been in the last year that ZIonists have started to replace Capitalists as the root of all evil). The rightwingers posting proIsrael rants dont help either since its hard for people to see in shades of grey. Israel's actions are bad, but adopting neoNazi conspiracy theories about secret societies is also bad (and for obvious reasons hurts Palestinians more than Israelis since most nonradicals see neoNazi talk of ZOG for what it is).
So now Zionism is an action. Explain this new definition in terms of the frequent use of Zionist on this site.
Does Zionism mean support for Sharon or support for the occupation or support for letting Jews stay in Israel rather than being pushed into the sea? Does Zionism mean support for allowing Jews to immigrate to Palestine now or just 50 years ago? Or is it the discriminatory nature of immigration laws that somehow define Zionism?
Were the several Socialist leaders of the WZO in the preWWII period really Capitalist dupes in disguise. Or perhaps the WZO and early Zionists like Herzl were not Zionists by your defintion.
Israel has severe problems that need to be dealt with. The occupation must end. Many very conservative groups in the US support Israel. The US backs Israel to protect its oil interests in neighboring countries among other reasons. But to talk of a conspiracy of Zionists who control the world wthout the knowledge of even most Israelis is silly. Do you think that somehow only a few crazies on SF Indymedia and a few KKK web sites know the truth and everyone else is being misled by ZOG? Explain to me the difference between your conspiracy theory and the ZOG conspiracy theory put out by neonazis. They sounds really similar.
Im guessing that some of the antiZIonists stuff on this site started with neoNazis and that radicals who have their hearts in the right place have taken up portions of their conspiracies almost by accident (you never heard anyone yelling about Zionists at the large Palestinain marchs in San Francisco last year, its only been in the last year that ZIonists have started to replace Capitalists as the root of all evil). The rightwingers posting proIsrael rants dont help either since its hard for people to see in shades of grey. Israel's actions are bad, but adopting neoNazi conspiracy theories about secret societies is also bad (and for obvious reasons hurts Palestinians more than Israelis since most nonradicals see neoNazi talk of ZOG for what it is).
If we are to go with the global capitalist conspiricy theory
It seems the big thing that israel does is creates a Huge diversion for liberal and islamic people to focus on somthing other than more significant issues. cheap at a few billion a year I guess.
israel just being a tiny dot on the world map - the protest about israel is the major effect not israel itself.
One could liken it to the israel baiting for terrorism theory.
Wherein capitalists are just baiting liberals to side with islamic terrorists who then undermine the liberals position when they finaly break out a big weapon.
the liberals will then go down with the ship.
It seems the big thing that israel does is creates a Huge diversion for liberal and islamic people to focus on somthing other than more significant issues. cheap at a few billion a year I guess.
israel just being a tiny dot on the world map - the protest about israel is the major effect not israel itself.
One could liken it to the israel baiting for terrorism theory.
Wherein capitalists are just baiting liberals to side with islamic terrorists who then undermine the liberals position when they finaly break out a big weapon.
the liberals will then go down with the ship.
Amazing how arabs control OVER 99% of the middle east, jews control UNDER 1%, yet the entire arab world agrees that the jews have too much land control.
1) If Palestinians want to live side-by-side with Israel, then why do all their government logos and websites show Palestine encompassing all of Israel, with Israel nonexistent?
2) If a primary point of the road map is "confronting all those engaged in terror and dismantlement of terrorist capabilities and infrastructure," then why do the Palestinians demand that Israel release thousands of terrorists from prison, an item not even included in the road map? Instead, shouldn't the Palestinians be arresting terrorists themselves? And shouldn't we be outraged that the two suicide bombers who murdered 15 Israelis on Sept. 9, 2003 (Hillel Cafe and Tzrifin bus stop) were among a group of Palestinian prisoners released by Israel this year?
3) If Israel is supposedly allowed to "take all necessary steps to defend its citizens," then why is Israel condemned for building bypass roads so drivers can avoid ambushes, condemned for building a fence to keep suicide bombers out, condemned for targeted killings of terrorist leaders, condemned for operating road blocks to screen for suicide bombers, condemned for clearing areas used for launching rockets, and condemned for keeping terrorists in jail? How exactly is Israel expected to defend itself?
4) When the PLO first demanded a state in 1964, it wanted every part of Israel except the West Bank and Gaza (which were then in the hands of Jordan and Egypt). Is it reasonable to assume that they now want only the West Bank and Gaza, or is that more likely a Trojan Horse - as Palestinian leader Faisal al-Husseini described it in 2001, as a first step to destroy Israel?
5) Why is the targeted killing of terrorists and their supporters lauded when done by the United States in Iraq, but not when done by Israel whose civilians face a daily threat of terror attacks?
6) Why has the United Nations passed far more condemnations against Israel than any other country - including Iraq, Iran, Sudan, Chechnya, Saudi Arabia, Liberia, North Korea, and China combined - while millions were massacred in these other places? And then how does the UN expect Israel to accept it as an impartial mediator?
7) Why - if the Palestinian Authority has little freedom of speech and freedom of the press, little religious tolerance, is oppressive of Christians and other minorities, is corrupt at all levels of government, and is rife with vigilantism - is the creation of a Palestinian state a favorite "liberal" cause?
8) Why - after Yasser Arafat has proven for 40 years to be one of history's most incorrigible terrorists, while loyally backing dictators like Saddam Hussein - does the European Union still strongly support Arafat's leadership?
9) Why does the media call it "terror" when Al Qaida strikes at Western targets, but not when Hamas strikes at Israelis (or even American citizens in Israel)?
10) If the Palestinians truly want peace, why do their school textbooks vilify Israel and glorify suicide bombers? Why does the government-controlled TV station broadcast virulent anti-Semitic messages? Why do mosques regularly incite followers to jihad? Why are (UN supported) children's paramilitary training camps - masquerading as summer camps - named in honor of the most "successful" Palestinian terrorists (an indoctrination process that has resulted in 60-80% support for suicide bombings)?
11) Why does the world call the West Bank "occupied" if it never belonged to the Palestinians? [Jordan controlled the West Bank for 19 years after conquering it in a war of aggression. It previously belonged to the Mamelukes, the Crusaders, the Ottoman Turks, and then Britain.]
12) What other country would give control of its holiest spot (the Temple Mount) to another religion (which arrived 1,500 years later), and then permit them to systematically destroy ancient remains (to eliminate evidence of a 3,000-year-old Jewish presence) and allow that religious body to prohibit access to non-Muslims for three years?
13) Why does anyone doubt Israel's sincerity for peace, after offering 97 percent of the West Bank and Gaza in the Taba Talks in 2001, and having given back the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt - a territory three times the size of Israel constituting 91 percent of the territory Israel took control of in the 1967 war?
14) Why does the world demand the uprooting of Jewish settlements - effectively making those areas "Judenrein" (empty of Jews)? Would anyone tolerate a similar form of ethnic cleansing whereby Israel does not allow Arabs to live in areas under Israeli control?
15) If, during Oslo, Israel gave tens of thousands of machine guns and 40% of the West Bank and Gaza to the Palestinians (giving them control over 97% of their population), in return for the promise that "all future disputes would be handled without violence," and instead Israel got 18,000 terrorist attacks that killed 845 and wounded 4,898 people, a collapsed economy, intolerable daily life for its citizens, and its holy sites desecrated, why is Israel again being asked to negotiate with that same Palestinian leadership, trust their future promises, and place its security in their hands?
1) If Palestinians want to live side-by-side with Israel, then why do all their government logos and websites show Palestine encompassing all of Israel, with Israel nonexistent?
2) If a primary point of the road map is "confronting all those engaged in terror and dismantlement of terrorist capabilities and infrastructure," then why do the Palestinians demand that Israel release thousands of terrorists from prison, an item not even included in the road map? Instead, shouldn't the Palestinians be arresting terrorists themselves? And shouldn't we be outraged that the two suicide bombers who murdered 15 Israelis on Sept. 9, 2003 (Hillel Cafe and Tzrifin bus stop) were among a group of Palestinian prisoners released by Israel this year?
3) If Israel is supposedly allowed to "take all necessary steps to defend its citizens," then why is Israel condemned for building bypass roads so drivers can avoid ambushes, condemned for building a fence to keep suicide bombers out, condemned for targeted killings of terrorist leaders, condemned for operating road blocks to screen for suicide bombers, condemned for clearing areas used for launching rockets, and condemned for keeping terrorists in jail? How exactly is Israel expected to defend itself?
4) When the PLO first demanded a state in 1964, it wanted every part of Israel except the West Bank and Gaza (which were then in the hands of Jordan and Egypt). Is it reasonable to assume that they now want only the West Bank and Gaza, or is that more likely a Trojan Horse - as Palestinian leader Faisal al-Husseini described it in 2001, as a first step to destroy Israel?
5) Why is the targeted killing of terrorists and their supporters lauded when done by the United States in Iraq, but not when done by Israel whose civilians face a daily threat of terror attacks?
6) Why has the United Nations passed far more condemnations against Israel than any other country - including Iraq, Iran, Sudan, Chechnya, Saudi Arabia, Liberia, North Korea, and China combined - while millions were massacred in these other places? And then how does the UN expect Israel to accept it as an impartial mediator?
7) Why - if the Palestinian Authority has little freedom of speech and freedom of the press, little religious tolerance, is oppressive of Christians and other minorities, is corrupt at all levels of government, and is rife with vigilantism - is the creation of a Palestinian state a favorite "liberal" cause?
8) Why - after Yasser Arafat has proven for 40 years to be one of history's most incorrigible terrorists, while loyally backing dictators like Saddam Hussein - does the European Union still strongly support Arafat's leadership?
9) Why does the media call it "terror" when Al Qaida strikes at Western targets, but not when Hamas strikes at Israelis (or even American citizens in Israel)?
10) If the Palestinians truly want peace, why do their school textbooks vilify Israel and glorify suicide bombers? Why does the government-controlled TV station broadcast virulent anti-Semitic messages? Why do mosques regularly incite followers to jihad? Why are (UN supported) children's paramilitary training camps - masquerading as summer camps - named in honor of the most "successful" Palestinian terrorists (an indoctrination process that has resulted in 60-80% support for suicide bombings)?
11) Why does the world call the West Bank "occupied" if it never belonged to the Palestinians? [Jordan controlled the West Bank for 19 years after conquering it in a war of aggression. It previously belonged to the Mamelukes, the Crusaders, the Ottoman Turks, and then Britain.]
12) What other country would give control of its holiest spot (the Temple Mount) to another religion (which arrived 1,500 years later), and then permit them to systematically destroy ancient remains (to eliminate evidence of a 3,000-year-old Jewish presence) and allow that religious body to prohibit access to non-Muslims for three years?
13) Why does anyone doubt Israel's sincerity for peace, after offering 97 percent of the West Bank and Gaza in the Taba Talks in 2001, and having given back the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt - a territory three times the size of Israel constituting 91 percent of the territory Israel took control of in the 1967 war?
14) Why does the world demand the uprooting of Jewish settlements - effectively making those areas "Judenrein" (empty of Jews)? Would anyone tolerate a similar form of ethnic cleansing whereby Israel does not allow Arabs to live in areas under Israeli control?
15) If, during Oslo, Israel gave tens of thousands of machine guns and 40% of the West Bank and Gaza to the Palestinians (giving them control over 97% of their population), in return for the promise that "all future disputes would be handled without violence," and instead Israel got 18,000 terrorist attacks that killed 845 and wounded 4,898 people, a collapsed economy, intolerable daily life for its citizens, and its holy sites desecrated, why is Israel again being asked to negotiate with that same Palestinian leadership, trust their future promises, and place its security in their hands?
Nessie, I'm afraid Israel/Zionists do control the US foreign policy and even more in the US. I'm not a neo-nazi by any stretch of the imagination, and I believe that ISRAEL and the neo-conservativies and the Zionist Jewish White Supremacists dominate America right now. They are at their zenith of power, here in the US. Don't delude yourself. Many other non-neo-nazis agree with me. Just for a few examples from across the spectrum of religious and political affiliations: Pat Buchanan (right), Jeffrey Blankfort (left & non-zionist Jew), the Neturei Karta (Ultra Orthodox Jews http://www.nkusa.org), author Kevin MacDonald (Libertarian), and many, many more. Get off your foolish "Israel is an aircraft carrier for the US" schitck. It doesn't hold water. It sunk a long time ago, if it ever even floated.
Don't tell me you haven't read how Sharon and other Israeli leaders are quoted as saying "Don't worry about what the U.S. says! We own them!" many times in many ways they have been quoted as saying things along these lines. Sharon and his colleagues may not be neo-nazis but they ARE Zionazis. If it walks and quacks like a duck it is a duck.
"You reading comprehension is abysmal. Go back to school."
Then why do you talk about Zionists rather than Capitalists? Why is the talk on here always about Zionists controlling the media rather than Capitalists controlling the media?
Its not the opposite from the neoNazi message its exactly the same but with a different motivation. When people on here talk about evil Zionists with fangs pulling strings in the US, they mean groups in the US that support Israel. When Nazis talk about ZOG they pretty much mean the same thing. There are some differences but its moving more and more in the direction of the same conspiracy theory. The use of "Zionist" after 9/11 seems to have started in the English press around the time David Duke started posting to Arabic news wires and some US Indymedia sites (which rightfully hid the posts quickly). Neonazis know that if conspiracies about Zionists become mainstreamed it makes convincing average Americans about ZOG much easier.
What gets me most is that when anarchists start doing this its completely counterproductive to the anarchist message. Instead of blaming Capitalism for the medias bias, now people blame Zionists. Instead of blaming US corporations for US policy in the Middle East, people blame Zionists and the Jewish lobby in the US. Sure people go back and forth and try to somehow equate the words Zionist and Capitalist but the meaning of the words is obviously different (to some people who like to twist words meanings Zionism has no connection with Judaism but for most people a crowd of white people chanting "Death to Zionists" would probably be seen as a KKK rally) .
Then why do you talk about Zionists rather than Capitalists? Why is the talk on here always about Zionists controlling the media rather than Capitalists controlling the media?
Its not the opposite from the neoNazi message its exactly the same but with a different motivation. When people on here talk about evil Zionists with fangs pulling strings in the US, they mean groups in the US that support Israel. When Nazis talk about ZOG they pretty much mean the same thing. There are some differences but its moving more and more in the direction of the same conspiracy theory. The use of "Zionist" after 9/11 seems to have started in the English press around the time David Duke started posting to Arabic news wires and some US Indymedia sites (which rightfully hid the posts quickly). Neonazis know that if conspiracies about Zionists become mainstreamed it makes convincing average Americans about ZOG much easier.
What gets me most is that when anarchists start doing this its completely counterproductive to the anarchist message. Instead of blaming Capitalism for the medias bias, now people blame Zionists. Instead of blaming US corporations for US policy in the Middle East, people blame Zionists and the Jewish lobby in the US. Sure people go back and forth and try to somehow equate the words Zionist and Capitalist but the meaning of the words is obviously different (to some people who like to twist words meanings Zionism has no connection with Judaism but for most people a crowd of white people chanting "Death to Zionists" would probably be seen as a KKK rally) .
Picking on Duke is like Sharon blaming everything on Arafat, or the neo-Conservatives blaming everything on Saddam Hussein, or lefties blaming everything on Bush. There's a MUCH bigger picture. Duke is marginalized. Don't kid yourself! The fact is that the NeoCons are having their dog days now! They ARE at the zenith of their power, and hopefully it's all downhill now that the cat is out of the bag for them. Don't be the typical leftist who just can't get past the Jewish victimhood thing--- not all Jews are or have been innocent. Read your history. That does not justify the Holocaust, but lefties must not have two sets of standards for Jews (especially not for the Zionists) and the rest of the world. The Neturei Karta Jews (http://www.nkusa.org) are more progressive than any leftie Jew ever was. Capitalism is not bad when tempered with socialism and democratic values. Money is not bad in and of itself, but it's how it's used.
Most or many of the "global elite" are Zionist Jews... again, about half of the world's billionaires are Jews... that's not a "tiny minority".
And yes, they get their counterparts, some non-Jews who are equally beholden to the gods of war, greed and power, to go along with the program. Generally, Jews are more educated than the average non-Jew, as well as more affluent, so I don't buy your arguement that they are dupes. They are willing dupes to their Zionist leaders, in general, because all they generally really care about is "Is it good for the Jews?".
And yes, they get their counterparts, some non-Jews who are equally beholden to the gods of war, greed and power, to go along with the program. Generally, Jews are more educated than the average non-Jew, as well as more affluent, so I don't buy your arguement that they are dupes. They are willing dupes to their Zionist leaders, in general, because all they generally really care about is "Is it good for the Jews?".
Then why have so many marched so willingly into so obvious a death trap?
It's a mental illness of some sort, and a complete lack of true spirituality and lack of belief in The Golden Rule.
Also, it could be just their culture-- like the Aztecs, their bloody, ritualistic culture was self-destructive. So too is Zionism.
Also, it could be just their culture-- like the Aztecs, their bloody, ritualistic culture was self-destructive. So too is Zionism.
Dear Nessie,
Of course we Zionists use the Jewish people. We commit atrocities in their name, and use their suffering during the Holocaust to justify our crimes against the Palestinians. We have managed to convince many Jews and non-Jews alike that we are a Jewish movement. We may wear yarmulkes and beat our perverted brains against the sacred Wailing Wall and do many other things to convince the ignorant that we are Jews, but anyone who is aware of what Judaism is will never be fooled by our propaganda.
People like Uri Avnery are our greates enemies. Because they are Jews. Real Jews. And they know as well that our Zionist ideology has no place among either the Jewish, or any other peoples of this world.
That is why we depend on America for $3 billion a year in military and political support.
Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist
Of course we Zionists use the Jewish people. We commit atrocities in their name, and use their suffering during the Holocaust to justify our crimes against the Palestinians. We have managed to convince many Jews and non-Jews alike that we are a Jewish movement. We may wear yarmulkes and beat our perverted brains against the sacred Wailing Wall and do many other things to convince the ignorant that we are Jews, but anyone who is aware of what Judaism is will never be fooled by our propaganda.
People like Uri Avnery are our greates enemies. Because they are Jews. Real Jews. And they know as well that our Zionist ideology has no place among either the Jewish, or any other peoples of this world.
That is why we depend on America for $3 billion a year in military and political support.
Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist
there is NO Jewish conspiracy just as there is no white consiracy.
some classic antisemite mentioned that half of the worlds wealth is in Jewish hands. Forget about the fact that this statistic is out of sync with present day reality but the fact that many of them are white christians does not make the capitalist agenda a male and white conspiracy.
the conspiracy against the average People is alive and cicking however it is niether white or faith based, it is alien in nature
some classic antisemite mentioned that half of the worlds wealth is in Jewish hands. Forget about the fact that this statistic is out of sync with present day reality but the fact that many of them are white christians does not make the capitalist agenda a male and white conspiracy.
the conspiracy against the average People is alive and cicking however it is niether white or faith based, it is alien in nature
"Most or many of the "global elite" are Zionist Jews... "
Could someone please hide the neoNazi posts to this site. I shouldnt have to show that this stuff is just neoNazi shit but here is at least some proof:
The top ten richest Americans
1. Gates, William H III
2. Buffett, Warren Edward
3. Allen, Paul Gardner
4. Walton, Helen R
5. Walton, S Robson
6. Walton, John T
7. Walton, Jim C
8. Walton, Alice L
9. Ellison, Lawrence Joseph
10. Ballmer, Steven Anthony
Worlds 100 Richest People
number in ranking / age / net worth / nationality
1 William H Gates III 47 40.7 United States
2 Warren E Buffett 72 30.5 United States
3 Karl & Theo Albrecht -- 25.6 Germany
4 Paul G Allen 50 20.1 United States
5 Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal Alsaud 46 17.7 Saudi Arabia
6 Lawrence J Ellison 58 16.6 United States
7 Alice L Walton 54 16.5 United States
7 Helen R Walton 83 16.5 United States
7 Jim C Walton 55 16.5 United States
7 John T Walton 57 16.5 United States
7 S Robson Walton 59 16.5 United States
12 Liliane Bettencourt 80 14.5 France
13 Kenneth Thomson & family 79 14.0 Canada
14 Ingvar Kamprad 76 13.0 Sweden
15 Birgit Rausing & family -- 12.9 Sweden
16 Steven A Ballmer 46 11.1 United States
17 John W Kluge 88 10.5 United States
18 Barbara Cox Anthony 79 10.3 United States
18 Anne Cox Chambers 83 10.3 United States
18 Amancio Ortega 67 10.3 Spain
21 Forrest E Mars Jr 71 10.0 United States
21 Jacqueline Mars 64 10.0 United States
21 John F Mars 66 10.0 United States
24 Michael Dell 38 9.8 United States
25 Abigail Johnson 41 8.2 United States
26 Mikhail B Khodorkovsky 39 8.0 Russia
26 Sumner M Redstone 79 8.0 United States
28 Li Ka-shing 74 7.8 Hong Kong
29 Donald E Newhouse 73 7.7 United States
29 Samuel I Newhouse Jr 75 7.7 United States
29 Hans Rausing 76 7.7 Sweden
32 Robert A Pritzker 76 7.6 United States
32 Thomas J Pritzker 52 7.6 United States
34 Gerald Cavendish Grosvenor 51 7.5 United Kingdom
35 Carlos Slim Helu 63 7.4 Mexico
36 Samuel C Johnson 74 7.3 United States
37 Nobutada Saji & family 57 7.1 Japan
38 George Soros 72 7.0 United States
39 Khaled, Hayat, Hutham, Lubna & Mary Olayan -- 6.9 Saudi Arabia
40 Bernard Arnault 54 6.7 France
40 Stefan Persson 55 6.7 Sweden
42 Walter, Thomas & Raymond Kwok -- 6.6 Hong Kong
43 Galen Weston & family 62 6.2 Canada
44 H Ty Warner 59 6.0 United States
45 Silvio Berlusconi 66 5.9 Italy
45 Charles Ergen 50 5.9 United States
45 Azim Premji 57 5.9 India
48 Carl Icahn 67 5.8 United States
49 Roman A Abramovich 36 5.7 Russia
49 Curt Engelhorn 76 5.7 Germany
49 Friedrich K Flick Jr 76 5.7 Germany
52 Leonardo Del Vecchio 67 5.6 Italy
52 August von Finck 72 5.6 Germany
54 Keith R Murdoch 72 5.5 United States
54 Rudolf August Oetker & family 86 5.5 Germany
54 Michael Otto & family 59 5.5 Germany
57 Susanne Klatten 41 5.3 Germany
58 Nasser Al-Kharafi & family 59 5.1 Kuwait
59 Pierre Landolt & family 55 5.0 Switzerland
59 Pierre M Omidyar 35 5.0 United States
59 Yasuo Takei & family 73 5.0 Japan
62 Philip F Anschutz 63 4.9 United States
63 Michael R Bloomberg 60 4.8 United States
64 Ernesto Bertarelli 37 4.7 Switzerland
65 Luciano Benetton & family 67 4.6 Italy
65 Marvin H Davis 77 4.6 United States
67 Alain & Gerard Wertheimer -- 4.5 France
68 Mikhail M Fridman 38 4.3 Russia
68 Lorenzo A Mendoza & family 37 4.3 Venezuela
68 Stefan Quandt 37 4.3 Germany
71 Philip H Knight 65 4.2 United States
72 Eitaro Itoyama 60 4.1 Japan
72 Fukuzo Iwasaki 78 4.1 Japan
72 Edward C Johnson III 72 4.1 United States
72 Karl-Heinz Kipp 79 4.1 Germany
72 Reinhard Mohn & family 81 4.1 Germany
72 Akira Mori 66 4.1 Japan
78 Donald L Bren 70 4.0 United States
78 Gustavo Cisneros & family 57 4.0 Venezuela
78 Charles D Koch 67 4.0 United States
78 David H Koch 62 4.0 United States
82 Eli Broad 69 3.9 United States
83 Rafik Al-Hariri & family 59 3.8 Lebanon
83 David Geffen 60 3.8 United States
83 Erivan Haub & family 70 3.8 Germany
83 Maria -Elisabeth & Georg Schaeffler -- 3.8 Germany
83 Dieter, Monika & Stefan von Holtzbrinck -- 3.8 Germany
88 Charlene L de Carvalho 48 3.7 Netherlands
88 Lee Shau Kee 75 3.7 Hong Kong
88 Henry Ross Perot 72 3.7 United States
88 Tsai Wan Lin 78 3.7 Taiwan
92 Antonia Johnson 59 3.6 Sweden
92 Joseph & Moise Safra -- 3.6 Brazil
94 Michele Ferrero 76 3.5 Italy
94 James, Arthur & John Irving -- 3.5 Canada
94 William Wrigley Jr 39 3.5 United States
97 Jeronimo Arango 77 3.4 Mexico
97 Kirk Kerkorian 85 3.4 United States
97 Robert Kuok 80 3.4 Malaysia
97 Johanna Quandt 75 3.4 Germany
http://www.forbes.com/2003/02/26/billionaireland.html---
I dont see many Jewish people on that list and nobody from Israel. There are, on the other hand, quite a few nonIsraeli Middle Eastern rulers and businessmen.I really doubt that even a majority on that list are proIsrael.
Could someone please hide the neoNazi posts to this site. I shouldnt have to show that this stuff is just neoNazi shit but here is at least some proof:
The top ten richest Americans
1. Gates, William H III
2. Buffett, Warren Edward
3. Allen, Paul Gardner
4. Walton, Helen R
5. Walton, S Robson
6. Walton, John T
7. Walton, Jim C
8. Walton, Alice L
9. Ellison, Lawrence Joseph
10. Ballmer, Steven Anthony
Worlds 100 Richest People
number in ranking / age / net worth / nationality
1 William H Gates III 47 40.7 United States
2 Warren E Buffett 72 30.5 United States
3 Karl & Theo Albrecht -- 25.6 Germany
4 Paul G Allen 50 20.1 United States
5 Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal Alsaud 46 17.7 Saudi Arabia
6 Lawrence J Ellison 58 16.6 United States
7 Alice L Walton 54 16.5 United States
7 Helen R Walton 83 16.5 United States
7 Jim C Walton 55 16.5 United States
7 John T Walton 57 16.5 United States
7 S Robson Walton 59 16.5 United States
12 Liliane Bettencourt 80 14.5 France
13 Kenneth Thomson & family 79 14.0 Canada
14 Ingvar Kamprad 76 13.0 Sweden
15 Birgit Rausing & family -- 12.9 Sweden
16 Steven A Ballmer 46 11.1 United States
17 John W Kluge 88 10.5 United States
18 Barbara Cox Anthony 79 10.3 United States
18 Anne Cox Chambers 83 10.3 United States
18 Amancio Ortega 67 10.3 Spain
21 Forrest E Mars Jr 71 10.0 United States
21 Jacqueline Mars 64 10.0 United States
21 John F Mars 66 10.0 United States
24 Michael Dell 38 9.8 United States
25 Abigail Johnson 41 8.2 United States
26 Mikhail B Khodorkovsky 39 8.0 Russia
26 Sumner M Redstone 79 8.0 United States
28 Li Ka-shing 74 7.8 Hong Kong
29 Donald E Newhouse 73 7.7 United States
29 Samuel I Newhouse Jr 75 7.7 United States
29 Hans Rausing 76 7.7 Sweden
32 Robert A Pritzker 76 7.6 United States
32 Thomas J Pritzker 52 7.6 United States
34 Gerald Cavendish Grosvenor 51 7.5 United Kingdom
35 Carlos Slim Helu 63 7.4 Mexico
36 Samuel C Johnson 74 7.3 United States
37 Nobutada Saji & family 57 7.1 Japan
38 George Soros 72 7.0 United States
39 Khaled, Hayat, Hutham, Lubna & Mary Olayan -- 6.9 Saudi Arabia
40 Bernard Arnault 54 6.7 France
40 Stefan Persson 55 6.7 Sweden
42 Walter, Thomas & Raymond Kwok -- 6.6 Hong Kong
43 Galen Weston & family 62 6.2 Canada
44 H Ty Warner 59 6.0 United States
45 Silvio Berlusconi 66 5.9 Italy
45 Charles Ergen 50 5.9 United States
45 Azim Premji 57 5.9 India
48 Carl Icahn 67 5.8 United States
49 Roman A Abramovich 36 5.7 Russia
49 Curt Engelhorn 76 5.7 Germany
49 Friedrich K Flick Jr 76 5.7 Germany
52 Leonardo Del Vecchio 67 5.6 Italy
52 August von Finck 72 5.6 Germany
54 Keith R Murdoch 72 5.5 United States
54 Rudolf August Oetker & family 86 5.5 Germany
54 Michael Otto & family 59 5.5 Germany
57 Susanne Klatten 41 5.3 Germany
58 Nasser Al-Kharafi & family 59 5.1 Kuwait
59 Pierre Landolt & family 55 5.0 Switzerland
59 Pierre M Omidyar 35 5.0 United States
59 Yasuo Takei & family 73 5.0 Japan
62 Philip F Anschutz 63 4.9 United States
63 Michael R Bloomberg 60 4.8 United States
64 Ernesto Bertarelli 37 4.7 Switzerland
65 Luciano Benetton & family 67 4.6 Italy
65 Marvin H Davis 77 4.6 United States
67 Alain & Gerard Wertheimer -- 4.5 France
68 Mikhail M Fridman 38 4.3 Russia
68 Lorenzo A Mendoza & family 37 4.3 Venezuela
68 Stefan Quandt 37 4.3 Germany
71 Philip H Knight 65 4.2 United States
72 Eitaro Itoyama 60 4.1 Japan
72 Fukuzo Iwasaki 78 4.1 Japan
72 Edward C Johnson III 72 4.1 United States
72 Karl-Heinz Kipp 79 4.1 Germany
72 Reinhard Mohn & family 81 4.1 Germany
72 Akira Mori 66 4.1 Japan
78 Donald L Bren 70 4.0 United States
78 Gustavo Cisneros & family 57 4.0 Venezuela
78 Charles D Koch 67 4.0 United States
78 David H Koch 62 4.0 United States
82 Eli Broad 69 3.9 United States
83 Rafik Al-Hariri & family 59 3.8 Lebanon
83 David Geffen 60 3.8 United States
83 Erivan Haub & family 70 3.8 Germany
83 Maria -Elisabeth & Georg Schaeffler -- 3.8 Germany
83 Dieter, Monika & Stefan von Holtzbrinck -- 3.8 Germany
88 Charlene L de Carvalho 48 3.7 Netherlands
88 Lee Shau Kee 75 3.7 Hong Kong
88 Henry Ross Perot 72 3.7 United States
88 Tsai Wan Lin 78 3.7 Taiwan
92 Antonia Johnson 59 3.6 Sweden
92 Joseph & Moise Safra -- 3.6 Brazil
94 Michele Ferrero 76 3.5 Italy
94 James, Arthur & John Irving -- 3.5 Canada
94 William Wrigley Jr 39 3.5 United States
97 Jeronimo Arango 77 3.4 Mexico
97 Kirk Kerkorian 85 3.4 United States
97 Robert Kuok 80 3.4 Malaysia
97 Johanna Quandt 75 3.4 Germany
http://www.forbes.com/2003/02/26/billionaireland.html---
I dont see many Jewish people on that list and nobody from Israel. There are, on the other hand, quite a few nonIsraeli Middle Eastern rulers and businessmen.I really doubt that even a majority on that list are proIsrael.
What a disgusting place this has turned into. Thread after thread is a discussion about (1) How jews are stupid and being used by "the zionists, (2) How when israeli jews die it's the fault of the jewish leaders, (3) How israel is wrong and jews have no right to have a jewish state, (4) How when jews die today it's because they stupidly fled antisemitic russia to form communities and build israel
Everyone here is either (1) being sarcastic and mocking jews who suffer from antisemitism past and present or (2) blaming jews and zionists for fooling jews into thinking jews should have their own state like every other nation of people on earth.
Take these IDENTICAL ARGUMENTS and just stick some anti-jew slurs (the "K" word) and you can stick this discussion right onto a neo-nazi site and it'll fit irgh tin.
Everyone here is either (1) being sarcastic and mocking jews who suffer from antisemitism past and present or (2) blaming jews and zionists for fooling jews into thinking jews should have their own state like every other nation of people on earth.
Take these IDENTICAL ARGUMENTS and just stick some anti-jew slurs (the "K" word) and you can stick this discussion right onto a neo-nazi site and it'll fit irgh tin.
Whilst your post above was not directed at my own wee self, I want to say how truly great it is to have you back however briefly!
Hope school is better than you expected, and I also hope it doesn't keep you off the board for lengthy periods of time.
Keep the faith, lad
Angie
Hey "PERPLEXED," did you read that on your favorite neo-nazi site or just make it up yourself?
Quite a collection of antisemites we have here.
I don't know who to attack first, the assholes who claim jews rule the world and hterefore are "never" victims anywhere, the assholes who claim jewish culture is generally violent, or the other assholes who aren't quite sure exactly what type of antisemites they want to be just yet.
I don't know who to attack first, the assholes who claim jews rule the world and hterefore are "never" victims anywhere, the assholes who claim jewish culture is generally violent, or the other assholes who aren't quite sure exactly what type of antisemites they want to be just yet.
PM: Muslims must return to the Prophet’s religion
BY WONG CHUN WAI
LONDON: Muslims must re-examine the Islam they practise as contradictory interpretations of the religion have divided its followers and led to various drawbacks, Prime Minister Datuk Seri Dr Mahathir Mohamad said.
“The Prophet brought us only one religion of Islam. Today there are hundreds of Islams. We have to go back to the one Islam brought by the Prophet,” he said.
He described Islam as still the perfect religion, saying that “it is the Muslims who are not perfect, who have allowed themselves to misinterpret Islam, to deviate from the teachings of Islam,” adding that the fundamentals of Islam were good.
“We must certainly re-examine the Islam that we practise. We have no need to reinvent it when facing the new challenges of today.
“But we must certainly correct the wrong interpretations of Islam if we are to overcome successfully the threats and humiliation that we face,” he said.
Dr Mahathir said this in his speech on Islam and the Ummah: Re-examining and Reinventing Ourselves in the Face of New Challenges at the School of Oriental and African Studies at the University of London yesterday.
He said there would be no conflict and war among Muslims if the fundamentals of Islam were adhered to.
“But we are hardly brothers to each other. We are ready to accuse each other of being apostates and we are ready to kill each other.
“Islam means peace. We wish peace upon each other. That is also fundamental to Islam. We only fight those who attack us, be they Muslims or non-Muslims.
“When the enemy sues for peace, Muslims must respond positively, but we are doing none of these fundamental things,” he added.
The Prime Minister said Muslims were labelled as terrorists, which “we don’t think is justified,” but “the fact is that we are killing people because of our anger, regardless of who we kill, regardless of the consequences.
“Admittedly, we are desperate and out-gunned and there is very little else we can do to defend ourselves against the injustice perpetrated against us, but should we just lash out indiscriminately, killing innocent people, including those who sympathise with us?
“Shouldn’t we stop to think, to plan and to strategise with ultimate victory as our goals?” he asked, saying the anger of Muslims had not assuaged but had increased.
Dr Mahathir also asked whether the life of a Muslim was Islamic, saying that “many of us believe that by Islamic way of life, we must wear certain dresses, keep a beard and cover our body.”
“But this is not everything as a way of life. We perform prayers, fast, pay the tithes and perform the haj.
“These are enjoined upon us together with our declaration of faith in Allah and his Prophet.”
He said that clothing “which is meant to cover the body is translated as the wearing of the Arab dress,” adding that other forms of dress, including the now universal coat and trousers which also covered the body, “are being regarded as being of no merit, unIslamic.”
“Reading to acquire knowledge is interpreted as reading to acquire Islamic religious knowledge only. Defence of the ummah is interpreted as veneration of the ancient weapons of war.”
On Muslim theologians, he said Muslims needed religious guidance so that there would be no straying from the prescribed path.
“For this, there must be Muslim scholars and teachers, but obviously not everyone has to be a Muslim scholaror teacher. If all are, then there would be no one to provide food, shelter and clothing.
“If that happens, then the community, including the ulamas, would be sinning because there is no one to provide for the non-spiritual needs of the community to enable the Islamic way of life to be lived.”
On the implementation of Islamic laws, Dr Mahathir said that “despite the Quranic injunction that when we judge, we must judge with justice, we still emphasise the importance of procedures and process, ignoring the injustice that it may cause.
“Thus, if a woman is raped and she lodges a complaint against the rapist, if she cannot produce four witnesses then she is guilty of false accusation and should be whipped.
“If later, she bears a child, then that is evidence of zina and should be punished by stoning to death.
“Obviously, this particular application of Islamic law ignores the injunction to judge with justice.
“But the orthodox remain adamant that the procedures must be adhered to even if they result in injustice. If anyone disagrees, then he is considered to be against Islamic law and condemned as an unbeliever in Islam.
“Clearly, the teaching of Islam is being wrongly interpreted. As a result, the good that is promised the believers has not manifested itself.”
Tracing the early civilisation of Islam, Dr Mahathir said its followers were ahead of the Europeans in many fields, such as agriculture, architecture, navigation and construction.
“Because of the extensive knowledge in all fields of learning and their consequent skills in the acquisition of wealth, in administration and in military defence, the Muslim civilisation thrived and grew, enabling the Muslims to live a way of life as prescribed by the Quran,” he said.
But later, varied interpretations of the Quran split the community and different sects emerged, resulting in fights with each other and “the situation now is not unlike the feuding of the Arab tribes in the pre-Islamic period.”
Muslims became more inward looking and neglected the development of their countries and they missed the Industrial Revolution.
“The number of great mathematicians, scientists, physicians, navigators, astronomers in the Muslim world began to diminish when the ulamas and the Muslim jurists gained power and influence in Muslim Spain.
“Soon the Muslims lost their lead in those fields of learning which had contributed to the greatness of the Islamic civilisation.”
Dr Mahathir urged Muslims to return to the fundamentals of Islam, saying the “the problem is that Muslims tend to emphasise and venerate the form rather than the substance in the practice of everything.”
“Even in modernisation, they look for the form.”
He urged Muslims to correct the wrong interpretations of Islam “if we are to overcome successfully the threats and humilation that we face.”
BY WONG CHUN WAI
LONDON: Muslims must re-examine the Islam they practise as contradictory interpretations of the religion have divided its followers and led to various drawbacks, Prime Minister Datuk Seri Dr Mahathir Mohamad said.
“The Prophet brought us only one religion of Islam. Today there are hundreds of Islams. We have to go back to the one Islam brought by the Prophet,” he said.
He described Islam as still the perfect religion, saying that “it is the Muslims who are not perfect, who have allowed themselves to misinterpret Islam, to deviate from the teachings of Islam,” adding that the fundamentals of Islam were good.
“We must certainly re-examine the Islam that we practise. We have no need to reinvent it when facing the new challenges of today.
“But we must certainly correct the wrong interpretations of Islam if we are to overcome successfully the threats and humiliation that we face,” he said.
Dr Mahathir said this in his speech on Islam and the Ummah: Re-examining and Reinventing Ourselves in the Face of New Challenges at the School of Oriental and African Studies at the University of London yesterday.
He said there would be no conflict and war among Muslims if the fundamentals of Islam were adhered to.
“But we are hardly brothers to each other. We are ready to accuse each other of being apostates and we are ready to kill each other.
“Islam means peace. We wish peace upon each other. That is also fundamental to Islam. We only fight those who attack us, be they Muslims or non-Muslims.
“When the enemy sues for peace, Muslims must respond positively, but we are doing none of these fundamental things,” he added.
The Prime Minister said Muslims were labelled as terrorists, which “we don’t think is justified,” but “the fact is that we are killing people because of our anger, regardless of who we kill, regardless of the consequences.
“Admittedly, we are desperate and out-gunned and there is very little else we can do to defend ourselves against the injustice perpetrated against us, but should we just lash out indiscriminately, killing innocent people, including those who sympathise with us?
“Shouldn’t we stop to think, to plan and to strategise with ultimate victory as our goals?” he asked, saying the anger of Muslims had not assuaged but had increased.
Dr Mahathir also asked whether the life of a Muslim was Islamic, saying that “many of us believe that by Islamic way of life, we must wear certain dresses, keep a beard and cover our body.”
“But this is not everything as a way of life. We perform prayers, fast, pay the tithes and perform the haj.
“These are enjoined upon us together with our declaration of faith in Allah and his Prophet.”
He said that clothing “which is meant to cover the body is translated as the wearing of the Arab dress,” adding that other forms of dress, including the now universal coat and trousers which also covered the body, “are being regarded as being of no merit, unIslamic.”
“Reading to acquire knowledge is interpreted as reading to acquire Islamic religious knowledge only. Defence of the ummah is interpreted as veneration of the ancient weapons of war.”
On Muslim theologians, he said Muslims needed religious guidance so that there would be no straying from the prescribed path.
“For this, there must be Muslim scholars and teachers, but obviously not everyone has to be a Muslim scholaror teacher. If all are, then there would be no one to provide food, shelter and clothing.
“If that happens, then the community, including the ulamas, would be sinning because there is no one to provide for the non-spiritual needs of the community to enable the Islamic way of life to be lived.”
On the implementation of Islamic laws, Dr Mahathir said that “despite the Quranic injunction that when we judge, we must judge with justice, we still emphasise the importance of procedures and process, ignoring the injustice that it may cause.
“Thus, if a woman is raped and she lodges a complaint against the rapist, if she cannot produce four witnesses then she is guilty of false accusation and should be whipped.
“If later, she bears a child, then that is evidence of zina and should be punished by stoning to death.
“Obviously, this particular application of Islamic law ignores the injunction to judge with justice.
“But the orthodox remain adamant that the procedures must be adhered to even if they result in injustice. If anyone disagrees, then he is considered to be against Islamic law and condemned as an unbeliever in Islam.
“Clearly, the teaching of Islam is being wrongly interpreted. As a result, the good that is promised the believers has not manifested itself.”
Tracing the early civilisation of Islam, Dr Mahathir said its followers were ahead of the Europeans in many fields, such as agriculture, architecture, navigation and construction.
“Because of the extensive knowledge in all fields of learning and their consequent skills in the acquisition of wealth, in administration and in military defence, the Muslim civilisation thrived and grew, enabling the Muslims to live a way of life as prescribed by the Quran,” he said.
But later, varied interpretations of the Quran split the community and different sects emerged, resulting in fights with each other and “the situation now is not unlike the feuding of the Arab tribes in the pre-Islamic period.”
Muslims became more inward looking and neglected the development of their countries and they missed the Industrial Revolution.
“The number of great mathematicians, scientists, physicians, navigators, astronomers in the Muslim world began to diminish when the ulamas and the Muslim jurists gained power and influence in Muslim Spain.
“Soon the Muslims lost their lead in those fields of learning which had contributed to the greatness of the Islamic civilisation.”
Dr Mahathir urged Muslims to return to the fundamentals of Islam, saying the “the problem is that Muslims tend to emphasise and venerate the form rather than the substance in the practice of everything.”
“Even in modernisation, they look for the form.”
He urged Muslims to correct the wrong interpretations of Islam “if we are to overcome successfully the threats and humilation that we face.”
For more information:
http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=...
"The Neturei Karta Jews are more progressive than any leftie Jew ever was. "
Neturei Karta really is antiZionist in the true meaning of that term; unlike antiSemetic antiZionist posts on this site. Neturei Karta believe that Jews can only return to Israel with Elijah comes. People should oppose Isreal's treatment of Palestinians for reasons of justice and peace not for crazy religious reasons.
Why is it so hard for people to focus on Israel as an issue of human rights? Why does any discussion always degenerate into conspiracies, talk of strange religious sects etc... Palestinians dont have rights because of the inability for people to organize around Palestine without becoming creepy.
Neturei Karta really is antiZionist in the true meaning of that term; unlike antiSemetic antiZionist posts on this site. Neturei Karta believe that Jews can only return to Israel with Elijah comes. People should oppose Isreal's treatment of Palestinians for reasons of justice and peace not for crazy religious reasons.
Why is it so hard for people to focus on Israel as an issue of human rights? Why does any discussion always degenerate into conspiracies, talk of strange religious sects etc... Palestinians dont have rights because of the inability for people to organize around Palestine without becoming creepy.
Of course I accuse the Zionists of using the Jewish people. I accuse them of committing atrocities in their name, and use their suffering during the Holocaust to justify my anti-Semitism which I cloack as anti-Zionism. I have a problem with the fact that Zionism is basically a Jewish movement. Many Zionist Jews are religious and wear yarmulkes and I have the temerity to depict them as beating their perverted brains against the sacred Wailing Wall and doing many other things to convince the ignorant that we are Jews, even though I know they are Jews. Anyone who is aware of what Judaism is will never be fooled by my propaganda.
Jews like Uri Avnery are fanatic anti-Zionists, like Neturei Karta. I use the fact they are Jews as far as Jewish law is concerned to claim Zionist Jews are not real Jews. Just because anti-Zionist Jews agree with my argument that the Zionist ideology has no place among either the Jewish, or any other peoples of this world, I think my argument is right. But Alas, it is not.
I have a problem with Israel depending on America for $2.7 billion a year in military and economic support and the additional political support it receives, but I never complain about the $2.5 billion a year Egypt receives, and the other God-knows-how-many billions other Arab countries receive in aid along with American political support.
Heil Hitler!
- A concerned Zionist
Jews like Uri Avnery are fanatic anti-Zionists, like Neturei Karta. I use the fact they are Jews as far as Jewish law is concerned to claim Zionist Jews are not real Jews. Just because anti-Zionist Jews agree with my argument that the Zionist ideology has no place among either the Jewish, or any other peoples of this world, I think my argument is right. But Alas, it is not.
I have a problem with Israel depending on America for $2.7 billion a year in military and economic support and the additional political support it receives, but I never complain about the $2.5 billion a year Egypt receives, and the other God-knows-how-many billions other Arab countries receive in aid along with American political support.
Heil Hitler!
- A concerned Zionist
Looks like some Zionist is copying "A concerned Zionist."
What's new. When you can't beat them, pose as them. That seems to be the Zionist way.
Anyway, Egypt, a poor country which has a population of 60 million receives less then $2 billion a year.
Israel, which is a relatively rich country, and which has a population of 6 million (4.8 million Jews and 1.2 million Palestinians who are treated as second class citizens and who don't see a penny of that aid) received well over $12 billion this year alone ($3 billion in the usual aid + $9 billion in loan guarantees which don't have to be repaid so they are actually gifts + other unofficially acknowledged aid like citizen and corporate tax-deductible donations as though Isreal were a non-profit charity).
And, no. Other Arab countries don't get billions in aid. Certainly, Iraq is currently being deskilled and robbed (the $12 billion it had in the UN from the "Oil for food program" is not being used for the people of Iraq now).
Saudi Arabia has always been robbed by the US using its corrupt "leaders" to funnel money from their people to the US treasury through wealth transfers like arms sales. In fact, that is the only reason the very few oil shieks (whom no one likes, especially Arabs) are allowed to emass such wealth. Because they rob their people in the process.
The bottom line is, Israel receives more aid from us than any other country on earth all the while the Arab people of the Middle East are robbed blind by the US and Britain.
What's new. When you can't beat them, pose as them. That seems to be the Zionist way.
Anyway, Egypt, a poor country which has a population of 60 million receives less then $2 billion a year.
Israel, which is a relatively rich country, and which has a population of 6 million (4.8 million Jews and 1.2 million Palestinians who are treated as second class citizens and who don't see a penny of that aid) received well over $12 billion this year alone ($3 billion in the usual aid + $9 billion in loan guarantees which don't have to be repaid so they are actually gifts + other unofficially acknowledged aid like citizen and corporate tax-deductible donations as though Isreal were a non-profit charity).
And, no. Other Arab countries don't get billions in aid. Certainly, Iraq is currently being deskilled and robbed (the $12 billion it had in the UN from the "Oil for food program" is not being used for the people of Iraq now).
Saudi Arabia has always been robbed by the US using its corrupt "leaders" to funnel money from their people to the US treasury through wealth transfers like arms sales. In fact, that is the only reason the very few oil shieks (whom no one likes, especially Arabs) are allowed to emass such wealth. Because they rob their people in the process.
The bottom line is, Israel receives more aid from us than any other country on earth all the while the Arab people of the Middle East are robbed blind by the US and Britain.
that anti-Zionist and anti-Semitic asshole who impersonates a Zionist to malign real Zionist.
Egypt actually receives $2 billion a year, NOT LESS (scroll down to the middle on http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A40473-2001Oct10¬Found=true) although it isn't nearly as friendly toward and cooperative with the US as Israel is.
Arab countries do get billions in US aid. The U.S. has given Egypt $117 billion and Jordan $22 billion.
I don't even wish to respond to the charge that Iraq is being rob. It's just ludicrous.
Egypt actually receives $2 billion a year, NOT LESS (scroll down to the middle on http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A40473-2001Oct10¬Found=true) although it isn't nearly as friendly toward and cooperative with the US as Israel is.
Arab countries do get billions in US aid. The U.S. has given Egypt $117 billion and Jordan $22 billion.
I don't even wish to respond to the charge that Iraq is being rob. It's just ludicrous.
--"The U.S. has given Egypt $117 billion and Jordan $22 billion."
Ok. Site your source for this.
If you can't come up with something credible, I'll just assume you are a liar -- which is not unusual for Zionists, many of whom fabricate their own "facts" like they're going out of style.
Ok. Site your source for this.
If you can't come up with something credible, I'll just assume you are a liar -- which is not unusual for Zionists, many of whom fabricate their own "facts" like they're going out of style.
"What's new. When you can't beat them, pose as them. That seems to be the Zionist way."
Someone said that above. I just have to say that people who speak in this manner come off as FUCKING MORONIC IDIOTS. Have a good day.
Someone said that above. I just have to say that people who speak in this manner come off as FUCKING MORONIC IDIOTS. Have a good day.
Okay.
I found the source which says that Egypt has been given $117 billion and Jordan $22 billion since 1973.
"In addition, the US has given Egypt $117 billion and Jordan $22 billion in foreign aid in return for signing peace treaties with Israel."
The same article also states, however, that Israel received $240 Billion since 1973:
"...Israel has been given $240 billion since 1973..."
And it also states that when taking all aid into account, Israel has actually cost the US $1.6 Trillion (i.e. $1600 Billion)!
"Since 1973, Israel has cost the United States about $1.6 trillion. If divided by today's population, that is more than $5,700 per person."
I can see why you didn't want to post the link to that article. It revealed a few inconvenient statistics...
I found the source which says that Egypt has been given $117 billion and Jordan $22 billion since 1973.
"In addition, the US has given Egypt $117 billion and Jordan $22 billion in foreign aid in return for signing peace treaties with Israel."
The same article also states, however, that Israel received $240 Billion since 1973:
"...Israel has been given $240 billion since 1973..."
And it also states that when taking all aid into account, Israel has actually cost the US $1.6 Trillion (i.e. $1600 Billion)!
"Since 1973, Israel has cost the United States about $1.6 trillion. If divided by today's population, that is more than $5,700 per person."
I can see why you didn't want to post the link to that article. It revealed a few inconvenient statistics...
For more information:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1209/p16s01-...
1. I didn't post the MY source because it was a website the editors consider a "cesspit of lies" although it's in reality a fountain of truth.
2. I never tried to deny what Israel has actually gotten, so don't flatter yourself and your "anti-Zionist" cause on this account.
2. I never tried to deny what Israel has actually gotten, so don't flatter yourself and your "anti-Zionist" cause on this account.
Windy Wendy: "Go to Forbes, etc. yammity yammity yammity"
Been done already, Windy Wendy, in this very thread. Turns out your antisemitic fantasy didn't hold up under scrutiny.
@%<
Been done already, Windy Wendy, in this very thread. Turns out your antisemitic fantasy didn't hold up under scrutiny.
@%<
that anti-Zionist and anti-Semitic asshole who impersonates a Zionist to malign real Zionist.
- Which antisemitic asshole are you referring to? Benjamin Netanyahu? Ariel Sharon? They are a part of our Zionist family, and yes, Zionism is an antisemitic movement. We violate human rights, illegally occupy other countries, and then have the nerve to say that we are doing this for the benefit of the Jewish people. I can see how you hate antizionists, I want to bulldoze their homes too, believe me. Antizionists like Uri Avnery and Jews Against The Occupation and Jews for A Just Peace are especially dangerous, because they are real Jews, thus exposing our Zionist ideology for what it really is, an apartheid mentality.
Egypt actually receives $2 billion a year, NOT LESS (scroll down to the middle on http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A40473-2001Oct10¬Found=true) although it isn't nearly as friendly toward and cooperative with the US as Israel is.
-We Zionists don't need to be friendly to our American servants. They do our bidding, and gladly are ready to follow us into the pits of hell.
Arab countries do get billions in US aid. The U.S. has given Egypt $117 billion and Jordan $22 billion.
- How much did Israel receive during this time? Why is it that criticism of Egypt and Jordan is accepted in the states but criticism of Israel is condemned as 'antisemitism'?
I don't even wish to respond to the charge that Iraq is being rob. It's just ludicrous.
- Of course not. It's quite natural to be occupied by a foreign army that forces you to live in poverty while at the same time stealing your oil, water, and other natural resources. The Palestinians have been going through this type of hell ever since we Zionists invaded and occupied their homes.
I truly appreciate your strong sense of equality, dear 'anti idiot'. If we Zionists can do it, why can't our servants have a little fun as well, eh?
PS This post may be forged by a pathetic louse that can't create a single independent thought in its' little head. It will forge this post and then sign off under my name. This little critter has been following me for some while now, and needs a strong dose of bugspray. They just don't make mosquito repellent like they used to.
Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist
I was so busy planning to terrorize the Palestinians that I made a small glitch in the title. Silly me! I'll have to switch off my bulldozer when writing my posts.
that anti-Zionist and anti-Semitic asshole who impersonates a Zionist to malign real Zionist.
- Which antisemitic asshole are you referring to? Benjamin Netanyahu? Ariel Sharon? They are a part of our Zionist family, and yes, Zionism is an antisemitic movement. We violate human rights, illegally occupy other countries, and then have the nerve to say that we are doing this for the benefit of the Jewish people. I can see how you hate antizionists, I want to bulldoze their homes too, believe me. Antizionists like Uri Avnery and Jews Against The Occupation and Jews for A Just Peace are especially dangerous, because they are real Jews, thus exposing our Zionist ideology for what it really is, an apartheid mentality.
Egypt actually receives $2 billion a year, NOT LESS (scroll down to the middle on http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A40473-2001Oct10¬Found=true) although it isn't nearly as friendly toward and cooperative with the US as Israel is.
-We Zionists don't need to be friendly to our American servants. They do our bidding, and gladly are ready to follow us into the pits of hell.
Arab countries do get billions in US aid. The U.S. has given Egypt $117 billion and Jordan $22 billion.
- How much did Israel receive during this time? Why is it that criticism of Egypt and Jordan is accepted in the states but criticism of Israel is condemned as 'antisemitism'?
I don't even wish to respond to the charge that Iraq is being rob. It's just ludicrous.
- Of course not. It's quite natural to be occupied by a foreign army that forces you to live in poverty while at the same time stealing your oil, water, and other natural resources. The Palestinians have been going through this type of hell ever since we Zionists invaded and occupied their homes.
I truly appreciate your strong sense of equality, dear 'anti idiot'. If we Zionists can do it, why can't our servants have a little fun as well, eh?
PS This post may be forged by a pathetic louse that can't create a single independent thought in its' little head. It will forge this post and then sign off under my name. This little critter has been following me for some while now, and needs a strong dose of bugspray. They just don't make mosquito repellent like they used to.
Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist
I was so busy planning to terrorize the Palestinians that I made a small glitch in the title. Silly me! I'll have to switch off my bulldozer when writing my posts.
that anti-Zionist and anti-Semitic asshole who impersonates a Zionist to malign real Zionist.
- Which antisemitic asshole are you referring to? Benjamin Netanyahu? Ariel Sharon? They are a part of our Zionist family, and yes, Zionism is an antisemitic movement. We violate human rights, illegally occupy other countries, and then have the nerve to say that we are doing this for the benefit of the Jewish people. I can see how you hate antizionists, I want to bulldoze their homes too, believe me. Antizionists like Uri Avnery and Jews Against The Occupation and Jews for A Just Peace are especially dangerous, because they are real Jews, thus exposing our Zionist ideology for what it really is, an apartheid mentality.
Egypt actually receives $2 billion a year, NOT LESS (scroll down to the middle on http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A40473-2001Oct10¬Found=true) although it isn't nearly as friendly toward and cooperative with the US as Israel is.
-We Zionists don't need to be friendly to our American servants. They do our bidding, and gladly are ready to follow us into the pits of hell.
Arab countries do get billions in US aid. The U.S. has given Egypt $117 billion and Jordan $22 billion.
- How much did Israel receive during this time? Why is it that criticism of Egypt and Jordan is accepted in the states but criticism of Israel is condemned as 'antisemitism'?
I don't even wish to respond to the charge that Iraq is being rob. It's just ludicrous.
- Of course not. It's quite natural to be occupied by a foreign army that forces you to live in poverty while at the same time stealing your oil, water, and other natural resources. The Palestinians have been going through this type of hell ever since we Zionists invaded and occupied their homes.
I truly appreciate your strong sense of equality, dear 'anti idiot'. If we Zionists can do it, why can't our servants have a little fun as well, eh?
PS This post may be forged by a pathetic louse that can't create a single independent thought in its' little head. It will forge this post and then sign off under my name. This little critter has been following me for some while now, and needs a strong dose of bugspray. They just don't make mosquito repellent like they used to.
Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist
When all else fails to create an wee diversion from the serious and the accusatory, the learned and the frivilous, the argumentive and the agreeable, in barges "Hahaha" to ensure all is not lost in diplomacy.
Brief though his forays on to the Board may be (sometimes a mere line or two), he has shown an astonishing balance between nasty as in "f---g moronic idiots" to the oh, so pleasant "have a good day" (See above)
He deftly leaves his reader dashing from angry to conciliatory in a single sentence! No mean feat, that!
Now if I could only figure out why he seems to be forever running hither and yon. He dashes in, make a comment, and is gone in a flash of finality.
Aaah, who could possibly stay angry with the lad? On the other hand, who could possibly stay pleasant to him?
Is this what "even-handed" means, "O, Wise One"?
Brief though his forays on to the Board may be (sometimes a mere line or two), he has shown an astonishing balance between nasty as in "f---g moronic idiots" to the oh, so pleasant "have a good day" (See above)
He deftly leaves his reader dashing from angry to conciliatory in a single sentence! No mean feat, that!
Now if I could only figure out why he seems to be forever running hither and yon. He dashes in, make a comment, and is gone in a flash of finality.
Aaah, who could possibly stay angry with the lad? On the other hand, who could possibly stay pleasant to him?
Is this what "even-handed" means, "O, Wise One"?
What a truly magnificant "title" to your commentary above! Another great post! Will sit back and await the arrival of your "insect" follower to the board.
Angie
--"When Zionist Jews use their money to support the apartheid, racist state of Israel they are supporting genocide and murder."
Some of them do, most of them don't. Most Jews, whether rich, middle class, or poor don't give penny one to Israel. They're not that silly. They prefer to use our tax money for that...
What we need to concentrate on is ending our US taxpayer support for Israel in addition to the diplomatic cover we give it. After that, things will fall into place whether or not anyone (Jews or Christian Fundamentalists) give their money to that state.
And that will only happen by raising consciousness to the suffering of Palestinians currently and the injustices that have occurred against them historically.
Most people believe the mainstream racist views against Arabs which says that "the Arabs" attacked Israel, blah, blah, blah, even though there is plenty of evidence that it has been consistently the other way around.
In any case, focus less on Jews and focus more on our complicity...
Some of them do, most of them don't. Most Jews, whether rich, middle class, or poor don't give penny one to Israel. They're not that silly. They prefer to use our tax money for that...
What we need to concentrate on is ending our US taxpayer support for Israel in addition to the diplomatic cover we give it. After that, things will fall into place whether or not anyone (Jews or Christian Fundamentalists) give their money to that state.
And that will only happen by raising consciousness to the suffering of Palestinians currently and the injustices that have occurred against them historically.
Most people believe the mainstream racist views against Arabs which says that "the Arabs" attacked Israel, blah, blah, blah, even though there is plenty of evidence that it has been consistently the other way around.
In any case, focus less on Jews and focus more on our complicity...
How so you might ask is our complicity forced by Jews? Zionist Jews, that is? By all the powerful Zionist Jewish lobby groups, think-tanks, writiers, corporations etc. along with the fact that most American Jews do support the Zionist state of Israel and do not support equal rights for the Palestinians in their own homeland, including the Palestinian refugees right to return. More American Jews need to speak out loudly against Zionism and the racist, apartheid Israel in order to escape the pointing finger of blame for US foreign policy in the MidEast.
Windy Wendy: "How so you might ask is our complicity forced by Jews? Zionist Jews, that is?"
Don't you mean Ashkenazi White Japhethite Jews, Windy Wendy?
Don't be shy. Step out of that closet a little further.
@%<
Don't you mean Ashkenazi White Japhethite Jews, Windy Wendy?
Don't be shy. Step out of that closet a little further.
@%<
I was so busy planning to impersonate the zionists that I made a small glitch in the title. Silly me! I'll have to switch off my bulldozer when writing my posts.
that anti-Zionist and anti-Semitic asshole who impersonates a Zionist to malign real Zionists.
- Which antisemitic asshole are you referring to? "A concerned Zionist"? Windy Wendy? Angie? They are a part of our "anti-Zionist" family, and yes, nazi anti-Zionism is an antisemitic movement. We violate Jews' human rights, illegally bait Jewish communities, and then have the nerve to say that we are doing this for the benefit of humanity. I can see how you hate antizionists, I want to burn down their homes too, believe me. I think only Antizionists like Uri Avnery and Jews Against The Occupation and Jews for A Just Peace and Neturei Karta are the real Jews, thus exposing my moronic anti-Jewish ideology for what it really is, an rabidly racist mentality.
Egypt actually receives $2 billion a year, NOT LESS (scroll down to the middle on http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A40473-2001Oct10¬Found=true) although it isn't nearly as friendly toward and cooperative with the US as Israel is.
- I insist the Zionists don't need to be friendly to their American servants (see that? I am sure the Zionists are pulling making the Americans dance like marionettes. I maintain that they make the Americans do their bidding, and gladly are ready to follow them into the pits of hell.
Arab countries do get billions in US aid. The U.S. has given Egypt $117 billion and Jordan $22 billion.
- How much did Israel receive during this time? Why is it that criticism of Egypt and Jordan is accepted in the states but criticism of Israel is condemned as 'antisemitism'? I'll never fathom, as I have programmed myself to reject any explanation pointing to the antisemitism inherent in a particular criticism, even if the explanation is right. You see, I hold that there can only be antisemitism against Arabs or Neturei Karta or Uri Avneri and their likes.
I don't even wish to respond to the charge that Iraq is being rob. It's just ludicrous.
- Of course not. I've come to believe the situation the Iraqi people were in under Saddam was far preferable to their situation in the post-Saddam era. And I'm seizing the opportunity to change the subject to the Palestinian life conditions and hurl yet more stupid invective at the Zionists. Even the sufferings of the Iraqi people are the Zionists doing.
I truly appreciate your strong sense of equality, dear 'anti idiot'. If Zionists can do it, why can't I have a little fun as well, eh?
PS This post may be forged by a pathetic louse that can't create a single independent thought in its' little head. It will forge this post and then sign off under my name (ha! As if there's ever been a worse misnomer...). This little critter has been following me for a long while now, and needs a strong dose of mace. They just don't make mosquito repellent like they used to.
Heil Hitler!
- A concerned Zionist
that anti-Zionist and anti-Semitic asshole who impersonates a Zionist to malign real Zionists.
- Which antisemitic asshole are you referring to? "A concerned Zionist"? Windy Wendy? Angie? They are a part of our "anti-Zionist" family, and yes, nazi anti-Zionism is an antisemitic movement. We violate Jews' human rights, illegally bait Jewish communities, and then have the nerve to say that we are doing this for the benefit of humanity. I can see how you hate antizionists, I want to burn down their homes too, believe me. I think only Antizionists like Uri Avnery and Jews Against The Occupation and Jews for A Just Peace and Neturei Karta are the real Jews, thus exposing my moronic anti-Jewish ideology for what it really is, an rabidly racist mentality.
Egypt actually receives $2 billion a year, NOT LESS (scroll down to the middle on http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A40473-2001Oct10¬Found=true) although it isn't nearly as friendly toward and cooperative with the US as Israel is.
- I insist the Zionists don't need to be friendly to their American servants (see that? I am sure the Zionists are pulling making the Americans dance like marionettes. I maintain that they make the Americans do their bidding, and gladly are ready to follow them into the pits of hell.
Arab countries do get billions in US aid. The U.S. has given Egypt $117 billion and Jordan $22 billion.
- How much did Israel receive during this time? Why is it that criticism of Egypt and Jordan is accepted in the states but criticism of Israel is condemned as 'antisemitism'? I'll never fathom, as I have programmed myself to reject any explanation pointing to the antisemitism inherent in a particular criticism, even if the explanation is right. You see, I hold that there can only be antisemitism against Arabs or Neturei Karta or Uri Avneri and their likes.
I don't even wish to respond to the charge that Iraq is being rob. It's just ludicrous.
- Of course not. I've come to believe the situation the Iraqi people were in under Saddam was far preferable to their situation in the post-Saddam era. And I'm seizing the opportunity to change the subject to the Palestinian life conditions and hurl yet more stupid invective at the Zionists. Even the sufferings of the Iraqi people are the Zionists doing.
I truly appreciate your strong sense of equality, dear 'anti idiot'. If Zionists can do it, why can't I have a little fun as well, eh?
PS This post may be forged by a pathetic louse that can't create a single independent thought in its' little head. It will forge this post and then sign off under my name (ha! As if there's ever been a worse misnomer...). This little critter has been following me for a long while now, and needs a strong dose of mace. They just don't make mosquito repellent like they used to.
Heil Hitler!
- A concerned Zionist
I don't appreciate being listed in the title of your spiel, sir. Leave it.
Calling me "sir"?? How can you be so cold to me, Angie?
We're pals on this board, we share a common disdain for the Zionists, or did I miss something?
I mentioned your name also in my second paragraph... try to get some rest now, you need to replenish your energy reservoirs to help me bash the Zionists in a few more hours.
See you later.
We're pals on this board, we share a common disdain for the Zionists, or did I miss something?
I mentioned your name also in my second paragraph... try to get some rest now, you need to replenish your energy reservoirs to help me bash the Zionists in a few more hours.
See you later.
My friend is the "real" concerned zionist. So there!
Ahhhh (sigh).
What's going on with you this morning, my dearist friend?! It's me, the REAL 'A concerned Zionist'!
Please Angie, if you insist on staying up the whole night, at least brew yourself a mega strong coffee cup!
Heil Hitler!
- A concerned Zionist
What's going on with you this morning, my dearist friend?! It's me, the REAL 'A concerned Zionist'!
Please Angie, if you insist on staying up the whole night, at least brew yourself a mega strong coffee cup!
Heil Hitler!
- A concerned Zionist
My real "concerned zionist" never says "Heil Hitler". So there! So you are not him at all.
I, the REAL 'A concerned Zionist', always concludes with 'Heil Hitler!'. The faker goes 'Heil Sharon'.
Now Angie, stop playing this silly game and let's make up (well, as far as I'm concerned you're and always have been my friend come what may).
Heil Hitler!
- A concerned Zionist
Now Angie, stop playing this silly game and let's make up (well, as far as I'm concerned you're and always have been my friend come what may).
Heil Hitler!
- A concerned Zionist
The real "A Concerned Zionist" is basically an antisemite who pretends to be an anti-zionist who makes fun of zionists by making up absurd things and pretending it's what "the zionists" claim.
Basically, if you go to david duke's official website (or any neo-nazi site), and you take everything on "The jews" and you just change the word "jew" to "zionist" you get almost identical lies and dishonest exaggerations that are typically used to excessively demonize israel.
Seriously. Try it. Go to any white supremecist or neo-nazi site, change "jews" to "zionists" and you get the identical argument these so-called "anti-zionists" claim.
Valid criticism of Israel? Totally fine. Lots to say. Very easy to crap on israel's government, like most governments.
Absurd and excessive demonizing of every single aspect of zionism and israel? Tends to be the work of antisemites who are doing it because israel is run by jews.
Basically, if you go to david duke's official website (or any neo-nazi site), and you take everything on "The jews" and you just change the word "jew" to "zionist" you get almost identical lies and dishonest exaggerations that are typically used to excessively demonize israel.
Seriously. Try it. Go to any white supremecist or neo-nazi site, change "jews" to "zionists" and you get the identical argument these so-called "anti-zionists" claim.
Valid criticism of Israel? Totally fine. Lots to say. Very easy to crap on israel's government, like most governments.
Absurd and excessive demonizing of every single aspect of zionism and israel? Tends to be the work of antisemites who are doing it because israel is run by jews.
Hi Angie,
Glad to see you that the pathetic impersonator has not managed to fool you. He will keep on trying again and again, but that's what you can expect from a mosquito, it will keep on buzzing around until someone squashes it.
It will probably take advantage of the fact that I'm not around all the time to pull off more of its' pathetic attempts at deception, but no one with a brain really falls for its' immature attempts, so I can't say I'm too worried.
At the same time, a nice dose of bugspray would really be nice.
Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist
Glad to see you that the pathetic impersonator has not managed to fool you. He will keep on trying again and again, but that's what you can expect from a mosquito, it will keep on buzzing around until someone squashes it.
It will probably take advantage of the fact that I'm not around all the time to pull off more of its' pathetic attempts at deception, but no one with a brain really falls for its' immature attempts, so I can't say I'm too worried.
At the same time, a nice dose of bugspray would really be nice.
Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist
Hi Angie,
Glad to see you that the pathetic impersonator has not managed to fool you. He will keep on trying again and again, but that's what you can expect from an antisemitic rodent, it will keep on eating away at truth until someone squashes it.
It will probably take advantage of the fact that I'm not around all the time to pull off more of its pathetic attempts at deception, and no one with half the sense of a box of rocks really falls for its infantile antisemitic mockery of zionists by allegedly speaking for them, so I can't say I'm too worried.
At the same time, a nice dose of DDT would really be nice.
Now that you have replenished your batteries we can jointly start a "Zionist" bashing spree.
Heil Hitler!
- A concerned Zionist
Glad to see you that the pathetic impersonator has not managed to fool you. He will keep on trying again and again, but that's what you can expect from an antisemitic rodent, it will keep on eating away at truth until someone squashes it.
It will probably take advantage of the fact that I'm not around all the time to pull off more of its pathetic attempts at deception, and no one with half the sense of a box of rocks really falls for its infantile antisemitic mockery of zionists by allegedly speaking for them, so I can't say I'm too worried.
At the same time, a nice dose of DDT would really be nice.
Now that you have replenished your batteries we can jointly start a "Zionist" bashing spree.
Heil Hitler!
- A concerned Zionist
Yes, it really can't hurt to go to websites like David Duke's and try the assignment as stated above and substitute "Jews" for "Zionists". The unfortunate fact IS that not enough Jews DO seem to differentiate themselves from Zionists, so this exercise is rather moot. At any rate you might learn something, and see things from another point of view, some of which you may agree with some of which you may not. Remember, it is STILL a free country. We should be able to think for ourselves.
As for the claim of the instructor above that anti-Zionists just hate Israel because it is run by Jews... well, unfortunately, the Jews running Israel are committing ethnic cleansing against the indigenous non-Jewish Palestinians--- talk about hate-crimes... and we goyim are not supposed to notice that it's Jews killing the non-Jews in Palestine- Israel? Excuse me? Hello??
As for the claim of the instructor above that anti-Zionists just hate Israel because it is run by Jews... well, unfortunately, the Jews running Israel are committing ethnic cleansing against the indigenous non-Jewish Palestinians--- talk about hate-crimes... and we goyim are not supposed to notice that it's Jews killing the non-Jews in Palestine- Israel? Excuse me? Hello??
"the Jews running Israel are committing ethnic cleansing against the indigenous non-Jewish Palestinians--- talk about hate-crimes... and we goyim are not supposed to notice that it's Jews killing the non-Jews in Palestine- Israel? Excuse me? Hello??"
REPLY: you must quit being a teacher for you have made a mockery of the concept of ethnic cleansing, given what has and is really happening in the desputed territories in comparison to that concept's real meaning and real instances of ethnic cleansing worldwide. You must study the facts and ditch what you think the facts are.
You must also learn WHY Jews kill non-Jews in the disputed territories. It's very convenient for you to leave the reasons out, huh?
REPLY: you must quit being a teacher for you have made a mockery of the concept of ethnic cleansing, given what has and is really happening in the desputed territories in comparison to that concept's real meaning and real instances of ethnic cleansing worldwide. You must study the facts and ditch what you think the facts are.
You must also learn WHY Jews kill non-Jews in the disputed territories. It's very convenient for you to leave the reasons out, huh?
Where else can I sip my morning tea and read:
"The real "A Concerned Zionist" is basically an anti-semite who pretends to be an anti-zionist who makes fun of zionists by making up absurd things and pretending it's what the Zionists say".
Hehehe/hahaha. Help me up off the floor!
I never cease to be astonished here. Never! It's all so bloody predictable, isn't it, though? The moment someone with a brain makes a comment indicating he or she sees through all this garbage, out comes the old standby "anti-semite". Which is supposed to do what? Silence us and make us creep off the board with our heads touching the floor? Not a chance in hell, sir/madam.
Similarly, we're told that "valid criticism" of Israel is fine. No!!! You're jesting, yes? (Excuse me while I regain my breath after that great chuckle). Only one thing to say to that. No one ever defines "valid criticism". And "valid" according to whom?
As if it mattered. Israel is no more exempt from criticism than any other state.
Frankly, the real "A Concerned Zionist" brings to mind a line from Robert Burns, if I may paraphrase it here, and I will. Remember "if we could only see ourselves as others see us"?
Ye'ah, well, A Concerned Zionist does that quite well! He sees right through the crap that's sprouted on this board by you and your fellow hypocrites, and he does so with great ingenuinity. .
So save your "instructions" for someone who might be foolish enough to follow them.
"The real "A Concerned Zionist" is basically an anti-semite who pretends to be an anti-zionist who makes fun of zionists by making up absurd things and pretending it's what the Zionists say".
Hehehe/hahaha. Help me up off the floor!
I never cease to be astonished here. Never! It's all so bloody predictable, isn't it, though? The moment someone with a brain makes a comment indicating he or she sees through all this garbage, out comes the old standby "anti-semite". Which is supposed to do what? Silence us and make us creep off the board with our heads touching the floor? Not a chance in hell, sir/madam.
Similarly, we're told that "valid criticism" of Israel is fine. No!!! You're jesting, yes? (Excuse me while I regain my breath after that great chuckle). Only one thing to say to that. No one ever defines "valid criticism". And "valid" according to whom?
As if it mattered. Israel is no more exempt from criticism than any other state.
Frankly, the real "A Concerned Zionist" brings to mind a line from Robert Burns, if I may paraphrase it here, and I will. Remember "if we could only see ourselves as others see us"?
Ye'ah, well, A Concerned Zionist does that quite well! He sees right through the crap that's sprouted on this board by you and your fellow hypocrites, and he does so with great ingenuinity. .
So save your "instructions" for someone who might be foolish enough to follow them.
First of all, it's NOT "desputed" or even "disputed territories"... it's the Palestinian Territories! You dummy!
Now go to your corner and put on the dunce cap.
Now go to your corner and put on the dunce cap.
Dear teacher,
Please stop arguing with our propaganda that we feed you abd your kids everyday. Israel is perfect! We don't occupy Palestinian territory. We only move in, terrorize the people, steal the water and kill or maim or demonize whoever resists our imperialist occupation- only it's NOT an occupation! It's... it's... it's... well OK, it's occupation but if it is done by Zionists then it is obviously alright and you have no right to act against it! We will accuse you of antisemitism! Just like the antisemitic Jews in Neturei Karta and that fascist Uri Avnery! You don't want to be an antisemite, do you? I think not.
So stop pointing out the truth and working for justice in the Middle East! Did you know that if Angie asked for an audience with my financial supporter Izzy Asper, he would say no?!!! Did you know that she has been banned from the Israeli army AND the Knesset?!!!
Look at all the oppurtunities she has missed for being an antizionist and a human being! You don't want to be in the same boat, do you?!!! Do you?!!!
So stop this antizionist nonsense before we come after you in our bulldozers and label you an antisemite or a fascist or a communist or an anarchist or an anthropologist or some other big word that we are barely able to spell.
Take us seriously. We may be a bunch of clowns, but this time, we're not joking.
Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist
Please stop arguing with our propaganda that we feed you abd your kids everyday. Israel is perfect! We don't occupy Palestinian territory. We only move in, terrorize the people, steal the water and kill or maim or demonize whoever resists our imperialist occupation- only it's NOT an occupation! It's... it's... it's... well OK, it's occupation but if it is done by Zionists then it is obviously alright and you have no right to act against it! We will accuse you of antisemitism! Just like the antisemitic Jews in Neturei Karta and that fascist Uri Avnery! You don't want to be an antisemite, do you? I think not.
So stop pointing out the truth and working for justice in the Middle East! Did you know that if Angie asked for an audience with my financial supporter Izzy Asper, he would say no?!!! Did you know that she has been banned from the Israeli army AND the Knesset?!!!
Look at all the oppurtunities she has missed for being an antizionist and a human being! You don't want to be in the same boat, do you?!!! Do you?!!!
So stop this antizionist nonsense before we come after you in our bulldozers and label you an antisemite or a fascist or a communist or an anarchist or an anthropologist or some other big word that we are barely able to spell.
Take us seriously. We may be a bunch of clowns, but this time, we're not joking.
Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist
If American Middle East policy could be represented as an archeological dig, it would look something like this: the Zinni Mission would be resting atop the ruins of the Tenet Work Plan, which would be crushing the remains of the Mitchell Commission Report, which would be settled on remnants of the pillaged Sharm al Sheikh agreement, all of which would be weighing down the collapsed foundations of the shattered Oslo Accords.
If recent history is a reliable gauge, peacemaking produces more embarrassment than it does results, and only fosters the impression that the United States is helpless to have any meaningful impact on the Arab-Israeli conflict.
Only three weeks into the life of the latest initiative, the Bush administration's roadmap seems poised to join the historical ash heap. You didn't need to be Nostradamus to predict it. The contemptuousness of Hamas, the weakness of Abu Mazen, the brazen interference of Yasser Arafat and the raw hostility of the Palestinian street were all clear indicators of the impetuousness of any initiative that avoided dealing with the central issue of the Arab-Israeli conflict: the pan-Arab disinclination to recognize Israel's right to exist.
Unable to grasp this fundamental obstacle to peace, the Bush administration's Middle East policy has now become hostage to the kind of unrealistic expectations that churned Clinton's Middle East policies into mud and blinkered millions into believing that peace was just around the corner.
What is it then that caused the Bush administration to trundle down a road so ridden with pitfalls and cursed with the burned-out chasses of so many past vehicles of peace? It is, of course, a noble American tradition to campaign for peace between belligerents – harking back to the bold interventionism of both Theodore Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson.
Such idealism has always been based on the notion that the United States, free of Europe's historical baggage, could wield significant leverage in a world fraught with violence and conflict. Such slogans as "making the world safe for democracy" and the "new world order" gained currency and acceptance as distinctly American visions of a world in which violence and conflict would be contained.
But there are some violent conflicts in the world that simply do not lend themselves to resolution by either signatures or handshakes. The Arab-Israeli conflict is one of them. That is because there are no tangible, realistic exchanges that can be made between the two sides that would guarantee lasting peace. No exchange of territory, no compensation to refugees, no guarantee of statehood will quell the insistent Palestinian demand for Israel's extinction.
Such a wish is written in their covenant, broadcast daily in their newspaper editorials and promoted to their children in textbooks. It is contained in the speeches of their leaders and advertised on posters extolling the deeds of their homicide bombers. The voice of reason that George Bush hears in the moderate tone of Abu Mazen and considers representative of Palestinian aspirations is therefore an illusion. The real voice of the Palestinians, the voice that speaks to their deepest sentiments and nationalistic dreams, is the voice of Hamas.
As years of peace making in Europe once proved, the sine qua non for lasting peace is not the building of walls or the construction of national institutions of defense but mutual acceptance. Israel seems to have gone a long way toward accepting the Palestinian right to self-determination. Its prime-minister, for his own baffling reasons, has even accepted the eventuality of a Palestinian state.
But the absolute failure of Palestinian leaders to mouth anything other than meaningless platitudes about Israel's right to live in peace and security while doing nothing to prevent Palestinian murder of Israeli citizens leaves the Bush administration with little choice. The futile quest for reconciliation should be replaced with a pragmatic assessment that any significant change in outlook among Palestinians – no matter what the Israelis do, say or agree to – is unlikely. Ultimately, the focus of the administration's Middle East policy must shift from conflict resolution to conflict management.
What does this mean? Unequivocal support for the Israeli army's campaign to crush the terrorist networks; compliance in the need to eliminate or exile their leaders; cooperation in smothering their sources of funding. But it also means that the United States must face up to the reality that only years of Palestinian re-education and re-orientation toward peaceful coexistence will bring about a lasting change in relations between Arabs and Jews. Such a reality check, given the conviction among most Americans that all problems have a solution, is a bitter pill to swallow.
But better to swallow the pill than to spend many more fruitless years pretending that ruined policies – all piled on top of one another – create anything more than an impression of powerlessness and failure.
If recent history is a reliable gauge, peacemaking produces more embarrassment than it does results, and only fosters the impression that the United States is helpless to have any meaningful impact on the Arab-Israeli conflict.
Only three weeks into the life of the latest initiative, the Bush administration's roadmap seems poised to join the historical ash heap. You didn't need to be Nostradamus to predict it. The contemptuousness of Hamas, the weakness of Abu Mazen, the brazen interference of Yasser Arafat and the raw hostility of the Palestinian street were all clear indicators of the impetuousness of any initiative that avoided dealing with the central issue of the Arab-Israeli conflict: the pan-Arab disinclination to recognize Israel's right to exist.
Unable to grasp this fundamental obstacle to peace, the Bush administration's Middle East policy has now become hostage to the kind of unrealistic expectations that churned Clinton's Middle East policies into mud and blinkered millions into believing that peace was just around the corner.
What is it then that caused the Bush administration to trundle down a road so ridden with pitfalls and cursed with the burned-out chasses of so many past vehicles of peace? It is, of course, a noble American tradition to campaign for peace between belligerents – harking back to the bold interventionism of both Theodore Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson.
Such idealism has always been based on the notion that the United States, free of Europe's historical baggage, could wield significant leverage in a world fraught with violence and conflict. Such slogans as "making the world safe for democracy" and the "new world order" gained currency and acceptance as distinctly American visions of a world in which violence and conflict would be contained.
But there are some violent conflicts in the world that simply do not lend themselves to resolution by either signatures or handshakes. The Arab-Israeli conflict is one of them. That is because there are no tangible, realistic exchanges that can be made between the two sides that would guarantee lasting peace. No exchange of territory, no compensation to refugees, no guarantee of statehood will quell the insistent Palestinian demand for Israel's extinction.
Such a wish is written in their covenant, broadcast daily in their newspaper editorials and promoted to their children in textbooks. It is contained in the speeches of their leaders and advertised on posters extolling the deeds of their homicide bombers. The voice of reason that George Bush hears in the moderate tone of Abu Mazen and considers representative of Palestinian aspirations is therefore an illusion. The real voice of the Palestinians, the voice that speaks to their deepest sentiments and nationalistic dreams, is the voice of Hamas.
As years of peace making in Europe once proved, the sine qua non for lasting peace is not the building of walls or the construction of national institutions of defense but mutual acceptance. Israel seems to have gone a long way toward accepting the Palestinian right to self-determination. Its prime-minister, for his own baffling reasons, has even accepted the eventuality of a Palestinian state.
But the absolute failure of Palestinian leaders to mouth anything other than meaningless platitudes about Israel's right to live in peace and security while doing nothing to prevent Palestinian murder of Israeli citizens leaves the Bush administration with little choice. The futile quest for reconciliation should be replaced with a pragmatic assessment that any significant change in outlook among Palestinians – no matter what the Israelis do, say or agree to – is unlikely. Ultimately, the focus of the administration's Middle East policy must shift from conflict resolution to conflict management.
What does this mean? Unequivocal support for the Israeli army's campaign to crush the terrorist networks; compliance in the need to eliminate or exile their leaders; cooperation in smothering their sources of funding. But it also means that the United States must face up to the reality that only years of Palestinian re-education and re-orientation toward peaceful coexistence will bring about a lasting change in relations between Arabs and Jews. Such a reality check, given the conviction among most Americans that all problems have a solution, is a bitter pill to swallow.
But better to swallow the pill than to spend many more fruitless years pretending that ruined policies – all piled on top of one another – create anything more than an impression of powerlessness and failure.
angie, "a concerned zionist" says insane things that 99.9% of us "zionists" as you call us never say, and then mocks those insane things. YOu're amused by his stuff because you're a fucking moron.
"Zionists as you call us"? Who? Me?
To my knowledge the only time I use the phrase is when I am addressing "A Concerned Zionist" or talking about him. However, feel free to check out every thread I've written in. Who knows? I might have uttered the "Z" word in passing. Can't imagine why, though.
It, or any of the other labels used frequently here, is not in my vocab.
I like to think we're all just people with different points of view, which, of course, is what we are, isn't it?
I want a just and dignified peace for the Palestinian peoples. Does that make me an "Anti-Zionist"?
I also want a just and dignified peace for the conflicts in the rest of the world. What does that make me?
To my knowledge the only time I use the phrase is when I am addressing "A Concerned Zionist" or talking about him. However, feel free to check out every thread I've written in. Who knows? I might have uttered the "Z" word in passing. Can't imagine why, though.
It, or any of the other labels used frequently here, is not in my vocab.
I like to think we're all just people with different points of view, which, of course, is what we are, isn't it?
I want a just and dignified peace for the Palestinian peoples. Does that make me an "Anti-Zionist"?
I also want a just and dignified peace for the conflicts in the rest of the world. What does that make me?
Dear teacher,
Please stop arguing with our facts that sane people unlike myself provide you with everyday. Anti-Zionists are perfect! They are never being antisemitic. They only come on to the board, make straw man arguments, impersonate Zionists in the most ridiculous fashion and lie or behave in a puerile way or demonize whoever disagrees with any of their opinions- only it's NOT an childish! It's... it's... it's... well OK, it's childish but if it is done by anti-Zionists then it is obviously alright and you have no right to speak against it! We will accuse you of being nazi-like and antisemitic! Just like the antisemitic Jews in Neturei Karta and that pro-Palestinian fascism Uri Avnery! You yearn to be an overt antisemite, don't you? I think so!
So stop peddling lies and half-truths and trying to speak in the name of all goyim! Did you know that if Angie asked for an audience with my financial supporter Izzy Asper, he would say no?!!! Did you know that she has been banned from the Canadian army AND society?!!!
Look at all the opportunities she has missed for being an antizionist and a fucking moron and social recluse! You don't want to be in the same boat, do you?!!! Do you?!!!
So stop this 'antizionist' nonsense before my impostor falls all over you and you become as stupid as him and Angie or something else that most white supremacists are barely able to spell.
Don't underestimate the danger of fellows like Angie and my impostor. They certainly are a bunch of clowns and even this time they are joking.
Heil Hitler!
- A concerned Zionist
Please stop arguing with our facts that sane people unlike myself provide you with everyday. Anti-Zionists are perfect! They are never being antisemitic. They only come on to the board, make straw man arguments, impersonate Zionists in the most ridiculous fashion and lie or behave in a puerile way or demonize whoever disagrees with any of their opinions- only it's NOT an childish! It's... it's... it's... well OK, it's childish but if it is done by anti-Zionists then it is obviously alright and you have no right to speak against it! We will accuse you of being nazi-like and antisemitic! Just like the antisemitic Jews in Neturei Karta and that pro-Palestinian fascism Uri Avnery! You yearn to be an overt antisemite, don't you? I think so!
So stop peddling lies and half-truths and trying to speak in the name of all goyim! Did you know that if Angie asked for an audience with my financial supporter Izzy Asper, he would say no?!!! Did you know that she has been banned from the Canadian army AND society?!!!
Look at all the opportunities she has missed for being an antizionist and a fucking moron and social recluse! You don't want to be in the same boat, do you?!!! Do you?!!!
So stop this 'antizionist' nonsense before my impostor falls all over you and you become as stupid as him and Angie or something else that most white supremacists are barely able to spell.
Don't underestimate the danger of fellows like Angie and my impostor. They certainly are a bunch of clowns and even this time they are joking.
Heil Hitler!
- A concerned Zionist
Those territories may be called by many Palestinian territories, yet the fact remains they are DISPUTED as far as international law goes.
You are hereby deprived of your teacher status and sent back to school, you ignoramus.
You are hereby deprived of your teacher status and sent back to school, you ignoramus.
You must be the moron to think for a moment, EVEN A SECOND, that I would believe you were the "real" Concerned Zionist.
Bet you don't even know who Izzy Asper is. You're not even funny.
In fact, you're not even clever. You're.about as clever as a log floating down the river. In fact, not even that clever. At least the log knows where it's supposed to go.
Bet you don't even know who Izzy Asper is. You're not even funny.
In fact, you're not even clever. You're.about as clever as a log floating down the river. In fact, not even that clever. At least the log knows where it's supposed to go.
Notwithstanding your opinions of whether the impostor is clever or funny, you can't claim a log knows where it's supposed to go down a river. If you're sane and not someone with 5 IQ, that is.
A log is not a living creature; it has no mind of its own.
A log is not a living creature; it has no mind of its own.
Dear antibullshit,
You are so right, my friend. How could Angie think that a log has a mind of its' own?!!! Of course, neither logs or people who swallow and believe the lies fed to them by our Zionist-friendly media are capable of any real thought. And like a log that is directed by the current of the river, our media does the same to ensure a generation of unquestioning MacDonalds' eating, Nike wearing of citizens who will see ethnic cleansing and apartheid in a positive way, just like America and Israel do.
I personally don't think that people who we've successfully brainwashed are really logs. Boulders would, I believe, be much more appropriate.
Well, we Zionists must continue our mission of transforming people in Western societies into brainless objects, whether they happen to be logs or boulders or whatever else. Because if they are capable of independent thought, most of them will oppose the atrocities we commit.
Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist
You are so right, my friend. How could Angie think that a log has a mind of its' own?!!! Of course, neither logs or people who swallow and believe the lies fed to them by our Zionist-friendly media are capable of any real thought. And like a log that is directed by the current of the river, our media does the same to ensure a generation of unquestioning MacDonalds' eating, Nike wearing of citizens who will see ethnic cleansing and apartheid in a positive way, just like America and Israel do.
I personally don't think that people who we've successfully brainwashed are really logs. Boulders would, I believe, be much more appropriate.
Well, we Zionists must continue our mission of transforming people in Western societies into brainless objects, whether they happen to be logs or boulders or whatever else. Because if they are capable of independent thought, most of them will oppose the atrocities we commit.
Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist
"A log is not a living creature".
Right!
"It has no mind of its own".
I rest my case.
Right!
"It has no mind of its own".
I rest my case.
I see you beat me to it! My wee reply to the "anti" whoever above, that is. It's fun to realize, however, that we are of like minds here! A log, a rock, and all else besides. I used to call it "brainwashed". However, I thought log would be more apt!
Keep the faith, lad!
Keep the faith, lad!
Dear antibullshit,
You are so right, my friend. How could Angie think that a log has a mind of its' own?!!! Of course, neither logs or people who swallow and believe the lies fed to them by the mostly anti-Zionist-friendly media are capable of any real thought. And like a log that is directed by the current of the river, our media does the same to ensure a generation of unquestioning MacDonalds' eating, Nike wearing of citizens who will see Arab ethnic cleansing and apartheid in a positive way, just like American and non-American anti-Zionists do.
I personally don't think that people who we (the anti-Zionists) have successfully brainwashed are really logs. Boulders would, I believe, be much more appropriate.
Well, we fanatic anti-Zionists must continue our mission of transforming people in Western societies into brainless objects, whether they happen to be logs or boulders or whatever else. Because if they are capable of independent thought, most of them will oppose the atrocities our Palestinian and other Arab friends commit.
Heil Hitler!
- A concerned Zionist
You are so right, my friend. How could Angie think that a log has a mind of its' own?!!! Of course, neither logs or people who swallow and believe the lies fed to them by the mostly anti-Zionist-friendly media are capable of any real thought. And like a log that is directed by the current of the river, our media does the same to ensure a generation of unquestioning MacDonalds' eating, Nike wearing of citizens who will see Arab ethnic cleansing and apartheid in a positive way, just like American and non-American anti-Zionists do.
I personally don't think that people who we (the anti-Zionists) have successfully brainwashed are really logs. Boulders would, I believe, be much more appropriate.
Well, we fanatic anti-Zionists must continue our mission of transforming people in Western societies into brainless objects, whether they happen to be logs or boulders or whatever else. Because if they are capable of independent thought, most of them will oppose the atrocities our Palestinian and other Arab friends commit.
Heil Hitler!
- A concerned Zionist
Dear impersonator,
Some errors in your pathetic impersonation attempt.
Dear antibullshit,
You are so right, my friend. How could Angie think that a log has a mind of its' own?!!! Of course, neither logs or people who swallow and believe the lies fed to them by the mostly anti-Zionist-friendly media are capable of any real thought.
- Anti-Zionist friendly media? Which outlet? CNN? ABC? NBC? The American media is all proZionist, you stupid moron!
And like a log that is directed by the current of the river, our media does the same to ensure a generation of unquestioning MacDonalds' eating, Nike wearing of citizens who will see Arab ethnic cleansing and apartheid in a positive way, just like American and non-American anti-Zionists do.
- Arab ethnic cleansing of Israelis? Where do Israelis live under an Arab military occupation? Where are refugee camps for Israelis?
I personally don't think that people who we (the anti-Zionists) have successfully brainwashed are really logs. Boulders would, I believe, be much more appropriate.
Well, we fanatic anti-Zionists must continue our mission of transforming people in Western societies into brainless objects, whether they happen to be logs or boulders or whatever else. Because if they are capable of independent thought, most of them will oppose the atrocities our Palestinian and other Arab friends commit.
Heil Hitler!
- A concerned Zionist
1) A Zionist would never sign off with Heil Hitler.
2) You have admitted you are an antizionist, yet you sign off as a 'concerned Zionist'
Either stop impersonating others, or at least try doing so without a bottle of vodka to give you your ideas. Your pathetic impersonation doesn't even make any sense. Get a brain, you jackass!
- A concerned Zionist
Some errors in your pathetic impersonation attempt.
Dear antibullshit,
You are so right, my friend. How could Angie think that a log has a mind of its' own?!!! Of course, neither logs or people who swallow and believe the lies fed to them by the mostly anti-Zionist-friendly media are capable of any real thought.
- Anti-Zionist friendly media? Which outlet? CNN? ABC? NBC? The American media is all proZionist, you stupid moron!
And like a log that is directed by the current of the river, our media does the same to ensure a generation of unquestioning MacDonalds' eating, Nike wearing of citizens who will see Arab ethnic cleansing and apartheid in a positive way, just like American and non-American anti-Zionists do.
- Arab ethnic cleansing of Israelis? Where do Israelis live under an Arab military occupation? Where are refugee camps for Israelis?
I personally don't think that people who we (the anti-Zionists) have successfully brainwashed are really logs. Boulders would, I believe, be much more appropriate.
Well, we fanatic anti-Zionists must continue our mission of transforming people in Western societies into brainless objects, whether they happen to be logs or boulders or whatever else. Because if they are capable of independent thought, most of them will oppose the atrocities our Palestinian and other Arab friends commit.
Heil Hitler!
- A concerned Zionist
1) A Zionist would never sign off with Heil Hitler.
2) You have admitted you are an antizionist, yet you sign off as a 'concerned Zionist'
Either stop impersonating others, or at least try doing so without a bottle of vodka to give you your ideas. Your pathetic impersonation doesn't even make any sense. Get a brain, you jackass!
- A concerned Zionist
I can appreciate where you're coming from. I've spent some time tonight going about reading stuff attributed to myself. It's part of a pattern, my friend. And in your case I can certainly understand how galling it must be. But you know what "they" say - "Idiots will be idiots" or if "they" don't stay that, they should.
In fact, the international community calls Gaza and the West Bank the Palestinian Territories, NOT "disputed territories". Don't lie! SWACK! (that was my ruler across your ignoramus knuckles, you knucklehead!) Only Israel and Zionists and their dopey sympathizers call it "disputed territories".
Dear impersonator,
Some errors in your pathetic impersonation attempt.
Dear antibullshit,
You are so right, my friend. How could Angie think that a log has a mind of its' own?!!! Of course, neither logs or people who swallow and believe the lies fed to them by the mostly anti-Zionist-friendly media are capable of any real thought.
- Anti-Zionist friendly media? Which outlet? CNN? ABC? NBC? BBC? The American media is almost entirely proZionist (except for FoxNews), you stupid donkey!
And like a log that is directed by the current of the river, our media does the same to ensure a generation of unquestioning MacDonalds' eating, Nike wearing of citizens who will see Arab ethnic cleansing and apartheid in a positive way, just like American and non-American anti-Zionists do.
- Arab ethnic cleansing of Israelis? Where do Israelis live by an Arab terrorist genocidal entity?
I personally don't think that people who we (the anti-Zionists) have successfully brainwashed are really logs. Boulders would, I believe, be much more appropriate.
Well, we fanatic anti-Zionists must continue our mission of transforming people in Western societies into brainless objects, whether they happen to be logs or boulders or whatever else. Because if they are capable of independent thought, most of them will oppose the atrocities our Palestinian and other Arab friends commit.
Heil Hitler!
- A concerned Zionist
1) A Zionist would never sign off with Heil Sharon.
2) You have admitted you are an antizionist, yet you sign off as a 'concerned Zionist'
Either stop impersonating others, or at least try doing so without a bottle of vodka to give you your ideas. Your pathetic impersonation doesn't even make any sense. Get a brain, you jackass!
Angie, I appreciate your input. You're my dumbass partner in arms!
- A concerned Zionist
Some errors in your pathetic impersonation attempt.
Dear antibullshit,
You are so right, my friend. How could Angie think that a log has a mind of its' own?!!! Of course, neither logs or people who swallow and believe the lies fed to them by the mostly anti-Zionist-friendly media are capable of any real thought.
- Anti-Zionist friendly media? Which outlet? CNN? ABC? NBC? BBC? The American media is almost entirely proZionist (except for FoxNews), you stupid donkey!
And like a log that is directed by the current of the river, our media does the same to ensure a generation of unquestioning MacDonalds' eating, Nike wearing of citizens who will see Arab ethnic cleansing and apartheid in a positive way, just like American and non-American anti-Zionists do.
- Arab ethnic cleansing of Israelis? Where do Israelis live by an Arab terrorist genocidal entity?
I personally don't think that people who we (the anti-Zionists) have successfully brainwashed are really logs. Boulders would, I believe, be much more appropriate.
Well, we fanatic anti-Zionists must continue our mission of transforming people in Western societies into brainless objects, whether they happen to be logs or boulders or whatever else. Because if they are capable of independent thought, most of them will oppose the atrocities our Palestinian and other Arab friends commit.
Heil Hitler!
- A concerned Zionist
1) A Zionist would never sign off with Heil Sharon.
2) You have admitted you are an antizionist, yet you sign off as a 'concerned Zionist'
Either stop impersonating others, or at least try doing so without a bottle of vodka to give you your ideas. Your pathetic impersonation doesn't even make any sense. Get a brain, you jackass!
Angie, I appreciate your input. You're my dumbass partner in arms!
- A concerned Zionist
Hi everyone,
My name is Joey, and I am the coolest badass on this board.
If you look above, you'll see my latest impersonation attempt. I impersonate others because I have nothing important to say, and it's safer than smashing my neighbor's windows.
My uncle is in the ADL and tells me what to write before buying me cool video games. He lost his hand trying to murder a group of stone throwing Palestinian kids, a molotov cocktail got him before he could open fire on the children. He is a true Zionist war hero.
I like impersonating others because I have nothing important to say anyways, and my uncle knows that nobody listens to people like him anyways. And it's healthier than sniffing my car's gas fumes.
Hope you all liked it, Hyuck! Hyuck! Hyuck!
My name is Joey, and I am the coolest badass on this board.
If you look above, you'll see my latest impersonation attempt. I impersonate others because I have nothing important to say, and it's safer than smashing my neighbor's windows.
My uncle is in the ADL and tells me what to write before buying me cool video games. He lost his hand trying to murder a group of stone throwing Palestinian kids, a molotov cocktail got him before he could open fire on the children. He is a true Zionist war hero.
I like impersonating others because I have nothing important to say anyways, and my uncle knows that nobody listens to people like him anyways. And it's healthier than sniffing my car's gas fumes.
Hope you all liked it, Hyuck! Hyuck! Hyuck!
Dear Teacher,
You are growing very irritable, with your criticism of the crimes we Zionists commit with impunity. Don't you see that there are no palestinian territories? They were stolen by us, so they are now righfully a part of Israel! The Palestinians refuse to realize that Israel is the best nation in the world and that only the Israeli people have a right to live in dignity in the Middle East.
They attack our innocent Uzi gun-toting soldiers with stones and ravage our defenseless tanks with murderous small arms fire. Instead of bowing down to our imperialist might, they continue to resist. And some of them, inspired by how our IDF has been torturing and murdering Palestinian civilians since the occupation began, go into Tel Aviv and kill Israeli civilians in a similar fashion. The only difference is that they die in the process as well, unlike Israeli pilots ( not all of them, some 27 have refused to obey our murderous orders a few days ago- that's what happens when we Zionists aren't careful- some of our minions turn back towards humanity and away from Ariel Sharon) who bombed Beirut from the comfort of their jets.
If the Palestinians would stop resisting, there would be no 'disputed territories', as they are rightfully a part of our Zionist empire. We stole the land, and since we claim to be Jews, we deserve to keep it and will label those who think otherwise as 'antisemites'.
So, dear teacher, please get yourself together. Do not call Palestinian territories what they really are, but please fall in line with our Zionist ideology and refer to them as 'disputed territories' or, even better, 'Greater Israel'.
Please use the proper, politically correct terminology in the future. Stop educating. Fall in line with our Zionist methods, and start indoctrinating.
An educated and moral population is more likely to act out against our policies in the Middle East than a carefully molded set of minds that are fed by the propaganda coming from our local Asper centre. They need to be kept busy watching Schindlers' List and learning about atrocities committed against innocent Jews in the past, so they don't have time to oppose the crimes that we Zionists commit in the present. They must also be kept away from real Jews like Jews Against The Occupation and Uri Avnery, and be entertained by our fiery troupe of clowns from the Knesset, the Anti Defamation League, and the so-called Jewish Task Force (real Jews don't support our racist, Zionist policies). In short, we need to indoctrinate, not educate.
Dear Teacher, we Zionists do not support your truth teaching policies and demand that you stop immediately.
Our boys in the Mossad are watching your every move.
Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist
You are growing very irritable, with your criticism of the crimes we Zionists commit with impunity. Don't you see that there are no palestinian territories? They were stolen by us, so they are now righfully a part of Israel! The Palestinians refuse to realize that Israel is the best nation in the world and that only the Israeli people have a right to live in dignity in the Middle East.
They attack our innocent Uzi gun-toting soldiers with stones and ravage our defenseless tanks with murderous small arms fire. Instead of bowing down to our imperialist might, they continue to resist. And some of them, inspired by how our IDF has been torturing and murdering Palestinian civilians since the occupation began, go into Tel Aviv and kill Israeli civilians in a similar fashion. The only difference is that they die in the process as well, unlike Israeli pilots ( not all of them, some 27 have refused to obey our murderous orders a few days ago- that's what happens when we Zionists aren't careful- some of our minions turn back towards humanity and away from Ariel Sharon) who bombed Beirut from the comfort of their jets.
If the Palestinians would stop resisting, there would be no 'disputed territories', as they are rightfully a part of our Zionist empire. We stole the land, and since we claim to be Jews, we deserve to keep it and will label those who think otherwise as 'antisemites'.
So, dear teacher, please get yourself together. Do not call Palestinian territories what they really are, but please fall in line with our Zionist ideology and refer to them as 'disputed territories' or, even better, 'Greater Israel'.
Please use the proper, politically correct terminology in the future. Stop educating. Fall in line with our Zionist methods, and start indoctrinating.
An educated and moral population is more likely to act out against our policies in the Middle East than a carefully molded set of minds that are fed by the propaganda coming from our local Asper centre. They need to be kept busy watching Schindlers' List and learning about atrocities committed against innocent Jews in the past, so they don't have time to oppose the crimes that we Zionists commit in the present. They must also be kept away from real Jews like Jews Against The Occupation and Uri Avnery, and be entertained by our fiery troupe of clowns from the Knesset, the Anti Defamation League, and the so-called Jewish Task Force (real Jews don't support our racist, Zionist policies). In short, we need to indoctrinate, not educate.
Dear Teacher, we Zionists do not support your truth teaching policies and demand that you stop immediately.
Our boys in the Mossad are watching your every move.
Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist
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