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John Pilger: Civilian Deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan and radiation contamination from DU
On 12 June, a large American force attacked a "terrorist base" north of Baghdad and left more than 100 dead, according to a US spokesman...This month, Iraq Body Count, a group of American and British academics and researchers, estimated that up to 10,000 civilians may have been killed in Iraq, including 2,356 civilians in the attack on Baghdad alone. And this is likely to be an extremely conservative figure.
America's two "great victories" since 11 September 2001 are unravelling. In Afghanistan, the regime of Hamid Karzai has virtually no authority and no money, and would collapse without American guns. Al-Qaeda has not been defeated, and the Taliban are re-emerging. Regardless of showcase improvements, the situation of women and children remains desperate. The token woman in Karzai's cabinet, the courageous physician Sima Samar, has been forced out of government and is now in constant fear of her life, with an armed guard outside her office door and another at her gate. Murder, rape and child abuse are committed with impunity by the private armies of America's "friends", the warlords whom Washington has bribed with millions of dollars, cash in hand, to give the pretence of stability.
"We are in a combat zone the moment we leave this base," an American colonel told me at Bagram airbase, near Kabul. "We are shot at every day, several times a day." When I said that surely he had come to liberate and protect the people, he belly-laughed.
American troops are rarely seen in Afghanistan's towns. They escort US officials at high speed in armoured vans with blackened windows and military vehicles, mounted with machine-guns, in front and behind. Even the vast Bagram base was considered too insecure for the defence secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, during his recent, fleeting visit. So nervous are the Americans that a few weeks ago they "accidentally" shot dead four government soldiers in the centre of Kabul, igniting the second major street protest against their presence in a week.
On the day I left Kabul, a car bomb exploded on the road to the airport, killing four German soldiers, members of the international security force Isaf. The Germans' bus was lifted into the air; human flesh lay on the roadside. When British soldiers arrived to "seal off" the area, they were watched by a silent crowd, squinting into the heat and dust, across a divide as wide as that which separated British troops from Afghans in the 19th century, and the French from Algerians and Americans from Vietnamese.
In Iraq, scene of the second "great victory", there are two open secrets. The first is that the "terrorists" now besieging the American occupation force represent an armed resistance that is almost certainly supported by the majority of Iraqis who, contrary to pre-war propaganda, opposed their enforced "liberation" (see Jonathan Steele's investigation, 19 March 2003, http://www.guardian.co.uk). The second secret is that there is emerging evidence of the true scale of the Anglo-American killing, pointing to the bloodbath Bush and Blair have always denied.
Comparisons with Vietnam have been made so often over the years that I hesitate to draw another. However, the similarities are striking: for example, the return of expressions such as "sucked into a quagmire". This suggests, once again, that the Americans are victims, not invaders: the approved Hollywood version when a rapacious adventure goes wrong. Since Saddam Hussein's statue was toppled almost three months ago, more Americans have been killed than during the war. Ten have been killed and 25 wounded in classic guerrilla attacks on roadblocks and checkpoints which may number as many as a dozen a day.
The Americans call the guerrillas "Saddam loyalists" and "Ba'athist fighters", in the same way they used to dismiss the Vietnamese as "communists". Recently, in Falluja, in the Sunni heartland of Iraq, it was clearly not the presence of Ba'athists or Saddamists, but the brutal behaviour of the occupiers, who fired point-blank at a crowd, that inspired the resistance. The American tanks gunning down a family of shepherds is reminiscent of the gunning down of a shepherd, his family and sheep by "coalition" aircraft in a "no-fly zone" four years ago, whose aftermath I filmed and which evoked, for me, the murderous games American aircraft used to play in Vietnam, gunning down farmers in their fields, children on their buffaloes.
On 12 June, a large American force attacked a "terrorist base" north of Baghdad and left more than 100 dead, according to a US spokesman. The term "terrorist" is important, because it implies that the likes of al-Qaeda are attacking the liberators, and so the connection between Iraq and 11 September is made, which in pre-war propaganda was never made.
More than 400 prisoners were taken in this operation. The majority have reportedly joined thousands of Iraqis in a "holding facility" at Baghdad airport: a concentration camp along the lines of Bagram, from where people are shipped to Guantanamo Bay. In Afghanistan, the Americans pick up taxi drivers and send them into oblivion, via Bagram. Like Pinochet's boys in Chile, they are making their perceived enemies "disappear".
"Search and destroy", the scorched-earth tactic from Vietnam, is back. In the arid south-eastern plains of Afghanistan, the village of Niazi Qala no longer stands. American airborne troops swept down before dawn on 30 December 2001 and slaughtered, among others, a wedding party. Villagers said that women and children ran towards a dried pond, seeking protection from the gunfire, and were shot as they ran. After two hours, the aircraft and the attackers left. According to a United Nations investigation, 52 people were killed, including 25 children. "We identified it as a military target," says the Pentagon, echoing its initial response to the My Lai massacre 35 years ago.
The targeting of civilians has long been a journalistic taboo in the west. Accredited monsters did that, never "us". The civilian death toll of the 1991 Gulf war was wildly underestimated. Almost a year later, a comprehensive study by the Medical Education Trust in London estimated that more than 200,000 Iraqis had died during and immediately after the war, as a direct or indirect consequence of attacks on civilian infrastructure. The report was all but ignored. This month, Iraq Body Count, a group of American and British academics and researchers, estimated that up to 10,000 civilians may have been killed in Iraq, including 2,356 civilians in the attack on Baghdad alone. And this is likely to be an extremely conservative figure.
In Afghanistan, there has been similar carnage. In May last year, Jonathan Steele extrapolated all the available field evidence of the human cost of the US bombing and concluded that as many as 20,000 Afghans may have lost their lives as an indirect consequence of the bombing, many of them drought victims denied relief.
The use of uranium-tipped munitions evokes the catastrophe of Agent Orange. In the first Gulf war in 1991, the Americans and British used 350 tonnes of depleted uranium. According to the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority, quoting an international study, 50 tonnes of DU, if inhaled or ingested, would cause 500,000 deaths. Most of the victims are civilians in southern Iraq. It is estimated that 2,000 tonnes were used during the latest attack.
In a remarkable series of reports for the Christian Science Monitor, the investigative reporter Scott Peterson has described radiated bullets in the streets of Baghdad and radiation-contaminated tanks, where children play without warning. Belatedly, a few signs in Arabic have appeared: "Danger - Get away from this area". At the same time, in Afghanistan, the Uranium Medical Research Centre, based in Canada, has made two field studies, with the results described as "shocking". "Without exception," it reported, "at every bomb site investigated, people are ill. A significant portion of the civilian population presents symptoms consistent with internal contamination by uranium."
An official map distributed to non-government agencies in Iraq shows that the American and British military have plastered urban areas with cluster bombs, many of which will have failed to detonate on impact. These usually lie unnoticed until children pick them up, then they explode.
In the centre of Kabul, I found two ragged notices warning people that the rubble of their homes, and streets, contained unexploded cluster bombs "made in USA". Who reads them? Small children? The day I watched children skipping through what might have been an urban minefield, I saw Tony Blair on CNN in the lobby of my hotel. He was in Iraq, in Basra, lifting a child into his arms, in a school that had been painted for his visit, and where lunch had been prepared in his honour, in a city where basic services such as education, food and water remain a shambles under the British occupation.
It was in Basra three years ago that I filmed hundreds of children ill and dying because they had been denied cancer treatment equipment and drugs under an embargo enforced with enthusiasm by Tony Blair. Now here he was - shirt open, with that fixed grin, a man of the troops if not of the people - lifting a toddler into his arms for the cameras.
When I returned to London, I read "After Lunch", by Harold Pinter, from a new collection of his called War (Faber & Faber).
And after noon the well-dressed creatures come To sniff among the dead And have their lunch
And all the many well-dressed creatures pluck The swollen avocados from the dust And stir the minestrone with stray bones
And after lunch They loll and lounge about Decanting claret in convenient skulls
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Pilger is a renowned journalist and documentary film-maker. A war correspondent and ZNet Commentator, his writings have appeared in numerous magazines, and newspapers such as the Daily Mirror, the Guardian, the Independent, New Statesman, the New York Times, the Los Angeles Times, the Nation, and other newspapers and periodicals around the world. His books include Heroes (2001) Hidden Agendas (1998) and Distant Voices (1994).
"We are in a combat zone the moment we leave this base," an American colonel told me at Bagram airbase, near Kabul. "We are shot at every day, several times a day." When I said that surely he had come to liberate and protect the people, he belly-laughed.
American troops are rarely seen in Afghanistan's towns. They escort US officials at high speed in armoured vans with blackened windows and military vehicles, mounted with machine-guns, in front and behind. Even the vast Bagram base was considered too insecure for the defence secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, during his recent, fleeting visit. So nervous are the Americans that a few weeks ago they "accidentally" shot dead four government soldiers in the centre of Kabul, igniting the second major street protest against their presence in a week.
On the day I left Kabul, a car bomb exploded on the road to the airport, killing four German soldiers, members of the international security force Isaf. The Germans' bus was lifted into the air; human flesh lay on the roadside. When British soldiers arrived to "seal off" the area, they were watched by a silent crowd, squinting into the heat and dust, across a divide as wide as that which separated British troops from Afghans in the 19th century, and the French from Algerians and Americans from Vietnamese.
In Iraq, scene of the second "great victory", there are two open secrets. The first is that the "terrorists" now besieging the American occupation force represent an armed resistance that is almost certainly supported by the majority of Iraqis who, contrary to pre-war propaganda, opposed their enforced "liberation" (see Jonathan Steele's investigation, 19 March 2003, http://www.guardian.co.uk). The second secret is that there is emerging evidence of the true scale of the Anglo-American killing, pointing to the bloodbath Bush and Blair have always denied.
Comparisons with Vietnam have been made so often over the years that I hesitate to draw another. However, the similarities are striking: for example, the return of expressions such as "sucked into a quagmire". This suggests, once again, that the Americans are victims, not invaders: the approved Hollywood version when a rapacious adventure goes wrong. Since Saddam Hussein's statue was toppled almost three months ago, more Americans have been killed than during the war. Ten have been killed and 25 wounded in classic guerrilla attacks on roadblocks and checkpoints which may number as many as a dozen a day.
The Americans call the guerrillas "Saddam loyalists" and "Ba'athist fighters", in the same way they used to dismiss the Vietnamese as "communists". Recently, in Falluja, in the Sunni heartland of Iraq, it was clearly not the presence of Ba'athists or Saddamists, but the brutal behaviour of the occupiers, who fired point-blank at a crowd, that inspired the resistance. The American tanks gunning down a family of shepherds is reminiscent of the gunning down of a shepherd, his family and sheep by "coalition" aircraft in a "no-fly zone" four years ago, whose aftermath I filmed and which evoked, for me, the murderous games American aircraft used to play in Vietnam, gunning down farmers in their fields, children on their buffaloes.
On 12 June, a large American force attacked a "terrorist base" north of Baghdad and left more than 100 dead, according to a US spokesman. The term "terrorist" is important, because it implies that the likes of al-Qaeda are attacking the liberators, and so the connection between Iraq and 11 September is made, which in pre-war propaganda was never made.
More than 400 prisoners were taken in this operation. The majority have reportedly joined thousands of Iraqis in a "holding facility" at Baghdad airport: a concentration camp along the lines of Bagram, from where people are shipped to Guantanamo Bay. In Afghanistan, the Americans pick up taxi drivers and send them into oblivion, via Bagram. Like Pinochet's boys in Chile, they are making their perceived enemies "disappear".
"Search and destroy", the scorched-earth tactic from Vietnam, is back. In the arid south-eastern plains of Afghanistan, the village of Niazi Qala no longer stands. American airborne troops swept down before dawn on 30 December 2001 and slaughtered, among others, a wedding party. Villagers said that women and children ran towards a dried pond, seeking protection from the gunfire, and were shot as they ran. After two hours, the aircraft and the attackers left. According to a United Nations investigation, 52 people were killed, including 25 children. "We identified it as a military target," says the Pentagon, echoing its initial response to the My Lai massacre 35 years ago.
The targeting of civilians has long been a journalistic taboo in the west. Accredited monsters did that, never "us". The civilian death toll of the 1991 Gulf war was wildly underestimated. Almost a year later, a comprehensive study by the Medical Education Trust in London estimated that more than 200,000 Iraqis had died during and immediately after the war, as a direct or indirect consequence of attacks on civilian infrastructure. The report was all but ignored. This month, Iraq Body Count, a group of American and British academics and researchers, estimated that up to 10,000 civilians may have been killed in Iraq, including 2,356 civilians in the attack on Baghdad alone. And this is likely to be an extremely conservative figure.
In Afghanistan, there has been similar carnage. In May last year, Jonathan Steele extrapolated all the available field evidence of the human cost of the US bombing and concluded that as many as 20,000 Afghans may have lost their lives as an indirect consequence of the bombing, many of them drought victims denied relief.
The use of uranium-tipped munitions evokes the catastrophe of Agent Orange. In the first Gulf war in 1991, the Americans and British used 350 tonnes of depleted uranium. According to the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority, quoting an international study, 50 tonnes of DU, if inhaled or ingested, would cause 500,000 deaths. Most of the victims are civilians in southern Iraq. It is estimated that 2,000 tonnes were used during the latest attack.
In a remarkable series of reports for the Christian Science Monitor, the investigative reporter Scott Peterson has described radiated bullets in the streets of Baghdad and radiation-contaminated tanks, where children play without warning. Belatedly, a few signs in Arabic have appeared: "Danger - Get away from this area". At the same time, in Afghanistan, the Uranium Medical Research Centre, based in Canada, has made two field studies, with the results described as "shocking". "Without exception," it reported, "at every bomb site investigated, people are ill. A significant portion of the civilian population presents symptoms consistent with internal contamination by uranium."
An official map distributed to non-government agencies in Iraq shows that the American and British military have plastered urban areas with cluster bombs, many of which will have failed to detonate on impact. These usually lie unnoticed until children pick them up, then they explode.
In the centre of Kabul, I found two ragged notices warning people that the rubble of their homes, and streets, contained unexploded cluster bombs "made in USA". Who reads them? Small children? The day I watched children skipping through what might have been an urban minefield, I saw Tony Blair on CNN in the lobby of my hotel. He was in Iraq, in Basra, lifting a child into his arms, in a school that had been painted for his visit, and where lunch had been prepared in his honour, in a city where basic services such as education, food and water remain a shambles under the British occupation.
It was in Basra three years ago that I filmed hundreds of children ill and dying because they had been denied cancer treatment equipment and drugs under an embargo enforced with enthusiasm by Tony Blair. Now here he was - shirt open, with that fixed grin, a man of the troops if not of the people - lifting a toddler into his arms for the cameras.
When I returned to London, I read "After Lunch", by Harold Pinter, from a new collection of his called War (Faber & Faber).
And after noon the well-dressed creatures come To sniff among the dead And have their lunch
And all the many well-dressed creatures pluck The swollen avocados from the dust And stir the minestrone with stray bones
And after lunch They loll and lounge about Decanting claret in convenient skulls
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Pilger is a renowned journalist and documentary film-maker. A war correspondent and ZNet Commentator, his writings have appeared in numerous magazines, and newspapers such as the Daily Mirror, the Guardian, the Independent, New Statesman, the New York Times, the Los Angeles Times, the Nation, and other newspapers and periodicals around the world. His books include Heroes (2001) Hidden Agendas (1998) and Distant Voices (1994).
For more information:
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cf...
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With a heavy heart I read your article above.
When is humanity going to stop that killing, rape, and all the other horrendous activities going on in Afghanistan, in Iraq, in all the other forgotten peoples of the world?
It's bad enough that a puppet government has been installed (which is but to laugh at if it weren't so tragic for the people), but we never hear anything about them. It's almost as if they've vanished off the face of the earth. One would be led to assume everything is moving forward in a marvellous fashion. Ah, but you, and others know the truth, and thank you for sharing same with us.
The poverty, pain, and suffering of these peoples is legendary, yet no one seems to want to do anything about it. It doesn't say much for humanity, does it?
CBC Canada recently had a marvellous documentary with respect to the cluster bombs in Afghanstan. It should be an issue brought to the fore OVER AND OVER AGAIN by all peoples who believe in truth and justice.
And, yes, when it comes to photogeniality few does it better than Tony! I can' t believe what a disappointment he's been. it breaks my heart when I think of what could have been on "the road not taken".
Thank you again for another excellent article.
When is humanity going to stop that killing, rape, and all the other horrendous activities going on in Afghanistan, in Iraq, in all the other forgotten peoples of the world?
It's bad enough that a puppet government has been installed (which is but to laugh at if it weren't so tragic for the people), but we never hear anything about them. It's almost as if they've vanished off the face of the earth. One would be led to assume everything is moving forward in a marvellous fashion. Ah, but you, and others know the truth, and thank you for sharing same with us.
The poverty, pain, and suffering of these peoples is legendary, yet no one seems to want to do anything about it. It doesn't say much for humanity, does it?
CBC Canada recently had a marvellous documentary with respect to the cluster bombs in Afghanstan. It should be an issue brought to the fore OVER AND OVER AGAIN by all peoples who believe in truth and justice.
And, yes, when it comes to photogeniality few does it better than Tony! I can' t believe what a disappointment he's been. it breaks my heart when I think of what could have been on "the road not taken".
Thank you again for another excellent article.
Pilger has made a few dubious quotes of numbers there I await the usual people to review and point out his errors throughout all of the blogs of the world.
And then for him to continue using them as if it never happened
And then for him to continue using them as if it never happened
can't you summon a more energetic defense of your phony-ass "war on terror"?
i guess you'll wait until some frat-boy blogger like matt welch "proves" that 1, 342 fewer civilians have been killed in Iraq than Pilger suggests.
what a joke you rightist nicampoops are.
i guess you'll wait until some frat-boy blogger like matt welch "proves" that 1, 342 fewer civilians have been killed in Iraq than Pilger suggests.
what a joke you rightist nicampoops are.
And you will ignore the proof and pretend that pilger is infallable. But then i guess you dont care about facts.
And we went to war with Iraq because they had WMD..
Why a nation like the U.S. with so much knowledge on Depleted Uranium would use such weopons is beyond comprehension, The illnesses caused by this
uranium dust will cause misery to the Iraqi People for years to come.
Why a nation like the U.S. with so much knowledge on Depleted Uranium would use such weopons is beyond comprehension, The illnesses caused by this
uranium dust will cause misery to the Iraqi People for years to come.
i don't consider john pilger infallible.
but if you're going to dis his piece, pony up with an actual counter-argument, instead of some vague sheeeat about others' probably having done so.
pilger makes a pretty wide-ranging argument that raises issues you'd just assume ignore. isn't that so, scotty?
but if you're going to dis his piece, pony up with an actual counter-argument, instead of some vague sheeeat about others' probably having done so.
pilger makes a pretty wide-ranging argument that raises issues you'd just assume ignore. isn't that so, scotty?
The counter argument is simply he is an unreliable source himself. and even when he quotes sources he quotes unreliable ones.
I love u so much scott pi
I love u so much scott pi
You wouldn't be having this "discussion" if I hadn't sent off a wee note re the above article tonight.
Seriously, Scottie, every bleeding time I mention John Pilger, you are right there to accuse him of being unreliable or - dare I say it? - lying.
Didn't I dismiss "Matt Welch" on another thread here in the past few months after you had mentioned him? His qualifications are suspect to say the very least. So don't even think of putting him in the same category as John Pilger.
When Welch has achieved the body of work that John Pilger has achieved, maybe then we'll talk about him. Until then, he's of no import. He hasn't reported from Viet Nam (John has); he hasn't covered Afghanistan (John has); he hasn't covered Iraq (John has). He hasn't covered the West Bank/Gaza. Need I go on?
I'm only surprised Scottie hasn't jumped on my wee note to Robert Fisk tonight, or is that something that he's doing as I type this?
In the meantime just tell me what exactly is "wrong" with this article? Was not the "i's" dotted, the '"t's" crossed? Or perhaps there isn't an Afghanistan at all, hmm? Maybe this whole article is a farce such as were the WMD in Iraq. Or is there even an Iraq?
Scottie, the board is yours. On what basis are you saying that John Pilger's article is erroneous, unreliable, dishonest, untruthful, or whatever else you are saying, or attempting to say, here?
Seriously, Scottie, every bleeding time I mention John Pilger, you are right there to accuse him of being unreliable or - dare I say it? - lying.
Didn't I dismiss "Matt Welch" on another thread here in the past few months after you had mentioned him? His qualifications are suspect to say the very least. So don't even think of putting him in the same category as John Pilger.
When Welch has achieved the body of work that John Pilger has achieved, maybe then we'll talk about him. Until then, he's of no import. He hasn't reported from Viet Nam (John has); he hasn't covered Afghanistan (John has); he hasn't covered Iraq (John has). He hasn't covered the West Bank/Gaza. Need I go on?
I'm only surprised Scottie hasn't jumped on my wee note to Robert Fisk tonight, or is that something that he's doing as I type this?
In the meantime just tell me what exactly is "wrong" with this article? Was not the "i's" dotted, the '"t's" crossed? Or perhaps there isn't an Afghanistan at all, hmm? Maybe this whole article is a farce such as were the WMD in Iraq. Or is there even an Iraq?
Scottie, the board is yours. On what basis are you saying that John Pilger's article is erroneous, unreliable, dishonest, untruthful, or whatever else you are saying, or attempting to say, here?
" Seriously, Scottie, every bleeding time I mention John Pilger, you are right there to accuse him of being unreliable or - dare I say it? - lying."
Could that be because pilger lies (or is jsut unreliable)? If he lies there isnt a limited amount of times I am allowed to dismiss him. He is just plain unreliable.
"Didn't I dismiss "Matt Welch" on another thread here in the past few months after you had mentioned him?
(i used him as a reference which I had rsearched on google, however I dont really read his stuff much except where it is linked from elsewhere.)
The only reason he came up this time is THE OTHER GUY mentioned him. Therefore he IS quite famous and His web site gets lots of visitors who come to read his articles.. more than fifty thousand a day i guess
Besides that a person who is not famous (if mat wasnt famous) is not "worse" than a famous person except in the fact that it is harder to verify if he is unreliable or a lier.
"Scottie, the board is yours. On what basis are you saying that John Pilger's article is erroneous, unreliable, dishonest, untruthful, or whatever else you are saying, or attempting to say, here?"
I suggested that it was likely that if pilger quotes numbers and details that he will have them wrong.
What pilger does is he finds a whole group of cources that have death statistics for iraq or whatever. then he takes all the biggest numbers even if htey are from the least reliable sources. Actually they ae ALWAYS from less reliable sources because there will be a more or less correct nomber and various people will over estimate or underestimate depending on their vested interest.
Pilger was talking about the hiroshima effect in iraq and was quoted a doctor who said that DU was causeing birth defects. Although most of this information would have been available to him he failed to mention that...
.
" ...the US Government has carefully monitored the health of 33 of its soldiers who were exposed in extreme circumstances when DU rounds accidentally hit their vehicles during the Gulf Conflict. Some 17 of them have had DU shrapnel embedded in their bodies for the last 12 years, and yet they do not show signs of health problems attributable to DU."
In the context of him talking about a "hiroshima effect -
"The proportion of babies born with birth defects -without heads, brains, spines and limbs has dramatically increased from 11 per 100,000 births to 116 per 100,000 births -here again a dramatic tenfold increase in the incidence. --
I note this regarding birth defects in atomic bomb survivors children
- There is no statistically demonstrable increase in major birth defects considered in total or in any specific type among the children of atomic-bomb survivors.--
http://www.rerf.or.jp/eigo/radefx/genetics/birthdef.htm he quoted the sadams controled doctor saying
- "The proportion of babies born with birth defects -without heads, brains, spines and limbs has dramatically increased from 11 per 100,000 births to 116 per 100,000 births -here again a dramatic tenfold increase in the incidence. --"
and did not mention
- There is no statistically demonstrable increase in major birth defects considered in total or in any specific type among the children of atomic-bomb survivors.--
http://www.rerf.or.jp/eigo/radefx/genetics/birthdef.htm"
as I said at the time. ."what are they putting in their DU these days!!!"
"1991 tank battles happened HUNDREDS OF MILES away from Basra, how did DU magically cover that distance and contaminate children, and then create cancers much faster than is medically accepted as being possible? There where no 1991 tank battles inside or around Basra. There where no A-10 air sorties either. "
here is a related article on that article
http://www.spectator.co.uk/article.php3?table=old§ion=current&issue=2003-06-28&id=3252
OK on to the current article..
10,000 civiliains. - that is more than the marc herold (also on la indymedia) "body counter" Maximum. surely you dont think marc herold is intentionally understating deaths in iraq to make the US occupation Look good"? (read his site it is all anti war)
2356 in bagdad eh? could he be refering ti this?
"* A survey of Baghdad hospital records suggesting at least 1,101 civilian deaths and another 1,255 possible civilian deaths;"
HMM ADDS UP TO 2356! but funny 1255 of those are "possible civilians" even according to the source. now why does he ignore that?
Note that he states the maximum possible estimate of civilian deaths, which in the original survey is a hypothesis rather than a finding, and then presents it as 'likely to be an extremely conservative estimate'.
Here is a bit on Marc herold
-Marc Herold, Herold sent his wildly inflated civilian death figures to media outlets during the war in Afghanistan. CNN, MSNBC & Reuters didn't publish them. Human rights watch said that Herold's figures were about 3 times higher than the actual number.
- There was alot of double counting and rounding up in regards to the stated casualties from the afgani side.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/002/554awdqo.asp
then pilger says "And this is likely to be an extremely conservative figure." Ermm whatever.
.. some dribble about afganistain
-Two million Afghans returning to their homes. That is, according to an earlier UNHCR release, the largest repatriation the agency has assisted for 30 years.
Cant be all that bad in afganistain eh?
"the "terrorists" now besieging the American occupation force represent an armed resistance that is almost certainly supported by the majority of Iraqis "
- How does he know the arab street unless he has done a survey himself. one we have says..
http://www.intl-crisis-group.org/projects/showreport.cfm?reportid=837
I dont know where he got his certainty from I also remember a recent survey said they wanted the occupiers to stay a little longer and provide stability.
have to go now so I cant finish this but that is a start for you.
Could that be because pilger lies (or is jsut unreliable)? If he lies there isnt a limited amount of times I am allowed to dismiss him. He is just plain unreliable.
"Didn't I dismiss "Matt Welch" on another thread here in the past few months after you had mentioned him?
(i used him as a reference which I had rsearched on google, however I dont really read his stuff much except where it is linked from elsewhere.)
The only reason he came up this time is THE OTHER GUY mentioned him. Therefore he IS quite famous and His web site gets lots of visitors who come to read his articles.. more than fifty thousand a day i guess
Besides that a person who is not famous (if mat wasnt famous) is not "worse" than a famous person except in the fact that it is harder to verify if he is unreliable or a lier.
"Scottie, the board is yours. On what basis are you saying that John Pilger's article is erroneous, unreliable, dishonest, untruthful, or whatever else you are saying, or attempting to say, here?"
I suggested that it was likely that if pilger quotes numbers and details that he will have them wrong.
What pilger does is he finds a whole group of cources that have death statistics for iraq or whatever. then he takes all the biggest numbers even if htey are from the least reliable sources. Actually they ae ALWAYS from less reliable sources because there will be a more or less correct nomber and various people will over estimate or underestimate depending on their vested interest.
Pilger was talking about the hiroshima effect in iraq and was quoted a doctor who said that DU was causeing birth defects. Although most of this information would have been available to him he failed to mention that...
.
" ...the US Government has carefully monitored the health of 33 of its soldiers who were exposed in extreme circumstances when DU rounds accidentally hit their vehicles during the Gulf Conflict. Some 17 of them have had DU shrapnel embedded in their bodies for the last 12 years, and yet they do not show signs of health problems attributable to DU."
In the context of him talking about a "hiroshima effect -
"The proportion of babies born with birth defects -without heads, brains, spines and limbs has dramatically increased from 11 per 100,000 births to 116 per 100,000 births -here again a dramatic tenfold increase in the incidence. --
I note this regarding birth defects in atomic bomb survivors children
- There is no statistically demonstrable increase in major birth defects considered in total or in any specific type among the children of atomic-bomb survivors.--
http://www.rerf.or.jp/eigo/radefx/genetics/birthdef.htm he quoted the sadams controled doctor saying
- "The proportion of babies born with birth defects -without heads, brains, spines and limbs has dramatically increased from 11 per 100,000 births to 116 per 100,000 births -here again a dramatic tenfold increase in the incidence. --"
and did not mention
- There is no statistically demonstrable increase in major birth defects considered in total or in any specific type among the children of atomic-bomb survivors.--
http://www.rerf.or.jp/eigo/radefx/genetics/birthdef.htm"
as I said at the time. ."what are they putting in their DU these days!!!"
"1991 tank battles happened HUNDREDS OF MILES away from Basra, how did DU magically cover that distance and contaminate children, and then create cancers much faster than is medically accepted as being possible? There where no 1991 tank battles inside or around Basra. There where no A-10 air sorties either. "
here is a related article on that article
http://www.spectator.co.uk/article.php3?table=old§ion=current&issue=2003-06-28&id=3252
OK on to the current article..
10,000 civiliains. - that is more than the marc herold (also on la indymedia) "body counter" Maximum. surely you dont think marc herold is intentionally understating deaths in iraq to make the US occupation Look good"? (read his site it is all anti war)
2356 in bagdad eh? could he be refering ti this?
"* A survey of Baghdad hospital records suggesting at least 1,101 civilian deaths and another 1,255 possible civilian deaths;"
HMM ADDS UP TO 2356! but funny 1255 of those are "possible civilians" even according to the source. now why does he ignore that?
Note that he states the maximum possible estimate of civilian deaths, which in the original survey is a hypothesis rather than a finding, and then presents it as 'likely to be an extremely conservative estimate'.
Here is a bit on Marc herold
-Marc Herold, Herold sent his wildly inflated civilian death figures to media outlets during the war in Afghanistan. CNN, MSNBC & Reuters didn't publish them. Human rights watch said that Herold's figures were about 3 times higher than the actual number.
- There was alot of double counting and rounding up in regards to the stated casualties from the afgani side.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/002/554awdqo.asp
then pilger says "And this is likely to be an extremely conservative figure." Ermm whatever.
.. some dribble about afganistain
-Two million Afghans returning to their homes. That is, according to an earlier UNHCR release, the largest repatriation the agency has assisted for 30 years.
Cant be all that bad in afganistain eh?
"the "terrorists" now besieging the American occupation force represent an armed resistance that is almost certainly supported by the majority of Iraqis "
- How does he know the arab street unless he has done a survey himself. one we have says..
http://www.intl-crisis-group.org/projects/showreport.cfm?reportid=837
I dont know where he got his certainty from I also remember a recent survey said they wanted the occupiers to stay a little longer and provide stability.
have to go now so I cant finish this but that is a start for you.
As to Pilger's claim that a majority of Iraqi's most likely support the anti-US resistance, I'll say that I'm skeptical. Whatever Iraqi's feel about the US and its role in Iraq up until today (and there's reason to believe most Iraqi's are antagonistic to the US ruling classes' plans for their country) I tend to think that many many many Iraqi's are incredibly weary of war and not yet prepared to support an insurgency--especially one that is associated (in any way) with the former regime.
The fact that the US would like to conceal is that there are huge numbers of people in Iraq who hated the US' former ally, Hussein, and also have no love or faith in the US ruling class. (Intelligent people needn't ask why that's the case.) It is clear that the resistance the US/UK is facing isn't simply "Hussein remnants"--the upsurge in the south last week was conducted by folks who were fighting Hussein when he was being funneled arms by the US! However....my guess is that a majority are not yet ready to support another war, and I think Pilger discredits himself by stating otherwise so emphatically.
So, in a round about way Scottie, we're in agreement on this one!
As far as DU is concerned, I don't hold a hard-and-fast position on the matter. However, there seems to be a fair amount of circumstantial evidence that they are causing upsurges in various cancers and other syndromes. The rates of leukemia and lymphoma sky-rocketed in the 90s in Iraq after the US used massive amounts of DU armaments in the first gulf war. The numbers of young men returning from the Balkans who've been diagnosed with cancer is higher than would be expected. The US armed services advise personell to wear protective gear when entering vehicles hit by DU and handling expended DU rounds. Why's that Scottie?
It's the dust that DU munitions produce that are thought to be what's harmful about them. In other words, high-winds--such as are common in southern Iraq--could easily sweep the particulate far from the battle-field, right? Perhaps--and i emphasize 'perhaps'--this explains the high rates of pediatric cancer (etc) in Basra.
I'm all for you coming on to this site and attempting to debunk leftist writers. It's good for everyone involved. But for you--who NEVER criticizes US imperialist actions, but instead tirelessly justifies them (i now recall you saying some weeks ago that people in Central America "live well")--to condemn others for a lack of "credibility" is hard to take.
The fact that the US would like to conceal is that there are huge numbers of people in Iraq who hated the US' former ally, Hussein, and also have no love or faith in the US ruling class. (Intelligent people needn't ask why that's the case.) It is clear that the resistance the US/UK is facing isn't simply "Hussein remnants"--the upsurge in the south last week was conducted by folks who were fighting Hussein when he was being funneled arms by the US! However....my guess is that a majority are not yet ready to support another war, and I think Pilger discredits himself by stating otherwise so emphatically.
So, in a round about way Scottie, we're in agreement on this one!
As far as DU is concerned, I don't hold a hard-and-fast position on the matter. However, there seems to be a fair amount of circumstantial evidence that they are causing upsurges in various cancers and other syndromes. The rates of leukemia and lymphoma sky-rocketed in the 90s in Iraq after the US used massive amounts of DU armaments in the first gulf war. The numbers of young men returning from the Balkans who've been diagnosed with cancer is higher than would be expected. The US armed services advise personell to wear protective gear when entering vehicles hit by DU and handling expended DU rounds. Why's that Scottie?
It's the dust that DU munitions produce that are thought to be what's harmful about them. In other words, high-winds--such as are common in southern Iraq--could easily sweep the particulate far from the battle-field, right? Perhaps--and i emphasize 'perhaps'--this explains the high rates of pediatric cancer (etc) in Basra.
I'm all for you coming on to this site and attempting to debunk leftist writers. It's good for everyone involved. But for you--who NEVER criticizes US imperialist actions, but instead tirelessly justifies them (i now recall you saying some weeks ago that people in Central America "live well")--to condemn others for a lack of "credibility" is hard to take.
Hmm a reasoned argument I am impressed...
"As to Pilger's claim that a majority of Iraqi's most likely support the anti-US resistance, I'll say that I'm skeptical.
So, in a round about way Scottie, we're in agreement on this one!"
-- Actually your analysis is a good one I dont want to imply that the US is "loved" in iraq that would really be too much to ask.
"As far as DU is concerned, I don't hold a hard-and-fast position on the matter. However, there seems to be a fair amount of circumstantial evidence that they are causing upsurges in various cancers and other syndromes. "
- I am willing to accept that DU is not healthy. and it probably does cause "some" health problems but the evidence suggests they ae small and infrequent and may be less than the alternative to DU.
However even if DU is a major health hazard I still oppose using misleading statistics in articles about it.
"The rates of leukemia and lymphoma sky-rocketed in the 90s in Iraq after the US used massive amounts of DU armaments in the first gulf war. "
-- The suggestion is that it is likely alot of this is from the use of chemical weapons in the iran iraq war (followed by a lag period for the cancers to develop - also some politically correct reporting.
" The US armed services advise personell to wear protective gear when entering vehicles hit by DU and handling expended DU rounds. Why's that Scottie?"
-- The armed services read john pilgers stuff sometimes also. And as a result you follow the "better safe than sorry" strategy.
"But for you--who NEVER criticizes US imperialist actions, but instead tirelessly justifies them"
Well I have critisized the US over rwanda zimbabwae and some other situations. But I take your point. since you have been reasonable elsewhere in this post.
I am sure the US has misbehaved many times it would be not credible to say they were squeeky clean. But I also refuse to see them as "the root of all evil".
"As to Pilger's claim that a majority of Iraqi's most likely support the anti-US resistance, I'll say that I'm skeptical.
So, in a round about way Scottie, we're in agreement on this one!"
-- Actually your analysis is a good one I dont want to imply that the US is "loved" in iraq that would really be too much to ask.
"As far as DU is concerned, I don't hold a hard-and-fast position on the matter. However, there seems to be a fair amount of circumstantial evidence that they are causing upsurges in various cancers and other syndromes. "
- I am willing to accept that DU is not healthy. and it probably does cause "some" health problems but the evidence suggests they ae small and infrequent and may be less than the alternative to DU.
However even if DU is a major health hazard I still oppose using misleading statistics in articles about it.
"The rates of leukemia and lymphoma sky-rocketed in the 90s in Iraq after the US used massive amounts of DU armaments in the first gulf war. "
-- The suggestion is that it is likely alot of this is from the use of chemical weapons in the iran iraq war (followed by a lag period for the cancers to develop - also some politically correct reporting.
" The US armed services advise personell to wear protective gear when entering vehicles hit by DU and handling expended DU rounds. Why's that Scottie?"
-- The armed services read john pilgers stuff sometimes also. And as a result you follow the "better safe than sorry" strategy.
"But for you--who NEVER criticizes US imperialist actions, but instead tirelessly justifies them"
Well I have critisized the US over rwanda zimbabwae and some other situations. But I take your point. since you have been reasonable elsewhere in this post.
I am sure the US has misbehaved many times it would be not credible to say they were squeeky clean. But I also refuse to see them as "the root of all evil".
As to the quote from the Uranium medical centre - uranium being in your urine is not neccercerily from DU. I wasn't able to see their report to find out how they did their experiments and analysis. (the site is http://www.umrc.net/index.asp I think) Still I am a little surprised that the WHO disagrees with them so if someone finds the study maybe Ill have a closer look.
The World Health Oganization notes that there is some danger to coalition troops who were hit by "friendly fire" [and probably iraqis who were hit by hostile fire], otherwise WHO had found, according to
Leeka Kheifeps, head of the radiation program at the World Health Organization:"Under most circumstances it's probably not going to have any strong health effect".
Instead, most predictions are that "for the large number of soldiers on the battlefield, the risks are so low that you could never measure them," he said.
Possible results of excessive DU consumption are
"a risk of lung cancer or damage to the kidneys in later years."
So that is what we should be on the lookout for.
For a person on the scene to have noticed results from DU just a few weeks or months after the events is unlikely. there is a few thousand times difference inbetween the rate that causes cancer and the rate that makes you sick on a relitively immediate basis.
Don't go sprinkiling it on your food though.. it ain't THAT safe.
Have I put my money where my mouth is so to speak Angie?
The World Health Oganization notes that there is some danger to coalition troops who were hit by "friendly fire" [and probably iraqis who were hit by hostile fire], otherwise WHO had found, according to
Leeka Kheifeps, head of the radiation program at the World Health Organization:"Under most circumstances it's probably not going to have any strong health effect".
Instead, most predictions are that "for the large number of soldiers on the battlefield, the risks are so low that you could never measure them," he said.
Possible results of excessive DU consumption are
"a risk of lung cancer or damage to the kidneys in later years."
So that is what we should be on the lookout for.
For a person on the scene to have noticed results from DU just a few weeks or months after the events is unlikely. there is a few thousand times difference inbetween the rate that causes cancer and the rate that makes you sick on a relitively immediate basis.
Don't go sprinkiling it on your food though.. it ain't THAT safe.
Have I put my money where my mouth is so to speak Angie?
Sorry, Scottie. I didn't realize you had addressed me there in your post there. Yes, it would appear you've done some homework re the DU issue, which, of course, to be complimented..
Did I detect a wee sense of humour there? I thought I caught a glimpse of a sense of fun buried under all that earnestness back when we were talking about Hamas and the IDF wherein I told you it would be farfetched to expect Hamas to be handing out high fives because "Angie came on this board and said she dislikes Sharon" (or whatever it was now).
Oh, and I've found my "Concerned Zionist". Check the Rachel Corrie (Video) thread. He asked about you (grin). Well, you can check it out.
I forgot to tell him his "dear friend, Scottie" put me on to him in the Jerusalem Indymedia even though I did mention that board in passing. He is obviously not leaving us, thank God!l Excuse me while I wipe the tears from my eyes. "Can you drive a bulldozer?" indeed!
Did I detect a wee sense of humour there? I thought I caught a glimpse of a sense of fun buried under all that earnestness back when we were talking about Hamas and the IDF wherein I told you it would be farfetched to expect Hamas to be handing out high fives because "Angie came on this board and said she dislikes Sharon" (or whatever it was now).
Oh, and I've found my "Concerned Zionist". Check the Rachel Corrie (Video) thread. He asked about you (grin). Well, you can check it out.
I forgot to tell him his "dear friend, Scottie" put me on to him in the Jerusalem Indymedia even though I did mention that board in passing. He is obviously not leaving us, thank God!l Excuse me while I wipe the tears from my eyes. "Can you drive a bulldozer?" indeed!
I note you've followed me all over the board overnight, yet this one post has been there since early a.m. yesterday, and you've (a) ignored it for some reason unknown to me or (b) feel no need to respond.
I read it but didnt have any ideas to pick up on from it.
Yes that hamas thing was very ammusing..
Actually I dont follow you so much as just reply to all the interesting topics which happen to coincide with the ones you seem to find interesting.
Yes that hamas thing was very ammusing..
Actually I dont follow you so much as just reply to all the interesting topics which happen to coincide with the ones you seem to find interesting.
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