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Report From The Apartheid Wall, First Phase
These reports are based on human rights monitoring and/or nonviolent direct action in resistance to the Israeli occupation. This report arrives from:
International Women's Peace Service in Hares, Salfit, Palestine:
International Women's Peace Service in Hares, Salfit, Palestine:
IWP is a group of women representing countries in the U.S., Europe, the Middle East, Asia and Africa, who have established a peace house in Hares and are living there alongside the Palestinians to learn about and assist their struggle for independence and self-determination.
They are committed to nonviolence.
For more info please see website http://www.womenspeacepalestine.org.
“The main road from Ramallah to Tulkarem
is blocked and the wall cuts off our neighbouring villages. We cannot accept this. How
shall we go from one place to the other?
Shall we fly?”
- Mayor of Biddya
IWPS Report No. 34
The completion of the first phase of the Apartheid Wall led to the confiscation of 16 villages in the West Bank.
During this period, the Yesha Council or settlers lobby group, demanded the wall be extended further inside the West Bank, to incorporate the settlements into Israel.
This led to the projection of a map where it is not clear for a number of villages if they will be inside Palestine, or annexed into Israel, or trapped between two walls in a ‘ghost limbo land’.
Two of these villages are Deir Ballut and Marda, both in the Salfit Governorate. Deir Ballut is an extremely fertile area, with large tracts of waterlogged land being used as the main growth area for summer crops for the entire Salfit region. The village of 3750 people own 120 000 dunums of land, much more than any other village in the area. About 70% of the land is cultivated with olive trees. Another 20 000 dunums were lost by Deir Ballut in 1948, land that now belongs to Roshaim. About another 1700 Deir Ballut residents reside abroad (of which about 1000 still have a Palestinian ID).
After Oslo, only the village of Deir Ballut plus 150 dunums of land were left in area A. All the rest was put under Israeli control. One of Deir Ballut’s problems is that it is quite cut off from other Palestinian centers. The closest Hospital is in Ramallah, and there are two big check points between Deir Ballut and Ramallah. The checkpoint at Deir Ballut Junction has been there for 15 years, all through the Oslo years!
Despite the disruption to freedom of movement, Deir Ballut residents managed to survive through a system whereby the men worked in Israel and the women farmed the 150 dunnums of land with alternate seasons of summer crops (onions, cucumbers, tomatoes) and winter crops (wheat), and worked producing olive oil. A busy market existed on the road to Ramallah where commuters from all the neighbouring villages would buy vegetables daily.
This kind of survival system has been totally smashed recently by the intensified occupation. On 29th May 2003, the Israeli Occupation Forces dumped concrete blocks in the junction between Deir Ballut and Ramallah, erecting a concrete watchtower. The only other way for Deir Ballut residents to get to Ramallah is to drive for 20 minutes on dirt roads through the fields and then enter the checkpoint from the east side of the junction. The Israeli Occupation Forces have installed a metal gate across the road on the east side of the junction, so even this is not a reliable way to get to Ramallah.
The concrete blocks and the gate mean that cars from Deir Ballut carrying fresh produce can rarely leave the village. The soldiers hold the only key to the gate. In other villages, like Karawa, gates have been installed only to be permanently shut just days later, opened only to let the Israeli Occupation Forces into the Palestinian villages.
There are no more commuters coming through and the market no longer exists. Before, three kilograms of cucumbers could be sold for 10 shekels and now they fetch only five shekels – and this price is dropping almost daily. Desperate Deir Ballut villagers tell of how they had to feed cucumbers to their donkeys after having no way to sell them.
Um Ammar is fast becoming one of those desperate villagers who struggles to put food on the table. Um Ammar's husband died when the oldest of their four sons was only eleven years old. She had to raise the children alone, and support them off the proceeds of the winter wheat harvest and the 12 dunums* of olive trees. Things became easier when the boys became men and got jobs in Israel. With the closure, all four sons lost their jobs.
The 4000 – 5000 shekels every year that the winter crop brought in was ‘bonus money’ according to the family. For the first time this year Um Ammar had to plant summer crops on the only two dunnums of crop land that the family owns. The produce of these two dunnums are virtually all the family has to survive off, a yearly income of 4000 shekels being the monthly minimum wage for a construction worker – clearly an impossible task.
Their present poverty situation and the spectre of the wall are currently haunting the villagers of Deir Ballut. To tar the dirt road through the fields will cost the village 10 000 US dollars which they don’t have. The Palestinian Agricultural Relief Committee can only provide the tar, 30% of the total cost. There are also five houses trapped on the other side of the checkpoint, totally cut off from the village. They are within arms reach of the heavily armed checkpoint, which is bad enough but what is worse is that Israeli soldiers took all the identity numbers of the residents and told them that “after a certain period” they would not be able to get into Deir Ballut without special permission.
Most of the second phase of the wall has been communicated in this type of vague language to villagers. A rumour is circulating in Deir Ballut that ‘an Israeli guy’ told a worker at the Palestinian Ministry of Interior that he ‘should be ready to cancel 40 000 Palestinian identity cards because we want to issue those Palestinians with Israeli cards.’
“We live in a situation where you cannot know which is the rumour and which is the truth,” said Land Defence Committee activist Riziq Abu-Nasser.
What is not a rumour is that on March 25th, the Mayor of Deir Ballut received a visit from Robert Weller and Jeffrey Place, of the US State Department (American Consulate in Jerusalem). They told the Mayor that they had read an article about the Apartheid Wall and they asked if the village would be prepared to be annexed into Israel. The village flatly refused. But the new checkpoint, and the erection of the concrete watchtower at Deir Ballut junction, the same kind of watchtower as the ones erected along the length of the completed eight metre high wall in Qalqilya, makes the villagers think that their annexation may be a done deal.
News about the visit of the state department to Deir Ballut reached Marda village only two months later! On the night of 28th May, Marda villagers arrived at the home of local activist Abed Baset-Said in a panic, saying they had heard that Israeli soldiers had arrived in Deir Ballut to inform the Palestinians that they would all soon be getting Israeli identity cards.
Marda villagers immediately wondered if they would face the same fate. As the Palestinian village closest to Ariel, the second largest settlement in the West Bank, Marda lies in the shadow of Ariel which has been built along the top of the hill. The highway built for Ariel and Tapuach settlers to get to Tel Aviv, Highway 5, runs directly below Marda. The map of the Apartheid Wall produced by the Land Research Centre shows that the wall will include Ariel into Israel. At the same time, there is massive bulldozing going on across the road from Marda. This seems to indicate that Marda will be incorporated into Israel, along with Ariel and the settler highway.
This is the same settler highway which stole 3000 dunums of land from Azzawiya village when it was built. Azzawiya residents work in Ramallah and told IWPS that since the Deir Ballut junction checkpoint was set up, they have difficulties in getting to work.
Marda villagers have not been informed what will happen to them. “Some say the bulldozing is a new road directly to Jordan, while others say it is going to be a high speed railway line. Maybe it’s for the wall…we don’t know what Israel is planning,” said Abed.
“Our future is not clear. Ariel has expanded and is now a city. It won’t be dismantled. Already they have stolen one of our three springs, and they dump their garbage and sewage water into our village. As Marda residents, we can’t see ourselves becoming part of Ariel or existing well inside Israel. This part is confusing us because normally Israel doesn’t want any Palestinians inside it yet now they want to incorporate the whole village,” said Abed.
“Our lands and homes are here. The bulldozing (50 metres wide and three kilometers long so far, the right measurements for the wall) has already resulted in the loss of 300 dunnums of our land. The owner of this land brought a court case but the ruling was that this was a military decision.”
Of course, we will refuse to be confiscated but we need international support to resist,” Abed adds. “Our experience with the Israeli soldiers is that they will kill us in cold blood. Four years ago, we had a demonstration of hundreds of Palestinians against the theft of land in Kufr Dik. The police and army shot us, beat us with guns and rocks, and arrested ten of us. We were only released in one piece because journalists from the mass media were at the police station demanding our release.”
In these villages where the future is unclear, there is a strange atmosphere of anger from the villagers that yet more of their land is being stolen mixed with disgust that the world expects them to quietly accept being killed off slowly, the desire to resist mixed with a sense of futility.
“In 1948, many villages were divided and families torn apart so there is nothing new about Israel splitting villages up again with this Apartheid Wall,” said Abed.
Nawaf Souf, the District C Liasion Officer for Salfit says that,
“For those Palestinians living in the houses of Deir Ballut which are trapped by the checkpoint, its like living in a jail. We are forced to leave sick people lying on the road at the checkpoint next to the concrete blocks because our ambulances can’t pass through – they are not planes! We know that our blood will bleed. The situation is leading to more and more stress on the Palestinian citizen. We just can’t move around anywhere. And these concrete blocks and this bulldozing might be the wall. If so, it is really the end of us.”
Reportage Text by: Laura, Anna
http://www.womenspeacepalestine.org
IWPS Palestine is an international team of 16 women based in Hares, a village in the Salfit Governorate of Palestine's West Bank.
The team members have many functions and volunteers are welcome to join them.
For more info please see website http://www.womenspeacepalestine.org.
They are committed to nonviolence.
For more info please see website http://www.womenspeacepalestine.org.
“The main road from Ramallah to Tulkarem
is blocked and the wall cuts off our neighbouring villages. We cannot accept this. How
shall we go from one place to the other?
Shall we fly?”
- Mayor of Biddya
IWPS Report No. 34
The completion of the first phase of the Apartheid Wall led to the confiscation of 16 villages in the West Bank.
During this period, the Yesha Council or settlers lobby group, demanded the wall be extended further inside the West Bank, to incorporate the settlements into Israel.
This led to the projection of a map where it is not clear for a number of villages if they will be inside Palestine, or annexed into Israel, or trapped between two walls in a ‘ghost limbo land’.
Two of these villages are Deir Ballut and Marda, both in the Salfit Governorate. Deir Ballut is an extremely fertile area, with large tracts of waterlogged land being used as the main growth area for summer crops for the entire Salfit region. The village of 3750 people own 120 000 dunums of land, much more than any other village in the area. About 70% of the land is cultivated with olive trees. Another 20 000 dunums were lost by Deir Ballut in 1948, land that now belongs to Roshaim. About another 1700 Deir Ballut residents reside abroad (of which about 1000 still have a Palestinian ID).
After Oslo, only the village of Deir Ballut plus 150 dunums of land were left in area A. All the rest was put under Israeli control. One of Deir Ballut’s problems is that it is quite cut off from other Palestinian centers. The closest Hospital is in Ramallah, and there are two big check points between Deir Ballut and Ramallah. The checkpoint at Deir Ballut Junction has been there for 15 years, all through the Oslo years!
Despite the disruption to freedom of movement, Deir Ballut residents managed to survive through a system whereby the men worked in Israel and the women farmed the 150 dunnums of land with alternate seasons of summer crops (onions, cucumbers, tomatoes) and winter crops (wheat), and worked producing olive oil. A busy market existed on the road to Ramallah where commuters from all the neighbouring villages would buy vegetables daily.
This kind of survival system has been totally smashed recently by the intensified occupation. On 29th May 2003, the Israeli Occupation Forces dumped concrete blocks in the junction between Deir Ballut and Ramallah, erecting a concrete watchtower. The only other way for Deir Ballut residents to get to Ramallah is to drive for 20 minutes on dirt roads through the fields and then enter the checkpoint from the east side of the junction. The Israeli Occupation Forces have installed a metal gate across the road on the east side of the junction, so even this is not a reliable way to get to Ramallah.
The concrete blocks and the gate mean that cars from Deir Ballut carrying fresh produce can rarely leave the village. The soldiers hold the only key to the gate. In other villages, like Karawa, gates have been installed only to be permanently shut just days later, opened only to let the Israeli Occupation Forces into the Palestinian villages.
There are no more commuters coming through and the market no longer exists. Before, three kilograms of cucumbers could be sold for 10 shekels and now they fetch only five shekels – and this price is dropping almost daily. Desperate Deir Ballut villagers tell of how they had to feed cucumbers to their donkeys after having no way to sell them.
Um Ammar is fast becoming one of those desperate villagers who struggles to put food on the table. Um Ammar's husband died when the oldest of their four sons was only eleven years old. She had to raise the children alone, and support them off the proceeds of the winter wheat harvest and the 12 dunums* of olive trees. Things became easier when the boys became men and got jobs in Israel. With the closure, all four sons lost their jobs.
The 4000 – 5000 shekels every year that the winter crop brought in was ‘bonus money’ according to the family. For the first time this year Um Ammar had to plant summer crops on the only two dunnums of crop land that the family owns. The produce of these two dunnums are virtually all the family has to survive off, a yearly income of 4000 shekels being the monthly minimum wage for a construction worker – clearly an impossible task.
Their present poverty situation and the spectre of the wall are currently haunting the villagers of Deir Ballut. To tar the dirt road through the fields will cost the village 10 000 US dollars which they don’t have. The Palestinian Agricultural Relief Committee can only provide the tar, 30% of the total cost. There are also five houses trapped on the other side of the checkpoint, totally cut off from the village. They are within arms reach of the heavily armed checkpoint, which is bad enough but what is worse is that Israeli soldiers took all the identity numbers of the residents and told them that “after a certain period” they would not be able to get into Deir Ballut without special permission.
Most of the second phase of the wall has been communicated in this type of vague language to villagers. A rumour is circulating in Deir Ballut that ‘an Israeli guy’ told a worker at the Palestinian Ministry of Interior that he ‘should be ready to cancel 40 000 Palestinian identity cards because we want to issue those Palestinians with Israeli cards.’
“We live in a situation where you cannot know which is the rumour and which is the truth,” said Land Defence Committee activist Riziq Abu-Nasser.
What is not a rumour is that on March 25th, the Mayor of Deir Ballut received a visit from Robert Weller and Jeffrey Place, of the US State Department (American Consulate in Jerusalem). They told the Mayor that they had read an article about the Apartheid Wall and they asked if the village would be prepared to be annexed into Israel. The village flatly refused. But the new checkpoint, and the erection of the concrete watchtower at Deir Ballut junction, the same kind of watchtower as the ones erected along the length of the completed eight metre high wall in Qalqilya, makes the villagers think that their annexation may be a done deal.
News about the visit of the state department to Deir Ballut reached Marda village only two months later! On the night of 28th May, Marda villagers arrived at the home of local activist Abed Baset-Said in a panic, saying they had heard that Israeli soldiers had arrived in Deir Ballut to inform the Palestinians that they would all soon be getting Israeli identity cards.
Marda villagers immediately wondered if they would face the same fate. As the Palestinian village closest to Ariel, the second largest settlement in the West Bank, Marda lies in the shadow of Ariel which has been built along the top of the hill. The highway built for Ariel and Tapuach settlers to get to Tel Aviv, Highway 5, runs directly below Marda. The map of the Apartheid Wall produced by the Land Research Centre shows that the wall will include Ariel into Israel. At the same time, there is massive bulldozing going on across the road from Marda. This seems to indicate that Marda will be incorporated into Israel, along with Ariel and the settler highway.
This is the same settler highway which stole 3000 dunums of land from Azzawiya village when it was built. Azzawiya residents work in Ramallah and told IWPS that since the Deir Ballut junction checkpoint was set up, they have difficulties in getting to work.
Marda villagers have not been informed what will happen to them. “Some say the bulldozing is a new road directly to Jordan, while others say it is going to be a high speed railway line. Maybe it’s for the wall…we don’t know what Israel is planning,” said Abed.
“Our future is not clear. Ariel has expanded and is now a city. It won’t be dismantled. Already they have stolen one of our three springs, and they dump their garbage and sewage water into our village. As Marda residents, we can’t see ourselves becoming part of Ariel or existing well inside Israel. This part is confusing us because normally Israel doesn’t want any Palestinians inside it yet now they want to incorporate the whole village,” said Abed.
“Our lands and homes are here. The bulldozing (50 metres wide and three kilometers long so far, the right measurements for the wall) has already resulted in the loss of 300 dunnums of our land. The owner of this land brought a court case but the ruling was that this was a military decision.”
Of course, we will refuse to be confiscated but we need international support to resist,” Abed adds. “Our experience with the Israeli soldiers is that they will kill us in cold blood. Four years ago, we had a demonstration of hundreds of Palestinians against the theft of land in Kufr Dik. The police and army shot us, beat us with guns and rocks, and arrested ten of us. We were only released in one piece because journalists from the mass media were at the police station demanding our release.”
In these villages where the future is unclear, there is a strange atmosphere of anger from the villagers that yet more of their land is being stolen mixed with disgust that the world expects them to quietly accept being killed off slowly, the desire to resist mixed with a sense of futility.
“In 1948, many villages were divided and families torn apart so there is nothing new about Israel splitting villages up again with this Apartheid Wall,” said Abed.
Nawaf Souf, the District C Liasion Officer for Salfit says that,
“For those Palestinians living in the houses of Deir Ballut which are trapped by the checkpoint, its like living in a jail. We are forced to leave sick people lying on the road at the checkpoint next to the concrete blocks because our ambulances can’t pass through – they are not planes! We know that our blood will bleed. The situation is leading to more and more stress on the Palestinian citizen. We just can’t move around anywhere. And these concrete blocks and this bulldozing might be the wall. If so, it is really the end of us.”
Reportage Text by: Laura, Anna
http://www.womenspeacepalestine.org
IWPS Palestine is an international team of 16 women based in Hares, a village in the Salfit Governorate of Palestine's West Bank.
The team members have many functions and volunteers are welcome to join them.
For more info please see website http://www.womenspeacepalestine.org.
For more information:
http://www.newprofile.org/
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You guys are idiots.
First of all, war is bad, and anyone can take bad war photos and use them to build an argument. It doesn't mean the photos tell the true story about anything. I can take death photos and say that this is what cops did to me yesterday. It doesn't mean it's true, and it doesn't explain WHY something happens.
Second of all, israel wants to build a wall to protect itself from lunatics who refuse to stop coming into israel to murder innocent people. Calling it an "apartheid wall" is pretty damn stupid and inaccurate. Furthermore, Israel isn't separating Israeli citizens by race. Israel isn't dividing itself with this wall. Israel wants to secure their own borders so it's harder for people who are not israeli citizens to come into israel and murder people. Perfectly reasonable.
I'm sorry you feel the need to rant in dishonest fashion about a country which is under constant attack from securing its own borders.
First of all, war is bad, and anyone can take bad war photos and use them to build an argument. It doesn't mean the photos tell the true story about anything. I can take death photos and say that this is what cops did to me yesterday. It doesn't mean it's true, and it doesn't explain WHY something happens.
Second of all, israel wants to build a wall to protect itself from lunatics who refuse to stop coming into israel to murder innocent people. Calling it an "apartheid wall" is pretty damn stupid and inaccurate. Furthermore, Israel isn't separating Israeli citizens by race. Israel isn't dividing itself with this wall. Israel wants to secure their own borders so it's harder for people who are not israeli citizens to come into israel and murder people. Perfectly reasonable.
I'm sorry you feel the need to rant in dishonest fashion about a country which is under constant attack from securing its own borders.
>to protect itself from lunatics who refuse to stop coming into israel to murder innocent people.
And what is to protect Palestinians from Israelis who refuse to stop coming into Palestine to murder innocent people?
And what is to protect Palestinians from Israelis who refuse to stop coming into Palestine to murder innocent people?
Once Hamas et al are disarmed, their weapons under the strict control of the PA, we can start real negotiations, maybe even international peacekeepers. We just need to make sure they don't get the same warm Palestinian reception they got in Beiruit.
If you want my help, you gotta give me security from your own people. I think that's a sound policy.
If you want my help, you gotta give me security from your own people. I think that's a sound policy.
The vast, overwhelming majority of the killing is done by the IDF, not the Hamas.
If the Palestinians had built a wall to keep the Israeli killing machine out of what's left of its lands, Israel would have bombed it, fired missiles at it, or brought in its bulldozers to destroy it. After all, that's the Israeli way.
Oh, and perhaps you could define "borders"?
Oh, and perhaps you could define "borders"?
If, by "terrorists" or "terrorism" you mean dropping missies from a helicopter gunship onto a busy Gaza street killing innocent bystanders, dropping bombs on residential areas killing innocent civilians, shooting Palestinian children going to and from school, stealing their lands, lying to the international community, ignoring Resolution 242 and all the UN resolutions (oops, right! They're not "binding") look no further than the current Israeli war criminal and his out of control killing machine masquarading as an "army".
the point about binding resolutions is that the UN is teethless. Therefore no one has to obey them for fear. They also give equal weight to a leader who rules his country on behalf of his people and one who rules a country by killing everyone who opposed him. Therefore it has no moral authority.
Therefore complaining about whether israel has obeyed a resolution or not has no more authority than complaining that they are not doing exactly what angie wants them to do.
If you wnat me to take the UN seriously you either have to give it teeth - in which case I will respect the practical implications of getting on the bad side of it
or kick out all the bad leaders and fix its moral authority.
I think the UN route like the leage of nations is a dead end route to the utopia that you envisage. I had some hope for the EU but liberal idealism and protectionism has crippled that with beurocracy. (how many languages does everything have to be translated into now?).
Therefore complaining about whether israel has obeyed a resolution or not has no more authority than complaining that they are not doing exactly what angie wants them to do.
If you wnat me to take the UN seriously you either have to give it teeth - in which case I will respect the practical implications of getting on the bad side of it
or kick out all the bad leaders and fix its moral authority.
I think the UN route like the leage of nations is a dead end route to the utopia that you envisage. I had some hope for the EU but liberal idealism and protectionism has crippled that with beurocracy. (how many languages does everything have to be translated into now?).
The UN would be a hell of a lot more effective if countries like the US didn't veto every resolution binding - what a word! - against Israel.
And the US had the nerve to disparage France when it said it "would" veto a UN Security Council resolution to attack Iraq.
Apparently the US has a short memory.
And the US had the nerve to disparage France when it said it "would" veto a UN Security Council resolution to attack Iraq.
Apparently the US has a short memory.
you mean dropping missies from a helicopter gunship onto a busy Gaza street killing hamas leaders, dropping bombs on residential areas destroying terrorist strong holds and bomb factories,
"
why does Palestine MURDER women and children in schools, shopping centers and churches. THEN HIDE LIKE COWARDS behind the pretense of there being at war? you do not have a country you cannot be at war with out being a country first !
"
why does Palestine MURDER women and children in schools, shopping centers and churches. THEN HIDE LIKE COWARDS behind the pretense of there being at war? you do not have a country you cannot be at war with out being a country first !
First lets deal with Israel = Murder in Palestine (two posts up) who says:
"dropping missies from a helicopter gunship onto a busy Gaza street ... THEN HIDE LIKE COWARDS behind the pretense of there being at war?"
Ok, I'll give you that point. The IDF fire missles from helicopters against essentially helpless civilians and then fly home and hide.
Now how about Israeli Terrorism (post above mine)
who says:
"when Palestine did exist...?" "but that is not what this is about! "
Palestine exists. It exists in the hearts of the Palestinian people, just as Israel existed in the hearts of Jews in the diaspora for centuries. You are militarily stronger at the moment, but all your weapons and all your hatred cannot crush the hopes of oppressed human beings.
Steal their land. Kill their sons. Humiliate their women. They will never forget just as your people never forgot.
It was the Roman superpower that created the Jewish diaspora. It was the British superpower that created the seeds of the Palestinian diaspora.
Perhaps we can enlighten the American superpower before this travesty of justice continues any further.
I heard part of Ralph Nader's speech to the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee (http://www.adc.org) where he reminded us that the Palestinians are a Semitic people too.
Isn't there a solution where two Semitic peoples can live together in peace without the Israeli side needing to keep their Palestinian cousins in massive concentration camps?
"dropping missies from a helicopter gunship onto a busy Gaza street ... THEN HIDE LIKE COWARDS behind the pretense of there being at war?"
Ok, I'll give you that point. The IDF fire missles from helicopters against essentially helpless civilians and then fly home and hide.
Now how about Israeli Terrorism (post above mine)
who says:
"when Palestine did exist...?" "but that is not what this is about! "
Palestine exists. It exists in the hearts of the Palestinian people, just as Israel existed in the hearts of Jews in the diaspora for centuries. You are militarily stronger at the moment, but all your weapons and all your hatred cannot crush the hopes of oppressed human beings.
Steal their land. Kill their sons. Humiliate their women. They will never forget just as your people never forgot.
It was the Roman superpower that created the Jewish diaspora. It was the British superpower that created the seeds of the Palestinian diaspora.
Perhaps we can enlighten the American superpower before this travesty of justice continues any further.
I heard part of Ralph Nader's speech to the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee (http://www.adc.org) where he reminded us that the Palestinians are a Semitic people too.
Isn't there a solution where two Semitic peoples can live together in peace without the Israeli side needing to keep their Palestinian cousins in massive concentration camps?
"Palestine exists. It exists in the hearts of the Palestinian people...."
Why didn't Palestine get established between 1948-1967, when the disputed territories were in Arab hands?
"Steal their land. Kill their sons...."
No land was "stolen". No sons were killed before the start of Arab terrorism and later wars against Israel the declared intent of which was to "throw the Jews into the sea."
"It was the British superpower that created the seeds of the Palestinian diaspora."
Only in the sense that the British named the territory, their Mandate, "Palestine". Yet at the time there was no distinct "Palestinian Arab" identity. The 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica records different Arab populations. In the south, in Gaza, there was a distinct Egyptian influence, whole communities who were distinct (today, the Al Masri - meaning "The Egyptian" is still one of the largest). Elsewhere there were Algerians and Moroccans, Bosnians and Circassians, etc.
Perhaps ironically, from WW I until 1948, a "Palestinian" referred to Jews, Arabs were known as Arabs. The Jewish "Palestine Post" is today's "Jerusalem Post". Israel's Nesher Beer used to be known as the "Palestine Brewing Co." And during WW II, the "Palestine Brigade", also known as the "Jewish Brigade", was entirely composed of Jews who volunteered to fight the nazis alongside the British.
"the Palestinians are a Semitic people too."
Unless you are using the term in Biblical connotations (meaning the sons of Shem, a mythic figure), the scientific term refers to a LANGUAGE GROUP. There is no such thing as a "Semitic people". For example, half of Ethiopia's population speaks a Semitic language, the other half doesn't. Are they a "Semitic people"?
Nor is it the case that words mean the sum of their parts. Contemplate words such as "drive-way", "park-way" and "inflammible".
The term "anti-Semitism" was coined by self-professed "Jew-haters" as euphemism and more scientifc name for their hatred. Both by etymology and common practice, anti-Semitism means hatred for Jews.
"the Israeli side needing to keep their Palestinian cousins in massive concentration camps?"
Arabs in Israel live as full, free and equal citizens. These "concentration camps" were created in Arab countries. Israel inherited some in 1967 (consider that these people were ostensibly refugees in their own country!).
The saddest part is that those in camps in the disputed territories are the lucky ones. After 1967, Israel moved them out of mud hovels and into fixed buildings. I'm not saying that their life is a picnic, but why not compare it to similar camps that are still within the Arab world?
Why is it that this "refugee" population is denied the rights provided to all other refugee populations? The right to education, work, relocation, resettlement and citizenship?
Oh, because they have and are being used as pawns by Arab governments and propagandists. Used as a weapon to foment hate against Israel.
"Isn't there a solution where two... peoples can live together in peace"
Time and again such solutions have been rejected by the Arabs. From the 1937 Peel Commission, the 1947 UN compromise, the 1949 UNGAR 194, when the Arab League first issued its infamous "3 NOs": No negotiations with Israel, No recognition, No peace.
Then there was the 1956 Israeli peace offer (it had unilaterally withdrawn from territories captured after Egypt illegally closed an international waterway to Israeli shipping and allowed fedayeen terrorists to attack Israel from Egyptian soil), the 1967 UNSCR 242, 1973 UNSCR 338, President Carter's Camp David Accords (for making peace, Egypt was expelled from the Arab League)... and through the 2000 Clinton compromise.
In academia, the term "Palestinianism" has been coined, meaning "Palestinian" + "Rejectionism".
"Perhaps we can enlighten the American...."
If you really don't know better and the above was stated in ignorance, perhaps you should start by educating yourself.
Why didn't Palestine get established between 1948-1967, when the disputed territories were in Arab hands?
"Steal their land. Kill their sons...."
No land was "stolen". No sons were killed before the start of Arab terrorism and later wars against Israel the declared intent of which was to "throw the Jews into the sea."
"It was the British superpower that created the seeds of the Palestinian diaspora."
Only in the sense that the British named the territory, their Mandate, "Palestine". Yet at the time there was no distinct "Palestinian Arab" identity. The 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica records different Arab populations. In the south, in Gaza, there was a distinct Egyptian influence, whole communities who were distinct (today, the Al Masri - meaning "The Egyptian" is still one of the largest). Elsewhere there were Algerians and Moroccans, Bosnians and Circassians, etc.
Perhaps ironically, from WW I until 1948, a "Palestinian" referred to Jews, Arabs were known as Arabs. The Jewish "Palestine Post" is today's "Jerusalem Post". Israel's Nesher Beer used to be known as the "Palestine Brewing Co." And during WW II, the "Palestine Brigade", also known as the "Jewish Brigade", was entirely composed of Jews who volunteered to fight the nazis alongside the British.
"the Palestinians are a Semitic people too."
Unless you are using the term in Biblical connotations (meaning the sons of Shem, a mythic figure), the scientific term refers to a LANGUAGE GROUP. There is no such thing as a "Semitic people". For example, half of Ethiopia's population speaks a Semitic language, the other half doesn't. Are they a "Semitic people"?
Nor is it the case that words mean the sum of their parts. Contemplate words such as "drive-way", "park-way" and "inflammible".
The term "anti-Semitism" was coined by self-professed "Jew-haters" as euphemism and more scientifc name for their hatred. Both by etymology and common practice, anti-Semitism means hatred for Jews.
"the Israeli side needing to keep their Palestinian cousins in massive concentration camps?"
Arabs in Israel live as full, free and equal citizens. These "concentration camps" were created in Arab countries. Israel inherited some in 1967 (consider that these people were ostensibly refugees in their own country!).
The saddest part is that those in camps in the disputed territories are the lucky ones. After 1967, Israel moved them out of mud hovels and into fixed buildings. I'm not saying that their life is a picnic, but why not compare it to similar camps that are still within the Arab world?
Why is it that this "refugee" population is denied the rights provided to all other refugee populations? The right to education, work, relocation, resettlement and citizenship?
Oh, because they have and are being used as pawns by Arab governments and propagandists. Used as a weapon to foment hate against Israel.
"Isn't there a solution where two... peoples can live together in peace"
Time and again such solutions have been rejected by the Arabs. From the 1937 Peel Commission, the 1947 UN compromise, the 1949 UNGAR 194, when the Arab League first issued its infamous "3 NOs": No negotiations with Israel, No recognition, No peace.
Then there was the 1956 Israeli peace offer (it had unilaterally withdrawn from territories captured after Egypt illegally closed an international waterway to Israeli shipping and allowed fedayeen terrorists to attack Israel from Egyptian soil), the 1967 UNSCR 242, 1973 UNSCR 338, President Carter's Camp David Accords (for making peace, Egypt was expelled from the Arab League)... and through the 2000 Clinton compromise.
In academia, the term "Palestinianism" has been coined, meaning "Palestinian" + "Rejectionism".
"Perhaps we can enlighten the American...."
If you really don't know better and the above was stated in ignorance, perhaps you should start by educating yourself.
If Israel really wanted Peace it would be building this wall on the 1967 Border instead of stealing More Palestinian Land on the Small 22% that is Gaza and West Bank. See for yourself how Israel has carved up this small area that is to be the Palestinian State everyone is talking about (and we wonder why the Palestinians are trying to fight for their freedom???).
This is a map of West Bank and Gaza.
The Orange Areas are Israeli Settlements.
West Bank and Gaza are 22% of what is today Israel, West Bank and Gaza:
CLICK HERE > http://mondediplo.com/maps/IMG/artoff3260.jpg
For a Possible Solution to this horrific Problem:
CLICK HERE > http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1618616.php
This is a map of West Bank and Gaza.
The Orange Areas are Israeli Settlements.
West Bank and Gaza are 22% of what is today Israel, West Bank and Gaza:
CLICK HERE > http://mondediplo.com/maps/IMG/artoff3260.jpg
For a Possible Solution to this horrific Problem:
CLICK HERE > http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1618616.php
Before 1947 there was no State of Israel...
In the Mid 1800s there were fewer than 6000 Jewish people in the area that is now Israel, West Bank and Gaza, but there were over half a million Arabs, both Muslims and Christians. (This was not an empty land just sitting there for the taking.)
The grand parents and great grand parents of the Israeli Jews immigrated from Russia, Nazi Germany and other European Nations, (This is a Fact)
Even under the Ottoman Empire the Muslim and Christians in this area were treated better then they are today. (taking in to consideration the standards of that period in time). Where the Palestinians are living now and in Israel is where their grand parents and great grand parents lived. Why, Why, Why, should they go and steal land from the People of Jordan just because Israel is stealing their land.
Enough said.
Let us put the past in the past and try to do the right thing NOW!!!!
Possible Solution:
For there to be Peace and for there to be a reason for the Palestinian People to stop their fight for Freedom:
We need a Palestinian State with Reasonable Border NOW...
Send in a Joint, U.S., U.N. Peace keeping Force to the West Bank and Gaza for the sole purpose of trying to avoid conflicts between the Palestinian and the settlers..
Then have the Biased (biased because they will always be on the side of the settlers) Israeli Military retreat to the pre 1967 Israeli Borders, They can then concentrate their effort on guarding this Border..
(MAHMOUD ABBAS HAS SAID MORE THEN ONCE THAT HE WANTS U.S. OBSERVERS THERE, THAT IS THE ONLY WAY, THAT THE TRUTH OF WHAT IS REALLY OCCURRING WILL BE BELIEVED BY THE U.S. GOVERNMENT.)
Example of a possible solution:
SET THE BORDERS BACK TO 1967...
In return the Refugees have no Right of Return inside the 1967 Israeli Borders..
The Refugees can be helped to settle somewhere in the new Palestinian State..
The Settlements are now part of Palestine...
If the some 300,000 Israeli Settlers living in Palestine do not like living there they can move to Israel...
If the 1,000,000 or so Palestinians who now live in Israel do not like living in Israel they can move to Palestine...
If 1,000,000 or so Palestinians can live in Israel, then some 300,000 Israeli Settlers can live in Palestine if they choose to stay..
If you take Israel, West Bank and Gaza, West Bank and Gaza is only 22% of the total area in Question, This small amount is not too much to ask for millions of Palestinians who must have their freedom to have a peaceful life.
If this solution was implemented there is a good chance the so called terrorist (seen as freedom fighters by the oppressed Palestinian People) would stop their fight, if not they would be very foolish because then Israel would have a just cause to fight back and the U.S. would have a just cause to help Israel fight back.
Otherwise we will continue to have:
Israel: We have to confiscate Palestinian land and demolish Palestinian homes because there are suicide bombers???
Palestine: We have to defend ourselves because Israel is slowly confiscating all our land and demolishing our homes. We have no military to defend ourselves and our land. If we do nothing, we will soon have nothing at all???
The era of colonization is past,. We can not expect to oppress millions of Palestinian People and still have peace.
West Bank and Gaza are only 22% of what is today Israel, West Bank and Gaza.
PLEASE LOOK AT THE MAP IN THE FOLLOWING WEB PAGE:
The Orange areas are Israeli settlements in the already small 22% that is West Bank and Gaza. What kind of carved up mess will the Palestinian State be unless a solution like the above mentioned one is tried??
CLICK HERE > http://mondediplo.com/maps/IMG/artoff3260.jpg
In the Mid 1800s there were fewer than 6000 Jewish people in the area that is now Israel, West Bank and Gaza, but there were over half a million Arabs, both Muslims and Christians. (This was not an empty land just sitting there for the taking.)
The grand parents and great grand parents of the Israeli Jews immigrated from Russia, Nazi Germany and other European Nations, (This is a Fact)
Even under the Ottoman Empire the Muslim and Christians in this area were treated better then they are today. (taking in to consideration the standards of that period in time). Where the Palestinians are living now and in Israel is where their grand parents and great grand parents lived. Why, Why, Why, should they go and steal land from the People of Jordan just because Israel is stealing their land.
Enough said.
Let us put the past in the past and try to do the right thing NOW!!!!
Possible Solution:
For there to be Peace and for there to be a reason for the Palestinian People to stop their fight for Freedom:
We need a Palestinian State with Reasonable Border NOW...
Send in a Joint, U.S., U.N. Peace keeping Force to the West Bank and Gaza for the sole purpose of trying to avoid conflicts between the Palestinian and the settlers..
Then have the Biased (biased because they will always be on the side of the settlers) Israeli Military retreat to the pre 1967 Israeli Borders, They can then concentrate their effort on guarding this Border..
(MAHMOUD ABBAS HAS SAID MORE THEN ONCE THAT HE WANTS U.S. OBSERVERS THERE, THAT IS THE ONLY WAY, THAT THE TRUTH OF WHAT IS REALLY OCCURRING WILL BE BELIEVED BY THE U.S. GOVERNMENT.)
Example of a possible solution:
SET THE BORDERS BACK TO 1967...
In return the Refugees have no Right of Return inside the 1967 Israeli Borders..
The Refugees can be helped to settle somewhere in the new Palestinian State..
The Settlements are now part of Palestine...
If the some 300,000 Israeli Settlers living in Palestine do not like living there they can move to Israel...
If the 1,000,000 or so Palestinians who now live in Israel do not like living in Israel they can move to Palestine...
If 1,000,000 or so Palestinians can live in Israel, then some 300,000 Israeli Settlers can live in Palestine if they choose to stay..
If you take Israel, West Bank and Gaza, West Bank and Gaza is only 22% of the total area in Question, This small amount is not too much to ask for millions of Palestinians who must have their freedom to have a peaceful life.
If this solution was implemented there is a good chance the so called terrorist (seen as freedom fighters by the oppressed Palestinian People) would stop their fight, if not they would be very foolish because then Israel would have a just cause to fight back and the U.S. would have a just cause to help Israel fight back.
Otherwise we will continue to have:
Israel: We have to confiscate Palestinian land and demolish Palestinian homes because there are suicide bombers???
Palestine: We have to defend ourselves because Israel is slowly confiscating all our land and demolishing our homes. We have no military to defend ourselves and our land. If we do nothing, we will soon have nothing at all???
The era of colonization is past,. We can not expect to oppress millions of Palestinian People and still have peace.
West Bank and Gaza are only 22% of what is today Israel, West Bank and Gaza.
PLEASE LOOK AT THE MAP IN THE FOLLOWING WEB PAGE:
The Orange areas are Israeli settlements in the already small 22% that is West Bank and Gaza. What kind of carved up mess will the Palestinian State be unless a solution like the above mentioned one is tried??
CLICK HERE > http://mondediplo.com/maps/IMG/artoff3260.jpg
"If Israel really wanted Peace it would be building this wall on the 1967 Border instead of stealing More Palestinian Land on the Small 22% that is Gaza and West Bank."
So you support the ethnic cleansing of ALL Jews from the areas known as Judea and Samaria for thousands of years before becoming Trans-Jordan's "West Bank" in 1948? The Arab war of aggression should be rewarded, again?
The pre-1967 border was defined by the 1949 Armistice agreements which were not meant as permanent or final borders. Similarly UN Security Council Resolution 242 recognizes that Israel need not withdraw to these borders, that borders will be negotiated.
If the Arabs aren't interested in negotiating, Israel gets to choose where to build a fence to protect its population from murderous terrorist attacks against its innocent civilians (a 7 year-old girl was intentionally shot and killed yesterday).
Lastly, the "22%" figure is also a lie. In 1923, 80% of historic "Palestine" was made into the (Arab-only, no Jews allowed) Kingdom of Trans-Jordan (Palestine across to the east of the Jordan River, eastern Palestine). The remaining 20% of western Palestine was designated for the Jewish state.
Due to increased Arab immigration between the world wars, by 1947 the Jewish 20% was again divided. The Jews were allocated 55% (80% of which was the Negev desert) and another Arab state was allocated 45%. The Jews celebrated, the Arabs violently rejected the UN compromise and started the first of many wars.
Today, Arabs control 80% of Palestine (Jordan), and if they don't again shoot themselves in the foot will shortly have another 5% (the territories), leaving Israel with only 15% of historic Palestine.
"Before 1947 there was no State of Israel... "
Very true. And there had NEVER been an independent Arab state in the holy land. In fact, Arabs hadn't even controlled the territory since their colonial empire was defeated by the Seljuks in 1049.
"In the Mid 1800s there were fewer than 6000 Jewish people in the area that is now Israel, West Bank and Gaza, but there were over half a million Arabs, both Muslims and Christians. (This was not an empty land just sitting there for the taking.) "
BS. In the mid 1800s the entire population was about 50,000 people. In a region that 2000 years ago supported 7 million and in which today 9 million live (and which Arab propagandists such as Abu Sitta still consider mostly empty when arguing for the so-called "right of return").
Mark Twain could travel from Damascus to Jerusalem without ever seeing anyone along the way. While some described island-oasises of land, the country was desolate.
Since there was no social or demographic region known as "Palestine", your population figures cannot describe this region. The numbers I've seen all begin in the late 1870s (AFTER the start of the Jewish revival) and usually include the Arab population of not just eastern Palestine but also of populous southern Lebanon (then part of the Turkish Sanjak of Acre).
"The grand parents and great grand parents of the Israeli Jews immigrated from Russia, Nazi Germany and other European Nations, (This is a Fact)"
No, it's another lie. The majority of Israeli Jews are of middle-eastern (not European/Russian) origin.
"Even under the Ottoman Empire the Muslim and Christians in this area were treated better then they are today."
I'm not sure that this is true. They were living in a backwater of the Ottoman Empire, often drafted to serve in an army in which they had no stake. Life was so poor that until the Jewish revival of the late 19th century, the population was in constant decline.
Jews, of course, had it much worse. To the point that they had to appeal to European powers for protection (see "Capitulations"). Jews were often not considered citizens (and thus not counted in the census). Matters got so bad at the end of the 19th century that 1/3rd of the Jews emmigrated.
"Where the Palestinians are living now and in Israel is where their grand parents and great grand parents lived"
That also is simply not true. There was vast Arab immigration into Mandate Palestine between the world wars (drawn by Jewish development). Following the 1948 war, the UN wanted to define an Arab refugee as one who had been living in Mandate Palestine for a minimum of 10 years. The Arabs objected and bitterly argued until this was reduced not to 5 but to 2 years. Why? Because they wanted as many as possible to qualify for international assistance. And they knew that scores of thousands would not qualify if the threshold was set higher than 2 years.
As I've stated elsewhere, some of the largest Arab families have names that underscore their foreign origin. Al Masri meaning "The Egyptian", Mugrabi is Moroccan, Barghouti is a village in Iraq, etc.
"Why, Why, should they go and steal land from the People of Jordan just because Israel is stealing their land."
A double lie. The "people of Jordan" are Palestinian Arabs. Nor did Israel "steal" their land.
"We need a Palestinian State with Reasonable Border NOW... "
Then why was the Clinton compromise rejected? It would have established such a state on 97% of the disputed territories, contiguous in Gaza and in Jordan's former "West Bank", including the Arab neighborhoods of Jerusalem and shared sovereignty over the Temple Mount.
Could it be that it was rejected for the same reason that the 1947 UN compromise was violently rejected? Because they want everything and are unwilling to compromise?
"Send in a Joint, U.S., U.N. Peace keeping Force ..."
What? But you were just telling us that " for the Palestinian People to stop their fight for Freedom...." So now you want an external force to preclude this "fight"? Or, if you were honest, would you state that such a force would do little to prevent continued Arab terrorism but would prevent Israeli action against these terrorists? That you want such a force to shield the terrorists from Israel?
"If the some 300,000 Israeli Settlers living in Palestine do not like living there they can move to Israel...
If the 1,000,000 or so Palestinians who now live in Israel do not like living in Israel they can move to Palestine... "
This betrays the reality. The Jews in the territories would inevitably leave because life for them would not be safe (and you know it, which is why you suggest it).
Yet the Arabs in Israel would remain because (despite all the whining and propaganda) their lives are good, safe and secure -- and they would likely fare better in Israel than in Palestine.
Consider that when the Oslo process was going good in the mid 1990s, when Arabs living in eastern Jerusalem feared that their neighborhoods would be turned over to the Palestinian Authority and eventually included in a Palestinian state, suddenly (after refusing to do so for over 25 years) there were waves of Arabs applying for Israeli citizenship (so many, in fact, that the PA demanded that Israel categorically reject these requests). Why? In the event that their neighborhoods did become part of an Arab Palestine, these residents wanted to be able to move elsewhere in Israel, even if this meant leaving their own homes.
One other point you miss, in your insistance to reinstate the 1949 Armistice-line as a border, is that with relatively small changes to the border (accounting for about 3% of the territory) the majority of "settlers" could stay in their homes and still be in Israel. Is that too much of a concession for you to make?
"If this solution was implemented there is a good chance the so called terrorist... would stop their fight, if not they would be very foolish because then Israel would have a just cause to fight back and the U.S. would have a just cause to help Israel fight back."
Blowing up busloads of innocent civilians, or restaurants or malls, is not "so called terrorism". It is terrorism. It is NOT self-defense nor "freedom fighting".
EUREKA! The latter isn't a potential scenario but describes the present -- and the past. Hamas openly states that its goal is the destruction of Israel and its replacement with a Muslim (sharia) state. For this reason it opposes the peace process (just as it did in 1996). The PLO Covenant (which was not modified despite the Oslo committment to do so) calls not only for the destruction of Israel but states that violence is the only way.
So you support the ethnic cleansing of ALL Jews from the areas known as Judea and Samaria for thousands of years before becoming Trans-Jordan's "West Bank" in 1948? The Arab war of aggression should be rewarded, again?
The pre-1967 border was defined by the 1949 Armistice agreements which were not meant as permanent or final borders. Similarly UN Security Council Resolution 242 recognizes that Israel need not withdraw to these borders, that borders will be negotiated.
If the Arabs aren't interested in negotiating, Israel gets to choose where to build a fence to protect its population from murderous terrorist attacks against its innocent civilians (a 7 year-old girl was intentionally shot and killed yesterday).
Lastly, the "22%" figure is also a lie. In 1923, 80% of historic "Palestine" was made into the (Arab-only, no Jews allowed) Kingdom of Trans-Jordan (Palestine across to the east of the Jordan River, eastern Palestine). The remaining 20% of western Palestine was designated for the Jewish state.
Due to increased Arab immigration between the world wars, by 1947 the Jewish 20% was again divided. The Jews were allocated 55% (80% of which was the Negev desert) and another Arab state was allocated 45%. The Jews celebrated, the Arabs violently rejected the UN compromise and started the first of many wars.
Today, Arabs control 80% of Palestine (Jordan), and if they don't again shoot themselves in the foot will shortly have another 5% (the territories), leaving Israel with only 15% of historic Palestine.
"Before 1947 there was no State of Israel... "
Very true. And there had NEVER been an independent Arab state in the holy land. In fact, Arabs hadn't even controlled the territory since their colonial empire was defeated by the Seljuks in 1049.
"In the Mid 1800s there were fewer than 6000 Jewish people in the area that is now Israel, West Bank and Gaza, but there were over half a million Arabs, both Muslims and Christians. (This was not an empty land just sitting there for the taking.) "
BS. In the mid 1800s the entire population was about 50,000 people. In a region that 2000 years ago supported 7 million and in which today 9 million live (and which Arab propagandists such as Abu Sitta still consider mostly empty when arguing for the so-called "right of return").
Mark Twain could travel from Damascus to Jerusalem without ever seeing anyone along the way. While some described island-oasises of land, the country was desolate.
Since there was no social or demographic region known as "Palestine", your population figures cannot describe this region. The numbers I've seen all begin in the late 1870s (AFTER the start of the Jewish revival) and usually include the Arab population of not just eastern Palestine but also of populous southern Lebanon (then part of the Turkish Sanjak of Acre).
"The grand parents and great grand parents of the Israeli Jews immigrated from Russia, Nazi Germany and other European Nations, (This is a Fact)"
No, it's another lie. The majority of Israeli Jews are of middle-eastern (not European/Russian) origin.
"Even under the Ottoman Empire the Muslim and Christians in this area were treated better then they are today."
I'm not sure that this is true. They were living in a backwater of the Ottoman Empire, often drafted to serve in an army in which they had no stake. Life was so poor that until the Jewish revival of the late 19th century, the population was in constant decline.
Jews, of course, had it much worse. To the point that they had to appeal to European powers for protection (see "Capitulations"). Jews were often not considered citizens (and thus not counted in the census). Matters got so bad at the end of the 19th century that 1/3rd of the Jews emmigrated.
"Where the Palestinians are living now and in Israel is where their grand parents and great grand parents lived"
That also is simply not true. There was vast Arab immigration into Mandate Palestine between the world wars (drawn by Jewish development). Following the 1948 war, the UN wanted to define an Arab refugee as one who had been living in Mandate Palestine for a minimum of 10 years. The Arabs objected and bitterly argued until this was reduced not to 5 but to 2 years. Why? Because they wanted as many as possible to qualify for international assistance. And they knew that scores of thousands would not qualify if the threshold was set higher than 2 years.
As I've stated elsewhere, some of the largest Arab families have names that underscore their foreign origin. Al Masri meaning "The Egyptian", Mugrabi is Moroccan, Barghouti is a village in Iraq, etc.
"Why, Why, should they go and steal land from the People of Jordan just because Israel is stealing their land."
A double lie. The "people of Jordan" are Palestinian Arabs. Nor did Israel "steal" their land.
"We need a Palestinian State with Reasonable Border NOW... "
Then why was the Clinton compromise rejected? It would have established such a state on 97% of the disputed territories, contiguous in Gaza and in Jordan's former "West Bank", including the Arab neighborhoods of Jerusalem and shared sovereignty over the Temple Mount.
Could it be that it was rejected for the same reason that the 1947 UN compromise was violently rejected? Because they want everything and are unwilling to compromise?
"Send in a Joint, U.S., U.N. Peace keeping Force ..."
What? But you were just telling us that " for the Palestinian People to stop their fight for Freedom...." So now you want an external force to preclude this "fight"? Or, if you were honest, would you state that such a force would do little to prevent continued Arab terrorism but would prevent Israeli action against these terrorists? That you want such a force to shield the terrorists from Israel?
"If the some 300,000 Israeli Settlers living in Palestine do not like living there they can move to Israel...
If the 1,000,000 or so Palestinians who now live in Israel do not like living in Israel they can move to Palestine... "
This betrays the reality. The Jews in the territories would inevitably leave because life for them would not be safe (and you know it, which is why you suggest it).
Yet the Arabs in Israel would remain because (despite all the whining and propaganda) their lives are good, safe and secure -- and they would likely fare better in Israel than in Palestine.
Consider that when the Oslo process was going good in the mid 1990s, when Arabs living in eastern Jerusalem feared that their neighborhoods would be turned over to the Palestinian Authority and eventually included in a Palestinian state, suddenly (after refusing to do so for over 25 years) there were waves of Arabs applying for Israeli citizenship (so many, in fact, that the PA demanded that Israel categorically reject these requests). Why? In the event that their neighborhoods did become part of an Arab Palestine, these residents wanted to be able to move elsewhere in Israel, even if this meant leaving their own homes.
One other point you miss, in your insistance to reinstate the 1949 Armistice-line as a border, is that with relatively small changes to the border (accounting for about 3% of the territory) the majority of "settlers" could stay in their homes and still be in Israel. Is that too much of a concession for you to make?
"If this solution was implemented there is a good chance the so called terrorist... would stop their fight, if not they would be very foolish because then Israel would have a just cause to fight back and the U.S. would have a just cause to help Israel fight back."
Blowing up busloads of innocent civilians, or restaurants or malls, is not "so called terrorism". It is terrorism. It is NOT self-defense nor "freedom fighting".
EUREKA! The latter isn't a potential scenario but describes the present -- and the past. Hamas openly states that its goal is the destruction of Israel and its replacement with a Muslim (sharia) state. For this reason it opposes the peace process (just as it did in 1996). The PLO Covenant (which was not modified despite the Oslo committment to do so) calls not only for the destruction of Israel but states that violence is the only way.
It looks like you do not want the Palestinian People to have their freedom or their State...
So why are all these important Organization and important Nations wasting their time working on this Wonderful Road Map for. You make it sound like Israel should just kill everyone and get it over with and take over the whole area, Why do it slowly like they are so it can appear to the World that they are the victims instead of the Victimizers.
"7 year old Israeli girl killed," I am completely against the killing of children which is why I would like to see the Palestinians get their State so the killing could possibly end.
What about the Palestinian mother and her small daughter who was killed by Israeli bombs a few days ago.
This whole confict would be like any other conflict occurring in other parts of the world except for the fact that Israel receives billions of dollars in U.S. aid and Has all Kinds of WMD thank to the U.S.
For details on WMD:
CLICK HERE > http://www.msnbc.com/news/wld/graphics/strategic_israel_dw.htm
So why are all these important Organization and important Nations wasting their time working on this Wonderful Road Map for. You make it sound like Israel should just kill everyone and get it over with and take over the whole area, Why do it slowly like they are so it can appear to the World that they are the victims instead of the Victimizers.
"7 year old Israeli girl killed," I am completely against the killing of children which is why I would like to see the Palestinians get their State so the killing could possibly end.
What about the Palestinian mother and her small daughter who was killed by Israeli bombs a few days ago.
This whole confict would be like any other conflict occurring in other parts of the world except for the fact that Israel receives billions of dollars in U.S. aid and Has all Kinds of WMD thank to the U.S.
For details on WMD:
CLICK HERE > http://www.msnbc.com/news/wld/graphics/strategic_israel_dw.htm
You can't respond to what I said, only raise straw men.
Please try again (scroll up or click here):
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1619678_comment.php#1620384
Please try again (scroll up or click here):
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1619678_comment.php#1620384
The M.E. was a real peaceful place until the Jews started demanding equal rights, and the right to self-determination, the right to not live under the oppressive Sharia.
Paraphrasing from Queen Rania's new book.
Paraphrasing from Queen Rania's new book.
Everything I said in my Opinion is true. as it stands TODAY. Jordan is TODAY a seperate Country with its own government just like the U.S. is a seperate Country with its own government even though people who live in the U.S. came from all over the world. The People and the area that we are concerned with is, Israel, West Bank and Gaza, Just like the Jewish people came from all over and I agree that you are correct about the ones who came from Iraq, I believe it was about 100,000 or so The majority fled Nazi Germany, and Russia and Eastern European Nations as well as other European Nations. So if the Jewish People are recently new (by that I mean the last 100 years) to the area. The Palestinian are there also (they did not just come out of thin air) they have no less right to be there then Israel. Even though Nazi Germany lost the War in 1945 today they have the Country of Germany, So there is no reason why the Millions of Palestinian who lost the war in 1967 can not have their own Country, Even today the Iraqi Government lost the war in Iraq, but I believe there will be the Country of Iraq in the future.
In any case with out a Palestinian State for the Millions of Palestinian Peaple in the area, There will probably never be peace in the area, because I do not believe that Israel want equal rights for all these people, I am may be wrong on this one, but the last I heard Israel does not even have a constitution.
In any case with out a Palestinian State for the Millions of Palestinian Peaple in the area, There will probably never be peace in the area, because I do not believe that Israel want equal rights for all these people, I am may be wrong on this one, but the last I heard Israel does not even have a constitution.
You're a ranting idiot. Israel's occupation is not "illegal" and regardless, Israel offers land control in exchange for the end of attacks against Israel, but the attacks have never ended. When the attacks end and the dream of wiping Israel out goes away, Israel will respond by giving land control to the wonderful happy-go-lucky jerkoff palestinians.
Who do you think Kofi Annan cares more about making happy? Who do you think he benefits more from being friendly with?
(1) dozens of arab/muslim nations, many of which are extremely volatile
(2) israel?
Obviously, #1.
Furthermore, again, the land wasn't "stolen" from palestinians. Jordan and Egypt had military control of it, and Israel in 1967 won military control of it from Jordan and Egypt. Jordan and Egypt took military control of it in 1948 after England gave up military control of it. The British originally got military control of it after the ottoman empire fell. The ottoman empire (turkey) had military control of that land for hundreds of years. THey won/took it in war, too.
To say that israel "stole" the land is fucking idiotic. They won it in war from jordan and egypt, and have been offering to put "palestinians" in control of that land, if only palestinians will stop attacking israel. For decades, palestinian terrorist groups (or military groups, whatever you want to call them) have continued to attack israel. When the attacks cease, israel may be able to give land control to the palestinians so they can form their own stupid state. As long as hamas and islamic jihad and other groups (and arafat/PLO for 30 years before them) insist on trying to kill every israeli jew they can, there won't be a palestinian state.
(1) dozens of arab/muslim nations, many of which are extremely volatile
(2) israel?
Obviously, #1.
Furthermore, again, the land wasn't "stolen" from palestinians. Jordan and Egypt had military control of it, and Israel in 1967 won military control of it from Jordan and Egypt. Jordan and Egypt took military control of it in 1948 after England gave up military control of it. The British originally got military control of it after the ottoman empire fell. The ottoman empire (turkey) had military control of that land for hundreds of years. THey won/took it in war, too.
To say that israel "stole" the land is fucking idiotic. They won it in war from jordan and egypt, and have been offering to put "palestinians" in control of that land, if only palestinians will stop attacking israel. For decades, palestinian terrorist groups (or military groups, whatever you want to call them) have continued to attack israel. When the attacks cease, israel may be able to give land control to the palestinians so they can form their own stupid state. As long as hamas and islamic jihad and other groups (and arafat/PLO for 30 years before them) insist on trying to kill every israeli jew they can, there won't be a palestinian state.
A small group of the people on here probably including angry manc believe that the palistinians in the end will win a total victory. that any negotiated peace would only be a temporary peace until they could come back to win a total victory and get all of their demands. many of them also believe that this is not just :"the way it is" but also the way it should be and the thing that should be proactively supported.
They might say
1) "Bringing an end to the Israeli occupation of Palestinian land is as much a prerequisite for peace in the Middle East "
But they fail to mention what is in their mind prerequisite (2) which is "total defeat of israel and israels supporters"
They might say
1) "Bringing an end to the Israeli occupation of Palestinian land is as much a prerequisite for peace in the Middle East "
But they fail to mention what is in their mind prerequisite (2) which is "total defeat of israel and israels supporters"
I love you
you're so cool
haha
you're so cool
haha
Is this a discussion forum or a place for people to spam their propaganda lies to distract from the discussion?
Can't respond to what I said?
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1619678_comment.php#1620384
Lest anyone say I did not respond (and I'm not going to "discuss" something with someone who is just cutting and pasting and likely doesn't even understand what's being said -- or is knowingly lying), I'll address this one point in the most recent cut&paste job:
"Fact: The occupation is illegal under international law. Under UN Resolution 242, Israel is required by international law to withdraw from all the territories occupied in 1967, including East Jerusalem"
There are 5 lies and no "facts" crammed into that sentence:
1. UN Security Council Resolution 242 does not require Israel to withdraw from ALL the territories. The word was specifically and purposely omitted. This is the wording of a version advocated by the Arabs, but it did not have international backing and it did not pass. UNSCR242 states "from territories", not "from ALL territories" nor even "from THE territories" precisely because the UN does not determine borders. They must be negotiated. (The pre-1967 borders are formally known as the 1949 Armistice line and this was just a cease-fire line with borders to be determined.)
2. UNSCR 242 does not require immediate nor unconditional Israeli withdrawal. It establishes what has become known as the "land for peace" formula. Israel is to withdraw as part of a comprehensive negotiated settlement. (This is why for 3 decades the Arab League rejected UNSCR 242.)
3. UNSCR 242 does not mention eastern Jerusalem. According to the authors this was intentional.
4. Since UNSCR 242 does not require an immediate or unconditional withdrawal, it in fact authorizes Israeli administration of the territories until a negotiated settlement is reached. Ergo the Israeli administration is NOT "illegal".
5. Furthermore, by Article 2 of the Fourth Geneva Conventions, the Israeli administration of the territories does not constitute an "occupation".
Can't respond to what I said?
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1619678_comment.php#1620384
Lest anyone say I did not respond (and I'm not going to "discuss" something with someone who is just cutting and pasting and likely doesn't even understand what's being said -- or is knowingly lying), I'll address this one point in the most recent cut&paste job:
"Fact: The occupation is illegal under international law. Under UN Resolution 242, Israel is required by international law to withdraw from all the territories occupied in 1967, including East Jerusalem"
There are 5 lies and no "facts" crammed into that sentence:
1. UN Security Council Resolution 242 does not require Israel to withdraw from ALL the territories. The word was specifically and purposely omitted. This is the wording of a version advocated by the Arabs, but it did not have international backing and it did not pass. UNSCR242 states "from territories", not "from ALL territories" nor even "from THE territories" precisely because the UN does not determine borders. They must be negotiated. (The pre-1967 borders are formally known as the 1949 Armistice line and this was just a cease-fire line with borders to be determined.)
2. UNSCR 242 does not require immediate nor unconditional Israeli withdrawal. It establishes what has become known as the "land for peace" formula. Israel is to withdraw as part of a comprehensive negotiated settlement. (This is why for 3 decades the Arab League rejected UNSCR 242.)
3. UNSCR 242 does not mention eastern Jerusalem. According to the authors this was intentional.
4. Since UNSCR 242 does not require an immediate or unconditional withdrawal, it in fact authorizes Israeli administration of the territories until a negotiated settlement is reached. Ergo the Israeli administration is NOT "illegal".
5. Furthermore, by Article 2 of the Fourth Geneva Conventions, the Israeli administration of the territories does not constitute an "occupation".
and I'm not going to "discuss" something with someone who is just cutting and pasting and likely doesn't even understand what's being said -- or is knowingly lying
Only with top-quality natural ingredients.
No MSG or lies necessary.
Instead of trying to overwhelm people with cut-and-paste propaganda, why not attempt an honest response to what I said? Either just above or previously in this article:
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1619678_comment.php#1620384
No MSG or lies necessary.
Instead of trying to overwhelm people with cut-and-paste propaganda, why not attempt an honest response to what I said? Either just above or previously in this article:
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1619678_comment.php#1620384
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