Torah True Jews to Protest the "Boston Celebrates Israel Festival"

The REAL jewish people of the world have always been civilized with an inborn sense of fair play and tolerance.

It's those who are pretending to be REAL jews that are the problem. Most people with a brain are aware of this.

I applaud the actions taken here by REAL jews.

"Smash the Zionist Occupied Government! Our fight is your fight!"

Our fight is not your fight you Stormfront neo-Nazi bastards!

YOU don't get a say in who is or is not a "real Jew".

FYI, some of those idiotic extremist "settlers" are just as "frumm" as the Neturei Karta bunch -- besides being a hell of lot more numerous. Overall the "Torah true" Jews (the TOTAL population of them) are NOT particuarly less Zionist than the general Jewish population.

Thanks for your input.

I'm afraid that my idea of what Jews really are and what they well may be could be wishful thinking on my part. Am I wrong?

What about the goodness, and kindness, and tolerance we are told about? Where can I find that, then? Or does it not exist at all?

Write back. I'm curious, not being a Jew myself, or an Arab, etc. Any input is welcome.

Yo folks, do u people realize the Neturei Karta is soooo small and such insignificant movement in Jewish world that no one even pays attention to them. THey are just a small sect of people who interpret the Bible to their own belief. Millions and millions of religious Jews, Orthodox Jews, support Israel, and Zionism, the National Liberation of Jews in its ancient homeland, the Land of Israel. No one takes these peeps serious, and neither should you.

Where can I look for the goodness, kindness, tolerance, not to mention love of harmony, that we've been told about? Which branch (if that's the right word)?

Guess if I want to learn anything here, I won't. So forget my question. I will pop out to the library and find out for myself.

O Muslims,

The current aggression of America against the Muslims is another chapter in the campaign of the Western powers to brutally murder the Muslims, occupy the Muslim lands, devour our resources and spread their kufr, capitalist way of life into our lands.
The kafir countries conspire to control our lands not only militarily but also politically, economically and even intellectually.

Today the time has come for us to take a decision – to totally accept Islam in our lives and society and realize the reality of this struggle between Islam and kufr. The time has come for us to be on the side of the Messenger of Allah (Sall Allahu Alaihi Wasallam), his great Sahabas (ra) and those Muslims who have struggled against kufr throughout the ages. Do not deviate from the path of the Haq even a hairbreadth until you see the Victory of Allah (swt) and the glory and power of Islam and the Muslims, or you meet Allah (swt) while He (swt) is pleased with you.

O people of power from the army and others; do you not want your pure blood to flow in the Path of Allah (Subhanhu Wa Ta'aala), instead of being spilled for free on the streets aimlessly and without purpose? You will respond to the cries of the children who have been humiliated by the Kuffar. Your Khaleefah will be in front of you in the battle and not in front of you in flight. He will protect you, and you will fight behind him. And he will lead you from victory to victory and not from one defeat to another.

ْﻢُﻬَﺘَّﻠِﻣ َﻊِﺒَّﺘَﺗ ﻰَّﺘَﺣ ﻯَﺭﺎَﺼَّﻨﻟﺍ َ​ﻻَﻭ ُﺩْﻮُﻬَﻴْﻟﺍ َﻚْﻨَﻋ ﻰَﺿْﺭ


“The Jews and Christians will never be satisfied with you until you follow their way of life” [TMQ Al-Baqarah:120 ]

Neturei Karta violate the important principle of 'ahavas yisroel' bymarching in solidarity with those who wish the destruction of the Jewish people.

For those who don't know who neturei karta are, they are a misguided tiny sect within religous judaism who very publicly oppose Zionism for theological reasons that most rabbis disagree with. The vast majority of the orthodox (Torah observant) world, of which I am a part, strongly supports Zionism. I have never met any of these neturie karta, and have only heard of them. They are faily insignifigant.

Jews, Christians, Muslims.....Bullshit!
I'm calling for an atheist Holy War!!!!!!
Atheist Zion!!!!!!
Atheist Jihad!!!!!!
Superstition kills.............

Angie-

Try Chabad-Lubavitch. You won't find kinder people. They are a Hasidic sect with centers in San Francisco and Berkeley. And yes, they support Israel.

Athieism kills, too. Stalin killed millions in his effort to consolidate athiest communist rule. The truth is that neither religion nor atheism cause bloddshed- people do.

Hey angie, what kind of stupid ignorant question did you ask? "What you think jews really are, and what they may be?"

Do you realize how fucking retarded you sound?

JEWS, LIKE ALL HUMAN BEINGS, ARE INDIVIDUALS WHO DO NOT ALL AGREE WITH EACH OTHER ABOUT EVERYTHING.

Even saying shit like you say "what the jews are" makes you look like an ignorant fool.

angie, maybe go out and MEET NORMAL PEOPLE and actually LIVE LIFE and you'd not be so fucking ignorant.

Most of us jews are too busy out getting grad degrees and working to have the time to actually hold your hand and try to make you understand that stereotyping us and putting us into your cute little labels is stupid

Dear Angie,

If all you hear about Jews is what you read here, of course you will hear nothing about kind, generous Jews.

There is just too much to state here but Jews bankrolled the NAACP in its early years, provided the bulk of the freedom marchers in the sixties, and have spearheaded virtually every social justice movement in this country. Jews helped lead the Solidarity movement in Poland, provided humanitarian aid in Yugoslavia when Christians and Muslims were fighting, founded ACT-UP to fight AIDS, and so much more.

The warmest Jews on the personal and religious level can be found at Chabad, as has been noted. On the secular level, take a visit to any progressive organization from NARAL to NORML that has no ties to anti-semitism/anti-Zionism and you will find a large percentage of Jews.

Most importantly, break free of the blinders of Indy Media and open your eyes. You will see Jews at all levels of society exhibiting warmth, kindness, and charity.

After all, G-d commands us to be a light to the nations, and we learn that the world stands on three pillars -- prayer, righteousness, and acts of loving kindness.

Angie, may G-d bless you and keep you, and may G-d make you aware of all the loving acts Jews are doing every day in the US, in Israel, in the territories, and around the world.

I know better in the future to ask for info on this board.

When I read a headline that states "true jew", what the hell does it mean? How am I supposed to know? So I asked for info. It seemed that no one was going to respond, so I said, fine, I'll read about it in the library.

Well, pardon me for living. Hello, why don't you go play somewhere else for a while? I'm not half as stupid as you are nor as ignorant. Stop trying to demoralize me and others on this board who don't agree with you. It is not going to happen. Not to me, it won't.

To the person who indicated he/she is so busy getting a degree, well, wow! I suppose no one else is getting a degree, grad or otherwise, hmm? What kind of a damn answer is that? I don't care what you're doing. I asked a simple question in response to a comment Mike made earlier on this board. That's all. Nothing more, nothing less.

To the.couple that responded with some sense of decency, I thank you. I had no idea there were all kinds of titles involved in the jewish religion. Now I know there are. That's all I wanted clarification on.

Is that so evil? I think not.

Angie
generally speaking "true" definition is a fairly fundamentalist version. The people who look really closely at the book and read it in detail and find out no you actually arent allowed to comit adultery etc etc. the liberal versions with little detail are the "modern" versions.

the flip side is the modern versions are less likely to kill people.

We need Solutions to have Peace.
The Confiscating of peoples land and the demolishing of peoples home is wrong. It would be wrong if The Palestinians were the ones with the superior army and if the Palestinians were the ones confiscating Jewish land and demolishing Jewish homes leaving countless Jewish families homeless so the problem has nothing to do with being anti Semitic. That is why there are so many Jewish people outside (example, Jews against the Occupation) and inside (example, the refuseniks) of Israel against what is being done to the Palestinian People. It is a matter of simple right and wrong, simple common sense.
For a possible Solution where both sides have a State that they can live in peacefully:
CLICK HERE > http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1618616.php

Funny how these Ultra-Orthodox Jews oppose Israel, yet there are thousands living in Israel now. Not to mention the fact that they are exempt from serving in the IDF AND they also receive government funding to do nothing but study the bible all day. Inevitably, they will complain that they are persecuted and can't study their Torah in foreign lands, but nah, "death to Israel,Stop the Zionists" as these fools say.

We are thankful to G-d that there are Jews who sanctify G-d's Name and the Jewish religion by making efforts to describe the contrast between Judaism and the abominable Zionist idolatry!! Check out all the websites:
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com
http://www.nkusa.org
http://www.netureikartauk.org
http://www.jewsnotzionists.org

Unfortunately "Bais Yisroel" doesn't know what he is talking about. First of all, numbers of adherents is not ipso facto evidence of truth or falsehood. At the time of the prophet Elijah there were only 7000 Jews who did not worship the Baal. There were many similar cases in Jewish history. Religious Zionists always lack arguments, so all they can resort to doing is hurling insults. Argumentum ad hominem is a very poor way of winning an argument.

Yet his essential point is sound: the large majority of those who consider themselves the adherents of Judaism don't have a theological problem with the existence of the state of Israel. The existence of very Orthodox parties in the Knesset is evidence of that. The Neturai Karta have the opinion that the rest of the Jews are doing it wrong and they are doing it right. They're entitled to that opinion. So are you. But we are not required to agree with it.

The problem I have is that those who cast about for any imaginable reason to attack Zionism tend to latch onto the Neturai Karta as posterboys, and say "Look! _Real_ Jews aren't Zionists." That's a fantastically arrogant -- not to mention unsupportable -- claim to make. The Neturai Karta doesn't have some magical right to declare who's a _real_ "Torah True" Jew and who isn't, and someone who isn't knowledgable of the intricate interconnections between most forms of mainstream Judaism and Zionism simply isn't in a position to point to the NK and say, "See? Look at what _the real Jews_ think."

@%<

Gehrig, you are missing the point. The issue NK are presenting to the world is the position of the greatest rabbis of the 20th century who understood the sins and dangers of Zionism as a heretical belief system. Please check the websites, that may help to clarify some questions you may have.

The point is that Zionism is neither completely identical to nor completely distinct from Judaism. The Neturai Karta have a sectarian position they believe is correct but does not speak authoritatively for all of Judaism (although it seems to claim to). The folks in Shas or the NRP also have a sectarian position. The two don't agree. And that's not even getting into Conservative, Reform, or Reconstructionist Judaism. My "world's greatest rabbis" list may not be your "world's greatest rabbis" list, which in turn may not be the "world's greatest rabbis" list of a third person who is just as pious as you are.

@%<

Dave,

I suggest that you learn a bit more about Judaism. If you were even remotely familiar with Judaism, you would know that someone who calls herself "bas yisroel" is a woman. The Hebrew is very, very simple.

Neturei Karta are an extreme, tiny, and noisy minority within Torah Judaism. However, there is something they are not telling you. They believe, as you probably have read, that Jews must wait for the Messiah before returning to Israel. What they are not telling you is how they believe that when the Messiah comes, all the Jews of the world will return to live in Israel, regardless of whether or not other people are living there. What shall be done with the Palestinians when this happens? They don't say. My guess is that they expect that the Messiah will kick them out.

There are many problems with selecting a random religious sect and using it to support ones ideology. Religious sects are for the most part based off irrational beliefs tied to events in the distant past or future (or based off beliefs in an afterlife). One can't reason with a group that believes that God gave them land or that God told them to stay away from a certain land.

In the case of Israel, the conflict has little if anything to do with religion on either side. Zionism has had religious overtones at times but Herzl wrote primarily as a member of a discriminated against minority group and even looked at locations for a Jewish homeland outside of the Middle East. Most Palestinians are angry at Israel for direct reasons (bulldozed houses, murdered or arrested relatives, poverty in refugee camps...) and most settlers in the West Bank were encouraged to settle for economic reasons (and Sharon's reason behind settlements have more to do with a buffer zone than religion).

Zionism is similar to the “Back To Africa” movement in the US in the 1800s and early 1900s. Would one be racist for having opposed the creation of Liberia. I guess it would depend on ones objections, but if the complaint focused on previous inhabitants I would guess the charge would have made as little sense as the current charges of anti-Semitism for those who question how Israel was founded. But Liberia exists today and so does Israel so opposing the current states would make little sense; where would the former slaves who make up the upper classes of Liberia go today if they were told the forcible creation of the Liberian state by the US military (Monroe used a few warships) was unjustified.

The conflict in Israel is a recent one. Anti-Semitism is old but the specific newer forms in the Middle East are at oldest from the time of the Young Turk rebellion (its interesting to note that even such horrible European texts as the Protocols of the Elders of Zion were only put into mass circulation after Henry Ford started printing them up and mass distributing them in teh early 1900s). If the conflict in the Middle East were about Islam and Judaism, one would hear more about the nonIslamic Palestinian leaders (the PA leadership contains Christians) and local nonIslamic leaders like Assad (see http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/islam/countries/bl_SyriaAlawi.htm ).

Finding a Jewish group that uses Judaism to confront Israel’s policies might be useful in that it makes clear the distinction between disagreeing with a state and disagreeing with a religion (of course this is obvious to Israelis). But its not THAT useful or helpful if a small sect opposes the state of Israel for primarilly nonmoralistic religious reasons (which strangely were a mainstay of European Jewish thought pre1800s). Arguing against the occupation with someone very proIsrael may make one wonder at the source of anger and accusations of antiSemitism when any criticism of the government is brought up. But, one would notice the same types of arguments if one argued with a Serbian during their occupation of Bosnia or if one argues today with an Indonesian nationalist about Ache. Nationalism and fear-mongering are the roots of most conflicts and religion is at most a cover.

I am proud to say I am part of the group who organized Sunday's protest of "Boston Celebrates Israel." That group is called the New England Committee to Defend Palestine (NECDP). The Naturi Karta marched with us, Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, atheists, as well as people of many ethnic backgrounds. The NK can call themself whatever they want, they made the post. They can put forth their reasons for rejecting Israel and the conquest that is the result of Zionism. They, as we do, understand that rejecting Zionism does not mean rejecting Jewish people. And rejecting Zionism is the opposite of anti-semitic, because after all, PALESTINIANS ARE SEMITES!!! It is the Zionists who are actually anti-Semitic. (It seems Zionists want to appropriate that ethnicity for Jews only just as they hope to appropriate Historic Palestine to be a land for Jews only.) In any case, our group, NECDP, calls for a single democratic secular nation in all of historic Palestine where all people have freedom of religion, democratic participation, and where all refugees have their UN Declaration of Human Rights promised "right of return" realized. In the meanwhile, we support the right of Palestinians to resist the occupation of their lands, just as the UN Declaration guarantees them. Which of you who claim to reject anti-Semitism think Palestinians are entitled to less rights than the European Zionists who wrongfully and murderously colonized their land? Why does a Jewish person from Ukraine or an Incan convert to Judiasm have the right to "return" to a land that they are not from, meanwhile, Palestinians who were driven out over the past 55 years have no such right? The answer is simple: ethno-religious superemacy. In short: racism.

NECDP is a secular, non-sectarian group. We are collectively motivated by the crazy idea that Palestinians are just as human as any other group of people and therefore, we can not stand by and watch their rights be trampled upon, particularly since we are paying via our taxes to arm the racist state of Israel in its terror campaign against them.


Zionism IS anti-Semitism!
Zionism is racism!

In hope,

Aimee

Please go to our website for more on our principles and for
links to other good site.

And please work to end all military, economic, and political support for the racist colonial Zionist project called Israel!

Since there are some 5,000,000 or so Israels in Israel now to have peace we should agree that they have a right to exist, but there are millions of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza (some of them refugees because they lost their land and homes in Israel, the least that can be done is to allow them to have a Palestinian State with Reasonable Borders.
for Possible solution where both sides win:
CLICK HERE > http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1618616.php
Most reasonable people know that the Holocaust occurred and that it was a terrible atrocity and they feel for the people who had to suffer.
But the Palestinian People had nothing to do with that Holocaust and therefore should not be punished for it.

"Zionism means supporting israel's existence."

Herzl, the founder of Zionism, supported a Jewish state to decrease anti-Semitism. He specifically talked about settling in an area where Jews would be accepted. So to equate Zionism with support for Israel as a state is misleading. On the other hand, Herzl's stated desire for a Jewish state to preserve Jewish culture doesnt fit with the ideas of many Israelis. Its posible to be both proIsrael and nonZionist and antiIsrael and Zionist.

"Being anti-zionist means hoping that the arabs who want to destroy israel make it happen and slaughter the jews en mass. There's no in-between."
Aside from being wrong from the standpoint of a real definition of Zionism this is also wrong in terms of the definition given to the word Zionism in the Arab press. In Arab newspapers (many of which ARE antiSemitic) Zionism is always defined as the racist belief in Jews as a master race (and the belief that Jewish lives are worth more than nonJewish lives); this is of course by definition racist. Almost all people outside of Israel in the Middle East would probably consider themselves antiZionist since for people in that region Zionism is defined by the Israeli far right. I would bet that of those who consider themselves antiZionist, many would ALSO accept the continuation of Israel as a Jewish state.

Words get thrown around a lot and can develop many meanings. Zionism in the late 1800s and early 1900s was a well defined movement that received only marginal support from most Jews. Zionism as of the founding of Israel was redefined by some as support for the state (or even the government) of Israel. In the Arab world it came to symbolize the beliefs of the most racist elements in Israeli society who wish to treat Arabs as second class citizens and who want a larger state that includes the West Bank and Gaza. Since the meaning of words change over time (English is not a fixed language) none of these definitions can truely be said to be wrong and its entirely possible for someone to be an antiZionist under one definition while a Zionist under another.

It would probably be more constructive if people stated their actual beliefs rather than using the words ZIonist or antiZionist. One's feelings on moving all Jews out of Europe (Herzls defition), one's feelings on the need for a Jewish state in the Middle East, one's feelings on how Isreal was created, one's beliefs about Israels "right to exist as a Jewish state", one's belief on Israel's "right to exist", one's beliefs on Israels right to rule the West Bank and Gaza, and one's views of Israels present policies need not all be the same.

>ANGEL to Uhh

This refers to a comment that was removed because it wrtitten by "Uhh," who is banned.

I erred, misreading it BAIS instead of BAS. Satisfied?? You have not read my point about the ipso facto issue of majority versus minority.......

Good points, Aimee! Indeed, Jews had no better friends over the past 1000+ years than Arabs!! Ask any elder from Yemen, Morocco or Iraq! The Yemenite Jews were deceived into coming to the Zionist Paradise and then had their children and passports taken away from them. Many of them desperately wanted to return to Yemen but couldn't. They cried about what they found. So did Jews from Iraq and from the Caucasus. Zionism is a despicable abomination that strikes at the heart of Jewish morality. May its end be swift and peaceful.

Except that everything has a definition. The definition of Zionism is an ethnocratic ideology that sought to establish itself against the historical traditions of Judaism and on the backs of the Palestinians. The Zionists did not move backward for the 50 years they promoted their idea prior to the establishment of their State.

The Jews never had better friends than the Arabs for 1000 years? The Arabs regarded Jews as "dhimmi", second-class citizens. Jews were forbidden to even ride horses, so that they wouldn't be taller than Muslims. They were required to pay special taxes. After 1948, hundreds of thousands of Jews were ethnically cleansed form the "friendly" Arab countries they had lived in for centuries. Pogroms, and blood libels, happened in Arab countries as well as European countries, although less frequently in the former. In essence, Arabs treated Jews like American whites treated African-Americans under Jim Crow. If that's what you call 'friendship', than you might want to get your head examined.
Regarding Neturei Karta: the fact they they are a tiny minorty means that the majority of the Torah world is definately signifigant. Supposing you had a a medical problem and you went to a hundred doctors. If 99% of the doctors tell you to undergoe and operation or die, and 1% tell you not to undergoe the operation, will you rely on the 1%? The Torah world. which includes thousands of Torah scholars, has rejected the position of Neturei Karta.

The truth is not determend by the number of people ..... it is always indipendant, it requires a lot of courage to state the truth regardless of our personal interests.
In the case of Naturi Karta, the reference they are to be judged by is the old testement, where it will appear to be surprisingly true!!
Such a fact is also true from the angle of the Quran!!!

Genreally speaking, the number of people who support an idea is no indication of how correct the idea is. However, when a majority of EXPERTS agree on a subject, it is an indication that they are probably right. Since the majority of Torah scholars reject Neturei Karta's position, they are probably right.

See, Bas, the way this message board works is that anti-israel people, no matter how off base they may be, get to post articles. Then, anyone who agrees with them in hating on israel gets to comment. People who use facts, history and logic to counter the article or the initial articles, the editors here delete the comments. They do this because they don't care about facts, reality or balance, they only care about spewing idiotic shit about israel, and they want to defend the arab world as much as possible, even if it means making the most evil lunatics seem nicer than they really are.

What you just posted about the jewish existence in the vast majority of the arab world is correct, but if we tried to post an article about this, the editors would delete it. They seek to crush the voice of any jews here who do not rant anti-israel stuff, unless you post after about 5 responses have been posted, then they usually leave the comments alone.

I don't sense this forum was intended as a proselytyzing agent, but of course, most such forums WILL nonetheless attract some commentary of that sort. I , myself (and ex-wife) converted to Reform Judiasm for a time, essentially in quest of a liberal spiritual medium. The rabbi at the time was essentially athiest. So it is with Judaism... and Jews - as many flavors as ice cream. Those that associate themselves more with the traditions, customs - formal and otherwise - first of all, are the type of Jewry I see on the active front of of the Zionist-antiZionist rift within Jewry. Most people probably see "race" as a factor in that regard. I would posit that calling pro-Zionist Jews anti-semitic,/anti-Judaism is somewhat analgous to calling American Catholics that practice birth control anti-Catholic - some take their religion very seriously, some don't, but you can find birth control in either camp, the Papal stance notwithstanding. Obviously, the bulk of Jewry today is pro-Zionist and any change in the status of Israel's existence is a non-issue, the torrid emotions, deeds of antithetical factions notwithstanding..... lest it be via a grand Armageddon, indeed! What to do? Force the issue into peace, which to some extent, the road work has been started. Clearly, this is "grievance day" and soon must follow formal, uneqivocal resolution for the world at large. Some Jews - and more "Palestinians"- will never be happy about a final resolution, but it must happen. Time for reasonable considerations of the Palestinians to be evaluated in earnst, and the finality to be hammered into history by world authority. Exactly what body must be the judge depends on how high "appealed," presumably the U.N. being the "High Court." This MUST be done, people, and should have been long ago!