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Israel's Conditions for Road Map Acceptance: Same Old Shit

by CNTRINTLGNCE
Suicide bombs do not sabotage the peace process -- suicide bombs attempt to call attention to that which the major corporate media does not report. Specifically, the "road map" which is being portrayed as a step forward is nothing but the same old shit with a new name. Look at these conditions and tell me this is any different than the last decade.
(preconditions for israel's acceptance of the u.s.-sponsored road map)

Statement from the Prime Minister's Bureau, as released by Israel's Government Press Office:

A. The Government of Israel, today (Sunday),25 .5.03, considered the Prime Minister's statement on the Roadmap, as well as Israel's comments on its implementation. Following its deliberations, the Government, by a majority vote, resolved:

Based on the 23 May 2003 statement of the United States Government, in which the United States committed to fully and seriously address Israel's comments to the Roadmap during the implementation phase, the Prime Minister announced on 23 May 2003 that Israel has agreed to accept the steps set out in the Roadmap.

The Government of Israel affirms the Prime Minister's announcement, and resolves that all of Israel's comments, as addressed in the Administration's statement, will be implemented in full during the implementation phase of the Roadmap.

A list of the comments forwarded by Israel for the review of the Administration in the United States has been attached to this decision.

B. The Government also resolved, concerning the issue of the refugees, as follows: The Government of Israel today accepted the steps set out in the Roadmap. The Government of Israel expresses its hope that the political process that will commence, in accordance with the 24 June 2002 speech of President Bush, will bring security, peace and reconciliation between Israel and the Palestinians.

The Government of Israel further clarifies that, both during and subsequent to the political process, the resolution of the issue of the refugees will not include their entry into or settlement within the State of Israel.

====
The Roadmap: Primary Themes of Israel's Remarks

1. Both at the commencement of and during the process, and as a condition to its continuance. calm will be maintained. The Palestinians will dismantle the existing security organizations and implement security reforms during the course of which new organizations will be formed and act to combat terror, violence and incitement (incitement must cease immediately and the Palestinian Authority must educate for peace). These organizations will engage in genuine prevention of terror and violence through arrests, interrogations, prevention and the enforcement of the legal groundwork for investigations, prosecution and punishment. In the first phase of the plan and as a condition for progress to the second phase, the Palestinians will complete the dismantling of terrorist organizations (Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the Popular Front, the Democratic Front Al-Aqsa Brigades and other apparatuses) and their infrastructure, collection of all illegal weapons and their transfer to a third party for the sake of being removed from the area and destroyed., cessation of weapons smuggling and weapons production inside the Palestinian Authority, activation of the full prevention apparatus and cessation of incitement. There will be no progress to the second phase without the fulfillment of all above-mentioned conditions relating to the war against terror. The security plans to be implemented are the Tenet and Zinni plans. [As in the other mutual frameworks. the Roadmap will not state that Israel must cease violence and incitement against the Palestinians].

2. Full performance will be a condition for progress between phases and for progress within phases. The first condition for progress will be the complete cessation of terror, violence and incitement. Progress between phases will come only following the full implementation of the preceding phase. Attention will be paid not to timelines, but to performance benchmarks (timelines will serve only as reference points).

3. The emergence of a new and different leadership in the Palestinian Authority within the framework of governmental reform. The formation of a new leadership constitutes a condition for progress to the second phase of the plan. In this framework, elections will be conducted for the Palestinian Legislative Council following coordination with Israel.

4. The Monitoring mechanism will be under American management. The chief verification activity will concentrate upon the creation of another Palestinian entity and progress in the civil reform process within the Palestinian Authority. Verification will be performed exclusively on a professional basis and per issue (economic, legal, financial) without the existence of a combined or unified mechanism. Substantive decisions will remain in the hands of both parties.

5. The character of the provisional Palestinian state will be determined through negotiations between the Palestinian Authority and Israel. The provisional state will have provisional borders and certain aspects of sovereignty, be fully demilitarized with no military forces, but only with police and internal security forces of limited scope and armaments, be without the authority to undertake defense alliances or military cooperation, and Israeli control over the entry and exit of all persons and cargo, as well as of its air space and electromagnetic spectrum.

6. In connection to both the introductory statements and the final settlement, declared references must be made to Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state and to the waiver of any right of return for Palestinian refugees to the State of Israel.

7. End of the process will lead to the end of all claims and not only the end of the conflict.

8. The future settlement will be reached through agreement and direct negotiations between the two parties, in accordance with the vision outlined by President Bush in his 24 June address.

9. There will be no involvement with issues pertaining to the final settlement. Among issues not to be discussed: settlement in Judea, Samaria and Gaza (excluding a settlement freeze and illegal outposts), the status of the Palestinian Authority and its institutions in Jerusalem, and all other matters whose substance relates to the final settlement.

10. The removal of references other than 242 and 338 (1397, the Saudi Initiative and the Arab Initiative adopted in Beirut). A settlement based upon the Roadmap will be an autonomous settlement that derives its validity therefrom. The only possible reference should be to Resolutions 242 and 338 , and then only as an outline for the conduct of future negotiations on a permanent settlement.

11. Promotion of the reform process in the Palestinian Authority: a transitional Palestinian constitution will be composed, a Palestinian legal infrastructure will be constructed and cooperation with Israel in this field will be renewed. In the economic sphere: international efforts to rehabilitate the Palestinian economy will continue. In the financial sphere: the American-Israeli-Palestinian agreement will be implemented in full as a condition for the continued transfer of tax revenues.

12. The deployment of IDF forces along the September 2000 lines will be subject to the stipulation of Article 4 (absolute quiet) and will be carried out in keeping with changes to be required by the nature of the new circumstances and needs created thereby. Emphasis will be placed on the division of responsibilities and civilian authority as in September2000 , and not on the position of forces on the ground at that time.

13. Subject to security conditions, Israel will work to restore Palestinian life to normal: promote the economic situation, cultivation of commercial connections, encouragement and assistance for the activities of recognized humanitarian agencies. No reference will be made to the Bertini Report as a binding source document within the framework of the humanitarian issue.

14. Arab states will assist the process through the condemnation of terrorist activity. No link will be established between the Palestinian track and other tracks (Syrian-Lebanese).
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Comments (Hide Comments)
by counterintelligence
... their continued support for genocidal settlements.
which hardly ever seems mentioned anywhere.
by Angie
The road map (who coined this outrageous phrase anyway??) will not work because right from the beginning Israel is laying down conditions. Change this, change that., add this, add that. If Palestine authorities had said that, it would be, oh, we knew they didn't want peace.

Naturally there's the old standby -- we're not agreeing to anything until Palestine "reigns in its terrorists."

Well, I hope the Palestinians will emphatically declare we will when Israel stops killing our people on a daily basis, taking our lands, our farms, our livelihood, keeping us prisoners in our own land with damn roadblocks, etc., etc.
by Naturally Here's the old standby
well that was cirtanly as original as it was unexpected

This is called the false-premise arguement.. usually chatracterized by the declaration "they obviously " and then continues to build on it.


One thing is certain when dealing with this conflict. Israel will behave just as we expect them to. The more things change, indeed.
by way to go
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha !
Angie ;duchess of diatribe



which agency are you working for?
by Hey
The nerve.

Israel insists that it's citizens stop being blown up.

I mean, gosh! What's wrong with them? Don't they know it's the Palestinians' god given right to murder Jews?

And the IMC's indisputed duty to cheer 'em on?
by ANGEl
The Road Map will Fail because it does not start with reasonable Borders for the Palestinian State...
If we really want Peace the U.S., European Union, the UN, and Russia have to do something definite now.
Otherwise for one reason or another the Road Map will fail.
Example:
Set the Borders back to 1967...
In return the Refugees have no Right of Return..
The Refugees can be helped to settle somewhere in the new Palestinian State..
The Settlements are now part of Palestine...
If the some 400,000 Israeli Settlers living in Palestine do not like living there they can move to Israel...
If the 1,000,000 or so Palestinians who now live in Israel do not like living in Israel they can move to Palestine...
If 1,000,000 or so Palestinians can live in Israel, then some 400,000 Israeli Settlers can live in Palestine if they choose to stay..
If you take Israel, West Bank and Gaza, West Bank and Gaza is only 22% of the total area in Question, This small amount is not to much to ask for millions of Palestinians who must have their freedom to have a peaceful life.
If this solution was implemented there is a good chance the so called terrorist (really freedom fighters) would stop their fight, if not they would be very foolish because then Israel would have a just cause to fight back and the U.S. would have a just cause to help Israel fight back.
Otherwise we have:
Israel: We have to confiscate Palestinian land and demolish Palestinian homes because there are suicide bombers???
Palestine: We have to defend ourselves because Israel is slowly confiscating all our land and demolishing our homes. We have no military to defend ourselves and our land. If we do nothing, we will soon have nothing at all???
For details on possible solution:
CLICK HERE > http://dc.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=64554&group=webcast
by the view
And as Palestinians openly engage in terrorism it has proven its self an out law state and not capable of self rule. above and beyond that fact, Palestine is not a real country. is occupies Israeli land. which nullifies their claim to being at war. this makes the p.l.o. and Palestinians collaborators international criminals.
by Anti-Zionist
Israel has the Pals pinned down like a woman being raped, and they have the chutzpah to dermand that the Palestinians stop resisting them!

The fact is that the Pals can't take any effective action at all, and that Dick Cheney and George Bush have dinner with Zionist racial supremacists three nights a week.

All this crap about a roadmap! You'd think everything would be A-OK if we could all learn to navigate Yellowstone National Park. What a barrel of baloney.

The "roadmap" is nothing more than a temporary frame to hold up the status quo. The US is aiding and abetting Israel even as it runs the world's largest concentration camp in Gaza, and kills through direct (bullets, missiles, bulldozers) and indirect (starvation, denial of health care, demoralization) methods.

Next time I see a Elie Wiesel carrying on about the Holocaust I am going to barf, because he supports the same measures against the Palestinians that he decries when taken against Jews,

It's time to put an end to American complicity in this horror, time to stop worrying about the Zionist slurs, time to stand up like real men and women, and time to call a spade a spade.

If we had half the guts of a 12 year old Palestinian girl, we could stop this tomorrow.
by amma
if this is right and Palestine has no land then they cannot have a country, so it would stand that if you have no country you cannot be at war.
And if you cannot declare war (without a country) then
how would you explain your actions, it would be similar to the talaban, yes?
by Anti-Zionist
"if this is right and Palestine has no land then they cannot have a country, so it would stand that if you have no country you cannot be at war.
And if you cannot declare war (without a country) then
how would you explain your actions, it would be similar to the talaban, yes?"

Kind of like the Warsaw Ghetto, right? They didn't have a country, so they must have been terrorists.

From that reasoning , it follows that the Nazis did the right thing, doesn't it?
by easy
Self defense against an imperialist aggresor.
by in fact
most of the world calls it terrorisom

"the Palestinian population is a major cause of the bitterness and hatred that has enveloped the region"
-AMERICAN SOCIALIST PARTY
by Anti-Zionist
"most of the world calls it terrorisom

"the Palestinian population is a major cause of the bitterness and hatred that has enveloped the region"
-AMERICAN SOCIALIST PARTY"

Since when is the ASP "most of the world?" What a joke!

Anyway, informed people know that many of the neocons used to be Trotskyite socialists (like the SWP) before they revealed their true colors and became Zionist supremacists. In light of that, how could you trust a Trotskyite organization?

Enough of these Zionist front organizations! It's easy enough to see through the BS if only you scratch the surface.
by Scottie
Warsaw is in poland.. ie polish.
Poland was taking in a war that was to continue until the nazi (propper) ceased to exist.
this analogy is relevant if you imagine the situation if the palistinians were to gain the advantage over the jews in open war. then the jews would represent the polish (or the jews) and the palistinians would represent the NAZI.
going on from that yes the palistinians would be in the wrong. especially when they started stoning jews to death as suggested in the hamas charter.
by Anti-Zionist
"anti-zionist: you're an insane freak. Your opinions are laughable. Are you aware of what a joke you are?"

In all my personal confrontations with Zionists (mostly at pro-Pal demos), not one has laughed. Usually they scream or yell hysterical threats and insults, and sometimes they try to incite violence. But as for laughing, I've never seen one laugh at the anti-Zionist message yet. Actually, I would prefer laughing over the threats, but you can't have it all your way.

If you want to laugh, that's fine by me. Laugh away to your hearts content. But when I think of what happened to Rachel Corrie, it just doesn't seem funny.
by Anti-Zionist
"Our of all the pro-Pal people I've seen at protests, not one of them laughed either. They screamed death threats, carried swastikas, and bemoaned how HItler didn't kill enough Jews.

Best of all, they got furious if you attempted to engage in discourse, and would scream that they were being harrassed, even as they pushed and bullied their way through the crowd.

Kinda like you."

Now that's kind of funny. That description of pro-Pal demos is so inaccurate that it injects some humor into this debate.

I have never seen Swastikas at a pro-Pal rally, nor have I heard anyone talking about killing Jews.

I did go to a screening of "Jenin, Jenin" at a local college that had to hire a couple of cops for security because Zionists had threatened to disrupt it.

I have had to step between a screaming Zionist man and an 18 year-old girl because I was afraid he would hit her for holding a pro-Palestine sign (he backed off).

I have never seen pro-Pal demonstrators ever push, assault, or threaten anyone. On the other hand, the Zionists engage in these tactics frequently. They work themselves into a frenzy by yelling "nazi," then they really go nuts. Frequently, they have to be hauled off by cops.
by Scottie
Strangly when I go to pro palistinian rallies I find only the pro palistinian people are yelling and getting hot in the head.
last time when a jewish lady and I who went to the organizers to debate their biased (if not racist) propoganda we were perfrectly calm and rational but for some reason they started shouting and calling us names. they were left standing there with red faces (from yelling) while I and the only half reasonable organizer discusses the finer pionts of the origin of israel.
by Anti-Zionist
"Strangly when I go to pro palistinian rallies I find only the pro palistinian people are yelling and getting hot in the head.
last time when a jewish lady and I who went to the organizers to debate their biased (if not racist) propoganda we were perfrectly calm and rational but for some reason they started shouting and calling us names. they were left standing there with red faces (from yelling) while I and the only half reasonable organizer discusses the finer pionts of the origin of israel."

Look Scottie, this guy calling himself "Adolf Hitler" is proving my point right here on this board. It's a real pain in the ass when you have to deal with these types in person, as I have had to on a few occasions.

If you refuse to look at the problem, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
by ANGEL
In the mid 1800s there were fewer then 6000 Jewish People in the area now know as Israel, West Bank and Gaza The reason for the 5,000,000 or so Jewish people living there today is because they Grandparents came from Russia, Germany and other European Countries. Where as the Palestinian were living there whether it was called the Ottoman Empire or the British Mandate. If the Israelis can be Entitled to 78% of what is now Israel, West Bank and Gaza, the Palestinians both Muslim and Christians who have lived in this area for hundreds of years should be allowed to have 22% which is the whole of West Bank and Gaza. It is a matter of doing what is just and right.
You cannot have peace when what is being done is a great injustice.
by Scottie
Actually Im not surprised we have opposite experiences on this

irrational pro terrorists probably dont seem irrational until they have someone like me to have a good argument with

and irrational nazi probably dont seem irrational until you meet them on the street protesting for gay rights or whatever.

they are perfectly happy pretending to be gurus sitting around with people who mostly believe their philosophy until they meet someone with the stubborness to prove them wrong.
by ANGEL
When the Nazi in Germany were defeated back in 1945 There was a West and East German and later in the 1990s there was a reunited Germany, Therefore the German People have a country.
The Palestinian People should be allowed to have their Country so that they may live in Peace and not under the Occupation and Oppression of Israel. If this was not a just cause. there would not even be the so called Road Map.
For a Solution where both sides would win:
The Palestinian People would have their State, and Israel would not have to take in all the Refugees in question.
Click Here > http://dc.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=64554&group=webcast
by What would you do???
What would you do???

If I broke into your home.....
pointed a gun at you, your wife, your kids....
and told everyone to just get the fuck out....
this is my house now....
HAHAHA......

How do you suppose you would feel? Hmmmm.....
I suppose that's what the Palestinians are feeling though.
by Scottie
I certainly would not go and kill the 5th cousin of the person who did it to me. That would be ridiculous
but they seem to think that makes sense.
by Zionist myths are all Americans know
Angie wrote:
--"Well, I hope the Palestinians will emphatically declare we will [stop] when Israel stops killing our people on a daily basis, taking our lands, our farms, our livelihood, keeping us prisoners in our own land with damn roadblocks, etc., etc."

That is the genius of pro-Israeli propaganda, that an otherwise knowledgable person is kept unaware that even the most militant Palestinian organizations have said exactly that. Even the most militant Palestinian groups are more reasonable than the Israeli government. Both Hamas and Jihad have said that they would stop their violence if Israel stopped the daily violence against Palestinians.
by Brian
And the fact tha people like you actually believe the statements coming from (HAMAS, ISLAMIC JIHAD) is the funniest thing I have heard today.
by JB
On May 23, just a week ago, the official newspaper of the supposedly reformed Palestinian Authority carried a front-page picture of the latest suicide bomber dressed in suicide-bomber regalia. It then referred to the place where she did her murdering as "occupied Afula.'' The town of Afula is in Israel's Galilee. It is not occupied. It is not in the West Bank or Gaza. It is within Israel. If Afula is occupied, then Tel Aviv is occupied, Haifa is occupied, and Israel's very existence is a crime.

This bit of incitement and delegitimation was, to my knowledge, reported in not a single American newspaper. It is simply too routine. It is the everyday stuff of Palestinian newspapers and television, schoolbooks, and sermons. Appearing, however, after the Palestinians had presumably adopted new leadership committed to (1) ending terrorism and (2) accepting Israel, this outrage caught the eye of Robert Satloff of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy. Satloff brought it to American attention, noting that "It is difficult to imagine a more chilling message to Israelis who doubt Palestinian commitment to a two-state solution."

President Bush, engaging his personal prestige in the Arab-Israeli peace process, is headed to Middle East summits in Egypt and Jordan. He is in danger, however, of heading straight back to Oslo, that eight-year exercise in delusion and self-deception that led to the bloodiest fighting between Israelis and Palestinians in 50 years. Dennis Ross, chief US negotiator through the Oslo process, has admitted that one of the great failings of Oslo was the willful refusal of both Americans and Israelis hungry for peace to confront Palestinian violations of the agreements, most notably the incitement to kill Jews and the constant propaganda delegitimizing Israel's right to exist.

There was some hope for change when Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen) became Palestinian prime minister and spoke of ending the violence and accepting Israel. But as of now, Abbas has done nothing. And just this week Yasser Arafat demonstrated who is the real boss of the Palestinians when he deliberately forced a postponement of a summit meeting between Abbas and Ariel Sharon.

Until Abbas is in control, the US president's visit will constitute a reward for nothing more than cosmetic reform.

THE ONLY logic of Bush's visit is that perhaps a photo-op with the president of the United States will elevate Abbas and give him the authority to do what he has to do. But the premise of the president's Middle East policy, announced June 24, 2002, was that the United States would help the Palestinians achieve statehood in response to real Palestinian reform, not just words.

Moreover, the road map for peace, which the Palestinians say they have accepted, explicitly demands of the Palestinian leadership "sustained, targeted, and effective operations aimed at confronting all those engaged in terror and dismantlement of terrorist capabilities and infrastructure."

Abbas is talking very differently. His objective, he says, is to persuade the suicide bombing specialists Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the al-Aksa Martyrs Brigades to accept a temporary cease-fire. This would be a disaster for any prospect of peace. It means that the terrorists who have been hunted down by Israel ever since it finally decided to strike back after the Passover massacre of 2002 would receive immediate sanctuary time to rebuild, regroup, rearm, and prepare for the next, more deadly orgy of violence.

If what Abbas means by "peace" is that the terrorists just lie low for a while, then it is not a peace of the brave but a peace of the knave.

If that is what President Bush accepts as "peace," he not only will have betrayed Israel, he will have doomed American policy because he will have ratified a prescription for continued and much more bloody violence.

The requirements of a successful summit are clear. Abbas has to take real steps to curb terror. Let him begin in just one city. Israel will withdraw, but only if Abbas asserts authority and actually goes after the terrorists in that town. No revolving-door arrests. No temporary cease-fire. Nothing less than "sustained ... operations aimed at ... dismantlement of terrorist capabilities and infrastructure."

And Abbas has to do something even simpler: Stop official Palestinian media from extolling suicide bombers. Stop official Palestinian media from referring to Israel as occupied territory. Talk about peace in Arabic, not just in English the way Anwar Sadat did 25 years ago. Israel reciprocated then; it will reciprocate now. Without such elemental steps by Abbas, however, no peace is possible and the new Bush peace initiative will amount to nothing more than Oslo redux.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1054441235991

by Justice
One of the conditions of the Oslo Agreement of 1993 was that there would be a halt to Jewish settlements. As we speak, ten years later, the settlements are still being erected, not just in violation of Oslo, but the Fourth Geneva Convention as well.
by no excuses
>If Afula is occupied, then Tel Aviv is occupied, Haifa is occupied, and Israel's very existence is a crime.

You got that right.

Only a secular, democratic society is not a crime.

Israel is a racist theocracy, founded by, and based on, the ethnic cleansing of Palsetine. Ethnic cleansing is a war crime. Sharon makes Tudjman and Milosovic look like Mother Theresa.
by That's Arafat.
Heh. Sure.

Palestinain... democratic... Secular...

Which word doesn't belong in the line above?

by Angie
Gwynne Dyer, world renowned author, columnist, military analyst, with a degree in Middle East history, in 1982-83 filmed a documentary entitled "War". It was a seven part series and won numerous accolades, and was seen in 45 countries.

Part 3 of that series was entitled "The Profession of Arms", and it dealt exclusively with Israel. Dr. Dyer went to Israel to meet and talk with various individuals. It is a terrific documentary and if anyone gets an opportunity to see it, I suggest you do so.

I always think of it as an excellent insight into Israeli history.
by Scottie
Even the most militant Palestinian groups are more reasonable than the Israeli government. Both Hamas and Jihad have said that they would stop their violence if Israel stopped the daily violence against Palestinians.

- somehow I find it hard to reconsile when they say "we will make peace if they stop occuopying our territiries" to our media
and when they say ..... we will kill every jew until they hide behind trees and everyone points them out and tells us to kill them (the quote is wrong but that is the jist) in their charter.
somehow I think they are more likely to lie to the media than to themselves.
I'm sorry, I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here. Is this something I said? I don't remember chattering about Hamas (well, I did in a joking fashion last night on this board) but not today and certainly that comment you made wasn't one of mine.

In any event, I have heard that the lads are prepared to give peace a chance (sorry, John Lennon!) but I haven't had time today to check BBC World or CBC News World (Canada), two half decent news stations and see where we all are.

by Scottie
Sorry it wasn't you..
er I guess appologies

As to them playing nice well...
debka - (not that I consider them all that more reliable than john pilger) - said somthing about them offering to not kill jews quite as quickly with siucide bombers and stop doing somthing else.. hmm I guess Ill take what I can get but dont be surprised if I dont throw them a party.
§x
by A1
don't throw them a party on their own garden...

go home and evacuate their territory,,, don't throw anything....thanks
by Scottie
how many people are there in hamas (and what countries do they come from) and when did they suddenly become lord and masters of all palestine?
Do you really think being palistinian is a prerequisite for being in hamas?
You have become confused and mistaken "muslim" for "palistinian".
by Todd
The Palestinians send their children to their deaths to make media propaganda points. Real nations care about their young. The PLO and its allied Islamic organizations practice child sacrifice under the guise of martyrdom.

The PLO has no morals, national or otherwise. Their sole motivation is to instill hate from one generation to the next. The PLO has brought nothing but misery to its followers. The Palestinians know nothing of the creation of beauty, engage in no serious scholarship, and pass nothing of greatness down the ages. Their legacy is purely of destruction.

The Palestinian leaders and their factotums are totally corrupt, stealing every penny of public money they can lay their hands on. No one seriously accepts that financial aid will actually reach the people. And no one will make a business investment in the Palestinians because of the payoffs and bribes involved in setting up shop. And for what? A business that will be shut down or destroyed by terrorism and civil war? The PLO's strong-arm tactics have brought in just enough protection money to buy arms and pay the militias, but not enough honest funds to initiate a prosperous nation.

The PLO and its police torture people they don't like. They execute people without due process of law. Whatever Palestinian courts do exist, none do so to protect the rights of the accused. The PLO will not tolerate free expression and arrest and torture journalists who criticize the regime. The PLO offers no rights to women. Only among its followers in the Christian community, can women receive higher education and responsible jobs.

There is no Palestinian language.

There is no Palestinian religion.

Jerusalem is never mentioned in the Koran.

Mohammed never claimed he was in Jerusalem.

The Al Aqsa Mosque and Shrine Of Omar are built atop the ancient Jewish temples.

The Jews held sovereignty over Jerusalem for 1300 years; the Arabs, a mere fraction of the time.

There was never an Arab Palestinian nationalist movement until 1964.

The majority of "Palestinians" according to British demographic surveys arrived in Israel after 1917, seeking economic opportunities.

No one is offering to compensate the 800,000 Sephardic Jews whose assets were stolen when they were forced out of Arab countries in the 40s and 50s.

Israel took in their refugees, the Arabs kept their 500,000 in camps.

The Palestinians already have a nation, Jordan. There, the indigenous majority is ruled by Bedouin royalty from Saudi Arabia.

The Jordanians had control of the West Bank from 1948 to 1967 and never once offered it as a Palestinian state. Why not? The Egyptians held the Gaza Strip for much longer. Why didn't they create a Palestinian state if there were Palestinian people living there?

There is no ancient Palestinian history. There are no world renowned Palestinian artists, scientists, not one Palestinian literary masterpiece, no recognizable culture, no inventions... nothing that distinguishes Palestinians as a people.

They are neither a unique people, nor a separate people with their own history. The Palestinians do not deserve a nation because they are not a nation. Period.
by Scottie
suicide bombs attempt to call attention to that which the major corporate media does not report.

- just like the holocaust drew attention to germans grievances with money lenders.

yeah yeah killing lots of people is real cool way of drawing attention to issues.

just wait until someone uses that theory at the next election.

yes that is sarcasm
by anti-zionists jerk to thought of israel dying
Dude, you can't expect the "anti-zionists" here to comprehend sarcasm. It'll fly right above their nutty little heads.


by okey dokey
"how many people are there in hamas (and what countries do they come from) and when did they suddenly become lord and masters of all palestine? "

About two years ago when they started dictating Palestinian policy. No Palestinian exercises authority over Hamas. No one. Those who have tried, died.

Therefore, they are lord and masters of all palestine.
by ANGEL
There was once an American who I believe said
"Give me Freedom or Give me Death"
We honor these words.
But if the Palestinian Say I would rather die in this fight for freedom then be under the Occupation and Oppression of Israel.....It is see as very very very BAD...
Go Figure????????
by Scottie
If i say "he was wrong"
and "you have been brainwashed by the man"
because the "victor wrote the history books."
does that mean anything to you?

Besides that they threw tea into a harbour as opposed to suicide bombing - they were talking about a foreign power so to speak as opposed to one that only exists in the land over which they are fighting and finally israels "occupation" of palestine is of a much lesser order than englands "occupation" of USA as england charged taxes etc etc Israel just moves in and beats up the most relevant people it can find every time there is a suicide bomber.

if a leader says "give me liberty of give me death" what he actually means is "give me liberty or gve all those little soldiers and civilans there death."

Liberty is what your local leader screams out so that he can convince you that being controled by a ruler you ahve never met but comes from your country is better than one that you have never met who comes from another country.

In reality alll it achives is fragmenting states until they become too small to be viable. and killing thousands of people in the process.

ahh truly cynical I am
by F
ISRAELS' BRUTAL OCCUPATION OF PALESTINE IS LESS SEVERE THAN THE QUEEN OF ENGLANDS OCCUPATION OF THE COLONIES???
WHAT ABOUT THE MASSACRE OF THE NATIVE PEOPLE OF THE LAND BY THOSE WHO COINED THE TERM-

GIVE US LIBERTY OR GIVE US DEATH.

GIVE US OPPRESSION OR GIVE US LIBERTY, ANYWAY WE SHALL GRAB IT>><.
by Scottie
oh no I mean that Englands "occupation" was MORE than israels "occupation". I men they had more control over the USA than israel exerts over the PA

here is an interesting report of world oppinion on the USA

http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=185

you will notice that the arab countries wanted a bigger war in iraq (they were dissapointed by sthe resistance) and dont think israel and palestine can co exist.

OOHH here is the big one!!

71% think binladin is a man who can be trusted to do the right thing in palestine authority.

hmm thats a worry there

out of those countries kuwait niger ia and turkey seem to have at least somewhat rational views of the world and the others jordan, palestine etc seem to have lost the plot.
by .:'
Israel builds a seperation wall on other Peoples territory.

They have the audacity to murder inhabitants in their own home if they refuse to evacute their abode in a timely manner.

They think nothing of murdering internationals who come to guard the homes from illegal demolitions.

What else? this is just the top of the iceberg.

But we are focusing on englands occupation of the north amerikkkan continent...
by scottie
they set up amerikka (if you want to spell it with 3 ks.)
therefore it must be worse eh? even in your black vs white mind.

what a load of hoowey
-whatever you say much worse hapened to the indians and a ton of other people in history even some people right now..
by !
"-whatever you say much worse hapened to the indians and a ton of other people in history even some people right now"

so that excuses Israels' grab of land and indiscriminate violence against the landlords of Palestine?
§!
by Scottie
this is what I get when my comments are read by several people with different adgendas.

that particular argument doesnt have much to do with why someone has a right to make a.....

"grab of land and indiscriminate violence against the landlords of Palestine"

It seems to me the people you have an issue with in the above quote are Hamas.

if yo uare refering to israel you should calm down a little if they were doing that then the situation would be very different. do oyu really think the palistinians have the power to resist a land grab or indiscriminate by israel?

at the most it is a sort of a give away of land (they already have it so how can they grab it) discriminate violence against some people who happen to live in palestine.
§,
by qw
"grab of land and indiscriminate violence against the landlords of Palestine"

GRAB OF LAND- THE ILLEGAL SETTLEMENTS ARE "a grab of land", scottie!

You asked, & I quote:
>
do you really believe the Palestinians have the Power to resist a land grab from Israel and also the misuse of indiscriminate violence against them?
<

Answe-

NO, THEY DO NOT HAVE THE MILITARY MEANS TO RESIST YOUR BRUTAL OCCUPATION BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN THEY SHOULD CAPITULATE TO YOUR DEMANDS AND LEAVE THEIR ANCESTRAL HOMELAND OF THEIR FREE WILL.
IT IS SANITY TO DO SO.
PEOPLE SHOULD BE PROTECTED FROM VIOLENCE OF THE KIND ISRAEL INFLICTS ON ALL PALESTINIANS INDISCRIMINATELY.
IT IS TIME THEY "GET A TASTE OF THEIR OWN MEDICINE"

by Scottie
GRAB OF LAND- THE ILLEGAL SETTLEMENTS ARE "a grab of land", scottie!

- a pretty sad and pathetic one.
besides that its er migration. it only makes sense as a land grab if you are looking at it from a racist perspective I suppose you are one of those people who suggests all the black people should go back to africa and all the chineese should go back to china too?

IT IS TIME THEY "GET A TASTE OF THEIR OWN MEDICINE"

it aint going to happen..
and if you try you will just get yourself and your terrorist buddies killed. so i suggest for all of us that you dont even think about it.
by passerby
I was just wondering...I've read the above postings, and I've picked up that the pro-Israel arguments tend to justify the murders of innocent Palestinians (by the IDF) by referrencing the suicide bombers/terrorists, and that, basically, every Palestinian wants every Jew dead, so they had it coming. I'll leave this argument to Angie, anti-Zionist, etc., but I have one question. How can you possibly justify the IDF's murder of Rachel Corrie, and other ISM members attacked/killed, who clearly weren't suicide bombers or "Jew-hating" Palestinians?
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