We 537 Israeli Reservists REFUSE To Expel, Starve & Humiliate An Entire People

Is this the same proclamation that we heard about last year, or is this a recent one? I note it's dated 17 May 03.

Gwynne Dyer, brilliant Canadian writer, said in his award winning series, "War" -- "Soldiers don't start wars. Governments start wars and pay soldiers to do the dying for them".

Maybe it's time for armies everywhere to say like bloody hell. If you (Governments) want to terrorize, kill, etc., etc. for your own dispicable reasons, get out there and do it yourself.

It's encouraging, however, to know that not all soldiers in the Israeli army are eager to go into the Territories and murder at will. God bless you.

The Israeli General Strike is continuing, having started earlier in April and stopped briefly for the Israeli government's celebrations of stealing Palestinian land in 1948 by kicking 750,000 Palestinians off that land and murdering anyone who resisted.

It began on April 30, 2003 and lasted two days for the first round. See:

http://www.chicago.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=25561&group=webcast

which is repost from:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2987479.stm

The general strike includes the following closures:
Ben Gurion international airport
All ports and border crossings
Hospitals and emergency services working weekend shifts
Tel Aviv Stock Exchange
Banks, and ATMs will not be refilled
All government offices
No rubbish collections
No parking tickets to be issued
Radio Reshet Gimmel and IBA television off air
Telephone call centres closed

The World Socialist Website has been carrying the story.
(1) May 5, 2003: "Israel: Histadrut trade union halts general strike against austerity plan" at:
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/may2003/isra-m05.shtml
(2) May 16, 2003: On its resumption as of May 14, 2003: :Israel: Government threatens Histadrut as general strike continues" at
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/may2003/isra-m16.shtml

The labor strikes and the growing refusal to be the military cop of US oil imperialism in the Middle East are signs that the capitalist world cannot afford the puppet state of Israel anymore. With insufficient funds, the whole stinking, rotten mess finally breaks down. The only hope for peace is a socialist, secular Palestine, and only labor can guarantee such a peace.

You do not have to be anti Semitic to be against something that is wrong.
There are many good moral Jewish people who are against what Israel is doing; some of these Jews are in Israel.
The Question is what is the cause of the huge problem known as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? And what is the possible solution?
The era of colonization is dead!!! End the occupation and brutality occurring in the West Bank and Gaza.
Thank you to all the Jewish Men with consciences who refuse to commit the atrocities.
For a Possible Solution to this Horrific Problem:
CLICK HERE > http://nyc.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=56156&group=webcast

"Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has postponed a planned visit to the United States after a suicide bomb attack on a Jerusalem commuter bus killed at least seven people and wounded 19 others. The bombings were the latest in a string of violent incidents coming within hours of a meeting between Sharon and Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas in Jerusalem."

So tell me - why should Israel negotiate with folks who gleefully bomb commuter buses?

Roadmap to peace step 1: VIOLENCE STOPS ON BOTH SIDES if I recall right. Think the Palestinians WANT peace?

If they did - you wouldn't be seeing bombings.

There are extremists on both sides. Some people want peace, some people want to continue to fight for what they believe they must fight for. On both sides. Trying to put the blame on the Palestinians as an entire people only shows your ignorance.

Doesn't show MY ignorance - it shows I'm looking at WHO is doing the most killing in this mess.

Israelies knock down a building bombers lived in, bombers blow up 17 people - you see this as being morally equivalent?

If the Israelies are rapacious murdering bastards, they're doing a damn poor job of it to judge by the body count.

On the other hand, the Palestinians ARE rather efficient at mudering Israelies, judging by body count.

In the end - look who's doing the most killing. Look at the side that says they want peace. Look at who's offered the Palestinians a state in exchange for stopping their killing - and ask yourself why the Palestinians seem to react to peace overtures with bombings EVERY DAMN TIME!

But they have NO voice in their government, it would seem. They have no control over their extremists. I don't blame ALL Palestinians for the bombings - but I'm not going to ignore that Palestinians ARE setting off bombs and blowing themselves up, trying to kill as many Israelies as possible.

"But they have NO voice in their government, it would seem."
That sounds like me. I had no ability to stop Bush from going in to Iraq, despite everything I did. It was an illegal war, and yet, there was nothing I could do. Besides, wasn't the government compound in Palestine bulldozed? Imagine the state the US would be in if we had FIFTY PERCENT unemployment? If we were occupied by another country and had to wait at checkpoints where women and children are killed over and over to get across every town. And that's the case in Iraq, and what do we see there? Lot's of resistance, shootings, suicide bombings. We'd have bombs going off every two days in the US or any country under the conditions that Palestinians are forced to live under.

"They have no control over their extremists."
Let's see . . . nearly 3x the number of Israeli's killed have died now on the Palestinian side. Thing like the 95 year old grandmother trying to get away and getting shot directly by soldiers, in front of reporters, etc. Things like the toddlers and pregnant mothers who have been killed. Things like the UN workers, AP reporters, ISM activists, all being shot in full view of witnesses with no arms on themselves . . . Were these not murders by extremists? I consider those to be. They aren't accidents, so what are they? Any military committing so many accidents needs to be locked up. And yes, it's not much different that the US military in Iraq, killing entire families at checkpoints. I consider these situations to be lawless, illegal, and extremist. And I have no control over these as a citizen in the most powerful 'democracy' in the world.

"I don't blame ALL Palestinians for the bombings"
Then why say it is the "Palestinians' that need to stop the bombing?

" - but I'm not going to ignore that Palestinians ARE setting off bombs and blowing themselves up, trying to kill as many Israelies as possible."
Obviously. It's the Palestinians and not some other nation. But we all know that. What other nation has killed far more Palestinians than Israelis? Israel. There are killers on both sides. Any people being occupied and controlled by another nation resists. The settlements have grown continuously since they started. Why doesn't Israel try stopping that, and see what happens with the bombings? Because that isn't their agenda. They'll sacrifice as many Israelis as it takes to occupy more and more Palestinian territory.

Palestinians when they were shoved out of that country.

But hey, don't let me stop you. Keep blaming Israel.

"Keep blaming Israel."
For the murder of many unarmed civilians? Yes, I will. Lot's of other countries have done it also, and we could spend all day discussing them, the rest of our lives, in fact. But what we're talking about here is Israel and Palestine. Palestinian extremists kill with suicide bombs. Isreali soldiers kill with military weaponry. It's the same thing in the end, people who didn't hurt anyone else get killed. But in one case, US citizens are paying for the ammo and our police are going to Israel to be trained. Then we have Iraq. Then that spreads and 'normalizes' all over the world that it's okay to kill unarmed people using a military. It was okay for Israel, right? That made it old news when families were killed at checkpoints in Iraq - what's the big deal? It happens all the time. They should have listened.

This is what happens when you allow a military break international laws and call it normal and necessary - anarchy and lawlessness all over the world as people react to their own governments breaking all the laws. If a government and it's military are above the law, nothing is safe, no place is safe, and every country in the world has to maximize their military might.

It is difficult not to blame the IDF. Shooting children in the head (something new, is it???) certainly doesn't constitute an "accident" especially when it's happening almost daily. Not when you're talking about one of the most efficiently trained armies in the world.
Unless, of course, all of them have vision problems.

Again, if there were intrernational peace keepers stationed in this area, it might make a difference. Israel says an emphatic "no" to this suggestion. I think the UN should declare either your army gets out of these towns and villages or we'll go in.

If Israel has nothing to hide, it should welcome an international presence.

Always fun to hear from you. Your choice of words "dishonest", etc., is astonishing in its hypocrisy.

From everything I've heard on reliable news broadcasts (excluding mainstream US media), and from the pitiful stats coming out of this hell hole, the majority of the almost 3,000 Palestinians that have been slaughtered were unarmed civillians. Are you attempting to tell us that, perhaps, the children and women are "armed militants"?

It begs the question. What news are you watching, if any? What newspapers are you reading, if any? It also begs the question who is really being "dishonest" here?

Oh, and, yes. One more thing, Hi. Are you saying that just because only 1, 0, 3, 7 etc., Palestinians are killed daily that it is proof the Israeli army is great, good, etc., etc.? That as long as a minimal amount of human beings are killed it's okay?

Poor, poor you!

Since the intifada started till mid April 2003:
724 Israelis were killed (This includes innocent children).
2382 Palestinians were killed (This includes innocent children).
Who has KILLED THE MOST PEOPLE??
In the mid 1800s there were fewer than 6000 Jewish People living in the area now known as Israel, West Bank and Gaza, this was not an empty land but a land with hundreds of thousand Palestinians, both Christian and Muslim.
The reason there are refugees is because their land and homes that were in what now is Israel were confiscated and taken from them. The least that can be done is to help them settle into a Palestinian State.
Have you heard about the So called Road Map that is supposedly being worked on??
Both the U.S. and Great Britain have been tossing around the idea of a two-state solution….
For a possible solution where both sides win:
CLICK HERE > http://nyc.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=56156&group=webcast

Angel, I have read many times your solution to this ongoing horror, and I applaud your vision. It makes sense, and I congratulate you on your persistence in putting forth your views.

You and I both want the same thing - peace, but we don't want a peace wherein the Palestinian people are reduced to a serfdom. This is quite possibly what the so-called road map, if implemented, will turn out to be. That can't happen.

I want the Palestine peoples to have their own country, their own identity, their own Government with the powers of any other nation. I want them to have basic human rights, and most of all I want them to have the freedom to live their lives without the presence of a belligerent occupation army.

Sadly, I don't see that happening. Sharon and Bush will whittle away at the so-called road map until it no longer resembles anything we've been told to date, and what we will see is a so-called state as per Israel's wishes.

Please God I''m wrong.

So as we're all "idiots" let's hear from you. What is your vision of a solution to this issue?

Get away from the rhetoric, signifying nothing, and tell us, with your learned expertise on the subject, what YOU feel should happen here.

Don't you see, Palestine didn't start this war, Sharon started it. According to the Arab rules, when a Jew visits a holy site, it is considered an act of war.

The Arabs rioting and throwing stones and killing any passing Jew was merely coincidental.

"We Israeli Reservists REFUSE To Expel, Starve & Humiliate An Entire People"

Now, if only we could get Muslims to take a similar oath...
why won't they?

Because we're too busy killing them!

Even after being asked not to visit the Temple Mount (by Barak and others according to what Barak and "others" stated in a PBS documentary last year) in September of 2000, Sharon, the real butcher of the Middle East, escorted by his thugs, puffed his way there anyway.

He knew the Palestinian psyche better than anyone, and the Palestinians did just what he expected them to do.

For a month the youth were throwing stones at the Israeli army, and during that thirty day period not one israeli was killed; sadly, however, the Israeli army murdered 49 Palestinians, including nine protesters, whose deaths sparked the Intifadah.

It is just the way the twisted mind of this most evil person works. He got what he wanted - Barak out of office, and he, himself, elected Prime Minister, and we've seen what's happened since.

He used a wave of suicide bombings in the week following his election to launch a massive invasion of the Palestinian controlled West Bank, and has used the events of September 11th, 2001 in the US as an excuse to further slaughter so called "militants" without charges or trials.

Blessedly, as I've said so often before, there is a higher power.

Free Lebanon from Syrian Occupation!!!

http://www.freelebanon.org

If you saw the PBS documentary, you must have seen the speech he made when he visited. He said Israelis and Palestinians can live in peace.

For this, the Palestinian crowds threw stones.

I know it's hard to understand if you've never been in the situation, but when someone throws a stone at you, they are trying to kill you. Americans threw stones at each other during the civil war when they ran low on powder. When you say "merely throwing stones" you show a fundamental ignorance of violence, an innocence that disqualifies you from making judgements in this area.

And by "understanding the Palestinian psyche," you mean he knows they will throw stones at anyone they don't like? That is not a psyche that can be easily dealt with. It is a problem the Palestinians will have to deal with themselves sooner or later.

Hi, there!

Must admit your "author" name is rather catching.

But if you saw the news item showing Sharon at the Temple Mount you also saw a person(s) yelling in the background "kill the Arabs". That didn't make for a very peaceful touch now, did it?

This was a major news item on most newscasts (outside the US as I don't watch US news stations with the exception of PBS) and there was the PBS documentary as well.

So what are you saying, then? When soldiers fire at unarmed Palestinians, I suppose they are shooting to -- what? Scare them? Yes, and the sky is fallling.

With respect to Sharon's familiarity with the Palestinians, he should be. He's caused the deaths of enough of them starting back in 1954 (or that is when we are aware of).

The main point of confusion is this: A person throwing rocks is *not* unarmed. The Mitchell Report goes into great detail about these events. The fact that a large group of Palestinians charged the Israeli police, throwing rocks as they went. The fact that a lack of experienced Israeli officers led to dispraportionate force, with the fact that they were not prepared for a riot, no non-lethal weapons, etc.

You'll need to read the Mitchell Report from the U.S. State Dept. I read the same report on the PNA website, and all this was omitted, along with other parts (Palestinian police attacking Israeli civilians, etc). The version on pna.net was in fact heavily edited to fit their agenda. Maybe this changed with their new web site, I read it before the Ramallah incursions took down their old web site.

But the fundamental disagreement is whether a person throwing rocks is an *armed* person. If you've never been hit with a rock, you might say no. If you've lost an eye and half your jaw from a rock, you might say yes.

Was there one person yelling "Kill the Arabs?" I did not see that, only Sharon's speech, which was wildly misquoted in the Arab press. One person yelling kill the Arabs does not match a large crowd of Palestinians throwing rocks as they shout kill the Jews. I think it is ridiculous to suggest that a war was started when one person visited a holy site. Anyone who goes to war for that reason, cannot be dealt with diplomatically.

Nobody is saying that Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount was the ONLY reason for the intafadih.. It was a provocation that was uncalled for in the midst of what was happening at the time, and it was also a ruse by Sharon.to make Barak look bad to the Israeli voters.

In the beginning the Israeli army used rubber bullets, now it's live ammunition. I can't imagine Mitchell or anyone else stating that those who are killing Palestinian children are inexperienced, not when we're talking about the Israeli army.

In the meantime I shall check our library as opposed to the Internet and read Mitchell's report. I will let you know in a week or so what I make of it, if anything.

Compare for me then, the numbers of Israelis killed by rocks and stones, and the number of Palestinians killed by bullets and bombs.

Go ahead. Show me in numbers how really life threatening rocks are compared to bullets.

There are too many instances to count where IDF has killed civilians in response to events which killed no Israelis, such as the rockets being fired recently, or the checkpoints, or rocks being thrown, or a 95 year old grandmother trying to get away, or a deaf person sleeping in their house . . .

You've managed to justify that throwing rocks at people is perfectly acceptable. Good show. Now go put your philosophy into practice. I'm sure you can find plenty of other groups to throw rocks at, and justify it the same way.

In my country, when a kid throws rocks at cars on the freeway, we put that kid in jail. Palestinians make that kid a hero. But that's just a cultural difference, I guess.

Keep up the moral high ground!

Sorry you're so confused - do the rock throwers you know get shot in the head? Didn't think so. This is the difference between the IDF and some other militaries - killing people who throw rocks is not acceptable. Apparently for you, it is.

You've managed to justify that throwing rocks at people is perfectly acceptable.
what's next :
setting fires, is perfectly acceptable
stealing, is perfectly acceptable
vandalism, is perfectly acceptable
thank you for a look into the world of fred
"what a primitive place"

fred this is what passes critical thinking for liberals?

don't tell me let me guess "oakland resinent " right
the mentality fits...

Next thing you know these reprobates will be telling us it's OK to throw tea into the harbor and drive the money changers from the temple with a whip.

So what are you saying? That throwing stones is a crime, but killing people with live bullets isn't? When was the last person killed by a stone? Name him. Was it Goliath?

Shooting someone in self-defense is not a crime. Shooting at an enemy of war is not a crime. Having civilians in the cross-fire is not a crime (unless the civilians are intentionally used for shields). Throwing stones at someone because they prayed at a holy site is a crime. The courts will back me up on this one.

And if you think nobody has been killed/maimed/comatized by a stone since Goliath, it confirms my earlier assertion that nobody has ever thrown a stone at you. Consider yourself lucky that you have no empathy.

The answer to your question, which armies shoot people for throwing stones? The answer is, every army in the middle east. And quite a few outside. America and Europe are exceptions to this rule. The worst you're likely to get here is a wood pellet in your backside.

Except during the American civil war, when rock throwers were shot (rocks being a common weapon of war among primitive societies).

Now that we know the only criminals in this conflict are rock throwing Palestinians, perhaps we can go back to the beginning of this thread.

I asked the question if this was a new proclamation or the same one from last year. No one has responded.

It is interesting to note that the Supreme Court of Israel declared that recruits HAD to obey orders and go into the Territories.

It is also interesting to note that the nephew of Benjamin Netanyahu refused to do so, and has been imprisoned for his efforts. Does anyone know if he has been released? If he obeyed the "orders" of the Supreme Court?

hamas, what a loaded term.

Hamas is A socialist humaniterian party.

It is involved in after school care for infants and young students.

It has outreach programs for all of the oppressed civilised refugees.

It is a strong supporter of human rights for the palestinians, which is why israelis are so threatened by that prospect.

israelis prefer to deal with Arafat, a man who betrayed his people time and again, but he hasn't betrayed them enough which is why he has got to go.

Hamas is demanding for their people what israel demands for them...namely security and prosperity,

israel will not allow an independent party like hamas to the forfront because they cant be bought!

oh, what garbage.

Hamas isn't a "socialist" organization. It's a reactionary fundamentalist outfit that uses the suffering of the Palestineans to strengthen its position within and over Palestinean society. If it were to take power there's no reason to believe that it wouldn't impose a statist/capitalist regime similar to the one in Iran.

All ruling classes seek an opposition that's utterly reactionary (like Hamas) because such an opposition provides the perfect pretext for repression. This is certainly true of Israel. Indeed, Israel helped to set up Hamas. Read on.


Saturday, 24 February 2001 11:28 (ET) ISRAEL GAVE MAJOR AID TO HAMAS
By RICHARD SALE, Terrorism Correspondent
NEW YORK, Feb. 24 (UPI) --

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, speaking of the Islamic Resistance Movement Hamas recently described it as "the deadliest terrorist group that we have ever had to face." Active in Gaza and the West Bank Hamas wants to liberate all of Palestine and establish a radical Islamic state in place of Israel. It has gained notoriety with its assassinations, car bombs and other acts of terrorism.

But Sharon had left something out. Israel and Hamas may currently be locked in deadly combat, but, according to several current and former U.S. intelligence officials, beginning in the late 1970s, Tel Aviv gave direct and indirect financial aid to Hamas over a period of years.

Israel "aided Hamas directly -- the Israelis wanted to use it as a counterbalance to the PLO”, said Tony Cordesman, Middle East analyst for the Center for Strategic Studies. Israel's support for Hamas "was a direct attempt to divide and dilute support for a strong, secular PLO by using a competing religious alternative”, said a former senior CIA official.

According to documents obtained from the Israel-based Institute for Counter Terrorism (ICT) by UPI, Hamas evolved from cells of the Muslim Brotherhood, founded in Egypt in 1928. Islamic movements in Israel and Palestine were "weak and dormant" until after the 1967 Six Day War in which Israel scored a stunning victory over its Arab enemies.

After 1967, a great part of the success of the Hamas/Muslim Brotherhood was due to their activities among the refugees of the Gaza Strip. The cornerstone of the Islamic movements success was an impressive social, religious, educational and cultural infrastructure, called Da'wah, that worked to ease the hardship of large numbers of Palestinian refugees, confined to camps, and many of whom were living on the edge.

"Social influence grew into political influence," first in the Gaza Strip, then on the West Bank, said an administration official who spoke on condition of anonymity. According to ICT papers, Hamas was legally registered in Israel in 1978 by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, the movements spiritual leader, as an Islamic Association by the name Al-Mujamma Al Islami, which widened its base of supporters and sympathizers by religious propaganda and social work.

Funds for the movement came from the oil-producing states and directly and indirectly from Israel, according to U.S. intelligence officials. The PLO was secular and leftist and promoted Palestinian nationalism. Hamas wanted set up a transnational state under the rule of Islam, much like Khomeini's Iran. What took Israeli leaders by surprise was the way the Islamic movements began to surge after the Iranian revolution, after armed resistance to Israel sprang up in southern Lebanon organized by an Iran-backed movement called Hezbollah that bore similitaries to Hamas, these sources said.

"Nothing stirs up the energy for imitation as much as success," commented one administration expert. A further factor of Hamas' growth was the fact the PLO moved its base of operations to Beirut in the 1980s, leaving the Islamic movements to strengthen their influence in the Occupied Territories "as the court of last resort," he said. When the intifada began, the Israeli leadership was further surprised when Islamic groups began to surge in membership and strength. Hamas immediately grew in numbers and violence. The group had always embraced the doctrine of armed struggle, but the doctrine had not been practiced and Islamic groups had not been subjected to suppression the way groups like Fatah had been, according to U.S. government officials.

But with the triumph of the Khomeini revolution in Iran, with the birth of Iranian-backed Hezbollah terrorism in Lebanon, Hamas began to gain strength in Gaza and then in the West Bank, relying on terror to resist the Israeli occupation. Israel was certainly funding the group at that time. One US intelligence source who asked not to be named, said that not only was Hamas being funded as a "counterweight" to the PLO, Israeli aid had a more devious purpose: "to help identify and channel towards Israeli agents Hamas members who were dangerous terrorists."

In addition, by infiltrating Hamas, Israeli informers could listen to debates on policy and identify Hamas members who "were dangerous > hardliners," the official said. In the end, as Hamas set up a very comprehensive counterintelligence system, many collaborators with Israel were weeded out and shot. Violent acts of terrorism became the central tenet, and Hamas, unlike the PLO, was unwilling to compromise in any way with Israel, refusing to acknowledge its very existence.

Even then, some in Israel saw some benefits to be had in trying to continue to give Hamas support: "The thinking on the part of some of the right-wing Israeli establishment was that Hamas and the other groups, if they gained control, would refuse to have anything to do with the peace process and would torpedo any agreements put in place," said a U.S. government official.

"Israel would still be the only democracy in the region for the United States to deal with," he said. All of which is viewed with disapproval by some former U.S. intelligence officials. "The thing wrong with so many Israeli operations is that they try to be too sexy," said former CIA official Vincent Cannestraro. Former State Department counter-terrorism official Larry Johnson told UPI: "The Israelis are their own worst enemies when it comes to fighting terrorism. They are like a guy who sets fire to his hair and then tries to put it out by hitting it with a hammer. They do more to incite and sustain terrorism than curb it."

Aid to Hamas may have looked clever, "but it was hardly designed to help smooth the waters," he said. "It gives weight to President George W Bush's remark about there being a crisis in education." Cordesman said that a similar attempt by Egyptian intelligence to fund Egypt's fundamentalists had also come to grief because of over complication.
An Israeli Embassy defense official, asked if Israel had given aid to Hamas replied: "I am not able to answer that question. I was in Lebanon commanding a unit at the time, besides it is not my field of interest." Asked to confirm a report by U.S. officials that Brigadier General Yithaq Segev, the military governor of Gaza, had told U.S. officials that he had helped fund "Islamic movements as a counterweight to the PLO and communists," the Israeli official said he could confirm only that he believed that Segev had served back in 1986. The Israeli Embassy press office referred UPI to its Web site.

Copyright 2001 by United Press International. > All rights reserved.

You can obtain a lot more information about Hamas by reading "How Sharon and the Likud Party nutured the Rise of Hamas and benefit from its Terrorism. a very helpful article by Ray Hanania..

---------------
HENRY SIEGMAN, JEWISH HOLOCAUST SURVIVOR, a highly respected senior fellow at the (American) Council on Foreign Relations and former executive director of the American Jewish Congress:

(Do Web search on the name Henry Siegman for seemingly innumerable listings under his name! )

Siegman's remarks on the American PBS Charlie Rose Show [Rose is a patent Zionist] on the midnight broadcast (Aug 22/23, 2002; transcripts and videotape available)

SIEGMAN--*DEVASTATINGLY CRITICAL* OF THE SHARON GOVERNMENT --(THE LOGICAL OUTCOME OF ZIONISM)!:

Among other things, Siegman said:

- that the Sharon government was cynically and *PURPOSELY* **PROVOKING** "martyr/suicide bombers";

- that the Sharon military itself was targeting and attacking innocent civilians;

- that the Sharon government was issuing demands it *knew* no Palestinian leader could ever accept;

- and that the Sharon government was opposed to a Palestinian state *UNDER ANY CONDITIONS*.


Siegman said that the crisis (Israel's military invasion and campaigns) in Israel’s Occupied Territories (in cities or towns like Jenin, etc.):

- was NOT really Israel’s war against terrorism;
that it was Israel’s war to hang onto and annex the Occupied Territories;

- that it was Israel’s war to avoid dismantling the settlements;

- and a war to prevent *ANY* process towards PEACE !

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Excuse me for being blunt : Anyone who thinks that Sharon went up to the Temple Mount--with 1,000 soldiers in tow--to pray has his/her head up their ass! -- AND IS LIVING IN SOME *SERIOUS* DENIAL!!

Now, when someone representing the CFR says things like Siegman said--gee, it's (the CFR) not just in the establishment, it's (partially) in the elite!

The crack in the Zionist dam has been in the past two years slowly, steadily travelling, if not widening yet enough! And that's what Zionists/Israel are/is deathly afraid of!


Martin Luther King: "NO lie can live forever! ... Truth crushed to earth will rise once again!"
----------------

Do Web search on the name Henry Siegman for an embarrassment of riches listed under his name!


It's a good thing that Apartheid South Africa didn't have a rich and politically powerful U.S. lobby supporting it, with Afrikaner-Americans occupying every important office in the U.S. executive administration, or South African apartheid would still exist, anyone who opposed it would be called *anti-white*, and Mandela would still be in prison.

'Nuff said, you Zionists?

Now, let me 'drop some science', if I may. The Todd Gitlin's and the Michael Lerner's, and the rest of those 'liberal' or conservative Zionists grouse that Israel is being singled out. Well, their claim is false--and even silly--it's also diversion--for a number of reasons, but I will only mention two or three primary ones:


(1)

Israel gets more foreign aid FROM *OUR* COUNTRY than any other country in the WORLD!

4.5 million Israeli Jews get more money that 780 MILLION Africans!

U.S. aid to Israel represents the largest transfer of wealth from one country to another in ALL of world history.

Israel floats on a sea of U.S. money!

Our country's political, military, and financial support of Israel is INDESPENSABLE to Israel's existence.

So, this being done/possible in all our names, we Americans might feel a special obligation to not have our taxes and govt support Israel's oppression of an indigenous people who historically have done Jews no wrong.

(But, one does not have to be American to oppose such racism and oppression, just as one did not have to be of any particular country to oppose Nazism, or, later, to oppose South African Apartheid. As Gandhi said back in 1938, what is going on in Palestine, Zionism, is A CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY.)


(2)

Many progressives criticize the national ideology of Israel--Zionism--for the same reason they opposed the apartheid ideology of South Africa, because what is going on in Israel is also apartheid -- even though my Jewish South African friends tell me Israel is worse -- and a form of imperialist colonialism.

Israel is not merely a matter of one country, where there is one native ethnic/national group oppressing another, or of one country making an incursion into the territory of a neighbor; these things are, very unfortunately, somewhat ordinary, and also tragic.

The situation in Israel is EXTRAORDINARY because you had and have other people (especially Europeans) coming in mass from all sorts of countries and vast distances--and even other continents--going to a place (Palestine) to take it over and systematically dispossess and oppress the indigenous people -- all with the critical and indespensible help of our own country.

All three major factors that progressives are supposed to oppose meet: imperialism, colonialism, oppression -- and especially a certain level of genocide against an indigenous people.

Now that officially, politically (as yet opposed to economically), legally, South African apartheid has been abolished, ISRAEL IS, ESSENTIALLY, THE ONLY COUNTRY OF ITS KIND LEFT IN THE WORD!

That's why--besides critical U.S. support--Israel gets so much attention.


(3)

Additionally, progressives have opposed, especially, imperialist/colonialist oppression everywhere else in the world (in Vietnam, in Central America [remember CISPES?], in Indonesia, etc., as well as domestic oppression at home, say, during "Jim Crow" American apartheid)--and actually came to oppose, in any perceptible numbers, Zionist oppression in Israel rather late.

Finally, WHAT IS THE POINT of all this trying to pin someone down about whether stone throwing kids are armed!??? (The days when the Intifada, the first one, only consisted of kids/teenagers throwing stones look pretty nostalgic, by now, don't they?) If in any other *true* democracy, police and armored, bullet-proof vested, helmeted soldiers shot and killed stone throwing children (often after luring those kids out with catcalls), there would be a national outcry -- and a obvious sign that such a society, or its police/military, has decended into barbarism -- the logical outcome of Zionism against an indigenous people who will not (in turn) be exterminated.

I hope that all of this has been of some help.

"barbarism -- the logical outcome of Zionism against an indigenous people who will not (in turn) be exterminated."

Of course, I meant to say "(in turn, by Zionist Jews)".

JA
this is an attempt to minimize the conflict into something you can
defend, the Palestinian behavior has been the time tried bait and switch political ploy that has been seen in the middleast for decades, The implication that the PLO AND HAMAS is made up of children is totally ludicrous. do they use children as pawns to gain political advantage "YES"
do they use children as pawns to commit murder in Israel "YES"
do they try to encourage children's participation in the fighting to recruit new membership "YES" do they porously use children as pawns so that their deaths can manipulate the media "YES" have you been manipulated
"YES" Are YOU willing to support terrorist groups that send children strapped with explosives to their deaths "apparently"... "YES"
this has dimmed your credibility

JA is correct....
and we can not change the Past, so people with a conscience need to at least correct some of the atrocities:
There are some 5,000,000 Israelis and Millions of Palestinians.
Israel has to be recognized and allowed to have their state of Israel.
But if we want Peace the Palestinian People must be allowed to have their State.
The road map will not work because it does not start with reasonable Borders:
Set the Borders back to 1967…
The Settlements are now part of Palestine…
The Settlers who do not want to live in Palestine can move to Israel…
The many Palestinian who live in Israel and do not want to live in Israel can move to Palestine…
What will definitely not work is:
Israel: We have to confiscate Palestinian land and demolish Palestinian homes because there are suicide bombers???
Palestine: We have to defend ourselves because Israel is slowly confiscating all our land and demolishing our homes. We have no military to defend ourselves and our land. If we do nothing, we will soon have nothing at all???
For details on a Possible Solution:
CLICK HERE > http://dc.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=64554&group=webcast

TO BRAD ("when we practice to deceived", by BRAD IN SF, Friday May 23, 2003 at 12:40 AM):

Look, let's get one thing straight: you are a ZIONIST. You believe in a 'racial' ideology that says that Jews all over the world have an *INHERENT* and *SUPERIOR* right to most/all of the land in Palestine, over the indigenous people, and to *IMPOSE* a state that you Zionists specifically, legally and politically define as "a Jewish state": A JEWISH-SUPREMACIST, SEMI-THEOCRATIC STATE. I DO *NOT* BELIEVE IN THIS. I DO *NOT* BELIEVE IN EITHER RACIAL/ETHNIC-SUPREMACIST STATES OR IN THEOCRATIC STATES. I BELIEVE THAT POLITICAL ZIONISM IS--BY DEFINITION--*RACIST*.

Your ideological belief, as your premise, causes you to find all sorts of reasons, excuses--and obfuscations--to support it. I DO NOT SUPPORT YOUR IDEOLOGICAL PREMISE. AND I DO NOT ACCEPT THE ZIONIST PROPAGANDA OR JUSTIFICATIONS OR OBFUSCATIONS THAT YOU USE TO ATTEMPT TO SUPPORT YOUR IDEOLOGICAL PREMISE.

Now, speaking of credibility... I WAS TALKING ABOUT ISRAELI SOLDIERS SHOOTING AND KILLING (OFTEN AFTER LURING THEM OUT) *STONE-THROWING* CHILDREN! HAVE PALESTINIAN *CHILDREN* INFILTRATED INTO ISRAEL AND BLOWN UP ANYTHING OR "MURDER[ED]" ANYONE WITH STONES?

Now, speaking of deceiving..., THE HISTORY OF POLITICAL ZIONISM IN PALESTINE DID *NOT* START WITH STONE-THROWING CHILDREN *OR* SUICIDE BOMBERS. THE HISTORY OF PALESTINE STARTED WITH RIGHT-WING EUROPEAN ZIONISTS LEADERS -- WHO OFTEN THEN, AND LATER, MADE AVOWEDLY ANTI-ARAB RACIST STATEMENTS -- WHO INTENDED TO GO TAKE OVER PALESTINE WITH THE HELP OF IMPERIALIST EUROPEAN AND AMERICAN POWERS, INCLUDING GOVT OFFICIALS THAT WERE OFTEN ANTI-SEMITIC THEMSELVES IN THEIR UNDERLYING MOTIVES ('YEAH, LETS SEND ALL THOSE JEWS AWAY TO THE DESERT! GIVE 'EM SOMEPLACE ELSE TO GO! AND LET'S KEEP JEWISH REFUGEES FROM COMING/STAYING HERE!'). FROM NAZISM TO 'CHRISTIAN ZIONISM', ZIONIST LEADERS HAVE ALWAYS MADE ANTI-SEMITIC DEALS WITH ANTI-SEMITISM AND THEY, IN TURN, HAVE PERPETRATED THEIR OWN (ZIONIST) FORM OF RACISM.

GOT ANYTHING *ELSE* TO SAY, BRAD?

Way to go! Bravo!

JA, you get a large crowd together and throw rocks at any military/police force in the middle east and people in your crowd WILL be shot. This is an indisputable fact, evidenced time and again in every country in the region. So don't try and pretend this is something unique to Israel.

And to focus the discussion on stone-throwing children (an emotional lightning rod) while ignoring Palestinian snipers, gunmen, mortars, rockets, land mines, roadside bombs, and suicide bombers (five of which were their answer to Bush's road map this past week), is disingeneous, and downright ignorant.

bravo, indeed

I appreciate your agreeing with me, but I want to add a caveat to one statement of yours: "The Settlers who do not want to live in Palestine can move to Israel…
The many Palestinian who live in Israel and do not want to live in Israel can move to Palestine…"

While I would respect whatever the Palestinians would want in a just settlement, in a unified one-state or two-state solution, I myself am philosophically in favor of a unified one-state solution.

Like Gandhi, beforehand, in the case of India, I am not in favor of an India-Pakistan solution. Even if there is a two-state solution, *both states* should be secular democratic, multicultural states with equal rights for all people (as the PLO advocated for its own state, as undoubtedly there would be Muslims, Christians and Jews in such a state). For those Zionist Israeli Jews, or anyone else, who do not want to live in the kind of state enlightened people--and, especially, American Jews here--would demand, they can find someplace else to go.

Otherwise, if a Zionist, semi-theocratic, Jewish-supremacist state is retained in 78% of Palestine, easily dominating a politically, diplomatically, economically, geographically and militarily subordinate Palestinian state, and always meddling (as it would have been accustomed to) in its political affairs, that would be an ordained immoral fait accompli for political Zionism.

Why should the approxinately 1million Palestinians in Israel itself have to accept permanent 2nd-class political status -- or leave their homes where they have lived for generations--even centuries on the same property? The racist nature of political Zionism would have won!

South Africa didn't accept a two-state solution of one white-supremacist apartheid state (no doubt keeping the best cities, like Capetown, and land) and another easily-dominated Black state. The U.S. didn't--of course--accept a two-state solution of one much larger, officially segregated, white-supremacist nation and another, much smaller easily-dominated Black state. (Stipulating that all the millions of Blacks who lived all their lives and had homes/land in the larger, ordained, white supremacist nation, and didn't want to live under those permanent political conditions, could just give up their homes there, pack up their belongings and move to the smaller Black state.) The Allies wouldn't have accepted a Nazi state and a smaller Jewish state as a just settlement of WWII in Europe. (Although the Allies, of course, accepted a free state and a dictatorial state in divided Germany. Gee, that was 'fine'. But at least it wasn't permanent.)

Anyway, I don't believe in ethnic-supremacist and/or theocratic states of any kind. In an increasingly multicultural world (in Western countries and, especially, in the Middle East), I believe in multicultural states with equal rights for everyone.

We love you! Would you like an IDF rifle signed by Ariel Sharon?

No thanks, but perhaps the good folks and indymedia could get me a suicide belt autographed by Adam Shapiro.

How about some IDF-issue menstrual pads signed by Rupert Murdoch?

Fm okey dokey (Friday May 23, 2003 at 10:42 AM):

okey: " you get a large crowd together and throw rocks at any military/police force in the middle east and people in your crowd WILL be shot. This is an indisputable fact, evidenced time and again in every country in the region. So don't try and pretend this is something unique to Israel. "

JA Response:

Okay, this is yet another argument from "okey dokey" that is *NOT* really about rock-throwing *KIDS* -- IT'S ABOUT "OKEY DOKEY" SUPPORTING AND TRYING TO JUSTIFY A RACIST IDEOLOGY (and its attendant racial privileges)!: ZIONISM.

Why is it that every time anti-racists and human rights activists criticize Zionism and Israel, Zionists try to CHANGE THE SUBJECT!!? I've already explained why Israel is unique in the world (even Zionists *want* it to be unique) and why *Israel* is the current focus, especially for progressives who are Americans. Besides, "okey dokey", don't Zionists and Israel *CLAIM* to be *BETTER* than all those other Middle Eastern countries--or is your moral standard the likes of Saudi Arabia? Now, if Israel is just another morally corrupt (if more economically advanced) Middle East theocracy, no better than any other brutal theocracy, then just say so!


okey: " And to focus the discussion on stone-throwing children (an emotional lightning rod) while ignoring Palestinian snipers, gunmen, mortars, rockets, land mines, roadside bombs, and suicide bombers (five of which were their answer to Bush's road map this past week), is disingeneous, and downright ignorant. "

JA Response:

Well, even while I have the day off, I don't have infinite time: but, briefly tracing all the way back through this thread, unless I missed something, **YOU**, "okey", AND YOUR ZIONIST IDEOLOGUES SEEM TO HAVE FIRST BROUGHT UP THE FOCUS OF ROCK-THROWING KIDS IN PARTICULAR AND PALESTINIAN CHILDREN, IN GENERAL, HERE. I WAS MERELY *RESPONDING* TO THIS ZIONIST RUSE.

BUT, LET ME BE CLEARER: I *SUPPORT* PALESTINIAN KIDS/TEENAGERS, OR ANY OTHER PALESTINIAN WHO CARES TO, THROWING ROCKS AT THEIR OPPRESSORS--EVEN IF THAT'S ALL THOSE PALESTINIANS HAVE TO THROW. (I RECAL A BIBLICAL STORY ABOUT AN HEROIC JEWISH KID THROWING A STONE WITH A SLINGSHOT AT HIS OPPRESSOR AND DEFEATING HIM.) NONETHELESS, THROWING STONES AGAINST AN ADVANCED MILITARY MACHINE IS LARGELY A *SYMBOLIC* GESTURE OF DEFIANCE TO OPPRESSION--IT'S THOSE KIDS/TEENAGERS MINIMALIST WAY OF LETTING YOU KNOW THAT THEY *DON'T LIKE* YOU AS AN INVADING ZIONIST--UNLESS YOU ARE GOING TO PRESENT TO ME FIGURES OF THE SCORES OF ISRAELI JEWS KILLED BY PALESTINIAN STONES OR ANY ISRAELI ARMORED VEHICLES BLOWN UP BY STONES. (As I said before, *now* I bet Israeli Jews long for the days when Palestinians largely only threw stones. Have you actually *READ* my previous comments?)

LET ME BE CLEARER: *I SUPPORT* THE ARMED STRUGGLE OF THE OPPRESSED AGAINST THEIR OPPRESSORS, SHOULD THE OPPRESSED DECIDE TO DO SO. IN GENERAL, *I SUPPORT* THE PALESTINIAN ARMED STRUGGLE--AND I BELIEVE THAT, AS AN OPPRESSED PEOPLE, THEY HAVE A *RIGHT* TO AN ARMED STRUGGLE (ESPECIALLY TO DEFEND THEIR INDIGENOUS HOMES AND LAND), SHOULD THEY CHOOSE.

*I SUPPORTED* OPPRESSED SOUTH AFRICAN BLACKS UNDER APARTHEID THROWING STONES--AND *MORE*--AT THEIR OPPRESSORS.

I WOULD HAVE *SUPPORTED* OPPRESSED BLACK SLAVES' ARMED REVOLTS/INSURRECTIONS IN AMERICA. ("I have but one life. And if I must lose it violently, I plan to take some of my oppressors with me." -- Civil rights, anti-lynching activist and early 20th century African American feminist Ida B. Wells.)

I WOULD HAVE *SUPPORTED* OPPRESSED JEWS IN THE WARSAW GHETTO ARMED UPRISING.

I WOULD HAVE *SUPPORTED* THE VIETNAMESE IN THEIR ARMED STRUGGLE AGAINST THE IMPERIALIST U.S. MILITARY.

I THINK THAT PALESTINIANS *SHOULD* BLOW UP ISRAELI TANKS, SHOOT DOWN U.S.-SUPPLIED (RACISTLY-NAMED) "APACHE" (IRONICALLY *ANOTHER* PEOPLE THAT HAVE SUFFERED A GENOCIDE AT THE HANDS OF EUROPEANS) HELICOPTER GUNSHIPS, IF THEY COULD. I THINK THAT PALESTINIANS *SHOULD* USE "mortars, rockets, land mines, roadside bombs". I SUPPORT PALESTINIAN LIBERATION FROM OPPRESSION, FROM UNDER AN ENTIRE SOCIETY'S MILITARIST RACIST ZIONIST IDEOLOGY, *BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY*.

(Whether my Palestinian friends here in "the land of the free" can say whether they believe this or not, I'm using my legal advantage as an American citizen--who can't yet be summarily deported--to say this openly. More anti-racist, anti-oppression, Americans should say this. They certainly didn't pretend that they didn't support the ANC's armed struggle against South African apartheid. No one said that European Jews shouldn't have been in the anti-Nazi resistance.)

JUST AS I SUPPORTED THE FALL OF SOUTH AFRICAN APARTHEID, I SUPPORT THE FALL OF ISRAELI APARTHEID. (AND I KNOW MORAL, ANTI-RACIST, ANTI-ZIONIST JEWS WHO AT LEAST PRIVATELY/SILENTLY DO TOO. YOU SEE, THE THING ABOUT RACIST OPPRESSION IS THAT YOU CAN NEVER EVEN COUNT ON *ALL* OF YOUR *OWN* PEOPLE--EVEN DISGUSTED X-ISRAELIS--TO GO ALONG WITH IT, EITHER.)

LET'S SEE WHAT GANDHI HAD TO SAY: "What is going on in Palestine today [regarding the Jewish treatment of Palestinian Arabs] *CANNOT* be justified by *ANY* moral code of conduct." "[And while Gandhi always, of course, preferred nonviolence]...according to the accepted canons of right and wrong, **NOTHING** CAN BE SAID AGAINST THE [PALESTINIAN] ARAB RESISTANCE IN THE FACE OF OVERWHELMING ODDS[!!!]." (THE JEWS IN PALESTINE, 1938.)

(Even Gandhi said that non-violence would *NOT* have worked to change the Apartheid South African regime -- and indeed, non-violence was *tried* for a long time there first. But, Apartheid South Africa made *NO PRETENSE* to being a democratic country, for blacks, that believed in anything like equal rights.)

AND IF SOME ZIONIST BLEW UP OR BULLDOZED MY MAMA'S HOUSE, AND KILLED HER OR OTHER FAMILY MEMBERS IN THE PROCESS, I SHUDDER TO THINK WHAT I WOULD DO.

IN FACT, I HAVE A FERVENTLY ANTI-RACIST, ANTI-ZIONIST, PRO-PALESTINIAN HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST *JEWISH* FRIEND OF MINE WHO, WHEN I TRIED TO GET HIM TO TALK TO THIS ONE STUDENT ZIONIST, **RHETORICALLY** SAID (AND BEING MORALLY *DISGUSTED* WITH ISRAEL), "I DON'T TRY TO TALK TO ZIONISTS ANYMORE, I *SHOOT* 'EM!" (Point: My friend has never shot anyone is his life.)

Now, my having said that: IT IS NOT THE PROPORTIONAL RESPONSE OF ANY *CIVILIZED* COUNTRY--ONLY, INDEED, A BRUTAL OPPRESSOR--ESPECIALLY ONE WITH AN ADVANCED ARMORED (PERSONAL AND VEHICULAR) MILITARY--TO SHOOT KIDS THROWING STONES -- ESPECIALLY TO *LURE* THOSE KIDS OUT AND *KILL* OR PERMANENTLY *MAIM* THEM FROM DISTANCES THOSE KIDS' STONES CANNOT REACH OR DO ANY DAMAGE FROM.

If any of you, like "okey" and his Zionist friends here, missed it, please put "GOOD MORNING, MOSHE" into a Google search box.

(Btw, thanks, Angie, for the compliments. Right back at 'cha! You have more fortitude than I do. I try to do my little part, but I actually get pretty bored and irritated with these Zionists, even though I feel sad for the college student age and younger ones.)

-------------------------------
Additional clarification: When I said, in an above post, that, "Like Gandhi, beforehand, in the case of India, I am not in favor of an India-Pakistan solution." I, like Gandhi, especially meant being philosophically opposed to an 'India-Pakistan' 'solution' with the correlate attendant uprooted mass population transfer of the remaining approximately 1 million Palestinians uprooted out of Israel, or to live as a legally permanent 2nd-class, thus completing the Israeli ethnic cleansing that Zionists were really after in the first place. Especially those right-wing Zionists who exploited the Jewish Holocaust and its very tragic victims, and manipulated Jewish refugees (often coercing them to Palestine), just so those right-wing Zionist leaders, like manipulative political leaders exploiting race everywhere else, could gain power of their own. (And as we can see, Israel, it's ruling class, is as greedy, corrupt, exploitative, and scandal-ridden a capitalist country as the U.S. is.)

We have some extras. We found a heavily used one stuck to a bulldozer blade. The autograph reads, "To Rachel, good luck standing there, love Rupert."

The Arab world has offered to recognize the Israeli state yet Israel declines to recognize the Palestinian right to independence of statehood.

The Arab world has offered to recognize the Israeli state yet Israel declines to recognize the Palestinian right to independence of statehood.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

this is because Palestine has no legitimate claim to the land they occupy. as they claim statehood where none exists!

The Arab world has declined to recognize the Palestinian claim of statehood.for the last twenty years.

this point is the only thing that the Arab world and Israel agree on.

Which assertion? By whom? Be specific. Cite the URL.

I think the people of Lebanon have suffered more than enough already. Being invaded by Israel in '82 saw 17,000 of them slaughtered, mostly civilians. And this is only one instance.

Jews For A Free Palestine = FICTIONAL GROUP it does not exist. the pictures are staged.

Jewish Friends of Palestine
An Online Initiative of Jewish Activists for a Free Palestine
http://www.jewishfriendspalestine.org

For the listing of the many organizations that advocate a just and peaceful solution for Palestine see:
See:http://www.eccmei.net/~eccmei/j/orgs.html

Of course, falsification and deception are the stock in trade for the Zionist zealot. Some have practiced it so long, they don't recognize the truth if it stares them in the face.

as usual protesters are making up support as they go along.
there is nothing new in this, they just need some thing to get attention at the next protest, after that if and when their information is proven false...it does not matter, because it has already served their purpose..
(DECEPTIVE MARKETING) is the primary focus of the pro-palestine movement. the web sights are not proof of anything

The Refuseniks are great, but how come the rest of their Jewish brethren, for the most part, just don't get it??? How come so many Jewish people cling to the idea of a Jewish Supremacist state? think they are "Chosen"? think that their sufffering is more important that anyone else's suffering? think that equal rights is OK everywhere else except for Palestine-Israel? think that persecution of Jews is wrong but persecution of non-Jews, especially Muslims is OK? expect people to like them when they act so selfish and hypocritical????

"as usual protesters are making up support as they go along.
there is nothing new in this, they just need some thing to get attention at the next protest, after .....
(DECEPTIVE MARKETING) is the primary focus of the pro-palestine movement. the web sights are not proof of anything "

I did not post this.

R.

the age ranges of those killed in the intefada are available for you to look at. Therefore other peoples opinions and feelings on this issue are superceeded by that data. Look at them before you post rubbish.

Simply a bunch of Jew-haters.

" cowards
by THE REGULARS HERE ARE SIMPLY FUCKING RACISTS Sunday May 25, 2003 at 12:40 AM

Simply a bunch of Jew-haters. "


Response:

You *WISH* it were that easy for you.

(Have you ever thought of the *IRONY* of a *Zionist* calling someone else a *racist*??? It's like a pro-Apartheid Afrikaner having then called someone *else* a racist? --Or it's like their saying that if someone was anti-Apartheid, then they were an anti-white racist or a self-hating white.)

And the Jews who also oppose what's going on in Israel, whether they are Refusenik officers or Israeli dissidents (like Uri Avnery) or Israeli self-exiles or non-Zionist Jews or anti-Zionists Jews (like even some Holocaust survivors or Jeffrey Blankfort)? What are they?

Yo I-c-u!:

Who do you think that Zionist *Israel itself* teaches Palestinian kids to hate???

Who do *YOU* hate???

You Zionists are *BORRRING!* --Especiallly with your tedious propaganda.

In fact, if you Zionist didn't have a lobby that commits *POLITICAL TERRORISM*, *DEATH THREATS*, *MEDIA HARASSMENT*, AND *JOB HARASSMENT* right here in the U.S., EVEN AGAINST JEWS, there would be a *LOT* more people speaking out against you -- INCLUDING MORE JEWS!!!

(By the way, speaking of hatred, what is a "shikse"?)

The person who points the finger should look in the mirror first:

http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0999/9909019.html


Special Report

Israeli Textbooks and Children’s Literature Promote Racism and Hatred Toward Palestinians and Arabs

By Maureen Meehan

SEPTEMBER 1999, pages 19-20

Israeli school textbooks as well as children’s storybooks, according to recent academic studies and surveys, portray Palestinians and Arabs as “murderers,” “rioters,” “suspicious,” and generally backward and unproductive. Direct delegitimization and negative stereotyping of Palestinians and Arabs are the rule rather than the exception in Israeli schoolbooks.

Professor Daniel Bar-Tal of Tel Aviv University studied 124 elementary, middle- and high school textbooks on grammar and Hebrew literature, history, geography and citizenship. Bar-Tal concluded that Israeli textbooks present the view that Jews are involved in a justified, even humanitarian, war against an Arab enemy that refuses to accept and acknowledge the existence and rights of Jews in Israel.

“The early textbooks tended to describe acts of Arabs as hostile, deviant, cruel, immoral, unfair, with the intention to hurt Jews and to annihilate the State of Israel. Within this frame of reference, Arabs were delegitimized by the use of such labels as ‘robbers,’ ‘bloodthirsty,’ and ‘killers,’” said Professor Bar-Tal, adding that there has been little positive revision in the curriculum over the years.

Bar-Tal pointed out that Israeli textbooks continue to present Jews as industrious, brave and determined to cope with the difficulties of “improving the country in ways they believe the Arabs are incapable of.”

Hebrew-language geography books from the 1950s through 1970s focused on the glory of Israel’s ancient past and how the land was “neglected and destroyed” by the Arabs until the Jews returned from their forced exile and revived it “with the help of the Zionist movement.”

“This attitude served to justify the return of the Jews, implying that they care enough about the country to turn the swamps and deserts into blossoming farmland; this effectively delegitimizes the Arab claim to the same land,” Bar-Tal told the Washington Report. “The message was that the Palestinians were primitive and neglected the country and did not cultivate the land.”

This message, continued Bar-Tal, was further emphasized in textbooks by the use of blatant negative stereotyping which featured Arabs as: “unenlightened, inferior, fatalistic, unproductive and apathetic.” Further, according to the textbooks, the Arabs were “tribal, vengeful, exotic, poor, sick, dirty, noisy, colored” and “they burn, murder, destroy, and are easily inflamed.”

Textbooks currently being used in the Israeli school system, says Bar-Tal, contain less direct denigration of Arabs but continue to stereotype them negatively when referring to them. He pointed out that Hebrew- as well as Arabic-language textbooks used in elementary and junior high schools contain very few references either to Arabs or to Arab-Jewish relations. The coordinator of a Palestinian NGO in Israel said that major historical events hardly get a mention either.

“When I was in high school 12 years ago, the date ‘1948’ barely appeared in any textbooks except for a mention that there was a conflict, Palestinians refused to accept a U.N. solution and ran away instead,” said Jamal Atamneh, coordinator of the Arab Education Committee in Support of Local Councils, a Haifa-based NGO. “Today the idea communicated to schoolchildren is basically the same: there are winners and losers in every conflict. When they teach about ‘peace and co-existence,’ it is to teach us how to get along with Jews.”

Atamneh explained that textbooks used by the nearly one million Arab Israelis (one-fifth of Israel’s population) are in Arabic but are written by and issued from the Israeli Ministry of Education, where Palestinians have no influence or input.

“Fewer than 1 percent of the jobs in the Education Ministry, not counting teachers, are held by Palestinians,” Atamneh said. “For the past 15 years, not one new Palestinian academic has been placed in a high position in the ministry. There are no Palestinians involved in preparing the Arabic-language curriculum [and] obviously, there is no such thing as affirmative action in Israel.”

In addition, there are no Arabic-language universities in Israel. Haifa University, Atamneh points out, has had a steady 20 percent Arab student population for the past 20 years. “How can that figure have remained the same after all these years when the population in the north [of Israel] has grown to over 50 percent Arab?”

Answering his own question, Atamneh rattles off statistics that reflect excellent high school scores among Arab students which he contrasts to their subsequent lower-than-average performance in Hebrew-language college entrance exams given by the state.

“No major scholarships have ever been awarded to an Arab; there are no dorms for Arabs and no college-related jobs or financial aid programs. They justify this legal discrimination by the fact that we do not serve in the army. There are numerous blatant and official methods used to keep Palestinian Arabs out of the universities.”

Absence of Palestinian Identity in Schoolbooks

Dr. Eli Podeh, lecturer in the Department of Islamic Studies and Middle East History at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, says that while certain changes in Israeli textbooks are slowly being implemented, the discussion of Palestinian national and civil identity is never touched upon.

“Passages from ‘experts’ about the existence of a Palestinian identity were introduced, but in general it appeared that the textbook authors were not eager to adopt it,” said Dr. Podeh, adding that “the connection between Palestinians in Israel and Arabs in Arab countries is not discussed. Especially evident is the lack of a discussion on the orientation of Palestinians to the [occupied] territories.

“While new textbooks attempt to correct some of the earlier distortions, these books as well contain overt and covert fabrications,” said Dr. Podeh. “The establishment has preferred—or felt itself forced—to encourage the cover-up and condemn the perplexity.”

One Israeli public high school student told the Washington Report that the contents of the schoolbooks and the viewpoints expressed by some teachers indeed have a lasting negative effect on youngsters’ attitudes toward Palestinians.

“Our books basically tell us that everything the Jews do is fine and legitimate and Arabs are wrong and violent and are trying to exterminate us,” said Daniel Banvolegyi, a 17-year-old high school student in Jerusalem.

“We are accustomed to hearing the same thing, only one side of the story. They teach us that Israel became a state in 1948 and that the Arabs started a war. They don’t mention what happened to the Arabs—they never mention anything about refugees or Arabs having to leave their towns and homes,” said Banvolegyi.

Banvolegyi, who will be a high school senior this fall, and then will be drafted into the Israeli army next summer, said he argues with his friends about what he regards as racism in the textbooks and on the part of the teachers. He pointed out a worrisome example of how damaging the textbooks and prevailing attitudes can be.

“One kid told me he was angry because of something he read or discussed in school and that he felt like punching the first Arab he saw,” said Banvolegyi. “Instead of teaching tolerance and reconciliation, the books and some teachers’ attitudes are increasing hatred for Arabs.”

Banvolegyi spoke about his schoolmates who, he says, “are dying to go into combat and kill Arabs. I try to talk to them but they say I don’t care about this country. But I do care and that’s why I tell them peace and justice are the only ways to work things out.”

Racist Israeli Upbringing

Considering what the schools have to offer, both Banvolegyi and Atamneh agree that the oral tradition is one of the few ways to get the story straight.

“Unfortunately Israeli children’s books are not an option for promoting equality in this society,” said Atamneh, citing a book written by Israeli writer/researcher Adir Cohen called An Ugly Face in the Mirror.

Cohen’s book is a study of the nature of children’s upbringing in Israel, concentrating on how the historical establishment sees and portrays Arab Palestinians as well as how Jewish Israeli children perceive Palestinians. One section of the book was based on the results of a survey taken of a group of 4th to 6th grade Jewish students at a school in Haifa. The pupils were asked five questions about their attitude toward Arabs, how they recognize them and how they relate to them. The results were as shocking as they were disturbing:

Seventy five percent of the children described the “Arab” as a murderer, one who kidnaps children, a criminal and a terrorist. Eighty percent said they saw the Arab as someone dirty with a terrifying face. Ninety percent of the students stated they believe that Palestinians have no rights whatsoever to the land in Israel or Palestine

Cohen also researched 1,700 Israeli children’s books published after 1967. He found that 520 of the books contained humiliating, negative descriptions of Palestinians. He also took pains to break down the descriptions:

Sixty six percent of the 520 books refer to Arabs as violent; 52 percent as evil; 37 percent as liars; 31 percent as greedy; 28 percent as two-faced; 27 percent as traitors, etc.

Cohen points out that the authors of these children’s books effectively instill hatred toward Arabs by means of stripping them of their human nature and classifying them in another category. In a sampling of 86 books, Cohen counted the following descriptions used to dehumanize Arabs: Murderer was used 21 times; snake, 6 times; dirty, 9 times; vicious animal, 17 times; bloodthirsty, 21 times; warmonger, 17 times; killer, 13 times; believer in myths, 9 times; and a camel’s hump, 2 times.

Cohen’s study concludes that such descriptions of Arabs are part and parcel of convictions and a culture rampant in Hebrew literature and history books. He writes that Israeli authors and writers confess to deliberately portraying the Arab character in this way, particularly to their younger audience, in order to influence their outlook early on so as to prepare them to deal with Arabs.

“So you can see that if you grew up reading or studying from these books, you’d never know anything else,” said Atamneh.

“But in the case of Palestinians, we grow up 500 meters away from what used to be a town or village and is now a Jewish settlement. Our parents and grandparents tell us all about it; endlessly they talk about it. It’s the only way.”

Maureen Meehan is a free-lance journalist who covers the West Bank and Jerusalem.

It's astonishing the apparent glee some people display when they can find anything to discredit the Palestinian peoples. I note the spiel submitted by - gasp - "truth" has been submitted in several other threads as well under different "authors".

These allegations have been eagerly put forth on other occasions, in particular, by Itamar Marcus, a writer (?) with dubious credentials, and were proven incorrect by the likes of Susan Sontag, Ha'aretz, and others.

However, I guess the assumption was that iintelligent people like the ever diligent Riobard, for instance, would not have access to available documentation re Israel's teachings of hate. In fact, it's there for all to read if you had the desire to do so, which, obviously, you don't.

It's so much easier to make this a one-sided process, and the truth be damned!.

I wonder how many will read the article "Riobard" referred to? Why didn't "Truth" include this one as well?

I just remembered that at the beginning of this I asked if anyone knew whether or not this was a "new proclamation" re the reservists. I still haven't heard from any of you whether it is or not. There was one last year, and I'm just wondering because the Supreme Court of Israel refused their proposal. Come on, Scottie, Ender, someone. Help.

As human beings and as Jews, we must be attentive to their pain and suffering: Hundreds of thousands of men, women and children were uprooted from their homes - some fled, some were expelled.

Every year, Palestinians - including those who are Israeli citizens - mark May 15 as a day of national mourning, in remembrance of the disaster, which befell the Palestinian Arabs in the 1948 war. As human beings and as Jews, we must be attentive to their pain and suffering: Hundreds of thousands of men, women and children were uprooted from their homes - some fled, some were expelled.


This is a human tragedy beyond its national dimensions. Whoever hopes for peace and reconciliation between us and the Palestinians cannot be indifferent to their sorrow. However, whoever wishes to be attentive to the Palestinians’ pain must see things in their proper political and moral contexts.


It is no coincidence that the Palestinians chose the phrase naqba, meaning “disaster”. This is a neutral term, as if one were discussing a natural disaster. But what happened to the Palestinians in 1948 was the result of a political decision on their part, and political decisions have consequences.


We should say it openly and forthrightly: The Palestinians who mourn on May 15 do not believe that the decision to prevent the carrying out of the partition of the Palestine was either incorrect or immoral. What they regret is that they lost that war, not that they began it.


It is possible to understand the heart of the Palestinians in particular and that of the Arabs in general: from their point-of-view, the whole Zionist endeavor was an act of colonialism that came to rip away a section of the Arab homeland. Arab consciousness finds it hard to accept this fact and therefore, the Arab response to the Zionist attempt to gain a foothold in the land was, from the outset, a total war – in which the murder of civilians is considered a legitimate tool.


It was not following the occupation of 1967 that the Palestinians turned to terror, in the simplest sense of the word – intentionally attacking civilians. This was the Palestinians’ modus operandi in 1920, in 1929, and in 1936-9. When the Arabs of the Land of Israel – supported by the Arab countries – decided to prevent the establishment of a Jewish in 1948, they came out against not only the Zionist movement and the Jewish community in Palestine, but against international legitimacy as well.


It was the UN – the sole body that expressed, however imperfectly, international legitimacy – which determined that the Jews merited a state in part of their homeland. It was the UN that accepted the Zionist claim that this was a conflict between two national movements, and which therefore saw compromise, i.e. partition, as the only fair way out. The Zionist movement – not without some reservations – accepted the principle of partition. The Arabs of the Land of Israel and the Arab countries rejected it.


When four Arab states, who are members of the UN – Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq – were recruited to support the Israeli Arab armed struggle against the establishment of the Jewish state, they went to war not only against the Jewish community in the Palestine, but also against the UN decision. It is irrelevant that Israel has not always done what the UN expected of it; what is important is that on the central issue – the right of the Jewish people to have its own state in its own land – the UN accepted the Jewish claim and rejected the Arab claim. From the point of international legitimacy, the Arab war against Israel was born in sin.


The fact is that even today Palestinians refuse to accept that we are talking about rights against rights; from their point of view, in 1948, as today, we are talking about rights against injustice. This is the basis of the insistence on the right of return. The tragedy is that this viewpoint fundamentally prevents compromise.


The Palestinian attempt to compare the naqba to the Holocaust is bound in deep moral obtuseness: European Jews who were murdered by Nazis did not go to war against Germany. The Arabs of the Land of Israel went to war – and lost. That is an important difference.


However, there is an aspect of comparison with Germany that is politically and morally relevant: When Germany was defeated, in 1945, over 10 million Germans were deported – all of whom were civilians, woman and children, not only members of the Nazi party – from Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Yugoslavia. That is the terrible price that millions of innocent Germans paid for Nazi crimes. Nobody – not even Germany –petitions today for the right of return for these millions and their children, to the countries they were expelled from and where they and their ancestors had lived for hundreds of years.


A German government, that raises the issue of the right of return for these millions as a condition for peace with eastern European countries, will be perceived – justifiably – as neo-Nazi, and as trying to change the outcome of the Second World War. This is cruel and harsh – but the whole world, including the entire German political sphere, except for negligible margins, recognizes this.


Therefore, we listen attentively and with empathy to the sufferings of the Palestinians – as every person, including Jews, cannot be impervious to the sufferings of millions of Germans who were expelled from Eastern Europe. Gunter Grass’s last book, “Crabwalk”, is a noble expression of this pain, and is expressed specifically by someone to the left of the political spectrum.


However, with all the understanding for the suffering of fellow men, the truth must be told to our Palestinian neighbors: Just like Germany in 1939 went to war – and lost; just as in the German case, the fall was bound with much suffering; but just as Germany internalized the messages of the World War, in the same way – with all the pain and understanding – if the Palestinians want peace, they must take moral responsibility for the decisive outcome in 1948, to go to war, not just against Israel, but also against international legitimacy, which accepted the Jews’ right to sovereignty and a homeland in israel.

There is an excellent and informative article with respect to members of the Israeli army refusing to fight in the occupied territories.

Joanne Mariner, a human rights lawyer in New York, is the author of "Refusing to Fight in Israel", dated 26 December 2002.

I just remembered that at the beginning of this I asked if anyone knew whether or not this was a "new proclamation" re the reservists.

- I dont know I dont really care It is not very surprising that some people would refuse to fight. I expect I could find lots of people in the US or any other country who would refuse to fight like pacificsts in WWII for example.

As far as it reflects them expressing their own opinion It is nice to see that there ae diverse opinions amongst the israelis and that Israel is not a totalitarian state even if I think that they are wrong.

In the end pacificst end up weakening their own country (even if it is just by a small amount) and strengthening their countries enemies. do they really think the Hamas or PLO is better than Israel?
well i guess they are entitled to their opinion.