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An Argument for Secession
by Anonymous Californian
Sunday May 4th, 2003 8:56 AM
Is there a case for a secession movement in California?
I've been hearing on and off about a secession movement in California since the beginnings of the energy crisis. Remember, when the federal government couldn't help us out after we got cheated out of energy and had to institute rolling blackouts that might have been a disaster, but they could help flood victims in Texas? I've heard a few more rumors since Bush began talking about war in Iraq. Now Mr. Bush (I refuse to call him the President; I didn't vote for him and neither did California) is making eyes at Syria and Iran. Because of the war, he's been ignoring unemployment. Bills in Congress have and will overturn rights that Californians have decided on in the past, such as medicinal marijuana. Meanwhile, we're still getting bankrupted over the energy issue despite the fact that we have the largest population and the largest production in agriculture, entertainment, and technology in the United States. In fact, we've been dragged down; we were the fifth largest economy in the world until the energy crisis and Bush's economic crashes. We're still the seventh largest. And that's California, not the United States.

So why shouldn't we secede? Jefferson said, "When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the Political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the Earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature entitle them, a descent respect to the opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the Separation." Has secession become necessary? It has when Bush is attacking the things that many Californians stand for, such as the environment, clean energy, gun control. The list goes on. And what about this "endless war"? Where will Bush imagine weapons of mass destruction next? Do we, as citizens, really stand behind this war? I know we're doing things about it, both with peace marches and rallies, and by electing people who will work for peace or for rights of Californians. It doesn't seem effective, though, and we're still supporting Bush. Californians pay more to federal taxes than any other state. They pay more to federal taxes than to state taxes. In this case, even though we're trying to work against Bush's moves toward war and reduced civil liberties, we're still supporting him simply by being part of the Union.

It really saddens me to say this. I love the United States of America. I love what my country is supposed to stand for, and the ideals that were supposed to be reality here. But they aren't reality, and the U.S. is quickly beginning to stand for imperialism and "pre-emptive strikes" instead of freedom and opportunity, something that began when the United States moved inexorably toward the Pacific Ocean and became clear to us all with current actions. And Bush's weakening of the fabric of out country is clear; there are active secession movements in Hawaii, Alaska, Vermont, and even Bush's "home state" of Texas.

Can California secede? We can certainly afford to. We have the basis for an independent government. We won't even need to change our flag.

Comments  (Hide Comments)

by nuff said....
Sunday May 4th, 2003 5:29 PM
Didn't know that there was actually a movement going on, but seccession has been something I've thought about since the beginning of the energy crisis. It could not have been more obvious that Bush was 'getting back' at us for being a 'Gore' state. I have also felt the same way that we were getting dragged down. With California's economy being the 5th largest in the world ourselves, what does that mean? Does that mean that we are supporting 49 other parasitic states??? Maybe not all 49 parasitic states, but a significant number of them are. Since we pay some of the highest state income taxes and still have to foot the bill for the feds seccession isn't such a bad idea. Think about it.....if we double our state taxes, but no longer have to pay for federal taxes we all will still have more in our pockets, NET. Then, it might even attract more businesses to invest or move here. Better yet, maybe all of us West coast states that got shafted by Bush from the energy crisis can all secceed at once and form our own nation.

But on the flip side though, who's to say that if that were to happen, Bush isn't going to invade us like some imperialistic dictator.

Anyway.....let me know the URL if there is a website for the Secession of California Movement.....Thanks......
by cfp
Sunday May 4th, 2003 6:39 PM
I'm not sure where you are getting your info, but if there is a movement in TX to secede it must be a very small one.... .I live there.
Let me ask this .. back when there was that energy "crisis" in CA, and all the people there were screaming and hollering about the high price of getting it from TX, why was that? I mean you guys don't want oil drilled in your state -- you don't want the dirty pollution that you believe are caused by plants that produce energy --- but yet you cry because you have to pay higher prices for it from TX? In other words, you want the cheap price, but don't want to get your own hands dirty. Now really, is that fair?
I think California should secede if the rest of the US is not up to California's standards.
by global anarchist revolution
Monday May 5th, 2003 12:44 AM
we would just end up with president davis instead of govenor. or if SF went it alone we'd have king willie.

if the voters are gonna continue voting for scumbag assholes, it eont matter what country they're a part of.

(now if you insists on secession.. just make a law that NO members of ANY of the "loyalist" parties (repub, demo, green, libertarian, reform, peace and freedom, etc) would be eligible for public office - ever. now yer talkin!)
by Will Doherty
(wild [at] Tuesday May 6th, 2003 10:34 AM
It's not politically feasible to try to have the entire state secede due to large-scale political resistance in many conservative areas.

A more workable proposition is to start with smaller locales seceding, like the City and County of San Francisco. These smaller areas could federate as the secession movement spread in regions that are ripe for secession.

See info on the San Francisco secession movement at

Much help is needed to get a secession ballot proposition qualified for the November election.

For those in other areas, I'd be happy to help set up a similar website for free. Just email me at wild [at]

by cfp
Tuesday May 6th, 2003 12:56 PM
California cannot survive without the federal government............ that's why they won't do it. And besides, then what would San Francisco have to complain about if it did? Can you imagine if they had a gov't that did everything they wanted? --- just what would you guys do?
by Deborah Phelan
(deborahphelan [at] Wednesday May 7th, 2003 10:30 PM
The Colony of California ... lets bring this up with Oregon, Washington, Alaska, Baja .... maybe we can come up with an new 13 independent colonies and form another union.... reratify the wonderful Constitution, re-elect a president from our ranks .... someone without an MBA or an esquire after their name .... like an independent journalist, a photographer, an artist, an organic farmer. And who would his/her running mate be? I'd like somone young, someone who wasn't raised to be American Royalty, maybe someone who graduated from Berkeley High, UC Santa Cruz in the early 80s or UofOregon or Reed .... someone who speaks more than one language and is anti-imperialism.
Lets get serious on this.
by Jim Thomas
(jimthzz [at] Thursday May 8th, 2003 9:42 AM
First off, this ain't 1776. California's ability to secede from the Union was pretty much decided in the 1860s by this little thing we now call The Civil War!

Legalisms aside, the huge investment in infrastructure and federal ownership of lands in the state would have to be addressed. Do you think the rest of the current United States would NOT want to be reimbursed for those things?

Now as for politics. You must be presuming that the whole state's population shares your views, or at least would tolerate your views to the point of secession.

Are you out of your mind?

You may think you are oppressed and that the USA is oppressing the worldwide masses. And additionally, yo may even think that you merely breathing while within the borders of the country must somehow mean you contribute to that oppression.

Silly people.

We are living in the greatest country in the world in amazing times. California is a great place for sure, but without the rest of the country we would be a great place on the order of Belgium.


Long live the USA!
by Anonymous
Thursday May 8th, 2003 6:20 PM
This is way too funny - as a fellow Californian, I encourage you to read the humor of those who dare to agree and their views:
by mike
Thursday May 8th, 2003 6:57 PM
Not funny at all; a left-right alliance for seccesion could accomplish great things, even (or especially) if California remains part of the United States of Soviet America.

Consider Quebec. It's never seceeded and probably never will, but just by raising the threat has brought great benefits to itself (a more integrated economy, enhanced cultural identity, the hatred of U.S. Republicans, etc.)

California is so powerful--eighth largest economy in the world, if not bigger--that a credible movement to leave the USA could force the oligarchy to make substantial concessions to keep the state in the fold.

So I say long live the Republic of California, where lefties and righties can live in peace, without hating each other quite as much as they do now! (Ok, as a slogan, it needs a little work, but, hey, I just joined this movement five minutes ago.)
by leave no trace
Thursday May 8th, 2003 10:34 PM
We always hear about smaller government. Politicians say, "we want smaller government!" Meanwhile, looking at a map, I wonder, "smaller government? that's really going to happen soon!" Considering it takes the largest government in the world to hold together all this possesive land ownership. You think Togo has a larger government? And I'm not talking about any percentage ratio nonsense, strictly just a head count. Pound for pound, maybe china or russia can compare, notice, china is quasi communist and russia, well, communism failed, right? What does that make us? Look how russia divided up it's political land mass after the big break.

How do people live in a dreamworld where they think america shall live on, forever and ever, until the earth gets engulfed by the nuclear sun? It's absurd. Once, nobody lived here, then the native americans, who managed to survive the totalitarian civilized onslaught, only to be granted tiny reservations and casinos. Swell! What a bad deal. The hawaiians struggled to secede all throughout this nations history, most recently being shot down under the clinton administration. They would've never made it to the door under the bush or reagan company.
I say, let the chips fall where they may. If there is a final economic meltdown, you will certainly see land reorganization /seccessions. Those of you who bring up taxes have some of the most valid points, no taxation without representation.

More power to all the peoples and tribes willing to secede, where there's a will, there's a way.
by Una ni Riain
Friday May 9th, 2003 11:07 PM
perhaps we could be sister cities with amsterdam or a province of holland? two great places to seek political asylum....let's do this quickly, before i am imprisoned for YEARS for civil disobedience during this reign of the bush posse empire.
by who wants to know?
Sunday May 11th, 2003 11:42 PM
I figured I'd share some URLs with everyone that have helped me in understanding this whole business more so Ican then get more involved.
the last one is a bit more general but it still provides a lot o information...
by forestgal
Tuesday May 13th, 2003 7:48 PM
I've been wondering what we were getting out of this deal for years, glad others are of the same mindset. We are being totally taken advantage of by Washington, and we just accept it. I think we would be much better on our own. Is anyone up to organizing a website? Here are the t-shirts and bumperstickers....
by forestgal
Tuesday May 13th, 2003 7:54 PM
I've been thinking we should secede for years now, glad others are on the same page. Is anyone up to putting together a website? Got the t-shirts and bumperstickers here....
by your joking right
Friday May 16th, 2003 2:19 PM
good luck with your secession idiots. Are you that far removed from reality that this is actually a possibility in your deluded mind. Let me tell you that the odds of this happening are so close to zero that in fact i just rechecked they are zero. The only thing comparable would be to devote your life to the legalization of tomatoes. Your all arrogant fools. All those lovely companies and industries your so proud of would flee the state in a matter of seconds if the state seceded. I mean by the tone you sound as if california is naturally better than any other state in the union. The people smarter, the ideas better. You benefit from a wonderful climate is all . You truly are idiots.
by har har har
Friday May 16th, 2003 2:45 PM
In case you haven't noticed, yes they really are that far removed from reality.
by George W. Bush
Sunday May 18th, 2003 7:07 PM
California is the richest, most populous, and most powerful state in the union, and it didn't vote for me. I am angry. I am jealous of California's sunny beaches and famous landmarks. I decided to punish California by exploiting its energy crisis and defying its state laws.

By the way, California can't secede. The movement isn't popular enough. You see, I have brainwashed the nation with propaganda so that they would support ME. Too bad. California would've been much better off without me as president.
by okey dokey
Monday May 19th, 2003 1:03 PM
Let's replace all the federal money we get with higher taxes, plus the additional costs of fielding an army, embassadors, and all the other expenses that nations must pay. All we need to do is raise taxes. I have noticed that the residents of California are dangerously under-taxed.

Or we could sell weed. That would so rock!
by now you're talking
Monday May 19th, 2003 1:36 PM
We'd be rich as OPEC.
by weed-wacker
Monday May 19th, 2003 11:59 PM
"sell weed"
DUHhhhh....ya dude, just you and cheech maron...

"brain damage has already set in"

Some of the common side effects of marijuana are:Trouble remembering things,Sleepiness,Anxiety, Paranoia, Altered time perception, delusional ideations,Tremors,Nausea,Headache and sexual disfunction
by just wondering
Tuesday May 20th, 2003 12:31 AM
Do you know this from personal experience, or from hearsay?
by weed-wacker
Tuesday May 20th, 2003 7:56 AM
I know this because Fox News told me so.
by circus dog
Tuesday May 20th, 2003 2:04 PM
I have a much better idea. Let's just split California into two states, North and South Cal. It would be interesting to see the electoral college shake-up, with North County and Orange County cancelling out Marin County.
by BlackThorn
(ulric_bekker [at] Thursday May 22nd, 2003 8:13 PM
Right. I've read all the ideas on this board and while some of the secessionist ideas I've heard are flawed, for the most part they've been presented intelligently and with a level head. All this plan really needs is a little tweaking and it actually could be very feasible.

On the other hand, I see a bunch of right-wing morons spouting their fruitless insults and "yoo r rong!" thinking, making like they're psychic and 'predicting' that all of our great industries will pack up and move to other states (with a less educated work force, most likely, and a business environment not condusive to the kind of GROWTH and PROSPERITY that California has) once we seceeded, and hemmoraging the same kind of throwback conservative rhetoric that has given us Mr. Shrub in the office. I know that none of these punks will give a damn about what I think; but I'm disgusted by this nonsensical, yet predatory, series of attacks on California. Just because we think progressively. You republican shits can sit and stagnate in the country you've crafted for yourselves.

We'll take our huge state economy, the largest-of-any-state take on federal taxes we give to our non-supportive current government, our diverse ecosystem, and our PROGRESSIVE THINKING POPULACE and give the finger to Washington. Long live the Repiblic of California.
by madcynth
(madcynth [at] Friday May 23rd, 2003 9:31 PM
Though I don't know how complicated it would actually be to secede, the idea does appeal to me.

Does anyone have any idea how many in California are interested in secession and what their reasons are? I personally feel no close ties whatsoever to the administration now in Washington and do not think they represent me or the best interests of the country I live in. If the support for this administration is a strong as the media suggests, that would put me at odds with a majority of the population of the USA. I wonder how many others in California don't feel represented by the federal government.

While it seems likely, if this were successful, that some people and some businesses would want to leave, I expect there would also be people and businesses wanting to move here.

Some facts from 2002:

California's gross state product exceeds $1.3 trillion, making it one of the world's largest economies.

California accounts for 13 percent of the nation's output, and trails only Japan, Germany, and the United Kingdom.

Our nation's next largest state economy—New York—is about 60 percent the size of California's.

The largest industry is services, which accounts for nearly one-fourth of all output in the state. This industry includes such diverse sectors as computer and software design, motion picture production, engineering, legal, health care, child-care, and hotels.

The next largest industries—finance, trade, and manufacturing—encompass such elements as banking activities, retail stores, import-export activities, and the manufacturing and sale of high-tech goods.

Total receipts from farming in California were $27 billion in 2001. This amount represented about one-eighth of the national total, and was greater than Texas and Iowa (the next largest producers) combined.

Proposed capital outlay for California in 2003 is a total of 1,658.3 million dollars of which 4.9 will come from federal funds.

Anyway, I'm sure there would be alot of problems but it doesn't sound impossible. I would prefer the entire state secede rather than dividing it north and south or having individual counties leave.
by james
Saturday May 24th, 2003 1:38 AM
dividing it north and south would work very well, if we dont we would be plundered by so cal. they would drain every drop of water we have.

ps before this happens we get rid of davis "right??"
by madcynth
Wednesday Jun 4th, 2003 1:52 AM
Once upon a time in the kingdom of Heaven, God was missing for six days. Eventually, Michael the archangel found him, resting on the seventh day. He inquired of God. "Where have you been?"

God sighed a deep sigh of satisfaction and proudly pointed downwards through the clouds, "Look, Michael. Look what I've made."

Archangel Michael looked puzzled and said, "What is it?"

"It's a planet," replied God, "and I've put Life on it. I'm going to call it Earth and it's going to be a great place of balance."

"Balance?" Inquired Michael, still confused.

God explained, pointing to different parts of earth.

"For example, northern Europe will be a place of great opportunity and wealth while southern Europe is going to be poor. Over there I've placed a continent of white people and over there is a continent of black people," God continued pointing to different countries.

"This one will be extremely hot and while this one will be very cold and covered in ice."

The Archangel, impressed by God's work, then pointed to a land mass and said, "What's that one?"

"Ah," said God. "That's California the most glorious place on earth. There are beautiful beaches, deserts, streams, hills, and forests. The people from California are going to be handsome, modest, intelligent and humorous and they are going to be found traveling the world. They will be extremely sociable, hardworking and high achieving, and they will be known throughout the world as diplomats and carriers of peace."

Michael gasped in wonder and admiration but then proclaimed, "What about balance, God? You said there would be balance!!!"

God replied wisely, "Wait until you see the idiots I put in Washington DC!"

by the republic of northern cal.
Wednesday Jun 4th, 2003 2:27 AM
we would be plundered by so cal. they would drain every drop of water we have.

like they are not doing that NOW...
by madcynth
Wednesday Jun 4th, 2003 2:32 PM
Seeing as we are right on the coast, could desalination plants offer an alternative that would make enough water available for everyone?

In addition to looking at what southern California would take from the north, we would need to take into consideration what southern California adds. I haven't seen an economic breakdown but was under the impression the south adds a great deal of revenue to the state. What then would be done with the central valley? Would it be split in half or go with either the north or the south?

Borders always seem to be a source of dispute. Avoiding creating any new ones might be better and lead to less problems at the start.
by Brian
Wednesday Jun 4th, 2003 3:31 PM
It sure would be wonderful if the country was run by the words in the U.S. Constitution. Unfortunately, it is not. We have an unconstitutional income tax, an unconstitutional banking system that charges the Treasury interest on money it createes by moving decimal points electronically. We have gun laws that hinder the ownership of arms by law abiding citizens. We have property tax, you never own your own land allodially.
I could just see it, if part of California seceded, then Waco part II would happen. Bush would begin by saying that Saddam moved his weapons into California. He would have the sattelite photos to prove it. There would be evidence of mass child abuse by all involved,including the dead. Bush would hire a public relations firm to run a campaign like his daddy did for Kuwait.(babies disconnected from thier life support systems) Eventully Bush would get a role in 24.with Keifer Sutherland. In the end Boy George would quote Lincoln and then the Brits and the French and the Germans would invade California to put down this rebellion. In the mean time, Alan Greenspawn would have a separate interest rate for California to squeeze it economically. Even PAt Buchanan and Sammy Sosa would fight for boy Dubyah. And so the......................................... is ended.
by Nelson Johnson
(nelson [at] Friday Sep 19th, 2003 1:09 PM
OK, I'm finally becoming convinced that California would be better off seceding from the Union! Unfortunately my greatest fear is that we will end up with an East/West civil war if we ever get serious about secession. But maybe a civil war is necessary when regional differences are so great. If you look at a nighttime photo taken from a space satellite you will see the enormous gulf of blackness that separates the left coast from the right. We Californians do indeed live in a separate country already. Why not make it official?

I feel sure that Oregon, Washington, Idaho, Nevada, Arizona, Utah and New Mexico may join us. The Confederate States of the West.

It is truly a shame it has to be this way, but frankly our interests in California differ radically from those of the East and Midwest. We stand to be further abused by the rest of the U.S. if we continue to be part of the Union. We need to stop the drain the bloodsucking rest of the nation has placed on our resources. If they want it they'll have to buy it, and given the lack of resources outside California we will be able to charge a dear price.

So, I'm all for it. Let's secede now and get it over with. The Founding Fathers of the American Revolution would probably do exactly what they did if they were Californians.

Blessed be Californication!
by pazxu
(ourunion [at] Wednesday Dec 1st, 2004 12:00 AM
For any interested,

I sympathize with all those who want freedom for California. I am working on my own efforts to this effect, if anybody is possibly interested in helping this cause please contact me at the above address. I assure you that you will not be dissappointed.
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