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Pictures of massacre at Fallujah, Iraq
by pictures
Thursday May 1st, 2003 12:01 AM
These are from Yahoo, News photos.
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In these images from television, a bullet riddled car in a street in Fallujah, Iraq is seen Tuesday, April 29, 2003 , after a shooting incident Monday night in which U.S. soldiers opened fire on Iraqis at a demonstration after being shot at with automatic rifles by some in the crowd, Col. Arnold Bray of the 82nd Airborne Division said Tuesday. The director of the local hospital said 13 people were killed and 75 injured. The shooting took place about 10:30 p.m. Monday in the town of Fallujah, 30 miles west of Baghdad. (AP Photo/APTN)


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Comments  (Hide Comments)

by Antiwar
Thursday May 1st, 2003 2:46 PM
Fucking Disgusting...
by ME
Thursday May 1st, 2003 3:35 PM
THIS IS TERRORISM WITH BIG BUDGET AND NO BOUNDARIES!!!!
by ME
Thursday May 1st, 2003 3:36 PM
THIS IS TERRORISM WITH BIG BUDGET AND NO BOUNDARIES!!!!
by andy balla
(soma_time [at] yahoo.com) Thursday May 1st, 2003 3:50 PM
Look at what we stand for America! Is this the way you want the world to percieve us? Not me! I am a peacful man with an eleven year old child, and I would not want this hell to be visitied upon her, much less any child, or any HUMAN BEING for that matter! This is sick. The world will judge America as it judged the Germans for the Nazi horrors, unless we say ENOUGH!!!! Its long past time to stand up for HUMAN rights...ANDY
by waitingtobefreedtoo
Thursday May 1st, 2003 3:50 PM
Israeli inspired so that the Americans look a lot crueler than they are. how can this be tolerated? Nothing in the US media about this massacre.
by waitingtobefreedtoo
Thursday May 1st, 2003 3:51 PM
Israeli inspired so that the Americans look a lot crueler than they are. how can this be tolerated? Nothing in the US media about this massacre.
by the pissed off one
(Monstrausity [at] hotmail.com) Thursday May 1st, 2003 5:42 PM
So, now I fully understand why we are furiously hated around the world. I am ashamed to call myself an American. The incidents in Iraq will come to haunt us, sooner or later. This war is far from over.
by jon
Thursday May 1st, 2003 6:11 PM
but we call our occupation liberation, so its really a good thing.
by Canuck
Thursday May 1st, 2003 10:41 PM
The list is getting very long....how many war-crimes by the Bush Administration can Americans continue to swallow without vomiting? We should pity the soldiers involved too....Young, impressionable boys misled by a rogue Administration and a compliant media that now makes the murder of civilians a part of US military policy. After an illegal and immoral attack on them you would think that these people deserve something better than an Israeli-style occupation.................
by Ahmed Asgher
(aasgher [at] attglobal.net) Thursday May 1st, 2003 11:23 PM
It is good to see that some of you, Americans, do not approve what your government is doing in Iraq. being from the ME i have seen a lot of misery as a result of US foreign policy in that area over my life of 50+ years.

You all have responsibility to acquaint yourselves with your own history in the ME. It is high time you got acquainted with this subject and spoke from the position of knowedge. It is no good using inflated passion when dealing with such subjects.

Believe me most of us are just like you. We want a decent job, freedom, and to look after our families and live in peace.

If you sent your sceintists and business people to treat us as equals, you would truly be welcome, as we wish to learn from you. But sending us bombs whilst your armies stationed everywhere to protect the despots of your choice will not win you the hearts and minds. Not to mention your one-sided support for Israel despite its attrocities against defenseless people of Palestine.

So do not be surprised to reap tomatoes if you plant the seeds of tomatoes. God bless all of you and us. I hope and pray that we can live in peace and resepct for each other one day.
by Nevin
Friday May 2nd, 2003 12:11 AM
My heart aches at every news of civilian casualty in this war, as the Pope puts it, waged in disguise of God's name (Bush literally said that he was inspired by God to liberate Iraq) to humiliate the dignity of men. I am jsut an ordinary Asian with two kids and wonder how many ordinary Iraqis with their kids have to suffer more Bushist brutality before living ordinary lives like you and me. Shame on you, sick Bush! And shame on you, the sick mass media in America! What would it be if it were American demonstrators being shot dead, and Iraqi forces who had been shooting randomly at the crowd? This is homicide. And who give the American forces the right to petrol on the streets in Iraq and shoot as they see fit?
by Olav
Friday May 2nd, 2003 12:32 AM
Who would have thought that the United States that I and many others in the world have admired for most of our lives would turn into a power drunk banana republic. A stolen presidential election brought a mickey mouse brain to the White House, and he and his ilk have brainwashed the majority of a once great nation. Usama bin Laden seems to have won.
by JB France
Friday May 2nd, 2003 1:06 AM
America wake up before it's too late. Can't you see that your dear homeland is turned into a fascist state by a bunch of greedy people who don't care about anything but their personal profit ?
Can't you realize that soon it's going to be you against us( I mean the whole world ) if you don't kick that f******** administration out of the White House ?
Can't you see that we'll never unite in peace and understanding as long as you let a clique of facists stand between us
I pity those of you who truly cherish knowledge and freedom. I guess you feel very lonely in corporate Amerikkka.
Love
by Scottie
Friday May 2nd, 2003 1:38 AM
Ask yourself "If they find WMD" will you support them?
If they find WMD in MISSILES with US city names on them will you support them?
If you find skeletons of millions of dead people killed by sadam - will you support them?
I get the feelign that most of you will say no - never.
If that is the case then stop asking for us to find WMD - you dont care.. so stop pretending that you do.

Now THAT is closed minded

If you do care I hope you can promise to change your mind about the US if they find WMD.

Quite frankly most of the conservatives dont care about WMD either - they hated Sadam because he was a evil dictator who has used WMD before not because he may or may not have been in posession of them at this very moment.
by Scottie
Friday May 2nd, 2003 1:39 AM
Ask yourself "If they find WMD" will you support them?
If they find WMD in MISSILES with US city names on them will you support them?
If you find skeletons of millions of dead people killed by sadam - will you support them?
I get the feelign that most of you will say no - never.
If that is the case then stop asking for us to find WMD - you dont care.. so stop pretending that you do.

Now THAT is closed minded

If you do care I hope you can promise to change your mind about the US if they find WMD.

Quite frankly most of the conservatives dont care about WMD either - they hated Sadam because he was a evil dictator who has used WMD before not because he may or may not have been in posession of them at this very moment.
by Bill Y
(ganymeade [at] earthlink.net) Friday May 2nd, 2003 1:54 AM
I am increasingly afraid of the Bush cabal. I believe that they are capable of anything. The catastrophe in Iraq reminds me so much of the NAZI invasions. Horrendous civillian repression and murder. Stalin was an evil dictator too and no one thanks Hitler for trying to liberate them from him. America needs to wake up before we are all impoverished and destroyed by these fanatics that run the White House. These are not your grandfathers republicans. These are scary people. We are no where near a place of true freedom, justice and peace is this country -how could we bring to others?
by Ah Tong
Friday May 2nd, 2003 2:20 AM
If occupation is liberation,
then killing is party
and innocent civilians are your dishes.
by Ipso Facto
Friday May 2nd, 2003 4:52 AM
I'm not particularly bothered by any of it. When the ruck spill from the warren, full of agitation, fomented by lunatic clerics and their usual vindictive cant, to harangue stressed-out teenagers clutching massive firepower, well gee, I guess "shit happens." I'm forced to conclude the Iraqi people aren't a very bright crew. If it were I in charge, after the crowds had been dispersed, I would of rounded up every Imam, cleric or whatever they call themselves, and had them hung in the town square. The people of Fallujah need to cut out the religious nonsense masquerading as political concerns and get serious about joining the 21st century.
by Charlie
Friday May 2nd, 2003 6:18 AM
Ipso then you would be a war criminal. And as such would be tried in a international court for it. But there again the US hasnt signed up to it because it doesnt want its troops to be prosecuted.

Plus doing that would only inflame the situation and then every other cleric in the ME would be baying for US blood and a holy war would be started.

Its about time some people in the US started to learn restraint and proportional response. Also learning how to be part of a community not enforce your principles and ideas on it
by Robin
Friday May 2nd, 2003 7:13 AM
In our rush to war we totally neglected to train our soldiers in history or give them studies in civilizations. What we should never be forgiven for is our inexcusable arrogance in rejecting outright other ways of life. Hang the clerics? Translate that, America, into another country coming here and dragging all the priests and ministers out into the streets and hanging them. Or in our case, the CEO's of all the major corporations.

There's no way we will win here. We seem to be making enemies faster than we can kill them off now.
by sam
Friday May 2nd, 2003 7:31 AM
The United States is the only country to use real WMDs in aggression. The nomenclature of Weapon of Mass Destruction is not proper with chemical/biological weapons.
According to the reports and touting of Congress by this administration, the WMD scenarios was paramount and imminent. Particularly the nuclear 'threat'. This whole chrade is and has been based in unconstitutional precedence in the USA. Any action from that point onward is suspect of the gravest immoral and illegal intents.
'Scottie' still probably believes that the invasion of Iraq was a good thing and will benefit the people...someday...maybe.
It is 5:45 am and the coffee is made!
The well being of the people of Iraq is a grand charade of the most dispicable nature.
How much rebuilding does one believe will be accomplished in Iraq? Like Afghanistan? Korea?
Viet Nam?

Forced Democracy? The maelstrom of that concept is mind wavering.
by Ashamed to be an American
Friday May 2nd, 2003 8:23 AM
Ipso's empty rant is, unfortunately, intellectually representative of the moronic majority of Americans who approve of this ongoing slaughter. These are the hypocrites I see in on the road every day: selfish, self-absorbed, cell-phone wielding sow, wasting gas in their over-sized SUVs, with a giant flag pasted on the window and proudly displaying their "United We Stand" bumper sticker, while they flip off anybody who might be slowing them down. Oh sure, we're all "United"--as long as you don't get in their way. It's behavior that mirrors exactly the unelected fascist government they love so much.

One of the reasons these people love Bush so much is that he's "one of them": He "speaks" (if one can call it that) in superficial sound bites, just like his Goebbels-like FOX News spokespeople, and comes up with gems like "Saddam has 48 hours to leave Iraq"; oooh, the good-old boys and girls lap this stuff up! What a man! He engages in superficial stunts like yesterday's first-ever tailhook landing on the deck of a carrier (well, of COURSE he was piloting the plane! He's only dangerous when wielding pretzels or cluster bombs). But ask people like Ipso to find Iraq or Afghanistan on a map, or why the Shias are behaving as they are. Guaranteed, you'll be standing there all day. These xenophobic morons think that the USA is the cradle of civilization.

The people who support these fascists could give a rats ass (as Ipso so cogently demonstrates) who dies in any other country, because to people like this, the only blood that matters is American blood. They are clueless about the true motives behind any of this and gleefully send American kids off to waste their lives, and excitedly salute the bombers that rain death upon people who did nothing other than happen to be born in another country. But, as these brainwashed citizens know, being born anywhere besides the USA makes you a legitimate target these days.

Bush and his cabal constantly throw out their little sound bites about bringing freedom and democracy to Iraq. Obviously, given the recent shootings of unarmed demonstrators (including children) and the comments about Iran's influence on the Iraqi Shiites, Bushite freedom and democracy means doing as you are told. And, as people like Steve realize, the same thing is happening to our democracy here.

Nazi Germany did not become what it was overnight. The lucky ones got out early. And the Nazification of the US is also progressing gradually. All the while, Ipso and his ilk happily give up their freedoms because they know nothing about the details of things like the Patriot Act or the upcoming, even more amazing Patriot Act 2. They just buy into the macho posturing and superficial lies, because it makes them feel "tough", and that's just so important to an America that has become one giant sports team. "We're Number 1!", right Ipso?

Unlike Steve, I've given up. I want my children to be safe from fear (which, as you notice, Bush and Ashcroft ratchet up every time there is a lull; as long as the masses are afraid, they'll follow). I want them to be raised in country that doesn't glorify guns and violence, someplace where people think that perhaps "Girls Gone Wild" is a little less than art. I want them in a country whose population thinks critically, and gets more upset when their leaders lie about things like the reason for bombing other human beings than they do when their leader has sex (how many people like Ipso realize that the Bush Cabal has only granted THREE million dollars for the investigation of 9/11 and that the government spent FORTY-TWO million to try to impeach Clinton for getting fellatio?).

"Love it or leave it"? Thanks; I'll leave this country in the hands of all the racist lunatics that have taken over. This isn't America. It's Amerika. And for all the cheerleaders like Ipso, I've got news for you: Even you won't always be safe. Perhaps Patriot Act 3 will declare ignorance a crime.
by pedsed
Friday May 2nd, 2003 8:26 AM
This whole mess seems like a business deal gone bad, and the corporate president has sent in the compliance police to get our oil franchise back into specs. But if we insist on using liberation to justify the invasion, then we need to accept the notion that the rest of the world had the right to attack the U.S. for slavery. Where was Brittain when we needed them to liberate Afro-Americans from White slave owners? Some of the rationales that have been used to justify this invasion will prove to be quiet contradictory or false; but logic and honesty is not the strength of this administration. These pictures do, however, show the stength of the president. His strength is murder - American style. This is our new export and I am ashamed.
by Muslim
Friday May 2nd, 2003 9:16 AM
I am a muslim and to that to me is life and death. It is what makes me live, sleep, eat and "Alhamdulillah", meaning thanks God, I have a good career - a computer programmer. I am happy that I dont live in America and dont think will ever, even though I liked America for the past three quater of my life( last 24 years). I liked democracy for the whole of my life that I can remember. The ability to choose own leaders and determine the kind of governance. That is not more. At least in the western form of democracy. I found out that Islam, if truly followed gives one a better democracy. Man with lots of failures need a super natural(God) guide. Islam unlike other religions have set codes. It permits self defence and even then women, children, trees, old people are never to be touched leave alone been taken us prisoners of war. I hope what is happening today (the systematic targeting of poor muslims any where in the world with B52s and stealth fighters) should encourage American and Europeans to look at Islam and what it teaches. I pray to the almight Allah, to guide us (muslims) and to non-muslims to the way He (the amighty) prefers. May He make tolerance prevail over hatret.
by moving forward
Friday May 2nd, 2003 9:42 AM
So...now what...are we a chatroom or do we actually take steps? Read the UK guardian... read truthout... read antiwar.com... tell all of us where YOU read... find the stories and articles the show the truth (avoid the blatently liberal yap yap as we are sometimes inclined to do--- and look for the ones with true substance)... we have the INTERNET... subscribe your friends into these sites...(donate a few bucks if you see fit)... THESE ARE THE FREE PRESS OF THE 21st CENTURY... knowledge IS power... GO TO http://www.senate.gov and VOICE YOUR VOTE... we are losing it quickly BUT we are still a democracy... call for EXIT polls at the 2004 elections (conspiracy theory #1...they rigged the new machines)...
IF YOU ARE REALLY PISSED AT WHAT IS HAPPENING... take 30 minutes a day to change things... and try to get off of you ass and VOTE next time around %^)
by Mike
Friday May 2nd, 2003 9:43 AM
Yes, Saddam used chemical weapons on Iranians and Kurds. Do you know where he got these, and also the materials to make biological weapons? From the US and UK of course. Saddam has been on the payroll of the CIA since 1959. Donald Rumsfeld met with him in the 80's when the Reagan administration (most of whom are now in the Bush administration) was supporting Saddam against Iran. Also, the US supported the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden against the USSR in Afganistan. When the Soviets left Afganistan after destroying most of the country, the US also left. So, as anyone with any intelligence can see, the US brought 9/11 on itself, and not because it supports gay rights.
I am saddened, but not suprised that so many of my fellow Americans have swallowed the lies that the neocons are spouting. Go back to your Nintendo, sports and "reality TV" Scottie. The worst part is that the US will not be able to bully the whole world into submission. The invasion of Iraq was about as unbalanced as the Yankees playing a high school team, yet we hear all about the "brilliant" strategy that Rumsfeld thought up.
I sincerely appologize to all of the people in the Middle East and world, who have been killed, maimed and robbed by the actions of our government. It should be clear to any thinking person that when the government says "US interests", what they really mean is the interests of multinational corporations. It is sad the the US has the best government the money can, and has bought.
by Joe
Friday May 2nd, 2003 10:48 AM
As this has already been pointed out. Where are the WMD's? This question raises more fears in me than anything. Thus far very little has been found and the items that have been found were already noted in most cases by the UN weapons inspectors. Recall some of what has been said leading up the war. Below, I have placed just a few excerpts from the Powell speech to the UN on Feb. 5 for your reference regarding the WMD's in Iraq:

"Iraq declared 8,500 liters of anthrax, but UNSCOM estimates that Saddam Hussein could have produced 25,000 liters. If concentrated into this dry form, this amount would be enough to fill tens upon tens upon tens of thousands of teaspoons. And Saddam Hussein has not verifiably accounted for even one teaspoon-full of this deadly material. "

"Second, as with biological weapons, Saddam Hussein has never accounted for vast amounts of chemical weaponry: 550 artillery shells with mustard, 30,000 empty munitions and enough precursors to increase his stockpile to as much as 500 tons of chemical agents. If we consider just one category of missing weaponry -- 6,500 bombs from the Iran-Iraq war -- UNMOVIC says the amount of chemical agent in them would be in the order of 1,000 tons. These quantities of chemical weapons are now unaccounted for. "

Taking into account the amounts mentioned above and the fact that nothing thus far has been found or proven destroyed I am left with several questions.

1. Did the Bush Admistration lie to us from the beginning, the American people and the world regarding these weapons?

2. (most disturbing to me) Is our intelligence capabilities so faulty that we grossly over estimated these amounts and if so, where does that leave us as far as our national security overall? I mean, if our intelligence agencies over estimated this I'd hate to imagine what we might be missing!

3. If nothing is found or even proven destroyed where does this leave us as far as our credibility is concerned in the world and after all of this, if the Bush Administration uses this same rhetoric in another attack who will believe them?





by keeping track
Friday May 2nd, 2003 11:47 AM
There never was any nuke/chem/bio ("WMD") in Iraq, and everybody knew it, including Bush et al. In 1998 China, Russia and France voted to lift sanctions on Iraq because nobody could find any evidence of WMD. Twelve years of UNSCOM weapons inspections in Iraq never turned up any WMD. Iraq's top general -- the guy in charge of all the nuke/chem/bio weapons programs in the 1980s -- defected in 1997 and told all the governments that they destroyed all the WMD in 1991, as required by the UN resolution. Iraq was always in compliance with the UN resolution. But the UN couldn't lift the sanctions -- their part of the deal -- because they got vetoed by the U.S. Wonder why? You know why.

When you finally pull the wool off your eyes, it can be quite disorienting.

It's just a land grab.
by Greg
(Monstrausity [at] hotmail.com) Friday May 2nd, 2003 12:36 PM
I commend the authors that articulated the real truth, something the vast majority of the shit -for -brains Americans have not. In addition, I praise fellow realists like the author "Ashamed to be an American". It makes me feel good that I am not alone. Finally, to all those individuals out there that support the assholes of the Bush cabal, I feel sorry for you. You are to God dam stupid to know what sensless rheteric you support and believe in. Unfortunately , all Americans will have to perhaps pay the price for the rampant "false patriotic bullshit" most of you support. Go ahead and drive around your fat obese asses in your behemoth SUV and wave your cheap flags.
by Ken Gillespie
Friday May 2nd, 2003 12:42 PM
We have no right under the U.S. Constitution to even be in Iraq. (period).
by Balfre
Friday May 2nd, 2003 12:52 PM
So this is liberation and democracy for the people of Iraq. The Bush Regime is worse than Saddam's. The people of the world have to stop him before he destroys the rest of us.
by NOW you worry
Friday May 2nd, 2003 1:36 PM
Bush worse than Saddam?

When he's killed 100,000 people a year for 30 years, he STILL won't be close.

But hey, it's a good sound bite, right?
by sam
Friday May 2nd, 2003 2:21 PM
Whiners?
Always from you detached 'patriots' is the name calling to prempt your inablities.

The Truth? Anyone who supports actions taken by our (my) employees of the governmental process which is against the Constitution which they took an oath to uphold, is working either negligently or intentionally to undermine the very foundation of the United States of America.

Believing the Saddam Hussein is solely responsible for killing "100,000" a year shows a lack of knowledge which should not be publicized.
by Mad Viking
Friday May 2nd, 2003 4:26 PM
Kill 100,000 a year to be worse than Saddam? *sigh* There are none so blind as those who will not see.

Since the U.S. government has been deposing democratically elected governments and replacing them with brutal dictators like Saddam, the Shah, Pinochet, Marcos, etc. etc. ad nauseum, then I guess Washington is far wose than any one of these tinpot dictators. After all, they were created monsters, created by the government of the United States.

The blood may not stain Dubya's hands directly, but he sure seems to be the most enthusiastic heir of this bloody legacy since Nixon. He's actually worse because of his desecration of the constitution at home.

Open your eyes, stop spouting their lies.

MV
by Joan
Friday May 2nd, 2003 4:30 PM
For 70 years I was proud to be an American. In my 74th year I'm ashamed for my country and what the Bush adminstration has done to us. My observations show that we turned cities to rubble, killed innocent cilvilians, and allowed ancient history to be looted. Shame on America!





by impeach
(impeachbush [at] mr.net) Friday May 2nd, 2003 4:46 PM
IMPEACH

say it again

IMPEACH

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com

IMPEACH

say it again...
by Kim Bax
Friday May 2nd, 2003 5:24 PM
It is grossly dishonest for George Bush and the cabal around him to wrap themselves in the American flag. They should be clothing themselves in brown shirts.
by Aussie
Friday May 2nd, 2003 6:45 PM
Where do you get your figures?
The US killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis since 1991through bombing, toxic effects of bombing and sanctions.
Saddam killed hundreds each year, not hundreds of thousands you silly twit.
by ferdinand marcos
Friday May 2nd, 2003 6:47 PM
Yes, Bush does not come close. So did Reagan. So did other US presidents. Because, when atrocities happened in the land of US-backed dictators, and hundreds of thousands of people disappeared forever, the American system of presidential pardon would give ex-presidents and their men a lying excuse. Don't you find it amusing (or as we Asians call it: karmic) that a certain president's memory lapse could be a result of a "plausible deniability" that had gone bad and way too long.

by Yo Yo Mo
(kuklos [at] juno.net) Friday May 2nd, 2003 7:31 PM
On many of the above threads I keep seeing the nazification of America, or it's becoming a facist state. What gives? Let us not forget fascism came after communism/socialism; in effort to rupulse the death and decay that became Russia. It should be of interest to all thinking people that the same instigators rallying for war at the beginning of the 20thcentury are the same today.
by Hinduextremist
Friday May 2nd, 2003 8:19 PM
Heil Hitler............

Hitler, Mengle, et al would be so proud of US of A. The real Nazis are the AMericans and their co-horts namely Israel. What a sham acting all the Jewish and US activists around the world do in name of human rights? Human rights is only an issue when it concerns US and Israel interests.

Hypocrates............your time is coming soon. Many nations have nukes and some of them have ICBM launch capabilities. Just wait and watch the fun you stupid American/Heb idiots.
by Noah Dean
(noahdean786 [at] yahoo.com.au) Friday May 2nd, 2003 8:29 PM
Bush, Blair and Howard are murderers. They took licence under the guise of WMD's and Regime Change to unlawfull invade a sovereign nation.

Since it is now common Warfare tactic to use MOAB'S, CLUSTER BOMBS AND MINI NUKES to murder foreign Government's Leaders and President's and laud about it, will it affect US/UK/Australia if this happened in their own country and the tables were turned on them- the THREE VILLAINS of this Century?

Serious stuff when its your own blood that flows on the scene of devastations; but nothing of any real consequences if it is foreign blood eg: the Blue-blooded Israeli's/Palestinians; the September 11 (self-invoked Terrorist attacks by the Bush Cabal and the atrocities unloaded in its name on Afghanistan,Iraq and where else. All the while the BUSH CABAL, the real terrorists are gloating about getting even with Terrorists when they themselves are the Terrorists and today's MAFIA controlling the Media, the masses and the ignorant rich Corporations in whose name the Wars are being conducded

This regime in Washigton led by the proverbial "Boy Prince" who knows very little about average men and how people live; must be eliminated and thrown out of office come 2004 elections and the entire MOB be placed under arrest and dealt with by a properly constituted International Court with teeth for War Crimes and Crimes against humanity.

They must pay dearly for their "Cowboy adventures" in Iraq and Afghanistan and must be made to rot in gaol.

Noah
by John C. Moran
(moran [at] psinet.hn) Friday May 2nd, 2003 8:45 PM
Mr. "Ipso Facto" (a banal & unoriginal pseudonym) reflects the prevalent nuhilism that has creeped up into American society like a cancer, and expressing itself politically via the Bush Mafia. Americans are living in its own Matrix created by the Cabal itself. Ipso facto is a sad casualty and to be pitied upon, fellow Americans and world sympathizers. May he be cured of his crass nihlistic cancer (unless another nihilist puts a bullet through his head in the name of "Patriotism" as his cure).
by J maxine
(jburdett [at] sbcglobal.net) Friday May 2nd, 2003 8:56 PM
i new this would happen when bush went to war.he was not looking for but one thing iraq OIL i know that so do many americans why do you thank americans was agnist this war.bush and his cronnies are the killers.they hate the people of iraq.anyone that do not go alone with the USA they are killed like the iraq"er people. iam praying for the iraq people.do you think bush and his troops care that they are killing women and children you better think again they do not care.they have been killers all of thair life.
by Also ashamed to be an American
Friday May 2nd, 2003 9:17 PM
Ashamed to be an American--Great stuff! I share your sentiments 100%. I wish there were more people like you and most of the other respondents to this site in this country. Maybe then we'd have a democratically elected president instead of a moron who can't read or write. However, the real danger lies not in Bush himself but in the powers behind him, like the members of the Project for a New American Century and the heads of the multinational corporations. Bush is merely their puppet.

Good point about the difference in expenditures on the investigation of 9/11 and the Clinton-Lewinsky scandal. The fact that they didn't bother to investigate 9/11 very thouroughly, kind of makes me wonder, seeing as they use it to incite fear in the American public just about any time they feel like making any sort of policy decision that a thinking person might be able to dissuade the people who aren't thinking critically from supporting or when taking away our constitutionally-guaranteed civil liberites (i.e. the Patriot Act). Could it be that they won't investigate 9/11 thoroughly because they're hiding something?

Likewise, I've given up hope of this country ever becoming a beacon of freedom, justice, or compassion. Since you might already have started researching emigration possiblities, could you let me know what nations seem to a last retain a sliver of democracy? I'd greatly appreciate it. By the way, I loved the fat soccer moms in the SUV comment. Great social commentary--too bad we'd get called traitors for saying it in any mainstream media source. It's good to know that there are still some sane people in this country. (Ipso Idiot and Scottie are NOT included in this group.) I also hope more people around the world read our commentaries so that no one thinks we are all a bunch of flag-waving idiots screaming "USA, USA, USA!!!!!" every time an innocent Iraqi is killed. There is nothing wrong with patriotism, but the ignorance behind some people's patriotism is truly despicable.
by Simon
(pandaemoniumpolitics [at] yahoo.co.uk) Friday May 2nd, 2003 9:31 PM
Don't be ashamed to be American, just make sure that we are not reliving the 1930's all over again. Watching the rise of a Fascist Regime by not being afraid to speak your mind, OK so you might be called unpatriotic, but we know that this is just their way of beating good people down.

"Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracyy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voive or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy, All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same for any country."

Hermann Goering President of the Nazi Party (Gilbert, G.M. (1947) Nuremberg Diary, New York: Signet)

From my position as a European it does feel like a new form of Fascism is evolving , with its roots in the U.S. I mean when did the U.S.A. suddenly become the "Homeland" and what is the "Patriot" Act all about. If Martin Luther King had been around now he would have been locked up under these laws (I know you good 'ol boys probably think that would be a good thing) but those of us who don't want marry our cousins (or horses) disagree.
You need to wake up America.
Your "Elected" Leaders are leading you down the most dangerous path you've ever been down. You can't bomb everyone into submission.
People in Europe who were a bit annoyed about seeing MacDonalds everywhere but generally didn't mind too much about the U.S. now have a real problem with your government and its moronic supporters. You are a relatively new Nation, and all your attempts at Empire have so far been failures, a lot of us "Old Europeans" know the pitfalls, been there done that, so be warned. Don't try to rule the world because it will turn round and bite your ass.
The Atlantic and Pacific Oceans are no defence, especially if your most dangerous enemies are running your country and don't really care if a few thousand of you are killed here or there to further their political aims.
We know your'e not all bad, its just that the morons have stolen all the megaphones.

Peace.


by brian
Friday May 2nd, 2003 10:07 PM
if events in iraq bear a curious resemblance to events in palestine, maybe there is a connection!

In a lengthy article in The American Conservative criticizing the rationale for the projected U.S. attack on Iraq, the veteran diplomatic historian Paul W. Schroeder noted (only in passing) "what is possibly the unacknowledged real reason and motive behind the policy — security for Israel." If Israel's security were indeed the real American motive for war, Schroeder wrote,


It would represent something to my knowledge unique in history. It is common for great powers to try to fight wars by proxy, getting smaller powers to fight for their interests. This would be the first instance I know where a great power (in fact, a superpower) would do the fighting as the proxy of a small client state. [1]
Is there any evidence that Israel and her supporters have managed to get the United States to fight for their interests?

To unearth the real motives for the projected war on Iraq, one must ask the critical question: How did the 9/11 terrorist attack lead to the planned war on Iraq, even though there is no real evidence that Iraq was involved in 9/11? From the time of the 9/11 attack, neoconservatives, of primarily (though not exclusively) Jewish ethnicity and right-wing Zionist persuasion, have tried to make use of 9/11 to foment a broad war against Islamic terrorism, the targets of which would coincide with the enemies of Israel.

Although the term neoconservative is in common usage, a brief description of the group might be helpful. Many of the first-generation neocons originally were liberal Democrats, or even socialists and Marxists, often Trotskyites. They drifted to the right in the 1960s and 1970s as the Democratic Party moved to the antiwar McGovernite left. And concern for Israel loomed large in that rightward drift. As political scientist Benjamin Ginsberg puts it:


One major factor that drew them inexorably to the right was their attachment to Israel and their growing frustration during the 1960s with a Democratic party that was becoming increasingly opposed to American military preparedness and increasingly enamored of Third World causes [e.g., Palestinian rights]. In the Reaganite right's hard-line anti-communism, commitment to American military strength, and willingness to intervene politically and militarily in the affairs of other nations to promote democratic values (and American interests), neocons found a political movement that would guarantee Israel's security. [2]
For some time prior to September 11, 2001, neoconservatives had publicly advocated an American war on Iraq. The 9/11 atrocities provided the pretext. The idea that neocons are the motivating force behind the U.S. movement for war has been broached by a number of commentators. For instance, Joshua Micah Marshall authored an article in The Washington Monthly titled: "Bomb Saddam?: How the obsession of a few neocon hawks became the central goal of U.S. foreign policy." And in the leftist e-journal CounterPunch, Kathleen and Bill Christison wrote:


The suggestion that the war with Iraq is being planned at Israel's behest, or at the instigation of policymakers whose main motivation is trying to create a secure environment for Israel, is strong. Many Israeli analysts believe this. The Israeli commentator Akiva Eldar recently observed frankly in a Ha'aretz column that [Richard] Perle, [Douglas] Feith, and their fellow strategists "are walking a fine line between their loyalty to American governments and Israeli interests." The suggestion of dual loyalties is not a verboten subject in the Israeli press, as it is in the United States. Peace activist Uri Avnery, who knows Israeli Prime Minister Sharon well, has written that Sharon has long planned grandiose schemes for restructuring the Middle East and that "the winds blowing now in Washington remind me of Sharon. I have absolutely no proof that the Bushies got their ideas from him. But the style is the same." [3]
In the following essay I attempt to flesh out that thesis and show the link between the war position of the neoconservatives and the long-time strategy of the Israeli Right, if not of the Israeli mainstream itself. In brief, the idea of a Middle East war has been bandied about in Israel for many years as a means of enhancing Israeli security, which revolves around an ultimate solution to the Palestinian problem.


War and expulsion

To understand why Israeli leaders would want a Middle East war, it is first necessary to take a brief look at the history of the Zionist movement and its goals. Despite public rhetoric to the contrary, the idea of expelling (or, in the accepted euphemism, "transferring") the indigenous Palestinian population was an integral part of the Zionist effort to found a Jewish national state in Palestine. Historian Tom Segev writes:


The idea of transfer had accompanied the Zionist movement from its very beginnings, first appearing in Theodore Herzl's diary. In practice, the Zionists began executing a mini-transfer from the time they began purchasing the land and evacuating the Arab tenants.... "Disappearing" the Arabs lay at the heart of the Zionist dream, and was also a necessary condition of its existence.... With few exceptions, none of the Zionists disputed the desirability of forced transfer — or its morality.
However, Segev continues, the Zionist leaders learned not to publicly proclaim their plan of mass expulsion because "this would cause the Zionists to lose the world's sympathy." [4]

The key was to find an opportune time to initiate the expulsion so it would not incur the world's condemnation. In the late 1930s, David Ben-Gurion wrote: "What is inconceivable in normal times is possible in revolutionary times; and if at this time the opportunity is missed and what is possible in such great hours is not carried out — a whole world is lost." [5] The "revolutionary times" would come with the first Arab-Israeli war in 1948, when the Zionists were able to expel 750,000 Palestinians (more than 80 percent of the indigenous population), and thus achieve an overwhelmingly Jewish state, though its area did not include the entirety of Palestine, or the "Land of Israel," which Zionist leaders thought necessary for a viable state.

The opportunity to grab additional land occurred as a result of the 1967 war; however, that occupation brought with it the problem of a large Palestinian population. By that time world opinion was totally opposed to forced population transfers, equating such a policy with the unspeakable horror of Nazism. The landmark Fourth Geneva Convention, ratified in 1949, had "unequivocally prohibited deportation" of civilians under occupation. [6] Since the 1967 war, the major question in Israeli politics has been: What to do with that territory and its Palestinian population?

It was during the 1980s, with the coming to power of the right-wing Likud government, that the idea of expulsion resurfaced publicly. And this time it was directly tied to a larger war, with destabilization of the Middle East seen as a precondition for Palestinian expulsion. Such a proposal, including removal of the Palestinian population, was outlined in an article by Oded Yinon, titled "A Strategy for Israel in the 1980s," appearing in the World Zionist Organization's periodical Kivunim in February 1982. Yinon had been attached to the Israeli Foreign Ministry and his article undoubtedly reflected high-level thinking in the Israeli military and intelligence establishment. The article called for Israel to bring about the dissolution and fragmentation of the Arab states into a mosaic of ethnic groupings. Thinking along those lines, Ariel Sharon stated on March 24, 1988, that if the Palestinian uprising continued, Israel would have to make war on her Arab neighbors. The war, he stated, would provide "the circumstances" for the removal of the entire Palestinian population from the West Bank and Gaza and even from inside Israel proper. [7]

Israeli foreign policy expert Yehoshafat Harkabi critiqued the war/expulsion scenario — referring to "Israeli intentions to impose a Pax Israelica on the Middle East, to dominate the Arab countries and treat them harshly" — in his very significant work, Israel's Fateful Hour, published in 1988. Writing from a realist perspective, Harkabi concluded that Israel did not have the power to achieve that goal, given the strength of the Arab states, the large Palestinian population involved, and the vehement opposition of world opinion. He hoped that "the failed Israeli attempt to impose a new order in the weakest Arab state — Lebanon — will disabuse people of similar ambitions in other territories." [8] Left unconsidered by Harkabi was the possibility that the United States would act as Israel's proxy to achieve the overall goal.


U.S. Realpolitik

In the 1970s and 1980s, U.S. Middle Eastern policy, although sympathetic to Israel, was not identical to that of Israel. The fundamental goal of U.S. policy was to promote stable governments in the Middle East that would allow oil to flow reliably to the Western industrial nations. It was not necessary for the Muslim countries to befriend Israel — in fact they could openly oppose the Jewish state. The United States worked for peace between Israel and the Muslim states in the region, but it was to be a peace that would accommodate the demands of the Muslim nations — most crucially their demands involving the Palestinians.

Pursuing its policy of ensuring the security of Middle East oil supplies, by the mid 1980s Washington was heavily supporting Iraq in her war against Iran, although for a while the United States had also provided some aid to Iran (viz. the Iran-contra scandal). Ironically, Donald Rumsfeld was the U.S. envoy who in 1983 paved the way for the restoration of relations with Iraq, relations which had been severed in 1967. The United States along with other Western nations looked upon Iraq as a bulwark against the radical Islamism of the Ayatollah's Iran, which threatened Western oil interests. U.S. support for Iraq included intelligence information, military equipment, and agricultural credits. And the United States deployed the largest naval force since the Vietnam War in the Persian Gulf. Ostensibly sent for the purpose of protecting oil tankers, it ended up engaging in serious attacks on Iran's navy.

It was during this period of U.S. support that Iraq used poison gas against the Iranians and the Kurds, a tactic that the U.S. government and its media supporters now describe as so horrendous. In fact, U.S. intelligence facilitated the Iraqi use of gas against the Iranians. In addition, Washington eased up on its own technology export restrictions to Iraq, which allowed the Iraqis to import supercomputers, machine tools, poisonous chemicals, and even strains of anthrax and bubonic plague. In short, the United States helped arm Iraq with the very weaponry of horror that administration officials are now trumpeting as justification for forcibly removing Saddam from power. [9]

When the Iran/Iraq war ended in 1988, the United States continued its support for Iraq, showering her with military hardware, advanced technology, and agricultural credits. The United States apparently looked to Saddam to maintain stability in the Gulf. But American policy swiftly changed when Iraq invaded Kuwait in August 1990. Neoconservatives were hawkish in generating support for a U.S. war against Iraq. The Committee for Peace and Security in the Gulf, headed by Richard Perle, was set up to promote the war. [10] And neoconservative war hawks such as Perle, Frank Gaffney, Jr., A.M. Rosenthal, William Safire, and The Wall Street Journal held that America's war objective should be not simply to drive Iraq out of Kuwait but also to destroy Iraq's military potential, especially her capacity to develop nuclear weapons. The first Bush administration embraced that position. [11]

But beyond that, the neocons hoped that the war would lead to the removal of Saddam Hussein and the American occupation of Iraq. However, despite the urgings of then-Defense Secretary Richard Cheney and Undersecretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz, the full conquest of Iraq was never accomplished because of the opposition of General Colin Powell, chairman of the Joint Chiefs, and General Norman Schwarzkopf, the field commander. [12] Moreover, the United States had a UN mandate only to liberate Kuwait, not to remove Saddam. To attempt the latter would have caused the U.S.-led coalition to fall apart. America's coalition partners in the region, especially Turkey and Saudi Arabia, feared that the elimination of Saddam's government would cause Iraq to fragment into warring ethnic and religious groups. That could have involved a Kurdish rebellion in Iraq that would have spread to Turkey's own restive Kurdish population. Furthermore, Iraq's Shiites might have fallen under the influence of Iran, increasing the threat of Islamic radicalism in the region.


Not only did the Bush administration dash neoconservative hopes by leaving Saddam in place, but its proposed "New World Order," as implemented by Secretary of State James Baker, conflicted with neoconservative/Israeli goals, being oriented toward placating the Arab coalition that supported the war. That entailed an effort to curb Israeli control of her occupied territories. The Bush administration demanded that Israel halt the construction of new settlements in the occupied territories as a condition for receiving $10 billion in U.S. loan guarantees for Israel's resettlement of hundreds of thousands of immigrants from the former Soviet Union. Although Bush would cave in to American pro-Zionist pressure just prior to the November 1992 election, his resistance disaffected many neocons, causing some, such as Safire, to back Bill Clinton in the 1992 election. [13]

To part two

http://www.thornwalker.com/ditch/snieg_conc1.htm


go to link to access parts 2 to 5
by Caoimhe Butterly, Baghdad
Saturday May 3rd, 2003 12:02 AM
The road to Faluja is strewn with discarded tanks and burned out cars and palm groves whose depth of green contrasts strikingly with the parched earth leading out of Baghdad.

Its atmosphere, upon entry, is markedly different from that of Baghdad. The American military presence is much less pronounced, and there is a marked absence of foreign press. Faluja, it seems, is not bleeding enough to lead.

Passing by children bathing in a river set aglow by the setting sun, families returning home from the fields, groups of old men heading to prayer, we make our way to Faluja General Hospital, whose morgue last night served as temporary home for the bodies of ten men, a young woman and a ten year old boy. The influx of the 37 wounded has ceased, the blood now cleaned from the floors, the mourning keening woman brought home. The anger, however is still here.

Its presence cannot be dealt with by the hospital staff as efficiently as they patched up, with limited pain killers, surgical equipment, blood bags, and IV lines, the 37 people who were carried into them from 10pm onwards last night -- all shot with 50mm high caliber bullets -- blowing off legs, ripping open abdominal cavities, shattering bones, tearing through muscles. Searing anger, distrust and pain onto a community's collective memory.

"They are sick. They are deeply, deeply sick. Tell the Americans we don't believe in this freedom," says an elderly man. His comment is one of the many of the crowd that surround us yelling their pain and anger -- demanding an explanation, a response -- "Why?"

"Why do they insist on continuing to massacre our people -- how much more blood do they want?"

"Show them, show the world, tell them the truth."

Later, we move on, to the school occupied by the American military for the past week. It is here that -- we are told -- a non-violent, orderly demonstration to the school took place last night. All those interviewed, all those crowded outside the school now, insist that the official US version is false. They gathered peacefully, and marched peacefully, past the mosque through a residential area to the barbed wire coils that surround the occupied school.

The American troops are packing up as we arrive. This is not a media stunt -- the media have come and gone -- a constant traffic, all day, through the hospital. Pictures taken, grief and loss encapsulated into palatable sound bites. This withdrawal is tactical. The public relations campaign of a benign occupation will be difficult to maintain if there are any follow-ups to this particular massacre, if there are charges pressed by the families, or by the brothers who were hit by stray bullets inside their house.

It will be surprising if there is ever an investigation into the legitimacy of the official army version of events.

Falluja has become a focal center for people's anger and frustration, with an occupied school, snipers pointing guns at people entering and exiting the mosque. It is easier for everyone if the soldiers slip off into the night, avoiding the scrutiny, the fixed eye of accountability which must be a factor in any "liberated" and "democratic" country.

So they do slip off into the night -- and, not recognizing us as their armoured cars and trucks pass our car on a dark highway to Baghdad, American soldiers pump their fists into the air for our cameras, giving us the victory sign.

Liberation -- an ephemeral, passing phenomena has come and gone in Falluja. It came, sat uncomfortably for a week -- without translators, cultural or historical sensibility -- brought a temporary horde of journalists to record its only lasting impression on a community: that of violence, and pain, and loss and then left.

Falluja, we learn later from a BBC reporter, has always been "anti-American". This should, and will, nullify or calm any murmurings of distrust abroad as to what lies ahead.

Caoimhe Butterly is an Irish peace activist with the Iraq Peace Team in Baghdad.
by Mark
Saturday May 3rd, 2003 6:30 AM
Bush worse than Saddam? Bush has the power to send ICBM's to any point on earth. He has the power to destroy millions of people in a single day. Do you feel comfortable with this kind of power in the hands of a person who is deluded into thinking he has a divine mission and is responsible only to his gut feelings?
by Mark Bahner
(mark.bahner [at] sbcglobal.net) Saturday May 3rd, 2003 9:26 AM
The U.S. should hold a vote in Fallujah, and if a majority of people want them to leave, they should leave the town.
by Mark Bahner
Saturday May 3rd, 2003 9:38 AM
"But sending us bombs whilst your armies stationed everywhere to protect the despots of your choice will not win you the hearts and minds."

Well, we got rid of a despot (who murdered literally 100,000s of thousands of his own people), and that doesn't seem to make us too popular, either.

Hopefully, the U.S. will just get all its troops out of the entire Middle East. Getting them out of Saudi Arabia is certainly a good start
by Mark
Saturday May 3rd, 2003 10:30 AM
What if Hussein had been twice as brutal to his people but had allowed US oil companies to expoit Iraq's natural resources? Would the US then used force to remove him in order to liberate his people?
by human being
Saturday May 3rd, 2003 11:09 AM
B.U.S.H
Bush, blair, Sharon, Howard are ONE.
If they were human, red blood,, they never do it. IF Shaddam Hussin, also included in BUSH name.. Not innocent Iraqi people....
by Kurt Weir
(kweir [at] slonet.org) Saturday May 3rd, 2003 7:47 PM
Army of the occupation has never been done politely.
People are confused by the change of the spokesmodels put into office by the Neocon Military Industrial Complex (MIC). The same people that are feeding Bush II with his current ideas and plans are the same group that ran the Reagan and Bush I administrations. These are the people that that President Eisenhower warned us against in his farewell speech to America. See a transcript of these speech at the following URL.
<http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/ike.htm>

Here are mentions in the "Cristian Science Monitor" and a comment by Bill Moyers, one of the few TV journalists in the US who still has not cowed to this group.
<http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0213/p02s03-uspo.html>
<http://www.pbs.org/now/commentary/moyers21.html>

The MIC has been active since the end of WWII, when they converted the industrial war machine developed during the war to produce a consumer society. They pushed consumers to buy and now convince people that they "need" all kinds of things that are not only necessary, but are harmful to them. (Tobacco, fast food, etc.) They have produced a society where most of the people are completely obsessed with entertainment in the form of sports, TV, movies music, video games, etc. In the ROman Empire this was called "Bread and Circuses." See the following article in the "New American." <http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/2003/02-10-2003/vo19no03_bread.htm>

The domination of the mass media is continuing, with plans to reduce regulation of the airwaves, so that single corporations can dominate markets. The argument is that it is for the reason of efficiency and competitiveness. The main goal is to allow monopolies. If you check back in US history to the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century, when monopolies ran America, you can get a glimpse of what is coming. It was not pretty for the average person. WIth the advent of computer methods to watch over our communications and financial transactions, we are rapidly approaching the "Big Brother" type of state forshadowed by George Orwell's book "1984".

Note the double speak and lies that we are hearing from the MIC. They are now claiming to be the heroes by defeating the evil Taliban, Al Queda and Saddam Hussein. What they do not say is that the MIC was the group that brought these people into power when they needed them to fight the Soviet Union and the Iranian Islamic state. They created these forces and brought the terroist attacks on the US because once the Soviet Union was out of Afghanistan they left the Afghan people with a war-ravaged country and no support. Afghanistan is now falling back into a combination of war lord and Taliban controlled areas.

Where was the MIC when Saddam was using chemical weapons on Iranians and Kurds? They were right at his side, giving him intelligence and monetary support. Only when he went he stopped doing their bidding and took over Kuwait did they start calling him and evil dictator. Thus the blood of the millions that he killed are on the hands of the MIC and by our inaction, on the hands of the people of the United States.

We must work to stop this madness before the rest of the world unites against us and destroys us. After all, Bush II said that he was a uniter. Even though the US is the only superpower, it cannot fight the etire rest of the world, either militarily, or economically. All that OPEC has to do to destroy us is to only eccept euros as payment for oil. The dollar will drop in value and the US will fall from within. They don't even need to fire a shot.
by Nathan Hale
Sunday May 4th, 2003 9:54 PM
we will reap what we sow.... the US has become a great evil that supports nothing but greed and slavery across this planet. Expect no mercy when the Muslims come for us because we gave none when we could. We even disarmed them (the Iraqis) before we attacked....not very sporting was it. Then we go off on WMD tirades when all along the US was iusing its own version of their own WMD DU (Depleted Uranium) ahhhh a dirty bomb even Dr. Strangelove could love.... except that not only will it takeout and kill Iraquis and poison the ME this DU also poisons and kills our own soldiers and spreads DU dust around the planet too. America you once we great no you have become a police state at home and pirates in your white house you have two choices : stop the pirates yourselves or the world will stop them the way your soldiers shoot at peace protestors in Iraq.
by Americans HATE Arabs; blatant open racism
Monday May 5th, 2003 1:54 AM
--"Well, we got rid of a despot (who murdered literally 100,000s of thousands of his own people), and that doesn't seem to make us too popular, either."

First of all, Saddam Hussein killed at most hundreds per year not 100,000 as you say.

Second, "we got rid of [the] despot" by bombing, shooting and killing thousands of civilians in the process (at least 2,700 dead and probably far more) and wounding and maiming many thousands more.

Think about it for a minute. This is just as wrong as 9-11. Iraqi civilians are no less human and no less important than American civilians. If you can't come to terms with that, than at least come to terms with the fact that you are a racist.

I know you have been brainwashed by Hollywood and your TV set to hate Arabs above all others, so I shouldn't really blame you. But when you talk as though the deaths of Iraqi civilians mean nothing, then it's time to point out your hatred and ignorance -- it's a hatred based on ignorance because if you had the opportunity to get to know real Iraqis (or any other Arabs for that matter), you couldn't possibly think the way you do. They are far more sophisticated and intelligent then you know.

They understand for instance that this is an imperial war that has nothing to do with freeing them.

They understand, even if you don't, that the US government has bombed and strafed them for control of oil resources and also in order to help Israel expand its territory to include the occupied Golan Heights, West Bank, Gaza Strip, and some parts of Lebanon. And to protect Israel from its neighbors even when Israel attacks their neighbors as they have always done.

I bet you even believe that Israel was attacked 4, 5, or 6 times because that's what your television and the movies tell you. Fact is, Israel always did the attacking except in 1973 when Egypt attacked Israeli positions on occupied Egyptian territory-- occupied by Israel 6 years earlier in an attack they initiated. And their attacks led to the deaths of 2000 Lebanese in 1978; 20,000 Lebanese in 1982; the expulsion of 800,000 Palestinians in 1948 through massacres of around 40 Palestinian villages; expulsion of around 340,000 Palestinians in 1967 and 160,000 Syrians from the Golan Heights also in that year. But of course, you won't believe me when I tell you that Israel started these wars and that you are brainwashed but those are facts. You're lying media has programmed you to hate Arabs by spinning fairy tales about the history of the Arab-Israeli conflict; making the real victims out to be the aggressors and the aggressor (Israel) always the hapless victim.

Hopefully you'll deprogram yourself before supporting more horrendous crimes against Arabs (like the 14 year old girl who died when her guts fell out when she tried to stand up after a US missile attack on her home). If that doesn't disturb you, then there is something really sick and terribly wrong with you.
by Saddened
Monday May 5th, 2003 5:12 AM
I nominate Al-Fallujah as the location for the next series of "American Survivor".
by Rod Freeman
Monday May 5th, 2003 4:05 PM
I find it hard to be angry at either side knowing that they are both STOOGES in a 300+ year old plan that is still using us, against ourselves. That saying "those that don't remember history, are doomed to repeat it" is very real in 2003! Are you ready for the history lesson that your government school never told you about? http://www.usa-the-republic.com/illuminati/fagan_recording.html
by Bush & Blaire
(Bush&Blaire [at] Crusades.com) Tuesday May 6th, 2003 5:03 AM
I find myself quite saddened for the blacks that were enslaved years ago. I also realise that even after slavery ended they were persecuted everywhere they went. They were mistreated. When a black man entered a shop he would be watched because the ignorant white man would expect him to steal something. This eventualy rubbed off on them and many blacks began to steal since poverty struck them hard. Soon you found other races of people also mistreating blacks and expecting them to steal or kill or do some sort of evil. They were not innocent till proven guilty.

Similary today I find where ever a muslim man or a muslim woman walks on the streets, you find the same ignorance on the faces of these westerners. They all want to assume this is a terrorist. Look at his islamic dress and his beard and his islamic hat. Look at her islamic dress with her head and face covered. They are watched in a very same manner.

It seems racism hasn't ended with these people. It has shifted where the media wants it to be shifted.
by Kcalb Nam
Tuesday May 6th, 2003 1:11 PM
Stop it, grow up. No one really cares about you being Muslim. The only thing America doesn't like about you is that YOU ARE NOT WHITE. That is something you cant change. The only real criticism of Islam is based in the fact that it's associated with nonwhites. I get so tired of Muslims, Arabs, Indians, Pakistanis etc. complaining about politics and the way they are treated. Step up to the real horror. YOU ARE NOT WHITE. Start from there and go forward. If you weren't white wanna be's it would be easy to understand. The pain of this problem rests on you.
by Peacock Jesus
(owilliamson [at] fulbright.com) Tuesday May 6th, 2003 1:40 PM
Great!! Another massacre.
p.s (check out infowars.com)
a plug
by D-day
Tuesday May 6th, 2003 3:01 PM
14th century. Round up Imams and hang them? Have you taken leave of your sense sir? have you no sense of decency?

Muslim extremists do not kill us as a result of their religion. That is totally silly! They use their religion as an excuse to justify war against us because that's what desperation commands.

We allow our country to come in and totally destroy their economies rape their natural resources. Then the average idiotic American, I know plenty I live here, wonders why they hate us.

They hate us because we're so damn ignorant of what our gigantic corporations do to them and their families.

If we were to get of our prime time TV watching asses and hold our leaders and their corporate sponsors accountable (both major parties), perhaps we might gain some respect and security in the international community.

But until then, Imams and all the other extremist entrnched in poverty will only see common everyday americans as their enemy. Meanwhile the corporate elite will sit tucked far away in their fallout shelters drinking martini's when the Terror strikes.

Its high time we depose our own leadership, the real Terrorists in the world. Right now!
by Mr.Nadir
Tuesday May 6th, 2003 3:58 PM

The whole world knows that Iraq posed no threat to anyone...except,of course,the United States.This "War On Terrorism" ,if it were real,would be no more winnable than if you were in the middle of the Pacific Ocean in a dinghy with a scoop and a pail and declared a "War On Salt Water".Sadly,though,this "War On Terrorism was planned by velociraptors like Wolfowitz and Perle.If it's still up,check out the Project for the New American Century report released Sept.2000 titled,"Rebuilding America's Defenses".Some of the signatories include Donald Rumsfeld,Perle,Wolfowitz,and,oddly,Jeb Bush(cover for George,I'll bet).In this report,they(almost forgot William Kristol) say that their "benevolent hegemony" will take a long time to implement-UNLESS THERE IS A "CATASTROPHIC AND CATALYZING EVENT...LIKE A NEW PEARL HARBOR". A year to the month later,we have Boeings inserting themselves into buildings,and an administration that does not want an investigation into one of the greatest catastrophes in United States history.We have a ominous media silence on all the curiosities,contradictions,and cover-ups surrounding what DIDN'T happen that day.We have a "war" in Afghanistan that killed 3,500+ innocent people,and a "war"(that the admin.LIED TO THE WORLD ABOUT) in Iraq that killed over 1,000(and counting) more innocents. We have an unelected "president" comparing unprecedented ,worldwide PRE-WAR protests to "focus groups",and we have this same ex-National Guardsman (who went AWOL from same) getting major photo-ops from the Bootlick Media by landing on an aircraft carrier to say a whole lot of nothing.
If I had the money,I would find a remote island somewhere and live there....but I'm afraid that the US will find it and take it,just like they did Hawaii !
by Abbie
(abaleada [at] juno.com) Tuesday May 6th, 2003 10:42 PM
No Business as Usual During the Invasion!
Not in Our Name!
-Abbie
by Paul
Wednesday May 7th, 2003 1:09 AM
I am proud to be American, but I am deeply ashamed of our government and what it has become. Tyranny is on the way and we desperately need prayers.
by Runamukus
Wednesday May 7th, 2003 7:19 AM
Where to start! We cannot vote the bastards out of office because the elections are rigged in the first place. So in order to fix the problem, you have to eliminate the problem. To do that is simple! First you must change how the voting system works. We CANNOT have private corps. counting PUBLIC VOTES! WE CANNOT have COMPUTERS counting our votes - as a computer tech/programmer - I know that they can be rigged so easily!
WE CANNOT have the electoral college anymore! We need to count EVERY person in a NATIONAL election without influence from MEDIA or lies from Corporations. IF you want to include the computer for voting then do it like this. You have a computer with a touch screen, you select whom you wish to vote for and the computer then prints out 2 copies of the ballot with your selected candidates. THEN you turn it in and a PUBLIC appointed committee would count the votes. There is no other way! KEEP OUT THE PRIVATE CORPS and the devilish MEDIA!
THEN and ONLY THEN it will be worth voting.

Peace and love to the world. I must say that this is not how a government acts - and it is not by public choice that Bush is in power. I hope that in 2004 someone will overcome this evil tyrant and get rid of Rummy, Cheney, Bush and Ashcroft – the true AXIS OF EVIL!

-Runamukus
by T. Scott Curts
(Mindplague [at] excite.com) Wednesday May 7th, 2003 8:50 AM
First of all I believe these pictures are depicting what they say is being depicted even though I can't see it in any one of them. I just happened to pop on this site from a link hoping to see something that I could be sure of, but I can't, so I'm going on faith at the moment. Second: I think they (US soldiers) did the right thing. I see their choices as: run, fight, or die watching themselvs be shot. It's not the US soldiers that should be shunned for this act, it has to be the cowardly nature of the attack on them.
by Raheel Raza
(raheelraza [at] hotmail.com) Wednesday May 7th, 2003 10:05 AM
hi im with Iraq and with inocent people.
by Patriot
(mro2000_1999 [at] yahoo.com) Wednesday May 7th, 2003 11:06 AM
It really saddens me to hear some of these comments. Is the US the only country to use propaganda? I see all these articles blaming the US for this and that. And then use pictures and articles of biased organizations to back up there propaganda. Uninformed citizen 1: See these pictures I got off of Al Jazeera, they prove they US is satan. They are much more balanced than american media. OK.whatever. I hope all that have made complaints here at least vote. Not just every four years either, for every election they are eligible. Other wise shut up. If you are not a citizen. Shut up. Become one then we will listen. Some of you may have read our constitution and declararation if Independence. But I bet not all. Do it. Otherwise dont waste others time spouting about what this government can and cant do. Its not perfect. But its the best around. One final note. Email me and I will send anyone a one way ticket to either Iraq, Iran, Syria, North Korea, or Egypt. Especially if you are Christian. Then email me after a year. If you are alive.
by REAL Patriot
Wednesday May 7th, 2003 1:50 PM
How about money for moving expenses? Money for a job search? Either put your money where your mouth is, or SHUT UP.
by VanMan
Wednesday May 7th, 2003 4:39 PM
I am disgusted with all you reactionaries. How dare you judge by a few photgraphs! I AM DAMN PROUD TO BE AMERICAN! All you haters can leave! Do you know the story behind this? No! What I know is that these PATRIOTS that are in the Armed Forces, are doing their best and any move which any commander would even think was wrong would end these troops in Levenworth. That is a Military prison for you folks ignorant to such things. I AM DAMN PROUD OF ALL THE SOLDIERS DOING THIER BEST TO SURVIVE!
by Bush Admirer
Wednesday May 7th, 2003 5:45 PM
Way to go, VanMan. Whenever we conservatives have nothing intelligent to say, we can always resort to the trusty "love it or leave it." It has served us well. It really helps to show what simpletons we are. Great job!
by Bush Admirer
Wednesday May 7th, 2003 5:53 PM
Way to go, VanMan. Whenever we conservatives have nothing intelligent to say, we can always resort to the trusty "love it or leave it." It has served us well. It really helps to show what simpletons we are. Great job!
by Bush Admirer
Wednesday May 7th, 2003 6:03 PM
Way to go, VanMan. Whenever we conservatives have nothing intelligent to say, we can always resort to the trusty "love it or leave it." It has served us well. It really helps to show what simpletons we are. Great job!
by Bush Admirer
Wednesday May 7th, 2003 6:13 PM
Way to go, VanMan. Whenever we conservatives have nothing intelligent to say, we can always resort to the trusty "love it or leave it." It has served us well. It really helps to show what simpletons we are. Great job!
by Abel Ashes
(abelashes [at] yahoo.com) Wednesday May 7th, 2003 8:58 PM
To those who "justify" this slaughter I say....
I will NOT give you the satisfaction of making me "ashamed to be an American"!
Look up the word "liberation" in the dictionary, then look at the photos of adults and children alike being shot for demanding that FOREIGN INVADERS leave THEIR COUNTRY!
It's NOT YOUR COUNTRY!
It's NOT MY COUNTRY!
Question: Are any of you pro-murder freaks Iraqi citizens?
What's that?Did you say no YOU ARE NOT IRAQI CITIZENS?
Then shut the fuck up!
PRO-MURDER FREAKS ARE COWARDS WITH PUFFED UP CHESTS AND VIVYL SPINES!
There is one more thing I've got to say to you militaristic, boot licking, vampires getting your tiny woodies from seeing things that ANY NORMAL, SANE HUMAN BEING would find SICKENING, DEPRESSING, & ENRAGING, and that is this: While there are many reasons why immigrants from around the world have sought U.S. citizenship the biggest reasons have to do with two documents written by our less than perfect slave master "forefathers", those being The Constitution and the Bill of Rights.Don't you realise that the fact that those two documents are supposed to be the iron clad invincible law of land is the ONLY reason the United States has not YET been turned into a TOTAL DICTATORSHIP!
READ THE CONSTITUTION and THE BILL OF RIGHTS, then compare it to the "USA Patriot Act', "The Homeland Security Act", "The Domestic Security Enhancement Act", and in case you think this is liberal vs. conservative football game mentality nonesense be sure to check out "Patriot Act 0.5" as I call it, that being Bill Clinton's evil "Anti-Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act" passed after the Oklahoma City problem-reaction-solution bombing scam.
Please look these things up.THEY ARE ALL EASILY ACCESSIBLE ONLINE!!!!!
Do a Google search or something!
If you don't care enough to see the obvious (that the Constitution and Bill of Rights mean NOTHING to our corrupt government) then are you REALLY taking your American citizenship SERIOUSLY?
BUSH IS NOT AN AMERICAN!!!!!
HE IS A TRAITOR!!!!!!
The Constitution and The Bill of Rights are the most beautiful things our country has ever produced, other than Native American culture and blues, jazz, rock, and hiphop (which were ALL CREATED by the decendants of men and women who went through their very own American holocaust called slavery).
To protect the Constitution from "enemies foreign AND DOMESTIC" is YOUR DUTY!
Those who support this unConstitutional war fall into two catagories: FOOLS and TRAITORS!
Which are you?
There is NO WAR ON IRAQ!There is a WAR ON THE WORLD, a war that "WILL NOT END IN OUR LIFETIMES", a war for a final grab for totalitarian global government as the energy commodities we have built virtually all of modern civilisation on ARE RUNNING OUT!
Do you support endless war?Do you want to get drafted?
Just keep laughing at Iraqi families who die defending their country from despotic criminal syndicates, the SAME criminal syndicates will eventually come for YOUR FAMILY!
Won't that be fun?

Did you know treaties have been signed between the U.S., Canada, and Mexico which have effectively merged our militaries?It went into effect October 1st 2002!!!!Below is the OFFICIAL U.S. Military website for the North American Military Command, AKA Northern Command, AKA NORTHCOM:
http://www.northcom.mil

Know you enemy:
http://www.darpa.mil
http://www.csis.org
http://www.newamericancentury.org
http://www.fema.gov
http://www.ready.gov
http://www.homelandsecurity.org
http://www.aei.org

Learn about the REAL WORLD!
It's not like in the movies!
http://www.madcowprod.com
http://www.infowars.com
http://www.globalresearch.ca
http://www.onlinejournal.com
http://www,propagandamatrix.com
http://www.bilderberg.org
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org

...and last, but certainly not least learn about the WMD wielding terrorists right here in San Francisco's backyard: Livermore....
http://www.trivalleycares.org

Wake up and fight for truth, justice, and liberty!
NO MORE BOWING TO BUSH!
Bush means nothing!
He's just a puppet with evil bastards like Richard "Prince of Darkness" Perle's hands up his ass making him lie to you!
Quit making excuses and STAND UP FOR YOUR COUNTRY!
It's being turned a domestic POLICE STATE , while you are busy being overjoyed that kids are being shot for opposing the hostile take over of their country by Mafia style international banking scum who are just fine with letting you and yours take the blame!
To PRO-MURDER FREAKS and CONSTITUTION HATING PRO-ESTABLISHMENT ELITE BLOWERS I say in conclusion:YOUR CITIZENSHIP HAS BEEN SELF-REVOKED!
YOU GET THE FUCK OUT!


by Abel Ashes
(abelashes [at] yahoo.com) Wednesday May 7th, 2003 9:08 PM
To those who "justify" this slaughter I say.... I will NOT give you the satisfaction of making me "ashamed to be an American"! Look up the word "liberation" in the dictionary, then look at the photos of adults and children alike being shot for demanding that FOREIGN INVADERS leave THEIR COUNTRY! It's NOT YOUR COUNTRY! It's NOT MY COUNTRY! Question: Are any of you pro-murder freaks Iraqi citizens? What's that?Did you say no YOU ARE NOT IRAQI CITIZENS? Then shut the fuck up! PRO-MURDER FREAKS ARE COWARDS WITH PUFFED UP CHESTS AND VIVYL SPINES! There is one more thing I've got to say to you militaristic, boot licking, vampires getting your tiny woodies from seeing things that ANY NORMAL, SANE HUMAN BEING would find SICKENING, DEPRESSING, & ENRAGING, and that is this: While there are many reasons why immigrants from around the world have sought U.S. citizenship the biggest reasons have to do with two documents written by our less than perfect slave master "forefathers", those being The Constitution and the Bill of Rights.Don't you realise that the fact that those two documents are supposed to be the iron clad invincible law of land is the ONLY reason the United States has not YET been turned into a TOTAL DICTATORSHIP! READ THE CONSTITUTION and THE BILL OF RIGHTS, then compare it to the "USA Patriot Act', "The Homeland Security Act", "The Domestic Security Enhancement Act", and in case you think this is liberal vs. conservative football game mentality nonesense be sure to check out "Patriot Act 0.5" as I call it, that being Bill Clinton's evil "Anti-Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act" passed after the Oklahoma City problem-reaction-solution bombing scam. Please look these things up.THEY ARE ALL EASILY ACCESSIBLE ONLINE!!!!! Do a Google search or something! If you don't care enough to see the obvious (that the Constitution and Bill of Rights mean NOTHING to our corrupt government) then are you REALLY taking your American citizenship SERIOUSLY? BUSH IS NOT AN AMERICAN!!!!! HE IS A TRAITOR!!!!!! The Constitution and The Bill of Rights are the most beautiful things our country has ever produced, other than Native American culture and blues, jazz, rock, and hiphop (which were ALL CREATED by the decendants of men and women who went through their very own American holocaust called slavery). To protect the Constitution from "enemies foreign AND DOMESTIC" is YOUR DUTY! Those who support this unConstitutional war fall into two catagories: FOOLS and TRAITORS! Which are you? There is NO WAR ON IRAQ!There is a WAR ON THE WORLD, a war that "WILL NOT END IN OUR LIFETIMES", a war for a final grab for totalitarian global government as the energy commodities we have built virtually all of modern civilisation on ARE RUNNING OUT! Do you support endless war?Do you want to get drafted? Just keep laughing at Iraqi families who die defending their country from despotic criminal syndicates, the SAME criminal syndicates will eventually come for YOUR FAMILY! Won't that be fun? Did you know treaties have been signed between the U.S., Canada, and Mexico which have effectively merged our militaries?It went into effect October 1st 2002!!!!Below is the OFFICIAL U.S. Military website for the North American Military Command, AKA Northern Command, AKA NORTHCOM: http://www.northcom.mil Know you enemy: http://www.darpa.mil http://www.csis.org http://www.newamericancentury.org http://www.fema.gov http://www.ready.gov http://www.homelandsecurity.org http://www.aei.org Learn about the REAL WORLD! It's not like in the movies! http://www.madcowprod.com http://www.infowars.com http://www.globalresearch.ca http://www.onlinejournal.com http://www,propagandamatrix.com http://www.bilderberg.org http://www.cooperativeresearch.org ...and last, but certainly not least learn about the WMD wielding terrorists right here in San Francisco's backyard: Livermore.... http://www.trivalleycares.org Wake up and fight for truth, justice, and liberty! NO MORE BOWING TO BUSH! Bush means nothing! He's just a puppet with evil bastards like Richard "Prince of Darkness" Perle's hands up his ass making him lie to you! Quit making excuses and STAND UP FOR YOUR COUNTRY! It's being turned a domestic POLICE STATE , while you are busy being overjoyed that kids are being shot for opposing the hostile take over of their country by Mafia style international banking scum who are just fine with letting you and yours take the blame! To PRO-MURDER FREAKS and CONSTITUTION HATING PRO-ESTABLISHMENT ELITE BLOWERS I say in conclusion:YOUR CITIZENSHIP HAS BEEN SELF-REVOKED! YOU GET THE FUCK OUT!
by Global Humanist, F** Race, Nation, & Religion
Wednesday May 7th, 2003 10:24 PM
Most people I know in the military are there because they needed money for school. They know US history so their enlistments weren't acts of love. Too bad these politicians (that the red-necks and simpletons love to fellate) can't provide for the common good (education, infrastructure, manufacturing and agriculture, etc) like they can provide for corporate welfare and militarism.
Any yokel who would still fellate congress and the president despite all the shady familial, academic, and business FACTS and RELATIONSHIPS on record is reminiscent of the WWII era German Sheople.
I USED TO have faith in the American people to defend our great country and Constitution from the INDUSTRIAL FASCISM spoken of by Presidents inumerable (Jackson, Eisenhower, et al). At this point in the fascist power consolidation, the propaganda matrix is too thick, our educational system inadequate, and our populace is too cynical and ignorant. All I see is the crumbling of many of our historically great institutions while we clutch empty symbols and utter empty slogans ("Support our troops"...What about GWV Illness, cuts in benefits, and the number of homeless vets?) (United We Stand...with who, Israel?, definitely not with the rest of the world or even each other when fellow Americans are basically saying shut-up or get out.) (I also see a lot of flags on gas guzzling SUV's and elsewhere. To bad the country was founded on a Constitution which has been eviscerated by PATRIOT I and II...most Americans know little or nothing about our Constitution and how it binds our society) This country is crumbling socially, economically, educationally, morally, and infrastructurally. Psychological Warfare works, as evidenced by the emotional bullshit spewed by every "Love it or leave it" hill billy with no factual logical basis to their argument. Fuck your flag, save the constitution.
by human
Thursday May 8th, 2003 4:32 AM
Have you been to Iraq? I have. Your comments are racist and based on emotion. Open your eyes, before we lose are beloved constitution and bill of rights.
by American to the core
(Noshortz2002 [at] hotmail.com) Thursday May 8th, 2003 8:16 AM
Ashamed! DO NOT GIVE UP! You say you already have, but I cannot accept that. You have clearly outlined much of the problem in OUR country. I was born and raised in Texas. I'm a veteran. I'm graduate of the University of Texas., etc., etc., This is not about self-aggrandizment. I just want YOU to know there are others who feel the same way and see things for what they are. Our Republic and OUR FREEDOMS are at stake. We have to band together to stop these anti-freedom, anti-constitutional lunatics. We are a distinct minority, it appears. But, PLEASE remember, "a small band of dedicated people can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear." Speak out, get involved. VOTE, the revolution occurs every 4 years. HANG IN THERE! No matter how bad it seems and no matter how bad it gets, WE'RE GONNA MAKE IT. Noshortz
by fence
Thursday May 8th, 2003 10:59 AM
I have heard enough from both sides. We have our Alex Jones who promotes next to hatred of anything political. He's a proud American? I have never heard him say anything nice to anyone or ever be in a happy frame of mind. Is his world that bad?
I watch the CNN's and I listen to Alex when reception allows. I know the bias's are there and there are some weak minded people that cling to every word, no matter what side.
If the left and the right is that bad, why don't people get out and create yet another party, spell out your truths. Let's hear debates. I get sick of hearing from one side all the time. Alex tends to have guests on his program that agree with him. How about some controversay. How about discussion. How about Alex interviewing people that he hates or disagrees with. How about some balance here.

We have the Alex Jones' of the world CONSTANTLY slamming the government. Am I to believe all that Alex Jones claims? He says he has proof on his issues. I never hear the proof. Often I have heard him say things on the air that are totally untrue and he accuses the government of the very same thing., but he cuts people off during his call ins.
Alex Jones is a hate promoter, a vigilanty, an agitator.

Instead of telling us what's wrong why not spend that same energy in bettering our world.
We know that government is not great. But Alex is adding to that which does not make it ANY better.

We need a voice such as Alex but let's do thing with a litlle more class. be proactive not reactive.

by fence
Thursday May 8th, 2003 11:01 AM
I have heard enough from both sides. We have our Alex Jones who promotes next to hatred of anything political. He's a proud American? I have never heard him say anything nice to anyone or ever be in a happy frame of mind. Is his world that bad?
I watch the CNN's and I listen to Alex when reception allows. I know the bias's are there and there are some weak minded people that cling to every word, no matter what side.
If the left and the right is that bad, why don't people get out and create yet another party, spell out your truths. Let's hear debates. I get sick of hearing from one side all the time. Alex tends to have guests on his program that agree with him. How about some controversay. How about discussion. How about Alex interviewing people that he hates or disagrees with. How about some balance here.

We have the Alex Jones' of the world CONSTANTLY slamming the government. Am I to believe all that Alex Jones claims? He says he has proof on his issues. I never hear the proof. Often I have heard him say things on the air that are totally untrue and he accuses the government of the very same thing., but he cuts people off during his call ins.
Alex Jones is a hate promoter, a vigilanty, an agitator.

Instead of telling us what's wrong why not spend that same energy in bettering our world.
We know that government is not great. But Alex is adding to that which does not make it ANY better.

We need a voice such as Alex but let's do thing with a litlle more class. be proactive not reactive.

by picket
Thursday May 8th, 2003 11:14 AM
"Alex tends to have guests on his program that agree with him. How about some controversay. How about discussion. How about Alex interviewing people that he hates or disagrees with. How about some balance
here."

Yeah, Rush Limbaugh's hate-filled program is REAL balanced.
by Patriot
Thursday May 8th, 2003 11:26 AM
I have been to Iraq. I am a racist? Wow. Against who? Muslims? Black people? Million dollar question. What race am I? The military has a bunch of people that are looking for school money? Find the enlistment oaths Russia had, Iraq used, the Nazi's used and tell me who was forced to be in the military. I see a lot of arm chair quarterbacks here. You read a lot of internet articles and have some special insight? But keep pushing on. The revolution does come every four years.
by fence
Thursday May 8th, 2003 11:34 AM
picket
Hey, don't read me wrong. I am not against Alex. I think all involved in the media have obligation to tell us what is real. I just think Alex should lighten up a bit. Every time I listen to him my blood pressure rises.
TO SOME EXTENT Alex is the other side but I also hear BS coming from his side too.

I would love to hear Alex on the CNN Crossfire show. I'd pay to see that. No interruptions, no cutting people off, no timer. I used to like Crossfire, don't any more due to bias. A new agenda of in-your-face Q&A.
by Patriot
(mro2000_1999 [at] yahoo.com) Thursday May 8th, 2003 11:37 AM
All i need is your info. One more thing to add. Look through these posts and observe who uses all the vulger language. This is one web site of billions. Calm down. Tip of the day: If someone slaps you. Stop and ask them why they did that. When they hit you again. Say "Cmon lets be friends". Then repeat both steps over and over and over and....
by fence
Thursday May 8th, 2003 11:41 AM
glad to hear your point of view. If anyone should know it would be you. YES, YOU'RE right we are armchair because we only know what we're told or read. How are we able to define what's real and what's made for the viewers to figure out. Let's face it, NEWS is a sale. if the news is boring people don't tune in.

But we don't know what's BS or not.
Now, how do you know what you're told by your superiors is ture or fabricated?
That's why I say we need some controversay.
Response. tell us more.
by REAL Patriot
Thursday May 8th, 2003 11:46 AM
"Email me and I will send anyone a one way ticket to either Iraq, Iran, Syria, North Korea, or Egypt."

How about money for moving expenses? Money for a job search? Either put your money where your mouth is, or SHUT UP.

by now you worry
Thursday May 8th, 2003 12:01 PM
How many innocent lives have been destroyed through abortion during the Bush administration?
Since 1973?
by Mike
Thursday May 8th, 2003 1:15 PM
Don’t blame the soldiers for the massacres. They have been put into a situation for which they were not trained. Even if they had received proper training, the decisions that they have to make are more than anyone can be expected to make. They are terrified for their lives and the lives of their fellow soldiers. Look at the pictures of the soldier firing the machine gun. This is not a picture of a cold-blooded killer! He is crouched down and scared. It does not matter if he was fired at or not. It only matters that he thought his life and the lives of his friends were in danger.

The people to blame are the profit and power hungry people who put them there. The group that now controls our government, and have for many years now, thinks that the US status as the only world superpower gives them absolute power to remake the world in their own image. The money of multinational corporations has bought the US government and with it they hope to gain more profits and more power. Money and power are just two sides of the same dirty coin. Unfortunately, as the old saying goes, “power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely!” The only answer will be to develop political systems, which prevent a single person or small group of people from gaining that much power. I don’t know how to do this?

They envision a world where multinational corporations run the world in a most efficient manner. A current ad for the Archer, Daniels, Midland Corporation gives away their plan. It states that in the future crops will be grown where they grow best. This means that they want to turn each country into a massive corporate farm or plantation where only a few crops are grown. They will also concentrate critical industries in just a few countries. No country will be self-sufficient. This is one reason why they complain so loudly about Japan protecting their farmers with import duties on food. If Japan can grow its own food, then they cannot control it by threatening to cut off food. When they have this type of control they will be able to dictate working conditions, wages, environmental laws and prices. If a country objects they will be cut off and the people will revolt, allowing the corporations to put in their own man, just as they are trying to do in Iraq.

This type of a situation has been written about in many science fiction stories for years. The movies Rollerball and Soyulent Green are both about worlds dominated by corporations. George Orwell’s 1984, Aldous Huxley’s Brave new World and Harry Harrison’s three book series, Home World, Wheel World and Star World are about such a situation on a galactic scale, where one plant did nothing but grow corn.

I’m not sure how to stop this trend, but educating people about it is a must. Even voting in elections in the US is not very useful, since the candidates of both parties are dependent upon big corporation money controlled by PACs. At least Sadam Hussien’s elections were honest, either vote for him or suffer. We in the US are given the illusion of having control over our government.
by Reeva Abrams
(amp [at] ampland.com) Thursday May 8th, 2003 1:53 PM
Hail Amerika the greatest MASS MURDERS in the 19, 20, 21. century. But remember one day this picture will be reversed, it will be Amerikans instead of defenseless arab women & children.

Ooo your soldiers are sooo good, they can shoot so straight, so good at killing women & children. Hope they know one day they'll face the real soldier.

So KILL ON !! 10,000 Iraqi's is nothing for you mass murderers.
by Reeva Abrams
(amp [at] ampland.com) Thursday May 8th, 2003 1:53 PM
Hail Amerika the greatest MASS MURDERS in the 19, 20, 21. century. But remember one day this picture will be reversed, it will be Amerikans instead of defenseless arab women & children.

Ooo your soldiers are sooo good, they can shoot so straight, so good at killing women & children. Hope they know one day they'll face the real soldier.

So KILL ON !! 10,000 Iraqi's is nothing for you mass murderers.
by Brent Callahan
Thursday May 8th, 2003 2:17 PM
Most of the people killed by the US military were soldiers and fedayeen fanatics. With little loss of life (compared to Saddams annual slayings and starvations). The unrefutable positive fact is that Saddam's regime is over and the Iraqi people are better off without him. The bottom line is that if you were against liberation, you were obviously a puppet or a malicious mouthpice for Saddam Hussein.

As President Bush said "free people will lead the course of history." If you don't believe that the US freeing Iraq is a good thing, what do you propose as an alternative?

Also, name any army in the world whose ass we could not kick.

Brent
by Brent Callahan
Thursday May 8th, 2003 2:23 PM
Brent Callahan will be convicted as a war criminal. URL references audio history on the illuminati
by Brent Callahan
Thursday May 8th, 2003 2:28 PM
Brent Callahan will be convicted as a war criminal.

URL references audio history on the illuminati
by George H.W. Bush
Thursday May 8th, 2003 2:30 PM
Saddam was my best puppet up until 1990. I didn't care about the Iraqi people until it was convenient for me.

by Preacher
Thursday May 8th, 2003 3:22 PM
Let's pan the camera out a little further.......

Judeo-Christian principles are what this country is built on. The men that framed the constitution were men - and not perfect like God is - the principles are perfect, not necessarily the practicioners. I know for a fact that - as this nation moves further from The True God, that bestowed the blessings we are taking for granted, the closer we get to certain destruction. We have forsaken God by becoming proud, lusting, slothful, gluttonous, etc - been to the movies lately - how about just watching the tv - how about a billboard - how about just walking down the street? Unless the US repents, the blessings will surely be taken away. This repentence will bring sound judgement to the citizens - then, the movement to properly take care of this current ruling family (i.e. The Bush clan) and establish officials with the true fear of God - not just an on camera only reverence. This won't happen though - if you want to read some applicable material, read the book of Jeremiah.

Islam has always been a great religion in governments to it's citizens - just look at all of the prosperity in the middle east - look at all of the wonderful decisions to be made - look at the great freedoms of the vast majority of people - the wealth and opportunity. Buddhism is great to all of its citizens too - just look at the far east - all of that Good Karma is paying off huh?. Hinduism is great to its citizens too - just look at the prosperity of India - the fresh, clean waters of the Ganges - where you're born into your caste and that's also where you'll die. What about Voodoo - Haiti is brimming with prosperity. How about the faith in man that is communism? That has given much to all men, right?

What are the foundations of the countries that we wish to discuss? The bedrock of The USA is the Bible. It has taken quite some time for it to be destroyed - but the devil's best weapon has always been gradualism. As we become more and more preoccupied with the trivial toys we can buy, the rug is being pulled right from underneath us. We are forgetting the God that made this country the bastion of freedom that it is - and is becoming not. What rich blessings we have and waste for the distractions of this world. Time is running shorter and shorter, ladies and gentlemen.

The wonderful thing about the US (for now) is that you have the decision to choose the True God of the Bible - or, you can refuse and go to hell. You do have choice in the US. It's amazing to me that within the US there are people who hate the US, but are protected by the law here to be that way. Even if they are able to provide for family far better than in their countries of origin. That is the same for God - you can forsake him as much as you wish - in this life you have a choice.

I follow the prophesy of the Bible and see that there will be a false peace upon the earth - I believe that this will be created through much of the same manipulation that is occurring right now - there will be a false peace, just as there is now a fabricated terror. This "terror" will continue to cripple the worldwide collective conscience, until the Anti-Christ comes to establish his false peace. Just take what has already been happening and you can clearly see that this is the end of the current means. Who could have known that we would have given up so many civil liberties over these past couple of years? I did, only because I know what the Bible teaches concerning the times and seasons with which we live.

The God of the Bible has given each man a decision to make - it can only be decided by the individual - no government agency can make this decision. Will you choose what Jesus Christ has done to pay for your sins - or will you choose your own works? There is no other means of atonement - only the Blood of Jesus.
by Atheist
Thursday May 8th, 2003 3:41 PM
In addition to God, what other fairy tales do you believe in? The tooth fairy? Santa Claus?
by Preacher
Thursday May 8th, 2003 4:14 PM
Mr Atheist,
You have your rights. God gave them to you. There will come a day when every knee shall bow and every mouth confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. We are in locked-step with eternity, sir. As long as you have breath in your lungs, you can still choose salvation. When God requires you of your soul, your time to decide is up. God's mercy upon you, sir when the "fairy tale" turns out to be the most sobering day you have ever experienced.
by Atheist
Thursday May 8th, 2003 4:22 PM
You didn't answer any of my questions.
by thinking...
Friday May 9th, 2003 2:07 AM
Preacher? do you think this atheist is being honest? I don't. ...I appreciate what you said, it made one do some sound thinking. ...I would just let this Atheist be, Truth will come to him. ...it has already. He just doesn't want the answer he got.
by Fence
Friday May 9th, 2003 5:34 AM
There's a lot of armchair politics taking place, and I'm no different.
Whether we believe that the US will be the New World Order and there's underlying theories of dictatorship, we never will know. Personally, I don't believe Bush and sucessors are making that happen, nor do I believe that Bush (or any president) is a puppet.


My Theory.
Iraq? WMD? Who knows? That was one reason to make excuse for war. Why? Because the world populous could care less whether there was a dictator present in another country. They were more concerned about buying a new Hummer or Plasma TV or other local issues. However, if those same people heard threats of WMD, then all of a sudden these same free people now have concerns and give an emotional 'go-ahead' for war.
The political world had concerns about a dictatorship and in order to win the hearts and minds of the world populous, they had to conjour WMD even with a minimal threat, they used it. maybe WMD do exist, maybe they don't.
The Iraqi people only knew a dictatorship (30 years can be a life time) and while threatened, humans don't like change; and to rid a dictatorship is a change to an unknown. They don't understand freedom and are just as afraid of the US "regime" as a threat, as what they lived with.
Think about it. These innocent people, with no education, no real media, zero information of the outside world don't know what to believe. They had no freedom to question what goes on.
You wonder why the ask/tell the US soldiers to leave? because they're scared and really don't know what to believe. A gun is a threat, no matter who is holding the gun.

You people whine about a new world order, whether it's true or not, we don't really know except for any propoganda we hear on the media. We do know we have freedom and if you want to argue that very point, we have more freedom than most realize. We hear all these scare tatics that we ourselves are being threatened with.
Do YOU really believe every pile of crap you hear?
Do YOU actually see things day-to-day that convince YOU that we are being played? or do YOU just hear one radio talk show host that SEEMS to provide all this information.

BELIEVE HALF OF WHAT YOU HEAR AND LITTLE OF WHAT YOU SEE.

I don't discount the fact that there is a whole mess of bias coming from the media. I don't discount the fact that any one political party has its own agenda. But! Keep in mind that a bias from ALL media means just that ALL media.
Do you believe everything that these media 'radicals' have to say? A person that advertises a video every day for the sale of the video of a tragedy that took place. Who's the capitalistic or opportunistic one here?

C'mon people put your thinking caps on and start thinking for yourself. If an item or issue sounds like a loose cannon, maybe that's all it is. Someone that can present an argument and sound good, (like a good lawyer). use some sound judgement on your own. Stop accepting everything you hear.
Stop allowing yourself to get agitated.
Stop allowing these people to enter you level of coomon sense. Yes, there are SOME truths but only some. Most of what your hear from any side is BS.
Wake up and use your God given mind.

by Atheist
Friday May 9th, 2003 10:51 AM
Try thinking with your head and not your ass. It could really do wonders for you.
by Iron FIst
Friday May 9th, 2003 5:13 PM
Brent,

To answer your question, Russia is probably the only country we could not "kick ass" . Russia has never lost a major war on its soil and they are not about to. If you thought dicatators like Saddam were bad, you haven't seen Vladamir Putin pissed off yet. They would slaughter the U.S. If you do not believe me ask any cowboy in Washington. If you look close enough, you just might see them shaking in their boots!!
by Sarai
Sunday May 11th, 2003 3:55 AM
SIr, I am sorry that you have been duped as well into beieving that ALL Americans fall into the same religious category. The fact of the matter is that eventhough we can vote, our votes do not mean much anymore. The same elitist group has been in power in our country for decades, eventhough the faces may change. There agenda has been the same. There will be an uprising in this country also to oust our own evil regime or maybe they have won. We are goven the same tainted information you are and most real Americans are tired of the lies. I do not agree with the military action taken on the country of Iraq, but to say so here now will surely get me and my family labeled as a traitor or terrorist and someday even killed. Does that sound like the Freedom you've heard we enjoy in America or the fear that the Iraqi people have suffered under Saddam? I don't have all the answers to these problems, but I know that in the end the righteous kingdom GOD Almighty intended for the entire human race will prevail.
by Abel Ashes
Monday May 12th, 2003 2:46 PM
I'm feeling a little bit oppressed, so I was wondering if any of you would be so kind as to come over and
shoot me.
I know it's a lot to ask, but goddamn it I deserve to be free!

by Dr. Abeda Mueed
Monday May 12th, 2003 2:59 PM
Dont blame the soilder's?!! What are you talking about? Maybe you have not heard of the British soilders who refused to be part of this murder and were shipped back and are being court-martialed. These soilders when into the army to protect their country, not kill in the intreast of their superiors.
We have to stop putting the blame on the shoulders of those in command and take responsibility for the finger that pull the trigger. I mean would the soilder remain dumb and shoot if the orders were give to shoot his own......maybe this one would.
by Abel Ashes
Monday May 12th, 2003 3:55 PM
I don't believe in God, god, or gods.
I do believe in goddesses, but they don't believe in me.
by Bryan
(bzcrations [at] prodigy.net) Tuesday May 13th, 2003 7:06 AM
Id like to start off by saying a few things...What is an American? America is just a land-mass occupied by individuals of various nations all held together in a melting pot if mixed cultures and ideas..Unfortunatly Americans live in a bubble....Fixated to what they see in the media....the brainwashing instrument that guides all of their actions, way of thought and so on...once you leave America you face the grim realities of life abroad..In general....AMericans were trained to be biggots...overconsumers and so on....
by johndoe
Tuesday May 13th, 2003 2:03 PM
The recent US military actions in Iraq is far from a genocidal war. Yes, people were killed, but now that the country has been occupied, they cannot reasonably continue the "soft genocide" policy of the post-91 embargo era.

By "soft genocide", I mean depriving the Iraqis of necessities such as food and medicine, stunting the growth of its children, and destruction of its development opportunities.

By creating a situation where the targetted population is driven into poverty, its children will be malnurisihed, suffering developmental problems such as lower IQ/brain capability, and unable to afford education. Through this process you destroy the people and its future.

Right or wrong, the recent war in Iraq will at least end this "soft genocide". Looted schools can be rebuilt, and the American government is busy pressing for an end to the economic sanctions, so they can get its multinational corporations in to make a buck.

If the US government was really serious about helping Iraqis, a post-WW2 Japan style occupation and reconstruction is in order. The rebuilding process would take a decade, with the accompanied military occupation ("this base is now mine"), cultural imperialism ("our way is better than yours"), political reforms ("let us write your constitution"), and so on.

In the end, at least the country will remain a country, and hopefully prosper economically under the US sphere. Some day, the country may even break away from the US influence and have a real, independent foreign policy. And yes, if that were to happen in Iraq, Americans may even be driving Iraqi made cars in 2050 AD.

It's said that you can learn a lot about a person by observing his behavior when he wins or loses. Will America be a graceful winner and help Iraq get back on its feet, or turn a petty, selfish looter of Babylon?
by Preacher
Tuesday May 13th, 2003 5:13 PM
It'll be interesting to see what will happen to Babylon, now that there will be stability to that area of the world. And there will be stability - there is too much untapped oil, for there not to be.

I can only imagine the throngs of occultists chomping at the bit to visit the place that bore their false religions.

Amazing that the places mentioned in the Bible are still relevant.
by all religions are false
Tuesday May 13th, 2003 6:33 PM
http://www.holysmoke.org/haught/breaking.html

Breaking the Last Taboo
(Free Inquiry, winter 1996/97)
By James A. Haught

Few Americans know that Thomas Jefferson wrote, in a letter to John Adams:

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."

Or that Albert Einstein wrote in The New York Times in 1930:

"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotism."

Or that Mark Twain wrote in his journal:

"I cannot see how a man of any large degree of humorous perception can ever be religious -- unless he purposely shut the eyes of his mind & keep them shut by force."

Or that Emily Bronte wrote in 1846:

"Vain are the thousand creeds that move men's hearts, unutterably vain, worthless as wither'd weeds."

Or that Sigmund Freud wrote, in a letter to a friend:

"Neither in my private life nor in my writings, have I ever made a secret of being an out-and-out unbeliever."

Or that Thomas Paine wrote in The Age of Reason:

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."

Or that Thomas Edison told The New York Times in 1910:

"I cannot believe in the immortality of the soul.... No, all this talk of an existence for us, as individuals, beyond the grave is wrong. It is born of our tenacity of life -- our desire to go on living -- our dread of coming to an end."

Or that Voltaire wrote, in a letter to Frederick the Great:

"Christianity is the most ridiculous, the most absurd, and bloody religion that has ever infected the world."

Or that Beethoven shunned religion and scorned the clergy.

Or that Abraham Lincoln never joined a church, and once wrote a skeptical treatise, which friends burned in a stove, to save him from wrecking his political career.

Or that the motto of Margaret Sanger's birth-control newsletter was: "No gods, no masters."

Or that Clarence Darrow said, in a 1930 speech in Toronto:

"I don't believe in God because I don't believe in Mother Goose."

Or that President William Howard Taft said, in a letter declining the presidency of Yale University:

"I do not believe in the divinity of Christ, and there are many other of the postulates of the orthodox creed to which I cannot subscribe."

Or that Luther Burbank told a newspaper interviewer in 1926:

"As a scientist, I cannot help feeling that all religions are on a tottering foundation.... I am an infidel today. I do not believe what has been served to me to believe. I am a doubter, a questioner, a skeptic. When it can be proved to me that there is immortality, that there is resurrection beyond the gates of death, then I will believe. Until then, no."

Or that Bertrand Russell wrote in 1930:

"My own view of religion is that of Lucretius. I regard it as a disease born of fear and as a source of untold misery to the human race."

Or that George Bernard Shaw wrote, in the preface to one of his plays:

"At present there is not a single credible established religion in the world."

Or that Leo Tolstoy wrote, in response to his excommunication by the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church:

"To regard Christ as God, and to pray to him, are to my mind the greatest possible sacrilege."

Or that Charles Darwin said:

"The mystery of the beginning of all things is insoluble by us, and I for one must be content to remain an agnostic."

Or that Kurt Vonnegut said:

"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying and absolutely vile."

Or that Gloria Steinem said:

"By the year 2000, we will, I hope, raise our children to believe in human potential, not God."

Many, perhaps most, of the world's outstanding thinkers, scientists, writers, reformers -- people who changed Western life -- have been religious skeptics. But this fact is little known in America. Why?

Because our nation has one last taboo, one unmentionable topic: religious doubt.

In the daily tumult, it's permissible to challenge any idea, save one. Supernatural religion -- invisible gods and devils, heavens and hells -- is off limits. It's acceptable to write that Elvis is alive on a UFO, but not that God is a figment of the imagination. A few "freethought" journals do so, but mainstream media mostly stay mum.

There's an unspoken consensus that the subject is too touchy, that it's "impolite" to question anyone's religion. In a nation of 100 million church members, with an upsurge of fundamentalism, too many feelings would be hurt.

Why are some believers angered by disbelief? Bertrand Russell offered this explanation:

"There is something feeble and a little contemptible about a man who cannot face the perils of life without the help of comfortable myths. Almost inevitably, some part of him is aware that they are myths, and that he believes them only because they are comforting. But he dares not face this thought! Moreover, since he is aware, however dimly, that his opinions are not rational, he becomes furious when they are disputed."

Maybe that's the reason why, for many centuries, you could be killed for doubting dogmas. Believers killing non-believers was a pattern long before the Ayatollah Khomeini ordered a holy hit on Salman Rushdie. For example:

In the fifth century B.C., the Greek teacher Protagoras wrote:

"As to the gods, I have no way of knowing either that they exist or do not exist, or what they are like."

Protagoras was charged with impiety, as were other Greek thinkers. Unlike Socrates and Anaxagoras, who were sentenced to death, Protagoras merely was banished from Athens, and his books were burned. As he sailed into exile, he drowned.

In the year 415, the woman scientist Hypatia, head of the legendary Alexandria library, was beaten to death by Christian monks who considered her a pagan. The leader of the monks, Cyril, was canonized a saint.

In the 11th century, Omar Khayyam wrote his exquisite Persian verses on the futility of trying to discern any purpose of life. He scoffed at believers yearning for heaven -- "Fools, your reward is neither here nor there" -- and belittled divine prophecies:

"The revelations of the devout and learn'd / Who rose before us and as prophets burn'd / Are all but stories, which, awoke from sleep / They told their comrades, and to sleep return'd."

How did Omar escape execution in the Muslim world, which is known for beheading "blasphemers"? Actually, Omar is a mystery, and the verses attributed to him didn't begin surfacing until two centuries after his death.

In the 1500s, Michel de Montaigne, who created the essay as a literary form, wrote comments such as:

"Man is certainly stark mad: he cannot make a worm, yet he will make gods by the dozen."

Although Montaigne lived at a time when "heretics" were burned, he eluded prosecution. Other thinkers weren't so lucky. In 1553, the physician Michael Servetus, who discovered the pulmonary circulation of blood, was burned alive in John Calvin's Geneva for doubting the Trinity. (In my Unitarian church, the youth group holds a yearly "Michael Servetus wiener roast" in his memory.)

In 1600, the philosopher Giordano Bruno was burned for teaching that the earth circles the sun, and that the universe is infinite. He was among thousands of Inquisition victims.

Later in the 1600s, the Englishman Thomas Hobbes, generally deemed the first major thinker in what is now called the Age of Reason, wrote:

"Opinion of ghosts, ignorance of second causes, devotion to what men fear, and taking of things casual for prognostics, consisteth the natural seeds of religion."

A bishop accused Hobbes of atheism. Parliament ordered an investigation. Hobbes hastily burned his manuscripts, and escaped with only a ban against future writings.

Baruch Spinoza, a Jew in Amsterdam, doubted theological dogmas and wrote lines such as:

"Popular religion may be summed up as a respect for ecclesiastics."

He was excommunicated by the Dutch synagogue, and lived as a semi-outcast.

Gradually, the iron fist of religion lost its grip in the West, and disbelief became a bit safer. But there were relapses. For example, a French teen-ager was beheaded and burned in 1766 for marring a crucifix, singing irreverent songs and wearing his hat while a church procession passed. Voltaire tried to save him, but the clergy demanded death, and the French parliament decreed it.

And Denis Diderot, creator of the first encyclopedia, was jailed for skepticism, and his writings burned. And English publishers who printed Thomas Paine's The Age of Reason were jailed for blasphemy.

Despite the risks, thinkers kept on questioning, and the right to doubt gradually was established -- in the West, but not in the Muslim world, where "blasphemers" still face death today.

Although the right was won, it remains partly muzzled in America. What schoolchild is taught that Thomas Jefferson wrote many sneers at "priestcraft" -- that he was denounced as a "howling atheist" -- and that his famous vow of "eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man," which is engraved in his memorial in Washington, was written of the clergy?

What student hears scientific explanations of religion, such as this one: Sigmund Freud said the widespread belief in a father-god arises from psychology. Each tiny child is awed by his or her father as a seemingly all-powerful protector and punisher. As maturity comes, the real father grows less awesome. But the infantile image remains hidden in the subconscious, and becomes attached to an omnipotent, magical father in an invisible heaven. Unknowingly, Freud said, believers worship the long-forgotten toddler impression of the biological father, "clothed in the grandeur in which he once appeared to the small child."

Although open agnosticism is a no-no in America -- and although fundamentalism is booming -- supernatural religion is fading among educated people. America's mainline Protestant churches, formerly the domain of the elite, have lost millions of members since the 1960s. Intelligent people don't take miracles seriously, and realize there's no evidence of a spirit realm.

The old church "thou shalt nots" against sex, liquor, gambling, birth control, dancing, Sunday shopping, etc., have subsided in our lifetime. Fundamentalism may be rising, but so is secularism. Educated Americans are becoming like Europeans, who have mostly abandoned religion. In England, for example, only a tiny fringe attends church today.

Soon it may be acceptable to challenge the supernatural, as so many great figures have done. The tacit code of silence -- the last taboo -- may be near an end. I certainly hope so.

(Sources of quotations, in sequence as they appear)

Thomas Jefferson - letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823.

Albert Einstein - New York Times commentary, Nov. 9, 1930.

Mark Twain - sMark Twain's Notebooks and Journals, edited by Frederick Anderson, 1979, notebook 27, August 1887-July 1888.

Emily Bronte - No Coward Soul, January 1846.

Sigmund Freud - letter to Charles Singer.

Thomas Paine - The Age of Reason, 1794.

Thomas Edison - interview in The New York Times, Oct. 2, 1910, front of Magazine Section, by Edward Marshall.

Voltaire - letter to Frederick the Great, quoted in the Encyclopedia of Unbelief, Prometheus Books, 1985, p. 715.

Margaret Sanger - masthead of her newsletter, The Woman Rebel, quoted in the 1994 Women of Freethought Calendar, by Carole Gray, Columbus, Ohio.

Clarence Darrow - speech at Toronto, 1930, cited in The Great Quotations. by George Seldes, Lyle Stuart publisher, 1960, p. 190.

William Howard Taft - The Life and Times of William Howard Taft, by Harry F. Pringle, Farrar & Rinehart Inc., New York, 1939, p. 373.

Luther Burbank - San Francisco Bulletin, Jan. 22, 1926, page 1, by Edgar Waite, headline: "I'm an Infidel, Declares Burbank, Casting Doubt on Soul Immortality Theory."

Bertrand Russell - opening lines of "Has Religion Made Useful Contributions to Civilization," essay, 1930.

George Bernard Shaw - Major Barbara, preface, final paragraph.

Leo Tolstoy - letter April 4, 1901, to the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church, in response to his excommunication, cited in Tolstoy, by Henri Troyat, Doubleday, 1967, p. 591 - and in The Life of Lyof N. Tolstoi, by Nathan Haskell Dole, Scribner's, 1923, p. 371-2

Charles Darwin - Life and Letters, cited in Peter's Quotations, by Laurance J. Peter, Wm. Morrow & Co., 1977, p. 45.

Kurt Vonnegut - Peter's Quotations, p. 191

Gloria Steinem - Peter's Quotations, p. 103.

Russell again - Human Society in Ethics and Politics, 1954.

Protagoras - On the Gods

Omar Khayyam - The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam, translated by Edward FitzGerald, fifth translation, 1889, verse 65, reprinted by Dover Thrift Editions, 1990, p. 41.

Michel de Montaigne - Apology to Raimond Sebond, 1580, Essays book 2, chapter 12.

Thomas Hobbes - quoted by Rufus K. Noyes in Views of Religion, L.K. Washburn publisher, Boston, 1906, p. 30.

Baruch Spinoza - quoted by Eugene Brussell in The Dictionary of Quotable Definitions, Prentice-Hall, 1970, p. 490.

Jefferson again - vow against tyranny, letter to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800.

Freud again - father-God explanation from The Future of an IIllusion, in The Freud Reader, edited by Peter Gay, W.W. Norton, 1989, p. 694-6 -- quote is from New Introductory Lectures on Psychoanalysis, cited by Seldes in The Great Quotations, p. 261.

by Preacher
Wednesday May 14th, 2003 10:15 AM
Here's a quote from Simon Barjona:

"1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."


Here's a quote from King Solomon:

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction"

Here's something from The Apostle Paul:

"1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."
----------------------------

I don't care how many quotes you throw at me from reprobates, sir. They're all in hell now realizing that their 15 minutes of fame on Earth are long past. They have all chosen to worship their thoughts and postulations - and have come to the realization that God does exist - even if they refused to truthfully acknowledge Him.

There is still hope for you, though. As long as their is life in your body, you have the choice to accept Christ's payment for your sins or pay for them yourself - for all eternity in hell - with the rest of the "brilliant" minds you have quoted.
by Jerry Falwell
Wednesday May 14th, 2003 10:36 AM
Here, here! Let's go blow up an abortion clinic.
by Preacher
Wednesday May 14th, 2003 1:50 PM
Never did I even imply such a thing. The scripture verses that I quoted say nothing about violence against non-believers - for that matter, no Bible verse calls for such a thing. That is a construct of the Roman Catholic church - just look into the inquisition and see how many people were put to death because they held to the Bible and NOT to the Pope.
Vengence is God's and God's alone. We are all given a choice and there is no scripture to support the forcing of this choice upon another who refuses. All I am to do is simply state what the Bible says. It's quite funny that you would immediately jump to such an uneducated accusation, but that's to be expected.

You have a choice, Jerry. I can only state what it is and hope for the best. I am no better than the next person - for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. What you do with this choice is between you and God.
by Jerry Falwell
Wednesday May 14th, 2003 2:15 PM
Educate yourself.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty.html
by yeah, right
Wednesday May 14th, 2003 2:38 PM
http://thetruth.hypermart.net/bible/atrocities.htm

Bible Atrocities

Compiled by Donald Morgan

(Note: In the Bible, words having to do with killing significantly outnumber words having to do with love.)

GE 3:1-7, 22-24 God allows Adam and Eve to be deceived by the Serpent (the craftiest of all of God's wild creatures). They eat of the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil," thereby incurring death for themselves and all of mankind for ever after. God prevents them from regaining eternal life, by placing a guard around the "Tree of Eternal Life." (Note: God could have done the same for the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" in the first place and would thereby have prevented the Fall of man, the necessity for Salvation, the Crucifixion of Jesus, etc.)

GE 4:2-8 God's arbitrary preference of Abel's offering to that of Cain's provokes Cain to commit the first biblically recorded murder and kill his brother Abel.

GE 34:13-29 The Israelites kill Hamor, his son, and all the men of their village, taking as plunder their wealth, cattle, wives and children.

GE 6:11-17, 7:11-24 God is unhappy with the wickedness of man and decides to do something about it. He kills every living thing on the face of the earth other than Noah's family and thereby makes himself the greatest mass murderer in history.

GE 19:26 God personally sees to it that Lot's wife is turned to a pillar of salt (for having looked behind her while fleeing the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah).

GE 38:9 "... whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. What he did was wicked ..., so the Lord put him to death."

EX 2:12 Moses murders an Egyptian.

EX 7:1, 14, 9:14-16, 10:1-2, 11:7 The purpose of the devastation that God brings to the Egyptians is as follows:
to show that he is Lord;
to show that there is none like him in all the earth;
to show his great power;
to cause his name to be declared throughout the earth;
to give the Israelites something to talk about with their children;
to show that he makes a distinction between Israel and Egypt.

EX 9:22-25 A plague of hail from the Lord strikes down everything in the fields of Egypt both man and beast except in Goshen where the Israelites reside.

EX 12:29 The Lord kills all the first-born in the land of Egypt.

EX 17:13 With the Lord's approval, Joshua mows down Amalek and his people.

EX 21:20-21 With the Lord's approval, a slave may be beaten to death with no punishment for the perpetrator as long as the slave doesn't die too quickly.

EX 32:27 "Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbor.

EX 32:27-29 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites slay 3000 men.

LE 26:7-8 The Lord promises the Israelites that, if they are obedient, their enemies will "fall before your sword."

LE 26:22 "I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children."

LE 26:29, DT 28:53, JE 19:9, EZ 5:8-10 As a punishment, the Lord will cause people to eat the flesh of their own sons and daughters and fathers and friends.

LE 27:29 Human sacrifice is condoned. (Note: An example is given in JG 11:30-39)

NU 11:33 The Lord smites the people with a great plague.

NU 12:1-10 God makes Miriam a leper for seven days because she and Aaron had spoken against Moses.

NU 15:32-36 A Sabbath breaker (who had gathered sticks for a fire) is stoned to death at the Lord's command.

NU 16:27-33 The Lord causes the earth to open and swallow up the men and their households (including wives and children) because the men had been rebellious.

NU 16:35 A fire from the Lord consumes 250 men.

NU 16:49 A plague from the Lord kills 14,700 people.

NU 21:3 The Israelites utterly destroy the Canaanites.

NU 21:6 Fiery serpents, sent by the Lord, kill many Israelites.

NU 21:35 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites slay Og "... and his sons and all his people, until there was not one survivor left ...."

NU 25:4 (KJV) "And the Lord said unto Moses, take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the Lord against the sun ...."

NU 25:8 "He went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly."

NU 25:9 24,000 people die in a plague from the Lord.

NU 31:9 The Israelites capture Midianite women and children.

NU 31:17-18 Moses, following the Lord's command, orders the Israelites to kill all the Midianite male children and "... every woman who has known man ...." (Note: How would it be determined which women had known men? One can only speculate.)

NU 31:31-40 32,000 virgins are taken by the Israelites as booty. Thirty-two are set aside (to be sacrificed?) as a tribute for the Lord.

DT 2:33-34 The Israelites utterly destroy the men, women, and children of Sihon.

DT 3:6 The Israelites utterly destroy the men, women, and children of Og.

DT 7:2 The Lord commands the Israelites to "utterly destroy" and shown "no mercy" to those whom he gives them for defeat.

DT 20:13-14 "When the Lord delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the males .... As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves."

DT 20:16 "In the cities of the nations the Lord is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes."

DT 21:10-13 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites are allowed to take "beautiful women" from the enemy camp to be their captive wives. If, after sexual relations, the husband has "no delight" in his wife, he can simply let her go.

DT 28:53 "You will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the Lord your God has given you."

JS 1:1-9, 18 Joshua receives the Lord's blessing for all the bloody endeavors to follow.

JS 6:21-27 With the Lord's approval, Joshua destroys the city of Jericho men, women, and children with the edge of the sword.

JS 7:19-26 Achan, his children and his cattle are stoned to death because Achan had taken a taboo thing.

JS 8:22-25 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly smites the people of Ai, killing 12,000 men and women, so that there were none who escaped.

JS 10:10-27 With the help of the Lord, Joshua utterly destroys the Gibeonites.

JS 10:28 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the people of Makkedah.

JS 10:30 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Libnahites.

JS 10:32-33 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the people of Lachish.

JS 10:34-35 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Eglonites.

JS 10:36-37 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Hebronites.

JS 10:38-39 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Debirites.

JS 10:40 (A summary statement.) "So Joshua defeated the whole land ...; he left none remaining, but destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord God of Israel commanded."

JS 11:6 The Lord orders horses to be hamstrung. (Exceedingly cruel.)

JS 11:8-15 "And the lord gave them into the hand of Israel, ...utterly destroying them; there was none left that breathed ...."

JS 11:20 "For it was the Lord's doing to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, in order that they should be utterly destroyed, and should receive no mercy but be exterminated, as the Lord commanded Moses."

JS 11:21-23 Joshua utterly destroys the Anakim.

JG 1:4 With the Lord's support, Judah defeats 10,000 Canaanites at Bezek.

JG 1:6 With the Lord's approval, Judah pursues Adoni-bezek, catches him, and cuts off his thumbs and big toes.

JG 1:8 With the Lord's approval, Judah smites Jerusalem.

JG 1:17 With the Lord's approval, Judah and Simeon utterly destroy the Canaanites who inhabited Zephath.

JG 3:29 The Israelites kill about 10,000 Moabites.

JG 3:31 (A restatement.) Shamgar killed 600 Philistines with an oxgoad.

JG 4:21 Jael takes a tent stake and hammers it through the head of Sisera, fastening it to the ground.

JG 7:19-25 The Gideons defeat the Midianites, slay their princes, cut off their heads, and bring the heads back to Gideon.

JG 8:15-21 The Gideons slaughter the men of Penuel.

JG 9:5 Abimalech murders his brothers.

JG 9:45 Abimalech and his men kill all the people in the city.

JG 9:53-54 "A woman dropped a stone on his head and cracked his skull. Hurriedly he called to his armor-bearer, 'Draw your sword and kill me, so that they can't say a woman killed me.' So his servant ran him through, and he died."

JG 11:29-39 Jepthah sacrifices his beloved daughter, his only child, according to a vow he has made with the Lord.

JG 14:19 The Spirit of the Lord comes upon a man and causes him to slay thirty men.

JG 15:15 Samson slays 1000 men with the jawbone of an ass.

JG 16:21 The Philistines gouge out Samson's eyes.

JG 16:27-30 Samson, with the help of the Lord, pulls down the pillars of the Philistine house and causes his own death and that of 3000 other men and women.

JG 18:27 The Danites slay the quiet and unsuspecting people of Laish.

JG 19:22-29 A group of sexual depraved men beat on the door of an old man's house demanding that he turn over to them a male house guest. Instead, the old man offers his virgin daughter and his guest's concubine (or wife): "Behold, here are my virgin daughter and his concubine; let me bring them out now. Ravish them and do with them what seems good to you; but against this man do not do so vile a thing." The man's concubine is ravished and dies. The man then cuts her body into twelve pieces and sends one piece to each of the twelve tribes of Israel.

JG 20:43-48 The Israelites smite 25,000+ "men of valor" from amongst the Benjamites, "men and beasts and all that they found," and set their towns on fire.

JG 21:10-12 "... Go and smite the inhabitants of Jabesh-gilead with the edge of the sword and; also the women and little ones.... every male and every woman that has lain with a male you shall utterly destroy." They do so and find four hundred young virgins whom they bring back for their own use.

1SA 4:10 The Philistines slay 30,000 Israelite foot soldiers.

1SA 5:6-9 The Lord afflicts the Philistines with tumors in their "secret parts," presumably for having stolen the Ark.

1SA 6:19 God kills seventy men (or so) for looking into the Ark (at him?). (Note: The early Israelites apparently thought the Ark to be God's abode.)

1SA 7:7-11 Samuel and his men smite the Philistines.

1SA 11:11 With the Lord's blessing, Saul and his men cut down the Ammonites.

1SA 14:31 Jonathan and his men strike down the Philistines.

1SA 14:48 Saul smites the Amalekites.

1SA 15:3, 7-8 "This is what the Lord says: Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass ....' And Saul ... utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."

1SA 15:33 "Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the Lord ...."

1SA 18:7 The women sing as they make merry: "Saul has slain his thousands and David his ten thousands."

1SA 18:27 David murders 200 Philistines, then cuts off their foreskins.

1SA 30:17 David smites the Amalekites.

2SA 2:23 Abner kills Asahel.

2SA 3:30 Joab and Abishai kill Abner.

2SA 4:7-8 Rechan and Baanah kill Ish-bosheth, behead him, and take his head to David.

2SA 4:12 David has Rechan and Baanah killed, their hands and feet cut off, and their bodies hanged by the pool at Hebron.

2SA 5:25 "And David did as the Lord commanded him, and smote the Philistines ...."

2SA 6:2-23 Because she rebuked him for having exposed himself, Michal (David's wife) was barren throughout her life.

2SA 8:1-18 (A listing of some of David's murderous conquests.)

2SA 8:4 David hamstrung all but a few of the horses.

2SA 8:5 David slew 22,000 Syrians.

2SA 8:6, 14 "The Lord gave victory to David wherever he went."

2SA 8:13 David slew 18,000 Edomites in the valley of salt and made the rest slaves.

2SA 10:18 David slew 47,000+ Syrians.

2SA 11:14-27 David has Uriah killed so that he can marry Uriah's wife, Bathsheba.

2SA 12:1, 19 The Lord strikes David's child dead for the sin that David has committed.

2SA 13:1-15 Amnon loves his sister Tamar, rapes her, then hates her.

2SA 13:28-29 Absalom has Amnon murdered.

2SA 18:6 -7 20,000 men are slaughtered at the battle in the forest of Ephraim.

2SA 18:15 Joab's men murder Absalom.

2SA 20:10-12 Joab's men murder Amasa and leave him "... wallowing in his own blood in the highway. And anyone who came by, seeing him, stopped."

2SA 24:15 The Lord sends a pestilence on Israel that kills 70,000 men.

1KI 2:24-25 Solomon has Adonijah murdered.

1KI 2:29-34 Solomon has Joab murdered.

1KI 2:46 Solomon has Shime-i murdered.

1KI 13:15-24 A man is killed by a lion for eating bread and drinking water in a place where the Lord had previously told him not to. This is in spite of the fact that the man had subsequently been lied to by a prophet who told the man that an angel of the Lord said that it would be alright to eat and drink there.

1KI 20:29-30 The Israelites smite 100,000 Syrian soldiers in one day. A wall falls on 27,000 remaining Syrians.

2KI 1:10-12 Fire from heaven comes down and consumes fifty men.

2KI 2:23-24 Forty-two children are mauled and killed, presumably according to the will of God, for having jeered at a man of God.

2KI 5:27 Elisha curses Gehazi and his descendants forever with leprosy.

2KI 6:18-19 The Lord answers Elisha's prayer and strikes the Syrians with blindness. Elisha tricks the blind Syrians and leads them to Samaria.

2KI 6:29 "So we cooked my son and ate him. The next day I said to her, 'Give up your son so we may eat him,' but she had hidden him."

2KI 9:24 Jehu tricks and murders Joram.

2KI 9:27 Ahaziah has Jehu killed.

2KI 9:30-37 Jehu has Jezebel killed. Her body is trampled by horses. Dogs eat her flesh so that only her skull, feet, and the palms of her hands remain.

2KI 10:7 Jehu has Ahab's seventy sons beheaded, then sends the heads to their father.

2KI 10:14 Jehu has forty-two of Ahab's kin killed.

2KI 10:17 "And when he came to Samaria, he slew all that remained to Ahab in Samaria, till he had wiped them out, according to the word of the Lord ...."

2KI 10:19-27 Jehu uses trickery to massacre the Baal worshippers.

2KI 11:1 Athaliah destroys all the royal family.

2KI 14:5, 7 Amaziah kills his servants and then 10,000 Edomites.

2KI 15:3-5 Even though he did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, the Lord smites Azariah with leprosy for not having removed the "high places."

2KI 15:16 Menahem ripped open all the women who were pregnant.

2KI 19:35 An angel of the Lord kills 185,000 men.

1CH 20:3 (KJV) "And he brought out the people that were in it, and cut them with saws, and with harrows of iron, and with axes."

2CH 13:17 500,000 Israelites are slaughtered.

2CH 21:4 Jehoram slays all his brothers.

PS 137:9 Happy will be the man who dashes your little ones against the stones.

PS 144:1 God is praised as the one who trains hands for war and fingers for battle.

IS 13:15 "Everyone who is captured will be thrust through; all who are caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their ... wives will be ravished."

IS 13:18 "Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children."

IS 14:21-22 "Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers."

IS 49:26 The Lord will cause the oppressors of the Israelite's to eat their own flesh and to become drunk on their own blood as with wine.

JE 16:4 "They shall die grievous deaths; they shall not be lamented; neither shall they be buried; but they shall be as dung upon the face of the earth: and they shall be consumed by the sword, and by famine; and their carcasses shall be meat for the fowls of heaven, and for the beasts of the earth."

LA 4:9-10 "Those slain by the sword are better off than those who die of famine; racked with hunger, they waste away for lack of food. ... pitiful women have cooked their own children, who became their food ..."

EZ 6:12-13 The Lord says: "... they will fall by the sword, famine and plague. He that is far away will die of the plague, and he that is near will fall by the sword, and he that survives and is spared will die of famine. So will I spend my wrath upon them. And they will know I am the Lord, when the people lie slain among their idols around their altars, on every high hill and on all the mountaintops, under every spreading tree and every leafy oak ...."

EZ 9:4-6 The Lord commands: "... slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women ...."

EZ 20:26 In order that he might horrify them, the Lord allowed the Israelites to defile themselves through, amongst other things, the sacrifice of their first-born children.

EZ 21:3-4 The Lord says that he will cut off both the righteous and the wicked that his sword shall go against all flesh.

EZ 23:25, 47 God is going to slay the sons and daughters of those who were whores.

EZ 23:34 "You shall ... pluck out your hair, and tear your breasts."

HO 13:16 "They shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up."

MI 3:2-3 "... who pluck off their skin ..., and their flesh from off their bones; Who also eat the flesh of my people, and flay their skin from off them; and they break their bones, and chop them in pieces, as for the pot, and as flesh within the caldron."

MT 3:12, 8:12, 10:21, 13:30, 42, 22:13, 24:51, 25:30, LK 13:28, JN 5:24 Some will spend eternity burning in Hell. There will be weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth.

MT 10:21 "... the brother shall deliver up his brother to death, and the father his child, ... children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death."

MT 10:35-36 "For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law a man's enemies will be the members of his own family."

MT 11:21-24 Jesus curses €the inhabitants of› three cities who were not sufficiently impressed with his great works.

AC 13:11 Paul purposefully blinds a man (though not permanently).

by Preacher
Wednesday May 14th, 2003 2:58 PM
The interesting thing about the secular commentary is that it attempts to mock God. Well, best of luck with your choices.

Galatians 6:7 - Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
by Preacher
Wednesday May 14th, 2003 3:15 PM
For those theologians and literary buffs out there, try keeping everything in its proper context. It seems that these websites that you individuals are providing, aren't that keen on keeping context.

The other thing would be the fact that without the discernment of God, the scriptures are a stumbling block to the natural man.

Betwixt these two issues belies your willfull ignorance.
by anti-nut
Thursday May 15th, 2003 11:20 AM
Wow. A religious nut calling someone ELSE ignorant.
by Deborah
Thursday May 15th, 2003 4:25 PM
I am of natives descent we were here before the europeans invaded this country (USA) my people have been here for over 14,000 years...we are all but invisible now. I see the trespasses that your people have had to endure for over 50 years and your only sin is being born on the "land of oil". When Bush invaded your country he did this against MUCH resistance. Almost daily here in the US we were protesting, through the telephones, faxes, emails, letters, outside buildings, etc. I have a 11 years old grandson, he is the most beautiful thing in my life, I would rip the throat out of ANYONE that would touch my precious child. When Bush attacked your country I become physically sick, I could not sleep, I was so sick from all this nonsense. I know how I would feel if these horrible things happened to my loved ones...I know this could make ANYONE crazy.

I am not a christian...I do not believe in war, I do not believe in keeping people ignorant, I find out my truth. I find out for MYSELF, I do not listen to an appointed leader would should not be there in the first place.

I must give credit to the Pope for trying, I give credit to all the just christians who truly tried to reason with this apparent moron. He will pay, no one ever escapes when they bring this much pain to people! I cry for your people, I protest daily. I will not stop until Bush is out. I wish justice to be turned onto him. I want God to do the right thing and I do believe this will happen, I only hope I live long enough to celebrate this justice.

Many people here in this poor country (yes we are poor, we are poor because so many are ignorant!) are mad and they will not just sit back and let these rich white men destroy the people of this planet. My natives ancestors told the white man that when the last fresh air is breathed, the last grain is eaten, when the last fresh water is drank only then will they realize what they have done. Unfortunately, this is how they are...their religion tells them that they own this planet...come on we don't live long enough to own anything (truly). How can these people expect to return to the earth when they disrespect her everyday?!

My heart, my blessings, my soul cries out for all of you! Please know there are many of us who are trying to do the right thing for you and yours.

Bush is also beating people here, Bush is killing journalist, Bush is a thief and a liar! We know this and soon more will know. Have faith, when you should have none...but try.
by Justice
Saturday May 24th, 2003 7:24 AM
Blesssedly there is a higher power, and the atrocities of the current US administration and its terrorist attack on the soverign nation of Iraq and its people, the rape of its resources, the lies told will be dealt with if not here than there. Of that we can be assured. A war criminal by any other name, indeed..
by Soldier's wife
Monday May 26th, 2003 9:08 PM
How dare you. Were you there to see what happened or are you just going on what THIS media is showing. Are these pictures the actual truth or is it part of a story. My husband was there and he was involved in that incident. War isn't pretty and if you hate this country so much or ashamed to call yourself an american then why don't you move. We do live in the land of the free...so you are free to leave. My father and husband asured it.
by Soldier's wife
Monday May 26th, 2003 9:13 PM
How dare you. Were you there to see what happened or are you just going on what THIS media is showing. Are these pictures the actual truth or is it part of a story. My husband was there and he was involved in that incident. War isn't pretty and if you hate this country so much or ashamed to call yourself an american then why don't you move. We do live in the land of the free...so you are free to leave. My father and husband asured it.
by Soldier's wife
Monday May 26th, 2003 9:17 PM
How dare you. Were you there to see what happened or are you just going on what THIS media is showing. Are these pictures the actual truth or is it part of a story? My husband was there and he was involved in that incident. War isn't pretty and if you hate this country so much or ashamed to call yourself an american then why don't you move. We do live in the land of the free...so you are free to leave. My father and husband asured it.
I am only ashamed to be called an American because people like you live here.

YOU move.
by Not Born Here
Tuesday May 27th, 2003 11:51 AM
Many soldiers and civilians as a result this terrorist attack on a soverign nation by the US and UK will not be going home at all. So we can say how dare you?

Not living in the US nor born in the US and SO GRATEFUL!!!!
by Demand the Impossible!
Tuesday May 27th, 2003 6:58 PM
Tao Te Ching, Ch 31 "Weapons are tools of evil, shunned and avoided by everything in nature Because people of Tao follow nature, they want nothing to do with weapons Unevolved people are eager to act out of strength, but a person of Tao values peace and quiet He knows that every being is born of the womb of Tao This means that his enemies are his enemies second, his own brothers and sisters first Thus he resorts to weapons only in the direst necessity, and then uses them with the utmost restraint He takes no pleasure in victory, because to rejoice in victory is to delight in killing Whoever delights in killing will not find success in this world Observe victories as you observe a death in the family: with sorrow and mourning Every victory is a funeral for kin" --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The leaders of the "free world" responsible for this carnage: Bush, Blair, Howard etc and their administrations allow this to happen because they are disconnected from their humanity. In it's place is the need for power and greed and in their desire to serve their own masters. They are puppets for those who lust for power in a far greater realm: the multi-national corporations and the leeches which cling to them. We, as human beings, allow this to happen because we do not believe in the sanctity of our own humanity. In its place, we allow the state and corporate world to fill our minds with commodities, wants, desire, longing, discontent, greed, jealousy, fear, loathing, hatred. Whatever lies and misinformation we are fed via manufactured news, we are not disconnected from the people of Iraq. They share with us the most sacred aspect of our true natures: our humanity. It is time for each and every one of us to recognise our true natures and to begin the process of reclaiming our freedom. Freedom will never be voluntarily handed to us by the state. If it were, then it is not true freedom. There are viable alternatives to "representative democracy". And remember, it was our support of "representative democracy" which saw the invasion of Iraq amongst other atrocities. "Anarchism is the philosophy of freedom. We believe in a society where the freedom of each person is limited only by the the freedom of everyone. We are born free, yet everywhere we are enslaved. This is because the idea of "freedom" in a capitalist society is confused with "Social Darwinism"; the idea that a few people should be allowed to dominate, terrorize and exploit everyone else. While this may be the fantasy of the rich, it is NOT TRUE FREEDOM. Freedom cannot be achieved by taking over the government or becoming a new ruling elite because, so long as one group of people try to place themselves above everyone else, then everyone else will still not be free. True freedom is also not defined by "civil rights". "Rights" are a perversion of true freedom invented to trick us into believing that we owe our freedom to governments. In truth, we are born free and the purpose of governments is to take that freedom away in order to protect the money, property and privileges of the rich: the Ruling Class. True freedom is not measured by the power or authority the rich allow us to have, but by the ability to govern ourselves. If we allow ourselves to believe that THEY give us freedom, then we are giving up our freedom any time they choose to take it away or anytime they threaten to take it if we don't do what they say. True freedom begins when we take responsibility for our own actions. This means that we are not willing to let other people tell us what to thtink or how to live. We question the motives and agenda of politicians, bosses and capitalist news media. We question the injustice we see in the world around us and reject the excuses for it given by the people with wealth and social privilege. Personal freedom is a lifelong pursuit of understanding yourself and the world around you through self-education, personal experiences and introspection." search for an anarchist group in your area.
by Demand the Impossible!
Tuesday May 27th, 2003 7:04 PM
Tao Te Ching, Ch 31 "Weapons are tools of evil, shunned and avoided by everything in nature Because people of Tao follow nature, they want nothing to do with weapons Unevolved people are eager to act out of strength, but a person of Tao values peace and quiet He knows that every being is born of the womb of Tao This means that his enemies are his enemies second, his own brothers and sisters first Thus he resorts to weapons only in the direst necessity, and then uses them with the utmost restraint He takes no pleasure in victory, because to rejoice in victory is to delight in killing Whoever delights in killing will not find success in this world Observe victories as you observe a death in the family: with sorrow and mourning Every victory is a funeral for kin" --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The leaders of the "free world" responsible for this carnage: Bush, Blair, Howard etc and their administrations allow this to happen because they are disconnected from their humanity. In it's place is the need for power and greed and in their desire to serve their own masters. They are puppets for those who lust for power in a far greater realm: the multi-national corporations and the leeches which cling to them. We, as human beings, allow this to happen because we do not believe in the sanctity of our own humanity. In its place, we allow the state and corporate world to fill our minds with commodities, wants, desire, longing, discontent, greed, jealousy, fear, loathing, hatred. Whatever lies and misinformation we are fed via manufactured news, we are not disconnected from the people of Iraq. They share with us the most sacred aspect of our true natures: our humanity. It is time for each and every one of us to recognise our true natures and to begin the process of reclaiming our freedom. Freedom will never be voluntarily handed to us by the state. If it were, then it is not true freedom. There are viable alternatives to "representative democracy". And remember, it was our support of "representative democracy" which saw the invasion of Iraq amongst other atrocities. "Anarchism is the philosophy of freedom. We believe in a society where the freedom of each person is limited only by the the freedom of everyone. We are born free, yet everywhere we are enslaved. This is because the idea of "freedom" in a capitalist society is confused with "Social Darwinism"; the idea that a few people should be allowed to dominate, terrorize and exploit everyone else. While this may be the fantasy of the rich, it is NOT TRUE FREEDOM. Freedom cannot be achieved by taking over the government or becoming a new ruling elite because, so long as one group of people try to place themselves above everyone else, then everyone else will still not be free. True freedom is also not defined by "civil rights". "Rights" are a perversion of true freedom invented to trick us into believing that we owe our freedom to governments. In truth, we are born free and the purpose of governments is to take that freedom away in order to protect the money, property and privileges of the rich: the Ruling Class. True freedom is not measured by the power or authority the rich allow us to have, but by the ability to govern ourselves. If we allow ourselves to believe that THEY give us freedom, then we are giving up our freedom any time they choose to take it away or anytime they threaten to take it if we don't do what they say. True freedom begins when we take responsibility for our own actions. This means that we are not willing to let other people tell us what to thtink or how to live. We question the motives and agenda of politicians, bosses and capitalist news media. We question the injustice we see in the world around us and reject the excuses for it given by the people with wealth and social privilege. Personal freedom is a lifelong pursuit of understanding yourself and the world around you through self-education, personal experiences and introspection." search for an anarchist group in your area.
by jerry k
Tuesday May 27th, 2003 8:10 PM
whoever compares this to nazi germany is a complete idiot. listen, saddam was/is a very evil man. almost all iraqi people are very happy that he is gone. if anyone should be compared to hitler it should be him. sitting around while he continued to gain wealth and power? not so smart. WMD or no WMD. it is unfortunate that the american military is having trouble restoring peace in iraq, but they are trying. american soldiers die trying. hmm...how many of you blame all the iraqi criminals for the current state of iraq. how would you react if you were shot at from a crowd of people? i bet you dont know. you could say you do, but you most likely have not been in a situation remotely like this one. peace
by Wondering
Tuesday May 27th, 2003 8:33 PM
You're listening to too much propaganda from the administration. This was a terrorist attack not a "war".

We continue to be astonished at the way people are trying to defend the war criminals, Bush and Blair. However, you're wasting your time. Invading or attacking another country for no damn reason is immoral, unethical, and downright criminal.

I bet you haven't seen the pictures at Robert-Fisk.Com showing the human results of this attack. If you had, perhaps you might wonder what the US has become.
by chello_b
(chello_b [at] yahoo.com) Wednesday May 28th, 2003 7:46 PM
It's a shame , American lives were risk for these people. The U.S. is always the first to be in a fight with other countries and it seems the payoff isnt worth it ! I have family in the military and I am scared for them, I see the news and the way the U.S. soldiers are treated . We free these people and they act as though ,we are taking over theyre country. I say the soldiers need to shoot first and ask questions later, since thats the way they wanted to be treated !!!
by Mr
Thursday May 29th, 2003 4:24 PM
You stupid dumbass, we did take over the fucking country, and who the fuck asked us to come over, and start shit in the first place. You Mr.(I have a hole in my head) need to wake up and smell the fucking coffee. How would you feel If some big ass country started to bomb the shit out of everything, and as you look around and see dead people blown to bitz (I have seen people blown to bitz, and it aint what it looks like on TV, it's quite sickening), just because they don't like your leader anymore(and no, it had nothing to do with how he treated his own people, remember, we gave him the green light in the 80's when he was doing this)...99% of you all don't have a clue what war is like, all you wanna be a combat troops, this ain't no video game, you don't get to respawn, or reset, when your dead, your dead thats it no more..........If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything....
by Yuri the Russian
Wednesday Jun 11th, 2003 7:29 PM
<<< Brent: Also, name any army in the world whose ass we could not kick. >>>

Brent. You are not informed.
US army could not "kick ass" of Russian army.

If the US would try to "liberate" Russia,
Russian government might be forced to exercise
its option to use nuclear weapons against the United States.

Russia has several thousands of nukes - enough to vaporize
every single metropolitan area in the United States
and most of land in between (except maybe some obscure parts of Alaska and Colorado).

If you think the US can be saved by so-called "anti-missile defence" you should be aware that Russia has a technology for so-called "orbital missiles" - missiles capable to attack the US from the South rather then over the North Pole.

Some nukes in Russian arsenal (for example SS-18 "Satan") are more powerful then anything in the US arsenal).

Thank you for your attention.
by ZAch Volta
(drinkingsilence [at] hotmail.com) Wednesday Jun 11th, 2003 7:51 PM
Yeah, I stand with you completly. there is no reason at all why this should all happen and i just want to let you know i feel for you and your kids.
by Jesus Fucking Chrst
Wednesday Jul 9th, 2003 12:00 AM
i think that this is just a load of BULLSHIT..


I mean really just STUPID

why war?/

why bother with war?
by noname
(bootyscratch.com) Friday Oct 31st, 2003 8:29 AM
that's a bad word!!!! You disgust me!!!!Why must you use such profanity!!!!!!
by Because there's always folks
Friday Oct 31st, 2003 12:33 PM
who won't believe in peace.

You think we'd be in Iraq today, if Osama ben Splattered hadn't pulled the 9/11 crap?

Or if Saddam hadn't gone to war against Iran?

Or if Saddam hadn't decided to take over Kuwait? (and don't hand out that crap about the US telling him to do it, even obliquely. He CHOSE to do it.)

There's always assholes who'll try to take over what they can get - and they ain't ALL from the US.
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