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Indybay Feature
Rod Coronado Responds to Smear Ads by Maxxam/Pacific Lumber
Timber Company and Tree-Sitters: Can't Beat 'Em? Smear 'Em!
Earth First!
For immediate release: April 23, 2003
Contact: Rod Coronado
Timber Company and Tree-Sitters: Can't Beat 'Em? Smear 'Em!
Activist Target of TV Smear Ads Challenges Pacific Lumber President to Public Debate
Humboldt county, California: After being the target of radio, television and newspaper advertisements leveling accusations of, "damaging property, endangering lives and terrorizing innocent people," environmental activist Rod Coronado challenged Maxxam/Pacific Lumber Company's (PL) president Robert Manne to an open debate on local radio, or the venue of Manne's choice, stating, "It's time for the citizens of Humboldt County to see for themselves who the real eco-terrorists are.
Tensions have risen in the long-standing campaign to save the old-growth forests of California's north coast. In recent months, PL's efforts to stop protests have been frustrated by activists who have re-occupied old-growth trees that the company's hired climbers have removed protesters from by force. Many local residents have expressed horror at the spectacle of young activists being lowered to the ground from heights of 130 to 200 feet up in the branches of giant old growth trees, lowered on ropes with their ankles tied together, handcuffed, and some having been subjected to pain compliance holds in mid-air, those holds administered by untrained PL-contractors (notably Eric Shatz Tree Service) rather than law enforcement.
PL has responded to criticism with a propagandistic smear campaign, targeting forest activists in general, tree-sitters in particular, and Rod Coronado specifically by name.
The ads began running on April 7, and now focus on Coronado, who spent four years in prison for his part in a 1992 direct action at an experimental fur farm at Michigan State University, where research was destroyed in fire damage, and animals were rescued. PL points to Coronado's involvement in the forest campaign, using his past involvement in illegal activities to tarnish the image of a movement that has historically adhered strictly to a nonviolence code in carrying out civil disobedience. Coronado is well-known as an Earth First! activist and is acting in a support capacity for the tree-sitters.
He states, "My past actions harmed no one. I served my time, and find it ludicrous that PL has the audacity to accuse me of being an eco-terrorist when their policies have allowed violence against non-violent activists, and actually resulted in the death of a protester," referring to Earth First! activist David Chain who was crushed to death in 1998, when an angry PL logger deliberately felled a tree on top of him.
"PL knows their days of logging old-growth forests are numbered and in their effort to profit from the destruction of these ancient trees they have proven a willingness to use physical violence and intimidation against young, committed forest defenders," says
Coronado.
PL is also the target of a lawsuit by the Martin Luther King Jr. Society which is suing the company for the use of King's image in their ad campaign which states, "Let their words speak for themselves." The ads feature quotes from a lecture Coronado gave in Washington D.C. at American University in January discussing the legitimacy and use of illegal activities in history by social change movements. "This kind of attack on free speech should send chills to those who believe in our constitutional rights. Corporations like PL would love nothing more than to silence, through intimidation, outspoken critics who historically serve a vital role in effecting positive social and environmental changes in our society in a difficult time." Coronado stated.
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For immediate release: April 23, 2003
Contact: Rod Coronado
Timber Company and Tree-Sitters: Can't Beat 'Em? Smear 'Em!
Activist Target of TV Smear Ads Challenges Pacific Lumber President to Public Debate
Humboldt county, California: After being the target of radio, television and newspaper advertisements leveling accusations of, "damaging property, endangering lives and terrorizing innocent people," environmental activist Rod Coronado challenged Maxxam/Pacific Lumber Company's (PL) president Robert Manne to an open debate on local radio, or the venue of Manne's choice, stating, "It's time for the citizens of Humboldt County to see for themselves who the real eco-terrorists are.
Tensions have risen in the long-standing campaign to save the old-growth forests of California's north coast. In recent months, PL's efforts to stop protests have been frustrated by activists who have re-occupied old-growth trees that the company's hired climbers have removed protesters from by force. Many local residents have expressed horror at the spectacle of young activists being lowered to the ground from heights of 130 to 200 feet up in the branches of giant old growth trees, lowered on ropes with their ankles tied together, handcuffed, and some having been subjected to pain compliance holds in mid-air, those holds administered by untrained PL-contractors (notably Eric Shatz Tree Service) rather than law enforcement.
PL has responded to criticism with a propagandistic smear campaign, targeting forest activists in general, tree-sitters in particular, and Rod Coronado specifically by name.
The ads began running on April 7, and now focus on Coronado, who spent four years in prison for his part in a 1992 direct action at an experimental fur farm at Michigan State University, where research was destroyed in fire damage, and animals were rescued. PL points to Coronado's involvement in the forest campaign, using his past involvement in illegal activities to tarnish the image of a movement that has historically adhered strictly to a nonviolence code in carrying out civil disobedience. Coronado is well-known as an Earth First! activist and is acting in a support capacity for the tree-sitters.
He states, "My past actions harmed no one. I served my time, and find it ludicrous that PL has the audacity to accuse me of being an eco-terrorist when their policies have allowed violence against non-violent activists, and actually resulted in the death of a protester," referring to Earth First! activist David Chain who was crushed to death in 1998, when an angry PL logger deliberately felled a tree on top of him.
"PL knows their days of logging old-growth forests are numbered and in their effort to profit from the destruction of these ancient trees they have proven a willingness to use physical violence and intimidation against young, committed forest defenders," says
Coronado.
PL is also the target of a lawsuit by the Martin Luther King Jr. Society which is suing the company for the use of King's image in their ad campaign which states, "Let their words speak for themselves." The ads feature quotes from a lecture Coronado gave in Washington D.C. at American University in January discussing the legitimacy and use of illegal activities in history by social change movements. "This kind of attack on free speech should send chills to those who believe in our constitutional rights. Corporations like PL would love nothing more than to silence, through intimidation, outspoken critics who historically serve a vital role in effecting positive social and environmental changes in our society in a difficult time." Coronado stated.
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Rod, I'm lost on this one. Exactly how is it an attack on free speech if PL runs an ad with an excerpt of a speech THAT YOU DELIVERED?
Rod didn't post this, so comments directed at him, might go unanswered. FYI............
Why don't you take a crack at it, or at least offer your opinion. You posted the thing and obviously agreed with him otherwise you wouldn't have done so. Also, how about responding to his notion that arson is "vital" a point that your friend and EF colleague Rod also argues.
Can Mr. Coronado deny brandishing a plastic jug (empty or otherwise) in front of Eric Schatz' house earlier this month? And this is acceptable non-threatening behavior from a convicted arsonist? That is analogous to some big rough dude taking a full swing at your face and stopping short by 2 inches. You flinch. You get pissed off. That is an attack by any standards, and in some arenas considered assault. You pussies really want to go there then laid off timber workers may want tol get a list of earth first and epic members and knock on your doors and take a short swing at you! This is called accelerating a situation, and it seems to be one that has been forwarded by activists like Mr. Coronado. You sir, are the king of the eco-thugs.
The writers of Mr. Coronado's so called response (ghost written?) seem to be a little bent out of shape now that PL has finally firmly jumped aboard the band wagon of smearing the opposition. You people have been doing this for years while posing behind the "we love you, peace to you" facade, and until now, we have taken it silently. Fuck you and keep your love away from me while you choke on what you have dished out. Double standards occur in everyday life, but they are also the inherent hallmark of a hypocrite and an activist.
The writers of Mr. Coronado's so called response (ghost written?) seem to be a little bent out of shape now that PL has finally firmly jumped aboard the band wagon of smearing the opposition. You people have been doing this for years while posing behind the "we love you, peace to you" facade, and until now, we have taken it silently. Fuck you and keep your love away from me while you choke on what you have dished out. Double standards occur in everyday life, but they are also the inherent hallmark of a hypocrite and an activist.
In the long run, civil resistance works and is an important and necessary part of democratic government. Civil resistance works because in the court of public opinion, right will eventually win out over power and money. Citizens have time, and corporations have money--but eventually corporations will run out of money.
Hooray for the MLK group--PL hasn't bought Martin Luther King, Jr.
Hooray for the MLK group--PL hasn't bought Martin Luther King, Jr.
Coronado is a good example of a "forest defender" acting like a radical right-to-lifer in front of Planned Parenthood. Concerned Citizen has previously claimed that such harrassment is not practiced "by any forest defender I know of." Ready to admit it now, or are you just going to keep on spewing lame rationalizations and obfuscations?
Someone claims that a forest defender acted in a non-violent manner, but my witness has been that all forest defenders I have seen and known are dedicated to non-violence.
A commitment to non-violence is an awesome undertaking for any human being, but especially one who lives under the threat of violence from others.
I would like to see more people publicly commit themselves to a pledge of non-violence.
If PL/Maxxam is serious about wanting to communicate with the people they are offending, they should ask all their employees and contractors to pledge themselves to non-violence also. Doubtless many or most of their employees/contractors abhor violence, but to make a public commitment to non-violence is an important next step. It would certainly promote communication.
A commitment to non-violence is an awesome undertaking for any human being, but especially one who lives under the threat of violence from others.
I would like to see more people publicly commit themselves to a pledge of non-violence.
If PL/Maxxam is serious about wanting to communicate with the people they are offending, they should ask all their employees and contractors to pledge themselves to non-violence also. Doubtless many or most of their employees/contractors abhor violence, but to make a public commitment to non-violence is an important next step. It would certainly promote communication.
Were there any glaring lies or misstatements in the PL television/radio ad? I see a lot of folks complaining about it, but was it factual?
While the tone may have been negative, was the information correct? If so, I don't see much room for complaint.
Sold.
While the tone may have been negative, was the information correct? If so, I don't see much room for complaint.
Sold.
Intellectual triumph
C.C. wrote in a post: "Civil resistance works because in the court of public opinion, right will eventually win out over power and money.
Just what is this??? How about the court of law? If you can't win your case there (after how many trys?) do you get to flout the laws just because you lost? When the studies and the science don't back your position , then the issue becomes one of ancestors,goddess, and problems with our culture. And using the example of civil rights (Selma) is not an equivlent case. Civil rights was about trying to change beliefs. Even then the activists were backed by fedral law. Wish I had more time.
Just what is this??? How about the court of law? If you can't win your case there (after how many trys?) do you get to flout the laws just because you lost? When the studies and the science don't back your position , then the issue becomes one of ancestors,goddess, and problems with our culture. And using the example of civil rights (Selma) is not an equivlent case. Civil rights was about trying to change beliefs. Even then the activists were backed by fedral law. Wish I had more time.
Whoa! The US government went through many changes, moving from a position of first not recognizing blacks as human, to recognizing them as human but subordinate, to "equal" but separate (Plessy v. Ferguson). The civil rights movement was necessary to change the climate so that even the Supreme Court would reverse itself (Brown v. Board of Education) and recognize that blacks were inherently no different from non-blacks and should have the same legal protections.
The women's rights movement has similarly evolved. The first women to vote in the U.S. did so illegally and were jailed. Nonetheless, their actions contributed substantially to bringing about women's right to vote.
The women's rights movement has similarly evolved. The first women to vote in the U.S. did so illegally and were jailed. Nonetheless, their actions contributed substantially to bringing about women's right to vote.
So all of the critique's, why no chime in on the challenge to a public debate? wasn't there when rod protested across the street from eric's house the day after he told mystikque that if the branch she was on broke, that Eric and his people would testify that she committed suicide. So, for now, I just put out the information and focus on what I know about. Don't like the information, don't read it. Don't like what's posted, do your own research and post.
One instance in which US citizens did not commit civil resistance, to our undying shame, was when the government gave the order to turn back boatloads of (mostly children) refugees who fled the Nazis and arrived on our shores during WWII. Because no one intervened, the ships were turned back and forced to return to Germany. The occupants were sent to death camps and nearly all were exterminated there, despite the fact that they had actually reached the US some weeks before.
I would like to believe that the activism shown recently is a sign this type of atrocity will not be committed in the U.S. again. However, we none of us know how strong our beliefs and our faith are until we are tested. We would like to believe that there is someone, or something, that we would protect, when it is in our power to do so, whether it is the safety of children or of people of a different faith than our own, the dignity and freedom of all races of people, or the physical infrastructure of our nation, including its ancient redwoods, and a clean, safe water supply.
I would like to believe that the activism shown recently is a sign this type of atrocity will not be committed in the U.S. again. However, we none of us know how strong our beliefs and our faith are until we are tested. We would like to believe that there is someone, or something, that we would protect, when it is in our power to do so, whether it is the safety of children or of people of a different faith than our own, the dignity and freedom of all races of people, or the physical infrastructure of our nation, including its ancient redwoods, and a clean, safe water supply.
Nobody should attempt to speak for someone else; all we can do is speak for ourselves if we really wish to be honest. Which is why it is strange that semp seems to be coronado's mouth piece. Perhaps semp may wish to consider running for public office since such enjoyment is being taken speaking for others?
As for a public debate, it is obvious that the more informed and practiced speaker will win that contest, so it would be foolish for coronado to even show up. Besides, what does a company president have to gain with arguing with a convicted felon?
As for a public debate, it is obvious that the more informed and practiced speaker will win that contest, so it would be foolish for coronado to even show up. Besides, what does a company president have to gain with arguing with a convicted felon?
I don't think anyone here is discounting the right to free speech. Everyone recognizes the importance of protesting what people disagree with. The point at issue is the methods of protest. Can the destruction of property be considered a valid form of protest, and should those who disagree with that method do everything they can to distance themselves by such actions? It has been a problem that has plagued the environmental protest movement.
As for the debate, the two folks involved seem to differ severely in philosophy. This would make any debate between them difficult to reach any conclusion. Thus, any debate would be a waste of time, and would only go to further divide the community, which may be what both parties want. I don't think any movement should allow folks like Coronado to represent them. His actions ruined the validity of the animal rights movement and will do the same to the environmental movement. To be frank, his association to the treesit actions is the timber industry's dream come true.
As for the debate, the two folks involved seem to differ severely in philosophy. This would make any debate between them difficult to reach any conclusion. Thus, any debate would be a waste of time, and would only go to further divide the community, which may be what both parties want. I don't think any movement should allow folks like Coronado to represent them. His actions ruined the validity of the animal rights movement and will do the same to the environmental movement. To be frank, his association to the treesit actions is the timber industry's dream come true.
CC loves to bring up the extreme analogies, like public stonings and concentration camps, to justify stupid actions by "forest defenders". That's another trait these clowns share with the fetus freaks. Operation Rescue loves to equate Planned Parenthood with Nazi Germany and concentration camps.
You cannot negotiate or compromise with fundamentalists because fundamentalists reject the very idea of compromise. That applies to fundamentalists of the goddess variety as well as the usual ones.
You cannot negotiate or compromise with fundamentalists because fundamentalists reject the very idea of compromise. That applies to fundamentalists of the goddess variety as well as the usual ones.
What is amazing is that Nessie, concerned citizen and so many of the other "good" protestors refuse to condemn the acts of Corronado or answer any of the questions regrading his conduct that have been raised in these posts. Their silence speaks volumes.
By the way, press releases normally include telephone numbers of a contact person. Why did you not include one Mr. Corronado?
By the way, press releases normally include telephone numbers of a contact person. Why did you not include one Mr. Corronado?
It seems like of lot of right wing conservtives and racists are offended by this article. How could someone be sick enough to refer to theirself as "Yaki Auctioner", refering to a recent radio interview with Rod Coronado who spoke of his indigenous heritage as a Yaqui man. During the interview he talked about people from his tribe being sold as slaves in LA. during the early 1900's. The person who calls themself as a "Yaki Auctioner" reveals the bigoted genocidal attitude that it takes to murder and enslave people, as well as clearcut, cut old-growth forests etc.
The stupid arguments posted by those whos oppose the considerate and intelligent approach to interacting with our environment are shallow and only attempt to twist peoples words while presenting no useful information.
This struggle against destructive loggi ng is getting stonger all the time. Every time a tree-sitters life is risked in the name of profit, more people learn of the campaign and are inspired to join. MaxxamPL is so desperate now that they are resorting to a smear ad campaign. This company won't last much longer under the thumb of Maxxam. Forest Defenders are trying to ensure that when Charles Hurwitz pulls out that he doesn't take all of the old-growth that he plans to.
The stupid arguments posted by those whos oppose the considerate and intelligent approach to interacting with our environment are shallow and only attempt to twist peoples words while presenting no useful information.
This struggle against destructive loggi ng is getting stonger all the time. Every time a tree-sitters life is risked in the name of profit, more people learn of the campaign and are inspired to join. MaxxamPL is so desperate now that they are resorting to a smear ad campaign. This company won't last much longer under the thumb of Maxxam. Forest Defenders are trying to ensure that when Charles Hurwitz pulls out that he doesn't take all of the old-growth that he plans to.
So, according to human, arson and threats of violence are "the considerate and intelligent approach to interacting with the environment"? Not telling?
All the non-violence pledges of the "forest defenders" ring tinny as long as their movement winks and nods at assault, intimidation, and sabotage. I've got to give Coronado credit on one point: he comes right out and says its OK rather than waffling on it like Darryl Cherney and Concerned Citizen. You know where the guy's coming from. Cherney recorded a tune clled "The Ballad of the Lonesome Tree Spiker". Cutesy cutesy, huh?
With regard to this latest lame attempt to play the race card: Sorry to burst your romantic bubble about pre-Columbian Norh American cultures, but capturing, buying, selling, and killing slaves was the norm for a lot of them including the Aztecs. Whose genocide was that? Or was that somehow "good" slavery because of its roots in such rich tradition? Also, check your facts in the historical record before you take Coronado at his word on Yaqui slaves being sold in LA in the early 1900s.
For your information, timber and ranching are two of the economic mainstays for Humboldt County's burgeoning Hispanic community. That's part of the reason they have such a strong and vibrant presence in towns like Fortuna and Rio Dell relative to the "very diverse community" of Arcata.
All the non-violence pledges of the "forest defenders" ring tinny as long as their movement winks and nods at assault, intimidation, and sabotage. I've got to give Coronado credit on one point: he comes right out and says its OK rather than waffling on it like Darryl Cherney and Concerned Citizen. You know where the guy's coming from. Cherney recorded a tune clled "The Ballad of the Lonesome Tree Spiker". Cutesy cutesy, huh?
With regard to this latest lame attempt to play the race card: Sorry to burst your romantic bubble about pre-Columbian Norh American cultures, but capturing, buying, selling, and killing slaves was the norm for a lot of them including the Aztecs. Whose genocide was that? Or was that somehow "good" slavery because of its roots in such rich tradition? Also, check your facts in the historical record before you take Coronado at his word on Yaqui slaves being sold in LA in the early 1900s.
For your information, timber and ranching are two of the economic mainstays for Humboldt County's burgeoning Hispanic community. That's part of the reason they have such a strong and vibrant presence in towns like Fortuna and Rio Dell relative to the "very diverse community" of Arcata.
Go to jail, serve time, get released and that is it folks. You have paid your debt to society. All those who act so righetous when referring to a convicted "felon" had better look in the mirror. Rod's acts in the name of animal liberation were commindable and inspiring. So some will disagree because of the nature of the act but really people... everday in your backyard young, passionate people are getting harrased and hurt by some macho men on a power trip. The defenders' passion and idealism are amazing to see and be a part of. The community they had build was wonderful and supportive. And it has been taken away from them! To those of you who have never experienced something of the sort your angered responses are not surprising. Someday you might consider letting down your defenses and opening your eyes for a change. Can I ask if anyone actually feels good knowing they have contributed to the pain and sadness of good people, people who, god forbid, wanted to create positive change and protect trees and animals???... Owww scary. This may seem like a rant or something but I don't care. The forest defenders and supporters are beautiful people and as is Rod.
Good one tuna. The reason that old Ness cannot discredit old Rod is because she and her band of TERRORIST think he same way as old Rodney. Did you dig that haircut of Rod when he was holding up the milk jug. I think he got to close to the flames when he touched it off. Didn't improve his looks any either.
Question: Should everyone on all sides of the logging issue in Humboldt take a pledge of non-violence, as most and probably all of the forest defenders have?
Answer: Absolutely.
Question: Does anyone really believe PL/Maxxam is frightened by Rod Coronado; and has this corporation been careful to maintain a strictly non-violent code of ethics?
Answer: No, and no.
Question: For that matter, does anyone discussing
Rod Coronado have any evidence that he has actually ever hurt another human being?
Answer: No, and the danger of assuming that he has, and repeating such assumptions, is that we are guilty of libel.
Question: Does anyone know whether the damage to a frontloader was a corporate play for sympathy, a gesture of a frustrated resident or onlooker, a prank by an older child, or an action by a forest defender?
Answer: No. It could be any of these or more.
Answer: Absolutely.
Question: Does anyone really believe PL/Maxxam is frightened by Rod Coronado; and has this corporation been careful to maintain a strictly non-violent code of ethics?
Answer: No, and no.
Question: For that matter, does anyone discussing
Rod Coronado have any evidence that he has actually ever hurt another human being?
Answer: No, and the danger of assuming that he has, and repeating such assumptions, is that we are guilty of libel.
Question: Does anyone know whether the damage to a frontloader was a corporate play for sympathy, a gesture of a frustrated resident or onlooker, a prank by an older child, or an action by a forest defender?
Answer: No. It could be any of these or more.
Some observers are concerned with the damage done to a frontloader, and who committed the damage. While I believe all of us would agree that there are situations in which property damage would be warranted for the greater good of mankind (a firefighter who chops down a door to save a house, for example), it seems pretty obvious that the forest defenders have chosen not to cause property damage.
Guerilla warfare is, after all, the easiest thing in the world, and if the decision to refrain from damaging property were once to be put in abeyance, damage would be everywhere. Not one, but many, many vehicles would have dirt, sugar, or other damaging materials added to their gas tanks. The fact this hasn't happened is a strong argument for the small damage that has occurred being rather suspicious in its solitary nature. PL/Maxxam is not afraid to throw money at the public relations problem they have in Humboldt County. They bring SLAPP suits, buy full page ads and radio spots, etc. What would retiring one vehicle be but another relatively small investment for the corporation?
Another possibility is that someone who is not bound by the limitations that forest defenders have set for themselves has damaged the machinery. This could either be someone acting alone, out of their own frustration, as a free agent, or it could be someone who has a vested interest in inciting anger against the forest defenders, an agent provocateur.
It takes incredible faith and strength of will to maintain purely passive resistance. At this point, it seems clear the forest defenders have been successful in holding to this position. To continue to do so will earn them the respect of the nation.
Guerilla warfare is, after all, the easiest thing in the world, and if the decision to refrain from damaging property were once to be put in abeyance, damage would be everywhere. Not one, but many, many vehicles would have dirt, sugar, or other damaging materials added to their gas tanks. The fact this hasn't happened is a strong argument for the small damage that has occurred being rather suspicious in its solitary nature. PL/Maxxam is not afraid to throw money at the public relations problem they have in Humboldt County. They bring SLAPP suits, buy full page ads and radio spots, etc. What would retiring one vehicle be but another relatively small investment for the corporation?
Another possibility is that someone who is not bound by the limitations that forest defenders have set for themselves has damaged the machinery. This could either be someone acting alone, out of their own frustration, as a free agent, or it could be someone who has a vested interest in inciting anger against the forest defenders, an agent provocateur.
It takes incredible faith and strength of will to maintain purely passive resistance. At this point, it seems clear the forest defenders have been successful in holding to this position. To continue to do so will earn them the respect of the nation.
Lets put aside the front loader for a minute. How can you honsetly say that "it seems pretty obvious that the forest defenders have chosen not to cause property damage." What about digging up logging roads, placing barracades on roads, destroying downed timber (which is private property whether you want to believe that or not), placing cars in the ditches, blocking drainage culverts, driving smoke belching cars in a threatening manner up to the PL door, and -- finally -- threatening a logger with a knife. These don't qualify as property damage.
Also, your comparison of Coronado and all the other forest defenders to a fireman is a disgrace. There is not way you can compare the bravery of firemen -- like those who lost their lives in 9/11 -- to a convicted ARSONIST who is giving help and acting as a leader for the forest defenders like Remedy, et. al.
Why don't you just admit that the folks in NCEF like Coronado, respect him, and believe in what he stands for.
Also, your comparison of Coronado and all the other forest defenders to a fireman is a disgrace. There is not way you can compare the bravery of firemen -- like those who lost their lives in 9/11 -- to a convicted ARSONIST who is giving help and acting as a leader for the forest defenders like Remedy, et. al.
Why don't you just admit that the folks in NCEF like Coronado, respect him, and believe in what he stands for.
To yeah, I hope you realize that your position is purely one of ideals. Many extremists, aka zealots, have believed their cause to be just to the detriment of themselves and others. They thought that way things existed were wrong and were hell bent on thrusting aside all abstacles in order to accomplish there goals. Some used violence some did not. Nazi Germany comes to mind. You will be outraged, but the Nazis also completely believed they were right and everyone else was wrong. History proved them mistaken. We'll see how it deals with you. The key is to take your blinders off occasionally and sniff the horseshit.
By the way, Nazi referrences are completely in order when complying to CC's brand of analogy. Right back at ya.
By the way, Nazi referrences are completely in order when complying to CC's brand of analogy. Right back at ya.
Property damage isn't driving a stinky car or logging truck, but putting sugar in the logging truck's gas tank. So, we can see the enormous restraint that has prevented the forest defenders from wiping out a whole fleet of trucks and tractors, and that is admirable.
PL's attempt to demonify a single activist and then pretend it thinks all activists are frightening is disingenous. It's cynical, self-serving posturing. No one believes it any more than anyone believes all lumber industry employees are now murderers.
Both positions are ridiculous, but only one position has "seriously" been promoted in the last week. Again, my admiration lies with those who choose not to try to inflame the conflict by pretending they believe that the history of one person from each "side" applies to everyone from that "side."
PL's attempt to demonify a single activist and then pretend it thinks all activists are frightening is disingenous. It's cynical, self-serving posturing. No one believes it any more than anyone believes all lumber industry employees are now murderers.
Both positions are ridiculous, but only one position has "seriously" been promoted in the last week. Again, my admiration lies with those who choose not to try to inflame the conflict by pretending they believe that the history of one person from each "side" applies to everyone from that "side."
Hey Cornered Citizen, you're not fooling anybody. Pointing out that Coronado has an arson conviction, has not disavowed arson, and has personally taken it upon himself to intimidate PL contract employeesis not libel. It's pointing out a matter of public record. It's the same as pointing out that a high risk sex offender is hanging out at the local playground.
Given the list of property damage against PL by "forest defenders" pointed out by Tuna, isn't your argument that the loader was possibly sabotaged by PL about as meritorious as the argument that September 11 was the result of some Jewish conspiacy to discredit Arabs?
Given the list of property damage against PL by "forest defenders" pointed out by Tuna, isn't your argument that the loader was possibly sabotaged by PL about as meritorious as the argument that September 11 was the result of some Jewish conspiacy to discredit Arabs?
What this entire exercise with Coronado (and this rather lengthy set of postings) prove is that all of the so-called environmentalists and env. organizations in Humboldt support what Coronado stands for because at the end of the day they all believe in the adage: "by any means necessary." Nowhere did you hear groups like EPIC distancing themselves from Coronado -- they never distance themselves from EF, the Forest Defenders, etc.. The Trees Foundation, they are quiet too. The real agenda of all of them is to put timber companies like PL out of buisness. Once they are done with PL then they will move on to Simpson, and so on.
The silence from these individuals/groups is really deafening.
The silence from these individuals/groups is really deafening.
I don't know Rod Coronado, and I doubt I'll ever meet him, but from what I've read, I'm unconvinced he poses any threat. I don't believe this brouhaha stems from any real fear of this one individual. I think it's just a PR pitch from PL/Maxxam.
And don't forget Tuna, once they are done with the timber Industry, they will move on to the grape grower's, then the farmers. With the Water Quaility Board, there is one member that is highly upset with P.L. What she doesn't understand is that she is next to be taken down by this Terrorist Group, because this board member grows grapes down around Napa.
The only reason that all these groups are aganist P.L. right now is because this whole issue is a cash cow for them. There is money to be made showing disobediance towards law enforcement and the timber Industry.
The only reason that all these groups are aganist P.L. right now is because this whole issue is a cash cow for them. There is money to be made showing disobediance towards law enforcement and the timber Industry.
The only reason that all these groups are against PL right now is that they are destroying the water quality, neighboring properties, endangered species habitat, steep slopes, and the largest stands of unprotected old growth left in the world.
How sad that some people can't imagine standing up for something so fundamental as clean air and water unless they were getting paid for it. Forest activists know that when they stand up to Maxxam Corporation, they are facing outstanding corruption and the possibilities of torture and/or death. And they do it for the richness that comes from doing what’s right for all people, as well as our nonhuman relations.
It is appropriate that you call yourself B.S.
How sad that some people can't imagine standing up for something so fundamental as clean air and water unless they were getting paid for it. Forest activists know that when they stand up to Maxxam Corporation, they are facing outstanding corruption and the possibilities of torture and/or death. And they do it for the richness that comes from doing what’s right for all people, as well as our nonhuman relations.
It is appropriate that you call yourself B.S.
If you want to poison your own water, go for it, but you don't have the right to destroy everyone else's. Neither does Maxxam.
Hold on here Jen. What are you talking about old growth. Have you forgotten about Headwaters? As it stands, P.L. can no longer cut old growth in the sawmills no more. So how do you figure that P.L. is harming old growth? Clean air? I don't see any of you out on the freeway telling everyone to turn off their engines. How do you haul your butts around, on a donkey? And for Mr squeaky clean enlightened E.F., how careful are you about putting things down your drain. If you don't use any of the stuff that is on the market for cleaning your home, you must live in a pig pin.
In the last couple weeks, PL/Maxxam has taken down an 800 year old tree and a 1000 year old tree. Doesn't get much older than that.
I think the word from "Same old BS" is searching for is "pigpen," and no, it doesn't require a chemistry lab to clean a house. However, housecleaning is not what PL/Maxxam is doing to the water supply of its employees, neighbors, and children.
I think the word from "Same old BS" is searching for is "pigpen," and no, it doesn't require a chemistry lab to clean a house. However, housecleaning is not what PL/Maxxam is doing to the water supply of its employees, neighbors, and children.
Cornered Citizen isn't really coming up with any counter arguments on the Coronado issue any more. He's just dogmatically repeating the same assertions over and over again, as though he's determined not to let facts get in the way of his precious beliefs. Does there have to be an actual arson with major property damage before a threat is recognized? Based on his way of handling the loader sabotage issue, Cornered Citizen would simply insinuate that any arson was committed by PL. Right Cornered Citizen?
Where do you get off spewing your phony ideals? Protect the old growth? Please. Here is the truth. The largest uninterrupted stands of old growth redwood are already protected. They will never be cut. Everyone but you enviros seem to treasure and appreciate the county, state, and federal parks. You people are all hung up on saving old growth on private property, yet you glaringly fail to admit that all the big stands have been set aside there (on PL as conservation areas due to the HCP) as well. So, what you are all excited about is the remaining scattered strips of cut over residuals that were skipped over the first time. You make it seem like these are untouched 'groves' where fairies flit and elves dance in virginal harmony. Yeah, right. Maybe if they can fight their way through the 300 stem per acre second growth.
And I am sick of hearing you people barf off about steep slopes when you can't even define them. Give me a number, a degree, a percent because I want to discuss scientific facts, not your comfort level.
And I am sick of hearing you people barf off about steep slopes when you can't even define them. Give me a number, a degree, a percent because I want to discuss scientific facts, not your comfort level.
We remember the term "plausible deniability" from the Iran-Contra scandal, where a system was set up to protect pea-brained Ronnie from accountability for his illegal actions. The same term applies to the structure of the enviro-fundamentalist movement. And good old Coronado gave it away when he blabbed it in a letter to the Eureka Times-Standard. According to Coronado's account, he and Judi Bari went back a few years in Earth First. In fact, Judi Bari was on her way to Coronado's house in Santa Cruz when she was bombed (yes, I believe it was an attempt on her life). She and Coronado were both advocates of arson and sabotage, however, she was concerned about that being a legal, or at the very least a PR problem for Earth First. Her words to Coronado were, "If you're going to do something like that (firebombing), don't do it under Earth First's name." Thus Earth Liberation Front was born. The significant part of the quote is "don't do it under Earth First's name." Earth Liberation Front is truly a "front" for Earth First to use when they want to do something dangerous or violent. If one scrutinizes the positions taken by EPIC or NEC, it is clear that they simply follow the line of Earth First. There has never been any ariticle in either of their rags denouncing stupid positions or actions taken by Earth First. Most of their articles on forest issues read like an Earth First press release. It's clear that EPIC/Earth First and NEC/Earth First are at least as beholden to Earth First as Pacific Lumber is to Maxxam. Even more so, since Pacific Lumber's relationship with Maxxam is constrained by State and Federal laws and the Habitat Conservation Plan.
Anyone here think that this name calling is going to solve anything?
Better to not respond to an insult than dignify it with a response.
Better to not respond to an insult than dignify it with a response.
The so called Habitat Conservation Plan, which was obtained through fraud and allows Maxxam to knowingly cut occupied endangered species habitat, does not restrict the corporation, like they claim. If it did, Simpson wouldn't be trying so hard to get one. Every independent scientific team who has looked at the HCP agrees that it is based on faulty premises and "timber science" - that which serves the bottom line of the industry and has little to do with what happens in the forest.
It is important to save every old growth tree, whether it is in a virgin stand or surrounded by third growth. Ancient trees offer more than just a neat thing to look at in a park. They hold up hillsides, filter water and scrub the atmosphere clean of the carbon perpetually released by the burning of fossil fuels. They offer much more to the community and the health of future generations than the dollars generated (for Hurwitz) by cutting them.
So, yes, save the old growth, please!
It is important to save every old growth tree, whether it is in a virgin stand or surrounded by third growth. Ancient trees offer more than just a neat thing to look at in a park. They hold up hillsides, filter water and scrub the atmosphere clean of the carbon perpetually released by the burning of fossil fuels. They offer much more to the community and the health of future generations than the dollars generated (for Hurwitz) by cutting them.
So, yes, save the old growth, please!
Which Independent Scientific Review teams are you referring to?
The review team assigned to answer questions for the water quality board did not address the validity of the HCP's science. While some of the recommedations indicate a preference for other formuals and methods, those used in the HCP were never discounted.
Are there any other teams you know of that really did discredit the "timber science"?
As for carbon sequestering, all trees obtain carbon from the atmosphere. Those that grow at the fastest rates, sequester the most carbon. Old growth does not grow at a fast rate.
The review team assigned to answer questions for the water quality board did not address the validity of the HCP's science. While some of the recommedations indicate a preference for other formuals and methods, those used in the HCP were never discounted.
Are there any other teams you know of that really did discredit the "timber science"?
As for carbon sequestering, all trees obtain carbon from the atmosphere. Those that grow at the fastest rates, sequester the most carbon. Old growth does not grow at a fast rate.
.....about the Habitat Conservation Plan. It entails the the most restrictive forest practice prescriptions on Earth. Accepting it was an extremely bitter pill for PALCO, and other timber companies lobbied heavily against their signing it because of their fear of the precedent it would set. It is WAY more restrictive than an early draft submitted by PALCO. Simpson is trying to get an HCP that is less restrictive than PALCO's. Your statement that "every independent team that has looked at the HCP agrees that it is based on faulty premises and 'timber science' is also patently untrue. The HCP deliberately errs on the side of caution. Your reference to a "clear-cutting plan" ignores the fact that the HCP has shifted PALCO's forest practices towards selective cutting with helicopter yarding to minimize ground disturbance. Equating residual, isolated old-growth threes with an intact old-growth ecosystem is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. And trees are not water filters. So much for your "science".
If there is any fraud where the Gallegos lawsuit is concerned, it is on the part of Gallegos and his cult-loving assistant Tim Stoen. That's why California Department of Fish and Game and CDF (the alleged fraud victims) and the State Attorney General have trounced Gallegos and Stoen. But then, according to the enviro-fundamentalist cult mentality, that just makes them part of the Big Conspiracy.......
If there is any fraud where the Gallegos lawsuit is concerned, it is on the part of Gallegos and his cult-loving assistant Tim Stoen. That's why California Department of Fish and Game and CDF (the alleged fraud victims) and the State Attorney General have trounced Gallegos and Stoen. But then, according to the enviro-fundamentalist cult mentality, that just makes them part of the Big Conspiracy.......
No one is honestly worried that any of the forest defenders is going to commit arson. But pretending that one is worried is seen as a way to stroke the community for sympathy for PL/Maxxam. It's hard for a corporation, especially one which has been bought out by an out-of-state corporate raider, to get sympathy on a human level. So this is their attempt to do so. It's dishonest and manipulative of the community in which the corporation operates.
But corporations are not as answerable for their actions as individuals, or even groups of individuals in a community, are. While we as individuals are conscious of the need to be as honest as possible when we express ourselves, to a corporation, expressing anything it wants is just PR.
But corporations are not as answerable for their actions as individuals, or even groups of individuals in a community, are. While we as individuals are conscious of the need to be as honest as possible when we express ourselves, to a corporation, expressing anything it wants is just PR.
You must be very talented at reading thousands of minds to say with such certainty that "no one is honestly worried that any of the forest defenders is going to commit arson."
I've got what you want. You want to be me. It is sad. It is sad that the man removing and adding stars on our sneetch bellies is the only true winner.
Being reasonable is a gift. It helps one keeps one's balance when some corporation with an axe to grind or profits to be made tries to frighten us with wild fear-mongering.
I am also confident that no one is worried that a tsunami will sweep over North America sometime in the next few weeks, leaving Kansas at the bottom of the sea. Even if, say, some corporation bought newspaper ads to try to frighten us into believing it (so we would passively permit some action not in our best interest), we would still see that the premise was unreasonable and therefore unbelievable.
I am also confident that no one is worried that a tsunami will sweep over North America sometime in the next few weeks, leaving Kansas at the bottom of the sea. Even if, say, some corporation bought newspaper ads to try to frighten us into believing it (so we would passively permit some action not in our best interest), we would still see that the premise was unreasonable and therefore unbelievable.
Hey CC,
Tell me, how much pot do you inhale each day? You and your group are not reasonable. Would you be willing to sit down with scientist that can prove to you what you claim is false? Tell all of us right now if you would be willing to do that! And if you and your group are proven wrong in your theory, would you state right here on Indybay that what the environmentalist are doing does not have any scientfic backing and that this whole thing really has nothing to do with saving the trees, but is more of a racial issue because of Hurwitz himself? Hmmmm........
Tell me, how much pot do you inhale each day? You and your group are not reasonable. Would you be willing to sit down with scientist that can prove to you what you claim is false? Tell all of us right now if you would be willing to do that! And if you and your group are proven wrong in your theory, would you state right here on Indybay that what the environmentalist are doing does not have any scientfic backing and that this whole thing really has nothing to do with saving the trees, but is more of a racial issue because of Hurwitz himself? Hmmmm........
Now someone is trying to play the "race" card. It's an ethical mistake to play that game, even though the person trying desperately to play it may believe the ends justify the means.
A corporate raider is a type of occupation, unrelated to age, eye color, race, grandparents' place of birth, or blood type. Malfeasance by a corporation isn't related to, much less caused by, any organic descriptors of its executives' bodies. "Race" is a medical construct and a cultural concept, but it has no relation to the action of a corporation.
A corporate raider is a type of occupation, unrelated to age, eye color, race, grandparents' place of birth, or blood type. Malfeasance by a corporation isn't related to, much less caused by, any organic descriptors of its executives' bodies. "Race" is a medical construct and a cultural concept, but it has no relation to the action of a corporation.
Now someone is trying to play the "race" card. It's an ethical mistake to play that game, even though the person trying desperately to play it may believe the ends justify the means.
A corporate raider is a type of occupation, unrelated to age, eye color, race, grandparents' place of birth, or blood type. Malfeasance by a corporation isn't related to, much less caused by, any organic descriptors of its executives' bodies. "Race" is a medical construct and a cultural concept, but it has no relation to the action of a corporation.
A corporate raider is a type of occupation, unrelated to age, eye color, race, grandparents' place of birth, or blood type. Malfeasance by a corporation isn't related to, much less caused by, any organic descriptors of its executives' bodies. "Race" is a medical construct and a cultural concept, but it has no relation to the action of a corporation.
O.K., I have heard your ranting and raving CC. You clearly sidestepped the main issue of the comment. Would you be willing to sit down with a scientist to look at the true facts?
Actually, I don't have a "group." I'm just a citizen concerned with what is happening to my country's environment. While I was in school, I worked for several years for a scientist whose specialty was wetlands mitigation. I do have a basic understanding of what is happening in the watersheds in question, and it is alarming.
It's unlikely that one could find a qualified specialist who would defend PL/Maxxam's processes who was not being paid to represent Maxxam. However, if you think you have found such a person, and you are willing to dialogue cooperatively with some of the people who are acting to defend the forest, I think you should arrange to do so. I believe through communication you may find many commonalities and perhaps even some solutions.
It's unlikely that one could find a qualified specialist who would defend PL/Maxxam's processes who was not being paid to represent Maxxam. However, if you think you have found such a person, and you are willing to dialogue cooperatively with some of the people who are acting to defend the forest, I think you should arrange to do so. I believe through communication you may find many commonalities and perhaps even some solutions.
By focusing on the environmental destruction that these logging practices cause, we forget something of equal importance: These ancient trees are a national treasure. Few of us can hope to live for 100 years, yet these trees have lived for many hundreds. It's not simply that our children, and children's children, won't benefit from their presence--it is unlikely any human children will. The chances are that we will make it impossible for trees ever again to reach this monumental majesty.
Compared to these trees, the Statue of Liberty is just a cheap trinket. And yet, I think that if some corporation bought Liberty to melt her down to make eyelet grommets for yuppie basketball shoes, there would be an outcry. And not just about the environmental problems involved in knocking her down and dragging her out.
Compared to these trees, the Statue of Liberty is just a cheap trinket. And yet, I think that if some corporation bought Liberty to melt her down to make eyelet grommets for yuppie basketball shoes, there would be an outcry. And not just about the environmental problems involved in knocking her down and dragging her out.
Hey Cornered Citizen:
Arson for various reasons is common. Tsunamis in Kansas are not. Comprende?
Arson for various reasons is common. Tsunamis in Kansas are not. Comprende?
Criticism of scientific papers regarding impacts and impact management on timberlands is common. Outright dismissal is rare. That's just the nature of scientific review. "Forest defenders" and their pseudo-scientific cronies like Salmon Forever misrepresent criticism of industry-sponsored work as dismissal and gloss over criticism of work that fits their preconceived ideas. An good example of this is the response to the excellent and objective UC Team review of papers on the Freshwater flooding issue. They point out some major fallacies in the work by Ray Rice on the industry side and by Leslie Reid on the enviro side. Go find the UC Team paper on a website. Be careful what literature you cite. Somebody may actually look it up and read it. And at least read the literature before you try to speak with such authority about what if says.
The last time I checked fish & game, cdf., usgs and noma were all either state or fed agencies. They all approved and signed off on palcos plan. All are paid by TAX dollars. All will still be working tomorrow if palco shuts down. What would be the point of lying and and giving false testimony. It must be nice to live in a perfect world where nothing ever dies. Trees last forever. People can live anywhere they choose with out the hassle of ownership or taxes. Its to bad that in the real world things adapt or die. Why is that so hard to understand. Nature is Not static.
Hold on here CC, I think you might be just a little confused. The forest and the wetlands are two different things. Each has it's own diversed eco system. While you may have a basic understanding of the wetlands, that is totally different from the eco system of the forest.
Also it appears that you have no trust in any scientist. So it appears that you would take the word of a radical that knows nothing at all. The environmentalist had an opportunity to prove things with the scientific panel that was put together by the water board. Only problem was that it was rigged by the enviro's to hide the real truth. That is the reason they didn't have any credibility to the problem.
Also it appears that you have no trust in any scientist. So it appears that you would take the word of a radical that knows nothing at all. The environmentalist had an opportunity to prove things with the scientific panel that was put together by the water board. Only problem was that it was rigged by the enviro's to hide the real truth. That is the reason they didn't have any credibility to the problem.
Just who are you kidding CC. How many thousands of acres that are under lock and key at this moment as we write. Take the headwaters, all you enviro's want to make it where no on can go into the forest. So what good does it do to save these trees if you don't want nobody to see them? And you are telling us in your writting that there won't be any for our children to see? GIVE ME A BREAK!!!!! Get your facts straight before you write them down and make a fool of yourself.I am upset that our fearless leader Gray Davis went and took the surplus money that should have went to the taxpayers and bought trees. That is another person I will be glad to see leave office with his tail between his legs. Liberals has really got this State in a a state of disrepair.
Hey DC,
These people are still trying to convince the uneducated public that when you cut a redwood down, it will never come back. Go figure that one. The next time these radicals want to protest in Scotia, they should take a moment and look around the hillsides. These areas have been clearcut three different times! The timber is so thick now it should be thinned out.
These people are still trying to convince the uneducated public that when you cut a redwood down, it will never come back. Go figure that one. The next time these radicals want to protest in Scotia, they should take a moment and look around the hillsides. These areas have been clearcut three different times! The timber is so thick now it should be thinned out.
I'm always amazed at how hard the so-called timber defenders work at trying to spin the issues away from the actual concerns. Nobody suggested that logging should stop altogether. The real issue are the Heritage Trees, those older than the State of California that need protection. Reinstituting sustainable logging is a goal of all those involved with forest defense. Your spin is an obstacle to productive dialogue.
Hey Wildcard, So the issue is heritage trees? I thought it was steep and unstable slopes?No wait it's downstream effects. Or was it pestacides? Or sustainability and cut rate. No it's really endangered species. Or our culture and use practices? Damn, I can't remember which one it is today. Not that it really matters, you'll just pick the one that suits.
Wildcard,
For the life of me, I do not know where your head is. You say our spin is counter productive. To what? Take the recent t.v. ad that your group came out with. It is so unrealistic. Get the company back into private ownership and everything will be just hunkie dorie like it was before. HA!.So you tell me where are you going to find private ownership that can come up with about two billion dollars to buy the company from maxxam? With that much money, you would have another corporation buying it. And if someone did, you would have another huge loan that has to be paid. All you people are kind of light on the thinking part aren't you.
For the life of me, I do not know where your head is. You say our spin is counter productive. To what? Take the recent t.v. ad that your group came out with. It is so unrealistic. Get the company back into private ownership and everything will be just hunkie dorie like it was before. HA!.So you tell me where are you going to find private ownership that can come up with about two billion dollars to buy the company from maxxam? With that much money, you would have another corporation buying it. And if someone did, you would have another huge loan that has to be paid. All you people are kind of light on the thinking part aren't you.
The letter that was put out By EF states that PALCO is still cutting old growth? Just where do they come up with this?. If they are refering to the two trees that was ringed and delimbed, it was because of the treesitters. Stay off of private land and the trees will be safe. Also PALCO cannot saw old growth anymore. The saws have been turned into razors to shave the legs of the Humboldt honeys.
Actually, a lot of wetlands mitigation also involves the damage which is done to streams and rivers by corporations or the US government. Being a scientist myself, I have a lot of respect for good science. I also bear in mind that there are other, equally important, considerations. A lot more poetry has been written about the importance of natural wonders to the human soul than has been written about the beauty of the business tactics of large corporations.
It isn't true, because it isn't possible, that a previously clearcut area is thickly covered with 1,000-year-old redwoods.
It isn't true, because it isn't possible, that a previously clearcut area is thickly covered with 1,000-year-old redwoods.
So now CC you are a scientist. At first you told us that you worked for a scientist. I figured carrying a clipboard. But if you say that you are a scientist, how can you say that wetlands are the same as the forest. In Humboldt we do have both and I don't see rivers around so called wetlands or marshes. In the dictionary, a wetland is classified as a lowland that is saturated with moisture. Doesn't mention streams or rivers in the classification. And not all forest have streams and rivers. And what about the differences in the eco systems between the two? Just what field of a scientist are you? What I am begaining to think is that you are an armchair scientist just like the armchair Generals for the Iraq war.
How does the song go,C.C.? "your so lame ,I bet you think this site is about you, about you".
"Actually, a lot of wetlands mitigation also involves the damage which is done to streams and rivers by corporations or the US government".
_________________________________________
CC, I just had to go back and re-read your statement again, and it just hit me like 2x4. In your statement above, you make it sound like wetlands only occur if it is damaged by corporations or the Government. Are these the only types of wetlands? Corpoarate wetlands and Government wetlands? Explain please
_________________________________________
CC, I just had to go back and re-read your statement again, and it just hit me like 2x4. In your statement above, you make it sound like wetlands only occur if it is damaged by corporations or the Government. Are these the only types of wetlands? Corpoarate wetlands and Government wetlands? Explain please
Wow. You're nothing if not slow.
To the reader who claims to represent "the same old BS": Please calm down. Of course I went to school to become a scientist. It's not confusing that I worked for a scientist while I was in school, and became a scientist myself. We don't spring fully formed from the head of Zeus, you know.
And destroying public lands doesn't somehow make them the property of whoever does the destroying. Goodness! That would surely cause a revolution in property rights.
Finally, do not abandon your idea of having a meeting where everyone can come and listen to presentations and discuss the problem. You might make it a town hall meeting. It's an excellent idea, especially if you could get everyone to take a non-violence pledge beforehand.
And destroying public lands doesn't somehow make them the property of whoever does the destroying. Goodness! That would surely cause a revolution in property rights.
Finally, do not abandon your idea of having a meeting where everyone can come and listen to presentations and discuss the problem. You might make it a town hall meeting. It's an excellent idea, especially if you could get everyone to take a non-violence pledge beforehand.
To Freedom of Speech,
It's a fact that Pacific Lumber is still cutting old-growth redwoods. Does that shock you? PL is not the only company cutting old-growth, which does not enjoy any special protection under the Forest Practices Act. That's why there is a bill called the Heritage Tree Preservation Act pending right now in the California Legislature that will ban logging trees that were growing when California became a state. Many of the old-growth redwoods are over 1000 years old, and I personally counted the growth rings on the stump of a freshly cut redwood in Mendocino County that was older than 1500 years. The rings were so fine that I had to use a wire brush to bring them out and a magnifying glass to count them accurately.
It's a fact that Pacific Lumber is still cutting old-growth redwoods. Does that shock you? PL is not the only company cutting old-growth, which does not enjoy any special protection under the Forest Practices Act. That's why there is a bill called the Heritage Tree Preservation Act pending right now in the California Legislature that will ban logging trees that were growing when California became a state. Many of the old-growth redwoods are over 1000 years old, and I personally counted the growth rings on the stump of a freshly cut redwood in Mendocino County that was older than 1500 years. The rings were so fine that I had to use a wire brush to bring them out and a magnifying glass to count them accurately.
Cornered Citizen still hasn't stated any record of scientific credential, experience, or accomplishment other than having worked "for several years for a scientist whose specialty was wetlands mitigation." No mention of knowledge of slope stability, soil science, hydrology, or any of the other disciplines that foresters are mandated to consult. Also, no citation of references to substantiate "scientific" arguments. I think that reeks of phoniness. Want to talk about the UC Team review of the Freshwater papers?
The 154 year age standard in the proposed "Heritage Tree Preservation Act" is arbitrary and unworkable. It also would have the effect of providing incentive to cut trees whose status regarding that threshold age is in doubt, before some(busy)body decides that they are 154 years old based on inadequate information. The standard for needing to determine whether or not a particular tree is in fact 154 years old is not set either. In the interest of environmental protection, forestry laws should encourage longer harvest rotations, not shorter rotations as the so-called Heritage Tree Preservation Act would do. Equating the significance of a 155 year old tree with an intact stand of old growth is nonsense.
Pray tell oh Peacenik, where are these giant wonders being milled at? Especially the freshly cut redwood in Mendocino County that was older than 1500 years as you claim. Get this through you very thick head. P.L. can no longer mill old growth! The company no longer has the equipment to do this. Live with this fact and move on in life.
As I see it, when the Enviro's first hit Humboldt about thirteen years ago, they were after the headwaters. The last remaining stand of old growth. But now that the last of the big ones have been saved, they are starting to bring the age of the tree down in what they consider old growth. Even complaining about cutting second growth. It's a ploy to stop all logging altogether, to bankrupt Humboldt County and have all the working class stand in line to collect welfare like many of the protesters.
The whole point of being involved in one's community is NOT to leave all the decision-making to one person, or one corporation. You don't have to be a scientist to be involved and make a positive difference. And it's not only authors that pass legislation saving libraries, or veterinarians who help establish community animal shelters.
What we are all responsible for, is to become informed about the issues. It helps to have had some exposure to the issues beforehand, and it helps to understand scientific method, if one is going to assess some studies. But even if you haven't a clue what scientific method is, you can still think carefully about what you read.
The other important thing is to use your heart as well as your head. You don't have to have a degree for that.
What we are all responsible for, is to become informed about the issues. It helps to have had some exposure to the issues beforehand, and it helps to understand scientific method, if one is going to assess some studies. But even if you haven't a clue what scientific method is, you can still think carefully about what you read.
The other important thing is to use your heart as well as your head. You don't have to have a degree for that.
Cornered Citizen:
You're the one who laid claim to "Being a scientist myself..." and took it upon yourself to judge certain categories of scientific literature. Then when challenged to discuss concrete issues, as in the case of the UC Team reviewing the Freshwater flooding issue or the work by the scientific review panel for the Water Quality Board (both independent panels), you bail and discount the importance of scientific understanding. It is obvious that YOU "....haven't a clue what scientific method is."
You're the one who laid claim to "Being a scientist myself..." and took it upon yourself to judge certain categories of scientific literature. Then when challenged to discuss concrete issues, as in the case of the UC Team reviewing the Freshwater flooding issue or the work by the scientific review panel for the Water Quality Board (both independent panels), you bail and discount the importance of scientific understanding. It is obvious that YOU "....haven't a clue what scientific method is."
The scientific review panel and the water quality board and staff have their own idea of what the scientific method is and it is not based on good science. But personal feelings and misinformation, and they march on without really seeking the truth. The health of the watersheds in question is fine and it will improve overtime as all living things have done and will continue to do. With or without mans involvement the forests and watersheds will continue to provide clean water and fresh air for all of us living beings.
I can't say I agree with everything the WQB scientific review panel came up with, and I disagree with at least one of their main conclusions, but it does behoove us to give serious consideration to their ideas, criticisms, etc. and not discount them out of hand. I think that industry people will ultimately be doing themselves the best service if they keep their emotions in check when faced with criticism from qualified peers. Peer review is never for the thin skinned. Keep in mind that the scientific review panel and the UC team also blew some holes in the assumptions used by Leslie Reid in her modeling. They're not just out to trash industry scientists.
But Free Thinker, how can you say that? I am willing to accept results from qualified peers as you put it, but when they have just one day of onsite tour, to answer a question that should be studied for as least a couple of years and then give their recommendations after a two week disccusion, I cannot accept that. Then you have the loaded questions that WQ staff gave to panel to answer without giving either side a chance to express a challenging point of veiw. I will lower myself to that level to say the radical side didn't get the chance as well. As I look at it, this could have been an opportunity for the Enviro's to discredit P.L.'s claim and they blew it because of greed. They were afraid that what data P.L. had would blow them right out of the water or Freshwater however you want to look at it.
We need to be clear what the mission of the scientific review panel was. It was to review existing information rather than to launch new studies. Hence, the relatively short time spent in their investigation. And, as you have pointed out, there have been some blatant attempts by Water Quality staff, in collusion with our enviro friends, to manipulate the review panel and the WQ Board to their agenda by withholding or misrepresenting scientific information. Ultimately, the responsibility lies with the WQ Board to decide the merits of what the review panel came up with and how to implement it. That's what the hearing was about. That's also where it came to light that WQ staff were improperly manipulating the process. And the enviros are upset that the WQ Board isn't simply going to rubber stamp the scientific review panel's report. I commented earlier that while the panel's report is valuable it also contains some major flaws. That also seems to be the WQ Board's orientation towards the panel's report.
Sooooo, in a nutshell, we need to keep the distinctions between the WQ Board, the scientific review panel, and the WQ staff clear and not write everybody off because of staff misconduct.
Sooooo, in a nutshell, we need to keep the distinctions between the WQ Board, the scientific review panel, and the WQ staff clear and not write everybody off because of staff misconduct.
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