Palestine - Are you for justice or for a solution?

In contrast to what the ISM is doing take a look on this web sites. It is an organization set up by a prominenet Palestinians (Dr. Sari Nusiieba) who is a memeber of the palestinian legislative council and a former israeli General Ami Ayalon.

http://www.mifkad.org.il/eng/

It speaks for itself. The important goal is that both people: Palestinians and israeslis - can infulance their leaders to work for peace.

In contrast to this ISM is trying to influnace both people to hate each other more by focusing on blame instead of solutions

I think we all know what the best solution is.

A) no right of return (because it is totally unaceptible to israel)

B) No more Settlements and the strong discouragement of isolated settlements (With a longer term goal of removing them (doesnt have to be right this instant)

C) A palistinian state that has as little "surface area" as possible - but this too can happen in stages as the Israelis grow more confident in their security

And here is some opinion....
- If there are currently jewish dominated areas adjoining Israel it make be appropriate to make them part of israel - similarly with palistinian areas. matching UN sanctioned boarders or any other arbitrary definition of the two countries is not important.

D) No more suicide bombings etc. The active prosicution of Hamas by the PLO and if they fail to do so then by the israelis or some other force as an interim measure. (its best if it doesnt have to be the israelis)

E)It would be nice to see the back of sharon and arafat they are both tainted in the eyes of the opposition (rightly or wrongly).

F) Peace treaty and recognition as a state from all the arab countries. (this too can take time but the palistinians have to support it both in publicand in private).

G) an open palistinian government that doesnt say one thing in public and somthign totally differnt in private (probably some form of democracy).

The big point is - The palistinians can have their state they just have to accept that it will come slowly. The Israelis cant just go "oh here you are have a nice state.. then we will just hope you dont attack us anymore" .

Since the Palistinians are the people comming to the table with no chips so to speak (all they are offering is "give us a country and we will stop making you kill us") Then should take the lead. they need to at least reduce, the amount of suicide bombers, in a transparant manner.

It is clear that a solution along the line presented here is evetually the only way to solve the conflict.

Those who are pro-peace should foster discussions of such solution instead of placing blame on this side or that side.

Dennis Bernstein and Adam Shapiro: This comment is for you. A year long of being on the ISM list and listening to flashpoints did not made peace an inch closer - think if what you do is at all productive.

Wrongs committed against Palestinians must be righted. Israel should be forced to pay reparations to those they've screwed or allow them to return to their homes. If they refuse to do this, we here in this country must do everything in our power to force our government to stop treating Israel with tender loving care but to treat it like any other country. This is not only right, it would reduce the threat of terrorism against us which is almost entirely due to Israel's racist treatment of Palestinians and our government's support for racist, apartheid Israel.

I am not going to be sucked in to your notion of what is right or what is wrong and what is Justice.

There are many in israel and in the world in general who have good arguments that look exactly like yours with one small different: In their view the Israelis/jews are the victim and the palestinian are the one that commited the war crimes. Try tell the women who lost both her baby and her mother to a suicide bomber who choose to stand next to the gand-ma and the stroller in a cafe place in Petach Tikva that she is not a victim.

The bottom line: The palestinian and Jews have to choose - do they want to continue feeling victimized or find a solution. If they want a solution (which I a sure they do) people like you who continue the endless victimization argument are just forigners who inflame the sistuation instead of calming it and foster understanding and healing. Your choice - are you looking for solutions or looking for justice ? they are mutually explosive.

Check out those Palestinians and Israelis who look for the future instead of searching the blame of the past:

http://www.mifkad.org.il/eng/

--"I very much doubt if Gahndy and MLK would approve of the hate against Israel ISM us spreading..."

Spreading HATE??? ISM?
How? By being shot in the head...shot in the face...being crushed by a bulldozer?

How is ISM "spreading hate"? ISM members are trying desperately to defend Palestinians, but when they are murdered in the process by racist Israelis, and when Israelis then proclaim the resulting outrage this causes (which is totally justified), as "spreading hate," I'm just left at a loss of words. What do you say to that?

The ISM lies in many of their so-called reporting on the Middle east.

Clear example is Adam Shapiro telling you that "Israel will use the war on iraq to Ethnicaly cleanse the palestinians"

Enter this in google:

adam "ethnic cleansing" Iraq site:flashpoints.net

and you will get 37 such occurnces.

Of course none of this took place.

There are many other examples. The biggest lie is about "shot while protecting children" - A day before the incident took place the ISM announced they are going to raffah to obstruct the army - suddenlty when they get shot in the process they market this sad incident as "helping cghildren" - The raffah border is a known war zone not a children playground.

"Dennis: Israel used the 9/11 attacks to label all Palestinians as terrorists..

Adam: .. now a potential war with Iraq, Israel will use as a pretext to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians out of the West Bank"

Flashpoints Jan 6, 2003

The best way to defend Palestinians would be to advocate that they stop using terror. This will be the first stage to peace.

As long as Palestinians use terror, Sharon has an excuse why not to negotiate the end of the occupation.

By not advocating an end to terrorism the ISM is in fact helping Sharon.

There those who prefer to call it "Justice" there are those who prefer to call it "Truth"

It is all the same. As long it is their version of the truth or their version of justice.

Any of those people who claim to have a monopoly on "truth" and "justice" are not looking for true solutions or for understanding.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/284044.html

A West Bank military tribunal Monday afternoon sentenced each of four Palestinians who sent a suicide bomber to the Park Hotel in Netanya last Passover to 29 life sentences, one for each person they killed at the beginning of the traditional holiday Seder.

The four men - who have been convicted of providing the bomber with an explosive belt and a hiding place and videotaping him before he carried out the terrorist attack - were also sentenced to an additional 20 years each for planning an additional terror attack right afterwards.

Bombing thwarted near Kfar Sava
---------------------------------------------
Police sappers neutralized today an explosive device discovered Monday morning in the Beit Berl college near Kfar Sava, after finding a suspicious bag behind a building.

The bag had wires hanging out of it and contained a cellular phone.

Security services were searching the area for additional bombs.

In other incidents in the West Bank and Gaza, police have opened an investigation into West Bank settlers in Beit Anoun, whom they suspect of having set fire overnight Monday to three cars belonging to Palestinians.

The IDF arrested 17 suspects in the West Bank overnight, one of them found with a Kalashnikov rifle, Army Radio reported Monday.

Before dawn, troops arrested in the Nablus casbah Yasser Ahmed Halili, a Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine activist who planned to carry out a terror attack in Israel, Army Radio reported.

Troops also arrested Nidal Fakiya, a Fatah activist involved in preparing bombs, the radio reported.

The IDF also destroyed the Hebron-area house of Tanzim activist Jamal Rajoub, who was responsible for a terror attack in Ashdod last year.

In addition, Palestinians opened fire on an IDF base near Rafah in the Gaza Strip and troops returned fire, Itim reported Monday. No injuries were reported.

Hezbollah also fired artillery shells at Kiryat Shmona overnight, Army Radio reported; there were no injuries.

Now how about arresting all the Israeli soldiers who have shot Palestinian children in the head. How about arresting the Israeli soldier who shot Tom Hurndall in the head. Arrest the soldier who crushed Rachel Corrie with a bulldozer. Arrest the soldier who shot Brian Avery in the face.

Currently there are over 20 soldiers who are in jail for various violation that has to do with wrongfully hurting civilians. On every such incident there is a police investigation and a trial if needed.

There is a big difference between taking a suit case full of explosive to a kddle of hotle dining room where old people are having a saider to mistakely shoting a figure in the middle of an dark alley in an urban war zone. But for sure anyone who done something wrong he will be held responsible.

This non-dialogue again show: You continue your search for your version of "justice" instead of fostering understanding and driving toward a solution. Is that all Starhawk has thaught you - to resist and never improve the situation jsut to demand absolute (your version of) Justice

This is a link to the site of the Israeli Soldiers' Pledge of Resistance. I also read here last month that an int'l organization of Orthodox Jews (begun in the '30's) burned Israeli flags worldwide on Purim to denounce Sharon's policies and their belief that the Zionist experiment was flawed from the onset...and that Zionism is not equivalent to Judaism.


http://www.seruv.org.il/defaulteng.asp

In light of your comments, I have some questions:

1. You say that ISM is promoting hate through its perspective about events in Israel and the West Bank, yet do not state that they have engaged in any violent activities. Does this promotion of "hate" justify using violent force against non-violent people?

2. One ISM activist has been killed, and two others very seriously wounded. One was killed trying to stop the IDF from bulldozing a home. Do you think it was appropriate for the IDP to proceed to run over Rachel Corrie with a bulldozer instead of stopping when it was apparent that ISM people were at the scene?

3. In the most recent incident, a sniper deliberately shot an ISM activist in the head while trying, by several accounts (other than yours), to remove a women and her children from a very dangerous area. Do you think that this was appropriate? Do you think that punishment of the soldier who did this is warranted?

4. You attack Adam Shapiro for lying about Israel's intentions to "transfer" Palestinians in response to a war with Iraq. If he was encountered in the West Bank by the IDF, is such a statement considered hateful enough to justify shooting him? And, is it also hate when extremist members of Sharon's cabinet, and other Jews, advocate "transfer"? If not, why?

5. A significant numbers of Israelis are refusing to serve in the IDF in the occupied territories, saying things very similar to things said by ISM activists. Do you consider their perspective legitimate or illegitimate?

6. You emphasize how violent Raffah is. If so, why doesn't the IDF leave it (and the rest of the occupied territories) and defend Israel from the other side of the green line, as advocated by some refuseniks? If Palestinians were occupying areas with an overwhelmingly Jewish majority, and using force that killed significant numbers of them, do you think the response would be violent or non-violent?

7. Is it appropriate to deny Palestinians a right of return, while permitting immigration of Jews from all around the world to Israel and the occupied territories. If so, why? If so, explain how such an immigration policy is consistent with the ideals of a modern democracy.

8. You seem to be advocating a bottom up, grassroots dialogue as a means of deescalating the violence, and moving towards a solution, which is certainly laudable, and consistent with my political philosophy. Do you see such an effort as truly open, or would you exclude non-violent Palestinians who espouse views similar to the ISM? If anyone would be excluded on this basis, how would this effort remain credible?

9. Why should anyone believe that Israel, or a significant part of the Israeli public supports a two state solution, or anything other than continued occupation and settlement when it increaes its military presence, renders the occupied territories ungovernable and continues to expand settlements consistent with policies established in the late 1970s? Given Ariel Sharon's history and policies, why should I interpret his recent election victory to anything other than Israeli public support for the colonial policy of continuing expansion of Israel into the occupied territories?

Dear RWF,
Are you an attorney? You have a very good set of questions – this is your version of “When have you stopped beating your wife”. In your case you ask me to “Justify why the IDF is deliberately shooting people like Adam Shapiro”

I disagree with your basic assumption. There is no evidence that the IDF is deliberately targeting anyone but the terrorists.

“9. Why should anyone believe that Israel, or a significant part of the Israeli public supports a two state solution?”

Because every opinion poll says so. Because Israel has already left the Palestinians towns back in 1994 and was forced to return only after the two years of suicide bombings originated from there. Because it was only barak failure to reach a deal with Arafat that brought the violence against Israel that cause Sharon to be elected.

I call on all peace loving people: call on Palestinians to end the violence so that together we can challenge Sharon policies.

“8. You seem to be advocating a bottom up, grassroots dialogue as a means of deescalating the violence, and moving towards a solution, which is certainly laudable, and consistent with my political philosophy. Do you see such an effort as truly open, or would you exclude non-violent Palestinians who espouse views similar to the ISM? If anyone would be excluded on this basis, how would this effort remain credible?”

You make assumption – I never said that. EVERYONE is welcome to join the grass root effort. Together Israelis and Palestinians should show our leaders the way from war to peace. Dialogue, open Dialogue is the only credible way to peace.

I disagree with both Sharon and Arafat but I think everyone - including Sharon and Arafat (or who ever the Palestinian designate) - should open up and participate in the dialogue.

About Arafat he once said: “ I killed for my country – so why would you expect that would not lie for my country”

This reminded me of what Jagai Singh said: “ I do not recognize the state of Israel Legal authority so it is OK to lie to the Israeli judge” - Indeed Singh lied and also broke his promise to the judge that allowed him entry into Israel.

Both the terrorists and the ISM believe strongly in the just of their cause. In the name of such cause all methods are – in their mind – legitimate. The only issue is not right or wrong – it is only how can these action be seen in the eyes of western media consumer.

The ISM uses mostly lies to help the Palestinian cause of destroying Israel – even if some of it’s naïve members do not even know what the organization is up to – the ISM is one of the propaganda arms of the Palestinians leadership.

When they (the propagdenists) thought that the Palestinian story is being ignored by the media (due to the war on Iraq) they stepped up the pressure on Israel by sending their “non-violent” troops to more confrontations with the IDF and eventually they got what they wanted – a dead westerner is something that grabbed media attention yet again.

In Raffah the Palestinians have built a large network of explosive smuggling tunnels under the border to Egypt.

To stop the smuggling Israel had build a wall that stretches underground as well – this wall sit directly on the border – a border that no one is supposed to cross (there is a border crossing point not far from the wall for those who want to go to Egypt)

Two organizations have challenged this wall:
- The local Palestinian warlords are using civilians as human shields and everyday shot at the Israelis soldiers who are building the wall. When the IDF is forced to return fire sometimes – unintentlly – civilians do get in the line of fire.

- The ISM (see their April 10 announcement) has sent large number of volunteers (Like the British kid who just finished a tour of Iraq as human shield) to challenge the IDF construction of what the ISM call: “IRON WALL”.

This is despite that it is absolutely within Israel right, according to international law – to build whatever border fence Israel needs in order to guard the border with Egypt from the smugglers.

I hope this clarify the issue but I’ll still answer your cleverly worded questions.


1. It is true that ISM promote Hate. This is seen in Rachel Corie hateful flag burning Photo also the ISM gives the Palestinian a support that their method of struggle is the right one. If the ISM would like to helpful they would first tell the Palestinians: “If you want international help - stop using terror against Israeli civilians” By landing support to the Palestinians terror tactics ISM become a participant to this crime. Israel takes strong action against the terror operation and people who choose to stand in the line of fire may get hurt.

2. I think the Bulldozer operator is stupid. Rachel Corie and the ISM moved in front of his 2MPH machine everywhere he went – he should have stopped what he was doing under these conditions. He said in a TV interview that he was not destroying a home but leveling an area in which terrorists hiding in the terrain were using to shoot the IDF from. He wanted to continue making the area hider to hide and at some point did not saw the ISM in front of him so he continued. I think he is stupid and he should have realized that she may have fallen to a place he could not see her.

3 I think the incident should be investigated. I do not buy the ISM account – these are the same people who claimed that the Hammas terrorists in the nativity Church are civilians seeking shelter. We have seen when the nativity issue was resolved who were the Hammas people inside. The ISM clearly know to manipulate the western media: Would story get so much attention if the truth would be reported: “ISM mistakenly shot while obstructing/demonstrating against the building of a border fence”

4. Adam Shapiro lied many times. His lies on flashpoints are the easiest one to show that he is lying since Dennis Bernstein is so diluted by “the cause” that he have lies on his program everyday. To your question: No I do not think it is justify to shot Adam for his lies and to the best of my knowledge he was not shot at – you yourself do not claim he was shot – you just ask me “Is it justified to shot him for lying” Clearly a “when did you stop beating your wife” type of question.

5. The refusing phenomena in Israel is a marginal one. Most people realize that Israel is under terror attacks so they volunteer to go and protect our civilians. When terrorist would be exploding in the places your kids go to eat pizza – would you not try to protect them ?

6. I favor a political solution by which IDF would leave raffah and all other Palestinian areas. This solution has to be done in the context of a peace agreement in which Palestinians and their supporters denounce all violence. There is no reason for the IDF to be in Palestinian areas other then to catch terrorists (I think the settlements are a mistake Israel is perpetuating) – As long as the raffah border is used to smuggling explosives Israel has no alternative but to prevent it. Once a suicide bomber is on his way with the explosive belt nothing can be done – he must be stopped at the source before he goes on a mission.

7. Palestinians should have right of return to the Palestinians state. Jews should have the same right – to come to Israel. Each country (Israel and Palestine) should be free to set it’s own immigration policy – nothing undemocratic about it.