RACHEL CORRIE CONTINGENT

facism???? spelling does seem to be a problem for trolls.

"facism???? spelling does seem to be a problem for trolls."

So now activists want to discriminate against people who can't spell perfectly. Wow, that would leave a lot of poor people and immigrants out of the debate. How sad that such open minded people judge people on such a shallow level. Not everyone goes to posh "progressive" schools but I suppose activists have never really thought too much about that.

I'm a Jew and an anti-Zionist. I oppose all forms of anti-semitism, anti-arabism included (for the Arabs are a semitic people too). When Zionism started, all our people wanted was their own state in an EMPTY land. Then chauvinists took the movement from within and made "damn everyone else" its slogan. Western gulity conscience about Holocaust made UN give Palestinian Jews half the land when they where one fourth of the population. Of course, the Arabs would not have it, so we defeated them in battlefield and swallowed the whole territory. Now Palestinians are our second-class cheap labor force, as opressed as Afro-Americans in the 50's and Bantuis under Apartheid. Problem is, we never managed to make them quit their land. Maybe the Jews should drive the Palestinians into the sea... Well, I'm sure that Rachel WOULD wear a kaffyeh (so do I) for it's not a terrorist symbol, nor every Jew in the world is a damn Zionist racist.

What BART station do I get off at to get to Grove and Larkin? Will we be meeting up with the main march?

Rachael was killed trying to prevent the IDF from legally destroying the house of someone who killed Israeli children in their sleep.

Why do you fools support terrorists?

The house that Rachel was trying to protect was that of a doctor, it was NOT set to be demolished because of any supposed link to militants. Only because it lies within 100 metres of the new border wall, currently in construction.

I don't take BART but it's the one that goes to the Civic Center / City Hall, which is where the rally starts.

If you would take the time to find out the truth about apartheid Israel and the slow genocide and ethnic cleansing that has been going on there since 1948 when Israel was immorally created by European UN countries giving away Arab that was not theirs to give away in the first place to murderous Eastern European Zionist Jewish Supremicists, then you would understand why people like Rachel Corrie and millions around the world want justice for the Palestinian people. All you have to do is take the time to find out the truth. You can start here at http://www.cactus48.com or http://www.exposingisraeliapartheid.com or http://www.whatreallyhappened.com or http://www.netureikarta.org or http://www.electronicintifada.net

Unfortunately, once someone understands the truth about US sponsored Israel's ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian, it tends to make one extremely angry-- even angry enough to burn the US flag or better yet, the racist Israeli flag! We won't be doing that at the rally however much we might feel like it. However the Ultra Orthodox Jews of the Neturei Karta DO burn the Israeli flag every year in demonstrations in New York, London and Jerusalem to show their feelings about Israel and Zionism.

"However the Ultra Orthodox Jews of the Neturei Karta DO burn the Israeli flag every year in demonstrations in New York, London and Jerusalem to show their feelings about Israel and Zionism. "

And Orthodox Jews every bit as Ultra also serve on the Israeli Knesset. Ever hear of the NRP, the National Religious Party? Ever hear of Shas? They're such a big bloc in Israel that there's been a counterreaction. The big gainer in the most recent election was a secular party named Shinui, whose _entire platform_ was an intent to reduce the influence of the ultra-Orthodox over lawmaking.

So I have to laugh whenever Windy Wendy trots out the Neturai Karta as if they're somehow The Truth rather than just another sect -- a small but self-promoting one -- within traditional Judaism. And then ignores all the ultra-Orthodox who have no trouble at all with Zionism.

The motive is pretty obvious. Windy Wendy would _like_ to pretend that anti-Zionism and antisemitism are completely unrelated, and that Zionism is just some late aberration in the history of Jewish historical belief. That's why she has to try to set up Zionism and Jewish theology as if they were opposing, mutually exclusive forces. They aren't. There are religious Zionists, secular Zionists, religious non-Zionists, secular non-Zionists -- but that's only reality, and reality confuses Windy Wendy, so she just throws out the parts she can't handle.

@%<

The two other who were shot, maybe could also be mentioned somehow, if a banner is being made?

Maybe someone could blow up the this picture and have it as a sign - http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/04/1599022_comment.php#1599057

gehrig,

If the "motive" is so obvious, you fail to make your case, whatever that may be.

You state:

"The motive is pretty obvious. Windy Wendy would _like_ to pretend that anti-Zionism and antisemitism are completely unrelated, and that Zionism is just some late aberration in the history of Jewish historical belief.

That's why she has to try to set up Zionism and Jewish theology as if they were opposing, mutually exclusive forces. They aren't. There are religious Zionists, secular Zionists, religious non-Zionists, secular non-Zionists -- but that's only reality, and reality confuses Windy Wendy, so she just throws out the parts she can't handle. "

First you say that "Wendy" fails to differentiate between anti-zionism and anti-semitism (indirectly calling her/him a Jew hater) yet later you contradict your claim saying that there are such things as Jewish non-zionists. Are you still repeating the tired, ignorant claim that all Jews against zionism are self-haters? All anti-zionists are anti-Israeli?

Then you claim round-the-way that zionism isn't an aberration of Jewish theology yet prove that such things are possible with your mention of the deep divisions just in the political parties of Israel. If it is possible for the Shinnui party to develop out of the Jewish tradition in reaction to religious fundamentalism, isn't it possible for something as rotten as Zionism to develop out of Jewish political pluralism also?

Number one, it isn't the manifest destiny of the Jewish people to carry out the zionist program to catestrophic infinity. Number two, the largest number of zionists, in the US at least, aren't even Jewish, they're fundamentalist Christians.

Please post again when you can back up you claims a little better. If you're going to be speech writing for Sharon, you'll have to have a better game plan.

You're having trouble following my argument because you're trying to overcompartmentalize. I'm not talking equations but correlations. Anti-Zionism isn't antisemitism, but it isn't _not_ antisemitism either; you have to take things on a case-by-case basis. The pro-Palestinian NGOs at the UN Conference on Racism in Durban weren't being antisemitic when they sold books criticizing Israeli policy in the Exhibitors Tent; but another book they were selling in the name of anti-Zionism was _Protocols of the Elders of Zion_. You have to take things case-by-case if you have any hope of understanding it.

Anti-Zionism and antisemitism are separate ideas, but they're statistically correlated. If you run into an antisemite -- and that's not so hard to do in anonymous forums like this one or Usenet -- then there's a better than average change that that person is also going to be anti-Zionist. But -- and here's the first place that all-or-nothing thinking could trip a person up -- it's a mistake to say that one must be a full-fledged swastika-kissing goosestepper in order to be an antisemite. Like all forms of racism, there's a continuum. And just as there are racists who honestly believe they _aren't_, and are surprised to discover the degree to which their thinking really is shaped by racial stereotypes, there are people whose thinking on the Mideast is also shaped -- to some degree -- by antisemitic stereotypes.

Now, Windy Wendy is a good example. She insists that she hasn't got an antisemitic bone in her body. Yet she has posted here that the little "U" symbol on groceries -- the hechsher, marking the food as kosher -- is really part of a grand Jewish shakedown of every American who buys food in the the grocery store, that it's a "Kosher Tax" that The Jewish Powers That Be force Jew and non-Jew alike to pay -- and which, she went on, was being used to underwrite "the Zionist agenda."

(She's also written about how awful Zionist Jews have been ever since Biblical times. Well, sorry, if you've got a problem against Zionist Jews since Biblical times, it isn't Zionist Jews you have trouble with, it's just Jews.)

So when Windy Wendy -- who probably also wrote the base article in this thread, judging from certain prose mannerisms -- tells you that she's perfectly pure and untainted, and that calling her an antisemite is just a Nefarious Zionist Plot .... well, that's what she wants to believe, but her trail is pretty clear.

So a lot of what you seem to think is contradictory -- antisemitism not being anti-Zionism but not not being anti-Zionism either, that kind of thing -- has to do with your attempt to try to put things into all-or-nothing categories, when you and I both know that political history is far more complicated than that.

And here's a big hint: not all Zionists think alike. Many many Zionists voted against Sharon; many many Zionists want Israel to pull out of the West Bank immediately; many many Zionists want nothing to do with American doomsday evangelicals, and so on.

Or is it that all Zionists think alike? Seen one, ya seen 'em all? They're Borg?

@%<

Yet all Zionists believe in their own supremacy as God's sole chosen people and the claim that modern day Palestine belongs to them and them only.

All Zionist believe in a land for Jews and Jews only because they believe as Jews they will never be spiritually and culturally strong enough to live amongst non-Jews, so they must have a "homeland". This comes even in the face of reality that the "homeland" of Ashkenazi Jews is in Europe, the Sephardic Jews in Spain and the middle east, the Yemeni Jews in Yemen, the Falasha in Africa, and the recently "discovered" Peruvian Jews....well that just really highlights the insanity of this whole "Israel is the homeland of the Jews" crap.

Basically with Zionism, all Zionism, what you have is "white supremacy" with an inferiority complex. You can turn up John Zorn's Masada high enough to drown out the facts, but behind the klezmer music they are still there.

Get that, Dr. Lerner?

"Yet all Zionists believe in their own supremacy as God's sole chosen people and the claim that modern day Palestine belongs to them and them only."

Well, thanks for making my point for me again. No, this is not what all Zionists believe. Not by a long shot. This is what anti-Zionists _want_ you to think all Zionists believe, because they make a better bogeyman that way. And you've bought the whole bill of goods.

And the casual way this stereotype is bandied around places like Indybay is why, for the most part, the only Zionists you get here are the ones who come to insult you, because you've already preemptively driven any moderate ones off with your blanket stereotype.

That's where listening to Rabbi Lerner could have helped you, but no, no, no, you were all too clever and sophisticated for that, my my my, aren't we the knowledgeable ones.

I on the other hand -- well, call me Don Quixote, but I think that there are enough people in the progressive movement with enough intelligence and sensitivity to the exploitation of ethnic codewords to make it worthwhile to try to raise some consciousnesses on the issue of antisemitic rhetoric -- mostly unintentional -- and anti-Zionist rhetoric that resembles it a little too closely for comfort.

But as long as you grip that idea that Zionism = Sharon so tightly that your fingers turn white, you will be unable to understand what's going on in Israeli politics, let alone the Mideast as a whole. And it will be because of your oversimplifications that you just won't be able to get it.

@%<

I would appreciate it if you would stop calling Wendy "Windy Wendy." How would you like it if people called you "Greasy Gehrig?" Would that add to the debate?

If you've got a personal issue with Wendy, please keep it to yourself.

"Well, thanks for making my point for me again. No, this is not what all Zionists believe. Not by a long shot. This is what anti-Zionists _want_ you to think all Zionists believe, because they make a better bogeyman that way. And you've bought the whole bill of goods."

This may not be what YOU believe, but to say this isn't what is at the core of Zionism is a flat out lie.

Stop lying and owe up to the truth about Zionism and your embracement of it.

You need to read "The Jewish State" by Theodor Herzl in case you have any doubts on what Zionism truly is. Folks like you, Michael Lerner, and Amos Oz are like smokers who think by going to American Spirits from GPC menthols they are improving their health.

Windy Wendy is perfectly free to call me Geeky Gehrig, as she has in the past. The difference being that I sign all of my posts with my own name, and Windy Wendy somehow is too ashamed to do that.

@%<

This is wonderful. You're doing a really terrific imitation of someone with his fingers jammed so far into his ears that he can touch his fingertips togther. "Don't tell me what all the ZIonists _you_ know (and I don't) think, you Zionist -- _I'll_ tell you what you really think." Very impressive.

I know lotsa Zionists, and they're all over the spectrum. Even a quick look at the number of political parties that have representation in the Knesset will confirm that. But, no no no, that would go against your dogma that all Zionists think alike, and we can't have that, can we -- otherwise they lose their purpose as your all-purpose villain.

But "me again" sez -- like Chico sez to Margaret Dumont in _Duck Soup_: "who ya gonna believe, me or your own eyes?" He claims to "know" the "core" of Zionism -- presumably with the same X-ray vision he uses to conclude (erroneously) that I'm a Sharon supporter. Forgive me for not being impressed.

And this is just a riot. Because I (like many many others) don't match _your_ stereotype of what The Zionist believes -- or rather what you've been fed about what The Zionist believes -- then your solution is to turn around and tell me _I'm_ the one in denial.

Wonderful!

@%<

Maybe they can be kept on a thread debating Zionism so other threads can actually discuss other issues? Yeah this thread is about a death in Israel but does every thread have to turn into a debate on Zionism? Even the threadsabout Israel get clogged with this stuff when people may have first hand knowledge of whats going on and can post that...most of these posts just seem to get in the way and go nowhere...its always the same argument on both sides...just read a thread from a year ago and one today and there isnt a difference so Im in favor of hiding all of it (or restricting it to a single thread)

Gehrig,

You dodge the subject and the points I make because you have no rational retort.

I wonder if this is your way to distance your sacrosanct belief in Zionist ideology and your human instinct that knows Rachel Corrie and many like her are murdered by the former. You can try to distance your head from your heart like so many Israelis and Zionists do, but in the end you're just as guilty as those "only following orders".

And as long as we're throwing out movie recomendations, you know as I do there are no shortage of holocaust movies out there. Maybe some of you Zionist apologists can actually learn from them how to stop human suffering rather than learn how to perpetuate it from the monsters who heaped it upon the Jews, Romani, Homosexuals, Communists, and other enemies of the Nazi regime.

I guess now you're going to shed crocadile tears cause I brought up the holocaust and the Nazis in relation to Zionism.

I can give you a lot of info. First hand knowledge about Israel. I live in israel.

Just today I have been inside the Old city of jerusalem in an area that today no jews dare go there.

The problem here the editors here seem to remove my posts - for some time they banned me and I could not post anything (until I changed my IP address)

If you want honest discussion do not ban anyone but know what to relate to. For a civilized discussion I would chalnge anyone here to start by trying to understand what is Zionism.

BTW, my viwes are to the left of most israelis however they seem to be labled "right wing" by some of the editors in SF indy - this by itself should show you how almost impossible is a dialogue between the Indy/progressive people who for them every israel - even those who support a palestinian state like I do - are labled racist and Sharonists

"You dodge the subject and the points I make because you have no rational retort."

Not very good at this, are you. Read what I wrote again. It was a direct reply to your oversimplifications. Increase the font size if you need to. But I don't expect you too -- it's just too important for you to hang on to that "All Zionists are alike, I know Zionism better than Zionists do" bit for you to acknowledge it.

Remember, your comment -- when I first said some stuff that contradicted your stereotype of What Thuh Zionist Thinks -- was that "all Zionists think ...." followed by a lot of crap. When I showed you that wasn't true, your response was to tell me that _I_ didn't think what I thought (!), that you knew what I thought better than I do (!), that your stereotype was right and my personal experience was wrong (!).

You'll pardon me if I'm not falling all over myself applauding your failed attempt at clairvoyance (not to mention your celebration of yous stereotype of The Zionist).

So, in summary, here's the conversation so far:

Me: Not all Zionists think alike.

You: All Zionists think alike. You think X.

Me: I'm a Zionist and, no, I _don't_ think X.

You: You're a Zionist and you think X.

Me: No, I'm a Zionist and I don't think X and neither do lots of other Zionists, because not all Zionists think alike.

You: Don't change the subject. All Zionists think X. I am right and reality is wrong.

Torquemada would be proud of your steadfastness in the face of heresy.

Incidentally, I'm not going to claim that I _know_ Roger Ebert, but I have bumped into him a few times at his old stomping grounds, and I once while we were waiting at an ATM I gave him an anecdote about Harpo Marx that he repeated from the podium at his film festival the next day. He'll be in town again from the 23rd to the 26th, so if I see him I'll tell him you said hi -- and that you think he thinks X, no matter what he thinks he thinks.

@%<

Ender, do you serve the occupation?

"I can give you a lot of info. First hand knowledge about Israel. I live in israel."

Then maybe you can pass on more information about something that was mentioned in passing here a few days ago. A poster mentioned that, about a week ago, Channel Two showed some footage of the Rachel Corrie incident which showed more clearly what happened and which apparently exonerated the bulldozer driver, who's now back on duty. What was it they showed?

@%<

I also saw the story on Israel Ch2
It had two parts:
- Photos shot by Channel 2 investigative reporter after Rachel death.
- A video taken by the Israeli army during the time Rachel Corrie was run over.

The IDF video was shot by a looking-post which was focusing on on the explosive smuggling activity on the Raffah border itself so they did not focus at the bulldozer at the time of the incident – but there is a recording of what the driver and the looking post are saying over the IDF communication immediately after Rachel was hurt. There is also long panning from their focus on the border to the bulldozer after the Radio report came in that rachel was hurt but this is after the fact showing Rachel and the Bolduzer few meters behind her.

My conclusion from the photos and interview with the driver:

The driver is an idiot but not an intentional killer. If he is criminally idiot I cannot tell – you will need a law professional to decide.

The driver was driving 2 miles pre hour, everywhere he went Rachel and ISMers climbed on the mound of dirt created by his bulldozer. They were playing this cat and mouse game for hours. At some point he did not saw them and advanced. He noticed something is wrong when he saw the other ISM where running to him) so he backed off and Radioed to the looking post: I may have hit someone. (the driver said this in Hebrew and he used the Hebrew word for a male not female – from this it seems that he did not know who he hit) After he backed off Rachel was found between the two chains of the bulldozer (This was seen from the ISM photo and the IDF video) -. So he was not driving ON her and she was hit by either his blade or more likely fell as she was climbing the dirt mound he created.

Like I tell my kids: I want you to be brave but you'll have to watch carefully when bravery ends and stupidity starts.

The driver on the other hand is just stupid – no bravery involved.

Ch 2 also fillmed from within a moving D-9 – clearly not much visibility there. The D-9 is very fortified and slow. It is impossible to see what is directly I front of the vehicle.

One thing that interests me is why the army did not just remove the protesters from the scene. The army officer in charge said they did try to use tear gas but it was windy and evaporated quickly. To the question why they did not went out of their APC and arrested the protestors they answered: Raffah is full of snipers who are just waiting for us to get out of our vehicles. When any soldier set foot outside an APC he is immediately shot at.

While I am not a soldier I have a person that work with me that served in Raffah. He confirmed that this is the case. The place is full of snipers: There is constant explosive smuggling operation going on and the Palestinian snipers are trying to prevent the IDF from excavating the tunnels.

What troubled me in the ISM report is that they never mention the explosive smuggling operation, the Palestinian snipers that operate behind their back. Sure the ISMers are brave but they do not tell the truth and the whole truth.

Your question show that you already fell for the myth that all Israelis or all Zionist or all Jews (call us by what ever name you like) are occuopires.

The answer is no. I take part in anti Sharon activities and have been a peace activist for many years.

"The driver was driving 2 miles pre hour, everywhere he went Rachel and ISMers climbed on the mound of dirt created by his bulldozer. They were playing this cat and mouse game for hours. At some point he did not saw them and advanced. He noticed something is wrong when he saw the other ISM where running to him) so he backed off and Radioed to the looking post: I may have hit someone. (the driver said this in Hebrew and he used the Hebrew word for a male not female – from this it seems that he did not know who he hit)"

Thanks -- I wasn't able to find any reference to this in the American press.

My sense is that the ISMers probably have their hearts in the right place but are in way over their heads, and either don't understand the true context of what they're doing or just don't care because they're having too much fun playing rebel hero.

@%<

Soory for my broken english. Hope you could make sense of my description. Check out this page:

http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/04/1600115.php

http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/04/1600115.php