BLACK BLOC: Confront Pro-War "Freepers" As They Attempt To Disrupt M15 Anti-War

they were there last time, and it was a strange effect because more people participate with their internet chat thread than actually showed up, and usually the opposite happens for liberals/leftists where far more show up than discuss on the internet. They served their function by requiring about 20 officers to stand around 24 freepers, which ended up leaving the south side of market street near Abercrombie and fitch unguarded when some guy decided to throw a rock at it. Hey - we can go on their site again and collect their plans and funny comments - it's easy to do.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/859990/posts

day after war starts (homophobic):
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/856296/posts

I have a V8 + 4WD

I don't brake for protestors.


67 posted on 03/03/2003 10:22 PM PST by The KG9 Kid

Good! That means more businesses moving to Texas

Yep, our lefties are somewhat better behaved out here. Better for bid'ness and domestic tranquility, I suppose, but less opportunity for good, clean fun. (Tossed a baseball bat in the trunk anyway. Always better to be prepared.)


69 posted on 03/03/2003 10:35 PM PST by Stultis

One of these days the sane people will have had enough and you will see vigilante committees waiting for the scumbags to arrive. At the first sign of disruption civilized people will rise up to protect their turf. It has'nt happened yet, but it will.


71 posted on 03/03/2003 10:56 PM PST by KnutCase

lmbo. Oh, i think that even ol' Abe would overlook the Constitution if they'd do us that favor. Terrible of me, i suppose, but, i find myself occasionally fantasizing that the reverberations of these loud-mouthed, I-hate-America crew would shift the plates beneath them, and that they would be buried in their next earthquake.


76 posted on 03/04/2003 12:54 AM PST by DontMessWithMyCountry (It's serious business being an American in America these days.)

To: MikalM

Breaking point has been reached


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No more cute talk, SMASH THEM IN THE FACE WITH A BRICK if they commit treason. The hippies, commies, tree-huggers, UN-lovers, socialists, DemocRats, race-pimps, and Euro-trash need to be flushed like a week-old turd.

Better dead than Red, baby!

78 posted on 03/04/2003 3:12 AM PST by oioiman

I plan on being a "human shield" if these idiots dare throw one rock at the glass windows of our business' building or block the entrances so our clients cannot get in.

They can't mess with Willie's business tax revenues. The union thugs will trample them.


81 posted on 03/04/2003 5:00 AM PST by sf4dubya (help. i'm surrounded by liberals.)

I AM NOT advocating violence, but when war breaks out, and these "demonstrators" begin activities that DIRECTLY put US forces in jeopardy, and some even begin to call for the deaths of US soldiers, then how long will it be before some US military veteran, the son, daughter or widow of a KIA or someone else "loses control" of their car (read "car" as 3500 pound bullet) as they drive past one os these demonstrations.

Of course, the demonstrators would turn out even more punks, but then it might happen again. About the third "accident", these stupid leftist dopers would realize these accidents are no accident, and we would have no more demonstrations....

At the beginning of the O.J. trial, Johnnie Cochran said, "Give me one Black lady on that jury and he walks."

Give me one combat arms vet, sea sailor or Marine on this jury, and the "overwhelmed veteran" walks!


82 posted on 03/04/2003 5:28 AM PST by MindBender26 (.....and for more news as it happens...stay tuned to your local FReeper station....)

High power slingshots (the really good kind with the wrist support, etc.,) shooting ice cubes from local rooftops are very nasty!

Silent, non-lethal, hurts like hell, "ammunition" melts away, 5 shots into the crowd, in 15 seconds, then disappear to another window, stairwell, etc., 4 more shots, move, 4 more shots. Watch out for sun reflections off cubes. Works best at night, dusk. (re: rooftops, watch out for airborne observation, cameras)


83 posted on 03/04/2003 5:34 AM PST by MindBender26 (.....and for more news as it happens...stay tuned to your local FReeper station....)

Corks at hole sale now thats funny,what will they do without fudge bars?


85 posted on 03/04/2003 5:41 AM PST by Vaduz

Shutting down San Francisco seems like a gift to me!


88 posted on 03/04/2003 6:14 AM PST by OldFriend
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To: MikalM

Treason is the season. How long will the American people put up with this crap. It is time to shut these people up by force, on the streets all across America.


"...engaging in economic sabotage or domestic terrorism during a war ahould get them thrown into prison."

Not enough prison beds... I guess we'll just have to shoot the queer little commies.(sarcasm)


96 posted on 03/04/2003 7:10 AM PST by wcbtinman

Anti-war activists plan San Francisco shutdown if war breaks out

Won't that be a twofer?

would I be allowed to run the beatniks over?


108 posted on 03/04/2003 4:06 PM PST by demosthenes the elder (scum will never cease to be scum - why must that be explained to anyone?)

I think that these raggedy Reds forget who owns most the light airplanes in this country, who runs the small job machine-shops, who knows how to install fuel injectors or atomizers on odd equipment, who pilots crop-dusters, and who devoutly love this Republic and who are getting VERY tired of them and their stinking ilk...
(get my drift?)
We are a patient lot, but patience in the end is always finite... They should beware our wrath, lest they rouse it to flame.
I suspect Iraqi/Al Quada terrrists will be looking for targets of opportunity exhibiting characteristics to include:

Large population centers.

Cities with Name recognition.

Large crowds in open spaces exposed to atmospheric conditions.

Congested transportation networks surround the area impeding movement into or away from a potential target area.

Locations with association of ungodly behavior.

Statement of matyrdom to be continued by others witnessing the event.

A target which has intense media involvement to emphasize groundswell reporting of terror naturally inspired by the media infrastructure.

Come to think about it, advertising one is going to close down San Francisco upon commencement of war by inducing traffic jams and causing public exposure just might be the recipe for a terrorist act looking for a place to happen.

Who volunteers to infiltrate the freeper demo, pretend to be one of them, make friends, and gather intelligence? It would be really nice to know, for example, the home addresses and license plate numbers of the individuals who harrass SF-IMC by posting crap and spam here. Some SF-IMC supporters would pobably like to pay them a visit.

Freepers are irrelevant. Why does anybody bother with this small group of right-wing extremists?

It seems quite clear that in the Freeper "Threats of Violence" post (above) "demosthenes the elder" is threatening to fly a plane over the next SF peace march, crop-dust the crowd with something and make it look like "Iraqi/Al Queda terrrists" did it.

AP concluded their idiotic article on peace demos (which is titled 'Activists Plan Stong Anti-War Strategy,' but then goes on to talk mainly about how peace activists have to concede they can't stop the war) with a quote from a Free Republic person -

"For his part, Doug Dixon, an activist who has joined counter-demonstrations to back the drive toward war, shrugs off the peace movement as "pretty irrelevant." Dixon, a Houston-based member of the conservative grass-roots group Free Republic, believes the anti-war movement is encouraging Saddam Hussein.

"I'm certain he's watching," Dixon said."
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0309-03.htm

I called AP to complain - why are they citing opinions to conclude their articles with from a group of extremists who consistently advocate physical violence on their website postings, and max out in numbers of less than 50 people, if any at all, at demos of 50,000 and more? And here's this guy saying the movement is irrelevant, but somehow it's also just relevant enough to help Saddam. What an idiot.

APs MAIN NUMBER
212-621-1500
they fwd you to a comment line.

Is the making of terrorist threats not a felony?

>Is the making of terrorist threats not a felony?

It would have to be proven that the individual or individuals had the capacity to carry out their threats, typically an impossible case to make without that person or persons having documented prior offenses and some type of documentation they had plans to make good on their threats. Mere words are not enough. Capacity is the key. If a person with no arms or legs is shouting that he is going to walk over and kick your ass, while his words may be threatening, the capacity for him to carry out his threats is non-existant.

maybe the black bloc folks should have many fake dead babies (Paper dolls?), with red stains and wrapped in bundles on hand, and also a ton of flowers. People can walk up to the freepers, give them babies and flowers and that'll perhaps get on tv.

Hopefully black bloc folks will not lose their cool. Ignoring the freeper goons or simply having appropriate signage addressing the typical "So Dom Lovers" stuff might be the best thing to do. Even if the freepers literally attack physically (let them be seen as the freaks that they are -- which will be accomplished if they attack and there's no physical response)

why don't we occupy their publicized location before they get there?
"Grassy Knoll--on the corner of Carlton B. Goodlett Place and McAllister"

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/859990/posts

oh, what a fine day it is today. both osama bin laden and saddam hussein are in the crosshairs!!

it seems everyone has a suggestion for the black bloc.

what the fuck? do you think BBers are your movement cops? gosh, i hate those right-wingers, i wish the black bloc would go beat 'em up.

BB doesnt attack people. get that through your heads, ok?

i don't know about other BBers, but i sure as hell dont bring flowers to a demonstration. that's for chickenshit berkeleyites to show how much 'love' they have.

all of you with all your creative ideas -- GO OUT AND DO THEM .

and if you are up for actually STOPPING THIS WAR then get out your black hoodie and a bandana. put together your affinity group, and then black bloc the hell out of wherever you are.

freepers are insignificant. they daydream about gassing us and putting us in camps, but that's all it is since most of them are old men incapacitated by enlarged prostates.

*Follow the fascists to their cars.
*Get their license plates.
*Telephone a friend with the license plate numbers
*Position yourself in front and behind their cars
*Scream and cause a commotion--get witnesses
*Have the friend report that they hit you and fled the scene.
*Have the friend reprt to police about their ominous threats to hit anti-war pedestrians with cars...

>>>oh, what a fine day it is today. both osama bin laden and saddam hussein are in the crosshairs!!<<<

Also "in the crosshairs":
...Millions of Iraqi Civilians.
The administrations "Shock and Awe" plan (more bombs on Baghdad in the first 48 hrs. than in all of the first Persian Gulf Massacre) would result in tens of thousands of innocent men, women, children, babies - killed and maimed. Hundreds of thousands would die from starvation and disease in the aftermath.
A brilliant Al-Qaida recruitment plan.

To which the Blind Patriot Terrorist Freepers say: “USA! USA! USA!”

Just laugh at the woefully ignorant NIMBYist morally bankrupt imitation American Citizens. That's what i do!! Besides i know no other way to deal with those clowns.

They are just in it for the money... hence the *because i can* attitude fostered by Corporate America and the corporate media outlets. Sell-outs and cowards by any other name.

Don't do anything symbolic... they obviously have no brains and/or their collective headz up there pc asses, and any idiot can see through their paper thin morality. Idiots all.

Ask yourself this: Do you want to waste the precious and courageous efforts of all anti-war protestors and people with a conscious , let alone energy, on these run of the mill tru blue moral cowards, with provocative ad hoc symbolism that ultimately will mean nothing? i sure don't.

Power to the People

If anyone can make it to an enlistment office; get an enlistment form, and make copies. Then in a loud public voice, ask the protesters to ENLIST, ON THE SPOT. It tends to shut them up, real fast.
(you might be able to down-load a form)

If they're older, tell them to send THEIR sons !

If they want it, let THEM fight it.

I don't know if the timing of this action is appropriate. No one will be there to witness arrests, the main march wont be coming in till 12. So it will only be hundreds of police, a dozen pro war people, and the black bloc facing off. What if the cops decide to do a mass arrest. Civic center is a perfect spot for the police to surround the black bloc and take everyone in. The timing of this action and its purpose lack tactical thought in my opinion. What do we gain by confronting pro war people with deeply entrenched opinions? Call me paranoid, but the call to action is probably bait set up by the police to take in people before the war starts, sometime around march 17th. think about it. check out a post by nessie, she talks about this in another thread.

well, last time they were discussing on their list how they were coordinating with specific police officers, and had the cell phone number of the polie to contact about where they would be located. They had one or more trucks parked on grove street adjacent to city hall, which seemed like a special spot to park because that street was closed off to traffic and I assumed that only the march organizers and people selling the food on the grounds would be able to park there.

"Just secede from the union, fercryinoutloud! Loser scum."

Wow, one of those fascist dipshits had a good idea. Why don't we just Seccede from the union? Turns out that California would be the richest country in the world per capita...
Funny how the most liberal state is also one of the most productive economically. Btw, we're also paying more in federal taxes than we're getting back in grants and aid. Why should we pay for fascism? We could acutally do better on our own. Watch us pay off California's debt and establish an awsome education system while the rest of the US descends into the 3rd world (folloing Bush, cheering all the way). I bet we could get Hawaii and Oregon to join us. Then we could just declare ourselves anarchist and watch them try and stop us, especially since we've got the skunk works and the best of their hardware here.

United they stand, on us... divided they fall, so we can stand for ourselves.

"It would be really nice to know, for example, the home addresses and license plate numbers of the individuals who harrass SF-IMC by posting crap and spam here. Some SF-IMC supporters would pobably like to pay them a visit."

People who throw rocks at horses go free, to threaten others who dare to dissent from Bay Area "conventional wisdom".

The left doesn't have to be morally bankrupt. Think things through for yourself, don't just parrot some slogan NPR feeds you. Have a heart, and use your brain.

I'll see you all there. I sure hope I don't get hit by a car driven by a freeper because it would appear to be premeditated to any investigator...use their hate against them!

"Freepers are irrelevant. Why does anybody bother with this small group of right-wing extremists?"

>t would have to be proven that the individual or individuals had the capacity to carry out their threats,


Does this mean that if the guy who threatened to run people over with his car, owns a car, he's guilty?

My bad for thinking the call was a bait move from the cops lol. Didn't know the main march would be starting at Civic Center instead of Justin Herman Plaza this time. Looks like sfpd is gonna pull off an nypd move and not give a permit to the peace march. I will show up and support everybodies right to assembly. See you guys there!

Click here:

http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/03/1580232_comment.php#1580651

To the question of: Does this mean that if the guy who threatened to run people over with his car, owns a car, he's guilty?

The owning of a car alone does not constitute "capacity".

My days of "pro bono publico" are past, so my former answer and this one is a freebie. Any further questions or explanation of legal terms should be directed to your attorney.

Why our attorney? Why not the DA? Isn't it the DA's job to prosecute terrorists?

>>Why our attorney?<<

Maybe because your attorney could be more helpful in answering "any further questions or explanation of legal terms."

>>Why not the DA?<<

I suppose you could ask the DA to better define for you how the word "capacity" is defined for legal proceedings or any other questions, but he'll likely tell you he's busy (which he is) and direct you to your attorney.

>>Isn't it the DA's job to prosecute terrorists?<<

I don't believe that was ever in question. Your question involved a person who owns a car threatening to use it in a lethal way, and the answer was that owning a car in and of itself does not constitute "capacity". Again, if you don't understand what contitutes "capacity", ask your attorney

Reading your answer, I highly suggest you don't hire an attorney. They typically charge by the syllable and you ask a lot of unnessary questions. Any attorney who would assist you should ask for a $1000 retainer.

Also "in the crosshairs": ...Millions of Iraqi Civilians. The administrations "Shock and Awe" plan (more bombs on Baghdad in the first 48 hrs. than in all of the first Persian Gulf Massacre) would result in tens of thousands of innocent men, women, children, babies - killed and maimed. Hundreds of thousands would die from starvation and disease in the aftermath.

Didn't I remember hearing this same thing said about Afghanistan?

Once we get rid of Saddam and his minions, there won't be any more impediment to providing food and medical aid to Iraqi civilians, which has been consistently blocked by that government.

Do you really hate this nation and its armed forces so much that you think that it will deliberately target civilians? Even the Iraqis didn't believe that, they were smart enough to know that an orphanage didn't need a volunteer European human shield, as it already has plenty of human sheilds called "orphans."

Perhaps if Saddam wouldn't flout the Geneva Convention by putting innocent Iraqi civilians between his attackers and his military forces and installations, we wouldn't have this problem, you think?

"Do you really hate this nation and its armed forces so much that you think that it will deliberately target civilians? "

==========================================
IRAQ WATER TREATMENT VULNERABILITIES (U)

Filename: 511rept.91
DTG: 221900Z JAN. 91

FM: DIA WASHINGTON DC
VIA: NMIST NET
TO: CENTCOM
INFO: CENTAF
UK STRIKE COMMAND
MARCENT
18 ABC
NAVCENT
SOCCENT
7TH CORPS
ANKARA


SUBJECT: IRAQ WATER TREATMENT VULNERABILITIES (U) AS OF 18 JAN 91 - KEY JUDGEMENTS.

1. IRAQ DEPENDS ON IMPORTING SPECIALISED EQUIPMENT AND SOME CHEMICALS TO PURIFY ITS WATER SUPPLY, MOST OF WHICH IS HEAVILY MINERALISED AND FREQUENTLY BRACKISH TO SALINE.
2. WITH NO DOMESTIC SOURCES OF BOTH WATER TREATMENT REPLACEMENT PARTS AND SOME ESSENTIAL CHEMICALS, IRAQ WILL CONTINUE ATTEMPTS TO CIRCUMVENT UNITED NATIONS SANCTIONS TO IMPORT THESE >>> VITAL <<< COMMODITIES.

3. FAILING TO SECURE SUPPLIES WILL RESULT IN A SHORTAGE OF PURE DRINKING WATER FOR MUCH OF THE POPULATION. THIS COULD LEAD TO INCREASED INCIDENCES, IF NOT >>> EPIDEMICS , OF DISEASE <<< AND TO CERTAIN PURE WATER DEPENDENT INDUSTRIES BECOMING INCAPACITATED, INCLUDING PETRO CHEMICALS, FERTILISERS, PETROLEUM REFINING, ELECTRONICS, PHARMACEUTICALS, FOOD PROCESSING, TEXTILES, CONCRETE CONSTRUCTION, AND THERMAL POWER PLANTS.

4. IRAQ'S OVERALL WATER TREATMENT CAPABILITY WILL SUFFER A SLOW DECLINE, RATHER THAN A PRECIPITOUS HALT, AS DWINDLING SUPPLIES AND CANNIBALISED PARTS ARE CONCENTRATED AT HIGHER PRIORITY LOCATIONS. ALTHOUGH IRAQ IS ALREADY EXPERIENCING A LOSS OF WATER TREATMENT CAPABILITY, IT PROBABLY WILL TAKE AT LEAST SIX MONTHS (TO JUNE 1991) BEFORE THE SYSTEM IS FULLY DEGRADED.

5. UNLESS WATER TREATMENT SUPPLIES ARE EXEMPTED FROM THE UN SANCTIONS FOR HUMANITARIAN REASONS, NO ADEQUATE SOLUTION EXISTS FOR IRAQ'S WATER PURIFICATION DILEMMA, SINCE NO SUITABLE ALTERNATIVES, INCLUDING LOOTING SUPPLIES FROM KUWAIT, SUFFICIENTLY MEET IRAQI NEED

[...]
7. THE MINERALS IN THE WATER INCLUDE CONCENTRATIONS OF CARBONATES, SULPHATES, CHLORIDES, AND, IN SOME LOCATIONS, NITRATES. DRINKING HEAVILY MINERALISED WATER COULD RESULT IN >>> DIARRHOEA AND, OVER THE LONG TERM, STONES FORMING WITHIN THE BODY <<<. FOR INDUSTRIAL APPLICATIONS, PIPES AND OTHER EQUIPMENT WOULD SCALE (BECOME ENCRUSTED), EVENTUALLY CAUSING PLANTS TO
SHUT DOWN. SCALING IN BOILERS WOULD CAUSE EXPLOSIONS IF NOT PREVENTED OR REMOVED.

[...]
17.....IRAQ REPORTEDLY DEPENDS ON IMPORTED MEMBRANES AND IMPORTS CHEMICALS FROM SEVERAL SOURCES. IRAQ HAD NOT COMPLETED THE MAJOR PURCHASE AND DELIVERY OF SPARE MEMBRANES BEFORE INVADING KUWAIT. ATTEMPTS TO PROCURE MEMBRANES SINCE THE UN SANCTIONS WERE IMPOSED HAVE FAILED...
[...]


OUTLOOK
27. IRAQ WILL SUFFER INCREASING SHORTAGES OF PURIFIED WATER BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF REQUIRED CHEMICALS AND DESALINISATION MEMBRANES. >>> INCIDENCES OF DISEASE, INCLUDING POSSIBLE EPIDEMICS, WILL BECOME PROBABLE UNLESS THE POPULATION WERE CAREFUL TO BOIL WATER BEFORE CONSUMPTION, PARTICULARLY SINCE THE SEWAGE TREATMENT SYSTEM, NEVER A HIGH PRIORITY, WILL
SUFFER THE SAME LOSS OF CAPABILITY WITH THE LACK OF CHLORINE. LOCALLY PRODUCED FOOD AND MEDICINE COULD BE CONTAMINATED. <<< LACK OF COAGULATION CHEMICALS WILL CAUSE PERIODIC SHUTDOWNS OF TREATMENT PLANTS FOR UNCLOGGING AND CLEANING FILTERS, CAUSING INTERRUPTIONS OF WATER SUPPLIES. AS DESALINISATION EQUIPMENT BECOMES INOPERABLE, SALINE WATER SOURCES WILL BECOME INCREASINGLY UNUSABLE. TEMPORARY OR PERMANENT SHUT DOWNS OF INDUSTRIAL PLANTS THAT RELY ON TREATED WATER WILL MULTIPLY. CANNIBALISING LOWER PRIORITY OPERATIONS WILL ACCELERATE THE TREND.

28. .....FULL DEGRADATION OF THE WATER TREATMENT SYSTEM PROBABLY WILL TAKE AT LEAST ANOTHER 6 MONTHS.
==========================================
http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/declassdocs/dia/19950901/950901_511rept_91.html

Okay, so photos of infants suffering from birth defects caused by Iraqi chemical weapons or industrial pollution, and/or the failure of the Iraqi government to provide for the basic health and nutritional requirements to these infants in spite of the express allowance for such provisions by the sanctions, is evidence of deliberate US targeting of civilians?

You quote a US tactical planning report which says:

5. UNLESS WATER TREATMENT SUPPLIES ARE EXEMPTED FROM THE UN SANCTIONS FOR HUMANITARIAN REASONS, NO ADEQUATE SOLUTION EXISTS FOR IRAQ'S WATER PURIFICATION DILEMMA, SINCE NO SUITABLE ALTERNATIVES, INCLUDING LOOTING SUPPLIES FROM KUWAIT, SUFFICIENTLY MEET IRAQI NEED

But you fail to mention that water treatment supplies were and are exempted from the UN sanctions for humanitarian reasons, but the Iraqi government failed to live up to its responsibility to provide for its own citizens (which is not surprising since it has used poison gas on them):

"I am gravely concerned, however, with regard to the unacceptably slow rate of submission of applications, in particular under the health, education, water and sanitation, as well as the oil sectors," Sevan said. "Despite all the concerns expressed regarding the nutritional and health status of the Iraqi people, the total value of applications received under the health sector was only $83.61 million against the $624.75 million allocated."

You're so caught up with seeing the US as the bad guy that you're blind to the reality of the situation.

And Hamburg, My Lai, Sand Creek, Wounded Knee, Great Swamp, etc.

Massacring civilians is an old American tradition.

Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden, etc., and Hamburg, My Lai, Sand Creek, Wounded Knee, Great Swamp, etc. Massacring civilians is an old American tradition.

The most recent of your examples took place 35 years ago, and the average of all of them is 106 years ago.

And in My Lai, there was an investigation, courts-martial, and a conviction for murder.

Hardly evidence for a "tradition" of massacreing civilians.

Modern technology, in the form of GPS-guided bombs and detailed topography mapping and intelligence data, will reduce the chances of inadvertent civilian casualties even further.

And that is precisely what they will be if and when they happen - inadvertent, perhaps also set up by Saddam Hussein himself by herding a bunch of children into a military base.

maybe the black bloc folks should have many fake dead babies (Paper dolls?), with red stains and wrapped in bundles on hand, and also a ton of flowers. People can walk up to the freepers, give them babies and flowers and that'll perhaps get on tv.

You are of course alluding to the real (not fake) dead Kurdish babies who were slaughtered along with their entire families by the Saddam Hussein regime in a chemical attack on Halapja, Kurdistan on March 16, 1988...

... aren't you?

You are of course alluding to the real (not fake) dead Kurdish babies who were slaughtered along with their entire families by the Saddam Hussein regime in a chemical attack on Halapja, Kurdistan on March 16, 1988... WITH US SUPPORT AND WITH CHEMICAL WEAPONS PROVIDED BY THE US....aren't you?

"The most recent of your examples took place 35 years ago...Modern technology, in the form of GPS-guided bombs and detailed topography mapping and intelligence data, will reduce the chances of inadvertent civilian casualties even further."

Are you suggesting that the 250,000 + civilians that were murdered in Hiroshima and Nagasaki were killed inadvertently?

And modern technology didn't prevent the US military from killing over 3,000 civilians in Afghanistan. Iraq is much more densly populated. Now they're planning on using "shock and awe" tactics that will have pretty much the same effects on Baghdad that the atom bombs had in Japan, just with less radiation (and hundreds of Cruise missles are much less taboo than a nuke, even if they have the same effect.) And there's always good ol' DU rounds to make up for lack of radiation.
Of course, as you've already demonstrated, any civilian deaths will just be blamed on Saddam. The victor writes the history...

"The most recent of your examples took place 35 years ago...Modern technology, in the form of GPS-guided bombs and detailed topography mapping and intelligence data, will reduce the chances of inadvertent civilian casualties even further."

Are you suggesting that the 250,000 + civilians that were murdered in Hiroshima and Nagasaki were killed inadvertently?

And modern technology didn't prevent the US military from killing over 3,000 civilians in Afghanistan. Iraq is much more densly populated. Now they're planning on using "shock and awe" tactics that will have pretty much the same effects on Baghdad that the atom bombs had in Japan, just with less radiation (and hundreds of Cruise missles are much less taboo than a nuke, even if they have the same effect.) And there's always good ol' DU rounds to make up for lack of radiation.
Of course, as you've already demonstrated, any civilian deaths will just be blamed on Saddam. The victor writes the history...

I recall back in the days before the start of the Afghan campaign that there was a very similar chorus - I recall one particularly dimwitted protestor clamoring about "millions" of civilian deaths in Afghanistan, apparently unaware that the entire population of that nation is not much more than 20 million.

But even the supposedly better-educated pundits were predicting tens, or hundreds of thousands of deaths from the bombing and a predicted famine that never came to pass thanks to massive US humanitarian aid.

Now, instead of a humanitarian disaster of monumental proportions that was predicted by the opponents to that campaign, we have images of the grateful Afghan people thanking Allah and their American saviors for having thrown off the exploitation and oppression of the Taliban regime.

I fully agree that it's tragic that it came at a cost of the loss of 3,000 innocent lives, but how many more innocent lives would the Taliban have destroyed in exercising their crushing grip on the throat of the Afghan people, imposing brutal penalties for "crimes" such as showing your face in public or leaving the house without a male escort? The "Silence of the Feminists" would make a chilling horror film, wouldn't it?

Michael found something on globalpolicy.org to show how Iraq has not helped its people. Note that he does not try to refute evidence that the US led coalition destroyed much of the water treatment capabilities in Iraq. At any rate, I encourage interested readers to go check on globalpolicy.org, the UN, and elsewhere, and decide for yourself how much of the suffering in Iraq has been caused by the Iraqi government and how much was the result of US led military strikes and UN sanctions.

Maybe I'm slow, but I don't understand the figures quoted by Michael. Were those for one period, or for the whole duration of the oil for food program up until 2001? It looks to me from reports of the UN that Iraq has received $2-3 billion in health, along with $2-4 billion for education and water treatment.
http://www.un.org/Depts/oip/background/basicfigures2.html

Here is something from the latest UN weekly report.
http://www.un.org/Depts/oip/background/latest/wu030304.html

"Due to a cumulative oil revenue shortfall dating from phase VIII (9 June - 5 December 2000) through phase Xll of the programme, 2,555 UN-approved humanitarian supply contracts worth some $4.9 billion, currently lack funds. The sectors affected by the revenue shortfall are: food handling ($795 million); agriculture ($770 million); housing ($628 million); electricity ($561 million); food ($466 million); telecommunications and transportation ($452 million); water and sanitation ($414 million); education ($396 million); health ($374 million)."

Of course, we could blame all of the shortfall on Hussein and the Iraqi government. I don't think that would be realistic, given the military strikes and sanctions. Even the UN admits that oil for food helps, but as long as sanctions are in place, oil for food is not enough.
http://www.un.org/Depts/oip/background/fact-sheet.html

"Notwithstanding the significant achievements of the programme in improving the humanitarian condition of the Iraqi people compared to their dire plight in 1996, there still remains much to be done.

The oil-for-food programme was never intended to be a substitute for normal economic activity. As long as the comprehensive sanctions remain in force, however, there is no alternative to the programme for addressing the humanitarian situation in Iraq. Despite its shortcomings, the programme has and continues to make a major difference in the lives of ordinary Iraqis."

Are you suggesting that the 250,000 + civilians that were murdered in Hiroshima and Nagasaki were killed inadvertently?

Re-read my post. I said nothing of the sort. What I'm taking exception to is your apparent belief that just because there were a large number of civilian deaths in the atomic bombings of Japan 58 years ago, that there is a policy or practice among the US military today to deliberately target civilians, or to disregard the risks to civilians, during military operations.

There will undoubtedly be innocent Iraqi citizens in the wrong place at the wrong time, who will lose their lives during the liberation of Iraq from the exploitation and oppression of the Baathist regime. But as it was said nearly 250 years ago, from time to time the Tree of Liberty must be refreshed with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

Given that the Iraqi troops have apparently already started surrendering to British artillery tests, as reported in the Sunday Mirror on March 9, I am hopeful that the bloodshed will be minimal. PS: ... consider the fact that between April 1945, when Truman took office, and July 1945, when Truman was informed at the Potsdam Conference of the successful test of the A-bomb, the Allies suffered fully half of their total Pacific theater casualties incurred in the war so far, and the killing was increasing at a disturbing rate.

So, what has always been the key for putting an immediate end to the sanctions and the shortfalls of the oil-for-food programme?

Simple - the complete and unconditional compliance with the various United Nations resolutions implementing the armistace following the liberation of Kuwait from Iraqi occupation.

What have we had instead?

A dozen years of lies, manipulation, prevarication, and deception. A dozen years of utter disregard for the will of the international community as expressed through the United Nations, and a dozen years of suffering of the Iraqi people. It's high time we support their struggle against the exploitation and oppression of Saddam Hussein.

So, if I understand your meaning, you're saying that if you hand a guy a weapon in order to fight your common enemy, and he then uses it to slaughter babies instead, you are morally ineligable to take it away from him again, or to punish him for his crime, because of your initial acts.

Is that right?

"So, if I understand your meaning, you're saying that if you hand a guy a weapon in order to fight your common enemy, and he then uses it to slaughter babies instead, you are morally ineligable to take it away from him again"

Of course we have the right to take power away from Bush whether or not one sees him as being legally elected. He is setting himself up as teh greatest danger to world peace and that in and of itself is a reason to demand for a regime change (not to mention his access to the world's largest supply of WMD and a first strike policy).

Wow, it's amazing how easily you draw moral equivalence between Saddam, who ordered the slaughter of 5,000 men, women, and children with chemical weapons, and Bush, who is seeking to enforce the will of the international community as expressed by UN resolutions to strip him of those weapons.

Reminds me of...

Since Michael linked to the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan, maybe we can check out what their position has been on changing Afghanistan and how they feel about a US led war with Iraq.

http://rawa.fancymarketing.net/recent2.htm

RAWA feels that Afghanistan has been betrayed by Blair and Bush, and they report that more DU munitions were dropped on Afghanistan than in the gulf war. Irregular births are increasing, so we might want to update that >3,700 figure of innocent civilian casualties. In addition, there are likely over 10,000 unexploded bomblets on the ground acting as mines. RAWA reported that 41 refugees froze to death, and 100's of thousands remained at risk over the winter.

The result of this war is that warlords are carrying out arbitrary executions and women still face brutal repression. "Any sense of political stability is tenuous at best."

RAWA was against US attacks on Afghanistan.
http://rawa.fancymarketing.net/us-strikes.htm
The US ignored RAWA.

As for Iraq, RAWA held an anti-war rally.
http://rawa.fancymarketing.net/antiwar-2.htm
Among other things, you can see a banner that says the northern alliance is worse than the Iraqi regime.

What is bizarre to me is how people expect me to trust the person who gave out guns to go back and disarm the killers and bring more peace. Plus why did it take so long for the US to care about it? From 1975-1989, Kurds were relocated, mistreated and killed in Iraq. Activists decried killing of Kurds back when the US said nothing and kept Iraq as an ally. Now activists are faced with the bizarre argument that they support Hussein, when the US government actually did throughout over a decade of repression of Kurds. In addition, hawks make the bizarre claim that they never heard anything from activists about the Hussein killing Iraqi civilians. It wasn't because nothing was said. Turkey and Pakistan have treated Kurdish refugees very poorly. What is the US saying to our allies about this? Is the US just waiting for the time it doesn't need these alliances anymore before using treatment of Kurds as reason to vilify Turkey and Pakistan, while accusing activists of hypocrisy for not saying enough?

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1991/iraq/
"Despite the international outcry over this one infamous event, little was heard in the United States about Saddam Hussein's brutal treatment of his own people until his invasion of Kuwait last August 2. Even now, virtually no mention is made of the many other times the Iraqi government has gassed its large Kurdish minority.

when the Shah of Iran and President Saddam Hussein signed a border agreement in Algiers in 1975, the United States abruptly withdrew its support for the Kurds and the rebellion collapsed."

After the gassing of Kurds in Halabja in March, 1988, the first "Bush Administration was strenuously resisting renewed Congressional efforts to introduce comprehensive trade sanctions against Iraq"

The blocade lets humanitarian distributions to be made in Iraq including food and medical supplies to the citizens.
The 1/2 million ( I will use the lower figure so Sadamm will not look like too much of a monster to you) that have died from lack of these goods is Sadamm's fault not the blockade's.
Sadamm is a multi-billionaire who diverts the food and medicine to his own uses and also sells them to help build his many palaces and create WMDs.
Nice try but facts are facts.
If the cruel leader of Iraq will gas 10's of thousands of his own people do you really think he will feed the others?

Nessie,

Remember when (mid-90s) the UN first proposed the oil-for-food loosening of the sanctions and Saddam refused? Why did he refuse? Because he liked the propaganda-value that people like you gobble up.

Remember that? I didn't think so.

The spinning carousel of war justifications-du-jour now lands on:

"Bush must defy the will of the UN in order to punish Iraq for defying the UN."

"Bush must defy the will of the UN in order to punish Iraq for defying the UN."
-------------

My points were:
1) the sanctions were UN sanctions, not US sanctions
2) Saddam has (and is) prolonging the sanctions for his own reasons -- without regard for the Iraqi people.

This war is simply about preventing Saddam from acquiring nukes (read 'The Threatening Storm').

You are kind of right, though. In order to save the UN, the US will invade without the will of the UN.

For the treatment and condition of Iraqi’s, not the American Tax Payer. For it's an Iraqi Government not a US Government.

A government primary responsibility is to the care and protection of it’s own citizen and should bare full responsibility for the standard of living citizenry.

Originally, the sanctions were to be lifted after disarmament was confirmed. But then the US said that it didn't want the sanctions lifted until Saddam was gone, so Saddam then had little incentive to finish disarming.

http://www.counterpunch.org/husseini03082003.html

that the government of Iraq should do whatever it takes to rid itself of the Anglo-American blockade?

I’m assume your question was for me just curious and reading your comment I already know your biases and know that no amount of reason will change it, but two quick points:

1) There isn’t an “Anglo-American blockade”. There are UN Sanctions.
2) The UN Sanctions still allow for humanitarian aid/commerce and it’s the Iraqi government (not the American Tax Payer or for that matter US) responsibility to get their citizens those materials.

The fact is that the Iraqi government has grossly failed in providing aid to it’s citizenry despite the claims of an “Anglo-American blockade”.

>What are you saying here, that the government of Iraq should do whatever it takes to rid itself of the Anglo-American blockade?

Part of the Iraqi military is already trying to surrender. Doesn't sound like they think Saddam and his ways are worth fighting over.

http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/news/page.cfm?objectid=12715943&method=full&siteid=106694

Regarding your last post...
One of my postings was deleted, as well. I at first thought that it never made it on for some reason, but then someone else seemed to make reference to it, so it looks like it was up for at least a while.
At any rate, I'm not sure why postings are disapearing, but it's not just right-wing views. Just thought I'd let you know.

operation infinite freep: http://www.bettybowers.com/protests.html

As of tonight, several people plan to dress conservatively and infiltrate the freeper contingent. We will discredit their cause through hateful signs and yelling, especially when the corporate cameras start rolling.

We will also try to cause arguments with rally participants (but will back off before violence breaks out) and other actions in order to incite a police response to what we hope will turn into an angry, disruptive and unpermitted provocation by "freepers."

IMPORTANT!!! Please do not throw golf balls at "freepers" wearing red, white and blue face paint!!!!

The Bush Administration has to get considerable credit, really, for this resurgence of democratic expression - protesting and demonstrations against unjust government policy and conduct. They earned this by their concerted attempts to squelch First Amendment rights to gather, march and demonstrate dissent.

The Bush People, whether you like them or not, are a clear and present danger to the enigmatic "American Way". They have been working to undermine all our freedoms, steal our natural resources, imprison thousands and thousands of people needlessly.

Unlike Bush's quintessential fasicst utterance - "you are either with us or you're against us" - you will either be with us..or viewed as an unenlightened cheerleader for your slavery, which you are free to do in America.

Don't say you weren't advised....

Protest Bush, Do good. Instant Karma. Much like marijuana prohibition, Bush-ness affects everybody in hitherto unseen and unassessed ways.

Given the multiple links between Bush, oil, global privatization and cannabis suppression, cannabis reform and anti-war efforts are essentially the same Anti-Bush effort.

---

___

Make the world Safer through American regime change!

Impeach Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and send Richard Perle to prison for 800 years. Criminals one and all.

CANNABIS IS FOREVER.

Let me see here...
When Sadam was gassing his own people he was a good guy, but now that he's running the weakest country in the region he's a bad guy....
And at the same time as Bush is saying that we're removing Sadam from power because he killed his own people (with weapons technology give to Iraq by America, chemicals sold to Iraq by America with money provided by America, using intelligence given to Sadam by America), America's supporting Colombia (#1 recipient of military training and aid from the USA [excluding Israel and Egypt, which are practically states]) which has the worst human rights record on Earth right now. While condemning a country that killed it's own citizens more than 10 years ago, America is a MASSIVE supporter of a country that is executing 20 people a day for political reasons. America supports the NUMBER 1 killer of labor leaders in the world (50% of all labor leaders killed in the world were killed in the massively supported nation of) Columbia, yet Iraq (a nation with diminished and diminishing capacity) is the number 1 target.
Supposedly he is the number 1 target because of his WMDs (American supplied, just as it's supplying other nations with the materials for WMDs right now). Yet, he obviously keeps his WMDs extremely secure (that is if he has any at all, this is still debatable) and if he is overthrown all that security goes out the window and these weapons will be liberated by generals to the highest bidder. Gee... that's increased security for you.
Even more than that, Al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups have condemned Sadam as the enemy. To pay for suicide bombers is one thing, because it is no real threat to Iraqi national security; to give up weapons of mass destruction to a group he cannot control (which would be just as likely to use it against him as against anyone else) would be beyond idiotic, it would be suicide.
So long as Sadam is in power, the weapons we fear (if any more exist at all) are secure, and inspectors have destroyed those that they have "found." The longer inspections continue (with Sadam still in power) the less of these weapons there are in existence. All that can be assured by a military invasion of Iraq is that terrorist action will increase, and WMDs will be (not eliminated but) liberated into the hands of the highest bidder (Al-Qaeda, North Korea, whatever).

So in order to fight the war on terror we?re going to give the terrorists another reason to attack, and a few months later we?re going to give them weapons of mass destruction. How does increasing recruitment and improving the equipment of terrorists help win the war on terror?

Does anybody understand Freeper logic?

>I don't get it.

I read your posting and you're right, you don't get it.

Thanks for the tips, Jo Ann. The only trouble
with them is (1) Freepers _love_ to video their
demos, and they'll have lots of camcorders on hand . (3) They also like to video the participants reciting the Pledge of Allegiance, so be prepared to have multiple
views of your face given to the cops. (4) They've been
practicing bum-rushing disruptors with about 6-8
people forming a scrum and "calming" people
down. This includes stripping their clothes off
so they can join the Naturist Bloc (6) Some capitalist
lackey might geek to the cops, so don't tell anyone
about the face paint, infiltration plans, etc!

Hope this helps!

Cranky

I hope that when the terrorist do attack as you all seem to suggest that they hit people like you first. Then you will know what it is like to lose one's you love to terrorists and then you'll see why people want avenge these awful attacks. Then when the news seems old and people (like you) start not to care, then you will know what it is like to see people walking around saying it is wrong to destroy something that destroyed your family. You are extremely ignorant. I am sure most of you freaks are anti- death penalty, anti-police and anything else that is supposed to be there to protect you. Funny, most of the people who are in places like Berkely hate the police, but then when they are in trouble who do they call and who comes? Funny that there are brave men and women out there fighting for your right to have your opinion (however thickheaded it is) and dying for your freedom to protest and not support them. You will feel really bad when one day this country is attacked (oh, wait, apparently you have already forgotten SEPTEMBER 11) and it could have all been prevented. However ignorant and mindless your views are, more people in this country support the president and the troops. SO WHO CARES WHAT YOU PEOPLE SAY OR THINK-ONLY YOU. Jsut remember FREEDOM IS NOT FREE. SUPPORT OUR SOLDIERS. THEY FIGHT AND DIE FOR YOUR FREEDOM.

Bush's unjust war is not going to be fought to "protect " my right to free speech. My freedom to speak my mind is not jeopardized by a nation thousands of miles away.

My freedom of speech does seem jeopardized by the Bush regime, though, with pigs like Ashcroft and Ridge at the helm.

Oppose the war, oppose the troops!

OPPOSE MY ASS.

>>>it was a strange effect because more people participate with their internet chat thread than actually showed up, and usually the opposite happens for liberals/leftists where far more show up than discuss on the internet. <<<<

The reason for this is patently obvious. Conservatives are individualists, Liberals are collectivists. Group action is not big in conservative circles.

Hello boys and girls. We're watching. Remember...safety first.

These people are just a bunch of small, narrow minded; misguided ignorant bafoons who don't deserve any of your attention. They protest against the Peace Fresno protesters every Friday in Fresno...the local talk radio KMJ suppports them, the police at times support them and some of the local city council members stand in support of these racist, pathetic individuals...but the public can see how lame they are. Peace Fresno doesn't even aknowledge them which is what they deserve....none of your time.

"maybe the black bloc folks should have many fake dead babies (Paper dolls?), with red stains and wrapped in bundles on hand, and also a ton of flowers. People can walk up to the freepers, give them babies and flowers and that'll perhaps get on tv. "

Why would we do that? That sounds like the tactics that the anti-choice people would do during an anti-abortion protest!!!

That is ahistorical nonsense. These people are extremely well organized. They are way ahead of us. They started using computers to organize, for example, years before we did. Their mass mailing techniques also excel.

Ask Richard Viguerie.

>>>it was a strange effect because more people participate with their internet chat thread than actually showed up, and usually the opposite happens for liberals/leftists where far more show up than discuss on the internet. <<<<
The reason for this is patently obvious. Conservatives are individualists, Liberals are collectivists. Group action is not big in conservative circles.<<

Funny...I'm considered a liberal and I'm quite the individualist, but then again...I'm isolationist too, don't people usually accuse conservatives of being isolationist?
I hope to see some folks in LA tomorrow...my message is simple "Bush is a traitor". I think it's hilarious that there's a "Freeper"( whatever the hell that's supposed to mean, is it like a Yooper?) contingent to support the status quo. If we are going to give ANYTHING to these people it should not be dead baby dolls and crap like that. I think the problem that the anti-war and general protesting movement is having is that they are trying to be too clever. All the symbolism and creative messages are great for people who agree with you, useless to the people who don't. No, I think we should give the Freepers hot coffee, cocoa, snacks, sandwiches...maybe even simulated refugee rations :-). While they are getting incredibly aggressive with us, kill em with kindness, make it hard for them to hate us.
I'm not sure we can stop anything at this point, but we can sure make it difficult. Maybe I've seen the Great escape too many times :-). See y'all tomorrow.

Must be worried about security...

The Freepers are now going to set up a "perimeter",
with "marshals" (their words) not allowing anyone
inside without a Government photo ID. They'll
be videoing the ID checks, too.

The Freeper bigwigs will also be issuing some
form of wearable identification just before the
action (gotta stop them infiltrators from polluting
our precious bodily fluids!). Anyone attempting
to join in without it "will get the boot"- I suspect
that's more than a turn of phrase.

Just want everyone to know that they ARE reading
sf.indymedia. We've got our sources, too, Freepers!

Proud

Does that mean they'll be all bunched up? Won't that make them better targets for flying eggs (or whatever)?

When Fred Phelps' freakshow came to town in '94 with their "god hates fags" bullshit, and were protected by a line of SFPD and metal barricades from a gaggle of gay counterprotesters, I distinctly remember that golfballs were thrown from somewhere within the crowd at the Phelps crowd. Apparently, golf balls are easy to conceal and hurt very much.

Would they work in slings?

See:

http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/02/1571697_comment.php#1579871

If a bunch were spilled on the ground, would they spook the horses like a bunch of spilled marbles would?

check out this freeper's rap on the topis:

http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/03/1580890_comment.php#1580902

(snip)

High power slingshots (the really good kind with the wrist support, etc.,) shooting ice cubes from local rooftops are very nasty!

Silent, non-lethal, hurts like hell, "ammunition" melts away, 5 shots into the crowd, in 15 seconds, then disappear to another window, stairwell, etc., 4 more shots, move, 4 more shots. Watch out for sun reflections off cubes. Works best at night, dusk. (re: rooftops, watch out for airborne observation, cameras)

(snip)

radical Queers intend to attack the freepers with bar darts dipped in HIV blood.

Don't believe it. Come on down. You'll be safe as milk.

"As of tonight, several people plan to dress conservatively and infiltrate the freeper contingent. We will discredit their cause through hateful signs and yelling, especially when the corporate cameras start rolling.

We will also try to cause arguments with rally participants (but will back off before violence breaks out) and other actions in order to incite a police response to what we hope will turn into an angry, disruptive and unpermitted provocation by "freepers."

IMPORTANT!!! Please do not throw golf balls at "freepers" wearing red, white and blue face paint!!!!
"

You are a shitface.

You propose to be anti-war by trying to start fights?

Advocate violence against those who disagree with you? That sounds like what President Bush is doing.

Is this your belief in free speech shining through?

Tim

It's not about making peace with our oppressors or their lackeys. It's about fighting back.