Reparations Now!

Reparations are equally due to African people for kidnapping our ancestors, bringing them by force to be literally worked to death.

So, how much do you expect to get from the descendents of your fellow "africans" whose anscestors gathered you all up and sold you to the white slave traders to begin with. Or did you forget about them. Furthermore, in Mauritania, hundreds of thousands are born into slavery. In Sudan, government militias storm southern villages and abduct women and children as slaves. Do the africans engaging in the human slave trade, as we speak, owe anything? Just wondering.

As long as blacks blame whites for everything and deny the role they played in selling their black "brothers" into bondage, they will continue to be slaves.

They are such hardcore wingnuts that most sectarian groups pale (sorry for the pun) in comparison.

be careful of any anonymous dipshit on the internet (or anyone for that matter) who doesn't address the question at hand, but rather slanders an organization raising an important issue, such as reparations, by employing silly, meaningless buzzwords, such as "cult."

You want reparations? First pay back all the welfare, AND pay for the Civil War. After that, we'll talk.

See photo of demonstration.

In Saudi Arabia and other arab countries, slavery was only outlawed recently, within the past 50 years or so. So how much do they owe?

Just curious.

My great grandpa was killed in the Civil War fighting for the Union. Please send me my money. Thanks!

Well, I guess that about covers it. Thumbs down on the reparations. Next.

According to the American Heritage Dictionary (4th edition) definition:

cult (kult) n. 1. A religion or religious sect [Uhuru might mean "freedom" in some languages, but in use in American English it immediately connotes "guilt" and all kinds of other MORAL categories] generally considered to be extremist or false [here it hits the nail of the Uhuru House right on the head], with its followers often living communally [if not in actuality, they do use the term "house" to indicate it metaphorically] under an authoriatarian charismatic leader [Omali Yeshiteli is the exact match to this definition in his role in their cult of personality].

The Uhurus are full of buzzwords pandering to guilt and trying to give the illusion of having street credibility in the African-American community, where the people I've spoken to think they are nuts.

Okay, my anscestors fought for the south. But if it makes you feel any better, I have it on good authority that they didn't fight very hard. To whom should I make out the check? Do I get a certificate indicating that I have paid my reparations and am therefore exempted from further debate?

"The Uhurus are full of buzzwords pandering to guilt and trying to give the illusion of having street credibility "

so we are a "cult" becuase we call our center a "house" and cults also have houses, the demand for reparations makes you feel quilty and because your "african american" friend doesn't like us. now i get it.

anyone who doubts the uhuru movement's influence in the african community should do a search on google for "st. peteresburg" "tyron lewis" "1996" and "uhuru house."

or better yet, email me and i'll show you a video of our leader speaking to a crowd of thousands of cheering africans.

or if you want to hear the leader of the terrible "cult" the uhuru movement, speak on the war, just click here.

http://www.macdillpeacerally.org/mp3/Omali%20Yeshitela.mp3

that is the voice that unites many white anarchists, white liberals, white socialists and white reactionaries in rabid hatred for anything black that has a voice independent from their political vision.

the uhuru movement is a world wide movement. our expreience in the "progressive" bay area the most vicious enemies of the uhuru movement are white leftists who hate african freedom and independence more than they hate their own ruling class, as evidenced often on indymedia.

come on out to the youth empowerment center near the west oakland bart on saturday february 15th, and participate in our "truth reconciliation and reparations tribunal." here the uhuru movement's uhuru movement leaders, such as saikou diallo, the father of amadu diallo.

anyone who tells you not to go because "uhuru is a cult" or some other line of bullshit, is either afraid the uhuru movement might tell you something they don't want you to know, doesn't respect you intellectual ability to decide right from wrong on your own, or both. this kind of person is a piece of shit who is worthy of your loathing.

"under an authoriatarian charismatic leader [Omali Yeshiteli is the exact match to this definition in his role in their cult of personality]. "

so because we have a charismatic leader, we are a cult. i guess then the civli rights movement was a cult also, because martin luther king was a charismatic leader. oh, yeah i guess not. they didn't have a "house" where they held meetings.

sorry. we'll try come up with boring, dried-up leaders like the white left has, so we are less of a "cult" to you. maybe some 80 year old "labor activist" or something....

"anyone who tells you not to go because "uhuru is a cult" or some other line of bullshit, is either afraid the uhuru movement might tell you something they don't want you to know, doesn't respect you intellectual ability to decide right from wrong on your own, or both. this kind of person is a piece of shit who is worthy of your loathing."

Classic grammar mistake: "doesn't respect you intellectual ability..."

You guys could also learn how to spell xenophobia, since it is central to the original article.

And I don't loath anyone, on principle. I believe any kind of loathing or hatred is wrong. I also would not call a person a "piece of shit" if I was asking him for money.

Good luck with that, but I don't think you'll have much success in America. Try Zimbabwe.

"Classic grammar mistake: "doesn't respect you intellectual ability..."

perhaps i'm the first person to tell you that criticisms of grammer and spelling make for a very weak rebut in an internet discussion. actually they makes your position look weaker than any spelling or grammar error could.

perhaps you'd do better by explaining how the original article is xenophobic.

i didn't say you're a piece of shit if you don't agree with reparations, i said you're a piece of shit if you're running around bad mouthing organizations for trying to have a forum on the subject, and/or trying to discourage your friends and associates generating their own opinion about a group with slanderous, meaningless buzzwords such a "cult." please read more carefully and worry less about dotted "i's" and crossed "t's." thanks.

reparations?? Oh please. Get over it.

it shows the true colors of the white left. most white leftists have exactly the same position the george bush and rush limbaugh have about this matter.

"give up the billions upon billions generated through the hundred of years of colonialism of african people? you mean EVERYTHING generated from slavery right up the the 400 billion dollar a year drug economy and the 200 billion dollar a year prison industry?!?!? you must be out of your mind!!!! next you'll tell me we have to give up the land we stole from the indians! all that shit is OURS NOW!!! get over it!"

when a demand forces people to be honest about their positions, its a good demand.

Funny thing. Only one country has actually instituted reparations, and that is Zimbabwe. Now their people are starving and political dissenters are murdered. Soon they will need reparations for the damage reparations have done.

I don't know who the Uhuru are, but they seem like a bunch of fools. Nobody is trying to stifle their debate, but nobody is listening either, and that upsets them.

All the reparations arguments have been refuted. Who cares. The only "debate" comes from people asking for money. Get over it. Next debate.

Slavery reparations would only increase racial hostility, Libertarians say

August 20, 2002

WASHINGTON, DC -- A renewed demand by African-American leaders for slavery reparations should be rejected because such payments would only increase racial hostility, Libertarians say.

"The battle cry for reparations has far more to do with the color green than with the colors black and white," said Steve Dasbach, executive director of the Libertarian Party. "Forcing people who had nothing to do with slavery to pay others who were never enslaved is the height of injustice and will only exacerbate racial tension in America."

..."Besides, decades of other race-conscious government programs, such as minority set-asides and hiring quotas, have actually expanded the racial divide. Instead of learning from those failures, politicians seem determined to create more of them."

..."Blacks should demand freedom from taxation, which keeps too many in poverty; freedom from the Social Security system, which deprives too many of a secure retirement; and freedom from the Drug War, which confines too many to prison," he said.

"Gaining independence from government programs like these would improve the lives of African-Americans far more than slavery reparations ever could."

yes. lets' talk about foolish. if you "don't know who uhuru is," how can you say "nobody is trying to stifle their debate." how would you know?

i don't know what cave you're living in, but the reparations debate is far from over. it's just started to rage, as a matter of fact. even city government officials are now embracing it and fighting for it, such as charles barron, who sits on the city council in new york.

but once the african community at-large embraces it, as is inevitable, neither of our opinions will matter much. reparations will become a matter of fact and then a matter of history. it's not limited to money either. or africans. you know that land your standing on that you call "your" property? i've got news for you, friend. its only your property to the extent that your state can send in men with guns to keep it from those they stole it from. once that unravels, guess what? reparations time!

and that is what terrifies both the white left and the white right, and why the white left attempts to stifle uhuru movement with buzz words, like "cult."

Oooo.... scary. So a bunch of black people are going to come take everything I own and enslave me for 400 years? This ain't Zimbabwe, pal. OTOH, that may be the only thing that will satisfy some people.

I know nobody is trying to stifle their debate becase I hear about this. Nobody with the power to do so takes any of this seriously. In fact, I'm surprised even the whackos take it seriously.

Well, if it's inevitable I guess I should stop being white... before it's too late. Let this be a lesson to others. Don't be white, or they will make you pay for it.

Note to the editors. Isn't the idea of reparations racist? Like zionism? Isn't it the same idea with different colors?

Go ahead and rage on. You can't make a persuasive arguement out of insanity. You can only persuade the chronically cranky members of the No Fun Club, who are against animal testing, against globalization, against halting the slaughter of the unborn, against removing the mortal threat in Iraq, etc. ad nauseum

The only consistent thread in these views is a very adolescent and irrational anti-authorianism, and a self-righteous paranoia which precludes y'all from examining the belief system with anything approaching intellectual rigor or honesty.

The one issue that I’ve noticed that supporters of Reparations have always failed to address is the issue of 1st, 2nd and some cases 3rd and 4th generation of Americans whom came into this country after the 1900, long after the slavery was abolished. Many in the Hispanic and Asian communities that recently migrated into this country won’t support Reparations because they feel that they are being unjustly punished for crimes that their ancestors had no part in. Until Reparationist address this key issue, it’s not only going to be the Caucasians oppose to it, but several other ethnicities from various backgrounds as well.

I appreciate your honesty. As one ideologue once told me; "getting Libertarians to agree on anything is like wrestling cats" -- perhaps best exemplified by Fox's Bill O'Reilly and Antiwar's Justin Raimondo. Please don't mistake my attitude as being anti-Libertarianism per se, it's just that arguing with "invisible" Libertarians can be extremely frustrating.

Reparations will indeed be a hard sell for many reasons, but that doesn't mean it isn't worth the effort. I believe the process itself be the true reward moreso than any cash payment. Keep in mind that the demands and limitations of our multi-cultural society all but guarantee compromise, and cooperation is the cornerstone to a healthy society.

I'm sure you see things differently, but that's okay.

rebel yellow - a non-descript independent voter

1. when a crime is committed all who benefit from the crime bear some responsiblity for it, if not equally. if i rob a bank and give you some money, that money still has to go back to the bank if i get caught, if you don't turn it in willfully, you're considered an accomplis to the crime.

2. the demand for reparations, makes an ideological struggle as well as a material struggle.

what it says is the abject poverty, the crime rates, the drug economy, the prison rates, the lack of access to education, and all the other contradictions that confront african people in the u.s. are because they are victims of america, not because america is a victim of them.

the belief in an inherent pathology attributable to africans that justifies their unspeakable conditions in the u.s. is an important ideological cornerstone of domestic colonialism imposed on african people. the slogan "reparations now" undermines this ideological cornerstone.

Matthew- you wrote "...1. when a crime is committed all who benefit from the crime bear some responsiblity for it, if not equally. .." I put it to you the the single largest beneficiaries of slavery in America's past are black people living in the U.S. today. The descendants of slaves in the U.S. are luckier than their distant cousins still in Africa. They are luckier than the millions of slaves that were castrated and killed by the Arabs. They are luckier than the millions worked to death by the Spaniard in the Caribbean. Count your blessings, American blacks. You are free, you are fat, you can vote, and two of the most powerful people in the U.S. Government share your skin color. (but not your politics- they are Republicans- the same party that freed the slaves 140 years ago.

If reparations are only made an African-American issue, then I will not support it. Reparations must be made to all descendants of all people who at any time since the beginning of recorded history were oppressed, otherwise you are unequally burdening individuals to pay reparations to another people when they themselves should be receiving reparations.

Since all people on Earth could undoubtly trace their ancestry back to a family member who was likely oppressed by people at some point in history, maybe everyone on Earth should just give every other person on Earth a dollar and call it even.

Other than that, I'm not paying anyone anything and I don't want anything in return.

Reparations are bullshit unless they're connected to a broader campaign for universal health insurance and redistribution of wealth. Black nationalism is a racist, dead end. And it's creepy.

I also appreciate your honest and approach to this issue. While we may disagree on points, it doesn’t mean we can’t be civil to on another.

The problem I see with the Reparations Issue is that a lot of the arguments both Pro and Con are based more on emotionalism and stereotyping than on reasoning and logic. Just scroll up on this string, I would say 80% of the posts are emotional outburst with stereotyping than a logical response. The problem that I found is that no one has come out with a logical reasoning as to why Reparations are due, to whom, and the payment method. As I stated before, one must address my initial question regarding “newer” Americans among many others before anyone will accept the concept of Reparations.

As to your cat comment, I enjoy watching cats wrestling, it’s very entertaining.

"what it says is the abject poverty, the crime rates, the drug economy, the prison rates, the lack of access to education, and all the other contradictions that confront african people in the u.s. are because they are victims of america, not because america is a victim of them."

This is the exact opposite of reality. The worst thing about this "culture of the victim" thinking is it EXCUSES the very REAL problems WITHIN the black community that CONTRIBUTE to their own misery!

And this is RACISM ITSELF, Matthew, because you are saying that someone is so helpless by virtue of being black that they are UNABLE to help themselves. The rise of a black middle class in the U.S. is proof enough that helplessness is not the case.

So that's where the reparations debate hurts black people more than it helps . Numerous immigrant communities have faced the same problems and have overcome them. Jews were ghettoized just like blacks. Chinese, Japanese, South Asians, and Hispanics all had skin pigmentation that set them apart from the majority whites. Catholics had religious differences with the dominant Protestant power structure. You argue that the only reason these latter groups have succeeded is because they were never enslaved. You will never sell this type of bullshit to people who, on a one-on-one struggle with adversity, have overcome the odds and succeeded. If you are black, it's a better use of your time to take care of your own, improve yourself with the proven technique of HARD WORK, and quit looking for a handout!

Everyone is born powerless in this world.

...so little time.

"So that's where the reparations debate hurts black people more than it helps . Numerous immigrant communities have faced the same problems and have overcome them. Jews were ghettoized just like blacks. Chinese, Japanese, South Asians, and Hispanics... (blah blah blah.... )

1. africans are not here in numbers because they were immgrants. they were brought here to be farm animals. the united states of america runs off the exploitation of african people in particular. it always has. that's why other groups come here and in a few generations "make it" and africans still fill the prisons and the ghettos.

"You will never sell this type of bullshit to people who, on a one-on-one struggle with adversity, have overcome the odds and succeeded. If you are black, it's a better use of your time to take care of your own, improve yourself with the proven technique of HARD WORK, and quit looking for a handout! "

2. if "HARD WORK" were the basis for wealth in the u.s., africans would be some of the richest people here. in fact it was the need for "HARD WORK" that got africans into this mess in the first place. (see point one). who benefiited from all the "HARD WORK" of hundreds of years of chattel slavery?

"I put it to you the the single largest beneficiaries of slavery in America's past are black people living in the U.S. today. The descendants of slaves in the U.S. are luckier than their distant cousins still in Africa. "

3. that's my favorite argument against reparations; that african people are better of as slaves for white people than as independent people in africa. and some suggest i'm a racist.

the blatant disregard for the fact that colonialism created both the conditions of life for african people on the continent of africa and for african people in the u.s. is truly awesome.

come on out to this event:

http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/02/1570700.php

Colonialism did not create poverty, infanticide, slavery, war, butchery, or....dare I say it.....(yes) savagery in Africa. Read the journals of the explorers. Europeans brought the gifts of civilization to the entire world. They bought Africans in existing slave markets, from Africans who sold their enemies, and even their own children as chattel. Eventually, the British Navy ended the slave trade..(except in Arab and east African countries, where it persisted into the 20th century.) You morons who live to bash western societies have no idea how very lucky you are to live in the U.S. in the 21st century.

Where do these people come from?

A few years ago it would have been hard to find even one or two Americans with such views, now fascism is growing like mad. I guess there has to be a public shift towrads justification of past colonialism if the US is to continue with its current foreign policy...

oh, i don't think that the "Europeans were great" crowd is any bigger than it was a few years ago. most people are moving away from that view. it's just that since 9/11, the sub-fascists have become far more vocal and have access to FoxNews and other venues. But on the street, you don't encounter it as much as you might think. The idea that Columbus discovered America is greeted with almost universal derision, except in Engelwood, New Jersey and such places.

1st colonialism is the worst evil in the history of the universe 2nd not so bad --> somekind of synthesis, we'll have to wait and see.

Annoying! I hate Hegel!

"History"

What does living in the 21st C. US have to do with this thread?
That is a ridiculous excuse. Your point is to justify your defense and that is the only thing you've accomplished. To actually think that the assimilation of different cultural traits is a justification for one's own actions is really unusual. To think that slavery did not occur in European cultures before colonial travel is equally absurd. To believe for a moment that you are an "historian" may mean nothing more than the fact that you read some books on history; adopted an idea and then produced a weak position that is rooted deeply in subjective claims.

I am going to get to the root of your statement:
"Colonization brought civilization to the World. You should be happy to be in America."

With every little historical event comes good stories, bad stories, exceptional, mundane, silly, weird, criminal, etc. Don't play with such a limited deck.

I think that may be his point.

I am just now reading the Journals of Capt. James Cook. When he discovered New Zealand (yes..discovered) he was on a voyage to help estimate the size of the solar system by observing and measuring the transit of the moons of Saturn. He had sophisticated equipment of all kinds with him. He had books of poetry, and art. He found people there with no written language, no art, no technology above woven grass baskets. The people were cannibals. Their warfare was horrific. They were not noble savages... My point is that Europeans (ultimately) brought large parts of the world out of a pre-civilized condition. You can hate the west all you want, but it brought us all the modern goodies that you all use every day. Americans of African descent should be thankful for the sacrifices endured by their ancestors- they derive the benefits of citizenship in the U.S. through luck..as do we all.

Abel Tasman discovered NZ. and we are proud of our war-like maori ancestors. They put up a good fight! not like your pussy nature-loving 'native americans'!

my good friend, please read CONTEMPORARY ACCOUNTS of the settlement of the West to understand the nature of Native Americans.

A "contemporary account" is something that was written on the spot by people who were involved in the events they were describing. Here's a really easy thing for you to do: ever hear of Theodore Roosevelt? President of the United States, model for the Teddy Bear, and all that? Well, he wrote a series of books that relied heavily on contemporary accounts of what the Native Americans did, how they fought, etc. at the time of the Revolutionary War. I'm sure you have a cartoonish impression of Native American warfare, with a cartoon George Armstrong Custer in a cartoon blue uniform fighting Sioux in the 1870's, but the conflict is much more complicated than that.

Contemporary accounts document atrocities on both sides. White settler children were tortured or burned to death in front of their mothers (who were afterward raped and tortured to death). Chieftains were treacherously betrayed by other tribes. British had their allied tribes, French had their allied tribes, Spaniards had their allied tribes, and "American" settlers had theirs. All played all against each other.

So you have no idea how warlike the american indians were. Like other leftists who discuss history, you betray your ignorance everytime you open your mouth. But it doesn't always have to be this way. You can educate yourself. Instead of getting your facts from Noam Chomsky, get your facts from where he gets his. Granted, he is extremely selective, but at least he doesn't propagate the errors of others from a lazy habit of mind.

the maori were tougher. they invented trench warfare you know, they almost won!

" that african people are better of as slaves for white people than as independent people in africa. "

No one is saying that the slaves were better off after being brought from Africa - their condition generally either remained the same as it had been while they were slaves in Africa or worsened - but the descendants of slaves in the USA are doing better than almost all Subsaharan Africans today.

Of course, if Blacks deserve reparations, then it would be quite unfair to not give everyone else any reparations they deserve - White people who suffered from a Black on White hate crime, or their descendants, the Irish because of the Potato famine and racism against them, and their descendants, the British because of IRA violence, the Palestinians for the Israeli occupation, the Israelis for the Palestinian terrorism...

Tim

It's hilarious--it seems like the only country in Africa rightists in America have ever heard of is Zimbabwe.

One deigns to mention racism in America, and like clock-work, the ignoramuses climb out from under their rocks:

"Yea, take that to Zimbabwe"..."yea, that might work in Zimbabwe".. ... "Zimbabwe tried that and look at Zimbabwe"... "Why don't you just admit you're from Zimbabwe?"......

For our uneducated rightists boobs, merely uttering the word clinches the argument. Nothing more needs to be said. It's a one word rhetorical slam-dunk. But what the fuck does it mean?

If 1% of those that invoke the Z-word could extemporaneously tell you ANYTHING about the history of Zimbabwe, or for that matter, southern Africa, I'd be shocked. Most that throw it around heard about it from some racist right-wing fat-head on AM radio (who doesn't know what the fuck they're talking about either).

For rightists who know the name of the current president of Z, Mugabe's a crazy leftist trying to establish the Soviet Union in southern Africa. We're suppposed to infer that the suffering endured in Z is of greater magnitude then in most of the rest of Africa and that it is due to the commie policies of its current government (ridiculously far from the truth: Mugabe has imposed IMF austerity with the best of them). We're supposed to infer that those who invoke the Z-word in some manner care about that suffering. One might, for instance, think that these rightists were opposed to Rhodesian apartheid and concerned with addressing it's legacy today in Zimbabwe. But most of these rightists don't even know that Zimbabwe used to be Rhodesia, let alone know anything about it's policies.....

The next time you hear a rightist yelling "Zimbabwe!" in a crowed forum, ask him/her to expound in depth. I guarantee you, they'll shut the fuck up quick.

Here's the bottom line. The VAST, VAST, VAST majority of U.S. citizens today, of any race, all have ancestors who first game here to America, after slavery was abolished. That's all there is to it. reparations are utter nonsense .

"My point is that Europeans (ultimately) brought large parts of the world out of a pre-civilized condition."

you're kidding right? "europeans" were struggling to master fire while africans and south americans were engagned inter-continental trade! europe was a mess of waring tribes when timbuktu was the international hub of cosmopolitan life. people from around the world were going to universities in timbuktu when europeans bareley stopped swinging from trees.

they were doing catarax surgery in timbuktu when europeans were applying leeches to try to solve the bubonic plague which wiped out 25% of its population in a few years in the mid-1300's. children today still sing "ring around the rosies" in homage to the time when rats and fleas were spreading bubonic plague through europe like wild fire. europeans at the time didn't believe in bathing more than once or twice a year. this did not help them fend off the germs that were wiping them out.

"historian," you're a white nationalist joke. the only "civilization" europeans have brought the world is how to most efficiantly commit genocide.

Your ignorance of medicine is hilarious. In "catarax" surgery, the anterior chamber of the eye, which has a big, opacified lens in it, is incised and the lens is removed. An artificial lens is then implanted. The whole process takes about 5 minutes.

At the time Europeans were swinging from trees, no one in the world had yet invented artificial intra-ocular lenses, not even on the supremely advanced African continent. It is quite easy to spew "facts" like that nonsense about cataract surgery, but we have no records regarding whether anyone could see afterwards! My guess is that, unless the African proto-opthalmologists discovered the principles of anti-sepsis centuries before Joseph Lister (European), that surgery with unsterile instruments on the eye resulted in a high percentage of endophthalmitis, which is an infection of the entire eyeball. Which can blind or kill you in the pre-antibiotic era (Alexander Fleming, European).

Remember that the eye is what is called an "immunologically privileged area" which means the immune system has no access to it unless somebody, like, cuts it. Thereafter, the body's immune system, seeing the eye antigens for the first time, attacks it and rejects it. So, there are two strikes against your fucked up "ancient astronauts taught africans ophthalmology" bullwhah.

And finally, unless the African nations had identified the principles of infectious disease first enunciated by Robert Koch (European), bubonic plague would have ravaged their populations just as badly as it did the Europeans.

Your other claims about pre-Columbian international trade are similarly bogus. Ever heard of the Greek empire? Alexander the Great? The Silk Road? Roman Empire?

Hopefully you are still in High School and have a lot of education ahead of you. That's your only excuse for your degree of ignorance. I can't fix your knowledge deficit, I can only hope you spend four years studying something worthwhile, in a rigourous academic setting.

matthew is your typical male of european descent who feels "guilty" because of all the people on Earth he could have been, he was born white & male and living in the USA, and because of that he feels obligated to "even the score" for all people everywhere.

The interesting thing I've noted about these reparation types is that while they are arguing for reparations to the descendants of former slaves by all non-African citizens of the USA, they have yet to even temporarily set up any type of centralized accounts for those who feel as they do to contribute and to be equally or otherwise distributed among those of African descent. If matthew feels that reparations should be paid, he and all others who feel the same way as he should pool whatever money they want together and dole it out. But, they won't do that. That's not their goal. They want everyone else to do as they do. matthew and his ilk are just another group who cries "Freedom", and they'll let you have it as long as you do what they say.

I saw a NBPP reparations rally on c-span, and it looks like nothing more than extremist pep-rallies. "Pin the tail on the honkey" as the leader of the New Black Panther Party said. BTW, the original Black Panthers are suing them to prevent them from using their name. Huey Long -- who never called for reparations -- said the NBPP is "as bad as the KKK."

Secondly, since the article says nothing about exactly what you propose -- only that we owe you something -- I suspect this is also nothing more than a hate rally.

So I wouldn't expect a white guy like me to go to your reparations rally to discuss your views in person anymore than I would expect a black guy to go to a KKK rally to discuss their views.

Already I've been called a contemptible piece of shit, and you haven't even met me. What names would I be called in person I wonder.

Isn't Uhuru that hot chick that was on the original "Star Trek"? Woo-hoo, what a set of lungs she had! I don't understand why she wants reparations; she made plenty of bucks off the show.

"another white guy" and others are attempting to defend what is reinforced in grammar, high school and college in this society -- the ridiculous notion that white people brought civiliziation to the world. white people are eager to believe this lie (generally speaking), as its a nicer explanation for why white people are so much richer, educated and comfortable (generally speaking) than the rest of the world. the truth -- that white people are doing better because as a group we have been the most brutal, uncivlized, and violent people the world has ever seen is a bitter pill to swallow. i know its painful to admit, and i didn't want to believe this either for a long time i argued against the facts. but as they say "the truth hurts."

this is why my position, which explains that the injustice of 20 (or so) percent of the world's population controlling 80 (or so) percent of the world's wealth, is not because the 20% is more "advanced," is ridiculed for being based on what's percieved as a lack of education.

the cataract surgery in timbuktu reference comes from "they came before the mayflower" by Lerone Jr. Bennett, its part of very beautiful description of the ancient city of timbuktu and the university of sankore where successful cataract surgeries were performed.

"And finally, unless the African nations had identified the principles of infectious disease first enunciated by Robert Koch (European), bubonic plague would have ravaged their populations just as badly as it did the Europeans. "

talk about needing a clue. the reason europe was susceptible to the "black plauge" in "dark ages" europe was not because they had yet to discover the "principles of infectious disease." it was because they had yet to discover the principles of sanitation! you know, the art and science of taking a bath regularly and not shiting out of your window or throwing your food waste into the dirt in front of your doorway? this backward behavoir is what made europe susceptible to bubonic plague and other diseases. african societies were in no such danger.

"Your other claims about pre-Columbian international trade are similarly bogus. Ever heard of the Greek empire? Alexander the Great? The Silk Road? Roman Empire?"

ever heard of the olmec heads, you arrogant dipshit? stick to hunting for typos in my message and pointing those out. trust me, that's the best argument you'll muster.

"If matthew feels that reparations should be paid, he and all others who feel the same way as he should pool whatever money they want together and dole it out."

actually i and other white people do feel that way and we do get together to raise reparations. you'll see some of it next weekend at the big anti-war rally. we provide food as a fundraiser for the uhuru movement. come through and learn that reparations is a positive thing, not a negative thing. even for white people.

<b>actually i and other white people do feel that way and we do get together to raise reparations. you'll see some of it next weekend at the big anti-war rally. we provide food as a fundraiser for the uhuru movement. come through and learn that reparations is a positive thing, not a negative thing. even for white people.</b><p>
Just plain amazing. The most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Some jackass actually trying to privately rasie "reparations". It's a blatant slap in the face to Blacks, telling them they need to be taken care of. Just unbeleievable. "Food for Uhuru" is reparations. Give us a break!

"jer" says if myself and others feel reparations are owed, we should do something about it, and i demonstrate how we do just that.

now "still here" is offended on behalf of black people, as if making reparations is some kind of "favor" to them, as if taking responsiblity for a debt is doing the person owed a "favor."

you just can't please these ahistorical, anti-reparations folks.

http://www.uhurureparations.org

First of all I'm not offended. The Blacks can handle that on their own. But what "debt" are you talking about? What sort of "debt" does anyone ,anywhere owe some member of "uhuru" in 2003. That's just insane. If the members of "uhuru" feel they have something coming then maybe they should spend some more time earning and less time demanding.

If anything, whites should receive reparations for the billions spent on welfare, crime, drug addiction, illiteracy, illegitimacy, and incarceration for our darker bretheren.

you've successfully boiled down the position of those who oppose reparations for african people to its fundamental elements -- that black people have not suffered as a consequence of coming into contact with white people, nor have white people profited from that suffering. in fact, if anything the reverse is true.

but of course you already said that and better than i can. well done, and thanks for your honesty.

I keep waiting to see proof that you're not stupid, and your arguments are merely based on ignorance. You keep disappointing me. So let's look at just ONE of your fantasies: that the presence of Olmec heads proves the superiority of pre-Columbian mesoamerican culture to contemporary European culture.

Please explain how the presence of megalithic heads proves international trade.

Please explain why you think pre-iron age technology, such as that required to produce megalithic artifacts, was not present in Europe. Use Stonehenge as an example.

Please explain why the Incas were technologically superior to Europeans, even though they never discovered the wheel.

I have the feeling I'm beating a dead horse, but if you're still in an explanatory mode:

Please explain how Timbuktu did not become a famous center of scientific advancement, if it had a University where people had mastered ophthalmic surgery. Identify the individuals who discovered such knowledge (like I did with Lister, Koch, and Fleming).

Please explain why, in Africa TODAY you don't have to go more than 10 minutes away from an airport before you are in a street up to your knees in human feces and urine, much like -- er, Dark Ages Europe. Did big bad colonial white races erase the principles of sanitation from the African collective memory?

Question reality, huh? Why don't you question yourself? This is what is meant by "critical thought", and you demonstrate with every post that you are utterly incapable of it. You pretend to know history, but I think you are much more persuaded by a "beautiful description" than you are by legitimate scholarship. Until you know the difference, you will always look the fool.

you don't have to defend Mugabe just because 'rightists' dislike him.

you don't have to defend Mugabe just because 'rightists' dislike him.

"I keep waiting to see proof that you're not stupid, and your arguments are merely based on ignorance. You keep disappointing me. So let's look at just ONE of your fantasies: that the presence of Olmec heads proves the superiority of pre-Columbian mesoamerican culture to contemporary European culture."

i'll always seem stupid and/or ignorant to you. you're a brilliant apologist for imperialism and colonialism and i'm just some dummy that can't accept that white people brought civilization to the world. but i don't mind going back and forth. for such an idiot, i sure seem to get your feathers riled up. wonder why that is?

but ANYWAY, i didn't use the olmec heads to prove the superiority of "pre-columbian (pre-european invasion) mesoamerican culture to contemporary european culture." i held them up as evidence of intercontinental trade between african societies and south american. this occured well before the the pirate columbus opened the floodgates of genocide on the americas.

the olmec heads are sculptures depicting african people that predate columbus by thousands of years. here's a picture of one:

http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/america.html

"Please explain how the presence of megalithic heads proves international trade. "

see above, professor white-mans-burden.

"Please explain why you think pre-iron age technology, such as that required to produce megalithic artifacts, was not present in Europe. Use Stonehenge as an example. "

are you seriously comparing stonehenge to the "megalithic artifcats" found in south america and africa? a pile of rocks on an english hillside vs. the pyramids found in south america and africa?! come now, professor! if you're presenting an argument that compares ancient european culture favorably to the rest of the world, i hope you've got something better than stonehenge up your sleeve.

"Please explain why the Incas were technologically superior to Europeans, even though they never discovered the wheel."

hmmm. you mean besides the breathtaking cities, art and architecture which are considered some of the most magnificant ever seen? how about the technology of the bath which still hadn't been discovered in europe?

"I have the feeling I'm beating a dead horse, but if you're still in an explanatory mode: "

"Please explain how Timbuktu did not become a famous center of scientific advancement, if it had a University where people had mastered ophthalmic surgery. Identify the individuals who discovered such knowledge (like I did with Lister, Koch, and Fleming). "

it WAS a famous center of scientific advancement, professor. it was the intellectual hub of africa, and beyond, while europe was dying of the plague. just search on google or something, before you continue to argue against that fact. you'll really spare yourself some embarrasment. don't have names for the cataract surgery thing. if that discredits the information in your mind its just another example of your white arrogance.

"Please explain why, in Africa TODAY you don't have to go more than 10 minutes away from an airport before you are in a street up to your knees in human feces and urine, much like -- er, Dark Ages Europe. Did big bad colonial white races erase the principles of sanitation from the African collective memory? "

my explanation is colonialism, the very thing that rescued dark ages europe from dark ages europe. whats your explanation professor? is it your contention that since africans live this way today, they also lived this way hundreds of years ago? is that our white nationalist history lesson for today? and so, if africa's such a backwards place where one is knee-deep in shit and piss, why is it that europe has been invading it relentlessly for centuries? oh yeah, i forgot. "white man's burden." we've got a responsiblity to bring god and civilization to the savages. its gods plan for us and a burden we must bear. white professor-types have been saying this for years. dummies like me can't seem to get it straight.

"Question reality, huh? Why don't you question yourself? This is what is meant by "critical thought", and you demonstrate with every post that you are utterly incapable of it. You pretend to know history, but I think you are much more persuaded by a "beautiful description" than you are by legitimate scholarship. Until you know the difference, you will always look the fool."

see thats what i like about the reparations question. while the professor here seems to read more books than "mike," their position is fundamentally the same. white culture is superior culture and this explains why white people seem to do so well in comparison with the rest of humanity. reparations forces people to be upfront about this and thats a good thing. its always good to know where people stand.

"I keep waiting to see proof that you're not stupid, and your arguments are merely based on ignorance. You keep disappointing me. So let's look at just ONE of your fantasies: that the presence of Olmec heads proves the superiority of pre-Columbian mesoamerican culture to contemporary European culture."

i'll always seem stupid and/or ignorant to you. you're a brilliant apologist for imperialism and colonialism and i'm just some dummy that can't accept that white people brought civilization to the world. but i don't mind going back and forth. for such an idiot, i sure seem to get your feathers riled up. wonder why that is?

but ANYWAY, i didn't use the olmec heads to prove the superiority of "pre-columbian (pre-european invasion) mesoamerican culture to contemporary european culture." i held them up as evidence of intercontinental trade between african societies and south american. this occured well before the the pirate columbus opened the floodgates of genocide on the americas.

the olmec heads are sculptures depicting african people that predate columbus by thousands of years. here's a picture of one:

http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/america.html

"Please explain how the presence of megalithic heads proves international trade. "

see above, professor white-mans-burden.

"Please explain why you think pre-iron age technology, such as that required to produce megalithic artifacts, was not present in Europe. Use Stonehenge as an example. "

are you seriously comparing stonehenge to the "megalithic artifcats" found in south america and africa? a pile of rocks on an english hillside vs. the pyramids found in south america and africa?! come now, professor! if you're presenting an argument that compares ancient european culture favorably to the rest of the world, i hope you've got something better than stonehenge up your sleeve.

"Please explain why the Incas were technologically superior to Europeans, even though they never discovered the wheel."

hmmm. you mean besides the breathtaking cities, art and architecture which are considered some of the most magnificant ever seen? how about the technology of the bath which still hadn't been discovered in europe?

"I have the feeling I'm beating a dead horse, but if you're still in an explanatory mode: "

"Please explain how Timbuktu did not become a famous center of scientific advancement, if it had a University where people had mastered ophthalmic surgery. Identify the individuals who discovered such knowledge (like I did with Lister, Koch, and Fleming). "

it WAS a famous center of scientific advancement, professor. it was the intellectual hub of africa, and beyond, while europe was dying of the plague. just search on google or something, before you continue to argue against that fact. you'll really spare yourself some embarrasment. don't have names for the cataract surgery thing. if that discredits the information in your mind its just another example of your white arrogance.

"Please explain why, in Africa TODAY you don't have to go more than 10 minutes away from an airport before you are in a street up to your knees in human feces and urine, much like -- er, Dark Ages Europe. Did big bad colonial white races erase the principles of sanitation from the African collective memory? "

my explanation is colonialism, the very thing that rescued dark ages europe from dark ages europe. whats your explanation professor? is it your contention that since africans live this way today, they also lived this way hundreds of years ago? is that our white nationalist history lesson for today? and so, if africa's such a backwards place where one is knee-deep in shit and piss, why is it that europe has been invading it relentlessly for centuries? oh yeah, i forgot. "white man's burden." we've got a responsiblity to bring god and civilization to the savages. its gods plan for us and a burden we must bear. white professor-types have been saying this for years. dummies like me can't seem to get it straight.

"Question reality, huh? Why don't you question yourself? This is what is meant by "critical thought", and you demonstrate with every post that you are utterly incapable of it. You pretend to know history, but I think you are much more persuaded by a "beautiful description" than you are by legitimate scholarship. Until you know the difference, you will always look the fool."

see thats what i like about the reparations question. while the professor here seems to read more books than "mike," their position is fundamentally the same. white culture is superior culture and this explains why white people seem to do so well in comparison with the rest of humanity. reparations forces people to be upfront about this and thats a good thing. its always good to know where people stand.

"I keep waiting to see proof that you're not stupid, and your arguments are merely based on ignorance. You keep disappointing me. So let's look at just ONE of your fantasies: that the presence of Olmec heads proves the superiority of pre-Columbian mesoamerican culture to contemporary European culture."

i'll always seem stupid and/or ignorant to you. you're a brilliant apologist for imperialism and colonialism and i'm just some dummy that can't accept that white people brought civilization to the world. but i don't mind going back and forth. for such an idiot, i sure seem to get your feathers riled up. wonder why that is?

but ANYWAY, i didn't use the olmec heads to prove the superiority of "pre-columbian (pre-european invasion) mesoamerican culture to contemporary european culture." i held them up as evidence of intercontinental trade between african societies and south american. this occured well before the the pirate columbus opened the floodgates of genocide on the americas.

the olmec heads are sculptures depicting african people that predate columbus by thousands of years. here's a picture of one:

http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/america.html

"Please explain how the presence of megalithic heads proves international trade. "

see above, professor white-mans-burden.

"Please explain why you think pre-iron age technology, such as that required to produce megalithic artifacts, was not present in Europe. Use Stonehenge as an example. "

are you seriously comparing stonehenge to the "megalithic artifcats" found in south america and africa? a pile of rocks on an english hillside vs. the pyramids found in south america and africa?! come now, professor! if you're presenting an argument that compares ancient european culture favorably to the rest of the world, i hope you've got something better than stonehenge up your sleeve.

"Please explain why the Incas were technologically superior to Europeans, even though they never discovered the wheel."

hmmm. you mean besides the breathtaking cities, art and architecture which are considered some of the most magnificant ever seen? how about the technology of the bath which still hadn't been discovered in europe?

"I have the feeling I'm beating a dead horse, but if you're still in an explanatory mode: "

"Please explain how Timbuktu did not become a famous center of scientific advancement, if it had a University where people had mastered ophthalmic surgery. Identify the individuals who discovered such knowledge (like I did with Lister, Koch, and Fleming). "

it WAS a famous center of scientific advancement, professor. it was the intellectual hub of africa, and beyond, while europe was dying of the plague. just search on google or something, before you continue to argue against that fact. you'll really spare yourself some embarrasment. don't have names for the cataract surgery thing. if that discredits the information in your mind its just another example of your white arrogance.

"Please explain why, in Africa TODAY you don't have to go more than 10 minutes away from an airport before you are in a street up to your knees in human feces and urine, much like -- er, Dark Ages Europe. Did big bad colonial white races erase the principles of sanitation from the African collective memory? "

my explanation is colonialism, the very thing that rescued dark ages europe from dark ages europe. whats your explanation professor? is it your contention that since africans live this way today, they also lived this way hundreds of years ago? is that our white nationalist history lesson for today? and so, if africa's such a backwards place where one is knee-deep in shit and piss, why is it that europe has been invading it relentlessly for centuries? oh yeah, i forgot. "white man's burden." we've got a responsiblity to bring god and civilization to the savages. its gods plan for us and a burden we must bear. white professor-types have been saying this for years. dummies like me can't seem to get it straight.

"Question reality, huh? Why don't you question yourself? This is what is meant by "critical thought", and you demonstrate with every post that you are utterly incapable of it. You pretend to know history, but I think you are much more persuaded by a "beautiful description" than you are by legitimate scholarship. Until you know the difference, you will always look the fool."

see thats what i like about the reparations question. while the professor here seems to read more books than "mike," their position is fundamentally the same. white culture is superior culture and this explains why white people seem to do so well in comparison with the rest of humanity. reparations forces people to be upfront about this and thats a good thing. its always good to know where people stand.

"I keep waiting to see proof that you're not stupid, and your arguments are merely based on ignorance. You keep disappointing me. So let's look at just ONE of your fantasies: that the presence of Olmec heads proves the superiority of pre-Columbian mesoamerican culture to contemporary European culture."

i'll always seem stupid and/or ignorant to you. you're a brilliant apologist for imperialism and colonialism and i'm just some dummy that can't accept that white people brought civilization to the world. but i don't mind going back and forth. for such an idiot, i sure seem to get your feathers riled up. wonder why that is?

but ANYWAY, i didn't use the olmec heads to prove the superiority of "pre-columbian (pre-european invasion) mesoamerican culture to contemporary european culture." i held them up as evidence of intercontinental trade between african societies and south american. this occured well before the the pirate columbus opened the floodgates of genocide on the americas.

the olmec heads are sculptures depicting african people that predate columbus by thousands of years. here's a picture of one:

http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/america.html

"Please explain how the presence of megalithic heads proves international trade. "

see above, professor white-mans-burden.

"Please explain why you think pre-iron age technology, such as that required to produce megalithic artifacts, was not present in Europe. Use Stonehenge as an example. "

are you seriously comparing stonehenge to the "megalithic artifcats" found in south america and africa? a pile of rocks on an english hillside vs. the pyramids found in south america and africa?! come now, professor! if you're presenting an argument that compares ancient european culture favorably to the rest of the world, i hope you've got something better than stonehenge up your sleeve.

"Please explain why the Incas were technologically superior to Europeans, even though they never discovered the wheel."

hmmm. you mean besides the breathtaking cities, art and architecture which are considered some of the most magnificant ever seen? how about the technology of the bath which still hadn't been discovered in europe?

"I have the feeling I'm beating a dead horse, but if you're still in an explanatory mode: "

"Please explain how Timbuktu did not become a famous center of scientific advancement, if it had a University where people had mastered ophthalmic surgery. Identify the individuals who discovered such knowledge (like I did with Lister, Koch, and Fleming). "

it WAS a famous center of scientific advancement, professor. it was the intellectual hub of africa, and beyond, while europe was dying of the plague. just search on google or something, before you continue to argue against that fact. you'll really spare yourself some embarrasment. don't have names for the cataract surgery thing. if that discredits the information in your mind its just another example of your white arrogance.

"Please explain why, in Africa TODAY you don't have to go more than 10 minutes away from an airport before you are in a street up to your knees in human feces and urine, much like -- er, Dark Ages Europe. Did big bad colonial white races erase the principles of sanitation from the African collective memory? "

my explanation is colonialism, the very thing that rescued dark ages europe from dark ages europe. whats your explanation professor? is it your contention that since africans live this way today, they also lived this way hundreds of years ago? is that our white nationalist history lesson for today? and so, if africa's such a backwards place where one is knee-deep in shit and piss, why is it that europe has been invading it relentlessly for centuries? oh yeah, i forgot. "white man's burden." we've got a responsiblity to bring god and civilization to the savages. its gods plan for us and a burden we must bear. white professor-types have been saying this for years. dummies like me can't seem to get it straight.

"Question reality, huh? Why don't you question yourself? This is what is meant by "critical thought", and you demonstrate with every post that you are utterly incapable of it. You pretend to know history, but I think you are much more persuaded by a "beautiful description" than you are by legitimate scholarship. Until you know the difference, you will always look the fool."

see thats what i like about the reparations question. while the professor here seems to read more books than "mike," their position is fundamentally the same. white culture is superior culture and this explains why white people seem to do so well in comparison with the rest of humanity. reparations forces people to be upfront about this and thats a good thing. its always good to know where people stand.

"the olmec heads are sculptures depicting african people that predate columbus by thousands of years. here's a picture of one:

http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/america.html "

That looks more like Buddha to me. Are you sure it wasn't the asians who came to America first?

what responsibilities do Saudi Arabia have to pay reperations? They enslaved Africans up until the 1970's and they support the Arab slave owners in Sudan who "own" the natives.

>we provide food as a fundraiser for the uhuru movement.

That's not what I mean.

The reparations which are being called for involve all non-African Americans to pay restitution (money) to all descendants of former slaves. So, my desire is for you to lead by example. You and all others who believe as you do should pool whatever money you intend on giving into one giant account and distribute it. You need to obtain the addresses and locations of ALL descendants of former slaves in all 50 states and around the world whereever they may be and send them their portion of what you have collected. You do this, you demonstrate to me that you're serious about this. Anything short of that, (i.e. providing food as a fundraiser for the uhuru movement) and this is nothing but a "I feel guilty because I am from white European descent" feel-good money-grab. Not interested in anything to do with that.

Mugabe really is bad
by take it easy Friday February 07, 2003 at 08:32 PM

<you don't have to defend Mugabe just because 'rightists' dislike him.>

I WAS NOT defending Mugabe.

Mugabe is a capitalist, a bigot, and a swine.

Wow, just like most of the rightists on this site.

My point was that rightists who criticize him don't know what the fuck they're talking about. That's all.

I think that this country (all non Viet Nam Veterans) should be made pay reparations to all Viet Nam Combat Veterans. We were forced to enter the slave army of the republic at the "wage" of $78.50 per month.

We were exposed to horrid living conditions and forced to work as much as twenty hours daily with on time off. We were fed canned starvation rations and exposed to Miliara, Typhoid, Hepatitus, Jungle Fever, Trench foot, skin diseases, diabities and all forms of maladies from herbicide injestion. We lived outside in holes for months at a time in the cold rain and heat. We lived withourt sanatary facilities. We were bitten, stung and attacked by every vile insect living, constantly being in fear of our existance.

When all that was over came the hard part. Combat infantrymen sufered 78% of all ground casualties in the war , meaning that 10% of the soldiers in the combat arena suffered vast amounts of casualties with a mathmatecial ratio of 100%.

Death and mutilation were the result of our enslavement. Pain and suffering from the traumatic loss of our fellow slaves was the order of every day. Being forced to kill others for survival and all that implies to the soul of men.

Moreover we , the enslaved, are still alive and in many cases still suffering from the results of our enslavement. Yes, you can actually pay the people who suffered the damages. How bout it? Anyone think I have a case??

Hmm...I'm definitely a capitalist. Definitely have my swinish moments too, particularly after a half-dozen pints of Guiness. Don't see how I'm a bigot, though, as I think every human should be given an equal chance to succeed or to fail.

What ever happened to the comment posted by "Red_Monkey"

"come through and learn that reparations is a positive thing, not a negative thing. even for white people"

As another white male, I am all in favor of reparations, as long as reparations bring an end to "affirmative action", as blatant a form of racism if there ever was one.

Attaway to categorically refute me with dubious assertions! Good boy.

Funny, those Olmec heads don't look the least bit African to me. I guess they do to you, but I don't agree so where's your proof there was trade?

You missed a hell of a post untill they srtiped it off the site.

well, have you noticed that long list of indymedias listed at the bottom of the page. All of those are independent. All they have in common is their name, and often friendly arrangements are made to use software made by some SF programmers, or others. However, each group makes its own decisions. It would be possible, in any one of these towns - say Portland, for people to disagree and not be able to work with each other.
The logical solution for this would be for the different groups to found their own indymedia. For instance, there could be Multnomah county indymedia or Oregon indymedia and Portland at the same time.

Similarly, if red monkey doesn't like the current editorial maneuvers, he should found Daly City imc, or SanFran imc, and then people would be free to choose to go to his site, as he prefers to run it, or to go to this site, and these people prefer to run it. In fact, this is how most workplaces and businesses operate under the current american system.

"You and all others who believe as you do should pool whatever money you intend on giving into one giant account and distribute it."

i don't have a lot of money. but i do have some skills and some time that i recognize come as a consequence of the pillage of africa and the theft of the indigenous peoples' land. is it o.k. with you if i raise money at a street fair through the above-mentioned assets i do have, and allow those funds to serve a movement for african self-determination and liberation? can that be the way i express reparations?

"You need to obtain the addresses and locations of ALL descendants of former slaves in all 50 states and around the world whereever they may be and send them their portion of what you have collected."

what makes you think i'm stopping at chattel slavery when it comes to why africans are owed reparations?

"You do this, you demonstrate to me that you're serious about this. Anything short of that, (i.e. providing food as a fundraiser for the uhuru movement) and this is nothing but a 'I feel guilty because I am from white European descent' feel-good money-grab. Not interested in anything to do with that."

whats wrong with feeling guilty for being "white European descent" in america? did we not inherit stolen wealth and stolen land simply because of our national origin and our ability to get from europe to here (beyond those who did the stealing outright)? is acquiring resources through theft not wrong? is it not a natural human emotion to feel guilt when you are part of something that is wrong?

feeling guilty helps us understand that we need to rectify our behavior. its an instict that is millions of years in the making. it helped us survive as social animals, when part of us just wants to take everything we desire without regard for others. this must be balanced against the fact that we need others for our own survival. if, as a species, we didn't feel guilty when we did something wrong, we wouldn't be here today to have this discussion on the internet. we'd have been eaten up by the library of bigger, faster, sharper-toothed animals out there, who could give a rats as for guilt or any of the other complex emotions us humans developed to survive.

one way to avoid guilt is to dehumanize those you steal from and otherwise abuse. you can use words such as "nigger" or "wetback" or "crack addict" or "criminal." that way the person you are taking from isn't really a preson anyway, so why feel guilty? another is to turn history into an ahistorial series of events for which you have no relation: "i didn't own any slaves! i didn't kill any indians! it isn't my fault!" say this enough times, and you don't feel as guilty stepping over people sleeping on the street and begging you for your pocket change. say this enough times and you don't have to think about the genocide that was required for any european to have a mailing address inside north america.

but don't fall for those traps. don't turn your back on your guilt, jer. those feeling are there to help you rejoin the human family, and be a productive member of the global society. your subjective emotions are there to help you right the historic wrongs. i hope you and others join us on the street fair this weekend.

in any case see you on the 16th! you'll find me selling food to support the movement for african liberation! no war in iraq!

uhuru means freedom! matthew

ps: please join us on february 15th to be part of a discussion on reparations:

http://www.uhurureparations.org/

Class Notes Adolph L. Reed Jr.

The Case Against Reparations

The notion that white America, however defined, owes reparations to
black Americans for slavery and its legacy has been around for some
time. Until recently, its most dramatic eruption into public life was in 1969,
when James Forman, the former chairman of the Student Nonviolent
Coordinating Committee (SNCC), led a protest at New York's liberal Riverside
Church and presented a "Black Manifesto" that demanded, among other things,
$500 million in reparations to black Americans from white churches and
synagogues. The idea lingered on the periphery of the public agenda for a few
years. In 1972, Jesse Jackson's Operation PUSH and the National Economics
Association, a black economists' group, attempted to reintroduce it around the
Presidential election in conjunction with a demand for a $900 million "freedom
budget."

For the next two decades, the idea of organizing to demand reparations circulated
mainly within politically marginal, nationalist circles. It did not gain much traction
even among black activists.

During the last half-dozen years or so, however, the issue has been threatening to
come in from the margins. Partly stimulated by the successful pursuit of
compensation for Japanese Americans who were interned by the U.S. government
during World War II and for victims of Nazi slave labor, talk of a movement to
demand reparations for black Americans has been spreading.

I've watched this with curiosity and bemusement. I imagined that the reparations talk
would evaporate because it seemed so clearly a political dead end. No such luck.

Publication of The Debt: What America Owes to Blacks (E.P. Dutton, 2000) by
Randall Robinson, the respected president of TransAfrica, the organization that
played a central role in the U.S. movement against apartheid in South Africa, seems
to have propelled the reparations issue into the spotlight. Now it seems to be
everywhere--in special features on network television, in mainstream publications
like Harper's and The New York Times, and all over the black-oriented media.

How has this happened? And what is its significance? To put it more provocatively,
how does a project that seems so obviously a nonstarter in American politics come
to capture so much of the public imagination? After all, support for affirmative action
has eroded significantly, and reparations raises the ante on compensatory policy
exponentially. Why has this idea attained currency now?

Answering these questions requires understanding that the call for reparations
blends material, symbolic, and psychological components.

The material component is the most obvious, since the call for reparations responds
to the actual harm inflicted on blacks during and after slavery. This component
includes direct legacies, such as the federal government's failure to fulfill the promise
of Emancipation by adopting the Radical Republican proposals during
Reconstruction that would have expropriated the plantations in the South and
divided them among the freed people, thus establishing a black yeomanry of
independent stakeholders. It also includes the federal government's further
capitulation to the former slaveholders by accepting their disenfranchisement of
black voters later in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. As a result, black
citizens were removed from effective participation in public life. What followed was
the imposition of the white supremacist regime of official political and economic
apartheid that reigned in the South for the first two-thirds of the twentieth century.

The indirect material legacy of slavery includes such explicitly discriminatory
practices as the Federal Housing Administration's enforcement of racially
exclusionary "restrictive covenants" in its lending policies officially until 1948 and
unofficially for some years thereafter. This practice severely disadvantaged black
people's pursuit of home ownership, the principal form of capital accumulation for
most Americans.

The effects of unequal education, labor market discrimination, and publicly initiated
and supported ghettoization are further indirect material legacies of slavery. We
could also include the effects of New Deal compromises with Southern
Democrats--largely racially inspired--that excluded most black workers from initial
coverage under Social Security and agricultural assistance.

That blacks have been systematically disadvantaged as a result of slavery and its
aftermath there can be no doubt. That is the strength of the material case for
reparations.

The symbolic component of the reparations campaign seems to center on public
acknowledgment of the injustices inflicted on black people historically in this
country. On the one hand, this could promote public education about the real
history of the United States, although that is a project that does not require the
rhetoric of reparations. On the other hand, it fits the Clintonoid tenor of sappy
public apologies and maudlin psychobabble about collective pain and healing.

Robinson, for his part, seems fixated on pursuing racial parity in monuments and
statuary--perhaps a function of his long years in Washington, D.C., and his growing
up in Richmond, Virginia, two cities in which the politics of public monuments loom
larger than elsewhere. (And how much would you like to bet that that's as far as the
restitution would go? Elites will always prefer symbolic gestures to material ones:
"Let's see, should we give them college tuition and affordable housing or a heartfelt
apology and a few monuments and plaques? Hmmm, which will it be, which will it
be?")

The psychological component, though, is most revealing of the dubious politics that
undergirds this movement. The demand for reparations is held to be important as a
means of raising consciousness among black people, whether or not it can be won.
But consciousness of what? Among more populist or radical adherents, this view
rests on the premise--a vestige of the nationalist/anti-imperialist radicalism that
evolved from Black Power--that mobilizing black people to fight for a better world
requires first rectifying their understanding of who they are and where they come
from in order to build on the principle of racial solidarity. Of course, cultivation of a
general understanding of history is useful, perhaps necessary, for developing and
sustaining an insurgent politics, and it's a good thing in its own right. However, it's
more than questionable that people must--or even will--mobilize around earlier
generations' grievances to pursue current objectives.

The deeper appeal of reparations talk for its proponents is to create or stress a
sense of racial peoplehood as the primary basis for political identity. This
movement's psychological project is grounded on two beliefs: first, that
rank-and-file black people suffer from an improper or defective sense of identity,
and second, that an important task of political action is to restore or correct racial
consciousness that the legacy of slavery is supposed to have distorted or destroyed.

Among some strains of cultural nationalists, this view unabashedly reproduces the
old "damage thesis," which was criticized by historian Daryl Michael Scott in his
book Contempt and Pity: Social Policy and the Image of the Damaged Black
Psyche, 1880-1996 (University of North Carolina, 1997). According to this thesis,
slavery and its aftermath left black Americans without cultural moorings and
therefore especially vulnerable to various social pathologies. This notion has been
the foundation of academic and journalistic slanders of black poor and working
people. It was famously perpetrated by Daniel Patrick Moynihan in his scurrilous
1965 report, "The Negro Family: A Case for National Action," and it underlies
contemporary notions of a self-destructive black urban underclass.

Randall Robinson's argument for pursuit of reparations hinges on this view of the
black American population--lucky petit bourgeois people like himself excepted, of
course--as defective and in need of moral and psychological repair. The idea
resonates with middle class noblesse oblige and a commitment to a racial politics
that ensconces a particular guiding role for upper class blacks. Those are, after all,
the people who can conduct the finely calibrated analyses that determine what forms
and magnitude just compensation should take; they are the people who would stand
to administer whatever compromise palliatives are likely to ensue from this activity.

But the question of compensation opens a plethora of technical problems. Should
payments go to individuals or to some presumably representative corporate entity?
If the former, who qualifies as a recipient? Would descendants of people who had
been enslaved elsewhere (for instance, Brazil or the Caribbean) be eligible? And
what of those no longer legally black people with slave ancestors? As a friend of
mine has suggested, these issues could produce a lively trade for genealogists, DNA
testers, and other such quacks, and already some seem to be rising to the
opportunity. These ambiguities, moreover, expose the faultiness of comparisons to
payments to victims of Japanese internment and Nazi slave labor camps, who were
identifiable individuals whose experience of the ultimate injustice was direct.

If the recipient is to be some corporate entity, as Robinson and others suggest, how
can its representativeness and accountability be determined? If the body is a
development fund, who would control it and how would the decision be made?
Robinson has suggested that philanthropic agencies be the grantees, but which ones
and to whom would they be accountable? This talk--as is standard in contemporary
black politics--presumes a coherent, knowable black agenda that can be
determined outside of democratic, participatory processes among those in whose
names decisions are to be made and resources allocated.

What strikes me as most incomprehensible about the reparations movement is its
complete disregard for the simplest, most mundanely pragmatic question about any
political mobilization: How can we imagine building a political force that would
enable us to prevail on this issue?

But the question ultimately does not arise because reparations talk is rooted in a
different kind of politics, a politics of elite-brokerage and entreaty to the ruling class
and its official conscience, the philanthropic foundations, for racial side-payments.
"Until America's white ruling class accepts the fact that the book never closes on
massive unredressed social wrongs, America can have no future as one people,"
Robinson writes. Lest there be any doubt about the limited social vision that makes
such an entreaty plausible, he brushes away the deepest foundations of American
inequality: "Lamentably, there will always be poverty." His beef is that black
Americans are statistically overrepresented at the bottom. This is a protest politics
that depends on the good will of those who hold power. By definition, it is not
equipped to challenge existing relations of power and distribution other than
marginally, with token gestures.

There's a more insidious dynamic at work in this politics as well, which helps us
understand why the reparations idea suddenly has spread so widely through
mainstream political discourse. We are in one of those rare moments in American
history--like the 1880s and 1890s and the Great Depression--when common
circumstances of economic and social insecurity have strengthened the potential for
building broad solidarity across race, gender, and other identities around shared
concerns of daily life. These are concerns that only the minority of comfortable and
well-off can dismiss in favor of monuments and apologies and a politics of
psychobabble, concerns like access to quality health care, the right to a decent and
dignified livelihood, affordable housing, quality education for all. They can be
pursued effectively only by struggling to unite a wide section of the American
population that is denied those essential social benefits or lives in fear of losing them.
Isn't it interesting that at such a moment the corporate-dominated, opinion-shaping
media discover and project a demand for racially defined reparations that cuts
precisely against building such solidarity?

I know that many activists who have taken up the cause of reparations otherwise
hold a politics quite at odds with the limitations that I've described here. To some
extent, I suspect their involvement stems from an old reflex of attempting to locate a
progressive kernel in the nationalist sensibility. It certainly is an expression of a
generally admirable commitment to go where people seem to be moving.

But we must ask: Where can this motion go?



Adolph L. Reed Jr. is a professor of political science on the graduate faculty at
the New School for Social Research in New York City and is a member of the
Interim National Council of the Labor Party. His most recent book is "Class
Notes: Posing as Politics and Other Thoughts on the American Scene" (New
Press, 2000).

because that article is a serious piece of shit.

adolph reed takes paragraph apon paragraph to say almost nothing. the only thing thats clear about his position is that he is against reparations and that he is concerned that the struggle for reparations just won't go away.

he seems to be justifying his position with an agreement that black people have been harmed from slavery, but that black people don't have a right to a collective identity, and trying to make reparations is too complicated anyway.

he also employs some severely twisted and backwards logic. to reed, acknowledgement that the terrible poverty, prison rates, lack of education, and other manifestations of colonailism experienced in the black community stem from being victimized by the united states is somehow patronizing to black people. you'd have to ask him how that adds up. he certainly doesn't explain it in this worthless article.

his reactionary politic is not surprising however. his credentials include sitting on some council of the "labor party." this is a white left institution which would obviously oppose self-determination and national conciousness of african people. the labor party is rooted in the 'trade union movement." trade unions were born out of the post civil war period, from white workers defending their relatively good paying jobs from the recently "emancipated" african slaves who would now be competing for their jobs. since reparations are owed not only by the government but all institutions which have benefitted from the economic, political and social oppression of african people, trade unions would have a material interest in keeping the question stifled. this article is a manifestation of this interest.

defenders of this anti-reparations piece will point out that adolph reed is an african american. this gives his position no more legitimacy than it does colin powell's.

"but i do have some skills and some time that i recognize come as a consequence of the pillage of africa and the theft of the indigenous peoples' land. "

Your skills and YOUR TIME come from slavery? Everyone in this world has 24 hours every day, no more, no less, black or white, whether their country had slavery or not...

"African National Reparations Organization of the African People's Socialist Party calculated $4.1 trillion dollars was owed to African people in the United States for stolen labor alone"

Re-fucking-diculous. You're basically saying take ALL the money that exists as cash in the USA, then empty everyone's checking accounts, and hand it over. And then there's untold trillions more for everything else.

Tim

"Your skills and YOUR TIME come from slavery? Everyone in this world has 24 hours every day, no more, no less, black or white, whether their country had slavery or not... "

don't be stupid. most people have to sell their time in the form of work in order to survive. under slavery, a black persons time was part of the property of the slave master. countless billions of hours of time were directly stolen from african people to build the economy of the united states. they did work, so white people didn't have to. even today, most white workers in the u.s. get weekends and holidays off. many even get paid vacations. these are all benefits which come from living in the wealthiest nation which has ever existed on the planet. the foundation of that wealth is the domestic colonialism of african people and the theft of the land and genocide of its owners, the indigenous people.

in colonized nations, people work 16 hours a day picking coffee or bananas or some other resource we consume here in "industrial" nations. so they don't have their time. we have their time.

Hey doorMatt- I know you hated the movie "barbershop"-- the Ice Cube movie that millions of black folks ( as well as other races) saw and enjoyed. The movie slams reparations heavily-- I encourage white folks, who think blacks seriously support reparations, to see this movie made by black people with a black cast. I want to know Matt-- Is Ice Cube controlled by whitey? what about all the other blacks in the film?

Note: I'm not saying Barbershop is the greatest movie; however I think its probably pretty accurate about black folks ambivilance towards reparations. Thats why only about a thousand people showed up to the millions for reparations march in D.C.

"in colonized nations, people work 16 hours a day picking coffee or bananas or some other resource we consume here in "industrial" nations. so they don't have their time. we have their time."

What the fuck are you going on about? Are they giving us those bananas for free? Of course not. Every post you make gets more ludicrous. Are you REALLY this stupid or is all this "reparation" nonsense some sorta performance art?

"I encourage white folks, who think blacks seriously support reparations, to see this movie made by black people with a black cast."

"Barbershop" was made by MGM, tricky. (and i'm called stupid). last i checked the executives of mgm weren't pretty far fucking from black people. its a movie made by white people that promotes ideas that white people want black and white people to have, such as the idea that black people don't really want reparations and reparations wouldn't really be helpful to the black community.

sure a lot of black people went to see it. it was a funny movie with a predominantly black cast. but if you want to find out if african people want reparations, go out to east oakland and ask them. don't go to hollywood for a genuine black perspective.

the "millions for reparations" march was poorly organized. that's why it had a low turnout. the "million man march", which took upwards of a million africans to washington d.c. to "atone for their sins"(!), was well organized. that's why the people showed up. you don't really think most african people think they need to get together in washington d.c. to "atone for their sins" do you? there will be more actions around reparations and they will get bigger.

"ice cube" is a petty bourgieosie, two-faced, buck dancing fool. he does what will make him rich, such as that barbershop movie. download some tracks from "geurillas in the mist" by da lench mob, and find out what ice cube says about white people when he thinks white people aren't listening and he's trying to make a buck off the black community. check out "fuck you and your heroes" "buck that devil" and the title track in particular.

Sure the blacks in the ghettos want reparations. It sure beats working.

Pay Me Now

My African-American neighbors are still waiting on their checks from you and those like you.

Your reasoning is screwed up. Reparations are going nowhere. I won't pay. Neither will others.

Any reparations that doesn't immediately place blacks on "equal footing" with the rest of society is a waste of time. (I don't believe they aren't on equal footing, and most of my [And I hate even using this term because I don't think of them in this way. They're just my friends like all my friends are just my friends.] black friends don't feel slighted by society either.) You want to package this thing better, here's how. Reparations are a one time payment to "even the score". Once that is done, all affirmative action (i.e. hiring quotas, etc...) is eliminated. All lawsuits based upon racial discrimination are eliminated. Race can no longer be used as a "crutch" on which to demand public assistance. Race can no longer be used to divide up congressional districts. No more congressional black caucus. Welfare payments to black minorities who are able to work are eliminated. Speak to it in economic terms, in terms of fairness, along the lines that this one-time lump-sum payment is less costly in the long run than to continue years and years of the current system, and you may have an argument. My guess is this won't sit well with the black community you represent. They want reparations AND free handouts. Ain't gonna happen.

"Reparations must be made to all descendants of all people who at any time since the beginning of recorded history were oppressed, otherwise you are unequally burdening individuals to pay reparations to another people when they themselves should be receiving reparations. Since all people on Earth could undoubtly trace their ancestry back to a family member who was likely oppressed by people at some point in history...."

then we all have some form of reparations due to us in one form or another from someone.

-----------

matt has yet to address that. Reparations for all people regardless of race. No statute of limitations on reparations. We all deserve them.

"matt has yet to address that. Reparations for all people regardless of race. No statute of limitations on reparations. We all deserve them. "

so then you are opposed to reparations that have already been given to jews for wwII and japanese in the u.s. for being held in concentration camps during the same war? because no one should get reparations unless everyone gets reparations?

do i understand you correctly?

Reparations for living victims of slavery, not descendants. That would be consistent with the jewish/japanese wwii settlements.

That would also mean Saudi Arabia owes a lot of money to their Philipino servants.

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/68748.htm

"Reparations for living victims of slavery, not descendants. That would be consistent with the jewish/japanese wwii settlements."


the isreali government gets reparations for wwII, not only individuals.

in anycase your argument is pathetic and opportunist. by your logic, you can spend several lifetimes amassing wealth off slavery, (not only "slavemasters," but insurance agents, printers, ship builders, textile companies, etc.) and passing that along to your children. likewise, an african can spend several lifetimes working for free and having nothing but poverty to pass along to her children. and that's cool as long as we are at least a generation away from the original crime.

the real reason that the white left is opposed to reparations for slavery is that they are united with their capitalist rulers when it comes to keeping the pedestal of wealth unchallenged.
that is why the position on reparations barely differs between the white left and the white right in this country.

let these "labor groups" that oppose reparations, like the one that this joke adolph reed represents , find out their constituents had to work ONE DAY for free, and there would be international strikes! but its cool with them that africans worked under slavery for hundreds of years. "its all water under the bridge, now!" "it's too complicated anyway!" fucking hypocrits.

white guy: "Reparations for living victims of slavery, not descendants. That would be consistent with the jewish/japanese wwii settlements."


JA: White guy needs to read a book before he spouts off. Not only have the direct victims of WWII Jewish and Japanese internment been paid reparations, so have their DECENDENTS! And in the case of Jewish victims so have, indirectly, Jews who were not even born during WWII and had NO relatives who were camp survivors: this was done in reparations that have been paid to the state of Israel. Jews who were not even alive during WWII have been paid by Germans who were not even alive (or were children) during WWII -- especially in that there are no Nazis in the German government or German corporations today. Native American DESCENDENTS have been paid a poverty pittance in reparations via payments to reservations. There is nothing unusual in American history about paying money to non-direct DESCENDENT victims for injuries suffered by direct victim relatives -- this is done in American courts every day in individual and class action lawsuits. This is done when one can show injury to the families, descendents or class AS A WHOLE!


I haven't been able to get back to it recently, but a lot of this has already been hashed out in the thread

Affirmative Action or Reparations?

http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/01/1566083_comment.php#1566470

but I guess that white guys -- who have gotten all sorts of reparations and handouts in American history for not suffering anywhere near the levels of minorities -- or not suffering at all(!) -- will always (psychol) 'trip' over reparations for minorities. (The U.S. Congress waited until almost all of the Japanese-American internment victims were dead, and then only gave them $20,OOO, which the elderly direct victims or their descendent relatives accepted before all the direct victims eventually died.)

You want me to write you a check? Just go out and rob some people, if you feel justified in doing that.

You have about as much chance with your little reparations club as Robert Mugabe has of winning the Presidency of America. That would be good for you, since he is the reigning world champion of reparations.

Supporters of reparations are just psychos in a circle jerk. This has no bearing on reality.

anyway this is getting boring.

SLAVERY REPARATIONS COLUMNS -- SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE ; BROWN UNIVERSITY'S BROWN DAILY HERALD

For an intelligent analysis and historical review on the issue of reparations you can go to:

Shorter version--

The Issue is Racism:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2001/03/26/ED155503.DTL

(including email this to a friend link)

follow-up letter to the editor--

Twisted Claim:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2001/03/27/ED187756.DTL


Longer version (in the Brown University Daily Herald and several other university newspapers, as well as available online):

Horowitz’s ad uses racist arguments to further claims (4/10/2001):

http://www.browndailyherald.com/stories.asp?dbversion=2&storyID=4433

(including email this to a friend link)

At the University of California-Berkeley, on his latest anti-African American, racial-vendetta crusade, David Horowitz abruptly turned tail and bolted, after his speech at UC Berkeley (March 15) after only the third questioner [I!] challenged him. People of color have rightly condemned his “reparations” ad and ranting speech as racist.

Unfortunately, there was always a handful of either loosely wrapped or intellectually thin leftists in the 1960s (e.g., Clarence Thomas) who ultimately felt that the sails blowing to the right-wing were financially fuller and decided to go with that.

Horowitz runs his attack operations out of Los Angeles. His headquarters is the harmless sounding Center for the Study of Popular Culture. But Horowitz’s activities and his recent book, “Hating Whitey,” are anything but harmless. His book attacks African-American civil rights activists as being anti-white racists. Horowitz has become a professional huckster who basically makes a living off of disparaging black folks.

In the meantime, Horowitz raises to a fine political art the same “self-victimology” that he generally attacks African Americans as perpetrating. Here Horowitz cloaks himself as the ultimate “free speech martyr.” But David Horowitz was not out to promote free speech. David Horowitz was out to promote himself — as usual.

Many whites, including UC Berkeley Chancellor Robert Berdahl, have tried to twist Horowitz’s ad issue into a “free speech” issue. So it is obvious that, even in the year 2001, many whites, including the chancellor, still don’t recognize blatant racism, suitably couched. This is a despicable state of affairs in a so-called institution of “higher learning,” to borrow from the title of Ice Cube’s rap song on racism in college.

In a format perverting the U.S. Constitution’s Bill of Rights, Horowitz claimed that reparations to African Americans have already been paid in the form of welfare. In a racist mindset at the foundation of all his arguments, Horowitz thus stereotypes most blacks as living on welfare. Apart from that being false, welfare is provided to people because they are poor, not because they are black.

In a sick twist, Horowitz then claims that not only does America not owe blacks reparations but that, in fact, it is blacks who owe America a greater debt — for ending slavery. He further says that blacks today have actually benefited from the national wealth that slavery helped to create. Would any newspaper publish an ad that said that the Jews actually benefited from the Jewish Holocaust, because that’s how they got Israel?

So Horowitz believes that the nation that immorally accepted brutal slavery then gave blacks a gift by eventually outlawing the practice and replacing it with American Jim Crow apartheid practices. By the same perverted logic, a kidnap-beating-rape victim would owe a debt to her brutal rapist, if he finally let her go free.

In another twisted claim, Horowitz said that there were thousands of blacks who also owned slaves. Actually, it was free blacks who, in many cases, purchased their own family members to protect them in and from slave-owning states.

In his ad Horowitz also claimed that most Americans have no connection to slavery. This is patently false: Slavery has spawned a legacy of racial oppression that exists to this day. As a result of slavery, whites today have inherited a preferential advantage [and greater wealth, individually and as a nation, from slavery, Jim Crow apartheid, and ongoing institutional discrimination].

Southern post-Civil War laws like the “Black Codes” made it illegal for African Americans to work for themselves. From Tulsa, Okla., to Rosewood, Fla., African Americans were later told to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps, and when they did, successful African-American business towns and districts were often destroyed by rioting whites or, even later, by “urban renewal.”

For an enlightening discourse on the reparations issue, Randall Robinson, head of TransAfrica, the organization that spearheaded the American divestment movement against then-apartheid South Africa, has written the book “The Debt: What America Owes to Blacks.”

Horowitz’s ad not only invokes racist stereotypes but also relies on raising straw man arguments to justify its claims. Over and over, he asserts the usual specious argument that not all whites benefited from slavery. That is false anyway: Whites benefited as a nation.

But, his argument is legally irrelevant. Many Americans don’t directly benefit from all national policies. But the arguments for reparations aren’t made on the basis of whether every white person directly gained from slavery (just as the debts of a corporation don’t depend on who it comprises). The arguments are made on the basis that the United States itself institutionalized slavery and protected it by law.

As the government is an entity that survives generations, its debts and obligations survive the lifespan of any particular individuals. As a citizen of the United States, one not only enjoys the rights and privileges of citizenship but also shares the *debts* and *liabilities* of the nation.

Present-day Americans cannot evade national debts by claiming they were incurred by, and only benefited, a prior generation. Thus, the moral debt arising from 350 years of free, forced, brutal labor and practically free “Jim Crow” bitter labor for millions of blacks — barely ending in the 1960s — is an obligation the United States cannot ignore. Nor can the United States evade a moral debt merely because the direct victims have died. The descendents of slavery have inherited a right to some meaningful form of restitution because they still greatly inherit its legacy.

No government would make the descendents of each beneficiary pay the descendents of each victim for even an inhumane national policy whose detriment still exists. Thus, governments make restitution to victims as a group or class. This is a debt that was once promised [and repeatedly asked to honor] but soon abandoned by the United States.

Finally, Horowitz was forced to admit that the First Amendment does *NOT* require any newspaper to accept a paid ad. [That's when he turned tail and ran off!] But newspapers should have moral standards below which they would reject any ad, especially an incendiary publicity stunt. The First Amendment does, however, allow a newspaper to express regret, upon reflection, for printing a self-promoting, morally obscene ad.

The fact that the Daily Californian, Chancellor Berdahl, The Brown Daily Herald, Brown University President Blumstein and many white students don’t recognize just how racist the ad was is shocking.

Wow, you found a racist opposed to your views. I guess that means you're right.

A few facts that some of you might want to consider, and I'd like to think my opinion may amount to a little more, considering I am of African Descent.

1. Germany is not America. What they do with Israel is their business.

2. The Japanese reparations were paid to those who were imprisoned or to the next of kin, had that person desceased. End of story.

3. Native Americans, still live, technically, on their own land. We occupied the entire country, fought wars for land, and the Natives lost. They are now fighting back by suckering our money away from us with Casino's. More power to them.

4. Who determines who gets paid and who does the paying? Multiple generations ago, I've got a german guy in my family. I'm fairly certain he was white. Do I then owe reparations to myself?

5. What of all of the African's who have immigrated here since? Technically speaking, if the Federal Goverment shells out reparations, then ALL tax payers end up paying for it, which means the Africans who have come here to immigrate end up paying reparations to those who were already here.

6. Is it only for white people? What about the 3,000 Uncle Tom Asshats who were black AND owned their own slaves?

This late in the game, Reparations is nothing but one more wedge that people will use against the public to drive races apart and give power to race-baiters. White supremecists will use the issue just as well as Black supremecists.

KNOCK THAT CRAP OFF!! I don't want anyone else's money. I want MY money. The money I worked for, instead of shelling it out in another stupid quest to give it to people who didnt.

Was slavery wrong? Hell Yes!

Was it legal? Unfortunately yes.

Is it now illegal for people to discriminate EITHER FOR OR AGAINST BASED ON RACE? A resonding yes.

Get over yourselves. There are whites who hate blacks. There are blacks who hate whites. Let's not give either of them any more ammo.

I figured all you Commie Pinko's would be against anything that elevated one group against the other....or does that only apply when someone has something you don't.

wow
by a white guy
Tuesday February 11, 2003 at 01:48 PM:
"Wow, you found a racist opposed to your views. I guess that means you're right"

Judging from your comments, that racist is you too! And similarly just as ignorant. Except that Horowitz is just a little bit smarter than you: he found a way (serving racist right-wing foundations that work to suppress even poor or working-class whites like you) to get paid (raparations for him, you might say) for his ignorance (a mental handicap reparations).

TO: "From a Black Guy" --- [ 'YEAH', 'RRRRIGHT!' AT LEAST TRY TO *FOOL* SOME-BO-DY!!] --- by Uber-Nerd, Tuesday February 11, 2003 at 01:54 PM.

JA's response:

As I said, this issue and most of these white popular bigoted bar room objections to the concept of reparations for slavery have already been hashed out at http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/01/1566083_comment.php#1566470 .

impossible that he could be a black guy! all black guys agree with you. and if they don't then they're not Real True Black Guys -- !?

"A few facts that some of you might want to consider, and I'd like to think my opinion may amount to a little more, considering I am of African Descent."

assuming you are telling the truth and you are of "african descent," why should your opinion matter more based on your race when your opinion is race doesn't matter?

how do you figure "reparations is nothing but one more wedge that people will use against the public to drive races apart"? judging from this thread, one's opinion about reparations has very little to do with one's race. i'm white and i support reparations, and you and adolph reed are black and you oppose reparations. seems to me that the it drives a wedge between those who support reparations and those who oppose reparations, regardless of race. as far as i'm concerned thats an excellent wedge to build.

i think "african americans" who oppose reparations should be vocal about it. this will help demonstrate that even black people can be reactionaries who would defend america from having to take responsibility for its crimes. this will help expose neocolonialism, and help to prevent the deepening crisis of capitalism from degrading into a "race war."

btw: if you really are black and really do hold those opinions, you should consider a carreer in politics. black politicians and other "people of color" who espouse white nationalist ideology are hard to come by and are sought after in electoral politics. there money in that for sure, and you REALLY won't need reparations. see colin powell, condaleeza rice and wille brown for examples of this. its called neocolonialism, according to kwame nkrumah, the final stage of capitalism.

btw why 'uhuru'? black americans are mostly from W Africa aren't they? (they don't speak swahili in w Africa).

It's just as easy for you to spew ad hominem attacks against Horowitz as it is for you to indiscriminately distribute asterisks or drop names in your other insipid posts. What are your SUBSTANTIVE arguments against Horowitz's?

>i don't have a lot of money.

When you ain't got nothing, you got nothing to lose.

well, hey, JA
by YAWG Tuesday February 11, 2003 at 02:37 PM:
"It's just as easy for you to spew ad hominem attacks against Horowitz as it is for you to indiscriminately distribute asterisks or drop names in your other insipid posts. What are your SUBSTANTIVE arguments against Horowitz's?"

JA's response:

(Do you know how to read?)

It's just like slavery: but now the white man even wants me to *READ* for him!!

You guys are really selling yourselves short. It's not money you should be after. If you want real reparations, you need to start enslaving all white people and keep them slaves for 400 years (we are not counting the slavery that existed in Africa for thousands of years prior). You need to take all our possessions and land and enslave us for a few centuries. Only then can we really call it even.

I think that should be the centerpiece of your campaign. Make the debate more interesting.

A few serious questions though:

If the source of American prosperity is/was slavery:

1) Why did America become a world power only after slavery was abolished?

2) Why are states with the highest instance of slavery also the poorest?

If racial discrimination has enriched America at the expense of minorities:

1) Why are states which enforced the Jim Crow laws the poorest in the nation?

2) Why are states with the most racial equality (first to integrate schools, etc) the richest?

Finally, how much can you really expect to get out of a bunch of white trash cracker southern racist KKK rednecks who spend all day sitting around the trailer park drinking Pabts Blue Ribbon, shooting cans with guns, and talking about how the south will rise again? Are they not the targets of your reparations campaign? They have no money!

Anyway, it is my deeply held belief that those who embrace equality and justice will prosper, and those who enslave will wither and die, leaving no money for reparations.

Just my thoughts. Now let the ad hominem continue ad nauseum.

RE: not the first "black guy" to harbor white nationalist ideology
by matthew Tuesday February 11, 2003 at 02:33 PM

Thank you, matthew. You suffer fools--loud, proud ignorant white bigots--much better than I do. (You must be younger--haha!) I have more patience (and especially time) for whites who come ask more dignified questions (instead of crass 'I ain't owned no slaves' or 'why you lookin' for another handout, you got welfare?' questions, this, 'what principle of law entitles people who are not direct victims of mass violations of human rights to receive reparations?'), and/or at least come with a more dignified approach (if still with innocently simple-headed, woefully unelightened questions). But, for those brainwashed boorish barroom bigots--or simple-minded neeegroes--I ain't got no patience.

And as I said to, and agreed with, one white brother in the other thread on reparations, a majority of us in the working class have been exploited by white capitalism and deserve some form of reparations. It's too bad that many working-class whites, and especially poor whites, don't realize this too and join hands. Any gains by Blacks in this country have always opened up more gains for EVERYONE in these classes--regardless of color (like white women, affirmative action's greatest beneficiaries, or labor rights gains for white men)--because it sets a new standard of justice and a new precedence!

Affluent whites (or even those relatively few Blacks), who have been bought off by the American capitalist system, owe their standard of living to the exploitation of the rest of us, as well as people of color all around the world; their affluence is subisidized by our exploitation.The suppression of rights/justice against Blacks in this country has always been used to suppress rights/justice against poor and working-class whites as well, of whom there are numerically many more than such Blacks.

JA.. what have you actually done or suffered personally that entitles you to anything? What have you contributed to any greater good. You, by definition, since you want a handout, deserve nothing. You and your lazy greedy brethren are an anomaly in Black culture. It's fun to watch you clammer for something you will surely never even get close to getting. Beg on sir!

Jewish groups manage hundreds of millions of dollars they get from nearly $9 billion in Holocaust reparations, a Jewish official said on Tuesday.
Claims by individual Holocaust survivors AND THEIR RELATIVES will be honored before the money is paid to the Jewish groups.
After all these claims are paid, plenty of money is expected to be left for the Anti Defamation League.
"There will undoubtedly be hundreds of millions of dollars and probably billions of dollars available,'' said Steinberg, adding the new foundation formally will be announced on Sept. 11 in New York.

Hundreds of elderly Holocaust survivors live in bleak conditions at Israeli mental hospitals -- while millions of dollars in German reparations accumulate in accounts controlled by the government.

Doctors say government trustees refuse to allow the money to be used to improve the survivors' lives, turning down requests for televisions, air conditioners and holiday parties.

About 900 of the 360,000 Holocaust survivors who live in Israel are believed to be in mental hospitals. Most have been institutionalized since the 1940s and '50s when they came to Israel, where weary survivors met an ambivalent reception from a state busy creating a new image of the proud, fighting Jew.

The patients' illnesses, which are traced to their experiences in Nazi death camps, make them wards of the state. Their bank accounts are administered by the court-appointed Fund for the Care of Dependents, which is supervised by the government's General Custodian for Wards, attorney Shmuel Tsur.

Tsur and fund director Avi Angel blame each other for the failure to improve patient living conditions.

"I am all in favor of alleviating the suffering of the patients,'' Tsur said. "But the money is administered by the fund, and its directors don't consult me.''

Angel, however, said that whenever the expenditure is not exclusively for a patient's personal use, he cannot authorize it without Tsur's permission. He said Tsur usually refuses any expenditures that would benefit more than one patient.

The survivors, many in their 80s, suffer from illnesses that include acute depression and schizophrenia. Some have accumulated large sums of money from the German government for their time in Nazi camps, receiving as much as several hundred dollars a month for the past four decades.

The Maariv newspaper has estimated that, together, the patients have several million dollars.

Avner Elitsur, director of the psychiatric ward at the Abarbanel Hospital near Tel Aviv, said the hospital recently submitted requests for money to install air conditioners, buy television sets and serve festive meals on Independence Day and other holidays.

They were refused on the grounds that other patients in the room would benefit, not just the patient whose money was being used, Elitsur told The Associated Press.

"Unfortunately, there are still eight patients in a room,'' he said. "We pointed out that the other patients are also Holocaust survivors, but it didn't help.''

Elitsur said the trustees have only approved requests for purchases, including clothing, for specific people.

Combined with other accounts held by the government, including the accounts of Holocaust survivors who died without heirs, the state "is sitting on billions of dollars which belonged to Holocaust survivors,'' said Jonathan Lemberger, head of AMCHA, a support organization for Holocaust survivors.

Lemberger said the officials involved "refuse to spend it to help those still alive, although the law says that is what it should be used for.''

"When they die their money will pass to the state,'' Lemberger said. "Israel complains about the Holocaust victims' money Switzerland is holding. What about the money the Israeli government is holding?''

Jewish groups have sued three Swiss banks, seeking damages for Switzerland's acceptance of gold plundered by the Nazis.

RE: On reparations: by z Tuesday February 11, 2003 at 05:45 PM

Let's hope that the capitalists don't set up a similar situation of a just a handful of Blacks, or a few large white-ordained Black organizations, getting rich at the expense of real development benefits of a potentially mollified Black society as a whole, especially poor and working-class and working-middle-class Blacks. (Black capitalists can be just as bad as white capitalists.)

See: The Holocaust Industry, book, by Professor Norman Finkelstein.

(Start with a web search, but disregard any duplicitous, racist, neo-Nazi exploitation of this book.)

Israeli banks and institutions kept Nazi victims' assets

Evidence is emerging from an Israeli parliamentary committee and court action that some of the pillars of the Israeli financial establishment hung on to the assets of Jews who died under the Nazi regime and blocked attempts by the victims' families to seek justice. The committee has recommended an independent audit of at least 12,000 dormant accounts and 5,000 safe deposit boxes at Bank Leumi.

During the 1920s and 1930s, Zionist leaders actively sought investment to build up Zionist enterprises and settlements in what was then British-ruled Palestine. European Jews bought plots of land and opened bank accounts in Palestine as a way of contributing to the establishment of a Jewish homeland, preparing for their own or their families' eventual emigration, and later, after Hitler took power, seeking a haven for their savings.

No one knows for certain how much was involved. It is believed that some $40 million was deposited in bank accounts and a similar amount invested in land, much of which would now be in prime locations in Haifa and Tel Aviv. Money and other valuables were kept in safe deposits whose whereabouts are unknown.

When the Second World War broke out, the British mandate government in Palestine seized the land and bank accounts held by Jews from countries under Nazi rule as enemy property. Most of the money was transferred back to London. Under the settlement with Israel in 1950 , the British government paid back just $1.4 million in compensation for the bank accounts and handed over records of the seized accounts and land to the Israeli government. While some restitution payments were reportedly made, the fate of other accounts and properties is unclear.

Shmuel Tsur, the Custodian-General at the Ministry of Justice who manages the unclaimed property, maintains that almost all the confiscated assets were either returned to their owners or handed over to his office. He estimates that 20 percent of the holdings, worth about $90 million, belonged to European Jews killed in the war. Of the list of unclaimed accounts and properties published by his office in 1997, fewer than 10 have been returned after claims to them were confirmed. He used this to justify his assertion that there was no reservoir of money or property hidden away, but was forced to admit under questioning by the parliamentary committee that he could not be sure that he had received full reports from the banks regarding all dormant accounts. “I start from the assumption that the bank reports are correct,” he said. He also acknowledged that successive Israeli governments sold many of the plots of land to cover taxes or expropriated them for development or military use.

Colette Avital, a member of Prime Minister Ehud Barak's One Israel Party and chair of the parliamentary committee, said that for years there have been lists of property abandoned by its owners, including those who were believed to have perished in the Holocaust. She said the Custodian-General had 4,300 real estate assets, but other groups, such as the Jewish National Fund, also held properties but had refused to publish details until pressed by the hearings of the parliamentary committee. According to Avital, while the banks said they had passed all information about dormant accounts to the custodian-general she was sceptical that full details were given.

Avital presented one example of an account from 1940 in which 96,000 lira was deposited. At the time, she said, the money was enough to purchase two apartments on Rehov Allenby, one of the main streets in Tel Aviv. “After 60 years, the Custodian-General is offering to give back NIS [New Israeli Shekels] 285,” she said. The sum is equivalent to US$73.

Earlier this year, Bank Leumi published on its Internet site a list of accounts that had been inactive since 1955 or earlier. The Jewish National Fund, a land development agency, also published on its site a list of plots sold to Jews before the war that remain unclaimed. Last November, class action suits were brought on behalf of relatives of Holocaust victims against Bank Leumi and the privately owned Israel Land Development Company, set up by the Zionist movement to buy land in Palestine. The families are demanding full disclosure of the accounts and land bought by Jews who perished under the Nazis.

Holocaust survivors refrained from such a search for property for years and left the matter for the state to handle, she noted. Avital said that on the official level, bureaucratic inertia had prevented effective action to trace and return the unclaimed assets. “There was a lot of neglect and lack of sensitivity,” she said.

In a related development, an international panel investigating insurance policies held by Holocaust victims announced last April that it had the names of 19,000 people who were owed money.

For decades the issue of the lost accounts and assets generated little interest in Israel. Jewish survivors from Nazi Germany, who came to Palestine, and later Israel, devoted their energies to tracing their relatives and building a new society. As Dr. Yossi Katz, a professor at Bar Ilan University, and author of the recently published Forgotten Property, said, “In the early years of nation building and in subsequent decades, there were other priorities. Until the 1990s, the issue didn't trouble the public. Other matters were seen as far more important, such as security and absorption of immigrants. It's safe to assume that had the issue not come up recently in Europe, it would not have come up in Israel. There was a reluctance here to deal with the Holocaust in economic terms. It was inconceivable to turn the Holocaust into a material issue. A younger generation had to come along that was not directly linked to the Holocaust and could deal with it less sentimentally.”

That this new generation was prepared to take up the issue also denotes a generation that does not have the same blind faith in the Zionist dream of creating a safe haven for the Jewish people.

There has been extensive press coverage of the failure of the Swiss banks to reveal the existence of accounts belonging to Nazi victims. Edward Korman, an American judge, has just given his final approval to a $1.25 billion settlement and was highly critical of the way the Swiss banks behaved during the three-year audit to unearth records that might be linked to Nazi victims. Israel provided vocal support for this campaign, but has been remarkably reticent about its own record.

Eleazer Shafrir is a 76-year-old retired biochemistry professor. His father visited Poland in 1938 and was persuaded by the Zionist movement to invest in Palestine, but remain in Poland. He said, “Everyone knew that something was happening in Europe. He [his father] wanted to make aliya [emigrate] but he was convinced by the people in Jerusalem that it was much more important that he be there in Poland.” As a result, his father, a community leader, was one of the first to be rounded up by the Nazis when they invaded Poland and died in Auschwitz in 1940. Shafrir added, “This is not about money. I do not want to enrich myself. I think this is fundamental justice. What is painful is that we demanded from the Swiss and other nations the return of Jewish property and the return of Jewish art belonging to people who died in the Holocaust. But in our country, we cannot organise the return of property to survivors of people lost in the Holocaust.”

Israeli banks and the Israel Land Development Company have resisted opening up their records. As the victims' lawyer Roland Roth argued, both the Israeli and Swiss banks are motivated by a desire to preserve their assets. “Every economic body has an interest in holding on to what it can,” he said.


Token compensation for some victims of forced labour under the Nazis
[17 December 1999]
Blood money: two exposés of Swiss collaboration with the Nazis
[30 May 1998]
Fascism & the Holocaust

your posts are great, ja! nice to have some allies in this joint! the white left as a group has yet to come to terms with this question, but i'm confident many will.

you hit the nail on the head about gains won by africans providing gains for everyone else. so why are most white people so reactive when the idea of reparations to african people is introduced? unfortunately, another reality is that wave after wave of europeans has realized the "american dream" after a generation or two of exploitation of africans and indigenous people. therein lies the material interest of whites to oppose reparations, while being ambivalant or supportive of reparations to others such as the japanese or jews.

after 500 years, that africans people will be sentenced to unspeakable emmiseration for all time is an assumption in america; just a fact of life -- something to, at best, say tsk tsk about over coffee with friends. this is true even of "progressive" whites in america.

but the uhuru movement believes white people can be principled allies of africans and all people in the struggle for dignity, peace, happiness and a return of all the resources stolen through the 500 year old invasion and colonization of african and her people. i'm thankful that such an organization exists for white people to be a part of.

anyone interested in this question should come out to the tribunal this weekend:

http://www.uhurureparations.org

amoung the esteemed guests giving testimony will be none other than saikou diallo, the father of amadou who we all remember being brutally gunned down by new york's finest slave catchers in 2000.

here is a leaflet for distribution:
http://www.geocities.com/thew94610/truthrecrep.pdf

also for those who don't have plans tomorrow night, please come out to an event sponsored by the uhuru movment: Africans Unite: a report from Occupied Azania (South Africa) by Omali Yeshitela

http://www.geocities.com/thew94610/africans_unite.pdf

uhuru means freedom! matthew

Just to add my two cents, I believe that any reparations are wrong, Black, Jewish or Japanese, since ALL people have incurred great hardships, and both blacks and whites have used slavery at the expense of the other, and to try to make amends for them is impossible, and two single one group is wrong and racist. I have never accepted the argument that two wrongs make a right, although a number of people in the “radical” left have. One could better devote ones time to making sure that these crimes are not being repeated.

Slavery was wrong, and I think everyone will admit that. However, it was nothing new to world, nor was it limited to Blacks and America. We had it here in Canada to until 1832, when it was abolished peacefully throughout the British Empire, imagine that! Anyway slavery is almost a thing of the past; Except for a few areas, ironically enough in Africa. Anyone who is really concerned about helping the victims of slavery should focus their efforts on the ones still alive and being oppressed today. Sadly the supporters don’t give a shit, about these people, which makes it impossible to even think about supporting their cause. (There are so many better ones out there!)

However, it disturbs me greatly, that even though slavery ended in both our countries around the same time, it is America that still lags fall behind Canada in terms of “race relations”. I believe this has absolutely nothing to do with slavery issue, but rather another S word segregation, and America’s melting pot immigration policy. Herding blacks into ghetto’s, with very little prospects of getting out and improving their lives. This should be want the black community should focus on, and even guilt ridden white’s who want to make a difference. As until you change how each community lives there will never be equalization in your society. With the vast majority of the black population will only be able to go as far as affective action takes them, (which is not very far) nor does it provide any increase in prospects for the next generation. Thus the cycle of poverty continues while you’re worrying about dividing up these “reparations”.

To bad for Matthew living in a segregated country, never had a chance to grow up around black people, if so he would have realized that they are not to different from us, as no one really likes or enjoys getting a handout, (although very few people will turn it down) instead most people black and white, only want a fair chance in life, and not to be discriminated against.

For I am too a minority where I live, however I don’t use this as excuse, or a crutch, no would I. If you care about improving race relations and avoiding your so called race war, reparations will only worsen this relationship. A better understanding will only come though interaction.

By the way I am as white as they come, and live in Toronto, we whites only make of 47% of the city and are oppressed by the MAN!

Reparations is a dead subject. It ain't gonna happen. But at least the people talking about it and going to meeting are using their time doing that rather than stealing hubcaps.

reparations is slavery all over again.

To J Anderson

Do a search on Indy Media for my name. I’ve stood my ground on the basis race before and mentioned my status as “black” in previous postings. I’ve also only posted it with the acknowledgement to disprove the notion that I’m a white guy. Look it up, asshat.

To Matthew

The reasoning for including my race in this debate was to point to the fact that it’s not just some of you white folks who have a problem with reparations.

Obviously, through your rose tinted glasses you missed what I said regarding the “wedge” comments. Allow me to reiterate and maybe you’ll actually read it this time. It will only serve to divide people on a racial scale. The favoring of monies to one group based on race will only serve to distance them from the other races.

I would have hoped that someone of your obvious leftward leanings would be about making sure that those of future generations have a more level playing field than trying to exalt one group over another.

Also, I have no great care for politics. I’m happy working at my own job, earning my own money, and taking care of my own family, thank you very much.

Of course, you might want to look into politics yourself. Your near-sighted liberal views would make you a perfect candidate for Nancy Pelosi’s staff.

You might want to listen to Ken Hamblin on the radio sometime. http://www.hamblin.com/ Like me he’s black, grew up poor, and is more concerned with working hard to gain status than sitting on our butts and demanding that someone give us what is already out there for the taking.


To JA

Everything in this world has been done on the backs of others. Every group and race has been the slave of another at some point or another. Get over it. The U.S. has done more in this world to elevate human rights issues and enact more fair human rights legislation in the last five decades than any other.

To All.

And lastly, while Slavery and discrimination were blatantly wrong, America is still the best place on Earth to live. If you don’t believe me, ask some of the African immigrants, who, by the way, usually detest black Americans. They think we are weak, selfish, and lazy.

I don’t believe that anyone owes me a damn thing. What I make is mine. If someone tries to take it by force, they better kill me and all that are with me. The laws in place right now enable me to do well in life. When I was young, it was not so, but Dr. King and those who stood with him opened the eyes of the world. There is no need for Reparations anymore. There is only need for hard work, education, and determination. If you want an example, ask the Hispanic community. They recently passed us to become the largest minority after Caucasians.

When I see you out there loudly criticizing reparations to non-direct and twice and thrice removed victims of the Jewish Holocaust -- including Jews who weren't even born during the Holocaust -- as well as all the aid that Israel--a nation the size of New Jersey of 4.5 million Jews gets EVERY year -- about $10-Billion when you add everything up -- if 30 million Black-Americans got that white-America would re-institute lynching -- or now, even, Ariel Sharon is asking for an extra $14-Billion on top of that -- when I see you out there criticising this unwarranted reparations for WHITES as loudly as you do for Blacks -- and when I see you loudly, publicly, boldly criticizing bail-out REPARATIONS for white corporations, institutional investors and large stockholders -- then you might gain some credibility from me. Until then, you can sit yo ass dowwwn, MF!!

Unterstufe:

"The favoring of monies to one group based on race will only serve to distance them from the other races."

JA:

In case you don't know, there is ALREADY distance between races. When white politicians employ racist code words and phrases -- like Nixon and his "Southern Strategy", Carter and his "neighborhood purity" remark, Reagan and his "welfare queen", Bush Sr. and "Willie Horton", Clinton and his 'Willie Hortonizing' of Sister Souljah, all these to boost campaign poll numbers, as well as POLICE BRUTALITY [I know: you think all those brothas were just "resisting arrest!]), racist attacks on rap music, white tv shows like "Friends" supposedly in New York but with NO BLACKS in sight[!], and white-written Black buffoon sitcoms [well, except for "Bernie Mac"], black stereotyping in the news media, etc.) -- *THAT* serves to distance the races! Dummkofp!!

Unterstufe:

"You might want to listen to Ken Hamblin on the radio sometime"

JA:

Yeah, an Uncle Tom Neeegro who can only make a living off of bashing Black folks for the pleasure and comfort of white brainless boorish barroom bigots like some of those around here.


Unterstufe:

"ask the Hispanic community. They recently passed us to become the largest minority after Caucasians."

JA:

A higer birth rate?: *that's* proof of socioeconomic elevation of living and progress??? In fact, Unterstufe, birth rates usually DECLINE as a group's standard of living INCREASES, Dummkopf! (Of course, some of the rise is due to immigration from Central American countries that U.S. foreign policy has made too untenable or too unbearable to live in, anymore.)

Unterstufe:

"Dr. King and those who stood with him opened the eyes of the world. There is no need for Reparations anymore."

JA:

King SUPPORTED reparation *and* affirmative action. Dummkopf!!


Unterstufe:

"America is still the best place on Earth to live."

JA:

That's because you ain't ever been anywhere else (unless you were on some military based overseas in the army--unfortunately the only way most Black-Americans get overseas). The U.S. is way behind in all sorts of social statistics: for education, safety, access to health care, etc., it lags in literacy, knowledge of culture, its coasts and mountains aren't even as beautiful as Mediterranean Europe.


Unterstufe:

"The U.S. has done more in this world to elevate human rights issues and enact more fair human rights legislation in the last five decades than any other."

"The laws in place right now enable me to do well in life.'

"America is still the best place on Earth to live."

JA:

Unter-Nerd: "Massa been sooo good to me!!!"


----------------------------------------------------------------


(Even most whites, even those indisposed to reparations, think you're a bit over the top with your pollyannish flag waiving! But, they probably feel lucky to have neeegro fools like you! Get ahhhtta here!!)

Hey! I got no more time for you. I'll leave you to the more patient matthew! (He's all yours, matthew!)

sorry buddy. that kind of backtracking won't work on a forum where communication occurs through typing. your race card wasn't pulled to point to the fact that reactionaries who oppose reparations include some black people. thats obvious. just look at bush's cabinet. you think condaleeza rice, who has a chevron oil tanker named after her, believes in reparations? look at the rabid white nationalist pitbull, ken hamblin who you're promoting. he sure as hell hates reparations. like i said its called neocolonism.

no. what you said was "I'd like to think my opinion may amount to a little more, considering I am of African Descent." then when went on with a position that amounted to "race doesn't matter." your boy, ken hamblin "the black avenger" made a career for himself doing this. since you believe race isn't an issue in america, and since there is every possiblity that you are lying about your "race" claim, anyway, may i suggest that using the race card to espouse your white nationalist views kinda makes you look like a hypocrit ... not a very bright one either.

no, what you are, whether you are white black or purple, is a reactionary thug. you say things like "The U.S. has done more in this world to elevate human rights issues and enact more fair human rights legislation in the last five decades than any other." You say this about the country with more prisoners than any country in the world include 10% of the black male population in reproductive age; the country that stormed out of the WCAR because the entire world demanded it take responsbility for its crimes against africans and africa; the only country that has ever used nuclear weapons; one of three countries on the planet that will execute children; the country that got filthy rich stealing a continent and killing its inhabitants and making another continent's worth of people work like farm animals for hundreds of years; the country that has 10% of the black men of reproductive age in behind bars (oh i already said that, but fuck it. i'll say it twice), the country that makes 400 billion on illegal drugs and then locks up 10% of the black male population of reproductive age for "illegal drugs" (yeah i'll say it three times), the country that killed 1.5 million iraqis in the last 10 years and is now salivating like pavlovs dog to kill a lot more, the country with a dictator who stole an election sitting in the white house with a dopey grin planning on recolonizing the world.

the only people on the planet who believe who believe "The U.S. has done more in this world to elevate human rights issues and enact more fair human rights legislation in the last five decades than any other" are people who benefit from the centuries of crimes that built and maintained the wealth of america. most of of these folks are white, but some are black and other "colors."

you talk about how great african immigrants find this place, as if slavery and colonialism weren't a crime against africa for which it is still suffering. anyone who believes the myth that africans on the continent find africans in the diaspora "weak selfish and lazy" should come to the uhuru house tonight at seven p.m. and here from omali yeshitela how he was received by africans in south africa last month:

http://www.geocities.com/thew94610/africa_unite.pdf

no ubernerd, you are a reactionary thug, and your "color" or "race" is irrelevant. mobutu was black. colin powell is black. there are black police all over this country beating, killing and abusing other black people. i don't care what color you are. your american dream is soaked in blood, starting with the people whose land was stolen so you can have a mailing address in the USA.

SMASH NEOCOLONIALISM! REPARATIONS NOW!

"condaleeza rice, who has a chevron oil tanker named after her"

She doesn't, you know. Just FYI.

Yeah, I only got about two sentences into your rant. Fascinating picture, though. Can you tell us the date and location where it was taken?

JA is QB. Check, I'm sure I'm right.

JA is QB. Check, I'm sure I'm right.

THIS IS MORE FOR THE BENEFIT OF OTHERS WHO MIGHT HAVE AN OPEN CONSIDERATION, RATHER THAN FOR UNTER-NERD -- A *CON-FUUUZZZED* UNTER-NEEEGRO! -- YA HEAR ME!?? -- OR ANY RACIST WHITES WHO ARE GOING TO BE, AND WERE, RACIST ANYWAY, *REGARDLESS* OF REPARATIONS.


Oh, I forgot to respond to one major bit of other nonsense that Unter-Nerd mention:

"The favoring of monies to one group based on race will only serve to distance them from the other races."

This standard argument is torn right from the pages of David Horowitz's anti-reparations ad and other racist whites who don't like Blacks anyway!! -- and didn't like Blacks *before* the reparations issue came up. (Actually Blacks asked for reparations even just after slavery, but the U.S. government kept denying reparations, even after taking back the 40 acres and a mule commitment.)


It's NOT reparations based on race: it's reparations based on the fact that a group of people were targeted and suffered mass human rights violations and/or atrocities or crimes against humanity and/or mass civil rights violations as a particular *CLASS/CATEGORY/GROUP* -- which happens to have been chosen targeted on race (as opposed to nationality, caste, ethnicity, religion, sex, or some other criteria) -- and that these violations were sanctioned and protected, in this case, by the U.S. Constitution, the U.S. government, and the state for 250 years under slavery and another 100 years under state-sanctioned apartheid until relatively recent modern times -- de facto and officially, until the mid-1960's, and de jure until even much later. The unbroken legacy of the original and modern crimes can be directly trace to the descendents -- which includes the *living* parents and even *living* grandparents of those living descendents -- of that same class of people *TODAY*.

Blacks did not choose themselves as state-sanctioned victims based on race, *WHITES* did! And every white who has ever immigrated to this country has, generally, *willingly* benefited -- and whether they like(d) it or not -- from personal, familial, and national accumulation/inheritance of assets and/or wealth (however relative) -- from white oppression of Blacks from slavery, followed by Jim Crow apartheid, followed by institutional racism to this day. As such, race-targeted victimization morally requires race-targeted remedies (which MLK demanded) and/or group RESTITUTION -- a word I actually prefer to reparations.

READ AND LEARN!

i'll tell you the date and source of the picture when you finish reading what i wrote. don't be lazy.

but anyway that's a half-assed response, white guy. i did a little research and you're right, Chevron's oil tanker, "the condaleeza rice" had its name changed recently to avoid further embarassment with what was becoming an icon of the Bush admin's oil and war cabinet. so i should have said "..HAD an oil tanker named after her" instead of "HAS an oil tanker named after her."

On another 'reparations' thread I posed a few questions that were never answered by reparations supporters:

-- if reparations are going to take the form of a monetary settlement, as is typically suggested, how is it decided who is deserving? Who pays? Through what mechanism will the payments be extracted and distributed?

-- what is the strategy for winning reparations? do reparations advocates think they can achieve their goal through lobbying, demonstrations, and moral appeals? If not, what strategy do they believe will need to be employed? If so, what does that say about the 'reparations' demand?

I'd appreciate a specific, detailed response. Please avoid the usual boiler-plate. Thanks.

About the questions Aaron raises. And I too have posed these questions and never got a straight answer. The answers I’ve received in the past were more based upon an emotional response instead of describing a clear and concise plan.

"if reparations are going to take the form of a monetary settlement, as is typically suggested, how is it decided who is deserving? Who pays? Through what mechanism will the payments be extracted and distributed?"

reparations should take many forms, and money is one of them. it should be paid through hundreds of avenues. here some examples:

- all africans in the united states should be immediately be exempt from taxation from a government which doesn't represent them. all taxes paid should be reimbursed, including from past generations, with interest. this money would come from the u.s. goverment.

- it is clear the u.s. government and many of its corporations have profited from the illegal drug economy, and have used it as a form of chemical warfare and justification of mass imprisonment of african people. therefore all african people in prison on drug-related charges should be immediately released and paid reparations for the years spent behind bars. this money would come from state and federal prison budgets. state and federal governments would be required to subsidize prisons which ran out of money.

- class action suits should be filed collectively by african people for being prevented from voting in the u.s. -- in many states, right up through the mid-1960s. these funds should be chanelled to serve the african community through democratically elected bodies representing the will of african people, for the general betterment of the african community.

- the u.s. government should create institutions responsible to research financial damges for all individual incidents in which african people where harmed or killed by state federal and governmental agencies. there are countless examples of this through u.s. history. one example is the port chicago disaster right here in oakland during wwII. another is tulsa oklahoma, 1915 (around)

- all family members of the victims of the thousands of lynchings which occured throughout this country should be paid by local, state and federal law enforcement agencies which failed to protect the victims, and local government agencies where the lyncings occured. if no immediate family members are available, the reparations should go to the above mentioned african community-elected and controlled agency

- all corporations which profited from the slave trade should be required to pay reparations. the exact amount should be calculated on a case-by-case basis. these funds should go both to direct descendants of africans enslaved, and to the above mentioned african community-elected and controlled agency.

"these are just a few off the top of my head, and this only scratches the surface. i could go on for hours like that."

-- what is the strategy for winning reparations? do reparations advocates think they can achieve their goal through lobbying, demonstrations, and moral appeals? If not, what strategy do they believe will need to be employed? If so, what does that say about the 'reparations' demand?

the strategy for winning reparations should include lobbying, demonstrations and moral appeals. while some are hopeful, many in the reparations movement believe those stategies won't be enough. some of us believe, the u.s. government will never willingly take responsiblity for the crimes of its foundation, inception and maintenance. it probably will be willing to "write a check" if it thinks that will chill the people out, but our job is to deepen the question so that won't be acceptable. "writing a check" is not reparations

if thats true, once african people and their allies are convinced of their unalienable right to reparations, and of the u.s. goverment's determination to never, ever give them, well, lets just say what marxists like to say, "class antagonism will sharpen." there's a word that begins with capital R that describes these situations....

Would only that the ghost of Socrates come down from on high and slap some logic into you. I shall shout to the heavens “AYE! I shall take up your banner, oh great logician!!” Lo, from there forth, let all call me PISTOFFoclese!

- all africans in the united states should be immediately be exempt from taxation from a government which doesn't represent them. all taxes paid should be reimbursed, including from past generations, with interest. this money would come from the u.s. goverment.

***You are a goober. Where do you think the money that is in the coffers of the U.S. Government comes from? The taxpayers, you dolt. “It comes from companies too” you reply? Wrong. Corperations make money off of people…THE CUSTOMERS. All of a company’s costs are offset on to the CUSTOMER. That means that every cent that the government gets, comes directly from the taxpayer.

- it is clear the u.s. government and many of its corporations have profited from the illegal drug economy, and have used it as a form of chemical warfare and justification of mass imprisonment of african people. therefore all african people in prison on drug-related charges should be immediately released and paid reparations for the years spent behind bars. this money would come from state and federal prison budgets. state and federal governments would be required to subsidize prisons which ran out of money.

***Okay….you are seriously smoking something over this one. I’m not even going to delve into your inane conspiracy theories on the Federal Government being behind drugs in the US. Are they behind the drug problems in other countries too? Gads, man! Wake up! Also, were it to actually happen that all Drug Criminals were release, THEY STILL BROKE THE LAW!!! They knew what they were doing was illegal. They got caught. TOUGH LUCK, BUDDY!

- class action suits should be filed collectively by african people for being prevented from voting in the u.s. -- in many states, right up through the mid-1960s. these funds should be chanelled to serve the african community through democratically elected bodies representing the will of african people, for the general betterment of the african community.

***This one could actually be close to something to do. However, you must also realize that most of the “Jim Crow” laws applied to both blacks AND whites. The education and financial status of the people was being used against them….Poll Taxes…having to fill out forms….etc. It’s doubtful that this argument for a lawsuit would work, but it would be interesting to see how it panned out.

- the u.s. government should create institutions responsible to research financial damges for all individual incidents in which african people where harmed or killed by state federal and governmental agencies. there are countless examples of this through u.s. history. one example is the port chicago disaster right here in oakland during wwII. another is tulsa oklahoma, 1915 (around)

***Okay, another usual topic of conspiracy theorists. I’m surprised that you didn’t mention that some think that Port Chicago was one of the first tests for atomic bombs. Oh, incase you forgot…REPARATIONS WERE PAID FOR THAT ONE TOO!! Hey Nimrod….guess what? Congress shelled out a several thousands of (1944 era) dollars to each family of each victim.

- all family members of the victims of the thousands of lynchings which occured throughout this country should be paid by local, state and federal law enforcement agencies which failed to protect the victims, and local government agencies where the lyncings occured. if no immediate family members are available, the reparations should go to the above mentioned african community-elected and controlled agency

***the actions of individual racists, however perverted an immoral are not the responsibility of the government. It sucks, but that’s part of living in freedom.

- all corporations which profited from the slave trade should be required to pay reparations. the exact amount should be calculated on a case-by-case basis. these funds should go both to direct descendants of africans enslaved, and to the above mentioned african community-elected and controlled agency.
"these are just a few off the top of my head, and this only scratches the surface. i could go on for hours like that."

***We would love to hear more of your ideas. You might actually come up with one that sounds reasonable.

-the strategy for winning reparations should include lobbying, demonstrations and moral appeals. while some are hopeful, many in the reparations movement believe those stategies won't be enough. some of us believe, the u.s. government will never willingly take responsiblity for the crimes of its foundation, inception and maintenance. it probably will be willing to "write a check" if it thinks that will chill the people out, but our job is to deepen the question so that won't be acceptable. "writing a check" is not reparations.

***Lobbying, demonstrations, and moral appeals? Are you kidding me? Those who whine the most get the money? What crap! GO OUT AND GET A JOB!!

-if thats true, once african people and their allies are convinced of their unalienable right to reparations, and of the u.s. goverment's determination to never, ever give them, well, lets just say what marxists like to say, "class antagonism will sharpen." there's a word that begins with capital R that describes these situations....

***Those who were enslaved were due reparations. Their children were as well. Maybe even their grandchildren. Beyond that, I’m sorry. Work hard and get by. As for your word that begins with a capital R, that simply shows your true colors.
You are one of those weak willed lazy little punks that has nothing better to do with your time than to sip shade-tree organically grown coffee and whine about the world. Your idea of equalizing the classes is not hard work, but to take by force from the “haves” and give to the “have-nots.” Should you and your individual wuss-sized sychophants actually attempt the R word, you’ll find me at my house, my copy of The Constitution framed behind me, and fully expressing my Second Amendment rights.

It should be my choice and mine alone to whom and to what I give my money. Yes, the current tax system does not reflect what I would like, but to change it THAT’S WHY I VOTE LIBERA

you mean smack down, like the way fred hampton was "smacked down" for being african and using the "r" word in public too many times? you know how the FBI and chicago police shot there way into is house and murdered him in cold blood on december 4, 1969? what with the "dept of homeland security" and the "patriot act" it should be even easier than it was in 1969 for the great democratic nation to handle dissidents who didn't know their place. oh well, i guess that's just another expression of the u.s. gov't doing "more in this world to elevate human rights issues and enact more fair human rights legislation in the last five decades than any other."

For Matthew.

The only reason for including my race is to illustrate that not all blacks agree with Reparations. Period. That is the only facet of the argument that my race applies to. If you would kindly address everything else from a logical standpoint, I would be more than happy to continue the discussion. Since you and your ilk have done nothing but refer to me and those who think like me as Uncle Tom’s and Hypocrites, I can only assume that you have an issue against white people and can not stand to have someone inform you that they do not need your help in this world no matter how much you want to help them.

Get over yourself.

Everything on this earth is tainted with blood. That’s part of life. War, enslavement, conflict, it’s all cyclical. Sad though it may be, it is part of the overall nature of humans to impress their will upon others.

As for your bleeding heart ideals, I’d like to see you pushing for the end of slavery that still exists in Africa today…BY Africans as well as Arabs.

Call me a Thug all you want, but I believe in equality. I believe that I am no worse, nor better than anyone else based on their ethnicity. As for reactionary, since the definition is one who opposes liberal thought, then YOU are the reactionary. I believe in the most liberal concepts of all: Freedom and equality. Since you seem to think that some deserve more, you follow a radical right-wing philosophy, even though your subject target is different. You are no better than the Police with their dogs and fire hoses.

To finish what I was saying....THAT'S WHY I VOTE LIBERATARIAN!!

If you bothered to read...the subject matter contained the inference that someone should "smack some logic into you," not kill you.

Get over yourself.

JA...I can only guess that is an acronym for a common equine beast of burden. Fitting.

Why don't you two tell me where in this quote I can find that everyone will only be equal AFTER monies or grants of something of that nature will happen?

***Begin***
"I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal." I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slaveowners will be able to sit down together at a table of brotherhood. I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a desert state, sweltering with the heat of injustice and oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.

I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. I have a dream today. "
***end***

Charecter. Hmmmm....kinda goes along with hard-work and determination, doesn't it? My. Nothing that I can see about the taking of my money to give right back to me and those who look like me.

You people are seriously unhinged.

Und saugen nach dem Skrotum einer Ziege, Sie gehen Sohn eines kommunistischen Schweins.

I'm just wondering what sort of return anyone gets out of so adamantly claiming to support an idea so unrealistic as reparations. Without getting into whether or not I agree in principle, because it's a waste of breath, I have to say that I KNOW that everyone knows down deep that reparations WILL NEVER HAPPEN. Certainly not in the ways purported here. So why even argue for it? I mean really; why even bring it up when it's illogic precludes it ever from happening. It's like spending your time arguing that the sky owes you a towel for raining on you. It's just pointless. So really, is it a foil for some larger cause, or is it simply some sort of weird personal entertainment, or simply delusion? Just an honest question .

You know that even if a bill to grant reparations were to pass....the majority of the money would never find its way into the hands of those that have truly suffered. Maybe a token payment would be made..but the majority of the funds would be put into the hands "leaders' that would "look after it' and make sure that it did the most good...

yeah, the most good for them...

I would like to see the U.S. government bypass the carpetbagging middlemen and establish reparations to all that have toiled for this country...some without their consent, some without any choice, and some without the means to seek justice for their work.

But, it should not be in the form of cash...since that is what attracts the carpetbaggers in the first place. Any reparations should be in the form of education and training...of small business loans and first time home buyer programs...whatever it takes to make the people of America..feel American...

An investment in its citizens will always provide America with a rich return ..

<first time home buyer programs...>

yea let's help folks buy some shit-hole for $300,000!

i mean, that real estate bubble ain't nearly big enough!

300,00 would buy some pretty nice property in most places...

Even VA loans that help our Vets that toiled for the country provide loan guarantees that enable people that might not be able to get a loan otherwise...myself included..I needed that help back in 1996 to be able to get into a house with no down payment...as a single father..I just could not save up the 5 or 10 percent down that conventional loans require..I appreciate what the VA (and US gov't provided for me.)

And the VA guarantee amount is currently around 250K...it doesn't cost them that much...they are merely providing the banks with a guarantee..much like we do for israel to the tune of 10 billion...

The gov't is only on the hook if the loan defaults...which is a miniscule fraction of the loans..

A program like this for the rest of the working people would see a huge increase in home ownership, along with the pride that only owning a piece of America can bring...

A good investment..one that only requires a guarantee...not actual money...

You are nothing more than a joke.

If racial taunts is all you have, then you are no better than the people who were for slavery. You're worse than the bigots of yesturyear if for nothing else, because you should know better.

I am truely amazed. One who can cheer for reparations so loudly and with the next voice call someone a "house nigga."

When you get to hell, send me a letter and let me know how Hitler is doing, alright?

Oh...and by the way....you never quoted anything from MLK on your Feburary 12th post. All you did was make a statement on what you believe he said. Find me a quote, you racist loser and you might actually impress me.

When you say "boy" in that context, you sound like all those white racists I saw growing up in the south.

How will you convince people you are not racist, I wonder?

Why would anyone waste any breath trying to convince anybody that they aren't racist? Who cares? We are all racist to some degree. Big fucking deal.

how much was his life worth? whose paying? whose collecting?

okchange:
you find it incomprehensible -- not only that the idea of the reparations demand might be successful -- but also that ANYONE might genuinely believe in the reparations demand. this is an example and manifestation of the mass brainwashing by the social system of its subjects.

for any State to function, its subjects have to be convinced of that State's permanance. the State we are talking about was given birth by the world economy and beauracracy set up through what we call the "triangular trade" of the chattel slavery. therefore, as a loyal subject of capitalism, you absolutely can not fathom the social system taking resonsiblity for this. you believe the system you are in is permant. this goes against the entire history of empires; all of which end in dust.

secondarily, the State needs its subjects to be convinced of its legitimacy. this secondary ideological component is also relevant in this discussion, because the question of reparations for african people exposes the fundamental corrupt nature of the social system we are talking about. but this second component isn't as necessary, if the first component is ingrained in the collective psyche of society. this is where we find the argument "well, sure, reparations MIGHT be owed, and slavery WAS terrible, but it's JUST TOO comlicated to resolve. lets just pretend slavery didn't happen and move forward. society is much better now, in fact, the most moral and democractic society in the history of the world, even if it never did take responsibility for its early crimes." when people say this, they are conceding the state has fundamental illigetimacy, but the state is permanant so there is nothing to do about it.

once society's subjects are convinced a society is NOT permanent (and secondarily illegitimate), the society itself unravels.

aaron and Isolationist:
you may have noticed, i answered those questions. i noticed neither of you have anything to say about them.

uber-nerd:
you may or may not know, "house nigga" is a outgrowth of the term, "house negro." this comes from a famous malcolm x speech, and since i know you love qoutes:

"Back during slavery, when Black people like me talked to the slaves, they didn't kill 'em, they sent some old house Negro along behind him to undo what he said. You have to read the history of slavery to understand this.

"There were two kinds of Negroes. There was that old house Negro and the field Negro. And the house Negro always looked out for his master. When the field Negro got too much out of line, he held them back in check. He put 'em back on the plantation.

"The house Negro could afford to do that because he lived better than the field Negro. He ate better, he dressed better, and he lived in a better house. He lived right up next to his master-in the attic or the basement. He ate the same food his master ate and wore his same clothes. And he could talk just like his master-good diction. And he loved his master more than his master loved himself. That's why he didn't want his master hurt.

"If the master got sick, he'd say, 'What's the matter, boss, we sick?' When the master's house caught afire, he'd try and put the fire out. He didn't want his master's house burned. He never wanted his master's property threatened. And he was more defensive of it than the master was. That was the house Negro.

But then you had some field Negroes, who lived in huts, had nothing to lose. They wore the worst kind of clothes. They ate the worst food. And they caught hell. They felt the sting of the lash. They hated their master. Oh yes, they did. If the master got sick, they'd pray that the master died. If the master'd house caught afire, they'd pray for a strong wind to come along. This was the difference between the two.

And today you still have house Negroes and field Negroes. I'm a field Negro. If I can't live in the house as a human being, I'm praying for a wind to come along. If the master won't treat me right and he's sick, I'll tell the doctor to go in the other direction. But if all of us are going to live as human beings, as brothers, then I'm for a society of human beings that can practice brotherhood."

this is the accurate description JA put on you, uber nerd (assuming of course that you aren't lying about your racial credential, which there is every possibility is the case) -- that of the "house nigga." it has nothing to do with racism. even if it did, comparing the use of "racial taunts" to the unspeakable crimes that occured against african people for the last 500 years would be laughable if it weren't so god-damned offensive. (talk about racist)

for all who speak of "racism" in general terms:
when a white person uses the term "nigger" or "wetback" it is an act of ideological justification for the countless attrocities as pictured above. when a black person uses the term "cracker" of "honky" or "white boy" it is in ideological defense against the kinds of attrocities pictured above. there is nothing equal about these two acts. for 500 years, white people have had a State -- laws enforced by men with guns and clubs -- that has allowed our ugly opinions of africans and others to materialize in the real world. thats the problem, not the ideas in our or anyone's head, or the words that come out of anyone's mouth.

I see that that my last two comments to Unterstufe were too right on for some people. Perhaps the whites who run indymedia? (My apologies if I am wrong.) --Since my last two comments have been removed in Unterstufe's behalf! You see Uncle Toms always get support from the 'right' white people. That's why they are Uncle Toms in the first place.

<when a white person uses the term "nigger" or "wetback" it is an act of ideological justification for the countless attrocities as pictured above. when a black person uses the term "cracker" of "honky" or "white boy" it is in ideological defense against the kinds of attrocities pictured above. there is nothing equal about these two acts.>

With that alone, everything else you said and any moral authority you hoped to establish went "flush" down the drain.

Murder is murder.
A graven image is a graven image.
Lying is lying.
Adultry is adultry.
Bearing false witness is bearing false witness.
Coveting is coveting.
Stealing is stealing.
AND
Racial slurs are racial slurs.

SPEAK FOR YOUR SELF, I AM NO RACIST.

Reposted: TOO HOT TO HANDLE!?

I see that that my last two comments to Unterstufe were too right on for some people. Perhaps the whites who run indymedia? (My most sincere apologies if I am wrong.) --Since my last two comments have been removed in Unterstufe's behalf! You see Uncle Toms always get support from the 'right' white people. That's why they are Uncle Toms in the first place.

I may have been your racist remarks....I believe "let massa rub yo head" and "nigga" might have had something to do with it.

I'm all for reparations, but you were coming across as one of the guys at the other end of the rope in Matthew's photo.

Have you ever heard Ice Cube's rap song "Hang 'Em High"?

It's one of my favorites.

It applies to people like Unterstufe.

Yanno....you should really come up with something better than the same worn out German slights.

Alteast you've managed to start calling me something more interesting than a "Dumb Head."

Just keep on ranting, you little Nazi, you. You're doing just fine.

"...Stealing is stealing..."

not according to my opponents here. if it happened more than a generation or so ago, than its not stealing anymore. its just an historical "tsk, tsk" at best.

i certainly hope indymedia didn't censor ja, one of -- perhaps the only -- african people who participate on this site. that would be pretty fucked up.

Whoever talkin about givin some tax free sattus stuff to pay reperations need to shut up. First of all I was raised in the pojects then on the section8 ith my mamma and brothers. She ain't never paid no taxes. Now I makes my money sellin crack and my brother bes a pimp and we don't give no tax so how we gonna gets our share.

The way to do it be like this

Theres like 250 millions of white devils in the country just about 50 millions black peoples. Every white jus right a check for 10,000 and give it to the reperations funds. that be paid out in checks to each black peoples 50,000 and it be fare for all of us.

Now after that you gives the rich black peoples lifeime free no tax sattus.

to mad, mad, word:
did they bury all the money they made through the free labor of slavery with their corpses? if so, hand me a shovel. did the money just "go away" after those nasty pigs died? or did the money get re-circulated into the system to benefit the chilrden and the economy of those slavemasters?

try not to be such a ahistorical dumb assed.

to sam:
no withstanding the dumb-assed content of your fucked up post (like any working class african would be opposed to being excempt from taxation and reimbursed for any taxes already paid): do you go so far as to put on black face when you post racist shit like that? does it help you get into the character, like amos 'n andy?

to everyone:
let me get this straight, so that i understand: that racist shit sam just spewed is cool, but j.a. paraphrasing stuff that malcolm x used to say, like calling reactionary uncle toms "house negro," gets censored on this "radical" site?

You must be sampleing the product before you sell it because you obviously dont know how to do math.
Last I checked the population in the United States was at 285 Million people(Citizens I Believe). And Im not sure what the count is on resident aliens, or people here on work or school visas. Oh yeah lets not forget about illegle aliens. And the Refugees.

Now I want you to do some research and break this number down into nationalities, here is a small list:

Native Americans
People of hispanic desent
Philipino
Polonesian/Samoan
Hawiian
French
English
South Americans
Eastern Europeans
Western Europeans
Asians

All these people live with our borders as well as Africans and African Americans.

More then anything, I thing you should learn how read and write before you tell people what to do.

The comment i posted was for sam

<Fuck him and all his bowtie wearing racist followers.>

Malcolm X broke with the Nation of Islam and was moving toward an anti-capitalist analysis when the NOI killed him.

<The blacks in this country benefit every bit as much from the "slave" supported society as anyone else.>

yea, blacks benefited alot from slavery. you're a MALICIOUS IMBECILE, 'still here'.

further, he left the noi when he was censured by elijah muhammed for refusing to publically express remorse when that capitalist thug kennedy was popped. x said he didn't feel remorseful at all, that "the chickens had just come home to roost," meaning american exports violence and terror, violence and terror come back home to america. he said this is a fact of nature, and not something to mourn. malcolm x was a fearless, brilliant african warrior -- amoung the best figures of the 20th century.

not only did the NOI help coordinate his assasination and minimize the damage from the ensuing fallout (it shouldn't be forgotten that the u.s. government itself, was the key player in the hit) farakhan, was a key spokesperson for the NOI after it happened, saying "no one tells our nation how to deal with its traitors!"

and now, malcolm x and king are assasinated, and we have the likes of farakhan and fucking jesse jackson (remember the slogan "run jesse run" when jesse was running for president? in the uhuru movement, their used to saying: the only time a black person should be telling jesse jackson "run jesse, run!" was if he or she had a brick in their hand. we caught a lot of slack for that one. heh heh.) instead of real leaders like malcolm x and martin luther king.

For christ's sake asshole, use your head. I did not say that Blacks benefitted from slavery. That's your thought and shows what an ass you are. But if you and that shitbird matty are claiming that whites STILL benefit from slavery today due to todays economy somehow stemming from slavery (as crazy as that is) then Blacks benefit as well. fiqure it out.
And malcom x could be in any group for all I care. He's still a racist scumbag. Thank God that piece of shit got killed. Hopefully, someday someone will off all you racist losers.

white supremacy accrued relative advantages to whites. slavery was the highest expression of white surpremacy in the history of the US, but shouldn't be allowed to eclipse the realities of Jim Crow, segregation, and anti-black exclusionary laws and customs.

where I disagree with Matthew in his contention that white supremacy has been an across-the-board categorical boon to all whites. it has brought relative advantages, yes, but, to the extent that racism cripples white working class peoples' ability to resist exploitation, it has been weapon against their interests. tens of millions of whites in this country live in poverty, and many more millions work all the time at stupid, boring, anti-social, alienated jobs--day in and day out and year after year--and just get by. capital loves a divided work-force, and racism is there to serve.

shit, we only need to listen the inane rantings of a racist "anti-racist" like 'still here' to be reminded that racism and bigotry are alive and well in America.

I read the Secret Relationship Between Blacks and Jews about eight years ago when a friend, who is a member of the Nation of Islam, loaned me his copy. I was so impressed with the high level of documentation used in researching this book that I bought my own copy.

One of the effects this book has had on the Jewish community is that it is now very difficult for a person of color to obtain entry to Jewish controlled historical archives. It was no doubt embarrassing to have Jewish archives quoted as the sources for the documentation of who owned the majority of slave ships, slave trading companies, and slave auction houses. I can understand why they would condemn this book.

Dr. Tony Martin, who taught African-American History at Wellesley College in 1993, made the mistake of thinking that he would be protected by the Right of Academic Freedom when he referenced this book while teaching just one of his class lectures. A smear campaign was instigated against him. The Jewish student organization, Hillel, in conjunction with the B'nai B'rith and the ADL, attempted to have Dr. Martin, a Black man of high standards and very respectable academic credentials, fired from his faculty position. I am not sure of the ultimate outcome of the controversy. If interested, you may wish to also read the book, The Jewish Onslaught, by Tony Martin.

Still here, just had some other priorities to take care of first. But from reading your response, I would have to say a lot of what I read is very misguided and very disillusioned. Just to hit on a couple of quick points:

“all africans in the united states should be immediately be exempt from taxation from a government which doesn't represent them. all taxes paid should be reimbursed, including from past generations, with interest. this money would come from the u.s. goverment.”

- African Americans are represented in the government. Just to name a few: Maxine Waters, Colin Powel, Barbara Lee, Clarence Thomas, James E. Clyburn. There are representatives from the African American community in Local, State, and US government.

“it is clear the u.s. government and many of its corporations have profited from the illegal drug economy, and have used it as a form of chemical warfare and justification of mass imprisonment of african people. therefore all african people in prison on drug-related charges should be immediately released and paid reparations for the years spent behind bars. this money would come from state and federal prison budgets. state and federal governments would be required to subsidize prisons which ran out of money.”

-People make choices in life, whether it’s to make right or left turn at the next light or whether to do or sell drugs. For those that are in jail for drug charges – they made a choice and need to live with the consequences. If you go through a prision list you will see that there are other ethnicities in jail for drug charges as well, not just African American.

“all family members of the victims of the thousands of lynchings which occured throughout this country should be paid by local, state and federal law enforcement agencies which failed to protect the victims, and local government agencies where the lyncings occured. if no immediate family members are available, the reparations should go to the above mentioned african community-elected and controlled agency”

-You go after the individual whom committed the crime not the government agency for failure to protect the victims. There are plenty of people whom are victims of crime everyday, if we use your theory then they are entitled to restitution from the government as well.

“all corporations which profited from the slave trade should be required to pay reparations. the exact amount should be calculated on a case-by-case basis. these funds should go both to direct descendants of africans enslaved, and to the above mentioned african community-elected and controlled agency.”

-That should be hard one to prove, as there are only a couple of companies left from that time, let alone to prove with documentation that they profited from the Slavery. Not sure of how many companies keep records dating back that far. But I guess companies such as Microsoft, IBM, and Yahoo should be thankful they are "newly" created industries.

Just a couple of quick points, but I would suggest you rethink your points as my guess would be if you take this to the general public you will get very negative feedback. Not just from the Caucasian Community, but from the other ethnic communities as well. Many of them can claim they have faced the same type of hardships and face even more upward struggle than the African American Community.

again anyone who wants an honest discussion on reparaitons should come to the tribunal tomorrow!

“all africans in the united states should be immediately be exempt from taxation from a government which doesn't represent them. all taxes paid should be reimbursed, including from past generations, with interest. this money would come from the u.s. goverment.”

- African Americans are represented in the government. Just to name a few: Maxine Waters, Colin Powel, Barbara Lee, Clarence Thomas, James E. Clyburn. There are representatives from the African American community in Local, State, and US government.

___________________
please see comments i've written on neocolonialsim. please look at the elections 2000 and the florida scandal as an example of how well africans are allowed to participate in the electoral process.
___________________

“it is clear the u.s. government and many of its corporations have profited from the illegal drug economy, and have used it as a form of chemical warfare and justification of mass imprisonment of african people. therefore all african people in prison on drug-related charges should be immediately released and paid reparations for the years spent behind bars. this money would come from state and federal prison budgets. state and federal governments would be required to subsidize prisons which ran out of money.”

-People make choices in life, whether it’s to make right or left turn at the next light or whether to do or sell drugs. For those that are in jail for drug charges – they made a choice and need to live with the consequences. If you go through a prision list you will see that there are other ethnicities in jail for drug charges as well, not just African American.

___________________
the people who really profit from the drug economy don't go to jail. ollie north, george bush, john poindexter are all drug kingpins who have positions in the government. while illegal drug use and sales happen about equally across races and classes, africans are over 100 times more likely to be arrested, and convicted for drug offenses than white people.

the illegal drug economy generates of 400 billion dollars a year. the people who go to jail for being involved in it are not the priniciple benefactors of a 400 billion dollar a year economy. the principle benefactors are the ones passing the laws to put them in those dungeons.

but then you're not really being honest, so i don't think logic is going to work here. reparations debate aside for a moment: your flippant, "if you do the crime, you do the time" justification for the over one million african men in prison -- most as a consequence of the drug economy -- is loathsome and disgusting.
___________________


“all family members of the victims of the thousands of lynchings which occured throughout this country should be paid by local, state and federal law enforcement agencies which failed to protect the victims, and local government agencies where the lyncings occured. if no immediate family members are available, the reparations should go to the above mentioned african community-elected and controlled agency”

-You go after the individual whom committed the crime not the government agency for failure to protect the victims. There are plenty of people whom are victims of crime everyday, if we use your theory then they are entitled to restitution from the government as well.

_______________________

the government not only "failed" to protect, they enabled and supported these crimes. willful neglect on the part of a government to protect a group or individuals from harm is a crime under international law.
_______________________

“all corporations which profited from the slave trade should be required to pay reparations. the exact amount should be calculated on a case-by-case basis. these funds should go both to direct descendants of africans enslaved, and to the above mentioned african community-elected and controlled agency.”

-That should be hard one to prove, as there are only a couple of companies left from that time, let alone to prove with documentation that they profited from the Slavery. Not sure of how many companies keep records dating back that far. But I guess companies such as Microsoft, IBM, and Yahoo should be thankful they are "newly" created industries.

-------------------------------------
there are plenty of companies around with roots in slavery. some of them are already facing lawsuits. and this is only one example of how reparations could play out.

-------------------------------------

"Just a couple of quick points, but I would suggest you rethink your points as my guess would be if you take this to the general public you will get very negative feedback. Not just from the Caucasian Community, but from the other ethnic communities as well. Many of them can claim they have faced the same type of hardships and face even more upward struggle than the African American Community."

thanks for the suggestion, but i think my points are just fine. anyone who tries to argue any group -- with the one exception of the indigenous Peoples whose land was stolen to create america -- "faced the same type of hardships and face even more upward struggle than the African American Community" in america is an ignorant fool, or lying, or both. this type of person won't be interested in righting historic and present day wrongs against africans no matter how clearly the solutions are spelled out.

Neo-Colonialism is nothing more than a political buzzword used to create emotionalism and to reflect the issue of personal responsibility to social responsibility. It’s like Rush’s famous political buzzword of Feminazi, just a way to play off of people’s emotion. And it always comes back to the 2000 elections, yes there were problems in the 2000 elections, but the fact of the matter is that it came down to a Republican vs. Democrat issue, not a racial issue as you like to proclaim. The truth of the matter is the Republicans stopped people from voting and the Democrats stuffed the voting box. The fact that you don’t care to acknowledge that African Americans are part of the government is very telling about your political blindness.

Your whole drug argument is based upon emotionalism and not substantiated by facts. How does Ollie North, GWB, John Poindexter benefit from the drug war? The answer, they don’t. The drug war stared long before Ollie North, GWB, and John Poindexter. You just threw that out there because it sounds good to "blame the Republicans", not because there is any reality to your point. Your statement is just as inane as me saying that Jessie Jackson, Barbara Lee, and Uhuru House benefits from the drug war because they use those African Americans jailed to help push and promote their political agendas. As to my “flippant” remark, you’re the one not being logical here. The fact is that as a nation, we have laws and punishment for breaking those laws and people have the free will to either obey or disobey those laws. The fact that you don’t acknowledge that people have free will that is what is truly loathsome and disgusting. If you want to talk about the drug war, that’s a separate issue and has nothing to do with reparations.

How did they enambled and supported these crimes? If any person that committed the crime was a government officials, then the questions that must be asked was this government conspired, or did the person act as individual. Again it goes back to the free will and personal responsibility. As to “international law”, as an isolationist, international law to me is a big joke and just a bunch of BS used by One Worlders. If you want to apply the “willful neglect on the part of a government to protect a group or individuals from harm is a crime under international law” theory, then the UN better get busy because I would say at least half the world leaders (including African Leaders) in the world are guilty under this “law”.

That’s the one “great” thing about America, anyone can file a lawsuit for what ever reason it may be. And seeing how the courts have been behaving lately, I wouldn’t be surprised if you win, especially if it’s a lawyer can play to a jury’s emotions.

I would like to see you go into a poor Hispanic or an Asian Community and tell them they don’t face faced the same type of hardships and face even more upward struggle than the African American Community and call them ignorant lying fools. Many of those members are Day Workers, Field Laborers, Food Services, Janitorial Services, and other minimum wage jobs and work at what many would say are slave rates. Barely affording a place to sleep and eat. They don’t have organizations with the political pull of an ACLU, the NAACP, a Rainbow Coalition, they come running willing to work Pro-Bono and use their strong media networks for those agenda. They don’t have an outspoken leader such as a Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, or a Kweisi Mfume who’s every word is publish in every major newspaper. They don’t have close to as many political representation despite the fact their population is close to equal that of the African American Community. And you wonder why they this type of person won't be interested in righting historic and present day wrongs against African Americans no matter how clearly the solutions are spelled out? Simple, it’s hard to take pity on a community that has more advantages and political power than your own community.

You and J.A. are a perfect match. Just because someone doesn't agree with reparations (which I don't) and would benefit people of the same ancestry (as I would) you have to fall back on "well if he doesn't like reparations, there is no way he could REALLY be black."

You seem to function under the assumption that we blacks need a hand out from all you caring and loving white's.

You seem to think that it's impossible for us as a community to overcome obstacles, whatever they may be.

The only thing I ask for is equal consideration. I do not need hand outs from people who's ultimate objective is the elimination of capitalism and the establishment of socialism....WHICH HAS WORKED OOOOOOOH SO WELL EVERYWHERE ELSE IT HAS BEEN TRIED.

Reparations are simply another form of slavery.

Equality for all!!

whatever the issue every thread inevitable deteriorates into 'hysterical' (skinheads are forever using this word!) antisemitic slander! It is disgusting and disappointing and typical of The Movement in general. Something must be done about it!

whatever the issue every thread inevitable deteriorates into 'hysterical' (skinheads are forever using this word!) antisemitic slander! It is disgusting and disappointing and typical of The Movement in general. Something must be done about it!

whatever the issue every thread inevitable deteriorates into 'hysterical' (skinheads are forever using this word!) antisemitic slander! It is disgusting and disappointing and typical of The Movement in general. Something must be done about it!

"You and J.A. are a perfect match. Just because someone doesn't agree with reparations (which I don't) and would benefit people of the same ancestry (as I would) you have to fall back on "well if he doesn't like reparations, there is no way he could REALLY be black."

not that i mind being compared to JA, but what the hell are you talking about? i already pointed out some verifiably black people who oppose reparations: condaleeza rice, colin powell and your rabid, right-wing talkshow host, ken hamblin to name three.

are you refering to the way i point out that you could be lying about your "racial credentials?" if so, tough shit. one difference between the above mentioned people and you is that we know what they look like and you're just some right winger typing on the internet. you very well could be a white guy pretending to be black. that's just a fact pal, doesn't make me a racist for saying so. the fact that you made your presence in this thread known by announcing what you claim is your "race" and that your opinion should carry more weight because of it makes me suspicious, and i have every right to be.

"You seem to function under the assumption that we blacks need a hand out from all you caring and loving white's."

you seem to function under the assumption that america's 500 years worth of profiting off slavery and other forms of domestic colonialism has nothing to do with the present-day poverty and exploitation that occurs against african people in the u.s. that seems pretty fucking racist to me, even if you are black like you claim.

how the hell is paying or recieving a debt owed giving a "hand out."

if you want to prove you're a black white nationalist and not a white white nationalist, come by the uhuru food booth where we raise GENUINE REPARATIONS and say hello to me in person. we'll be set up and selling food at the big anti-war rally on sunday. can't miss us!

As I have stated in earlier posts, the issue of my color was to refute the assumption that all blacks would support reparations. It is in that context that the color of my skin matters. All of my other arguments have absolutely NOTHING to do with how light or dark I look.

Also, as I have stated earlier in this thread, my ethnicity has been stated on a handful of other posts on IndyMedia in the several months since I've started perusing this site. If you don't believe me, there is a nice little search engine on the site that can look up postings by author....so screw yourself.

My personal argument is based on the fact that I came from a poor area, have delt with racism from whites and see it delt from blacks with equal fervor. Both sides are to blame for continual racial hatred.

If we are to prove that we do not need help from the goverment as a community, we must study hard in our schools, work hard when the oportunity for hard work is made, and reject the self-defeating mindset that we are owed something because of who our parents were.

Personally, when I start seeing lawsuits from immigrants from Zimbabwe against Robert Mugabe for his genocidal philosophies or people of Irish descent suing the British Goverment for their oppression and subsequent move to America, I might start believing that the American Dream has died.

People come here from all over the world to succeed....and there isn't a better place on earth to do it.

Education is what can lift up a culture and make it succeed. Education, not dollars randomly thrown, is what bridges the gap.

The goverment can not make up for the sins of the past. No apology will ever satisfy certain individuals. What can help us as a community is to make sure that parents stay on their children to study and get into colleges. With Pell Grants and Financial Aid, anyone from the poorest of counties can get into college.

All it takes to succeed in this country is to bust your butt.

Most legal immigrants from Africa, percentage wise, do better than American's of African descent.

Why is that, do you suppose? They have the desire to succeed. They work hard, save money, and press on when faced with adversity.

Most of the problems with Black America can be nullified by the persons who can do the most: Black America.

Reparations are not the solution. Education is.

I know that *CON-FUZZZED* -- always hypocritical -- Uncle Tom House Niggas like Uber-Uncle Tom Nerd would be pushing little old Black ladies out of the way to be the first in line.

(If this gets deleted by Untersufe's white protectors at sf.indymedia, I will just post under another name from another computer.)

God, you are pathetic.

I don't need, nor want reparations. I made my life successful through hard work, not whining like you appear to do.

By the way...you still suck at giving insults.

But keep typing away, my little goose-stepping friend. I'm sure all the other nice little nazi's are proud of you.

Hey, matthew, isn't there a reparations conference or two coming up soon? What about the event at the Mandela Arts Center on Saturday?

Instead of just inviting Unter to some private little meeting at an Uhuru table, why not make it a PUBLIC event?: invite tha Massa-luvin' Unterstufe to participate in A PUBLIC DEBATE(!)on the next public reparations conference/panel. He would actually be *THE BEST* person--EVEN BETTER THAN SOMEONE WHITE! (assuming he really is just some neeegro)--to represent all the ignorant arguments, mythologies, and fallacies for the anti-reparations side: and Unter's got 'em all down!--He wouldn't miss a one!!!

And, indeed, if Unter really is Black that would make it ALL THE BETTER!!! -- because as Malcolm said, the House Niggas--who don't have **NO** complaints--except about the field negroes grumpin'--just *LOVE* this country--even more than the Ole Massa's do!: "OHHH, OLE MASSA'S HOUSE IS FIIINNNE!!!" Unter believes in the system more than most whites do! [Look at all those already even highly *profitable* white corporations--that this country's 'wonderful' capitalist system, "founding fathers", and national resources (even in white labor) helped build--that move their jobs, money and investments (in offshore accounts) overseas whenever they get ready!]

You see, I don't have much time at all for private, semi-private or small exposure debates with people like Unter. It's more fun more me to make fun of people like Unter to expose their real nature. But I'd have all the time in the world for a big public serious debate with people like him. I love to intellectually expose and tear down people like Unter's arguments in front of a nice big audience. (After all, I did it to David Horowitz--and sent him turned tail 'n running! And I embarrassed the UC Berkeley College Republican organizers in the process when they, confused and perplexed, abruptly pulled the plug on the debate--on Horowitz's say so! Oh the campus papers had a great time with *that* the next day! Actually, to my surprise, even a few of the little rank-&-file College Republicans--naive, disillusioned "true believers" I guess--admitted that Horowitz pulled a chickenshit run-away.)

But bring a tape recorder for the public debate, though, because people like Unter, when they get caught up in the own fallacies and convolutions, like to say that they didn't say something that they did just a moment ago. Of course, a public audience can also keep someone like Unter from lying their ass off too about what they said, when they are caught by their debate opponent.

How 'bout it Unter: put up or shut up! Are you up for a REAL debate!?--against an INFORMED opponent!?

(Can you imagine how publicly *STOOOPID* Unter would look yappin' about Nazis or some such inane irrelevancies as his argument or comeback!?)

yeah, that would be great! while the program is pretty set right now, uber nerd is most welcome to come to our reparations tribunal to put out his position, during the open forum. here's a link to the info:

http://www.uhurureparations.org

i'd love for you to explain to saikou diallo to his face why his son was murdered for trying to get his wallet out of his pocket, why the nyc police shot him 41 times, including through his feet as he lay prone on the concrete dying, and why the nyc police who murdered him were able to walk. tell him how if his son had just worked hard, kept his nose clean, he could have made lived the "american dream" just like all americans. tell saikou diallo to stop whining about reparations. saikou will be there tomorrow.

but if you can't make it tomorrow, i'd love to debate you publically on this matter some other time. if you really are black, that would be great. imagine a reparations debate where the pro reparations voice is from a white person, and the anti-reparations voice is from a black person! that would be something, and it would reinforce the idea that the reparations issue isn't divided along color lines. you should be all for it, since you claim the basis for you putting out your "race" with every post is too make it clear that not all blacks support reparations (even though, this is obvious, no one has argued to the contrary, and you opened up in this thread saying your opinion should matter more because of your claimed race). conversely, i'm interested in demonstrating that not all whites oppose reparations. so lets do it!

my email is thew94610 [at] yahoo.com. drop me a line. (this invitation is open to anyone who thinks they can make a good debate opposing reparations.)

*NOW*...!: what *YOU* got ta say!?

First off, since you two can’t cease harping about what color I am, from here on out, I’m not going to continue having to hash and re-hash the same explanations of why it was listed in the first place.

Secondly, JA is still one of the biggest racists I’ve ever encountered. I, personally, don’t give two squirts of urine what color HE may or not be, but his commentary shows a complete lack of understanding about what it means to be equal in this society AND to try to ensure that equality.

Third, I’m more than happy to set up a debate with you two losers. When are you going to be in Birmingham again? You know…Birmingham? Site of the Civil Rights Museum? Site of the 16th street Baptist church? Bull Conner and his Dogs? Oh yeah…you two have probably never been there. See…if you guys actually did a little something called RESEARCH and did what I’ve suggest you two jack-booted thugs do FOR THE LAST FRIGGIN WEEK and look up my former posts, you might know this little tidbit of information

But you didn’t, and you probably still won’t. That only proves ignorance on your part and goes back to what I was saying earlier…the only way to win out is to get a decent education. I used to live in SF and I’ve stuck around on this site since I moved back…which you might also have known if you’d done your homework.

Of course, you might actually HAVE looked that info up and are trying to use it as a way to discredit me. “Oh….NOW he say he don’t live in tha area?”….words I fully expect to hear from JA or something with a hint more of class but the same underlying racism that would come from Matthew. How close to the target have I hit, worms?

And lastly, you two might want to come up around March 22nd. You see, one of the community service groups I work with is doing a project to replace some of the tiles at the 16th Baptist Church. We’ve done work there before. Tell ya what...when you get there and before we start the debate, why don’t you ask around and find out just how much of a “house negro” I am.

You two jaggoff’s might even do something useful and give us a hand, instead of whining and protesting to people who aren’t listening anyway.


Oh…and one more thing…if I hadn’t had to come into the office tonight, you would’ve had to wait till Monday to hear back from me. You see, I have more important things in my life to worry about than the 10-20mins I waste arguing with you pricks while I’m eating lunch.

Happy Belated Valentine’s!

P.S. JA...it's nice to see that you STILL HAVEN'T FOUND A QUOTE FROM MLK FAVORING REPARATIONS!!!

P.P.S. It's also nice to see that you've given up on the ability to try and out-do me with German insults. You still suck.

My hat is off to Uber-Nerd.

Although I'm against reparations, Martin Luther King did support them:

"A society that has done something special against the Negro for hundreds of years must now do something special for the Negro"

"Within common law we have ample precedents for special compensatory programs.... And you will remember that America adopted a policy of special treatment for her millions of veterans after the war"

Tim

People like Uber-nerd give the lie to much of reparations rhetoric.

Uber-nerd isn't a house n____. He's a black conservative. While most blacks don't identify as such, uber-nerd's politics are far more palatable to affluent/"middle-class" blacks than to working class and poor blacks.

To the extent that the reparations demand *appears* to speak on an ethical and moral level to the injustices of black poverty it does so in a way that offers no strategic course of action. Rightists beat on the reparations demand not because they fear it, but because they love it. It plays into their game-plan of dividing everyone along race lines, while concealing the massive class divisions in American society.

Rightists know that the demand for reparations will fail because it doesn't attempt to draw the fight along class lines.

THAT is their biggest fear.

Huh uber-nerd?

"First off, since you two can’t cease harping about what color I am..."

Oh, blow me!: We've (matthew and I) have both accepted that you might be some Massa blowin' House Nigga Oreo (well, matthew was too polite to put it that way)!

In slavery, as Malcolm X said, they stole our culture, they stole our religion, they stole our language, and by the way some people act, they even stole their--your--mind!! THAT'S YOU, UNTERSTUFE! (What kind of real Black man would even call himself a nerd in the first place!? That's a WHITE word of derision.)

I'd LOVE to see matthew, a white guy--BUT NOT *MENTALLY* WHITE!--IN FACT, MATTHEW IS MORE BLACK THAN YOU ARE--give you an Alabama whoopin' in a debate on reparations!

Unter-HN: "you two have probably never been there"

I'll say one thing for you: you got more MOUTH than brains! I've been all over the South! Both my parent's large families are from the South--and ended up everywhere east of the Mississippi! (Well, not in Maine or New Hamshire.) So, you don't even know what you're talking about there either!

Unter-HN: "I used to live in SF and I’ve stuck around on this site since I moved back"

Oh, you're probably STILL out here, just decided to hide out now! You DAMN RIGHT!!

Unter-HN: "[i] replace some of the tiles at the 16th Baptist Church"

You ain't fit to touch the toilets there!

Unter-HN: "if I hadn’t had to come into the office tonight..."

Yeah, yeah,....whatever.... (You mean CLEANING the office! Don't forget those wastebaskets! And Massa TOLLLD you to stay off his computer, before you neeegro-mess it up!)

Unter-HN: "you would’ve had to wait till Monday to hear back from me."

'LUCKY' US!!

Unter-HN: "you've given up on the ability to try and out-do me with German insults"

You mean your little German phrase book insults that you learned as a grunt in the military? My co-worker could read that: and she doesn't even speak German!! Your German is about as lame as your intellect--what little there is of either.

Unter-HN: "P.S. JA...it's nice to see that you STILL HAVEN'T FOUND A QUOTE FROM MLK FAVORING REPARATIONS!!!"

In one of my post that one of these white boys from INDYMEDIA deleted to cover yo ass, I already told you that I wasn't doing your work for you, Mr. "I'm replacing the tiles at 16th Street Baptist Church but have white man's shit for brains?" But Tim--a white guy--who even opposes reparations--below your comment post has found your MLK quotes, DUMMKOPF!! (All you had to do was to pick up a book. You *do* know what a book is, don't you? Got any in your apartment? I guess that you weren' t one of those neeegroes that made it to AP History, huh?

Unter-HN: "look up my former posts, you might know this little tidbit of information But you didn’t, and you probably still won’t."

You must think that you're pretty important for anyone to spend any time digging up your backgroud *or* your past posts! You lucky I'm taking time to insult you! You had just made yourself a big enough fool to make it worth my while.

Unter-HN: "why don’t you ask around and find out just how much of a “house negro” I am."

I'll tell the folk how much of a house *NIGGA* you are right now!: NOW, Unter is what Malcolm called the HOUSE NIGGA --[YOU WHITE BOYS AT ***INDYMEDIA*** BETTER NOT DELETE THIS THIS TIME OR I'LL COME TO THE NEXT MEETING AND CUSS YO ASS OUT!!!]--. And the HOUSE NIGGA ***LOVED*** Ole Massa. When Ole Massa was sick, Unter said, "WE sick Massa?" And when the field Negro hated Massa's house, the HOUSE NIGGA said, "Ole Massa's house is jes' *fiiinnne*"--with a big ol' wiiiide half watermelon smile!--"the bestest house there ever was!" Now, print that up and give it to the folk in Birmingham. Even your moniker is some little white name: Unter-Nerdo. What kind of a REAL Black man calls himself something like that!? I bet you just *hate* rap music, DON'T YOU!? Ever heard of Ice Cube??? I bet his rap song "Be True to the Game", fits you just right!

If you're doing all this community service work, a regular activist, a pilar of the community, THEN WHAT'S YOU NAME? YOU HAVE NO REASON TO BE ANONYMOUS, IF YOU'RE DOING SUCH GREAT AND PUBLIC WORK IN THE COMMUNITY?

You know my name and matthew's name (that is his real name). So, give us your name and I'll call down there and find out if anyone has EVEN heard of you?

Unter: "You still suck."

You don't even insult "black". You insult like some squeeky little white "Nerdo" kid that you call yourself--with a high-pitched nasaly voice too, I bet. I got WHITE friends--even female--who can insult more "black" than you can.

Now are ya *done* beatin' yo hed on my knuckles!? Hahaha...!

What is funny about this is that, they will probably keep his comment on here but the deleted mine.

to the idiot who still believes that jews were enslaved and built the pyramids, i suggest to get another source for history beyond the bible and hollywood movies.

most the pyramids of egypt were built during the third and fourth dynasties 2700-2500 bc
the biblical figure, moses--still a disputed as a historical figure--was not to have "led the jews out of egypt" till the nineteenth dynasty 1300-1200 bc.

As for Tim’s commentary, those quotes are attributed to MLK’s preference for Affirmative Action, NOT reparations. It was Dr.King himself, as chair of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference (SCLC), who initiated the first, successful, national affirmative action policy in the U.S.-- "Operation Breadbasket."

Cash payouts as an “apology” for the sins of the past was not on his agenda. Having the government give a boost to bring the black community into equality with the rest of America WAS part of his agenda. Something I, for the record, supported.

And Tim…you might have wanted put the quote in the context it was given: “"A society that has done something special against the Negro for hundreds of years must now do something special for the Negro” to compete on a just and equal basis. It was about elevating us to the point where we could compete effectively in society.

Further more, MLK can be quoted as saying “This is a multi-racial nation where all groups are dependent on each other." Not against each other as people like JA would like.

Oh…as for me not reading...here’s a nice long quote for you:

***Begin Quote***

In this way, the nation was compensating the veteran for his time lost, in school or in his career or in business. Such compensatory treatment was approved by the majority of Americans. Certainly the Negro has been deprived . Few people consider the fact that, in addition to being enslaved for two centuries, the Negro was, during all those years, robbed of the wages of his toil. No amount of gold could provide an adequate compensation for the exploitation and humiliation of the Negro in America down through the centuries. Not all the wealth of this affluent society could meet the bill. Yet a price can be placed on unpaid wages. The ancient common law has always provided a remedy for the appropriation of the labor of one human being by another. This law should be made to apply for American Negroes. The payment should be in the form of a massive program by the government of special, compensatory measures which could be regarded as a settlement in accordance with the accepted practice of common law. Such measures would certainly be less expensive than any computation based on two centuries of unpaid wages and accumulated interest.
I am proposing, therefore, that, just as we granted a GI Bill of Rights to war veterans, America launch a broad-based and gigantic Bill of Rights for the Disadvantaged, our veterans of the long siege of denial.
Such a bill could adapt almost every concession given to the returning soldier without imposing an undue burden on our economy. A Bill of Rights for the Disadvantaged would immediately transform the conditions of Negro life. The most profound alteration would not reside so much in the specific grants as in the basic psychological and motivational transformation of the Negro. I would challenge skeptics to give such a bold new approach a test for the next decade. I contend that the decline in school dropouts, family breakups, crime rates, illegitimacy, swollen relief rolls and other social evils would stagger the imagination. Change in human psychology is normally a slow process, but it is safe to predict that, when a people is ready for change as the Negro has shown himself ready today, the response is bound to be rapid and constructive.
While Negroes form the vast majority of America's disadvantaged, there are millions of white poor who would also benefit from such a bill. The moral justification for special measures for Negroes is rooted in the robberies inherent in the institution of slavery. Many poor whites, however, were the derivative victims of slavery. As long as labor was cheapened by the involuntary servitude of the black man, the freedom of white labor, especially in the South, was little more than a myth. It was free only to bargain from the depressed base imposed by slavery upon the whole labor market. Nor did this derivative bondage end when formal slavery gave way to the de-facto slavery of discrimination. To this day the white poor also suffer deprivation and the humiliation of poverty if not of color. They are chained by the weight of discrimination, though its badge of degradation does not mark them. It corrupts their lives, frustrates their opportunities and withers their education. In one sense it is more evil for them, because it has confused so many by prejudice that they have supported their own oppressors.
Martin Luther King, Jr., "Why We Can't Wait," pages 137-138, published by Mentor (Penguin Books, New York, 1963).

***END QUOTE***

If you’ve actually read this, King was inclusive of ALL colors of humanity that were in poverty, but at the time the majority, and to some degree today, were black. That last paragraph shows

It was about economic equality, not giving out a lump payment and some punk-ass “I’m sorry” from the government.

As for Arron’s comment’s, I have ZERO fear of it being a class issue. I am as much a “Rightist” as you are a “leftist,” and all the honors that go with that title to us both.

Those living in poverty is DEFINITELY an issue to address….one which Doctor King Illustrated in the above quote. Also, I believe that opportunities SHOULD be given to those under economic strain, but not in the sense of a “Dole.” There are limits that must be made and people must be motivated to work for themselves, not have the taxpayers work for them.

And on to JA.

I detest “Rap.” It does no good but glorify violence and racial stereotypes. I personally prefer Ella Fitzgerald, Louis Armstrong (Good ol’ Satchmo), Dizzy Gillespie, Muddy Waters, etc. I could go on, but you probably wouldn’t recognize any other names. In fact, the only “musician” that you’ve listed was Ice Cube. I’ve never really cared for his music, but I loved him in “Barbershop.” A really good movie.

As for referring to myself as “Nerd,” it’s a moniker that the guys in my department use throw in the faces of others. As you are prone to use “Nigga” to me and other blacks, for a white guy to say it would require having his ass beat. Conversely, by calling myself a nerd, it’s a polite middle-finger to those outside the computer profession who looked down upon us in high school and college. In the computer world, it doesn’t matter what you look like, it matters how good your skills are. Since you can’t get past color, you’ll never understand that.

I’ll send you some pics from the church sometime. I’ll post a few of me and mine working at the soup kitchens helping out the homeless. If I can find ‘em, I’ll also send some along of our groups protesting Klan parades in Lynn Park. That’s on the North Side of Birmingham, in case you can’t remember from the last time you were here. 8o)

Just because I don’t support Reparations, you have to resort to vicious racial taunts. You are nothing more than a pathetic worm. It’s people like you who, both black and white, that keep us at arms length. You don’t have a single clue about the real world.

As for looking up my previous posts, that was to prove that I have in the past stated things that I state today. To prove that they are NOT made up on the spur of the moment. For you to actually look them up would be for you to face your own ignorance and to be proven WRONG. We can’t have that now, can we, my little goose-stepper?

As for names, you are JA. There is nothing else listed. Matthew is only “Matthew.” Nothing else listed. Would giving my first name and or last name to a bunch of people who are so radically stuck in their beliefs that they even threaten violence to those who disagree with them…something you’ve done towards me....is a smart thing to do? Alas, no. This is for discussion of ideas anonymously, not opening ones personal life up to rejects from the projects such as you.

As for speaking “Black,” and can do so if I chose. I simply chose not to due to the less than useful value of slang. Resorting to such taunts is sad and low and exhibits no mastery over the English language, nor any other language, for that matter.

And as for my German, I believe what I said will translate into “Go suck the balls of a goat, you son of a communist pig.” I thought it was rather inventive myself.

Wünschen Sie mehr?

Ihre Mutter war eine Dirne. Ihr Vater war ein Bastardkind eines Prostituierteen. Sie sind noch eine Endlosschraube.

Happy Translating.

Of…and for those of you who’ve actually read this far, JA has consistently been calling me Dummkoff. Well, sport, it’s Dummkopf, (Use the “P,” retard) which translates from it’s two separate parts “dumm” and “kopf” which means “Stupid Head,” or to extrapolate as to it’s more English translation, a fool.

So…if you want to keep calling me a “stupid head,” I expect you be using some more fourth grade taunts and call me a “Potty Mouth” and “booger face” next.

JA…you are such a loser, I can’t even begin to imagine the pathetic world you’ve locked yourself into.

"Third, I’m more than happy to set up a debate with you two losers."

like i said, my email is thew94610 [at] yahoo.com. my full name is matthew willis. no shame in my game, and i hope like hell you contact me so we can set up some public discussion. however, if you don't contact me, or make some way to contact you, your statement above is an outright lie.

" Would giving my first name and or last name to a bunch of people who are so radically stuck in their beliefs that they even threaten violence to those who disagree with them…"

you support america, which is the biggest killer of people who disagree with it in the history of the world, with the same mouth you make statement. you think america is absolved from its crimes against african people, and anyone who would demand it pay for those crimes is a "racist." look at the picture of fred hampton i posted a few days ago. thats what america does to people who disagree with it, especially black people. be proud, uber-nerd; what a fucking hypocrit you are, which is synonymous with american patriot.

Uber-fool HN said: "Of…and for those of you who’ve actually read this far, JA has consistently been calling me Dummkoff. Well, sport, it’s Dummkopf, (Use the “P,” retard) which translates from it’s two separate parts “dumm” and “kopf” which means “Stupid Head,” or to extrapolate as to it’s more English translation, a fool."


JA:

JA Sunday February 16, 2003 at 04:49 AM:

"But Tim--a white guy--who even opposes reparations--below your comment post has found your MLK quotes, DUMMKOPF!!"

--This doesn't count the times my posts to you were previously deleted (perhaps by someone at sf.inydmedia).

NOW, WHO'S THE *REEETARD*?: SOME UNTER-NERDO WHO *CAN'T* EVEN READ, I'D SAY!!

...THAT'S JUST WHAT YOU ARE: A *FFFOOOLLL*!!

(I guess you weren' t one of those neeegroes that made it to remedial reading, huh?)

"SHEEEE-IT"!!
by JA Sunday February 16, 2003 at 04:49 AM:

JA to Uber-Fool: "I bet you just *hate* rap music, DON'T YOU!?"


Uber-Fool: To Tim, Arron, and JA
by Uber-Nerd Monday February 17, 2003 at 09:22 AM:

"I DETEST “Rap.”


JA: I ***TOLLLD*** Y'ALL!!

NEED I SAY MORE?

Young people -- now often counseled by rap statesmen and stateswomen and rap veterans now even in their 30's and 40's -- the world over have turned onto rap! In the middle of Berlin!: the first thing I saw going from the Zoologischer Garten bahnhof (train station) to the first gift shop I went into on Budapester Strasse were Public Enemy, Ice T, Ice Cube, etc., albums, posters and t-shirts. But Uber-Fool-Oreo is just like those neeegroes who rejected bebop back then -- that is, until white folks (usually coming from Europe) told them it was okay to listen to and that the real deal was excellent! Anytime one hears anyone put ALL rap music--or almost any music--into one "stereotype" (while complaining that all rap music itself stereotypes), they know that they can just get up and leave, because they're listening to a goddam UBER-FOOL!!

Now how is UBER-FOOL supposed to be connected to the community with that kind of ignorance! I bet that the youngbloods in Birmingham all know that he is just some boorish old weak ass, shufflin', Massa-lovin', whipped-down boot-lickin' fool anyway -- and laugh behind his back. They know that ole Massa lovin' Uber-House Nigga would have ratted out slave escape plans -- would have turned in Harriet Tubman herself, if he could have -- for an extra dibs on chittlins from ole Massa's pigs.

In fact, just to show you all that Uber-Fool-Oreo don't know anything about the essence and ethos of bebop, rap music's ethos has EXACT parallels with both bebop (that's what Diz played, UHN, since you just threw Diz's name out there without any real knowledge: you superficial dilettante) *AND* GERMAN EXPRESSIONISM. (Now, I won't even go into 'classical' music parallels, like Purcell's "catches.") And if you listen to bebop giant Miles Davis (Miles would smack the shit out of Uber-Fool if Fool came up to him), he did a rap-bebop album before he died. The contemporary group Alphabet Soup hooked up bebop with hiphop. Modern avant-garde jazz innovators like Steve Coleman with his "mbase", or to a lesser extent Greg Osby (the rest of you gotta check out Osby's excellent vocals on the Mr. Gutterman track off his stimulating and excellent 3-D Lifestyles album) both have hooked up rap with jazz.

Lastly, one of my housemates, who was accepted to Harvard (who asked *her* to apply to them), Stanford, Berkeley, and ALL the other schools she applied to -- of course she's Phi Beta Kappa -- listens to rap -- including political rap, general consciousness rap, and even "gangsta rap". Another friend of mine who is a classical musicologist (I'm talking Ph.D.) also listens to rap music.

LISTEN!!, UBER-FOOL : IF YOU ***EVER*** *REALLY* THINK YOU CAN INTELLECTUALLY OUTDO ME, YOU BETTA WAKE YO FLAT SKINNY NARROW WHITENING-CREAMED BONEY ASS UP OUTTA YOUR ***DREAM*** -- AND ***APOLOGIZE***!!!

NOW GET OUTTA MY FACE!!

Jesus, who put a nickle in JA?

Uber-Fool: "As for names, you are JA. There is nothing else listed. Matthew is only “Matthew.” "

JA: I'm Joseph from Berkeley: J-o-s-e-p-h A-n-d-e-r-s-o-n. How many times did I have to list it above!? (I guess you weren' t one of those neeegroes that made it to remedial reading, huh?) I intellectually kick fool's asses and post articles/comments on indymedia: some of them, the formal articles of my friends', like Jeffrey Blankfort or Davey D; others my own casual articles/posts.

I also gave you a link above to my San Francisco Chronicle and Brown University Daily Herald columns on Reparations (Different versions also appeared in other newspapers, including one in Canada).

http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/02/1570543_comment.php#1572619

SLAVERY REPARATIONS COLUMNS -- SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE ; BROWN UNIVERSITY'S BROWN DAILY HERALD:

For an intelligent analysis and historical review on the issue of reparations you can go to:

San Francisco Chronicle (shorter version)--

The Issue is Racism:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2001/03/26/ED155503.DTL

(including email this to a friend link)

follow-up letter to the editor--

Twisted Claim:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2001/03/27/ED187756.DTL


Longer version -- Brown University Daily Herald and several other university newspapers, as well as available online):

Horowitz’s ad uses racist arguments to further claims (4/10/2001):

http://www.browndailyherald.com/stories.asp?dbversion=2&storyID=4433

(including email this to a friend link)


Now, you were given a chance to come down and meet matthew yourself at a Reparations conference (and even ask some debate questions), but now you're suddenly "in Birminghan", hiding out.

But I say AGAIN!!: If you're doing all this community service work, a regular activist, a pilar of the community, THEN WHAT'S YOU NAME? YOU HAVE NO REASON TO BE ANONYMOUS, IF YOU'RE DOING SUCH GREAT AND PUBLIC WORK IN THE COMMUNITY?


Uber-Fool: "Nothing else listed. Would giving my first name and or last name to a bunch of people who are so radically stuck in their beliefs that they even threaten violence to those who disagree with them…something you’ve done towards me....is a smart thing to do?"

JA: WHERE!? WHERE HAS *ANYONE* THREATENED YOU WITH VIOLENCE!? WHERE!? PUT UP OR SHUT UP!!

What!? You think that matthew and I are going to hunt you down--supposedly now in Alabama--to whoop your ass!? You ain't important enough for anyone to dig up your background, dig up your other posts on sf.indymedia, or to even work up a breath to do you any violence. What!? You scared of matthew and me *WAY* down there in Alabama. BOY!: you *ARE* a *SCARED, whipped down, NEEEGRO*!!! C'mon!: It's more fun to whoop yo ass *INTELLECTUALLY*!! THAT'S AN ASS WHOOPIN' THAT AIN'T ***EVER*** GOIN' LEAVE YOU!!


Uber-Fool: "Alas, no. This is for discussion of ideas anonymously, not opening ones personal life up to rejects from the projects such as you."

JA: UMMM-HUMPH: Just as I thought: you ain't sheee-it!! You ain't *NO ONE*!! And *NO ONE* down in Birmingham or anywhere else would have ever heard of you!!--except as "the town Tom". I *know* that NO ONE ever heard of you up here either!! You just don't want the public--hell, *ANYONE*--especially the folk you *claim* you serving so well--to know who's gettin' his intellectual ass whooped!!

(I could intellectually whoop yo ass in other sf.indymedia threads too, but you just ain't worth my time. But, I see that you're just as ignorant and reactionary on everything else that I have happened to come across with your "Nerdy" white moniker.)


--YO! UBER-HOUSE NIGGA!!: DON'T I HEAR OLE MASSA CALLIN' YOU? YOU BETTA HIGH-TAIL IT UP TO MASSA'S HOUSE! YOU KNOW HE DON'T LIKE YOU TO BE LATE WHEN HE NEED HIS BOOTS LICK-SHINED!!!

Uber-Fool: "As for Tim’s commentary, those quotes are attributed to MLK’s preference for Affirmative Action, NOT reparations."

JA:

King was even an early proponent of reparations. In his 1964 book, Why We Can’t Wait, he wrote:

" No amount of gold [figuratively speaking, that is; I'd take a mere $10-million dollars (today's personal injury lawsuit awards--over much less than 350 years of slavery and American apartheid--are commonly less than that)] could provide an adequate compensation for the exploitation and humiliation of the Negro in America down through the centuries…Yet a price can be placed on unpaid wages. The ancient common law has always provided a remedy for the appropriation of a the labor of one human being by another. This law should be made to apply for American Negroes. The PAYMENT should be in the form of a massive program by the government of special, COMPENSATORY measures [THIS IS CALLED *REPARATIONS* -- something that govts award as a result of legislation (like the GI Bill, awarded to a different class of people based, in part, on their losses, except that the draft was an obligation of citizenship, not a mass human rights violation) -- what is called "DAMAGES" in a civil lawsuit award/settlement-- and which I prefer to call *RESTITUTION* because it more clearly states what it is: DAMAGES awarded on the basis of placing someone or a party (in this case a class of people) in the position THEY *WOULD* *HAVE* BEEN IN (similarly socioeconomically developed to whites, unless you believe in racial genetic inferiority, as Uber-Fool lends credence to) had a wrong not been committed/sustained against that someone/party in the first place.] which could be regarded as a settlement IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE ACCEPTED PRACTICE OF COMMON LAW. "

Predicting that critics (and Massa's Uncle Toms) would note that many whites were equally disadvantaged, King then claimed that his program, which he called the "Bill of Rights for the Disadvantaged" would help poor whites as well. This is because once the blacks received reparations, the poor whites would realize that their real enemy was rich whites.

In his book, I May Not Get There With You: The True Martin Luther King, University of Pennslyvania professor, author (Between God and Gangsta Rap; Holler If You Hear Me: Searching for Tupac Shakur; and numerous other books, publications, essays, commentaries, and columns), public lecturer Michael Eric Dyson -- a friend of mine -- shows that King supported both affirmative action and reparations.

Another friend of mine, Paul Rockwell, has also written numerous articles on this topic. His work can be found online under a search on his name.

Now, enough of takin' you to school and whoopin' yo ass, Uber-Fool. Are you done ***YET*** beatin' yo hed on my knuckles!? Haha...! 'Cause if you not: too bad -- then you just a self-hating masochist and I ain't got no mo' time for you and yo critically uneducated yip-yap yip-yap ass! It's not *my* job to educationally raise you. (In language you might understand, "Go to tha 'libary'--Fool--and raise yo' self up!!") As *RAPPER* KRS-1 says, "Get your head off the pillow put a *BOOK* in it!"

Now Uber-Nerdo AUS!!!

Forgive me, as I am not a scholar of the German, but wasn't "unterstufe" an idea used by Hitler to categorize all those "lower" people who deserved the furnace?

Tim

“Unterstufe” literally translates to “Lower Level.” Tim, I believe you are correct with Hitler's usage.

Eventhough I am by no means a German Major either, I believe that "Uber-Nerd" said that JA's mother was a "whore," that his father was the "Bastard son of a Prostitute," and then called him either an "ground slug" or an "earthworm," but I'm not sure. My German is pretty rusty.

Just FYI for those keeping up.

Okay, interesting article at the top.

If Colonialism was a direct attack on Africa, and Africa is the homeland of all Africans, then why are you guys bitching to the US goverment over thing that happend 200 years ago and not in Africa RIGHT NOW trying to make it a homeland worthy of all Africans?

An honest question

As much as I distain the thought of living in "anarchy", I would gladly do my part in ensuring that it succeeded before I would ever agree to reparations to blacks in America. I never owned a slave. I cannot be held accountable for something that people who have gone before me have done. The responsibility of slavery lies with those who are currently engaged in the action (places in modern day Africa) and which those who have died who participated. If a murder was committed in 1900, and by use of DNA evidence we can conclude in 2003 that the person who committed the crime was John Smith Brown of Pittsburg, PA who died in 1938, his children should not serve time because of their fathers crime. In the same manner, we should not serve time (pay reparations) for what someone else did (whom we had no control over).

No Reparations!!

you don't see Europe considering reparations! They after all were the 'kidnappers'.

you don't see Europe considering reparations! They after all were the 'kidnappers'.

you don't see Europe considering reparations! They after all were the 'kidnappers'.

"If a murder was committed in 1900, and by use of DNA evidence we can conclude in 2003 that the person who committed the crime was John Smith Brown of Pittsburg, PA who died in 1938, his children should not serve time because of their fathers crime."

how about if John Smith stole a fortune from James Roberts? Does John Smith have the right to pass that along to his children? Do James Roberts children have to live in poverty because their father was robbed?

To address the issue you brought up, we'll take into account the recent story of a Van Gogh that had belonged to a Jewish woman, stolen by the Nazi's, and was auctioned recently...by someone other than her decendants.

The solution? Since a descernable decendant was located, and the object, UNLIKE MONEY, was still intact and had not been diffused, an agreement was made.

The new owner and the descendant of the Jewish woman have, as far as I know, agreed to sell the painting and split the money.

What have we learned from this?

1. Someone who had no idea or any link to the Nazi's just lost millions. It wasn't the owner didn't know of the history of the item.

Would that have been fair to the owner had it been forced? No. The owner took it upon itself to do what it felt was the right thing. The owner was not forced by a goverment to give anything to the descendant. Consequently, the descendant plans to donate all of the money to Jewish History Museums. Nice, eh?

2. The auctioneer...while making a profit....was not liable for anything.

Why? He didn't take it by force. The owner didn't take it by force. The owner didn't have to do anything.

If you could trace every single dollar, then yes, Reparations could be done. But, you can't. It's impossible at this point to persue reparations from that angle.

It's in the charecter of the individual to make amends, not in the policies of a Nation. By being respectful of others and furthering equality, we can attempt to understand the positions of others and move towards a brighter AND EQUAL future.

“how about if John Smith stole a fortune from James Roberts?”

The responsible party was John Smith, not his ancestors 138 years later.

Seeing your responses, you’re like a tele-marketer that can’t take “No” when the phone is repeatedly slammed down in your ear. For the last time, the answer is “NO!!” Now, kindly take my name, along with all other Americans who do not wish to buy what you are selling, off your calling list. For the last time, We Don’t Want Any!

No Reparations!!

JA…by your own article against David Horowitz on this very issue…who I personally dislike…I’ll explore a few of you’re points.

First off, I want to go on the record saying that I do not agree with David Horowitz and found many flaws in his “10 points.” Some, however, were on the money.


1. You claim that all “Whites” are responsible because they inheirited preferential treatment.

How can you seriously argue this point? Everyone who has immigrated to this country has benefited from everything that has gone on in this country since it’s inception. Them, you, me, everyone. It’s a good place to live and I’m quite happy here. The people in Africa are the ones I worry for.

2. You draw parallels between National Monentary Debt having to span generations to National Moral Debt also having to span generations.

If that logic holds true, then the Nation owes you a Moral debt, not a Monentary debt. How about a BIG “I’m sorry,” and then it’s over? Fact is, people like you can not forgive the sins of the past, no matter what goes on. The only option is to step over loud-mouthed divisives like you, for both whites and blacks, on the way to true understanding and equality.


3. “No government would make the descendents of each beneficiary pay the descendents of each victim for even an inhumane national policy whose detriment still exists”

Simply put, the government should have paid out reparations right after the Civil War. I agree with that whole-heartedly. But you yourself are living proof that a black man can, of his own accord, go to college and further his life. You seem to be doing just as well as I am, if not better. And if you are doing better than me, is that Whitey’s fault? Nope. Sorry I don’t buy that.

You never really addressed an issue I brought up earlier that, much to my chagrin, Horowitz quoted as well: “West Indian blacks in America are also descended from slaves but their average incomes are equivalent to the average incomes of whites ( and nearly 25% higher than the average incomes of American born blacks). How is it that slavery adversely affected one large group of descendants but not the other?”

As much as I hate to agree with Horowitz, he has a point.

Also, your beef is with Whites. What about the other ethnicities that will have to also bare the brunt of reparations to “blacks?” What about the Coolie’s of California? With all your racist taunts, you should know that I’m referencing the Chinese of the era with the name they were known by. What about the Native Americans? What about the Mexicans?
What about the Irish who were treated worse than blacks in the North East? You should know that Irish were often hired over slaves, not because they were white, but because they were expendable. The “employers” didn’t have to worry about reimbursing a slave owner for a dead Irish guy. (I’ve often ribbed a few of my Irish friends over this. It still hacks ‘em off to this day, but they’ll smile and still drink with you.)

Hell…What about the Mexicans who owned Native American Slaves??

Your arguments apply to Ever “color” of America, yet you only want money for us “blacks.” You look to the past. Apparently, you can’t look into the future beyond your own pocket book.

Final thoughts. Having read many of the reports on your discourse with David Horowitz, I am lead to believe that you do not care about debating your ideas so much as shouting them out without the possibility of a contrary view.

And lastly, having seen a picture of you standing on your chair with that constipated expression, I would like to state that you look a little on the light side of the spectrum. I’m what some might have referred to in a bygone era as a “black gum.” You look a little on the “high-yella” side to me, boy.

***The rest of this is all for you***

I’ve seen your article reprinted on several sites and publications, but with at least four different titles. There are probably more.

Also, only one site actually had your name on it in contention during the Q&A session with Horowitz. From all accounts, you’re not one to give someone the chance to voice a response to your comments…which is why you are useless for a actual true debate and are better suited for this media. Which fits nicely, since everyone can take their time and read your racist taunts.

Wait…there’s more…apparently, EVERY site talks about how things were nice and calm before you picked a shouting match and that it was the MC, Ben Carrasco, who unilaterally pulled the plug. You didn’t do squat.

As for your constant raving about Ice Cube, you apparently do that with your published articles. Nice to see that in all the times we’ve argued and of all the articles I’ve read, your one mainstay of music is ICE CUBE. You’ve mentioned no other until I called you on it. Zero. Zilch. Nada. Zip. Goose-egg.

Nice to know you share a name with a Confederate General. That’s awfully white of you.

And lastly, I ACTUALLY did research on you. You know what I found? Just the same old tired crap of your one article…over and over and over again. Nothing else. Still thumping your chest over your fifteen seconds of fame? Yep. You’ve done nothing of note except rant with me online. And as of now…that’s finally bored me.

You cannot debate issues without racial slurs.

You cannot debate issues without skipping over certain points.

Your German insults are sub-par.

You suck.

"If Colonialism was a direct attack on Africa, and Africa is the homeland of all Africans, then why are you guys bitching to the US goverment over thing that happend 200 years ago and not in Africa RIGHT NOW trying to make it a homeland worthy of all Africans?"

"An honest question"

what makes you think the uhuru movement isn't? our leader, omali yeshitela just got back from occupied azania and spoke before a crowd of close to 1,300 people about the need to make africa a "homeland worthy of all africans."

i've got a video if you'd like to see it. email thew94610 [at] yahoo.com.

Well...if what you say is true, then RIGHT ON!! I respect that.

The reparations part, well...I don't agree with that, but I love the ideal goal that you guys are shootin for.

Good luck to ya on the "Betterment of Africa" ideal.

Well...atleast the the people at IndyMedia had the forsight to do what needed to be done and stop this escalating thread. I am as guilty as the others as to prodding each other further and further away from the spirit of IndyMedia.

To those editors who made read this, I do apologize for my previous actions.

Uber-Fool: "You cannot debate issues without racial slurs.": ..."And lastly, having seen a picture of you standing on your chair with that constipated expression, I would like to state that you look a little on the light side of the spectrum. I’m what some might have referred to in a bygone era as a “black gum.” You look a little on the “high-yella” side to me, boy. "

Did you skip out of neeegro remedial reading when they would have taught you how to spell: h-y-p-o-c-r-i-t-e? Africans come in ALL colors! Fffooolll!

Since you are one of those neeegroes all caught up in "the color complex", what color was Malcolm? What used to be his nickname?

What color was W.E.B. DuBois?

What color was A. Phillip Randolph?

What color is Muhammad Ali?

What color is Rosa Parks?

What color is Gordon Parks?

What color was Thurgood Marshall?

What color is Cornel West?

What color was Kwame Ture?

What color is Michael Eric Dyson?

What color is Manning Marable?

What color was Dizzy Gillespie?

What color is Marion Anderson?

What color was Lena Horne?

What color is Ishmael Reed?

What color is Ice T?

ARE YOU *EVER* TIRED OF MAKING A FFFOOOLLL OF YOURSELF?

If you were coal black, you'd still be as mentally WHITE as a SHEET!--with two holes it!--and as WHITE as Ole Massa's ass! In fact, matthew and one of my white housemates (or my other cool white, Native, La Raza, Latino, Asian, and Arab housemates or friends) are more Black than you will *EVER* be!


"Your German insults are sub-par."

Yo, Uber-Fool!: Now *HOW* did you say I *repeatedly* spelled DUMMKOPF?

And *WHAT* is *your* LAST name--you 'pillar' of the "Birmingham" community--again?

And *WHAT* kind of music do you say that you tell the Black youngbloods that you relate to 'SO WELL' "in Birmingham" that you "DETEST"?

Uber-Fool: "You cannot debate issues without racial slurs.": ..."And lastly, having seen a picture of you standing on your chair with that constipated expression, I would like to state that you look a little on the light side of the spectrum. I’m what some might have referred to in a bygone era as a “black gum.” You look a little on the “high-yella” side to me, boy. "

Did you skip out of neeegro remedial reading when they would have taught you how to spell: h-y-p-o-c-r-i-t-e? Africans come in ALL colors! Fffooolll!

Since you are one of those neeegroes all caught up in "the color complex", what color was Malcolm? What used to be his nickname?

What color was W.E.B. DuBois?

What color was A. Phillip Randolph?

What color is Muhammad Ali?

What color is Rosa Parks?

What color is Gordon Parks?

What color was Thurgood Marshall?

What color is Cornel West?

What color was Kwame Ture?

What color is Michael Eric Dyson?

What color is Manning Marable?

What color was Dizzy Gillespie?

What color is Marion Anderson?

What color was Lena Horne?

What color is Ishmael Reed?

What color is Ice T?

ARE YOU *EVER* TIRED OF MAKING A FFFOOOLLL OF YOURSELF?

If you were coal black, you'd still be as mentally WHITE as a SHEET!--with two holes it!--and as WHITE as Ole Massa's ass! In fact, matthew and one of my white housemates (or my other cool white, Native, La Raza, Latino, Asian, and Arab housemates or friends) are more Black than you will *EVER* be!


"Your German insults are sub-par."

Yo, Uber-Fool!: Now *HOW* did you say I *repeatedly* spelled DUMMKOPF?

And *WHAT* is *your* LAST name--you 'pillar' of the "Birmingham" community--again?

And *WHAT* kind of music do you say that you tell the Black youngbloods that you relate to 'SO WELL' "in Birmingham" that you "DETEST"?

Uber-Fool: "You cannot debate issues without racial slurs.": ..."And lastly, having seen a picture of you standing on your chair with that constipated expression, I would like to state that you look a little on the light side of the spectrum. I’m what some might have referred to in a bygone era as a “black gum.” You look a little on the “high-yella” side to me, boy. "

Did you skip out of neeegro remedial reading when they would have taught you how to spell: h-y-p-o-c-r-i-t-e? Africans come in ALL colors! Fffooolll!

Since you are one of those neeegroes all caught up in "the color complex", what color was Malcolm? What used to be his nickname?

What color was W.E.B. DuBois?

What color was A. Phillip Randolph?

What color is Muhammad Ali?

What color is Rosa Parks?

What color is Gordon Parks?

What color was Thurgood Marshall?

What color is Cornel West?

What color was Kwame Ture?

What color is Michael Eric Dyson?

What color is Manning Marable?

What color was Dizzy Gillespie?

What color is Marion Anderson?

What color was Lena Horne?

What color is Ishmael Reed?

What color is Ice T?

ARE YOU *EVER* TIRED OF MAKING A FFFOOOLLL OF YOURSELF?

If you were coal black, you'd still be as mentally WHITE as a SHEET!--with two holes it!--and as WHITE as Ole Massa's ass! In fact, matthew and one of my white housemates (or my other cool white, Native, La Raza, Latino, Asian, and Arab housemates or friends) are more Black than you will *EVER* be!


"Your German insults are sub-par."

Yo, Uber-Fool!: Now *HOW* did you say I *repeatedly* spelled DUMMKOPF?

And *WHAT* is *your* LAST name--you 'pillar' of the "Birmingham" community--again?

And *WHAT* kind of music do you say that you tell the Black youngbloods that you relate to 'SO WELL' "in Birmingham" that you "DETEST"?

you have to be qb! you're off your head.

Sorry all (except to Uber-Fool, who probably needs to see it more than once) about the multiple post above (hopefully two of the three will get removed). Someone at sf.indymedia was apparently doing some work on the website/page and I inadvertantly thought that the server was not responding.

Man....you are just too thick skulled to pick up on anything, aren't you?

The "color" commentary, if you'll forgive the pun, was an attempt to demonstrate the stupidity of using racial slurs, as you continue to do, in the hopes that you would bite on it....which you did....to futher illustrate that you do exactly what you claim to detest.

Yes...you did look constipated in that picture.

Occassionally, you spelled Dummkopf incorrectly...and the rest of your German insults were pathetic at best.

I tell everyone I detest "Rap" music as a whole, for the simple fact that, while in the beginning it had purpose and soul, over the last decade, it is the moral equivalent of horse manure.

As for this thread, have you noticed that we are no longer even remotely discussing the ideas and ramifications of Reparations?

The original subject has been left behind and all we seem to be doing is trading insults; my well worded ones to your racial ones.

I've allowed your hatred of opposition to drag me into a pathetic pissing match.

If you want to act like a snot-nosed punk kid and not be able to handle a debate on the issue itself, then there's nothing to debate.

By the way...."Black" is only a mental construct as much as "White" is. You seem as though you'll never get beyond that.

You'll never understand that we are all part of the HUMAN race. You'll never understand that certain people, who mostly, but not all, were white did horrible things to our ancestors. That is a given. It is also a given that people of our decent have on occassion enslaved people who look just like them....and so on with yellow people...and red people...and so on.

People like you are what keep the races divided when we need to bring them together.

If you can't debate on the issue itself, then we won't debate at all.

Yankee Tuesday February 18, 2003 at 08:39 AM:

"Okay, interesting article at the top.

If Colonialism was a direct attack on Africa, and Africa is the homeland of all Africans, then why are you guys bitching to the US goverment over thing that happend 200 years ago and not in Africa RIGHT NOW trying to make it a homeland worthy of all Africans?

An honest question."


JA's response:

I originally was going to have a bit more patience in resonding to this question, but then I just realized that this guy CLEARLY hasn't even read my column who's link I CLEARLY provided above -- besides his disrepectful approach in his remark about "bitching" (maybe he just doesn't know how to ask "an honest question" any other way) -- let alone to achieve the most basic educational level of American history. --Let alone the general intellectual/educational state of consciousness/awareness of white Americans about the rest of the world.

Now, does it not make you feel a bit uneasy "Yankee" when the descendent of a slave has to tell you--a white guy--that READING IS FUNDAMENTAL!! Get your nose in a book! Like the one I recommended in my column link above (Randal Robinson's book, "The Debt" - check out an Amazon listing). Slavery--on paper--ended in 1865--WHICH WAS NOT 200 YEARS AGO (this slave descendent has to teach you how to subtract too, huh?)--and American apartheid, Jim Crow ended--on paper--beginning in 1954, but really in 1964 with the passage of the landmark Civil Rights Bill of 1964 and in 1965 with the passage of the Voting Rights Act of 1965. So American apartheid lasted another century after slavery. IF YOU READ MY COLUMN BEFORE YOU ASKED YOUR QUESTION -- SOMETHING OPPONENTS OF REPARATIONS NEVER DO IN THE FIRST PLACE -- YOU WOULD HAVE ALREADY KNOWN THAT.

DON'T GET MAD AT ME: ANY UNIVERSITY PROFESSOR WOULD BE JUST AS TICKED OFF AND IMPATIENT IF HIS/HER STUDENTS CAME TO CLASS **UNPREPARED** TO DISCUSS THE ISSUE BECAUSE THEY **HADN'T READ THE MATERIAL**!

Also, lots of Blacks, internationally, have been working on "reparations" for Africa -- at least in the form of "debt cancellation". Africa was divided up by Europe in the late 1800's. This debt was not only a result of STOLEN lives and labor and land and natural resources, like those European countries that funded South African Apartheid, but are still making the ANC government pay for the bill, like those Africans in the Congo are still being forced to pay for the U.S. and Belgium forcing a brutal dictator upon them, after the U.S. and Belgium overthrew a democratically elected government! This was a debt that was the result of stolen resources by European colonial powers--even the so-called "democracies"--in the first place and international forced loan sharking by the IMF and the World Bank. So, Europe--and the shouldn't just be cancelling the debt that was forced upon African countries; in truth, European should be paying back the money or equivalent money in resources that Europe STOLE!

Read Walter Rodney's landmark classic book, How Europe Underdeveloped Africa
Read C.L.R. James landmark book, The Black Jacobins;
Read landmark works by George Padmore.
Read works by Frantz Fanon.

I know that you have never heard of these names - it's the state of the American educational system - but these people were intellectual GIANTS in the field of colonial studies. And they were Black intellectual ICONS in the fight for anti-colonial struggles.

Or read Adam Hochschild's new book King Leopold's Ghost about what used to be called "Poor Little Belguim" during WWI, like Belgium was an innocent Little Red Riding Hood.

Nonetheless, African Americans certainly have every moral right to petition their own government for group redress -- Reparations -- Restitution -- for its direct state complicity in American slavery, the "Black Holocaust", to its mass human rights violations, mass atrocities, and crimes against humanity, and mass civil rights violations. As Jewish Holocaust survivor DePaul University Professor (and author) Norman Finkelstein said, the moral argument is no less weak for African American reparations than for German reparations to Jews.

Had I not been caught off-guard by your "An honest question" ending sentence, I would have just told you what I tersely told someone else above (with my limited time): "LEARN TO READ!," or "READ THE COLUMN!", whatever exactly I said.

For a prominent book similar to Walter Rodney's How Europe Underdeveloped Africa, you can also read very prominent Columbia University Professor Manning Marable's landmark book, How Capitalism Underdeveloped Black America: Problems in Race, Political Economy, and Society.

It is, indirectly, an incisive intellectual response to Uber-Know-nothings. Uber-Fool is not intellectually conversant with any of these books--or with any intellectuals for that matter.

Uber-HN-FOOL!: YOU *DONE* ***YET*** WHOOPIN' YO' HED ON MY KNUCKLES!?

YOU JUST KEEP COMIN' BACK FO' *MO'* WHOOPIN'S, **MO'** WHOOPIN'S, AND ***MO'**'* WHOOPINS', HUH!? YOU LIKE THE WHYTE FOLKS TO KEEP SEE'IN' YOU GET YO' ASS WHOOPED?? OKAY, I'LL OBLIGE YOU ONE MO' TIME!

Uber-Fool: "The "color" commentary, if you'll forgive the pun, was an attempt to demonstrate the stupidity of using racial slurs, as you continue to do."

JA: Blacks can't be racist--but I know that you don't intellectually understand that either--you Massa-suckin' Uber-House Nigga (the only thing that you are Uber at). But, you weren't joking anyway! I just made another FFFOOOLLL of you in the process (processed, just like your mind).

Uber-Fool: "Yes...you did look constipated in that picture."

JA: Yeah, rrrrright! That's why the only housemates I have ever had have been WOMEN!!! Usually two, but sometimes THREE or FOUR at a time in beautiful neighborhoods in New York, St. Louis (the beautiful DeMun area) and Berkeley! (I have a view of downtown San Francisco, the Golden Gate and the Marin Headlands--which is how I check the weather every morning--in my Elmwood-Rockridge residence. What's YOUR view down there in Allybama?)

http://xpress.sfsu.edu/storys01.php?storyid=2831

6'1-1/2" tall ; a trim, fit 180lbs.

AND I MIGHT ADD, WE CERTAINLY DON'T KNOW WHAT **YOU** LOOK LIKE--EXCEPT THAT WE KNOW IT'S "NERDY", WITH A HIGH-PITCHED, *NASALLY* LITTLE VOICE! I bet YOU look, and sound, like WARD CONNERLY! One of my white female housemates said that Connerly sounded like a white comedian imitating the sound of a black comedian imitating the sound of a nerdy suburban white guy: I bet that's what YOU sound like!

"Occassionally, you spelled Dummkopf incorrectly"

JA: FUNNY--YOU CAN'T FIND WHERE I SUPPOSEDLY *DIDN'T* SPELL IT CORRECTLY! YOU **WOULD** HAVE POSTED IT IF YOU *DID* FIND IT? AND WE ALL *KNOW* THAT. SO *WHO* YOU TRYIN' TO FFFOOOLLL!? WHAT DOES THAT SAY TO OTHERS ABOUT YOUR CREDIBILITY? YOUR ASS JUST WENT DOWN IN FLAMES THERE TOO!!

Uber-Fool: "I tell everyone I detest "Rap" music as a whole, for the simple fact that, while in the beginning it had purpose and soul, over the last decade, it is the moral equivalent of horse manure."

JA: WRRRONNNG! In the beginning rap--as Paris of San Francisco even said in his rap song "Break the Grip of Shame" [that's the grip on YOU] that when rap started out it "wasn't saying shit"; it was just mostly dance music and "brag rap". YOU SEE!: YOU JUST YAP YAP YAP AND YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. I ONLY RESPOND SO THAT WHITE FOLKS CAN SEE THAT THERE *ARE* SOME BLACK FFFOOOLLLS: THE KIND THAT LIKE TO SUCK OLD MASSA AND THANK HIM FOR THE PLEASURE!!

Uber-Fool: "As for this thread, have you noticed that we are no longer even remotely discussing the ideas and ramifications of Reparations?"

JA: I WOULD NO MORE SERIOUSLY CARRY ON A SERIOUS INTELLECTUAL DISCUSSION WITH YOU ABOUT REPARATIONS THAN MILES DAVIS WOULD SERIOUSLY CARRY ON A DISCUSSION WITH YOU ABOUT BEBOP JAZZ.

BUT I *DO* ENJOY SHOWING YOU FOR THE MASSA-SUCKIN' FFFOOOLLL THAT YOU ARE!!

Uber-Fool: "my well worded ones to your racial ones."

JA: Even my white housemate can't believe you are black! She thinks that you sound, your 'insults' (is *that* what you call them?) like just what you claim: A LITTLE WHITE NERDO!! They could kick your ass "playin' the dozens". I bet that so could every white on this thread too. YOU SEE?: I PREDICTED!--PEGGED YOU RIGHT ON--IN ADVANCE!--AS SOME BLACK ANGLO-SAXON OREO WHO WOULD EVEN *HATE* RAP MUSIC!

Uber-Fool: "I've allowed your hatred of opposition..."

JA: --No, my hatred of FFFOOOLLLS!

You see above that when someone with even any half sense comes with even any half respect, I answer their questions--even when I've been a little off-guard.

Uber-Fool: "If you want to act like a snot-nosed punk kid..."

JA: --Yeah, this is coming from someone -- a supposed "Black" man -- who calls himself an "UBER-NERDO"!! NOW, WHO ARE YOU MORE LIKELY TO LOOK LIKE?: WESLEY SNIPES--OR IRKLE!!! HAHAHA!!!

UHN: "By the way...."Black" is only a mental construct as much as "White" is."

JA: First of all, you are wrong--but what else is new. Black is also a *LEGAL* construct. But your mind is psychologically mentally constructed *WHITE*.

I TOLLLD you that you can't go head to head with me. Look above how many times I've kicked your whitening-creamed ass. You can't talk about MLK and reparations, you can't talk about law, you can't talk about music, you *can't* even talk about spelling!

UHN: "You'll never understand that we are all part of the HUMAN race."

JA: And you can't talk about "race" either: there is NO SUCH THING as "the human race". Human beings are not speciated. And there is no such biological thing as "race". "Race" is a completely bogus and meaningless biological concept. Why don't you look up above and count up the number of times I've proven you even factually, let alone conceptually or philosophically wrong.

UHN: "If you can't debate on the issue itself..."

JA: You can't debate on sheee-it!: Which is why all I do regarding you is to show you up for THE PROUD IGNORAMUS BOOT-LICKIN' MASSA-SUCKIN' ***FFFOOOLLL* THAT YOU ARE!!

"Pawn to E3"

JA: “Blacks can't be racist”

rac•ism (rasizim)
n.
1.The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.

2.Discrimination or prejudice based on race.
Therefore, by definition of the word, you are a racist.

***That’s one point you are proven flat out wrong on.***

JA: FUNNY--YOU CAN'T FIND WHERE I SUPPOSEDLY *DIDN'T* SPELL IT CORRECTLY!
You spelled it wrong here…

JA Wednesday February 12, 2003 at 11:35 AM

So much for the flames….

One of the other times was in the rant that got deleted…hey bud, you reference it, so can I.

BTW…when are going to start calling me something other than “Stupid Head?”

***That’s two points you are proven flat out wrong on.***

Musical taste and beliefs of what the “artist” is trying to say is completely objective.

***With that one I’ll at least concede a tie***

JA: First of all, you are wrong--but what else is new. Black is also a *LEGAL* construct. But your mind is psychologically mentally constructed *WHITE*.

In case you haven’t figured it out yet, laws are words. Therefore, the concept of “Black” is purely a mental construct as much as “White” is. Division into groups, when we are all humans, is purely a mental thing. Language, Laws, and division based on groups is purely mental association. The mind controls the beliefs of society.

***That’s three points you are proven flat out wrong on.***

JA: And you can't talk about "race" either: there is NO SUCH THING as "the human race".

human race (Hyoo men ras)

n : all of the inhabitants of the earth; [syn: world, humanity, humankind, human beings, humans, mankind, man]


The Human Race…I.E. The human Species…Homo Sapiens…Most abundant of the primates…People…does that click with you, retard?

***That’s four points you are proven flat out wrong on.***

I can sit here all day and show over and over again how you fail miserably when faced with the facts. To with direct quotes that you can find in any dictionary.

You are sad.

You are pathetic.

You are nothing….and you never will be anything else.

"Checkmate. You lose."

JA: FUNNY--YOU CAN'T FIND WHERE I SUPPOSEDLY SPELLED IT INCORRECTLY AS YOU SAID!

UBER-FOOL: "You spelled it wrong here… ...***That’s two points you are proven flat out wrong on.*** "

UBER-FOOL CITATION: "JA Wednesday February 12, 2003 at 11:35 AM"

JA: BIG SHIT!: *ONE* SMALL TYPO -- AND *ONE* EXCEPTION. YEAH, THAT SURE MAKES ME "FLAT OUT WRONG" ALL RIGHT! GERMANS MAKE TYPOS TOO YOU KNOW. (An accidentally reversed p and f.) YOU CAN PROBABLY FIND TYPOS ELSEWHERE TOO AND IN ANY NUMBER OF OTHER PEOPLE'S POSTS. ARE YOU THAT PETTY AND THAT DESPERATE. GEE, THAT *REALLY* MAKES YOU LOOK 'GOOD'.

UBER-FOOL: "So much for the flames…. "

JA: SO MUCH FOR A **PETTY** FOOL AT THAT!!

UBER-FOOL: "OF [--NOW LOOK WHO CAN'T SPELL]…AND FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO’VE ACTUALLY READ THIS FAR, JA HAS **CONSISTENTLY** BEEN CALLING ME DUMMKO**FF**. WELL, SPORT, IT’S DUMMKOPF"

JA: NOT THAT I (OR ANYONE ELSE) GIVE(S) A SHIT ANYMORE. WHERE DID I SPELL IT *AS YOU CLAIMED!?*--DUMMKO*FF*!

UBER-FOOL: One of the other times was in the rant that got deleted…

JA: HOW *CON-VEEEE-NIENT*!!

UBER-FFFOOOLLL DOWN IN FLAMES AGAIN!!!

(HOW MANY LUMPS DO YOU WANT ME TO RAISE ON YO HED!???)

UBER-FOOL: "Musical taste and beliefs of what the “artist” is trying to say is *[ARE]* completely objective." [GEE, YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW WHEN YOU'RE *TALKING* EBONICS!]

JA: WHATEVER THE HELL YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

UBER-FOOL: "***With that one I’ll at least concede a tie***"

JA: YOU *WISH*!

UBER-FOOL: "In case you haven’t figured it out yet, laws are words. Therefore, the concept of “Black” is purely a mental construct... ***That’s three points you are proven flat out wrong on.*** "

JA: I'VE STOPPED BOTHERING TO REALLY FOLLOW YOU, BUT WHY NOT JUST SAY THAT *REALITY* ITSELF -- AND ALL HUMAN PERCEPTION ITSELF -- ALL SCIENCE ITSELF -- INDEED ALL HUMAN THOUGHT -- IS A "MENTAL CONSTRUCT" TOO? SO ARE ATOMS! AND ELECTRICITY TOO! THAT HAS ABOUT AS MUCH MEANING AS WHATEVER YOU ARE DRIVELING ON ABOUT TO COVER YOUR ASS. BUT SOME 'CONSTRUCTS' HAVE MORE MEANING AND, TECHNICALLY/ANALYTICALLY SPEAKING, LOGICAL VALIDITY THAN OTHERS.

UBER-FOOL: "The Human Race…I.E. The human Species…Homo Sapiens…Most abundant of the primates…People…does that click with you, retard?

***That’s four points you are proven flat out wrong on.***"

JA: (DO CATS CONSTITUTE "A RACE" UNTO THEMSELVES? THE CAT RACE? DO CHIMPS CONSTITUE "A RACE" UNTO THEMSELVES? THE CHIMP RACE?) LET'S SEE IF THIS "CLICKS" WITH YOU: THERE IS NO SUCH SCIENTIFIC/BIOLOGICAL THING AS "RACE". NOW, IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE THAT, THEN GO TO YOUR NEAREST UNIVERSITY BIOLOGY OR GENETICS OR ANTHROPOLOGY DEPARTMENT AND ASK. (YOU *DO* HAVE A UNIVERSITY WHERE YOU CLAIM TO BE, DON'T YOU?)

UBER-FOOL: "I can sit here all day and show over and over again how you fail miserably when faced with the facts."

JA: YOU'RE JUST SHOWING *EVERYONE* -- EVEN THOSE OPPOSED TO REPARATIONS -- WHAT A *FFFOOOLLL* YOU ARE: *AT LEAST* FOUR TIMES OVER!!

UBER-FOOL: "Checkmate. You lose."

JA: AN UBER-FOOL CHECKMATES HIMSELF!

Re the dictionary definition of racism.

Uber-Fool: "That’s one point you are proven flat out wrong on."

JA:

Fortunately I have written on this before, so I can just paste in most of my response. I realize it is lengthy. All others, read as much or as little of it as time permits or as you want. I especially wrote all of this for matthew--my cool white brotha. I have put in enough time on this Uber-Fool. I wouldn't have put this much time in on this, due to that FOOL, except that I can just pull it from my computer files. I believe that there is enough information here for everyone to digest. Unfortunately, I do not have enough time to go back-and-forth on this with others later on, no matter how sincere, and especially no matter how racist, or no matter how twisted (taking elements of truth and ignorance), like someone purporting to be Native American [he's no Ward Churchill], as Uber-Fool purports to be "Black".

RACISM is a system of POWER. Since Blacks don't hold power in the U.S., they cannot be racist. But, you--Uber-Fool--wouldn't understand what every Black intellectual since FREDERICK DOUGLASS, W.E.B. DUBOIS, A. PHILLIP RANDOLPH, MALCOLM X, JAMES BALDWIN, AND MARTIN LUTHER KING, ETC., have understood, but what YOU UBER-FOOL are intellectually INCAPABLE of fathoming.

I don't get my intellectual political discourse and terminology definitions on complicated subjects from the dictionary--especially one written by whites—a definition of racism that will never call their nation and system into fundamental question—but rather from intellectual, scientific, historical, economic and technical analysis. The dictionary also says:

RACE -- a family, tribe, people or nation belonging to the same stock; a class or kind of people unified by community of interests, habits, or characteristics <the Enlgish race> [NOW WHO USES RACE LIKE THIS ANYMORE!?]; a division of mankind possessing traits that are transmissible by descent and sufficient to characterize it as a distinct human type [THIS DEFINITION HAS BEEN SCIENTIFICALLY DISCREDITED]; etc.

BUT!: THERE ARE **NO** "DISTINCT HUMAN TYPES" AND SCIENTIFICALLY *NO SUCH THIING* AS "RACE" EXISTS--AND THE WHITE MAN'S DICTIONARY DOES NOT EVEN SAY—OR EVEN SUGGEST—THAT!

RACE - IS THE SPECIOUS, PSEUDO-SCIENTIFIC, ARBITRARY, POLITICALLY CONSTRUCTED CONCEPT OF "RACE"-DIVISIONS INTO WHICH CLASSES OF PEOPLE ARE DIVIDED TO IMPOSE A SYSTEM OF SOCIOECONOMIC ORGANIZATION CALLED RACISM.

RACE - A POLITICO-ECONOMIC SYSTEM OF POWER AND SOCIAL ORGANIZATION WHEREBY ONE GROUP OF PEOPLE DOMINATES/SUBJUGATES ANOTHER GROUP BASED ON THE ARBITRARY CONTRIVANCE, PRETEXT, SPURIOUS AND *FALSE* PSEUDO-SCIENTIFIC CONCEPT AND THEORIES OF RACES.

RACE - IS USED AS AN IDEOLOGICAL, POLITICAL DETERMINANT OF THE HIERARCHICAL ACCESS, APPORTIONMENT AND DISTRIBUTION OF THE WEALTH AND RESOURCES OF A NATION, INCLUDING CONTROLLING ACCESS TO SOCIAL AND ECONOMIC INSTITUTIONS.

RACISM - A SYSTEM OF ECONOMIC ORGANIZATION BASED ON THE CONSTRUCTION OF RACES. IN THIS SYSTEM A SMALL PART OF THE POPULATION (LET US CALL IT THE RULING CLASS) RETAINS SUCH A LARGE PART OF THE NATIONAL WEALTH (OR DISPORPORTIONATE PART/PRIVILEGES FOR THE ELITE POLITICAL CLASS) UNTO THEMSELVES THAT THERE IS NOT ENOUGH LEFT TO EQUITABLY DIVIDE AND DISTRIBUTE AND, THEREFORE, KEEP THE MAJORITY OF THE CITIZENRY - REGARDLESS OF COLOR - WHITE, BLACK, ETC. - IN A STATE OF AQUIESCENCE, THEREFORE AVOIDING CIVIL UNREST OR EVENTUAL OPEN REVOLT. THE PLUTOCRACY CONSTRUCTS A SOCIETY FALSELY BASED ON 'THE SCARCITY MODEL' AND AT LEAST OFFERS POOR WHITES "THE WAGES OF WHITENESS" (based on a book by the same title). RACISM IS A SYTEM OF POWER WHERBY THE FEW -- THE RULING CLASS -- EXPLOIT THE MANY.

If a very small percentage or minority of elites, the near rich, and the very affluent, owns and controls most of the wealth of the nation, then that means that there will not be enough national wealth left over to go around for everyone else--to satisfy the general needs and reasonable desires (quality of life requirements) of most of the people.

In order for this situation to not incite mass civil disruptions and political rebellion, a scheme of classes and extended classes must be created to hierarchically satisfy those who must be satisfied most--generally white men (especially those in the managerial class)--to those who can be satisfied least--generally minority women of color. (But patriarchy is also part of this system. So, it's also like fallaciously, generally/categorically saying that "women can be sexist too.")

IN SOCIETIES THAT HAVE NO USE FOR SUCH SOCIOECONOMIC ORGANIZATION, THERE IS NO CONCEPT OF "RACES" -- EVEN DESPITE VARIATIONS IN, GENETICALLY AND OTHERWISE, SUPERFICIAL PHYSICAL ASPECTS LIKE SKIN COLOR. IN AMERICAN SOCIETY RACISM (AND SEXISM) WILL DISAPPEAR (EXCEPT AS AN HISTORICAL REFERENCE) WHEN THERE IS NO LONGER ANYTHING TO BE ECONOMICALLY GAINED FROM ITS PRACTICE OR IF THE POWER RELATIONSHIPS -- REORGANIZATION -- IN THE POLITICAL STRUCTURE NO LONGER MAKE RACISM (OR SEXISM) SOCIALLY APPLICABLE.

THEREFORE, RACE IS NOT FUNDAMENTALLY MERELY A MATTER OF SOMEONE'S PERSONAL SENTIMENT. MERE PERSONAL SENTIMENT IS *PREJUDICE*!

RACISM - (IN THE U.S.) IS THE OLD EUROPEAN ROYALIST SYSTEM PUT ON THE BASIS OF RACE.

RACISM WAS AND IS FOUNDED AS AN INTEGRAL PART OF THE CLASS STRUCTURE IN AMERICA -- AND THAT WAS WHAT SLAVERY WAS FOUNDED UPON. THE SYSTEM OF SLAVERY -- THE CENTURIES OF FREE LABOR (THEN LATER, NEARLY FREE LABOR) FROM GENERATIONS UPON GENERATIONS OF MILLIONS OF BLACK PEOPLE THAT THIS COUNTRY'S WEALTH WAS BUILT UPON, FORMALLY ENDING ONLY ABOUT 35 YEARS AGO -- WAS FORMALLY STRUCTURED AS A CLASS AND ONE OF ITS PRINCIPLES WAS THAT OF RACE AS THE CHARACTERISTIC THAT DISTINGUISHED WHITES AND BLACKS. THIS DISTINCTION WAS DELIBERATELY INTRODUCED TO MAKE THE SYSTEM MORE FUNCTIONABLE OR OPERABLE.

IN SHORT - RACES ARE POLITICALLY AND LEGALLY CONSTRUCTED TO DETERMINE WHO GETS WHAT! -- NOT FOR PEOPLE'S SENTIMENTAL FEELINGS ABOUT EACH OTHER. SINCE BLACKS IN THE U.S. DO NOT INSTITUTIONALLY DETERMINE WHO GETS WHAT IN OUR ECONOMIC SYSTEM, THEY CAN NOT BE RACIST.

PREJUDICE -- WHICH IS THE EPIPHENOMENON OF RACISM, IS UNFOUNDED RACIAL OR ETHNIC STEREOTYPING. BLACKS CAN BE PREJUDICED (BUT NOT RACIST, SINCE THEY DO NOT HOLD OR EXCERCISE STATE POLITICAL POWER); THE EXPRESSION OF UNFOUNDED STEREOTYPICAL ASSUMPTIONS OF OTHER -- ESPECIALLY ETHNIC -- GROUPS OF PEOPLE. PREJUDICE WITHOUT POWER IS MOOT.

PREJUDICE AND RACISM ARE NOT THE SAME BECAUSE THEY DO HAVE HAVE THE SAME EFFECT. THERE IS NO BLACK PERSON IN THE U.S. THAT ULITMATELY CONTROLS THE ECONOMIC LIVELIHOOD OF ANY WHITE PERSON IN THIS COUNTRY.


BUT SINCE BLACKS HAVE HAD TO LIVE UNDER A BRUTAL RACIST SYSTEM, I CONTEND THAT WE DON'T REALLY EVEN KNOW IF BLACKS CAN BE PREJUDICED BECAUSE IT IS CURRENTLY TOO DIFFICULT TO SEPARATE OUT SOCIOPOLITICAL *RESENTMENT* AT BEING *BRUTALLY* OPPRESSED FROM MERE PREJUDICE, WERE THAT OPPRESSION NOT TO EXIST IN THE FIRST PLACE.

CLAIMING THAT "BLACKS CAN BE RACIST TOO" IS AN ATTEMPT TO EVADE, FALSELY SYMETRICIZE, EQUIVOCATE AND DISPLACE THE **SOURCE** AND PROBLEM -- THAT GOES TO THE VERY HEART, STRUCTURE AND FUNDAMENTAL BASIS OF THE AMERICAN SYSTEM -- OF SOCIAL INEQUITIES AND SOCIAL INJUSTICE. MOST WHITES DON’T WANT TO DEAL WITH THIS ISSUE BECAUSE IT GOES TO THE FUNDAMENTAL STRUCTURE OF THEIR AMERICAN SOCIETY: RACIST CAPITALISM.

MOST —AND THEIR NEEEGRO LACKEYES AND SYCOPHANTS LIKE UBER-FOOL—WHO DO NOT WANT AN OPEN, PUBLIC EXAMINATION OF RACE AS A STRUCTURAL MATTER -- AND STRUCTURAL TO THE ECONOMIC FOUNDATION AND MAINTENANCE OF THIS COUNTRY -- PREFER TO DISCUSS RACE AS A MATTER OF INDIVIDUAL SENTIMENT, BECAUSE SUCH WHITES SECRETLY DO LIKE BENEFITING FROM THOSE VERY STRUCTURAL INEQUITIES -- WHICH IS ALSO WHY THEY OPPOSE SUCH THINGS AS REPARATIONS OR EVEN AFFIRMATIVE ACTION.

Racism, sexism, and classism, creates and maintains a system of minority rule over the majority of the population. This is why a few minorities in high places don’t really change the balance and system of racial inequality.

If you can’t fundamentally understand and define the problem, then you can’t fundamen-tally solve it. All other ‘solutions’ will be super-ficial (like encounter sessions and token programs). (Or as rapper Ice T says in “New Jack Hustler,” “The wound is deep, but you’re [whites] giving us a band-aid.”)

Racism is a system of power that controls the economic destiny, livelihoods, and even pubic/media images of Blacks, individual-ly and, especially, as a group/class. Thus, whites *as a group* benefit from institutional and systemic discrimination over Blacks and other minorities *as a group*. (That’s why it doesn’t change anything for a few Blacks to ‘make it’ in white society/institutions. As one rap group put it, “Just ‘cause a few niggas made it, don’t mean we all liberated!”)

The REAL definition of racism analytically and fundamentally delineates racism as the political, economic, institutional and structural basis of society—not just a personal, individual and emotional sentiment. Racism was and is an integral part of the class structure in America—and therefore racism was and is an integral part of the economic organization and structure of the United States--from its very beginning. Racism has been an integral part of the American economy.

The real, operational, definition of racism goes to and identifies the very root and structure, and fundamentally calls into question and notes the very system itself of social organization and social institutions whereby one group of people subjugates the economic self-determination of another group. This would call into question the fundamental structure of American society.


[As for the discussion of poor, blue-collar, or middle-class whites who don't believe they are privileged by whiteness too, and thus don't think that they owe anybody else anything, it was DuBois who pointed out that they at least enjoy the "psychological wages" of being "white." (And eventually attaining the political status of being "white," as the Irish, Italians, and Jews eventually became in the U.S.) They certainly didn't get whatever they had just through "hard work."

White-American author and historian David Roediger (University of Missouri) has written about this issue in his book "The Wages of Whiteness." But one function of privilege is to hide the full extent of its unfair and *un*meritocratic advantages from its recipients. Even working-class whites were happy to benefit from racist employers, racist job reservation, and racist unions, racist city politics, as well as racist real estate practices.]

As noted white art historian Michael Wood put it, whites in the West even have a resistance to seeing themselves the way others see them.

*All whites* are to some degree continuing beneficiaries of a racist system they created, reinforced, or enjoy, and thus retain an UNFAIR inherited (i.e., nonmeritocratic) group advantage, whether they, individually, are racist or not. For whites to admit this would make it impossible for any of them to evade this circumstance by claiming that, "My family never owned slaves!," or "I'm not racist!" Individualized redress (one white person making friends with one Black person) can never eradicate the problem of racism; only group remedy and addressing the racial power inequities can redress racism. Unless whites are willing to do work to change the fundamental and very structure of the social organization that unfairly and unmeritocratically privileges them, unless they are willing to work together to change all the systems and institutions that established, drives, and maintains their unfair privilege, then they are not seriously working to end racism as a system of power. A lot of whites who claim to be against racism, don’t want to deal with this.

For white conservatives and even many white liberals, the idea that Blacks might want to be, and should be, equal *as a group* to whites *as a group* is completely alien to them, especially given the white-American emphasis on "the individual" as the ideal/ideology. Since white-Americans culturally tend to think of themselves as *individuals*, many whites tend to think of only *individual* responsibility. Thus, many whites think that the answer to racism is for each white person, on an individual basis, to find a Black friend.

Racism is power that controls the economic destiny, livelihoods, and even pubic/media images of Blacks individually and, especially, as a group/class. Thus, whites *as a group* benefit from institutional and systemic discrimination over Blacks and other minorities *as a group*. (That’s why it doesn’t change any-thing for a few Blacks to ‘make it’ in white society /institutions As one rap group put it, “Just ‘cause one nigga made it, don’t mean we all liberated!”) Blacks don’t determine white media images of Blacks and access by Blacks; don’t determine white access to decent jobs, to decent and higher education, decent housing, municipal services, political institutions, financial access, etc. Blacks don’t determine who, racially, goes to prison. I don’t know of one Black individual who can ultimately determine the economic livelihood of one single white person. So, it’s really intellectual nonsense to say that, “Blacks can be racist too!”

I put my email in a comment on this thread for you, since yours is full, and it pertains to this topic anyway.

http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/01/1561260_comment.php#1576258

"PREJUDICE AND RACISM ARE NOT THE SAME BECAUSE THEY DO HAVE HAVE THE SAME EFFECT"

...should have read, of course,...

PREJUDICE AND RACISM ARE *NOT* THE SAME BECAUSE THEY DO NOT HAVE THE SAME EFFECT.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

"RACE - A POLITICO-ECONOMIC SYSTEM OF POWER AND SOCIAL ORGANIZATION WHEREBY ONE GROUP OF PEOPLE DOMINATES/SUBJUGATES ANOTHER GROUP BASED ON THE ARBITRARY CONTRIVANCE, PRETEXT, SPURIOUS AND *FALSE* PSEUDO-SCIENTIFIC CONCEPT AND THEORIES OF RACES."

...should have read...

RACISM - A POLITICO-ECONOMIC SYSTEM OF POWER AND SOCIAL ORGANIZATION WHEREBY ONE GROUP OF PEOPLE DOMINATES/SUBJUGATES ANOTHER GROUP BASED ON THE ARBITRARY CONTRIVANCE, PRETEXT, SPURIOUS AND *FALSE* PSEUDO-SCIENTIFIC CONCEPT AND THEORIES OF RACES.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The small type, especially in a lengthy text is sometimes hard to see clearly in the little indymedia text box for posting, when one is trying to catch ones own typos and errors as one types along.

who are you talking to ? Surely no one is reading your bullshit! Go back to http://www.palestine.indymedia.org -- you'll fit in there even better than you did before.

FOLLOW THIS THREAD FOR MORE INFO ON THE TOPIC AT HAND
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/02/1576275.php

Why has this thread been suspiciously absent from the `latest comment` Archive?

Reparations Now!!
by Sumi. Wednesday February 19, 2003 at 03:48 PM


Read On:

SUEDDEUTSCHE ZEITUNG (11 August 2000)


Will THE HOLOCAUST INDUSTRY Incite Anti-Semitism?

By Norman G. Finkelstein


The main thesis of my new book is that The Holocaust has effectively become an industry. Jewish elites, acting in concert with the US government, exploit the horrific suffering of the millions of Jews exterminated during World War II and the few who managed to survive for power and profit. In its ruthless exploitation of Jewish suffering, the Holocaust industry has arguably become a fomenter of anti-Semitism and a purveyor of Holocaust denial.

The book is divided into three chapters. In the first chapter I explore the genesis of the Holocaust industry. During the postwar years American Jewish leaders, eager to please the US government as it aligned with a barely de-Nazified West Germany, banished The Holocaust from public discourse. After the June 1967 Middle East war, Israel became a key ally of the US. American Jewish elites, hitherto wary of Israel (they feared the bogey of "dual loyalty"), fervently embraced the Jewish state. For Jews now stood on the front lines defending American interests against the retrograde Third World/Arab hordes. Supporting Israel accordingly facilitated Jewish assimilation in the US. Posing as the natural interlocutors between the US government and its "strategic asset" in the Middle East, Jewish elites could also enter the inner sanctums of American power. To deflect criticism, American Jewish elites "remembered" the Nazi holocaust which, ideologically recast, proved a potent weapon.

In chapter 2, I critically scrutinize the central dogmas of Holocaust ideology: (1) The Holocaust marks a categorically unique event, and (2) The Holocaust marks the climax of an irrational, eternal Gentile hatred of Jews. The main proponent of the "uniqueness" doctrine is Elie Wiesel. For Wiesel, The Holocaust "leads into darkness," "negates all answers," "defies both knowledge and description," and so forth. Such formulations obscure more than they illuminate. The "uniqueness" doctrine, although intellectually
stifling and morally discreditable (the suffering of non-Jewish victims "cannot compare"), persists on account of its political utility. Unique suffering confers unique entitlement.

According to the complementary Holocaust dogma of "eternal Gentile hatred," Jews were exterminated during World War II because all Gentiles, be it as active perpetrators or as passive collaborators, wanted them dead. Daniel Jonah Goldhagen's ponderous effort to prove one variant of this dogma in Hitler's Willing Executioners lacked scholarly value. But like the "uniqueness" doctrine, it has proven to be politically useful. To account for criticism of Israel, American writer Cynthia Ozick had a ready answer: "The world wants to wipe out the Jews...the world has always wanted to wipe out the Jews." Indeed this dogma confers total license: intent as the Gentiles always are on murdering Jews, Jews have every right to protect themselves, however they see fit. Deploring the "Holocaust lesson" of eternal Gentile hatred, respected Israeli scholar Boas Evron observes that it is "really tantamount to a deliberate breeding of paranoia....This mentality...condones in advance any inhuman treatment of non-Jews, for the prevailing mythology is that 'all people collaborated with the Nazis in the destruction of Jewry,' hence everything is permissible to Jews in their relationship to other peoples."

Holocaust dogma exerts a pernicious influence on scholarship. Consider for example Guenter Lewy's The Nazi Persecution of the Gypsies. Published this past year by Oxford University Press and praised by Holocaust historian Saul Friedlander for its "great compassion," the central thesis of this study is that Gypsies didn't suffer like the Jews - indeed, didn't even suffer a genocide - during World War II. Lewy's argument goes like this: Gypsies were ruthlessly slaughtered by the Einsatzgruppen like the Jews, but only because they were suspected of spying; Gypsies were deported to Auschwitz like the Jews, but only "to get rid of them, not to kill them;" Gypsies were gassed at Chelmno like the Jews, but only because they had contracted typhus; most of the few remaining Gypsies were sterilized like the Jews, not however to prevent their propagation but only to "prevent contamination of 'German blood.'" It's not hard to imagine the public and scholarly reaction if one replaced Gypsies with Jews in Lewy's book.

In my last chapter I explore the material compensation issue. I contend that the Holocaust industry is guilty of a "double shakedown": it misappropriates monies from European governments as well as from the actual survivors of Nazi persecution. Even the official history of the Jewish Claims Conference acknowledges that the Conference made improper use of the monies originally earmarked by the German government for Holocaust victims. During the recent slave-labor negotiations, the Claims Conference put forth wildly inflated figures for still living former Jewish slave-laborers. In doing so, the Conference forces a radical revision of our understanding of the Nazi holocaust: increasing the number of survivors means decreasing the number of victims. Indeed, the numbers used by the Claims Conference place it uncomfortably close to the arguments of Holocaust revisionists. "If everyone who claims to be a survivor actually is one," my mother (a concentration camp survivor) used to exclaim, "who did Hitler kill?"

Nearly all the charges the Holocaust industry leveled against the Swiss banks were either false or grossly hypocritical. The definitive Volcker Committee report found that the Swiss banks did not systematically deny Holocaust victims or their heirs access to accounts after the war and did not systematically destroy bank records to cover their tracks. My book's most important finding was that, alongside Switzerland, the United States was also a primary safe haven for transferrable Jewish assets before and during World War II. The obvious question is, What happened to the dormant Holocaust-era accounts in American banks? During the Congressional hearings on the Swiss banks, one expert witness - Seymour Rubin of American University - was called to testify on this matter. Rubin concluded that the record of the American banks was worse than the record of the Swiss banks: "The United States took only very limited measures to identify heirless assets in the United States, and made available...a mere $500,000, in contrast to the $32,000,000 acknowledged by Swiss banks even prior to the Volcker inquiry." The New York Times devoted a full page of its book review to a savage ad hominem assault on me; it made no mention of this remarkable - and damning - revelation. The Holocaust industry demanded a final settlement with the Swiss bankers before the Volcker committee completed its work because "needy Holocaust victims are dying every day." Yet once the Swiss agreed to a $1.25 billion settlement in August 1998, the urgency suddenly vanished. Two years have elapsed but not a single cent of the Swiss monies has been distributed to the actual claimants.

The Holocaust industry has diminished the moral stature of the Jewish people's martyrdom. For this reason alone it deserves public censure. Many well-meaning Germans worry that my book may incite anti-Semitism. I respect and fully share this concern. To deny the danger would be disingenuous. Yet, moral action is never unalloyed: there are always unintended or undesired repercussions. To decide whether to proceed one must exercise judgment - hopefully good judgment but at least judgment in good faith. It is primarily the ruthless and reckless tactics of the Holocaust industry that foment anti-Semitism. During the slave-labor negotiations, I met privately with a member of the German delegation holding unimpeachable moral credentials. For several hours he defended the Claims Conference as vehemently as I denounced it. Just before leaving, however, he turned to me and said: "I'll be honest with you. On our side, we all feel like we're being blackmailed." I suspect that privately many decent Germans agree -
regrettably, with good reason. One can also assume that many decent Swiss privately echo these sentiments. And it is not difficult to guess what East Europeans think as the Holocaust industry, falsely claiming as its own the property of murdered Jews, presses for an acceleration in the pace of property evictions. Incidentally, while American Jewish organizations have called for a worldwide boycott of the new Austrian government, Stuart Eizenstat, US Deputy Secretary of the Treasury and the Holocaust industry's chief diplomat, entered restitution negotiations with this same Austrian government and then acclaimed it for having "shown leadership and not just in Austria but leadership to the rest of Europe and to the world about how one can reconcile with one's past, and how one can heal wounds even many decades later." The purpose of my book is to facilitate a long overdue open debate. Kept under wraps in deference to "political correctness," the discontent will only fester. To avert a resurgence of anti-Semitism, the Holocaust profiteers must be publicly exposed and repudiated.

Finally, I emphatically believe that the Nazi holocaust should be studied. Yet one cannot learn anything substantive until and unless the Holocaust industry is shut down. Meaningful historical inquiry practically requires that comparisons be made. And what significant moral lesson can possibly be drawn from a dogma that reduces the Nazi holocaust to a Manichaean struggle between Gentiles and Jews? Holocaust dogmatism preempts understanding the crucial individual and historical dimensions of Nazism. In The Holocaust Industry I attempt to represent my parents' legacy. The main lesson they imparted is that we should always compare. To make out moral distinctions between "our" suffering and "theirs" is itself a moral travesty. "Do not compare" is the mantra of moral blackmailers.



add your comments



To avert a resurgence of anti-Semitism, the Holocaust profiteers must be publicly exposed
by as well as repudiated.. Wednesday February 19, 2003 at 03:54 PM



To avert a resurgence of anti-Semitism, the Holocaust profiteers must be publicly exposed and repudiated.
"The United States took only very limited measures to identify heirless assets in the United States, and made available...a mere $500,000, in contrast to the $32,000,000 acknowledged by Swiss banks even prior to the Volcker inquiry." The New York Times devoted a full page of its book review to a savage ad hominem assault on me; it made no mention of this remarkable - and damning - revelation. The Holocaust industry demanded a final settlement with the Swiss bankers before the Volcker committee completed its work because "needy Holocaust victims are dying every day." Yet once the Swiss agreed to a $1.25 billion settlement in August 1998, the urgency suddenly vanished. Two years have elapsed but not a single cent of the Swiss monies has been distributed to the actual claimants.


http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/id27.htm

add your comments



Once Again
by As WeLL: Wednesday February 19, 2003 at 04:03 PM



To avert a resurgence of anti-Semitism, the Holocaust profiteers must be publicly exposed and repudiated.

**************************

JA: “Blacks can't be racist”

(THIS IS WEBSTER’S DICTIONARY’S DEFINITION)

rac•ism (rasizim)
n.
1.The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.

2.Discrimination or prejudice based on race.
Therefore, by definition of the word, you are a racist.
If you don’t like the word, use another one. But, by definition, you are a racist. Get over it, you lose.

**************************

JA: And you can't talk about "race" either: there is NO SUCH THING as "the human race".

(THIS IS WEBSTER’S DICTIONARY’S DEFINITION)

human race (Hyoo men ras)
n : all of the inhabitants of the earth; [syn: world, humanity, humankind, human beings, humans, mankind, man]

You said there is no such thing as race. By definition, the “Human Race” is ALL OF HUMANITY.
You lose again.

**************************

JA: FUNNY--YOU CAN'T FIND WHERE I SUPPOSEDLY *DIDN'T* SPELL IT CORRECTLY! YOU **WOULD** HAVE POSTED IT IF YOU *DID* FIND IT?
Y
ou dared me to find one miss-spelled. I did. You lose a third time.

**************************

JA: First of all, you are wrong--but what else is new. Black is also a *LEGAL* construct. But your mind is psychologically mentally constructed *WHITE*.

You are looking at a cultural aspect…and the fact that it stands as a legal construct is something you yourself push for. If listing one’s “Race” on applications, how could affirmative action work for colleges? How could one determine “black” on a piece of paper without listing it? How could reparations occur without listing someone as "Black?" Want things equal? Remove "Black" and "White" from ALL applications and documents.

And why is it that “blacks” in European countries WHO ARE NOT RECENT IMMIGRANTS fit in extraordinarily well and carry on in the same culture as the “Whites?”
Because your idea of “Blackness” is a mental, social, and cultural construct. It only exists in the mind of the individual.

You lose once more.

**************************

That’s four for four.

Proven by Webster twice, proven by you once, and proven by looking at the bigger picture at the end.

You can’t win on these four. You know I’m right and you just won’t admit it.

It just goes to show if I left you rant enough, eventually you’ll prove yourself wrong.

Give it up on these four. Argue another point. But you know as well as I, this particular battle is in my favor.

UBER-FOOL: "JA: “Blacks can't be racist”

(THIS IS WEBSTER’S DICTIONARY’S DEFINITION) ETC."

JA: WELL I GUESS THAT IF YOU'RE THAT SIMPLE, YOU MUST BE RIGHT THEN!

THE DICTIONARY ALSO DEFINED RACE AS "HUMAN STOCKS" -- SO I GUESS THERE ARE VARIOUS "HUMAN STOCKS" TOO,...

...AS WELL AS (WEBSTER) "PEOPLE UNIFIED BY COMMUNITY OF INTERESTS, HABITS, OR CHARACTERISTICS."

SO, I GUESS I'M ALSO A MEMBER OF THE "SKYDIVERS' RACE", THE "SCUBA RACE", THE "TALL, SLENDER RACE", THE "RAP RACE", THE "BERKELEY COFFEE SHOP LOVERS RACE", THE "WAKE UP EARLY RACE", AND THE "HATE UNCLE TOM HOUSE NIGGAS UBER-FOOLS RACE"!

YEP! YOU'RE RIGHT, AFTER ALL!


UBER-FOOL: "(THIS IS WEBSTER’S DICTIONARY’S DEFINITION)

human race (Hyoo men ras)
n : all of the inhabitants of the earth; [syn: world, humanity, humankind, human beings, humans, mankind, man]

You said there is no such thing as race. By definition, the “Human Race” is ALL OF HUMANITY.
You lose again. "

JA: WELL I GUESS YOU MUST BE RIGHT HERE TOO! I GUESS THERE *IS* A "HUMAN RACE" AND BIOLOGICALLY DIFFERENT "RACES" OF HUMANS TOO!

NOW YOU CAN GO TAKE YOUR *DICTIONARY* DISCOVERY TO A UNIVERSITY BIOLOGY/GENETICS/ANTRHOPOLOGY DEPARTMENT AND HAVE THEM LAUGH AT YOU TOO!


UBER-FOOL: "JA: FUNNY--YOU CAN'T FIND WHERE I SUPPOSEDLY *DIDN'T* SPELL IT CORRECTLY! YOU **WOULD** HAVE POSTED IT IF YOU *DID* FIND IT?
Y
ou dared me to find one miss-spelled. I did. You lose a third time. "

JA: WELL, GEE, THE ONLY MISSPELLING YOU FOUND WAS *ONE* TYPO (TWO REVERSED LETTERS, BECAUSE I TYPE SO FAST, SOMETIMES I INADVERTANTLY HIT ONE LETTER BEFORE THE OTHER)! NOT THE MISSPELLING, THE "FF", THAT YOU WERE FALSELY CROWING ABOUT. I GUESS YOU'RE RIGHT AGAIN! (HOW CHILDISH!)

LET'S SEE HOW MANY WHITES WHO ARE EVEN OPPOSED TO BOTH REPARATIONS AND AFFIRMATIVE ACTION JOIN YOU ON THIS PAGE TO CELEBRATE YOUR 'TRIUMPH'!

BY THE WAY -- ***DUMMKOPF!*** -- YOU *** "MISS-SPELLED" *** MISSPELLED!

(I GUESS YOU WEREN'T ONE OF THOSE UNCLE TOM NEEEGROES THAT MADE IT TO REMEDIAL SPELLING.)


" JA: First of all, you are wrong--but what else is new. Black is also a *LEGAL* construct. But your mind is psychologically mentally constructed *WHITE*.

[Uber-Fool:]You are looking at a cultural aspect…and the fact that it stands as a legal construct is something you yourself push for. "

JA: BY THE WAY -- **DUMMKOPF** -- "NEGRO/COLORED/BLACK WERE LEGALLY DEFINED IN THE U.S. LONG BEFORE I WAS BORN, BACK IN THE 1600'S, BY THE KIND OF WHITE RACISTS YOU LOVE TO SUCK!


UBER-FOOL: " And why is it that “blacks” in European countries WHO ARE NOT RECENT IMMIGRANTS fit in extraordinarily well and carry on in the same culture as the “Whites?” "

JA: OH YEAH, UBER-FOOL!: BLACKS IN COUNTRIES LIKE ENGLAND, FRANCE AND GERMANY (ACTUALLY MORESO THE TURKISH PEOPLE IN GERMANY) 'GET ALONG' JUSSST 'FINNNE'!
-THAT'S WHY ENGLAND WENT THROUGH ITS VERSION OF RODNEY KING, "THE STEVEN LAURENCE POLICE SCANDAL", A FEW YEARS AGO;
-THAT'S WHY WHITE BRITISH HOOLIGANS ARE ALWAYS TARGETING AND ATTACKING BLACKS ON THE STREETS;
-THAT'S WHY BLACK GRADE/HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS IN ENGLAND WERE SUSPENDED AT MUCH HIGHER RATES THAN WHITE STUDENTS, EVEN OF THE SAME CLASS BACKGROUND, AND FOR LESSER OFFENSES (A FRIEND OF MINE IS AN EDUCATION ADVISOR TO THE BRITISH GOVT);
-THAT'S WHY THERE ARE ALMOST NO BLACK TENURED PROFESSORS IN ENGLAND, IN SPITE OF THE FACT THAT QUITE A FEW ARE ACADEMICS (WITH DOCTORAL DEGREES);
-THAT'S WHY A BRITISH BLACK SOCIOLOGY PROFESSOR FRIEND OF MINE FOUND OUT THAT SHE WAS GETTING LESS PAY WITH A PH.D. AT A UNIVERSITY THAN A WHITE CO-WORKER WITH A MASTER'S DEGREE;
-THAT'S WHY A BLACK ACADEMIC FRIEND OF MINE WHO'S *FIRST* BOOK, OF MANY, WAS NOMINATED FOR A PULITZER PRIZE, BUT HE COULDN'T GET A JOB AT OXFORD.
-THAT'S WHY BLACKS IN FRANCE GET HASSLED AND TARGETED BY THE POLICE, UNLESS YOU ARE AMERICAN;
-THAT'S WHY BLACKS IN ENGLAND AND FRANCE ARE RACIALLY PROFILED THERE TOO.
-THAT'S WHY MANY WHITES IN ENGLAND EVEN SAY THAT THEY DON'T EVEN WANT ASIANS IN THEIR COUNTRY.

I GUESS THAT YOU'RE RIGHT HERE TOO!

YOUR UNCLE TOM HOUSE NIGGA MENTALITY AND EYES ARE JUST AS MENTALLY WHITE WHEN LOOKING OVERSEAS AS THEY ARE HERE IN THE U.S..

UBER-FOOL: "Give it up on these four. Argue another point. But you know as well as I, this particular battle is in my favor."

I GUESS THAT YOU'RE RIGHT HERE TOO! YOU WIN!

YOU'RE THE *EVER*-LOYAL UBER-FOOL HOUSE NIGGA THAT RACIST WHITES COULD TRULY LOVE -- BUT FUNNY: I DON'T EVEN SEE ANY OF THEM COMING TO SUPPORT YOU HERE -- AND HELPING YOU CROW -- ON ANY OF THESE POINTS.

(EVEN THEY MUST BE THINKING: "DAMNNN!... HE **IS** A FOOL!!! KINDA EMBARRASSED THAT HE'S ON *OUR* SIDE!")

If you want to debate the meaning of a word or change the meaning of a word, that's fine.

The facts stand that the clear cut, straight forward definition of a word is known and you get pissy when you find that it is applied to you.

You just can't get over the fact that an UBER-FOOL, house-nigga bested you at your own game.

As much as you bitch and moan, you're still wrong and you know it.

UBER-FOOL: " If you want to debate the meaning of a word or change the meaning of a word, that's fine. The facts stand that the clear cut, straight forward definition of a word is known "

JA: I *SSSAID* YOU WERE *'RRRIGHT'*!! NOW RUN YOUR L'IL DICTIONARY DISCOVERY OVER TO THE NEAREST UNIVERSITY BIOLOGY/GENETICS/ANTHROPOLOGY DEPT; THEY GOT YOUR NOBEL PRIZE WAITIN' FO' YA! (HAHAHAHA!) YOU DISCOVERED THAT THERE ARE "RACES" AFTER ALL -- AND THAT THE BIGGEST RACE IS "THE *HUMAN* RACE"!

(I still don't see anyone of your supporters coming to cheer you on about this in your moment of glory!)


UBER-FOOL: " You just can't get over the fact that an UBER-FOOL, house-nigga bested you "

JA: YEAH, YOU'RE SURE RIGHT ABOUT THAT!!: THE BIGGEST UBER-FOOL HOUSE NIGGA OF THEM ALL BESTED ME!!! OH, *YOU* WIN 'THE PRIZE', ALL RIGHT!! I'M GLAD YOU FINALLY ACCEPTED THAT!!!

NOW THAT YOU 'WON', OH UBER-FOOL -- OH YOU PILLAR OF THE BIRMINGHAM COMMUNITY -- NOW YOU CAN TELL US YOUR **NAME** SO YOU CAN BASK IN ALL YOUR GLORY FOR *ALL* TO SEE????? (HAHAHAHAHA...!)


UBER-FOOL: "As much as you bitch and moan, you're still wrong and you know it."

JA: HEY FOOL!! YOU WON'T TAKE "*YES*" FOR AN ANSWER!!! (HAHAHAHA!...*HA*HAHAHA!!...**HAHA**HAHA!!!..HM-HM-HM-HM...***HAHAHAHAHA...!!!!*** ROTFL!!! HM-HM-HM-HM-HM...)

I *CAN'T* THANK YOU ENOUGH FOR TRYING TO TAKE ME ON. IT'S BEEN TIME-CONSUMING, BUT THEN ISN'T *ANYTHING* THAT'S WORTHWHILE! (HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!)


(EVEN THE WHITE RACISTS MUST BE THINKING: "**DAMNNN**!... HE **IS** A FOOL!!! WE'RE ***REALLY*** EMBARRASSED THAT HE'S ON *OUR* SIDE!")

HEY UBER-NERDO, DON'T YOU HAVE A STAR TREK CONVENTION TO GO TO?? DON'T FORGET YOUR STYROFOAM EARS!!! HEY, WHAT WAS THE COMBINATION TO KIRK'S SAFE WHEN HE GOT HIS SECRET ORDERS IN "RETURN TO ANDROMEDA"? ...I WAS JUST WONDERIN'...I KNOW YOU'RE PRETTY OLD...: BTW, HAVE YOU EVER, UH, KISSED A GIRL?? HEHEHE--HAHAHA!!!)

My reposting of the facts were mainly due to your pathetic attempts to try to cover your blunder by saying "Well, techincally your right, but what about...." and then trying to dilute the meanings of words under mountains of double-talk.

People like you have to be almost literally beaten over the head with facts before you accept them....if you ever accept them....and without fail, you can't accept defeat graciously and must resort to insults and other slights to make youself feel better.

I...the "house nigga," the "squeeky-voiced nerd," won out. How does that feel? That in all your moral superiority, I bested you?

I might almost be happy about it, but I know that admitting you were wrong means nothing to you, because even knowing logically that you WERE wrong, you will still continue to promote that which IS wrong.

Throughout the argument, nothing of you has changed. Nothing of you has become better.

I pity you probably more now than I did before, sad and angry man that you are.

Well, it was a good fight. I have no desire to trade insults with you anymore, so I'll leave you to do that which you seem to enjoy...getting the last word in.

Have a nice life.

:Uber-Nerd

UBER-FOOL: My reposting of the facts were mainly due to your pathetic attempts to try to cover your blunder by saying "Well, techincally your right, but what about...."

IT'S NOT ENOUGH THAT I SSSAID(!) HE 'WON'!!! NOW THE FOOL HAS GOTTA GO FALSELY QUOTING ME - OUT OF *WHOLE* CLOTH!!!

LOOK FOOL!: YOU'VE BEEN A LOTTA FUN, REALLY(!!!), BUT I SAID YOU 'WON'!!! --AND YET, YOU STILL YAPPIN'!!! IS THERE SOMETHIN' ABOUT 'WINNING' THAT YOU DON'T LIKE!!!? HAHAHAHAHA...!!!

NOW GET YOUR LITTLE STYROFOAM EARS ON AND GET OUT TO THE NEXT STAR TREK CONVENTION!!! HAHAHAHAHA...!!!

*** NOW THAT YOU 'WON', OH UBER-FOOL -- OH YOU PILLAR OF THE BIRMINGHAM COMMUNITY -- NOW YOU CAN TELL US YOUR **NAME** SO YOU CAN BASK IN ALL YOUR GLORY FOR *ALL* TO SEE????? (HAHAHAHAHA...!) ***

OH, *YOU* WIN 'THE PRIZE', ALL RIGHT!! I'M GLAD YOU FINALLY ACCEPTED THAT!!!

WHAT YOU SCARED OF NOW!!!???

DON'T YOU WANT EVERYONE TO KNOW WHO "BESTED" ME???

OH, HERE'S A LITTLE EMAIL MESSAGE I GOT FROM ONE OF THE LITTLE RACIST WHITES IN THIS THREAD: "I'M **PLEADING** WITH YA MAN, STOP GOING BACK AND FORTH WITH THIS UBER-FOOL!!! HE'S ***EMBARRASSING*** US!!!"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA...!!!!!

Still ranting?

Sad. Expected, but sad.

..........

Ever since the amino acids hooked up, some RNA was formed, and prokaryotes eventually began reproducing on this planet, massive suffering has resulted. Wars, famines, slavery, Republicans, etc can all be blamed on these selfish creatures.

They are still causing trouble. I had a bacterial infection in my stomach a few months ago. It sucked. There must be trillions of trillions of trillions of bacteria living on this planet right now. If they all paid one cent to us humans, think of how rich we could be. No more working. No more nothing. Just kicking back on this site and ranting about stuff we don't understand.

What a wonderful world it could be.

DR. ELLA FORBES TESTIMONY AT UHURU MOVEMENT REPARATIONS TRIBUNAL HELD IN PHILADELPHIA, PA IN DECEMBER 2002

Dr. Ella Forbes is an Associate Professor in the Department of African-American Studies at Temple University. She is the author of "African-American Women During the Civil War," "But we Have No Country," "Christiana" and "The American Democracy in Africa in the Twenty-first Century." She is a very courageous woman whose son was brutally murdered by the police in Lower Merion just outside of Philadelphia in January of 2000. She has created an organization called Mothers Organized Against Police Terror.
_________

Thank you. I’m going to talk today about the failure of Reconstruction and why that failure mandates our need for reparations for African people. I am an historian so I’m going to give specifics, no theory, just the facts that show clearly that we need and are owed reparations.
Reconstruction failed because the public policies instituted during Reconstruction were flawed. At the end of the Civil War, the white South was not punished for seceding. Instead they were welcomed back into the union with open arms. The essential social, political and economic structure of the antebellum South was reestablished with whites on top, their boots firmly on the necks of African people.

Most whites, North and South, believed in the inherent inferiority of African people. They believed that we were not ready for, capable of, or deserving of basic civil rights.

Reconstruction did not guarantee lasting civil rights for the nearly four million Africans who were freed. It did not provide lasting and sustainable economic means for newly freed African people. Africans were thrust into a capitalist system without capital. In fact, we had been capital. Now we were homeless, penniless, landless and completely at the mercy of capitalists. This situation guaranteed inequality.

This provides the rationale for reparations. Today the failure of Reconstruction can be seen in black poverty, police pogroms of brutality and murder, the criminal injustice system, racial profiling and so on æ all the things that still impact Africans today.

The Civil War ended on April 9th, 1865 when Confederate General Robert E. Lee surrendered to Union General Ulysses S. Grant at Appomattox Courthouse in Virginia. The nation supposedly then began the business of reconstructing the union.
The U.S. Congress passed the Wade-Davis bill in 1864, which restricted the rights of ex-confederates to vote or hold office, banned slavery, and established temporary governors of the ex-rebel states to insure that the states obeyed the laws of Reconstruction. There was no mention of voting rights for African people. Lincoln vetoed the Wade-Davis bill. The Lincoln assassination on April 14th, 1865 ushered in a new reconstruction plan under the new president, Andrew Johnson.

As president, Johnson, a Southerner and a slave owner who had remained loyal to the union, proposed a plan even more conciliatory than Lincoln’s for rebuilding the South. He granted pardons to many of the former confederates. The Georgia Sea Islands and other places, land that had been sold or given to freed African people, was taken away from them and returned to former slave owners. No substantial economic assistance was given to formerly enslaved Africans. No sustainable economic plan was formulated to move them into property owning status or capitalist status.
Congress established the Bureau of Refugees, Freedmen and Abandoned Land, or the Freedmen’s Bureau, in 1865 to deal with the problem of rebuilding the South. Most often, the bureau acted to stymie black progress as it worked hand in hand with ex-confederates.
The federal laws passed during Reconstruction impacted the free African population as well as the formerly enslaved. They were Black codes and Black laws.

Thaddeus Stevens, the radical Republican and U.S. Representative from Lancaster County, Pennsylvania suggested in 1865 that southern plantations be broken up and redistributed in forty-acre increments to the freedmen. His reparations "forty acres and a mule" plan was not adopted, however. Instead, a new type of enslavement, the sharecropping and convict labor systems, was initiated.

Frederick Douglass had said when Johnson became president, "Whatever Andrew Johnson may be, he is certainly no friend of our race." Douglass was to be proven more than correct, because under this president African rights were steadily eroded.

Many things that came out of Reconstruction didn’t just benefit Africans, however. Hospitals, education, old age homes, homes for the deaf and blind were established as a result of Reconstruction. As a result of the few Africans who were actually legislators in some of the states, new roads and public buildings were built.

The U.S. Congress established the Freedmen’s Savings Bank in 1865. Believing the bank to be backed like most other banks in the country by government guarantees, thousands of Africans put their hard earned money in that bank. By 1874 seven million dollars had been deposited. Poor investments and, most significantly, poor management by the white trustees who used that money to give loans to their own people caused it to fail in 1874. The Freedman’s Bank wasn’t insured. All the other banks were. The whites had in fact stolen these hard-earned nickels and dimes from African people.

Most of the rights gained during Reconstruction were quickly lost by 1877 when the federal government pulled government troops out of the South and abandoned African people, effectively ending the era. Southern whites, secure in the knowledge that the federal government would not interfere, began a systematic abridgment of African social, political and economic rights. The collapse of Reconstruction signaled the failure of white Americans to extend to and protect the citizenship rights of African-Americans.

The legacy of enslavement and the attitudes that whites had about blacks were translated into oppressive and discriminatory Jim Crow laws that legislated segregation and other discriminatory practices on the basis of states’ rights. At the same time that white leaders were engaged in these laws and practices, there was a massive anti-African propaganda campaign going on in universities, churches and the social arena.

On the political front, poll taxes were instituted. Property requirements were instituted. The grandfather clause was instituted. Whites blocked the entrances to polling places and did not allow Africans to enter. They stole ballots boxes. They changed polling places to secret locations. They threatened African voters by making them sign work contracts that said they had to vote the Democratic ticket. The newspapers published the names of Africans who had registered to vote so that whites could retaliate against them.

The Freedman’s Bureau introduced the practice of forced labor. It passed a regulation that said if a black man refused to sign a contract and accept a job, he would be forced to work for no pay. African children were forcibly indentured to white employers. Black women were charged with vagrancy if they stayed at home to care for their own children.

White employers immediately seized upon this regulation to exploit Africans who had just been emancipated from enslavement by instituting sharecropping and the convict labor systems to exploit their labor. Their contracts gave them the right to physically punish Africans for infractions, and were often written in such a way as to cheat Africans of their labor. Of course, the newly emancipated Africans had just been working for the last 300 years for no pay.

We don’t need to engage in theoretical rhetoric to justify reparations. We can use our history and the specifics of our history. I could go on for days to give the specific laws and practices that mandated our second class citizenship. Africans have to decide as a people whether or not liberation is important enough for us to demand, en masse, reparations, and to use those reparations communally. I will go along with what the masses decide, but my own personal choice is that it be self-determining, meaning that I don’t think we can change this system so we should not be a part of it.

_________

Read the January 2002 Burning Spear Newspaper for more testimony from this Tribunal. Contact the above email to arrange recieving a copy

Nice clip there, Matt. But both you and her forgot a couple of details.

1. How can you justify the forcible removal of income from others to be distributed to a group decades after these problems were corrected?

2. How do you determine who gets what and how much?

3. How do you determine who has to pay?

No one is arguing against the acknowledgement that what was done to the people of african descent was wrong. What IS at question, is how can reparations be made and still be fair to those who had zero connection to slavery....

....and please don't use the tired argument that "Goverment money" is what should be used to pay reparations. "Goverment Money" = Taxes = money out of everyone's pocket.

actually what you're asking is covered in the thread. you might read through it when you have the time.

however as you point out, the debate isn't whether or not these is "acknowledgement that what was done to the people of african descent was wrong," (although the u.s. government has never done that). the debate is whether or not the present-day suffering of african people in the u.s. can be attributed to their historic and present-day oppression of black people within the context of u.s. society. conversely, the debate is whether or not the relative affluence of whites in u.s. society can be attributed to the same thing.

if they can then white society owes. that it might be complicated to pay the debt does not invalidate that the debt is owed.

Matthew,

The issue isn't as cut and dried as "Black people were hurt, White people must pay."

Here's just a few more details about our society's past that may serve to complicate the matter further.

People from India, Pakistan, the Middle East, etc. were classified as "White."

Chinese, while being under forced labor, were never technically "Slaves," but very close. Conversely, they have benefited as an ethnic group in the "White Society."

Hispanics were slave owners out west, so therefore should the hispanic communities have to pay out for reparations as well?