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Indybay Feature

Affirmative Action or Reparations?

by Dennis Fox
Affirmative action remains necessary, but it's neither perfect nor enough.

George W. Bush's attack on the University of Michigan's affirmative action admissions policy came just weeks after he helped dump Majority Leader Trent Lott, whose offhand nostalgia for Strom Thurmond's segregationist past tarnished the modern Republican image. The Bushies figure that fulminating against old-fashioned blatant racism provides cover for their more polite institutional variant. They're probably right.

Still, the greatest barrier to meaningful equality in our astonishingly unequal society is not unconcealed haters for whom Thurmond's Dixiecrats are more model than embarrassment. They're dangerous, yes, but not dominant. It's not even the Supreme Court, which might end affirmative action even before Bush appoints new justices. More significant are mainstream middle-class whites with no particular animosity toward the people of color with whom they interact.

Many ordinary white Americans insist they never judge anyone by the color of their skin and prefer to notice how far we have come, not how far we have yet to go. Many younger ones don't know that segregation was not just tolerated but legally mandated. They say they want anti-discrimination laws enforced. And they're reasonably troubled by documented evidence of persistent discrimination -- job applicants with "white-sounding" names in a recent study getting more calls for interviews than "black-sounding" applicants with identical resumes; African American and Hispanic motorists stopped and searched by police more often than whites, even though, in a recent report, the whites more often carried drugs; the death penalty imposed disproportionately on those who murder white people, especially when the killer is black.

Some continuing bias is attributable to outright racists -- employers and landlords, cops and prosecutors, judges and jurors consciously preserving white privilege.

Yet more often than not discriminators do try to assess situations based on relevant nonracial facts. The problem is failing to recognize how cultural stereotypes affect what we consider relevant, especially in ambiguous, subjective circumstances such as deciding whom to hire, search, or execute. That's why equality requires countering not just bare-faced racism but the stereotype-driven everyday acts of people who are not racists, only human.

Back when Thurmond's crowd demanded the traditional right to segregate, anti-discrimination law was the most promising attack on a vulnerable status quo. Yet for many activists, legal equality was just the means to an end that simply banning intentional discrimination could never achieve: economic, social, and political equality.

Since then, the balance has shifted. Abandoning their ideological Thurmondian progenitors, today's conservatives concede that nondiscrimination law is necessary -- but they also insist it's sufficient. History is legally irrelevant, they claim, because now we're all equal in the eyes of blind law.

Most liberals -- realizing that ending discrimination makes nary a dent in wealth and power built on centuries of slavery, segregation, and privilege -- advocate additional steps to provide equal opportunity outside the courtroom where it counts. And indeed affirmative action has helped bring better education and jobs to those traditionally excluded (especially middle-class people of color and white women). It makes schools and workplaces somewhat more diverse, a societal good ignored by conservatives focused only on color-blind individual rights.

But, unfortunately, too many affirmative action supporters believe bureaucratically administered equal opportunity is the best we can hope for and that true equality of results is simply impossible.

Affirmative action remains necessary, but it's neither perfect nor enough. Defensive supporters sometimes deny that, like any bureaucratic system, affirmative action makes mistakes. They too infrequently address in sufficient detail underlying questions -- what does it mean to be qualified? who determines the standards and measures? when should society reward those with the most measured merit, and when instead capable others with greater need? The underlying implication that the pain felt by passed-over guiltless whites is either deserved or unimportant threatens affirmative action's survival in a capitalist society that refuses to provide decent education and jobs to everyone.

Not surprisingly, better solutions face stiff resistance. Attempts to force the U.S. government to fulfill the post-Civil War 40-acres-and-a-mule promise to former slaves (with compensation in amounts meaningful today) have gone nowhere. Efforts to recoup profits from slavery-enriched corporations have yet to be addressed in court; any payments will likely stem from public pressure rather than judicial rulings. Reparations raise so many complex issues that they're easily dismissed.

But the justification for reparations seems more intuitive than the case for affirmative action. The government that allowed slavery still exists -- under the Constitution, our institutions connect seamlessly to the past. Corporations have legal immortality; it's time they faced the downside as well as the advantages. Even new immigrants whose ancestors enslaved no one benefit from a society built on slave labor.

Descendants of slaves deserve compensation for stolen labor and lost lives regardless of their current class position. Affirmative action, though still important, remains a second-best alternative.

-------------------

Dennis Fox, on leave from his position as associate professor of legal studies and psychology at the University of Illinois at Springfield, lives in Massachusetts. He is co-editor of "Critical Psychology: An Introduction" and co-founder of RadPsyNet: The Radical Psychology Network (http://www.radpsynet.org). His commentaries and essays are posted at http://www.dennisfox.net .
by Reparations Are the Only Way
Affirmative action is a joke it's only good for white guys like bush whose daddy wants to get them into Yale.
by Tim
I have never owned a slave or segregated anyone by race. My ancestors to the best of my knowledge never owned a slave, having been poor and emigrating to this country after the Civil War.

Why should I be punished for crimes I did not commit or benefit from? (Think hard before you take the obvious counter to my words "benefit from.")

What if reparations are valid? My Irish ancestors suffered under the potato famine and this suffering can be blamed on England. Where's my reparations for that? Some of my ancestors are English. Shall I write a check from myself (for the crimes of my English ancestors) to myself (for the suffering of my Irish ancestors)? What about the Norman conquest of 1066? Some of my English ancestors might have suffered under that. I think some of my ancestors were German. Can I sue all Protestant churchgoers for the turmoil and war caused in Germany by the Reformation?

Tim
by aaron
If "reparations" is to be taken seriously, and be something more than just a slogan to bandy about to convey militancy or moral righteousness, it needs to be defined. Boiled down, as I see it, are a couple of inter-locking issues that can be posed as questions:

1) If it's about money, as usually implied, how is it determined who gets some? How much will each person deemed deserving receive? From whom are reparations paid and by what mechanism?

2) What's the strategy for getting reparations? Is the reparations demand achievable through lobbying efforts, demonstations, and voting? If so, what does this say about the reparations demand? If not so, what strategies do reparations advocates propose?



by Joseph Anderson -- My column on Reparations
Tim wrote:
"Reparation
by Tim • Sunday January 26, 2003 at 07:15 AM:

I have never owned a slave or segregated anyone by race. My ancestors to the best of my knowledge never owned a slave, having been poor and emigrating to this country after the Civil War."

JA responds: So?

Tim wrote: "Why should I be punished for crimes I did not commit or benefit from?"

JA responds: *You*'re NOT being punished.

Tim wrote: "My Irish ancestors suffered under the potato famine and this suffering can be blamed on England. Where's my reparations for that?"

JA responds: Go for it, if you want.

Tim Wrote: "Some of my ancestors are English. Shall I write a check from myself (for the crimes of my English ancestors) to myself (for the suffering of my Irish ancestors)?"

JA responds: *Sure*, if you want.

Tim wrote: "What about the Norman conquest of 1066? Some of my English ancestors might have suffered under that. I think some of my ancestors were German. Can I sue all Protestant churchgoers for the turmoil and war caused in Germany by the Reformation?"

JA responds: Why not, if you want?


Aside from Tim's typical, illogical,diversionary--and sometimes inane--remarks, if you want to read an intelligent analysis of this issue you can go to:

Shorter version--

The Issue is Racism:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2001/03/26/ED155503.DTL

follow-up letter to the editor--

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2001/03/27/ED187756.DTL


Longer version (in the Brown University Daily Herald and several other university newspapers, as well as available online):

At the University of California-Berkeley, on his latest anti-African American, racial-vendetta crusade, David Horowitz abruptly turned tail and bolted, after his speech at UC Berkeley (March 15) after only the third questioner [I!] challenged him. People of color have rightly condemned his “reparations” ad and ranting speech as racist.

Unfortunately, there was always a handful of either loosely wrapped or intellectually thin leftists in the 1960s (e.g., Clarence Thomas) who ultimately felt that the sails blowing to the right-wing were financially fuller and decided to go with that.

Horowitz runs his attack operations out of Los Angeles. His headquarters is the harmless sounding Center for the Study of Popular Culture. But Horowitz’s activities and his recent book, “Hating Whitey,” are anything but harmless. His book attacks African-American civil rights activists as being anti-white racists. Horowitz has become a professional huckster who basically makes a living off of disparaging black folks.

In the meantime, Horowitz raises to a fine political art the same “self-victimology” that he generally attacks African Americans as perpetrating. Here Horowitz cloaks himself as the ultimate “free speech martyr.” But David Horowitz was not out to promote free speech. David Horowitz was out to promote himself — as usual.

Many whites, including UC Berkeley Chancellor Robert Berdahl, have tried to twist Horowitz’s ad issue into a “free speech” issue. So it is obvious that, even in the year 2001, many whites, including the chancellor, still don’t recognize blatant racism, suitably couched. This is a despicable state of affairs in a so-called institution of “higher learning,” to borrow from the title of Ice Cube’s rap song on racism in college.

In a format perverting the U.S. Constitution’s Bill of Rights, Horowitz claimed that reparations to African Americans have already been paid in the form of welfare. In a racist mindset at the foundation of all his arguments, Horowitz thus stereotypes most blacks as living on welfare. Apart from that being false, welfare is provided to people because they are poor, not because they are black.

In a sick twist, Horowitz then claims that not only does America not owe blacks reparations but that, in fact, it is blacks who owe America a greater debt — for ending slavery. He further says that blacks today have actually benefited from the national wealth that slavery helped to create. Would any newspaper publish an ad that said that the Jews actually benefited from the Jewish Holocaust, because that’s how they got Israel?

So Horowitz believes that the nation that immorally accepted brutal slavery then gave blacks a gift by eventually outlawing the practice and replacing it with American Jim Crow apartheid practices. By the same perverted logic, a kidnap-beating-rape victim would owe a debt to her brutal rapist, if he finally let her go free.

In another twisted claim, Horowitz said that there were thousands of blacks who also owned slaves. Actually, it was free blacks who, in many cases, purchased their own family members to protect them in and from slave-owning states.

In his ad Horowitz also claimed that most Americans have no connection to slavery. This is patently false: Slavery has spawned a legacy of racial oppression that exists to this day. As a result of slavery, whites today have inherited a preferential advantage [and greater wealth, individually and as a nation, from slavery, Jim Crow apartheid, and ongoing institutional discrimination].

Southern post-Civil War laws like the “Black Codes” made it illegal for African Americans to work for themselves. From Tulsa, Okla., to Rosewood, Fla., African Americans were later told to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps, and when they did, successful African-American business towns and districts were often destroyed by rioting whites or, even later, by “urban renewal.”

For an enlightening discourse on the reparations issue, Randall Robinson, head of TransAfrica, the organization that spearheaded the American divestment movement against then-apartheid South Africa, has written the book “The Debt: What America Owes to Blacks.”

Horowitz’s ad not only invokes racist stereotypes but also relies on raising straw man arguments to justify its claims. Over and over, he asserts the usual specious argument that not all whites benefited from slavery. That is false anyway: Whites benefited as a nation.

But, his argument is legally irrelevant. Many Americans don’t directly benefit from all national policies. But the arguments for reparations aren’t made on the basis of whether every white person directly gained from slavery (just as the debts of a corporation don’t depend on who it comprises). The arguments are made on the basis that the United States itself institutionalized slavery and protected it by law.

As the government is an entity that survives generations, its debts and obligations survive the lifespan of any particular individuals. As a citizen of the United States, one not only enjoys the rights and privileges of citizenship but also shares the *debts* and *liabilities* of the nation.

Present-day Americans cannot evade national debts by claiming they were incurred by, and only benefited, a prior generation. Thus, the moral debt arising from 350 years of free, forced, brutal labor and practically free “Jim Crow” bitter labor for millions of blacks — barely ending in the 1960s — is an obligation the United States cannot ignore. Nor can the United States evade a moral debt merely because the direct victims have died. The descendents of slavery have inherited a right to some meaningful form of restitution because they still greatly inherit its legacy.

No government would make the descendents of each beneficiary pay the descendents of each victim for even an inhumane national policy whose detriment still exists. Thus, governments make restitution to victims as a group or class. This is a debt that was once promised [and repeatedly asked to honor] but soon abandoned by the United States.

Finally, Horowitz was forced to admit that the First Amendment does *NOT* require any newspaper to accept a paid ad. [That's when he turned tail and ran off!] But newspapers should have moral standards below which they would reject any ad, especially an incendiary publicity stunt. The First Amendment does, however, allow a newspaper to express regret, upon reflection, for printing a self-promoting, morally obscene ad.

The fact that the Daily Californian, Chancellor Berdahl, The Brown Daily Herald, Brown University President Blumstein and many white students don’t recognize just how racist the ad was is shocking.
by white guy
I'm not going to pay for shit until, I get all the money that has been given to all those who want Reparations, for housing, food stamps, medical care(and there is a ton of it spend, like gang banging, you get the point), and after I get all the money back, then I'll pay Reparations. After they get the money, I'll give some more, so you can buy a plane ticked back to where ever you came from, oh wait you were born here, sorry, um ah come to think of it you werent even a slave, and you want money for what again?
by mike
Fuck you, you racist piece of shit.
by J Anderson
Regarding: yo, by white guy, a.k.a. Stupid White Boy, • Monday January 27, 2003 at 12:52 AM (see above):

SWB: "I'm not going to pay for shit"

JA: That's right!--nobody is asking *YOU* to pay for shit, so sit your skinny rail ass back down.

SWB: "until, I get all the money that has been given"

JA: *YOU* didn't give any, so you can take your ass back to Europe if you don't like it!

(Did you kill any Indians? Did you intern any Japanese-Americans? Did you put any Jews into death camps? Our government has provided reparations or other funds for all these groups--or their descendents--too.)

*I'd* be ALL for giving a slimey racist white boy like *YOU* 'reparations' so that you can learn now to READ!--*and* for a ticket back to Europe!--since you obviously lack even sufficiently rudimentary reading comprehension--by raising 'Stupid White Boy' arguments that have already been addressed and answered in my column! (Hey! I know!: Why don't *YOU* submit a column to the San Francisco Chronicle!? They even *paid* me for mine!)

Seriously, folks, this is the kind of "sick white brother and [or] sister" that MLK wrote about. This is the kind of racist idiot that *volunteers* or is sent and resent out by the elite--on a higher level, those sent, like Arthur Jensen, William Shockley, Dnesh D'Souza, Charles Murray, David Horowitz, Frank Lott, and other assorted racists--to keep us ALL divided. This, while the elite reap the greatest financial benefits from a divided working class (i.e., anyone who does not live off investments, corporate/industrial ownership, or executive corporate management).

But, since I do know lots of white guys who are smarter than this one and not like him, "white guy" should more specifically call himself "racist *idiot* white guy".
by Tim
"JA responds: *You*'re NOT being punished. "

My money will be taken (taxes) as punishment for historical actions.

All the inane examples I gave are just as inane as the reparations you advocate. We could, for example, go back to the subjugation of Neanderthal man by Cro-Magnon man sometime in prehistory.

Tim
by Joseph Anderson
Regarding: Not being punished
by Tim • Monday January 27, 2003 at 02:20 AM:
"JA responds: *You*'re NOT being punished. "

Tim: "My money will be taken (taxes) as punishment for historical actions."

JA: Nobody is asking *YOU* to pay for anything--and I *know* that trash like "(racist idiot) white guy" ain't got no money anyway! I *know* that trash like *him*, if perhaps you too, couldn't pay for *3* minutes of plantation slaves time! And taxes *aren't* "punishment: they are a financial, legal obligations--whether you or I oppose some, or some expenditures, of them or not--that we ALL pay to the government as citizens of this country. "Punishment" is a penalty you get for being determined guilty of violating the law.

Since you are "reading-challenged", similarly to "racist idiot white guy", though you have *yet* to present me with any *obvious* evidence that you are racist (so I will *not* call *you* that), let me cut&paste a paragraph from my column, and let me again try to help you understand the legal concepts involved. Perhaps *isolating* the relevant paragraph may make it easier for you to read and comprehend:

"As the government is an entity that survives generations, its debts and obligations survive the lifespan of any particular individuals. As a legal *citizen* of the United States, one not only enjoys the rights and privileges of citizenship but also shares in the **debts** and **liabilities** [the financial *and* moral obligations] of the nation [as an institutional government entity itself]." The government of the United States of America itself is responsible for sanctioning, promoting, abetting, and protecting—indeed Constitutionalizing—slavery and Jim Crow. Your or your family's hypothetical *personal*--or individual extant corporations'--responsibility would be another adjudication.

And to repeat from my column, in addition to state-sanctioned slavery, American legalized apartheid, "Jim Crow", also a system that stole labor, 'wealth', formal educations and futures--self-determination--from *MILLIONS* of Blacks, lasted officially into the 1960's--and unofficially beyond that even into the 1970's (in some rural places in the South, against poor Blacks, even to this day). And again, not to mention the repeated, respective, destruction of Black business districts and neighborhood viability by urban transportation systems (like the heart of West Oakland’s nationally-known Black commercial district was destroyed) and “urban renewal”.

Now, what gets me is that the government can spend *HUNDREDS* OF *BILLIONS*on wasteful 'pork barrel' spending; it can spend *TRILLIONS* on 'Star Wars' military follies alone (which would probably require millions of lines of fairly error free computer code, can never be fully tested, and would never work against a *real-life* and *determined* nuclear strike--and hasn't worked yet, even in *rigged* tests--I mean we can't even reliably keep passenger planes in the air or railroad trains on the tracks but we're supposed to be able to reliably knock down thermonuclear missiles?); it can spend *more* *HUNDREDS* of *BILLIONS* building *more* nuclear bombs, adding to the tens of thousands that we already have; it can spend *BILLIONS* on wars (where if you just *gave* the other side the money straight out, they would probably just give in, without killing anywhere from thousands to millions of people!); it can spend *even more* *HUNDREDS* of *BILLIONS* on national financial scandals to bail out elite investors (the people who own the politicians) and corporations (ditto); ); it can spend *HUNDREDS* of *BILLIONS* for *INCARCERTATING* even poor Blacks yet unborn; but talk about far less money for 350 years of mass crimes against humanity and mass human and civil rights violations--sanctioned and protected by *THE STATE*--and white folks like you WHOOP and HOLLER bloody murder!

And since Blacks are only 12% of the general population (6-7% in Calif.), this is money (whether granted individually—very doubtful—or institutionally—undoubtedly) that would cycle into the general economy (like spending money on home improvement or construction, durable goods, health care, and various services) that would financially benefit whites like you!—a financial boost to society *in general*—instead of to the rich elite so that they can go buy another million-dollar oil painting or corruptly-inflated stocks that puts *no* money into your pocket (but, in fact, takes it out, in the latter case).

In fact, if the government spent just the hundreds of millions alone, e.g., on Black educational programs, instead used to bail out Jeb Bush, Shrub Bush, and the savings & loans losses of Jeb and all their elite friends investors, I think that most white folks in this country would commence anti-Black pogroms and 'reinsitutionalize' regular *LYNCHINGS*!

Now, finally, let's see another example of your inanity (motivated by what, we will let different cultural readers surmise)--

Tim: "We could, for example, go back to the subjugation of Neanderthal man by Cro-Magnon man sometime in prehistory."

JA: If Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon man still existed, and there was hypothetically yet extant a modern nation-state of Cro-Magnon Land, under which Neanderthal man had suffered, and if the *GOVERNMENT*, the *STATE* itself of Cro-Magnon Land had sanctioned crimes against humanity or mass human and civil rights atrocities and/or violations against the Neanderthals, then *YES*: Neanderthal man, or his descendents, could morally, legitimately and justly seek reparations--since there are national and international legal precedents for it--from the modern nation-state of Cro-Magnon Land. In fact, some prominent Jewish Holocaust survivors say that African Americans have a claim for reparations on at least the same moral and legal basis that Jewish Holocaust survivors or their descendents have. You see, your further attempt at inanity actually had a legal answer.
by Tim
It is my understanding that reparations for the Holocaust were paid to those who were actually put in the concentration camps. It was also the German government itself putting Jews in camps, whereas to my knowledge the US Government did not directly participate in slavery, except eventually to put an end to it. (The State governments were responsible for laws establishing freedom or slavery within their state.)

Even if slavery is to be considered an action of the US Government, there are very many other instances which have the same validity (or lack of it) as slavery reparations. Take, for example, England - throughout English history there has been state-sponsored persecution of both Catholics AND Protestants. Jews could probably claim reparations from half of the world....

I will no longer, however, call reparations a "punishment" to taxpayers (you have convinced me of that much), but it would be an additional tax burden. Reparations would definitely be viewed by many as an outright personal offense and increase racial emnity.

Tim
by WhizWart
What resources would you need to trace actual slave decendents as opposed to decendents of Africans who have immigrated post 1865?
by anti-capital
why not just refund to everyone all the surplus value exploited from us, ever. then we'd be even with the capitalists.
by Uber-Nerd


Affirmative action denotes that some ARE NOT equal in ability because of skin color and must, therefore, be given special treatment.

I do not accept that people should be judged on anything other than ability.
by Uber-Nerd
Fact Numero Uno: There is no such thing as "Goverment Money." All the money that the goverment has comes directly from the Taxpayers. Us. Businesses do not pay taxes, we do. If a Business has to pay a tax, it is passed directly to the consumer, which is you and me, or whoever buys from that company.

Fact numba two: Reparations to Jews and Japanese-Americans after WWII was justified and well deserved. But there exists one large issue between them and the slaves from a century ago: THEY ARE STILL ALIVE. If there is a slave...and not in the whining, socialistic, pathetic anti-capitalist sense...then I'm all for paying them reparations. Only problem is, they are all dead.

Part C: on the whole, the ratio of better off African Immigrants and "African-Americans" is higher for the Immigrants over time. Why? Because they come over and bust their a$$es to make every cent count. And guess what? They hate us "African-Americans." Can't stand us.

It's been too long since the appropriate moment for reparations. There is no way that a fair settlement could be made at all.

We must all take hold of the American Spirit when faced with adversity: face it and overcome it.
by Joseph Anderson
by Tim • Tuesday January 28, 2003 at 03:35 AM: "It is my understanding that reparations for the Holocaust were paid to [only?] those who were actually put in the concentration camps."

JA: Your understanding would be wrong. In addition, the German government that paid reparations was, of course, not even the German government that perpetrated the Holocaust, since the Nazi regime was destroyed--and the Nazi party (and I believe, technically, anyone claiming to be a Nazi, or using their political symbols) is illegal in Germany since then.

Tim: "It was also the German government itself putting Jews in camps, whereas to my knowledge the US Government did not directly participate in slavery..."

JA: Any goverment that not only legally tolerates and legally accepts but even legally *protects* crimes against humanity or mass civil or human rights violations is *CULPABLE* for those crimes. The U.S. government--as I said in my column--not only *protected* slavery by law, but also *regulated* it in and between the states through various statutes: perhaps the most notorious being the Fugitive Slave Act.

Tim: "...except eventually to put an end to it."

JA: Don't make the U.S. government sound so magnanimous. Lincoln himself never freed any slaves in states that he had control over--only in states/areas that he had NO control over. Lincoln himself said that if it took freeing the slaves to end slavery, then he would, but if it didn't, then he wouldn't. Lincoln 'freed' the slaves in states/areas/territories in rebellion as a military strategy, not a moral impulse. Even after the Civil War, Lincoln said that he in no way considered the Negro equal to whites. (Just as some people think that lower animals should not be tied up, beaten and worked to death, some people happened to think the same thing even of 'lower' human beings.) It was black slaves and black and white Abolitionists/Insurrectionists who fought slavery at every instance of its existence in this country--not the U.S. government. Had not Lincoln been assassinated, with the tremendous emotions (gaining his party--and the anti-slavery 'radicals' in it great sympathy, the Constitutional amendments abolishing slavery would probably have never been passed anytime soon--and when Lincoln was alive, he certainly never pushed for such an amendment.

Tim: "Take, for example, England - throughout English history there has been state-sponsored persecution of both Catholics AND Protestants. Jews could probably claim reparations from half of the world...."

JA: Okay, Tim, you were sounding a bit more intelligent with your questions/comments this time, than you did in your earlier posts--which is why I'm giving you more serious time--but now you are backtracking.

I already went over this before: if a group of English or Irish or Neanderthals or blue polka dot people want to sue some still-existing nation-state for crimes against humanity that they suffered under that state, then there are legal and international precedents for them pursuing their moral and/or legal case. Of course, one cannot pursue a nation-state that no longer exists, and various considerations would come into play (e.g., there were no nation-states at the time of the Neanderthals, so no such culpable nation currently exist, and the evolutionary time lapse would probably not warrant their European evolutionary descendents a morally/legally viable case, especially since, in general, their European descendents far no longer face legal/institutional discrimination as Neanderthals--except those soccer hooligans that act that way and should be scorned--and have long since socially and economically, and in most cases educationally recovered from whatever oppression they may have once suffered ).

Tim: "I will no longer, however, call reparations a "punishment" to taxpayers (you have convinced me of that much)..."

JA: Good! I like to acknowledge intelligent progress where some progress is made.

Tim: "...but it would be an additional tax burden."

JA: Why? How 'bout taking just *some* of the money from the vastly wasteful programs I mentioned above in my previous post?

Tim: "Reparations would definitely be viewed by many as an outright personal offense and increase racial emnity."

JA: You mean that people like *YOU* would "definitely" view reparations "as an outright *personal* offense" and *increase* *YOUR* "*racial* enmity". Let's get that straight and put it out in the open. Why don't you view trillions wasted--or to be wasted--on 'Star War's--or any other government folly--as "an outright personal offense"? Why don't you whoop and holler and dash off sarcastic posts about *that*!? Your *immediate*, *reflexive* *hostility* to the very idea [let alone any considerations of what *forms* reparations might take: cutting Blacks individual checks--oh this often gets white people the most!!--they Pavlovian froth at the mouth like someone Black suddenly shouted "O.J.!!!"--or grants to educational, vocational, and community development programs] reflects *YOUR* already existing racial enmity. That's obvious.

Okay, I've answered enough questions. (You should go hear Southern white anti-racist activist Tim Wise at La Pena Cultural Center in Berkeley, Thursday, Jan 30th at 7:00pm to get anymore nagging questions of yours answered.)

WhizWart (January 28): "What resources would you need to trace actual slave decendents as opposed to decendents of Africans who have immigrated post 1865?"

JA: I've already responded to this in my column. Is anybody taught how to *read* anymore?:

"No government would make the descendents of each beneficiary pay the descendents of each victim for even an inhumane national policy whose detriment still exists. Thus, governments make restitution to victims as a group or class."

[This is done all the time in various kinds of class action suits or processes, both private and governmental.]

"...the moral debt arising from 350 years of free, forced, brutal labor and practically free “Jim Crow” bitter labor for millions of blacks — barely ending in the 1960s — is an obligation the United States cannot ignore." De jure discrimination ended in the mid-'60's; gross de facto institutional discrimination ended much later, and elements of it still continue to different extents depending on what part of the country one lives in or what political circumstances exist. In fact, racial discrimination is not even a criminal offense!

There are *plenty* of African Americans who grew up under "Jim Crow" legalized oppression and discrimination--who had parents/granparents who were slaves and sharecropper slaves. There are plenty of people alive today who were forced to pick cotten and forced into other menial "Jim Crow" labor. There are plenty of Blacks today who were forced into submarginal Jim Crow schools. And plenty of all of them have family and children who are, of course, alive today.

Uber-Nerd: "Affirmative action denotes that some ARE NOT equal in ability because of skin color and must, therefore, be given special treatment."

JA: First of all, you ain't Black--so quit pretending.

Second, white guys have gotten "special treatment" and "preferences" for the entire history of the country up to the *present*. Can you say George Bush Jr.? Got into Yale with a C- average. Then got into Harvard as an equally marginal student.

Third, Affirmative Action says that institutions, like universities, couldn't, for example, continue to have academic departments with 60 faculty--mostly white men--in the department--and only 3 people of color--all 3 Asians!--that's 5%--and maybe only *1* or *2* tenured--in the Bay Area!--with 30%+ Asians--remember?: "the model minority"!--"the *really* studious"--"the highest achievers"--in the population! (Asian Americans are even underrepresented on tenured faculties in the physical sciences and mathematics, let alone the social sciences, at Berkeley, let alone within other major metropolitan areas.)

I was invited to write the definitive story for an Asian American magazine--"Slant" magazine--on Professor Marcy Wong--DENIED TENURE in the UC Berkeley architecture department, after having architecture *and* engineering degrees from Columbia, Princeton, and Stanford. With the support, advice, counsel and help of many, including me (who told her that the university would "play chicken" until it got on the court house steps!), she won the largest discrimination award in the history of the University of California: $1,000,000.00!

[In fact, the only time I wasn't ever discriminated against in the workplace was when I worked for an Asian.]

Affrimative Action says that there can't/shouldn't only be *1* tenured/untenured Black professor in the entire law school. It says that white contractors can't continue to make secret agreements to monopolize pulic works contracts. It says that you can't continue to have a roomfull of white corporate executives caught on tape calling Blacks "niggers" and saying how they will keep them out. It says that if you have a city or geographical region where there are respective minority populations of 30-50%--now including whites in California and Hawai'i--then *surely* you can find more than 0.05%--or *less*--of some *qualified* minority--WHO ARE *AT LEAST* EQUAL IN ABILITY (since you can cream--*skim*--off the top of the *qualified* population)--in your workplace. Yet, the largest beneficiaries of affirmative action--as anyone knows who really knows about it--are *WHITE* women: WHITES!!

(Although I strongly disagree with both of them politically, as well as with their House Negro role, but since you can *no doubt* politically relate to them, both Colin Powell and Condaleeza Rice say that they are affirmative action success stories.)


Now...:

"new idea" by "anti-capital" (January 28th): "why not just refund to everyone all the surplus value exploited from us, ever. then we'd be even with the capitalists."

JA: I *lllike* the way you *think*!

Now see! *This* is truly a socially enlightened individual. Instead of each of us having to scrap for our respective group and labor class share of economic justice from the capitalists (I mean the *real* industrial and corporate capitalists, not the self-deluded, smalltimers, wannabees, and lackeys, that don't own shit)--[in a falsely perceived (like Tim) zero-sum gain]--s/he wants us *all* to work for it *together*! *That's* what the *ruling* capitalists would hate!--and fear!: to see white, black, brown, red, and yellow, male and female, institutionally warehoused ('uneducated'
prison surplus labor poorhouses), structurally unemployed, menial labor, blue-collar, pink-collar and even white-collar ‘slaves’, all finally getting smart enough to all be working together for justice!!
by aaron
Rightists that complain endlessly about the "wasted tax money" that goes to "welfare cases" aren't known to criticize the massive mortgage tax subsidy that goes to the "middle class". Nor do we hear much about the equally huge giveaways to ranchers, agri-business, military contractors, real estate interests etc etc. Indeed, capitalism would fall without a gargantuan state to defend, enforce, and perpetuate its existence.

That said, I still haven't gotten an answer to my question poster earlier. I'll post it again:

If "reparations" is to be taken seriously, and be something more than just a slogan to bandy about to convey militancy or moral righteousness, it needs to be defined. Boiled down, as I see it, are a couple of inter-locking issues that can be posed as questions:

1) If it's about money, as usually implied, how is it determined who gets some? How much will each person deemed deserving receive? From whom are reparations paid and by what mechanism?

2) What's the strategy for getting reparations? Is the reparations demand achievable through lobbying efforts, demonstations, and voting? If so, what does this say about the reparations demand? If not so, what strategies do reparations advocates propose?

by Joseph Anderson
Since I will repond here (to aaron), let me also take this opportunity to say that :

(a) Reparations or (b) Affirmative Action are *NOT* based on skin color! They are based on, respectively, (a) crimes against humanity or mass human and civil rights violations sanctioned by the state against a class of people and (b) demonstrating to the government a history of deeply entrenched, systematic, institutional, pervasive, persistent, and *ongoing* DISCRIMINATION*! --against a class or classes of people.

(That's why the largest class, *WHITE* women, have gotten the *most* affirmative action--besides the fact that now their white husbands or live-together boyfriend mates need to also couple their incomes--need a decent second income--to have a decent yuppie standard of living, like owning a nice home in a nice neighborhood.)


Now...:

I assume that you did not read this before you posted:

(Cut & Paste):

"[let alone any considerations of what *forms* reparations might take: cutting Blacks individual checks--oh this often gets white people the most!!--they Pavlovian froth at the mouth like someone Black suddenly shouted "O.J.!!!"--or grants to educational, vocational, and community development programs]"

Reparations--hypothetically (since why would the U.S. pay reparations now, when it wouldn't even honor it's promise right after the Civil War, although white plantation slave owners themselves got reparations!)--to Blacks would probably be in the form of some program that benefits all Blacks.

As for any further answer to (1), you will have to *READ* my column--again.

As for your answer to (2), those answers are outside of the scope of my column, are very involved, and are too hypothetical and involved for me to answer. I suggest you *READ THE BOOK* mentioned in my column! I am a reparations commentator/analyst, not a reparations activist. I am a pro-Palestinian human rights activist (among other things). In a just settlement of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict they too will *CERTAINLY* deserve reparations from the state of Israel--just as much as the Nazi-era Jews did from the state of Germany.
by Joseph Anderson
I hope that I didn't sound too brusque, just above, aaron. I don't know what kind of points you post elsewhere (as there are about three "aarons" that regularly post to sf.indymedia), but you actually made an excellent point above (similar to one that I made to Tim in my remarks above):

" Rightists that complain endlessly about the "wasted tax money" that goes to "welfare cases" aren't known to criticize the massive mortgage tax subsidy that goes to the "middle class". Nor do we hear much about the equally huge giveaways to ranchers, agri-business, military contractors, real estate interests etc etc. "

And your questions were good too (except the ones already addressed in my column).

I was in a rush to get ready to go to the Hitichens-Danner debate this evening at Zellerbach at Berkeley.
by aaron
"Reparations.... to Blacks would probably be in the form of some program that benefits all Blacks."

that's excruciatingly vague, Joseph. be specific--I'm not an antagonistic rightist, so, please, put down your defenses and be more specific. would reparations mean a cash settlement to Condoleeza Rice, Colin Powel, Willie Brown, David Dinkins, JC Watts, Ward Connerly etc etc? If not, would reparations be some sort of Clintonesque apology? What does it mean?

I think that question of strategy is indispensible, unless all the talk of reparations is just...talk. Could you forsee an acceptable version of reparations implemented without resort to large-scale political unrest? If not, are you saying that US capitalism--that is, US capitalism IN CRISIS--will cede to this demand without a real fight? If so, how do you reconcile the call for reparations with anti-capitalist politics?

BTW, i was the 'aaron' talking smack about Hitchens the other day. How did the "debate" go?

by Larry "Bud" Melman
Tell me, JA, have you ever read the Lincoln-Douglas debates? If so, I don't see how you could ascribe his motivation to free slaves to purely a "military strategy, not a moral impulse", as if the two were mutually exclusive. You do huge disservice to a great American.
by Question for the editors
Why are racial slurs allowed against white people?
by just wondering
Which racial slurs are you refering to? Where?
by Uber-Nerd
Eventhough I am not white, I see it happen with frequency on Indy.

For instance, several posts were supplied by an individual who went by the moniker: CrackaKilla.

"Cracker" and "Honkey" were the more polite terms he had for Caucasians.
by just wondering
Do you think he meant it, or is a white guy, stirring up hate by pretending to be a Black bigot?
by aaron
"reparations people" have no answers to the hard questions.

perhaps it's just a phony demand, espoused for shock value and nothing else.

maybe that's why so many phony, pseudo-radical gas-bags favor "reparations".

by mike
the only reparations that make sense are multiracial social programs like socialized medicine, etc. that address class as well as racial inequalities and thus stop giving blacks and poor whites excuses to hate each other. Otherwise the cry for "reparations" is just black nationalist bullshit.
by spooksmasher
There is no effective , organized or systematic attempt to create disunity amongst the leftist community at this Indy Media site. Any feeble effort to do so will be easily recognized by the overwhelmingly majority of its intelligent readers.
by Col. Spook
You didn't just say "intelligent readers" and "Indymedia" in the same sentence, did you?
by matthew
reparations.gif
aaron and others raise up the complications involved with meeting the demand for reparations to african people. is it money or some other form? how will it impact on the african petty bourgeois and neo colonial puppets like colin powell? etc.

this is an opportunist defense against the demand for reparations. the first question is it a just demand? do african people have a right to compensation for the hundred of years of unspeakable repression they've endured which made capitalism filthy rich, and which has sentenced african people to centuries of abject poverty and worse.

if they do, you can't say "it's too complicated to meet that demand. therefore the demand is invalid."

unity from white people with reparations for colonized people -- particulary african and indigenous people -- will prove a critical ideological and material blow against capitlaism, and will help defuse a struggle from degrading into a "race war." along those lines whether not someone agrees with reparations or not, helps me determine if that person is genuinely interested in ending this social system build on oppression, or just a reformist posturnig "windbag," as aaron put it, intersting in a better distribution of stolen wealth for those on top, while keeping the pedastal of capitalism in place.
by matthew
slaveship.gif
the demand for reparations to african people inside the u.s., even before the discussion of how reparations will take form, is relevant. it turns rightside up the question of who is the criminal, and who is the victim. right now, white power/capitalism has got everyone believe that it is african people who are the criminals. by demanding reparations, you are recognizing the conditions of life for black people inside the u.s. are conditions imposed on them for the purpose of exploitation.

"Reparations now" is a powerful slogan!
by Karla With a K (karlawak4 [at] aol.com)
http://www.karlawithak.net
Please visit my site and "Vote".
The difference between the enslavement of Africans in the United States and every other race of people who have suffered slavery is the economic plan postulated in 1712, by Willie Lynch, a British slave owner, with plantations in the West Indies. It was not called the "Willie Lynch Economic Plan," as I have tagged it, but it definitely was an economic plan to create a division of labor in this country. And if any young person tries to convince you they've taken the work "nigger" and turned "negative into a positive," have them read the Willie Lynch Economic Plan from beginning to end. Word for word. Out LOUD! See if they can even get through it. They'll probably say they don't want to read anymore bacause it is such a disturbing realization. Ain't nothing positive about that word....especially after reading Willie Lynch's words.
Yes, many other races of people have suffered slavery, most by losing a war, with servitude being the punishment. Africans brought to America, however, were premeditatedly contained by methods recommended and laid out in detail by Willie Lynch in a document called "THE ORIGIN AND DEVELOPMENT OF A SOCIAL BEING CALLED "THE NEGRO," aka the "Willie Lynch Economic Plan of 1712."
My mission is to educate people about this heinous Willie Lynch Economic Plan, then you might understand the racism we ALL suffer, Black, White, Brown, Yellow and Red. We just suffer it in different ways. When you understand this plan, it will uncover an economic "hate crime" that systematically occurred in our country against Africans and Black Americans, starting in 1712 and has lasted until the present. the "physical" slavery was dealt with, but the real evil, the "psychological" slavery perpetuates today, as Lynch said it would. The "plan" was never taught in school, but thank God, the Internet is forcing information "they've" tried to keep secret for so long, out of the closet! Bush's grandfather, Prescott Bush's connection with the Nazis. The truth about Deregulation and the Telecommunications Act of 1996.
I pray that you will read the Willie Lynch Economic Plan, look at your life and honestly assess the degree to which you've been Willie Lynched, whether you're White, Black, Brown, Yellow or Red. It's not even a question as to whether or not you have been Willie Lynched, it's to what degree, that must be considered.
I had no choice but to recognize that my current over 40, single, childless status is a direct result of Willie Lynchism. I was reared to be "independent, don't you worry about a man taking care of you, you can take care of yourself," "what can a man do that you can't do? Nothing." "And if you need services from the state, you better get that man out of your house!" Just like the African women in 1712 were "instructed" to regard their African men.
It's not bad for a woman to take care of herself, everyone wants to be able to do that, but the attitude that a man "can't" and that he's nothing but a stud breeder, who is no good to the economy unless he's "broken like a horse" is a problem. Residual effects of the "plan" are still with us in the 21st Century, but I won't elaborate right now.
I believe that this "Willie Lynch Economic Plan" is the primary reason Blacks in America deserve Reparations.
The government has awarded various other victims like the Japanese, the Native Americans, Alaskans, and of course, the Jews, Reparations in one form or another. Black Americans need to consider what form of Reparations would work. One like the Kashruth Dept. of Rabbinical Council of America, run by Rabbis of the Othordox Union? Judges and Lawyers running a Reparations Certification program? I think that "model" would work fine with a few modifications. Black Americans deserve compensation for the pervasive damage that was done to a whole race of people for the sake of ECONOMICS.
From the Torah: "The opposite of slavish dependence on man, as occurred in Egypt, is not independence, but rather a healthy reliance upon Hashem. It is this reliance that the people will need to cultivate in the Land of Israel:" (Hashem is G-d)
Just ranting while I wait for my radio talk show,
Karla With a K
http://www.karlawithak.net
by Karla With a K (karlawak4 [at] aol.com`)
What's up? No one is bold enough to leave your e-mail address? What's up with that? Let's get some REAL dialogue going on this, not myopic sarcasm by people who don't know anything about the Willie Lynch Economic Plan Find out more about it on my website, www.karlawithak.net, LIBRARY OF LINKS. Karla With a K
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