A Response to the "Open Letter from American Jews to Our Government"

It's heartening to see an ad like that. But we need to keep it up-- pressure on our government and pressure on groups like AIPAC and JINSA to give up Zionism which is blatant racism.

Posted on Wed, Jan. 22, 2003

Billboards give Israel a human dimension
Pro-Israel group hopes to educate Oakland, Berkeley commuters about the two countries' democratic ideals
A BILLBOARD EMPHASIZING similarities between the United States and Israel, funded by the Jewish Federation of the Greater East Bay, hangs this week in the Rockridge BART station and five others.By Rowena Coetsee
CONTRA COSTA TIMES

OAKLAND - A pro-Israel group hopes that Bay Area commuters will take a second look at its message: The United States has more in common with this tiny nation than Americans might think.

A dozen billboards have gone up at six Bay Area Rapid Transit stations in Oakland and Berkeley in recent weeks, each bearing the picture of a smiling girl with the Israeli flag in the background and the Stars and Stripes painted on her cheek.

"America & Israel/Shared Values, Shared Dreams/Peace, Justice and Democracy," the message reads.

The 46-by-60-inch signs invite passers-by to learn more about Israel and the similarities it shares with the U.S. by clicking on the Web site http://www.SharedValuesSharedDreams.org.

Sponsored by the Jewish Federation of the Greater East Bay, the approximately monthlong campaign is an attempt to help Americans learn more about Israel, a key Middle East ally for the United States.

The billboards are at the Rockridge, MacArthur, 12th Street and 19th Street stations in Oakland, as well as at BART's North Berkeley and Berkeley stops.

The Oakland nonprofit distributes the donations it receives to Jewish service groups nationwide and in Israel. It paid BART $300 each to erect the billboards.

BART does not take a position on billboards, including occasional hot-button issues such as abortion and Central American politics, said spokesman Mike Healy.

The idea for the campaign stemmed from a spate of requests for information the Jewish Federation of the Greater East Bay received after the Sept. 11 attacks.

People wanted to learn more about Israel, said spokesman Dan Cohen. Callers even requested maps and a history of the region, he said.

They asked where they could read news coverage by media outlets in the Middle East, he said.

The timing of the campaign has nothing to do with escalating tensions between the U.S. and Iraq, said Riva Gambert, director of federation volunteers known as the Israel Task Force.

"This is not ... at all directed (against) countries in the Middle East," she said.

The Web site attempts to emphasize the similarities between Israel and the United States, drawing parallels between the two countries' democratic ideals.

Both nations began as a refuge for immigrants seeking religious freedom, and both value peace and justice, the Web site contends.

Israel and the U.S. have economic ties and collaborate in such fields as science, health and education.

"We want to show the real Israel, the Israel behind the headlines," Gambert said.

News outlets devote much available time and space on conflict in the Middle East, she said.

Thus, Americans tend to associate Israel with violence, and that might dissuade them from learning more about the country, Gambert said.

Because many people do not understand the historical perspective that gives context for the reasons for the fighting, Americans are more apt to accept the image of Israel that Arab extremists convey, she said.

"It's not being portrayed as a democracy," Gambert said, noting that many people don't realize that Israel's Arab citizens vote and serve in its military.

A dozen Arabs hold seats in Israel's parliament, she said, and national elections are Jan. 28.

Gambert said the billboards have generated hundreds of complimentary calls and e-mails and have drawn no reaction from Muslims.

Of course the idea of a two state solution sounds nice. It sounded great in 1948 to the newly declaired state of Israel. However, the Arabs wanted one state.

The Arab leadership has admitted in public that their eventual goal is one state (look at their school maps) and have the Jews of Israel floating face down in the sea.

How can Israel have peace when the Arabs follow leaders that treat their people with such contempt?

If the Arab decendents return to what they view as their traditional lands does that mean that the the Jews of Israel that were force out of their homes in the different Arab countries in 1948 get their homes back?

How can Israel trust UN peace keepers when the past 50 years are full of incedents of the UN troops just walking away or watching as the Arabs kill Jews? The most famous being in 1967 when Nassar told the UN troops in the Sini to leave just before he was to launch his attack on Israel. The other was less than two years ago when a squad of Indian UN peacekeeps watched a group from Hezbolah grab three Israeli troops from across the boarder. The UN even had a video of the attack.

--"How can Israel have peace when the Arabs follow leaders that treat their people with such contempt?"

How can Arabs have peace when the Israelis follow leaders that treat their people with such contempt?

--"How can Israel trust UN peace keepers when the past 50 years are full of incedents of the UN troops just walking away or watching as the Arabs kill Jews?"

Actually it's been the other way around. UN troops did not interfere when Jewish terrorists massacred 254 people at Deir Yassin in 1948.

In 1967, Nasser placed troops in the Sinai only after Israel placed troops along their own border on the Sinai. Israel attacked and invaded Egyptian territory --not the other way around. In fact, there has never been an Arab attack on Israel. In 1973, Egypt, Syria, and Jordan attacked Israeli positions on territory that was occupied by Israel six years earlier.

Israeli troops were killed inside of Lebanon by Hizbullah which is Lebanon's resistance to Israel's invasion. Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982 killing 20,000 people almost all civilian and remained their up until three years ago till they were finally kicked out forcibly. No -- Israelis do not have a right to forcibly steal other people's land and live on it in peace -- what kind of peace is that for the local people who lived their for thousands of years?

Much of the Jewish community was forced to leave their homes in Arab countries when Mossad bombed their neighborhoods making it look like Arab bombs. The Jewish community in Lebanon refused to leave even with much persuasion on the part of the World Jewish Congress.

But of course, most of this is just backwards thanks to all the media lies that have been internalized by Americans.

Explain how Israel forces Arab totalitarians to oppress their people. How does Israel promote the murder of gays in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere in the Mideast? How does Israel encourage Arab leaders to negate the rights of women? How does Israel force Arab tyrants to deny their people freedom of the press, thought, expression, religion, association...etc? How does it prevent the American left from standing up to this? It doesn't. These things are the result of leaders (supported by the far left) and their choices. These things are why we have terrorists and sychophants of terrorist ideology-- pathetic shadows of human beings who demand that we adopt their point of view. I say fuck them and fuck the cowards of the far left. As long as Palestinians negotiate by blowing themselves up-- they should be treated with the utmost contempt (and will be treated with the utmost contempt). This is why the US supports Israel. If you don't like it, you'll have to either (a) convince the Palestinians to adopt peaceful tactics, (b) convince the majority of Americans to change their perspective and their leaders or (c) shut the fuck up.

--"Of course the idea of a two state solution sounds nice. It sounded great in 1948 to the newly declaired state of Israel. However, the Arabs wanted one state."

Right. They wanted one state where all people live as equals -- just as many Palestinians do today. What this means is that Jews would not have been able to forcibly expel Palestinians from their homes and their homeland but would instead have had to buy any land and homes as anyone in the world would if they wanted to live there. This is what has happened and no apology has ever been made by Zionists for this nor any compensation -- which leads me to believe they have no conscience over what they did and continue to do nor any shame.

A one state solution means more than just a state where Jews have all the rights and if you are not of Jewish descent, you have to forfeit your home and all of your possessions for those who have superior rights under the law. This is called Apartheid. The one-state solution means equality for all. This is also what pro-Israelis refer to as the "destruction of Israel" -- i.e. equal rights for Palestinians is the "destruction of Israel."

It is ridiculous that a people who have no real claim whatsoever to that land have a so-called "right of return" while the original inhabitants who were kicked out can never ever go back to what was once their homes. What's more ridiculous is that I and every other American is forced to pay for it and anyone who objects or dissents is called an "anti-Semite."

And it's not just $500 per Israeli. It's around $1000 per Israeli (around $6 billion a year when all aid is figured in). And if Israel gets its way next year it will be over $2000 per Israeli ($12 billion).

Is there anyone on the left with the courage to speak up against Arab totalitarians?

Just Jews arguing with other Jews on how best to continue to rape the US for Israel's benefit and contnue the genocide. That's has always been the way to sustain Jewish genocide both in Russia, Europe and in the Middle East.

Zionists are so loosing their grip in the face of the truth about the horrors of racist Israel that they have to post three successive pro Israel responses under different nicks.

Nothing will change until there is a world wider embargo against Israel to force Israel to do more than just stop attacking their neighbors. Israel must renounce and eliminate all weapons of mass destruction or be attacked by NATO and UN forces.

Americans like Israel...so, nah, were not going to listen to some totalitarian sympathizer...especially since we don't care for totalitarians (i.e., pick any Arab regime including the Palestinian Authority)...I'm not a Jew by the way, just a guy that despises totalitarian regimes and is annoyed by folks like yourself (intellectual and moral weaklings).

--"The Palestinians who were living in what's now called Israel weren't kicked out, they were asked to leave by the Arab regimes that promised to destroy Israel and kill all the Jews within it."

This is a lie that has been debunked over and over. There were no calls by Arab leaders for Palestinians to leave. In fact many Arab leaders urged the Palestinians to remain where they were but dozens of villages were massacred by Jewish terrorists of which Deir Yassin is only a single but highly documented instance. They had no choice but to leave. The choice was leave or be raped and massacred.

http://www.boycottisraeligoods.org
http://www.divest-from-israel-campaign.org

Check them out! Lots of other links to ways to help topple racist Israel and replace it with a true democracy with equal rights for all, regardless of religion, etc.

Hilton Worldwide Resorts coming to Israel

The Queen of Sheba Hotel in Eilat will operate under the brand.

Hilton Worldwide Resorts is coming to Israel. Hilton Hotels (NYSE:HLT; HLN) will operate the Queen of Sheba Hotel in Eilat under the brand.
The Hilton Worldwide Resorts brand is part of Hilton Hotels’s policy to brand the services it offers. Other brands include “Hilton Breakfast”; “Hilton Meeting” for business conferences; “Hilton Executive Lounge”, for luxury suites; and Hilton Relaxation Rooms”.

Tel Aviv Hilton spokesman Motti Verses said the product and services branding is intended to distinguish Hilton Hotels from among other international hotel chains. Another objective is to brand the chain’s resort business. Hilton’s hotels along the Red Sea (at Eilat, Taba, Nueiba, Dahab and Sharm el-Sheikh) associate Hilton with resorts, whereas elsewhere in the world, Hilton is mainly known as a commercial brand.

Studies by Hilton Hotels among businesspeople showed that consumers did not know what to expect when they reserved vacations at resorts, due to the inconsistency in quality, services and activities between hotels and countries. Branding Hilton Worldwide Resorts will create a resort division that will provide an identical package of services whether the hotel is located in the Maldives, Malta or Eilat.

Published by Globes [online] - http://www.globes.co.il - on January 22, 2003


China, Israel Sign Agreement on Phyto-quarantine Cooperation

A cooperation agreement between China and Israel on phyto-quarantine was signed in Beijing Tuesday.

The agreement will trigger agricultural trade cooperation between the two countries, said Liu Jian, Chinese vice-minister ofagriculture.

He said China and Israel had laid a "very solid foundation" for bilateral cooperation in the agricultural sphere and he expressed the belief that the agreement would further Sino-Israeli cooperation in agricultural trade and technology.

China and Israel have launched a number of cooperation projects on agricultural technology since the forging of their diplomatic ties in 1992, such as the setting-up of a Sino-Israeli Demonstration and Training Center for Agriculture in Drylands in 2002.

Liu Jian and Yehoyada Haim, Israeli ambassador to China, signedthe agreement on behalf of their respective governments.

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200301/22/eng20030122_110552.shtml

India, Israel to jointly market twin-chopper ALH

PTI MONDAY, JANUARY 20, 2003 07:19:12 PM ]

NEW DELHI: India and Israel have decided to jointly market the 14-seater civilian version of the advanced light helicopter (ALH), manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), a senior defence ministry official said on Monday.

Under the Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) reached between HAL and Israel Avionics recently, the two companies would start marketing ALH in "right earnest" at the fourth International Aerospace Exposition to be held in Bangalore from February 5 to February 9.

The ministry has applied for licence for ALH from the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) and this is expected to come through soon, Rakesh Srivastava, Joint Secretary (HAL) in the ministry, said

Srivastava said Iraq, Mauritius and Sri Lanka had evinced interest in acquiring the military version of ALH, which has already been supplied to the Indian Army, Air Force, Navy and Coast Guard.

The military version of ALH, a twin-engined chopper, can be used for heliborne operations, reconnaissance, air observation and anti-ship and anti-submarine operations. It weighs five tonnes and can operate in extreme weather conditions.

While the naval version is equipped with sonars and torpedos, the Army version is fitted with rockets among other weapons.

Briefing reporters, Tapan Ray, Joint Secretary (Exports) in the defence ministry said the exposition would give a window to the world about the achievements of the Indian companies in the public and private sectors in designing, development and production of planes and allied systems.

AS IF anyone wants to go to IsraHell. What a joke.

Ride busses. Eat pizzas. Dance at discos.

The Right To Distort History
by Michael Lopez-Calderon

The Israel-Palestine conundrum already is so saturated with historical misrepresentations, outright falsehoods, and irrational accusations that any further distortion of history would only deepen the public’s ignorance. Two recent Miami Herald "Other Views" columns -- Julian Schvindlerman’s The Right To Destroy Israel (January 4, 2001) and Uri Dromi’s Palestinians Miss Another Opportunity (January 5, 2001) -- reiterate as fact what Israeli scholarship had exposed as myth several years ago. Both Schvindlerman and Dromi rehash the now all-too-familiar myth of the voluntary Palestinian exodus of 1948 from what is today Israel-proper. "They [the Arab nations] exhorted their Arab brethren in Palestine … to abandon their houses to allow the holy warriors to attack," writes Schvindlerman. Dromi states that during the 1948 war, "some 750,000 Palestinians left their homes and became refugees in the Arab countries." Note how in one account, the Palestinians were encouraged to flee – this is the old "radio broadcasts" myth. In the other, the passive voice is employed: the Palestinians simply "left their homes." The historical record can substantiate neither glib account.

Over the past twenty years, Israeli scholars like the late Simha Flapan, Tom Segev, Ilan Pappe, and Benny Morris, have used declassified official Israeli documents to reveal a history quite at odds with earlier accounts. The standard version of history had more to do with the public relations efforts of the Israeli Foreign Ministry’s hasbara (Hebrew for "explanation") campaign than with historical truth. This is not to accuse Israel, or for that matter, Schvindlerman and Dromi, of manufacturing lies, but rather to argue that it does a disservice to historical truth when well-known myths are employed to strengthen legitimate arguments that can stand on their own merit. A majority of contemporary Israeli scholars, media pundits, and even citizens know that the Palestinians did not "voluntarily" leave their homes in 1948. Consider two examples of evidence largely based on recently declassified Israeli governmental and military sources:

Israeli historian Benny Morris, in a January 1986 article for Middle Eastern Studies, cited a 1948 report from the intelligence service of the Israeli Defense Forces entitled The Emigration of the Arabs of Palestine in the Period 1/12/1947 – 1/6/1948. In this report – declassified in 1985 – the IDF listed three primary causes for the departure of 391,000 Palestinians: 1) "Direct, hostile Jewish operations against Arab settlements"; 2) "The effect of our hostile operations on nearby settlements … especially the fall of large neighboring centers"; 3) "Operations of the dissidents." The "dissidents" were the violent Zionist organizations, the LEHI, Stern Gang, and Urgun. Their "operations" consisted of a number of atrocities against Palestinian villagers, with the massacre at Deir Yassin being the most notorious. These findings became the basis for Morris’s seminal work, The Birth of The Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949 (Cambridge, 1987). Morris made it clear that a combination of worsening circumstances, military defeats, and physical threats generated the bulk of the Palestinian flight. Nowhere does he cite evidence for the mythological "broadcasts" because such evidence simply does not exist.

Another devastating criticism of the Arab radio broadcasts that allegedly goaded Palestinian flight is found in Christopher Hitchens’ essay, "Broadcasts," in Edward Said and Christopher Hitchens, Blaming The Victims (Verso, 1988). Hitchens cited official IDF reports, declassified in 1985, that indeed documented Arab broadcasts, but with an interesting twist: the radio broadcasts exhorted Palestinians to remain in their homes and villages, in part because the invading Arab armies would otherwise be impeded by refugee-clogged roads. The BBC, along with an American listening post, monitored all Middle East broadcasts throughout 1948, Hitchens reported. Not one of these broadcasts ever told Palestinians to flee. Even Israeli broadcasts in Hebrew, and several Jewish newspapers at the time, reported the Arab broadcasts that ordered Palestinians to remain where they were.

Historians believe that it takes a generation before popular historical myths give way to new discoveries and arguments in scholarship. In the case of the "radio broadcasts" myth, the Israeli public has accepted the truth far more readily than the American. Schvindlerman and Dromi know full well that the discredited explanation for the Palestinian flight of 1948 can only fly in America, where history amnesia and a time and spatial distance from Middle Eastern realities assure the continued success of such distortions of history.

Mr. Michael Lopez-Calderon taught High School Social Studies in Miami, Florida for seven years until March 2, 2001, when he was asked to leave the Jewish Day school where he had taught for the past five years. Michael was asked to leave for having posted pro-Palestinian comments on Palestine Media Watch's subscriber-only e-mail. He remains an activist in the Miami area.

A comment by "Tourism Bureau" was hidden because it contained a racist slur.

Zionists are "welcome" in IsraHell. They should all go there and experience the fear that comes with doing something bad like ethnic cleansing and land stealing and having to look over your shoulder. Fuck you, Zionists! Go to IsraHell! And don't come back!

Welcome to the hellish world of Islam, the filthy faith - legalized rape, murder and torture. Leftists admire Islam because they wish that they too can kill their enemies and critics.

Gunmen kill writer: A strict Islamic code applies in the author's province

Paul Anderson
BBC correspondent in Islamabad

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2685151.stm

Police in northern Pakistan say unidentified attackers have shot dead a writer whose work was viewed as critical of fundamentalist Islam. The 40-year-old writer, Fazal Wahab, was shot at a local shop.

Fatwas, or religious edicts, declaring his work un-Islamic had been issued by senior clerical figures after the publication of two books challenging the role of mullahs. Police say three or four gunmen burst into the shop in the town of Mingora, in North-West Frontier Province, where Mr Wahab was sitting.

The gunmen opened fire indiscriminately, killing Mr Wahab and the shop owner on the spot. The attack will be a test of the mullahs' power. A teenage shop assistant died on his way to hospital. Two of Mr Wahab's books were critical of the Taleban, the role of the mullahs and Osama bin Laden.

Mr Wahab, who was married with five children, called a press conference last month to say he was receiving death threats. He was not well-known nationally, but locally was engaged in a hostile debate with Islamic leaders through his writings.

After provincial and national elections last year, North-West Frontier Province came under the control of an alliance of religious parties. The provincial government has begun imposing strict interpretations of the Islamic code - much as the Taleban did in Afghanistan - on dress, women's freedom of movement and public entertainment.

"Hilton Worldwide Resorts coming to Israel "

Thanks for that info - I'll send a mass email out telling everyone I know to boycott and pass it on.

Has anyone alerted BIG?

Make sure you boycott Intel and AMD also!!!

Fact: Israel instigated and launched the war in 6 day war.

Only 2 of the divisions that Eqypt sent to the Sinai were combat ready, the others were pathetic in terms of fighting ability - you think Israel DIDN'T know this? The prime minister at the time admitted this...

"I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent to The Sinai would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive war. He knew it and we knew it."
-Yitzhak Rabin, Le Monde, 2/28/68


And we also have the great Israeli war hero Moshe Dayan to gain some insight into how the extremists of Israel have historically instigated the violence that they then use to justify their brutality. It is the zionist way - stir up trouble and take advantage of it. To continue to use these old lies to justify the current hatered and violence is just plain stupid. Consider his own words...

"Never mind that [when asked that Syrians initiated the war from the Golan Heights]. After all, I know how at least 80 percent of the clashes there started. In my opinion, more than 80 percent, but let's talk about 80 percent. It went this way: We would send a tractor to plow someplace where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and new in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance farther, until in the end Syrians would get annoyed and shoot. And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was. I did that, and Laskov and Chara [Zvi Tsur, Rabin's predecessor as chief of staff] did that, Yitzhak did that, but it seems to me that the person who most enjoyed these games was Dado [David Elzar, OC Northern Command, 1964-69]."
- Moshe Dayan, Iron Wall, p. 236-237


>The Arab leadership has admitted in public that their eventual goal is one state (look at their school maps) and have the Jews of Israel floating face down in the sea.

Uh-huh. and this is different from the Zionists... how???

"a new State of Israel with broad frontiers, strong and solid, with the authority of the Israel Government extending from the Jordan [river] to the Suez Canal."
- Moshe Dayan, Iron Wall, p. 316 (April 1973 from the peaks of Massada - proclaiming his vision)


Too many people only seem to know the lies that the Zionists have spread throughout the world. Too many people are unwilling to look for the truth for themselves. They accept what their TVs tell them without question. This naivety will be their downfall - and sadly, their willful ignorance will take most of us down with them.

Israel returned the Sinai to Egypt in exchange for peace. Israel negotiated to give the West Bank and Gaza to the Palestinians (it was never there's to begin with) in exchange for peace but Arafat though he could gain more fighting. He made a mistake - Israel fought back and elected a government that would stand up to terror. Had Arafat taken the route of peace he would now be the leader of a sovereign state - instead he is surrounded by tanks. Too fucking bad.

>Let me get this straight…

Ok. Maybe I can help.


>1967: The military buildup along Israel’s borders by Jordan, Syria and Egypt was a training exercise.

No. It was in direct response to Israel's belligerence. As the Israelis knew, the Arab leaders had to step up, or loose face; this was used to Israel's advantage. Many times.


>They weren’t planning to attack.

Correct.


>And all that saber-rattling, warmongering and all those anti-Israel, anti-Jewish speeches were just comedy routines – they weren’t meant to be taken seriously.

No, they were serious, but there was little chance that they had the will or ability to stand behind them at that time. They wanted to - but they just didn't have the military strength to do it, which the Israeli's knew at the time. Knowing the Arabs weren't about to start a war, Israel launched it themselves; at first claiming that the Arabs had started it, but changing their story when they saw that the truth was already out there.


>1973: It must’ve been an evil Israeli plot to start another war on their holiest, most religious day of the year, when many of them would be weak from fasting. Wow, that’s a really clever way to avert responsibility.

A pathetic attempt at revenge by the Arabs. You can only piss on a man's shoes for so long before he will take a swing at you, and the Israelis were willing to use this to their advantage. But once again, the Arabs just didn't have the military strength to equal their anger, and they were beat down.


>Lebanon: Of course, the soldiers that were kidnapped three years ago were in Lebanese territory....

No response to this sad attempt at justification.


>Mossad: For a newly born country on a shoestring budget, Israel sure had some excellent covert ops in 1948.

Yes - they did. Stern Gang ring a bell son? Some of these people were _seriously_ committed to their cause, and used all of their abilities to achieve their goals. If it weren't for their brutality - and all that blood on their hands, the first generation of Israelis were quite impressive. However, I simply cannot respect people that would so quickly forget what it was like to be the subject of such racial intolerance.

>Yeah, that’s it… the Mossad was responsible for all those pogroms… They just made it look like Arab perpetrators.

No. Some of them - yes, but not all. Some were because the Zionists were demanding that the Arabs let the jews go - as if they were prisoners or something. And in some cases, it was Arab bigotry and violence that led to the violence and expulsions. Did you perhaps think all of this history was black and white?


>You know what? I’m certain that all that land and all those personal belongings that were confiscated from departing Jews was just a big hoax. I’m sure it was all returned after each of the dictators running these countries declared it was all just a big April Fool’s joke.

Now you are just being an ass.


>All these years, I must have been reading the wrong history books and listening to the wrong personal accounts.

Seems like it. You don't seem to have a firm grasp of the various perspectives of what went on back then.

>It’s all the media’s fault, just like everything else, from global warming to teenage zits. Now if I could just get my hands on some of your sources… I just hope that Amazon.com’s fiction department is well stocked enough…

Do you think belligerent sarcasm makes you look like anything more than an ignorant child? If so - you are wrong once again. Feel free to ask any questions if you would like to have any more of the mis-information you seem to have been raised on cleared up. If I can't find an answer - I can at least promise I won't hide behind sarcasm.

Thanks for responding to Saeel.

What you may not have noticed, however, is that Saeel is a Zionist like yourself.

Oh well, better luck next time.

After reading your responses, I obviously made a mistake. Sorry about that lotera. It's late now and I am obviously not too clear-headed....

Sorry about that misunderstanding above. I took a quick look and read something you were quoting and jumped to a conclusion -- embarrassing...

Anyway, having read your posts, you seem to be one of the more educated on this subject. Sadly there aren't that many people who can speak from the hip about the actual history of what's gone on there (with the exception of spewing Israel's arguments which we all know by heart).

Could you let me know some of the sources you've used.

>The Palestinians who were living in what's now called Israel weren't kicked out, they were asked to leave by the Arab regimes that promised to destroy Israel and kill all the Jews within it. They were duped into believing that if they just stepped aside to let Syria, Egypt and Jordan do the job, they'd all get new villas when they returned.

Lies - that is all you seem to know. Care to cite YOUR sources their son? Let me guess - The Jewish Virtual Library?

How do you explain the Deir Yassin Massacre?
How do you explain the Zionist attacks in Al-sheikh and Hwasa villages January 1, 1948?
How do you explain the killings in Nasser El-Din on April 13, 1948?
or the killings in Biet Daris village in May 21, 1948?
Do you deny that Irgun gangs detonated two cars at Haifa Market in July 1948?
What about the ~250 Palestinians that were killed in the Church and the Mosque of the town of Allud July 11, 1948.

etc. etc. etc.

You spread lies - the only question is: do you do it knowingly? Are you some Mossad intern, instructed to spread lies across the web? Or do you really believe that the Israelis are always right, and Arabs are always wrong?

>The Palestinians who were living in what's now called Israel weren't kicked out, they were asked to leave by the Arab regimes that promised to destroy Israel and kill all the Jews within it. They were duped into believing that if they just stepped aside to let Syria, Egypt and Jordan do the job, they'd all get new villas when they returned.
-from Saeel

This was thoroughly debunked by even Israeli historians. See the article above entitled "The Right To Distort History."

-----------------------------------

>Yeah, that’s it… the Mossad was responsible for all those pogroms… They just made it look like Arab perpetrators.

As far as the flight of Jews from Arab countries is concerned, Israel used two methods to get people to leave and move to Israel where they could be used as laborers. 1. The World Zionist Organization tried to convince Jewish Arabs to go to Israel because it was a much richer country and that they would have much better lives there, 2. When that didn't work they resorted to bombing Jewish neighborhoods, making it look like Arabs, and conspiring with Arab governments to make the lives of Jews in those countries much more difficult. This has been documented by Naeim Giladi who is of Jewish descent and an Iraqi-American (former Israeli).

Despite considerable effort, representatives of the World Zionist Organization were unable to convince the Jews of West Beirut to immigrate to Israel. "'Why should we leave,' they asked? Here are our houses and our friends."' (Yediot Ahronot 7-19-82)
-Noam Chomsky "The Fateful Triangle"

Lebanese Jewish leader grateful to Arafat and rejects Israeli claims that Lebanese Jewish community is threatened (they were probably far mor under threat from Israel's random bombardment of Beirut in which Israel destroyed Beirut's only Synagogue.)

The following is from Edward C. Corrigan http://www.mepc.org/public_asp/journal/9012_corrigan.asp

"Two little-known facts are that the PLO helped protect the Beirut Jewish community (and also the American embassy) during the Lebanese Civil War, and it was the Israelis who destroyed their synagogue during the siege of Beirtut. Nor has it been widely publicized that nine Palestinian Jews were among the victims of the Sabra and Shatila massacre."
-Edward C. Corrigan
http://www.mepc.org/public_asp/journal/9012_corrigan.asp

The leader of the Lebanese Jewish community is reported to have said: "The Lebanese Jews are grateful to Mr. Arafat. We have no need of any outside protection because no one has touched a hair on our heads. We reject Israeli reports that the community is in any danger. We want no outside protectors, Israeli or otherwise. We simply plan to go on living as we always have, as Lebanese." Quoted in Lilienthal, The Zionist Connection II, p. 782. ( http://www.alfredlilienthal.com/zionist_connection.htm ) Also see Paul Martin, "Palestinians send food to Jews besieged in Beirut synagogue," The Times (London), November 4, 1975, p. A5. See also "PLO guarded our embassy U.S. admits," Toronto Star, May 16, 1985, p. A12.

See this link for the details:
http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/12/1548272_comment.php

>What you may not have noticed, however, is that Saeel is a Zionist like yourself.

I must admit, that confused me for a minute - till I scrolled down. *grin*


>Could you let me know some of the sources you've used.

I highly recommend: "The Iron Wall: Israel and the Arab World" by Avi Shlaim

I wouldn't say it is 100% factual, but it seems fairly objective.

-or-

"The War for Palestine" by Eugene L. Rogan - a collection of different perspectives.

In this deeply emotional conflict both sides have done horrible things - neither side is 'innocent', but IMO the Zionists are the true source of all the violence we see today.

--"In this deeply emotional conflict both sides have done horrible things - neither side is 'innocent', but IMO the Zionists are the true source of all the violence we see today."

I wholeheartedly agree. I think they also hold the key to peace as they are the major party dragging there feet at this point. They have made it abundantly clear that they will not be willing to make peace so long as they have hold the power (provided to them by us taxpayers) to steal more Palestinian land...

We must not allow the racist ideology of Zionism to get away with controlling our foreign policy in the Middle East or anywhere else for that matter. We must speak out and demand US and UN intervention in Israel-Palestine, and get a regime change there, so that that it's a true democracy with equal rights for all regardless of religion, etc.

'Palestine' for Dummies

http://www.NewsAndOpinion.com | I keep a special notebook handy whenever I watch a "Palestinian" spokesperson or leader or advocate speaking or interviewed on C-Span, the evening news or in newsprint. It helps me keep track of many of their inanities, but the one that is most amusing is the recurring line (which must be featured in their spin tutorials) that "we are the only occupied people in the world."

The great poobah Arafat himself has stated this claim in almost every recent interview--including chats with reporters who should know better like Bob Simon and Dan Rather. Alas, in each case, the script is the same. A Palestinian foghorn drops the line, and I lean forward hoping for an honest, studied-up member of our free press to ask: "But what about the Tibetans or the Kurds or the…"

I'm still waiting. As far I can tell no journalist has ever informed the Palestinians (or the Americans) that the former are but only one folk in a long and mottled line of national, ethnic, regional, religious and political groups who, if they got their wishes and fulfilled their dreams, would be sitting members of the United Nations.

Which leads to a follow-up question, also never asked by the hard-hitting foreign correspondents and news anchors: why exactly do the Palestinians deserve a state ahead of all those others? After all, American and Russian presidents, leaders of Europe, everyone spends late nights worrying about how to give the Palestinians what they want. Who does that for the separatist Christian Blacks of Sudan--against whom oil money has financed a Muslim-executed genocide of several million in the last few decades?

We might ask more pointedly why should the Palestinians, who have no separate religion, culture, history, national identity, ethnicity, or language from other Arabs be given a homeland ahead of say, the Kurds (an independent ethnic nation for thousands of years…or for that matter many American aboriginal peoples. Likewise, David Yeagley, a professor who teaches at the University of Oklahoma and is a descendent of the Commanche war-chief Bad Eagle, commented to me, "My people existed as a separate nation before the Ottomans invaded Europe...Why aren't we getting airplay for a homeland while some thug in Jenin is a media-darling?"

The answer is a brutal one: money talks and as Allan Dershowitz points out in his new book "terrorism works." The Palestinians are unique among the world's nation wannabes in several ways. First, they have the backing of most of the world's oil wealth and thus the industrial nations that kowtow in lust of it. The Gulf Caliphs caught on long ago that in order to preserve their own corrupt, profligate, illegal regimes they needed some perennial distraction for their ignorant masses--why not the Jews?

Nobody has ever been so calculatingly cruel before, mind you. My grandfather, for example, a Greek Christian, fought in a war with Turkey in the early Twenties. The Greeks lost the war and Turkey expelled 3,000,000 ethnic Greeks (whose ancestors had lived there since the Bronze Age). Greece, an impoverished country, did not torture their compatriots by keeping them in refugee camps: they absorbed them, the only humanitarian option possible for a humane people.

Likewise, ethnic Germans illegally expelled from Poland and the eastern territories at the end of World War II were taken in by West Germany as brothers and citizens. The iron curtain was not lined with fetid camps.

Both sets of refugees weren't happy about their fate, but when was the last time you heard about a former Ost-German hijacking a Russian plane or a displaced Ionian Greek blowing up an Ankara pizza shop?

No, the Palestinians were the best investment ever made by the Oil Sheiks and it has paid off spectacularly. (But not for the Arab people, of course. A recent report by the U.N. found that the total GDP [including oil] of the Arab world does not exceed that of Spain).

Another reason the Palestinians are on the front-burner is violence. I recall during the Gulf war a Kurdish spokesperson was asked why the world didn't concern itself with the national hopes of his people. His answer was brutally cynical and absolutely correct: "We don't commit terrorism against Europeans." The Palestinians have ignited outrage after outrage, and each time the response of the jelly-kneed world politicians is to pay more attention to them and work harder to help them with cash and diplomatic initiatives. The bloodthirsty wheel gets the grease.

Thus, terrorism pays off and is richly rewarded: His Holiness the Dalai Lama, in contrast, will die in exile because his philosophy does not allow him to consider exponential violence.

Finally, the Palestinians are an accessible cause celebre of the Left. No big deal to have your crumpets with your artsy pals in a London teahouse in the morning and then fly down for the afternoon to "express solidarity" with Arafat's brownshirts. Dynamite-throwing Palestinians are chic; Tibetan orphans are not. When was the last time you saw any "human rights" activists rush to the southern Sudan to be human shields between black Christian babies and a Muslim Sudanese army aerial bombardment?

So this journalism professor and historian sits and waits for a brave journalist to ask an obvious, fact-driven question. And I fantasize that perhaps some foolhardy but honest --apparently none exist -- U.N. administrator will announce that "Frankly, there are hundreds of peoples more deserving of a homeland and we should be helping them and ignoring the Palestinians…"

Zero tolerance for Zionists! Out, Out, Zionists! Zionism Out of US politics and policies! Zionism Out of Indymedia!

The bad zionist is hurting my feelings by telling the truth.

zero tolerance for Zionism in America!

Hey, isn't it time for Nessie to resurface and blame the previous posts on "roorback" again?

@%<

As appalling as Nessie's hypocrisy can be, and as illuminating as his defense of Multinym's attack on the Jews of Biblical (i.e wa-a-a-ay pre-Zionist) times was, I still don't think he's Radio Islam material. _Those_ sorts of folks are usually at IMC-Jerusalem.

@%<

I saw it myself - in the context of posting some anti-zionist screed he linked to Radio Islam. But after I mentioned it he changed his post. Notice how he never denies it, but always insists on the URL being posted. Very evil.

Gosh, gee, golly, and people talk about the Zionist conspiracy theory! As if there's the slightest bit of credibility to that!

"Very evil."

Or else he just didn't look into the site closely enough to see what he'd been fooled into linking to, and when he found out he changed his post, out of pure decency. He's been more than clear in his repudiation of anything having to do with Holocaust denial; the problem is that, now that Holocaust denial is pretty much acknowledged as dead, those who try to make their living off selling antisemitic materials are increasingly restyling themselves as "anti-Zionists" and absolving themselves of any taint of antisemitism -- even though they continue to promulgate the usual antisemitic stereotypes, but this time with a wink. So SF Indymedia gets posts saying "I think that the _Protocols_ is pretty much right on target describing the, uh, Zionists," and it's amazing how some folks won't bat an eye at that, and if I get offended by it, well, it's just my fault for being a Jew, uh, Zionist.

At any rate, sure, Nessie's history is all ass-backwards, but not so ass-backwards that he's going to embrace Holocaust denial.

@%<

All Zionists are Jews, are they not? Altho some Jews are not Zionists (however not that many).

I'm looking for a nice Jewish professor or doctor like you! Someone who thinks just like me! I simply can't understand how anyone can possibly criticize Israel and not be an anti-Semite! How could there possibly be any correlation between the rise in anti-Semitism and the war that some of these crazy activists call an "ethnic cleansing campaign" that Israel is committing against the Palestinians? I'm sure no one could actually really care about the Palestinian people! No, that could not possibly be what motivates American pro-Palestinian activists! It's quite clear to me that the only possible reason that people criticize Zionists is because there must be some kind of an anti-Semite gene in goyim. That's the only thing that I can imagine. Really, to think that an average American could really, actually care about what happens to Palestinians, so what if their tax dollars are paying for Israel's defending itself with the 4th largest army against the practically penniless Palestinians. The poor peasants! I really feel for them, but whatever! So they have to suffer a little. Oy! Let them eat Matzoh Balls!

Isn't it creepy when men use girls names on the internet??

Oy vay! Iv'e been discovered!!!

Did anyone notice how Yuck (aka gehrig) did not dispute the racist views of his beloved-to-be Miriam? My, wouldn't they make a FINE (Fein) couple?

"Did anyone notice how Yuck (aka gehrig)"

Ha!

Just because _you_ are so intellectually bankrupt that you have to use everything in the world but your own name to sign your posts, that doesn't mean it's true of everyone.

_Every post_ I have ever made to _any_ IMC, I have signed with my own name, which is Gehrig.

So sorry if it bothers you to encounter someone with the backbone to, you know, _sign_ his own posts. Now, hadn't you better go run and play on IMC-Jerusalem, where multinym identity-game shit like yours is the norm rather than the exception?

@%<

In the summer of 1997, a young Israeli art student named Tatiana Susskin drew a caricature portraying the Prophet Mohammed as a pig and tacked up copies of it on Arab storefronts in Hebron. She could hardly have devised a more inflammatory insult. The crude leaflets provoked riots and calls for vengeance, not only in Hebron but in much of the Muslim world.

Far from defending Susskin, leading Israelis rushed to condemn her. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu phoned the Arab mayor of Hebron ''to express not only my personal revulsion, but the revulsion of the entire people of Israel ...against this frontal attack on one of the world's great religions.'' One of the country's two chief rabbis went to Hebron to apologize in person to the city's senior Muslim cleric.

Susskin was arrested by the Israeli authorities, put on trial, and convicted in Jerusalem District Court of (among other charges) committing a racist act, attempted vandalism, and attempting to give religious offense. Judge Zvi Segal sentenced her to two years in prison, calling her deed a ''revolting, degenerate act which offended the feelings of Moslems in Israel and the entire world.'' Her appeal was rejected and she spent 16 months behind bars before being released on parole.

For Americans used to the protection of the Bill of Rights, so ferocious a reaction to some juvenile graffiti is unthinkable. But while Israel is not bound by the First Amendment, it is bound by the terms of its accords with the Palestinian Authority. Article XXII of the 1995 Oslo 2 agreement, for example, obliges the parties to ''abstain from incitement, including hostile propaganda, against each other'' and to ''take legal measures to prevent such incitement by any organizations, groups, or individuals within their jurisdiction.''

As the Susskin affair suggests, Israel has been vigilant in suppressing and punishing such incitement. Have the Palestinians?

Consider the case of Ikrama Sabri. In July 1997, just a few days after Susskin's leaflets went up in Hebron, Sabri called openly for violence against Israeli Jews--''colonialist settlers who are sons of monkeys and pigs.'' He beseeched Allah to ''take revenge'' on them (and, for good measure, to ''destroy America, for she is ruled by Zionist Jews'').

Unlike Susskin, a lone activist with no public platform or official position, Sabri is a Palestinian of considerable influence: He is the mufti of Jerusalem, chosen by Yasser Arafat to be the city's senior Islamic religious figure. His sermons are attended by thousands of worshipers and broadcast on Palestinian radio. There can hardly be any doubt about the Palestinian Authority's obligation to silence Sabri's hateful rhetoric.

But Sabri was not silenced in the summer of 1997. Nor was he silenced the following March, when he praised suicide bombings as ''a response to the occupation'' and a ''legitimate'' means of confronting Israel. Nor was he silenced--let alone prosecuted and imprisoned--in March 2000, when he mocked Jewish deaths in the Holocaust. ''Six million Jews dead? No way, they were much fewer,'' Sabri sneered. ''Let's stop with this fairy tale.''

Last summer, the mufti whipped up a frenzy over the prospect of Jews praying on the Temple Mount. Any ''Jewish prayer,'' he threatened, would mean ''massacres the magnitude of which only Allah knows ... massacres and rivers of blood.'' The reaction of the Palestinian Authority? It published Sabri's words in Al Hayat Al Jadidah, the official Palestinian newspaper.

His vitriol has been unending. ''I am filled with rage toward the Jews,'' he spat in October. ''They are the most cowardly creatures Allah ever created.'' In June came another paean to suicide bombers: ''Oh, Muslims,'' he preached, ''attack and you will gain one of two blessings: either victory or martyrdom.... The Muslim loves death and martyrdom.'' One week later, an Arab bomber murdered 21 young Israelis outside a disco in Tel Aviv.

The difference between Israel's treatment of Susskin and the Palestinian Authority's treatment of Sabri is glaring but unsurprising. After all, there is virtually no provision of the peace accords that the Palestinians have not violated; it hardly comes as news that their promise to crack down on incitement has not been kept either.

No, the key point is this: Susskin was an exception, Sabri is the rule. The mufti's blind hatred of Jews is echoed over and over, in every Palestinian venue and medium. Turn on the TV--a sheik offers ''blessings to whoever saved a bullet to put in a Jew's head.'' Open the mail--a letter from Arafat praises the Tel Aviv disco terrorist as a ''model of manhood and sacrifice.'' Send a child to one of the Palestinian Authority's summer camps and he learns that murdering Jews will assure him a place in heaven. Click on the web site of Arafat's PLO faction (http://www.fateh.net) and read how the killing must continue until ''the Zionist state is demolished.''

Daily, hourly, constantly, Palestinians are exhorted to loathe Jews and to glorify those who kill them. Nine years into the ''peace process,'' their hatred is greater than ever. Is it any wonder the victims keep dying?

The reason you don't see the posts you claim you don't see is because you don't want to see them, Saeel, or is it Saul?

Just like how all Zionists simply can't believe they are racists, yes racists! YOU! YOU are a RACIST!

Face it! ALL ZIONISTS ARE RACISTS! Why? Well, I think ethnically cleansing Palestine to make a Jewish supremacist state qualifies. But of course, you don't see it that way, don't you Seeal, or is it Saul? Irving? Gehrig?

Let them eat Matzo Balls!

--"I've seen many derogatory terms and stereotypes used against Jews here but I notice that there aren't any posts by the Arab equivalent of "Miriam Horowitz"."

There are a bunch of pro-Israelis who do much worse than that (Khalifornian, Zionists posing as Arabs and denying the Holocaust, etc). But I suppose it doesn't bother Saeel because he agrees with racism towards Arabs. Zionists are racists and just like the racists in the South in the Sixties, THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW IT.

>and I lean forward hoping for an honest, studied-up member of our free press to ask

Yeah - your first mistake is thinking that we have a free press; we do not. :-) It is so rare to see anyone in the press ask the hard questions when any of these 'leaders' spread their bullshit. As a journalism professor, you must be aware of this. Even Dan Rather has said that he is afraid to say what he really feels. The corporations own us and contro almost everything that we see and hear - as TWA 800 clearly showed.

Beyond that, while you have some good and interesting points in your well written post, I think your central arguement is flawed - it is not simply oil money that has caused the level of atrocities we see today - it is a combination of factors. The violence that the Jews suffered at the hands of the Nazis helped drive the Zionists to the levels of violence they used against the Palestinians, who in turn carry that violence onward, much like beaten and abused children will often grow up to abuse their own children. The circle of life; the circle of hate. It is the stirring up of violence that has happend by those seeking power on both sides. It is the ongoing effort by the Zionists to take more and more and more. It is the ongoing attempt by Islamics to use the situation to incite more violence. Many factors contribute.

But, why do the palestinians deserve special attention? I agree that it is in large part due to the violence, but for me at least, the fact that I am paying to have this brutality done in my name is what brings it to the front of the list - that combined with the ongoing nature of the situation. While it is true that others have (and do) face US sponsored terror and violence, no where is it so extensive as in Palestine. The US pumps at least $10 billion a year into Israel, and they in turn use most of that money to commit atrocity after atrocity - always pretending to be the innocent victims. I in no way support the Arab sponsoring of terror on the other side, and I am OUTRAGED at those that manipulate the anger of the youth there to create suicide bombers. Just as I am outraged at the manipulation that has turned many in the IDF to little more than brutal thugs.

It would be interesting to track, year by year, the money that has been pumped in by outsiders over the years since 1968. Gut instinct tells me US funding has ALWAYS been far above anything sent in from anywhere else.


>No big deal to have your crumpets with your artsy pals in a London teahouse in the morning and then fly down for the afternoon to "express solidarity" with Arafat's brownshirts.

Your bias is shows most clearly here, but it is lacved throughout. You are not a truth monger - you carry your own grudge in what you say.

>As the Susskin affair suggests, Israel has been vigilant in suppressing and punishing such incitement.

One incident does not balance out all the children that have been killed with a single shot to the head. It does not balance out the multitude of UN resolutions that Israel is in violation of. It does not balance out the ongoing atrocities that the IDF commits.

>''Six million Jews dead? No way, they were much fewer,'' Sabri sneered. ''Let's stop with this fairy tale.''

While I agree that Sabri is yet another hate filled wanker stirring up trouble - in this I believe he is technically correct. The central evidence that is used to arrive at the 6 million figure is from a single individual that had good reason to fudge the numbers, and other evidence contradicts what he entered in his logs - though of course it is not like it would have been less evil if it was only 5 million. And just for consideration - how many Russians died in WWII? How many Romany and Gypsies died in the camps? I realize this sounds heartless, but after 60 years of having '6 million killed' used as a shield to hide behind, I think it is time to give it a rest and move on, especially in consideration of how similar Israeli actions are to what the Nazis did up until '41.

And lets not forget, that this anger and hatred is in REACTION to what Israel has done - stop pretending it is not. The Israelis have created this with their own actions and in-action. How many years have Israelis held the power of life, death and daily existence over the Palestinians?

If I moved into your house, locked you in a closet for 5 years, killed your pets and controlled when and how you ate - you think you would come out ready to hug me? Get a grip, Israel needs to face the reality of what has been done if they want ANY hope of resolving this without completing their transformation into something as bad as the Nazis.

>Daily, hourly, constantly, Palestinians are exhorted to loathe Jews and to glorify those who kill them.

Yeah, and having stared into the hate filled face of a screaming zionist as spittle and anger flew from his mouth, I can assure you that Israelis are being raised to hate as well. It amazes me that these extremists cannot see the illogical beliefs that they have been raised on. Stop pretending this is all one sided - it ain't.

That's one thing I cannot understand. Knowing what they have done to the Palestinians, what do the Israelis expect the Palestinians to feel towards them. Heck, what do the Israelis feel towards the Palestinians. It's as though Israelis have a right to hate and abuse them but if a Palestinian hates them back for what they did, then that somehow cannot be understood -- all the while we are supposed to believe that the Israelis own real racist hatred towards Palestinians either is not there or is somehow irrelevant or forgivable because Jews had suffered in the past. They are the biggest hypocrites in the world.

>Let’s assume that miraculously, you’ve just convinced me and I agree with everything in your reply.

I don't believe that for a second. :-)


>What was Arafat’s reasoning at Camp David and later at Taba? Even if we’re generous in our interpretation of his rejecting Barak’s offer, why did he not make a counter offer?

He was a fool. I understand why he acted as he did; the 'generous' offer was not all we have been told - the cantons taht would have been created were offensive, cut off from direct access to the Arab world, dependant on the Israelis for water, living literally with the Israelis looking down on them. It was an offer made by those that held most of the cards, and of course it was neither fair nor generous - but - it was MUCH better then nothing. And now in retrospect, it looks like it may have been the last best chance to get at least something better than what they had.


>How do you explain the fact that official PA mouthpieces continue to extol child “martyrdom” to this day, going so far as recently naming every team in an entire kids' football tournament after various suicide bombers? How can you justify this type of exploitation?

Justify? no - I don't. I do understand how it happens, and why. Those that call on others to do commit these crimes do so to increase their own power, and they use the pain and grief of those that have lost family and friends to Israeli bullets to manipulate young fools into blowing themselves up. These bombers also reflect a desperation that is fed by a generation that has known nothing but living under the IDFs thumb.


>What about the never-to-be seen Palestinian election that’s been promised for so long? Will Arafat continue to blame Israel for the delays while he clings to power? If he’s so progressive, why does he need to intimidate even would-be political opponents?

As I recall, several of the potential candidates were assasinated by Israel, but I haven't paid much attention to this aspect. I dont think that much of Arafat, so I cannot defend what he does or why he does it. I really don't give a shit about him - I care about all the normal folks that get killed in the cross fire - on both sides. I hold more blame for the Israelis, as they are the ones with the power to stop this. How much you wanna bet that the terms of the Camp David Accords would be agreed if they were offered again?

And please do not forget Sharon - how can you disparage Arafat while ignoring the crimes of Sharon? This is another indication of your own blindness.


>Why hasn’t Arafat, estimated to have amassed (embezzled) a personal wealth of $3.1 billion,

I simply do not believe this. I would need to get a hint of where this rumor comes from so I could track it down.


> How is it that every successful business in the Palestinian territories has been intimidated and driven out in order to be replaced by one that is run by the PA or one of its “friends”?

Not true.


>Why are Arafat’s wife and daughter kept safely out of harm’s way in France while the rest of the Palestinian population is so conveniently manipulated and used as “martyrs”?

Because they can be. How has George W Bush failed at everything he has ever done yet still be elected president? Power and money buy priveledge.

Essentially, it is the same dynamic that occured in prison camps in WWII. Read 'King Rat' and you will gain some insight into why Arafat is in power, why the worst of them gain teh most power, and why the occupation is, in fact, the root cause of ALL of this.

>What would it look like if such a society were to govern an entire country?

If they were simply given their own country, and let loose - it would be horrible for a long time. Like anyone that has suffered great trauma, they would need help and guidance so they don't just continue the cycles of violence in new ways.


>Ok, I admit it. I'm a Mossad agent.

You laugh becasue you don't know some of the bizarre shit the Mossad does. I am fairly certain that part of Mossad training is to fk around in mediums like this so as to become proficient in manipulation with words. By way of deception and all that. You underestimate the effect of a few words in the right places; the Mossad does not.


>Your personal attacks and racist comments just prove what I've said many times: The pro-Palestinian side of this debate seems to be harbouring a whole lot of blind, racist hatred that it can barely contain.

Bullshit. Both sides have many that hold alot of hatred (considering all the killing and incredible disrespect both sides are guilty of, this is no surprise), yet you seem to suggest it is only the 'other' side. Can you not see how biased that is? Have you never watched a group of Zionists shout down those that disagree with them? It is an ugly ugly thing to see blind rage like that - as ugly as seeing religous leaders praise those that kill women and children with suicide bombs.


>but I notice that there aren't any posts by the Arab equivalent of "Miriam Horowitz".

I am not really sure what you mean, but 'Miriam' is most likely some bored kid, and the comments 'she' has made so far should just be ignored IMO.

A comment by "but surely" was hidden because it spoke kindly of Hitler policy towards Jews. No, you can't do that here.

YOU are a myths spreading hasbara myths. Bye bye! Get lost!

--"Palestinians have adopted suicide bombing as a strategic choice, not out of desperation. This threatens all civilization because if suicide bombing is allowed to work in Israel, then, like hijacking and airplane bombing, it will be copied and will eventually lead to a bomber strapped with a nuclear device threatening entire nations. That is why the whole world must see this Palestinian suicide strategy defeated."

Israelis have adopted ethnic cleansing as a strategic choice, not out of desperation. This threatens all civilization because if ethnic cleansing is allowed to work in Palestine, then it will be copied and will eventually lead to a bomber strapped with a nuclear device threatening entire nations (like Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, etc). That is why the whole world must see this Israeli ethnic cleansing strategy defeated.

I think that it is highly commendable that some American Jews got together and paid for an ad in the paper against our government's unconditional support for Israeli Apartheid. There can be no doubt that not all Jews are responsible for the actions of the state of Israel and of our government's complicity in them just like not all Arabs are responsible for the shocking crimes perpetrated by some. It's a shame that Zionists have attempted to implicate all Jews in their crimes in order to provide some cover for what cannot be justified. Not only that, but Zionists have made common cause with some of the most reactionary and truly anti-Semitic elements in society (the Christian Right, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Billy Graham, etc) simply because they happen to support Israel.

I believe if Zionists admit to themselves what they have done to Palestinians and attempt to make real reparations including giving back some of the land they have taken by force back to many of the refugees or at least paying for the real world value of that property with interest that real peace might be possible. In addition, this could be done with the agreement that similar reparations would be made to Arab Jews who lost property in Arabic countries. Peace is possible but not without taking responsibility for wrongs committed and seriously attempting to right those wrongs. In addition, Zionists have to come to the realization that an exclusionary state is inherently a racist one. Israel/Palestine must be shared by Zionists and the original Palestinian inhabitants. Again, agreements could be reached whereby Arab Jews who want to return to their homes in Arabic countries could do so. Eventually, this could lead to a Middle East where Jews, Christians and Muslims could travel anywhere without anyone caring about religion. This is not as far out as it seems. It just takes real courage to realize it.

“I think that it is highly commendable that some American Jews got together…”

Commendable indeed. It’s what one would call “the right to dissent”, something clearly lacking on the Arab side of this debate.


“… Zionists have made common cause with some of the most reactionary and truly anti-Semitic elements in society (the Christian Right, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Billy Graham, etc) simply because they happen to support Israel.”

It’s funny that you’d make that claim when Arabs are being accused of the same thing – colluding with people and organizations that they would otherwise spurn, just because they have a common link, the hatred of Jews. A perfect example is the December anti-Israel rally in Washington. White supremacists who are normally against any type of “immigrant” were all of a sudden marching arm-in-arm with Arabs to denounce Israel.

>And even if we take the comparison outside of IMC, I don’t see demonstrations where the Palestinian flag is spray-painted with swastikas and burned. I don’t see effigies of Arafat being burned and trampled. I don’t see Jewish children parading around with guns promoting the slaughter of Palestinians. (etc.)

You can see the same dynamic in Turkey and Greece, though to a far lesser degree. In my experience the Greeks were very bitter and angry and disparaged the Turks whenever they could - to the point of forcing anyone coming from Turkey to wash walk across a mat covered in disinfectant, making them wait outside a bus in the cold for an hour. The Turks had a very different attitude towards the Greeks - little anger or resentment, none of the hassles for those coming from Greece. Can you see the pattern?

It should not be that hard to understand how 30+ years of abuse could create all that you described. You also don't seem to have a very good grasp of the more chaotic environment that comes from living in a giant prison camp and all the negative side effects that can bring ('King Rat'). Not to mention the disparity in wealth between the 2 sides. ANY comparison is useless, as the conditions the 2 sides live under are quite different.



>Palestinians have adopted suicide bombing as a strategic choice, not out of desperation.

Again - bullshit. There is simply NO WAY you can convince me that the individuals that do this have done so because it was a strategic choice for them. Total bullshit. They are able to be manipulated into what they do because of grief, desperation and the willingness of others to use them for their own ends. So though there are cynical (and evil) leaders may be doing this as a strategy - their recruits are available because of the desperation.


>If this is so, why aren’t there suicide bombers in Ireland? And why didn’t blacks under apartheid use suicide bombings?

A good question for which I have no clear answer. I think part of it is culture of the Arabs which seems to have less regard for an individuals life, and part of it may also be due to do the level of abuse that the Israeli-Zionists were willing to use to take the land, as well as the impact of the decades of lies and deceptions. And part of it I think is due to the capabilities of the Israelis - it can not be denied that they are very good at what they do. A suicide bomber is really just a low-tech smart bomb. Ireland was never as controlled and 'under the thumb' as much as Palestine, so it is no surprise that they used non-suicide bombs. And there was not the total separation of people, with one side taking such serious advantage of the other.

South Africa is a bit different - I look at that as having more to do with the semi-gradual escalation of repression - over the course of what 20-40? years the situation changed in stages and the repression was cranked up. That is quite different from having a series of terror attacks and massacres over a few years to drive people off of their land. Where the zionists several times killed a few hundred civilians in a day, in South Africa the closest that I can recall was an ongoing conflict that killed less than 200 over the course of about 6 months. Short, Sharp, Shocked. I think that might be the big difference in South Africa. The zionists were BRUTAL fking killers - evil spawns evil.

But - this is just off the top of my head. I don't know the answer, or if there is one.


>The sooner Palestinian apologists like you – (hey, look at that, for once, I’m pointing the finger at you instead of vice-versa) – sincerely and unequivocally denounce Palestinian terrorism, you will never be taken seriously. People will continue to suspect that you condone this type of violence

Hmmm. Lets review a couple of my quotes:
"as ugly as seeing religous leaders praise those that kill women and children with suicide bombs."
"and I am OUTRAGED at those that manipulate the anger of the youth there to create suicide bombers."

If people suspect that I condone suicide bombers, it is either because they choose to think so, or because they do not know how to read very well. *shrug*

Saeel brought up a good point about corruption in the PA but he didn't follow through with specific examples. This article contains quite a few:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110002691

Mideast Peace?
Let's Start With The Rule of Law

BY ROBERT L. POLLOCK
Saturday, November 30, 2002

In 1996, Mahmoud el Farra returned to the Gaza Strip. He had lived 30 years in Los Angeles, where he raised a family and built a construction business. He was precisely the sort of entrepreneur the emerging Palestinian Authority sorely needed, and in those heady days he built its first modern flour mill. But the business struggled against competition from Israeli imports, and PA officials began pressuring Mr. Farra to sell them shares. Led by Mohammed Rashid, Yasser Arafat's money man, they soon gained control of the company. Two days later they closed the market to Israeli flour.

Meanwhile in Ramallah, Mohamed Masrouji of Jerusalem Pharmaceuticals struggled with the large cuts Israeli importers took on the drugs he bought for his distribution company. Then one of Arafat's ministers formed a pharmaceutical distribution company of his own. In one day the official registered dozens of drugs with the Palestinian Ministry of Health, a process that often took Masrouji a year, and began importing drugs from Egypt.

But those two maneuvers were finesse jobs compared to what happened to Mahmoud Hamdouni. Also hoping to cash in on the peace dividend, he bought 30 acres near Jericho, built a gas station, and planned a housing development. He was then charged with the capital crime of treason, and freed only after signing over his land to the PA. The Oasis Casino now sits on the property. "We got rid of the Israeli occupation," Mr. Hamdouni said in June 2000. "Now we are under Palestinian economic occupation."

At a time like this, with violence a daily reality and the peace process all but forgotten, it might seem that a lack of economic freedom is the least of the Palestinians' problems. But with bread riots becoming almost as common in the Palestinian territories as anti-Israel demonstrations, many Palestinians see the lawlessness and economic misery inflicted by Arafat & Company as a major factor in a generalized rage. "We want to be a democracy," says Khalil Shikaki, a Palestinian scholar and pollster. "We don't want to be a corrupt, mismanaged entity--just another Arab country."

In its crudest form, of course, the poverty-causes-terrorism argument has little going for it. If it did, sub-Saharan Africa would be its greatest exporter. That said, it is likely that mixed with an aggressive quasi-religious ideology and/or an abiding sense of historical grievance and humiliation, economic hardship plays a role in spurring people to commit or support heinous acts. The shocking scenes of jubilation in the West Bank as the World Trade Center collapsed likely had something to do with this desperate combination.

Appreciation of the rule of law as a central element of economic freedom has increased greatly over the past 10 years as economists have watched the countries of the former Soviet Union struggle to emerge from communism. A decade ago Milton Friedman had three words for countries struggling to make the transition: privatize, privatize, privatize. "But I was wrong," he said last year. "It turns out that the rule of law is probably more basic than privatization. Privatization is meaningless if you don't have the rule of law."

That makes a lot of intuitive sense. After all, a good chance that you'll be "taxed" at 100% is probably more of a disincentive to productive activity than the certainty you'll be taxed at 50%. And it would explain how heavily-taxed and regulated Western Europe remains prosperous, while lawless countries that collect little or no taxes continue to suffer. It's also the central problem identified by Palestinian economist Hisham Awartani of An-Najah National University in Nablus: "Multinationals and big firms, even local firms, are appalled at the level of lawlessness in Palestine."

Palestinian problems with the rule of law may be extreme, but in virtually every Arab state the whim of an unelected ruler reigns supreme and the constitution, if one exists, mere words. Arabs have too often been content to blame their consequent economic decline on others, be it a Zionist conspiracy or mere lack of First World aid. And where concerted efforts at economic progress have been made, they have too often been influenced by misguided Western notions of protectionism, self-sufficiency and socialism. The fact that many fell within the Soviet ambit during the Cold War didn't help either. Egypt's Gamel Abdel Nasser, for example, sought economic salvation in big government projects like the Aswan Dam. Meanwhile, the effects of regulation and bureaucracy on the general business climate were neglected. The result is that Egypt's standard of living, which was roughly the same as South Korea's in 1950, is now five times lower.

Fortunately, Arabs themselves are starting to recognize the "root causes" of their problems. Rather than blame a lack of aid from the First World, the Arab authors of the U.N.'s first Arab Human Development Report identify "the lack of democratic and efficient governance as a major obstacle to economic growth . . . the Arab states need a transparent rule of law, a fair and fast legal system with a professional judiciary."

Meanwhile, President Bush is charting a new course for American policy in the Middle East, based on democracy and the rule of law. If he succeeds in his efforts to bring change to Palestine and Iraq, it could be precisely the sort of exogenous shock the Arab world needs, spurring calls for reform throughout the region. The president's proposed Millennium Challenge program offering billions in aid to countries that promote economic freedom could help too.
Arabs do not lack the desire for freedom--about 50% of adolescents polled say they'd like the to emigrate to the West according to the UNDP. They do not lack for talent, as the countless success stories of those who have already done so attest. And they do not lack an understanding of markets, as anyone who's ever visited an Arab souk would know. It's just that bureaucracy, corruption and uncertainty make it difficult to build a business bigger than a market stall. If accountable government and the rule of law could be brought to the region, fortunes could change very rapidly.

--"It’s funny that you’d make that claim when Arabs are being accused of the same thing – colluding with people and organizations that they would otherwise spurn, just because they have a common link, the hatred of Jews. A perfect example is the December anti-Israel rally in Washington. White supremacists who are normally against any type of “immigrant” were all of a sudden marching arm-in-arm with Arabs to denounce Israel"

When skinheads marched in Washington they were confronted by an equal number of counter protestors many of whom were Palestinians. It's unbelievable that Palestinians would go out of their way to counter protest neo-nazis only to have a pro-Israeli lie about it and say that it is backwards.

Keep it simple and straighforward, folks! Ethnic cleansing can never be justified! A true democracy has equal rights for all regardless of religion, race, ethnicity or sex! European countries unilaterally gave away Arab land that wasn't theirs to give away to Jewish Supremacist aks as Zionists from Eastern European countries, robbing the Palestinians of their land and homes and one day one of the immoral creation of Israel in 1948, gangs of Israeli Jewish terrorists massacred thousands of Palestinians, completely demolishing Palestinian villages and chased off over half the Palestinian population (around 750,000) from their own land to make way for the Zionists! This initial injustice MUST be addressed and the Palestinian refugees now numbering about 5 million must be allowed to return to their ancestral homeland of Palestine-Israel, as it is their right according to UN Resolutions, International Laws and world opinion. http://www.cactus48.com for more details. Palestine-Israel must be transformed into a true democracy with equal rights for all regardless of religion, race, ethnicity or sex! NOW!

Please read the article I posted and answer these questions:

How can you expect Palestinian aspirations for a country to be taken seriously when they've "chosen" their current leadership?

Can you really claim that you don't know why Israel would be apprehensive about having the current Palestinian government, if you can call it that, as its neighbor?

nessie & ...: Do you ever have an original thought or
are inverted paraphrases all you can come up with? Why do you bother posting at all? I'm sure you could
find software that could do it for you. 'Something like
an automated "I know you are but what am I?" routine...

nessie: if you're not trying to contribute original thought
to the subject then why are you here? we can browse
the internet for articles without your help. the purpose
of this forum is to discuss. most of your posts are like
and annoying echo.

Genie-Ass, what an appropriate name you have! There's no need for you to waste your genius and valuable time with us anti-semite goyim and "self-hating" Jews here. You'd be much happier at another bulletin board I'm sure, like where the freepers go. You're just beating your head against a bulletin board here! Don't waste your time with people like us who just can't get over the notion that Palestinians and Israelis should be able to share the land of Palestine-Israel as complete equals, with completely equal rights to the land, and a Constitution with laws that guarantee no discrimination at all based religion, race, ethnicity or sex. And that includes the right of all the 5 million Palestinians to their ancestral homeland of Palestine-Israel, which is their right according to UN Resolutions, International Law and world opinion. As a 4th generation American Christian, I am praying for justice for the Palestinians to happen very soon. It will be a day of great rejoicing, like when the Berlin Wall came tumbling down, like when Apartheid was ended in South Africa.

--"Do you ever have an original thought or
are inverted paraphrases all you can come up with? Why do you bother posting at all?"

I post for two reasons. To try to make it clear to people that we are *taking sides* in the Israel/Palestine conflict for no good reason and that we are in fact supporting the aggressors over the victims. I also post to point out the hypocrisy and lies of most of Israel's supporters -- "inverted paraphrases" with pro-Israeli phrases is one good way of doing that. And as nessie pointed out, this isn't about the writer or his/her skills but about the arguments and in this case "Israeli facts on the ground" which we are all paying for.

AND it's important to post to help educate people who have been fed the Zionists' misinformation all these years and to let them know not to be intimidated if someone accuses you of being anti-semite or a self-hating Jew. Just let it go in one ear and out the other! Laugh it off! Because that's ridiculous to most of us! I voted for Gore/Lieberman in the last election, but now that I have become educated of the Palestine-Israel conflict via websites like http://www.cactus48.com and http://www.boycottisraeligoods.org, I will never again vote for another Jewish candidate unless he or she has a clear record of not being a Zionist and says so and whose actions back their words. Zionism is a much worse threat to world peace than white supremacism! Have you heard of any crossburnings lately? Didn't think so. And isn't David Duke in jail? And even if he wasn't, isn't he considered marginal and on the fringe? Thought so. But when was the last time you heard about Israeli troops killing Palestinians indiscriminately? Today? Yep. Yesterday? That's right. Just about everyday, really, and if not that, then for sure they are being persecuted and oppressed every single day, and have been to varying degrees since 1948. Time to end all US aid to racist Israel, or force it to become a true democracy with equal rights for all including all the Palestinian refugees!!!

“You're just beating your head against a bulletin board
here”

it certainly seems that way. i was hoping to find
someone to discuss with and bounce ideas of off but
this definitely doesn’t seem like the place to do it.
everything posted by pro-Israelis is answered with
cut-and-paste responses. And that’s when they’re not
being accused of everything from racism to genocide.
So I guess I’ll just let you knobs wallow in your own
filth. In the future, if I need any shit from you, I’ll
squeeze your head.


“I will never again vote for another Jewish candidate”

Nope. No anti-Semitism here.

Here's some SHIT for you! Check out the movie "Palestine is Still the Issue" where one of the scenes shown is a Palestinian Cultural Center for Childrens' rooms are COMPLETELY TRASHED AND SMEARED WITH ISAELI INHUMANE SHIT! This has been the INSANE systematic mode of operendi for years of the Israeli army FUNDED WITH OUR US TAX DOLLARS! If you don't like the rise in anti-semitism, then you have better stop trying to defend the racist ideology of Zionism!!!!!!! You know it doesn't exactly inspire warm and fuzzy feelings to read about Zionists' support of racist, apartheid Israel! Catch a clue, Dumb-Ass!

yup, posts like that are really gonna advance this debate.

smell ya later.

>You can’t say that something is understandable without sounding like you at least partially agree with it.

Well, as any 'red blooded American' will tell you - if you try to take my land, I'll blow your fking head off. Is it so different for the Palestinians? Would it be different for you? Or would like us to believe that you would not be man enough to defend your own home - your own family, if outsiders came in and sought to drive you and yours out? You think it isn't that personal for those involved? You think seeing your brother get shoot in the head by an occupying army, simply because he was throwing rocks in protest, wouldn't make you snap towards violence? If you cannot see how the reality of living in that situation makes the youth VERY susceptible to manipulation towards explosive, self-destructive violence, than you do not have much understanding of psychology. If you have no understanding of how much pain it might take to drive you to strike back in blind anger against those that kill your friends and family on a regular basis - appreciate how good you have it.


> i was hoping to find someone to discuss with and bounce ideas of off but this definitely doesn’t seem like the place to do it. everything posted by pro-Israelis is answered with cut-and-paste responses.

BULLSHIT. Or do you just skip any of the posts longer than a sentance or two? Dont feed us this bullshit and think you have made any point beyond reinforcing what is already known - to support what Israel does, you have to lie to yourself and others. So conditioned to distortions, you do it without thinking I bet huh?

Just remove the sfindymedia cookie from your cokies directory and change your IP address .

They banned me yesterday and I am back here.

They can not stand someone who is against the ocupation, pro-peace but against terror and lies.- it does not fit how they see the world. For them someone like me cam not exist so they ban me.

We don't like or tolerate racists around here at Indymedia! Go shovel your racist Zionist shit somewhere else!

In apartheid Israel there are lots of them! See for yourself at http://www.inminds.co.uk/boycott-news-0319.html

Smear your Zionist bullshit somewhere else, Scmaeel!

"Palestinian children often face mistreatment inside prisons at the hands of the Prison Guards and are denied adequate health care. Moreover, some Palestinian children [political prisoners for throwing stones] are incarcerated with Israeli juvenile criminal prisoners in contravention of international law. These children have faced regular harassment including beating, theft of personal belongings, cutting by razors and even attempted rape with no action taken by the Israeli Prison Administration."
-Defence for Children International
http://www.dci-pal.org/english/prisonweb/advideas.html

>I would tend to believe that if it wasn't for all the evidence showing that these are not attacks of revenge except in the eyes of Palestinian PR specialists

So even though those involved often say it is revenge and point to the specific incidents that they are retaliating against, you somehow don't think that is really the motive. Interesting.


>Think about it; you were never able to give me a definitive answer as to why Palestinians have chosen to glorify death through “martyrdom” when there have been so many similar struggles in the past and present where none of the parties involved have done so.

I cannot honestly say just why there is so much violence from both sides, but I was able to point out the obvious differances that exist between this situation and the 2 you referenced - South Africa and Ireland. Not sure if you were able to read that, or if you are just ignoring that.


>None of the suicide bombers that have attacked Israelis were even born when their land was “stolen” from them. They may act out of blind rage as you said, but this rage is not generated from the situation.

This comment is sadly laughable. Do you think that they are unaware of what has happened over the last 60 years? So you think that even though they see their friends get shot by the IDF, and have lives ruled day-in-day-out by the Israelis, that has NOTHING to do with the despair anger and frustration that result in more violence against other innocents? Could you be so naive that you do not think the ongoing situation causes rage? It amazes me the illogical things that are said in defense of the Israelis.


>This “blind rage” is implanted and bred. It permeates everything these kids see, hear and do at school, at play and at prayer.

True. The hate is encouraged, far more obviously than it is on the Israeli side. This hatred, like the Israeli presence, permeates their lives - yet you cannot make the connection between the two - or should I say - you refuse to make the connection between the two. The Palestinians, and Arafat especially, can be their own worst enemies, but we weren't all born with Ghandi's peaceful patience.


> It’s not a rational response when the “theft” occurred two generations ago.

Yeah? How much land have the Israelis taken in the last few months? Do you have ANY idea? If you think all the theft occured 2 generations ago, you clearly have little knowledge of what is really going on there - where do you get your news anyways? Has the settler population increased or decreased over the last 2 decades? By how how much? 100 percent? 200%? 500%? Do you know? What facts are you using to make these judgements? The theft is ongoing, thus the violence is ongoing. Very simple cause and effect if you ask me.


>No, what the Palestinians are doing is not reactionary. It’s a well thought-out plan, just one of Arafat’s “phases” toward the more ambitious goal of driving all the Jews into the Mediterranean Sea.

The same could be said for the Israelis and their well thought out plan to drive the palestinians into Jordan. Care to comment on that? And no one bu the extremist fools are still advocating the idea of pushing the Israelis into the sea. This is something that the Zionists like to keep bringin up though, isn't it?


>genie-ass is right about one thing: You have to have a thick skin to be pro-Israeli and still hang around IMC

True - there are mindless, angry reactions from all sides. It is hard not to lower oneself to them sometimes, as there is a short-lived thrill in telling someone to fk off, but such rhetoric doesn't seem to really help anything in the long run.


>Palestinian leadership committing the worst kind of child abuse.

So are you an offical outlet of Israeli propaganda now? And are you under the impression that the PA asking it's youth to go and die defending their homes and families is not quite similar to what happens in EVERY war? Are you blind to the fact that the US is asking their youth to do the same damn thing right now?

It seems to me that the only a decent person could support Israel is through blindness and ignorance, and I am sorry to say that you are only reinforcing this belief.

Great movie by BBC reporter John Pilger. See apartheid Israel for yourself! The movie will show at the First Methodist Church in San Rafael (get directions from Yahoo maps) on Wed. Jan. 29 at 7pm for $7. Meet members of the Marin Peace and Justice group. Network! Get involved! Stop US aid to apartheid Israel! End Zionism in US policies! End all racism!

We don't want to hear anymore of your Zionist propaganda here. You are wasting your time! We don't even read them anymore! bye bye!

"- Sign not only a peace treaty but an agreement of normalized relationship with Israel.
- Give up all settlements outside of Israel proper."

The Arabs offered this to Israel last March 2002 at the Arab League Summit in Beirut, but Israel's Ariel Sharon called it "the destruction of Israel" because Israel would not be able to steal more land and water.

The peace treaty in fact included not only peace but full normalized relations between the Arab world and Israel.

After Israel rejected this, it disappeared from the media so that Israel's supporters could claim that that is the compromise they are seeking and that the Arabs did not in fact make such an offer. The hand of peace from the Arabs has been rejected time and time again.

ISRAEL DOES NOT WANT PEACE. JUST MORE LAND.

View From Beirut
by Robert Fisk

Beirut

First, the Arab League summit here in Beirut was chaos. Then it was the nearest to Arab unity that the Middle East has seen since the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. The chaos, of course, was predictable. After Ariel Sharon decided that Yasir Arafat could not leave his headquarters in Ramallah, President Mubarak of Egypt pulled out. Then King Abdullah of Jordan decided to stay at home. For a summit whose central theme--Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah's "peace" plan--had gained American support, it was intriguing that Washington's two principal Arab allies, Egypt and Jordan, stayed away. George W. Bush, after all, had told the Arabs to "seize the moment." And when Arafat was supposed to address the delegates of twenty-two Arab nations by video link, the Lebanese pulled the plug. They were frightened, so they said, that Israel might tamper with the line and pop Ariel Sharon's face onto the screen. "This isn't your summit," Palestinian "foreign minister" Farouk Kaddoumi roared at President Emile Lahoud of Lebanon.

But by the second day, the Saudi plan was on the table. It was a cocktail of promises and hopes, mixed with the usual threat that this was the last chance for peace. Given the incendiary war 100 miles to the south between Palestinians and Israelis, the Saudis might be right. Recognition of Israel was offered in return for a total withdrawal of Israeli forces to the 1967 borders and a Palestinian state with its capital in East Jerusalem. President Bashar Assad of Syria--who did show up at the summit--got the Saudis to include the occupied Syrian Golan Heights in the withdrawal demand. There was talk of the "right of return" of Palestinian refugees; the Saudis also judiciously referred to "compensation" (which many Israelis believe should be the resolution to this problem) and made a few remarks of support for the intifada to keep the Palestinians happy.

Of course, it wasn't difficult to knock the whole structure down. After a few wise words about Israel's "interest" in the plan, Sharon told us that a right of return of refugees and a return to 1967 borders meant "the destruction of the state of Israel." The Saudi plan, however, was not directed toward Israel. It was aimed at the Americans. It was an attempt to offer the United States a new initiative in which the Bush Administration could engage. Some hope. The Americans had already asked Sharon to allow Arafat to go to Beirut. Sharon declined. The US-backed UN Security Council resolution demanding an end to the Israeli reoccupation of Ramallah met a similar fate. It was ignored. The Arabs were surprised, as usual.

But why the surprise? Sharon's rejection of US appeals was inevitable after the so-called "unprecedented criticism" of Israel by Secretary of State Colin Powell a little earlier. The US media might have thought it unprecedented, but it was nothing of the kind. Powell did not criticize the Israeli military invasion of West Bank cities because it involved an abuse of human rights: the killings, the destruction of houses, the mass arrests without due process. Powell suggested that the operations might be militarily ineffective. Thus the timidity, as well as the indolence, of the Bush Administration has given Sharon carte blanche.

So has the wave of atrocious suicide bombings perpetrated against Israeli civilians by Palestinians. There was precious little comment about this extraordinary phenomenon--a method of assault that can now surely be called unprecedented--at the Arab summit. The delegates who did talk privately about the tactic suggested that the human bomb was the only viable Palestinian weapon against an army possessing battle tanks and F-16s. They asked why Israel should demand the arrest of Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Al Aqsa Brigade members after already destroying the prisons and police stations that would be needed after the arrests were made. Good point. But the Americans missed other clues to Saudi thinking: Crown Prince Abdullah's ostentatious embrace of Saddam Hussein's representative--who wore a Saudi robe for the occasion--was a clear sign that the Saudis have not dropped their objections to a US strike on Iraq. In the aftermath of the summit, even the Kuwaitis responded to Iraq's promise not to reinvade by ordering their state-controlled newspapers to muzzle criticism of Iraq.

But was anyone listening? The Americans, it seemed, had lost interest. It was certainly noticeable that while the UN and the EU were represented at the Beirut summit, the Americans were not. And so the rot sets in. When, immediately after the summit, thousands of Israeli troops poured into Palestinian cities in their supposed war against "world terror," who remembered what the Saudis offered? True, they were trying to clean their slate after fifteen out of the nineteen September 11 hijackers (not to mention Osama bin Laden) turned out to be Saudis. But it remains a fact that in late March the most conservative Arab nation--which helped create the Taliban, no less--offered a recognition deal to Israel and brought the Arab states with it. It wasn't exactly an offer rejected. Just an offer ignored. And so we continue to walk down the path of war.

Concrete proof of apartheid in Israel! PS Do a Google search on "bypass roads in Israel" for more info.

"Palestinian children often face mistreatment inside prisons at the hands of the Prison Guards and are denied adequate health care. Moreover, some Palestinian children [political prisoners] are incarcerated with Israeli juvenile criminal prisoners in contravention of international law. These children have faced regular harassment including beating, theft of personal belongings, cutting by razors and even attempted rape with no action taken by the Israeli Prison Administration."
-Defence for Children International

Many more Palestinian children have died than Israeli children. Many Palestinian children died before ONE Israeli child was killed by Palestinians.

Those who seek the truth can find it at http://www.mecaforpeace.org

Your logic is fucked. Just cuz one side has more losses does not mean that they're right.

Whose logic is skewed!???? I suppose it's OK to steal someone else's homeland, kill them, demolish their homes, lie about everything and pretending Israel's a democracy (hahaha!), using outrageously huge amounts of non-Jewish Americans' tax payers' money for your racist hellhole, killing Palestinians on an average of 4 to 1 (Palestinians / Israelis) with the 4 th largest military in the world against the poor, trapped, defenseless Palestinian people who barely have a glass of water to drink.... I suppose with YOU that's OK. You are in serious need therapy!

If you're such a supporter of the occupation and dispossession of the Palestineans, go ahead, Saeel, send Sharon your penny-jar. But don't think you can smooth over Israel's brutality with your tired-ass apologetics.

If Israel wants to gain peace it has to get the fuck out of the occupied territories. Period.

Sharon doesn't want peace. He's on record as an exponent of a "Greater Israel". Even prior to becoming prime minister Sharon had the blood of thousands on his hands.

The Barak/Clinton "offer" which you blast the Palestineans for refusing was nothing more than an attempt to formalize the utter defeat of the Palestineans as a people. They were offered a prison--a bunch of non-contiguous cantons, segmented off by Israeli-only roads, settlements, and military check-points.

You may blame the Palestineans for continuing the fight in the face of this--yet another--humiliation.

Don't expect others to.

Okay jackass?

You might as well delete my post since it was in response to Saeel's, whose was scrubbed away inexplicably.

I'm not impressed by what appears to be a capricious policy of scrubbing rightist posts. It doesn't always occur, but how is one to know whether they're responding to a post that won't exist minutes or hours later? Make me, for one, feel complicit in a policy that I don't understand or approve of. And kind of silly.

Saeel is a jerk but why shouldn't we hear what jerks have to say?

if we want to hear what jerks have to say we get nothing but on corporate media. This is supposed to be INDEPENDENT media. That means independent of capitalist, war mongering zionist BS.

Keep it up, you guys. Keep blaming Israel for the problems in the middle east. Eventually you will win, a palestinian state will exist and will be led by the same filth that has led palestinians all along, eventually israel will be nuked, with millions more jews dying, and you can either pretend to be sad, or you will just blame it on the jews.

always blame every major problem on big masses of jews. that's your way. in the mid 1900's, the problems in europe were caused by jews. now, the problems elsewhere are of course the fault of zionists/jews. always with the jews.

you actually depress me. I'm not even angry, I'm actually depressed.

Husayn-McMahon Correspondence

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Sir Henry McMahon to Sharif Husayn, 24 October 1915

. . . The two districts of mersina and Alexandretta and portions of Syria lying to the west of the districts of Damascus, Homs, Hama, and Aleppo cannot be said to be purely Arab, and should be excluded from the limits demanded.
With the above modification, and without prejudice to our existing treaties with Arab chiefs, we accept those limits.
As for those regions lying within those frontiers wherein Great Britain is free to act without detriment to the interests of her ally, France, I am enpowered in the name of the Government of Great Britain to give the following assurances and make the following reply to your letter:
(1) Subject to the above modifications, Great Britain is prepared to recognise and support the independence of the Arabs in all the regions within the limits demanded by the Sherif of mecca.
(2) Great Britain will guarantee the Holy Places against all external aggression and will recognise their inviolability.
(3) When the situation admits, Great Britain will give to the Arabs her advice and will assist them to establish what may appear to be the most suitable forms of government in those various territories.
(4) On the other hand, it is understood that the Arabs have decided to seek the advice and guidance of Great Britain only, and that such European advisors and officials as may be required for the formation of a sound administration will be British.
(5) With regard to the vilayets of Bagdad and Basra, the Arabs will recognise that the established position and interests of Great Britain necessitate special administrative arrangements in order to secure these territories from foreign aggression to promote the welfare of the local populations and to safeguard our mutual economic interests.
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Nov 2, 1917 - Balfour Declaration
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"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."
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Jan 8, 1918 - President Wilson's Fourteen Points:
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XII. The Turkish portion of the present Ottoman Empire should be assured a secure sovereignty, but the other nationalities which are now under Turkish rule should be assured an undoubted security of life and an absolutely unmolested opportunity of autonomous development, and the Dardanelles should be permanently opened as a free passage to the ships and commerce of all nations under international guarantees.
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8 November, 1918 - Anglo-French Joint Statement of Aims in Syria and Mesopotamia:
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This statement was issued by the British Embassy in Washington at the request of the British Foreign Office.
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The aim of France and Great Britain in carrying on in the Near East the war let loose by Germany's ambitions is the complete and final liberation of the peoples so long oppressed by the Turks and the establishment of governments and administrations deriving their authority from the initiative and the free choice of the native populations.

In view of following out this intention, France and Great Britain are agreed to encourage and help the establishment of native governments and administrations in Syria and Mesopotamia actually liberated by the allies, and in the territories they are now striving to liberate, and to recognize them as soon as effectively established.

Far from seeking to force upon the populations of these countries any particular institution, France and Great Britain have no other concern than to ensure by their support and their active assistance the normal working of the governments and institutions which the populations shall have freely adopted, so as to secure just impartiality for all, and also to facilitate the economic development of the country in arousing and encouraging local initiative by the diffusion of instruction, and to put an end to discords which have too long been taken advantage of by Turkish rule.

Such is the role that the two Allied Governments claim for themselves in the liberated territories.
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The 1916 secret Sykes-Picot Agreement
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Sykes-Picot agreement between the British and French recommending:

"1. That France and Great Britain are prepared to recognize and protect an independent Arab State or a Confederation of Arab States in the areas (A) and (B) marked on the annexed map, under the suzerainty of an Arab chief. That in area (A) France, and in area (B) Great Britain, shall have priority of right of enterprise and local loans. That in area (A) France, and in area (B) Great Britain, shall alone supply advisers or foreign functionaries at the request of the Arab State or Confederation of Arab States.

2. That in the blue area France, and in the red area Great Britain, shall be allowed to establish such direct or indirect administration or control as they desire and as they may think fit to arrange with the Arab State or Confederation of Arab States."

(map - http://www.users.cloud9.net/~critique/israel-watch/images/aa_248.jpg )
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http://www.users.cloud9.net/~critique/israel-watch/Chronology.htm
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The Cia in Iran - starring Norman Schwartzkopf Snr:
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he Central Intelligence Agency's secret history of its covert operation to overthrow Iran's government in 1953 offers an inside look at how the agency stumbled into success, despite a series of mishaps that derailed its original plans.

Written in 1954 by one of the coup's chief planners, the history details how United States and British officials plotted the military coup that returned the shah of Iran to power and toppled Iran's elected prime minister, an ardent nationalist.

The document shows that:

* Britain, fearful of Iran's plans to nationalize its oil industry, came up with the idea for the coup in 1952 and pressed the United States to mount a joint operation to remove the prime minister.

* The C.I.A. and S.I.S., the British intelligence service, handpicked Gen. Fazlollah Zahedi to succeed Prime Minister Mohammed Mossadegh and covertly funneled $5 million to General Zahedi's regime two days after the coup prevailed.

* Iranians working for the C.I.A. and posing as Communists harassed religious leaders and staged the bombing of one cleric's home in a campaign to turn the country's Islamic religious community against Mossadegh's government.

* The shah's cowardice nearly killed the C.I.A. operation. Fearful of risking his throne, the Shah repeatedly refused to sign C.I.A.-written royal decrees to change the government. The agency arranged for the shah's twin sister, Princess Ashraf Pahlevi, and Gen. H. Norman Schwarzkopf, the father of the Desert Storm commander, to act as intermediaries to try to keep him from wilting under pressure. He still fled the country just before the coup succeeded.

http://www.nytimes.com/library/world/mideast/041600iran-cia-index.html
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The Arming of Saudi Arabia
Transcript of FRONTLINE Show #1112
Air Date: February 16, 1993
[Posted 8 November 2001]
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ANNOUNCER: In December, on the way to Somalia, George Bush stopped to visit an old friend, King Fahd of Saudi Arabia, to say good-bye and to stress the importance of the U.S.-Saudi relationship. The significance of this relationship was underscored just a few weeks later when U.S. fighter jets flying out of Saudi bases led some of January's bombing raids inside Iraq. Next week the new administration will extend its hand to the king when President Clinton's secretary of state, Warren Christopher, travels to Saudi Arabia on Sunday.

Tonight on FRONTLINE, the hidden history of the U.S.-Saudi special relationship.

ZBIGNIEW BRZEZINSKI: We need their oil and they, at the same time, are almost completely dependent on us for their security.

http://emperors-clothes.com/news/arming-i.htm
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So we can blame the French, British and Americans too.