Hundeds Of Thousands Take To The Streets Of SF To Demand End To Bushs War Plans

Wow, it took a while for Bush Admirer to finally show up. But we all knew his first comment would be something along the lines of his statement above.

Folks, don't argue with the guy. He's here only to entertain himself at best (or, at worst, get a paycheck, although he doesn't seem to be the sharpest tool in the shed and far from G-Man grade).

I leave you with the following reportage from the San Francisco Chronicle:

<snip>

Two hours before the start of the antiwar rally, supporters of the war effort held a counterprotest on the National Mall, southeast of the Vietnam Memorial. Fewer than 100 people -- mostly from two groups, one called Move-Out and another called Free Republic -- waved flags as "The Star-Spangled Banner'' played over a portable speaker.

Some people carried signs reading "The Answer is they're commies" and wrong,'' and "Best Defense? Good Offense!''

Many of the counterprotesters were associated with the military, but Nina Burke and her husband, Steve, came as civilians. "We need to disarm Saddam before he sneaks a nuke into Chicago or New York, not after,'' said Nina Burke. "If we have support from other countries, that would be nice, but even if we have to stand alone, we have to do what needs to be done.''

<snip>

Source:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/gate/archive/2003/01/18/dcrally.DTL

any pictures of the breakaway march? im expecting there to be some tomorrow, but i was hoping they'd get up tonight. there better be some!!

spread the news that we can have freedom within this fucked up system!!

-bloc takeover

quote
"10,000 Expected at SF Rally"

http://indybay.org/news/2003/01/1562053.php
http://indybay.org/news/2003/01/1562040.php

i think indymedia said they were going to be open all day, so you could have just went there to upload your pictures instead of having to take bart home.
that is if you had no other reason for leaving than wanting to get the pictures up quickly.
anyway, good pictures.

After much evaluation since last year with George Warmonger Bush leading his failed foreign policy distraction Soviet style.

I call for a national Boycott against Exxon/Mobil gasoline and repairs at Exxon/Mobil stations in order to stop the war in Iraq.

Whether this works appears up to you. I ask you to send this note to as many lists as you can and also make as many leaflets as you can to inform people to call Exxon/Mobil and tell them you will not buy their gasoline unless the Bush administration stops the rush towards war in Iraq.

Also tell people in congress and the pResident that you will not buy Exxon/Mobil gasoline and not get repairs at such gas stations unless this rush towards war stops.


When you cut off money you cut off power to a great extent.

This boycott of exxon/mobil stands separate from the other boycott I have against the Republican Party.

Great shots, as usual. Thanks!

Mainly I wanted to comment about the mainstream press's tendency to be lazy about getting their own crowd estimates.

The police told me that they guessed 40,000 before the march even started, so there's no way that kind of number is accurate.

I say about a quarter of a million, and here's the basis for my guess.

I counted over 100 people passing me on market in the period of 5 seconds. That produces about 1200 per minute. Round down to 1000 per minute for simplicity (and fudge factor). Market street was still packed and flowing towards Civic Center when I left at 3pm, so that's at least 4 hours at 1000 per minute results in 240,000, and I think that's a little low because of my fudge factor calculation adjustment.

A quarter of a million of my beautiful brothers and sisters, taking the day to say no to the half-wit Oil Baron in the White House!

Thank you!

Z, you go! Thanks for the pictures for those of us who couldn't be there.

this pic showing us that the palestinian are suferring from the US policy too

Tell everyone, make signs, WAR = $5g. Gas.

Hi,

I would like to thank you the majority of American people for your effort to stop the Iraq War. You've done your part to avoid the catastrophe which would befall on Iraqi childrens, women, and helpless others.

The rest of the world will suffer too in one way or another if this unnecessary war goes on, Heaven forbid.

Now Bush must listen to your voice. Otherwise he can forget his 2nd term.

Thanks again.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/01/17/1042520777122.html
Is there no shame, no end to their insanity?!?

And why do people think American President would want to send his people to fight in a war, and risk their lives, in exchange for oil?
Would any president be foolish enough to think it will help in his political career to start a war?
Only a moron would act this way, unless of course, there is compelling reason to fight the war.
Don't doubt Bush and his parliament - he is a smart guy, IQ much better than majority of you.
Do we want nuclear weapons and sarin gas or other chemical warfare to become common-place or widely available to the point where we cannot control anymore -- before we realize its too late to do anything, anymore?
When there is compelling reason, and nobody likes war (be realistic), it leaves with no choice...
Anti- IRAQ war protesters, why not you go live in Iraq and find out more before you claim what you think is best...

This is yet another bald faced lie by the warmongers. Click the link and see for yourself.

People who lie, and get caught in the act, should never be trusted again.

I would just like to give love and solidarity to all the protesters. We were on the Corn Hill on my town, Ipswich, Suffolk, on Saturday, and a lot of the people talked about the world-world actions, notably in the US. People queued up to sign our anti-war petion. I would particularly like to note the admiration for the tradition of dissidence in the US (this is mainly a US site - we liked all the other protests as well) that us leftist Europeans have always had deep links with.

Andrew

Thank you!!!!!!!!!
I'm so happy to read about the recent demonstrations,
I was in Florence in november with 500 000 beautiful people demonstrating for peace. you have the support and love from us in europe!
Anna, sweden

Brilliant idea on carrying your message.

Jep jep on se Yrjö Puska kyllä aika vittupää!

That picket sign showing "George Bush on vittupää" means "George Bush is a cunthead" in Finnish. I guess the protesters couldn't have gotten away with writing it in English.

Oh yes. We should not misunderestimate Mr. George Bush.

Patheti-sad. That is all I can say. The large numbers of Americans who suffer from moral blindness is pathetic and sad at the same time. It boggles my mind that so many people can equate war AGAINST an illegitimate, fascist regime with terrorism. Peace, as an option, (or a pipe dream) died on Sept. 11th. I hope Bush pushes Saddam out of power soon, with whatever means necessary. Those who support him, or Osama, or any of the other monsters that cheered on Sept. 11th should be sent straight to hell. All you morally blind "peace" idiots can sing Kumbaya with them when you get there.

I THINK YOU ARE ALL NUTS

If you think Bush is intelligent, you are unqualified to make that decision. This is, after all, a guy who got into college by a legacy admission and graduated with a "gentleman's C" average in the major of choice for most jocks. His academic credentials are a joke. His claim that we have "misunderestimated" him is wishful thinking on his part.
And evidently on yours.

Put your body where your mouth is and enlist. You won't be missed.

And by the way, speaking of "illegitimate, fascist regimes," in case you haven't noticed, this war is being promoted by one.

You know, I wish I were young enough to enlist. Better men and women than myself are putting their lives on the line at this moment to protect us all from Islamic fascism. I have seen the graves of men like them in Normandy. I have seen the oily tears wept by the Arizona. War is a terrible tragedy- but it is better than submitting to the will of a deranged, psychopathic tyrant. You people are on the wrong side of history- big time. Peace will come, after the war is over- but only if we win. If we lose, they are coming for you too.

Given the proclivity of "intelligence has nothing to do with education", I'm surprised at the assertion regarding Mr. Bush.

I am certain it was Orwell who said:
"Pacificsts are inherently Faccist"

Jamie,
What you speak of is revenge. I was raised in this Judeo/Christian/Islamic society to believe that revenge is wrong and NOT a valid moral choice. A blind, vengeful lashing out at anyone FOR SOMETHING THAT DIDN'T EVEN DO TO US just to somehow heal the pain is particularly worse yet. You are equating the Iraqi people with Sept. 11th tragedy and it simply doesn't wash. The way to peace is through peaceful behavior.
There is no other way. THOU SHALT NOT KILL. It's simple. The philosophy that you are espousing is the morally blind one.
YOU ARE ADVOCATING THE MURDER OF INNOCENTS. THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION FOR DOING THAT. IF THERE IS A "HELL" SUPPORTING THAT MURDER IS WHAT WILL LAND US THERE, NOT OPPOSING WAR.
GET REAL.
This "war" is a grandstand PR ploy to raise popularity for our ruling regime as well as line the pockets of it's military-industrial-petroleum supporters. You know perfectly well that if our regime REALLY wanted Saddam's regime out of Iraq, IT WOULD BE GONE. BUSH & ASSOC. STANDS TO LOSE TOO MUCH IF SADDAM IS REMOVED. Keeping people like yourself scared, hurt and insecure plays right into their cynical hands-keeps them in power and keeps their profits UP.
Take care,
Scott

Jamie,
What you speak of is revenge. I was raised in this Judeo/Christian/Islamic society to believe that revenge is wrong and NOT a valid moral choice. A blind, vengeful lashing out at anyone FOR SOMETHING THAT DIDN'T EVEN DO TO US just to somehow heal the pain is particularly worse yet. You are equating the Iraqi people with Sept. 11th tragedy and it simply doesn't wash. The way to peace is through peaceful behavior.
There is no other way. THOU SHALT NOT KILL. It's simple. The philosophy that you are espousing is the morally blind one.
YOU ARE ADVOCATING THE MURDER OF INNOCENTS. THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION FOR DOING THAT. IF THERE IS A "HELL" SUPPORTING THAT MURDER IS WHAT WILL LAND US THERE, NOT OPPOSING WAR.
GET REAL.
This "war" is a grandstand PR ploy to raise popularity for our ruling regime as well as line the pockets of it's military-industrial-petroleum supporters. You know perfectly well that if our regime REALLY wanted Saddam's regime out of Iraq, IT WOULD BE GONE. BUSH & ASSOC. STANDS TO LOSE TOO MUCH IF SADDAM IS REMOVED. Keeping people like yourself scared, hurt and insecure plays right into their cynical hands-keeps them in power and keeps their profits UP.
Take care,
Scott

I said nothing about revenge. Revenge was had in Afganistan. This war is to prevent an insane dictator from aquiring smallpox, nerve gas, and nuclear weapons. If you people think all this oovy-groovy talk, and your conspiracy theories will protect you from thugs like Saddam, then you are just lucky for those "better men and women" who shoulder their arms to protect you. The "innocent" Iraqi people are more than innocent- they are enslaved. They deserve to be liberated from the genocidal thugocracy of Saddam. I don't buy all the judeo-christian stuff, not being religious...but if your religion requires you to look the other way while brutal tyrants threaten the world, then your religion is not moral either. As for "getting real"- that is what I wish more people would do. This is for real...you have two choices- depose Saddam, or let him continue to rape, torture, enslave, and exterminate. I made my choice. The bastard deserves two in the forehead...the second just to make sure. The Iraqi people deserve to be free of this monster.

Jamie,
You said:
"War is a terrible tragedy- but it is better than submitting to the will of a deranged, psychopathic tyrant. "
Ah, a memorable quote indeed. TO HEAR YOU TALK, I ALMOST FORGET THAT IT IS US, NOT IRAQ WHO IS THREATENING TO INVADE.
I can imagine that those many "enemies" of the U.S. are thinking and saying the same thing about George W. Bush. How we must look to the small arab societies and other third world peoples. We fool ourselves into thinking that whatever we do is "right." But the rest of the world doesn't see us as good, and we have given them very little reason to. WE PUT SADDAM IN POWER, FOR CRYIN' OUT LOUD.
Despite what you may think, they see us as an evil threat, and we probably deserve that. We think they're evil, they think we're evil, yadda yadda, we attack, they attack, we retaliate, they retaliate. Where does it all end? Wipe them all out? Not likely. Create a lot of bitter orphans who grow up to be terrorists? Likely. It's foolish to think that war will end it.
Your words only point out to me how that line of thinking obviously perpetuates war, not brings peace.
I think that wanting the U.S. to be a more moral and responsible member of the world community is patriotic, not treasonous, as you are implying.
Peace,
Scott

As I said, our regime can take that bastard out through covert action, and you know perfectly well they can. It's a conspiracy all right, and this isn't a "theory."
Q:WHY ARE YOU SO HELL-BENT ON MURDERING INNOCENTS TO GET THE JOB DONE?
A: Because you, sir, are a fruitcake.
Take care,
Scott

You seem to like putting words in my mouth, and thoughts in my head, Scott. I think the U.S. is being perhaps the best member of the world community by finally bring the S.O.B. down. If we "put him in there", then all the more reason to clean up the mess. He won't be the worst tyrant we ever supported- that award goes to Joe Stalin. Where does it end?...it ends when the psychotic, 11th century, Wahhabist fanaticism is no longer a force in the world. WWII didn't end until fascism as an idea was crushed. I sincerely hope that there is no war. I hope the decent Iraqi's who Saddam has enslaved will rise up, topple the Baath Party, and give Saddam the Mussolini treatment. Chances are low that is gonna happen. With some luck, GWB will spook Saddam into going into exile. If it comes to war, so be it. Some wars are just, and this one certainly is. Sorry all of you young people missed the 60's- but this ain't Vietnam. History will look at pictures from the "big rally" yesterday and marvel that so many people equate appeasement of one of the world's worst criminals with "peace".
Good luck to you in life sir. You will need it.

I've got to say this before I sign off for the night:
I'm 52 years old. I was at the big peace demonstration in S.F. on Saturday. I suspect that you have the impression that the quarter-million or so citizens in attendance there were all young people. That is simply not so. The age groups were evenly represented there. I think that the younger marchers might have made more attractive photo subjects, but the 40 - 60 year old age group had as many representatives as the 20 - 30 year old group. Not simply hippies either. People there were from ALL walks of life.
Scott

She really has a good pint written on the plague ;)

hehheh :) "George Bush on Vittupää" means in finnish "George Bush is fuckface"

:)

Hell, No, We Won't Go! We Won't Fight for Texaco!

ah sorry it has been mentioned many times :)

jaska, tee se remppa

Since the British created Iraq, it has attacked three countries. Since WWII, the US has attacked 54.

We've installed many dictators and have removed many of them, at considerable loss of life.

What many people have a problem with is the loss of life that removing Saddam will have. If you look at the stats on Iraqi casualties in the last war then you can expect more than a hundred thousand here, depending on how the situation unfolds.

I hope Saddam flees.. but really.. we know he won't. We know we can't bump him off, the much more competent Isrealis have been trying for yeats. He's tough, he's been rulign over a country with hundreds of highly armed tribes for years.

It all comes down to how many lives lost you are willign to accept, nomatter who is to blame, Bush or Saddam, this war and its aftermath will kill hundreds of thousands of people. Are you willing to have this happen? I believe the acceptance of killing on this scale is well... rather Stalinesque.

Yes, Saddam is evil, cruel. He even used mustard gas on his own people (if you are idiotic enough to think of Saddam as a Kurd or Iranian). But wasn't that with Ronald Reagan's support? Oh yeah...

Saddam undoubtedly has WMDs. Any fool knows this. Yet is he peddling them to terrorists? Does he need petty cash when he supllies us with more and mroe of our oil every month? Does having WMDs at this moment make him more of a threat than say.. Iran.

The fact is we don't know this. We don't know if now is the time to take out Saddam. We don't know if he plans anything against the US (he never has before). If you look at Saddam's past he's always been willing to talk trash about us at Pan-Arab meetings, but he has NEVER once been connected with fanatical muslim groups. We also don't know what the heck we're going to do with Iraq without this guy. If you thought Yugoslavia was a mess without Tito wait till you see this.

We don't know so much, yet according to you we should charge ahead and start a war that will do irreperable harm to millions of people's lives... and most definietly won't help your average "enslaved Iraqi" (Oh you care so much for him, don't you Mr!!). All this for what? To stop the possibility of a nerve gas attack in Manhattan? Or a dirty-bomb going off in Denver (not that takign out Saddam reduces thaty chance actually). Basicly your saying we should kill a few hundred thousand to have the POSSIBILITY of saving one or two thousand POTENTIAL US casualties.

You do the math, its all rather... Stalinesque.

Oikea meininki! GW on oikeasti vittupää!

As a European, I wish to thank all the people who marched. Yours are the faces we want to see when we think of Americans. Without you our only emotion towards USA would be fear. Your President and cronies have for the past years projected a singularly scary picture of the world's most dangerous rogue state. Consider the rules of play that decent people and governements have worked for generations to establish, and then look at your government's stance. Examples:

1. Blatant talk of liquidating another nation's Head of State. (Like Saddam or not, he is a nation's leader. This talk sanctions any JFK murders of the future)

2. "We will act unilaterally, regardless of UN" (no commment necessary)

3. "Those who are not with us, are against us" (We Europeans are real happy with that one)

4. Offer of amnesty for all Iraqis willing to remove (assassinate) their Head of State

5. For over a decade, regular bombing of another country without a declaration of war.

6. "We do not believe UN inspectors will find anything. That is immaterial" (Rumsfeld)

7. "The Evil Axis" (yeah, right - there are only 3-4 such nations?)

8. Establishment of "no-fly zones" within another nation's boundaries, and actually shooting down that nation's planes when they appear there (imagine someone trying that stunt over North America)

9. Passed by the US Congress December 1998: The Iraq Liberation Act, allocating funds to Iraqi opposition groups and specifically for destabilising operations within another country. (And this government speaks of "terrorism"?)

10. Refusal to accept similar inspections for chemical, biological weapons on its own territory, a perpetual obstacle to the Convention on Chemical Weapons (CWC) signed by 145 nations in 1993 (US included).

11. Insistence upon its right to inspect and demand. Until one hypothetically imagines the US demands of Iraq being reversed and applied to US territory, it may be hard to see exactly how invasive and intimidating the demands are. Imagine, directed at the US: The right of foreign inspectors to appear in any factory, government building, private home, to seize documents, interrogate, to map your entire military establishment, to label rusting weapons from the 1980's a "threat" to world peace - the list is endless. (For reference, the US stores 105,888 rockets with deadly gas in Oregon alone, og 13,889 at the Johnston Island atoll - the same gases (VX, GB and mustard) that Saddam is accused of storing. These are only some of the officially declared US sites, promised to be removed sometime before 2012. How come Saddam has until January this year to perform the identical removal? Bush says he is "impatient". Yeah? How about 2012?)

12. Refusal to acknowledge the recently established International Court. (This court was set up to try crimes against humanity. USA has since given "qualified" support, with the proviso that the court is not permitted to try any American citizen. In Europe we are in awe of this selfrighteousness. So, it is inconceivable that any US citizen could commit heinous crime? I thought we were watching one now: George W. Bush)

Should I go on? No, it suffices to say that without your marches, we would have written off USA as the world's most scary nation since Stalin.
Osmund L.I.

HAHAHHAAAA!!!! GREAT!!!
Geroge Bush on vittupää = George Bush is a cunthead
in Finnish :D i think that is sad but true... sorry americans

Niin se taitaa olla että GWB on vittupää, ihan hyvä paikka mennä kertomaan se suomen kielellä : )

Quickly: there is a profound misunderstanding in US media that the Iraq crisis has provoked anti-US feeling in the Arab world. Wrong. It has lowered US esteem across the globe. The antagonists are not US and Iraq, but those who solve matters through war and those who won't. Europeans have learnt to achieve more by negotiation and diplomacy. Your marchers are testimony to the common decency of ordinary Americans, and at present the only antidote to virulent anti-US sentiment everywhere.

Aivan loistavaa, hyvä suomi!

George W Bush on vittupää!

LOL! Finns are everywhere!!

And on the sad note, the world is going to hell... Those people comparing Bush with Hitler or Saddam, are doing no justice to the two latter. They did/have done bad things AND accomplished a lot, bush has only done bad things.

Fact: US helped IRAQ going for war against IRAN many years ago!
Fact: Same time US sold weapons to Iran
Fact: US set up the "war against terrorisme" just to serve it´s own purposes, meaning US wants to controll the world and the oil. I would not be surprised if the US created sept 11th itself!
Search for nesara, haarp, niburu, chemtrails on your searchengine to find out more about the truth, the real truth where US governement is afraid of!!
Look at: http://www.evolutiesprong.com and take english version.
Good luck everybody, I already know the real truth!! You will soon! Just follow my internet instructions!!

Fact: US helped IRAQ going for war against IRAN many years ago!
Fact: Same time US sold weapons to Iran
Fact: US set up the "war against terrorisme" just to serve it´s own purposes, meaning US wants to controll the world and the oil. I would not be surprised if the US created sept 11th itself!
Search for nesara, haarp, niburu, chemtrails on your searchengine to find out more about the truth, the real truth where US governement is afraid of!!
Look at: http://www.evolutiesprong.com and take english version.
Good luck everybody, I already know the real truth!! You will soon! Just follow my internet instructions!!

Fact: US helped IRAQ going for war against IRAN many years ago!
Fact: Same time US sold weapons to Iran
Fact: US set up the "war against terrorisme" just to serve it´s own purposes, meaning US wants to controll the world and the oil. I would not be surprised if the US created sept 11th itself!
Search for nesara, haarp, niburu, chemtrails on your searchengine to find out more about the truth, the real truth where US governement is afraid of!!
Look at: http://www.evolutiesprong.com and take english version.
Good luck everybody, I already know the real truth!! You will soon! Just follow my internet instructions!!

Peace for you all!!

nice slogan =D

you can find more finnish words at http://www.vaikuttava.net

iha kiva et suomenkieltäkin näkyy maailmalla mutta sanavalinta hieman ... no "teiniä"..

america kanasai.

Hitler may have accomplished alot. He was such a great guy. Bombed helsinki didn't he. Can't say Bush did that.

Hope you aren't finnish. Maybe related to one of these guys.

http://www.feldgrau.com/finland.html

Which order do you support?
New world order, funny that is the term the nuts use over here.

I find it odd that the French, Germans, and now the Finns it seems have such short memories. This is the same USA that saved your sorry asses from the clutches of Hitler, Mussolini, and Kaiser Wilhelm. The very same American spirit of freedom, self-determination, and independence from tyranny is what we wish for the Iraqi people. Just like we wished for Europe in World Wars I and II. Sometimes, it requires a little force to get rid of the buttholes that want to keep entire nations under their control.
Are your governments oppressed by the USA? Of course not. The fact that you have the ability to express your opinion over the internet without reprisal from your government is all the proof we need. Without our forced intervention, you would not have that ability today. Just seeing that you have that right is thanks enough. Even if you don't have the integrity to express it yourselves.
YOU'RE WELCOME!
Toad

Two of the featured speakers at the sf rally read poetry vehemently accusing "Zionists" of a conspiracy to take over the Middle East. "Free Palestine" flags show not peace signs but fists aggressively covered in blood. HOW PEACEFUL ARE THESE IDEAS AND SYMBOLS? NOT VERY. DO THEY FIT IN WITH THE SPIRIT OF A PEACE RALLY? NO.
I find it strange that a movement still plagued by its own violent demons, and yes, even by suicide bombers, should be claiming to be such proponents of peace. In some ways, I felt like the reason that so many of us were there was somewhat subverted by racist poetry and violent symbols. I feel betrayed.

Indeed. I also find it odd that the message from the "peace and pacifism" crowd is that if we don't accept their ideas for public policy, they'll beat us all into submission, smash our cars, burn our flags, and shatter our windows.
"If you don't accept my idea of peace and non-violence, I'll kick the crap out of you".
Somehow, our nation must officially practice a policy of avoiding force at all costs, but it's ok for them to force the non-believers of our society to accept their terms of "peace".
To me, peace is not necessarily a total absence of armed conflict. It is the absence of totalitarianism and tyranny. Freedom is worth fighting for on occasion, because there will always be some overconfident asshole in this world that thinks it's his job to take it away from someone else. The moment that his actions begin to threaten the health and safety of Americans, it's our duty to step up to the plate and remove the threat. It is our duty to one another. If you choose to get in the way, you take your chances.
Toad

Tässä taas nähtiin kuinka idiootteja Amerikkalaiset todella ovat! Vähän niin kuin elokuvissa, että Amerikka pelastaa koko maailman, ei mikään muu. Kaikkihan on mahdollista vain Amerikassa kuten taas nähdään.

Entisaikaan kaikki vammaiset ym. laitettiin Amerikan mantereelle pois silmistä ja tässä nähdään tulos.

Tyhmä saa olla, mutta ei Amerikkalainen!!!

Hitler actually never bombed Helsinki. Instead the Soviets did - even before the declaration of war.

The Americans have never helped us. During WW I, Germany gave Finland a hand during our civil war. Finland declared independence on Dec 6th 1917 and very soon the Communists started a revolution that led into a civil war.

During WWII Finland was left alone in front of the Soviet horde. In 1939-40 Winter War we had no allies but managed to survive.

In 1941 Finnish cities were bombed by Soviet Union before any declaration of war. Once again Germany was the only nation that was going to give any help.

Instead of helping a tiny Northern European democracy, United States supplied the Red Army when it was trying to march over Finland and spread it's unholy gospel around the world. With the aid of our german brothers-in-arms Finland remained unoccupied and there still are Finns left.

During cold war US had no plans to help Finland under a Soviet attack.

So all you ignorant Americans: You've done a lot for France, Italy, Germany etc during 20th century. As a European I'm grateful.

As a Finn I have so little gratitude for you.

As a free man in a free society: Thanks for stopping the red disease in Chile.

If Iraq is not willing to take any action for changing it's government the world must act before it's too late.

We have a right to live too

How the fuck did the american save the finns when Finland was allied with Germany???

Mr. Toad.

I can't remember reading about any american troops in Finland during WWII either. Hmm? Beats me.

Besides. I think your whole point of view is quite questionable. Do you mean that americans only help those that will show their appreciation by tonguing your well oiled [pun] asses afterwards? Or do you mean that americans only help to conquer? Or do you mean that only freedom allowed now is the freedom brought to you by and controlled by americans? WTF indeed?

I thought that americans helped us kick out the nazis in order to have a democratic and free Europe where the issues can be discussed freely and a wide variety of opinions are respected. That's what you used to tell us.

My dear Messrs Ethical and Boo Haa,
Did the Americans stop the advance of the Nazis, or not? If the Nazis had won WWII, do you think you would be sitting comfortably at your computer, voicing your opinions over the internet?
We never had to fight the Nazis in Finland because the war was over before we got there. Pre-war and post-war Germany has had much influence on all of Europe and Scandinavia, to be sure. But the Nazis had a very different plan than what has transpired since. Finland was allied with pre- and post-war Germany, but it was afraid of Hitler, not allied with him.
Trust me, you are much better off that WWII went the way it did.
Did you ever stop to think why you now have the freedoms you do? Is it because of the Nazis? Or maybe Western Europe's ability to defend itself from tyranny? Scandinavia's ability to defend itself against individual rogue states seems to be pretty good. But how about a world threat like Hitler?
Your comments seem to indicate a belief that somehow the US is controlling your free speech. I seem to be able to read your comments without either of us getting arrested. Additionally, the principle is not that all opinions are respected, but instead it is your right to hold your own opinion (right or wrong) that is paramount. I don't have to agree with you, but I do fully support your right to make your point. There is a world of difference. I may disagree with your point of view, but my 19 and 17 year old sons may soon be called up to defend our collective right to have that point of view.
If the US wanted to control all of Europe and Scandinavia, we would have taken control at the end of WWII. We don't want control of Europe, just the absence of tyranny. Same in Iraq, and the rest of the Middle East. Better that the people of Iraq decide for themselves who should lead them than a dictator that threatens his own people and the rest of the world.
Toad

"Did you ever stop to think why you now have the freedoms you do? Is it because of the Nazis?"

The sad thing is that without Nazis your Russian allies would had beat us and we'd be in the same position as Estonians are.

So sad, but true.

Go Bush, Go! ; )

Hey Radian,

Did you really read the article? http://www.feldgrau.com/finland.html
I think you didn't really get the point why those guys joined Waffen-SS. Those guys would had joined any anti-soviet army that time. btw. quite a few of them moved later on to USA and joined U.S. army.

Bush, kill em' all! It's your oil anyway!

Contact me, Z -- I'd like to use some of your pictures in the documentary I'm making...

1. Saying the the Zionists want to occupy the whole middle east ist just stupid and antisemitic because it's one of the same stupid arguments the Nazis used to fight against jews!!! So stop it - there is no jewish organisation who wants to take over the world - these are antisemitic prejudices!!!!
2. "our nation" - are you a nationalist or what??? Who belongs to "your nation"? How can anyone become a member of this "nation"? Because of the same blood or something else stupid? FUCK NATIONALISM!!!! NO NATIONS!!!

DEMONSTRATIONS LIKE THIS ARE GREAT...WE ARE BUILDING THE NEW SIXTIES AND WE MUST SING IN ANY MARCH AGAINST THE WAR A GREAT HYMN OF PEACE LIKE IT IS THE SONG OF PETE SEEGER :WE SHALL OVERCOME.
THANKS

I love it - Finnish filthy words can be slung, but of all the senseless ones to apply to Bush, it's a nonexistent word in English! What is a "cunthead" in Finland, does it mean "stupid", "a Jerk", "nasty in general"?

Finland is one great place, where I've been three times for a grand total of 8 months. The language I can imitate but not speak. The number of swearwords that the men use in everyday speech is worse than the Irish. Sat on a percolator!

I remember when Finland in the 80's called itself "Suomi-Finland", or SF, on its bumpers and for addressing mail. I guess it's now FIN? Ach, the great cold Northern unknown, Finland.

Here's for you Frisco folks to read about a local gal who went and stayed there a long time, loved it, and went back a few more times:

http://www.epinions.com/content_50564796036

I done wrote it myself.

Mary McMekko

[rant]

Mr. Toad: your post is slightly trollish, but I'll bite...

During the WW2 Finland had to fight twice with Soviet Union (The Winter War and The Continuation War) and once with Germany (The War of Lapland). So basically, we had the priviledge to fight against every faction involved. During the war the Allies supported the Soviet war effort with material aid... thus resulting to Finnish soldiers capturing a bunch of very nice Jeeps and other Allied equipment / weaponry from the Soviets.

Granted, most western leaders were very supportive in their speeches regarding Finland during the Winter War but when the push came to shove, it was more suitable to supply the Soviet Union that was doing away with the Germans (and Finland while at it) than Finland.

Finland afraid of Hitler? Nope. Afraid of Stalin? Yep.

I take that your history classes never covered the Ribbentrop Pact, where Hitler and Stalin divided Europe?

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1939pact.html

Do read the secret articles. Please. It'll be enlighting to you. Another interesting read: http://hkkk.fi/~yrjola/war/finland/summary.html

BTW, how did "Western Europe" defended itself from Germany? That one island (aka The Great Britain) wasn't invaded... and that was it. Surely you don' t think the UK equates "Western Europe"?

The Soviets did most of the wetwork anyway, pushing Germany away from the gates of Moscow, all the way to the heart of Germany while the Allied came from the other side. What do you think was the motivation for the Allied Forces to cover as much ground as possible in Europe...to liberate the oppressed...or to prevent their psychopathic _ally_ Uncle Joe from capturing most of Europe? Soviet Union had the most severe casualties of WW2, a total of 25 million dead. This fact shaped their military doctrine during the Cold War, the idea was that possible war would never be fought on Soviet territory.

By the way, guess who designed the rockets that got the US to the Moon? (Answer: Wernher von Braun, a German scientist that the US "aquired" in the aftermath of WW2.) Both USA and CCCP raced to get their share of the German scientists and luck decided which side one was thrown into...

Now: about your comment "...If we wanted to control all of Europe we would have taken control at the end of WWII"...good luck. I bet the Soviets would've loved that one and laid down a red carpet for you.

Another thing: what does it say of a nation where a father and a son can be presidents within ten years? That both of aforementioned father's son's simultaneously serve as governors? Political elite anyone?

Oh, and why isn't anyone planning an attack on North Korea? A nation that definately has weapons of mass destruction? Lack of oil / other natural resources?

[/rant]

Now that all this is said...

I'm sorry to see the state the USA in in right now. The tragic events of 9/11 are being used as a scapegoat to stomp down The Bill of Rights. The ideals USA used to stand for are deteriorating rapidly and that's just sad.

I'm also sorry to hear about your sons and I truly hope they don't have to go to fight for oil. Best of luck.

-Dextra

http://homepage.mac.com/leperous/.Pictures/torture.jpg
http://homepage.mac.com/leperous/.Pictures/pledge.jpg

The US did the right thing by reconstructing after ww2.

In theory only, a War with russia would have been greatly influenced by men at Oak Ridge and Los Alamos.

The russian tactical advantage was in numbers. Those numbers diminish under the nuclear B-29.
Russia could not have survived attacks on its supply chains and major agricultural points.

In 46 there was none of the modern baggage associated with using nukes.

But like today the US interest is/was not imperial.

If I recall correctly, US wasn't able to stockpile nukes until they completed the mark 5 design... This was in 1948, a year after CCCP's first nuke (Trinity Device blueprints courtesy of Klaus Fuchs, an American scientist). Soviets quickly caught up on nuclear technology, their hydrogen bombs were superior to US designs since the beginning.

Oak ridge and Hanford were online. Z division began building various test devices a few months after japan surrendered.

Teller designed a great bomb. The hydrogen issue became one of law of diminishing returns. 20 megatons and beyond is overkill. Shotgunning was more effective. The w line is still the most advanced nuclear weapon in the world. Trident d3 outclasses anything the sovs ever fielded. None the less the russians were not equiped to fight a nuclear war in 46 - 47. We were but had no nazi like aspirations.

For general information to the picture viewers some Finnish - English basics: on = is, vittupää = fuckhead.

Sing in the front says: "George Bush on vittupää". For those who dont know language is Finnish and it means: "Gearge Bush is a fuckhead". So there.

While i admire your attempts, do you think that protests in a state (California) that always votes the Democratis ticket will have any impact on Washington...I mean, you can't vote anymore against him..he stands to lose nothing..If you want impact,...go to the states that supported him...quit preaching to the choir...organize rallies and protests in those states...that will at least help your cause...

I guess this is quite self-explanatory...

http://www.pw3.dk/images/frodo_has_failed.jpg

Hey, "tell the truth" why is it a lie? Do you have any idea what he has been doing to his poeple long before we were ever involved with him.
He is a problem that needs to be delt with now, before he turns into a problem that threatens the whole world.
Why is it so hard for some people to see that Saddam is not a big hearted, peace-loving dictator. And it actually seems that some poeple are trying to paint this picture of him. Why is this?

What Orwell said was that in WWII, those who took the pacifist position were "objectively pro-fascist."

In full: "Pacifism is objectively pro-Fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side you automatically help out that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, `he that is not with me is against me.'''

He wasn't talking about pacifism in general, but pacifism in the context of a war where actual fascists threatened the US. That situation does not exist now.

Later in the war (1944), Orwell rescinded the remark, which he believed was a mistake caused by "the lunatic atmosphere of war" that had been abused by the propagandists for war. It's still being abused, as evidenced by your post.

In the war against Iraq, there is no threat by Iraq, so opposing a US attack isn't helping any enemy of the US. In the case of international terrorism, there is much evidence to support the idea that warfare is the wrong approach to stopping terrorism, and it just breeds more. Therefore, whether you're talking about Iraq or any other current US war, Orwell's comment doesn't apply even if he hadn't later rejected it.

You imply that Finns were saved by the USA in WWII. In actuality, the Finns were not allied with the US during the war. In fact, they fought a brutal campaign against the Russians and were not going to join any alliance with the Russians or any of its allies. Large portions of historical Finland are still part of Russia.

I came with several collegues of mine from Northern Arizona University in Flagstaff. The 12 hour drive was worth it for the wonderful out pouring of hope and support that we witnessed in San Francisco!

I came with several collegues of mine from Northern Arizona University in Flagstaff. The 12 hour drive was worth it for the wonderful out pouring of hope and support that we witnessed in San Francisco!

I guess the finns forged the ring of power. You are right kinda, tolken used finnish to "invent" elvish.

I knew a guy in grad school who was working on his thesis. languages and society in tolkens' works.

Elvish still sounds great coming out of liv tyler..

Whats all this talk about a war wiyh Iraq? Why dont we stop talking and get on with it already. ..Mrs. Agnes Philimore, Bumpy Acres Retirement Home.

E. Heino,
We don't really care about Orwell. We are duly impressed by your knowledge of literature and journalism.
The point is that Iraq DOES pose a threat. A very real and dangerous one. When Saddam finally gets his nukes, he's coming here to detonate them. And I'm not willing to let him do it, even once. The left has succeeded in keeping our borders open to everyone that wants to waltz in with whatever they can fit into the car, truck, motorcycle, or backpack. We have no defense against a terrorist with a "suitcase nuke". None.
Care to offer details on your plan to stop him?
Toad
By the way, what do you think is a valid reason for war?

And the proof of this is?

Tim says:
"Do you have any idea what he has been doing to his poeple long before we were ever involved with him."

Oh, Tim, c'mon now. The US was pivotal to the ascendance of Hussein's B'aathist Party. If you wish more plutonium-tipped bombs and mass death for the Iraqi people, just say so. But, please, don't flaunt your ignorance so shamelessly.

The following excerpts from a piece by Mohamoud A. Shaikh breaks it down for you.

By Mohamoud A Shaikh

Iraqis have always suspected that the 1963 military coup that set Saddam Hussein on the road to absolute power had been masterminded by the US Central Intelligence Agency (CIA). New evidence just published reveals that the agency not only engineered the putsch but also supplied the list of people to be eliminated once power was secured - a monstrous stratagem that led to the decimation of Iraq's professional class.

The overthrow of president Abdul Karim Kassim on February 8, 1963 was not, of course, the first intervention in the region by the agency, but it was the bloodiest - far bloodier than the coup it orchestrated in 1953 to restore the shah of Iran to power. Just how gory, and how deep the CIA's involvement in it, is demonstrated in a new book by Said Aburish, a writer on Arab political affairs.

The book, “A Brutal Friendship: The West and the Arab Elite”h (1997), sets out the details not only of how the CIA closely controlled the planning stages but also how it played a central role in the subsequent purge of suspected leftists after the coup.

The author reckons that 5,000 were killed, giving the names of 600 of them - including many doctors, lawyers, teachers and professors who formed Iraq's educated elite. The massacre was carried out on the basis of death lists provided by the CIA.

The lists were compiled in CIA stations throughout the Middle East with the assistance of Iraqi exiles like Saddam, who was based in Egypt. An Egyptian intelligence officer, who obtained a good deal of his information from Saddam, helped the Cairo CIA station draw up its list. According to Aburish, however, the American agent who produced the longest list was William McHale, who operated under the cover of a news correspondent for the Beirut bureau of Time magazine.

The butchery began as soon as the lists reached Baghdad. No-one was spared. Even pregnant women and elderly men were killed. Some were tortured in front of their children. According to the author, Saddam who 'had rushed back to Iraq from exile in Cairo to join the victors, was personally involved in the torture of leftists in the separate detention centres for fellaheen [peasants] and the Muthaqafeen or educated classes.'

King Hussain of Jordan, who maintained close links with the CIA, says the death lists were relayed by radio to Baghdad from Kuwait, the foreign base for the Iraqi coup. According to him, a secret radio broadcast was made from Kuwait on the day of the coup, February 8, 'that relayed to those carrying out the coup the names and addresses of communists there, so they could be seized and executed.'

The CIA's royal collaborator also gives an insight into how closely the Ba'athist party and American intelligence operators worked together during the planning stages. 'Many meetings were held between the Ba'ath party and American intelligence - the most critical ones in Kuwait,' he says.

At the time the Ba'ath party was a small nationalist movement with only 850 members. But the CIA decided to use it because of its close relations with the army. One of its members tried to assassinate Kassim as early as 1959. Saddam, then 22, was wounded in the leg, later fleeing the country.

According to Aburish, the Ba'ath party leaders - in return for CIA support - agreed to 'undertake a cleansing programme to get rid of the communists and their leftist allies.' Hani Fkaiki, a Ba'ath party leader, says that the party's contact man who orchestrated the coup was William Lakeland, the US assistant military attache in Baghdad.

One of the coup leaders, colonel Saleh Mahdi Ammash, former Iraqi assistant military attache in Washington, was in fact arrested for being in touch with Lakeland in Baghdad. His arrest caused the conspirators to move earlier than they had planned.
Aburish's book shows that the Ba'ath leaders did not deny plotting with the CIA ro overthrow Kassim. Ali Saleh, the minister of interior of the regime which had replaced Kassim, said: 'We came to power on a CIA train.'

There's no justification for this war you phony neocon. The Republican Party of 1865 Will Rise Again!

Who died and left you king? How arrogant of you to demand proof. You didn't listen very well in Government 101, did you? The very purpose of a free, democratic society is to elect leaders we can trust to carry out the business of the nation in the interest of its citizens (at least most of the time). If you don't want to trust Bush, Rice, Cheney, Powell, Rumsfeld, et al, then move to Iraq. It sounds like you would rather trust Saddam Hussein.
Toad

The Republican Party of Charles Sumner and Horace Greeley Will Rise Again and Liquidate Scum Like Mr. Toad!

Great! You can't answer my questions, can't attack my argument, so you attack me. Very sophisticated.
Moron.
Toad

Why haven’t you answered my question yet?

>>"When Saddam finally gets his nukes, he's coming here to detonate them."

>And the proof of this is?

Stupid fuckers like Mr Toad should be electricuted.

I think mr. toad is quite right and is superbly correct in what he says.I do think war will have repercussions.We can go in kick ass and hope or live life with the threat of bombs going off because we didnt stand up and be counted ,when it was needed.If not stopped saddam will not stop.!!!!o.k

I think mr. toad is quite right and is superbly correct in what he says.I do think war will have repercussions.We can go in kick ass and hope or live life with the threat of bombs going off because we didnt stand up and be counted ,when it was needed.If not stopped saddam will not stop.!!!!o.k

Amazing where you find Finns! Amazing which rude words they use for Bush - actually exellent! Well done!

Just to correct Mr Toad:

1) Finland is politically not Scandinavian but part of Northern Europe.
2) Finland was allied with Nazi-Germany because it needed someone strong to support them against the big tyrannic Soviet Union which wanted to seize Finland the same way German wanted to seize Poland f.ex..
Finland and Germany date back with a close historical friendship. in 1918 Finland even wanted to have a German earl as it's king, but German lost the war (WWI).
After WWII, Finland had to get rid of the German soldiers and they fought the Lappland war against them.
Nazi-Germany has made some terrible crimes against humanity and yes, Finland was allied with it, but so were the U.S. as well as France and Britain allied with the Soviet Union which has killed millions (as well) of it's own people and left current Russia into a very poor situation.
I am not going to comment further more on the current situation I just wished to correct historical incorrectness that happens too often. People should keep history (especially their own) in mind and learn from it!

And yet another thing: all the nations mentioned here have fought in/for their own land, only one of them has been fighting everywhere but on it's own soil. Take a guess...

And no, civil war doesn't count, we all have had those.

work on your crowd shots , Have them tel a story.

If the potty-mouth had any sense at all, he would first know that you spell electrocuted as such, and that his arguments may have to be a bit more persuasive to sway thousands of the dedicated anti-war activists who visit this site. I suggest doing something productive, like knitting, and replace the violent comments for words of intelligence and progress. Otherwise, voice your opinion in a different way. Bush can do it without using profanity, and he is equally without persuasion and point as your comment was.

Click here:

http://www.cusscontrol.com/

It seems to me that those self-proclaimed anti-war people (at least on this site), are speaking more vulgarities than peace-loving people would be behaving. I wonder if the agenda for proclaiming to be 'anti-war' is due to any other (selfish) reasons, like okay --
1) "I don't live in USA, my country is not being threatened" (selfish!)
2) "I don't want my shares to drop further", or any other economic reasons
3) "I don't want my son to go fight and possibly die in a war"
4) ...

If you love peace so much, go promote peace instead of just being 'anti-war'.

BTW, in case you think I'm American, nope. I'm Asian.

meneex tää nettiiin?!?!?!?11

EMOTIONS AND FEAR IS WHAT THIS "WAR" IS ABOUT, YES 9/11 WAS A DARK DAY BUT CONFRONTING FIRE WITH FIRE ISN'T ALWAYS THE BEST PATH. IT'S IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND THE INTERANL CONDITIONS OF THE SITUATION OR PERSON. IT'S LIKE SOMEONE TRYING TO LOSE WEIGHT. THE MINDSET IS THAT IF THEY CAN CHANGE WHAT'S ON THE OUTSIDE, HAPPINESS WILL FOLLOW. THEY REALIZE LATER ON THAT IT'S NOT THE OUTSIDE THAT SHOULD BE FOCUSED ON, BUT WHAT'S ON THE INSIDE. THAT'S HOW WE SHOULD APPROACH THE PROBLEMS OF THE WORLD. IF THE PERSON'S INTERNAL CONDITIONS SUCH AS FEAR, DEPRESSION, OR DOUBT ARE WORKED OUT FIRST, THEY WOULDN'T HAVE CONTINUING CONFLICTS. THE SAME IS TRUE ABOUT THE PROBLEMS OF THE WORLD. IN ESSENCE IT'S GOING TO TAKE THE PEOPLE OF THIS PLANET TO MAKE A REAL EFFORT DAILY, IF LASTING CHANGE IS GOING TO MANIFEST ITSELF. THE QUESTION IS ARE WE WILLING TO MAKE THE EFFORT. ALSO WE HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT THEIR'S NO ENEMYS, BECAUSE NO MATTER HOW MUCH HATE IS IN THE WORLD, WILL DESIRE TO BE PAID ATTENTION TO AND LOVED. IF SOMEONE HASN'T BEEN TAUGHT TO LOVE AND SHOW COMPASSION, HOW CAN THEY EXPRESS IT? YOU HAVE TO LOVE YOURSELF BEFORE YOU CAN SHOW LOVE TO SOMEONE ELSE. IT'S SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT.

nationalism creates mob mentality
mob mentality creates zealots
zealots breed ignorance
ignorance breeds hate and war.

nationalism creates mob mentality
mob mentality creates zealots
zealots breed ignorance
ignorance breeds hate and war.

nationalism creates mob mentality
mob mentality creates zealots
zealots breed ignorance
ignorance breeds hate and war.

Dear Mr. Toad,
Your name is quite appropriate. With all due respect to your arguments, there is no anti-war "crowd", just many people with a conscience and a moral sense of decency. There will always be nihilists on both sides who want to wreck things out of anger and frustration. The trouble is, your "side" is all about anger and frustration, with a very predictable nihilist outcome if we allow your "crowd" to dictate our foreign policy for us. Hussein needs to be dealt with - but not in a manner that will only serve to perpetuate the cycle of violence.

Hussein, among others is a threat to world stability, yes. So are we if we pursue the Bush Administration's desires. There is a process in place to eliminate Hussein and the Bath Party and the current leadership in N. Korea and hopefully all leaders (even ours) who are threats to world peace.

From the perspective of freedom and democracy in the USA, you and your brown shirt "crowd" are a much larger threat to our national security than Hussein right now, because of what you'd like to do to all dissenters, and what you would have our government do to the Arab world out of anger, frustration and revenge . You ultimately would see our nation sink into fascism itself with your policy.

Scott

"There is a process in place to eliminate ... all leaders (even ours) who are threats to world peace."

Really? Can you explain what this process is? And list examples where it has succeeded?

2/10/03
Hey now,

Instead of sitting back and waiting for this weekend's round of big marches to come, get out on a busy street corner and demonstrate your belief in peace every evening this week and encourage others to express themselves too! Two of us did last night and quickly grew to fourteen! Tonight we hope to have each of us bring back someone new. The response from passersby was

OVERWHELMINGLY POSITIVE.

JUST DO IT! TAKE A BUNCH OF EXTRA SIGNS!

Scott

It' elementary, my dear Ha,

The process for removing our leaders who are a threat to world peace is called...

a democratic election.

The process to remove the renegade leaders such as Hussein are in place (if you're watching the news) in the form of the bringing of pressure to bear on these maverick leaders like him by the world community, of which the inspections are a part of . It will work if we persist.

It will work if we really concentrate our efforts on this goal, instead of playing our international games of intringue as we have. Hell, Hussein himself is a product of just this kind of behavior by us; we made him and supplied him.

We can undo the harm that these games by us and the other super powers have caused. It just takes longer than your quick and dirty solution of war.

True and lasting solutions to problems are always the ones that take time to do right.

Scott

I have studied the anti-war movement during the 1960's and have seen a great number of similarities and differeneces. The most obvious difference is that the developement of our most current movement has reached a level of main-stream legitamacy far quicker that was seen in the Vietnam era. On the otherhand, those mainstream voices are subjugating themselves to an admitedly socialist core group of organizers. This may be a path to meaningful social reform but we must preserve the element of democratic elections that makes any reform meaningful and legitament. What I feel should come out of this movement is a new system type of political party, one that is founded on diversity and difference. The predominant force that the opposition to this movement has is an institutional setting within which they coordinate a finacial structure and public relations structure that is an endemic feature of american political life. But not to be disheartened, what is needed is an emergent political party that stands for the issues of all americans. Real security, not the security of having an assault rifle, or an army. But the security that comes from making friends of enemies. How do we do this, by appealing to the desires that extend beyond nationalisit goals. Positions like "FAIR trade" over free trade, punishing those nations that encourage the accumulation of wealth over the preservation of human dignity and life. In contrast to what most people think, there are more poeple who are considered wealthy in the United states, per capita than any other nation on earth. This does not include figures of american business that proclaim themselves americans but in reality are those who live in the loop-holes who have no right to call themselves americans than a criminal who is set free because of over-zealous police behavior. So, theres my answer, lets start a political party that finds strength in our disagreements and power in our common goals. I have the ideas and the will but I need the support. Any of you who would like to help me establish a meanighfull opposition to the republicrats in washigton, using the current movement as a model please feel free to contact me and refer any one else who may be interested to contact me and togeather we can do more than protest, we can truly encourage something greater than a NEW WORLD ORDER, but Our World Order.

I have studied the anti-war movement during the 1960's and have seen a great number of similarities and differeneces. The most obvious difference is that the developement of our most current movement has reached a level of main-stream legitamacy far quicker that was seen in the Vietnam era. On the otherhand, those mainstream voices are subjugating themselves to an admitedly socialist core group of organizers. This may be a path to meaningful social reform but we must preserve the element of democratic elections that makes any reform meaningful and legitament. What I feel should come out of this movement is a new system type of political party, one that is founded on diversity and difference. The predominant force that the opposition to this movement has is an institutional setting within which they coordinate a finacial structure and public relations structure that is an endemic feature of american political life. But not to be disheartened, what is needed is an emergent political party that stands for the issues of all americans. Real security, not the security of having an assault rifle, or an army. But the security that comes from making friends of enemies. How do we do this, by appealing to the desires that extend beyond nationalisit goals. Positions like "FAIR trade" over free trade, punishing those nations that encourage the accumulation of wealth over the preservation of human dignity and life. In contrast to what most people think, there are more poeple who are considered wealthy in the United states, per capita than any other nation on earth. This does not include figures of american business that proclaim themselves americans but in reality are those who live in the loop-holes who have no right to call themselves americans than a criminal who is set free because of over-zealous police behavior. So, theres my answer, lets start a political party that finds strength in our disagreements and power in our common goals. I have the ideas and the will but I need the support. Any of you who would like to help me establish a meanighfull opposition to the republicrats in washigton, using the current movement as a model please feel free to contact me and refer any one else who may be interested to contact me and togeather we can do more than protest, we can truly encourage something greater than a NEW WORLD ORDER, but Our World Order.

What made America what it is today was genocide, slavery, avarice and superior weapons technology.

AS THE GOVERNMENT'S PUSH FOR WAR CONTINUES, THE AWARENESS OF OUR HEARTS GROW MORE COMPASSIONATE. TO ALL THOSE OUT THEIR WHO'S HEARTS GROW MORE COMPASSIONATE, I APPLAUD YOU! FIGHTING FOR PEACE AND TAKING A STAND IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO. AS I STATED IN MY FIRST COMMENT, TRUE EFFORT HAS TO BE AT THE CORE OF MAKING THIS LIFE BETTER. JUST IMAGINE IT, A WORLD WHERE PEACE OVERFLOWS. FOR ALL OF YOU WHO CONTINUE TO STRIVE FOR A BETTER TOMMORROW, I GIVE YOU MY SUPPORT AND LOVE. REMEMBER, TO ALWAYS FOCUS ON WHAT THIS WORLD HAS THE POTENTIAL TO BE, NOT JUST WHAT IT IS!

PEACE BE WITH YOU,
FREDRICK

I attended the protests last spring, and it was a wonderful thing. Even the police officers were agreeing with what we had to say! My car will forever remember that trip, as the shoe polish that was used to show our thoughts of Bush never washed off the sides. I think that it was good for the nation to see that we will stand up for what we believe in.