Palestine Solidarity Contingent

I will be there with my swastika armband and "death to the Jews" placard.

The above is probably by a Zionist. I wonder if they have any shame at all.

--"How could anyone who believes that jews have a RIGHT to their own state have ANY shame"

This is a strawman argument intended to bring sympathy on the aggressors in the conflict.

The fact is, Israel unapologetically stole the Palestinian homeland for itself with a great deal of violence. Yet we are supposed to sympathize with the theives and aggressors rather than their victims. Zionists should be ashamed for what they have done for the past 55 years and continue to do to this day. And they do it with our tax dollars and anyone who dares dissent and question our aid to racist, Apartheid Israel is branded an "anti-Semite." Pretty Disgusting.

Just in case you didn't see, Montgomery Bart is where the student contingent is already planning to meet. You might want to try another spot.

The REAL Wendy says Israel has no right to a Jewish supremacist state. Because obviously this entails ethnic cleansing by Zionazis.

will be showing up to counter protest?

" I have dream" when Jews, Muslims and Christians can all live as brothers and sisters in the land of Palestine-Israel with completely equal rights, regardless of religion, ethnicity, race or sex, including all the 5 million or so Palestinian refugees who must be also allowed their right to return to their ancestral homeland of Palestine-Israel. Quoting Martine Luther King, Jr. "Now is the time to make justice a reality for all of God's children."

Happy to know that other folks get as much bigotry directed towards them as us (just kidding). We'll be there to march with you as we have so many times before. We support the liberation of all oppressed peoples!!! Know Justice, Know Peace.

In peace, harmony, and solidarity...

Out Against the War Coalition
Lesbians, Gays, Bisexuals, and Transgenders Against War

You dreamt:
>I have dream" when Jews, Muslims and Christians >can all live as brothers and sisters in the land of >Palestine-Israel with completely equal rights, >regardless of religion, ethnicity, race or sex,

Name the country in the middle east where Jews, Muslims, and Christians..(and Sihks,Hindhus and Buudhists also) not to mention women have completely equal rights.....

This dream will never be fulfilled by any government that caters to any one religion..Yes ..Israel is a religiously bigotted state...as is Saudi Arabia..Pakistan...Egypt...and UC Berkeley..

What you really meant was...i dream of a day when the jews are no longer a problem in the Middle east...

While the religious voices are strong in Israel it is still the least religious state in the Middle east. 75% of jewish population are actually jewsih only by ancestory but are secular.

i agree with most of your post IF you agree to modify as follows:

- Throw out all the illegal/colonial settlers (especially those from th bronx) out of Hebron.

- Notify all illegal/colonial land-grabbing zionist thieves that the isreali army will leave on a date certain soon, AND, advise them that setllement in occupied territory is contrary to the Fourth Geneva Conventions regarding war crimes. Advise them in no uncertain terms that settlement on the west bank is a war crime.


- Israel to adopt a constitution (which it now does not have) guaranteeing civil liberties to all. Immediately dismantle the apartheid system currently in place giving civil rights and governmental benefits only to those serving in the army - effectively excluding the israeli arabs which are not allowed to serve. Fund on an equal basis the arab and jewish communities; pay reparations to the arab communities in israel for many years of discrimination and neglect.

these two i dusagree with. In fact an Askenazi friend of mine doing anthropology research on morrocan jews (who were bamboozled by the zionists to migrate to isreal) found that they have fared a lot worse in israel than their kin who stayed in morroco and they want to go back to morrocco. (just one example)

- Cleanse all the jews out of the middle east Arab countries (actuallt this was already done)
- Cleanse all the jews out of Europe (almost taken care off) What's left ?

US? are your referring to throwing out feinstein lieberman boxer pearle specter shumer abrahms etc. etc. etc. out of the US government? please clarify...

i agree with most of your post IF you agree to modify as follows:

- Throw out all the illegal/colonial settlers (especially those from th bronx) out of Hebron.

- Notify all illegal/colonial land-grabbing zionist thieves that the isreali army will leave on a date certain soon, AND, advise them that setllement in occupied territory is contrary to the Fourth Geneva Conventions regarding war crimes. Advise them in no uncertain terms that settlement on the west bank is a war crime.


- Israel to adopt a constitution (which it now does not have) guaranteeing civil liberties to all. Immediately dismantle the apartheid system currently in place giving civil rights and governmental benefits only to those serving in the army - effectively excluding the israeli arabs which are not allowed to serve. Fund on an equal basis the arab and jewish communities; pay reparations to the arab communities in israel for many years of discrimination and neglect.

these two i dusagree with. In fact an Askenazi friend of mine doing anthropology research on morrocan jews (who were bamboozled by the zionists to migrate to isreal) found that they have fared a lot worse in israel than their kin who stayed in morroco and they want to go back to morrocco. (just one example)

- Cleanse all the jews out of the middle east Arab countries (actuallt this was already done)
- Cleanse all the jews out of Europe (almost taken care off) What's left ?

US? are your referring to throwing out feinstein lieberman boxer pearle specter shumer abrahms etc. etc. etc. out of the US government? please clarify...

I'm so glad there will be a Palestine contingent!
This is not just about Iraq.
viva palestina!!!

I just wondered where did got the false sense that jews from morroco want to go back ? Are you talking about Meir Shitrit - a minister in Israeli goverment ? or on the many succefull biz man from morroco ? or doctors in hospitals or on Amir Pertz - his family is from morroco and he is now memebr of Knest and head of the largest trade union in Israel.

Who gave you th false idea that jews want to go back to Arab countries - most would get killed on the spot.

How many jews are there is Saudi Arabia ? (answer = the same number of christians and budhists in Mecca = 0)

You clearly do not know nothing about what goes on in the middle east. Israel is the only country in whcich Arab women can vote. Most israeli arabs do far better than other Israeli youth becasue arabs are exempt from military service. It is not true that economic benefits are only to those who were in the army - there are some veterns benefits but those are not much and in any case many countries do that. Arabs who volunteer to service get the benfits and jews who do not serve do not get them - Is this aparthied ? what on earth are you talking about ?

Go worry about how your SUV funds terror and destroy the palnet before you correct other people countries.

A number of anti-Semitic comments made by "Wendy Nazi" have been removed from this thread. Every comment ever made by "Wendy Nazi" was then removed from this site. Give it up, "Wendy Nazi" you can't do that here. We wont let you. You're out of here. Die off, quit wasting air.

co-corrector (= hasbara/propaganda spreader)
ANSWER the folllowing if you dare:

Why does isreal have no constitution? [hint: maybe because codifying the current BASIC LAW giving rights only to jews would embarass isreal in the west, and the world would not stand for it]

Why do ALL arab communities in isreal harken back to the pogroms of eastern europe? [hint: distribution of funds to arab communities is almost = 0; an israeli friend spoke of a head of a very small village who requested school funding (forget roads, water, sewer, etc.) - do you know what the israeli bureaucrats told him? school funding will be provided only if he agreed to become a collaborator]

Is it true that jews who do not serve in the army don't get benefits? [hint: look at the orthodox community which does not serve but gets even more benefits than the secular people: it is seen as the most contentious issue in isreal after the occupation. it is not an exageration to say that if it were not for security issues as a result of the occupation, this issue could have the seeds of a civil war]

i gotta run but keep them coming ... will be happy to educate you :)

Why does isreal have no constitution? Because Israel adopted much of its political system from the United Kingdom, a country with no constitution.

Why do ALL arab communities in isreal harken back to the pogroms of eastern europe? The Jews of eastern europe fled or were murdered. The Arab population of Israel is growing faster than the Jewish population.

Is it true that Jews who do not serve in the army don't get benefits? Yes, its the same all over the world - why don't you try going to a VA hospital if your not a veteran.

“Why does isreal have no constitution? [hint: maybe because codifying the current BASIC LAW giving rights only to jews would embarass isreal in the west, and the world would not stand for it] “

This is what I call a bad hint, you clearly have no idea what you are talking about, nice theory but absolutely false, I realize it fits your agenda, but never the less it is false.
Israel has no constitution because of two major factors:
1. As said by… Much of the political and legal system in Israel was inherited from the UK

2. Even though the British Mandate did not leave Israel with a constitution the leaders of the Zionism prior to the creation of the Jewish state and than, after its creation the leaders of the newly born state have pushed for a constitution. However, because of historical rivalries within members of the Keneset (the Israeli Parliament) in the first Keneset, formed by David Ben-Gurion, the move toward a constitution was averted by the religious parties. Ben Gurion himself opposed to a constitution that will be formed on the religious citizens of the state. In order to prevent fractions with the religious parties he indefinitely, postponed the move. Constitution for religious parties meant an official separation between religion and state, such a separation still does not fully exist, though de facto, separation is kept. Since these early days, the political balance and the secular religious struggle in the Keneset have always prevented the formation of a constitution.

What is amazing in my eyes is the fact that all you winning left wingers with the high moral and progressive views seem to find all these minor issues in Israel to cling to in your criticism, but still fail to see any of the flaw in the Palestinian decaying society.
Israel is not the only Democracey without a constitution, its legal institutions have produced some verdicts and documents that are clearly work of genious, these institutions are known to symbolize the hoighst values of democratic life. But still you are pointing to the most redicules facts and turn your face to each and every non-democratic, raciest, non-ethical and corrupt doing of the
It is amazing
So it is clearly have no relations

“Why do ALL arab communities in isreal harken back to the pogroms of eastern europe? [hint: distribution of funds to arab communities is almost = 0; an israeli friend spoke of a head of a very small village who requested school funding (forget roads, water, sewer, etc.) - do you know what the israeli bureaucrats told him? school funding will be provided only if he agreed to become a collaborator] “

Well my ignorant friend, I do hope you are running to school you sure need some education…

The Israeli budget is public and can be found on line as well (sorry it is your homework to look for it)
It is out there in the open and the numbers speak for themselves. You are either maliciously lieing or innocently believe in fairy tales “an israeli friend spoke of…” why rely on a tale of your Israeli Friend when the numbers are open for the public. Is that the friend from the sentence “ some of my best friends are Jews”? If so than this either you or your Jewish friend or both are liars…

“Is it true that jews who do not serve in the army don't get benefits? [hint: look at the orthodox community which does not serve but gets even more benefits than the secular people: it is seen as the most contentious issue in isreal after the occupation. it is not an exaggeration to say that if it were not for security issues as a result of the occupation, this issue could have the seeds of a civil war] “

I have to know who is that Jewish or Arab Israeli friend of yours…
It is true so? It is also one of the biggest issues in this democracy called Israel. But hey, you are wrong again, the Israeli Kenesset did not fulfill all your wet “Israel is an Apartheid state” dreams.
It is also true that Arabs that do not serve in the Army are entitled to these benefits as well. As a matter of fact a big portion of the budget is going to fund these two sectors with welfare benefits that are paid to each family according to the number of children under the age of 18. This benefit grows considerably for any child who is the 4th born and above. This means that these religious and Arab families that usually have more kids (No racism, Only statistics) suck up a huge portion of the welfare budget. This also means that these families get an income of more than 1-2K USD without going to work. This also means that Palestinians of the occupied territories are doing all sorts of legal and illegal things in order to get the “Blue” identity card and become regular Israeli citizens.

Editor: Please note, that whoever used the name Wendy Nazi, was trying to slur another Wendy, who is pro-justice for the Palestinians and all people, anti-ALL racism including Zionism and Nazism, and believes that Israel should be transformed into a true democracy with completely equal rights for all, regardless of religion, race or sex, including for all the Palestinian refugees who must be allowed their right to return as according to UN Resolutions, International Law and world opinion.

“Why does isreal have no constitution? [hint: maybe because codifying the current BASIC LAW giving rights only to jews would embarass isreal in the west, and the world would not stand for it] “

This is what I call a bad hint, you clearly have no idea what you are talking about, nice theory but absolutely false, I realize it fits your agenda, but never the less it is false.
Israel has no constitution because of two major factors:
1. As said by… Much of the political and legal system in Israel was inherited from the UK

2. Even though the British Mandate did not leave Israel with a constitution the leaders of the Zionism prior to the creation of the Jewish state and than, after its creation the leaders of the newly born state have pushed for a constitution. However, because of historical rivalries within members of the Keneset (the Israeli Parliament) in the first Keneset, formed by David Ben-Gurion, the move toward a constitution was averted by the religious parties. Ben Gurion himself opposed to a constitution that will be formed on the religious citizens of the state. In order to prevent fractions with the religious parties he indefinitely, postponed the move. Constitution for religious parties meant an official separation between religion and state, such a separation still does not fully exist, though de facto, separation is kept. Since these early days, the political balance and the secular religious struggle in the Keneset have always prevented the formation of a constitution.

What is amazing in my eyes is the fact that all you winning left wingers with the high moral and progressive views seem to find all these minor issues in Israel to cling to in your criticism, but still fail to see any of the flaw in the Palestinian decaying society.
Israel is not the only Democracy without a constitution, its legal institutions have produced some verdicts and documents that are clearly work of genius, these institutions are known to symbolize the highest values of democratic life. But still you are pointing to the most ridicules facts and turn your face to each and every non-democratic, raciest, non-ethical and corrupt doing of the
It is amazing
So it is clearly have no relations

“Why do ALL arab communities in isreal harken back to the pogroms of eastern europe? [hint: distribution of funds to arab communities is almost = 0; an israeli friend spoke of a head of a very small village who requested school funding (forget roads, water, sewer, etc.) - do you know what the israeli bureaucrats told him? school funding will be provided only if he agreed to become a collaborator] “

Well my ignorant friend, I do hope you are running to school you sure need some education…

The Israeli budget is public and can be found on line as well (sorry it is your homework to look for it)
It is out there in the open and the numbers speak for themselves. You are either maliciously lying or innocently believe in fairy tales “an israeli friend spoke of…” why rely on a tale of your Israeli Friend when the numbers are open for the public. Is that the friend from the sentence “ some of my best friends are Jews”? If so than this either you or your Jewish friend or both are liars…

“Is it true that jews who do not serve in the army don't get benefits? [hint: look at the orthodox community which does not serve but gets even more benefits than the secular people: it is seen as the most contentious issue in isreal after the occupation. it is not an exaggeration to say that if it were not for security issues as a result of the occupation, this issue could have the seeds of a civil war] “

I have to know who is that Jewish or Arab Israeli friend of yours…
It is true so? It is also one of the biggest issues in this democracy called Israel. But hey, you are wrong again, the Israeli Kenesset did not fulfill all your wet “Israel is an Apartheid state” dreams.
It is also true that Arabs that do not serve in the Army are entitled to these benefits as well. As a matter of fact a big portion of the budget is going to fund these two sectors with welfare benefits that are paid to each family according to the number of children under the age of 18. This benefit grows considerably for any child who is the 4th born and above. This means that these religious and Arab families that usually have more kids (No racism, Only statistics) suck up a huge portion of the welfare budget. This also means that these families get an income of more than 1-2K USD without going to work. This also means that Palestinians of the occupied territories are doing all sorts of legal and illegal things in order to get the “Blue” identity card and become regular Israeli citizens.

“Israel should be transformed into a true democracy completely equal rights for all, regardless of religion, race or sex,”
Every democracy have the right to defend itself, and still be considered as a democracy, though I am not really bothered with your opinions of democracy, and do not consider you or for that matter any other on this board as some kind of an authority on that issue.
The absolute vast majority of the so called “Palestinian people” are living outside of Israel and the occupied territories for the last 55 years. Their status, prosperity and legal rights within Israel proper (excluding the current war zone known as the occupied territories, is so much better that their status anywhere else in the Middle east.
Though being under occupation during their entire, short, history, no country has ever offered them freedom and self rule in a separate entity. The only country ever to offer them such a thing was Israel.
The Israeli Arabs enjoy the same rights that each and every other Israeli enjoys according to the laws of the Israeli parliament and its judicial system.
“including for all the Palestinian refugees who must be allowed their right to return as according to UN Resolutions, International Law and world opinion.”
I could not care less about your, the UN and the world opinion, all are biased quite and / or loud according to their needs at the time. (for “the inclination in man's HEART is evil from his youth “)
“the Palestinian refugees who must be allowed their right to return”
True, but only to the new Palestine and never to Israel.

Don't you love it when the best come back of zionists in response the plight of the palestinians is: "Hey, their condition is a lot worse elsewhere in the Middle East" (i.e. it's ok for zionist to murder palestinian children because king hussein murdered thousands, so did the lebanese, etc. etc. Way to go with your moral stance!! Also, look at this "bob" response regarding the condition of palestinian communities in israel: "in the pogroms, the jews were being murdered; so what if what if the palestinians live in squaler and slums in israel as fifth class citizens behind russians, mizrahis, and the ethiopian jews??"

So just to be sure you don't have a disability in comprehension: WHY is the condition of the arab community in isreal so miserable???

"Inherited itss laws from the UK???" this poor hapless powerless country... the kenesset is there only for show and protecting british law!! this is truly laughablebut i'm glad you brought it up - because that is but one of the oppression tools that isreal uses against the palestinians: it will selectively use the british mandate law OR the jordanian law OR the israeli law OR military edict in the occupied territories - depending on what suits its needs...

Gideon Levy in "it's no dream" said: "During thirty-five years of military occupation not a single hospital has been built in the territories - not one. Not one road was built (except apartheid/settler jew-only roads - ed.) in thirty five years. Now, we're destroying whatever roads there are along with the rest of the palestinian civil infrastructure. There are villages and places on the west bank where the army does not have enough resources to isolate; so what they do? they bring huge bulldozers and excavators and very deep ditches around these villages. There are now about 400 villages where the army has done this."

like i said keep it coming - more later.
========================
"It's No Dream": Listen to Israeli intellectuals, commentators and artists
questioning and challenging the Israeli government occupation policies.
http://tv.oneworld.net/tapestry?story=466&window=full

"In a Prison called Palestine": Follow Free Speech TV reporters who
investigate what it's really like living in the occupied territories.
http://tv.oneworld.net/tapestry?story=451&window=full

"A Son's Legacy": Travel the road that Itzhak Frankental has followed since
his soldier son was killed and he tries to make sense of his personal
tragedy by reaching out to other bereaved families on both sides of the
divide in his moving account.
http://tv.oneworld.net/tapestry?story=457&window=full

Watch Rory Macmillan's video diary as he observes the unequal battle of
Bethlehem and concludes that a tightening Israeli military stranglehold in
the Occupied Territories inevitably leads to more suicide bombs.
http://tv.oneworld.net/tapestry?story=243&window=full

The games these leftist jewhaters play are so amusing. They deny Israel is a democracy and as evidence use the words of opposition parties and politicians. They claim Israel is commiting genocide and then demand greater rights for millions of Palestinians. They deny they are Nazis but distribute materials prepared by whitepower sites. Leftist animals - your hate will not have the slightest effect on the state of Israel - however, your ugly bigotry will tear apart the progressive movement.

"racism including Zionism" - aren't you now the Nazi ?

Claming that zionism is racism is a nazi propeganda that has no room on indymedia. Zionism is a movment that is for self detremination.

I am in favor of palestinian peiople rights for self determination in Palestine - does this make me a racist ?

I am in favor of the jewish people (hebrews) right for self detremination in israel, an Israel that withdraw from all the land it occupied since 67. This makes me clearly a zionist but does this makes me a racist ?

Not at all my frined, I am in favor of every nation/people right of self determination and I do not care if they are jewish or a palestinians.

You are taking to yourself way to much editorial freedom - enough not to allow honest discussion on this board and I am sure you will remove this comment as well. What that hack, enjoy in your prepetuated ignorance of the true facts.

People of good conscience have chosen to boycott israeli products and companies supporting the zionist entity:

http://www.inminds.co.uk/boycott-israel.html

=======================================
If I were asked for advice, I would counsel Jewish communities throughout the world as follows: break out of the vicious circle. Disarm anti-Semites by breaking the habit of automatically identifying with everything the Israeli government does. Let your conscience speak out. Return to the traditional Jewish values of "That which is altogether just shalt thou follow!" (Deut. 16:20) and "Seek peace and pursue it!" (Psal. 4: 14). Identify yourselves with the Other Israel, which is struggling to uphold these values at home.

All over the world, new Jewish groups that follow this way are multiplying. They break yet another myth, that the duty of Jews everywhere is to subordinate themselves to the edicts of the current Israeli government. They know that the true duty of Jews worldwide is to cling fast to Jewish values.

_____

Uri Avnery is founder of Gush Shalom http://www.gush-shalom.org, an Israeli non-partisan grassroots peace movement composed of Jews and Arabs.

=====================================

to DTL: open your heart the light before it's too late... don't let it rot in darkness. THINK!! don't let your brain attrophy from stale zionist hasbara. Look around, explore. You might learn a thing or two.

Wish you well.

You are clearly very biased on only bring info that try to prove your point. When proven false you shift the discussion, first it was Israel sphardi Jews than Arabs in israel and now palestinians under occupation.

No one here try to justify the occupation - it is wrong and it should end. But your attempts to delegimize Israel all together expose what you are.

I'm so sorry to say you are WRONG. I am a palestinian (going back to the late 1400's geneologicaly) who would take israeli citizenship in a heartbeat: israel refuses to accept me as an indegenous person and welcomes fantic fuckheads from brooklyn new york who come to disposess and taunt my people.

If you work on your reading skills a bit more you will see that there is no contradiction. israel is a very stratified class-based society. every time i take a cab from ben gurion to the west bank with a morrocan/mizrahi jew i heard no end to their complaints how they built this country and now they are treated as third class citizens behind the russians who are given everything while the mizrahis get nothing!! - they tell ME (a palestinian!) that they would have been much better off staying in their home country. Of course; your ashkenazi or other fantic ilk rule on top in the apartheid regime - to say nothing of the ethiopian jews...

finally, if all of you zionists claim you are for peace, will you demonstarte this saturday? why don't you answer ANSWER's cal??? (below)

more later - of course.

p.s. [hint: call the JCRC and ask them to donate to ANSWER from the US taxpayer's dollars they get back from israel - that is if they get any of course.]

MOMENTUM IS ESCALATING! FUNDS URGENTLY NEEDED FOR JAN.18 PROTEST IN SAN FRANCISCO

The International ANSWER Coalition (Act Now to Stop War & End Racism) is in urgent need of funds to make the Jan. 18 Mass March to Stop the War Against Iraq a success. The march has gained huge momentum and media attention, including a full page story on page three of the SF Chronicle this morning!

The ANSWER office is swamped with calls and emails as more and more people want to express their opposition to the war. As the momentum grows, so do the expenses necessary to make our united and powerful voice heard. As we hear of more buses, cars, vans and contingents arriving Saturday, our logistical costs grow.

This week alone we face expenses in excess of $35,000! Sound and stage will exceed $18,000. Portable toilets: $3,000. Banners and beautifully printed signs: over $4,000. In addition we have printing costs for flyers and posters, mobilizer's newsletters, truck rental, tables, ASL sign language interpreters, and many, many more.

The scope of these expenses has expanded beyond our expectations, but is now necessary due to the increased turnout expected for Saturday.

Tax-deductible donations can be made online at http://www.progressunity.org, just select Jan. 18 protests. Checks can be made out to International ANSWER or tax deductible donations to Progress Unity Fund/ANSWER and mailed to 2489 Mission St. #24, San Francisco, CA 94110. Credit card donations can also be
made over the phone at (415) 821-6545.

Remember to join us on Sat. Jan. 18 at 11 am at Embarcadero & Market Streets. The march will start at noon and the rally in Civic Center at 1 pm.

Your support and generosity are appreciated, and together we will make Saturday a historic day of protest against the war.



** Correction to the Logistics & Volunteer schedule: The South Asian Contingent will meet at the south side of Market & Beale St.

"People of good conscience have chosen to boycott israeli products and companies supporting the zionist entity"

The caption of nazi boycott is comparable to zionists bycott of palestinian products and farm produce as soon as they got off the boat in haifa and starting grabbing the land.

Boycotting Isreal is comparable to boycotting South Africa and is apt to be even more effective: many israeli patriots call for the bycott to bring an end to the immoral apartheid regime. Nobody is fooled.

* * *
Divest and Boycott Isreal NOW - until it relinquishes its apartheid ways!!
* * *

That there are other crimes happening in the world is without a doubt. What makes Israel's crimes especially important to Americans is that we pay for all their crimes almost entirely. We have given them around $150 Billion in aid so far and continue to give them ever more aid every year even in the face of atrocities. They get more aid from us by far than any other country on the face of the planet -- not to mention all the diplomatic support designed to keep them from being held accountable for their actions. (How many UN Resolutions against Israel has the US VETOED?)

And if anyone who pays Israel's bills dares to question our support they are branded "anti-Semites" by Israel's supporters.

They could not commit all the crimes they commit (like shooting rioting children in the forehead and firing rockets from Apache helicopters into apartment buildings) without the decisive US aid and diplomatic support that is lavished upon them to the detriment of the indigenous people who were uprooted to create a Jewish Homeland on top of what used to be the Palestinian Homeland.

The US is seen in the region as hypocrytical and has lost all credibility because of our one sided support of Israel on the one hand and genocidal policies against the Iraqi civilian population on the other. Israel invaded Lebanon and the US responded by increasing their aid. Iraq attacked Kuwait and the US responded by "bombing them back to the stone age."

Whether we like it or not, our government has taken sides in this conflict in our names. It is our responsibility to end all aid and become neutral in this conflict. That is the minimum moral responsibility. Beyond that, we do have a responsibility to the victims. Right now it is completely backwards. We help the aggressors and the US is committed to "defending" Israel. Which means if Israel attacks a neighbor again but then finds itself in a real war, US troops would be sent in to protect them.

Check out the clip at http://www.divest-from-israel-campaign.org and an Israeli Refusenik says plainly that Israel is "a racist, anti-democratic, apartheid regime".

It's so sad how Zionists play the victim card almost as a reflex reaction. Gunter's photo above equating Nazis with those who support a boycott of Israeli products does an injustice to those who really suffered under the Nazis. And it also defends Israel's ethnic cleansing of Palestinians by attacking those who oppose it.

I signed a po last week for over 750K of israeli software.

Looking at a half million more by the end of this year for security software from a different israeli company.

Maybe you should blow yourself up in a Pizza Hut to get your point across. Yu will get lots of great press for killing women and children..

Corporate america spends big dollars with israeli vendors. good products.

I've been wondering about the Jerusalem Post referring to the brave (Jewish American) activist Adam Shapiro as an 'apostate Jew' . What exactly is that supposed to mean? I understand he has said he is 'not religious'. Who knows, maybe he is an agnostic or an atheist (as are a great many Zionists). He hasn't 'converted' to Christianity or Islam or any other religion, he's just said he's 'not religious'. What's the deal with calling him an 'apostate'? Since when did the Jerusalem Post become a Beit Din?!

--"On our people's behalf, please accept our most sincere appology."
from Shlomo Cohen above

Despite the fact that Zionists try to implicate all Jews in their crimes, there can be no doubt that not all Jews are guilty of those crimes -- only those who choose to be Zionists (including non-Jewish Zionists like Clinton or the Christian fundamentalists).

You have nothing to apologize for. You and those like you never did anything wrong and are not responsible for the actions of Zionists. Nor are you responsible for "Khalifornian" or any one else like that just as most people on here are not responsible for some of the truly anti-Semitic posts that sometimes crop up (though I am sorry if you ran in to any of those).

But thank you any way for your kind words even though you have nothing to apologize for...

I believe if Zionists started thinking as you do that there may actually be a chance for peace in the Middle East with Jews able to travel throughout the Arab countries and Arabs in Israel, etc. Anyway, can't hurt to dream.

I don't forgive you Shlomo - all I hear is talk. What actions are you taking to stop the crimes commited by Jews against my people in Palestine, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan? We are at war and those who stand by and do nothing but talk are not our friends. When you take up arms and join us in battle against the Zionist Jews, whether in the streets of Jaffa or the streets of San Francisco, then you will have earned my forgiveness. Until then you are an enemy of Palestine and an enemy of peace.

"Assaf" is probably just another Zionist pretending to be a Palestinian. I've run into several of these TROLLS on this site. They're pretty obvious.

Here is another impersonator. Or could it be the same person?
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/01/1561327_comment.php#1561556

So the anti-Semites will be a contingent at the rally. OK, so they are hijacking yet another anti-war rally to promote killing Jews. No surprise there. One imagines that these people will dance in the streets when Iraq's bombs kill Israelis in Haifa and Tel Aviv, just as they did in 1991, and just as they did on 9/11 when they heard of the WTC bombing.

For those of us that actually oppose the upcoming war, this is very distressing.

I'll be there to oppose the war in Iraq. If I see any of the typical leftist Swastika/White Power/Anti-Israel nonesense, I'm out of there.

You would do yourself good to identify with the "other" Israel. Read the book "The Other Israel".

You owe to yoursel to be informed. Your comment tends to dilute the term "anti-semetic" into meaningless blather and a simplistic tactic to muzzle intelligent debate.

Here is what Daniel Barenboim says about the book:

"This book proves once again that it is possible and even necessary to be critical of the policies of one's government without being considered a traitor."


* * *
"That which is altogether just shalt thou follow!" (Deut. 16:20)

"Seek peace and pursue it!" (Psal. 4: 14)

* * *

By Ibrahim Barzak
Associated Press Writer
Friday, January 17, 2003; 8:56 AM

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip –– Thousands of Palestinians toting pictures of Saddam Hussein marched in support of the Iraqi leader Friday as Israelis lined up for gas masks, fearing attack on their cities if the United States goes to war with Iraq.

In Gaza City, about 3,500 Palestinians filled narrow streets with fluttering Iraqi flags and pictures of Saddam. Some chanted together, "Our beloved Saddam, strike Tel Aviv," reviving an old slogan from the 1991 Gulf War.

Flanked by three guards hefting submachine guns, Abdel Aziz Rantisi, a Hamas leader, told reporters that the march was evidence of strong Palestinian support for Iraq.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5705-2003Jan17.html

So? It's not worth going to WWIII for! Justice for the Palestinians now, if you really care about peace.

Please tell me, how does the whole arab world complain of Palestinians being dislocated from their land? Tell me, why have 900,000 Arab Jews been purged of their land and belongings in the Arab world. Egyptian, Morrocan, Iraqi, and other Arab Jews had their family members Murdered and their daughters and wives Raped under the watchful eye of Arab authorities. So if you want to talk about Palestinian justice, take a look at almost a million Jews who had to leave their homelands to take refuge in Israel. Arabs take their land and the Jews create their own in Palestine. It is an eye for an eye, no buts, if, whys, or whatever. ( http://www.jimena-justice.org/personal/personal_stories.htm )
I am sick of Arabs crying that they lost their land; Jews were living there along with them for thousands of years. Now if Arabs from Palestine are not accepted by their neighbors, then that’s not American’s problem. They are refugees because they choose to be. They could do something, create a life for themselves. Instead, they choose to sit on their asses and complain. No other group of people has been a refugee for so long.

As for the case for a Palestinian state, there never was such a thing in the past, why should we care to make one now? Canaan (now Palestine) has historically been under the control of Jews, Assyrians, Turks, Britain, Egypt, and Jordan. I repeat, there is not even such a nation as Palestinians. This was an idea only created after Arabs lost all their wars with Jews. They needed a way to get the land back under Arab control, so they want to make it an independent state. If it does become a reality, it will be about as independent as Lebanon, a country who is under the heel of Syria. By the way, has anybody bothered to check if Arabs in Palestine are actually Palestinians. For example, isn’t their leader, Arafat, an Egyptian.
Lets face it, Arabs are just pissed for losing all their wars in the last millennium to other nations. They have not had a significant discovery since the first millennium AD. Now they are taking it out on all the democratic nations because we do not punish them as harshly as we used to. I bet if those Saudis attacked our world trade center a hundred years ago when we had strict politics (like when we messed up Spain for our own submarine accident), we would have made another Grand Canyon in the middle of Mecca.

Arabs control over 99% of the middle east

Jews control under 1%

Arabs have 22 countries.

Jews have one one lil sliver of a homeland.

Jews from arab countries have almost all been forced to flee over the years, now they're almost all gathered in israel (or left that part of the world entirely).

Yet, the entire arab world is united in one of two thoughts: (1) israel has grown too big and the jews are land-hogging, or (2) israel shouldn't exist at all, muslims should control everything.

FACT: 80% of the TERRITORY known as Palestine for hundreds of years was taken and turned into JORDAN just 80 or so years ago.

FACT: Israel plus the west bank plus gaza COMBINE to be just around 20% of the former TERRITORY known as Palestine.

People yelling "free Palestine" need a simple education in history, because Jordan is WAY more "Palestine" than Israel is.

In an ideal world, 100% of Palestins would have immigrated to Jordan, and Israel would control that entire area, and that would be the end of it.

Unfortunately, for those that are educated on the subject, the palestinians TERRORIZED JORDAN so much that king hussein laid the smack down on them a few decades ago and palestinians never bothered Jordan again.

And the Nazis had only one little sliver of Eurasia. The Khmer Rouge had only one little sliver of South East Asia. The North Koreans don't even have control of all of their own peninsula.

So what's your point? Are you trying to say that how much land you control somehow justifies how you control it and negates the claims of the people you stole it from? Israel is twice the size it was when I planted that tree there. Does that mean it is now half as justified in its existence? What on earth are you getting at here? Are you trying to say that ethnicity should determine what percent of a given piece of land is controlled by whom? Your logic eludes me here. You seem to be grasping at straws in a futile attempt to defend the indefensible.

An ethnic based state, seized and held by force, in morally indefensible. It’s wrong. It was wrong when the Nazis did it. It’s wrong when Zionists do it. It’s wrong when anybody does it. It is entirely indefensible. That’s why you’re grasping at straws.

No,it's YOU who ignores all the main points and grasps at any little point you can get your hand on to misinterpret and twist.

Geographer says: And the Nazis had only one little sliver of Eurasia. The Khmer Rouge had only one little sliver of South East Asia. The North Koreans don't even have control of all of their own peninsula.

EDUCATED RESPONSE: Thanks for the irrevelant information.

geograhier (nessie) says: So what's your point? Are you trying to say that how much land you control somehow justifies how you control it and negates the claims of the people you stole it from?

EDUCATED RESPONSE: I brought up the amount of land specifically due to accusations that jews are "taking over the middle east," an absurd claim.

geographer says: Israel is twice the size it was when I planted that tree there. Does that mean it is now half as justified in its existence?

EDUCATED RESPONSE: I guess those arab wars didn't turn out the way arabs wanted, eh?

geographer says: What on earth are you getting at here? Are you trying to say that ethnicity should determine what percent of a given piece of land is controlled by whom?

EDUCATED RESPONSE: Muslims have done it across 99% of the middle east. So jews did it in 1%. If it's wrong for jews to do it, it should also be wrong for muslims to do it. But no one is campaigning for arab countries to be broken up. No one is campaigning to give pakistan back to india. The only thing you trumpet is to rob the jews.

geographer says: Your logic eludes me here. You seem to be grasping at straws in a futile attempt to defend the indefensible.

EDUCATED RESPONSE: No, I constantly make tons of good points, and you pick the ones I don't word perfectly and harp on them.

geographer says: An ethnic based state, seized and held by force, in morally indefensible.

EDUCATED RESPONSE: It's dishonest to claim that's the only way israel was formed. Immigration by hundreds of thousands of jews, who bought homes and land and built things up, and eventually the powers that be allowed them to officially declare a state - that's how israel formed. Refugees occured during wars, not during the decades and decades of jewish immigration that led to the state being built.

geographer says: It’s wrong. It was wrong when the Nazis did it. It’s wrong when Zionists do it. It’s wrong when anybody does it.

EDUCATAED RESPONSE: Is it wrong when it's done to jews, forcing jews to roam around the world for 1300 years? Jews originated from there. You act like it was immoral for jews to immigrate decade after decade to a TERRITORY that was not yet a state and to be given control of that territory by the people who maintained control of it.

P.S. Again, 80% of "Palestine" became JORDAN. Stop pretending an entire country was "taken" and given to jews.

>accusations that jews are "taking over the middle east," an absurd claim.

That’s a straw man.

See:

http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/straw.htm


“Jews” are not taking over “the Middle East.” Israelis are taking over the West Bank and Gaza. That they are not taking over, oh, say, Syria or Iraq, in no way, shape or form negates that they are taking over the West Bank and Gaza. They are taking over the West bank and Gaza. This is undeniable.



> I guess those arab wars didn't turn out the way arabs wanted, eh?

That is precisely and exactly the same as saying that war is justifiable way to steal land. You sound like a Nazi justifying the seizure of Poland and the ethnic cleansing of Jews from the land. “Oh well,” you are saying in effect, “they lost the war, so screw ‘em.”


>Muslims have done it across 99% of the middle east. So jews did it in 1%.

“They do it, too,” is no excuse. Right is right and wrong is wrong, period. Who does it is irrelevant.



>If it's wrong for jews to do it, it should also be wrong for muslims to do it.

It is. See above.


>But no one is campaigning for arab countries to be broken up.

That’s a lie. I do. All anarchists do. Anarchists, by definition, are campaigning for *all* countries to be broken up. It’s the essence of who we are.

Down with all nation states. Away with all borders. No maps but topo maps.



>No, I constantly make tons of good points, and you pick the ones I don't word perfectly and harp on them.

I “harp,” as you put it, on one point. Zionism is racism. Everything else that is wrong with the situation in the Land With Two Names derives from that single point. In a just, secular society, Jews would have the same rights and the same responsibilities and Muslims, Christians and whoever else, no more, no less. Jews have a right to live there (or anywhere else) in peace, unmolested by their neighbors. They do not have the right to run the place and lord it over everyone else, just because they happened to be born Jews.




>the powers that be allowed them to officially declare a state - that's how israel formed.

If you know that much about Israeli history, you also know that the amount of land allocated to the state of Israel by the powers that be, was immediately expanded by force and continues to this day to be expanded by force.

But far more important than that is that the powers that be had no right to give other people’s land away. The fate of the land should have been determined by the people who lived there, *all* of them. This was not the case. What in fact happened was that a puppet army of European crusader-colonialists seized control of the land from its indigenous inhabitants and continue to control it and to exploit those indigenous inhabitants to this day.

The Brits had no more right to give Palestine to thier Jewish puppets than they did to to give northern Ireland to their Scottish puppets. Imperialism is imperialism. Colonialism is colonialism. It all wrong, no matter who they do it to.


> Is it wrong when it's done to jews, forcing jews to roam around the world for 1300 years? Jews originated from there.

Nothing, I repeat nothing, that was ever done to any Jew anywhere can even remotely
justify what is being done to the people of Palestine. Two wrongs do not make a right.


>You act like it was immoral for jews to immigrate decade after decade to a TERRITORY that was not yet a state and to be given control of that territory by the people who maintained control of it.

I have no problem with Jewish immigration into Palestine. As far as I am concerned, as far as any anarchist is concerned, borders are artificial constructs that belong on the trash heap of history. People have a right to live where ever they can make themselves welcome. What I, and all just and moral people object to, is not that Jews immigrate, but that they have taken over. No one has the right to take over.


>P.S. Again, 80% of "Palestine" became JORDAN. Stop pretending an entire country was "taken" and given to jews.

Your begging the question here. I don’t what you call what was taken over, or how big a piece of whatever you say it was taken over from you say it was. Size doesn’t matter. Whatever it was and however big, it was taken over. No one has the right to take over land foe any reason, least of all their ethnicity. It is wrong to take over a single house, It is wrong to take over an entire continent. It doesn’t matter either who does it. It was wrong for Arabs to take over Jewish homes. It is wrong for Jews to take over Arab homes. It’s wrong to take over anybody’s homes. Control of land rightfully belongs to the people who live on it, *all* the people, not just the ones who had the right mothers.

Good responses. When I see "the left" practicing what you just preached, and spending a PROPORTIONATE amount of time calling for the end of all the theocratic and dictatorship muslim/arab nations and other such nations as you do for the jewish nation, I'll say nothing.

There are about 6 million israeli jews who make up the bulk of israel, and there are hundreds of millions of arabs (mostly muslim) making up the middle east nations. Do the math (6 million jewish israelis vs hundreds of millions of arabs - 1 to 100?) and spend a proportionate amount of time demanding that countries straighten themselves out, and you'll magically find an infinitely less amount of opposition to your demands from the average semi-political person who cares about israel and the people in it.

Of course, I don't really expect a 100 (arabs) to 1 (jews) ratio of activism/movements/etc., or even 50 to 1, or 20 to 1, or even 10 to 1. Say, 2 to 1 or 1 to 1 would be a HUGE improvement. PROPORTIONATION AND BALANCE when applying standards, and not singling out, is the only demand of a LOT - I mean a LOT - of people like me. And again, people like me are not the problem on this planet. Because I don't promote hurting others, I am merely trying to defend my people from absurd exaggerated singling out, something the UN has enjoyed doing for decades (sudan can have slavery, rwanada can massacre, UN doesn't care about they're busy on israel, etc.) and something "the left" now does daily.

Still gonna call me a "racist asshole" because I want PROPORTIONAL, BALANCED criticism and equal standards? Gonna call me shit because I wonder why every day there's "anti-zionist" stuff around the world, yet saudia arabia, with 10 (guessing) times more people and 100 times more land is blatantly worse - yet I have NEVER, EVER IN MY ENTIRE LIFE seen a "break saudia arabia" up movement? Shoudldn't you want to boycott saudia arabia before israel? No? Fine, whatever. Later.

Oh yeah, and for the record, since I assume some jackass will pipe in and spew this crap: NO, I'm not saying "hey, ignore what israel does because others do worse stuff." I'm saying, when israel is a tiny sliver of the world yet receives an insanely giant bulk of focus and is constantly placed under a microscope when nations who are far worse in almost every day (or even some ways) almost never, ever get even MENTIONED, something is wrong.

>Israel is a tiny sliver of the world yet receives an insanely giant bulk of focus


Israel does indeed receive a greater percentage of the media’s attention than do most countries, especially countries that size. The vast overwhelming majority of the English language coverage shows Israel in a positive light, virtually all of the time. On the internet, there are only few dozen sites where Israel is criticized at all. This is one of them. Even here, coverage and discussion of Israel takes up only part of the available space. It is not the primary focus of SF-IMC’s attention.

This is not “an insanely giant bulk of focus.” This is one facet on one grain of sand on the beach of global media. If it look like “an insanely giant bulk of focus” to you, it is because you have tunnel vision. You simply aren’t paying enough attention to all the rest of what goes on in the media, let alone the internet, let alone this single website. Your field of view is limited by social, cultural and ideological blinders that only let you notice what you believe to be important. Your blinders are a form of psychopathology. They negatively impact your ability to reason, as swell as you ability to perceive. You’re not, as we say in America, playing with a full deck.

Or at least that’s one theory. The other theory is that you are perfectly rational, extremely clever, know exactly what’s really going on, and are lying through your teeth about it in hope that our reading audience is actually as dumb as you take them for. Puh-leeez. Don’t insult their intelligence. This is not a random selection of yokels you’re talking to. This is one of the more politically sophisticated demographics on earth. They’re on to you. And they don’t like it one bit that you have tried to play them for chumps.

There’s a third theory. It holds that you, personally, don’t really care about all this, one way or the other. You’re just writing what you’re paid to write, just (as the saying goes) “doing your job.”

So which is it? Are you self-centered, stupid, crazy, lying or a whore?

What the fuck are you talking about? I CORRECTLY pointed out that in the "PEACE ACTIVIST" world, Israel receives a heavily disproportionate amount of exaggerated negative attention, while other places that are larger and worse barely get mentioned.

I wasn't talking about the corporate media you retarded piece of shit.

anti-zionist asked me if I'm "self-centered, stupid, crazy, lying or a whore?"

MY RESPONSE: Stop describing your mother and stick to the topic at hand. Just because she's a diseased, self-centered whore who did the world a disservie by spewing y ou out of her doesn't mean you have the right to take the jewish homeland away from the jews. Thanks.

. . . a heavily disproportionate amount of exaggerated negative attention"

Well of course it does. Israel is a modern Sparta. It produces a heavily disproportionate amount of of war, aggression and oppression. Peace activists pretty much ignore countries like Iceland, Costa Rica and Tuvalu because their citizens tend to behave like decent, civilized, neighborly human beings. Israelis behave like a bunch of thugs. Of course they attract negative attention. They deserve it. If anything, they deserve *more* negative attention. They don't get nearly enough.

Congo Tibet & Irian jaya how much have you heard of these three places in the news lately? And that is only a start.

And, of course, peace activists ignore Canada as well, being the friendly, civilized, peace loving folk that we are.

I totally agree with the excellent response by "well, duh" above. Wonder why others cannot grasp this glaringly obvious fact???

(Well, I guess this will get Scottie back on this thread in a flash, yes?)

Wow! Who let him out?

Sorry, I don't understand your point. Would you please explain? Thanks!

I did not write this post entitled "Sorry".

I have no idea what any of you are talking about, all I know is that I agree with everything that anyone against Israel says, even if it's totally illogical in every way.

For example, when the gentleman above correctly pointed out that "peace" activists single Israel out while intentionally ignoring equal or worse crimes committed elsewhere, and a crazed dishonest asshole chimed in saying "what, you want us to focus on canada and costa rica?" A logical, educated person would respond with "Obviously not, but how about saudia arabia, pakistan, china, etc.?) but being Angie I just went and agreed with the moronic, illogical statement "well, duh" made above, because it was anti-israel, and that's all that matters.

I'm a fucking dumbass but at least I am consistent! Consistently dumb, but consistent!

Hi, im a Black slave, working my ass off in the hot desert of SUDAN. THANX sooooo much to the lefties for campaigning for my freedom. You might be a little busy with Israel, and all the evil inhumane things it does to the poor palestinians, but remember me too please. I am suffering here, just because I am a Christian and Black. Wait, My muslim sudanese master is calling me, its time to get branded......Please try to get at least ONE UN RESOLUTION passed condemning SUDAN!!! Cya

For the record this is not my post. Someone forged it.

Incidentally to whoever you are, not only are you an embarrassment to humanity, but you can't even read.

To the black slave in Sudan: I would love to help you out, but you see, I only fight for causes that are anti-Israel and anti-Zionist. Im sure its not too bad where you are. At least you dont live in racist, aparteid, zionist state. Oh wait, you are oppressed. Oh well, sorry about that chum, being Angie, I can help you, because I feel that if I criticize an Muslim country, I will be branded an islamophobe by Windy Wendy. I'd better stick to anti-zionist, it has a better kick to it.

I DID NOT WRITE THE FOLLOWING POSTS

"CONFUSED"

"WELL"