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INDYMEDIA IDIOTS WAKE UP: VENEZUELAN COUP THREAT
Why isn't Indymedia covering a possible imminent coup in Venezuela?
Why the hell aren't you Indymedia idiots covering the possible coup in Venezuela? Even Hugo Chavez himself has warned about an imminent coup, yet Indymedia continues to ignore the issue.
Even a prominent mouthpiece of the American "free press" such as the Washington Post has been desperately calling for American intervention in Venezuela--all to "prevent instability" of course.
http://dc.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=40869&group=webcast
And here is a post on the Indymedia newswire warning about an imminent coup attempt tonight (12-9-02). At the very least, it deserves investigation.
http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=222059&group=webcast
It is Indymedia 'activists' that are forever running their mouth about promoting "grassroots democracy" yet you ignore the issue when grassroots democracy is currently being threatened in Venezuela by the capitalist oligarchy--and their American backers.
I wonder why Indymedia is ignoring this issue. Is it because you are afraid to admit that the Bush Regime and America are behind this obvious destabilization campaign--just as they had a hand in the original coup attempt in April 2002. History is repeating itself, and the coup plotters are getting more desperate. The strikes, protests, and now made to order shootings are all designed to create instability and justify a violent and antidemocratic regime change.
Are you ignoring Venezuela because you have been distracted by the impending American attack on Iraq? In case you hadn't figured out yet, American formented coups/regime changes over the entire world are all part of a broader militaristic program. These coup attempts are motivated by a desire to expand the power of the global American Empire in general and colonize/steal other nations' oil resources in particular.
If you in Indymedia wait until the coup in Venezuela happens, it will be too damn late. Is that what you want?
Get the word out about a Coup Danger in Venezuela now, before it is too late.
http://www.narconews.com/Issue26/article556.html
http://www.narconews.com/Issue26/article555.html
Even a prominent mouthpiece of the American "free press" such as the Washington Post has been desperately calling for American intervention in Venezuela--all to "prevent instability" of course.
http://dc.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=40869&group=webcast
And here is a post on the Indymedia newswire warning about an imminent coup attempt tonight (12-9-02). At the very least, it deserves investigation.
http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=222059&group=webcast
It is Indymedia 'activists' that are forever running their mouth about promoting "grassroots democracy" yet you ignore the issue when grassroots democracy is currently being threatened in Venezuela by the capitalist oligarchy--and their American backers.
I wonder why Indymedia is ignoring this issue. Is it because you are afraid to admit that the Bush Regime and America are behind this obvious destabilization campaign--just as they had a hand in the original coup attempt in April 2002. History is repeating itself, and the coup plotters are getting more desperate. The strikes, protests, and now made to order shootings are all designed to create instability and justify a violent and antidemocratic regime change.
Are you ignoring Venezuela because you have been distracted by the impending American attack on Iraq? In case you hadn't figured out yet, American formented coups/regime changes over the entire world are all part of a broader militaristic program. These coup attempts are motivated by a desire to expand the power of the global American Empire in general and colonize/steal other nations' oil resources in particular.
If you in Indymedia wait until the coup in Venezuela happens, it will be too damn late. Is that what you want?
Get the word out about a Coup Danger in Venezuela now, before it is too late.
http://www.narconews.com/Issue26/article556.html
http://www.narconews.com/Issue26/article555.html
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"admit that the Bush Regime and America are behind this obvious destabilization campaign"
Christ. What are you smoking? I despise the Bush administration, but obviously you have some issues to work out. Repeat after me, Americans are not responsible for all evil of the world (even under Bush). Take some responsibility for God's sake.
While a coup may occur in Venezuela that is not what is currently happening. What is currently going on is a stike by a large percentage of the population. We can argue whether they are the majority or not, but it is obvious they their numbers are significant. If you can accept this you've obviously blinded by Chave's retoric.
It is ironic that a man the attempted to overthrow a democracticly electec government was overthrow himself, if only for a short while.
It is ironic that a ruler that decided to waste his time rewriting the constitution instead of solving his countries woes is now feeling the weight of the constitution and institutions he helped create.
It is ironic that a man that argued that referendums are the best way out a political crisiz refueses to allow a referundum on his rule.
As for the argument that the opposition to Chavez are nothing more than the elite basic math is sufficient to see the error of this argument.
If you follow Venezuela news you know that the opposition marches have attractes as many or more people than Chavez maches. All without bussing people from the interior of the country or offering something in return. In any case, at the very least they are of similar size.
If they represent who the total of Venezuelans feel, and keeping in mind that 70-90 percent of Venezuelans live near povertry or in it, then it is obvious that not all of the poor are with Chavez and that many are with the oppossion.
That is not to say that Chavez does not have supporters. He has many. But he does not have the majority he once has. He knows it, and that is why we will do anything to avoid a referendum.
Christ. What are you smoking? I despise the Bush administration, but obviously you have some issues to work out. Repeat after me, Americans are not responsible for all evil of the world (even under Bush). Take some responsibility for God's sake.
While a coup may occur in Venezuela that is not what is currently happening. What is currently going on is a stike by a large percentage of the population. We can argue whether they are the majority or not, but it is obvious they their numbers are significant. If you can accept this you've obviously blinded by Chave's retoric.
It is ironic that a man the attempted to overthrow a democracticly electec government was overthrow himself, if only for a short while.
It is ironic that a ruler that decided to waste his time rewriting the constitution instead of solving his countries woes is now feeling the weight of the constitution and institutions he helped create.
It is ironic that a man that argued that referendums are the best way out a political crisiz refueses to allow a referundum on his rule.
As for the argument that the opposition to Chavez are nothing more than the elite basic math is sufficient to see the error of this argument.
If you follow Venezuela news you know that the opposition marches have attractes as many or more people than Chavez maches. All without bussing people from the interior of the country or offering something in return. In any case, at the very least they are of similar size.
If they represent who the total of Venezuelans feel, and keeping in mind that 70-90 percent of Venezuelans live near povertry or in it, then it is obvious that not all of the poor are with Chavez and that many are with the oppossion.
That is not to say that Chavez does not have supporters. He has many. But he does not have the majority he once has. He knows it, and that is why we will do anything to avoid a referendum.
(1.) If you want us to look kindly upon your desires, phrase them politely. You'll catch more flies with honey than you will with vinegar.
(2.) Why haven't YOU written something and posted it before now? YOU are as much a part of the process as we are. We're not even in Venezuela. Are you? If so, start filing reports. Please don't use such vulgar language. Children read this. So do many adults who find vulgar language alienating. When you talk like that, you just make yourself and your cause look bad. Is that the effect you are trying for here?
(3.) We are all volunteers. Our time and our resources are limited. We have jobs, families, pets and sleep taking up our time, as well as what we do here. You are being extremely rude to make demands of us. We don’t make demands of you, let alone start them off by cursing and calling you names. Please, show some common human courtesy. Learn to say please, thank you and you’re welcome. Just because you are safe behind the internet doesn’t give you leave to behave in ways that would get you smacked upside the head if we were face to face.
Or do you even realize that that’s what you’re doing. Maybe you don’t. OK, here’s how to educate yourself. Walk up to ten total strangers, curse each one and call them all idiots. Count on how many of them slug you for it. Perform the experiment a number of times, each in a different kind of neighborhood. Tell us what you learn.
(4.) We are SF-IMC. Our first responsibility is to cover our local area, because not only is it something nobody else can do better, it’s something nobody else can do at all.
(2.) Why haven't YOU written something and posted it before now? YOU are as much a part of the process as we are. We're not even in Venezuela. Are you? If so, start filing reports. Please don't use such vulgar language. Children read this. So do many adults who find vulgar language alienating. When you talk like that, you just make yourself and your cause look bad. Is that the effect you are trying for here?
(3.) We are all volunteers. Our time and our resources are limited. We have jobs, families, pets and sleep taking up our time, as well as what we do here. You are being extremely rude to make demands of us. We don’t make demands of you, let alone start them off by cursing and calling you names. Please, show some common human courtesy. Learn to say please, thank you and you’re welcome. Just because you are safe behind the internet doesn’t give you leave to behave in ways that would get you smacked upside the head if we were face to face.
Or do you even realize that that’s what you’re doing. Maybe you don’t. OK, here’s how to educate yourself. Walk up to ten total strangers, curse each one and call them all idiots. Count on how many of them slug you for it. Perform the experiment a number of times, each in a different kind of neighborhood. Tell us what you learn.
(4.) We are SF-IMC. Our first responsibility is to cover our local area, because not only is it something nobody else can do better, it’s something nobody else can do at all.
Commenter #1, the Bush administration supported a previous coup several months ago in Venezuela that failed, and it made them look bad, or it would have made them look bad if international issues were actually covered in the press here instead of just Winona Ryder.
>Or do you even realize that that?s what you?re doing. Maybe you don?t. OK, here?s how to educate yourself. >Walk up to ten total strangers, curse each one and call them all idiots. Count on how many of them slug you for >it. Perform the experiment a number of times, each in a >different kind of neighborhood. Tell us what you learn.
Harmony Korine who wrote 'Kids' and did the movie 'Gummo' did something like this recently: Heimlich: You'd provoke people until they hit you?
Korine: I would go around with a camera crew, and the only rules were that I couldn't throw the first punch and the person I was confronting had to be bigger than me. Because that's where the humor comes in. It wouldn't be funny if I was fighting someone my size. They had to be bigger than me, and no matter how bad I was getting beat up--unless I was gonna die, that was the rule, unless I was like passed out and they were still killing me--they couldn't break it up. Because that's were the comedy comes in as well.
continued: http://beebo.org/smackerels/fight-club.html
>Or do you even realize that that?s what you?re doing. Maybe you don?t. OK, here?s how to educate yourself. >Walk up to ten total strangers, curse each one and call them all idiots. Count on how many of them slug you for >it. Perform the experiment a number of times, each in a >different kind of neighborhood. Tell us what you learn.
Harmony Korine who wrote 'Kids' and did the movie 'Gummo' did something like this recently: Heimlich: You'd provoke people until they hit you?
Korine: I would go around with a camera crew, and the only rules were that I couldn't throw the first punch and the person I was confronting had to be bigger than me. Because that's where the humor comes in. It wouldn't be funny if I was fighting someone my size. They had to be bigger than me, and no matter how bad I was getting beat up--unless I was gonna die, that was the rule, unless I was like passed out and they were still killing me--they couldn't break it up. Because that's were the comedy comes in as well.
continued: http://beebo.org/smackerels/fight-club.html
"You'll catch more flies with honey than you will with vinegar"
Using a flyswatter or bugspray works alot better than honey... acting sweet only gets one so far especially when confronting the largest Imperialist power in world history....
http://www.narconews.com
Using a flyswatter or bugspray works alot better than honey... acting sweet only gets one so far especially when confronting the largest Imperialist power in world history....
http://www.narconews.com
"Supported the previous coup" is quite different from ""admit that the Bush Regime and America are behind this obvious destabilization campaign". Bush shed no tears when Chavez was brought down. Then again so did several other governments. But it is easier for people to blame America for their woes than to take responsibility for their situation. America is responsible for many maladies in the world, but usually it takes two to tango.
Disapointingly Indymedia is not particularly know for being factual. It has an agenda just like all other media outlets.
I consider myself a leftist but it saddens me when leftist defend Chavez simply because he likes to rally against "neo-liberalism", nevermind his economic policies are no different than his predecesors.
Disapointingly Indymedia is not particularly know for being factual. It has an agenda just like all other media outlets.
I consider myself a leftist but it saddens me when leftist defend Chavez simply because he likes to rally against "neo-liberalism", nevermind his economic policies are no different than his predecesors.
>acting sweet only gets one so far especially when confronting the largest Imperialist power in world history....
We're not them. We us. When you're talking to them, say (and do) whatever it takes. When you're talking to us, or to any ally or potential ally, show some common courtesy. Don't alienate people who might otherwise want to help you and help your cause (whatever that may be).
We're not them. We us. When you're talking to them, say (and do) whatever it takes. When you're talking to us, or to any ally or potential ally, show some common courtesy. Don't alienate people who might otherwise want to help you and help your cause (whatever that may be).
I'm here in Venezuela. Whatever wording you want to use, wether it be such a democratic term as "strike" or a commie term such as "coup" the fact is we don't want this guy as president. And I'm not on the American payroll, the CIA doesn't contact me to tell me what is right and wrong in my country. I go out to the streets everyday and do what I can peacefully to demonstrate that I'm tired of this guy trying to force his communist shit on my country. To tell the world that I don't want my oil being sold to Catro for cheap. To tell the world that this isn't a rich against poor, but ignorance against reality. To tell the world that the only thing my family owns, a house, bought through years of hard work and keeping good credit is not going to be taken away by the government and split up with 10 poor families, as his land reform suggests. I am not rich. In fact, when the strike is over I will hopefully go back to two jobs. Oligarch is a word popularized by Chavez to create the social divide that keeps him alive. What the world needs to understand, and can be easily seen in the news, is that we don't sit here with our thumbs up our ass while Castro is born again under our nose. And if the U.S. tries to come here and run us, we will act the same way. Let the world hear that we're the Republic of Venezuela, the people that freed damn near half of South America and will do it all over again if we have to. Not ONE STEP BACK.
Ricardo I am a little confused, you want to force your ideas on others and at the same time you do not want that others put forwards their ideas. I am very doubts that Chavez is able to put forward any communist program whatsoever. The parasites are going to do for him and do not worry these parasites are from USA!
What I am more surprised is that you allow corporates put their agenda on Venezuela without even you are realising that, I am very surprised and confused.
Freedom is more important than anything else, I think. What does it mean to you to be better off economically and politically handycapped? Do you look to the other people? or you are looking for yourself?
Chazez had the majority of votes in Venezuela, more than Nicaragua, Salvador, Colombia and Panama. In these stases there no free elections at all, CIA put a lot of pressure to have results and they use slaughtering people to have that results.
I am against Chavez because is ludricous to reform Venezuela economic system when there is US and oligarchy pressure to have everything in thier way.
Are you sure that you do not want to see oil sold to Cuba because is was sold (your words) cheap or because you have a right-wing mentality and obviously you have to follow what US and other leaders before Chavez sayed about Cuba ?
Are you able to enlighten us about it?
What Chavez did that you think is communistic?
I am against capitalism, this economic system is good for parasites but not for the majority of the people. You should come in this country US to see for yourself. Corporations and their presidents become more and more richer, the working class more poorer.
Remember who created and is creating wealth is working class, the others are mere stealing what they never reap.
What I am more surprised is that you allow corporates put their agenda on Venezuela without even you are realising that, I am very surprised and confused.
Freedom is more important than anything else, I think. What does it mean to you to be better off economically and politically handycapped? Do you look to the other people? or you are looking for yourself?
Chazez had the majority of votes in Venezuela, more than Nicaragua, Salvador, Colombia and Panama. In these stases there no free elections at all, CIA put a lot of pressure to have results and they use slaughtering people to have that results.
I am against Chavez because is ludricous to reform Venezuela economic system when there is US and oligarchy pressure to have everything in thier way.
Are you sure that you do not want to see oil sold to Cuba because is was sold (your words) cheap or because you have a right-wing mentality and obviously you have to follow what US and other leaders before Chavez sayed about Cuba ?
Are you able to enlighten us about it?
What Chavez did that you think is communistic?
I am against capitalism, this economic system is good for parasites but not for the majority of the people. You should come in this country US to see for yourself. Corporations and their presidents become more and more richer, the working class more poorer.
Remember who created and is creating wealth is working class, the others are mere stealing what they never reap.
I am the teenage son of two Venezuelan immigrants
who worked hard and are now middle-class Americans in this "parasitic" and Capitalist society.
We still have relatives in Venezuela, ALL of whom are supporting the strike because of Chavez's policies.
These relatives range from dirt poor to moderately
wealthy. Something I have always been amazed at is how the media always refers to Castro, Chavez, etc.
as "President" and not "Dictator", their rightful title...
Well, just my $0.02
Victor
Here is a quote for you liberals:
"This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future"
ADOLF HITLER - 1935
who worked hard and are now middle-class Americans in this "parasitic" and Capitalist society.
We still have relatives in Venezuela, ALL of whom are supporting the strike because of Chavez's policies.
These relatives range from dirt poor to moderately
wealthy. Something I have always been amazed at is how the media always refers to Castro, Chavez, etc.
as "President" and not "Dictator", their rightful title...
Well, just my $0.02
Victor
Here is a quote for you liberals:
"This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future"
ADOLF HITLER - 1935
"Castro, Chavez, etc. "
Unlike Castro, Chavez was elected and is the middle of his term as President.
July 30, 2000
"CARACAS, Venezuela -- Venezuelans voted overwhelmingly Sunday to re-elect President Hugo Chavez -- giving the left-leaning nationalist a fresh six year term.
With 77 percent of the votes counted late Sunday, Chavez had 59 percent, while his nearest challenger, former Zulia state Gov. Francisco Arias Cardenas, received 37 percent.
Moments after the vote was announced, Chavez began to address thousands of cheering supporters from the balcony of the presidential palace -- the "balcony of the people," as Chavez called it.
"
http://www.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/americas/07/30/venezuela.elections.02/
Unlike Castro, Chavez was elected and is the middle of his term as President.
July 30, 2000
"CARACAS, Venezuela -- Venezuelans voted overwhelmingly Sunday to re-elect President Hugo Chavez -- giving the left-leaning nationalist a fresh six year term.
With 77 percent of the votes counted late Sunday, Chavez had 59 percent, while his nearest challenger, former Zulia state Gov. Francisco Arias Cardenas, received 37 percent.
Moments after the vote was announced, Chavez began to address thousands of cheering supporters from the balcony of the presidential palace -- the "balcony of the people," as Chavez called it.
"
http://www.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/americas/07/30/venezuela.elections.02/
I think he lost his right to be called an elected "president' when he refused the
referendum to vote a new President in.
He no longer has the vote of the people,
so he must now use the strongarm tactics
of a dictator.
Victor
referendum to vote a new President in.
He no longer has the vote of the people,
so he must now use the strongarm tactics
of a dictator.
Victor
you cant just call an off year election...
maybe you should be able to, but I cant think of too many countries that allow it...
maybe you should be able to, but I cant think of too many countries that allow it...
The US is very worried about oil disruptions during the new Gulf War (especially if the conflict spills over into Saudi Arabia) SO, the US is looking to its next major supplier and wants a strong US ally.
One way or another the US will get a puppet in power probably resulting in instability and an endless Civil War a la Colombia....
One way or another the US will get a puppet in power probably resulting in instability and an endless Civil War a la Colombia....
I think that when a majority (or close to it)
of people are holding a massive strike and
asking you to step down, it is kind of different
case. It is not very often that something of this
magnitude happens....
Victor
of people are holding a massive strike and
asking you to step down, it is kind of different
case. It is not very often that something of this
magnitude happens....
Victor
Racist rage of the Caracas elite
Venezuela's embattled president faces a Pinochet-style opposition
Richard Gott
Tuesday December 10, 2002
The Guardian
Pilin Leon, a former Miss Venezuela, was busy judging the Miss World competition in London on Saturday when the oil tanker that bears her name, illegally at anchor in Lake Maracaibo (principal source of Venezuela's oil), was boarded by Venezuelan marines. The end of history was supposed to mean an end to class struggle, but the current political conflict in Venezuela suggests it is alive and well.
When the captain of the Pilin Leon first dropped anchor, he was expressing his solidarity with the anti-government strike in Caracas. But the tanker's crew were opposed the strike and their captain's piratical action. When the marines boarded, on the orders of the embattled president Hugo Chavez, only the captain needed to be replaced.
For the past year or more, Venezuela's upper and middle classes, opposed to Chavez's government, have protested in the wealthy new neighbourhoods of Caracas, while the poor (the vast majority of the city's population) have come from their shantytowns and demonstrated to defend "their" president.
Chavez celebrated his overwhelming electoral victory of four years ago at the weekend, at the end of a week-long insurrectionary strike designed to force him to resign, and so far he has displayed a Houdini-like capacity to escape from tight situations. In April, a similar scenario led to a brief coup d'etat, from which he was rescued by an alliance between the poor and the armed forces, and this time, the president says, he will not allow himself to be surprised.
The opposition has been hoping to repeat in December what it failed to achieve in April, but the situation is no longer the same. The armed forces are now more solidly behind the president than before. The most conservative generals no longer hold important commands; those involved in the April coup attempt have all been sent into retirement.
The international situation is different, too. The US welcomed the April coup, but this time, with more important problems elsewhere, Washington is being more circumspect. It has publicly thrown its weight behind the negotiations being conducted by Cesar Gaviria, the Colombian ex-president who leads the Organisation of American States.
Perhaps even more significant than the changing attitude of the military and of the US is the fact that the poor are more mobilised now, to such an extent that there is talk of a possible civil war. Until the April coup, the poor had voted for Chavez repeatedly, but his revolutionary programme was directed from above, without much popular participation. After the coup, which revealed that the opposition sought to impose a regime on Pinochet lines, the people realised that they had a government that they needed to defend. The opposition's protest marches have now conjured up a phenomenon that most of the middle and upper classes might have preferred to have left sleeping - the spectre of a class and race war.
Opposition spokesmen complain that Chavez is a leftist who is leading the country to economic chaos, but underlying the fierce hatred is the terror of the country's white elite when faced with the mobilised mass of the population, who are black, Indian and mestizo. Only a racism that dates back five centuries - of the European settlers towards their African slaves and the country's indigenous inhabitants - can adequately explain the degree of hatred aroused. Chavez - who is more black and Indian than white, and makes no secret of his aim to be the president of the poor - is the focus of this racist rage.
The trump card of the opposition, in April as in December, has been the state-owned oil company, Petroleos de Venezuela, often described as the fifth largest oil exporter in the world, and an important supplier to the US. Nationalised more than 25 years ago, it has been run over the years for the exclusive benefit of its employees and managers - its profits being invested everywhere except Venezuela. Before the arrival of Chavez, it was being prepared for privatisation, to the satisfaction of the engineers and directors who would have benefited. But with a block placed on privatisation by the new Venezuelan constitution, the company's middle class and prosperous elite has been happy to be used as a shock weapon by the leaders of the Pinochet-style opposition, and they have tried to bring their entire industry to a halt.
The vital task for Chavez is to bring the oil company back under government control, replacing the conservative management with the radical executives who had been forced out in earlier internal struggles. If he is to support the crews loyal to the government on tankers such as the Pilin Leon, he may yet need to impose a state of emergency to regain the upper hand.
· Richard Gott is the author of In The Shadow of the Liberator: Hugo Chavez and the Transformation of Venezuela
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,857027,00.html
Venezuela's embattled president faces a Pinochet-style opposition
Richard Gott
Tuesday December 10, 2002
The Guardian
Pilin Leon, a former Miss Venezuela, was busy judging the Miss World competition in London on Saturday when the oil tanker that bears her name, illegally at anchor in Lake Maracaibo (principal source of Venezuela's oil), was boarded by Venezuelan marines. The end of history was supposed to mean an end to class struggle, but the current political conflict in Venezuela suggests it is alive and well.
When the captain of the Pilin Leon first dropped anchor, he was expressing his solidarity with the anti-government strike in Caracas. But the tanker's crew were opposed the strike and their captain's piratical action. When the marines boarded, on the orders of the embattled president Hugo Chavez, only the captain needed to be replaced.
For the past year or more, Venezuela's upper and middle classes, opposed to Chavez's government, have protested in the wealthy new neighbourhoods of Caracas, while the poor (the vast majority of the city's population) have come from their shantytowns and demonstrated to defend "their" president.
Chavez celebrated his overwhelming electoral victory of four years ago at the weekend, at the end of a week-long insurrectionary strike designed to force him to resign, and so far he has displayed a Houdini-like capacity to escape from tight situations. In April, a similar scenario led to a brief coup d'etat, from which he was rescued by an alliance between the poor and the armed forces, and this time, the president says, he will not allow himself to be surprised.
The opposition has been hoping to repeat in December what it failed to achieve in April, but the situation is no longer the same. The armed forces are now more solidly behind the president than before. The most conservative generals no longer hold important commands; those involved in the April coup attempt have all been sent into retirement.
The international situation is different, too. The US welcomed the April coup, but this time, with more important problems elsewhere, Washington is being more circumspect. It has publicly thrown its weight behind the negotiations being conducted by Cesar Gaviria, the Colombian ex-president who leads the Organisation of American States.
Perhaps even more significant than the changing attitude of the military and of the US is the fact that the poor are more mobilised now, to such an extent that there is talk of a possible civil war. Until the April coup, the poor had voted for Chavez repeatedly, but his revolutionary programme was directed from above, without much popular participation. After the coup, which revealed that the opposition sought to impose a regime on Pinochet lines, the people realised that they had a government that they needed to defend. The opposition's protest marches have now conjured up a phenomenon that most of the middle and upper classes might have preferred to have left sleeping - the spectre of a class and race war.
Opposition spokesmen complain that Chavez is a leftist who is leading the country to economic chaos, but underlying the fierce hatred is the terror of the country's white elite when faced with the mobilised mass of the population, who are black, Indian and mestizo. Only a racism that dates back five centuries - of the European settlers towards their African slaves and the country's indigenous inhabitants - can adequately explain the degree of hatred aroused. Chavez - who is more black and Indian than white, and makes no secret of his aim to be the president of the poor - is the focus of this racist rage.
The trump card of the opposition, in April as in December, has been the state-owned oil company, Petroleos de Venezuela, often described as the fifth largest oil exporter in the world, and an important supplier to the US. Nationalised more than 25 years ago, it has been run over the years for the exclusive benefit of its employees and managers - its profits being invested everywhere except Venezuela. Before the arrival of Chavez, it was being prepared for privatisation, to the satisfaction of the engineers and directors who would have benefited. But with a block placed on privatisation by the new Venezuelan constitution, the company's middle class and prosperous elite has been happy to be used as a shock weapon by the leaders of the Pinochet-style opposition, and they have tried to bring their entire industry to a halt.
The vital task for Chavez is to bring the oil company back under government control, replacing the conservative management with the radical executives who had been forced out in earlier internal struggles. If he is to support the crews loyal to the government on tankers such as the Pilin Leon, he may yet need to impose a state of emergency to regain the upper hand.
· Richard Gott is the author of In The Shadow of the Liberator: Hugo Chavez and the Transformation of Venezuela
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,857027,00.html
There are large protests but they are being organized by the oil company. Its hard to tell by the size of the protests how large the opposition really is since there have been accusations that anyone at these companies who do not openly oppose Chavez will risk getting fired.
The conflicts between police and military are strange for any country and dont say anything of popular support (I guess that DID occur in the US during desegregation but the local police stood down immediately).
If the US is allowed to overthrow a democratic government to assure a constant oil supply during this new Gulf War no country is safe.
The conflicts between police and military are strange for any country and dont say anything of popular support (I guess that DID occur in the US during desegregation but the local police stood down immediately).
If the US is allowed to overthrow a democratic government to assure a constant oil supply during this new Gulf War no country is safe.
Let me see. The USA wants a steady source source of
oil, being that it is going to attack Iraq sometime in the near future. Well, what better way to do it than spontaneously start a "US backed coup" in a country
that treasures its freedom very greatly and has very
intelligent people living within its borders. A lot of these people are supporting the strike, asking Chavez to peacefully step down. As yet, they have not done any violent acts, (like ransacking a TV station, shooting 3 people, etc) Anyways, to get back to my point, If you wanted a steady source of oil, wouldn't it be better to LEAVE Chavez in power rather than throw the country into upheaval? Have you ever heard of "supply & demand?" If oil exports from the Middle East dried up,
Russia and Venezuela(under Chavez) would gladly step in and drill more oil for us, therefore taking market share away from the Middle East. How about
thinking before you post again, huh?
Victor
oil, being that it is going to attack Iraq sometime in the near future. Well, what better way to do it than spontaneously start a "US backed coup" in a country
that treasures its freedom very greatly and has very
intelligent people living within its borders. A lot of these people are supporting the strike, asking Chavez to peacefully step down. As yet, they have not done any violent acts, (like ransacking a TV station, shooting 3 people, etc) Anyways, to get back to my point, If you wanted a steady source of oil, wouldn't it be better to LEAVE Chavez in power rather than throw the country into upheaval? Have you ever heard of "supply & demand?" If oil exports from the Middle East dried up,
Russia and Venezuela(under Chavez) would gladly step in and drill more oil for us, therefore taking market share away from the Middle East. How about
thinking before you post again, huh?
Victor
Please don't tell me what you THINK is going on.
I just got off the phone with my aunt Isabel and she
told me FIRSTHAND of the protests her FRIENDS(who don't work for the oil companies...) are organizing. Also,
she told me my grandpa almost got killed in Plaza Miraflores by Pro-Chavez supporters who acted with "great restraint" There is massive grassroots support for Chavez's resignation. What have you people been smoking?
Victor
I just got off the phone with my aunt Isabel and she
told me FIRSTHAND of the protests her FRIENDS(who don't work for the oil companies...) are organizing. Also,
she told me my grandpa almost got killed in Plaza Miraflores by Pro-Chavez supporters who acted with "great restraint" There is massive grassroots support for Chavez's resignation. What have you people been smoking?
Victor
"Tuesday, May 15, 2001
MOSCOW (UPI) - Russian President Vladimir Putin and leftist Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez declared Monday that they would form a strategic alliance against U.S. dominance as the world's only superpower.
Putin and Chavez, who had extensive talks, discovered that they had much in common. Chavez declared to the media that they were now "good friends."
"
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/5/14/171808.shtml
CNN On Benefits Of Getting Rid Of Chavez For US Oil Supply
"The resignation of Chavez, who is a strong supporter of OPEC's push to hike prices, appears to have eased those supply concerns, at least for now.
"With potentially a new military junta in effect there, we don't know what change there will be if any in Venezuelan OPEC policies, but clearly from the suppliers point of view, customers want to see their oil again," Peter Gignoux, an analyst at Schroder SSB, told CNN.
Oil prices reached a high of $27 a barrel earlier this week after Iraq said it was freezing exports for 30 days or until Israel ended its military offensive in the West Bank. Iran said it would join Iraq in suspending exports if other Muslim producers did the same.
"
http://www.cnn.com/2002/BUSINESS/04/12/oil.venezuela/
MOSCOW (UPI) - Russian President Vladimir Putin and leftist Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez declared Monday that they would form a strategic alliance against U.S. dominance as the world's only superpower.
Putin and Chavez, who had extensive talks, discovered that they had much in common. Chavez declared to the media that they were now "good friends."
"
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/5/14/171808.shtml
CNN On Benefits Of Getting Rid Of Chavez For US Oil Supply
"The resignation of Chavez, who is a strong supporter of OPEC's push to hike prices, appears to have eased those supply concerns, at least for now.
"With potentially a new military junta in effect there, we don't know what change there will be if any in Venezuelan OPEC policies, but clearly from the suppliers point of view, customers want to see their oil again," Peter Gignoux, an analyst at Schroder SSB, told CNN.
Oil prices reached a high of $27 a barrel earlier this week after Iraq said it was freezing exports for 30 days or until Israel ended its military offensive in the West Bank. Iran said it would join Iraq in suspending exports if other Muslim producers did the same.
"
http://www.cnn.com/2002/BUSINESS/04/12/oil.venezuela/
You may be there, but fortunately, you don't represent the entire population, or even know what the majority thinks - how could you when your media appears to be just as bought off as ours are?
Someone could also be on the phone right here in the US, during the Nov 2000 coup in Florida, talking about how everyone 'supports' Bush, so they force the vote count to stop. From their view, this is how it is, and how it should be.
Who cares if we have to change the laws to force an unelected president into power? So what if the Supreme Court bypasses the Congress and installs him into office?
That could also be you on the phone now.
Someone could also be on the phone right here in the US, during the Nov 2000 coup in Florida, talking about how everyone 'supports' Bush, so they force the vote count to stop. From their view, this is how it is, and how it should be.
Who cares if we have to change the laws to force an unelected president into power? So what if the Supreme Court bypasses the Congress and installs him into office?
That could also be you on the phone now.
Mexico City El Universal (conservative), April 15: The social sectors not in agreement with the policies implemented by Hugo Chávez can fight against those policies, but only within the framework stipulated by Venezuelan law. To try to do it by any other means is to enter into an area of illegality and political illegitimacy....A significant part of the failure of the attempt to overthrow the president was caused by the response to the insurrectionists from the international community, which refused to support or recognize a movement that had broken the constitutional framework.
Bogotá Cambio (liberal magazine), April 14: [Chávez’s] downfall was the most predictable event in the contemporary political history of a confused Latin America, but the methods used by a bizarre and disorganized opposition managed the impossible: In less than 48 hours the Venezuelan economic right transformed Chávez from a “crazy assassin” into a “martyr leader.”
—José Valdes
Madrid ABC (conservative), April 15: Pedro
Carmona’s main mistake in his short mandate was to trust in his forces and to believe that his decision to dissolve the National Assembly (democratically elected) would not meet a response. This was the beginning of the end for his project. Hugo Chávez, whose popularity had been waning in the last months, now faces the challenge of re-leading Venezuela, today more di-vided than ever, with a strengthened leadership; but [Chávez] also has an obligation to learn from the mistakes committed in the past, with double surveillance: that of the international community and that of his own army.
Kingston Jamaica Observer (independent), April 15: The tension of the Chávez period notwithstanding, Venezuela has been a relatively stable democracy for 40 years. In a democracy, power is won in a ballot box after a campaign of argument. If you veer from these principles, except in the most extreme circumstances, the risk is a long-term destabilization of democracy. Democracy, after all, is not about which personality we, individually, like or dislike. It is about the will of the people.
Rio de Janeiro Jornal Do Brasil (conservative), April 15: Latin America lives on the verge of a nervous breakdown. First in Paraguay, then in Ecuador and Argentina, and now in Venezuela: Presidents follow one another within a few hours, indicating the institutional instability of Latin American nations, as well as the gelatinous character of the societies that resulted from the transformations of the last few years, with their promises of stability and security. In Venezuela’s case, why did Hugo Chávez fall, why did he come back, and what energy can he still have to go on? Hugo Chávez was elected with 70 percent of the popular vote. He denounced—with reason—the country’s elites who, on a petroleum binge, dissipated the oil wealth...and failed to industrialize Venezuela or free it from the ups and downs of the oil market.
Santiago La Tercera (conservative), April 14: What do the convulsions in Hugo Chávez’s Venezuela and Fernando de la Rua’s Argentina have in common?...What traits do those countries share with Peru, Ecuador, and Paraguay, for example? Governments with questionable legitimacy, shaky economies, social instability, evidence of official corruption...the same Latin American tragedy of the 1980s, albeit to a lesser degree.
Havana Trabajadores (government-owned periodical), April 14: A historic journey culminated today in Venezuela with the return of President Hugo Chávez to his place at the helm of a reform process led by the Venezuelan people themselves. As thousands of Venezuelans remain in the streets to celebrate the recovery of constitutional order and the liberation of Chávez, the attempt to impose an extreme right-wing regime has been left in the dust.
http://www.worldpress.org/Africa/541.cfm
Bogotá Cambio (liberal magazine), April 14: [Chávez’s] downfall was the most predictable event in the contemporary political history of a confused Latin America, but the methods used by a bizarre and disorganized opposition managed the impossible: In less than 48 hours the Venezuelan economic right transformed Chávez from a “crazy assassin” into a “martyr leader.”
—José Valdes
Madrid ABC (conservative), April 15: Pedro
Carmona’s main mistake in his short mandate was to trust in his forces and to believe that his decision to dissolve the National Assembly (democratically elected) would not meet a response. This was the beginning of the end for his project. Hugo Chávez, whose popularity had been waning in the last months, now faces the challenge of re-leading Venezuela, today more di-vided than ever, with a strengthened leadership; but [Chávez] also has an obligation to learn from the mistakes committed in the past, with double surveillance: that of the international community and that of his own army.
Kingston Jamaica Observer (independent), April 15: The tension of the Chávez period notwithstanding, Venezuela has been a relatively stable democracy for 40 years. In a democracy, power is won in a ballot box after a campaign of argument. If you veer from these principles, except in the most extreme circumstances, the risk is a long-term destabilization of democracy. Democracy, after all, is not about which personality we, individually, like or dislike. It is about the will of the people.
Rio de Janeiro Jornal Do Brasil (conservative), April 15: Latin America lives on the verge of a nervous breakdown. First in Paraguay, then in Ecuador and Argentina, and now in Venezuela: Presidents follow one another within a few hours, indicating the institutional instability of Latin American nations, as well as the gelatinous character of the societies that resulted from the transformations of the last few years, with their promises of stability and security. In Venezuela’s case, why did Hugo Chávez fall, why did he come back, and what energy can he still have to go on? Hugo Chávez was elected with 70 percent of the popular vote. He denounced—with reason—the country’s elites who, on a petroleum binge, dissipated the oil wealth...and failed to industrialize Venezuela or free it from the ups and downs of the oil market.
Santiago La Tercera (conservative), April 14: What do the convulsions in Hugo Chávez’s Venezuela and Fernando de la Rua’s Argentina have in common?...What traits do those countries share with Peru, Ecuador, and Paraguay, for example? Governments with questionable legitimacy, shaky economies, social instability, evidence of official corruption...the same Latin American tragedy of the 1980s, albeit to a lesser degree.
Havana Trabajadores (government-owned periodical), April 14: A historic journey culminated today in Venezuela with the return of President Hugo Chávez to his place at the helm of a reform process led by the Venezuelan people themselves. As thousands of Venezuelans remain in the streets to celebrate the recovery of constitutional order and the liberation of Chávez, the attempt to impose an extreme right-wing regime has been left in the dust.
http://www.worldpress.org/Africa/541.cfm
My apologies to the volunteers at SFIMC collective for calling them idiots. Just a little frustrated at the lack of coverage on this issue--which is intimately connected to America's war drive against Iraq actually.
Also, I was referring to the lack of coverage on this issue in terms of the FEATURES page not newswire.
Again, apologies to the SFIMC collective. Below is a link to another article on this issue. It should help dispel any illusions that America had a primary hand in the April coup attempt and the current coup attempt now.
Also, note, some posters here suggest that they the Coup plotters want to "democratically" remove Chavez through a mid-term referendum in February 2002. What they forget to mention is the fact that Venezuela's constitution does provides for a referendum in August 2003. Why can't the Coup plotters wait that long? Why don't they follow the Constitution rather than forcing and contriving a thinly disguised "coup d'etat with a Democracy mask" with this Februrary 2003 election.
"Venezuela: Is the CIA preparing another coup?"
Also, I was referring to the lack of coverage on this issue in terms of the FEATURES page not newswire.
Again, apologies to the SFIMC collective. Below is a link to another article on this issue. It should help dispel any illusions that America had a primary hand in the April coup attempt and the current coup attempt now.
Also, note, some posters here suggest that they the Coup plotters want to "democratically" remove Chavez through a mid-term referendum in February 2002. What they forget to mention is the fact that Venezuela's constitution does provides for a referendum in August 2003. Why can't the Coup plotters wait that long? Why don't they follow the Constitution rather than forcing and contriving a thinly disguised "coup d'etat with a Democracy mask" with this Februrary 2003 election.
"Venezuela: Is the CIA preparing another coup?"
For more information:
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/dec2002/...
I AM VENEZUELAN
87% of Venezuela's population consists of POOR people.
The actual "strike" is promoted by media and industry
owners, who say the "majority" supports the strike.
Since dec 2, the TV media (four private stations) have suspended all normal transmissions (that is, there is no one of the regular shows on the air, not even TV ads, and instead, they have been all the time on, promoting the strike and the fall of the Government,
openly, and blatantly, 24 hours a day, NON STOP.)
So, with 80% of the population being poor, and with the rich guys promoting this strike (or disguised coup) DO YOU STILL HAVE DOUBTS ABOUT IT? DO YOU STILL THINK THAT 80% OF THE POOR PEOPLE ARE REALLY *AGAINST* CHAVEZ?.
Sorry, but that's not the truth. It's only the Media lie.
87% of Venezuela's population consists of POOR people.
The actual "strike" is promoted by media and industry
owners, who say the "majority" supports the strike.
Since dec 2, the TV media (four private stations) have suspended all normal transmissions (that is, there is no one of the regular shows on the air, not even TV ads, and instead, they have been all the time on, promoting the strike and the fall of the Government,
openly, and blatantly, 24 hours a day, NON STOP.)
So, with 80% of the population being poor, and with the rich guys promoting this strike (or disguised coup) DO YOU STILL HAVE DOUBTS ABOUT IT? DO YOU STILL THINK THAT 80% OF THE POOR PEOPLE ARE REALLY *AGAINST* CHAVEZ?.
Sorry, but that's not the truth. It's only the Media lie.
I AM VENEZUELAN
87% of Venezuela's population consists of POOR people.
The actual "strike" is promoted by media and industry
owners, who say the "majority" supports the strike.
Since dec 2, the TV media (four private stations) have suspended all normal transmissions (that is, there is no one of the regular shows on the air, not even TV ads, and instead, they have been all the time on, promoting the strike and the fall of the Government,
openly, and blatantly, 24 hours a day, NON STOP.
So, with 80% of poors, and the rich guys promoting this strike (or disguised coup) DO YOU STILL HAVE DOUBTS ABOUT IT? DO YOU STILL THINK THAT 80% OF THE POOR PEOPLE ARE REALLY *AGAINST* CHAVEZ?.
Sorry, but that's not the truth. It's only the big lie of the Media.
87% of Venezuela's population consists of POOR people.
The actual "strike" is promoted by media and industry
owners, who say the "majority" supports the strike.
Since dec 2, the TV media (four private stations) have suspended all normal transmissions (that is, there is no one of the regular shows on the air, not even TV ads, and instead, they have been all the time on, promoting the strike and the fall of the Government,
openly, and blatantly, 24 hours a day, NON STOP.
So, with 80% of poors, and the rich guys promoting this strike (or disguised coup) DO YOU STILL HAVE DOUBTS ABOUT IT? DO YOU STILL THINK THAT 80% OF THE POOR PEOPLE ARE REALLY *AGAINST* CHAVEZ?.
Sorry, but that's not the truth. It's only the big lie of the Media.
You make excellent points. I lived in the US for 6 years, I think I got a pretty good idea of what a full-blown capitalist structure feels like on the people. I had the good fortune of working for someone who came from poor-ass italian immigrant parents and worked his way from mopping floors to owning 2 sub shops. That's the good side of the capitalist system. The bad side of the capitalist system is that you have to mop floors to get to where you want, where as the socialist system feels everyone should mop floors or at least everyone should own what a person that mops floors has, to make it even.
I dont understand what you mean by saying you are against chavez because it is ludicruous to reform venezuela's economic system when the US and oligarchy are against it. If you are against him you should be regardless of what the opposing forces are.
Look, I voted for Chavez. His "IDEAS" seemed correct.
We are living the practice of it, and it does not work. And I will dare say he did do us a tremendous favor by pulling us away from the far right government we had, and finally brought it to everyone's attention that the poor people were being left behind. Now it's time to bring everything to a center.
Far right does not work, and far left does not work.
And the idea that this is all orchestrated by the US and the CIA is straight off Moulder's rhetoric in any X-Files episode. If they are pulling any strings, let them pull them, but as far as I'm concerned, I want Chavez out.
If after the fact they try to excert any amount of control over us, they will get the same reaction that Chavez is getting now, rest assured. There is rumour amongst officialism (chavez's side) that the "oligarchs" want to privatize PDVSA, our oil company. It won't happen, because then they will get the same reaction as Chavez is getting now too. This whole shit happening right now is people demonstrating their power, and now that it is known, there is nothing that can happen from here on in, that is against the people's will.
You also say that I am looking out for my own interests and not looking at the other people. Woud you mind telling me what else I can do, but get together with people of my own views and fight for that? If we are the majority, then we win. If we're not, we lose.
Castro is a man to be admired, simply because he has lasted over 40 years defending his ideals. I don't need the US to tell me he's the bad guy to make my own conclusions.
Look, a kid just spent 2 1/2 hours in -56 degrees in a jetliner's landing gear going to Canada trying to get the hell out of Cuba. If it was such a paradise, do you think people would do that? Have you ever sat down with any Cuban to talk about what goes on in the island to make your own conclusions, or do you just figure that what Castro says sounds great, it must work?
The majority of the people in Venezuela are poor. That is correct. Taking from that, if you figure what is portrayed by the media is correct, then 70% of the people are with Chavez.
One look at the amounts and types of people at protests will show you that that is not accurate, at best it's a close 50-50. I march right along people that can't even afford the cardboard to make a sign all the time.
I will dare say 60-40 with sixty being on my side.
Because people are poor it doesn't mean they're ignorant, our university system is public and higher education is available to everyone that wants it regardless of income. WORKERS are portesting. Even the SENIAT, our version of the IRS, has 30% of its workers on strike. Are they oligarchs? Oil workers, are they oligarchs? Bakers, restauranteurs, shop-owners.. they're corporate worms? I don't think so.
People see through the bullcrap, they realize that
businesses are being forced to close, and it's creating unemployment for them.
They see that Chavez is brainwashing new generations, their own sons by legislating a modified version of the Communist Manifesto, Che Guevara's ideology, into our elementary school system. That's not freedom of intellect.
They see that devaluating our coin against the dollar purposedly just alienates us from the rest of the world's economy even further, to put us at a greater loss.
They see that if they work hard enough to earn something, it could be taken away from them at any time. It's the people that want a free ride no matter what the consequences that are for him.
Chavez REPEATEDLY creates laws skipping right through our National Assembly (somewhat like Congress in Washington), because he could. Is there anything more commie than that? No one took a stand up to now.
Until someone comes up with a truly centered system that provides a true democracy, capitalism is the system that provides the best way for people to work their way to wherever they want to be. It's a sad truth. Anything else are just ideals that are better left to romantic rhetoric in books about the poor and the rich, parasites and the oppressed, that will hopefully someday inspire a truly balanced system.
I dont understand what you mean by saying you are against chavez because it is ludicruous to reform venezuela's economic system when the US and oligarchy are against it. If you are against him you should be regardless of what the opposing forces are.
Look, I voted for Chavez. His "IDEAS" seemed correct.
We are living the practice of it, and it does not work. And I will dare say he did do us a tremendous favor by pulling us away from the far right government we had, and finally brought it to everyone's attention that the poor people were being left behind. Now it's time to bring everything to a center.
Far right does not work, and far left does not work.
And the idea that this is all orchestrated by the US and the CIA is straight off Moulder's rhetoric in any X-Files episode. If they are pulling any strings, let them pull them, but as far as I'm concerned, I want Chavez out.
If after the fact they try to excert any amount of control over us, they will get the same reaction that Chavez is getting now, rest assured. There is rumour amongst officialism (chavez's side) that the "oligarchs" want to privatize PDVSA, our oil company. It won't happen, because then they will get the same reaction as Chavez is getting now too. This whole shit happening right now is people demonstrating their power, and now that it is known, there is nothing that can happen from here on in, that is against the people's will.
You also say that I am looking out for my own interests and not looking at the other people. Woud you mind telling me what else I can do, but get together with people of my own views and fight for that? If we are the majority, then we win. If we're not, we lose.
Castro is a man to be admired, simply because he has lasted over 40 years defending his ideals. I don't need the US to tell me he's the bad guy to make my own conclusions.
Look, a kid just spent 2 1/2 hours in -56 degrees in a jetliner's landing gear going to Canada trying to get the hell out of Cuba. If it was such a paradise, do you think people would do that? Have you ever sat down with any Cuban to talk about what goes on in the island to make your own conclusions, or do you just figure that what Castro says sounds great, it must work?
The majority of the people in Venezuela are poor. That is correct. Taking from that, if you figure what is portrayed by the media is correct, then 70% of the people are with Chavez.
One look at the amounts and types of people at protests will show you that that is not accurate, at best it's a close 50-50. I march right along people that can't even afford the cardboard to make a sign all the time.
I will dare say 60-40 with sixty being on my side.
Because people are poor it doesn't mean they're ignorant, our university system is public and higher education is available to everyone that wants it regardless of income. WORKERS are portesting. Even the SENIAT, our version of the IRS, has 30% of its workers on strike. Are they oligarchs? Oil workers, are they oligarchs? Bakers, restauranteurs, shop-owners.. they're corporate worms? I don't think so.
People see through the bullcrap, they realize that
businesses are being forced to close, and it's creating unemployment for them.
They see that Chavez is brainwashing new generations, their own sons by legislating a modified version of the Communist Manifesto, Che Guevara's ideology, into our elementary school system. That's not freedom of intellect.
They see that devaluating our coin against the dollar purposedly just alienates us from the rest of the world's economy even further, to put us at a greater loss.
They see that if they work hard enough to earn something, it could be taken away from them at any time. It's the people that want a free ride no matter what the consequences that are for him.
Chavez REPEATEDLY creates laws skipping right through our National Assembly (somewhat like Congress in Washington), because he could. Is there anything more commie than that? No one took a stand up to now.
Until someone comes up with a truly centered system that provides a true democracy, capitalism is the system that provides the best way for people to work their way to wherever they want to be. It's a sad truth. Anything else are just ideals that are better left to romantic rhetoric in books about the poor and the rich, parasites and the oppressed, that will hopefully someday inspire a truly balanced system.
that tactic leaves the weakest behind.
In the center, rich and middle class survive and poor die - the equation isn't equal at all.
"Is there anything more commie than that?"
You really love the dollar. You've gotten the fever of it. You don't know the blood behind it.
"Until someone comes up with a truly centered system that provides a true democracy, capitalism is the system that provides the best way for people to work their way to wherever they want to be."
Wrong. Capitalism kills. Things appear good on the outside - that's the whole game - PR, and the extreme promotion of wealth when the poor are jailed or dead - but it only works because we murder millions every year to keep it going. The trick is that Americans have no idea of how many they kill in order to 'work to whatever they want to be.'
We're all human and we all deserve to live, not die so someone else can have more items.
Think. You yourself can come up with a better sytem.
In the center, rich and middle class survive and poor die - the equation isn't equal at all.
"Is there anything more commie than that?"
You really love the dollar. You've gotten the fever of it. You don't know the blood behind it.
"Until someone comes up with a truly centered system that provides a true democracy, capitalism is the system that provides the best way for people to work their way to wherever they want to be."
Wrong. Capitalism kills. Things appear good on the outside - that's the whole game - PR, and the extreme promotion of wealth when the poor are jailed or dead - but it only works because we murder millions every year to keep it going. The trick is that Americans have no idea of how many they kill in order to 'work to whatever they want to be.'
We're all human and we all deserve to live, not die so someone else can have more items.
Think. You yourself can come up with a better sytem.
WHEN YOU SAY BUDWEISER.....................
YOU SAID IT ALL !!
YOU SAID IT ALL !!
I love the accusations!
Do you have any idea what you are talking about? I would love to know what your background and experience is, without using the internet as a blanket for lies please.
I'm giving you facts, and EXPERIENCE to speak of what I say. Not what I read on the internet, not the news on TV, not the blabber-mouth on AM radio. Certainly not romantic ideology.
"Capitalism kills"
You mind telling me what system doesn't? Let him without sin cast the first stone. Did you ever hear of Castro's "Paredon"? No? I suggest you research, and take a look at the videos that have been recorded of this. And no, accurate photo-imposing was not available when these videos came out, in the 60's and 70's. Castro exterminated political enemies one by one against a wall with a firing squad.
America kills. Yes. I know it, you certainly seem to know it. Does the rest of the world know it? Probably not. Do they care? No. It's what the majority wants, not what you or I feel is right or wrong. Let's just assume Chavez is right in all his views, and he sees shit so clearly that no-one else does. Does that matter at all? If the majority of the people don't want that path, they won't take it. And that's what we're trying to figure out here now - who's the majority?
Do communist regimes kill? Yes. Do I really have to explain myself further? OK! Chinese population control policies. Tiannanmen Square. Iraqi extermination of Kurd population. The Final Solution. Colombian guerillas.
As for you saying I'm in love with the dollar, hey you're right. And so are you, if you feel so strongly about taking it from me to make it even.
People die regardless, find someone else to point your finger at for people dying, not me.
Do you have any idea what you are talking about? I would love to know what your background and experience is, without using the internet as a blanket for lies please.
I'm giving you facts, and EXPERIENCE to speak of what I say. Not what I read on the internet, not the news on TV, not the blabber-mouth on AM radio. Certainly not romantic ideology.
"Capitalism kills"
You mind telling me what system doesn't? Let him without sin cast the first stone. Did you ever hear of Castro's "Paredon"? No? I suggest you research, and take a look at the videos that have been recorded of this. And no, accurate photo-imposing was not available when these videos came out, in the 60's and 70's. Castro exterminated political enemies one by one against a wall with a firing squad.
America kills. Yes. I know it, you certainly seem to know it. Does the rest of the world know it? Probably not. Do they care? No. It's what the majority wants, not what you or I feel is right or wrong. Let's just assume Chavez is right in all his views, and he sees shit so clearly that no-one else does. Does that matter at all? If the majority of the people don't want that path, they won't take it. And that's what we're trying to figure out here now - who's the majority?
Do communist regimes kill? Yes. Do I really have to explain myself further? OK! Chinese population control policies. Tiannanmen Square. Iraqi extermination of Kurd population. The Final Solution. Colombian guerillas.
As for you saying I'm in love with the dollar, hey you're right. And so are you, if you feel so strongly about taking it from me to make it even.
People die regardless, find someone else to point your finger at for people dying, not me.
As a matter of fact, let's you and I, through this board, come up with a better system, shall we?
I'll go first:
I suggest a public votation system, with an ultra secure network, spread across a nation like ATM's where people can vote in their views on all issues that stir national attention, such as abortion, war, economic measures, legislations, etc. And more drastically, referendums. Surely a medium such as your C-SPAN which is not colored by journalism would allow the masses to hear their elected representatives in a chamber, Congress, or National Assembly out, the proponents of these laws. Thumbprint recognition could be used to avoid double voting and military encryption to ensure no one hacks into the system.
That sounds more like democracy than the system established thus far... your views?
I'll go first:
I suggest a public votation system, with an ultra secure network, spread across a nation like ATM's where people can vote in their views on all issues that stir national attention, such as abortion, war, economic measures, legislations, etc. And more drastically, referendums. Surely a medium such as your C-SPAN which is not colored by journalism would allow the masses to hear their elected representatives in a chamber, Congress, or National Assembly out, the proponents of these laws. Thumbprint recognition could be used to avoid double voting and military encryption to ensure no one hacks into the system.
That sounds more like democracy than the system established thus far... your views?
Right now only 30 - 50% of americans even *bother* to vote. So for them, the voting system doesn't seem to matter. They'll gladly murder any foreign person they're told 'hates their freedoms' but they can't be bothered to actually use those freedoms. And why should they? The choice is white rich man or white rich man.
Not even half the country voted in Bush. When you have a system where the winner doesn't even need more than 50%, you've got a problem.
And right now you really only can vote for tweedle-dee or tweedle-dum.
So why bother?
This *IS* no democracy. It's Duopoly - two parties with the interests only of the rich control everything - including the judges, who cast decisions to keep everything in favor of the rich.
BTW - right now I'm at school working on a presentation for class at 4, so I'll be off line for awhile.
Not even half the country voted in Bush. When you have a system where the winner doesn't even need more than 50%, you've got a problem.
And right now you really only can vote for tweedle-dee or tweedle-dum.
So why bother?
This *IS* no democracy. It's Duopoly - two parties with the interests only of the rich control everything - including the judges, who cast decisions to keep everything in favor of the rich.
BTW - right now I'm at school working on a presentation for class at 4, so I'll be off line for awhile.
A 20something student who has a complete misunderstanding of everything. So what else is new?
I'm confused to whether bov and vob are the same person.. either or.. you still haven't given a better alternative. If you really think communism is the answer, please give me reasons why, I'm starting to feel this is like communicating with a house plant.
Or better yet, move to Cuba, see how Fidel treats ya.
Or better yet, move to Cuba, see how Fidel treats ya.
Ricardo sounds like one of those Right Wing Cuban-American Terrorists living in South Florida.
What's the matter kidnapping Elian Gonzales ain't fun for you Right Wingers anymore?
If you want to find killing, look at the American Empire's record of murder around the world.
*Over 1 million Iraqi citizens killed by your beloved America and its genocidial sanctions.
*Over 200,000 killed during America's Operation Desert Slaughter over a decade ago.
* American sponsored Death Squad "democracies" currently in Columbia and Peru.
* America supported and sponsored Contra wars that killed hundreds of thousands of people in Guatemala, El Salvador, and Nicaragua during the 1980s under the Regime of Ronny Reagan.
*The American war crimes and bombing of Afghan wedding parties and Red Cross buildings (oops) in the Afghan.
*American sponsored murder of Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza and other occupied Terroritories by American Zionists.
If you want to find killing, look at the Terrorist activities of Cuban American Right Wingers (much like yourself) who have blown up civilian airliners in their Jihad against Cuba.
If you want to find killing, look at American trained, backed, and sponsored Latin Terrorists at the School of the Assassins in Ft. Benning Georgia.
In fact, Ricardo, why don't you go enroll, and join this Terroristic training school, you sound as if you'd fit in very well yourself.
What's the matter kidnapping Elian Gonzales ain't fun for you Right Wingers anymore?
If you want to find killing, look at the American Empire's record of murder around the world.
*Over 1 million Iraqi citizens killed by your beloved America and its genocidial sanctions.
*Over 200,000 killed during America's Operation Desert Slaughter over a decade ago.
* American sponsored Death Squad "democracies" currently in Columbia and Peru.
* America supported and sponsored Contra wars that killed hundreds of thousands of people in Guatemala, El Salvador, and Nicaragua during the 1980s under the Regime of Ronny Reagan.
*The American war crimes and bombing of Afghan wedding parties and Red Cross buildings (oops) in the Afghan.
*American sponsored murder of Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza and other occupied Terroritories by American Zionists.
If you want to find killing, look at the Terrorist activities of Cuban American Right Wingers (much like yourself) who have blown up civilian airliners in their Jihad against Cuba.
If you want to find killing, look at American trained, backed, and sponsored Latin Terrorists at the School of the Assassins in Ft. Benning Georgia.
In fact, Ricardo, why don't you go enroll, and join this Terroristic training school, you sound as if you'd fit in very well yourself.
For more information:
http://www.narconews.com
You still don't get it. I did not in any sentence "DEFEND" the American system. Sounds like you love to hear (or read) yourself talking regardless of whether it follows what has been said.
As far as the word terrorist, I'd suggest you steer clear from that word if you want your sentences to have any validity, since it's a little prostituted by this point. Everyone points their finger at each other calling them terrorists, the word doesn't mean shit anymore.
In fact, if you want your sentences to have any validity at all, why don't you sell the computer you are using so you can share what its worth with some of the poor kids in the ghetto that desperately need clothes on their back and food on their table? That would be being a good socialist, not a half-ass that just talks alot of nothing. Or possibly the car you drive? Didn't think so. Actually, just to keep riding the "why don't you..." boat, why don't you move to a communist country so you're not able to take part in political debate like this? So the government puts a national block on international sites, like China just did? Or better yet, so you have some insight as to what it is you're talking about?
American imperialism is rotten, not democracy.
America has killed thousands in their modern day Inquisition and will probably continue to do so until it burns itself like Rome once did. I just offered a chance for you to voice some solutions and you went back to name calling and finger pointing - not very mature, particularly if you have any ambitions of ever making positive changes to the world you live in. You never now whose life you might be giving meaning to with your words.
Communism is an ancient, dead ideology that has been proven wrong time and again - the only people defending it are the people that have never experienced it, only read it in books and figured it sounds great.
As far as the word terrorist, I'd suggest you steer clear from that word if you want your sentences to have any validity, since it's a little prostituted by this point. Everyone points their finger at each other calling them terrorists, the word doesn't mean shit anymore.
In fact, if you want your sentences to have any validity at all, why don't you sell the computer you are using so you can share what its worth with some of the poor kids in the ghetto that desperately need clothes on their back and food on their table? That would be being a good socialist, not a half-ass that just talks alot of nothing. Or possibly the car you drive? Didn't think so. Actually, just to keep riding the "why don't you..." boat, why don't you move to a communist country so you're not able to take part in political debate like this? So the government puts a national block on international sites, like China just did? Or better yet, so you have some insight as to what it is you're talking about?
American imperialism is rotten, not democracy.
America has killed thousands in their modern day Inquisition and will probably continue to do so until it burns itself like Rome once did. I just offered a chance for you to voice some solutions and you went back to name calling and finger pointing - not very mature, particularly if you have any ambitions of ever making positive changes to the world you live in. You never now whose life you might be giving meaning to with your words.
Communism is an ancient, dead ideology that has been proven wrong time and again - the only people defending it are the people that have never experienced it, only read it in books and figured it sounds great.
And to answer your first statement, I'm not a Cuban American in south florida, I'm a Venezuelan, in Venezuela, clenched fist in hand in the streets and the Net for what I believe in. Where are you?
Please do! :)
someone else posted as vob - obviously, that isn't me as I don't have dyslexia.
also, although I sometimes get angry or provoke trolls on here to engage, I generally don't get into these long attacks back and forth. So that isn't me. If I engage trolls or people who are right-wing radicals, I try to keep it to a few lines and not more, since there's lots of other important activist work to be done.
"you still haven't given a better alternative"
I'd like to, but I can't do it all alone - that isn't democracy. Personally I'm looking to things happening in Argentina, the people's assemblies. Have you ever had the chance to participate in what's called 'direct democracy'? The only times I have have been in the activist movement (for the most part). One of the most amazing times was when with an activist from Art and Revolution who facilitated a series of directly democratic decisions we made when we arrived at Senator Feinstein's office for a spontatneous protest - it wasn't planned in advance, so we had to all decide what to do. It was an amazing experience and the mediator was able to do it and guide us because he'd recently visited Argentina, had seen the people's assemblies, and had gained experience in the process (and probably elsewhere).
Anyway, so that's an ideal, for me. How does everyone have a say?
You've mentioned the technological and logistical aspects, which are important.
But right now, money is the center of everything - not people, not humanity, not families, not respect, not trees or air.
Imagine if you replaced 'money' with any or all of those things.
When money is all that matters, everything else is a slave to it. Including us.
Each one of us is just as important of a human being as every CEO and president and billionaire around the world - the system tries to tell us that we aren't. But that's where the fundamental problem is.
And most people will attack me for saying these things - "Oh you don't know anything. That isn't how the world works."
But the world is whatever we make of it.
also, although I sometimes get angry or provoke trolls on here to engage, I generally don't get into these long attacks back and forth. So that isn't me. If I engage trolls or people who are right-wing radicals, I try to keep it to a few lines and not more, since there's lots of other important activist work to be done.
"you still haven't given a better alternative"
I'd like to, but I can't do it all alone - that isn't democracy. Personally I'm looking to things happening in Argentina, the people's assemblies. Have you ever had the chance to participate in what's called 'direct democracy'? The only times I have have been in the activist movement (for the most part). One of the most amazing times was when with an activist from Art and Revolution who facilitated a series of directly democratic decisions we made when we arrived at Senator Feinstein's office for a spontatneous protest - it wasn't planned in advance, so we had to all decide what to do. It was an amazing experience and the mediator was able to do it and guide us because he'd recently visited Argentina, had seen the people's assemblies, and had gained experience in the process (and probably elsewhere).
Anyway, so that's an ideal, for me. How does everyone have a say?
You've mentioned the technological and logistical aspects, which are important.
But right now, money is the center of everything - not people, not humanity, not families, not respect, not trees or air.
Imagine if you replaced 'money' with any or all of those things.
When money is all that matters, everything else is a slave to it. Including us.
Each one of us is just as important of a human being as every CEO and president and billionaire around the world - the system tries to tell us that we aren't. But that's where the fundamental problem is.
And most people will attack me for saying these things - "Oh you don't know anything. That isn't how the world works."
But the world is whatever we make of it.
"You still don't get it. I did not in any sentence "DEFEND" the American system. Sounds like you love to hear (or read) yourself talking regardless of whether it follows what has been said. "
No, you don't get it, you fool. Read the title of my message. It says *Capitalism* Kills. You are defending Capitalism aren't you? The only way you can attack Chavez is to Red Bait him and invoke some Cold War era style anti-Communist propaganda.
America is the Global Defender of capitalism. Everything America does, it does to defend the interests of its national capitalism. When you defend Capitalism, you defend America by default.
"As far as the word terrorist, I'd suggest you steer clear from that word if you want your sentences to have any validity, since it's a little prostituted by this point. Everyone points their finger at each other calling them terrorists, the word doesn't mean shit anymore."
You should tell that to the Coup Plotters who have invoked that word as a favored propaganda phrase. Didn't your Coup Plotters try to compare Chavez to the Taliban no less.
"In fact, if you want your sentences to have any validity at all, why don't you sell the computer you are using so you can share what its worth with some of the poor kids in the ghetto that desperately need clothes on their back and food on their table? That would be being a good socialist, not a half-ass that just talks alot of nothing. Or possibly the car you drive? Didn't think so. Actually, just to keep riding the "why don't you..." boat, why don't you move to a communist country so you're not able to take part in political debate like this? So the government puts a national block on international sites, like China just did? Or better yet, so you have some insight as to what it is you're talking about? "
Why don't you and other Democratic Coup Plotters sell your own computer and your own car. God knows you people are the ones that have all the money and wealth in Venezuela. As for being a good Socialist or Communism, you have no understanding of these concepts--other than what you have been brainwashed with in your Oligarchical Corporate media. A Socialist would work for redistributing wealth--FROM THE RICH TO THE POOR. As for myself, I don't have a fucking car and and I sure as hell ain't rich. Perhaps, I should expropriate yours and give it to the poor instead.
Moreover, if you are concerned about internet controls and censorship, you should start looking at Capitalist societies, including the self-style Land of the Free which has implemented its OWN INTERNET surveillance technologies such as with Key-stroke logger programs, Fatherland Security Dept. and the Total Information Awareness project.
"American imperialism is rotten, not democracy.
America has killed thousands in their modern day Inquisition and will probably continue to do so until it burns itself like Rome once did. I just offered a chance for you to voice some solutions and you went back to name calling and finger pointing - not very mature, particularly if you have any ambitions of ever making positive changes to the world you live in. You never now whose life you might be giving meaning to with your words. "
You almost sound like a School Marm trying to admonish her students. Please, drop the phony sanctimonious and pious pose about finger pointing and namecalling. You are the Leader in terms of these traits, Ricardo. Everyword out of your mouth concerning Chavez has been to Red-Bait, or call him "Commie" or some other feeble epithet..
"Communism is an ancient, dead ideology that has been proven wrong time and again - the only people defending it are the people that have never experienced it, only read it in books and figured it sounds great."
It is Capitalism which is dying and will soon be a dead ideology. How do explain the anti-Capitalism rebellions which are rocking the world, and Latin America in particular. How do explain the revolt against Capitalist 'free market reforms' in Brazil with the election of Lula? Or in Equador, with the election of the populist Colonel Lucio? Oh yeah, have you heard about this little thing called the anti-globalization movement?
"And to answer your first statement, I'm not a Cuban American in south florida, I'm a Venezuelan, in Venezuela, clenched fist in hand in the streets and the Net for what I believe in. Where are you?"
Learn to read Ricardo. I didn't say you WERE Cuban American. I said you *SOUNDED AS IF YOU WERE LIKE* one of those infamous Miami Mafia in South Florida.
No, you don't get it, you fool. Read the title of my message. It says *Capitalism* Kills. You are defending Capitalism aren't you? The only way you can attack Chavez is to Red Bait him and invoke some Cold War era style anti-Communist propaganda.
America is the Global Defender of capitalism. Everything America does, it does to defend the interests of its national capitalism. When you defend Capitalism, you defend America by default.
"As far as the word terrorist, I'd suggest you steer clear from that word if you want your sentences to have any validity, since it's a little prostituted by this point. Everyone points their finger at each other calling them terrorists, the word doesn't mean shit anymore."
You should tell that to the Coup Plotters who have invoked that word as a favored propaganda phrase. Didn't your Coup Plotters try to compare Chavez to the Taliban no less.
"In fact, if you want your sentences to have any validity at all, why don't you sell the computer you are using so you can share what its worth with some of the poor kids in the ghetto that desperately need clothes on their back and food on their table? That would be being a good socialist, not a half-ass that just talks alot of nothing. Or possibly the car you drive? Didn't think so. Actually, just to keep riding the "why don't you..." boat, why don't you move to a communist country so you're not able to take part in political debate like this? So the government puts a national block on international sites, like China just did? Or better yet, so you have some insight as to what it is you're talking about? "
Why don't you and other Democratic Coup Plotters sell your own computer and your own car. God knows you people are the ones that have all the money and wealth in Venezuela. As for being a good Socialist or Communism, you have no understanding of these concepts--other than what you have been brainwashed with in your Oligarchical Corporate media. A Socialist would work for redistributing wealth--FROM THE RICH TO THE POOR. As for myself, I don't have a fucking car and and I sure as hell ain't rich. Perhaps, I should expropriate yours and give it to the poor instead.
Moreover, if you are concerned about internet controls and censorship, you should start looking at Capitalist societies, including the self-style Land of the Free which has implemented its OWN INTERNET surveillance technologies such as with Key-stroke logger programs, Fatherland Security Dept. and the Total Information Awareness project.
"American imperialism is rotten, not democracy.
America has killed thousands in their modern day Inquisition and will probably continue to do so until it burns itself like Rome once did. I just offered a chance for you to voice some solutions and you went back to name calling and finger pointing - not very mature, particularly if you have any ambitions of ever making positive changes to the world you live in. You never now whose life you might be giving meaning to with your words. "
You almost sound like a School Marm trying to admonish her students. Please, drop the phony sanctimonious and pious pose about finger pointing and namecalling. You are the Leader in terms of these traits, Ricardo. Everyword out of your mouth concerning Chavez has been to Red-Bait, or call him "Commie" or some other feeble epithet..
"Communism is an ancient, dead ideology that has been proven wrong time and again - the only people defending it are the people that have never experienced it, only read it in books and figured it sounds great."
It is Capitalism which is dying and will soon be a dead ideology. How do explain the anti-Capitalism rebellions which are rocking the world, and Latin America in particular. How do explain the revolt against Capitalist 'free market reforms' in Brazil with the election of Lula? Or in Equador, with the election of the populist Colonel Lucio? Oh yeah, have you heard about this little thing called the anti-globalization movement?
"And to answer your first statement, I'm not a Cuban American in south florida, I'm a Venezuelan, in Venezuela, clenched fist in hand in the streets and the Net for what I believe in. Where are you?"
Learn to read Ricardo. I didn't say you WERE Cuban American. I said you *SOUNDED AS IF YOU WERE LIKE* one of those infamous Miami Mafia in South Florida.
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