Pictures From Wolfowitz Protest

This is why I love living in the bay area . . . .

Thank you to all those who showed up, paid admission, got arrested, made signs, took pictures, etc. etc.!!

It was truly a display of the most moronic display of ignorance. First, it is NOT about the oil. Only a dumb mother fucker could EVER think defending America against terrorism is about oil. Do you even know what oil is, moron? Second, your protest is mainly intended to tell us that you are too god damned stupid to stand up for your right to exist. So, by extension, you should have been mowed down in gunfire as is the custom in Iraq and other Muslim slave pens.

"First, it is NOT about the oil"

Iraq is important to the US for ITS oil but more importantly because the US considers Iraq a danger to US interests in Saudi Arabia (a country the US obviously only supports due to its oil) Oil has been a strategic commodity for awhile so it should be no surprise it drives foreign policy. In WWII a first goal of the allies was to cut offf the Nazi oil supply: http://www.50missions.com/Ploesti.html. Oil is needed to wage war so it has been and will continue to be a commodity countries will kill for. Even if the US really is worried about Iraqi WMD the owrry is that such weapons would give Iraq power in a strategic region.

The US probably also wants a friendly country in the region so that Saudi funding for Al Qaeda can be attacked without endangering US relations with the Saudis.

If you really think a war is about Iraqi danger to the US (rather than US interests in the Middle East) read the CIA' statements right before the vote in Congress and it should be very clear that if Iraq has WMD it is only a danger if attacked (and even then probably only to nighboring countries).

paul wolfowitz said something very revealing to ashley banfield
(the former MSNBC host) prior to her getting fired.

He gave her a tour of the pentagon while later answering some questions.

In the interview he admitted they (the Bush administration) could not have followed up on their plane to invade Afghanistan with no pretext.

In his words, the significance of nine eleven served as an excuse to the Bush administartion to invade afghanistan with zero or none of the international outcry that would have followed them otherwise.

coincidentally, MSNBC refuses to release this interview to the buying public.

maybe they know they are sitting on a hot potato...

paul wolfowitz said something very revealing to ashley banfield
(the former MSNBC host) prior to her getting fired.

He gave her a tour of the pentagon while later answering some questions.

In the interview he admitted they (the Bush administration) could not have followed up on their plane to invade Afghanistan with no pretext.

In his words, the significance of nine eleven served as an excuse to the Bush administartion to invade afghanistan with zero or none of the international outcry that would have followed them otherwise.

coincidentally, MSNBC refuses to release this interview to the buying public.

maybe they know they are sitting on a hot potato...

Way to go, you Bay Area peace activists! The Bush cabal of oil slugs may run & evade(by going thru the back door), but they can't hide from the people's righteous fury at the front door. Keep dogging these war-mongers until they have no peace in their midst. Bravo. Imua!

By the way, did you tell "Wolf Paul," that tens of millions of people all across the globe are opposed to his Chief Chickenhawk mini-shrub's attempt to launch an Imperialist aggrssion on our Planet? Next time he plans to speak to the public with his 'woeful-wits,' there will be thousands more citizens ready to 'greet' him with more creative protests!

The WOLF-a witch demonstrator has a sign on his outfit :'right wing lunatic'. 'Right 'or'left' , we the people are all against this insane unconstitutional invasion. His sign should be corrected to"ZIONIST LUNATIC"!

The WOLF-a witch demonstrator has a sign on his outfit :'right wing lunatic'. 'Right 'or'left' , we the people are all against this insane unconstitutional invasion. His sign should be corrected to"ZIONIST LUNATIC"!

To Laughing At You:

Your comments are without substance, and are simply rants. You have provided ZERO proof as to why this war is not about oil. Rather, you employ profanity and ad hominem to mask your own ignorance. Next time you post, actually state some pertinent FACTS, that is, IF you actually possess pertinent facts.

Laughing at you!!! Seems like you are the fool. Time and time again the people of the Middle East have said we hate America for it's foreign policy! We blame America for every Palestinian killed in Palestine (Christian or Muslim). We blame America for ARMING Saddam Hussein we blame America for one million civilians killed because of the sanctions and we blame America for supporting corrupt monarchies in our countries. Ask yourself: Why are people ready to die to give YOU a taste of what you have given us! Join the US Army - DIE FOR ISRAEL!!! I respect those people who speak out for the truth, regardless of their race, country or religion. It is warmongers like "Laughing at You" who are the unpatriotic ones. Protests such as these help ALL people of the world. This war will never end. Violence will only create more violence. See the news more bombings everywhere. Americans targetted all over the world. Terrorists are not born; circumstances have made them into terrorists. Address the causes of terrorism GET OUT OF OUR COUNTRIES and you will win this "War On Terrorism"!! Good site to visit: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com

hi people,

censorship and tribalism on the left, indy media cover up. the corporate media shows what indy m edia will not show.



image 16_911 JPG image contains a large banner and Uncle Sam beneath it , center, with his sign
blocked by the banner, that is, most of his sign blocked by the banner. what is visible of his sign is, "I am the WMD (weapon of mass destruction). Uncle Sam's sign says, one side: I want you to die for Israel, israel sings, Onward Christian Soldiers. the other side says: I want you to die for Oil, I am the WMD. Literally, Sam's sign is covered up, that is the politically incorrect portion thereof. (the present writer is Uncle Sam)

Apparently, since is the only image of Uncle Sam on this site, Independent Media and the photopgrapher censored Uncle Sam's message as perhaps too hard on Israel. This is noteworthy inasmuch as at least 3 TV news channels gave Uncle Sam and his sign some air time, Channel 2, 4, and 5. There may have been more but this writer only witnessed 2, 4, and 5.

Again the left demonstrates its limpness on confronting israel and the zionists.

Prominent in these images was that of the wolf baying to the moon. What exactly that image means is hard for me to understand, except that it is just mushy liberal 'humor.' what is the point? full of sound and fake fury, signifying nothing in particular. Humor is tricky, it can elevate the debate, or debase it. The baying wolf act, in my view , debases it by being without specificity; a cheap laugh which dispels attention.

thanks, joe webb

Per here and theirs:

"coincidentally, MSNBC refuses to release this interview to the buying public"

Well genius, you can get the transcript FREE
from the Department of Defense:

Deputy Secretary Wolfowitz Interview With MSNBC

at

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/May2002/t05102002_t0509msnbc.html

Leftist propoganda strikes again!Sheikh

Bin Ladin wrote: "We blame America for ARMING Saddam Hussein we blame America for one million civilians killed because of the sanctions and we blame America for supporting corrupt monarchies in our countries."

Iraqi tanks: T-55, T-62, T-72. Are those American??? They seem Russian to me.

Iraqi jets: MiGs, Su's and about 60 Mirage F1's. Russian, Russian, French!

Iraqi guns: AK-47's. SOVIET ASSAULT RIFLES!!! How many Iraqi troops carry M-16's???

You're being fed lies, mate! and in true leftist fasion you swollow them all without question. Do just a little research into your claims and you'll see how full of shit they are! It's odd how you accuse America of supporting Arab regimes, but they all have Soviet weaponry! USSR propped up Iran, Iraq, SYria, Jordan, etc. Notice how Sudanese, Somali, Congoles fighters all have AK-47s and RPG-7s. Why does no one here hate Russia for arming Arab, African and East Asian regimes that have killed millions of people? Answer: the left only hates America and Israel and wrap it all up in humanitarian bullcrap that shouldn't fool a 10 year old!

Sanctions kill 1M people? Yeah, Saddam has money for his army, new palaces and food for his friends, but none for his people. If you believe that then you're hopeless. your whatreallyhappened link is very reveaing. IT"S ALL THE JEWS! NO ARABS INVOLVED!!! Pathetic. No wonder you people have no power these days!

If you relied on Banfield and MSNBC to reveal the entire interview, buy a CLUE not a transcript. The mainstream media [though MSNBC's ratings are so low, they can barely be categorized as "mainstream"] are not the vehicle to pursue for facts, details and unbiased reporting. I am surprised you are so naive. The DoD releases these transcripts on the day the interview is broadcast [or the day after].

you are correct that america did not arm iraq with conventional weapons such as jet fighters or tanks. it is, however, on record that america, along with the british, supplied the government of saddam hussein with either infrastructure, equipment or specific know-how regarding how to produce and use chemical weapons. these chemical weapons were used heavily in the iran-iraq war, as well as the kurdish massacre in 1988. they are even reports that during the 1980's, the u.s may have helped the iraqi's with satellite intelligence/photos that showed iranian positions.

during the 70's and 80's hussein was "the west's" buddy. but he played both sides, as you pointed out, by buying old soviet tanks and fighters. just how much of bud was he to america? there's a nice photo in today's new york times that shows donald rumsfeld shaking the hand of saddam hussein. the photo was taken in 1983.

see the "Rumsfeld and Hussein" post on the SF-IMC newswire if you don't beleive me...

Indeed the US was allied with Iraq back in the 1980s. I just resent this US "armed Iraq" nonsence, when 95% of their stuff is Soviet. Why isn't Russia getting ripped for all the regimes they armed? Why is it only the US whose international record is ripped by the Chomskyite left?

Besides, if you rip events out of historical context it all looks like a CIA-Zionist plot to build them up and then start a war. On the other hand if you look at events in the Cold War context, the US aided them against Iran, which was the greater foe at the time. We won WWII because our Soviet buddies at the time (led by that great humanitarian Josef Stalin) crushed most of the Nazi war machine. Does history judge our aid to the USSR to be wrong given the subsequent 45 years of US-USSR cold war? Communism sure beats the Nazi alternative (by a little bit anyway).

International politics are not as simple as some here seem to believe. It can get very messy at times. NVietnam aided the Khamer Rouge in the early 70's then went on to occupy cambodia and lose 25,000 men vs. the KR less than a decade later. US aided the Afghans vs. USSR, then had bin Laden turn on them in the 90's etc. We see the same in Afghanistan today. Is the Karzai government better than the Taliban? Most leftists would say no, but reality says otherwise.

US policy is often messy....but of all the Superpowers the world has ever seen, the US has done more for freedom than any of them. This truth is what leftists don't like to hear and puts their anti-US rants in perspective. For every Indonesia, Iraq, Egypt that the US supports or supported, there are 5-6 free nations like UK, France, Canada, Germany, Holland, SKorea, Japan, Taiwan, that they support and defend. It is their blind hatred of America and Israel that has so many people here ignorant of history and fact.

I know the left doesn't care about accuarte facts, but the death toll (increase in deaths of under 5 children, is sum where around 100,000-200,000. However, the good news is since the oil for food program was introduced, most if not all of the increase is largely due just to missmagment, (Sorry, the Iraq goverment is the problem, not American Imperisam).

the first figure a UN study, in 1994 estimated the death toll at 500,000, (with a sample of 42 Iraqi homes, lol good work United Dicatorship Nations) So what do the peaceneck do with this information, background check, Nope they (leftists simple tripled the death toll to 1.5 million because it would distort the turth and help their own cause.

the 5,000 children a day claim is straight form the Iraqi goverment. (do you trust them more than our free press,) Seriously, if so you really should go live there where you can be free, (GO NOW,. we won't miss you


But please don't take my word for check for yourself, oh wait, your too dumb to do that I forgot, here is a link for all the spoiled rich right kid leftists who have never step foot out of the West!!!!!!


http://www.mattwelch.com/NatPostSave/Sanctions.htm

Responding to "Someguy," just answer this simple question: How many times has the US bombed other countries vs. how many times have other countries bombed the US? Don't forget to count the double digits in Central America in the 80s alone, not to mention the many other sites in the world where we have corporate interests. If you're interested in numbers, let' s talk about the results of those bombings. The amount of injured and dead caused by our actions on foreign lands vs. bombings here = millions vs. ZERO. (No, Hawaii was not a State in 1941.) (No, 9/11 was not a bombing.)

>Indeed the US was allied with Iraq back in the 1980s. I just resent this US "armed Iraq" nonsence, when 95% of their stuff is Soviet. Why isn't Russia getting ripped for all the regimes they armed? Why is it only the US whose international record is ripped by the Chomskyite left<

because the pretext for the invasion of iraq, and the occupation of iraq, and the setting up of a puppet government in iraq (costing a possible $300 billion according to a sacked aide to president bush), is not the threat posed by saddams stock of russian T-64's. a stock that was decimated in the gulf war.

the pretext is his supposed possession of nuclear, chemical and biological weapons.

so, imagine u.s. troops getting killed by saddam's chemical weapons. chemical weapons the u.s helped supply him with.

there's your problem.

there's the u.s.'s total lack of moral authority. the talking out of two sides of the mouth. the playing "innocent" game. here we've got the bush administration going on and on about the terrible threat, but it is a threat they had a hand in creating.

i could be wrong, but as far as i know, former-soviet union-supplied chemical weapons, biological weapons, or nuclear weapons, have not been used by any of the former soviet satellite countries on neighboring countries or their own populations. almost all these countries are now members of NATO, and have probably signed non-proliferation treaties.

“Millions vs. ZERO”

Wrong millions vs. 6.
On May 5, 1945, six picnickers were killed in Oregon by a Japanese balloon bomb.

Anyway, Yes Americans have killed much more people in bombing then they have had inflected on them. (That’s what happens when you have the best air force in the world) However, my point is, if you really care about the well being of the people in these countries as you claim you should be more conserved with comparing the numbers of deaths by American bombing, with the number of lives saved by American bombing.

“Let’s talk about the results of those bombings”

Yes lets,

I will start with Germany and Japan, by far the greatest number of victims of US Bombing. Greater than the six million Jews saved from extermination, but too late to save the other 6 million, which is already more deaths than the US caused, and we haven’t even started counting Russian dead, (20 million) and it may have taken another 20 million to defeat Germany with American intervention. In Japan the Atomic bomb attacks killed around 120,000 in both cities but prevented the need for a US invasion, which would have cost around the same amount of American casualties, but save millions and millions of Japanese (men, women and children) who will all prepared to fight to the death for their emperor. But its not like these people are better off today, Europe would be lucky to have Hitler as their leader, its not like kill imprison and torture millions and millions of Leftist Socialist and Communists, like you had he won the war.

A more recent note lets look a recent major bombings, Afghanistan for example, around 2,000 were killed, (not including Taliban combat deaths, as I consider these types of people some of the worse scum on the face of the earth and don’t morn their passing). Which is much less the Taliban would kill in any given 3 month period of its history. Thus, US bombing actually reduced innocent deaths in the country. Are the people of Afghanistan better off then before, Yes, if you don’t believe me ask them yourself, as they are some of the friendliest people your ever meet. It’s too bad the Leftists took 22 years to get around to their plight!!!

Vietnam is more a toss up, although I don’t agree with the US supporting dictatorships, as the South Vietnam government was just as bad as the Communists. Lets look what happened when we listen to the leftists the last time. American stops bombing, the North takes over, the North supports Kama Rouge, 2 million Cambodians murdered. (This is about the same amount killed by US bombings) I remember the Peace protests to get America out of Vietnam, but I don’t remember any huge hype by the left for the suffering of the people of Cambodia. (Or for that matter, all the ethnic cleansing in Africa) Why, because you don’t care about the suffering of non-Americans, only cleansing your own prefixed guilt of American progress and advancement. The First world is advancing faster than the third, (not because of a secret corporate agenda) but because Western nations are free and democratic and only with free and democratic governments will they be concerned with improving the well being of their people. (If I was president for life, I wouldn’t give a shit about you)


But it seems to me the Left is prepared to sit back and watch genocide after genocide without battling an eye lash rather than help them because innocent people might be killed. (Hear no evil, See no evil) Unless you think we could have just wrote a strongly worded letter to Hitler and he would stop being bad. Too bad a show of force in 1936 would have cost very few lives and saved 50 million others. But at the time no one was prepared to fight for the freedom of Germans.

" Greater than the six million Jews saved from extermination"

Oh yes. Also interesting how the bombing campaigns blew up just about everything BUT THE TRACKS LEADING TO THE CAMPS, you've got to applaud them for thinking about the Jews the whole time they were bombing don't you?

"it may have taken another 20 million to defeat Germany with American intervention."

Uh .. no. The Russians had their T-34s and they were massacring Nazi forces long before D-Day. The bombing campaigns had appreciable effect only in a few cases, such as when they bombed oil facilities. The area bombing did not affect German war production; industries on the outskirts of town were not hit hard, but downtown businesses were. This caused all the waiters, clerks, and salesmen to go look for work in the munitions factories at a time when Germany's biggest problem was its industrial labour pool. This was a conclusion reached by the USAF in a study done in 1945, and led to the abandonment of that doctrine and the new doctrine of precision bombing. The USAF actually concluded that the civilian area bombing tactics - which were mostly a British idea - actually increased German war resolve, much as the Blitz had done to the British. The only thing the American intervention in Europe really accomplished was ensuring Western Europe didn't fall into Stalin's hands.

"In Japan the Atomic bomb attacks killed around 120,000 in both cities but prevented the need for a US invasion, which would have cost around the same amount of American casualties,"

Records of decoded Japanese transmissions showed the American gov't was aware the Japanese were prepared to surrender before dropping the bomb. However, the Soviets, seeking to take Korea, had broken treaty with the Japanese and attacked. Again - it was a case of stopping Soviet expansion, not saving lives.

"US bombing actually reduced innocent deaths in the country."

Please. Spare us.

"Western nations are free and democratic"

The USA is not a democracy, it is a republic.
"Whereas throughout the 224-year history of the United States as an independent and sovereign nation, the people of the United States have never exercised power as a democracy;

Whereas the people of the United States have always acted by and through the Federal Union of the several States, electing Members of Congress from each of the several States and the President and Vice President by electoral votes proportioned to the number of Members of Congress representing each State; " -text of H. Con. Resolution 443, http://forcesct.multiservers.com/sense.html

"only with free and democratic governments will they be concerned with improving the well being of their people. (If I was president for life, I wouldn’t give a shit about you)"

So if you were president, it would not be a free and democratic government, and therefore, according to your logic, we would all be starving and our leader wouldn't give a shit about us. Yeah - I sorta figured that's where you were coming from.

"Too bad a show of force in 1936 would have cost very few lives"

Too bad the US was the very last ally to join, 3 years late, and only joined because Germany declared war on it - you make it sound like the US volunteered. Did you know that Isolationism was the policy of the Republicans and the right wing at the time, not the left? Never heard of Charles Lindbergh either I guess.

“The Russians had their T-34s and they were massacring Nazi forces long before D-Day. The bombing campaigns had appreciable effect only in a few cases, such as when they bombed oil facilities. The area bombing did not affect German war production”
The Germans had their Panthers, which won’t too scared of a T-34, by massacring I am sure you mean losing 6 men for everyone they killed. Need I remind you the Soviet offensives didn’t start making great progress until 1944. Not because of the T-34 which was about 4 years old at this point, but because of the Stormavick fighter bomber IL-2, Gave the Red Air Force the powerful air support, which the Germans had enjoyed up till they transfer many Luftwaffe units to fight the (largely ineffective) bombing offensive which among other things destroy the Luftwaffe as a fighting force.

Most bad idea’s a typically British this is nothing new. LOL

“Japanese were prepared to surrender before dropping the bomb”

The Japanese were only prepared to surrender on 4 conditions, 1 the emperor was to remain head of state, 2 Japanese forces would disarm themselves, 3 there was to be no occupation of Japan, 4 Japanese war criminals were to be prosecuted by the Japanese themselves, which is hardly what I call a surrender.

“Records of decoded Japanese transmissions showed the American gov't was aware the Japanese were prepared to surrender before dropping the bomb
However, the Soviets, seeking to take Korea, had broken treaty with the Japanese and attacked. Again - it was a case of stopping Soviet expansion, not saving lives.
Really, stopping soviet expansion, that it had worked so hard to encourage at Yalta, where Roosevelt begged Stalin to attack Japan, allowing Stalin to gain land in Finland , Poland, Rumania and Germany as long as he attacked Japan. Stalin promised too in 3 months and did attack three months to the day, after the German surrender was ratified in Berlin May 9, 1945 – August 9, 1945.
“The USA is not a democracy, it is a republic.”
I over generalized too bad the point which I made is still valid, but went over you head
“The USAF in a study done in 1945”
USAAF Army Air force, it was not a separate branch at the time. Since you love pointing out technicalities

“The bombing campaigns blew up just about everything BUT THE TRACKS LEADING TO THE CAMPS”

Yeah the Germans could never have rebuilt the tracks it they were bombed. LOL American involvement in the war stopped the final solution from being completed, thus saving their lives.

“So if you were president, it would not be a free and democratic government,”

If I had absolute power, I would not care about the suffering of my people, because absolute power corrupts absolutely, it’s not me, its simple human nature.

“Too bad the US was the very last ally to join”
Yeah the US sure took its time, the point is had major power, (Yes, even other than America) stood up to Hitler in 1936, he would have become a footnote in history and saved 50 million lives.

Never heard of Charles Lindbergh either I guess.
Yes he was an admire of Hitler, what is your point?

"The Germans had their Panthers, which won’t too scared of a T-34"

The T-34 was a technologically innovative design which addressed the short-comings of the earlier BT series of wheel/track tank. The T-34 was developed during the 1936-37 period, the prototype was completed in early 1939, and in September 1940 T-34 was put into series production mounting a 76mm gun. The Model 1940, the first T-34 production variant, t was armed with the L-11 76.2 mm gun, which was considerably shorter than the subsequent F-34 76.2 mm main gun of the 1941 and later models. The mantlet was also round in contrast to the more square mantlets of later models. The tank's main advantage was its simple design which made it easy to mass produce and repair. The T-34 was also small and comparibaly light, while the tank's water-cooled diesel engine minimized the danger of fire and increased the tank's the radius of action. The design overcame the technological superiority of German forces during the Great Patriotic War. Built in Ukraine in the Kharkov Steam-Engine Factory (KhPZ), the German general von Runstedt called the T-34 the "best tank in the world" and von Kleist said it was the "finest in the world." The T-34 had a more powerful cannon than German tanks, a higher top speed (32 MPH versus 25 MPH), and superior sloped armor and superior welded construction. However, the German Tiger and Panther tanks outranged the T34's original 76mm gun, and subsequently a 85mm gun was mounted on a T-34 tank. The T-34/85 was a modification of the T-34 equipped with a more powerful armor and cannon. T-34/85 had a flatter turret which gave this already inovative tank design the look that all tanks adopted after the wars end. Although not equal to the German Panther and Tiger tanks, the huge numbers of T-34s more than compensated for their technological shortcomings.

The Panther was a superior tank, but ridiculously expensive. Far too expensive even for the Germans. Also: the Panther was designed from concepts introduced in the T-34 (sloped armour etc). The result was that few Panthers were really produced, comparitvly, and in their first major engagement at Kursk, they were badly outnumbered and the majority destroyed. Russia enjoyed a relatively low casualty rate at Kursk.

"Yeah the Germans could never have rebuilt the tracks it they were bombed."

Bridges are kinda hard. And how many days does it take to make a crater back into a working railtrack? Two? Three? Thats tens of thousand of lives. Sorry - doesn't wash. This has always been a historical criticism of the air campaign.

"Most important is that which I write about the bombing of the Auschwitz Crematoria and the bridges leading to them." - Rabbi Weissmandel
http://www.flamemag.dircon.co.uk/weissmandel_lublin.htm

" it’s not me, its simple human nature."

The basis behind all right wing power-grabs, lying, deceit, treachery, manipulation, thieving, oppression, war, mass murder, and genocide. "I have no free will! I am a puppet! They were my orders!"

"Yes he was an admire of Hitler, what is your point?"

He represented the leading edge of the pro-Nazi right wing in America, estimated at 65 million strong. Isolationism was a cover for silent approval. Isolationism was THE main policy of the Republican Party before and during the entire war. The *right wing* Republican party. Support / silent approval for the *right wing* Nazi Party.

In regards to Panther and T-34, no question the T-34 was the best tank of its day, as the German generals said when they first encounter it, so what did they do, well basically they just made a copy of it, hence the Panther. (This is generally speaking recognized as the best medium tank of world war two.)
“The Panther was a superior tank, but ridiculously expensive”
It cost about 40,000 Reich marks, which although slightly more expensive the T-34 was actually the most bang for your buck. I think you may be confusing the Panther with the Tiger, which meets all arguments.
“The result was that few Panthers were really produced, comparatively, and in their first major engagement at Kursk, they were badly outnumbered and the majority destroyed. Russia enjoyed a relatively low casualty rate at Kursk.”
Well the first versions of the Panther had some teething troubles, along with many other new German tanks that were rushed from production straight to the front line. Russians suffered slightly higher loses then the Germans at Kursk, the difference was Russians could make up for their loses, while the Germans could not.
The basis behind all right wing power-grabs, lying, deceit, treachery, manipulation, thieving, oppression, war, mass murder, and genocide. "I have no free will! I am a puppet! They were my orders!"
Had you lived in a sate, especially one based on Josef Stalin type fear, such as the Soviet Union, or present day Iraq, people there tend not to exercise their free will, because if they do, they will be shot. Lets see how long you stick to your convictions when you, all your family, your friends will be arrest, torture and/or killed. While the people who commit the thieving, oppression, war, mass murder, and genocide are generally speaking the people who support the regime. My argument remains no dictatorship will ever be accountable to its people. And no absolute dictator will not be corrupted.
The Republican Party has throughout its history stood for doing nothing and maintaining the status quo, However, I don’t think all 65 million of them supported history; they just didn’t want to have to fight for a worthy cause. No one likes, war, but when faced with oppression, mass murder and genocide, it is the lesser evil. Where are most of the war, (28 out 30) oppression, and genocide being committed, the Islamic world.

"they just didn’t want to have to fight for a worthy cause."

No Republicans love to go to war. They just didn't want to have to fight another group of right wingers that they essentially had no problem with.

The Panther was NOT cheap. Cheaper than the Konigstiger, yes, (although the Konigstiger was a MBT and not a medium tank) and perhaps not too terribly expensive in currency but vastly demanding of materials Germany was in very short stock of. I also required technicians of a higher than normal caliber to produce.

Rob White, pretty much an expert on the Panther, has a great site here: http://www.netcolony.com/arts/rwcanuck/panther211.html
You can email him if you have specific questions.

In any case, the Panther was too little, too late. Germans who had a Panther - by which time the Soviets had probably already won at Kursk - may have been unafraid of the T-34/85, but the majority of them - sitting in their old PzKpfwIII's and IV's - were sitting ducks.
The Panther was superior to the T-34/85 but not a whole lot, anyway. It was good if it could keep distance. The difference tended to fade with range.

Back to the original point though: the Western Front was an (important) sideshow.

PS 28 current wars ongoing atm in the Islamic world is a bit of a stretch. Try more like 1, Afghanistan, and its with the Americans.
The most recent war in the middle east also involved the Americans; as did the most recent nearby war in Bosnia. Another war occurring nearby, Somalia, also (coincidentally) involved the Americans. The next most likely war in the middle east happens, by chance of course, to involve the Tunisians? No. Finns? No. Phillipinos? No. Could it be the Americans? Nah........ of course not, they wouldn't be involved in so many conflicts would they?

(/sarcasm off)

Ok, so your telling me there was no fighting in Bosnia or Afghanistan before American involvement. Please it's because of American involvement is the only you have become a champion for them. However the fact of the matter remains it was America that ended these wars, something you claim to want, just as long as it is not America who does it. Once again the left shows its hate for America is more important then the well being of the people in these nations. The Somali civil war started and went on for a long time without American participation. Because America’s attempt to remove Hidi, (the only warlord who was against stopping the war, and forming a new government. Was much worse than Somali’s dieing by the millions of starvation while the West does nothing America then pulled out, just as the left asked for, United Nations food supply were never distributed and millions of Somali’s died, because the left doesn't give a shit about them. Just as long as they don't die as a direct result of American bombing. Not to bother you will the suffering Muslims have inflected on their neighboughs, and themselves without US intervention (Sudan, Ethopia-Eritiea, Yemen, Kurds, Kashmir, Sri Lanka, Chechnya, Armenia, and to many numerous conflicts in Western and Central Africa, as Africa Muslims continue to persecute the Christian neighbors. (Plus Asia, Burma, Philippines, east Timor, and Malaysia). But do these conflicts get the attention of the anti-war movement. Of course not because there is no American involvement so peaceniks do see a need to stop the blood shed. Hypocrites!!!!

I know you think you're smart. I see the mid-sized words and limited typos. These arguments you make may work where you come from. That's a shame, you should get out more. I advise you make note: one has a hard time listening when one's mouth is flapping.
After reading this thread, I made a note to myself that I had been spending alot of time responding to fellas like yourself.
It takes some time to type a thoughtful reply.
Not today, and not for you.

See, there's the history that fits with what you learned in public school or college, and then there's what really happened. Your interpretation of events is skewed to maintain a belief in the sanctity of your patriot-gods, as is the basic goal of the science of political manipulation.
It's a very old science. Half of humanity's literature describes it, and the other half reflects it. It begs the question "why is political intrigue such a popular subject?"
Because it's the norm, not the exception. America is no different, nor is American history.
WWII has little to do with which other countries were fighting, and a whole lot more to do with who financed the preceding arms build-up.
Did the Great Depression affect American foreign policy? The Federal Reserve? League of Nations? The telephone?
How about the Navy, or it's industrial infrastructure? Did their desires affect decision-making at the executive?

The America to which you attribute all this enlightened war-making doesn't exist. To avoid addressing your latent patriot insecurities, you have accepted a flawed synopsis of world events that omits the possiblity that America's government is no longer beholden to it's citizens.
So, talking about Iraq and Yugoslavia is prolly not such a good idea, especially when you stick to the CNN line. See, I've been an adult through a few of these "wars" now. Not only are your "facts" bunk, but even still they don't support your claims because you ignore the primary causes.
Lamentable, and all too common.

Indymedia, is kicking 4$$, and has been targeted for freeper trolls. Line 'em up and knock 'em down.

Your view of history is not slanted. Please, you ignore every event that doesn't support your America is evil theory. When did I ever say all American intervention was for the right reasons? I said, as I will say again, Not innerving because we made mistakes in the past, is not a strong enough argument.

"War is a continuation of politics by other means"
Most wars have been fought for less the humanitarian reasons, but political reasons. However, you continue to ignore the outcome of many conflicts that have ended up improving the freedom and well being of the citizens in these countries.
Who is debating that, or that not all American invention has been for the right reasons.
In 1991 America invaded Iraq not to improve the well being of the Iraqi people, but for oil.
Nevertheless, The Iraqi people would be better off without Saddam Hussein, why can't you even admit that! Because America supported him in the past, is not a good enough reason for not taking action in the present. This is nothing new American foreign policy has always revolved around ally itself with any nation that can be helpful against the greater evil, an effect strategy during the cold war, however, today in a one superpower world, America must take a leading role in the United Nations and solving present day conflicts, by supporting and encourage democratic reform in the Islamic world and Africa (After all its not like the Europeans are going to get around to that any time soon.)

You complain about my facts, as if there is even such a thing as leftist’s fact checker, not bloody likely. They own have "factmakerupers" LOL

Once again the leftists response boils down to your wrong, I won't back up my argument, because it too time consuming. Instead I will offer, no other solutions how to solve these conflicts. Because I like the extreme left, do not care about discussing solutions only complaining about successful American intervention, i.e., Bosnia, Afghanistan. While my haltered of America is so predominate, I can't even accept the fact that the people in Afghanistan on better off now then under the oppressive, corrupt Taliban dictatorship, (everything the left is suppose to be against) that is until America gets involved, then they become the noble savages.

Bosnia was succesful? There is a neo-Ustashi government in Croatia installed by American intervention and you say Bosnia was succesful?????

Since when is Croatia, Bosnia! Again the leftists change the topic rather than offer counter points. I can only assume this means everything else you agree with. Yes America intervention in Bosnia was successful, it stop the war and ultimately led to the other throw of Milosevic. (Who I know was so much better than the Croatian government Croatia biggest supporter has always been Germany, It was the Germans who first encouraged Croatia to break away. So any beef you may have about the Croat government please take it up with the Germans. America was stuck in the middle in the Croat-Serb war, because they were protect by two powerful nations, Germany and Russia. While the Muslims protected by EU and the UN, (meaning effectively defenseless) were being ethnically cleansed, while the moderate governments of Europe and the UN stood by and did nothing. (Then they complain about Americans making them look bad.) America is no saint but it can not be held accountable for all the injustice in the world, as that is simply not the case.

It can be held accountable for the injustices that it perpetrated, such as assisting neo-Ustashi groups and the terrorist KLA.
Just because it isn't responsible for all of it means you want us to let it off the hook and look for some supervillain who is. Sorry - doesn't wash, at least not with me.
Milosevic is a war criminal. But a mild one compared to the ones we assisted. It was mostly Croats performing ethnic cleansing of Serbs, not the other way round. Serbia is and always has been multicultural; Croatia is an ethnic supremacist state, and has been ever since Ustashi days.

PS ... US forces weren't active only in Bosnia-Herzegovina, but in many areas in the region during the conflict, and to this day, conduct military exercises with the neo-ustashi forces, eg Phiblex 02

"It can be held accountable for the injustices that it perpetrated, such as assisting neo-Ustashi groups"

That's news to me, unless you have a reliable source, I don't think so.

"and the terrorist KLA"
Couldn’t agree more with you on this subject, however, again Kosovo is not Bosnia, but what really amazes me is how you don't see the grave similarities between the KLA and the terrorist PA.

"It was mostly Croats performing ethnic cleansing of Serbs, not the other way round."

Actually it was mostly the Bosnia Serbs cleansing the Muslims. Nevertheless the acrostics committed were only prevent my American (NATO) action, after years of European non-action but observing the atrocities for future reference

"Serbia is and always has been multicultural"
Serbia proper is about 90% Serbian, hardly what we call multicultural where I come from

Croatia is an ethnic supremacist state, and has been ever since Ustashi days

Actually it first started in 1941 when Croats killed 500,000 orthodox Serbs under German auspices. Again take your beef to the Germans not the Americans.

I see you carefully sidestep Phiblex 02. That speaks volumes.

GERMANY AND CROATIA: RESURRECTION OF THE "PURE" CROATIAN NATION STATE

Reliable intelligence sources claimed in 1990, that in 1988 Mr. Tudjman paid a secret visit to the Federal Republic of Germany (FRG) and met with Chancellor Kohl and other senior Government Ministers. It was said that the aim of the visit was to formulate a joint policy to break-up Yugoslavia, leading to the re-creation of a new independent State of Croatia with international borders in the form originally set up by the German Chancellor, Adolf Hitler, in 1941. At a secret meeting in Bonn, the German Government pledged its political, financial, and covert military support for Croatia´s secession from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia the intelligence source claimed such an action fitted neatly into Germany´s strategic objectives in respect of the Balkans, which included bringing Roman Catholic Croatia and Slovenia within the German economic zone, gaining direct access to the Adriatic and Mediterranean, and securing a favoured nation status with the oil and gas producing Arab states. The latter to be enhanced by recognizing Bosnia- Herzegovina as a predominantly Muslim nation state, an entrée to modern Europe for Islam along a traditional path from Turkey via Albania and the Serbian areas of Kosovo and the Sandzak occupied by Muslim majorities.

In the period leading up to Croatian secession there were signs that indicated the re-emergence of the historical axis previously seen in the days of the Holy Roman Empire, the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the Third Reich. There is no "conspiracy theory" in this: merely the reappearance of a geopolitical pattern.

Evidence of the axis in action occurred on October 4, 1990, when, even though still a part of Yugoslavia, Croatia was covertly provided with a US$2-Billion interest free loan, repayable in full after 10 years and a day. The loan was provided by the Ordre Souverain of Militaire de Saint-Jean de Jerusalem, Chevaliers-Hospitaliers de Malte. This ancient Order of Roman Catholic Knights of Saint John of Jerusalem was based in Malta during the Christian Crusades against the Islamic forces in Jerusalem. Today, the headquarters building of the Knights of Saint John of Jerusalem is located at 61 Via Nizza in Rome from where these modern Catholic Knights wield the influential power of high finance. There is a known strong link between the headquarters in Rome and Germany, with reports indicating the organization is even directed by German nationals. Ostensibly the loan was to fund priority civil engineering projects with a statement of conditions that the loan should not be used to fund military projects. However, well- placed sources said the loan freed-up other inances earmarked for civil projects, thus enabling the money to be redirected to equip armaments factories and to purchase weapons. The same source said that despite the "no funding of military projects´ condition, a significant percentage of the US$2-billion loan was misused on armaments. Signatories to the contract on behalf of the Croats were Vice President Dr. Mate Babic and Madamme Maksa Zeleu Mirjana, Counseler at the Ministry of Finance authorized to act on behalf of the Minister of Finance.

This US$2-Billion loan has never appeared in any Croatian Government financial statement. When Waterman Associates, on behalf of the Croatian Embassy in Washington D.C., sent out a press release in 1994 purporting to show a very low amount of foreign debt/loan, I challenged their figures, mentioning the US$2-Billion loan from the Knights of Saint John of Jerusalem. The embassy said they had no knowledge of the loan, so I offered to send them a complete copy of the "Object du Financement". My offer was declined as they said such a document did not exist.

It should be remembered, that this loan was made to Croatia prior to secession. At time when Croatia was still a part of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and obliged under the Federal Constitution to disclose any such transactions.

The reunification of the two Germanies and modernization of the East German armed forces, made available a substantial pool of weapons and military instructors for arming and training of a Croatian militia. During late 1989, and throughout 1990, arms flowed from Germany to Croatia to equip militia units. After HDZ party (Croatian Democratic Union) won control of Sabor in the May 30, 1990, multy-party elections, the newly elected President Tudjman formed a National Guard Corps (ZNG). In effect, the ZNG was not a "national" force in the accepted meaning of the word, rather it was the ultra-nationalist, neo-Ustashi military wing of Tudjman´s HDZ political party, in the same way that the "Brownshirts" of the 1930´s acted as the vanguard enforcement wing of Hitler´s National Party.

It has been asked why did Yugoslav Government in Belgrade not prevent the formation of the ZNG. The answer is quite simple. At the time, all the senior positions in the federal internal security organizations, and many senior posts in the General Staff of the JNA, were held by the Croats. For instance, Croatia´s first Minister of Defence, Martin Spegelj, was a senior general in the Yugoslav Armed Forces at the time of secession.

With the full support of Germany, and against the wishes of other members of the EC, the HDZ ruling party declared Croatian sovereignty in the Sabor on December 22, 1990, despite strong objections raised by the opposition parties. Shortly after the declaration, President Tujman introduced a new Croatian constitution which defined Croatia as the national state of the Croatian people and others, pointedly relegating the Serbs, Jews, Gypsies and Muslims to second class status. This was an exact repeat of what had happened in 1941 when nazi Germany invaded Yugoslavia and set up Croatia as the national state of the Croatian people and others. After the HDZ dominated Government passed the new constitution, discrimination against the Serbs began immediately. Serbs lost government jobs in the civil service, police, local authorities etc…they were evicted for their homes, many lost the ownership of their own businesses, and Serb newspapers were closed down etc. A special property tax applicable only to Serbs was introduced, and Croatian militia openly looted and closed down shops selling expensive products such as jewelry. These measures clearly indicated to the Serbs living within the administrative borders of Croatia that they must leave the land where they had lived for three centuries, or face the consequences of staying.

One of the most sinister changes was that every identified Serb in Croatia was issued with a new identity card which incorporated the figure 3 as the eight figure in the identity number. The figure 3 thus became the Croatian equivalent for Serbs as nazi Germany´s Star of David was for all Jews residing in countries dominated by Germany. When the time came for ethnic cleansing to start, the figure 3 would ensure no Serb would escape.





As you can tell, I am not lauding Germany either. But what in God's name is America doing conducting military exercises with these people? Not 10 years ago, but right now?
And why did we give air support to Croatian forces against the Serbs?

THE REVIVED POLITICAL ROLE OF THE CROATIAN BISHOPS

On February 1, 1991, the Croatian Roman Catholic bishops sent an open letter to the bishops of the world, and then to the entire Catholic church worldwide. In the letter, the Croatian bishops said that Belgrade, supported by the Orthodox Church, was advocating that socialism of the communist type be preserved in Yugoslavia. The letter also stated that the Serb-dominated government and army in Belgrade were centralist, and were firmly opposing the western cultural and democratic traditions to be found in the republics with the pronounced West European tradition…ie. Croatia and Slovenia. This theme, that the Serbs were undemocratic communists and Belgrade was the last bastion of communism in Europe, while the Croats were anti- communist democrats aligned with western values, culture and free-market economic structures, became the golden bullet fired constantly by the Croatian propaganda machine. It struck home all over the Western world, particularly in the United States, and it quickly became the driving force behind US policy in Yugoslavia. It also struck home with much of the world´s media, thereby setting the scene for the anti-Serb reporting that persist to this day.

Pope John Paul II received President Tudjman on May 25, 1991, just as Pope Pius XII received Ante Pavelic, the Ustashi leader of the Independent State of Croatia on May 18, 1941.

On May 28, 1991, in the Zagreb football stadium, President Tudjman held a military rally reminiscent of Hitler´s pre-World War II rallies in Germany. The National Guard Corps, now a large and fully equipped military force paraded before the political and religious leadership of the new Croatia. The parading troops wore the same insignia as the fascist Ustashi in 1941 and, as in 1941, received the public blessing of the Roman Catholic Church before going into towns and countryside to commence the ethnic cleansing of Serbs. An official UN report by the UN Secretary General Boutros Boutros-Ghali state that more than 250,000 Serbs were driven out of Croatia and thousands killed during 1991 and 1992 by Croatian ethnic cleansing operations. Somehow the Western media failed to pay attention to the actions against the Serbs; only when the Yugoslav army attacked Croatian territory in an attempt to free 6,000 Serbs imprisoned and being killed at Vukovar did the TV cameras appear on the scene to tell the world of barbaric Serbian aggression launched against freedom-loving democratic Croatia. The root causes of the problem were ignored, history was ignored, objectivity was left behind in the modern vision-bite of instant TV reporting. The Balkans was too complex for mass audience to comprehend, so keep it simple, paint it black and white and produce existing, emotive newscasts. The Balkans replaced the Gulf War in the battle for TV ratings. The Serbs were immediately cast simultaneously as communists and evil bearded, drunken chetniks. Anyone with even a vague knowledge of the Balkans would know this was a contradiction, the Serbian Nationalists fighting the Germans in World War II-often miscalled chetniks- were Royalists not communists.

GERMANY FORCED THE EUROPEAN COMMUNITY TO RECOGNIZE CROATIA AT MAASTRICHT

On June 25, 1991, both the Slovenian and Croatian parliaments declared independence, seceding from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Fighting between Croatian and Slavonian militia units with the confused poorly-led JNA erupted in many places with the result that on June 29, the EC dispatched the so-called Troika peace mission to Yugoslavia. On July 7, under the auspices of the EC, the Brioni Declaration was adopted: the decisions of Slovenia and Croatia to secede were suspended for three months in an attempt to secure peace and to maintain the unity of Yugoslavia, albeit probably in a revised federal structure. From May 1991 onwards, the Western media was full of biased, anti-Serb reporting, frequently claiming that the communist Yugoslav National Army from Serbia was conducting naked aggression against the innocent, democratic, pro-western people of Croatia and Slovenia. Germany played the major role in projecting and reinforcing this view of events. At 05.00 hrs on July 9, 1991, the then German Minister of Foreign Affairs, Hans Deitrich Genscher, telephoned the US Secretary of the State for Foreign Affairs James Baker, demanding resolute action by the UN Security Council and the Western Alliance against the Serbian terror in Croatia. During his early morning telephone call, Herr Genscher pushed hard for economic sanctions to be placed on Serbia and Montenegro, and that Croatia and Slovenia be recognized as independent states.

Here again, it can be seen that Germany was striving to bring about the break-up of Yugoslavia in pursuit of its own strategic objectives, and at the same time positioning itself along side the United States. In this Germany was aided by Austria. For instance, the Grand Duke Otto von Hapsburg, son of the last Emperor of Austro-Hungary, and now a German Member of the European Parliament, spoke strongly in favour of the Croats. In the French newspaper Le Figaro on August 15, 1991, he is reported as saying: "Croats, being the civilized part of Europe, have nothing in common with Serbian primitivism the Balkans. Croatia´s future lies in European Confederation to which the former Austor-Hungary could serve as the model to be followed." On the other hand, in contrast to the German and Austrian strategy, at this stage, the EC was still trying to bring about a peaceful resolution of the situation and to maintain the unity of Yugoslavia. However, the fighting continued. In an attempt to slow down the fighting, the UN voted on September 25 to impose an arms embargo on all factions in Yugoslavia; Germany ignored the embargo and continued to covertly supply Croatia with arms and ammunition. Fighting intensified, particularly in Croatia. During October 1991, more than 25,000 Serbs were ethnically cleansed from Western Slavonja. At the same time, 245 Serbian villages were razed to the ground in the area around Slavonska Pozega and more than 10,000 Serbs were driven across the border into Bosnia by Croatian ethnic cleansing operations.

In December 1991, EC heads of state and senior ministers gathered for a crucial meeting at Maastrict. Their task was to agree a treaty that would be a blueprint for the future development of the European Community, including across-to-broad integration of economic and monetary affairs, a timetable for achieving political cohesion, a far-reaching social policy and moves toward a common policy on foreign affairs and security. Some member states, particularly the UK, know they would be unable to gain acceptance from their own parliaments for this complete package of the measures and therefore pressed for an opt-out clause on some of the measures. Western European Union document 1342 Part two, dated November 6, 1992, indicates, that at the Maastrict meeting, the unity of the EC was maintained at the expense of the unity of the Yugoslavia. In the course of heated discussions on European security and a common policy on foreign affairs, Germany injected the problems in Yugoslavia. From a position where EC members were 11 to one in favour of maintaining the unity of Yugoslavia, Germany succeeded at 04.00 hrs in forcing approval for the recognition of Croatia and Slovenia as independent states. The Maastrict Treaty was signed, complete with all its opt-out clauses, and it was claimed in a press statement issued at the end of the conference that the EC was united on the way forward on all major policy matters.

The WEU document reads: "The Maastrict process therefore influenced the Twelve´s reactions to the Yugoslav crisis, while that crises influenced the process of the European Union….it should be underlined that any undertaking that did not have the consent of all member states of the Community would have significantly weakened Europe just when it was negotiating the Maastrict Treaty and then proceeding to ratify it."

In effect, Yugoslav unity was sacrificed to maintain EC unity. By its actions, Germany had proved it had become the dominant power in the European Community and was prepared to use its economic strength to achieve strategic goals in the post war era. A few days after the conclusion of the Maastrict meeting, on December 23, 1991. Germany recognised Roman Catholic Croatia and Slovenja as independent states effective from January 15, 1992. Germany also gave a promise to gain for them membership of the United Nations; this was affected just five months later on May 22, 1992.

GERMAN ACTIONS DESTABILISE YUGOSLAVIA AND THE US STEPS IN TO ASSIST

A major destabilising effect of German´s recognition of Croatia came the day after on December 24, 1991. The Serb areas within the administration boundaries of Croatia exercised their right to self-determination, just as the Croats had done in seceding from Yugoslavia. They came together in a single republic independent of Croatia and Serbia, but the EC refused to acknowledge their right of self-determination, stating that the territories were a part of Croatia. This was a fundamental error of judgement that led to four years of conflict, the death of thousands of innocent Serb civilians and the Croatian ethnic cleansing of West Slavonia and the Krajina in May and August of 1995. On January 13, 1992, in his capacity as Head of the Vatican State, the Pope became the first Head of State (alongside Chancellor Kohl of Germany) to recognized the new Croatian nation state. He was even ahead of EC member countries, they collectively recognized Croatia on January 15, 1992. The outcome of recognizing Croatia as an independent state within whose international borders the international community forced thousands of Serbs to live as second class citizens was an intensification of the fighting.

At a meeting in Lisbon in February 1992, the EC proposed a Swiss, canton-based solution for the running of Bosnia- Herzegovina which had declared it would secede from the Yugoslav Federation, despite the objections from the Serbs who constituted 34 percent of the population. Ignoring the EC proposal, the Bosnian Muslim and Bosnia Croatian deputies ordered a referendum on February 29, 1992, which was boycotted by the Serbs. The result therefore was 99 percent in favour of seceding form the Yugoslav Federation. Germany and the US encouraged President Izetbegovic to declare independence with promises of recognition and financial aid. Heavy fighting broke out, but towards the end of March 1992, it appeared that a breakthrough had been achieved when despite reservations on some of the detail, all three sides apparently verbally accepted the EC canton- style solution proposed some weeks earlier in February. Yet only two days later; the Bosnian Muslims rejected the plan following an assurance from the US and Germany that Bosnia-Herzegovina would be recognized, given UN membership, and, that they could get a better deal than was currently on offer form the EC/UN Peace Envoys. Germany forced through EC recognition of B-H on April 6, 1992, the very anniversary of German´s invasion of Yugoslavia in 1941. This was done against all the advice and warnings of the conflict that would occur in B-H from knowledgeable statesman, including Lord Carrington who resigned his post as EC Peace Negotiator. Just a few hours after Germany´s recognition of B-H, the US took the same step on April 7. The next day, on April 8, the Muslim- Croat dominated Bosnian Government announced the immediate formation of a single national militia (army) under the control of the Minister of the Interior, a radical Muslim. In response, the Bosnian Serb Deputies declared an Independent Serbian Republic (Republic Srpska) on April 7/8, 1992, declaring the 34 percent Serb population had as much right to self-determination as the Bosnian Muslims and Croats, particularly since the Serbs in Bosnia held legal title to at least 65 percent of the land.

Four days after the formation of the Bosnian Muslim Army, President Izetbegovic ordered his troops to attack all the barracks of the Yugoslav Army in Bosnia. Two weeks later, the Yugoslav Government declared it would respect the territorial integrity of B-H and that the JNA would commence to withdraw to Serbia on May 19, all the JNA had withdrawn by June 6, 1992. Despite the JNA clearly demonstrating it was withdrawing, on May 30, the UN, led by the US and Germany branded Yugoslavia the aggressor in B-H and in the disputed territory on the Croatian- Serbian border. No account was taken by the US and Germany of the fact that the JNA had withdrawn from its barracks in Slovenia and Macedonia, and was half way through a withdrawal from B-H…Yugoslavia was still branded the aggressor. Later on the same day, May 30, 1992, the UN Security Council adopted resolution 757, imposing economic sanctions on Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro). On July 2, the Bosnian Croats who accounted for 17 percent of the population of B-H, declared a separate state within B-H, calling it Croatia Herzeg- Bosnia. This territory rapidly became a part of greater Croatia, adopting the same flag, currency, car numbers plates etc…as used in Croatia and Croatian Government troops were deployed in this part of B-H. No action has ever been taken against Croatia by the UN in respect of these flagrant acts of aggression, a sharp contrast to Yugoslavia which suffers UN sanctions despite having no troops deployed in B-H.

The US and Germany again took the lead against Serbia by taking action at the UN with the passing of the UN Resolution 816 on October 9, 1992, declaring the air space above B-H to be a no-fly zone. The US said the objective was to prevent munitions and war supplies from reaching all three sides, and to prevent air strikes being employed by one side against another…However, because the Bosnia Serbs had by far the largest air force, the real effect impinged on one side only. In addition, the no-fly zone was used by the US to allow the Bosnia Muslim and Croat forces to use helicopters and fixed winged aircraft without being attacked by Bosnian fighter aircraft. Between October 1992 and today, UN observers have reported thousands of violations of the no-fly zone, the vast majority by Bosnian Muslim and Croatian aircraft, and yet, only Bosnian Serb aircraft, airfields, radars and communication centres have been targeted by NATO aircraft. It should not be forgotten that within the NATO structure in the region, most of the senior officers in control of air and navel operations are US personnel, and the aircraft used in the air strikes have been predominately US.