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USS Somers Mutiny Anniversary Reminds Us of History of Subversion in US Armed Forces
As we now head into a new war, December 1st marks the 160th anniversary of the mutiny aboard the USS Somers--the first significant revolt by enlisted people inside the United States Navy. We use this anniversary to call attention to the suppressed history of how enlisted people played a leading role in the defeat of the US war effort in Indochina.
This aircraft carrier, the U.S.S. Constellation, was the site of a major near-mutiny by enlisted people during the Vietnam War.
Today, George Bush is preparing a war of aggression that will kill hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, and several thousand US enlisted personel. Bush hopes to topple former US puppet Saddam Hussein so he can grab control of the world's second largest petrolium reserves for American oil companies, and get our minds off the economic crisis. He counts on the loyalty of enlisted people, hoping they will kill and die in a war for the continued domination of the world by America's ruling elite. But Bush and his cronies also desperately hope that their oil war will be a quick one.
Our rulers understand that contemporary American society is more fragile than it was in the 1960's, far too fragile to withstand a protracted ground conflict. And they know that the effectiveness of the US military itself may be rapidly and fatally compromised by any conflict involving major casualties, or lasting more that a few months.
As we now head into a new war, December 1st marks the 160th anniversary of the mutiny aboard the USS Somers--the first significant revolt by enlisted people inside the United States Navy. We use this anniversary to call attention to the suppressed history of how enlisted people played a leading role in the defeat of the US war effort in Indochina.
Read more about revolutionary subversion of the US Armed Forces:
- No War but The Class War
- Harass the Brass - Mutiny, fraggings, and desertions in the US Military
- Vietnam: The Soldier's Revolt - Useful in spite of its counter-revolutionary left bourgeois perspective.
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A couple of points about this article. YOu say that the American Empire is "preparing to go to war against Iraq."
This is wrong. Your evil Empire has been at war against Iraq for the past fucking decade. What do you call the illegal no-fly zones, periodic terror bombing, and genocidal sanctions? If that ain't war, nothing is.
America is preparing to invade and colonize Iraq as an extension of its decade long war against the Iraqi people.
Secondly, your hope that American enlisted soldiers will rebel against the American war machine is typical Anarchist delusion.
What you forget to take into account is the fact that most of these rebellions occurred when the US had a compulsory draft in which many people were effectively forced to join the military agains their will.
Today, with the all-volunteer force, that is no longer the case. This decision to eliminate the draft was of course a tactical decision by America, as a result of the lessons it learned during the Vietnam War.
Finally, you keep on harping on the fact that this war is war authorized by American elites or George Bush only.
But the reality is that a majority of the American people--including the working class and unions--are supporting an invasion of Iraq in one form or another.
In other words, like most Anarchists based in the Imperialist West, you delude yourself into believing that the American people or the American working class is some kind of progressive political force--when in fact they are just as bloodthirsty as their leaders whom they support.
Sorry to disappoint you First World "radicals" but your tired rhetoric and posturing cannot obscure the fact that the real resistance to your evil Empire is to be found in the Third World, and the Middle East more particularly.
This is wrong. Your evil Empire has been at war against Iraq for the past fucking decade. What do you call the illegal no-fly zones, periodic terror bombing, and genocidal sanctions? If that ain't war, nothing is.
America is preparing to invade and colonize Iraq as an extension of its decade long war against the Iraqi people.
Secondly, your hope that American enlisted soldiers will rebel against the American war machine is typical Anarchist delusion.
What you forget to take into account is the fact that most of these rebellions occurred when the US had a compulsory draft in which many people were effectively forced to join the military agains their will.
Today, with the all-volunteer force, that is no longer the case. This decision to eliminate the draft was of course a tactical decision by America, as a result of the lessons it learned during the Vietnam War.
Finally, you keep on harping on the fact that this war is war authorized by American elites or George Bush only.
But the reality is that a majority of the American people--including the working class and unions--are supporting an invasion of Iraq in one form or another.
In other words, like most Anarchists based in the Imperialist West, you delude yourself into believing that the American people or the American working class is some kind of progressive political force--when in fact they are just as bloodthirsty as their leaders whom they support.
Sorry to disappoint you First World "radicals" but your tired rhetoric and posturing cannot obscure the fact that the real resistance to your evil Empire is to be found in the Third World, and the Middle East more particularly.
What America has now is a poverty draft. Many in the armed services enter having been enticed with promises of adventure, job training, and financial assistance for university.
The above post sounds like the shit peddled by MIM Notes and the Uhuru House which claims that the US working class is irredeemably reactionary because it's been bought-off by imperialism. Thirty five years ago, this "line" made a bit of sense, or at least rang true, in regards to the "skilled" (mostly white male and largely unionized) sectors of the American working class, but after more than three decades of austerity, capital flight, and falling wages it's nothing more than a brain-dead formulation.
Perhaps the above poster could tell us how the US working class benefits from imperialist slaughters. How is imperialism "buying-off" the US working class? Be specific.
The above post sounds like the shit peddled by MIM Notes and the Uhuru House which claims that the US working class is irredeemably reactionary because it's been bought-off by imperialism. Thirty five years ago, this "line" made a bit of sense, or at least rang true, in regards to the "skilled" (mostly white male and largely unionized) sectors of the American working class, but after more than three decades of austerity, capital flight, and falling wages it's nothing more than a brain-dead formulation.
Perhaps the above poster could tell us how the US working class benefits from imperialist slaughters. How is imperialism "buying-off" the US working class? Be specific.
Seeing that a majority of Americans oppose a unilateral war against Iraq-- I would hardly say that a war against Iraq has deep support. Some unions have come against the war (not that unions are great -- just that this is an indication of movement at the U.S. working class base). First world workers all over Europe oppose a U.S. slaughter-- large protests have occured especially in Italy and the UK. This may not be enough but this is what we have to build on.
10,000's of Vietnam era soldiers came home incredibly pissed about the Vietnam war. Not all of them were drafted. Writing off U.S. soldiers who are mainly their because of their economic status is stupid.
Why doesn't "anarchist bullshit" specifically name the third world movements s/he supports?
10,000's of Vietnam era soldiers came home incredibly pissed about the Vietnam war. Not all of them were drafted. Writing off U.S. soldiers who are mainly their because of their economic status is stupid.
Why doesn't "anarchist bullshit" specifically name the third world movements s/he supports?
All nationalism is inherently reactionary because capitalism has already spread to every single nation state. These third world nationalists are spewing marxist rhetoric to hide their own nationalist ie. CAPITALIST agendas for warfare. It has been seen over and over again that once these so called nationalist "socialists" take power they merely do so to push their own nationalist capitalist program. This mindset can also be found in the race nationalists in the US who push for "Asian Power" or "Black Power" or "White Power," those who promote race war instead of class war, so that they can fulfill the interests of their "race" against others. Maoism and the race struggles have met a dead end. There are already black capitalists, Latino capitalists, Asian capitalists, but has it improved the lives of the working class from any of these groups? Of course not, because no matter who the capitalist is, who ever these so called role models are, they are all whores to capital and to the dictatorship of money. The working class has no race, it has no homeland, so we shouldn't be fighting for either.
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"The revolutionary proletariat is the gravedigger of the nation and of market exchange. Any defence of the fatherland, of progress and of the national economy further tightens the chain that keeps proletarians in slavery. The emancipation of the proletariat passes through sabotage of the national economy."
http://www.geocities.com/icgcikg/communism/c11_natislam.htm
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"The revolutionary proletariat is the gravedigger of the nation and of market exchange. Any defence of the fatherland, of progress and of the national economy further tightens the chain that keeps proletarians in slavery. The emancipation of the proletariat passes through sabotage of the national economy."
http://www.geocities.com/icgcikg/communism/c11_natislam.htm
Here's a cool revolutionary defeatist poster we should put up in the business districts of major cities:
http://infoshop.org/myep/myep_trash_downtown.jpg
http://infoshop.org/myep/myep_trash_downtown.jpg
"The above post sounds like the shit peddled by MIM Notes and the Uhuru House which claims that the US working class is irredeemably reactionary because it's been bought-off by imperialism. Thirty five years ago, this "line" made a bit of sense, or at least rang true, in regards to the "skilled" (mostly white male and largely unionized) sectors of the American working class, but after more than three decades of austerity, capital flight, and falling wages it's nothing more than a brain-dead formulation. "
>
The shit you people spew sounds much like the self-serving lies which most American "progressives"--from the Indymedia Liberals to the Leftists to the Anarchists--regurgitate like a bad habit. Don't know anything about the "Uhuru house," "MIM Notes," or whatever, but the "Labor Aristocracy" critique to which you implicitly refer is one which is obvious to most radcials outside of the American Empire.
This ain't about Third World nationalism." This is about opposing the Imperialist American system--including those Left Wing Imperialists like yourselves who defend your malignant system with lots and lots of bullshit ''radical" sounding rhetoric. It just so happens that most of the resistance to your Empire is found in the Third World--precisely for the reason that the Third World is where American domination and exploitation are the most acute.
>"Perhaps the above poster could tell us how the US working class benefits from imperialist slaughters. How is imperialism "buying-off" the US working class? Be specific."
Let's see, in terms of Iraq, the USA wants to gain control over Iraqi oil in order to destroy OPEC, lower oil prices, and gain greater political leverage over its economic rivals--all of whom are more dependent on Persian Gulf Oil than the USA.
The American working class benefits from US domination of Persian Gulf Oil most immediately from the fact that the USA will have much greater power to influence and control the price per barrel of crude oil. This means not only lower prices at the gas pump, but more importantly, it will prime the pump on the American economy as a whole. This will translate into more jobs, fewer layoffs, increased consumer confidence (i.e. consumer demand) which will forestall--if not prevent--a slide into an even deeper and more painful recession.
In the long run, American colonization of Persian gulf war oil, will enable the USA to gain greater leverage to extort more favorable trade concessions from its various economic rivals. This also true about American domination of energy reserves in the Caspian Basin, of which America's phony "Terror War" in Afghanistan is partially about.
And we all know, when push comes to shove, the American Working Class-- and the American people in general--will always pledge patriotic allegiance to the interests of its own national Capitalism as opposed to those "foreigners." See the virulent nationalism of American auto workers to Japanese car manufacturers during the 1980s and early 1990s. Or more, recently, see the reactionary American nationalist '"Stand Up for Steel" campaign launched by the United Steal Workers.
Did you progressives, or Anarchists or Leftists stand up and challenge this bullshit?
>
The shit you people spew sounds much like the self-serving lies which most American "progressives"--from the Indymedia Liberals to the Leftists to the Anarchists--regurgitate like a bad habit. Don't know anything about the "Uhuru house," "MIM Notes," or whatever, but the "Labor Aristocracy" critique to which you implicitly refer is one which is obvious to most radcials outside of the American Empire.
This ain't about Third World nationalism." This is about opposing the Imperialist American system--including those Left Wing Imperialists like yourselves who defend your malignant system with lots and lots of bullshit ''radical" sounding rhetoric. It just so happens that most of the resistance to your Empire is found in the Third World--precisely for the reason that the Third World is where American domination and exploitation are the most acute.
>"Perhaps the above poster could tell us how the US working class benefits from imperialist slaughters. How is imperialism "buying-off" the US working class? Be specific."
Let's see, in terms of Iraq, the USA wants to gain control over Iraqi oil in order to destroy OPEC, lower oil prices, and gain greater political leverage over its economic rivals--all of whom are more dependent on Persian Gulf Oil than the USA.
The American working class benefits from US domination of Persian Gulf Oil most immediately from the fact that the USA will have much greater power to influence and control the price per barrel of crude oil. This means not only lower prices at the gas pump, but more importantly, it will prime the pump on the American economy as a whole. This will translate into more jobs, fewer layoffs, increased consumer confidence (i.e. consumer demand) which will forestall--if not prevent--a slide into an even deeper and more painful recession.
In the long run, American colonization of Persian gulf war oil, will enable the USA to gain greater leverage to extort more favorable trade concessions from its various economic rivals. This also true about American domination of energy reserves in the Caspian Basin, of which America's phony "Terror War" in Afghanistan is partially about.
And we all know, when push comes to shove, the American Working Class-- and the American people in general--will always pledge patriotic allegiance to the interests of its own national Capitalism as opposed to those "foreigners." See the virulent nationalism of American auto workers to Japanese car manufacturers during the 1980s and early 1990s. Or more, recently, see the reactionary American nationalist '"Stand Up for Steel" campaign launched by the United Steal Workers.
Did you progressives, or Anarchists or Leftists stand up and challenge this bullshit?
NOW , all of you American "progressives" who are covering for the reactionary character of the American working class should explain why Americans---including so-called Working Class--have supported American wars around the world, if they haven't in fact been bought off by your Imperialist America system.
1). If the American working class is so progressive, why did American Unions from the AFL-CIA to the Teamsters to the United Stealworkers to all the rest of the Union Mafias *support* the American attack and invasion of Afghanistan, for example? Answer that.
2). Why is it that the goddamn Teamsters Union are a proud member of the "Committee to Liberate Iraq"--a Right Wing war lobby that is desperately pushing for an American invasion and colonization of that nation? Answer that.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/nov2002/iraq-n23.shtml
3). If the American working class doesn't support American wars, what have they been doing to oppose and resist the war which the American Empire has been waging against Iraq for the past fucking DECADE? How many strikes have the American unions called to protest America's *decade* long genocidal economic and military war which have killed over 1.5 million Iraqis? Answer that.
4). Better yet, if the American working class isn't a reactionary class bought off by American Imperialism, why haven't they launched a series of pre-emptive national strikes to oppose the coming invasion and colonization of Iraq? Answer that.
"Seeing that a majority of Americans oppose a unilateral war against Iraq-- I would hardly say that a war against IraqSome unions have come against the war (not that unions are great -- just that this is an indication of movement at the U.S. working class base)."
Sorry, Tricky, you do a better job of spindoctoring than Josef Goebbels. As I said before, the USA HAS BEEN WAGING WAR against Iraq for the past ten years. Secondly, the key word in your sentence above is "Unilateral." Most Americans--including the Unions--are not opposed to Invasion per se. They oppose America "going it alone" without a United Nations figleaf. With a UN figleaf, the *majority* of Americans--and the Union mafioso--support invasion like all other bloodthristy Americans.
The best way to stop the American war machine is to shut down the American economy. If the American Working Class is so progressive, its time for them to prove it. Token and symbolic acts such as passing a mealy-mouthed "Resolution against Unilateral War" is a toothless propaganda gesture and ain't nearly enough.
Its time to PUT UP or SHUT THE FUCK UP. GO ON STRIKE. Let the American working class and American Unions launch a national strike of Indefinite length and of indefinite magnitude against "Bush's War."
I ain't gonna hold my breath to see this happen. Because, contrary to what Indymedia Liberals like to suggest, this ain't just Bush's War. This is Imperialist America's War.
************************
Ultimately, the hostility that most of you American "radicals" have towards the idea of an American Labor Aristocracy has to do with the fact that they are deathly afraid to acknowledge not only your own complicity in the American Imperialist system but more importantly to hide your true political agenda itself.
Like the American Working Class in general, American "progressives" are more interested in preserving your standard of living, your relative wealth and privilege, and ultimately your Imperialist way of life itself--all of which are dependent upon continued American domination and subjugation of the planet in general and the Third World in particular.
This is true of the antiwar [sic] movement in general, and it is true of the antiglobalization movement in America, where much phony progressive-sounding rhetoric about Fair Trade and labor rights is used to disguise a nationalistic and protectionist economic agenda.
http://www.savanne.ch/right-left-materials/sakai-aryanwto.html
Progressives in America don't represent real resistance to the system, because you benefit from this system. You want to push a Thousand and One bullshit "Reforms" to this system in order to save it no less!! You want to vote for your local Democrap or Green Party candidate. Or, in terms of the Anarchists, you engage in comical acts of street theater and self-aggrandizing juvenile property damage that doesn't change a damn thing.
The bottom line is that the America Empire itself deserves to be ended--utterly, completely, and without hesitation. How many of you "progressives" are working for this agenda?
If not, you are nothing more than a Liberal-Left version of the same old American Nationalism which supports and nourishes the global American Empire itself.
It is about time that you clueless American progressives and pseudo-radicals understand that you don't represent anyone but yourselves and have very little influence or power outside of your own head.
You clowns seem more interested in engaging in empty phrase-mongering about "Maoism," or "Defeatism," or "Counter-revolutionary left-bourgeouis" (whatever the hell that means). This is basically yet another political turf battle for you, isn't it? You don't give a damn about Iraq, war, or whatever. Its the Anarchists or the progressives fighting against some perceived political rival. Fuck that noise.
The bottom line is this: Let's see you people organize a NATION-WIDE STRIKE against the coming invasion of Iraq. MAKE THIS STRIKE AS LONG AND AS DESTRUCTIVE TO THE AMERICAN MILITARY AND WAR MACHINE AS POSSIBLE. Let's see how many American unions and American workers are willing to put their money where their mouth is.
As I said, before, its time to PUT UP OR SHUT FUCK UP.
1). If the American working class is so progressive, why did American Unions from the AFL-CIA to the Teamsters to the United Stealworkers to all the rest of the Union Mafias *support* the American attack and invasion of Afghanistan, for example? Answer that.
2). Why is it that the goddamn Teamsters Union are a proud member of the "Committee to Liberate Iraq"--a Right Wing war lobby that is desperately pushing for an American invasion and colonization of that nation? Answer that.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/nov2002/iraq-n23.shtml
3). If the American working class doesn't support American wars, what have they been doing to oppose and resist the war which the American Empire has been waging against Iraq for the past fucking DECADE? How many strikes have the American unions called to protest America's *decade* long genocidal economic and military war which have killed over 1.5 million Iraqis? Answer that.
4). Better yet, if the American working class isn't a reactionary class bought off by American Imperialism, why haven't they launched a series of pre-emptive national strikes to oppose the coming invasion and colonization of Iraq? Answer that.
"Seeing that a majority of Americans oppose a unilateral war against Iraq-- I would hardly say that a war against IraqSome unions have come against the war (not that unions are great -- just that this is an indication of movement at the U.S. working class base)."
Sorry, Tricky, you do a better job of spindoctoring than Josef Goebbels. As I said before, the USA HAS BEEN WAGING WAR against Iraq for the past ten years. Secondly, the key word in your sentence above is "Unilateral." Most Americans--including the Unions--are not opposed to Invasion per se. They oppose America "going it alone" without a United Nations figleaf. With a UN figleaf, the *majority* of Americans--and the Union mafioso--support invasion like all other bloodthristy Americans.
The best way to stop the American war machine is to shut down the American economy. If the American Working Class is so progressive, its time for them to prove it. Token and symbolic acts such as passing a mealy-mouthed "Resolution against Unilateral War" is a toothless propaganda gesture and ain't nearly enough.
Its time to PUT UP or SHUT THE FUCK UP. GO ON STRIKE. Let the American working class and American Unions launch a national strike of Indefinite length and of indefinite magnitude against "Bush's War."
I ain't gonna hold my breath to see this happen. Because, contrary to what Indymedia Liberals like to suggest, this ain't just Bush's War. This is Imperialist America's War.
************************
Ultimately, the hostility that most of you American "radicals" have towards the idea of an American Labor Aristocracy has to do with the fact that they are deathly afraid to acknowledge not only your own complicity in the American Imperialist system but more importantly to hide your true political agenda itself.
Like the American Working Class in general, American "progressives" are more interested in preserving your standard of living, your relative wealth and privilege, and ultimately your Imperialist way of life itself--all of which are dependent upon continued American domination and subjugation of the planet in general and the Third World in particular.
This is true of the antiwar [sic] movement in general, and it is true of the antiglobalization movement in America, where much phony progressive-sounding rhetoric about Fair Trade and labor rights is used to disguise a nationalistic and protectionist economic agenda.
http://www.savanne.ch/right-left-materials/sakai-aryanwto.html
Progressives in America don't represent real resistance to the system, because you benefit from this system. You want to push a Thousand and One bullshit "Reforms" to this system in order to save it no less!! You want to vote for your local Democrap or Green Party candidate. Or, in terms of the Anarchists, you engage in comical acts of street theater and self-aggrandizing juvenile property damage that doesn't change a damn thing.
The bottom line is that the America Empire itself deserves to be ended--utterly, completely, and without hesitation. How many of you "progressives" are working for this agenda?
If not, you are nothing more than a Liberal-Left version of the same old American Nationalism which supports and nourishes the global American Empire itself.
It is about time that you clueless American progressives and pseudo-radicals understand that you don't represent anyone but yourselves and have very little influence or power outside of your own head.
You clowns seem more interested in engaging in empty phrase-mongering about "Maoism," or "Defeatism," or "Counter-revolutionary left-bourgeouis" (whatever the hell that means). This is basically yet another political turf battle for you, isn't it? You don't give a damn about Iraq, war, or whatever. Its the Anarchists or the progressives fighting against some perceived political rival. Fuck that noise.
The bottom line is this: Let's see you people organize a NATION-WIDE STRIKE against the coming invasion of Iraq. MAKE THIS STRIKE AS LONG AND AS DESTRUCTIVE TO THE AMERICAN MILITARY AND WAR MACHINE AS POSSIBLE. Let's see how many American unions and American workers are willing to put their money where their mouth is.
As I said, before, its time to PUT UP OR SHUT FUCK UP.
Um.. I'm an American worker and don't give a shit about poor suffering propaganda Iraqis or palestinians. Truthfully, I have not met one person here who is against a war to disarm Iraq. That crazy fucker gassed his own people. A nationwide strike is about as likley as you doing the world a favor and cutting your balls off so it can be a more pleasant place for my kids.
Put down the crack pipe and snap out of it.
Put down the crack pipe and snap out of it.
"Um.. I'm an American worker and don't give a shit about poor suffering propaganda Iraqis or palestinians. Truthfully, I have not met one person here who is against a war to disarm Iraq. That crazy fucker gassed his own people. A nationwide strike is about as likley as you doing the world a favor and cutting your balls off so it can be a more pleasant place for my kids. "
This American worker proves my point to a T. The American people and American workers are a bunch of fascistic Nazis to the core.
That's why the world hates you all with a vengeance and will give you want you deserve.
As for you Radian, you need to do the right thing to make the world a better place, and cut the fuck off your own balls and put them down your own throat. I'm sure the Humane Society would bemore than happy to take this on as a public service and spade and neuter you and yours as soon as possible.
This American worker proves my point to a T. The American people and American workers are a bunch of fascistic Nazis to the core.
That's why the world hates you all with a vengeance and will give you want you deserve.
As for you Radian, you need to do the right thing to make the world a better place, and cut the fuck off your own balls and put them down your own throat. I'm sure the Humane Society would bemore than happy to take this on as a public service and spade and neuter you and yours as soon as possible.
Why would any self proclaimed communist support nation states of the middle east, inparticular Iraq? All nation states are imperialist by nature. We should be supporting proletarian uprising, an example being the one in Iraq in 1991 which was put down by the west, Ba'athist and the Kurdish nationalists in 1991.
http://www.geocities.com/icgcikg/communism/c11_addnotes.htm
The US is just the super power at the moment, but it won't be forever. Instead of endlessly bashing the US for waging capitalist oppression and imperialism like every capitalist state does to some degree, and would to the degree which the US does if they COULD, we should be working to create class consciousness here and abroad. To denounce nationalism in ALL FORMS, to embrace revolutionary defeatism, and denounce the myth of "race," uniting in proletarian solidarity across all skin colors, is the only way to abolish the state and capitalist civilisation, not by lowering ourselves to engage in third world capitalism/nationalism because they are merely the little fish or underdog. The US working class has been revolutionary in the past and it will be again. In the near future, there are going to be many confused American proletarians, especially now that the government is starting to oppress it's own people in the name of "national security," are you going to be there to embrace them and teach them revolutionary solidarity with the exploited of the world or disgrace them and alienate them with your arrogance?
http://www.geocities.com/icgcikg/communism/c11_addnotes.htm
The US is just the super power at the moment, but it won't be forever. Instead of endlessly bashing the US for waging capitalist oppression and imperialism like every capitalist state does to some degree, and would to the degree which the US does if they COULD, we should be working to create class consciousness here and abroad. To denounce nationalism in ALL FORMS, to embrace revolutionary defeatism, and denounce the myth of "race," uniting in proletarian solidarity across all skin colors, is the only way to abolish the state and capitalist civilisation, not by lowering ourselves to engage in third world capitalism/nationalism because they are merely the little fish or underdog. The US working class has been revolutionary in the past and it will be again. In the near future, there are going to be many confused American proletarians, especially now that the government is starting to oppress it's own people in the name of "national security," are you going to be there to embrace them and teach them revolutionary solidarity with the exploited of the world or disgrace them and alienate them with your arrogance?
with our sarin nerve gas. the same hapless kurds were also setup for slaughter by bushit1. or don't you read? Sadamn made the oil and war corps over 100 billion ,and that was just kuwait! texas war corps made 79 billion. Wake the fuck up...propaganda works best with a villan.
Sarin was made in Iraq with Eurotrash equipment. Please spare me the lesson in history. The French, Russians, and various nations including the US sold Saddam material to build an army. Whoever he bought it from is irrelevent the fact that it was used is a seperate issue.
Personally I believe that Bush sr. screwed up by leaving Saddam in power the first time arount to appease his arab coalition members. I don't think that will be a problem this time around. We seem to be having luck backing dissident groups to overthrow goverments, mabye the kurds will get another chance.
Everything is propaganda, truth exists only in the mind.
Personally I believe that Bush sr. screwed up by leaving Saddam in power the first time arount to appease his arab coalition members. I don't think that will be a problem this time around. We seem to be having luck backing dissident groups to overthrow goverments, mabye the kurds will get another chance.
Everything is propaganda, truth exists only in the mind.
Truth doesn't exist in a mind polluted with propaganda. Yours' is a case in point, Radian.
Bush Sr. didn't allow Hussein to stay in power out of felicity to the "Arab Coalition". He was allowed to keep state power because the US sought to maintain a balance of power in the region. Thus the US massacred thousands of retreating Iraqi conscripts (remember the "Highway of Death"?) while giving Hussein's elite forces carte blanche to smash uprisings against his rule. Standard operating procedure for the US.
"We seem to be having luck backing dissident groups to overthrow goverments, mabye the kurds will get another chance."
To this I would suggest that you take a good look at Afghanistan these days: the US puppet, Karzai, doesn't even control all of Kabul, say nothing for the rest of Afghanistan.
I'll take up "phony progressive" and his baby tantrum that the US working class hasn't launched a general strike against this supposedly incipient war at another time.
Bush Sr. didn't allow Hussein to stay in power out of felicity to the "Arab Coalition". He was allowed to keep state power because the US sought to maintain a balance of power in the region. Thus the US massacred thousands of retreating Iraqi conscripts (remember the "Highway of Death"?) while giving Hussein's elite forces carte blanche to smash uprisings against his rule. Standard operating procedure for the US.
"We seem to be having luck backing dissident groups to overthrow goverments, mabye the kurds will get another chance."
To this I would suggest that you take a good look at Afghanistan these days: the US puppet, Karzai, doesn't even control all of Kabul, say nothing for the rest of Afghanistan.
I'll take up "phony progressive" and his baby tantrum that the US working class hasn't launched a general strike against this supposedly incipient war at another time.
The US working class will go on a "general revolt" about the same time you shoot your self to prevent the spread of stupidity. I am working class, and live in a working class millitary town. No one I know who works for the millitary or companies here is ready to walk around banging pots and pans in the street. Who are you fucking kidding. SF is not the rest of the country.
In a war any soldier is fair game retreating or not. War is not a fucking game. Oh the Republican Guard had the shit bombed out of it by b-52's and its tanks blown up with DU rounds.
I reaffirm my statement that saddam got to stay because of the limited scope of the UN resolution. That doesn't apply this time around..He's fucked.
cheers
In a war any soldier is fair game retreating or not. War is not a fucking game. Oh the Republican Guard had the shit bombed out of it by b-52's and its tanks blown up with DU rounds.
I reaffirm my statement that saddam got to stay because of the limited scope of the UN resolution. That doesn't apply this time around..He's fucked.
cheers
>"Why would any self proclaimed communist support nation states of the middle east, inparticular Iraq? All nation states are imperialist by nature.
The US is just the super power at the moment, but it won't be forever. Instead of endlessly bashing the US for waging capitalist oppression and imperialism like every capitalist state does to some degree, and would to the degree which the US does if they COULD, we should be working to create class consciousness here and abroad. To denounce nationalism in ALL FORMS, to embrace revolutionary defeatism, and denounce the myth of "race," uniting in proletarian solidarity across all skin colors, is the only way to abolish the state and capitalist civilisation, not by lowering ourselves to engage in third world capitalism/nationalism because they are merely the little fish or underdog. "
>
All nations are "imperialist"? Bullshit. You don't know what you are talking about. Imperialism has to do with the economic, political, and military domination by the "First World" of the Third World in order to exploit their wealth, resources and markets--and thus maintain your obscene standard of living. Iraq in particular has been colonized through Illegal No-Fly Zones, sanctions, and bombing. And you are trying to call THEM imperialist? Get real. All this rhetoric about Internationalism--though well-intentioned and noble--should not be used to obscure the complicity of First World and American "radicals" in their Empire.
"I'll take up 'phony progressiv'" and his baby tantrum that the US working class hasn't launched a general strike against this supposedly incipient war at another time."
That's fucking funny. Who the hell are you, some AFL-CIA hack? You clueless Liberals can rant all you want about the "progressive" American working class, but fascist workers like Radian will prove you wrong every damn time.
Action talks and bullshit walks. And we all know what the vaunted American working class and unions are all about.
The US is just the super power at the moment, but it won't be forever. Instead of endlessly bashing the US for waging capitalist oppression and imperialism like every capitalist state does to some degree, and would to the degree which the US does if they COULD, we should be working to create class consciousness here and abroad. To denounce nationalism in ALL FORMS, to embrace revolutionary defeatism, and denounce the myth of "race," uniting in proletarian solidarity across all skin colors, is the only way to abolish the state and capitalist civilisation, not by lowering ourselves to engage in third world capitalism/nationalism because they are merely the little fish or underdog. "
>
All nations are "imperialist"? Bullshit. You don't know what you are talking about. Imperialism has to do with the economic, political, and military domination by the "First World" of the Third World in order to exploit their wealth, resources and markets--and thus maintain your obscene standard of living. Iraq in particular has been colonized through Illegal No-Fly Zones, sanctions, and bombing. And you are trying to call THEM imperialist? Get real. All this rhetoric about Internationalism--though well-intentioned and noble--should not be used to obscure the complicity of First World and American "radicals" in their Empire.
"I'll take up 'phony progressiv'" and his baby tantrum that the US working class hasn't launched a general strike against this supposedly incipient war at another time."
That's fucking funny. Who the hell are you, some AFL-CIA hack? You clueless Liberals can rant all you want about the "progressive" American working class, but fascist workers like Radian will prove you wrong every damn time.
Action talks and bullshit walks. And we all know what the vaunted American working class and unions are all about.
Long time ago, Iraq was part of what was know as Persia. The conquered from Greece to China. They were "Impiralist". Now their gone. Then there was Alexander the Great, Rome, The Mongels, The Britsh. They rose and fell. SOmeday The U.S. will collapse too, (I give it at least 150 years) and some one will step in to take our place. Thats the bitch of it. SOmeone is gonna take over some piece of land at some point. Don't like it, but thats how its gonna be.
Who the fuck are you?
What the fuck are you doing?
FYI, I've put my ass on the line. I've had my ass-kicked by police. I've helped lead a wildcat strike of more than 35 poorly paid wage-workers, very much against the wishes of the AFL unionists. I've been targeted by scabs. I've been hated by union bugs. Fuck you.
If you live in the US, I can't imagine what the fuck you do here to make radical -- let alone revolutionary -- change.
"Hey all you parasites (who work 40-60 hours a week and just make rent), with your obscene lunches at Denny's, it's time to die for revolution so you can work harder for less!"
Is that your banner, dickhead?
What the fuck are you doing?
FYI, I've put my ass on the line. I've had my ass-kicked by police. I've helped lead a wildcat strike of more than 35 poorly paid wage-workers, very much against the wishes of the AFL unionists. I've been targeted by scabs. I've been hated by union bugs. Fuck you.
If you live in the US, I can't imagine what the fuck you do here to make radical -- let alone revolutionary -- change.
"Hey all you parasites (who work 40-60 hours a week and just make rent), with your obscene lunches at Denny's, it's time to die for revolution so you can work harder for less!"
Is that your banner, dickhead?
If I recall correctly, Iraq under the Ba'athist party invaded a small country called Kuwait in an attempt to control oil reserves on the border of the two countries. This isn't imperialist? How does this differ from the US coming to invade Iraq for it's natural resources? All states are imperialist by definition, in that they use economic and military means to secure resources for their own capitalist class. The US is an imperialist giant, but that doesn't mean we are suppose to support smaller imperialist powers against it. Saddam is a butcher and has slaughtered the working class in Iraq for decades, why should I support him against the US and why should I encourage the Iraqis to support him while they will most likely be used as cannon fodder in any war with the US, so Saddam can most likely try to escape unscathed? Are you going to tell the communists in Iraq which were slaughtered by the Ba'athist with the support of UN coalition forces in 1991 that they should support either side? Defending capitalist states is reactionary and self-defeating, instead we should be supporting organized revolutionary insurrections in Iraq and every where else. People like you who talk about defending the "third world" states, "good capitalism against bad capitalism," always end up being opportunists, using communist rhetoric to hide your own capitalist desires for national strength. The working class HAS NO NATION, we are the cannon fodder for the elite, we are the first to die in any imperialist war between rivial states. I must ask why you encourage action that would result in our own decimation?
>If I recall correctly, Iraq under the Ba'athist party invaded a small country called Kuwait
I do recall correctly. Imperial Britain invaded Mesopotamia and created both Iraq and Kuwait from whole cloth. Why should anyone who lives in the area feel obligated to obey the dictates of imperial Britain? By what right do imperialists draw up maps of the world?
I do recall correctly. Imperial Britain invaded Mesopotamia and created both Iraq and Kuwait from whole cloth. Why should anyone who lives in the area feel obligated to obey the dictates of imperial Britain? By what right do imperialists draw up maps of the world?
Britian was an imperialist state which carved up the middle east to it's benefit like any state would do if it had the ability. States are imperialist and competitive, it's their capitalist nature. The states of the middle east are in constant conflict because they are imperialist. Iraq was taking imperialist action when it invaded Kuwait to take it's oil, the fact that Britian created both Iraq and Kuwait is irrelevent. Those states were created to fufill their own capitalist interests in the region, and WERE created with the well wishes of the royal familes which were placed in power, while the exploited were ignored. Iraq followed it's interests when it attempted to annex Kuwait against that state's will. So again, why should the working class, the cannon fodder of these imperialist wars of conquest and inter-state rivalry, give up their lives to fatten the capitalists of their respective countries? And why would any communist support such a reactionary position which results in the decimation of our comrades in the middle east?
I am reposting my comments to Aaron because, apparently SFIMC decided to censor and remove my post.
"Who the fuck are you?
What the fuck are you doing?"
I am organizing, protesting, and opposing your fucked up Evil Empire and its bloody wars around the world.
What have you done about opposing America's never ending wars?
"FYI, I've put my ass on the line. I've had my ass-kicked by police. I've helped lead a wildcat strike of more than 35 poorly paid wage-workers, very much against the wishes of the AFL unionists. I've been targeted by scabs. I've been hated by union bugs. Fuck you. "
What the fuck do you want, a friggin' medal? Or a pat on the head? You ain't getting any sympathy from anyone, you whining fuck.
And what the hell do your personal strikes have to do with opposing any war? What do these strikes have to do with the American working class in general?
"If you live in the US, I can't imagine what the fuck you do here to make radical -- let alone revolutionary -- change.
'Hey all you parasites (who work 40-60 hours a week and just make rent), with your obscene lunches at Denny's, it's time to die for revolution so you can work harder for less!"
Is that your banner, dickhead?"
What the fuck are you talking about? Is English your native language? In my previous posts, I said that it is time for all you Americans (including you working class Americans) to put the fuck up or shut the fuck up.
Don't try to portray yourself as some peace loving people when you don't have the will or the guts to even mount a goddamned strike.
You know very well the American working class is self-serving to the core. The only thing they understand is their own self-interest--nothing more. They don't give a rats ass or a damn about how many millions of people around the world you kill and murder--all so you can live you fucked up way of life. Stop trying to deny this truth or pretend otherwise.
*********************
And as for you "Red Sam," you are still wrong. Iraq is not imperialist. What you are doing is to manipulate the definition of Imperialism itself--in order to deflect attention and responsibility from American and other First World nations (of which you are a citizen). This is a technique called muddying the waters. "Everybody is imperialist; hence American imperialism ain't that bad."
Iraq attacking Kuwai was not imperialist. Imperialism is not simply about one country attacking another. Imperialism is the political, economic, and strategic *relationship* through which the advanced capitalist nations exploit and dominate the less developed nations (i.e the Third World). The use of military aggression is merely a tool by which this relationship is maintained and upheld by the (Imperialist) First World.
You say that "all states" are imperialist. Is Grenada imperialist by your defintion? How about Burundi? How about Cuba? How about the Haiti? How many military bases do these countries have around the world--unlike say America or the West?
Finally, you are right to suggest that one should not support the national bourgeosie of any nation (First or Third World), but you are wrong to slap the label of 'Imperialist' indiscriminately on everybodyin order to get this point across.
You are right about the working class should not serving the national bourgeosie of any nation. But you are dead wrong in trying to suggest that there is a moral or political equivalence between workers in the First and Third Worlds. Have you heard of something called the International Division of Labor?
"Who the fuck are you?
What the fuck are you doing?"
I am organizing, protesting, and opposing your fucked up Evil Empire and its bloody wars around the world.
What have you done about opposing America's never ending wars?
"FYI, I've put my ass on the line. I've had my ass-kicked by police. I've helped lead a wildcat strike of more than 35 poorly paid wage-workers, very much against the wishes of the AFL unionists. I've been targeted by scabs. I've been hated by union bugs. Fuck you. "
What the fuck do you want, a friggin' medal? Or a pat on the head? You ain't getting any sympathy from anyone, you whining fuck.
And what the hell do your personal strikes have to do with opposing any war? What do these strikes have to do with the American working class in general?
"If you live in the US, I can't imagine what the fuck you do here to make radical -- let alone revolutionary -- change.
'Hey all you parasites (who work 40-60 hours a week and just make rent), with your obscene lunches at Denny's, it's time to die for revolution so you can work harder for less!"
Is that your banner, dickhead?"
What the fuck are you talking about? Is English your native language? In my previous posts, I said that it is time for all you Americans (including you working class Americans) to put the fuck up or shut the fuck up.
Don't try to portray yourself as some peace loving people when you don't have the will or the guts to even mount a goddamned strike.
You know very well the American working class is self-serving to the core. The only thing they understand is their own self-interest--nothing more. They don't give a rats ass or a damn about how many millions of people around the world you kill and murder--all so you can live you fucked up way of life. Stop trying to deny this truth or pretend otherwise.
*********************
And as for you "Red Sam," you are still wrong. Iraq is not imperialist. What you are doing is to manipulate the definition of Imperialism itself--in order to deflect attention and responsibility from American and other First World nations (of which you are a citizen). This is a technique called muddying the waters. "Everybody is imperialist; hence American imperialism ain't that bad."
Iraq attacking Kuwai was not imperialist. Imperialism is not simply about one country attacking another. Imperialism is the political, economic, and strategic *relationship* through which the advanced capitalist nations exploit and dominate the less developed nations (i.e the Third World). The use of military aggression is merely a tool by which this relationship is maintained and upheld by the (Imperialist) First World.
You say that "all states" are imperialist. Is Grenada imperialist by your defintion? How about Burundi? How about Cuba? How about the Haiti? How many military bases do these countries have around the world--unlike say America or the West?
Finally, you are right to suggest that one should not support the national bourgeosie of any nation (First or Third World), but you are wrong to slap the label of 'Imperialist' indiscriminately on everybodyin order to get this point across.
You are right about the working class should not serving the national bourgeosie of any nation. But you are dead wrong in trying to suggest that there is a moral or political equivalence between workers in the First and Third Worlds. Have you heard of something called the International Division of Labor?
First off, I'll say that it's fucked up that your post got erased.
In your above post you make it appear that my quick reference to my organizing at the 'point of production' was in response to your asking what I've done to stop US imperialism. It wasn't, and you know that. I was responding to your charge that I'm a liberal "AFL-CIA" schmuck. Got it? Unlike you, I was attempting to answer your "question" with a degree of specificity. Shit, I still don't even know if you live in the US. Do you? If so, I'm honestly curious to know on what basis you seek to organize working class people against capital. Or is the US working class supposed to organize against itself (which is what, in effect, I believe they're already doing through the AFL, to the extent that the working class acts through such channels)? Clearly, you'd be opposed to striking for wage concessions, because by your lights US wage-slaves make enough as it is. So, I'm to assume that if you do in fact live in the US, and are engaged politically, that your message to fellow wage-slaves is to simply rise up (with no intermediate steps that would steel them for battle) against the empire, smash it, and for utterly self-less reasons. Do I understand you correctly? If so, you're an addled moonwalker.
In your above post you make it appear that my quick reference to my organizing at the 'point of production' was in response to your asking what I've done to stop US imperialism. It wasn't, and you know that. I was responding to your charge that I'm a liberal "AFL-CIA" schmuck. Got it? Unlike you, I was attempting to answer your "question" with a degree of specificity. Shit, I still don't even know if you live in the US. Do you? If so, I'm honestly curious to know on what basis you seek to organize working class people against capital. Or is the US working class supposed to organize against itself (which is what, in effect, I believe they're already doing through the AFL, to the extent that the working class acts through such channels)? Clearly, you'd be opposed to striking for wage concessions, because by your lights US wage-slaves make enough as it is. So, I'm to assume that if you do in fact live in the US, and are engaged politically, that your message to fellow wage-slaves is to simply rise up (with no intermediate steps that would steel them for battle) against the empire, smash it, and for utterly self-less reasons. Do I understand you correctly? If so, you're an addled moonwalker.
Iraq is imperialist because of it's cooperation with international capital and world trade, up until it turning "evil" in 1991. Cuba is imperialist when it sells it's labor cheap to european capitalists to enrich the ruling class of Cuba, Castro and his elite. Imperialism is a part of EVERY CAPITALIST STATE, because the leadership of every state happily involves itself in international capitalism, be it "socialist," democratic, fascist, or whatever. The ruling class of states are always competing and cooperating in clearly capitalist manners, fighting for resources, labor, and markets, because they are their for capital, not for the proletariat. Capitalist wars only break out when the differences of these "gentlemen" cannot be resolved through the established bodies for keeping the capitalist peace, UN, WTO, IMF, etc. No state is more "progressive" then another, because they are all involved deeply in the capitalist system. This is why I do not support Saddam against Bush, or Bush against Saddam. Revolutionary defeatism is the task of the proletariat, not picking a side. Throw away the "block of classes" and "military block" bullshit of the trots and maoists, the proletariat can only fight for it's self, no one else. Is the American working class benefiting greatly from US imperialism? Definitly, but that doesn't mean we should be encouraging the empowerment of the capitalist ruling class, ie. states, in the "third world," who would end up cooperating with the US, or whichever powerful state would come later, anyway.
"National liberation struggles, popular anti-imperialist wars... are specific expressions of the ideology which uses workers as cannon fodder in capitalist war. Imperialism is not a phenomenon particular to any one power or state. It is an inherent and invariant phenomenon of Capital itself: each atom of value valorising itself contains all the conditions of imperialist terrorism. This is why all the bourgeoisie is imperialist and, in practice, is inextricably linked with the most powerful fractions of world capital, not only by way of its direct participation in Limited Companies and international financial capital, but also through thousands of implicit or explicit deals.
The proletariat leads its own fight against its exploiters in the face of imperialist wars. In doing so it is considered indifferentist or a saboteur, but this is only a reflection of the coherence of world capital. The proletariat can never be indifferent to its own exploitation, nor can it ever accept a truce with its own exploiters under any pretext. On the contrary, the continuity and development of this fight against all oppressors lead it to gather in action with its class brothers over the whole planet as one single community of struggle against worldwide capital, a community upon which the international and internationalist organisation of the proletariat is based." - ICG
"National liberation struggles, popular anti-imperialist wars... are specific expressions of the ideology which uses workers as cannon fodder in capitalist war. Imperialism is not a phenomenon particular to any one power or state. It is an inherent and invariant phenomenon of Capital itself: each atom of value valorising itself contains all the conditions of imperialist terrorism. This is why all the bourgeoisie is imperialist and, in practice, is inextricably linked with the most powerful fractions of world capital, not only by way of its direct participation in Limited Companies and international financial capital, but also through thousands of implicit or explicit deals.
The proletariat leads its own fight against its exploiters in the face of imperialist wars. In doing so it is considered indifferentist or a saboteur, but this is only a reflection of the coherence of world capital. The proletariat can never be indifferent to its own exploitation, nor can it ever accept a truce with its own exploiters under any pretext. On the contrary, the continuity and development of this fight against all oppressors lead it to gather in action with its class brothers over the whole planet as one single community of struggle against worldwide capital, a community upon which the international and internationalist organisation of the proletariat is based." - ICG
Red Sam:
You seem to be changing the definition of IMperialism by the second. First you suggest that Imperialism has to do with one country attacking another. Now you suggest it has to do with the complicity of a nation's rulling class with capitalism.
Wrong. This is not Imperialism. This is called comprador capitalism. Look it up in your Marxist dictionary if you know what this means. By your definition, the colonized nations of the British Empire during the 19th-century would be considered "Imperialist" because their ruling elites acted in accordance with the dictates of international capitalism. This is of course nonsense.
Its obvious to me that what you and other Western "progressives" are more motivated by a desire to minimize the complicity and political bankruptcy of Western (and First World) workers in a system of First World dominanted capitalism and Imperial domination. What you are doing is hiding behind alot of radical sounding Marxist jargon about "Workers of the World Unite" to deny the fact that workers in the First World are looking at for their own asses first, middle, and last. (Just like yourself). This is why you have advoided by fundamental point: why don't workers in America oppose and rebel against the war their Empire wages around the war.
Capitalism and Imperialism are not some abstract Bogeymen as you make them out to be. These systems are dominanted, controlled, and serve the interests of First World and Western nations to an overwhelming degree. Workers in the First World (like yourself) have benefitted from this exploitative system, and as such, have a special responsibility oppose it by any means necessary.
Yes, solidarity between the international working class is important. But it has to begin at home.
******************************
As for you Aaron:
If the working class in America wants to protest the war--this is what you were referring to, wasn't it--they should go out and educate, organize, and picket to protest this upcoming massacre. Better yet, they could organize strikes by workers in strategic industries closely connected to the American War machine. Which company makes the cruise missile? Organize a strike there. What companies supply oil to the American navy and air force? Organize a strike there. What transportation and naval shipping docks does the American navy rely upon in its upcoming invasion of Iraq? Organize a strike there.
Best of all, the working class in AMerica has to wake up and understand that pro-corporate Unions (like the AFL-CIA) in the USA do not represent their interests. The political role of unions is to *contain* and *coopt* any kind of labor struggles--not to represent them. The best thing that could happen would be to discredit, challenge, and overthrow these capitalist Unions and create your own workers organizations.
You seem to be changing the definition of IMperialism by the second. First you suggest that Imperialism has to do with one country attacking another. Now you suggest it has to do with the complicity of a nation's rulling class with capitalism.
Wrong. This is not Imperialism. This is called comprador capitalism. Look it up in your Marxist dictionary if you know what this means. By your definition, the colonized nations of the British Empire during the 19th-century would be considered "Imperialist" because their ruling elites acted in accordance with the dictates of international capitalism. This is of course nonsense.
Its obvious to me that what you and other Western "progressives" are more motivated by a desire to minimize the complicity and political bankruptcy of Western (and First World) workers in a system of First World dominanted capitalism and Imperial domination. What you are doing is hiding behind alot of radical sounding Marxist jargon about "Workers of the World Unite" to deny the fact that workers in the First World are looking at for their own asses first, middle, and last. (Just like yourself). This is why you have advoided by fundamental point: why don't workers in America oppose and rebel against the war their Empire wages around the war.
Capitalism and Imperialism are not some abstract Bogeymen as you make them out to be. These systems are dominanted, controlled, and serve the interests of First World and Western nations to an overwhelming degree. Workers in the First World (like yourself) have benefitted from this exploitative system, and as such, have a special responsibility oppose it by any means necessary.
Yes, solidarity between the international working class is important. But it has to begin at home.
******************************
As for you Aaron:
If the working class in America wants to protest the war--this is what you were referring to, wasn't it--they should go out and educate, organize, and picket to protest this upcoming massacre. Better yet, they could organize strikes by workers in strategic industries closely connected to the American War machine. Which company makes the cruise missile? Organize a strike there. What companies supply oil to the American navy and air force? Organize a strike there. What transportation and naval shipping docks does the American navy rely upon in its upcoming invasion of Iraq? Organize a strike there.
Best of all, the working class in AMerica has to wake up and understand that pro-corporate Unions (like the AFL-CIA) in the USA do not represent their interests. The political role of unions is to *contain* and *coopt* any kind of labor struggles--not to represent them. The best thing that could happen would be to discredit, challenge, and overthrow these capitalist Unions and create your own workers organizations.
I don't understand, however, how the following statement squares with your earlier suggestion that the AFL-CIO acts in the interests of "imperialist first world workers":
"Best of all, the working class in AMerica has to wake up and understand that pro-corporate Unions (like the AFL-CIA) in the USA do not represent their interests."
I, of course, agree with this statement, but why do you?
For the record, I think it's accurate to say that the prospective war with Iraq will be to preserve and extend a system within which American workers are in a relatively privileged position. The war will be to defend a US dominated global system in which there are gradations of status along national lines. But it doesn't follow that US workers gain from this war or from capital's continued devastation of life -- socially, ecologically, culturally etc etc.
I think that you make some good points "fuck phony progressives". American society is a wasteful blight, and there is no question that American workers are part of that.
"Best of all, the working class in AMerica has to wake up and understand that pro-corporate Unions (like the AFL-CIA) in the USA do not represent their interests."
I, of course, agree with this statement, but why do you?
For the record, I think it's accurate to say that the prospective war with Iraq will be to preserve and extend a system within which American workers are in a relatively privileged position. The war will be to defend a US dominated global system in which there are gradations of status along national lines. But it doesn't follow that US workers gain from this war or from capital's continued devastation of life -- socially, ecologically, culturally etc etc.
I think that you make some good points "fuck phony progressives". American society is a wasteful blight, and there is no question that American workers are part of that.
Attacking other nations is the manifestation of imperialist CONFLICT, when international bodies keeping the capitalists peace either fail, or a more powerful nation decides to directly destroy the abilities of a rival state to compet with them. How can you deny the complete cultability of states in their exploitation of their own proletarians in this time of compelte capitalist domination? I am not trying to make excuses for the US government or society, I am merely stating the fact that "national liberation" struggles are inherently reactionary and IMPERIALIST, because they do not liberate the working class of that society but further enslave them to the capitalist system of competition and exploitation, world capital. At this time of complete capitalist domination, what would be the point of "national liberation" struggles? The whole point of them, in Lenin's view, was to develop the means of production of those countries independently from imperialist domination, but at this time capitalist production is every where, making all states who freely compete in the world market imperialist as well. So, one can only come to the conclusion that third world nationalists, hiding behind the veil of "marxism," merely want a stronger, MORE CAPITALIST state! And of course, this can be seen clearly if we look at the history of "national liberation" struggles, especially in south america. Nationalism is a disese, a cancer seeping away the strength of the working class. You make good points about the reactionary character of much of the US working class, which is due to a long history of working class defeat and counter-revolution internationally, as well as the disese of nationalism, but this disese can be found, for the most part, EVERY WHERE. That is why nationalism in all forms needs to be defeated, as well as backwards religious movements, otherwise the slaughter of proletarians will only continue.
You talk about "western progressives," may I ask where you are from?
You talk about "western progressives," may I ask where you are from?
Aaron:
"I don't understand, however, how the following statement squares with your earlier suggestion that the AFL-CIO acts in the interests of "imperialist first world workers":
'Best of all, the working class in AMerica has to wake up and understand that pro-corporate Unions (like the AFL-CIA) in the USA do not represent their interests.'
I, of course, agree with this statement, but why do you?"
I don't believe I said the AFL-CIO acts in the interests of "Imperialists first world workers." I was trying to suggest that 1). Unions like the AFL-CIO work to preserve and protect the American capitalist and American Imperialist system in general. 2). Part of this function entails coopting, containing, and domesticating any potential radical workers struggle or movement in the United States 3). The Working Class in the USA is to a significant degree a Labor Aristocracy. 4). One of the primary reasons for making this assessment is their political apathy--or worse yet--overt support for American Imperialist wars around the world.
*************
Red Sam:
"Attacking other nations is the manifestation of imperialist CONFLICT, when international bodies keeping the capitalists peace either fail, or a more powerful nation decides to directly destroy the abilities of a rival state to compet with them. How can you deny the complete cultability of states in their exploitation of their own proletarians in this time of compelte capitalist domination?"
Again, not to beat a dead horse, but I think the problem lies in the lack of a precise defintion of Imperialism. I suggest that Imperialism is a system, a relationship of domination--if you will--between the most advanced capitalist states and the less Developed (capitalist) states (i.e. the Third World). This relationship is political, economic, ideological, cultural, and of course military. This is where the idea of the International Division of Labor I mentioned earlier comes in.
I agree that these Third World states are *complicit* in this system of global Imperialism, but I disagree on using the label of Imperialism to describe them. IN other words, the label of Imperialism should be applied to those Advanced capitalist states which are the primary actors or drivers of Imperialism itself.
This is why I mentioned the concept of Comprador Capitalism in order to understand and describe the complicitous role or function of the Third World capitalist states in this broader globalized system
" I am not trying to make excuses for the US government or society, I am merely stating the fact that "national liberation" struggles are inherently reactionary and IMPERIALIST, because they do not liberate the working class of that society but further enslave them to the capitalist system of competition and exploitation, world capital. At this time of complete capitalist domination, what would be the point of "national liberation" struggles?"
If you go and back and review my previous messages, I don't you think you will find anywhere that I suggest that one should support these Third World Nationalist struggles per se. I think you confuse *opposition* to Western/ First World Imperialism with fundamental support for Third World nationalism. That said, how would you approach the situation in Venezuela for example--from a concrete perspective and not merely from the Olympian heights of what is Politically Correct according to Marxian theory?
Also, I think in your comments you tend to talk about Capitalism and Imperialism as highly abstract entitites rather than as they operate in real life. IN particular, the global capitalist system is one which is overwhelming dominated by the USA, Europe, and Japan. In terms of Imperialism, it is the USA which overwhelming dominates this arena--even in comparison to other leading capitalist states.
Below is a good link to an article about the relationship between the Cold War and the Terror War. The author argues that the latter is merely an extension of the former and that in both cases what is fundamentally involved is a North-South conflict in which the USA seeks to:
1). To prevent any country--or group of countries--from straying from the Capitalist Development path
2). To prevent the development of any country--or group of countries--which can challenge American supremacy even within this global Capitalist system.
As for my background, I am currently living in the USA.
"I don't understand, however, how the following statement squares with your earlier suggestion that the AFL-CIO acts in the interests of "imperialist first world workers":
'Best of all, the working class in AMerica has to wake up and understand that pro-corporate Unions (like the AFL-CIA) in the USA do not represent their interests.'
I, of course, agree with this statement, but why do you?"
I don't believe I said the AFL-CIO acts in the interests of "Imperialists first world workers." I was trying to suggest that 1). Unions like the AFL-CIO work to preserve and protect the American capitalist and American Imperialist system in general. 2). Part of this function entails coopting, containing, and domesticating any potential radical workers struggle or movement in the United States 3). The Working Class in the USA is to a significant degree a Labor Aristocracy. 4). One of the primary reasons for making this assessment is their political apathy--or worse yet--overt support for American Imperialist wars around the world.
*************
Red Sam:
"Attacking other nations is the manifestation of imperialist CONFLICT, when international bodies keeping the capitalists peace either fail, or a more powerful nation decides to directly destroy the abilities of a rival state to compet with them. How can you deny the complete cultability of states in their exploitation of their own proletarians in this time of compelte capitalist domination?"
Again, not to beat a dead horse, but I think the problem lies in the lack of a precise defintion of Imperialism. I suggest that Imperialism is a system, a relationship of domination--if you will--between the most advanced capitalist states and the less Developed (capitalist) states (i.e. the Third World). This relationship is political, economic, ideological, cultural, and of course military. This is where the idea of the International Division of Labor I mentioned earlier comes in.
I agree that these Third World states are *complicit* in this system of global Imperialism, but I disagree on using the label of Imperialism to describe them. IN other words, the label of Imperialism should be applied to those Advanced capitalist states which are the primary actors or drivers of Imperialism itself.
This is why I mentioned the concept of Comprador Capitalism in order to understand and describe the complicitous role or function of the Third World capitalist states in this broader globalized system
" I am not trying to make excuses for the US government or society, I am merely stating the fact that "national liberation" struggles are inherently reactionary and IMPERIALIST, because they do not liberate the working class of that society but further enslave them to the capitalist system of competition and exploitation, world capital. At this time of complete capitalist domination, what would be the point of "national liberation" struggles?"
If you go and back and review my previous messages, I don't you think you will find anywhere that I suggest that one should support these Third World Nationalist struggles per se. I think you confuse *opposition* to Western/ First World Imperialism with fundamental support for Third World nationalism. That said, how would you approach the situation in Venezuela for example--from a concrete perspective and not merely from the Olympian heights of what is Politically Correct according to Marxian theory?
Also, I think in your comments you tend to talk about Capitalism and Imperialism as highly abstract entitites rather than as they operate in real life. IN particular, the global capitalist system is one which is overwhelming dominated by the USA, Europe, and Japan. In terms of Imperialism, it is the USA which overwhelming dominates this arena--even in comparison to other leading capitalist states.
Below is a good link to an article about the relationship between the Cold War and the Terror War. The author argues that the latter is merely an extension of the former and that in both cases what is fundamentally involved is a North-South conflict in which the USA seeks to:
1). To prevent any country--or group of countries--from straying from the Capitalist Development path
2). To prevent the development of any country--or group of countries--which can challenge American supremacy even within this global Capitalist system.
As for my background, I am currently living in the USA.
For more information:
http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/oct2002-dai...
Hey Redsam;
Drop me a line via e-mail, if you like, I'd like to hear more about your perspectives.
Communist greetings, and destroy Maoism,
Tibor Szamuely
kapdparis [at] yahoo.com
Drop me a line via e-mail, if you like, I'd like to hear more about your perspectives.
Communist greetings, and destroy Maoism,
Tibor Szamuely
kapdparis [at] yahoo.com
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