Students for Genital Integrity

Congratulations to San Francisco State and to student Greg Dervin for taking a stand on this fundamental civil liberties and human rights issue! Everyone has the right to keep all the body parts he or she was born with.

Umm, can I just suggest that this is not the most effective name to choose for this group? The joke possibilites are boundless. I can think of about 50 without even trying.

Talk about humorless feminists!

Today's high school and college students will soon be the parents of the next generation of children. It's great to see that they are getting the word out about this important human rights issue--that they understand the value of letting each person keep the body he or she was born with. These young people can ensure that more babies are spared this atrocity!

Go SGI!

Especially for putting MGM in the context of feminism...highly overlooked.

FAB

Students are in the best position to have the most impact on protecting children's human rights to intact genitals. Thank you for stepping up to the task.

University men that were circumcised as infants might not yet know what was done to them. Circumcised students that have investigated circumcision, and worked to restore a facsimile foreskin through Foreskin Restoration have universally reported better sex. Their partners appreciate it, too.

For those interested in seeing what a circumcision looks like, Lawrence Barichello of INTACT has made available Intact's Circumcision Video.

Students will make the difference. Many children will thank you when they're older.

Gary Burlingame

SGI is not a feminist organization. Please improve your reading skills. Also, I'm assuming your "jokes" are all along the lines of having the word "genital" in the name? Very clever. Funny too. Nice going, chump.

peace

FAB

It is good to see this issue being discussed at the university level. Genital Integrity is the overlapping issue of feminism and men's rights. Regardless of people's gender, whether male, female or intersexed, they all have a right to an intact body. Women have protection against this assault, so should men and the intersexed. To say otherwise is to declare yourself sexist.

There seems to have been an error in uploading the audio file. Here it is:

First of all, only MGM has anything to do with judaism, FGM and IGM are completely unrelated to it. Male circumcision in the United States has little to do with judaism either. However, fear of being labeled anti-semitic is ONE of the reasons why it persists here.

Circumcision was medicalized in America in the late 1800s as a means to stop little boys from masturbating. (It didn't work). It was understood then that the foreskin is an integral part of men's sexuality, and that was a direct reason why it was removed: lessen their sexuality, but still allow for procreation. All other sex is sinful anyway. The initial reason for it has been forgotten, but the practice continues.

FINALLY.

The negative truth about male circumcision finally is getting out. There are no benefits to this procedure, but only damage done to the natural functioning of the penis. Every child has the right to do with his body as he sees fit and to enjoy the benefits of that body. Sexual mutilation should never be culturally sanctioned. Male circumcision must be made illegal in the US as was done with female circumncision in 1998.

>SGI is not about anti-semitism


This referred to a previous post which was very anti-Semitic and so was hidden.

Chopping off all or part of one's own or anyone else's healthy sex organs is criminally insane. You live on a planet with LOTS of anatomically ignorant and EXTREMELY dangerous nut cases running around loose calling themselves doctors. Please act to stop them RIGHT NOW!

Sign the "Ashley Montagu Resolution to End the Genital Mutilation of Children Worldwide: A Petition to the World Court, the Hague", http://MontaguNOCIRCpetition.org . Join there Nobel Laureate supporters of the right to bodily integrity, Dr. Francis Crick, discoverer of DNA and Nobel Laureate in physiology and medicine (1962), and George Wald, Nobel Laureate in physiology and medicine (1967) and discoverer of vitamin A in the retina of the eye and how it works with light there to form the molecular basis of vision.

Circumcision is sick adults torturing, maiming, and sometimes killing healthy babies. All of this genital mutilation mayhem is medically unjustifiable, as every national and international medical organization in the world that has looked at the medical literature on the subject has admitted and agreed. No such organization recommends circumcision genital mutilation. Most recommend against it.

Then why won't they stop?

Because with today's circumcision circumcisers think they can help justify in the public's mind yesterday's circumcision and prepare the way for tomorrow's which they hope will justify in the public's mind today's. If they stop doing it they break this diabolical justification cycle and admit to the broad public that today's circumcision is medically unjustified and that means that so was yesterday's, and so would be tomorrow's. Circumcisers are trying to protect their assets and estates - instead of their patients' healthy sex organs and rights to bodily integrity - from the men and women of this country who will be enraged when they find out that US medicine has sold them the Emperor's New Clothes for 150 years, in the form of completely unnecessary sexual torture and lifetime sexual mutilation.

The circumcisers are trying to stay out of jail by continuing to commit their heinous sex crimes and continuing to pretend in public that mutilating healthy sex organs is normal. It is grossly abnormal and grossly abnormalizing. Most of them already know it.

Stop them.

We need your signature NOW.

http://MontaguNOCIRCpetition.org

Excellent article, it shows the purpose and goal of the SGI. I support their goals and will do all in my power to aid them in meeting these goals. Bravo, bravo for the fight to end genital alteration and mutilation for all of the world's children.

Serouisly, what's the big deal with circumsion of boys when their, like, 20 seconds old. They don't even remeber it! Plus, it really IS cleaner. Every uncircumsized guy I know says its kinda annoying to clean out in there. Seroiusly, is this that big a problem? I've never heard an uncircumsized or circumsized person lament to be the other way. Don't get me wrong FGM is terrible, espeically outside medical centers. IGM I'm not gonna touch with a 10 foot pole, but MGM? I really think peoples time could be better spent. Oh, and fyi, I'm circumsized, and I have no sex probs at all, plus I'm not a rapist, and breastfeeding was no prob.

This is an excellent article highlighting an organization that will have a profound impact on many lives. It is high time that these issues be addressed and to see an organization of young people taking up the cause is good. May you find success in your efforts.

OK, let me respond piece by piece:

>Serouisly, what's the big deal with circumsion of boys >when their, like, 20 seconds old. They don't even >remeber it!

And what's the big deal if I masturbate and cum on my infant daughter's face? She'll never remember it, and HELL she isn't even HARMED by it!

>Plus, it really IS cleaner. Every uncircumsized guy I >know says its kinda annoying to clean out in there.

Are you kidding me? What do you think it takes to clean one's intact penis? Take shower, pull back foreskin, let warm water run over it, let foreskin come back forward. Period. The end. I touch my penis more than that when i take a shower, and I'm circumcised! It's a helluva lot harder to clean your ears. Hell, you have to buy fucking cotton swabs from the store to clean your ears! Maybe we should just cut them off. While we're at it, let's knock out our teeth. It takes a full two minutes TWICE a day(!) to clean your teeth! And I don't know about you, but I'd rather hear a little worse, or have to put my food in a blender to eat before giving up the full potential of my sexual experience which has forever been stolen from me!

>Seroiusly, is this that big a problem?

I don't know, is it?

>I've never heard an uncircumsized or circumsized
>person lament to be the other way.

Wait, you mean you've never heard an non-circumcised person wish they were circumcised? So then, uhh, ever think that if YOU weren't forcibly circumcised, maybe YOU'd be glad you were intact too?

>Don't get me wrong FGM is terrible, espeically outside medical centers.

and if it was done in medical centers, would that be cool then?

> IGM I'm not gonna touch with a 10 foot pole,

All part of the same thing!

>but MGM? I really think peoples time could be better spent.

So tell me, how is time better spent then the protection of the powerless? It all starts with the children. If we don't have the right to our own intact bodies, what rights can we ever really have? This is all part of the bigger picture.

>Oh, and fyi, I'm circumsized, and I have no sex probs
>at all, plus I'm not a rapist, and breastfeeding was no
>prob.

Of course you are circumcized, i never doubted it reading your comment. Would an intact guy feel the need to defend the forced cutting a child's genitals? No. Only someone who this already happened to. Only someone who, consciously or not, needs to feel that it's not a big deal, it's a good thing. Otherwise, you have to admit that this was done to YOU. That YOU have had your genitals permanently altered against your wishes, and YOU will never know what sex is supposed to feel like. Who really wants to think about that?

Thanks for the great article. The links help clarify.

Josh sounds a bit bitter?

I know several grown men who've had the operation done for various reasons. You people are making this out to be much more than it really is.

Get yourselves a hobby or something.

Doctors Opposing Circumcision (DOC) applauds the formation of Students for Genital Integrity (SGI). The students of today are the parents of tomorrow, so they will need to know of the harmful effects of circumcision, so they can insist on genital integrity for their children.

About 75-80% of American men who are college students today suffered circumcision as an infant. Those men (although they may not be aware of it) have a sexual handicap due to the loss of their foreskin and its various erogenous and mechanical sexual functions. These men may partially regain their loss by undertaking foreskin restoration if they choose to do so.

Current foreskin restoration methods do not involve surgery. Tissue expansion techniques are used to expand the residual skin and mucosal membranes of the penis into the semblance of a foreskin. It is not perfect because the erogenous nerve-packed ridged band area of the penis cannot be restored. But most who try it are gratified by the results.

Foreskin restoration is somewhat time-consuming and troublesome so it is not for all. But for those who feel mutilated and deprived by their circumcision, it offers a chance to regain control over one’s own body.

Anecdotal evidence indicates that young adults achieve more rapid results, perhaps because there is more growth hormone in their bodies than in older adults. And they will have longer to enjoy the benefits of their restoration.

Abundant information about foreskin restoration is now available on the web. A search for “foreskin restoration” will produce lots of webpages.

George Hill
Executive Secretary
Doctors Opposing Circumcision
Suite 42
2442 NW Market Street
Seattle, WA 98107
Web: http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/

I've brought up this issue with both men and women I know, and a number of circumcized men are happy with what they've got, and don't have any serious complaints. My argument: Could it be that circumcision may be harmful only if you perceive it as such?

The argument against circumcision stands on a very solid ethical foundation. To speculate about violence and rape from circumcised peoples is to wedge a destabilizing block under that already rock solid foundation.
It is only to easy to throw around these unfounded premises as we watch the middle easterners attack eachother and we ourselves are caught up in anti- muslim hysteria. Don't be so quick to forget the uncircumcised Nazis, the uncircumcised spanish inquisition and the horrors of the uncircumcised american frontier, or on a smaller but current scale that gigantic pedophile rings in uncircumcised scandanavia.
There are plenty of other situations that could occur in a person's life by the time they become a raping murderous adult that would account for their lack of concience above and beyond being circumcised as in infant.
So let's not speculate on the future actions of the circumcised, but look at the current actions of the circumcisers. Circumcision itself is an act of sexual violence against children, and the case against circumcision can rest soundly right there.

uh, hi again. just another friendly note that the name of your group is not, you know, the best from a public relations perspective. holy cow, the late night letterman jokes are just going to roll in. so, um, you may want to revisit that name. the humorlessness of you folks is just, how shall i say it? a cause for mirth.

Ending the practice of male infant circumcision makes perfect sense.

After all, no national medical group in the world supports the practice.

That should be reason enough to cease cutting sexual tissue away from the bodies of unsuspecting children.

Shouldn't it?

I notice that the people who defend the practice of circumcision seem to take the position that it is not a "big deal" and those concerned for the well being of children need to "get a hobby", etc.

Well, if it is such a small deal, why are these people so determined to defend it?

When the reasons behind circumcision are gone - and clearly they are gone - all that is left is a bizare emotional or psycological attachment to this practice that involves cutting the genitals of children.

And, as long as we are more determined to protect our psycological attachment to circumcision than to protect the rights and well being of our children, circumcision will continue.

I, for one, think it is time to grow up a little and to accept that circumcision is not a good idea... even if that means accepting what was done to us... for our children had no part in beginning this practice and they have absolutely no way of seeing it end.

It's time for genital cutting to end.

Ending the practice of male infant circumcision makes perfect sense.

After all, no national medical group in the world supports the practice.

That should be reason enough to cease cutting sexual tissue away from the bodies of unsuspecting children.

Shouldn't it?

I notice that the people who defend the practice of circumcision seem to take the position that it is not a "big deal" and those concerned for the well being of children need to "get a hobby", etc.

Well, if it is such a small deal, why are these people so determined to defend it?

When the reasons behind circumcision are gone - and clearly they are gone - all that is left is a bizare emotional or psycological attachment to this practice that involves cutting the genitals of children.

And, as long as we are more determined to protect our psycological attachment to circumcision than to protect the rights and well being of our children, circumcision will continue.

I, for one, think it is time to grow up a little and to accept that circumcision is not a good idea... even if that means accepting what was done to us... for our children had no part in beginning this practice and they have absolutely no way of seeing it end.

It's time for adults to respect the rights of children.

It's time for genital cutting to end.

Piece-by-piece response:
"Doctors Opposing Circumcision (DOC) applauds the formation of Students for Genital Integrity (SGI). "

Well, finally, an UNBIASED endorsment!!! Oh, wait. Hey, I'll bet the "Society for Circumcision Is the Unholiest Cruelty in the Known Universe" is also an endorser. Heckuva a movement ya have here...but not the type of "movement" you'd like to believe.

"The students of today are the parents of tomorrow, so they will need to know of the harmful effects of circumcision, so they can insist on genital integrity for their children. "

Genital integrity? What, is my penis going to succumb to structural fatigue and break up from excessive G-force?

"About 75-80% of American men who are college students today suffered circumcision as an infant. "

"Suffered"? Didn't bother me one bit.

"Those men (although they may not be aware of it) have a sexual handicap due to the loss of their foreskin and its various erogenous and mechanical sexual functions. "

Um...no. This is an outright lie. You people, "although you may not be aware of it", are suffering from a latent phychological condition similar to penis envy. Disagree if you want, but it's true; you're just "not aware of it". Hey, look mom! I can be intellectually dishonest, too!

"These men may partially regain their loss by undertaking foreskin restoration if they choose to do so. "

You couldn't PAY me to. It's less sanitary and it's pointless. Seriously, the stink you people are putting up about this seems more of a type of jealousy to me. Look...if it bothers you so much, get circumsized yourself. To the rest of the world, you look like a bunch of whiners who feel insecure because all the men in the pornos you watch are circumsized, or you got teased in the locker room as a child one too many times. You're trying to mask your insecurities and revenge for unpleasant memories behind the guise of a pseudo-medical movement. It's pathetic and hypocritical. Get over it.

Quit trying to make up issues where they do not exist. The "statistics" in this argument provide no evidence of cause-and-effect. Making up ridiculous arguments from unrelated statistics and facts is easy. Watch: "The crime rate in the US is higher than in Europe. Europe is north of Africa. Therefore, crime is obviously directly related to proximity with Africa". Talk about minor-league debating tactics, but when your cause is as petty, illogical, and frivolous as this one, hey, what can ya do?

And in closing, comparing male circumcision with the female variety is asinine, through and through. The physical trauma of the former is negligible...having a tooth pulled is easily more traumatic...while the latter is severe and has no benefits, potential or otherwise.

Tying male circumcision in with the female variety is an obvious ploy to increase public outrage over the first.

That's pretty weak and dishonest. In fact, it's very similar to tactics employed by Pro-Lifer fanatics.

This is really a fascinating argument. Fanatic argues that circumcision is akin to child abuse, cites studies that say abused children grow up to be violent, aggresive, and criminal, and concludes (obviously) that circumcision leads children to grow up to be violent, aggressive, and criminal adults.

Great stuff guys. You've convinced us all. Like the last person, I see the startling similarities to the pro-life propaganda.

While I agree that FGM is rather barbaric and should be stopped, I disagree that male circumcision is barbaric, and I see no problem with it.

Looks like someone's still bitter about losing that 1/8" off the top. Give it up.

My two sons are intact. Why? Because there is no real medical reason to cut up their genitals.So far no problems. Also, their father is intact and I must say from my experience that I prefer him this way! For those with the disparaging remarks, the information about genital integrity is not at all related to anti- choice propaganda. Maybe you cannot see the truth when it's in front of your nose.

I'm personally very fond of a certain part. I'm glad it didn't get chopped off. To those who say it didn't bother them, ask your parents if you cried? I don't think you should feel like a victim if you are circumsized, sometimes people make a big deal about trauma to feel put upon, but why circumsize? It is a mostly irreversible decision. If the kid wants it later, let him get it himself. I know several parents who just went along with it and were horrified when they actually saw it happen.

I think it's more a control issue. You want your kid to look like you. Get over it. It's ok to tell your kids not to get tatoos, but when they turn 18, it's their decision. By getting them circumzised you are making a decision that they won't be able to reverse. If your a control freak, well, I guess I can't disuade you.

Congratulations! It's about time that a formal group was started to protect BOY babies. Baby girls are protected by federal law from forced genital surgery and the 14th amendment is supposed to give males equal protection. Especially welcome is a young-in-age group who recognizes the atrocities being committed right here in the U.S.A.

I think this is an excellent article. It's nice that young people are getting involved in trying to stop the horror that is circumcision.
Thanks for being active and outspoken about this horrendous practice.

Hey, I'm actually a PARENT and actually have RESEARCHED this issue....

And I totally agree with the authors.

Genital mutilation of babies is horrific. I challenge any "man" on this page who supports or defends it to watch a newborn boy strapped to a plastic backboard while he screams as a doctor cuts off part of his penis with NO anaesthetic.

Whether you can deal with your own circumcision or not, let's not force it upon our children.

I'm a post op transsexual woman and my genitals have been physically altered, but in my case it was what I needed to do. This was not a medical procedure dictated by anyone else but me.
And yes, I'm more than happy with the results.

I have friends who are born intersex and was surgically altered when they were newborns and many of them have struggled with the lies and deception from those who performed these surgeries on them and their parents who were told never to reval the truth about their medical history for their emotional well being when in fact the exact oppsite happened.

I believe your energy should be spent on making the medical profession understand that ANY medical procedures, surgeries on genitalia should be done with the exclusive consent of the given individual. No one else should determine what should be done to your body.

It is an over simplification to stop all genital surgeries; you cannot make such a generalization without looking at each and every individual's needs for these medical procedures.

Bernice

I'm a post op transsexual woman and my genitals have been physically altered, but in my case it was what I needed to do. This was not a medical procedure dictated by anyone else but me.
And yes, I'm more than happy with the results.

I have friends who are born intersex and was surgically altered when they were newborns and many of them have struggled with the lies and deception from those who performed these surgeries on them and their parents who were told never to reval the truth about their medical history for their emotional well being when in fact the exact oppsite happened.

I believe your energy should be spent on making the medical profession understand that ANY medical procedures, surgeries on genitalia should be done with the exclusive consent of the given individual. No one else should determine what should be done to your body.

It is an over simplification to stop all genital surgeries; you cannot make such a generalization without looking at each and every individual's needs for these medical procedures.

Bernice

I'm a post op transsexual woman and my genitals have been physically altered, but in my case it was what I needed to do. This was not a medical procedure dictated by anyone else but me.
And yes, I'm more than happy with the results.

I have friends who are born intersex and was surgically altered when they were newborns and many of them have struggled with the lies and deception from those who performed these surgeries on them and their parents who were told never to reval the truth about their medical history for their emotional well being when in fact the exact oppsite happened.

I believe your energy should be spent on making the medical profession understand that ANY medical procedures, surgeries on genitalia should be done with the exclusive consent of the given individual. No one else should determine what should be done to your body.

It is an over simplification to stop all genital surgeries; you cannot make such a generalization without looking at each and every individual's needs for these medical procedures.

Bernice

I'm a post op transsexual woman and my genitals have been physically altered, but in my case it was what I needed to do. This was not a medical procedure dictated by anyone else but me.
And yes, I'm more than happy with the results.

I have friends who are born intersex and was surgically altered when they were newborns and many of them have struggled with the lies and deception from those who performed these surgeries on them and their parents who were told never to reval the truth about their medical history for their emotional well being when in fact the exact oppsite happened.

I believe your energy should be spent on making the medical profession understand that ANY medical procedures, surgeries on genitalia should be done with the exclusive consent of the given individual. No one else should determine what should be done to your body.

It is an over simplification to stop all genital surgeries; you cannot make such a generalization without looking at each and every individual's needs for these medical procedures.

Bernice

I'm a post op transsexual woman and my genitals have been physically altered, but in my case it was what I needed to do. This was not a medical procedure dictated by anyone else but me.
And yes, I'm more than happy with the results.

I have friends who are born intersex and was surgically altered when they were newborns and many of them have struggled with the lies and deception from those who performed these surgeries on them and their parents who were told never to reval the truth about their medical history for their emotional well being when in fact the exact oppsite happened.

I believe your energy should be spent on making the medical profession understand that ANY medical procedures, surgeries on genitalia should be done with the exclusive consent of the given individual. No one else should determine what should be done to your body.

It is an over simplification to stop all genital surgeries; you cannot make such a generalization without looking at each and every individual's needs for these medical procedures.

Bernice

I'm a post op transsexual woman and my genitals have been physically altered, but in my case it was what I needed to do. This was not a medical procedure dictated by anyone else but me.
And yes, I'm more than happy with the results.

I have friends who are born intersex and was surgically altered when they were newborns and many of them have struggled with the lies and deception from those who performed these surgeries on them and their parents who were told never to reval the truth about their medical history for their emotional well being when in fact the exact oppsite happened.

I believe your energy should be spent on making the medical profession understand that ANY medical procedures, surgeries on genitalia should be done with the exclusive consent of the given individual. No one else should determine what should be done to your body.

It is an over simplification to stop all genital surgeries; you cannot make such a generalization without looking at each and every individual's needs for these medical procedures.

Bernice

I'm a post op transsexual woman and my genitals have been physically altered, but in my case it was what I needed to do. This was not a medical procedure dictated by anyone else but me.
And yes, I'm more than happy with the results.

I have friends who are born intersex and was surgically altered when they were newborns and many of them have struggled with the lies and deception from those who performed these surgeries on them and their parents who were told never to reval the truth about their medical history for their emotional well being when in fact the exact oppsite happened.

I believe your energy should be spent on making the medical profession understand that ANY medical procedures, surgeries on genitalia should be done with the exclusive consent of the given individual. No one else should determine what should be done to your body.

It is an over simplification to stop all genital surgeries; you cannot make such a generalization without looking at each and every individual's needs for these medical procedures.

Bernice

I'm a post op transsexual woman and my genitals have been physically altered, but in my case it was what I needed to do. This was not a medical procedure dictated by anyone else but me.
And yes, I'm more than happy with the results.

I have friends who are born intersex and was surgically altered when they were newborns and many of them have struggled with the lies and deception from those who performed these surgeries on them and their parents who were told never to reval the truth about their medical history for their emotional well being when in fact the exact oppsite happened.

I believe your energy should be spent on making the medical profession understand that ANY medical procedures, surgeries on genitalia should be done with the exclusive consent of the given individual. No one else should determine what should be done to your body.

It is an over simplification to stop all genital surgeries; you cannot make such a generalization without looking at each and every individual's needs for these medical procedures.

Bernice

I'm a post op transsexual woman and my genitals have been physically altered, but in my case it was what I needed to do. This was not a medical procedure dictated by anyone else but me.
And yes, I'm more than happy with the results.

I have friends who are born intersex and was surgically altered when they were newborns and many of them have struggled with the lies and deception from those who performed these surgeries on them and their parents who were told never to reval the truth about their medical history for their emotional well being when in fact the exact oppsite happened.

I believe your energy should be spent on making the medical profession understand that ANY medical procedures, surgeries on genitalia should be done with the exclusive consent of the given individual. No one else should determine what should be done to your body.

It is an over simplification to stop all genital surgeries; you cannot make such a generalization without looking at each and every individual's needs for these medical procedures.

Bernice

Bravo! Thank you for helping to expose this barbaric practice for what it really is. Someday our grandkids may not be exposed to what we were.

Bravo! Thank you for helping to expose this barbaric practice for what it really is. Someday our grandkids may not be exposed to what we were.

but it got knocked off - back it goes

I'm not circumcised, but I don't see the harm in it... it does seem that it would be cleaner, easier to urinate with... are there any bad effects other than the actual act?

If my 1st child would have been a male I would not have allowed it. I didn't want flashbulbs used for unrequested photos either. My mother was counciled not to breast feed !!! I have lenticular stigmatism as a result. The protein needed for lense development was absent from the formula.
Use of forceps and cutting so the gyn can get back to golf and antibiotics for anything and over 110000 people die from woops? wrong drug or guess.
The first sensation received and transmitted by the most wonderfully sensitive part of a males body should not be PAIN. I'd like to see a person who profits from this come forward and state their view.
Some that see their newborn as an empty vessel ,
theirs to shield ,teach and guide. Impressions from birth to 5 are deep. I resent

The bizarre rituals so unlike the PLAN, steel, bright lights,people in masks, drugs.........then you get maimed. And that's just the first day!

I always had the attitude that many of you cut guys have. The, "I'm circumcised, and I'm fine!" attitude. Now, I realize that I have been denied the very knowledge of what had been stolen from me,but now I know better. Here's a little test that you can do to see for yourself if this is bullshit or not.

How Much of Your Sexual Sensitivity Has Been Cut Away?

A circumcised man can assess how important his missing skin is by testing his remaining sexually sensitive tissue as follows:

In an aroused state, caress the skin downwards, starting from the end of the penis.

When your stroke crosses the scar line, note the stark difference in sensitivity. The amount of sensitive area you have remaining between the scar line and the glans is just a sample of what you had before your circumcision.
This sensitive region is normally much larger and folded inside the foreskin in the intact male, where it is moist and protected from constant stimulation. After circumcision, what remains of this region is exposed, dried out, and greatly desensitized.
http://www.fathermag.com/health/circ/sensitivity-test/

Try this out,then think about what you've just discovered, and then come back and comment on your thoughts.

Dear Bernice,

Thanks for your post at indymedia regarding Students for Genital Integrity (SGI). I am co-founder of SGI and director of the University of Iowa chapter. You are exactly right when you said: "This was not a medical procedure dictated by anyone else but me." As you say, you were a consenting individual. SGI has no issue with trans surgeries and we welcome research into better F to M or M to F techniques. I am a victim of an unwanted genital surgery. That is our issue. No one has the right to cut anyone else genitals without that person's fully informed consent.

I have spoken with trans students here at University, and I totally understand how the name of our group might be misconstrued. Again, we have no issue with consentual trans surgeries and would even welcome research into this area.

Best Regards,
Neil Peterson - Director
Students for Genital Integrity
University of Iowa

I never knew that circumcision was even an issue until I turned nineteen and my partner expressed that he did not want our son (if we ever had one) to be circumsized. Before this I had always assumed I would do so because of aesthetics, recently I have gone from fairly neutral upon the subject to very adamant against circumcision. I am a feminist as well as an advocate for sexuality. I realize now that MGM is as atrocious as FGM and what makes it worse is that here in our "civilized" America we are mutilating our children's genitals! Mr. Dervin opens our eyes to an issue that had remained clothed for far too long.

Dear Bernice, Thanks for your post at indymedia regarding Students for Genital Integrity (SGI). I am SGI co-founder and director of the University of Iowa chapter. You are exactly right when you said: "This was not a medical procedure dictated by anyone else but me." As you say, you were a consenting individual. SGI has no issue with trans surgeries and we welcome research into better F to M or M to F techniques. I am a victim of an unwanted genital surgery. That is our issue. No one has the right to cut anyone else's genitals without that person's fully informed consent. I have spoken with trans students here at University, and I totally understand how the name of our group might be misconstrued. Again, we have no issue with consentual trans surgeries and would even welcome research into this area. Best Regards, Neil Peterson - Director Students for Genital Integrity University of Iowa SGI at UIOWA Respect His Body

Most people know that male circumcision removes the foreskin of the penis. But what do you know about the foreskin itself?

Can you:

Name or describe any three functions of the foreskin?

Describe WHY the penile skin, including the foreskin, is MEANT to be longer than the internal structures it covers?

Describe how the mobility of the penile skin, including the foreskin, affects sexual intercourse for both the male and female?

Describe how having a vital portion of your own sex organs removed because of someone else’s choice, with you NOT having any say in the decision, would affect you emotionally.

If you have trouble answering any of these questions, may I suggest you begin your self-education by browsing the CIRP.ORG web site and its online library.

http://www.cirp.org/

There is one problem with banning circumcision. In the bible it says: Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers;) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man. John 7:22.
Now, people who follow the bible will do this. If banning circumcision becomes law, it will infringe on the religious beliefs of many. This country is founded on the freedom for certain things including practicing your own religion. Is it really that bad in America where soon we will be persecuting christians?

Congratulations to all involved in organizing SGI and providing the informative article posted on sf.indymedia.org.

Today’s students are tomorrow’s parents, teachers and policy makers. Best of luck in expanding your organization and providing awareness and education about all forms of genital mutilation imposed on hapless victims. The exuberance of your youth WILL make your enterprise successful.

cutting a child's genitals at birth... just think about it. how can it be right?

dumb people dont think and dont want to feel, they just follow. sheep.

This is in response to Berdo above... Though not a Christian man myself (born into a Jewish household), I do happen to keep a bible on hand for just these occasions. In fact, based on your quote above, I believe we're using the same version of the bible (King James).

Christianity does not insist on circumcision, in fact, if anything it is anti-circumcision. First let me refer to the quote you mentioned. Were you being intentionally dishonest? That passage is certainly not pro-circ. You took it entirely out of context, here is the rest of the passage:

Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers;) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.

If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day? John 7:22-23

Sounds a bit different when put into context doesn't it? But wait, there's more. Acts 15 focuses specifically on the topic of circumcision:

"But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. 6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they."

Verse 15:10 even points to the fact that circumcision has always been a point for contention within Judaism itself.

But Galatians 5 is where it really gets good:

1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

And it finishes in Galatians 5:12 with the most obvious anti-circumcision passage. This passage has been written in a few different ways, so I've included the most well known:

King James Version
12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.

Revised Standard Version
12 I wish those who unsettle you would mutilate themselves!

New International Version
12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

I find it a bit unsettling that so many Christians think that they've been circumcised because of their religion. No, they've been circumcised because they were born in America. Christians in other countries don't circumcise (except South Korea which started to do so in the late 1960s due to American influence). And Catholics? There has never in history been a circumcised pope. The rest of the Christian world knows that circumcision isn't a part of Christianity. Why are so many American Christians ignorant of that fact?

In Australia we can't believe that Americans in the USA are still circumcising most baby boys. It used to be done here, but it died out in the 1980s after the Australian College of Pediatrics said it was unnecesssary and harmful and should not be done. Just recently a wider group of Australian and New Zealand medical bodies reviewed the literature about medical "benefit" and harm and issued an even stronger statement against routine circumcison.

The Royal Australasian College of Physicians and six Australian and New Zealand medical organisations made a thorough review of the medical literature, including recent claims about the supposed protective effect of circumcision against STDs, AIDS, urinary tract infections and cervical cancer in female partners. It concluded that there was “no medical indication for routine male circumcision” and that there was “no evidence of benefit outweighing harm for circumcision as a routine procedure”. The RACP has sent a clear warning to doctors and parents that they should not do it. They also raise important issues of lack of consent and human rights.

The full statement is available at
http://www.racp.edu.au/hpu/paed/circumcision/index.htm

Britain started the fashion for male circumcision back in the Victorian era when medicine was pretty primitive, but they dropped it in the 1940s. Most countries never took it up at all.

When are you guys going to catch up with the rest of the civilized world?

I am so grateful reading about this movement. This age group are going to be the next generation of parents. It gives me hope.
Like many of the commentators, I used to think, no big deal, it's cleaner, etc. It's like a society where everybody has their eyes poked out at birth. If someone suggests there is a problem with this, that people should be allowed to see, most people would say, "What's the problem? I function just fine without those useless eyes. These people need to get a life". If I don't know what I'm missing, I don't see the problem with taking it away from other people. It is only when I begin learning about a whole world of sensation that I can never experience that I begin to feel the grief, the loss, the outrage. When I realise that the most erogenously sensitive tissue on my body was removed without my consent, for no legitimate health reason, it triggers a lot of pain. I think the fear of this pain may be the reason for the dismissive remarks. But only by aknowleging our pain can we prevent it from being inflicted on others. If you think, "no big deal", I recommend reading the materials at http://www.cirp.org/library. It has about the least polemical articles on this most passion-inspiring issue I've seen so far. And, yeah, if you're a cut guy, reading the truth is going to hurt. But it may prevent someone else from being hurt by your lack of knowlege.

Congratulations to those students who have the courage to stand in the face of the dominant paradigm, the status quo, and the current medical model to protect the genital integrity rights of infants and children.

With regard to the religious aspects of male genital cutting in the United States, it poses an interesting constitutional question. Do parents have a right to cut off a normal part of their child's body in the name of religion, marking that child as a Jew or Muslim, or does the child, born a US citizen with constitutional protection guaranteed, have a right to freedom of religious choice for himself? Clearly, in the United States, a child has the protection of the constitution. When will that right be honored?

Gary Harryman said it well, "Inhumanity in the name of anybody's God cannot be tolerated in a society that respects human rights."

When children are loved, respected, and protected from early traumatic experiences inflicted upon them by family or friends, we will live in a different society.
Thanks to the students who understand that violence to children always returns on the social level, and for their work to bring an end to that violence.

Sincerely,

Marilyn Fayre Milos, RN, Executive Director
National Organization of Circumcision Information Resource Centers (NOCIRC)

Congratulations to those students who have the courage to stand in the face of the dominant paradigm, the status quo, and the current medical model to protect the genital integrity rights of infants and children.

With regard to the religious aspects of male genital cutting in the United States, it poses an interesting constitutional question. Do parents have a right to cut off a normal part of their child's body in the name of religion, marking that child as a Jew or Muslim, or does the child, born a US citizen with constitutional protection guaranteed, have a right to freedom of religious choice for himself? Clearly, in the United States, a child has the protection of the constitution. When will that right be honored?

Gary Harryman said it well, "Inhumanity in the name of anybody's God cannot be tolerated in a society that respects human rights."

When children are loved, respected, and protected from early traumatic experiences inflicted upon them by family or friends, we will live in a different society.
Thanks to the students who understand that violence to children always returns on the social level, and for their work to bring an end to that violence.

Sincerely,

Marilyn Fayre Milos, RN, Executive Director
National Organization of Circumcision Information Resource Centers (NOCIRC)

Congratulations to those students who have the courage to stand in the face of the dominant paradigm, the status quo, and the current medical model to protect the genital integrity rights of infants and children.

With regard to the religious aspects of male genital cutting in the United States, it poses an interesting constitutional question. Do parents have a right to cut off a normal part of their child's body in the name of religion, marking that child as a Jew or Muslim, or does the child, born a US citizen with constitutional protection guaranteed, have a right to freedom of religious choice for himself? Clearly, in the United States, a child has the protection of the constitution. When will that right be honored?

Gary Harryman said it well, "Inhumanity in the name of anybody's God cannot be tolerated in a society that respects human rights."

When children are loved, respected, and protected from early traumatic experiences inflicted upon them by family or friends, we will live in a different society.
Thanks to the students who understand that violence to children always returns on the social level, and for their work to bring an end to that violence.

Sincerely,

Marilyn Fayre Milos, RN, Executive Director
National Organization of Circumcision Information Resource Centers (NOCIRC)

Congratulations to those students who have the courage to stand in the face of the dominant paradigm, the status quo, and the current medical model to protect the genital integrity rights of infants and children.

With regard to the religious aspects of male genital cutting in the United States, it poses an interesting constitutional question. Do parents have a right to cut off a normal part of their child's body in the name of religion, marking that child as a Jew or Muslim, or does the child, born a US citizen with constitutional protection guaranteed, have a right to freedom of religious choice for himself? Clearly, in the United States, a child has the protection of the constitution. When will that right be honored?

Gary Harryman said it well, "Inhumanity in the name of anybody's God cannot be tolerated in a society that respects human rights."

When children are loved, respected, and protected from early traumatic experiences inflicted upon them by family or friends, we will live in a different society.
Thanks to the students who understand that violence to children always returns on the social level, and for their work to bring an end to that violence.

Sincerely,

Marilyn Fayre Milos, RN, Executive Director
National Organization of Circumcision Information Resource Centers (NOCIRC)

Congratulations to those students who have the courage to stand in the face of the dominant paradigm, the status quo, and the current medical model to protect the genital integrity rights of infants and children.

With regard to the religious aspects of male genital cutting in the United States, it poses an interesting constitutional question. Do parents have a right to cut off a normal part of their child's body in the name of religion, marking that child as a Jew or Muslim, or does the child, born a US citizen with constitutional protection guaranteed, have a right to freedom of religious choice for himself? Clearly, in the United States, a child has the protection of the constitution. When will that right be honored?

Gary Harryman said it well, "Inhumanity in the name of anybody's God cannot be tolerated in a society that respects human rights."

When children are loved, respected, and protected from early traumatic experiences inflicted upon them by family or friends, we will live in a different society.
Thanks to the students who understand that violence to children always returns on the social level, and for their work to bring an end to that violence.

Sincerely,

Marilyn Fayre Milos, RN, Executive Director
National Organization of Circumcision Information Resource Centers (NOCIRC)

Hey Greg,
This article kicked ass. I liked the links you added to give support to the issues you raised (ie-male circumsion increases social problems, like rape). Great job,
lora

Great article, very informative!

I can't seem to find the Mp3 file. Can someone help me out with it?

Things aren't as good in Australia as they used to be--the rate has gone from 10% to 12% in past 3 years, largely due to Dr Terry Russell in Queensland. A number of us filed a complaint to the Medical Board of Queensland, which they sat on for almost a year before deciding to do nothing.

JWT in Metung, Victoria

is the 8th comment from the top

Sorry. This was my first time posting to indymedia, and I screwed up. The mp3 file was sent as a comment, 8 comments down from the top. Sorry for the confusion.

Wonderful to see students involved in protecting chillden! Everyone has the right to be intact, even Jewish infants. If only my parents could have understood this.

It's about time that men where protected from genital mutilation just as women currently are under the law.

Talk about a double standard!

If you're unhappy about being circumcised and it's affected your sex life as it has mine be sure to check out The National Oraganization of Restoring men at http://www.norm.org

If you're happy with the way your are now, that's ok too!

Once upon a time, a young med student had a brilliant insight. He needed practice to improve his surgery skills, and so wandered out into the woods one fine day.

He came upon a cave, and just as he suspected, there was a small bear cub in there, fast asleep.
"I can practice my circumcision technique here, no one will know, and I will really excel with the babies".

And so, our determined but obliviou$ young man tied down the bear cub. Then came the cutting, and the cub began screaming in agony. Little did our budding young physician know, however, that MAMA Bear was not far behind.

MAMA Bear came thundering into the cave, and with one quick swipe of her claws ripped out the young man's throat. Then MAMA Bear grabbed him with her teeth, slammed him against the wall and ripped out a piece of his side. The threat was over. MAMA Bear does not fuck around.

MAMA Bear is manifested and visible within the very organic structure of the human brain. MAMA Bear will do anything to protect her child. It is time for American Mothers to reclaim MAMA Bear. MAMA Bear does not care what anyone thinks about that. MAMA Bear does not fuck around.

I applaud Greg and the rest of the students that are speaking up for genital integrity. I look forward to watching SGI grow and become a major voice in educating our future parents.

On other note.

I have read several posts from people that believe it is ok to sexually alter a newborn child.

Educate yourself ........then email me.
I will enlighten you.

David Wilson
http://www.StopInfantCircumcision.org
http://www.SICSOCIETY.org
321-783-6383

Sarah Thompson had some interesting comments to make, but I believe she needs to think more deeply:

"The argument against circumcision stands on a very solid ethical foundation."

True.

"To speculate about violence and rape from circumcised peoples is to wedge a destabilizing block under that already rock solid foundation."

It is not speculation that circumcision is violence.

Nor is it speculation to observe the fact that violence breeds violence. It does.

"It is only to easy to throw around these unfounded premises"

Observed reality is not "unfounded premises".

"as we watch the middle easterners attack eachother and we ourselves are caught up in anti- muslim hysteria."

The violated violate. That is the nearly universal pattern. It is based on the very deep human motive of revenge. You see it in the middle east today. You saw it in New York, Pennsylvania, and Washington, D.C. on September 11, 2001. You saw it in the Balkans. You see it in human relationships every day. If you don't you are blind. If you look VERY carefully, you might find it in your own heart.

"Don't be so quick to forget the uncircumcised Nazis,"

who attacked the circumcised Jews, among others. Circumcision arouses unconscious and often conscious horror in genitally intact peoples, as it should. Perhaps the Germans overreacted?

"the uncircumcised spanish inquisition"

was also very hard on the circumcised Jews. Were they likewise living in horror, unconsciously and perhaps consciously to some extent, of a people who could mutilate the sex organs of their own young and attribute this heinous sex crime to God?

"and the horrors of the uncircumcised american frontier,"

No one that I know of has ever said that circumcision is the ONLY brutality or the ONLY evil or the ONLY SOURCE of brutality and evil in the world, but this one doesn't get a pass just because there are others.

"or on a smaller but current scale that gigantic pedophile rings in uncircumcised scandanavia."

We make human beings into brutes first by brutalizing them. There are three ADDITIONAL stages through which a person must pass to become a brutal, dangerous, violent human being. Brutalization is not sufficient by itself. (See WHY THEY KILL by Richard Rhodes).

Circumcising/genitally mutilating babies and children is certainly not the ONLY way to brutalize human beings to START them down the road to becoming brutal, dangerous, violent persons. It is just the most effective way ever invented to BEGIN the process. The process should never begin.

"There are plenty of other situations that could occur in a person's life by the time they become a raping murderous adult that would account for their lack of concience above and beyond being circumcised as in infant."

Yes, there are. Read Rhodes. Circumcision is neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition of creating a dangerous violent person. It is only the best way to BEGIN the process. The process, once begun, can be interrupted by any number of things. We have violent genitally mutilated people and we have violent genitally intact people. But this does NOT prove that genital mutilation does not contribute to brutalizing a person. It does. Virtually always. Just because there are millions of other very effective ways to brutalize people is no reason to excuse this very effective one.

"So let's not speculate on the future actions of the circumcised, but look at the current actions of the circumcisers."

Understanding where those current actions may AND SOMETIMES MAY NOT lead AND WHY helps us understand why it is so important to treat infants and children with gentleness, respect, and love, and not chop up their bodies unnecessarily. Love begets love. Violence begets violence. We reap what we sow. This is not speculation. It is the virtually universal experience of human kind:

"I and the public know
What all schoolchildren learn,
Those to whom evil is done
Do evil in return."

W.H. Auden

Hiding our heads in the sand about the connections between infant trauma and resulting developmental brain damage, and adult mental and emotional problems and violence doesn't help us solve our problems. I think your advice is bad.

"Circumcision itself is an act of sexual violence against children, "

Yes it is. Thank you for saying so. It is also an act of sexual violence against the men and women those children will become if they survive into adulthood.

"and the case against circumcision can rest soundly right there."

Yes it can. But the case WILL NOT rest there. The case will be complete, and the complete case must include the adults those children become. As an infant, childhood, and adult victim of circumcision I refuse to allow the case against it to include only the human rights violations suffered by the infants and children. Adults have equal rights - all adults were children once - and our rights have been violated, too. The case one day, like the penis, will be complete, not partial. The adults will not be cast aside as if we didn't matter, as if only children matter. All human beings matter. None will be excluded. Not even mere adult males.

First of all, I would like to applaud Greg's devotion to such an important cause. It's about time for us, as adults, to stop forcing this horrible procedure on those who cannot yet speak up for themselves.

Secondly, I find it very disturbing that there are people out there who don't think this is "a big deal". These are people who could be parents some day! And protecting a defenseless child from a completely unnecessary surgery is not important?! Sick. Some suggest "we people" take up a hobby? What...something important...like rollerblading? Perhaps with attitudes like that, these people should not consider the terribly unimportant "hobby" of parenthood.

People sometimes think that all the Bible says about circumcision is to command it. Not so! The New Testament is consistently hostile to circumcisers, and never tries to force circumcision on others.

For those who are interested, I suggest you read the following article:
<http://www.cirp.org/pages/cultural/glass1/>

As for the Old Testament (Hebrew Scriptures) there is a consistent pattern of sexual violence. Two obvious examples are the 100 foreskin dowry (1 Samuel 18: 25) and the story of the slaughter of the Shechemites (Genesis, Ch. 34).Also, the mass circumcision at Gilgal (Joshua 5: 2-9) was followed by the massacre of the people of Jericho (Joshua 6: 17)

It is therefore little wonder that the early Church rejected circumcision.

...we solemnly call upon:

* the Heads of State, the Governments and the Parliamentarians of the countries in which Female Genital Mutilation are traditionally practiced:
(...)
* the governments and the Parliamentarians of the immigration countries:
(...)
* local, national and international non-governmental organisations:
(...)
* Finally, we call upon all women and men of good-will all over the world to do everything they can to help to abolish the practice of Female Genital Mutilation, with the aim of ensuring that it disappears completely within fifteen years, so that, in the countries concerned, a new generation of women, equal to everyone else in rights and in dignity, will be born. The “Stop FGM” campaign is realized by AIDOS, Associazione Italiana Donne per lo Sviluppo, the Committee "No Peace Without Justice" and TAMWA, Tanzanian Women Association, in cooperation with AMSOPT/Mali, BAFROW/Gambia, Voix des Femmes (Burkina Faso) Egyptian Society for the Prevention of Harmful Traditional Practices (Egypt), Association for Integration and Development (Somaliland), EMWA (Ethiopia), AMWIK (Kenya) and the European Network for the Elimination of Harmful Practices.
Read more about the project

I found this article really interesting, especially regarding youth involvement with the issue of genital mutilaion. Also, I am wondering what the links are between the three SGIs. Given that they are in such different parts of the U.S., what was the impetus to start the SGI at each school?

Wow! I have to say that I never really gave my circumcision much thought. But wow, no, this all makes so much sense. The links were really helpful too. I did a search on circumcision after reading this article, and holy shit, there is sooo much info out there about just how fucked up circumcision is. Why don't we ever hear about any of this? There needs to be much more focus on this. Damn, this sucks.

SGI is to be commended for bringing this issue to the student population. The United States is the ONLY country in the world routinely circumcising male infants for non-religious reasons. As a physician, I know that when we finally stop this madness, we will look at each other and say "Why in the world did we do that?" Hopefully that will be soon.

Mark D. Reiss, M.D.
Vice President, Doctors Opposing Circumcision (DOC)

SGI is to be commended for bringing this issue to the student population. The United States is the ONLY country in the world routinely circumcising male infants for non-religious reasons. As a physician, I know that when we finally stop this madness, we will look at each other and say "Why in the world did we do that?" Hopefully that will be soon.

Mark D. Reiss, M.D.
Vice President, Doctors Opposing Circumcision (DOC)

The establishment of SGI chapters on college campuses will be a big contribution to the movement to cease circumcision of infants and children. By educating persons before their reproductive years, the perpetuation of circumcision to simply follow the tradition eperienced by the parents will be broken. Circumcision has never been evaluated by a medical agency requiring proof of benefit like all new drugs and treatments authorized for use today must be.
Public education will hopefully bring an end to this nonmedical practice like the demise of footbinding, lobotomies, and forcing left handed children to write only with their right hand.

This is a very good idea. For more than ten years an older generation or two have begun to talk about the issue of routine mutilation of infant males, which, as an issue, has been repressed in American society for the hundred years mutilation has been practiced. Now there is a younger generation involved. They are the ones who will decide to keep sons intact in the near future and that is very important. There is a very good chance we may have a much less violent society when the rate is finally below 10% nationwide and stays that low or lower for several years.

Bravo for bringing this issue to the forefront.

From books I've read, the surgery of circumcision is frequently botched.

I'm not sure what my penis would have looked like, but I have a large scar going all the way down the center of the underside, where presumably my frenulum is supposed to be. As I'm even more desensitized than most men by this (social control) surgery, I wonder if the doctor made a special effort to excise my sensory nerves.

The harm this has done me is too much to think about. The lack of support or understanding in society compounds the pain.

I want to know if I can sue, as an adult, for what that "doctor" did to me when he tore apart my body as a newborn.

> Looks like someone's still bitter about losing that 1/8" off the top. Give it up.

While I know this is probably from the lone harasser who shoots out nasty short posts to disrupt the flow of information amongst good people, I want to correct the record.

Circumcision as practiced in the United States typically removes up to 50% of the surface area of the penis, including the most sensitive regions. It effectively makes the glans (the bulb at the end, which is an internal organ) into an external organ, the amount of physical structure lost is so severe.

The amount crushed, cauterized or sliced off is a lot more than 1/8" even on the smallest human penises.

It's about time. If I'd known about such a group when I was a student, I'd have joined in a heart beat. My awakening of the issue of genital mutilation (by any other name) was only just developing when I was in college. Keep up the good work. Circumcisers should be behind bars.

Adults that do far less than circumcision to their infants are prosecuted for child abuse.

There is plenty of research on the effect of a brutal childhood. Why is there any question that circumcising an infant will have lasting effects (most of which may be unmeasurable, but real none the less)

Can there be any doubt that circ is violence?

Thank you for this organisation. We need younger people to be involved in this issue because you are the future. There is too much ignorance and hysteria out there and this student force will make a difference.

If I had one year-end wish, it would be that all non consensual genital mutilation / alteration would stop dead cold forever and all mutilations would reverse. That's a bit too magickal. We'll have to rely on the brilliant efforts of a few for now, and with that part of my wish has been answered already.

Individual students can not do more than very small contributions in such vast areas as world peace, human rights, ecology, etc. But, individual students can make measurable contributions towards the attainable goal of ending routine infant circumcision. I'd rather work on a project where I can see some results for my efforts.

Thanks for this timely and important article. It is good to know that finally more and more people are raising their voices against the absurd and outrageous practice of the routinized genital cutting of infant boys in this country. It is clearly unethical to amputate healthy genital tissue from unconsenting persons.

Youknow , language points to a lack.

Although circumcision is certainly a serious topic, take a break at the listed web site to see a truly wicked parody about a doctor who used to do circumcisions.

Puff the M. D. lived for the "C" ....

For those of you that don't believe that circumcision does any harm, I'm living proof that it does. I'm over 40 years old & have slowly been losing sensation over the years. I have begun foreskin restoration, & now after 3 months, I have a more sensitive penis than ever before. Restoration really works, I suggest that you look into it even if you aren't having any problems, we must educate ourselves & protect our children from what is obviously mutilation. The skin is there for a reason, they have discovered that the glans is a gland that needs to be kept moist at all times. We wouldn't think of drying out a females genitals just because of a little smell now would we? Think about it, how many mammals can you think of that has an exposed penis? None they are all covered & kept moist for a reason, it's called protection.. We must get the word out & STOP THE MUTILATION.. Keep up the good work & no stopping until it is outlawed..

It is a decision of parents to circumcise the boy. It doesn't matter why. The decision needs to stay with parents, you have shown no PHYSICAL ramifications to the baby or reasons why it is harmful to the baby. It doesn't hurt a thing, some people search to be victims. Let parents be parents.
If people think babies have a right over there own bodies then we should be able to agree that women need to stop killing there babies before they are born...
It's a baby...not a choice!

Dr. Von Dickhead - the name says it all. Who left the cage door open?

"circumcise therefore the foreskin of thy heart, and be no more siff-necked"
--the whacky Deuteronomy 10:16


It is also worth noting that the practice of male circumcision arose in sandy environments...

"stiff-necked"

I generally consider myself a pretty hardcore radical activist. I've been involved in so many different forms of radical politics by this point that I've lost track of it all. But, I've never heard this brought up before? Why do you think that is? The list of all the ways we are controlled is so long. Of course, our sexuality is one of them. How brilliant is it on their parts to convince the American population that they NEED to cut off part of their male children's penises FOR THEIR OWN GOOD! Thereby fucking up the sexual experience for everyone. Incomplete satisfaction makes for a better worker. It all makes sense. Bring the males into the world with violence, imprint the brain for violence, makes for better soldiers. We need to do more about this! This should be part of everything else we're working on.

What is this, a foreskin infomercial?? 'Curious newby' - ! Idiots.

Hi,

I somehow got to the site,

http://www.circlist.com/

And was astounded to find that, although it claims to be very complete ("Nowhere else will you find as comprehensive a source of information on circumcision"), it seemed to be a storehouse of pro-circumcision propaganda.

The site appears to be anonymous.

In one section I found a large number of quotes lauding circumcision, purportedly from individuals in the U.S. I was shocked to see words I had used in this discussion, which I had never seen before, repeated there as if from a pro-circumcision person. This makes me very suspicious that the site has been made up by a lone person.

Anyone have any information about this?

Anyone have a different take on the site? (I didn't check it completely).

http://www.circlist.com/

What do you mean words you'd used in this discussion? Commenting from this article? Where? Dude, I'd be more concerned it if had been made by a GROUP of people. It seems to be a website dedicated to circumcision fetishists. In order to get onto their email list you have to agree to this:

To be a member you must understand the * Rules of the Mailing List CIRCLIST * and not be a member of an anti-circumcision group and agree not share postings to the list or from the archives with anyone or otherwise seek to harm or disrupt CIRCLIST or its members.  Further, you must fully understand and agree with CIRCLIST Legal Notices.
---

Just in case that sounded suspicious, there's more:
* Rules of the Mailing List CIRCLIST *
---
1. The Circumcision Mailing List (List-serve) was installed so that people interested in this procedure and its contexts can share their news and views with each other.
    NOTE: This is not a forum to debate infant circumcision.  This is a PRO-circumcision group were circumcision is always supported.  Anti-circ activists or others who are opposed tocircumcision should not join this group and will be removed when discovered.

2. Articles on this List-serve can be fictional and non-fictional stories, reports, lists, documentaries, essays, pro-circ material etc. all involving circumcision.

3. All members must be adults (i.e. over 18 years of age).

4. Members are expected to send contributions regularly. A List-serve such as this lives by articles, stories and other member postings.  Your contributions to the discussion are required to stay on the List-serve..

5. Binary data (pictures) is most welcome. Pictures of actual circumcision procedures or devices, along with pictures of particularly well done circumcisions are welcomed.
-----
And this is posing to be a NEUTRAL circumcision information site? What the hell, are they just trying to make sure men keep getting circumcised so that they'll always have ample supply for their fetish? This is some sick shit! Is there really a market for this? That's pretty disgusting.

What do you mean words you'd used in this discussion? Commenting from this article? Where? Dude, I'd be more concerned it if had been made by a GROUP of people. It seems to be a website dedicated to circumcision fetishists. In order to get onto their email list you have to agree to this:

To be a member you must understand the * Rules of the Mailing List CIRCLIST * and not be a member of an anti-circumcision group and agree not share postings to the list or from the archives with anyone or otherwise seek to harm or disrupt CIRCLIST or its members.  Further, you must fully understand and agree with CIRCLIST Legal Notices.
---

Just in case that sounded suspicious, there's more:
* Rules of the Mailing List CIRCLIST *
---
1. The Circumcision Mailing List (List-serve) was installed so that people interested in this procedure and its contexts can share their news and views with each other.
    NOTE: This is not a forum to debate infant circumcision.  This is a PRO-circumcision group were circumcision is always supported.  Anti-circ activists or others who are opposed tocircumcision should not join this group and will be removed when discovered.

2. Articles on this List-serve can be fictional and non-fictional stories, reports, lists, documentaries, essays, pro-circ material etc. all involving circumcision.

3. All members must be adults (i.e. over 18 years of age).

4. Members are expected to send contributions regularly. A List-serve such as this lives by articles, stories and other member postings.  Your contributions to the discussion are required to stay on the List-serve..

5. Binary data (pictures) is most welcome. Pictures of actual circumcision procedures or devices, along with pictures of particularly well done circumcisions are welcomed.
-----
And this is posing to be a NEUTRAL circumcision information site? What the hell, are they just trying to make sure men keep getting circumcised so that they'll always have ample supply for their fetish? This is some sick shit! Is there really a market for this? That's pretty disgusting.

What do you mean words you'd used in this discussion? Commenting from this article? Where? Dude, I'd be more concerned it if had been made by a GROUP of people. It seems to be a website dedicated to circumcision fetishists. In order to get onto their email list you have to agree to this:

To be a member you must understand the * Rules of the Mailing List CIRCLIST * and not be a member of an anti-circumcision group and agree not share postings to the list or from the archives with anyone or otherwise seek to harm or disrupt CIRCLIST or its members.  Further, you must fully understand and agree with CIRCLIST Legal Notices.
---

Just in case that sounded suspicious, there's more:
* Rules of the Mailing List CIRCLIST *
---
1. The Circumcision Mailing List (List-serve) was installed so that people interested in this procedure and its contexts can share their news and views with each other.
    NOTE: This is not a forum to debate infant circumcision.  This is a PRO-circumcision group were circumcision is always supported.  Anti-circ activists or others who are opposed tocircumcision should not join this group and will be removed when discovered.

2. Articles on this List-serve can be fictional and non-fictional stories, reports, lists, documentaries, essays, pro-circ material etc. all involving circumcision.

3. All members must be adults (i.e. over 18 years of age).

4. Members are expected to send contributions regularly. A List-serve such as this lives by articles, stories and other member postings.  Your contributions to the discussion are required to stay on the List-serve..

5. Binary data (pictures) is most welcome. Pictures of actual circumcision procedures or devices, along with pictures of particularly well done circumcisions are welcomed.
-----
And this is posing to be a NEUTRAL circumcision information site? What the hell, are they just trying to make sure men keep getting circumcised so that they'll always have ample supply for their fetish? This is some sick shit! Is there really a market for this? That's pretty disgusting.

What do you mean words you'd used in this discussion? Commenting from this article? Where? Dude, I'd be more concerned it if had been made by a GROUP of people. It seems to be a website dedicated to circumcision fetishists. In order to get onto their email list you have to agree to this:

To be a member you must understand the * Rules of the Mailing List CIRCLIST * and not be a member of an anti-circumcision group and agree not share postings to the list or from the archives with anyone or otherwise seek to harm or disrupt CIRCLIST or its members.  Further, you must fully understand and agree with CIRCLIST Legal Notices.
---

Just in case that sounded suspicious, there's more:
* Rules of the Mailing List CIRCLIST *
---
1. The Circumcision Mailing List (List-serve) was installed so that people interested in this procedure and its contexts can share their news and views with each other.
    NOTE: This is not a forum to debate infant circumcision.  This is a PRO-circumcision group were circumcision is always supported.  Anti-circ activists or others who are opposed tocircumcision should not join this group and will be removed when discovered.

2. Articles on this List-serve can be fictional and non-fictional stories, reports, lists, documentaries, essays, pro-circ material etc. all involving circumcision.

3. All members must be adults (i.e. over 18 years of age).

4. Members are expected to send contributions regularly. A List-serve such as this lives by articles, stories and other member postings.  Your contributions to the discussion are required to stay on the List-serve..

5. Binary data (pictures) is most welcome. Pictures of actual circumcision procedures or devices, along with pictures of particularly well done circumcisions are welcomed.
-----
And this is posing to be a NEUTRAL circumcision information site? What the hell, are they just trying to make sure men keep getting circumcised so that they'll always have ample supply for their fetish? This is some sick shit! Is there really a market for this? That's pretty disgusting.

What do you mean "words you'd used in this discussion?" Commenting from this article? Where? Dude, I'd be more concerned it if had been made by a GROUP of people. It seems to be a website dedicated to circumcision fetishists. In order to get onto their email list you have to agree to this:

To be a member you must understand the * Rules of the Mailing List CIRCLIST * and not be a member of an anti-circumcision group and agree not share postings to the list or from the archives with anyone or otherwise seek to harm or disrupt CIRCLIST or its members.  Further, you must fully understand and agree with CIRCLIST Legal Notices.
---

Just in case that sounded suspicious, there's more:
* Rules of the Mailing List CIRCLIST *
---
1. The Circumcision Mailing List (List-serve) was installed so that people interested in this procedure and its contexts can share their news and views with each other.
    NOTE: This is not a forum to debate infant circumcision.  This is a PRO-circumcision group were circumcision is always supported.  Anti-circ activists or others who are opposed tocircumcision should not join this group and will be removed when discovered.

2. Articles on this List-serve can be fictional and non-fictional stories, reports, lists, documentaries, essays, pro-circ material etc. all involving circumcision.

3. All members must be adults (i.e. over 18 years of age).

4. Members are expected to send contributions regularly. A List-serve such as this lives by articles, stories and other member postings.  Your contributions to the discussion are required to stay on the List-serve..

5. Binary data (pictures) is most welcome. Pictures of actual circumcision procedures or devices, along with pictures of particularly well done circumcisions are welcomed.
-----
And this is posing to be a NEUTRAL circumcision information site? What the hell, are they just trying to make sure men keep getting circumcised so that they'll always have ample supply for their fetish? This is some sick shit! Is there really a market for this? That's pretty disgusting.

OK then, looks like any kids (sons) I have are going to be left alone. thanks for the info.

I think this a rather important issue that needs to be addressed and I am glad that there is a movement out there that is causing change. In addition, I feel that the people involved, students, are the best at getting and rallying together support for a cause. That is terrific.

I am a 28 year old Catholic man. I was circumcised when I was three for medical reasons. I do not remember it, I had no pain, and I have a perfectly functioning penis today. In fact I would rather not have a foreskin - I am perfectly happy with a clean dry penis. I don't know what all your fuss is about.

Just an insight.

If you cannot remember, how can you say it wasn't painful? Have you ever seen a circumcision? Even most doctors who perform circumcision would never make the claim that it isn't painful.
Check these out:

Circumcision study halted due to trauma
http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/9712/23/circumcision.anesthetic/

Infants Feel and Remember Circumcision Pain - Study
http://www.pslgroup.com/dg/1f21e.htm

and

Pain of circumcision and pain control
http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/

I support Greg Dervin on this. Circumcision is a form of assualt with actual bodily harm involved. To do that to an infant is not an adult way to behave.
I am writing from England, where male circumcision is much less common than in the USA, and female circumcision is illegal of course. I think the figure for male circumcision in England is about 7%, but I could be wrong.
If people want to be circumcised, they should have the right, on their 18th birthday, to make an alteration to their bodies. Of course they should. It's like having a tattoo. A friend of mine had a big eagle tattooed on his chest. Fine, it was his choice, and he was an adult.
I would also like to point out to Greg Dervin that it is medically possible to restore the foreskin, with a procedure involving stretching the skin back over the glans (head of the male organ). It takes time but it can be done.
Best wishes to you from England
Bill Robinson

Go to this site for dozens of links on the damaging effects of MGM & FGM

How come no anti-arab-country threads r here?

Just a curious, general question: How come every anti-israel accusation article in the world makes it to the commentary section and is never deleted no matter how absurd it is, but valid articles about the bad things arab countries do, bad arab leaders, or arab terrorist organizations who INTENTIONALLY murder innocent people are always deleted or made hidden?

I am against abortion as well. But, when it comes to circumcision, I think it is important to understand that male circumcision and female genital mutilation are two different things. I'm not saying I support male circumcision, but it is done in a completely differet aspect than for females. FGM is most common in third world countries, etc. Females are cut at different ages depending on the culture. They have parts of their genitals cut off with pieces of glass by their mothers or other women or men, not doctors. Baby boys in America are circumcised in sterile hospitals by surgeons. There are two sides to the male issue. There have been studies proving that there are advantages to circumcision (less chance of a breeding ground for STD's and UTIs.) And there are studies proving that there is no medical need for male circumcision. However, there is ABSOLUTELY NO reason for female genital mutilation, circumcision, or whatever you want to call it. Peolpe are not educated on female genital mutilation...and they should be aware of the harm it causes, physical and emotional.

Both MGM and FGM damage healthy genital tissue and don't have any place in modern medicine. Many countries that practice FGM use the same excuses given for MGM (stopping masturbation, hygiene, UTIs, STDs) etc. These don't justify cosmetic surgery on a baby without their consent at birth. Let men decide themselves if they want to keep their entire penis.

Please watch this video and you'll see what I mean:

http://www.intact.ca/video.html

Simply one of the most inane topics and "movements" ever put forth in the already ridiculous realm of indymedia.

Christ this is rich entertainment.

it is why Indy gets most of its internet hits - they are generally laughable comments. I almost peed laughing when I read some of these!

it is why Indy gets most of its internet hits - they are generally laughable comments. I almost peed laughing when I read some of these!

Odd even the AAP in the non " third world country " of the USA says they do not recomend circ any longer. Science has proven there is NO reason for male genital mutilation, male genital alteration or circ no matter what you call it(the dictionary calls it mutilation and I always enjoyed the dictionary from Webster)

Even abortion has reasons for MEDICAL HEALTH reasons only as I have seen in my fathers medical books when the babies suffers for weeks or hours just to die suffering(oh yea babies feel "no pain" huh right. I have seen pictures of malformed humans that woud make most people vomit and deprest.
Thank you
Dana Sion

First of all, I want to address the "laughable" comments. You go ahead and laugh on. I can hear the nervousness through my computer screen. But go ahead and laugh. As if it were enough to normalize the practice of infant genital mutilation. As if that were enough to silence and comfort the screams and shrieks of a baby as someone like you stabs at his genitals. Laugh. But your bothering to post your fake laughs betrays your apathy. Savage butcher.

"I am against abortion as well. But, when it comes to circumcision, I think it is important to understand that male circumcision and female genital mutilation are two different things. I'm not saying I support male circumcision, but it is done in a completely differet aspect than for females. FGM is most common in third world countries, etc. Females are cut at different ages depending on the culture. They have parts of their genitals cut off with pieces of glass by their mothers or other women or men, not doctors. Baby boys in America are circumcised in sterile hospitals by surgeons. There are two sides to the male issue. There have been studies proving that there are advantages to circumcision (less chance of a breeding ground for STD's and UTIs.) And there are studies proving that there is no medical need for male circumcision. However, there is ABSOLUTELY NO reason for female genital mutilation, circumcision, or whatever you want to call it. Peolpe are not educated on female genital mutilation...and they should be aware of the harm it causes, physical and emotional."

Dare you call yourself a student? You need to do far more studying and reading than merely parroting excuses and rationale you hear everywhere. SHOULD male circumcision continue in America "because FGM is worse?" I ask you this: Have you seen a male circumcision? And have you seen a female circumcision? You and every bleeding heart femenist out there that supports male circumcision but opposes FGM chastise opponents of circumcision for comparing male circumcision with female circumcision. Are you and all of them able to substantiate your claims by making this comparison yourselves?

"FGM is most common in third world countries, etc. Females are cut at different ages depending on the culture. They have parts of their genitals cut off with pieces of glass by their mothers or other women or men, not doctors." Yeah. And males aren't? Yes, I know women are circumcised, clitorectomized and/or infibulated in other countries. They are held down and mutilated against their will. This is done to them at an age of consciousness, so they will remember the pain and agony of this advent for the rest of their lives. But just as tragic is the fact that there are cultures in other countries where boys and men must likewise endure same thing. Did you know that there are initiation rites in some parts of Africa where they practice male genital mutilation? Did you know that just as in female genital mutilation, there are African tribes where boys and men are mutilated with dirty utensils, such as old, rusty cooking knives, razor blades and glass shards? In Australia, aboriginal tribes split the penis down the middle like to reveal the urethra at about age 13. It makes it look similar to a boiled frankfurter. In some Moslem countries, including Turkey, boys are held down at varying ages to be circumcised at an age of consciousness. Here too, these boys will remember what has happened to them all their lives. Is circumcision wrong HERE then? Are these males extended the same sympathy that is given to women in Africa?  Or is circumcision sanctioned just as long as it is done to males in the name of culture or religion no matter where and how it occurs?

"Baby boys in America are circumcised in sterile hospitals by surgeons." So then what you're saying, is you would be more supportive of FGM would that it was done in the sterile, professional environment of a hospital? Then FGM would be OK?

"There are two sides to the male issue. There have been studies proving that there are advantages to circumcision (less chance of a breeding ground for STD's and UTIs.) And there are studies proving that there is no medical need for male circumcision. However, there is ABSOLUTELY NO reason for female genital mutilation, circumcision, or whatever you want to call it." As with the female issue, there can be only one side to the male issue. If you dare argue the pros and cons of male circumcision, you must be willing to argue the pros and cons of female circumcision. You obviously aren't aware of the similar rationale used in Africa to propagate female circumcision. You haven't heard of the women that insist on mutilating that it's "cleaner." It protects against "AIDS." It makes her more sexually, appealling, etc. If you look into it, you will realize that all those "claims" made on behalf of circumcising are propagated by circumcised males themselves. Men of profession are in denial and wish to preserve the figurative forest in which they hide in. STDs or UTIs aren't prevented in EITHER sex. Circumcised men STILL get STDs and UTIs. By the way, women get more UTIs than men do, but the notion to circumcise them would be preposterous. I'm sorry but just as in Female Mutilation, there is ABSOLUTELY NO reason to circumcise men, other than cultural rite, which is not medical. What is a cultural rite of no medical relevance whatsoever doing lodged in America's medical system???

It's funny how prevention of STDs are pushed as a rationale to circumcise INFANTS of all people. As if they had the ability to get out of their cribs and sleep around!!! How many babies do you know of that have sex? You want protection? Stop sleeping around! Wear a friggin condom! Watch who you sleep with! Don't cut your children's genitals! Circumcision didn't do anything to halt the incredible AIDS epidemic here in America, but certain scientists, presumably circumcised themselves, hope it might help out in Africa. THAT'S a little weird... Funny how back in the 70s and 80s when circumcision peaked at 90%, didn't help stop the AIDS epidemic that ensued thereafter. This will somehow be different in Africa. (so some scientists hope)

"Peolpe are not educated on female genital mutilation...and they should be aware of the harm it causes, physical and emotional." Oh I beg to differ. I thing pretty much everyone in the US knows about FGM. It's male circumcision, no MALE GENITAL MUTILATION, that people don't want to hear about. What. When a doctor uses an instrument to separate the foreskin from the glans, and cutting it off a bleeding, shrieking child, he is not causing the child any physical or emotional harm? What is he causing the child then? It must be pleasure I suppose. Presumably the baby is not being harmed because the doctor is using a clamp to protect his glans. The fact that 50% of the skin on his penis is being severed with no anesthesia whatsoever is of no relevance. You just keep telling yourself that. My theory is that any pain killer that MAY be used serves to anesthecise the psyches of those doing the circumcision, and/or those not squeamish enough to watch. Tie an intact man down, spread his legs, take his foreskin and cut it off all while he's begging his circumciser not to. Then tell me if it's causing him any emotional and physical harm. Presumably babies aren't harmed because of the age difference? Somehow such acts are justified on a child because he "wont remember?" If I used a date rape drug to have my way with a woman, will "she can't remember" ever hold up in court?

"I am against abortion as well. But, when it comes to circumcision, I think it is important to understand that male circumcision and female genital mutilation are two different things. I'm not saying I support male circumcision, but it is done in a completely differet aspect than for females."

THAT's a double standard... how can you fight for a child's right to live, but could care less about what happens to his body? -I- think it is important to underastand that male mutilation and female mutilation are the exact same thing. The only reason people want male circumcision to be "different" is so that they could rationalize it in some way. The aspect is the same it has always been. Female circumcision is done to minimize a woman's genitals so that her sexual experience is hampered? Oh but male circumcision is "different" because "it's cleaner" now? Is it? Do you need a history recap? Go ahead. Read the history of circumcision. Tell me that Mr. Kellogg's cornflakes didn't promote circumcision in males to stop them from masturbating. Tell me that he didn't recommend you put carbolic acid on the female clitoris to keep her from playing with herself.

Another comparison that is laughed at is the comparison to foot binding. "How dare you!" Women say. Well, I dare. Foot binding was done in China as a sort of partialism; it drove men mad with lust to see a bound foot. Here in America, an excuse I hear often to promote circumcision is because "it's prettier." How is not that comparable? How is circumcising a child because someone else wants him to look "sexually appealing" different than binding the foot for the same reason??? You people that cut children to conform them to your standard of sexual attrativeness make me SICK!!! And then you try and turn around and call opponents of circumcision foreskin fetishists. What a pathetic defence mechanism!

Male circumcision and female circumcision are a lot more similar than people realize. It's easy to point out mistakes in other cultures, but harder to look within our society and say "this is not right," because everyone sees it as normal. The only reason people want it to be different is because circumcising America doesn't want to believe they mutilate their children. Open up your eyes america, and realize what goes on in your hospitals every day. Open up your eyes to see your children straped and spread on a cutting board. Open up your ears to hear him screaming for the pain to stop. Fathers and mothers, used your parental instincts to protect your child, and not allow others to bring him harm. I don't know what my reaction would be if my wife had just finished having our son, and have a knife-happy doctor ask me if I'd allow him to mutilate my son. I'd seriously question whether he was at the right hospital.

PEACE TO ALL. Let baby boys sleep in peace...

It's always funny to hear responses to the effect that "It's not that big of an issue." Or "get over it." Or "it is YOU that have psychological problems." The defensiveness of such responses betrays the poster's apathy. Really. If circumcision weren't "such a big deal," then why does it matter that people are fighting to end it? If it "doesn't make a differenc either way," what's with the rude put downs? If you have the audacity to put down comments in the defence of circumcision, then you obviously have a problem, and it is after all, an important issue to you. If circumcision isn't that "big of an issue," then it shouldn't be "that big of an issue" if people stopped doing it. After all, it doesn't really matter. Does it?

"Piece-by-piece response:
"Doctors Opposing Circumcision (DOC) applauds the formation of Students for Genital Integrity (SGI). "

"Well, finally, an UNBIASED endorsment!!! Oh, wait. Hey, I'll bet the "Society for Circumcision Is the Unholiest Cruelty in the Known Universe" is also an endorser. Heckuva a movement ya have here...but not the type of "movement" you'd like to believe."

HAH! Sounds like more of a movement YOU don't want to believe. Like most of the rest of America, you'd like to believe that there is nothing wrong with what you do. Your penis is normal. It's men that haven't had their standard equipment meddled with that are wrong. You can either stick your ostrich head in the sand and keep telling yourself that, or see male genital mutilation for what it is.

"The students of today are the parents of tomorrow, so they will need to know of the harmful effects of circumcision, so they can insist on genital integrity for their children. "

"Genital integrity? What, is my penis going to succumb to structural fatigue and break up from excessive G-force?"

No, it has ALREADY succumed to structural fatigue, and has already been deforemed due to excessive circumcisers.

"About 75-80% of American men who are college students today suffered circumcision as an infant. "

"Suffered"? Didn't bother me one bit."

You know, circumcised women in Africa say the same thing. Maybe you don't remember, and I'll give you that. So this makes it OK to do it? I'm pretty sure if they cut off the whole thing at your age, you wouldn't remember that either. Would that have been OK with you? You wouldn't have remembered... Is "he won't remember" a reason, or an excuse to mutilate a child? Just what is the list of things you can do to children because "they won't remember later on?"


"Those men (although they may not be aware of it) have a sexual handicap due to the loss of their foreskin and its various erogenous and mechanical sexual functions. "

"Um...no. This is an outright lie. You people, "although you may not be aware of it", are suffering from a latent phychological condition similar to penis envy. Disagree if you want, but it's true; you're just "not aware of it". Hey, look mom! I can be intellectually dishonest, too!"

Um, yes, it's the truth. You are talking out your ass, because the fact is, you do NOT know what you're missing. Come on. Tell me you know what it feels like to have a foreskin. If you did then maybe you would know what the hell you're talking about. Could it be you're projecting? Could it be YOU are the one suffering penis envy? Disagree if you want, but it's the truth. You're just jealous cuz intact men have something you don't. Since you don't have a foreskin, no man should, and this bothers you.

"These men may partially regain their loss by undertaking foreskin restoration if they choose to do so. "

"You couldn't PAY me to. It's less sanitary and it's pointless. Seriously, the stink you people are putting up about this seems more of a type of jealousy to me. Look...if it bothers you so much, get circumsized yourself. To the rest of the world, you look like a bunch of whiners who feel insecure because all the men in the pornos you watch are circumsized, or you got teased in the locker room as a child one too many times. You're trying to mask your insecurities and revenge for unpleasant memories behind the guise of a pseudo-medical movement. It's pathetic and hypocritical. Get over it."

I think, again, you project. I don't think intact men are jealous of cut men. Rather, they feel sorry for them, as cut men will never know what it is like to have all of their penis. I believe it bothers you that intact men could go get circumcised if they want, but circumcised men can't readily restore their foreskin. There are some men that can't, as they were shorn of all of their foreskin. I believe it is YOU that would feel insecure in a lockerroom full of men that have all of their penis. This bothers you, and so you would that all men be circumcised. To make YOU feel better. Sorry to burst your bubble, but it is only American porn that has circumcised penises. The rest of the world is intact. Actually, intact men are making an appearance in American porn, so your theory slowly becomes myth.

You project my friend. I believe it is you that are "trying to mask your insecurities and revenge for unpleasant memories behind the guise of a pseudo-medical movement." It's pathetic and hypocritical and it is YOU, that should get over it. It is unpleasant, and it makes you feel insecure to think that you were mutilated in the state of infancy and vulnerability, by someone much bigger than you at the time. Worst of all, you don't want to think you're a monster for agreeing to do it to your children, or other boys. Seriously. If you're "OK" and "don't care" or have any "feelings of jealousy and suffering," why the bitterness in your posts? Why do you care that circumcision continues? I've nothing else to conclude, but that it's to keep things normal for yourself. I'm sorry, but the circumcised penis is not normal. It's missing parts it would NORMALLY have.

"Quit trying to make up issues where they do not exist. The "statistics" in this argument provide no evidence of cause-and-effect. Making up ridiculous arguments from unrelated statistics and facts is easy. Watch: "The crime rate in the US is higher than in Europe. Europe is north of Africa. Therefore, crime is obviously directly related to proximity with Africa". Talk about minor-league debating tactics, but when your cause is as petty, illogical, and frivolous as this one, hey, what can ya do?"

No, you quit trying to pretend the issue doesn't exist. Your snappy touche post is evidence that you recognize it does. You don't need a statistic to prove the obvious. Circumcision is violence an a non-concenting individual. Perhaps you might be right in that circumcision and future violence do not correlate, but you can't hide male genital mutilation for what it is. That is, unless you want this practice to continue. We stray from the issue when we talk about debating tactics. By focusing on those, you evade having to address the practice in question. Disgruntled circumcised males, such as yourself, would rather circumcision be a "petty and frivolous" issue, as it is as raw and sensitive to touch as a freshly circumcised infant's penis. Would it be truly "petty and frivolous," you would not bother to rush to circumcision's defence. It wouldn't bother you that people stop this practice. Answer this question. What if doctors in America finally deemed circumcision as a useless procedure? Would you be as ademant as we are? Or would it really be a "non-issue" to you, and "get over it" and "move on?" If you can truly answer this question, saving yourself "the rediculousness" of it, I may be willing to take you more seriously. QUIT EVADING AND ANSWER THE GODDAMN FUCKING QUESTIONS PRESENTED TO YOU.

"And in closing, comparing male circumcision with the female variety is asinine, through and through. The physical trauma of the former is negligible...having a tooth pulled is easily more traumatic...while the latter is severe and has no benefits, potential or otherwise."

Really now. Have you seen a male and female circumcision yourself to come up with such a presumptious conclusion? Can you substantiate your claim by being able to make this comparison yourself?

I must say, aren't we comparing apples with oranges when you compare the pulling of the tooth of a concious person with the circumcision of a newborn? If newborns had teeth, maybe that would be as traumatic as circumcision at that age; as with circumcision, they probably wouldn't remember. Perhaps pulling a healthy tooth from someone would be traumatic, as like you say, there are no benefits, potential or otherwise. I'd doubt circumcising a man at a tooth-bearing age would be any less traumatic.

You also assume that circumcision has benefits potential or otherwise. I'm sorry, but you're wrong. Circumcising a child prevents absolutely nothing. Cutting a part off doesn't make it any cleaner. How would YOU know an intact penis is hard to clean? You can tell me out of experience, I'm sure. It also doesn't prevent any diseases. Circumcised babies get UTIs, and circumcised men still get AIDS. I don't need to bring a statistic in, because it's a known fact that there is an AIDS epidemic in circumcised America. The cancer of the penis myth has been dispelled by the American Cancer Society: circumcised men get penis cancer. All the excuses used to promote circumcision are outdated and have all been debunked. Where have you been?

What other excuse are you going to pull? To save the rainforest? To stop the terrorists? Other than societal "norms" and to make people like you happy, there is no reason to mutilate a child's genitals. A doctor's job is to HELP a patient, not hurt him. He has an obligation to refuse parents' wishes to circumcise their children. Parents have an obligation to keep their children from being experimented on by outdated victorian quacks.

Don't like that neo-natal circumcision is being exposed for what it is; infant genital mutilation? Maybe you should get over it. If you didn't really care, you wouldn't have bothered to post. You obviously have an axe to grind. We don't have to justify ourselves. Males are normally born with a foreskin. Circumcision removes perfectly healthy tissue off a non-concenting individual, and the burden of defence lies in the circumcisers. I think the reason this bothers you so much is because you don't want to have to defend the practice, and deep down, you know there is no valid reason to keep doing this.

The "cleaner" issue is quite stupid, because, what else do you have to cut off to keep it clean? It's painfully silly logic. Cut off a finger, you no longer have to clean it. DUH... I am intact, and I can tell you that clipping and cleaning my nails is 100 times as tedious. You gotta buy clippers, clean under them, cut just right so that you don't make yourself bleed... In contrast, all I gotta do down there is pull back the skin in the shower. BOOM. I'm done. Using the cleaner logic, it would be advantageous to yank and burn off childrens' nail follicles to keep them from growing. "It's cleaner." BULLSHIT.

"How many legs does a dog have, if you called its tail a leg? 4. Because calling a dog's tail a leg, doesn't make it one."

Calling circumcision "harmless" doesn't make it so. It only serves to numb the feelings of the circumcisers, the circumcisees, and the parents of said males.

Contrary to circumcisers' words, the foreskin is useful. It serves to protect the mucous membrane normally found in the glans. Without the foreskin, the glans dries out, conforming a man, and his partner to a bottle of KY jelly. In an infant, the foreskin is adhered to the glans, like a nail to a finger. The exposed raw glans would be exposed to urine and feces. Talk about cleanliness eh? The foreskin makes masturbation easier and pleasurable. You can deny it all you want, but circumcision's original purpose in America was not to "clean" the penis, but rather make sex and masturbation unenjoyable. Call me a heretic all you want. It is history my friend... The foreskin protects the sensitive head of the penis from the dry air and abrasive texture of clothing. Without it, the penis head toughens, numbing the sensitivity. Circumcised men say they're just fine, but the reason we say "they don't know they are not," is because they are using a dry, numbed penis and the thin sensitivity as a benchmark. How can they know what is truly normal, if they've had a circumcised penis all their lives? Kind of like a color-blind man using his perseption to say that what he sees is "normal" and can see just fine. What else do you feel for such a man that says purple and green are the same, but pity?

There are some things that circumcised men say that may be true. Perhaps it is true, that they don't remember it. Perhaps it is true, that they have made it this far in life without a complaint. And perhaps it is true that they wouldn't want it any other way. This is, I suppose, fine. But is it any real reason to keep doing this to children? Maybe a man grew up with a peg leg. A prosthetic arm. Maybe he's just fine the way he is. Is it any reason to amputate an arm or a leg off a child? If a father lost his nose in an accident, and "he's just fine," would it be OK to break a newborn's nose "to look like dad?"

"You're trying to
mask your insecurities and revenge for unpleasant memories behind the guise
of a pseudo-medical movement."

What's pseudo-medical is neonatal circumcision. It is nothing but a cosmetic cultural rite that has nothing to do with medicine whatsoever. It's the promoters of circumcision for so-called preventative surgery that are a pseudo-medical movement. What does neonatal circumcision cure? Is the foreskin some sort of disease all males are born with?

I got this at med-fraud.org
Intact males have no need to justify their wholeness. Opponents of circumcision have no axe to grind. They have no reputations or careers to protect. They do not reap huge profits by engaging in unethical practices. Those who promote ethical and legal practices have no need to be accountable for their words and actions. Their aim is to protect the rights and interests of those who are unable to defend themselves. They are to be commended and supported for their actions - and should not be subjects of ridicule which appears to be the norm today. It is those who advocate or perform circumcisions who need to justify their perverted activities.

A lot of supposedly appathetic individuals make it a point to ridicule people opposing circumcision. They do so without even addressing any of the questions to them. As if they were above it all. I think the reason they so craftily and cleverly do this is to evade having to question the procedure themselves. Other than getting defensive and personal, they probably have little else to say. Perhaps they have issues they need to come to terms with and "get over?"

I know I've posted quite enough, but this will be the last, I promise. Good riddance, I know.

But this caught my eye.

"don't knock it til you try it, buddy.
by You'll never go back Monday, Dec. 09, 2002 at 4:49 PM

What is this, a foreskin infomercial?? 'Curious newby' - ! Idiots."

Is this a circumcision ad, by the same token? This one's quite funny, but sad at the same time. An intact man can "try" being cut by merely pulling his foreskin back and keeping it there for a few minutes. After a while, he'll find he wants the hood back down. But can a cut man "try" being intact? It's ironic you tell us "don't knock it till you try it, buddy," but I can't say the same to you now, can I? Well, I can... "don't knock being intact till you try it," but how many of you can't? How many cut men were cut so tightly the shaft has no more movable skin to stretch? I know of at least one case where a man was cut so tightly the skin beneath the head of his penis broke when it began to grow at puberty. Of course, some lucky men that wish to, are able to restore a pseudo foreskin. Won't be exactly the same as a real foreskin, but it's close... So I say the same to you "buddy," don't know it till you try it. But then, you might not be able to. *woops!* My bad...

In closing...

Quite frankly I’m tired of being ridiculed because of the stand I take. Advocates of circumcision minimize the practice to a “non-issue”, and we who can see it for the perverted mutilation that it is are told to “get a life.” I’m tired of being made to feel futile for voicing my opinion and trying to end this deplorable practice. Proponents of circumcision are unable to show how the amputation of healthy tissue from non-consenting individuals is ethical. When questioned, they respond with hostility, name-calling and circumventions, and when they get tired of blowing hot air they fall silent. They don’t respond to e-mails. They don’t pick up the phone. They fail to respond in any manner. If they have logical reasons which can be defended ethically and legally, let’s have them. Quit the pathetic victim act and cut the ridicule!

Let’s have the facts! Why isn’t the foreskin valuable? Why do hundreds of millions of males around the world value and protect their foreskin? Why are tens of thousands of males restoring remnants of their foreskin? Though these men wish to regain a feeling of wholeness and restore penile sensitivity, whatever foreskin they CAN restore is only a rendition of what having the foreskin they were born with “could be” like. Why are ethical doctors and professional people around the world condemning this practice and seeking to end it? Why does no medical organization around the world recommend it? Aren’t doctors obliged to practice under a medical code of ethics? If not, why not? Since when has the amputation of body parts of non consenting individuals ever been a mandate of medicine, and where under any criminal code is such a practice sanctioned? Does the fact that any practice has continued for decades justify its continuance? Do parents really have the right to demand the amputation of body parts off their children, and is such REALLY a “parental choice?” If a baby boy "won't remember," then could parents demand baby girls be mutilated at this age then? When do the rights of the parents end, and the rights of the child begin? Ridiculous criticism is abundant, but these questions remain but unanswered.

Our opponents may call us obsessed because we're concerned with the welfare of children, but what do you call those who are obsessed with cutting part of children's genitals off? Are circumcisers not indulging in another kind of obsession? An obsession which is pedophilic and sadistic to say the least? Anti-circumcisers want to protect all children from abuse and harmful practices. Even the United Nations states that children need to be protected from harmful religious practices. Pro-circumcisers worry that the child will be sexually appealing. "It's prettier. Girls like it better," they say. Medical ethics and the value of the amputated part of the individual’s body seem to be of little concern to them. Are these really the type of individuals you want giving you advice with regards to your children?

It's people like these who need to “get a life.” A principle that was instilled in me from the days of kindergarten is that YOU KEEP YOUR HANDS TO YOURSELF. It’s circumcisionists who need to get a life and stop lobbying for the mutilation of children. Until the day comes where circumcision is viewed for the mutilation and sadistic child sexual abuse it is, no, I will not “get a life." Fighting to let baby boys sleep in peace, undisturbed by a sick freak who wants to chop part of their penises off, will have been a life worth living, thank you.

I applaud your organization and your voice to this effort. Your facts are right on and I wish you well in your efforts!

What is the deal? And who says they CAN'T remember it? Ever hear of "regressive therapy" or other similar techniques? I did remember it. It was the ONLY time in my whole life that I actually felt TERROR, for real. And words fail utterly in describing how painful it was. It is beyond pain as we know it. Imagine being completely skinned alive and having no doubts that death will beckon you in the most cruel manner possible. That would be close to it. Do you really believe that it is something that a newborn should experience? People have often told me to "get a life" and leave it alone. Well, I lost my life forever on that day and will NOT find rest until ALL babies and children are safe from this barbaric and cowardly act. In my opinion, the crime of circumcising an infant or child without a medically sound reason, after ALL non surgical methods have been tried and failed, should be sentence of being "drawn and quartered"(yes, I do know what that really is) I DO REMEMBER

[There is one problem with banning circumcision. In the bible it says: Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision.......]

Nice try.
Now read Acts 15 and Galations 5.... "Circumcision availeth nothing" Certain passages mention that salvation is lost to those who circumcise, but wait... it gets better....Those who circumcise their children will forever be barred from salvation. Kinda harsh, huh?

Also, there are numerous passages that forbid outright cruelty and harm to children. Circumcision IS harmful without any doubts. This harm is documented in medical journals that doctors routinely read (and ignore). And when done without direct consent, it is cruelty.

And then, exactly WHO has the right to enforce religious beliefs upon another? No one. Do parents have this right toward their children? NO


Anyone who HAS a belief that being circumcised is a requirement CAN have it done to themselves. The so-called "anti circ" people have no problem with this, nor do I. Those who do not have that belief, even if their parents do, should not be forced to endure that consequences of that belief. So, outlawing circumcision of unwilling victims violates NO ONES rights.

And while on the cruelty issue...
Absolutely no animals are circumcised for health reasons. It is recognized as "animal cruelty" severe enough to land you behind bars. Think about it.