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Fresh Aradia Photos
The Aradia tree-sit has been ongoing since December of 2001, just up the ridge from where David "Gypsy" Chain was killed, on September 17th, 1998.
The Aradia tree-sit has been going on, off and on, since September of 1998. In fact, David "Gypsy" Chain was helping to bottomline ground support for Aradia in the week before he was killed. Also, a PL worker came up to Aradia and communicated with the tree-sitters just after Gypsy's untimely death, making Aradia a very historical tree, with respect to Gypsy.
Activists came down from Aradia in early 1999, at the end of the original Gypsy Mountain Free State, believing that she was no longer in danger.
Then, right around the out-of-court settlement from the Gypsy wrongful death civil suit, and the formation of the Forest Peace Alliance, a new timber harvest plan was marked and filed on Gypsy Mountain, including Aradia.
When the THP was discovered, some evidence of malicious intention were also found. A hand, flipping us off, was spray painted on Tara, an Old Growth Redwood just above the site where Gypsy was killed, with the words, "To Luna," spray painted with the same paint used to mark THPs. A similar hand was also found on a rug used to cover a sweat lodge that was built and used in March of 2000.
Also, in 2000, a few trees, which would have been part of the Gypsy Memorial, were cut while we witnesses were doing our depositions with Maxxam lawyers, in a stuffy Eureka lawyers' office. The Gypsy Memorial, up on Gypsy Mountain, is 100 feet of protection in all directions from the tree that was fallen on Gypsy, which still lies where it was fallen on David.
While it may not have been the will or malicious intention of everyone at Maxxam/Pacific Lumber, it is obvious that someone, or a few somebodies in charge, are carrying out a vendetta against Earth First!, working against the spirit of the Forest Peace Alliance.
We are asking that Aradia, plus a buffer zone, be permanently protected, at least, and we would prefer that the whole timber harvest plan be thrown out, so that Gypsy Mountain can be preserved.
Activists came down from Aradia in early 1999, at the end of the original Gypsy Mountain Free State, believing that she was no longer in danger.
Then, right around the out-of-court settlement from the Gypsy wrongful death civil suit, and the formation of the Forest Peace Alliance, a new timber harvest plan was marked and filed on Gypsy Mountain, including Aradia.
When the THP was discovered, some evidence of malicious intention were also found. A hand, flipping us off, was spray painted on Tara, an Old Growth Redwood just above the site where Gypsy was killed, with the words, "To Luna," spray painted with the same paint used to mark THPs. A similar hand was also found on a rug used to cover a sweat lodge that was built and used in March of 2000.
Also, in 2000, a few trees, which would have been part of the Gypsy Memorial, were cut while we witnesses were doing our depositions with Maxxam lawyers, in a stuffy Eureka lawyers' office. The Gypsy Memorial, up on Gypsy Mountain, is 100 feet of protection in all directions from the tree that was fallen on Gypsy, which still lies where it was fallen on David.
While it may not have been the will or malicious intention of everyone at Maxxam/Pacific Lumber, it is obvious that someone, or a few somebodies in charge, are carrying out a vendetta against Earth First!, working against the spirit of the Forest Peace Alliance.
We are asking that Aradia, plus a buffer zone, be permanently protected, at least, and we would prefer that the whole timber harvest plan be thrown out, so that Gypsy Mountain can be preserved.
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The insults applied to the trees described above were not painted by those who laid out the THP above swains flat. They were written by another party, ignorant of their location. The action was embarrassing and regrettable, but nonetheless unintentional.
The spirit of the plan is hardly vicious. While you may lament the intention of removal of larger trees, please reguard that as a difference of opinion and not an aggressive strike.
I hope that peace can continue and progress can be made.
The spirit of the plan is hardly vicious. While you may lament the intention of removal of larger trees, please reguard that as a difference of opinion and not an aggressive strike.
I hope that peace can continue and progress can be made.
The Aradia tree-sit was a mistake to start with. The first sitter (in 9-98) mis-read the THP and sat in a tree that was not within any of the units. When informed of his mistake, he decided to save a tree that was not slated for harvest, rather than move.
The mounds of litter that were left all over the mountain when the sitters disbanded, made for a poor and insincere testimonial to what they believe.
The mounds of litter that were left all over the mountain when the sitters disbanded, made for a poor and insincere testimonial to what they believe.
The settlement which resulted from David's death was between his family and PL. What has never occured with David's incident, is an honest faced gesture by PL to make some amends to that situation(remember the heavy hitters goes back 16 yrs). Their loggers still fly off the handles with protesters in 2002 on numerous occasions. They are cutting a symbolic tree to those who felt the loss of a comrad. Wanna make more resistance to you by direct action activists, blame it on someone else. And lastly, these ancients one should be illegal to cut. Yea so the THP is legal. Doesn't make it right does it? Slavery was once legal, didn't make that right either. PL has plenty of other second growth plans they could cut, just that their business plan is to liquidate all their old growth here real soon. Remember, management has a game plan to pay back chucky boys fucking debt. that rat bastard should be in jail. If PL wasn't in such financial straits, they might make some amends on this one, but they'd rather sink 35 million in defending that scum bag in Houston. Remember, ol Chuckies latest scam was a plea bargain(admittance of guilt comes with that). And the OTS isn't used to such high profile cases and Chucky did pay a couple hundred thousand dollar fine for his saving and loan scam. Additionally he lost his banking license for a couple years. So he's sucking off the planet like a god damn cockroach. GO FDIC, his latest battle with the loans scandel isn't over yet. Nor is the protection of Aradia. Ought to be forced to give that tree up for the suffering hurwitz has caused to the people's who's savings where liquidated by scum bag hurwitz in the S&L scandel. He ought to be forced to have to deal with the issues of the community being pitted against each other. Still have yet to meet anyone working for PL or as a contractor who likes that capatilist pig. A sincere appology goes out to most of the workers whether they work for PL or are contractors. No that doesn't include you Candy Boak or you Jeffry Berritt. Putting a working person in the middle of this mess isn't fair.
Meanwhile, people on the ground must defend Aradia and props to them for making the stance. NOT ONE MORE ANCIENT TREE!
Meanwhile, people on the ground must defend Aradia and props to them for making the stance. NOT ONE MORE ANCIENT TREE!
Dear Ancient Ones,
We can do with out the rants and the swearing and still understand you.
Please take some time to organize your thoughts and check your spelling.
You detract from your message when you come across as a Wild Child, and not an Ancient One.
Thanks,
Biggist
We can do with out the rants and the swearing and still understand you.
Please take some time to organize your thoughts and check your spelling.
You detract from your message when you come across as a Wild Child, and not an Ancient One.
Thanks,
Biggist
I suggest those unable to comprehend Ancient One take a basic "literacy for adults" course. These are generally available for free in your neighbourhood thanks to the efforts of various literacy activists, but may be shut down given the current anti - education policies of the present regime in power, so take advantage while you can. Best of luck!
It's never a mistake to defend an unprotected ancient Old Growth tree; while Aradia may have been outside of the '98 THP, it seems that our family had a premonition that Maxxam would come and try to take her, and they were right.
If the insults were not done by a PL employee, then why were the marks in the same paint used to mark the new THP? And how could anyone make it all the way to that particular tree and be ignorant of their location?
What I want to focus on, though, is the preservation of Aradia and Gypsy Mountain.
It would be really easy to do, and would really show respect for Gypsy and his family.
I know that the forest defenders will not give up on this one, and it would be better to resolve the situation than risk another death or injury.
Many people are still trying to heal from September 17th, 1998...please allow the wound to heal, by removing irritation to the wound.
Remember David Nathan "Gypsy" Chain....
If the insults were not done by a PL employee, then why were the marks in the same paint used to mark the new THP? And how could anyone make it all the way to that particular tree and be ignorant of their location?
What I want to focus on, though, is the preservation of Aradia and Gypsy Mountain.
It would be really easy to do, and would really show respect for Gypsy and his family.
I know that the forest defenders will not give up on this one, and it would be better to resolve the situation than risk another death or injury.
Many people are still trying to heal from September 17th, 1998...please allow the wound to heal, by removing irritation to the wound.
Remember David Nathan "Gypsy" Chain....
sometimes one needs to use heavy language. and i honestly don't care whether a few words are mispeled. oh wait did i make a spelling error? the fact of the matter is that aradia shouldn't be cut biggist. what's it matter whether a word is mispelled or hurwitz is called his true colors of being a sucking coachroach on the planet. he's a scumbag and there's nothing which will change my mind of that. yes he should be jailed. and yes aradia should be protected. hurwitz is a scumbag and so is john campbell and david galitz. so what else is new. well there's new management in town and they can make some amends if they truly want to resolve these issues. the fight will continue till it's either cut or protected. one way or another, the resistance will probably continue. so deal. fuck hurwitz, he's a nice good ol capitalist and it's his god given right to rape the planet. i guess.........
I did not state that the paint was not from an employee. I wrote that it was not from the folks who laid out the current THP.
The paint was sprayed before the plan was even conceived. I know, I blacked the paint out myself. Again, I am sorry that the insults occured.
I wonder if the memorial grove near 36 and the set aside where Chain was killed are enough to help the healing. How much is enough? A half acre? Ten Acres? 280,000 acres? Please understand that PL has made concessions to help reslove the issue. The previous agreements seem to be enough for your friend's family. How much will be enough for you?While I beleive that you are with good intentions, is it fair to use your martyrs name to continue fighting while saying you want healing? You heal when the fighting is done. Are you willing to stop?
Peace and progress
The paint was sprayed before the plan was even conceived. I know, I blacked the paint out myself. Again, I am sorry that the insults occured.
I wonder if the memorial grove near 36 and the set aside where Chain was killed are enough to help the healing. How much is enough? A half acre? Ten Acres? 280,000 acres? Please understand that PL has made concessions to help reslove the issue. The previous agreements seem to be enough for your friend's family. How much will be enough for you?While I beleive that you are with good intentions, is it fair to use your martyrs name to continue fighting while saying you want healing? You heal when the fighting is done. Are you willing to stop?
Peace and progress
The marks were not scraped off until after the THP was laid out, and was found at the same time as the new THP. Do you know who did it?
We are also Gypsy's family, and a downed tree and a plaque are not enough when an Ancient Sacred One, which Gypsy was HELPING TO BOTTOMLINE THE WEEK BEFORE HE WAS KILLED, is marked to be cut.
You act like we want the moon, when all we want is protection for Aradia and Gypsy Mountain.
Look at how well the Luna tree-sit turned out...
The tree was saved, and Julia was able to come down before suffering through another winter...PL looked good for a few moments.
Then Luna was attacked, and we all worked together to make sure that she didn't fall, and was able to begin healing.
You have to give wounds attention in order to heal them, at least to make sure that the wound is not getting infected, and, if it is, then you have to deal with that, or else you can loose part of yourself.
Many of us thought that we could heal, in peace, when the Gypsy case was settled, and then I found the new THP, on a trip up to visit the memorial shortly after the settlement. I was mortified at all the blue marks and insults that I found.
All we're asking for is for Gypsy Mountain to not be devastated more than it already has been by Maxxam.
PL could throw out the THP entirely, and dedicate it's holdings on Gypsy Mountain as a memorial...PL doesn't own that much land in that area, since it's the end of a ridge, adjacent to Grizzly Creek State Park, and part of the mountain is owned as a homestead.
Another option is to create a Luna-type conservation easement, including Aradia and a buffer zone, and then we could ALL WORK TOGETHER to come up with a mutually agreeable, sustainable THP that we could ALL agree on...that would be truly progessive and revolutionary.
What we don't want to see is Aradia murdered, or clearcuts all the way up to Aradia, which could cause the whole memorial to slide down the hill someday.
Please have some respect for Gypsy' Earth First! family...save Gypsy Mountain....
We are also Gypsy's family, and a downed tree and a plaque are not enough when an Ancient Sacred One, which Gypsy was HELPING TO BOTTOMLINE THE WEEK BEFORE HE WAS KILLED, is marked to be cut.
You act like we want the moon, when all we want is protection for Aradia and Gypsy Mountain.
Look at how well the Luna tree-sit turned out...
The tree was saved, and Julia was able to come down before suffering through another winter...PL looked good for a few moments.
Then Luna was attacked, and we all worked together to make sure that she didn't fall, and was able to begin healing.
You have to give wounds attention in order to heal them, at least to make sure that the wound is not getting infected, and, if it is, then you have to deal with that, or else you can loose part of yourself.
Many of us thought that we could heal, in peace, when the Gypsy case was settled, and then I found the new THP, on a trip up to visit the memorial shortly after the settlement. I was mortified at all the blue marks and insults that I found.
All we're asking for is for Gypsy Mountain to not be devastated more than it already has been by Maxxam.
PL could throw out the THP entirely, and dedicate it's holdings on Gypsy Mountain as a memorial...PL doesn't own that much land in that area, since it's the end of a ridge, adjacent to Grizzly Creek State Park, and part of the mountain is owned as a homestead.
Another option is to create a Luna-type conservation easement, including Aradia and a buffer zone, and then we could ALL WORK TOGETHER to come up with a mutually agreeable, sustainable THP that we could ALL agree on...that would be truly progessive and revolutionary.
What we don't want to see is Aradia murdered, or clearcuts all the way up to Aradia, which could cause the whole memorial to slide down the hill someday.
Please have some respect for Gypsy' Earth First! family...save Gypsy Mountain....
The marks were not scraped off until after the THP was laid out, and was found at the same time as the new THP. Do you know who did it?
We are also Gypsy's family, and a downed tree and a plaque are not enough when an Ancient Sacred One, which Gypsy was HELPING TO BOTTOMLINE THE WEEK BEFORE HE WAS KILLED, is marked to be cut.
You act like we want the moon, when all we want is protection for Aradia and Gypsy Mountain.
Look at how well the Luna tree-sit turned out...
The tree was saved, and Julia was able to come down before suffering through another winter...PL looked good for a few moments.
Then Luna was attacked, and we all worked together to make sure that she didn't fall, and was able to begin healing.
You have to give wounds attention in order to heal them, at least to make sure that the wound is not getting infected, and, if it is, then you have to deal with that, or else you can loose part of yourself.
Many of us thought that we could heal, in peace, when the Gypsy case was settled, and then I found the new THP, on a trip up to visit the memorial shortly after the settlement. I was mortified at all the blue marks and insults that I found.
All we're asking for is for Gypsy Mountain to not be devastated more than it already has been by Maxxam.
PL could throw out the THP entirely, and dedicate it's holdings on Gypsy Mountain as a memorial...PL doesn't own that much land in that area, since it's the end of a ridge, adjacent to Grizzly Creek State Park, and part of the mountain is owned as a homestead.
Another option is to create a Luna-type conservation easement, including Aradia and a buffer zone, and then we could ALL WORK TOGETHER to come up with a mutually agreeable, sustainable THP that we could ALL agree on...that would be truly progessive and revolutionary.
What we don't want to see is Aradia murdered, or clearcuts all the way up to Aradia, which could cause the whole memorial to slide down the hill someday.
Please have some respect for Gypsy's Earth First! family...save Gypsy Mountain....
We are also Gypsy's family, and a downed tree and a plaque are not enough when an Ancient Sacred One, which Gypsy was HELPING TO BOTTOMLINE THE WEEK BEFORE HE WAS KILLED, is marked to be cut.
You act like we want the moon, when all we want is protection for Aradia and Gypsy Mountain.
Look at how well the Luna tree-sit turned out...
The tree was saved, and Julia was able to come down before suffering through another winter...PL looked good for a few moments.
Then Luna was attacked, and we all worked together to make sure that she didn't fall, and was able to begin healing.
You have to give wounds attention in order to heal them, at least to make sure that the wound is not getting infected, and, if it is, then you have to deal with that, or else you can loose part of yourself.
Many of us thought that we could heal, in peace, when the Gypsy case was settled, and then I found the new THP, on a trip up to visit the memorial shortly after the settlement. I was mortified at all the blue marks and insults that I found.
All we're asking for is for Gypsy Mountain to not be devastated more than it already has been by Maxxam.
PL could throw out the THP entirely, and dedicate it's holdings on Gypsy Mountain as a memorial...PL doesn't own that much land in that area, since it's the end of a ridge, adjacent to Grizzly Creek State Park, and part of the mountain is owned as a homestead.
Another option is to create a Luna-type conservation easement, including Aradia and a buffer zone, and then we could ALL WORK TOGETHER to come up with a mutually agreeable, sustainable THP that we could ALL agree on...that would be truly progessive and revolutionary.
What we don't want to see is Aradia murdered, or clearcuts all the way up to Aradia, which could cause the whole memorial to slide down the hill someday.
Please have some respect for Gypsy's Earth First! family...save Gypsy Mountain....
Shunka,
You have piled it so deep, I don't know where to start.
speechless,
Biggist
You have piled it so deep, I don't know where to start.
speechless,
Biggist
Piled truth on top of truth on top of truth...start at what?
It's pretty hard to chisel away at the foundations of truth, especially when you're using lies to attempt it...lies just don't hold up in the face of the truth, natural fact.
Aradia is a historical part of the Gypsy story, and should be made part of the memorial...basic truth.
Gypsy Mountain should be preserved, so that people don't have to hike through a clearcut to see the mountaintop memorial, and so that the memorial doesn't slide down the mountain someday...basic truth.
Aradia is a HUGE ANCIENT OLD GROWTH REDWOOD, and should be PERMANENTLY PROTECTED...progressive truth.
Please help to save Aradia and Gypsy Mountain...
It's pretty hard to chisel away at the foundations of truth, especially when you're using lies to attempt it...lies just don't hold up in the face of the truth, natural fact.
Aradia is a historical part of the Gypsy story, and should be made part of the memorial...basic truth.
Gypsy Mountain should be preserved, so that people don't have to hike through a clearcut to see the mountaintop memorial, and so that the memorial doesn't slide down the mountain someday...basic truth.
Aradia is a HUGE ANCIENT OLD GROWTH REDWOOD, and should be PERMANENTLY PROTECTED...progressive truth.
Please help to save Aradia and Gypsy Mountain...
Piled truth on top of truth on top of truth...start at what?
It's pretty hard to chisel away at the foundations of truth, especially when you're using lies to attempt it...lies just don't hold up in the face of the truth, natural fact.
Aradia is a historical part of the Gypsy story, and should be made part of the memorial...basic truth.
Gypsy Mountain should be preserved, so that people don't have to hike through a clearcut to see the mountaintop memorial, and so that the memorial doesn't slide down the mountain someday...basic truth.
Aradia is a HUGE ANCIENT OLD GROWTH REDWOOD, and should be PERMANENTLY PROTECTED...progressive truth.
Please help to save Aradia and Gypsy Mountain...
It's pretty hard to chisel away at the foundations of truth, especially when you're using lies to attempt it...lies just don't hold up in the face of the truth, natural fact.
Aradia is a historical part of the Gypsy story, and should be made part of the memorial...basic truth.
Gypsy Mountain should be preserved, so that people don't have to hike through a clearcut to see the mountaintop memorial, and so that the memorial doesn't slide down the mountain someday...basic truth.
Aradia is a HUGE ANCIENT OLD GROWTH REDWOOD, and should be PERMANENTLY PROTECTED...progressive truth.
Please help to save Aradia and Gypsy Mountain...
Piled truth on top of truth on top of truth...start at what?
It's pretty hard to chisel away at the foundations of truth, especially when you're using lies to attempt it...lies just don't hold up in the face of the truth, natural fact.
Aradia is a historical part of the Gypsy story, and should be made part of the memorial...basic truth.
Gypsy Mountain should be preserved, so that people don't have to hike through a clearcut to see the mountaintop memorial, and so that the memorial doesn't slide down the mountain someday...basic truth.
Aradia is a HUGE ANCIENT OLD GROWTH REDWOOD, and should be PERMANENTLY PROTECTED...progressive truth.
Please help to save Aradia and Gypsy Mountain...
It's pretty hard to chisel away at the foundations of truth, especially when you're using lies to attempt it...lies just don't hold up in the face of the truth, natural fact.
Aradia is a historical part of the Gypsy story, and should be made part of the memorial...basic truth.
Gypsy Mountain should be preserved, so that people don't have to hike through a clearcut to see the mountaintop memorial, and so that the memorial doesn't slide down the mountain someday...basic truth.
Aradia is a HUGE ANCIENT OLD GROWTH REDWOOD, and should be PERMANENTLY PROTECTED...progressive truth.
Please help to save Aradia and Gypsy Mountain...
Actually, truth is relative. Each person has their own truth. The word you are searching for is dogma, and you can't argue with dogma. Mr. Wilson, your philosophies and beliefs are your own, not Universal.
Yes, I do know who painted the trees. I know when they were painted and when the plan was laid out. Otherwise I wouldn't be posting these statements. You will have to accept my truth here, or live in the darkness of your own beleifs.
You were in the tree when David died. You weren't by his side, or stopping the loggers. You were safe in a tree (Aradia) that was outside of the harvest plan. Aradia is important to you, and you are using David Chain's name to fight your battle. Use your friend's name as you wish, but try not to cheapen his memory.
David Chain now has a memorial grove and a memorial site where he died. Now you want a tree, that was 1000 feet from where he died, and a buffer? Why not the location of the base camp as well?
Just a little from the pile of my truth.
peace and progress.
Yes, I do know who painted the trees. I know when they were painted and when the plan was laid out. Otherwise I wouldn't be posting these statements. You will have to accept my truth here, or live in the darkness of your own beleifs.
You were in the tree when David died. You weren't by his side, or stopping the loggers. You were safe in a tree (Aradia) that was outside of the harvest plan. Aradia is important to you, and you are using David Chain's name to fight your battle. Use your friend's name as you wish, but try not to cheapen his memory.
David Chain now has a memorial grove and a memorial site where he died. Now you want a tree, that was 1000 feet from where he died, and a buffer? Why not the location of the base camp as well?
Just a little from the pile of my truth.
peace and progress.
All of the old growth trees?
If tree farming is sustainable why are
any of these few survivors slated to be cut?
If you can't replace them as fast as they are
needed, why continue the destructive practice?
If tree farming is sustainable why are
any of these few survivors slated to be cut?
If you can't replace them as fast as they are
needed, why continue the destructive practice?
Is it because short term gain at the expense of
our irreplaceable heritage is the prime if not
the only consideration?
our irreplaceable heritage is the prime if not
the only consideration?
The TRUTH is that I WAS just a few feet from Gypsy when he was killed...I don't know where you get your information from, and you couldn't be more wrong.
I hiked up the mountain with Gypsy that day, and I saw the trees falling AWAY from us as we approached.
We announced our presence, very loudly and clearly, and I saw the logger, A.E. Ammons, pop up on the hill and began screaming. I was RIGHT THERE!
I heard A.E. screaming his death threats at us, and I was there when we tried to calm him down, when our sister, Carrie, tried to talk to him, hoping to calm his anger with her sacred femine spirit.
I was just a few feet behind Gypsy when A.E. pounded out that wedge, and sent that tree falling AT US!
I just barely made it out of the way, as I heard the tree slam into the ground, and felt debris pelt the back of my head. I was surrounded by a huge cloud of duff and dust, and was temporarily blinded. I thought I was dead for a few moments, because I felt something happening to the back of my head, when I was pelted with debris, and then everything went WHITE, as the cloud of dust and duff surrounded me. I thought, "That's it, I'm dead, I'm really dead..."
Then, the dust began to settle, the trees came back into view, and I reached out my hand, and saw that I was still in my physical body. I turned 180 degrees, back towards where the tree had just come from, and began yelling out,
"Hey! You almost hit us with that one, man! You almost killed us with that one!"
And then Carrie said, "Wait, where's Gypsy? He was just right here!"
"What?!?!" we said. "Let's call out for him on the count of three."
"1,2,3, GYPSY!!!!"
Silence, except for the logger, who said,
"Who's Jesse, is that your dog?"
"No! Gypsy's a human being," we yelled.
And then A.E. walked up the tree that he had just fallen on Gypsy, and was the first one to see his body.
"Oh, there's your friend, he's decapitated!" said A.E.
"Oh my God, let's pray!" said Carrie.
And then A.E. and Carrie knelt by Gypsy's body for a few brief moments, before A.E. ran up the hillside and disappeared, leaving us there to weep and mourn the loss of our friend.
I was right there, alright, and Maxxam/PL almost took my life that day, too...check the depositions.
So, next time, before you start printing disinformation all over the net, and accuse me of USING Gypsy for any sort of personal agenda, get your facts straight, and have some respect for those of us who are giving our lives to create a better world for us all.
Also, the place where the base camp was is already saved, and stop acting like we're asking for the moon.
Aradia has tremendous historical significance in relation to David "Gypsy" Chain's life and death, and should be made part of the memorial, at no extra charge...the ultimate price has already been paid.
Now that you know about the significance of Aradia, if you are sincere about the Forest Peace Alliance, you will save Aradia.
Instead of making rediculous accusations, why not follow up on the spirit of the Forest Peace Alliance and work WITH US on this one.
If we saved Aradia and a buffer zone around her, then we could all work TOGETHER on a THP for the rest of the mountain that we can ALL AGREE ON, as an experiment in true sustainable forestry.
Don't let fear get in the way of peace and progress.
Gypsy was helping to bottomline the Aradia tree-sit within the week before he was killed...remember that.
Aradia would be a living memorial to Gypsy, as she represents what Gypsy was all about...saving the last of the Ancient Old Growth forests.
Aradia is in an UNCUT GROVE...perfect conservation easement material.
So many reasons to save Aradia...why be so stubborn?
Save Aradia and Gypsy Mountain!
I hiked up the mountain with Gypsy that day, and I saw the trees falling AWAY from us as we approached.
We announced our presence, very loudly and clearly, and I saw the logger, A.E. Ammons, pop up on the hill and began screaming. I was RIGHT THERE!
I heard A.E. screaming his death threats at us, and I was there when we tried to calm him down, when our sister, Carrie, tried to talk to him, hoping to calm his anger with her sacred femine spirit.
I was just a few feet behind Gypsy when A.E. pounded out that wedge, and sent that tree falling AT US!
I just barely made it out of the way, as I heard the tree slam into the ground, and felt debris pelt the back of my head. I was surrounded by a huge cloud of duff and dust, and was temporarily blinded. I thought I was dead for a few moments, because I felt something happening to the back of my head, when I was pelted with debris, and then everything went WHITE, as the cloud of dust and duff surrounded me. I thought, "That's it, I'm dead, I'm really dead..."
Then, the dust began to settle, the trees came back into view, and I reached out my hand, and saw that I was still in my physical body. I turned 180 degrees, back towards where the tree had just come from, and began yelling out,
"Hey! You almost hit us with that one, man! You almost killed us with that one!"
And then Carrie said, "Wait, where's Gypsy? He was just right here!"
"What?!?!" we said. "Let's call out for him on the count of three."
"1,2,3, GYPSY!!!!"
Silence, except for the logger, who said,
"Who's Jesse, is that your dog?"
"No! Gypsy's a human being," we yelled.
And then A.E. walked up the tree that he had just fallen on Gypsy, and was the first one to see his body.
"Oh, there's your friend, he's decapitated!" said A.E.
"Oh my God, let's pray!" said Carrie.
And then A.E. and Carrie knelt by Gypsy's body for a few brief moments, before A.E. ran up the hillside and disappeared, leaving us there to weep and mourn the loss of our friend.
I was right there, alright, and Maxxam/PL almost took my life that day, too...check the depositions.
So, next time, before you start printing disinformation all over the net, and accuse me of USING Gypsy for any sort of personal agenda, get your facts straight, and have some respect for those of us who are giving our lives to create a better world for us all.
Also, the place where the base camp was is already saved, and stop acting like we're asking for the moon.
Aradia has tremendous historical significance in relation to David "Gypsy" Chain's life and death, and should be made part of the memorial, at no extra charge...the ultimate price has already been paid.
Now that you know about the significance of Aradia, if you are sincere about the Forest Peace Alliance, you will save Aradia.
Instead of making rediculous accusations, why not follow up on the spirit of the Forest Peace Alliance and work WITH US on this one.
If we saved Aradia and a buffer zone around her, then we could all work TOGETHER on a THP for the rest of the mountain that we can ALL AGREE ON, as an experiment in true sustainable forestry.
Don't let fear get in the way of peace and progress.
Gypsy was helping to bottomline the Aradia tree-sit within the week before he was killed...remember that.
Aradia would be a living memorial to Gypsy, as she represents what Gypsy was all about...saving the last of the Ancient Old Growth forests.
Aradia is in an UNCUT GROVE...perfect conservation easement material.
So many reasons to save Aradia...why be so stubborn?
Save Aradia and Gypsy Mountain!
Hey Jason, if you say you were there I have to take your word for it. Please excuse the misinformation.
You never mentioned Aradia once in your story. There was no given implication toward significance.
The intense and horrifying experience you had does not add up to historical significance.
Compromise does not occur one sided.
What has your side given up in the Peace alliance?
It seems to me that the process has been the industry capitulating to your needs.
Progress should occur one both sides.
Peace and progress.
You never mentioned Aradia once in your story. There was no given implication toward significance.
The intense and horrifying experience you had does not add up to historical significance.
Compromise does not occur one sided.
What has your side given up in the Peace alliance?
It seems to me that the process has been the industry capitulating to your needs.
Progress should occur one both sides.
Peace and progress.
maybe it's time to renounce the non violence code and start to wrench the machines. how's that for a compromise to the peace alliance? hear sand in the crank case works really well. maybe it's time to bring guns into the tree tops and shoot the loggers. I hear they make real good soup for early morning breakfeast.
you fucking loggers want all the trees for your selfish asses. fuck you, come near some of us, and will wrench those tractors. look daddy, what was the planet like before your grand dad spewed all the carbon in the atmosphere and you cut down all the ancient trees and silted the rivers in? you mean to tell me people used to fish in these creeks. yes son they did, but the timber industry felt they where more important than the fishing industry and threw temper tantrums in sacramento to get the cut out, and well, the fishies lost. yes, that's right, bow to the timber god. he will rape you and take your joints, give you arthritis and spit you out. be nice to big timber.
save an owl, shoot a logger!
you fucking loggers want all the trees for your selfish asses. fuck you, come near some of us, and will wrench those tractors. look daddy, what was the planet like before your grand dad spewed all the carbon in the atmosphere and you cut down all the ancient trees and silted the rivers in? you mean to tell me people used to fish in these creeks. yes son they did, but the timber industry felt they where more important than the fishing industry and threw temper tantrums in sacramento to get the cut out, and well, the fishies lost. yes, that's right, bow to the timber god. he will rape you and take your joints, give you arthritis and spit you out. be nice to big timber.
save an owl, shoot a logger!
It's their fat tender bosses that would have good marbling and with enough catsup, go good with garlic bread.
Of course you have to do a butterfly split to let the meat
cook properly like you would do with a large pig.
Of course you have to do a butterfly split to let the meat
cook properly like you would do with a large pig.
Mr. Wilson,
We aren't going to resolve our differences with this discourse, but I appreciate your willingness to discuss the issues. I respect your point of view, but I still disagree on the historical significance debate.
Someday we may meet on the FPA (if it endures), and we'll get the chance to talk in person.
Until then, stay safe.
Peace and Progress.
We aren't going to resolve our differences with this discourse, but I appreciate your willingness to discuss the issues. I respect your point of view, but I still disagree on the historical significance debate.
Someday we may meet on the FPA (if it endures), and we'll get the chance to talk in person.
Until then, stay safe.
Peace and Progress.
OK, now we're onto some progress. Here's the deal. I'll say allowing land to be cut is reasonable. Hey let's say keep unentered areas at say 50%. That's a fair split isn't it? 50-50. fair, you choose the piee. Ok...so it's a land owners right to harvest their trees. Ok so let's say maybe a 60/40 split on what can be cut? But it's zoned TPZ. Ok... Ok... Geesh, I'll give some more. How about a 70/30 split? That means you can unsustainably cut 70 percent of your holdings? That's a fair comprimise isn't it? But wait, now your telling the public since the Headwaters scam, we want all of it. You get 5% for the parks. That's it. Hummm... is that fair? a 95/5 split. Gee who's unable to comprise or give a little. Greedy fucking pigs! Get real on giving a little, you already have taken pretty near all the ancient forest, and now your claiming to want more. I say fuck it, let's battle till the end on the last 3% of the remaining old growth and dependant species. OR is the struggle to protect 125 yr old trees over?
Never could figure out how a company who's dependant on a tree that doesn't germinate until it's an average age of 125 yrs old, can call itself sustainable. Yea I know you can harvest the seeds or sprout seedlings, but in my mind, a minimum of a 125 yr crop rotation, would start to look sustainable in the slightest sense of the imagination. probably a better estimate to aim for a 150 yr crop rotation on the redwood forest. But companies in this capatilistic system can't operate I'd suppose. Shush, rumour has it, there's still a few companies who's great grand daddy's entered the forest and their grand kids are now cutting in those same forests. But they are far and few between, and their sole purpose isn't to maximize profit from the land. It's taking what the land is willing to give, not being raped. Fuck Pacific Lumber, Fuck Maxxam!
But we forced the Habitat Conversion plan down the public's throat. Don't worry, be happy. But, you wanted to talk about giving a little. umm, this isn't a fair struggle.
HAHA, he who owns the gold, wins, didn't chucky say that once his hostile take over was finished. Never understood why these corporadoes want so damn much.
Never could figure out how a company who's dependant on a tree that doesn't germinate until it's an average age of 125 yrs old, can call itself sustainable. Yea I know you can harvest the seeds or sprout seedlings, but in my mind, a minimum of a 125 yr crop rotation, would start to look sustainable in the slightest sense of the imagination. probably a better estimate to aim for a 150 yr crop rotation on the redwood forest. But companies in this capatilistic system can't operate I'd suppose. Shush, rumour has it, there's still a few companies who's great grand daddy's entered the forest and their grand kids are now cutting in those same forests. But they are far and few between, and their sole purpose isn't to maximize profit from the land. It's taking what the land is willing to give, not being raped. Fuck Pacific Lumber, Fuck Maxxam!
But we forced the Habitat Conversion plan down the public's throat. Don't worry, be happy. But, you wanted to talk about giving a little. umm, this isn't a fair struggle.
HAHA, he who owns the gold, wins, didn't chucky say that once his hostile take over was finished. Never understood why these corporadoes want so damn much.
I have stated the historical significance of Aradia, yet I will do it again, just so it's clear.
1)The Aradia tree-sit went up, just a week or so before Gypsy was killed.
2)Gypsy was helping to bottomline direct support for Aradia...that's the second time I met Gypsy, down at a Grizzly Creek State Park campsite, where there was a support camp for the new Aradia tree-sit, the day before he was killed.
3)A PL worker came up to Aradia, moments after Gypsy was killed, and communicated with the tree-sitters about Gypsy's death.
4)Aradia is just up the ridge from where Gypsy was killed, and would make a great LIVING MEMORIAL to Gypsy, since the Ancient Old Growth is what Gypsy was really inspired by.
5)This country preserves buildings that are WAY younger than Aradia as "historical monuments."
6)Aradia was maintained throughout the rest of 1998, after Gypsy was killed on Sept. 17th, 1998, and into March of 1999, as part of the Gypsy Mountain Free State, a very beautiful, sad, wonderful, and painful time, when EF! activists gathered on Gypsy Mountain, to bring out the truth about what happened to Gypsy, to get the tree which was fallen on Gypsy preserved as evidence, to try to save the remaining trees on Gypsy Mountain, and to grieve the loss of a brother and fellow Earth activist.
7)Aradia has a special place in the hearts of many Humboldt Forest Defenders, connected to Gypsy's life, death, and spirit.
We have not given up on the Forest Peace Alliance...we still want to work things out, in a way that we can ALL agree on, feel comfortable with, and live with.
Why has PL not lived up to their agreement?
Why are trees still being fallen with people in the area?
Why are climbers allowed to man-handle activists without the presence of law enforcement, to "serve and protect" the safety of everyone involved?
These are clearly violations of the Forest Peace Alliance, and then I get accused of USING Gypsy's name for some kind of selfish agenda, when I'm trying to get you to understand how deep the roots go with Aradia, and trying to end the conflict in a good way for everyone, before someone else gets hurt or killed.
Why not work with us on saving the last of these Old Growth? There must be a better way than SLAPP suits...aren't they expensive?
There are bound to be funds around to help save these trees, which could be used to help feed people's families and pay for restoration jobs for laid-off loggers, instead of throwing a bunch of money away into the shitstem, don't you agree?
SLAPP suits don't work, and they just cost you a bunch of money...none of us have money for you to sue for!
And we don't plan on selling out and becoming yuppies someday, either, so your SLAPP suits are a HUGE waste of time, money, and energy.
Instead, we could work on SAVING all the trees that people are sitting in, helping the local folks, and working together instead of against each other all the time.
We maintain, however, that no money should be given in Aradia's case, out of principal, because the price has already been paid with Gypsy's life. It would be a slap in the face to demand money for Aradia, even more than the original slap of filing a THP up there right during the settlement last year, and cutting the trees that our friends sat in during the depositions of '2000.
Other trees may be able to be saved Luna-style, IF we could truly work together, as long as all the money wasn't going to Hurwitz...restoration jobs, emergency relief for laid-off locals, HSU...these are all options that we could probably all agree on and would benefit the whole, so let's form a REAL ALLIANCE and start actively working together to SAVE THESE TREES.
If you want the tree-sitters down, save the trees they're sitting in.
With PEACE, LOVE and NON-VIOLENCE FOREVER,
Shunka Wakan
1)The Aradia tree-sit went up, just a week or so before Gypsy was killed.
2)Gypsy was helping to bottomline direct support for Aradia...that's the second time I met Gypsy, down at a Grizzly Creek State Park campsite, where there was a support camp for the new Aradia tree-sit, the day before he was killed.
3)A PL worker came up to Aradia, moments after Gypsy was killed, and communicated with the tree-sitters about Gypsy's death.
4)Aradia is just up the ridge from where Gypsy was killed, and would make a great LIVING MEMORIAL to Gypsy, since the Ancient Old Growth is what Gypsy was really inspired by.
5)This country preserves buildings that are WAY younger than Aradia as "historical monuments."
6)Aradia was maintained throughout the rest of 1998, after Gypsy was killed on Sept. 17th, 1998, and into March of 1999, as part of the Gypsy Mountain Free State, a very beautiful, sad, wonderful, and painful time, when EF! activists gathered on Gypsy Mountain, to bring out the truth about what happened to Gypsy, to get the tree which was fallen on Gypsy preserved as evidence, to try to save the remaining trees on Gypsy Mountain, and to grieve the loss of a brother and fellow Earth activist.
7)Aradia has a special place in the hearts of many Humboldt Forest Defenders, connected to Gypsy's life, death, and spirit.
We have not given up on the Forest Peace Alliance...we still want to work things out, in a way that we can ALL agree on, feel comfortable with, and live with.
Why has PL not lived up to their agreement?
Why are trees still being fallen with people in the area?
Why are climbers allowed to man-handle activists without the presence of law enforcement, to "serve and protect" the safety of everyone involved?
These are clearly violations of the Forest Peace Alliance, and then I get accused of USING Gypsy's name for some kind of selfish agenda, when I'm trying to get you to understand how deep the roots go with Aradia, and trying to end the conflict in a good way for everyone, before someone else gets hurt or killed.
Why not work with us on saving the last of these Old Growth? There must be a better way than SLAPP suits...aren't they expensive?
There are bound to be funds around to help save these trees, which could be used to help feed people's families and pay for restoration jobs for laid-off loggers, instead of throwing a bunch of money away into the shitstem, don't you agree?
SLAPP suits don't work, and they just cost you a bunch of money...none of us have money for you to sue for!
And we don't plan on selling out and becoming yuppies someday, either, so your SLAPP suits are a HUGE waste of time, money, and energy.
Instead, we could work on SAVING all the trees that people are sitting in, helping the local folks, and working together instead of against each other all the time.
We maintain, however, that no money should be given in Aradia's case, out of principal, because the price has already been paid with Gypsy's life. It would be a slap in the face to demand money for Aradia, even more than the original slap of filing a THP up there right during the settlement last year, and cutting the trees that our friends sat in during the depositions of '2000.
Other trees may be able to be saved Luna-style, IF we could truly work together, as long as all the money wasn't going to Hurwitz...restoration jobs, emergency relief for laid-off locals, HSU...these are all options that we could probably all agree on and would benefit the whole, so let's form a REAL ALLIANCE and start actively working together to SAVE THESE TREES.
If you want the tree-sitters down, save the trees they're sitting in.
With PEACE, LOVE and NON-VIOLENCE FOREVER,
Shunka Wakan
Jason, I think that the problem I have with your arguement is your liberal use of the word historic. While it is obvious that the hillside has significant emotional and cultural significance to you and your family, the event that brought about the significance is too recent to be historic. Just a definition issue.
As far as finding a common solution, that needs to occur. It will continue to take work, but it will have to happen eventually. Both sides are exhausted.
I can see that you are constantly thinking about solutions. (It takes imagination suggest to drop humus on Afganistan). But the answers, if the exist are going to be complex. I doubt the Luna situation will replay itself but keep thinking.
Peace and progress
As far as finding a common solution, that needs to occur. It will continue to take work, but it will have to happen eventually. Both sides are exhausted.
I can see that you are constantly thinking about solutions. (It takes imagination suggest to drop humus on Afganistan). But the answers, if the exist are going to be complex. I doubt the Luna situation will replay itself but keep thinking.
Peace and progress
Aradia's history is also part of Gypsy's history, and it's all part of the Mother Earth's herstory; as part of the history of Gypsy and Gypsy Mountain, it ought to be made part of the memorial...why is that so hard for you?
It would be a show of sincerity, on your part, and would allow the wounds to heal...forget about your egos and let Gypsy Mountain live!
It would also make a good Christmas present to Gypsy's family, and to the Earth First! family...some of us would like to go see our families this year, and feel that we can't leave Aradia unprotected...it's the holiday season, man, what about the spirit of giving?
Or does no one really practice anything that this country was supposed to be about?
What kind of lessons are you trying to teach the youth? That this world is a cold, callused place, whose main concern is profit, and that nothing is sacred? I will not accept these teachings...I know that we can make it if we try, and I know that there is goodness within every living thing. It's just a matter of bringing people's goodness out, which varies in difficulty, depending on who you're working with. I know that, if you can get past that hard place in your hearts, then you will have to admit that Aradia should be saved, and that it is better to make a financial sacrifice than to carry the burden of having hardened your hearts to us and to Gypsy's spirit.
Open your hearts and allow yourselves to heal, too.
I have also pointed out that this country preserves buildings, boxes, for crying out loud, younger than this country, as "historical monuments."
Aradia is likely to be 1500-2000 years old, and should be preserved as a historical monument, based on its age alone. It's a memorial to what this Earth used to be like, before the invasion of industrial society, before it got hacked and covered with concrete.
Aradia is one of the Ancient Ones, and has more history than most "historical monuments" in this country.
Also, it's been a long 4+ years here in Humboldt, trying to recover from the trauma Maxxam/PL has put us all through, remembering Gypsy's murder every single day, remembering how the in-justice system lied about it, forever disillusioning us from any kind of American myth of fairness, running supplies for Julia "Butterfly" Hill, finding the cut in Luna, getting assaulted, battered, put into a choking headlock by one of your employees, at the behest of Carl Anderson(head of PL security)...it's been THOUSANDS of days...there is definitely LOTS of history up on Gypsy Mountain, in Aradia, and in the Ancient Old Growth.
Think of the way Luna was saved as a good example of how tree-sits can be resolved in a good way, and we could possibly resolve many more of the current tree-sits in a similar way...the trees get saved and the community gets much-needed help...why not?
Don't let ego get in the way of peace and progress...
Shunka is part of the name that I was given on the Cheyenne River Lakota Reservation, in South Dakota, and it's the name I go by...please respect that...
Aho! Mitakuye Oyasin!(Honor and blessings! To all my relations! -Lakota)
It would be a show of sincerity, on your part, and would allow the wounds to heal...forget about your egos and let Gypsy Mountain live!
It would also make a good Christmas present to Gypsy's family, and to the Earth First! family...some of us would like to go see our families this year, and feel that we can't leave Aradia unprotected...it's the holiday season, man, what about the spirit of giving?
Or does no one really practice anything that this country was supposed to be about?
What kind of lessons are you trying to teach the youth? That this world is a cold, callused place, whose main concern is profit, and that nothing is sacred? I will not accept these teachings...I know that we can make it if we try, and I know that there is goodness within every living thing. It's just a matter of bringing people's goodness out, which varies in difficulty, depending on who you're working with. I know that, if you can get past that hard place in your hearts, then you will have to admit that Aradia should be saved, and that it is better to make a financial sacrifice than to carry the burden of having hardened your hearts to us and to Gypsy's spirit.
Open your hearts and allow yourselves to heal, too.
I have also pointed out that this country preserves buildings, boxes, for crying out loud, younger than this country, as "historical monuments."
Aradia is likely to be 1500-2000 years old, and should be preserved as a historical monument, based on its age alone. It's a memorial to what this Earth used to be like, before the invasion of industrial society, before it got hacked and covered with concrete.
Aradia is one of the Ancient Ones, and has more history than most "historical monuments" in this country.
Also, it's been a long 4+ years here in Humboldt, trying to recover from the trauma Maxxam/PL has put us all through, remembering Gypsy's murder every single day, remembering how the in-justice system lied about it, forever disillusioning us from any kind of American myth of fairness, running supplies for Julia "Butterfly" Hill, finding the cut in Luna, getting assaulted, battered, put into a choking headlock by one of your employees, at the behest of Carl Anderson(head of PL security)...it's been THOUSANDS of days...there is definitely LOTS of history up on Gypsy Mountain, in Aradia, and in the Ancient Old Growth.
Think of the way Luna was saved as a good example of how tree-sits can be resolved in a good way, and we could possibly resolve many more of the current tree-sits in a similar way...the trees get saved and the community gets much-needed help...why not?
Don't let ego get in the way of peace and progress...
Shunka is part of the name that I was given on the Cheyenne River Lakota Reservation, in South Dakota, and it's the name I go by...please respect that...
Aho! Mitakuye Oyasin!(Honor and blessings! To all my relations! -Lakota)
"Or does no one really practice anything that this country was supposed to be about? "
Our country was founded, in part, on private property rights, how you respect some of those?
Our country was founded, in part, on private property rights, how you respect some of those?
Private property is based on genocide, and is a result of the massacre and relocation of the native people of this Earth. All of the TPZs in this country are a result of stolen land...and it wasn't that long ago. Our generation has not forgotten how this country was founded...genocide and slavery, and that pattern continues, to this day, on a global scale.
And it's being done by multinational corporations, with the help of governments and militaries, all over the world. These cycles of violence must be stopped, and they will be stopped, by the upcoming generations.
Read the Hopi prophesy....
I am in support of true equality, freedom with respect to all, life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, true justice...too bad these things have seldom been practiced in America...it's been a long, hard, sad road of genocide, slavery, oppression, destruction, deception...look at how hard women and Africans had to fight for shreds of equality, and the struggle goes on.
You cannot fool the upcoming generations...we know how this country was founded, and we're not buying into the illusion that you're trying to sell...this land was stolen, and we're giving it back.
Have you ever been into a sweat lodge?
Maybe you should come to one, and spend some time with some real elders, some truly wise people, practice some humility, and find the sacredness within all of Life. The sweat can help to clean and heal your mind, body, and soul. The doors are open to you all...
And it's being done by multinational corporations, with the help of governments and militaries, all over the world. These cycles of violence must be stopped, and they will be stopped, by the upcoming generations.
Read the Hopi prophesy....
I am in support of true equality, freedom with respect to all, life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, true justice...too bad these things have seldom been practiced in America...it's been a long, hard, sad road of genocide, slavery, oppression, destruction, deception...look at how hard women and Africans had to fight for shreds of equality, and the struggle goes on.
You cannot fool the upcoming generations...we know how this country was founded, and we're not buying into the illusion that you're trying to sell...this land was stolen, and we're giving it back.
Have you ever been into a sweat lodge?
Maybe you should come to one, and spend some time with some real elders, some truly wise people, practice some humility, and find the sacredness within all of Life. The sweat can help to clean and heal your mind, body, and soul. The doors are open to you all...
Mr. Shunka Wilson,
Have enough repect for all living things to allow for differences of opinion without assassinations of character. The assumption that a hard place must exist in the hearts of those that disagree with you is unfair. People will disagree without character flaws. It is a difference in ethics, not a lack of ethics.
I have not yet addressed the moral issues of what to do with Aradia (and trees similar). However, there is more than just a moral side to the issue. You have heard the arguements before, and I will spare you the time to restate them. No positions will change.
The success of treesits is another issue. If every treesit was allowed to succeed, then every tree that someone wanted to save would have someone in it. While that may be an ideal situation for you, that is not the case for all involved. Treesitting is your best wepon and if it continues to win land, will only grow in popularity. Egos and pride aren't the issue. More treesits will mean more dangerous situations similar to Oregon and Santa Cruz. Any act that places the safety of a human being in jeopardy is inexcusable (on any side).
Peace and Progress.
Have enough repect for all living things to allow for differences of opinion without assassinations of character. The assumption that a hard place must exist in the hearts of those that disagree with you is unfair. People will disagree without character flaws. It is a difference in ethics, not a lack of ethics.
I have not yet addressed the moral issues of what to do with Aradia (and trees similar). However, there is more than just a moral side to the issue. You have heard the arguements before, and I will spare you the time to restate them. No positions will change.
The success of treesits is another issue. If every treesit was allowed to succeed, then every tree that someone wanted to save would have someone in it. While that may be an ideal situation for you, that is not the case for all involved. Treesitting is your best wepon and if it continues to win land, will only grow in popularity. Egos and pride aren't the issue. More treesits will mean more dangerous situations similar to Oregon and Santa Cruz. Any act that places the safety of a human being in jeopardy is inexcusable (on any side).
Peace and Progress.
Pacific Slumber Company is trying to suggest here that we have time! How laughable is that. For the people with their heads so far up their asses that can't see the clear-cuts and siltated rivers, try to see the light! No compromise in defense of Mother Earth! If one negotiates with killers, one might end up losing everything. When is enough enough, when all of the forests are reduced to sapplings? When do the children of today get to start building a sustainable future for the kids of tomorrow. Time is almost gone.
"No positions will change." Is that any way to proceed?
How can we have "peace and progress" when no positions will change? Peace will come when change is implemented in forest practices...when every last Old Growth is either saved or gone, when clearcutting is an outdated method of forestry, when herbicides have been banned, and when people are no longer logging on steep, unstable slopes.
How can we be working towards peace when you are saying that "no positions will change"?
About the hard place in people's hearts...
What I'm saying is that if there is a wall there, created by ego or pride, then recognize that, tear that wall down, and proceed with clarity. I know that sometimes people don't want to do certain things just because someone else wants them to...it's a natural instinct of not wanting to be controlled by others.
What I'm trying to get across is that if anyone is being held back from doing a good thing, just because they feel like they would be giving in, and they just want to save face, then that's just ego, and they need to get over that juvenile tendency and take that real step towards doing what is RIGHT.
The activities of Maxxam/PL jeopardizes ALL LIFE, because everything is connected, and when you destroy Life in one area, it effects the whole.
Clearcuts, herbicides, Old Growth logging, and landslides DESTROY life, human and otherwise.
Maxxam/PL has been falling trees with people in the area, just within the past week.
Every day that you refuse to save the trees that people are in, you are jeopardizing their lives, because those folks are committed to saving the lives of the trees they are in. So the ball's in your court...save the trees & change your ways, and the tree-sitters will come down and we can all celebrate together.
By the way, when you drive to work every day, you are placing human(and other) lives in jeopardy...inexcusable? Then walk or quit...even then, you would be putting your own life in jeopardy, since there are so many other vehicles rolling around at rediculous speeds...better stay home...an earthquake might hit, though, and you might be in jeopardy of being trapped under a pile of rubble...better stay outside...a mountain lion might get you then, or the elements could put your life in jeopardy...seems that all of life is dangerous, to a certain degree, doesn't it?
Inexcusable? Better rethink your blanket statement, "Any act..." Sounds like dogma...doesn't really hold up.
It would be far better to just save all the remaining Old Growth, start practicing true sustainable forestry, and live in true peace and harmony with your community.
Have the courage to extend your hearts...
Save Aradia and Gypsy Mountain!
How can we have "peace and progress" when no positions will change? Peace will come when change is implemented in forest practices...when every last Old Growth is either saved or gone, when clearcutting is an outdated method of forestry, when herbicides have been banned, and when people are no longer logging on steep, unstable slopes.
How can we be working towards peace when you are saying that "no positions will change"?
About the hard place in people's hearts...
What I'm saying is that if there is a wall there, created by ego or pride, then recognize that, tear that wall down, and proceed with clarity. I know that sometimes people don't want to do certain things just because someone else wants them to...it's a natural instinct of not wanting to be controlled by others.
What I'm trying to get across is that if anyone is being held back from doing a good thing, just because they feel like they would be giving in, and they just want to save face, then that's just ego, and they need to get over that juvenile tendency and take that real step towards doing what is RIGHT.
The activities of Maxxam/PL jeopardizes ALL LIFE, because everything is connected, and when you destroy Life in one area, it effects the whole.
Clearcuts, herbicides, Old Growth logging, and landslides DESTROY life, human and otherwise.
Maxxam/PL has been falling trees with people in the area, just within the past week.
Every day that you refuse to save the trees that people are in, you are jeopardizing their lives, because those folks are committed to saving the lives of the trees they are in. So the ball's in your court...save the trees & change your ways, and the tree-sitters will come down and we can all celebrate together.
By the way, when you drive to work every day, you are placing human(and other) lives in jeopardy...inexcusable? Then walk or quit...even then, you would be putting your own life in jeopardy, since there are so many other vehicles rolling around at rediculous speeds...better stay home...an earthquake might hit, though, and you might be in jeopardy of being trapped under a pile of rubble...better stay outside...a mountain lion might get you then, or the elements could put your life in jeopardy...seems that all of life is dangerous, to a certain degree, doesn't it?
Inexcusable? Better rethink your blanket statement, "Any act..." Sounds like dogma...doesn't really hold up.
It would be far better to just save all the remaining Old Growth, start practicing true sustainable forestry, and live in true peace and harmony with your community.
Have the courage to extend your hearts...
Save Aradia and Gypsy Mountain!
I am afraid that you misunderstood my comment about change. I was stating that no postions will change by rehashing the old arguements. If they didn't work before, they will not work again. We need new arguements and thoughts. Progress is made by setting aside irreconcilable differences and working on what can be achieved. One thing though: Why will peace only occur if your opposition concedes? Peace could also occur if those that shared your point of view changed their minds. Perhaps mankind is not in severe danger over the loss of fragmented habitat. Perhaps old growth in reserves and parks is enough. Perhaps remaining stead fast in your perspective and expecting others to change is a bit too much too ask.
As far as my dogmatic statements, you are correct. But that is a bit of personal belief that I chose to hold onto. The belief that human life is sacred is something I have had my whole life. I can think of worse dogmas.
I just don't understand how anyone could let his brothers and sisters risk their lives. If you are putting your life on the line, at somepoint life will be threatened. The enevitability of the situation confonds me. Driving a car is not endangering life. Driving recklessly or intoxicated is (and thus inexcusable).
I figured that respect for life was one thing we could agree on, and I will not yet assume by your above statements that that is incorrect.
Peace and progress
As far as my dogmatic statements, you are correct. But that is a bit of personal belief that I chose to hold onto. The belief that human life is sacred is something I have had my whole life. I can think of worse dogmas.
I just don't understand how anyone could let his brothers and sisters risk their lives. If you are putting your life on the line, at somepoint life will be threatened. The enevitability of the situation confonds me. Driving a car is not endangering life. Driving recklessly or intoxicated is (and thus inexcusable).
I figured that respect for life was one thing we could agree on, and I will not yet assume by your above statements that that is incorrect.
Peace and progress
richie rich here. get those damn idealist out of the woods. put em in jail. waste taxpayers money. i need the cut to get out damit. you know i'm paying off my savings and loan scandels. god damnit........... temper temper temper.... must get cut out..... property rights... they only apply to big business... fuck you landowners... it's are god given right to flood you out down stream... tough shit on you.... get the fucking cut out.. get the fucking cut out.... cut all the fucking trees down..... i have loans to pay back... fuck the locals... they'll only need these jobs for a few years anyhow.... them joints don't last very long when we work em sixty eighty hours a week getting my cut out... yes my cut...get fish and game to bend over and take it in the ass to get my cut out... get my cut out.... damn.... would you get that cut out..... yea, that's right,,, get my cut out......
Logging, when I lived in Oregon 15 yrs. ago was in the top three on the list of most stressful jobs in America due to the dangerous nature of the work. We lost many members of our community to logging accidents as well as those we lost to the logging trucks that came tearing through our community at all hours of the night and day. [These were mostly children on bikes.] But really astounding was witnessing whole towns fold, almost over night as the lumber companies would pack it up and leave for greener fields when they were done clear cutting our mountains. Deserted schools, shops, businesses , homes. Desperate families, broken people- gone. Ghost towns left.
With loving concern for the web of all life,
Moonstar mother of Wing
With loving concern for the web of all life,
Moonstar mother of Wing
as far as what happened on gypsy mtn..
take a read......
# Nathan died on a steep, unstable slope in the Redwood forests of Northern California on September 17, 1998, when a large redwood tree (approximately 120 ft. tall) fell on top of him. The large redwood tree that killed Nathan was felled by Defendant Ammons, a Pacific Lumber logger, in a manner wholly inconsistent with safe logging customs and practices while Nathan and fellow activists engaged in time honored, First Amendment, free speech protest. Nathan and the other activists were on this day, like so many days before it, attempting to dissuade Defendants? employees from cutting down redwood and Douglas fir trees without considering the dire environmental consequences and potential illegality of their actions. "Wait," the activists implored, until a state agency could get to the logging site to determine whether the cutting was proper and legal. Defendants, however, in violation of law and safe logging customs and practices, with malice, and creating an ultrahazardous situation, proceeded to cut trees in the direction of Nathan and the other activists.
# This was not the first protest Defendants had experienced. In fact there had been hundreds of protests involving thousands of people over a period of almost 13 years. The protests started in 1985, shortly after Texas takeover artist, Charles Hurwitz, purchased Pacific Lumber in a hostile take-over bid that was clouded in legal controversy.
# As a result of the junk bond financed takeover, huge debt obligation was placed on the 128-year-old, debt free Pacific Lumber. With the debt came rapid liquidation of most of the company assets. First, there was the liquidation of over 60 million dollars in excess pension fund revenue. Then, Pacific Lumber sold several of its divisions. Next, Pacific Lumber accelerate logging operations, which included the harvesting of the largest stand of old-growth redwoods left in private hands in the world. As Pacific Lumber accelerated their "liquidation" logging practices, the protests increased.
# More than a decade of protest had ensued by the time Nathan first arrived in Humboldt County in 1997 from his home state of Texas to contribute what he could to save these magnificent trees and their fragile ecosystem. By the time Nathan returned to Humboldt County and was killed in September of 1998, more than 17,000 people had trespassed on property owned by the Corporate Defendants in protest of the Corporate Defendants? policies. Of those activists, more than 700 people had been arrested while in the "woods" protesting logging, as Nathan was protesting on the day of his death.
# Any reasonable company at the center of such a storm of controversy and flood of demonstrations year-after-year would have taken reasonable measures to inform its employees on how to deal safely with such foreseeable protests. Its management would have been practiced in ensuring that its employees, as well as the annual activists, would be as safe as planning and practice could afford.
# Instead, the Corporate Defendants had consciously determined that it was in their best economic interest to exploit the activists and the vast amount of local and national publicity they created. The Corporate Defendants used the activists in order to extort from state and federal authorities a higher than market value for Defendants? old-growth holdings.
# Each time the activists were able to obtain media coverage of the plight of the forest at the hands of the Corporate Defendants, the Corporate Defendants understood they obtained an economic benefit. They understood that as the public grew to appreciate the uniqueness and esthetic value of these Forests -- coupled with the activists? assertion that Defendants would destroy them unless stopped -- the value grew. Thus, the activists, without their knowledge, served a valuable economic asset to the Defendants, and, although Defendants may not have liked them, their presence was certainly tolerated, and in fact, in some manner encouraged.
# In August of 1998, the United States and the State of California agreed to pay almost 500 million dollars for a tiny portion of the Corporate Defendants? property in order to save some of the old-growth redwoods. This tiny portion of property is commonly referred to as the "Headwaters Grove" and several ?lesser groves.? The sale price agreed to was far in excess of fair market value and substantially more than would have been obtained without Defendants? exploitation of the activists. After the price for the sale of the Headwaters Grove was successfully negotiated with California and federal officials, the Corporate Defendants no longer perceived an economic benefit in the presence of the activists and such would not be tolerated. However, the decade-old controversy still remained. The long stewing frustration and violence that the years of protest and exploitation had engendered was about to erupt.
take a read......
# Nathan died on a steep, unstable slope in the Redwood forests of Northern California on September 17, 1998, when a large redwood tree (approximately 120 ft. tall) fell on top of him. The large redwood tree that killed Nathan was felled by Defendant Ammons, a Pacific Lumber logger, in a manner wholly inconsistent with safe logging customs and practices while Nathan and fellow activists engaged in time honored, First Amendment, free speech protest. Nathan and the other activists were on this day, like so many days before it, attempting to dissuade Defendants? employees from cutting down redwood and Douglas fir trees without considering the dire environmental consequences and potential illegality of their actions. "Wait," the activists implored, until a state agency could get to the logging site to determine whether the cutting was proper and legal. Defendants, however, in violation of law and safe logging customs and practices, with malice, and creating an ultrahazardous situation, proceeded to cut trees in the direction of Nathan and the other activists.
# This was not the first protest Defendants had experienced. In fact there had been hundreds of protests involving thousands of people over a period of almost 13 years. The protests started in 1985, shortly after Texas takeover artist, Charles Hurwitz, purchased Pacific Lumber in a hostile take-over bid that was clouded in legal controversy.
# As a result of the junk bond financed takeover, huge debt obligation was placed on the 128-year-old, debt free Pacific Lumber. With the debt came rapid liquidation of most of the company assets. First, there was the liquidation of over 60 million dollars in excess pension fund revenue. Then, Pacific Lumber sold several of its divisions. Next, Pacific Lumber accelerate logging operations, which included the harvesting of the largest stand of old-growth redwoods left in private hands in the world. As Pacific Lumber accelerated their "liquidation" logging practices, the protests increased.
# More than a decade of protest had ensued by the time Nathan first arrived in Humboldt County in 1997 from his home state of Texas to contribute what he could to save these magnificent trees and their fragile ecosystem. By the time Nathan returned to Humboldt County and was killed in September of 1998, more than 17,000 people had trespassed on property owned by the Corporate Defendants in protest of the Corporate Defendants? policies. Of those activists, more than 700 people had been arrested while in the "woods" protesting logging, as Nathan was protesting on the day of his death.
# Any reasonable company at the center of such a storm of controversy and flood of demonstrations year-after-year would have taken reasonable measures to inform its employees on how to deal safely with such foreseeable protests. Its management would have been practiced in ensuring that its employees, as well as the annual activists, would be as safe as planning and practice could afford.
# Instead, the Corporate Defendants had consciously determined that it was in their best economic interest to exploit the activists and the vast amount of local and national publicity they created. The Corporate Defendants used the activists in order to extort from state and federal authorities a higher than market value for Defendants? old-growth holdings.
# Each time the activists were able to obtain media coverage of the plight of the forest at the hands of the Corporate Defendants, the Corporate Defendants understood they obtained an economic benefit. They understood that as the public grew to appreciate the uniqueness and esthetic value of these Forests -- coupled with the activists? assertion that Defendants would destroy them unless stopped -- the value grew. Thus, the activists, without their knowledge, served a valuable economic asset to the Defendants, and, although Defendants may not have liked them, their presence was certainly tolerated, and in fact, in some manner encouraged.
# In August of 1998, the United States and the State of California agreed to pay almost 500 million dollars for a tiny portion of the Corporate Defendants? property in order to save some of the old-growth redwoods. This tiny portion of property is commonly referred to as the "Headwaters Grove" and several ?lesser groves.? The sale price agreed to was far in excess of fair market value and substantially more than would have been obtained without Defendants? exploitation of the activists. After the price for the sale of the Headwaters Grove was successfully negotiated with California and federal officials, the Corporate Defendants no longer perceived an economic benefit in the presence of the activists and such would not be tolerated. However, the decade-old controversy still remained. The long stewing frustration and violence that the years of protest and exploitation had engendered was about to erupt.
Semp,
Thanks for the recap of what I already knew. If you would like to tell me about my little league career please don't hesitate.
I am fully aware of the situation at pacific Lumber and need no re-schooling. Your opinions, at times, fall short of truth, but they are still valid statements. Why were they addressed to me though? I have not denied anything that occured in the past.
While the past can not be ignored, progress will occur by looking to the future.
One question though. David went downhill before he was killed. He saw that the situation was dangerous and went to where it was safe. Why did someone convince him to go back up? He could have still been alive.
Peace and progress
Thanks for the recap of what I already knew. If you would like to tell me about my little league career please don't hesitate.
I am fully aware of the situation at pacific Lumber and need no re-schooling. Your opinions, at times, fall short of truth, but they are still valid statements. Why were they addressed to me though? I have not denied anything that occured in the past.
While the past can not be ignored, progress will occur by looking to the future.
One question though. David went downhill before he was killed. He saw that the situation was dangerous and went to where it was safe. Why did someone convince him to go back up? He could have still been alive.
Peace and progress
well my last posting was fact. they didn't fall short on anything..... here let's rehash some post death conduct.....nice chatting with you mr. bettis....... PS..we've allowed 97% of the old growth to be cut...when you folks going to comprimise? Mendocino Redwood Co. has given into cutting above a certain DBH.. why isn't pl taking the lead in that aspect... chucky got your scibbies in a bundle?
# Within minutes of Nathan?s death, managerial agents of the Corporate Defendants were at the death scene and in control of it. These individuals were all experienced woods workers who were readily able to discern the basic facts. In fact, Defendants, not police authorities, allegedly caused Ammons to have a blood test. Defendants immediately required both Ammons and Reback to report to company headquarters without giving any statement to the police authorities.
# Despite such unfettered access to the death scene, and to the only people in control of the instrumentalities of Nathan?s death, Defendants intentionally and with malice, refused to release true and accurate information. Instead, they engaged in a deliberate and systematic attempt to cover up and conceal their wrongdoing leading to Nathan?s death. Defendants attempted to intentionally misinform and conceal true information from the police, the general public, the media, and Nathan's surviving family members.
# Within hours of Nathan's death and prior to their knowledge that portions of the events were videotaped, Defendants falsely informed members of the media that they had no knowledge that any activists were in the area at all that day. Furthermore, they knowingly and falsely stated that they did not discover that Nathan had been killed until a substantial amount of time after the death. Defendants also falsely stated they had been engaged in legal timber falling operations and that they and the individuals who cut the tree that killed Nathan were at all times taking reasonable safety precautions and complying with the law.
# Defendants were aware, at the time that these statements were made, that these statements were false, reckless, and calculated to confuse or mislead the media, members of the public, and Nathan's family members, in particular Plaintiffs herein. Defendants made such knowingly false statements as part of an effort to discourage meaningful investigation into Nathan?s death. Additionally, Defendants disseminated this false and misleading information to inflict emotional distress on Nathan's surviving family members, in part because they hoped to discourage Plaintiffs from pursuing legal action.
# Almost immediately upon learning of their son's death, Plaintiffs, in particular Mrs. Allsbrooks, attempted to discern the cause and circumstances of their only son's death. Defendants? attempts to cover-up or conceal their wrongdoing caused needless additional suffering to Nathan?s aggrieved parents.
# Following Nathan's death and the subsequent release of the videotape of Ammons? conduct in the media, Defendants ratified and publicly approved the conduct of its employees and agents that resulted in Nathan?s death. Defendant Campbell, in his individual and professional capacity, has stated publicly and repeatedly that when faced with similar conditions he could understand and accept the type of behavior that the videotape of Ammons revealed. In so doing, Defendants have established, by conduct, that this type of behavior is acceptable.
# Defendants have engaged in an offensive campaign to discredit the activities of Nathan while condoning the conduct of Ammons, Reback, and their agents and their employees with full knowledge of the susceptibility of Mrs. Allsbrooks' distressed emotional state due to the death of her only son. Among other activities contributing to the post-death trauma of Mrs. Allsbrooks, Campbell repeatedly and publicly stated that he would have behaved the same as Ammons on the day when Nathan was killed.
# On several occasions subsequent to her son's death, Mrs. Allsbrooks has personally contacted Campbell regarding concerns she has had for the safety of activists. On all occasions, Defendant Campbell has falsely assured her that Defendants were acting in the best interest and for the safety of the activists when he knew the opposite to be true. In making such false statements, Defendants knew or should have known to a substantial certainty that Mrs. Allsbrooks would suffer extreme emotional distress upon learning the true facts.
# Amazingly, despite the fact that Ammons' threats were captured on video and that Ammons told investigators that he would "beat" the next activist within an inch of his life, the Corporate Defendants have never disciplined Ammons. In fact, the Corporate Defendants have to this date defended Ammons? actions. To this date, there has been no effort on the part of the Corporate Defendants to institute any policy and/or procedure whereby the chance of this tragic death occurring again will be minimized.
# Within minutes of Nathan?s death, managerial agents of the Corporate Defendants were at the death scene and in control of it. These individuals were all experienced woods workers who were readily able to discern the basic facts. In fact, Defendants, not police authorities, allegedly caused Ammons to have a blood test. Defendants immediately required both Ammons and Reback to report to company headquarters without giving any statement to the police authorities.
# Despite such unfettered access to the death scene, and to the only people in control of the instrumentalities of Nathan?s death, Defendants intentionally and with malice, refused to release true and accurate information. Instead, they engaged in a deliberate and systematic attempt to cover up and conceal their wrongdoing leading to Nathan?s death. Defendants attempted to intentionally misinform and conceal true information from the police, the general public, the media, and Nathan's surviving family members.
# Within hours of Nathan's death and prior to their knowledge that portions of the events were videotaped, Defendants falsely informed members of the media that they had no knowledge that any activists were in the area at all that day. Furthermore, they knowingly and falsely stated that they did not discover that Nathan had been killed until a substantial amount of time after the death. Defendants also falsely stated they had been engaged in legal timber falling operations and that they and the individuals who cut the tree that killed Nathan were at all times taking reasonable safety precautions and complying with the law.
# Defendants were aware, at the time that these statements were made, that these statements were false, reckless, and calculated to confuse or mislead the media, members of the public, and Nathan's family members, in particular Plaintiffs herein. Defendants made such knowingly false statements as part of an effort to discourage meaningful investigation into Nathan?s death. Additionally, Defendants disseminated this false and misleading information to inflict emotional distress on Nathan's surviving family members, in part because they hoped to discourage Plaintiffs from pursuing legal action.
# Almost immediately upon learning of their son's death, Plaintiffs, in particular Mrs. Allsbrooks, attempted to discern the cause and circumstances of their only son's death. Defendants? attempts to cover-up or conceal their wrongdoing caused needless additional suffering to Nathan?s aggrieved parents.
# Following Nathan's death and the subsequent release of the videotape of Ammons? conduct in the media, Defendants ratified and publicly approved the conduct of its employees and agents that resulted in Nathan?s death. Defendant Campbell, in his individual and professional capacity, has stated publicly and repeatedly that when faced with similar conditions he could understand and accept the type of behavior that the videotape of Ammons revealed. In so doing, Defendants have established, by conduct, that this type of behavior is acceptable.
# Defendants have engaged in an offensive campaign to discredit the activities of Nathan while condoning the conduct of Ammons, Reback, and their agents and their employees with full knowledge of the susceptibility of Mrs. Allsbrooks' distressed emotional state due to the death of her only son. Among other activities contributing to the post-death trauma of Mrs. Allsbrooks, Campbell repeatedly and publicly stated that he would have behaved the same as Ammons on the day when Nathan was killed.
# On several occasions subsequent to her son's death, Mrs. Allsbrooks has personally contacted Campbell regarding concerns she has had for the safety of activists. On all occasions, Defendant Campbell has falsely assured her that Defendants were acting in the best interest and for the safety of the activists when he knew the opposite to be true. In making such false statements, Defendants knew or should have known to a substantial certainty that Mrs. Allsbrooks would suffer extreme emotional distress upon learning the true facts.
# Amazingly, despite the fact that Ammons' threats were captured on video and that Ammons told investigators that he would "beat" the next activist within an inch of his life, the Corporate Defendants have never disciplined Ammons. In fact, the Corporate Defendants have to this date defended Ammons? actions. To this date, there has been no effort on the part of the Corporate Defendants to institute any policy and/or procedure whereby the chance of this tragic death occurring again will be minimized.
as to what you inquire why it is that david was downhill and then went back? i am unsure of what it is your talking about. ammons lied in wait for the activists to finish with their circle, then rhett hammered in the wedge and ammons aimed the tree at the group of protesters. ammons and rhett murdered him. FACT.
FACT...PL knew activists where out there and you choose to send your most hot headest logger to that thp. a concisious decision on management part. it was know ammons wanted to fuck an EF!er and bag one of em. Those where statements he made prior to the incident and you folks knew it. ask campbell about the drink he bought darryl in sac when the headwaters scam was going through... unable to control his loggers................. hummmmmm
FACT...PL knew activists where out there and you choose to send your most hot headest logger to that thp. a concisious decision on management part. it was know ammons wanted to fuck an EF!er and bag one of em. Those where statements he made prior to the incident and you folks knew it. ask campbell about the drink he bought darryl in sac when the headwaters scam was going through... unable to control his loggers................. hummmmmm
Again stating things already known. Save that part about Dickie B. While I imagine the misidentification was not an insult, I am afraid it was a mistake. I am much taller than your guess is.
Much of what you said was fact. I did not deny that. The real point I was making is that you are rehashing, and dully so. Do not assume ignorance. Let is bring itself out and then correct it.
Peace and progress
Much of what you said was fact. I did not deny that. The real point I was making is that you are rehashing, and dully so. Do not assume ignorance. Let is bring itself out and then correct it.
Peace and progress
It is not a fact that a murder occured. Facts must be proven, not just implied. I am sure that you beleive it was a murder. But that doesn't make it a fact. In a similar fashion, it is not a fact to question the "reasonable measures" that a company may take.
From what I have been able to deduce, D.C. went down the hill to avoid trouble earlier in the day. He was later convinced to return to the area. If that is untrue, just say so.
I choose to not engage in a war of words. I am just trying to clear things up. Your distaste for PL is evident, but that should not prevent a considerate conversation.
What have you about today? John Campbell doesn't run things anymore. It has been four years since the tragic events, and while we need not forget, I hope we can move on.
Peace and Progress
From what I have been able to deduce, D.C. went down the hill to avoid trouble earlier in the day. He was later convinced to return to the area. If that is untrue, just say so.
I choose to not engage in a war of words. I am just trying to clear things up. Your distaste for PL is evident, but that should not prevent a considerate conversation.
What have you about today? John Campbell doesn't run things anymore. It has been four years since the tragic events, and while we need not forget, I hope we can move on.
Peace and Progress
I don't believe Nathan went downhil and then returned. He went up with the group and remained up there with the rest of them. I am aware another in that group left the area once Ammons started throwing rocks at the group, but it's my understanding Nathan never left the mtn. Am not sure what your talking about him leaving and then returning.
When is your company going to follow the lead of MRC and stop logging anceint trees? Set a DBH size and stick with it. Put those off limits. I mean really, the company benefits from those seeds trees producing offspring for future generations to harvest. Or is it true the company is still financing a huge debt Hurwitz incurred and your cut rate is based on the interest debt, not what the land is willing to provide?
FACT....Mr. Farmer and Juan Freeman botched the murder investigation. Fact..Ammmons murdered David. The evidence is in the file, but because it settled out of court it will be debating to eternity.
When is your company going to follow the lead of MRC and stop logging anceint trees? Set a DBH size and stick with it. Put those off limits. I mean really, the company benefits from those seeds trees producing offspring for future generations to harvest. Or is it true the company is still financing a huge debt Hurwitz incurred and your cut rate is based on the interest debt, not what the land is willing to provide?
FACT....Mr. Farmer and Juan Freeman botched the murder investigation. Fact..Ammmons murdered David. The evidence is in the file, but because it settled out of court it will be debating to eternity.
Seedtree silviculture is not designed for redwoods. They are not prolific seeders, regardless of age. Your argument stands up better with fir. Either way stocking is not a major issue for PL. Arbitrary guidelines for forestry (especially those motivated politically) are not always the best way to manage land. It is obviously not your preferrence to cut larger trees, but that does not make it wrong. You are entitled to your land ethic, as are we.
In addition, an unproven fact is a theory. Whether it is correct or not is inconsequential. It must be proven and accepted. Your theory has not been either. Someday it may. But not yet.
Peace and progress
In addition, an unproven fact is a theory. Whether it is correct or not is inconsequential. It must be proven and accepted. Your theory has not been either. Someday it may. But not yet.
Peace and progress
MRC's ancient old growth lands have already been converted to second and third growth stands, so it is relatively easy for them to step a policy of no old growth logging…TRUTH. Redwoods do not make good seed trees, they regenerate better by sprouting…FACT.
FACT…YOUR last statements are opinions.
FACT…YOUR last statements are opinions.
can you point me to a scientific paper which garners you the information that you speak of?
PS...mr bettis, is it true your basing your board feet on hurwitz's debt?
PS...mr bettis, is it true your basing your board feet on hurwitz's debt?
“Natural regeneration of redwood from seed is limited because of three factors. First, the quantity of seed produced is variable among trees and stands, with some trees failing to produce any seed at all unless considerable disturbance occurs at their base (Muelder and Hansend, 1961). Second, redwood seed has characteristically low viability (less than 10 percent). Third, on undisturbed sites, redwood germinates are especially susceptible to infection by damping-off and Botrytis fungus (Hepting, 1971). No redwood reproduction is found in these undisturbed stands. However, freshly deposited silt from flooding on alluvial flats provides a medium that is relatively free of soil pathogens, permitting successful establishment of natural redwood regeneration.”
All this information is found in the third edition of Regional Silviculture of The United States.
The book also discusses how silt may actually benefit redwood stands in case you feel like informing yourself further on forestry issues. There are numerous other forestry books that are available to cross check any of this information or you may try enrolling yourself in a forestry class to better your knowledge.
P.S. Who is this Betis individual you speak of? If you wish to make accusations of who I am perhaps I should make some on who you may be…Ms. Hill, Ms. Bari, Mr. Ed, God, Hitler???
All this information is found in the third edition of Regional Silviculture of The United States.
The book also discusses how silt may actually benefit redwood stands in case you feel like informing yourself further on forestry issues. There are numerous other forestry books that are available to cross check any of this information or you may try enrolling yourself in a forestry class to better your knowledge.
P.S. Who is this Betis individual you speak of? If you wish to make accusations of who I am perhaps I should make some on who you may be…Ms. Hill, Ms. Bari, Mr. Ed, God, Hitler???
Bull buck, now there's a good response. polite and to the point. I'll look into it when i get a chance. And yes, maybe someday when i'm not taking other classes i'll take some more forestry classes, soil science or plant biology classes offered at HSU.
as far as mr bettis, was inquiring whether he was responding as lymatra dispear, wasn't neccessarily directed at you. lymantra claims he is much taller than bettis. just trying to get a handle on who at pl is responding to these postings is all.
So, what's the solution? It is tiring saying your logging practices in humboldt suck. if a community based approach could be developed, we all might win. instead, we throw shit back and forth at each other and no one wins. and yes, logging trees older than the state of california is wrong in my opinion. we make house on the historical record older than a certain age, why not ancient trees. how does the environmental community work with a company which has destroyed the watersheds throughout the county?
how does the community come together and create proactive solutions?
as far as mr bettis, was inquiring whether he was responding as lymatra dispear, wasn't neccessarily directed at you. lymantra claims he is much taller than bettis. just trying to get a handle on who at pl is responding to these postings is all.
So, what's the solution? It is tiring saying your logging practices in humboldt suck. if a community based approach could be developed, we all might win. instead, we throw shit back and forth at each other and no one wins. and yes, logging trees older than the state of california is wrong in my opinion. we make house on the historical record older than a certain age, why not ancient trees. how does the environmental community work with a company which has destroyed the watersheds throughout the county?
how does the community come together and create proactive solutions?
Those are some damn good questions semp.
I wish I had the answers to all of them.
I am optimistic though. The one thing I suggest is the word comprimise. I understand that is a vague term, but I am at a lack for another. I can not speak for PL. I have no idea what level of negociation they are willing to go to at this stage. But no side will win this one sided.
As for Mr. Bettis, I am sure he can fight his battles on his own without me.
Peace and progress.
I wish I had the answers to all of them.
I am optimistic though. The one thing I suggest is the word comprimise. I understand that is a vague term, but I am at a lack for another. I can not speak for PL. I have no idea what level of negociation they are willing to go to at this stage. But no side will win this one sided.
As for Mr. Bettis, I am sure he can fight his battles on his own without me.
Peace and progress.
well, i'm told, pl monitors these websites fairly frequently. why don't they chime in on the conversation?
it's my understanding they have discussed possible community solutions in closed door sessions with mattole residents. but realistically, it'll take comprimise on their side and some straight up honesty. they have a business plan, and they publically stated in a mtg in redway, they intend to cut all their old growth here real soon and then become a second growth company. for those who don't believe they have the natural right to cut the ancient trees(not just them, but anyone), what are folks to do. sit back and watch this generation take em all? yes their are some protected, but 97% of them are already gone. read the comment above, isn't 97% of the ancient ones enough? where are we to compromise at this point?
providing a liveable planet for seven generations into the future is not compromisable. also, the civil suits aren't being a deterent, just a thorn in the activist sides. most whom have been sued, have no money to give, so what's that point. can some compromise exist when your under litigation and maxxam co. is asking for half million dollar judgements for simple trespass? there are now three civil suits, with those in place, it's real hard to get the activists to come near the middle of the road, instead of maintaining a steadfast, your wrong for taking the last of the ancient forest. the mattole used to be an intact ancient forest, that should have been set aside. if logging is so sustainable, why the need to trash these ancient forested areas? the logic comes and goes, the shit flys back and forth, yet it's pl who is paying off a debt for someone who doesn't even contribute to this community. pl workers do, but that greedy sucker in houston has only hurt this community, beginning with when he liquidated the workers pension fund in 86'. how much more comprimise does it take?
wondering...................
it's my understanding they have discussed possible community solutions in closed door sessions with mattole residents. but realistically, it'll take comprimise on their side and some straight up honesty. they have a business plan, and they publically stated in a mtg in redway, they intend to cut all their old growth here real soon and then become a second growth company. for those who don't believe they have the natural right to cut the ancient trees(not just them, but anyone), what are folks to do. sit back and watch this generation take em all? yes their are some protected, but 97% of them are already gone. read the comment above, isn't 97% of the ancient ones enough? where are we to compromise at this point?
providing a liveable planet for seven generations into the future is not compromisable. also, the civil suits aren't being a deterent, just a thorn in the activist sides. most whom have been sued, have no money to give, so what's that point. can some compromise exist when your under litigation and maxxam co. is asking for half million dollar judgements for simple trespass? there are now three civil suits, with those in place, it's real hard to get the activists to come near the middle of the road, instead of maintaining a steadfast, your wrong for taking the last of the ancient forest. the mattole used to be an intact ancient forest, that should have been set aside. if logging is so sustainable, why the need to trash these ancient forested areas? the logic comes and goes, the shit flys back and forth, yet it's pl who is paying off a debt for someone who doesn't even contribute to this community. pl workers do, but that greedy sucker in houston has only hurt this community, beginning with when he liquidated the workers pension fund in 86'. how much more comprimise does it take?
wondering...................
Can we keep this conversation on a respectful level?
First off, driving is putting peoples' lives in danger, especially when thousands of innocent lives are getting bombed for the oil under their feet, by the US and other industrialized nations. And then there are the hundreds of thousands of people who die in vehicular accidents every year, along with all the other animals and insects that die as a result of vehicles every day.
Driving is completely unnatural, ultrahazardous, and unsustainable, especially using fossil fuels, yet you do it every day, right?
We emphasize SAFETY in the trees, on the ground, and in all aspects of life...be conscious, take your time, do things right, think about it...this is part of what the revolution is about, and part of the reason why we haven't had many injuries around here, other than those inflicted by PL. We did have a couple people fall a few years ago, and that was because they were not following safety protocol.
Yet how many landslides has PL caused, due to irresponsible logging? Too many to count without extensive mapping...yet PL continues to clearcut and log Old Growth.
The Old Growth are the anchors holding these hillsides up...would you consider it immoral to kill your grandmother? These trees are our elders, they are the Ancient Ones, holding it all together, just like the grandmothers and aunties of tribal societies. People say that these trees are old, and dying, and should be removed to make room for new seedlings, yet would you say that about your grandmother? It shows a fundamental lack of respect for elders and sacredness on this Earth that you would even WANT to cut these trees down, much less file plans to actually do it.
Is it partially because you want to forget about what happened on this land to bring you to the point you're at now? You want to forget the genocide of the indigenous people of this Earth, of the Pacific Northwest of Turtle Island(that's "North America", in case you didn't know), of the Mattole and the Lassik people of the Gypsy Mountain area? You want to forget that all of your so-called "private property" is stolen through murder, rape, and relocation?
So greedy are the European invaders, and the fact that PL is still falling trees with people in the area represents yet another broken treaty, the "Forest Peace Alliance."
When are you going to break the cycles of violence and oppression? When are you going to start making up for the bad karma you've accumulated? When are you going to start giving back to the Earth, and to the Mother that made you and gave you Life?
Cutting Old Growth + clearcutting+herbicides+cutting on steep, unstable slopes=landslides=death for millions of life forms=immoral.
All Life is Sacred.
So, are you going to start working with us to save the last of the Old Growth and the last of your jobs, or are you going to link up with the Neo-Nazi Republican regime, push for Homeland Security funding, and try to get us pinned as "terrorists"? Are you going to feed into Bush's push for world domination, or are you going to resist with us, and work to prevent war, at home and abroad. Remember, we seek peace, in all aspects of Life. We did not ask to be born into these insane times, and we will not be sucked in by the Generican war machine, or the lies of corporate militant-industrial society. See that we are the good people of this Earth, and that we only want what is best for all Life.
Learn to appreciate us, to love us...we are your children.
We are the children that your society has created, although we didn't turn out how you had planned.
We will not be sedated, nor bribed.
Wake up and take your life back! Open your third eye and see the truth! Clean out the cobwebs, and see with REAL-EYES, when you realize that we must have truly sustainable forestry and global demilitarization.
Gypsy was murdered, and the shitstem is completely corrupt, which is why the lies were able to float...we all know what floats...yet the truth runs deeper, like the roots, and will persists through time, when the lies are all exposed and the tales are told. The truth shall be known...what part will you have played?
It's not theory, it's the TRUTH...the intention, the pre-mediation, is caught on video. When you tell someone you're going to kill them, that's assault, and then, when you go through the actions that lead to another person's death, willingly and knowingly, then it's premeditated murder. It's voluntary manslaughter, at the very least.
Gypsy did not go back down, he was there the whole time...you may be referring to the fact that the woman who was up there, as the tree was falling, began to run up the hillside, looked back, saw Gypsy NOT running, ran back to him, told him to run up, and he did not run, chosing to hold his ground, like the true Gentle Warrior, and then she let go of his arm, ran up herself, just barely running above where the tree hit, broke, rolled down the hill a few feet, and crushed Gypsy.
He stood his ground because he was brave, and that deserves to be Honored.
And now you want to cut Aradia, which would dishonor you(Maxxam/PL) more than anyone. It would be a great disrespect towards Gypsy if you cut Aradia, and is already a mark against your Dignity that you have even marked it for death. I suggest that you reclaim at least a portion of your Honor by making Aradia and Gypsy Mountain part of the Gypsy Memorial. Otherwise you will be forever Dishonored & Shamed, which, of course, I'm sure you don't want.
Do what is Right....
First off, driving is putting peoples' lives in danger, especially when thousands of innocent lives are getting bombed for the oil under their feet, by the US and other industrialized nations. And then there are the hundreds of thousands of people who die in vehicular accidents every year, along with all the other animals and insects that die as a result of vehicles every day.
Driving is completely unnatural, ultrahazardous, and unsustainable, especially using fossil fuels, yet you do it every day, right?
We emphasize SAFETY in the trees, on the ground, and in all aspects of life...be conscious, take your time, do things right, think about it...this is part of what the revolution is about, and part of the reason why we haven't had many injuries around here, other than those inflicted by PL. We did have a couple people fall a few years ago, and that was because they were not following safety protocol.
Yet how many landslides has PL caused, due to irresponsible logging? Too many to count without extensive mapping...yet PL continues to clearcut and log Old Growth.
The Old Growth are the anchors holding these hillsides up...would you consider it immoral to kill your grandmother? These trees are our elders, they are the Ancient Ones, holding it all together, just like the grandmothers and aunties of tribal societies. People say that these trees are old, and dying, and should be removed to make room for new seedlings, yet would you say that about your grandmother? It shows a fundamental lack of respect for elders and sacredness on this Earth that you would even WANT to cut these trees down, much less file plans to actually do it.
Is it partially because you want to forget about what happened on this land to bring you to the point you're at now? You want to forget the genocide of the indigenous people of this Earth, of the Pacific Northwest of Turtle Island(that's "North America", in case you didn't know), of the Mattole and the Lassik people of the Gypsy Mountain area? You want to forget that all of your so-called "private property" is stolen through murder, rape, and relocation?
So greedy are the European invaders, and the fact that PL is still falling trees with people in the area represents yet another broken treaty, the "Forest Peace Alliance."
When are you going to break the cycles of violence and oppression? When are you going to start making up for the bad karma you've accumulated? When are you going to start giving back to the Earth, and to the Mother that made you and gave you Life?
Cutting Old Growth + clearcutting+herbicides+cutting on steep, unstable slopes=landslides=death for millions of life forms=immoral.
All Life is Sacred.
So, are you going to start working with us to save the last of the Old Growth and the last of your jobs, or are you going to link up with the Neo-Nazi Republican regime, push for Homeland Security funding, and try to get us pinned as "terrorists"? Are you going to feed into Bush's push for world domination, or are you going to resist with us, and work to prevent war, at home and abroad. Remember, we seek peace, in all aspects of Life. We did not ask to be born into these insane times, and we will not be sucked in by the Generican war machine, or the lies of corporate militant-industrial society. See that we are the good people of this Earth, and that we only want what is best for all Life.
Learn to appreciate us, to love us...we are your children.
We are the children that your society has created, although we didn't turn out how you had planned.
We will not be sedated, nor bribed.
Wake up and take your life back! Open your third eye and see the truth! Clean out the cobwebs, and see with REAL-EYES, when you realize that we must have truly sustainable forestry and global demilitarization.
Gypsy was murdered, and the shitstem is completely corrupt, which is why the lies were able to float...we all know what floats...yet the truth runs deeper, like the roots, and will persists through time, when the lies are all exposed and the tales are told. The truth shall be known...what part will you have played?
It's not theory, it's the TRUTH...the intention, the pre-mediation, is caught on video. When you tell someone you're going to kill them, that's assault, and then, when you go through the actions that lead to another person's death, willingly and knowingly, then it's premeditated murder. It's voluntary manslaughter, at the very least.
Gypsy did not go back down, he was there the whole time...you may be referring to the fact that the woman who was up there, as the tree was falling, began to run up the hillside, looked back, saw Gypsy NOT running, ran back to him, told him to run up, and he did not run, chosing to hold his ground, like the true Gentle Warrior, and then she let go of his arm, ran up herself, just barely running above where the tree hit, broke, rolled down the hill a few feet, and crushed Gypsy.
He stood his ground because he was brave, and that deserves to be Honored.
And now you want to cut Aradia, which would dishonor you(Maxxam/PL) more than anyone. It would be a great disrespect towards Gypsy if you cut Aradia, and is already a mark against your Dignity that you have even marked it for death. I suggest that you reclaim at least a portion of your Honor by making Aradia and Gypsy Mountain part of the Gypsy Memorial. Otherwise you will be forever Dishonored & Shamed, which, of course, I'm sure you don't want.
Do what is Right....
If he didn't run out of the way of a falling tree, then he deserves the Darwin Award.
I don't recall posting anything disrespectful of David Chain. My comment refered to a story I heard of Micheal Avkoff(spelling). I had heard that David went down the hill (possibly another day) because things we getting ugly and Michael convinced him to go back. Is this a true story? No disrespect intended.
There is no use or need for passing judgement on those that you disagree with. I was unaware that you were capable of policing Karma, but I will thank you to cease from keeping tabs on mine. Understand that you are no one's intellectual or moral superior. You are just a man (of European descent Jason Wilson) absolutely positive that you are correct. But are you prepared to change your mind if anything might prove you wrong? Does your dogma leave room for an open mind, or just blind faith?
As far as safety, your tree sitters are seen without safety lines consistantly. They do not where helmets or other protective gear. When confronted by a climber, two sitters went to dangerous measures to avoid capture by climbing to the top of their tree. Safety does not lie in good karma. It is not about respecting the earth. It is about taking the necessary precautions to aviod injury or death.
Peace and progress
There is no use or need for passing judgement on those that you disagree with. I was unaware that you were capable of policing Karma, but I will thank you to cease from keeping tabs on mine. Understand that you are no one's intellectual or moral superior. You are just a man (of European descent Jason Wilson) absolutely positive that you are correct. But are you prepared to change your mind if anything might prove you wrong? Does your dogma leave room for an open mind, or just blind faith?
As far as safety, your tree sitters are seen without safety lines consistantly. They do not where helmets or other protective gear. When confronted by a climber, two sitters went to dangerous measures to avoid capture by climbing to the top of their tree. Safety does not lie in good karma. It is not about respecting the earth. It is about taking the necessary precautions to aviod injury or death.
Peace and progress
Shunka,
Please abandon your references to Nazis in furthur postings. The Ideologies held by EF are more similar to the National Socailist doctrine than any conservative contemporary party is. The Nazis believed that they knew what was best for the Earth. They strictly regulated natural resource management. They did not believe in private property, thinking that all resources should be managed (or preserved) for the good of the state. They practiced organic farming and many (including hitler) were vegetarians. They wanted to restore earth to its "Natural" state similar to the way you do.
In addition, they beleived in the concept of the "Uberman." They beleived that they could see through the false rules of society and could break those rules to attain their agenda. They figured that by breaking these rules, they could lift society to a new level of consciousness and understanding. So when you break laws to attain your "revolution" you are following a long line of like minded folks. Just because you are ignorant of history does not allow you to abuse it.
If any group represents nazis philosophically ,it is yours.
Please abandon your references to Nazis in furthur postings. The Ideologies held by EF are more similar to the National Socailist doctrine than any conservative contemporary party is. The Nazis believed that they knew what was best for the Earth. They strictly regulated natural resource management. They did not believe in private property, thinking that all resources should be managed (or preserved) for the good of the state. They practiced organic farming and many (including hitler) were vegetarians. They wanted to restore earth to its "Natural" state similar to the way you do.
In addition, they beleived in the concept of the "Uberman." They beleived that they could see through the false rules of society and could break those rules to attain their agenda. They figured that by breaking these rules, they could lift society to a new level of consciousness and understanding. So when you break laws to attain your "revolution" you are following a long line of like minded folks. Just because you are ignorant of history does not allow you to abuse it.
If any group represents nazis philosophically ,it is yours.
You are truly twisted, and it is truly sad.
Unlike the Nazis, Earth First! has a non-violence code.
Much like the Nazis, whom Prescott Bush and his cronies supported, financially and with technology, the US government murdered MANY of the indigenous people of this land, and rounded the rest up into reservations(concentration camps), and then stole their land, which you now call "private property."
And now you commit genocide in the forest, systematically destroying and then enslaving Mother Earth, all for greed.
By standing on the flimsy grounds of "private property," you are furthering that genocide, and basing your arguments on that genocide.
The Earth belongs to no one, it is for all of us to share.
I'm not any kind of police, karmic nor otherwise...the karma will come to you, with or without me...I'm just part of the force of people rising up against the lies of corporate-industrial-militant-prison society.
I have seen through the lies, and have been gifted with many truths, through many experiences, and no one can take that away from me, ever.
And we do stand a moral highground when we say that it's wrong to bomb people, and that it's wrong to fall trees at people, and that it's right to help people, and to respect Life and Death, and that it's better to talk out our differences than to fight over them.
Are you ready to climb that holy mountain to the moral highground? It's there for all of us to climb, if you're willing to put forth the effort. No one ever said that it would be easy, yet the rewards are out of this world.
You really expose yourself when you point your finger, you know...trying to compare a non-violent movement based in anarchy with a genocidal government, while you continue to eco-cidally clear-cut, is about as rediculous as it gets, although I'm sure you'll do your best to prove me wrong on that.
"Shunka" is part of the name that I was given on the Cheyenne River Lakota Reservation, South Dakota, and I use it as a symbol of my dedication to the indigenous people of this Earth, of which I am also one.
There is nothing in Corporate Generican society that I would pledge my allegiance to, and I have already committed my life to following the Red Road.
It is part of Generica's karma that MANY young people are spending LOTS of time with the native people, in sweat lodges, at Yucca Mountain, at Big Mountain, on various reservations, in the tipi...indigenous culture is coming back, in a big way, and is reminding people of where we are, in space and in time, and how we got to where we are. MANY people are seeing through the illusion and SOON the patriarchy will lose its power, and will be replaced with a more equalitarian ethic, and Life will be RESPECTED.
The revolution is global, so you had better bloom before you wither...you don't want to get left in the dust, and realize, one day, that the whole world thinks that you're a corporate raider, and represent the greedy Generican culture, as the epitome of what went wrong on this land, do you?
If you feel the gavell coming down, it's not from me....
Save Aradia...
Unlike the Nazis, Earth First! has a non-violence code.
Much like the Nazis, whom Prescott Bush and his cronies supported, financially and with technology, the US government murdered MANY of the indigenous people of this land, and rounded the rest up into reservations(concentration camps), and then stole their land, which you now call "private property."
And now you commit genocide in the forest, systematically destroying and then enslaving Mother Earth, all for greed.
By standing on the flimsy grounds of "private property," you are furthering that genocide, and basing your arguments on that genocide.
The Earth belongs to no one, it is for all of us to share.
I'm not any kind of police, karmic nor otherwise...the karma will come to you, with or without me...I'm just part of the force of people rising up against the lies of corporate-industrial-militant-prison society.
I have seen through the lies, and have been gifted with many truths, through many experiences, and no one can take that away from me, ever.
And we do stand a moral highground when we say that it's wrong to bomb people, and that it's wrong to fall trees at people, and that it's right to help people, and to respect Life and Death, and that it's better to talk out our differences than to fight over them.
Are you ready to climb that holy mountain to the moral highground? It's there for all of us to climb, if you're willing to put forth the effort. No one ever said that it would be easy, yet the rewards are out of this world.
You really expose yourself when you point your finger, you know...trying to compare a non-violent movement based in anarchy with a genocidal government, while you continue to eco-cidally clear-cut, is about as rediculous as it gets, although I'm sure you'll do your best to prove me wrong on that.
"Shunka" is part of the name that I was given on the Cheyenne River Lakota Reservation, South Dakota, and I use it as a symbol of my dedication to the indigenous people of this Earth, of which I am also one.
There is nothing in Corporate Generican society that I would pledge my allegiance to, and I have already committed my life to following the Red Road.
It is part of Generica's karma that MANY young people are spending LOTS of time with the native people, in sweat lodges, at Yucca Mountain, at Big Mountain, on various reservations, in the tipi...indigenous culture is coming back, in a big way, and is reminding people of where we are, in space and in time, and how we got to where we are. MANY people are seeing through the illusion and SOON the patriarchy will lose its power, and will be replaced with a more equalitarian ethic, and Life will be RESPECTED.
The revolution is global, so you had better bloom before you wither...you don't want to get left in the dust, and realize, one day, that the whole world thinks that you're a corporate raider, and represent the greedy Generican culture, as the epitome of what went wrong on this land, do you?
If you feel the gavell coming down, it's not from me....
Save Aradia...
I am glad the film Dances With Wolves had such an impact on you. I am not a big Costner fan myself. Good luck with the whole Indian thing though. I hope that works out for you. One things though, Ghost Shirts do not count as safety devices.
You began the finger pointing with implications of neo-nazis. I really dislike and disagree with nazi philosophy. Thus, I explained to you that your comments were unfounded. By the way, many of the founders of the Save the Redwoods League were Nazi simpathizers. They even beleived in Eugenics!! Know your history or you will repeat it.
I am wind in his hair. Can't you see that I am your friend? Can't you see that I will always be your friend?
You began the finger pointing with implications of neo-nazis. I really dislike and disagree with nazi philosophy. Thus, I explained to you that your comments were unfounded. By the way, many of the founders of the Save the Redwoods League were Nazi simpathizers. They even beleived in Eugenics!! Know your history or you will repeat it.
I am wind in his hair. Can't you see that I am your friend? Can't you see that I will always be your friend?
Ok there SW,
Are you saying that the only difference between your group and the Nazis is a non violence code? That is a fine line to walk.
As for the non-violence code, even that has been suspect at times. Micheal Evenson suggested it was breached and he is your ally. I recall being in an old EF camp above Swains Flat where I saw an article in the EF Journal explaining how to make a maltov cocktail. I won't go so far as accuse your group of violence, but in a group with no checks or accountabilty, some actions will be questionable.
By the way, your assumptions of my political orientation are way off base, but that won't stop you from saying it again.
Peace and progress.
Are you saying that the only difference between your group and the Nazis is a non violence code? That is a fine line to walk.
As for the non-violence code, even that has been suspect at times. Micheal Evenson suggested it was breached and he is your ally. I recall being in an old EF camp above Swains Flat where I saw an article in the EF Journal explaining how to make a maltov cocktail. I won't go so far as accuse your group of violence, but in a group with no checks or accountabilty, some actions will be questionable.
By the way, your assumptions of my political orientation are way off base, but that won't stop you from saying it again.
Peace and progress.
It doesn't surprise me that someone with a corporate mind, such as you have displayed, would associate real experiences with ceremony and magic with Hollywood, yet this is only your mind, you must remember.
You can try to trivialize it, just as you attempt to trivialize everything that is real, for the sake of the comfort of your corporate reality.
What you will someday realize, hopefully, is that this is real, and the karma of what has been done on this land is coming around, and I know that you're beginning to feel it, too.
The drums are beating, the people are rising up singing, and Babylon will be falling.
What are you going to do when all the trees are cut down, the water and air are poisoned, and everyone is left with frowning faces? Is that what you want for your children? Think about the consequences of your actions, and how many times you've been wrong about the facts, just in this conversation alone.
Think about how that ripples out into your world view, and your view of Earth First! Think about the innocence of your youth, and the things that happened to you along the way to bring you to where you are now.
Is this where you wanted to be when you were a child?
Is this what you wanted for your life?
Open your mind and heart...
You know that Earth First! is nothing like the Nazis, and that, in fact, we are standing up to a neo-Nazi regime right now.
North Coast Earth First! is also not about the industrial machine, as the Nazis were, and many of us would love to see an end to industrial civilization, and does not advocate governments at all, except for self-governing communities, with consensus-based democracy, true democracy, where every person's voice is heard.
This doesn't mean that everyone always gets along all the time, or agrees on everything, because we're all still people, and sometimes people can't get along and end up spending time with different circles of people, because of personality conflicts, yet we are still unified in our effort to change this grim reality that we were born into, so that things can be different for us as adults, and for our children, and our children's children, etc.
We just want people to learn how to share the Earth, how to respect the Earth, to stop clear-cutting, strip mining, and cluster bombing her, and to learn to work out our differences non-violently.
We have to find common ground to stand on.
Selective cut forestry is a reality, and that doesn't mean selecting the biggest, fattest trees left on Earth.
Look into Yon Iris and the example he set.
I have done Restoration Forestry, so I know that it's a reality.
Maxxam/PL should hire laid-off loggers to do restoration work, since there's SO MUCH to be done.
Selective cut, maintaining a multi-layered canopy throughout, is necessary for bringing peace between the tree people and the timber industry.
Banning herbicides is another necessary condition.
Saving the last of the Old Growth is another.
And preserving and protecting the steep slopes is another.
If those things were done, locally, then Hurwitz would probably just sell the company, because it wouldn't be feeding his sickness the same way.
We need to cut Maxxam off, locally.
We can do things right, and Hurwitz can take a hike, and go heal, in the forest...
Rise up!
You can try to trivialize it, just as you attempt to trivialize everything that is real, for the sake of the comfort of your corporate reality.
What you will someday realize, hopefully, is that this is real, and the karma of what has been done on this land is coming around, and I know that you're beginning to feel it, too.
The drums are beating, the people are rising up singing, and Babylon will be falling.
What are you going to do when all the trees are cut down, the water and air are poisoned, and everyone is left with frowning faces? Is that what you want for your children? Think about the consequences of your actions, and how many times you've been wrong about the facts, just in this conversation alone.
Think about how that ripples out into your world view, and your view of Earth First! Think about the innocence of your youth, and the things that happened to you along the way to bring you to where you are now.
Is this where you wanted to be when you were a child?
Is this what you wanted for your life?
Open your mind and heart...
You know that Earth First! is nothing like the Nazis, and that, in fact, we are standing up to a neo-Nazi regime right now.
North Coast Earth First! is also not about the industrial machine, as the Nazis were, and many of us would love to see an end to industrial civilization, and does not advocate governments at all, except for self-governing communities, with consensus-based democracy, true democracy, where every person's voice is heard.
This doesn't mean that everyone always gets along all the time, or agrees on everything, because we're all still people, and sometimes people can't get along and end up spending time with different circles of people, because of personality conflicts, yet we are still unified in our effort to change this grim reality that we were born into, so that things can be different for us as adults, and for our children, and our children's children, etc.
We just want people to learn how to share the Earth, how to respect the Earth, to stop clear-cutting, strip mining, and cluster bombing her, and to learn to work out our differences non-violently.
We have to find common ground to stand on.
Selective cut forestry is a reality, and that doesn't mean selecting the biggest, fattest trees left on Earth.
Look into Yon Iris and the example he set.
I have done Restoration Forestry, so I know that it's a reality.
Maxxam/PL should hire laid-off loggers to do restoration work, since there's SO MUCH to be done.
Selective cut, maintaining a multi-layered canopy throughout, is necessary for bringing peace between the tree people and the timber industry.
Banning herbicides is another necessary condition.
Saving the last of the Old Growth is another.
And preserving and protecting the steep slopes is another.
If those things were done, locally, then Hurwitz would probably just sell the company, because it wouldn't be feeding his sickness the same way.
We need to cut Maxxam off, locally.
We can do things right, and Hurwitz can take a hike, and go heal, in the forest...
Rise up!
I never said that EF was a bad group because they share many ideologies with the German National Socialist, I just thought you should know the similarities before you continue to throw out the Nazi insult.
Is that your "safety" advice to the treesitters that when climbers are near by and they are at their most vulnerable, that they should remove their clothes? Though sensational and attention grabbing, it is just another step toward reckless selfendangerment. I know that your group has no leaders, but can't someone do something to make protesting as safe as you can?
Some of your postings read as U.S. Army propaganda during the World Wars. UNLCE SHUNKA WANTS YOU!! You never warn recruits of dangers in those postings. Injuries grab headlines don't they? You do everything you can to place yourselves in precarious postions and scream when something happens. You too can help prevent violence, please understand that.
We are all human. We do all make mistakes. But the more dangerous the sitaution we are in, the more costly each mistake gets.
Peace and progress.
Is that your "safety" advice to the treesitters that when climbers are near by and they are at their most vulnerable, that they should remove their clothes? Though sensational and attention grabbing, it is just another step toward reckless selfendangerment. I know that your group has no leaders, but can't someone do something to make protesting as safe as you can?
Some of your postings read as U.S. Army propaganda during the World Wars. UNLCE SHUNKA WANTS YOU!! You never warn recruits of dangers in those postings. Injuries grab headlines don't they? You do everything you can to place yourselves in precarious postions and scream when something happens. You too can help prevent violence, please understand that.
We are all human. We do all make mistakes. But the more dangerous the sitaution we are in, the more costly each mistake gets.
Peace and progress.
People do what inspires them, and, as long as it's within the non-violence code, I have no problem with it.
The people took off their clothes, hoping that the climbers would be less likely to manhandle them that way. Instead, the male climbers were using PAIN COMPLIANCE on the sitters in the tree, and putting their hands between the male and female sitters' legs, to put the harness on them, and the sitters were treated very roughly by the climbers and the cops.
We get abused because corporate society has found a way to treat us as less than human, as Nazi Germany did to the Jews.
Because we try to save the last of the ancient trees left on this planet, we are viewed as criminals, by the narrow-minded.
Because we are trying to slow down the liquidation of this Earth, world-wide, we are called all kinds of names, and treated with violence.
North Coast Earth First! is NOTHING like the Nazi party, so give up that pathetic attempt to turn the tables around on us. Remember, when you point your finger, there are at least three fingers pointing back.
There are many elements of Nazism and Fascism in corporate generica and other industrialized nations.
Many victims grow up to be just like their oppressors. You don't have to be so greedy.
Show some remorse for the man Maxxam/PL murdered, David "Gypsy" Chain. Encourage Maxxam/PL to add Aradia to the Gypsy Memorial.
It would be soooo easy, and would mean soooo much to soooo many people.
Do the right thing.
The people took off their clothes, hoping that the climbers would be less likely to manhandle them that way. Instead, the male climbers were using PAIN COMPLIANCE on the sitters in the tree, and putting their hands between the male and female sitters' legs, to put the harness on them, and the sitters were treated very roughly by the climbers and the cops.
We get abused because corporate society has found a way to treat us as less than human, as Nazi Germany did to the Jews.
Because we try to save the last of the ancient trees left on this planet, we are viewed as criminals, by the narrow-minded.
Because we are trying to slow down the liquidation of this Earth, world-wide, we are called all kinds of names, and treated with violence.
North Coast Earth First! is NOTHING like the Nazi party, so give up that pathetic attempt to turn the tables around on us. Remember, when you point your finger, there are at least three fingers pointing back.
There are many elements of Nazism and Fascism in corporate generica and other industrialized nations.
Many victims grow up to be just like their oppressors. You don't have to be so greedy.
Show some remorse for the man Maxxam/PL murdered, David "Gypsy" Chain. Encourage Maxxam/PL to add Aradia to the Gypsy Memorial.
It would be soooo easy, and would mean soooo much to soooo many people.
Do the right thing.
Oh yeah, your comparison with "Uncle Spam Wants You!" is your mind, once again, which has been molded and twisted to interpret messages through a corporate generican filter, causing you to make synaptic misfires, preventing you from reaching true understanding.
What we are saying is, "The trees need your help."
It's an invitation for liberation, not a militant recruiting campaign. It's only your mind that twists things so....
It's not easy to cleanse your mind of corporate generican thought patterns...people have a lot of mind pollution, and it takes determination and a willingness to heal to truly cleanse your mind, body, and spirit.
"Brainwashing" is another misnomer, just like the HCP, SYP, ITPs, the "conservatives" and "radicals," and "homeland security." What has happened is that people have a build-up of mental and spiritual pollution, fed to them from the day they were born by corporate generica and industrial civilization, and what we need is a TRUE washing of our minds, bodies, and spirits, to PURIFY ourselves of POISONS like greed, racism, sexism, megalomania, materialism, cynicism, overriding negativity, and all other forms of violence.
It feels really good to cleanse yourself...find a sweat lodge a.s.a.p., and you'll see what I mean...it won't happen with just one sweat, though; the sweat is one step along the path of healing, and it can take years to undo what corporate society has done to us.
We're all still working on healing...join the healing, while you still have a chance.
One of the saddest things I can think of is for someone to go their whole lives believing the lies of corporate-industrial-militant society.
Clear your vision while you still have the opportunity to actualize change in your life.
You know the truth, down deep, which is why you continue to deny it so vehemently...heal yourself.
Do you really want to go down in history as one of the murderers of the last of the ancient old growth forests?
How does that make you feel?
What we are saying is, "The trees need your help."
It's an invitation for liberation, not a militant recruiting campaign. It's only your mind that twists things so....
It's not easy to cleanse your mind of corporate generican thought patterns...people have a lot of mind pollution, and it takes determination and a willingness to heal to truly cleanse your mind, body, and spirit.
"Brainwashing" is another misnomer, just like the HCP, SYP, ITPs, the "conservatives" and "radicals," and "homeland security." What has happened is that people have a build-up of mental and spiritual pollution, fed to them from the day they were born by corporate generica and industrial civilization, and what we need is a TRUE washing of our minds, bodies, and spirits, to PURIFY ourselves of POISONS like greed, racism, sexism, megalomania, materialism, cynicism, overriding negativity, and all other forms of violence.
It feels really good to cleanse yourself...find a sweat lodge a.s.a.p., and you'll see what I mean...it won't happen with just one sweat, though; the sweat is one step along the path of healing, and it can take years to undo what corporate society has done to us.
We're all still working on healing...join the healing, while you still have a chance.
One of the saddest things I can think of is for someone to go their whole lives believing the lies of corporate-industrial-militant society.
Clear your vision while you still have the opportunity to actualize change in your life.
You know the truth, down deep, which is why you continue to deny it so vehemently...heal yourself.
Do you really want to go down in history as one of the murderers of the last of the ancient old growth forests?
How does that make you feel?
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