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Indybay Feature

The full story of the ethnic cleasing of Jews in the Arab countries.

by Joe
The full story of the ethnic cleasing of Jews in the Arab countries.
JEWS IN IRAQ PRIOR TO 1948

The Iraqi Jews took pride in their distinguished Jewish community, with it's history of scholarship and dignity. Jews had prospered in what was then Babylonia for 1200 years before the Muslim conquest in AD 634; it was not until the 9th century that Dhimmi laws such as the yellow patch, heavy head tax, and residence restriction enforced. Capricious and extreme oppression under some Arab caliphs and Momlukes brought taxation amounting to expropriation in AD 1000, and 1333 the persecution culminated in pillage and destruction of the Bagdad Sanctuary. in 1776, there was a slaughter of Jews at Bosra, and in bitterness of anti Jewish measures taken by Turkish Muslim rulers in the 18th century caused many Jews to flea.

The Iraqi Jewish community is one of the oldest in the world and has a great history of learning and scholarship. Abraham, the first Jew and the father of the Jewish people, was born in Ur of the Chaldees, in southern Iraq, around 2,000 A.D. The community traces its history back to 6th century A.D, when Nebuchadnezzar conquered Judea and sent most of the population into exile in Babylonia.

The community also maintained strong ties with the Land of Israel and, with the aid of rabbis from Israel, succeeded in establishing many prominent rabbinical academies. By the 3rd century, Babylonia became the center of Jewish scholarship, as is attested to by the community's most influential creation, the Babylonian Talmud.

Under Muslim rule, beginning in the 7th century, the situation of the community fluctuated. Many Jews held high positions in government or prospered in commerce and trade. At the same time, Jews were subjected to special taxes, restrictions on their professional activity, and anti- Jewish incitement among the masses.

Under British rule, which began in 1917, Jews fared well economically, and many were elected to government posts. This traditionally observant community was also allowed to found Zionist organizations and to pursue Hebrew studies. All of this progress ended when Iraq gained independence in 1932.

In 1941, after Rashid Ali overthrow the Iraqi goverment in 1941 with the help of Hajj Amin Al Husseini. They installed a Nazi puppet goverment. The first thing Rashid Ali and Husseini did, was order a pogram of Jews, where 187 Jews were massacred.
This is exactly what would have happened, if the Arabs would have won the 48 war. This is what Israel's army prevented in 48.
On June 1st and June 2nd of 1941, hundreds of Iraqi Arabs brutally attacked Iraqi Jews in the towns of Al Rusafa and Abu Sifyan. Jews were killed randomly, women and children were raped in front of their relatives, babies crushed, houses set on fire, looting was everywhere.
On June 2,1941: Policemen, soldiers and slum dwellers from Al Karkh entered the scene, and participated in the killing and the looting everywhere. Reports vary official Iraqi reports mention 187 killed,

JEWS IN IRAQ AFTER 1948

In 1950, Iraqi Jews were permitted to leave the country within a year provided they forfeited their citizenship. A year later, however, the property of Jews who emigrated was frozen and economic restrictions were placed on Jews who chose to remain in the country. From 1949 to 1951, 104,000 Jews were evacuated from Iraq in Operations Ezra and Nehemiah; another 20,000 were smuggled out through Iran. In 1952, Iraq's government barred Jews from emigrating and publicly hanged two Jews after falsely charging them with hurling a bomb at the Baghdad office of the U.S. Information Agency.

With the rise of competing Ba'ath factions in 1963, additional restrictions were placed on the remaining Iraqi Jews. The sale of property was forbidden and all Jews were forced to carry yellow identity cards. After the Six-Day War, more repressive measures were imposed: Jewish property was expropriated; Jewish bank accounts were frozen; Jews were dismissed from public posts; businesses were shut; trading permits were cancelled; telephones were disconnected. Jews were placed under house arrest for long periods of time or restricted to the cities.

Persecution was at its worst at the end of 1968. Scores were jailed upon the discovery of a local "spy ring" composed of Jewish businessmen. Fourteen men-eleven of them Jews-were sentenced to death in staged trials and hanged in the public squares of Baghdad; others died of torture. On January 27, 1969, Baghdad Radio called upon Iraqis to "come and enjoy the feast." Some 500,000 men, women and children paraded and danced past the scaffolds where the bodies of the hanged Jews swung; the mob rhythmically chanted "Death to Israel" and "Death to all traitors." This display brought a world-wide public outcry that Radio Baghdad dismissed by declaring: "We hanged spies, but the Jews crucified Christ." (Judith Miller and Laurie Mylroie, Saddam Hussein and the Crisis in the Gulf, p. 34).

Jews remained under constant surveillance by the Iraqi government. Max Sawadayee, in "All Waiting to be Hanged" writes a testimony of an Iraqi Jew (who later escaped): "The dehumanization of the Jewish personality resulting from continuous humiliation and torment...have dragged us down to the lowest level of our physical and mental faculties, and deprived us of the power to recover.".

In response to international pressure, the Baghdad government quietly allowed most of the remaining Jews to emigrate in the early 1970's, even while leaving other restrictions in force. Most of Iraq's remaining Jews are now too old to leave. They have been pressured by
the government to turn over title, without compensation, to more than $200 million worth of Jewish community property. (New York Times, February 18, 1973).


JEWS IN LIBYA PRIOR TO 1948

The Jewish community of Libya traces its origin back to the 3rd century B.C Under Roman rule, Jews prospered.

In 73 A.D, a zealot from Israel, Jonathan the Weaver, incited the poor of the community in Cyrene to revolt. The Romans reacted with swift vengeance, murdering him and his followers and executing other wealthy Jews in the community. This revolt foreshadowed that of 115 A.D, which broke out not only in Cyrene, but in Egypt and Cyprus as well.

In 1785, where Ali Burzi Pasha murdered hundreds of Jews.

With the Italian occupation of Libya in 1911, the situation remained good and the Jews made great strides in education. At that time, there were about 21,000 Jews in the country, the majority in Tripoli. In the late 1930s, Fascist anti-Jewish laws were gradually enforced, and Jews were subject to terrible repression. Still, by 1941, the Jews accounted for a quarter of the population of Tripoli and maintained 44 synagogues. In 1942 the Germans occupied the Jewish quarter of Benghazi, plundered shops, and deported more than 2,000 Jews across the desert, where more than one-fifth of them perished. Many Jews from Tripoli were also sent to forced labor camps.

Conditions did not greatly improve following the liberation. During the British occupation, there was a series of pogroms, the worst of which, in 1945, resulted in the deaths of more than 100 Jews in Tripoli and other towns and the destruction of five synagogues.

A savage pogrom in Tripoli on November 5, 1945 were more than 140 Jews were massacred and almost every synagogue looted. (Howard Sachar, A History of Israel).

In June 1948, rioters murdered another 12 Jews and destroyed 280 Jewish homes. Thousands of Jews fled the country after Libya was granted independence and membership in the Arab League in 1951. (Norman Stillman, The Jews of Arab Lands in Modern Times).

After the Six-Day War, the Jewish population of 7,000 was again subjected to pogroms in which 18 were killed, and many more injured, sparking a near-total exodus that left fewer than 100 Jews in Libya.
When Col. Qaddafi came to power in 1969, all Jewish property was confiscated and all debts to Jews cancelled.

Although emigration was illegal, more than 3,000 Jews succeeded to leave to Israel. When the British legalized emigration in 1949, more than 30,000 Jews fled Libya. At the time of Colonel Qaddafi's coup in 1969, some 500 Jews remained in Libya. Today, no Jews are believed to live in Libya.

JEWS IN EGYPT PRIOR TO 1948

Jews have lived in Egypt since Biblical times, and the conditions of the community have constantly fluctuated with the political situation of the land. Israelite tribes first moved to the Land of Goshen (the northeastern edge of the Nile Delta) during the reign of the Egyptian
pharaoh Amenhotep IV (1375-1358 B.C).

During the reign of Ramses II (1298-1232 B.C), they were enslaved for the Pharaoh's building projects. His successor, Merneptah, continued the same anti-Jewish policies, and around the year 1220 B.C, the Jews revolted and escaped across the Sinai to Canaan. This is the biblical Exodus commemorated in the holiday of Passover. Over the years, many Jews in Eretz Israel who were not deported to Babylon sought shelter in Egypt, among them the prophet Jeremiah. By 1897 there were more than 25,000 Jews in Egypt, concentrated in Cairo and Alexandria. In 1937 the population reached a peak of 63,500.

Friedman wrote in "The Myth of Arab Tolerance", "One Caliph, Al-Hakem of the Fatimids devised particularly insidious humiliations for the Jews in his attempt to perform what he deemed his roll as "Redeemer of mankind", first the Jews were forced to wear miniature golden calf images around their necks, as though they still worshipped the golden calf, but the Jews refused to convert. Next they wore bells, and after that six pound wooden blocks were hung around their necks. In fury at his failure, the Caliph had the Cairo Jewish quarter destroyed, along with it's Jewish residence, in".

In 1945, with the rise of Egyptian nationalism and the cultivation of anti-Western and anti-Jewish sentiment, riots erupted. In the violence, 10 Jews were killed, 350 injured, and a synagogue, a Jewish hospital, and an old-age home were burned down. The establishment of the State of Israel led to still further anti-Jewish feeling: Between June and November 1948, bombs set off in the Jewish Quarter killed more than 70 Jews and wounded nearly 200. 2,000 Jews were arrested and many had their property confiscated. Rioting over the next few months resulted in many more Jewish deaths. Between June and November 1948, bombs set off in the Jewish Quarter killed more than 70 Jews and wounded nearly 200. Jews. In 1956, the Egyptian government used the Sinai Campaign as a pretext for expelling almost 25,000 Egyptian Jews and confiscating their property. Approximately 1,000 more Jews were sent to prisons and detention camps. On November 23, 1956, a proclamation signed by the Minister of Religious Affairs, and read aloud in mosques throughout
Egypt, declared that "all Jews are Zionists and enemies of the state," and promised that they would be soon expelled.

Thousands of Jews were ordered to leave
New York World Telegram).

By 1957 it had fallen to 15,000. In 1967, after the Six-Day War, there was a renewed wave of persecution, and the community dropped to 2,500.
By the 1970s, after the remaining Jews were given permission to leave the country, the community dwindled to a few families.

JEWS IN MOROCCO PRIOR TO 1948

The Jewish community of present-day Morocco dates back more than 2,000 years. There were Jewish colonies in the country before it became a Roman province. in 1032 AD, 6000 Jews were murdered. Indeed the greatest persecution by the Arabs towards the Jews was in Fez, Morocco, nothing was worse than the slaughter of 120,000 Jews in 1146 and before
that In 1160 Maimonides in his Epistle concerning apostasy writes his fellow Jews: "Now we are asked to render the active homage to heathenism but only to recite an empty formula which the Moslems themselves knew we utter insincerely in order to circumvent the bigot
... indeed, any Jew who, after uttering the Muslim formula, wishes to observe the whole 613 precepts in the privacy of his home, may do so without hindrance. Nevertheless, if, even under circumstances, a Jew surrenders his life for the sanctification of the name of God before men, he has done nobly and his reward is great before the Lord. But if
a man asked me, "shall I be slain or utter the formula of Islam?" I answer, "utter the formula and live ... "". In 1391 a wave of Jewish refugees expelled from Spain brought new life to the community, as did new arrivals from Spain and Portugal in 1492 and 1497. From 1438, the
Jews of Fez were forced to live in special quarters called mellahs, a name derived from the Arabic word for salt because the Jews in Morocco were forced to carry out the job of salting the heads of executed prisoners prior to their public display.

Chouraqui sums it up when he wrote: "such restriction and humiliation as to exceed anything in Europe". Charles de Foucauld in 1883 who was not generally sympathetic to Jews writes of the Jews: "They are the most unfortunate of men, every Jew belongs body and soul to his
seigneur, the sid[Arab master]".

Similarly, in 1465, Arab mobs in Fez slaughtered thousands of Jews, leaving only 11 alive, after a Jewish deputy vizier treated a Muslim woman in "an offensive manner." The killings touched off a wave of similar massacres throughout Morocco.

JEWS IN MOROCCO AFTER 1948

In June 1948, bloody riots in Oujda and Djerada killed 44 Jews and wounded scores more. That same year, an unofficial economic boycott was instigated against Moroccan Jews.

In 1956, Morocco declared its independence, and Jewish emigration to Israel was suspended. In 1963, emigration resumed, allowing more than 100,000 Moroccan Jews to reach Israel.

In 1965, Moroccan writer Said Ghallab described the attitude of his fellow Muslims toward their Jewish neighbors:
The worst insult that a Moroccan could possibly offer was to treat someone as a Jew....My childhood friends have remained anti-Jewish.
They hide their virulent anti-Semitism. A whole Hitlerite myth is being cultivated among the populace. The massacres of the Jews by Hitler are exalted ecstatically. It is even credited that Hitler is not dead, but alive and well, and his arrival unclean. They lay claims to all his belongings, and if he is unwilling, they employ force...The Jews live in outside the town in dark dwellings like prison cells or caves out of fear...for the least offense, he is sentenced to outrageous fines, which he is quite unable to pay. In case of non-payment, he is put in chains and cruelly beaten every day. Before the punishment is inflicted, the Cadi[judge] addresses him in gentle tones and urges him
to change his faith and obtain a share of all the glory of this world and of the world beyond. His refusal is again regarded as penal obstinacy. On the other hand, it is not open to the Jew to prosecute a Muslim, as the Muslim by right of law can dispose of the life and the
property of the Jew, and it is only to be regarded as an act of magnanimity if the Jews are allowed to live. The Jew is not admissible as a witness, nor has his oath any validity.".

Danish-German explorer Garsten Neibuhr visited Yemen in 1762 described Jewish life in Yemen: "By day they work in their shops in San'a, but by night they must withdraw to their isolated dwellings, shortly before my arrival, 12 of the 14 synagogues of the Jews were torn down, and all their beautiful houses wrecked".

The Jews did not improve until the establishment of the French Protectorate in 1912, when they were given equality and religious autonomy. However, during World War II, when France was ruled by the anti-Semitic Vichy government, King Muhammed V prevented the deportation of Jews from Morocco.

In 1922, the government of Yemen reintroduced an ancient Islamic law that decreed that Jewish orphans under age 12 were to be forcibly converted to Islam.

In 1947, after the partition vote, Muslim rioters, joined by the local police force, engaged in a bloody pogrom in Aden that killed 82 Jews and destroyed hundreds of Jewish homes. Aden's Jewish community was economically paralyzed, as most of the Jewish stores and businesses were destroyed. Early in 1948, looting occurred after six Jews were falsely accused of the ritual murder of two Arab girls. (Howard Sachar, A History of Israel).

By 1948 there were some 270,000 Jews in Morocco. In an atmosphere of uncertainty and grinding poverty, many Jews elected to leave for Israel, France, the United States, and Canada.

Finally, nearly 50,000 traditionally religious Yemeni Jews, who had never seen a plane, were airlifted to Israel in 1949 and in 1950 in Operation "Magic Carpet.". Since the Book of Isaiah promised, "They shall mount up with wings, as eagles". The Jewish community bordered
"The Eagles" contentedly; to the pilots consternation some of them lit a bong fire aboard, to cook there food.

JEWS IN TUNISIA PRIOR TO 1948

The first documented evidence of Jews in this area dates back to 200 A.D and demonstrates the existence of a community in Latin Carthage under Roman rule. Latin Carthage contained a significant Jewish presence, and several sages mentioned in the Talmud lived in this area
from the 2nd to the 4th centuries.

During the Byzantine period, the condition of the community took a turn for the worse. An edict issued by Justinian in 535 excluded Jews from public office, prohibited Jewish practice, and resulted in the transformation of synagogues into churches. Many fled to the Berber
communities in the mountains and in the desert.

After the Arab conquest of Tunisia in the 7th century, Jews lived under satisfactory conditions, despite discriminatory measures such as a poll tax.

From 7th century Arab conquest down through the Almahdiyeen atrocities, Tunisia fared little better than its neighbors. The complete expulsion of Jews from Kairouan near Tunis occurred after years of hardship, in the 13 century when Kairouan was anointed as a holy city of Islam.

In the 16th century, the "hated and despised" Jews of Tunis were periodically attacked by violence and they were subjected to "vehement anti-Jewish policy" during the various political struggles of the period. In 1869 Muslims butchered many Jews in the defenseless ghetto.

Conditions worsened during the Spanish invasions of 1535-1574, resulting in the flight of Jews from the coastal areas. The situation of the community improved once more under Ottoman rule.

During this period, the community also split due to strong cultural differences between the Touransa (native Tunisians) and the Grana (those adhering to Spanish or Italian customs).

Improvements in the condition of the community occurred during the reign of Ahmed Bey, which began in 1837. He and his successors implemented liberal legislation, and a large number of Jews rose to positions of political power during this reign.

Under French rule, Jews were gradually emancipated. However, beginning in November 1940, when the country was ruled by the Vichy authorities, Jews were subject to anti-Semitic laws. From November 1942 until May 1943, the country was occupied by German forces. During that time, the condition of the Jews deteriorated further, and many were deported to
labor camps and had their property seized.

Jews suffered once more in 1956, when the country achieved independence. The rabbinical tribunal was abolished in 1957, and a year later, Jewish community councils were dissolved. In addition, the Jewish quarter of Tunis was destroyed by the government. Anti-Jewish
rioting followed the outbreak of the Six-Day War; Muslims burned down the Great Synagogue of Tunis. This caused massive immigration of Jews.

JEWS IN ALGERIA PRIOR TO 1948

Jewish settlement in present-day Algeria can be traced back to the first centuries of the Common Era. In the 14th century, with the deterioration of condiesult, almost 130,000 Algerian Jews immigrated to France. Since 1948, 25,681 Algerian Jews have emigrated
to Israel. JEWS IN SYRIA BEFORE 1948

The last Jews who wanted to leave Syria departed with the chief rabbi in October 1994. Prior to 1947, there were some 30,000 Jews made up of three distinct communities, each with its own traditions: the Kurdish- speaking Jews of Kamishli, the Jews of Aleppo with roots in Spain, and the original eastern Jews of Damascus, called Must'arab. Today only a tiny remnant of these communities remains.

The Jewish presence in Syria dates back to biblical times and is intertwined with the history of Jews in neighboring Eretz Israel. With the advent of Christianity, restrictions were imposed on the community.
The Arab conquest in 636 A.D, however, greatly improved the lot of the Jews. Unrest in neighboring Iraq in the 10th century resulted in Jewish migration to Syria and brought about a boom in commerce, banking, and crafts. During the reign of the Fatimids, the Jew Menashe Ibrahim El- Kazzaz ran the Syrian administration, and he granted Jews positions in the government.

Syrian Jewry supported the aspirations of the Arab nationalists and Zionism, and Syrian Jews believed that the two parties could be reconciled and that the conflict in Palestine could be resolved.
However, following Syrian independence from France in 1946, attacks against Jews and their property increased, culminating in the pogroms of 1947, which left all shops and synagogues in Aleppo in ruins.
Thousands of Jews fled the country, and their homes and property were taken over by the local Muslims.

For the next decades, Syrian Jews were, in effect, hostages of a hostile regime. They could leave Syria only on the condition that they leave members of their family behind. Thus the community lived under siege, constantly under fearful surveillance of the secret police.



by gehrig
Won't one of the fine members of this board reply by claiming with absolute visceral certainty that the Nazism of the previous post is really only the result of a Zionist "black-op" plot? That _is_ the way it works here, isn't it -- that any Jew-hating post, no matter how vile, can be excused as long as someone -- anyone -- makes the slightest gestures toward perfunctorily blaming them wicked Zionistas for its appearance?

In which case, you gotta wonder -- if it really _were_ Zionista black-op, as some people want so earnestly to believe, because it would make them feel empowered and testosteroned to have engaged the Great Zionist Machine, then why isn't SF getting hit by one twentieth of the blatant Nazoid crap now appearing on IMC-Palestine?

@%<
by ?
I warned you guys at UCIMC about this - they took over IMC-Palestine and they're sinking their hooks into other boards.

Either Indymedia is unconcerned or uncooperative in preventing this from happening.
by me (caille [at] excite.com)
just for ppl's knowledge, jews in syria were given what is beleived to be a CHOICE: either stay in the country, or leave to israel, of course without coming back again...however, they could well take all their belongings with them, which they did. no one forced them to go, and absolutely no one from the syrian "locals" took their belongings. of course some of them stayed, but for the ones who left, they indeed were brought to beleive that they would get to israel, and live the life they were always promised to live...the irony is that, in israel, nowadays, all arab jews are treated differently, and are considered to be inferior to Ashkenases....i dare say a lot of them regret leaving to israel...
so would you for heaven;s sake stop brainwashing ppl about the poor jews who have been deprived from their birth rights, and from their human rights????....and also, a thing that drives me CRAZY, is when they say that arabs are anti semitic....for your information, arabs are semites, so....at least, be politically correct!
by Critical Thinker
>>>"all arab jews are treated differently, "<<<

Crap.

>>>"a thing that drives me CRAZY, is when they say that arabs are anti semitic....for your information, arabs are semites, so....at least, be politically correct!"<<<

Many Arabs, probably most, ARE anti-Semitic.

Anti-Semitism = Jew hatred. Look it up in the dictionary, get educated.

We (at least I) rather be correct than politically correct just to suit people like you.
by samantha (samantha460 [at] hotmail.com)
you go look it up in the dictionnary....Mr. or Mrs. critical thinker

and to your information, most arabs are not anti-semitic, but anti-israeli....i hope u'll be able to see the difference...

i'll let u think about it, ciao
by me (caille [at] excite.com)
from :"le petit larousse", definition of
-semite=qui appartient a un ensemble de peuples du Proche Orient parlant ou ayant parle dans l'antiquite des langues semitiques (akkadiens--Assyro-Babyloniens--, Amorrites, Arameens, Pheniciens, Arabes, Hebreux, Ethiopiens).
which translates to: person belonging to a group of ppl from the orient(what nowadays is middle east, mostly) speaking or previously using semitic languages: (akkadiens--Assyro-Babyloniens--, Amorrites, Arameens, Pheniciens, Arabs, Hebrews, Ethiopiens).
now,
-langue semitique=groupe de langues chamito-semitiques d'asie occidentale et du nord de l'afrique (arabe, berbere, hebreu, arameen, amharique).
which translates into: group of chamito-semitic languages of western asia et north africa (arabic, berbere, hebrew, arameen, amharique).

And i do assure you i copied everything word by word, and for the translations, feel free to verify....

of course, this is the origin of the word semitism, (and you could see that arabs are indeed semitic, which we (arabs) do not deny, and are the 1st ones to admit...even once, syria's president, mentionned it in his speach (which of course was not on made known to the world due to reasons both you and i are aware of): "how can u accuse me of being anti-semetic, when i, as well as my ancestors, are semitic?".

nowadays, to justify the israeli's government acts in palestine, and also in order to make sure that the public opinion be pro-american, and consequently, pro-israeli, the word "semetic" is used (in a very wrong way i dare say, considering the definitions above) to make ppl beleive that jews are being, as a race, and i stress on that: A RACE, NOT A RELIGION, being discriminated against. of course, you ppl have been discriminated against, but that was half a century ago....we all(all the world, even arabs) feel for what you ppl have been through, we respect that...but with all due respect, ever since the end of the dicrimination against jews, arabs have been discriminated against by israeli ppl, and i stress on that as well: ISRAELI PPL, AND NOT JEWISH PPL, and consequently, the US and a lot of other countries.

Again, i said israeli ppl, and not jewish ppl, because there is a big difference between the two. and if you cannot make the difference, than i'll be glad to let u know that we arabs do, and that there are still many jews living in syria, that in schools, they are totally treated like all the other students, they are encouraged to respect their religious beleives: for ex, no one writes an exam (even muslims or christians) on shabbat, and everyone else respects them.


by ...
LOL, I suppose, "critical thinker", that you are the one getting educated right now. well done caille!!!!
by Critical Thinker
1. To samantha (samantha460 [at] hotmail.com):

>>>"you go look it up in the dictionnary....Mr. or Mrs. critical thinker"<<<

-Snort-. (You think we're in a playground?)

>>>"to your information, most arabs are not anti-semitic, but anti-israeli....i hope u'll be able to see the difference... "<<<

I know the difference between being anti-Semitic and being anti-Israeli. One can be either or both.
I'd like to know how you could establish with such certainty that *most* Arabs aren't anti-Semitic. Please present your evidence or forever hold your piece.

2. "me" (caille [at] excite.com):

Nice try. The subject was the definition of *anti*-Semitism. You forgot the pesky word before the hyphen. Your attempt to change the subject failed. I won't comment on your speech as it's off the topic of the definition of anti-Semitism.

Goodbye clown.
by Debate Coach
An ad hominem is not a rebuttal.
by the REAL debate coach
It’s a job description.

If it had been used in an attempt to refute a point that had been made, other than the unsubstantiated, and unsubstantiatable, allegation that Scottie is not an idiot, then it would indeed be an and hominem. But that was not the case.
well, i dare say that you have just proven to be the most idiotic creature, critical thinker, or may i say, stupid thinker....

go to anti and see the definition for that....

oh, and just for the record, when ppl are diplomatic, try to be intelligent (for your own sake), and reply with something that makes sense....i.e. do not attack ppl just because you don;t know what your talking about...it just shows you know?

good luck
by gehrig
"Critical Thinker" is right; if you study the origin of the word "antisemitism" in any depth you'll see that it was popularized by a Jew-hating pseudoscholar named Wilhelm Marr in his 1877 book "Antisemitizmus," explaining why good white Europeans like him should hate the Jews.

If it turns out that Wilhelm Marr was a bozo, and picked a bad name for his new euphemism for "I hate Jews," that doesn't change the fact that Europeans of every language took Marr's usage and ran with it, with the result that there is no more any serious contention about what the word "antisemitism" means than there is about any other well-established word with a well-established meaning.

In fact, if you look at the historical record, you'll see that the word "Palestinian" is much more problematic; at one point it meant what the word "Zionist" means now!

@%<
by Critical Thinker
>>>"when u have nothing to say, plz don;t say anything..."<<<

I guess you needed a corny line for want of a better title.

>>>"well, i dare say that you have just proven to be the most idiotic creature, critical thinker, or may i say, stupid thinker.... "<<<

I pity you more than you can even imagine. Who knows, maybe you have carried yourself in most of your other intellectual debates the same sorry way you did here.

>>>"go to anti and see the definition for that.... "<<<

The topic *was* the "anti". Too bad you felt you needed to brag that you knew what Semitism is, rather than sticking to the topic at hand. When did I deny Arab Semitism?

>>>"when ppl are diplomatic, try to be intelligent (for your own sake), and reply with something that makes sense...."<<<

Seemed to me you were long on the diplomacy but pretty much the opposite with the latter.

>>>"i.e. do not attack ppl just because you don;t know what your talking about...it just shows you know?"<<<

You've hopefully seen gehrig's post confirming my definition of anti-Semitism. To me it was obvious that any knowledgeable person would say something along the lines of what he wrote. Feeling foolish yet? You may have some egg on your face.

>>>"good luck"<<<

You certainly need lots of it!
by gehrig
Gee, think maybe the reason nessie's love letter to himself didn't go out to the imc-us-process mailing list has to do with the fact that it's about THREE HUNDRED frikken' lines long? Did he try posting it somewhere and then just sending the URL to the mailing list? Or did he just bug his eyes out again and shout "WHAT, YOU LIST MODERATORS ARE AGAINST ME TOO? YOU'RE ALL AGAINST ME! I HAVE ENEMIES EVERYWHERE!"?

@%<
by Critical Thinker
A footnote:
gehrig seems to be upset with me over something, though I doubt he'll tell me what. I don't think he would've switched between Scottie and me by accident. I didn't take offense.

by gehrig
It makes them people who've attacked you. That's all it makes them.

What does it make someone whose argument is "they attacked me after I attacked Nazis, therefore they attack me _because_ I attacked Nazis"?

If the person arguing that were ignorant of rhetorical forms, I would say it's "a fool."

But because the person doing that is a self-styled "debate coach," I can only conclude that he _knows_ he's offering up a simple rhetorical fallacy -- post hoc ergo propter hoc, it's called -- because he hopes the readers of Indybay are dumb enough to fall for it.

@%<
by piet
Zionism is, like you say, NOT racism.

't is, however, far worse too.

Consider the gold standard and substance/savings backed credit
vs
fractional reserve and debt note banking

The former provided some sort of brake and finitude to wars breaking out for evermore and then some again in comparison to the minimum cost of adding maximum advantage (once you''ve finagled your way to the controls).

Similarly a mere racism runs up against biological limits, but a greed creed is only as fast as it's ad campaign is mean behind entirely and immaculately proper fronts. Is that where you come in oh slick trick Gehrigk?
by Critical Thinker
If Zionism is far worse than racism and a "greed creed", where does it leave you, a racist anti-Semite and supporter of Palestinism, a terribly racist national liberation movement?




by piet
all the more reason to apply honest fight rules. But I am not gonna get dragged into speaking to the likes of you quick shooter slur slanderers. I have unsuccesfully spurred zionists and racially speaking pure semites into sharing the term anti-semitism to denote excessive focus on faults (which in the absence of positive proposals; be sure there's plenny of that at me site) and in the light of what I formulated above, see the falseness and futility of it, .. . but that doesn't mean the most difficult lesson for Middle Easterners, no matter what creed and/or race, is to learn SHARING
by Critical Thinker
That was quite funny - first you make disparaging, disrespecting remarks hen you addressed a Zionist; next thing we know, you don an anti-slur cloak.

Glad you've determined that Palestinism isn't any better than Zionism.

The other significant question is, do you consider other national liberation movements "greed creeds"? This is an important point; I have yet to encounter someone who isn't anti-Semitic that attempted to peddle a refrain that Zionism is a "greed creed". There may be such people, but they are most probably excruciatingly ignorant and suffer from a dirth of hoest debate skils.

Another point, are you positing a polarity of Zionists on one hand and "racially speaking pure semites" on the other? If not, who do you consider "racially speaking pure semites"?
by piet
'racially pure semites' should have been
'racially pureR semites'

intended was to convey the sense that relatively more pure strains (read: traditional, not necessarily good and when so to the point of inbreeding, positively bad of course) get pitted against those that have traded off and compensated some tolerance in matters of lineage, some hybridizing slack for all the more cultural (mindset) rigidity. This is happening whenever cultures get close to, clutter and cramp to ultimately collide with each other to greater and/or lesser degree. This happens across the board and has therefor as such nothing to do with the Middle East but they sure are Premier league over there, (honour division) as top league soccer is ridiculously called in Holland.

Here's a little collection of conversation fragments on Strauss and zionism (I think you could all use some distraction):

I just finished reading a similar history, from an introduction to Leo Strauss's early writings (Michael Zank). Indeed it is fascinating stuff. I think the important thing to remember about the Brits was their simultaneous manipulations of Trans-Jordan, the Arabian Peninsula, and Iraq. The whole region was won from the Ottoman Empire in WWI. Oil and imperial power moves against the French were the main concerns of the British. Once the British got the Balfour declaration into the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine (1920), and the establishment of a Jewish Agency, the British set about controlling Jewish immigration through the Jewish Agency. Remember this history is simultaneous with Lawrence and Faizal. I think I would say the Brits were not bumbling or indifferent. They were pro-actively suppressing Jewish immigration into Palestine. That become much clearer in the 30s when the Nazis took power and the need for immigration became obvious and desparate. The British stalled and put up more and more restrictions. There is also an Israeli history website that list the key votes in the WZO, Zionist Congresses from 1890-something on. You can read and figure out the power politics almost directly from these minor notes. The Congresses were established in Germany and were held there mostly through the 20s, then switched to Switzerland once the Nazi took over--then suspended until after the war. It is during the early 30s in Germany that the background for the collaboration between some of the Zionist organizations and the Nazi administration of the Jewish Question is set up---but this is waay controversial stuff. I think only Hannah Arendt and few others have gone into any of this history (reading suggestions welcome). As a side note. Leo Strauss was up to his same old nasty tricks working in the early Zionist organizations in Germany in the 20s---that is picking away at the loss of spiritual values in political Zionism. Duh! What an asshole, all the way down. After the Zionists, Strauss turns to guess who? Herr Carl Schmitt, later to become legal consultant to the Third Reich, helping to write Nazi laws. Just a great guy for Leo to suck up to. Schmitt writes Strauss a letter of recommendation for a Rockefeller foundation fellowship in Paris, and lucky Leo scoots from Germany just in time in 1932! Any dirt anybody can add to Leo's activities in the Zionist organizations of the Weimar period---please feel free to contribute.

Leo Strauss was not just a regular Zionist -- as Chuck suggests, Strauss thought that labour Zionism was weak tea. He was, at least for a time, attracted to the extreme "revisionist" Zionism of Vladimir Jabotinsky. Strauss mentioned this once in one of his autobiographal essays (the introduction to the reprint of his first book, on Spinoza, if I remember correctly). But I haven't come across anything that talks about this at any length -- what we really need is a good intellectual biography of Strauss -- alas, his disciples are adverse to that sort of analysis, and none of his critics have done the necessary spade work. If I had a smart graduate student that knew German, I would get them working on Strauss's bio. Jeet

.what we really need is a good intellectual biography of Strauss -- alas, his disciples are adverse to that sort of analysis, and none of his critics have done the necessary spade work. If I had a smart graduate student that knew German, I would get them working on Strauss's bio.

Agreed. I am sort of working along that route, but I am still in the reading stages, the spade work. Let me tell you the spade work is very, very heavy lifting. There is a reason nobody has done a serious intellectual biography of Strauss. It starts with understanding that Strauss was a serious philosophy student and worked under giants like Cassirer and Heidegger to begin with, and in a period that was both a German and Jewish renaissance. The level of analysis is very high and requires a huge amount of erudition. It also requires following the wild patch work of intellectual currents in Weimar. So far the way I am trying to approach it is to read Strauss, then read who Strauss was writing about, then read his contemporaries who were writing about the same topics, then go back and reconstruct the intellectual events and history that surround these writings, then go back and read the history of the people who Strauss is writing about, then finally re-read Strauss again. As you can tell at the moment I am trying to learn the nuances of Zionists arguments and movements, which I don't really understand. If you feel like it, outline in crude terms what Jabotinshy is in relation to say Julius Guttmann. Strauss had a fellowship under Guttmann and was writing for several different Jewish magazines---also I don't know the political bend of them either. These were Der Jude, Die judische Rundschau, and Der judische Student. Michael Zank's introduction is very good, but it lacks concrete political detail and presumes a knowledge of Zionism in the period that I lack. Unfortunately, it is looking like Strauss's relationship to Zionism in all of its nuances in the period, is important to understand. The reason is that couched in this realm are the seeds to Strauss's later concept of the relationship between philosophy, religion, law, state, and social value. What happens as far as I can tell is Strauss becomes very disillustioned with the Zionist movements in the late 20s, and returns to a more hermeneutic approach starting his research on Maimonides(?). His letters and exchanges with Carl Schmitt (somebody else I haven't read!) take place just after he drops out of the Zionist internal battles. This is where I have to re-read sections of Arendt to figure out where she stood at the time, since she is also dappling in Zionism at the same time.

Segev takes on this thesis and demolishes it. The British made a few half-hearted attempts and issued a lot of rhetorical fluff about restricting Jewish immigration, he says, but they almost always gave in to Zionist demands in the end, in part, Segev says, because they thought the Jews controlled both New York and Moscow and had better be heeded. When the Nazis came along, they did issue more substantive restrictions, but these were were often just ignored. Of course, I'm just parroting Segev's book, since I know nothing else, but the evidence he offers of British bumbling is extensive and breathtaking. And I'm still struck by this idea that anti-Semitism fueled the Balfour Declaration. That just blows my provincial mind.
by piet
".. . but that doesn't mean the most difficult lesson for Middle Easterners, no matter what creed and/or race, is to learn SHARING."

" . .. : is .. . ." should be
ISN'T

Certain parties involved in this wrangle don't fight fair and that's not even counting the fact they didn't have a right to start one in the first place .. .
by piet
http://www.scari.org/ethnologic.rose.html
a site with many visuals (by a group of artists)
you'll agree this file is on subject and starts thus:

In Sept. 1968 I was hospitalized, intensive care, in the Ulivallcommunesykhaus in Oslo Norway. At the time I was a young First Lieutenant in the United States Army naive to the stakes and the level of play.
My room mate was one Chaim Rose, at the time, head of the Israeli Mossad. I had a badly crushed right leg and a broken back, he was in for peptic ulcers. We shared the room for a month. The time was filled with the comings and goings of his aids and a parade of Israeli Sabras w/ baskets of fruit & flowers flown in from Israel daily.


ps: my criterion for using the bin and emptying it regularly to prevent big stinks is a simple one: stop repetitiveness, the big waste and nono.

In as far is existence is already a matter of stubborn insistance I am obviously trying to wield something fundamentally unmanagable but door men and initiation rites, threshold and target are facts of life.

Now you guys make this call an even tougher one, being very creative and/or crafty and yet y'all try decide who's in and who's out FOCUSING ON THE PAST with reader attention as the high stake.
I suggest you make it personal AND PROMISSORY. Plenny to start with besides your stash. Compensatory currency competitions are the busily nice cards everybody 'z gonna wanna . .. .

psII: http://www.scari.org and occasionally links to nice off-site places too: http://www.hup.harvard.edu/reviews/ASSMOS_R.html
Moses the Egyptian
The Memory of Egypt in Western Monotheism
Jan Assmann
by Critical Thinker to *piet*
You haven't clearly answered my questions from before. I'm anxious to hear from you:

1. Who are these 'racially speaking pureR semites' - Arabs, Palestinians, Jews, or all three groups? Are you positing a polarity of Zionists on one hand and "racially speaking pureR semites" on the other? If not, who do you consider "racially speaking pureR semites"?

2. Do you consider other national liberation movements "greed creeds"? This is an important point; I have yet to encounter someone who isn't anti-Semitic that attempted to peddle a refrain that Zionism is a "greed creed". There may be such people, but they are most probably excruciatingly ignorant and suffer from a dearth of honest debate skills.

Please don't try to throw in more distractions. Let's see you stand by your convictions by providing clear answers.
by piet
narcissism of small difference is what the distinctions come down to in the nonclusurable end and knowing how aggravatingly and childishly these get played up I pass to play better future music.

look, I am not into joining you for a game of in- and decisive black and white type subtlety loss mastering mister. Thanks but no thanks. Have no use for scapegoatery.

http://www.goddesschess.com/chessays/bidevgraphics.html
this 'll help ya stop being a binarily stuck up and polarized airhead

Article by Pavle Bidev: from p. 80: "Chess has two faces: the egsoteric one, which is available only to the outside world and profane science, and the esoteric one, which can be understood by the (sic) dedicated to the secret science of the Indians. There are two possible interpretations of the chess game: the first one is the traditional and popular explanation that chess is a nice martial game and nothing else; it has become the communis opinio of the whole human race and of the highest representatives of science. .. . .. The boyish tale that chess is a martial game represents but the false face of chess game, its backside."
by Critical Thinker
The conclusion? You come across like a poltroon who is trying in vain to hide behind all sorts of psycho-babble and other babble to avoid incriminating yourself by exposing your bizarre tripe for what it really is.

When push comes to shove you resort to insults. You're a useless tool.

by pointer
this:

http://vancouver.indymedia.org/news/2004/05/136523.php
No, it's by *one* definition evil nesie has deliberately embraced.

>>>"Palestine, by definition, is a geographic region, west of the Jordan, and east of the Mediterranean."<<<

Again, it's by *one* definition evil nesie has deliberately embraced. Another, more historically valid definition is that "Palestine" is a geographic region that encompasses the territories of Israel proper, the disputed territories and today's Jordan.

>>>" Israel is that region of Palestine that has been occupied by crusader-colonialists"<<<

Note the phrase employed at the end of this senrtence - one which the Islamists always use.
Israel is either Israel proper (the state of Israel) or "Palesine" per the definition I wrote.
by just wondering
How do we know? Be specific.
by heard it before
That's an unsubstantiated allegation.
(1.) Oh really? Let's see some proof.

(2.) The idea that where one gets to live is based upon whose ancestors one's were, is racist by definition.
by Critical Thinker
Pharaoh Merneptah who erected the stela by that name circa 1210 BCE mentions Israel as a people. See http://palestinefacts.org/pf_early_palestine_israel_antiquity.php. One of the links on that webpage opens up to http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a015.html (which you have seen on your gutter site at least once, when I was arguing with the clown named Url E. Bird a.k.a The Missing Link).

As for the Philistines' arrival at Cana'an: Read http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/history/A0838797.html. Note that The Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia is hardly what you would call a "Zionist propaganda rag".

Other sources' claim that the Philistines had already been there since Abraham's time (citing Genesis' allusions to Abraham's contacts with Philistines around what would later be known as Be'er Sheba) are mistaken, since these biblical stories are fiction.
by gehrig
CT: "Other people don't do that. I'm asking you too to refrain from using quotation marks. The fact that CT isn't a real name isn't supposed to give you a loophole to take advantage of."

I didn't intend anything by it, but if it bothers you, I'll stop.

@%<
by he gives himself away
>(2.) The idea that where one gets to live is based upon whose ancestors one's were, is racist by definition.

Why does CT not respond to that? Why doesn't Gehrig? Why don't any of the Zionists around here?
by piet
if there'd be one thread for reciprocal and fairly exclusive referrals by and to these two mostly and that such got disallowed on other threads except for the occasional link to this 'feuding few' item if they can't seperate relevant from favorite person(al insult) oriented remarks.
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