portland

This needs to be seen by everyone in the world.

Man, that woman was so good . . . . if a million people in America could hear her speak, things would start to change.

We've all been there, but she really gets out that feeling, after they've targetted you and you feel so freaked out. She had such an excellent description, too.

I want to support protests like this, however they are always so poorly executed as the video shows. Of course the police always use force without cause, in most cases thats what stops things from getting out of control. I was in Jakarta in '98 when things *really* went haywire, and based on my experiences there, protests like this remain innefectual, more of an excuse to take a long coffee break from work and check out the action.

Why don't people get smart and wear swimming goggles for the mace?

Why did a family bring infants and children into the direct path of harm? that is irresponsible and bad parenting. I've had my parents lay me down in front of a bulldozer when I was a kid and I understand the drive to get invovled. What if that kid got shot by a rubber bullet? Are you going to get mad at the police?

To the director of this video,

Excellent work! Though I wasn't there, you seem to have captured the feelings of the day - jubilence, excitement, frustration, celebration, terror, sadness - quite well.
Several shots sent chills down my spine, including the military helicopter hovering over a Nordstrom's and the interview with the woman who saw the baby pepper sprayed, while several made me smile widely, like the man in the mask raving about the revolution.
While I somewhat agree with the last writer that protests like these haven't done much, I think that may be because too many of us are too afraid or busy to get involved in these things. I mean, the footage of the police, who I've come to just call "vaders" when they are dressed in those mechanized, evil black uniforms ready to battle, are frightening. And then the mainstream media never ever goes into the reasons why the people are there protesting, besides a few of their own adjectives or sentences that they come up with (god forbid interviewing some of the participants!). And so it all looks like a big huge chaotic act of releasing frustration that usually ends in showers of pepper spray and batons. No wonder not more of us go!
Anyway, great video and keep fighting the good fight!

I completely agree with Relaxed Guy. Bringing infants and small children to events like this is irresponsible parenting. It's "using" helpless children for political ends, and putting them in danger.

My responsible parents gave us plenty of political background and tons of discussion of issues at home. We grew up aware and alert, in a leftist home in segregated Texas in the 1950s. The family marched in peace marches in the 60s when the kids were teens. But they kept us out of harm's way when we were little.

Other than that, Halleluja. What a fine day. I was there all afternoon. It was splendid.

It looks like SF is getting /.ed for this video. Here's a mirror:

You haven't been lately, you say?

thanks to eugene copwatch for a great video. gives the lie to the corporate accounts like the ap story. too bad it will never make prime time. but you know what? this action is coming soon to a hotel near you. bring your apolitical friends so they can see the militarization of the police in person. we are going to win this thing. and if not, we'll die trying. see ya in the streets. our streets.

smashtheleft -

May you die in a police state of your own making.

The US was built on protest, and has evolved through protest. People who claim to be patriotic who do not know the value of social commentary, protest, and dissent in a truly democratic society are either brainwashed or ignorant beyond repair.
How dare you even use the word "progress" when what you clearly want is to be a puppeteered sheeplike peasant just like in the Middle Ages.

This is just a thought but I am wondering, without proper media coverage, or covered but with pro-right sanitization, is this sort of thing effective? Seems to me all it does is shore up the right's resolve to usher in the american police state as quickly as possible and may well be self defeating at best.

This is just a thought but I am wondering, without proper media coverage, or covered but with pro-right sanitization, is this sort of thing effective? Seems to me all it does is shore up the right's resolve to usher in the american police state as quickly as possible and may well be nothing more than self-defeating.

Police opened fire on Bush protestors with rubber bullets... http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?id=149495&article=32278

Police have opened fire on Bush protestors with rubber bullets, pepper spray and gas. The crowds of people are moving around and regrouping.

The crowd was standing at the barricades and the police had called a state of emergency. Pepper spray was used on group early on. Batons were used on some people. Group included babies in strollers and older people, also people in wheelchairs. Those that could get out of the way were cut off surronded by police. There are snipers on the roofs.

All protestors were given a phone number to write on their arm by legal group that would hook them up with legal services if they are arrested. There are also medic's intersperse in the crowd.

The crowd included union people - longshoremen, anti-war people, people who see BBush as a corporate lackey who is stealing our retirement.

add your own comments http://portland.indymedia.org:8081/comment.php3?publishtype=webcast&top_id=17241

Police reaction to Portland protest by Lisa Thomas 7:03pm Thu Aug 22 '02 wearingpurple [at] yahoo.com

This will backfire. Even our most ostrich-like citizens are not going to stand for rubber bullets being shot in crowds with babies in strollers. This will hopefully wake people up as to what kind of people are running our country and how much closer to a police state we are moving.

========

I saw it with my own eyes by Randy 8:00pm Thu Aug 22 '02

I was between 5th and 6th on the sidewalk. Maybe the ones in front were warned to move, but I didn't hear any warning. It had been a peaceful protest. Suddenly the police came forward spraying pepper spray. A man nearby with an infant in a backpack got hit real good. The baby's face was so red I thought it had quit breathing. We pounded on the door at Carl's Jr. asking for water, but they had locked up. From the other direction came cop cars through the crowd and rubber bullets were fired at those closest to the cars. I kept retreating but the cops kept spraying. Lots of people were sprayed including the camera man from Channel 2 KATU. Some of us ended up across the street at Standard Insurance and used the fountain and pool.

------------------------

GOD BLESS PORTLAND by On Jacob's Ladder 9:48pm Thu Aug 22 '02

Thank you Portland for sending the message loud and clear! I thought the sheeple of this country too comfortable, too stupid, too crass to really care about what is happening here. We can never again ask "How did the German people let it happen?" Wake up - if we do not take to the streets we are letting it happen here. Even Gore (ol'"I'll fight for you" Al) ran and hid under a rock...Taking it to the streets is the only way - there is no other way - hey, Ostrich, do you think writing your Congressperson is the way to do it? They are owned by someone else, not by thee and me...The few who are not don't last (think Anita McKinney). Do you think the ballot is the way? Have you forgotten Florida? They will only "count" the votes they want to count. The only hope we have is in the streets...In closing, a historical messsage for you: "Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship ... Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger." -Hermann Goering, Nazi leader, at the Nuremberg Trials after World War II

READ MORE HERE: http://portland.indymedia.org:8081/front.php3?article_id=17241&group=webcast

===================

Activists in Portland protest Bush policies http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?id=149495&article=32279

President Bush's remarks on forest health and preservation Bush raises record $1 million for Smith, GOP http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?id=149495&article=32281

What's Next...Concentration Camps? by Anis Shivani Until a few weeks ago, there was little mention in the media, even in most of its alternative, progressive form, of words like "fascism," "totalitarianism," "dictatorship," "police state," "martial law," "genocide," "concentration camps," etc. So the dirty work of laying the foundations of the genocidal state occurred in full sight, with open "coverage" by the media. http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?id=149495&article=32207

AMERICAN POLICE STATE: http://www.policestate21.com/

Re: The threat of terrorism from anti-government "Patriots" http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?id=149495&article=32280

Constitutional Rights of "Individual" U.S. Citizens ˜ Ken Murrell If American Citizens want to remain FREE this "Homeland Security" nonsense MUST BE STOPPED immediately! http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?id=149495&article=32205

You know, for somebody who claims the "don't care about" the Pac-NW, you sure are spending a lot of time whining about it.

Admit it, you want to be one of us, don't you?

Good job, Freepers!

The more time you spend over here making wanker posts, the less time you have to go look Chuck Hagel's credit card numbers and post them online.

Meanwhile, the videos discredit both you and your Unelected Fraud.

Good job, Freepers!

The more time you spend over here making wanker posts, the less time you have to go look up Chuck Hagel's credit card numbers and post them online.

Meanwhile, the videos discredit both you and your Unelected Fraud.

Ah, Smashtheleft, is there a thought in your head that Rush didn't put there?

Ah, Smashtheleft, is there a thought in your head that Rush didn't put there?

I'm a middle-aged, church-going business owner who was not active in the 1960s. I was in that Portland, crowd and I applaud every one of the participants. I hope that Bush is forced to confront the righteous anger of the American people wherever he goes.

Oh Gawd, Stop - why don't you just run along to whatever wingnut site you came from and preach to your choir?

Sickened in Seattle.....

Oh Gawd, Stop - why don't you just run along to whatever wingnut site you came from and preach to your choir?

Sickened in Seattle.....

Oh Gawd, Stop - why don't you just run along to whatever wingnut site you came from and preach to your choir?

Sickened in Seattle.....

Oh Gawd, Stop - why don't you just run along to whatever wingnut site you came from and preach to your choir?

Sickened in Seattle.....

No doubt those parents didn't think they'd be pepper sprayed so I think people should lay off them. It would be nice if they were better informed but our mainstream press doesn't cover the full extend of police brutality 99% of the time, so we can't expect every parent to know what to expect.

In Canada the cops suddenly closed in a whole square filled with 400 people and arrested everyone. We can't blame people who want to voice their anger - kids or not - for not knowing.

SmashTheLeft -
The very hatred, intolerance, and complacency you carry is what we "Leftists" are attempting to abolish, replacing them with love, tolerance, and individuality. These aren't the only views we have, but they're important ones. When you start equaling being Muslim with being a rapist, who's the one that has the blindfold over their eyes? Us, or You?

I took my 11-year old to J20. I did it to prove to her that democracy works, and because she was so distressed about the election that she couldn't concentrate at school. I wanted her to know that it was her right and duty to protest when the country is going in the wrong direction.

We stuck with the VoterMarch folks because I wanted to avoid some of the areas of potential violence, but eventually abandoned them and went to a location where we could chant/scream at the parade. The thousands of police in riot gear did not intimidate her and I saw her flip off Cheney's limo. Made her daddy proud!

Taking toddlers and infants may be unwise, but they weren't expecting violence and they weren't out there seeking violence. Children have been involved in many demonstrations from civil rights to antiwar to AIDS to gay rights to the million mom march. Usually the presense of families and children serves as a calming effect to diffuse the police by humanizing the demonstrators. It is, after all, children and our futures that we are fighting for to begin with.

No one expected the over reaction they got from the police. But to quote Monty Python, "Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!" but it came nonetheless. The police lost it. Seeing Americans firing rubber bullets at other Americans blew me away. Kudos on the coverage and the video.

Ever notice the rabid rightwing's answer to every confrontation is to shoot? What a violent buch of people. Especially the freepers. At least once a thread a freeper will call for someone to be shot.

This comment -
"This will backfire. Even our most ostrich-like citizens are not going to stand for rubber bullets being shot in crowds with babies in strollers. This will hopefully wake people up as to what kind of people are running our country and how much closer to a police state we are moving. "
made me so mad - regardless of polictics i certainly would not want these people who think it is ok to bring babies in strollers and old people in wheelchairs into the middle of a mob knowing that things could get ugly
running the country either. Not only is that irresponsible it is stupid and cowardly thinking they could hide behind innocents.

I want to thank everyone who participated in the protest yesterday in Portland. We need more people like them to not be afraid to speak up and stand up for our democracy while we still have some left. Today is my 55th birthday and this gave me something to smile about. I only wish I could have been there with people who give a damn about what this sick administration is doing to our country. You made my day. Thank you all.

This comment -
"This will backfire. Even our most ostrich-like citizens are not going to stand for rubber bullets being shot in crowds with babies in strollers. This will hopefully wake people up as to what kind of people are running our country and how much closer to a police state we are moving. "
made me so mad - regardless of polictics i certainly would not want these people who think it is ok to bring babies in strollers and old people in wheelchairs into the middle of a mob knowing that things could get ugly
running the country either. Not only is that irresponsible it is stupid and cowardly thinking they could hide behind innocents.

I want to thank everyone who participated in the protest yesterday in Portland. We need more people like them to not be afraid to speak up and stand up for our democracy while we still have some left. Today is my 55th birthday and this gave me something to smile about. I only wish I could have been there with people who give a damn about what this sick administration is doing to our country. You made my day. Thank you all.

Ever notice the rabid rightwing's answer to every confrontation is to shoot? What a violent buch of people. Especially the freepers. At least once a thread a freeper will call for someone to be shot.

This was appalling to watch. I can not believe this is happening in the 'land of the free'. AMERICA WAKE UP!

This is where we're headed, all over the US, if we don't stop them immediately!

PS Not my web-site but if you care about America, please drop by so we can combat the absolute evil coming from 1600 Penn Ave.

Convince the Left to disarm themselves so when we come to kill them, they can't shoot back.

I love it how the trolls make up all their Big Man threats from behind the internet hiding in little rooms somewhere typing away on their little keyboards. Its pretty funny.

American public opinion turned against the Vietnam War in 1968 but polls showed that the public hated the anti-war demonstrators more than they hated the war.
The war went on for another seven years with the majority of casualties occurring in that time period. Your noisy obstreperous demonstrations will have the net effect of turning off the public. Public meetings with well-spoken lecturers, letters-to-the-editor, leveraging lecturers with public access channel televison shows, call-ins to radio, getting a speakers bureau going with lecturers talking on radio and TV talk shows, information packed websites would be better ways of approaching the public. Sorry, anarchists, this requires some organization and identifiable leadership (for media contacts). You anarchists are losers.

And they don't give a f--- about polls of mainstream America!

Look, some people in America are afraid, some are blind, some are courageous but need inspiration, etc. There's lots 'o different folks and we all have lots 'o different means to show what we feel.

Leave the anarchists alone and go focus on a meeting - don't tell them what to do. The real criminals here are the media, who can sleep at night while they report lies.

Anarchists represent something to a lot of people, and they can't be told to go to meetings.

the Boston Tea Party was a dismal failure, too.
(sarcasm)

the Boston Tea Party was a dismal failure, too.
(sarcasm)
King George II is going down!

And they don't give a f--- about polls of mainstream America!

Look, some people in America are afraid, some are blind, some are courageous but need inspiration, etc. There's lots 'o different folks and we all have lots 'o different means to show what we feel.

Leave the anarchists alone and go focus on a meeting - don't tell them what to do. The real criminals here are the media, who can sleep at night while they report lies.

Anarchists represent something to a lot of people, and they can't be told to go to meetings.

pretty funny that conservatives used protest to block a recount to get King George II elected then. But oh wait, I forgot - the public HATES Bush, so maybe you are right after all. The fact that no real change ever came without protest doesn't really figure into your equation but I guess that's OK, logic has nothing to do with the way you think anyway. You'd like to return to the Dark Ages and be a serf anyway.

this is an awesome video and i am putting it in my archive of most treasured stuff...god bless and keep the faith

You know what freeper? You scream about the unborn while you cheer attacking babies that are here. I hope you answer to your dollar diety for that one! God Bless the children! Attack women and children and the elderly, be a little Nazi Punk.

Hello,

Nice to see that also in the USA people are against bush,war and capitalism. Seattle was just the beginning. Don't give up, fight!!!

.. and another proof for indymedia's importance. you probably can imagine that you would not here a bit that there might be protests within the US against bush's new war - we have to beliebe that only european guys are protesting.
and the only european newsitem about the portland protests claims that they were directed against bush's environmental 'politics'..

Many are having bandwidth or server problems viewing video of the Portland police riot - so here's a photo gallery from the video

Portland Police Riot:
The People's Story
PHOTO STILLS & WORDS AT:

http://www.GuluFuture.com/portland/

Oh, Smash the left, I just know your a fat, lazy TV addict little middle class white boy who fawns over fascist pigs cause it makes him feel like a big rough tough manly man, all the things you aren't of course. Let me explain something to you bitch. All the Reds in Oregon aren' t hippies or peaceniks. Some of them, like me, are big ugly mean old hardhat construction hands who've been through prison and the military and 20 or 30 years of heavy construction. I just wish we could commune in person. Smash The Left, so I could give you a chance to live out these ridiculous fantasies that clearly posess what passes for your brain. You'd have so much time to think about these things while lying in the gutter bleeding to death. The ability to manipulate pathetic little wannabe punkass bitches like you Is what keeps scum like your fearless leader in power. I live for the day we line filth like you up and "reeducate" you

people who are 'big ugly mean old hardhat construction hands who've been through prison and the military and 20 or 30 years of heavy construction' arent bright enough to type much less have a political opinion. sorry troll.

That's a lot of elitist class bigotry. Get over it. Just because someone has dirt under their nails doesn't mean they got it by dragging their knuckles. Working class people are not one bit dumber than the pasty faced, pencil armed geeks who push buttons for their living. We just work different jobs, that’s all. You use your finger tips. We use the whole hand. That’s the only difference. We all work for the Man.

And yeah, we’re online, too. Get used to it.

come here and call people trolls. we all know who the troll is around here. give it up. American workers have the MOST right to a political opinion - they're the ones who build the nation, who actually produce things tangible. They built the computer you need for your ravings. WIthout them you'd be scratching your balls in a cave somewhere wondering how to start a fire.

We are the backbone of America and we do have a voice just like all Americans have a voice. Right now, our voice is saying that we OVERWHELMINGLY back our President in this war on terrorism. And when the time comes for this country to kick some ass we as working Americans will do our part and support our boys just like we've always done and will continue to do. Pay no attention to these war protesters who claim they are for the blue collar worker. There are a few of our number who are against going to war but just like this country as a whole they are a very very small minority. They don't have us fooled one second and never have. Our actions will speak louder than their words. We the American blue colar worker have always backed our leaders, our flag, our country and our military when it comes time for America to pull together and we will be right there in the middle of it pulling the hardest.

God Bless America

Why is this video only accessible through realone player? I refuse to download such an invasive program. grrr. Can we get some backwards compatibility... with realplayer 7 maybe? I don't know. ;)

Hallo, wie geht's?

you're no blue collar man, I can tell by your overattempt to speak like one. Nice stereotype asshole. I don't agree with you by the way; everyone I talk to seems to think Bush is an asshole. The few who don't are mostly kids or white collar. I don't give two shits what the polls say.
We the American workers have always had to fight our leaders hard to get a fair wage and decent working conditions. Don't presume to speak for us, whoever you are. If by some strange chance you are blue collar, I'll bet dollars to cents you're a scab, cause you sure sound like a lying thieving scab

If AP is lifting off Indymedia, then SS and various other subhumans are probaby posting on here too, to control what they lift.

And then there's our favorite masturbatour, smasharama.

I was sad to discover he has such a rediculous web site. Hasn't the right-wing figured out how to make their own sites yet? It's sort of embarrassing.

Having lived in Portland, and having lived abroad, I find myself wanting to be the one discharging that pepper spray on a Portlander who is so 'self correct' and assured that thier world view is more correct and self assured. These 'campy hollow drum beaters' believe that they alone occupy the moral highground and speak for 'the people'. Then I also think that while my politics and Portlander's has seen a 'divorce' I also do not want this man to play cowboy with the strongest military power on earth. He can play cowboy all he wants, just so long as its in a padded room, complete with wrist restraints and the appropriate medication....

Against Bush, and this opposition as seen in the film, I am a bit scared either way......

I'd rather die than join a faction- Erasmus

Congradulations everyone! you have discovered, what...conflict? Totalitarianism? Fraid not folks, just the same old story...the self fulfilling prophecy of people expecting to be appauled and "brutalized"...all those people there expected something to happen, and it wasn't for Bush, or whoever, to come down and have a heart to heart with his people...they came to start trouble....and that is what they got. It is up to you to say whether or not either side is wrong...the vaders or the peacemongers, but really was anyone shocked??
Violence isn't ever really necessary....it just seems that way sometimes, but in this case, and all others like it, it was provoked, like it or not... the aftermath does not discriminate. [inoocent people will get hurt]
Funny though, everyone wants to stand up and be counted...say their "peace", but they never manage to pull themselves together and actually change anything. opinions are wonderful and really neat, until you find yourself unable to do anything but become a victim of something you knew was going to happen...
This doesn't prove a thing!

nobody goes to a protest expecting to be brutalized. Conservatives use protest all the time too, they just don't like to admit the fact. It's how they ulitmately avoided a recount and got Bush elected, by flying in thugs from all over the country to bang on the windows of the Tallahasee offices where the recount was taking place - which, by the way, is a very normal voting procedure, it happens every election. People who go to protest go there to show their numbers, to meet one another, and to speak their message. They do not go there planning to be beaten up. Conservatives certainly don't and neither does anyone else. Your rhetoric is tired and old. There is nothing wrong with demonstrating and everyone does it. Even Bush's supporters do, albeit in a more violent and thuggish way, as evidenced at Tallahasee.

Not surpising , if you consider the fascist regime that has stolen our government. Every good dictator needs his shock troops. Police? or SS? Well... The thief-inchief's granddaddy did support Hitlet during WW2... should we expect any less of Dubya? http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/carlyle.html

The police should have gone through the crowd and arrested anyone who brought their young kids.
Reckless child endangerment, using their own babies as human shields... sickening.
"But we didn't expect violence!" - that's just malarky.
As soon as Mom/Dad sees punks in black with gasmasks, they should immediately leave the area.

The Police were in the right. If I was out there I would have done the same things as the police. The President is one of the most vauable resources in the US. Reguardless is you dislike him/her or you love the Presedent, you show respect.

Now for the African-American. He is a little Biitch. Join the Army and see what it is like to fight for your country and quit hiding behind other who are entangled in the war on terrorism. Cowards all of them. Never have lived in a foxhole for days on end. Only to be relieved for one hot meal.

This nation in which we live in was created not by Cowards who yell and scream at their leaders but by men and women taking arms up and doing what is told by their government and if you don't like it, I can think of a few places you can go. China, Vietnam, Norht Korea, Hell and Cuba. So deal with it.

The Police 1 - Protesters 0

My prayers go out to the Police and not the protesters.

Thank you Portland P.D.

may you die in a police state of your own creation. Amen.

Protest - n.
A formal declaration of disapproval or objection issued by a concerned person, group, or organization.
An individual or collective gesture or display of disapproval.

I believe in upholding the traditions of democratic protest from all sides. The presence of the police at any form of protest is a welcome one, provided the behaviour of the police at these protests is always in proportion to the behaviour of the protest. I do not feel this was the case in Portland. I believe that other forms of benign restriction should have been attempted before pepper spray, rubber bullets and billy clubs were issued as the restraining force.

To be honest, at a protest, the voices are loud, the words screamed are harsh, and the general shape of action at a protest can appear highly volitile and chaotic. But I have seen few who attend these types of demonstations that are genuinely 'looking' as some put it, for physical conflict. The conflict the large majority seek is of the nature of non-violent confrontation. Surely, the minority that decide to break from this ideal can be apprehended without disturbance to the whole of the protest. They are generally as unwelcomed by the protesters who understand the principles of proportioned protest and police restrictionalism.

Everyone understands the simple cliche 'Fighting fire with fire', and by that, protesting official policies regarding wars for example [as was the leading desire in Portland], "The absence of violence is essential to the statement against it".

The expectation of the vast majority of protesters, is to participate in a collective protest by exercising the speech and assembly rights granted to everyone, and to exercise these rights in respect to those who oppose and those who do not wish to be included. They expect that they can be freely exercised without infringment when these repects are fufilled, and expect to be ensured the extent to which they are expressed is in proportion to the extent to which they are granted. If these particulars are broken, then the force of restriction is necessary because the nature of true just protest has been broken. I think it's clearly evident that in Portland, this was not the factor used by the police for thier intervention. That in fact, the respect for the extent to which the protesters exercised thier rights was inhibited, without just cause to do so.

The infringement and/or removal of basic fundamental human rights in this fashion is a primitive and juvenile way of addressing the discontent shared by citizens who wish to physically express it in collective organization against a governing body.

The behaviour of the police at these protests is always issued by command procedures given by officials who are in clear communication with that same governing body. Local police and and federal officials are unilaterally paid by the collected tax of the same people who have attended this protest. They are paid by us, to 'Protect and serve'. Protect who? Serve who? The peace? I don't think this was a demonstration of thier commitment to that motto.

Anyone who is critical of protest, is surely critical of thier own ability to do so. The strength and effectiveness of a protest depends on the weight of the willingness for expressed disapproval in every individual who attends. The protest is not limited to organized events, it is also carried out in each individual's everyday life. The true virtues of resistance appear not collectively, but seperately. They choose to organize because separately, they share the same opposing views to present conditions. If you truly believe there is no effect created by protest, you have handed the reigns of freedom to those who can harness it for the exercision of it's demise. The actions of this country are OUR responsibilty. We should protest administrations and electorates wherever they do not in a morally conscious manner conduct thier businesses or policies. We should protest this becausewe are collectively responsible for thier actions, and should understand that we must voice our disapproval for any dialouge to be creeated to disassemble the order and inhibit the advancement of corrupt power.

If after our exhausted breath nothing has changed, it has not been because we have been silent. It is because the force of our oppression was stronger that the retributory force of our protest. If we do not protest, we concede defeat.

Protest will continue, whether you believe it has worth and weight or not. And until you do believe this, it is forseeable that the effect you seek in order to validate protest will be unavailable to you.

If you disagree with the principles expressed in the current nature of protests, you should seek to protest that disapproval. The gate to pure and complete effective democracy is the acceptance and interaction of the full spectrum of opinion and it's debate. And this debate in it's vital demography is what will purse the seams of our collective failures, and create our collective sucesses.

Hey you fuckin slimeball, your spelling shows us what an ignorant cumstain you are. Your thoughts take a close second.

Hey you fuckin slimeball, your spelling shows us what an ignorant cumstain you are. Your thoughts take a close second.

Warsaw Ghetto

This country was founded by people who rose up against their government, not people who did what their government told them. If you believe anything else you are a brainwashed fool.

Police 1 - Constitution 0

This reminds me of the Viet Nam days only much more horrific. Anyone who is supporting Bush and the lies he spreads, is certainly infected with a brain virus! The kind of virus that takes away all reason, logic, understanding, and critical thinking. Democracy is a struggle. Make no mistake about it, Bush and his elite don't care a bit for any of us who have to work for a living. They are looting us daily with the illegal income tax, among other scams. Here we find the root of the axis of evil cloaked in integrity, but those with discernment will see the truth and the lie. Keep the pressure on, the beast must be dragged into the light. We want our liberties back, and we want the profits of war to end. It is a collective choice. Freedom, or oppression? The Constitution, or Bushs new rules?

I am just curious- Call me crazy, but what is the point of solidarity when everyone in opposition has so many contrary and impossible aims politically? Any hope of actual progress or change is muted by the collective affirmation (largely guided by provincial 'Portland/Eugene' wishfull thinking) that the 'peoples' voice can speak better for the USA than George W. Bush's.

Call me nuts, but I think at best that democracy is a 'guiding principle.' It depends on solidarity and agreement-a feasible plan. Can a good willed civilian, an individual voice ever pretend that they alone can speak for America? Can any one person actually articulate that voice? No- That is crazy-

Where does America begin, and where does it end? How do you honestly represent all of that under one banner? Did anyone at this protest ask these questions? It keeps us all guessing and hoping that if we vote, give to charity, attend this meeting, write this letter, donate to this cause, attend this protest, that our unfocused unchannelled efforts will somehow preserve democracy.

The protest detests Bush, that much is clear. What next?

To bang a hollow drum makes a metaphoric statement of the spirit of this protest. You make a sound from emptiness, hoping somehow your force, will call forth a deeper meaning, yet you never have any real clarity of what or why that sound is changing emptiness. You only hope your efforts are actually making meaning from emptiness.

I sincerly hope you all produce meaning from emptiness-

I must tell you though, to change emptness requires a fair degree of higher magic than this!

When I see the protestors, I see real people who all have different opinions, different dreams. This to me is the essence of America. This is what the nation's highest ideals are built on, exactly this diversity that you call 'emptiness'.
When I see Bush and his crimes and all the plastic drones marching in lockstep, I see emptiness. When I see all the lies, I see emptiness - because the lies only mean that they have nothing to say. When I see the economy slipping, when I see a president who has led us into war, world disrepute and economic ruin I see emptiness.

I like living in a police state. I don't have to think for myself. I watch my television. Television is good. I like Fox News. Fox News is good. Bush is good. Fox said so. Yehhh for police state! yehhh!

the most depressing aspect of this footage is the fact that this goes largely unreported in the british press...clandestine brutality sponsored by the illuminati to suppress free thought

I was in Florida on work related business all of last week and I can tell you the protest on Bush got very little air play. I would guess those here would say they expected that but let's face it, there weren't that many people protesting. Portland got minor play because the police moved in. As is typical, it was probably only a handful who came there with the intention of starting trouble.

As I mentioned some time ago, when I was at Cal my last 3 years I roomed with a guy who was big into organizing and protesting. I often went along just to have something to do. I mean I knew most the people there, they were always coming over to the apartment. And besides, it was a good way to pick up chicks, which is the purpose of college, right? Inevitability there were those who went there with the sole intention of starting trouble. I heard them plan on it. I heard them talk about how to acomplish it. So, those here who would say that protesters don't go to protests in order to start trouble, you aren't fooling me. Some do. You need to tell it somewhere else. And while there were the majority in my experiences that went to protest, I would say a full 30% went along just to have something to do, just because of peer presure, and just to say they were involved in the "free speech movement" experience they had heard about in the 60's at Berkeley. So while you may have 500 protesters, only 350 really care at all and the rest are just bodies taking up room. But that was college where those types of things come into play. Adults at protests are likely not there because of peer presure or to have something to do.

The comments by "blue collar man" brought to mind a recuring theme here at SF-IMC, that of the anarchist/leftish desire to unite the "working class" in a class struggle against the rich.

I have a good friend of mine in the area who is from Morgantown, WV. His dad was the President of the UMWA (United Mine Workers) in West Virginia in the 70's and 80's. I got to meet his Dad 2 years ago when we went to Morgantown for a WV football game. Let me tell you, this guy was all Union. Union this, Union that. Every other word was Union. Of course, you got to realize when he was active the union's were strong, especially the mine workers, the steel workers, the Teamsters, and the auto workers. I remember in the mid 70's seeing the riots on TV when they would go on strike. Well this guy was one of them. In WV, you didn't fuck with the Mine Workers Union. Not if you wanted to live. Period. And my friend told me his Dad is the money man when the political candidates come to call for Union money for the Democratic candidate. But this guy would make them come to his house. He told me how he has sat down to dinner with his Dad, Mom, and LBJ, Hubert Humphrey, Robert Byrd, Jay Rockafeller, Mondale, Gore and others. So I'm talking to his Dad about the union, his feelings about what's going on today, etc. We get to the part where I ask him what he thinks about the current direction of the Democratic Party and you could see his blood pressure rocket. To summarize the next 2 hours of him talking and me listening, these Union people have no sympathy for and do not want anything to do with gays and gay right, environmentalists, militant feminists, animal rights, anti-gun lobbys and others. And I can assure from the conversation I had they they do in fact view themselves to be the "backbone" of the country along with the American farmers and all other working class people and they have no desire to see America and our current form of government to go with the wind. In short, these people not only don't feel they have anything in common with you, they don't *want" to have anything in common with you. Oh sure, will they run you of if you join them in protest? No. They'll use you if you're there. But don't turn around and think because you protested with them, they'll join you in a pro-gay rights rally or an environmentalist rally. What they want and all they care about is what is good for the Union. Beyond that, they don't care. And yes, the workers do follow the Union leadership. They view the Union leadership as one would view their own loving mother and father. They will do anything their Union leadership asks of them, make no mistake about it. During the 2002 elections, he went to Charleston, WV to deliver the Union money to the Gore campaign. The Dems sent Tipper. You don't sent Tipper to probably one of the strongest Union and Democratic Party states in the USA, you understand? Besides that, there were all these environmentalist groups there to see Tipper and throw in their support for the end of strip mining. Who has more power in WV, the Union or environmentalists? So who does idiot Gore cow-tow to? Needless to say, he returned with check in hand after he gave the Democratic leaders a sound spanking.

I want to encourage those of you who wish to help strike up the band of the working class in your struggle. Let me warn you, the Union has thugs who just love to have intimate conversations with those who may wish to disrupt their way of living or to do anything that's not in favor of what the Union leadership wants. Good Luck!

People protest logging....? Why arn't they protesting the fact Bush knew WEEKS in advance 9-11 attack was going to happen? Donald Rumsfeild knew almost 2 months ahead as he and his staff were being warned by Att. David Shipper and they did nothing. The evidence is out there. check
http://www.infowars.com
among many. Why isn't every American kinking down doors with this information? This is the highest treason ever allowed by the people. You want to be mad at Osamma ....... he worked for the CIA. Had been their asset for over a decade.
Wake up America smell the fat burning it's yours!

People protest logging....? Why arn't they protesting the fact Bush knew WEEKS in advance 9-11 attack was going to happen? Donald Rumsfeild knew almost 2 months ahead as he and his staff were being warned by Att. David Shipper and they did nothing. The evidence is out there. check
http://www.infowars.com
among many. Why isn't every American kicking down doors with this information? This is the highest treason ever allowed by the people. You want to be mad at Osamma ....... he worked for the CIA. Had been their asset for over a decade.
Wake up America smell the fat burning it's yours!

Oh yeah and I love our environment, too. So there, mister Know-it-all.

First of all, I think the cops were wrong, according to the video. Do I trust the editors of the video to show all that happened? No. I have heard many DIFFERENT stories. The fact that you all believe a video edited by biased socialists makes you sheep.

Second, for those of you who hate capitalism, move. There are MANY countries that agree with you. America was founded for those who want to fail or succeed on their own. Social Security, welfare, unemployment, all a bunch of shit not supported by out great constitution. Socialists made all that come to pass because they wanted a handout to support their lazy, uneducated asses.

Watch the video, if America was full of these people, it would be in one mindless, sorry state.

On with capitalism (for nothing else has ever worked!)

By the way, what MORON would bring infants to a mob protest???

If you're so in love with the cops, go down to the station and start telling them so. I'm sure they'd like to hear from you. You could probably sleep there too, under some cop's desk.

And don't worry about anyone criticizing capitalism - it'll take care of itself all by it's lonesome . . . just give it some rope, like it's getting right now under his majesty, and we'll be on our way.

Man, you are a MORON! The trouble with Liberals is that they are blind to anything other than that they want to belive.

First, read my post. What did I say about the cops?

Second, name ONE society greater that America NOT built on Capitalism

Have fun with that one!

Man, you are a MORON! The trouble with Liberals is that they are blind to anything other than that they want to belive.

First, read my post. What did I say about the cops?

Second, name ONE society greater than America NOT built on Capitalism

Have fun with that one!

Man, you are a MORON! The trouble with Liberals is that they are blind to anything other than that they want to belive.

First, read my post. What did I say about the cops?

Second, name ONE society greater than America NOT built on Capitalism.

Have fun with that one!

>Don't judge the rank and file by the "leaders"

You're going to have to give me a reason not to. Before my friends Dad was the President of the UMWA in WV, he was a coal miner for 15 years. He informed me in-depth exactly how the rank and file view there union leaders because it's exactly how he viewed the leadership. There view is in brief "These are the guys who are fighting for better working conditions and better pay for us and our families." Being a member, you know the AFL-CIO endorses certain candidates who are "union friendly" and that the rank and file are informed for whom they are to vote. And being a member, I'm confident you are aware that the vast majority of rank and file members follow marching orders. What is there not to judge.

And as a member, you are aware that what is being said publicly regarding the evironment by the AFL-CIO is not what is being discussed behind closed doors. Strip mining and environmentalist are in direct opposition. Given the choice, the AFL-CIO will support the worker and the need for union jobs. If there's one thing I took away from my conversation with this man it was this; the Union cares about the Union. If you are standing in the way of the wants and desires of the Union, you are the enemy of the Union. Thus the dilemma of those who wish to unite workers who are strong unionist and those who are strong environmentalist. Same problem with the loggers. They don't mesh

lately we have seen unions jumping on the environmental bandwagon. Why? because often the environmental way of doing something is more labour-intensive for one. For two, it guarantees more union jobs over the long haul.

Increased labor costs also causes the price of goods to increase, so there's a double-edged sword. So now instead of 10 men to harvest an acre of timber, it takes 12. Sure more labor is hired, but what good is it if the product's price causes sales to decrease? There's a balance.

I don't see loggers wanting to return to hand-saws, or auto workers willing to have their automated machines taken away in order to hire more workers. The answer to expanding the job base is to open new markets. The unions were in favor of drilling in ANWR for all the union jobs it would bring - high paying union jobs I might add. The Democrats slammed the door in their face. You don't give the kind of money the Unions give to the Dems and have the door slammed in your face. Not good business.

As with all things, time will tell.

Over the long term, some environmental outlook means more jobs for workers. One thing unions do not want is corporations to go completely pillage the natural resources of one country and then move on to the next. This is definately in the interest of the corporations, since they are not confined to operations within a single nation, but are capable of moving about. Unions, by and large, with a few exceptions, tend to be tied to a geographic area and it wouldn't give them much credibility with workers in the new area if they had been seen to allow this to happen in the past.
I will agree with you, though, that more often than not unions are at loggerheads with environmentalists. But as resources begin to deplete I think you will see more and more co-operation. It's only a logical move for unions to want to protect jobs over the long haul.
I don't think the kind of labour intensive I was talking about meant hand-saws. In selective cutting you can't use skidders, its true, but you can still use chainsaws. I'll take here as a great model of forestry Sweden, the world's largest lumber producer. They don't clearcut and for this reason have to this date the biggest and best stands of timber, in a tiny little country (comparitively). They outproduce Canada which is no small feat, and despite the fact Canadian logging is by and large massive clearcutting across great swaths of territory. Canadian and American timber operations are years and years behind Swedish ones.

Hey Reality,
I think that the US capitalist empire is the most annoying, petty, thuggish, white trash empire in history. We're leaving a wake of coke cans, McDonalds bags, rusting cars, and depleted uranium in our wake. The positives in our culture are in spite of the right wing, money grubbing, capitalist scumbags that run the show. What good is that? As far as empires go, give me Rome any day, or Greece. They were both queer friendly, for one thing. Even the stuffy British Empire had a lot more class and pizzazz than we do.

And do us all a favor here, repeat something that Rush Limbaugh and the RNC didn't insert into your pumpkin little head. It's really incredibly tired, boring, and pathetic. The rah rah America boosterism/jingoism holds no water. Any ignorant doofus can spout that sort of drivel. So our government and corporations are more aggressive, corrupt, and warlike than the rest of the world right now? Big deal. That doesn't impress me at all.
Your reality is as real as MTV's.

Golfer, great comment. I only "repeat something that Rush Limbaugh and the RNC didn't insert into (my) pumpkin little head"

Wow, that was the best debate ever.

I bow down to you...

I go to a number of large crowd-oriented events all the time, and they are packed with children. Sometimes these events go haywire. I remember one summer after a big summer food fair, a group of young people who had been drinking got rowdy and started assailing people and tearing things up.

No one would blame a parent for being in the middle of something like this with a child. It's just happenstance.

Another instance: after a big downtown parade here one summer, people got rowdy afterwards and started throwing beer bottles and getting into fights. But there were lots of children and babies about.

Are parents supposed to keep their children away from all crowd events, including patriotic parades and food fairs?

Any large group or mob of people can easily go out of control. In the case of Portland, it seems that it was the police who went out of control and attacked the peaceful protesters.

Americans have the right to protest peacefully. The parents who brought their children were living by this right. They were not making an assumption that police would attack their babies, because they assumed that they still had the right to peacefully protest without being harmed by the government.

So in this sense, they really were living their ideals, living according to the rule of law. They were the victims of a lawbreaking police department. They therefore cannot be blamed for respecting and actually participating in rights guaranteed under the Constitution of the U.S.

I go to a number of large crowd-oriented events all the time, and they are packed with children. Sometimes these events go haywire. I remember one summer after a big summer food fair, a group of young people who had been drinking got rowdy and started assailing people and tearing things up.

No one would blame a parent for being in the middle of something like this with a child. It's just happenstance.

Another instance: after a big downtown parade here one summer, people got rowdy afterwards and started throwing beer bottles and getting into fights. But there were lots of children and babies about.

Are parents supposed to keep their children away from all crowd events, including patriotic parades and food fairs?

Any large group or mob of people can easily go out of control. In the case of Portland, it seems that it was the police who went out of control and attacked the peaceful protesters.

Americans have the right to protest peacefully. The parents who brought their children were living by this right. They were not making an assumption that police would attack their babies, because they assumed that they still had the right to peacefully protest without being harmed by the government.

So in this sense, they really were living their ideals, living according to the rule of law. They were the victims of a lawbreaking police department. They therefore cannot be blamed for respecting and actually participating in rights guaranteed under the Constitution of the U.S.

By the way Golfer, Liberals really do care about you. Doesn't it make you feel good?

See who is swallowing propaganda?

Hitler learned a valuable lesson early on, focus the propaganda towards the masses. Let's see, is it Conservatives or Liberals that keep chanting over and over "WE ARE FOR THE WORKING MAN, THE AVERAGE AMERICAN, WE CARE ABOUT YOU!!!!"

By the way Golfer, Liberals really do care about you. Doesn't it make you feel good?

See who is swallowing propaganda?

Hitler learned a valuable lesson early on, focus the propaganda towards the masses. Let's see, is it Conservatives or Liberals that keep chanting over and over "WE ARE FOR THE WORKING MAN, THE AVERAGE AMERICAN, WE CARE ABOUT YOU!!!!"

I go to a number of large crowd-oriented events all the time, and they are packed with children. Sometimes these events go haywire. I remember one summer after a big summer food fair, a group of young people who had been drinking got rowdy and started assailing people and tearing things up.

No one would blame a parent for being in the middle of something like this with a child. It's just happenstance.

Another instance: after a big downtown parade here one summer, people got rowdy afterwards and started throwing beer bottles and getting into fights. But there were lots of children and babies about.

Are parents supposed to keep their children away from all crowd events, including patriotic parades and food fairs?

Any large group or mob of people can easily go out of control. In the case of Portland, it seems that it was the police who went out of control and attacked the peaceful protesters.

Americans have the right to protest peacefully. The parents who brought their children were living by this right. They were not making an assumption that police would attack their babies, because they assumed that they still had the right to peacefully protest without being harmed by the government.

So in this sense, they really were living their ideals, living according to the rule of law. They were the victims of a lawbreaking police department. They therefore cannot be blamed for respecting and actually participating in rights guaranteed under the Constitution of the U.S.

Oh please, Reality. Look at the power structure in this country: Corporate ownership, media ownership, Pentagon, National Security State, the ones with all the money and guns. Do you really think they are run by Liberals? It's a clique of right wingers. How can you be such a Polly Anna? Where the fuck do you think propaganda systems come from?

And I really think you are out of line when using boring partisan terms like "Liberal" and "Conservative" at this web site. Those terms are completely irreleveant in the Real World, which you arrogantly claim to represent. Wake up. The rule of this nation is about blind power and control. And if you percieve hippies as Hitlerian propogandists, you are a blind fool.

The money worshipping Right Wing has never represented working people. Period. It is absurd to say otherwise. Workers are just another expense that cuts into their profit margin.

Maybe Reactionary would be a better term for the side you represent. You're no conservative. You, and the other trolls that come here are more state capitalist oriented, a.k.a. fascism. Like Mussolini institued. Do you ever complain about the hundreds of billions in subsidies, tax breaks, and give aways to corporations. Nah, you'd rather pick on a welfare mom.

To whore yourself for a violent power structure is weakness. To mock those that do stand up to it is madness. Maybe you should move to one of our puppet dictatorships in Central and South America, where the forces of Reaction can operate with impunity. Those lovely little capitalist dictatorships. You love capitalism don't you? They always need ignorant thugs to kill peasants down there. Try Columbia, things are really heating up there.

Do you know anything about US intervention around the world? Death squad diplomacy? CIA over throw of governments? I doubt it. Right now you're doing some Orwellian doublethink. We're the shining beacon of freedom in the world, right? That's what G.W. says so it must be true!

If you knew you'd be as outraged as I. And I am outraged. And informed. You are a fool, waving your made in China flag.

Good God! If that's not nessie's writing, nothing is.

I'm not even part of this conversation. But please don't insult me by talking about the evil USA, and then provide me an example of freedom as prescribed by anarchy by deleting entire posts and impeding freedom of speech regardless of the form by which it is being expressed. It doesn't wash.

And No, I'm not the one posting the crap you don't like. But if you can pull the trigger on those who say stuff you don't like, you'll eventually pull the trigger to murder people you don't like. I recall something about throwing the rich off a cliff and organizing to kill all those who you preceive as "oppressing" you at the same time on the same day around the world. So who supports Death Squads?

And when you begin to address and admit that the power around the world emminates from the Federal Reserve, the Bank of England, the Bank of Japan/Minister of Japan, and the Bundesbank, look me up, we'll talk. Last time I mentioned it you couldn't even admit that the populist in this country brought about their own destruction by demanding the US have a central bank. There's a book called "Secrets of the Temple: How the Federal Reserve Runs the Country" by William Greider that outlines the whole thing. Good read. Might learn something. I highly recommend.

In the meanwhile, quit cencoring. It makes the site look two-faced.

Mr. Brigg,
US interventionism is not a secret. It's well documented, by thousands of sources, millions maybe, including their own documents from the National Security Archives.

Stop trumpeting your own ignorance. Just because you don't know about it doesn't mean it's not true. It just means you're ignorant. Willfully so. That seems to be a right wing trait.

An easy little net search would lead you to tons of info about it that might even penetrate your doublthink. Any doofus outside of the US propoganda net knows we are imperialistic, and have been for over 100 years, minimum. (I'm excluding the Mexican War and the Indian Wars) Where have you been?

And for the record, to (approximately) quote a right winger/capitalist (Bob Novak) "Love your country, but never trust your government." That's how I feel. Can your pointy head grasp that? And to quote another right winger/thug (Trent Lott) "I will always support our troops, but I don't have to support our president."

Golfer, you unbridled fool. So, you think the Roman empire would be better because it was "queer friendly".

You dumbass, the term "faggot" comes from the human street lamps Nero hung around Rome to punish homosexuals. I can see you learned your history from a Penthouse film. Oh yeah, a society based on brutal adventurist militarism and rampant slavery vs. one where you will die of old age with most of your teeth still in your mouth. Hmmm, such a tough choice.

- And your comment of other empires being "classier" is a real hoot too. Yeah, those Nazi's sure had some snazi black leather outfits, didn't they? And how about those Chairman Mao manderin collars? And that snazzy eyewear that Kim Chong-il sports? You are truly a magnificent example of our government schools in action.

Even the British were classier. Now that's sad when you are less classy than those bozos. Sorry but McDonalds just doesn't seem so classy. There was a time once when the US was probably one of the classiest nations in history but the moment it became an empire it lost it. I'd say it happened in the 50s.

Golfer, yeah, I must be a "Polly Anna". Last night I did alot of soul-searching and came to the realization that it is all a vast right-wing conspiracy.

Liberals really do love us!

Bush is a very scared man. He probably wouldn't EVER show his face anywhere without it being secured by 'his people' for days in advance. I betcha a nickel he is a closet gay (aren't ALL republicans?). He's not a cowboy, at best he's a psuedo-cowboy. His grandfather helped the nazis. He claimed presidency by SELECTION; *Everything* he says someone else told him to say. He never choked on a pretzel.

This has been common sense version 4.20,
have a nice day.

Dog Bless America.

ka ka ka ka ka ka ka ka ka ka ka ka ka ka ka ka ka ka ka ka ka ka

Hey! I was being ironic about the empire stuff! And a smartass! Imperialism is bad, for God's sake.

I learned something about myself today: I am a communist. At least according to conservatives on a couple of websites I visit.
I visit these websites and attempt to engage in intelligent discourse. It is very difficult when "the other side" refuses to accept facts or even attempt to look at issues with an open mind.
I posted a link to an article by William Rivers Pitt on Truthout.com concerning the treatment of protesters in Portland, Oregon. The article describes how the protesters were mistreated. Now, all the conservatives on these websites I mention above would not address the CONTENT of his article. They resorted to attacking the source as not being credible. Fine, maybe he was a little biased (he wasn't in this instance but, unlike my counterparts on these sites, I have an open mind and can accept their criticism). So I took it a step further: I posted the link Buzzflash had to a site with pictures of the protest. Pictures are not biased. Pictures are not partisan. In these pictures the police were shown on one side of the barricade and the protesters on the other. The police were dousing the protesters with pepper spray and otherwise attacking them with no provocation.
The responses I received to the pictures were disheartening at best. 1) IF the pictures were real then certainly the protesters MUST have done something to provoke the police that was not captured in the pictures. 2) Th protesters should not have been there and got what they deserved.
These responses were from people who claim to be Americans. I'm sorry but no REAL American would support such treatment of citizens wishing to voice their opinion of our government.
The conservatives on these websites labeled me a communist because I choose to support the right of Americans to protest. Un-F'in-believable. I then realized the headache I had was from banging my head against the wall.

I am no expert concerning political doctrine but I do remember what the old communist USSR was like:
1) The power of the entire country was in the hands of a few men who did as they pleased with no input from or regard for their citizens. (Bush and the chosen few have taken it upon themselves to ignore the Constitution and rule as they see fit, the hell with congress or anyone else).
2) Everything was done in secret. Sound familiar? Cheney's secret energy meetings, Bush sealing numerous documents, Ashcroft refusing to provide info to congress, Cheney ordering Daschle NOT to investigate 9/11 etc, etc.
3) Government officials could designate anyone they chose as an "enemy of the state" and that person had NO recourse. Sound familiar? Bush and Ashcroft have taken it upon themselves to cleanse us of the evil within. From the Stasi TIPS program to Ashcroft's wish of internment camps for those of us who oppose his fascist tactics.
4) The communist doctrine called for world domination. Sound familiar? First Afghanistan, then Iraq, then whoever Bush decides is "evil" and must be replaced. I'm sure the next "evil one" will also have access to plenty of oil. Why have we given up on getting bin Laden? He has no oil? Bush and co. are incompetent? Or maybe if bin Laden were tried in open court too many dirty Bush secrets would be exposed. They are/were business partners after all. Oh, I'm sorry, I am not allowed to voice any opinion that will make Bush look bad. Here I am Ashcroft, come and get me.
5) Speaking out against the government was not allowed. Sound familiar? See events in Tampa, Minnesota and now Portland.

I'm sure I have left some things out but based on the above comparisons it seems to me that the commies are most definitely among us. Or rather, above us, in the highest echelons of what used to be our democratic government.

Another example of leftist thinking gone awry. Pictures certainly can be biased. In fact, in most cases they definately are. Pictures represent only a fraction of the story in most instances. While it may support your position, presenting a picture does not mean that your position is "matter of fact".

Protestors have a knack for getting unruly. Mob mentality sets in, and they push buttons that can set fires ablaze. If I'm in your face, shouting obscenities at you, I shouldn't be surprised when you cut loose and smack me. It doesn't matter who's right or wrong, as a protestor, you have a responsibility equal to that of the police to keep things under control. I don't care what you liberals rant, 99% of the time when the police cut loose on your gangs of protestors, the activists deserve it. The police are out there doing a job that the MAJORITY (as in Democracy, Democratic, Democrat, Left, Liberal...) of us appreciate. In most cases, we will pick them over you. We don't come to your place of employment and shout obscenities at you, so when you do it to them you're asking for trouble. There's a right way and a wrong way to express your freedom of speech. Learn how to temper that freedom with responsibility and you'll have a lot fewer run-ins with the Poh-lease to whine about.

Yes there is an actual threshold, several actually, which do indeed seem to be coming to bear. The courts seem to have awakened some from a slumber of late, how nice to see some federal appellate courts side with the explicit language of all things! The Constitution! Judges Keith and Kessler and all the others who have clarified that proceedings in all but proven special cases, immigration courts should be open, names and whereabouts, must be released. I thought to pause and give them a fresh round of applause.

Wondering too how long it will take those slower wits over in the "they will pry my gun outa my cold dead hands" crowd to realize they certainly don't want checkpoints, do they? HAHA. They can be some independent rascals alright. Oh my that would be George's largest constituency! Can't imagine why that might be significant. Just popped into my mind.

Yes indeedy the thresholds have been breached in statesmanship, environmental concerns, threatening to go against his own advisors in attacking another nation. I read the airstrikes in northern iraq have quadrupled in the last month. If that is so George has already begun this war, against all advisements to the contrary.

The methodologies employed by Ashcroft are rather fluffing the feathers of more than a few conservative groups, left and moderate civil libertarians are being joined by the chorus from the right, of all things. Hello, strange bedfellow! haha....(it is too funny to hear these conservative groups reps say "we must always remain vigilant in protection of civil liberties" These would be the same one's who would think nothing of playing around with the electoral process).

I had a rather unsettling thought however, about threshholds, if George has managed all this in 18 months, how far along will he be in 45 months, before the next election?

No matter how hard Bush and his gang are trying to change it, THIS IS STILL AMERICA. Read the first amendment, there's a little line in it about freedom of speech. I have the right (no matter what the anti-constitution right thinks) to voice my opinion. If I am yelling at a PROTEST rally then the police should have expected that. The conservatives here are saying the protesters should have expected to be attacked. Wrong answer. The police are supposed to protect and serve, not spray pepper into the faces of babies. Dittoheads like you are what's wrong with this country. If more people had the courage and conviction of the Portland protesters we wouldn't even be discussing this issue because Gore would have rightfully taken his place in the White House and we would actually be living in the America our forefathers, and my grandfather, died for. Instead, we are inching closer and closer to the fascist police state envisioned by Bush, Ashcroft and the rest of their business partners. Make no mistake - the ONLY thing Bush and company are interested in is power. You, me, babies, old people - we are just assets to be exploited to the hilt. Bush sacrificed 3000 on 9/11 to ensure the pipeline deal in Afghanistan. That, more than anything, is the measure of that.....man.

Regarding the police reacting naturally to having people in their faces, if there's one thing police should be capable of pulling off, it's ignoring people who are yelling at them. If no one attacks a cop, then they have no justification for using force on people.
But all that distracts from the actual issue, because if you watch the video and go to actual protests you'll see that the people did bring on the cop action. Not by yelling, but by blocking the street. The cops wanted to get three cars (that I could see on the video) through the people, the people weren't likely to move aside for cop cars (they're standing there to block to street, after all), so the cops hosed them down. They do it every time and they will continue to use whatever force they need to, anytime they think their current agenda is worth the potential media backlash against them (which they control as much as they can.)

The real questions for us are all tactical. How do we act effectively against the lines of cops, how do we organize people on the street quickly and get the noncombatants out of the way when our people on radios tell us trouble is coming up? How do we protect our medics? How secure are "anonymous" postings on this site? That's the shit we need to worry about, not WHY the cops do what they do.

"The police are supposed to protect and serve"

As I said in my post, they were. They were protecting and serving the majority, that which thinks you liberals have a tendency to go to far, could care less if you get your ass whipped if you do, and wish you would just shut the hell up. Cry all you like about your precious stolen election and inevitable "police state" coming to bare. You're guaranteed to right to whine to your hearts content (see the 1st Amendment).

"if there's one thing police should be capable of pulling off, it's ignoring people who are yelling at them."

Police are people, just like you or me. If I have pepper spray pointed in your face, and you start calling me a fascist pig, prepare to suffer. I'm not a cop, just a regular person.

"you'll see that the people did bring on the cop action. "

The truth will set you free, brother. Amen. Deal with that.

Please feel free to expound upon a system that you believe WILL work. I'm up for a few good chuckles this afternoon.

Just goes to show the hollow emptiness, propped up by nothingness, that is what you have to offer. Face it. The system will remain as-is, unchanged by the likes of you, until someone (obviously not you) has something better to offer us.

Wander back off to la-la-land now.

"Police are people, just like you or me. If I have pepper spray pointed in your face, and you start calling me a fascist pig, prepare to suffer. I'm not a cop, just a regular person. "

HUH?!?
police are TRAINED to handle different situations with different means. As in dispersing violent crowds with tear gas and batons. They are trained NOT to attack people who are just yelling in thier face because that would make them look like the nazi SS some of these far too leftist people make them out to be.

On another topic, I really havent found many people on this site that seems to have thier own set of thoughts. Everyone seems to lean completely one way or completely the other and have one school of thought or the other. No wonder none of you can agree on anything. We have the right wing conservatives who just hear what they want to hear and beleive whatever goes along with thier cause and we have the leftists who do the same exact thing. Think for yourselves people. Although admittedly, it's difficult due to the lies of the media and the oversensationalism of alot of situations that leftists websites and newsletters seem to spew. Find your middle ground and fuck the rest.

OK, enough is enough. It's time to grow up and choose sides. Do you choose the peaceful protestors who were scrupiously civl by all accounts? Or, do you remain ignorant and choose the jack-booted police in FULL RIOT GEAR PEPPER SPRAYING WOMEN AND CHILDREN!
Really, you closed-minded super-conservatives, what is it going to take? I do not understand how you can support a regime that does not even comment on the harming of women and children indiscrimantly just because they do not agree with its ideas. Really, do actually have any concrete reasons anymore or will you predictably throw out half-thought-out and recycled insults? Try to change the subject? Where is your humanity? Where is your heart? Where is your head?

America, this is the call we've been waiting for, do you see NOW that we need a regime change ... here? This madman Bush is tear-gassing his own citizens, he refuses to listen to the other side, he set himself up ILLEGALLY as President, he has allowed Ashcroft to shred our Constitution! Will the real patriots please stand up, please stand up ... and be counted.
Why is The Patriot Act not repealed yet? Why is there is still a Shadow government? What do they do who elected them who do they report to can we see what they are up to? Why are people being jailed without charges? Why hasn't there been an unbiased independent investigation into 9.11? Where is the proof Al Queda had ANYTHING to do with it? Really, how far down the toilet drain does the founding principles of this countrty have to be flushed before you SEE what is going on?
If we have to attack any country for terrorism, why aren't we jumping down Saudi Arabia's throat? The media is LYING to us! It is time we take this peaceful protest straight to Washington DC, millions of us. 150 million American citizens did NOT vote for Bush (out of approximately 200 million), so we outnumber these greedy powermongers! We have the power.
Thomas Jefferson himself said that we should have a peaceful revolution every ten (10) years, to keep the country fresh. I think we are way past due for such a revolution. Prove me wrong!

To see why this may be happening, see this site. Their very good theory is that we are empire building:
http://emperors-clothes.com/

DOES ANYONE ELSE THINK THIS PERSON IS TOTALLY CLUELESS? WHAT AN ASS!

Makes alot of sense to me Mr. All-caps. Can you point out specific any specific facts which are false and prove them?

Brigg, you miscontrue anti-capitalist critique when you impute to it the belief that the Fed Reserve serves the interests of all capitalists all the time.

The Fed is about maintaining systemic growth, which, under capitalism, means growth in profits. There are conflicting interests within the capitalist class, and no one policy serves all branches of capital equally. The Reagan Administration, under Volker, deliberately triggered a severe recession in the early 80s in order to wash away high-cost, low-profit manufacturers in an attempt to clear the way for a new round of accumulation. Low profits in the manufacturing sector laid the basis for the 70s downturn; both Carter and Reagan deregulated finance in the early 70s to open new avenues for profit-taking. What we got was increased conglomeration, more bubbles, more financial chaos, and, of course, the S and L crisis (a little something right-wingers and assorted neo-liberals never discuss because it reveals so much).

When you say that the Fed fights inflation, it would be more honest to say the Fed fights wage increases. It calibrates monetary policy, to a large degree, on maintaining a high enough unemployment rate that workers don't feel "empowered" to make wage demands. Unemployment keeps workers on their toes, and bosses in the drivers seat. You know that, Brigg.

Man, I really got it wrong! And all this time I thought the local police were answerable to the state (a LIBERAL state at that!) You guys all make it sound like they answered directly to Bush.

Morons.

I believe No one is right or wrong here.Having a Opinion is a right,I believe, and shouting matches against each others opinions makes us sound like fools. Rage pulls wool over ones eyes and no good will come from such conflicts; a exchange of ideas is good but no good will come from arguments. Fuel fire and forest shall burn....we don't have many forest left you know.

you see that post by the guy "reality", Great Divide? Well, he's what we call a troll. They post alot but don't really have anything to say. In this instance people are talking about the Federal Reserve. Someone says the Fed for short typing. The troll doesn't really read the posts; he just wants to argue. He sees 'Fed' and thinks 'police' cuz he hasn't read any of it - he's only scanned it for something to argue about. You have to learn to spot these people. The rest of us here, we debate, we exchange criticisms of ideas to see if they will hold up. This is constructive. You have to learn here to distinguish those who are silly brats from people who are serious. There's alot of intelligent debate going on here, you just need to be able to sift through some of the spam.

Hey cowboy, I wasn't talking about banking. I was responding the the idiotic statements above that Bush was responsible for the actions of the police when dealing with the protestors.

Learn to read and comprehend.

You self proclaimed "free-thinkers" are a riot! I love you guys!

I wish to eat you reality because you are tasty and hidden behind a wall....I love troll soup and troll burgers.....wait I can't forget about peanutbutter and troll sandwiches.Mmm..troll. Just as you hunt ones for sadistic harrasment I hunt people like you to fill my tummy because I enjoy the sight of green Sh*t. Grow up you damn wanker!

How about inserting some sweet and sour Israel-mythos from a time before writing existed! YUM-MEY! I just crave a second-helping of spoon-fed fantasy about the history of Israel! Like a delicate bowl of shark-fin soup, or famous currant pudding - its a miracle of mother nature! Everyone on earth should bow! Bend over and let Israel take care of things! The first and only nation in the world worthy of existing! Just like peach cobbler and ziplock bags!

I would like to thank everyone in Portland Oregon for their energy, commitment and most of all, COURAGE!!! If I ever get an opportunity to visit your beautiful city I know I will always be able to find friends. The scariest part of this whole thing is the absolute silence of the mainstream media. I hope Bush comes to Jersey...we'll kick his ass for everyone he hurt in Portland.

Are they local cops? Makes it hard to hold anyone accountable, doesn't it? Funny, since accountability seems to be such a backbone of so many of this administration's policies.

the video of this recent protest made me so very proud. i protested vietnam and the corruption of our government and as unbelievable as it is, find myself protesting still again. i applaud the courage of all those participating in this on-going struggle, over the same issues we struggled for in the 60's. This idiocy shouldn't be allowed to continue and i will remain one of those outside the "circle of sheep moving round and round, one behind the other, never looking up because they might be forced to think for themselves." i will continue to walk outside that circle and will look for each of you just around the bend and i will hope again for the will of the people to overcome this current strife and for peace to become the rule, not the exception.

Man, you guys never cease to amaze me. Still blaming Bush for the actions of the LOCAL POLICE of a LIBERAL STATE.

You think I'm a troll because I point out your faults?

Blind to the truth. Typical self-proclaimed "independents".

"At least 3000 people gathered in Portland today to protest President George Bush. Bush was visiting the state to spread LIES about forest health and SHAKE DOWN the local ruling class to raise BRIBE MONEY for regional CRIME LORD Senator Gordon Smith, who is the Republican incumbent for U.S. Senate"

This passes for INDEPENDENT media? Apparently making baseless accusations against the right is now the definition of independent.

This site is nothing more than a liberal propaganda machine.

I *love* liberal propaganda - the more the better!

my hat is off to the brave folks that filmed that flick.
kick the shrub off the continent!

TRADEBUSH.com
we send ´em Bush to do with as they like,
we get any s11 involvees for trial.

I could go on with the usual shit and say bush is in it for the oil ect ect. Short and sweet he's simply a dickhead looking to start a war because wars lift countries out of economic slumps and he aint got the brains to devise any sort of economic policy. This video shows what happens when people realise they got a warmongering conk in charge of their country, you think the demos were big for vietnam, ha lookout...

Maybe you should start by getting a permit to hold the protest in the first place. But a better question: why would you ruin your credibility with crap like this?

There is a difference between a protest, and a disturbance.

And by the way, a responsible parent knows that a protest is no place for their children. Grow up kids.

You people are a constant source of entertainment. Keep it up!