U.N. says NO massacre in Jenin

Of course, Israel never let U.N. inspectors into Jenin: U.N. inspections and humanitarian aid were stonewalled by Israel for weeks. Plenty of time to bulldoze any evidence.

Well, if you'd rather just stuff your fingers in your ears and believe what you want to believe, there is always that option, and you can use the fact that no official fact-finding UN mission set foot in Jenin -- although the report gathered material from other on-the-scene groups like Human Rights Watch, aid groups, UN agencies with personnel in the area, and from the PA (but not Israel) -- as your excuse to ignore the UN report.

@%<

The whitewash is truly a tribute to the Israeli propaganda machine. Hitler taught the Zionists well, however, a little clarification is needed on the word massacre.

One Israeli citizen killed by a suicide bomber at a bus stop is a massacre.

52 (to 500) Palestinians killed by an illegal occupying army is not a massacre.

3,000+ killed in the United States by terrorists is a massacre.

3,000+ killed by the United States in Afghanistan is collateral damage.

Hundreds of Kurds gassed to death by the Iraqi military (with full support of the U.S.) is a massacre (but only in retrospect).

500,000 children deaths resulting from various ailments directly attributable to the UN sanctions is "worth the price."

The death of hundreds in Kosovo by the Serbian security force is a massacre.

The deaths of hundreds in the Occupied Territories of Palestine is fighting terror and defending one's self.

Osama bin Laden and his coherts killing Afghan citizens (i.e. heathens) in the 1990s is a massacre

Osama bin Laden and his coherts killing Afghan citizens (i.e. commie supporters) in the 1980s is freedom fighting.

Please use this standard throughout your life. It is quite helpful, to say the least.

The whitewash is truly a tribute to the Israeli propaganda machine. Hitler taught the Zionists well, however, a little clarification is needed on the word massacre.

One Israeli citizen killed by a suicide bomber at a bus stop is a massacre.

52 (to 500) Palestinians killed by an illegal occupying army is not a massacre.

3,000+ killed in the United States by terrorists is a massacre.

3,000+ killed by the United States in Afghanistan is collateral damage.

Hundreds of Kurds gassed to death by the Iraqi military (with full support of the U.S.) is a massacre (but only in retrospect).

500,000 children deaths resulting from various ailments directly attributable to the UN sanctions is "worth the price."

The death of hundreds in Kosovo by the Serbian security force is a massacre.

The deaths of hundreds in the Occupied Territories of Palestine is fighting terror and defending one's self.

Osama bin Laden and his coherts killing Afghan citizens (i.e. heathens) in the 1990s is a massacre

Osama bin Laden and his coherts killing Afghan citizens (i.e. commie supporters) in the 1980s is freedom fighting.

Please use this standard throughout your life. It is quite helpful, to say the least.

The whitewash is truly a tribute to the Israeli propaganda machine. Hitler taught the Zionists well, however, a little clarification is needed on the word massacre.

One Israeli citizen killed by a suicide bomber at a bus stop is a massacre.

52 (to 500) Palestinians killed by an illegal occupying army is not a massacre.

3,000+ killed in the United States by terrorists is a massacre.

3,000+ killed by the United States in Afghanistan is collateral damage.

Hundreds of Kurds gassed to death by the Iraqi military (with full support of the U.S.) is a massacre (but only in retrospect).

500,000 children deaths resulting from various ailments directly attributable to the UN sanctions is "worth the price."

The death of hundreds in Kosovo by the Serbian security force is a massacre.

The deaths of hundreds in the Occupied Territories of Palestine is fighting terror and defending one's self.

Osama bin Laden and his coherts killing Afghan citizens (i.e. heathens) in the 1990s is a massacre

Osama bin Laden and his coherts killing Afghan citizens (i.e. commie supporters) in the 1980s is freedom fighting.

Please use this standard throughout your life. It is quite helpful, to say the least.

Have you conveniently forgot that Israel kept everyone - EVERYONE - from Jenin for DAYS?

NO journalists, no international aid agencies (for God's sake), no international observers, and NO U.N. observers, NONE were allowed in, as Israeli bulldozers and trucks worked their magic in Jenin. Many people are still listed as "missing" (as well as many more who have been "arrested" by Israel in their own land, occupied by Israel.).

Of course you cannot say a massacre occurred if you are not allowed in to confirm it. Makes sense, doesn't it? If Israel was on the up and up, they would have allowed journalists in, even accompanied by Israeli military, to PROVE IMMEDIATELY and counteract any charges of "coverup". Didn't happen. Probably for good reason. There WAS a coverup.

I remind you that according to Amnesty International (http://www.amnesty.org), 56 Palestinian homes were bulldozed at 2 AM, without notice, on January 10th in the West Bank, near the border with Egypt. The families were sleeping, for Christ's sake, when these monster Israeli machines started "eating" their houses. Can you imagine the children, TERRORIZED, wetting their pants, wide eyed, running screaming from their homes? NO NOTICE.

Was SOMEONE in the families a "terrorist"? No. They did not have an Israeli "building permit". That was their only crime. No other. A building permit that Israel never issues, on their own land. (Unless you are a Jewish settler, building permits are not a problem. Non-Jew, problem). This does not get reported by our Western press. And it is not an uncommom occurence. Israel uses "terrrorism" to describe a people fighting against the terror of colonial occupation.

The dead dude rolled off the cart they were using to carry him with at his own funeral procession. Then he stood up and jumped back on it. The Palestinians are fakers and liars, not to mention murdering sons-of-bitches.

http://www.factsofisrael.com/blog/archives/000012.html

While YOU are plugging orifices, remember to get your pie-hole.

Have you conveniently forgot that Israel kept everyone - EVERYONE - from Jenin for DAYS?

NO journalists, no international aid agencies (for God's sake), no international observers, and NO U.N. observers, NONE were allowed in, as Israeli bulldozers and trucks worked their magic in Jenin. Many people are still listed as "missing" (as well as many more who have been "arrested" by Israel in their own land, occupied by Israel.).

Of course you cannot say a massacre occurred if you are not allowed in to confirm it. Makes sense, doesn't it? If Israel was on the up and up, they would have allowed journalists in, even accompanied by Israeli military, to PROVE IMMEDIATELY and counteract any charges of "coverup". Didn't happen. Probably for good reason. There WAS a coverup.

I remind you that according to Amnesty International (http://www.amnesty.org), 56 Palestinian homes were bulldozed at 2 AM, without notice, on January 10th in the West Bank, near the border with Egypt. The families were sleeping, for Christ's sake, when these monster Israeli machines started "eating" their houses. Can you imagine the children, TERRORIZED, wetting their pants, wide eyed, running screaming from their homes? NO NOTICE.

Was SOMEONE in the families a "terrorist"? No. They did not have an Israeli "building permit". That was their only crime. No other. A building permit that Israel never issues, on their own land. (Unless you are a Jewish settler, building permits are not a problem. Non-Jew, problem). This does not get reported by our Western press. And it is not an uncommom occurence. Israel uses "terrrorism" to describe a people fighting against the terror of colonial occupation.

Have you conveniently forgot that Israel kept everyone - EVERYONE - from Jenin for DAYS?

NO journalists, no international aid agencies (for God's sake), no international observers, and NO U.N. observers, NONE were allowed in, as Israeli bulldozers and trucks worked their magic in Jenin. Many people are still listed as "missing" (as well as many more who have been "arrested" by Israel in their own land, occupied by Israel.).

Of course you cannot say a massacre occurred if you are not allowed in to confirm it. Makes sense, doesn't it? If Israel was on the up and up, they would have allowed journalists in, even accompanied by Israeli military, to PROVE IMMEDIATELY and counteract any charges of "coverup". Didn't happen. Probably for good reason. There WAS a coverup.

I remind you that according to Amnesty International (http://www.amnesty.org), 56 Palestinian homes were bulldozed at 2 AM, without notice, on January 10th in the West Bank, near the border with Egypt. The families were sleeping, for Christ's sake, when these monster Israeli machines started "eating" their houses. Can you imagine the children, TERRORIZED, wetting their pants, wide eyed, running screaming from their homes? NO NOTICE.

Was SOMEONE in the families a "terrorist"? No. They did not have an Israeli "building permit". That was their only crime. No other. A building permit that Israel never issues, on their own land. (Unless you are a Jewish settler, building permits are not a problem. Non-Jew, problem). This does not get reported by our Western press. And it is not an uncommom occurence. Israel uses "terrrorism" to describe a people fighting against the terror of colonial occupation.

"Unfortunately, these obligations were not met. Human Rights Watch's research demonstrates that, during their incursion into the Jenin refugee camp, Israeli forces committed serious violations of international humanitarian law, some amounting prima facie to war crimes."

OK, let's see WAR CRIMES were committed, but no massacre. Say, is that six or half a dozen?

"Due to the dense urban setting of the refugee camp, fighters and civilians were never at great distances. Civilian residents of the camp described days of sustained missile fire from helicopters hitting their houses. Some residents were forced to flee from house to house seeking shelter, while others were trapped by the fighting, unable to escape to safety, and were threatened by a curfew that the IDF enforced with lethal force, using sniper fire. Human Rights Watch documented instances in which soldiers converted civilian houses into military positions, and confined the inhabitants to a single room. In other instances, civilians who attempted to flee were expressly told by IDF soldiers that they should return to their homes."

Civilians REPORTING that they were DIRECTLY targeted by the IDF, hmmmm. War crimes, yes. A massacre, of course not silly!

"Despite these close quarters, the IDF had a legal duty to distinguish civilians from military targets. At times, however, IDF military attacks were indiscriminate, failing to make this distinction"

Indiscriminate targeting of civilians. Yet, NO MASSACRE????

"The IDF used armored bulldozers to demolish residents' homes....The damage to Jenin camp by missile and tank fire and bulldozer destruction has shocked many observers. At least 140 buildings-most of them multi-family dwellings-were completely destroyed in the camp, and severe damage caused to more than 200 others has rendered them uninhabitable or unsafe...The damage to Jenin camp by missile and tank fire and bulldozer destruction has shocked many observers. At least 140 buildings-most of them multi-family dwellings-were completely destroyed in the camp, and severe damage caused to more than 200 others has rendered them uninhabitable or unsafe."

Well, golly, destroying peoples homes doesn't seem to shock Human Rights Watch, only SOME observers.

"The harm from this destruction was aggravated by the inadequate warning given to civilian residents. Although warnings were issued on multiple occasions by the IDF, many civilians only learned of the risk as bulldozers began to crush their houses. Jamal Fayid, a thirty-seven-year-old paralyzed man, was killed when the IDF bulldozed his home on top of him, refusing to allow his relatives the time to remove him from the home"

Bulldozing a house with a parlyzed man inside. The IDF deserves medals for bravery and valor for that one.

"Sixty-five-year-old Muhammad Abu Saba`a had to plead with an IDF bulldozer operator to stop demolishing his home while his family remained inside; when he returned to his half-demolished home, he was shot dead by an Israeli soldier."

So, the IDF bulldozes his house with his family inside. When he returns, he is shot dead in cold blood. BUT HEY, THIS WASN'T A MASSACRE. Right Human Rights Watch and Justiceman and Koe????

"Human Rights Watch has confirmed that at least fifty-two Palestinians were killed as a result of IDF operations in Jenin. This figure may rise as rescue and investigative work proceeds, and as family members detained by Israel are located or released. Due to the low number of people reported missing, Human Rights Watch does not expect this figure to increase substantially. At least twenty-two of those confirmed dead were civilians, including children, physically disabled, and elderly people"

At least 52 dead, of which at least 22 were civilians,including children, physically diabled, and elderly people. BUT NOT A MASSACRE, RIGHT????

"Human Rights Watch found no evidence to sustain claims of massacres or large-scale extrajudicial executions by the IDF in Jenin refugee camp"

HOW THE FUCK DOES HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH DEFINE A MASSACRE? Hi, we saw houses bulldozed with people inside, we said an elderly man shot as he returned to his home, we saw children murdered, BUT NO EVIDENCE OF A MASSACRE. WHAT THE FUCK?????

"many of the civilian deaths documented by Human Rights Watch amounted to unlawful or willful killings by the IDF."

Unlawful and willful killing, but NOT A MASSACRE?????

"Among the civilian deaths were those of Kamal Zgheir, a fifty-seven-year-old wheelchair-bound man who was shot and run over by a tank on a major road outside the camp on April 10, even though he had a white flag attached to his wheelchair; fifty-eight year old Mariam Wishahi, killed by a missile in her home on April 6 just hours after her unarmed son was shot in the street; Jamal Fayid, a thirty-seven-year old paralyzed man who was crushed in the rubble of his home on April 7 despite his family's pleas to be allowed to remove him; and fourteen-year-old Faris Zaiban, who was killed by fire from an IDF armored car as he went to buy groceries when the IDF-imposed curfew was temporarily lifted on April 11."

But as least it WASN'T A MASSACRE?????? Wheelchair bound man with a white flag run over by a tank! Unarmed man shot! Women killed by a missile in her home! Paralyzed man crushed in the rubble of his home! 14 year old shot as he attempts to buy groceries. Hey thank God this wasn't a MASSACRE, though.

"Some of the cases documented by Human Rights Watch amounted to summary executions, a clear war crime, such as the shooting of Jamal al-Sabbagh on April 6. Al-Sabbagh was shot to death while directly under the control of the IDF: he was obeying orders to strip off his clothes. In at least one case, IDF soldiers unlawfully killed a wounded Palestinian, Munthir al-Haj, who was no longer carrying a weapon, his arms were reportedly broken, and he was taking no active part in the fighting."

Again, we can be thankful, though, that this does not amount to a MASSACRE.

"Throughout the incursion, IDF soldiers used Palestinian civilians to protect them from danger, deploying them as "human shields" and forcing them to perform dangerous work."

Oh, this wasn't a massacre, though.

"Human Rights Watch has so far found no evidence that Palestinian gunmen forced Palestinian civilians to serve as human shields during the attack."

No, but they did find that the IDF used Palestinians as human shields. Luckily, this was not a MASSACRE, though.

"During "Operation Defensive Shield," the IDF blocked the passage of emergency medical vehicles and personnel to Jenin refugee camp for eleven days, from April 4 to April 15. During this period, injured combatants and civilians in the camp as well as the sick had no access to emergency medical treatment."

MASSACRE, did someone say something about a MASSACRE? HRW can not find any evidence of a MASSACRE.

Thank you Human Rights Watch, you have clarified everything for us now. We now know that killing women, children, the unarmed, the paralyzed, the elderly, and other civilians does not constitute a massacre.

According to my dictionary, though, a massacre is "the act or an instance of killing a large number of humans indiscriminately and cruelly."

Sorry for my confusion, I just assumed that the IDFs killing of a large number of humans (at least 52 and perhaps as many as 500) indiscriminately and cruelly (as noted in the HRW report) was a MASSACRE. Oops MY MISTAKE.

That War Crimes Report

http://hrw.org/reports/2002/israel3/israel0502-01.htm#P49_1774

Calls for International Investigation and Security of Site

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
April 30, 2002

Contact: Barbara Ayotte, (617) 695-0041 ext 210/(617) 549-0152 cell
bayotte [at] phrusa.org
http://www.phrusa.org

A preliminary forensic assessment released today by Physicians for Human Rights (PHR-USA) of deaths and injuries in the Jenin Refugee Camp (full report http://www.phrusa.org/research/mneutrality/report_043002.html) raised several serious issues, including those relating to the shooting of civilians and access to medical care. PHR (USA) believes that these issues warrant an investigation to determine the exact circumstances relating to them. The group reinforced the need today for a thorough, objective, and comprehensive investigation (including a forensic component) of the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) operation in Jenin and its refugee camp that commenced on or about April 3, 2002. PHR (USA) called on the Government of Israel to allow in a UN fact-finding team without delay.

PHR (USA) also strongly advised that security at the site be an immediate priority. A trained, politically neutral force should be quickly deployed to Jenin camp to secure the perimeter of the site and stop the haphazard removal of remains and personal property from the rubble. Unexploded ordnance in the area is continuing to endanger civilians and local authorities at the site. PHR (USA) believes that a substantive and thorough investigation will be impeded as long as the site is left unsecured by an outside force.

"Of particular concern to any future fact finding effort is the lack of any centralized control over the location itself, the extraction of bodies, and the collection of evidence and witness names, and statements," said Leonard S. Rubenstein, Executive Director of PHR (USA). "For any team to thoroughly document the incidents in Jenin, they must have independence, unfettered access to all locations, witnesses, lists of victims and medical records, physical and documentary information (including videotape, photographs, and audio tapes) compiled by local inhabitants; and adequate resources such as personnel, logistical support, storage space and forensic experts."

The PHR team's preliminary assessment is based on observations, information received from individuals, and 102 medical records that were reviewed at the Jenin Governmental Hospital. PHR (USA) received no response to its requests for meetings with representatives of the Israeli government. This assessment is by no means a comprehensive accounting of deaths and injuries in Jenin, but it is intended to serve as an initial assessment of the situation.

The team was unable to determine the exact context and chain of events that led to the injuries and deaths reported in this preliminary assessment. Until a thorough and impartial investigation takes place, factual and legal conclusions about responsibility cannot be reached.

The following information collected by the PHR team warrants such an investigation:

Nearly 95% of injuries during the recent IDF incursions into Jenin and the Jenin Refugee Camp were treated or examined at the Jenin Governmental Hospital. The hospital treated a total of 102 patients between April 3-22, 2002. As of April 23, the hospital had processed 45 fatalities.

According to hospital records reviewed by PHR (USA), over 50% of all admissions were women, children under 15 years, men over 50 years, including a two year old child presenting with crush injuries. 12.7% of the patients were over the age of 50 years. 18.7% of the patients were women. Children under 15 years, women and men over the age of 50 accounted for nearly 38% of all reported fatalities.

One out of three reported fatalities was due to gunshot wounds with a vast majority sustaining fatal wounds of the head, or head and upper torso. In addition, several of those injured reported that they were either shot by Israel Defense Force (IDF) snipers or by IDF soldiers from helicopter gunships. Shrapnel injuries and blast injuries accounted for nearly 32% of all admissions. In addition 13 admissions were civilians suffering severe soft tissue trauma reported by the patients to have resulted from their being beaten by IDF soldiers.

Eleven percent of the total reported fatalities were due to crush injuries in addition to a 55-year -old male crushed by a tank in the township of Jenin.

Patients and hospital staff allege that serious damage and gunfire was inflicted on the Jenin Governmental Hospital and medical vehicles were destroyed. Preliminary examination of the facilities by the PHR team shows the presence of destroyed medical vehicles and some damage to the hospital.

Over two-third of reported fatalities examined came from the Jenin Refugee Camp with over 20% from neighboring villages. 11% of the reported fatalities were from the township of Jenin.

Some patients have been unable to receive timely access to medical care regardless of the severity of their injury. In some instances, the injured reported that they were unable to access medical assistance as much as seven days after sustaining life-threatening injuries. Nearly all of the remaining patients still housed at Jenin Governmental Hospital reported delays ranging from 3-7 days.

The Jenin Governmental Hospital and its staff are currently unable to accommodate an investigation because of a lack of appropriate infrastructure and adequately trained personnel. Work, autopsy, and storage space as well as storage and retrieval specialists are needed to examine evidence and ensure its integrity.

An attempt to identify bodies that remain unidentified must be made. Identification can be facilitated by total body X-rays, X-rays of the teeth, and a three inch segment of the thigh lobe to be used for mitochondrial DNA comparisons.

The PHR (USA) assessment team was composed of Dr. William Haglund, Director of PHR (USA)'s International Forensic Program; Dr. Nizam Peerwani, Chief Medical Examiner, Tarrant County, Texas and a Senior Forensic Consultant to PHR (USA); and Col. Brenda Hollis (USAF-ret.), an attorney, senior investigative and legal consultant to the Institute for International Criminal Investigations and Senior Forensic Consultant to PHR (USA).

---

Founded in 1986, Physicians for Human Rights (PHR)(USA) mobilizes the health professions to promote health by protecting human rights. The International Forensic Program of PHR has conducted scientific investigations in over a dozen countries, including several efforts in Rwanda and the former Yugoslavia on behalf of International Criminal Tribunals. PHR shared the 1997 Nobel Peace Prize for its role as a founding member of the International Campaign to Ban Landmines.

[April 4, 2002] ... International civil society, particularly its medical component, must do what the Palestinian and Israeli political and military leadership has failed to do: articulate and defend the rights of besieged communities on both sides. The problems are not limited to the traumas associated with bombings, the shelling of civilian areas by helicopters and tanks, or other direct assaults. A shameful toll of suffering and death is silently exacted by total curfews, arbitrary refusals at checkpoints, interruption of vital services and supplies to hospitals, and other measures that effectively bar infants, pregnant women, the elderly and the chronically ill from access to what is often desperately needed life-sustaining treatment. The interruption of electricity to large sections of Ramallah cripples both water pumping and sewage pumping stations that serve tens of thousands of civilians. This creates a public health crisis that must be ended at once.

We therefore call upon our medical colleagues in Israel, West Bank, Gaza and around the world to:

1. Denounce the violations of medical neutrality and human rights of Palestinians, including attacks on non-combatants, obstructions of food and medical supplies, and interference with medical personnel, facilities and transport, by the Israeli Defense Forces.
2. Denounce suicide bombings by Palestinian militants against noncombatant innocent Israeli civilians.
3. Demand that the international community take affirmative steps toward protecting the rights of Palestinians within their own state and of Israelis to live within secure borders.
4. Urge their professional medical associations and institutions to make similar pronouncements and appeals.

Please print the names of the 500 Palestinians killed in this masacre. Right after that, you can name the real killers of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman.

56 Palestinians killed -about half of them combatants. Those same combatants dressed as civilians and hiding amongst civilians.

Over 20 Israeli soldiers killed - they weren't killed by little old ladies, were they?

The IDF did not have to go house-by-house, they did so at great cost to themselves to minimize civilian casusalites.

As for the other bullsh*t mentioned - don't even get me started on Herold's '3000' civilians killed in Afghanistan. The fact that you record Taliban press releases in Microsoft Excel, doesn't make you authoritative. It just leaves you a woman's studies professor at a 2nd rate state school with a bad comb-over to boot.

But whether there was a massacre or not, matters no more to the readers here than whether Mumia Jamal killed P.O. Faulkner. It's beside the point, isn't it?

Dumbasses.

Liars.

Dumbasses.

The Big Lie technique has its limits, including the "massacre" at Jenin, endlessly hyped by Britain's yellow press and various "human rights" outfits. Even the U.N., which is notorious for anti-Israel bias, now says it didn't happen. "A U.N. report on Israel's military attack on a Palestinian refugee camp does not back up claims of a massacre, but it does criticize both sides for putting civilians in harm's way," the Associated Press reports.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,59276,00.html

Reuters adds an anti-Israel spin to the same story: "A new U.N. report on Israel's attack on a Palestinian refugee camp AVOIDS calling the episode a massacre" (emphasis mine).

http://www.reuters.com/news_article.jhtml?type=worldnews&StoryID=1278415

The same day word of the report came out, the far-left site Counterpunch.org posted an article cheering an effort by some European academics to boycott Israeli institutions. In what would stand as an example of atrocious timing if the Counterpunchers cared a fig for the truth in the first place, the article, by one M. Shahid Alam, begins (again, emphasis mine): "In early April 2002, MOVED BY THE MASSACRES IN JENIN and the wanton destruction of civilian infrastructure in West Bank cities by invading Israeli forces, two British academics, Hilary Rose and Steven Rose, circulated a call . . . for an academic boycott of Israel."

http://www.counterpunch.org/alam0731.html

Hamas, of course, has done the Roses one better by actually bombing an Israeli university. Ha'aretz quotes a Dutch foreign-exchange student at Hebrew University: "Three professors from Amsterdam University, where I study, signed a petition last week calling for cutting off all contacts with the Hebrew University because of the occupation. I wonder what they're thinking now."

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=192935

I wonder_IF_they're thinking now.

The Israeli-U.S.-Kincaid Standard missed a few points

-Germans rounding up Jews, forcing them into concentration camps, and murdering them is genocide.

-Jews rounding up Arabs, forcing them into concentration camps, and terrorizing them with tanks, bulldozers, helicopters, and missiles is "self-defense."

-War crimes committed in Bosnia are aggressively condemned and prosecuted, even with less than 52 people killed.

-War crimes committed by Israel are laughingly dismissed.

Thanks Pat, I've got it now!

"Hamas, of course, has done the Roses one better by actually bombing an Israeli university. "

Well aside formt he fact that I have read that the Roses were jewish, or at least that Stephen Rose was, I am just dumbfounded with your strange ways of somehow equating the ideas of the Roses (an academic boycott [although I disagree with it] in order to end the occupation and push for peace with the ideas of hamas (A radical Palestinian faction of extremists aimed at killing as many infidels on their way to destroying the state of Israel).

Again though its not like you're going to respond though, I just though i should try to help a buddy out.

"The Big Lie technique has its limits," I wrote earlier on the U.N. report debunking claims of an Israeli massacre at Jenin. Maybe I was too optimistic. Refusing to admit they were wrong, those who assailed Israel for the massacre that wasn't are now piling on the U.N. A Human Rights Watch press release calls the U.N. report "seriously flawed," a claim London's far-left Independent picks up. "Israel Is Still Wanted for Questioning," proclaims the Guardian, another leftist Brit rag. The Arab News opts for Clintonian evasion: "The dictionary gives no specific number of dead that is required to constitute a massacre."

http://www.humanrightswatch.org/press/2002/08/jenin080202.htm

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=320656

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4474082,00.html

http://www.arabnews.com/Article.asp?ID=17457

The Jerusalem Post reports that "the UN General Assembly plans to hold an emergency session on the plight of the Palestinians . . . and consider a draft resolution that condemns Israeli actions in Jenin."

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1027506435587

If the General Assembly ends up endorsing the phony massacre claim, it will go down in history alongside the Indiana House of Representatives. As Snopes.com notes, in 1897 that august body "unanimously passed a measure redefining the area of a circle and the value of pi." That bill--the text is below--died in the Senate.

http://snopes2.com/religion/pi.htm

http://www.cs.unb.ca/%7Ealopez-o/math-faq/mathtext/node18.html

If the killing of a dozen Israelis on a bus can be called a massacre, the killing of a much larger number of Palestinian in Jenin is a much larger massacre.

Of course, since UN investigators were denied access or cooperation from the murderous Israelis, and since they never even visited Jenin, any such reports has limitations.

The IDF banned all reporters and photographers from the area of the massacre for a couple weeks––while they were covering up the evidence. This same kind of total control of the killing area is not the kind of stuff that Palestinian suicide bombers can get away with.

In Jenin, no one will ever know how many Palestinian were killed, how many bodies burried, and how many capture freedom fighters disappeared after being taken away in IDF trucks.

Free Palestine

No one will know how many terrorists died in Jenin... So what??? Was it 30, was it 50? Who cares?
They got their little war, and now they are whining about it.

All decent, moral people.

"Battles raged in Lebanon's largest refugee camp yesterday between Islamist gunmen and members of the Palestinian president Yasser Arafat's Fatah faction," the Scotsman reports. "The violence, the worst in a decade, left two people dead and at least seven wounded."

An editorial in the Lebanon Daily Star calls for Beirut to "act quickly and decisively" against Palestinian terrorists:

The larger question is why a refugee camp is filled with weapons of all kinds. This enormous cache has been overlooked by the authorities because it is supposed to be used to protect Palestinians from possible Israeli aggression. But if the weapons are turned against other Palestinians or Lebanese, the state's rationale of noninterference must be addressed.

http://www.thescotsman.co.uk/international.cfm?id=888062002

Of course, this is just the sort of problem Israel faced in Jenin--except that the terrorists there were targeting Israeli civilians rather than fighting among themselves. If Lebanon follows the Daily Star's advice and cracks down on Palestinian terrorism, will there be an international outcry as there was after Jenin? Don't hold your breath.

so much for the theory Arafat does nothing to stop terrorists.

"If the killing of a dozen Israelis on a bus can be called a massacre, the killing of a much larger number of Palestinian in Jenin is a much larger massacre."

??
Even if the man killed were killed during gun battles? Is that a massacre? Is a victory over a bunch of people planning terrorist attacks a massacre?

How can you juxtepose killing 17 civilians including children on a civilian bus, and gun battles with an armed enemy?

You call yourself moral? on what grounds?

Letter From Israel
by Ran HaCohen
Antiwar.com

August 14, 2002

The UN from Qana to Jenin
Why the Secretary General's Report Cannot Be Trusted

Last week, UN Secretary General Kofi Annan released a report on Israel's attack on Jenin in April. A reminder of the highlights: After
two weeks of heavy fighting in Jenin's refugee camp, journalists and human rights organisations (including Human Rights Watch and
Amnesty International), who visited Jenin, unearthed numerous accounts of atrocities. Some 150 houses demolished, sometimes with
their inhabitants inside. Civilians used as human shields. Extrajudicial killings. A Palestinian nurse in full uniform shot through the
heart while trying to tend a wounded man. A fourteen-year-old shot dead by an Israeli tank while shopping. A woman killed when
Israeli soldiers blew open the door of her house as she tried to open it for them. A man shot dead in his wheelchair. And so on.

That's the controversial part. Uncontroversial is what followed: UN Security Council unanimously adopted a resolution to send a
fact-finding team to Jenin (19/4). Israel promised to co-operate. Annan established a fact-finding team and instructed it to proceed to
the area. Now Israel expressed concerns related to the composition of the team, the scope of its mandate, how this mandate would be
carried out, various procedural matters, etc. etc. Negotiations took place and Annan seemed to satisfy Israel's demands. Finally (30.4),
the Israeli Cabinet issued a statement saying that as long as its terms have not been met, "it will not be possible for the clarification
process to begin." It didn't bother to say what those terms were; but on the phone with Annan, Israeli officials broached additional
issues to those raised before and indicated that this list might not be exhaustive. Following this, Annan disbanded the team (3/5),
ordered a report without visiting the scene, and addressed letters to the Israel and to the Palestinians, requesting them to submit
relevant information. Israel didn't respond even to this request. All along, then, Israel's very conduct clearly indicated it had a lot to
hide.

Now the UN finally released its report, based entirely on evidence from secondary sources, written comfortably in Geneva. Human
rights groups immediately blamed the report of being "seriously flawed"; Israel's government, naturally, welcomed it. The
Independent noted that the report was "carefully worded not to give offence to Israel or its allies. It deliberately draws no conclusions,
but only compiles evidence from various sources."

Whom Should We Trust?

Since we cannot deal here with all the issues at stake, let's examine just one: that of demolishing houses with their inhabitants inside.
The UN report says:

"IDF also used armoured bulldozers, supported by tanks, to demolish portions of the camp. The Government of Israel maintains that
'IDF forces only destroyed structures after calling a number of times for inhabitants to leave buildings, and from which the shooting
did not cease'. Witness testimonies and human rights investigations allege that the destruction was both disproportionate and
indiscriminate, some houses coming under attack from the bulldozers before their inhabitants had the opportunity to evacuate."

So were innocent inhabitants given time to leave, or not? The UN gives both sides equal space (24 words), and takes no stand. Israel
"maintains" they were, whereas witnesses (surely Palestinian) and human rights investigations "allege" they were not.

Perhaps We Cannot Know?

Yes we can. We know very well. And the UN knows, or could know, if it bothered to simply read Israel's most selling daily, Yedioth
Achronot, on 31.5. Not a very clandestine source. An Israeli D-9 bulldozer driver, one Moshe Nissim from Jerusalem, described there
in detail what he himself had done in Jenin. Here:

"For three days, I just destroyed and destroyed. The whole area. Any house that they fired from came down. And to knock it down, I
tore down some more. They were warned by loudspeaker to get out of the house before I come, but I gave no one a chance. I didn't
wait. I didn't give one blow, and wait for them to come out. I would just ram the house with full power, to bring it down as fast as
possible. I wanted to get to the other houses. To get as many as possible.

"Many people where inside houses we started to demolish. They would come out of the houses we where working on. I didn't see,
with my own eyes, people dying under the blade of the D-9. And I didn't see house falling down on live people. But if there were any,
I wouldn't care at all. I am sure people died inside these houses, but it was difficult to see, there was lots of dust everywhere, and we
worked a lot at night. I found joy with every house that came down, because I knew they didn't mind dying, but they cared for their
homes. If you knocked down a house, you buried 40 or 50 people for generations. If I am sorry for anything, it is for not tearing the
whole camp down."

So an evidence of an Israeli soldier clearly affirms allegations of human rights organisations and refute the claims of the Israeli
Government. The report presented by Kofi Annan is unreasonably biased in favour of Israel, at least on this crucial point. Why? To
understand that, we'll have to go six years back in time. It's an obvious link; strange that nobody seems to remember it. Amazing how
quickly things are forgotten when they contradict our mental set.

The Massacre of Qana

We're precisely six years before Jenin, on 18.4.1996. It is "Operation Grapes of Wrath", conducted by PM Shimon Peres and "Defence"
Minister Ehud Barak. The headquarters compound of the Fijian battalion of the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL)
come under fire by Israeli artillery. At the time, more than 800 Lebanese have sought refuge inside the compound, which is located in
the village of Qana. An estimated 100 persons are killed and a larger number wounded, including four UN soldiers.

Israel, obviously, claims that it was just an accident; that it was not aware of the large number of Lebanese civilians in the compound;
that it had no aircraft flying above the area before or during the shelling. UN Secretary General Boutros Boutros-Ghali orders an
investigation, headed by Dutch military advisor Major-General Franklin van Kappen.

Van Kappen's report dismisses Israel's outrageous claim about not being aware of civilians, reminding that a UN compound was not a
legitimate target, whether or not civilians were in it. Moreover, the report stated clearly that "The distribution of point impact
detonations and air bursts makes it improbable that impact fuses and proximity fuses were employed in random order, as stated by
the Israeli forces" and that "Contrary to repeated denials, two Israeli helicopters and a remotely piloted vehicle were present in the
Qana area at the time of the shelling."

How very different from the present report on Jenin! A clear-cut conclusion, stated in a diplomatic language, but in so many words
saying that Israel shelled and killed on purpose the 100 Lebanese civilians seeking refuge in the UN compound.

And what happened then? Well, the US urged the Secretary General not to publish the incriminating report. SG Boutros-Ghali
insisted. The Clinton administration put pressure on the UN to soften the language, hoping to turn it into a useless
"Israel-maintains-this-and-others-allege-that" kind of paper like the one on Jenin. Boutros-Ghali refused, and published the
embarrassing report as is. It was on the 7th of May, 1996.

US Imposes Reshuffle

A week later, on the 13th of May, US Secretary of State Warren Christopher met Secretary General Boutros-Ghali at his official
residence in New York. He informed him of the definite US decision that it would veto his re-election. Boutros-Ghali later said this was
the first time he had any direct indication from the US that it was unhappy with him. Boutros-Ghali told Christopher that he hoped
the US would change its mind. It didn't. Though Boutros-Ghali was supported unanimously by the African countries as well as by
France, China, Russia, Germany, Japan and many European countries, the US vetoed his re-election, threatening African countries
that loyalty to Boutros-Ghali would destroy the chances of Africa to retain the Secretary General's post for a second term, and
threatening the UN not to pay the US assessments if Boutros Ghali remained. Finally, the US imposed the election of Kofi Annan and
did away with Boutros-Ghali, described as "too independent" and "difficult to control".

This is how SG Annan was elected, and this is the background against which his report on Jenin should be read. The US did a good
bargain: Annan is not Boutros-Ghali. When Israel showed reluctance towards the fact-finding team, Annan quickly lent it a hand and
disbanded the team. Then, without visiting the scene, Annan issued a shameful report, echoing Israeli propaganda, ignoring even
"embarrassing" material published in the Israeli press. Considering the background of his own election, Annan can hardly be expected
to have behaved differently. The issue here is not personal: it is how the US runs the world.

So whom should we trust on the Jenin events? Human rights organisations and journalists who visited the scene, and whose report of
war crimes and atrocities are corroborated even by the evidence of an Israeli soldier – or rather a Geneva-based UN report of Kofi
Annan, the man who replaced a predecessor "too independent" regarding the Israeli massacre in Qana? Decide for yourself.

me inquires "How can you juxtepose killing 17 civilians including children on a civilian bus, and gun battles with an armed enemy?
You call yourself moral? on what grounds?"

Albert Einstein said that "Peace cannot be achieved through violence, it can only be attained through understanding."

me, how can you not juxtepose the killing of a greater number on innocent civilians (not only combatants were killed) in Jenin than in your bus incident example. That is simply racism.

It seems that you should check your own moral compass before questioning mine.

Rene,

In Jenin there was a battle between Israeli and Arab forces. In war, innocents are sometimes killed. That is a sad, but unavoidable consequence of armed conflict. The trick is to attempt to minimize the casualties of innocents which Israel did by abandoing any idea of a US style air strike before sending in the ground troops.

On the bus, however, the targets were civilians, the intended victims all civilians, and no military target was even involved.

That's the difference.

In other words, if the center of Jenin had contained nothing but kindergarteners, the IDF would not have been there at all. If one of the buses in Jerusalem had contained nothing but kindergarteners, the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade or Hamas or Islamic Jihad would have bombed it all the same (and then passed out candy to the celebrating children back home). If you can't see this fundamental difference in attitude, then you haven't got much room to ask others to recalibrate their moral compasses.

The purpose of the IDF sweep of Jenin wasn't to kill civilians. The UN report on Jenin scored Israel for excessive force in residential areas, but don't forget that it also scored the Palestinian militant groups for endangering Palestinian civilians by putting obvious military targets -- ammo dumps, that sort of thing -- in densely populated areas. As has been pointed out, Israel could simply have attacked those targets from the air, saving Israeli butts at the price of Palestinian ones. Why do you think they didn't?

@%<

when you roll over houses with bulldozers, you are targeting civilians. When you destroy water manes you are targeting civilians. When you slap curfews on civilians which do not allow them to leave their house for more than 3 hrs a day you are targeting civilians. When you deport the "terror suspects" families you are targeting civilians. When you drop bombs into civlian areas you are targeting civilians. When you destroy civic buildings you are tagerting civilians.

Is that too difficult for you High?

Gehrig, you disappoint me. The spreading of the Sharon propaganda by one who claims to loath him is sad. According to you “If one of the buses in Jerusalem had contained nothing but kindergarteners, the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade or Hamas or Islamic Jihad would have bombed it all the same (and then passed out candy to the celebrating children back home). “

If you can’t see the racism in that statement, your strong, unquestioning support for Israel has made you similar to too many other jerks--only a bit smoother. And, why in hell should I see a “fundamental difference” in a situation that you picture in 100% Israeli right-wing propaganda terms, while ignoring many realities.

You ask “As has been pointed out, Israel could simply have attacked those targets from the air, saving Israeli butts at the price of Palestinian ones. Why do you think they didn't?"

That’s easy to answer. There are moral issues, international laws, world-wide public opinion, and that all comes in play to restrain the worst of warmongers in Israel, and indeed throughout the world. This restraint does not make killers any better or any worse.

Any nuclear armed country could bomb nonnuclear countries off the map every time their is a dispute or war, in order to save lives of their own military. Thankfully, that has not been done since Nagasaki. I am surprise that you would stoop to asking such an insensitive question.

I will leave you with another Einstein quote "Understanding of our fellow human beings...becomes fruitful only when it is sustained by sympathetic feelings in joy and sorrow."

Free Palestine

Ohy gohy gumflaps Ryan. looks like a blistering upper cut.

> when you roll over houses with bulldozers, you are
> targeting civilians.

Unless you believe that those houses are those of combatants, including the joyous families of suicide bombers. Then it is not civilians.

> When you destroy water manes you are targeting
> civilians.

Actually sounds like targeting water manes. I don't know why this was done. Unless there is a good explanation, and there probably is, it is something I can not support.

> When you slap curfews on civilians which do not
> allow them to leave their house for more than 3 hrs a
> day you are targeting civilians.

No you are targeting combatants who are aiming to do harm. Again, civilians are inconvenienced. You might just as well say that the Brady Bill targets innocent civilians in the USA because people with no ill intent must still wait to buy arms. Never mind that it might keep guns out of the hands of criminals, civilians are INCOVENIENCED!!

Mr. T, have you ever been through a metal detector at a government building or an airport. Did you feel "targeted." Based on your post, you must have. There are medications for that. Talk to your doctor.

> When you deport the "terror suspects" families you
> are targeting civilians.

No. That is pretty specifically targeting combatants.

> When you drop bombs into civlian areas you are
> targeting civilians.

True enough. Unless the target is a terrorist mastermid who is hiding out in civilian areas, in which case you are targeting a terrorist mastermind, and not civilians.

> When you destroy civic buildings you are tagerting
> civilians.

No. You are destroying a civic building. If the targets within them are civilians, then it is targeting civilians. If the targets are military operations, then you are not targeting civilians.

> Is that too difficult for you High?

It is quite simple for me. When you bomb a commuter bus, a disco, a pizza parlor, or a marketplace full of people where there is no military target in sight, that is targeting civilians. When you target a military installation, terrorist hideout, or evildoer, then you are not targeting civilians.

Is that too difficult for you, Mr. T?

"Unless you believe that those houses are those of combatants, including the joyous families of suicide bombers. Then it is not civilians...> When you deport the "terror suspects" families you
> are targeting civilians.

No. That is pretty specifically targeting combatants."

Belief is not enough, I'm afraid. It has to be determined as a fact. And - the families of suicide bombers are, in fact, civilians. Under any civilized system of law, whether it be due process in the United States, English common law, the Geneva Convention - whatever. That is guilt by association, a hallmark of dictatorial regimes. Simply because you are related to a combatant, does NOT make you one. If that were the case, then in World War 2 virtually all Germans would have to be judged as combatants merely because they had family in the army. Or, lets say your kid brother steals a car. Should everyone in your entire family go to jail? Or, lets say George Bush's cousin is found guilty of corporate fraud. Does that mean the entire Bush family should go to jail? According to you, it does.

too difficult to High. I find it truly amazing that you cannot understand that targeting civic buildings and destroying water manes and strict curfews are effectively targeting civilians. Have you ever heard of siege tactics? This is pretty much what is being employed and its pretty damned medieval and you're profoundly stupid if you cannot understand the concept of a siege. Starve the people out. Destroy their resources, prevent them from obtaining food and water. Hmmmm sound familiar to this situation. Curfews confine people, prevent them from working, preventing them from feeding their families, which causes malnutrition, a massive problem in occupied Palestine. Targeting a water mane is targeting the city's water supply, cutting off the water of civilians is TARGETING them genius. A civic building is part of the civilian infrastructure. To target it is to try to destroy the infrastructure of the community. Again, what was so hard to understand about that. To target a civilain area is to target a civilian area. Whether or not a terrorist is there is of no consequence you still are dropping bombs on civilians. Even Shimon Peres spoke out openly against that one.

Now targeting a relative of a terrorist, is just simply targeting a relative of a terrorist, they still remain nothing more. To kill an Israeli child on bus is killing a civilian, she remains a civilian even though she has an older brother in the army, a combatant. To kill her mother would be the same. By you twisted logic this would make the the child a non civilian. Negating terrorism completely as something that does not exist because civilians cannot exist.

one name per poster. honesty is a good vaccine against me.

"one name per poster. honesty is a good vaccine against me."

I always post under the same name. Sometimes when I am lucky other people post racist shit under my name. I am not nessie, if that is what you are implying.

three ways to stop me:

find me kill me

go away

be honest

Who said we want to stop you making a fool out of yourself?

what a man who persues jointly the ideas of the man boy love bunch thinks of anything, anything at all, is of 0 concern.

youre stubborn in your lunacy then so am i.