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Sloppy Justice in Oakland Car Seizure Programs
This essay describes the on going
crackdown on civil liberties against Black and Brown motorists in Oakland in the name of the drug war. It also invites folks to a speak-out on police repression and the drug war on
June 27th at Defremery Park in West
Oakland 7:00. Call 415-364-1870
ebuprising [at] yahoo.com
crackdown on civil liberties against Black and Brown motorists in Oakland in the name of the drug war. It also invites folks to a speak-out on police repression and the drug war on
June 27th at Defremery Park in West
Oakland 7:00. Call 415-364-1870
ebuprising [at] yahoo.com
Sloppy Justice in Oakland Car Seizure Programs
Oakland motorists have no rights that the Oakland Police Department are bound to respect. The latest outrage took place a couple of weekends ago when over 100 cars were confiscated by the OPD and other East Bay police forces. While the latest wave of municipal car jackings have taken place in response to so called side shows the practice of confiscating vehicles first and asking questions later began earlier.
In 1997 Oakland introduced Beat Feet, a drug war inspired OPD program that allows
cops to seize cars based on the suspicion that the driver is soliciting for drugs or prostitution. Of course the key word here is “suspicion.” There was a time when even
suspects were presumed innocent until they were proven guilty. But with programs like
Beat Feet the cops get to play judge and jury at the alleged scene of the crime. There’s
a term for places that allow their cops to try and punish suspects in the street- a police
state.
According to the OPD car confiscation is just another “tool” they use to keep our
communities safe but there’s no evidence that the practice has had any impact on
crime reduction or neighborhood safety. On the other hand there are hundreds of
victims who have had their most valuable asset taken from them without a trial or
even a hearing. If you get you’re car taken from you in Oakland and you don’t have
a few thousand dollars laying around to get it back within a few days of the seizure
you can kiss it goodbye regardless if you’re proven innocent in subsequent court proceedings. The kicker- under Beat Feet the OPD auctions off the cars and keeps half the money. The other half goes to the City Attorney’s Office.
The majority of the cars that get confiscated by the City belong to innocent owners, not the actual motorist. Despite what confiscation boosters insist the targets for seizure are not rich, suburban, out of towners who come to Oakland looking for kicks. According to a San Francisco Chronicle survey done in 2000 the average value of the cars seized is $1200.00. The targets are the usual ones, mainly low income, black and brown motorists who more than likely share their vehicle with other members of their family and rely on it to get to work and school. Not only do these car seizure schemes encourage racial profiling they’re yet another offensive in Jerry Brown’s class warfare against working people in Oakland.
Amore constructive response to rowdy East Bay youth who drive around at night is to give them more destinations- community centers, concerts, arcades, pool halls. Teenagers
cruise because they have nothing better to do. And as for folks who ride around Oakland looking for drugs maybe some of them need help. The 1.2 million Oakland spends annually on police overtime to seize peoples cars could be spent constructing new treatment centers and teen centers. If the last 20 years of the drug war has taught us anything its that the endless crackdown in poor neighborhoods of color don’t eliminate drug dealers or users they just shuffle them from one block to another. The passage of Prop. 36 demonstrated that most California voters get it. When will the City of Oakland?
Roger White is a Criminal Justice Researcher for the Oakland based non-profit The Data Center and is a member of East Bay Uprising, a grassroots community organization fighting against state repression and corporate domination.
Come support the campaign against Beat Feat on June 27 at Defremery Park in West Oakland. Listen to speakers and help develop strategy around police repression in Oakland. Free. For more info call 415-364-1870 or e-mail East Bay Uprising at ebuprising [at] yahoo.com
Oakland motorists have no rights that the Oakland Police Department are bound to respect. The latest outrage took place a couple of weekends ago when over 100 cars were confiscated by the OPD and other East Bay police forces. While the latest wave of municipal car jackings have taken place in response to so called side shows the practice of confiscating vehicles first and asking questions later began earlier.
In 1997 Oakland introduced Beat Feet, a drug war inspired OPD program that allows
cops to seize cars based on the suspicion that the driver is soliciting for drugs or prostitution. Of course the key word here is “suspicion.” There was a time when even
suspects were presumed innocent until they were proven guilty. But with programs like
Beat Feet the cops get to play judge and jury at the alleged scene of the crime. There’s
a term for places that allow their cops to try and punish suspects in the street- a police
state.
According to the OPD car confiscation is just another “tool” they use to keep our
communities safe but there’s no evidence that the practice has had any impact on
crime reduction or neighborhood safety. On the other hand there are hundreds of
victims who have had their most valuable asset taken from them without a trial or
even a hearing. If you get you’re car taken from you in Oakland and you don’t have
a few thousand dollars laying around to get it back within a few days of the seizure
you can kiss it goodbye regardless if you’re proven innocent in subsequent court proceedings. The kicker- under Beat Feet the OPD auctions off the cars and keeps half the money. The other half goes to the City Attorney’s Office.
The majority of the cars that get confiscated by the City belong to innocent owners, not the actual motorist. Despite what confiscation boosters insist the targets for seizure are not rich, suburban, out of towners who come to Oakland looking for kicks. According to a San Francisco Chronicle survey done in 2000 the average value of the cars seized is $1200.00. The targets are the usual ones, mainly low income, black and brown motorists who more than likely share their vehicle with other members of their family and rely on it to get to work and school. Not only do these car seizure schemes encourage racial profiling they’re yet another offensive in Jerry Brown’s class warfare against working people in Oakland.
Amore constructive response to rowdy East Bay youth who drive around at night is to give them more destinations- community centers, concerts, arcades, pool halls. Teenagers
cruise because they have nothing better to do. And as for folks who ride around Oakland looking for drugs maybe some of them need help. The 1.2 million Oakland spends annually on police overtime to seize peoples cars could be spent constructing new treatment centers and teen centers. If the last 20 years of the drug war has taught us anything its that the endless crackdown in poor neighborhoods of color don’t eliminate drug dealers or users they just shuffle them from one block to another. The passage of Prop. 36 demonstrated that most California voters get it. When will the City of Oakland?
Roger White is a Criminal Justice Researcher for the Oakland based non-profit The Data Center and is a member of East Bay Uprising, a grassroots community organization fighting against state repression and corporate domination.
Come support the campaign against Beat Feat on June 27 at Defremery Park in West Oakland. Listen to speakers and help develop strategy around police repression in Oakland. Free. For more info call 415-364-1870 or e-mail East Bay Uprising at ebuprising [at] yahoo.com
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Don't do the Crime
If you can't do the Time
If you can't do the Time
Joe F, you f****ing idjit, the point is They've done no crime !!!
I say take their cars. I'm sick of ho's, drug dealers, and the buyers in my neighborhood. Fuck'em all! The drug dealers are violent, the ho's leave used condoms in the street and the crack buyers come here from their rich neighborhoods. Let them buy crack in Walnut Creek! I've never been sweated by the OPD for smoking a little chronic, they go after the hard drugs. In the late 80s/early 90s I heard gunshots practically every day. After the crackdowns, it's much less frequent. I can't remember the last time I was awakened by gunshots. I'm glad the police are finally doing their job as opposed to harassing the residents of my neighborhood.
This has been a valuable tool in removing these scum from our streets. Don't tell me that the people who have had their cars confiscated have done nothing wrong. Bullshit. I 100% support these crackdowns on drug dealers and buyers. We can not allow them to just run amok.
Surely you jest.
I say crush them all. And let them ride bikes.
Stinking Noisy Cars. The more we get off the streets the better.
Stinking Noisy Cars. The more we get off the streets the better.
For more information:
http://www.criticalmasshub.com/
well, first of all, if you're sick of the "ho's, drug dealers, and the buyers" in "your" neighborhood, you might want to consider moving. to venus. cuz guess what? they're all over the place in this glorious country, even the so-called rich neighborhoods. more goes on behind closed doors there, of course, and the cops hardly ever come around.
secondly, what's clear is that these are people that are only *suspected* of committing some crime. if this ordinance is allowed to continue, your pot-smokin' ass could be hauled to jail based upon something a cop sees in your "look." now that wouldn't be fair, would it?
and do the police *really* deter crime *that* much? i don't think they do, unless they're right near where some shit's about to go down, a rare scenario in reality. while police are used by politicians as a method of maintaining "order" (read: control of the lower classes/ethnicities), the true causes of poverty and drug abuse and desperation that causes the great majority of women to, say, sell their bodies for sex, go un-fucking-addressed. nothing will be solved by taking cars. the so-called "war on drugs" has really done jack shit in terms of reducing crime, helping families and kids, lowering substance abuse rates, etc. these aren't really things to argue about, unless you're a public relations flak. if you'd like some sources to read i'd be happy to point you in the right direction.
and also, just saying "don't tell me this isn't a good thing to do because it is," isn't really an argument. do you really have any evidence that it works? my evidence is the entire failed "war on drugs," this same style of policing and cracking down that has been tried and tried and tried again by countless business whore politicians appealing to general fear of crime and random violence.
and i agree with scarry larry on the more bikes thing, but again, where's your argument? "uh, duhhh, just take 'em so we can have more bikes..." ummm, right. bikes are awesome, but for fuck's sake.
in the end, this is just a tired and worn out policy, one that has been tried before and will surely be tried again. at some point there will be a movement that won't allow this shit to happen. and the whole thing will come tumbling down.
secondly, what's clear is that these are people that are only *suspected* of committing some crime. if this ordinance is allowed to continue, your pot-smokin' ass could be hauled to jail based upon something a cop sees in your "look." now that wouldn't be fair, would it?
and do the police *really* deter crime *that* much? i don't think they do, unless they're right near where some shit's about to go down, a rare scenario in reality. while police are used by politicians as a method of maintaining "order" (read: control of the lower classes/ethnicities), the true causes of poverty and drug abuse and desperation that causes the great majority of women to, say, sell their bodies for sex, go un-fucking-addressed. nothing will be solved by taking cars. the so-called "war on drugs" has really done jack shit in terms of reducing crime, helping families and kids, lowering substance abuse rates, etc. these aren't really things to argue about, unless you're a public relations flak. if you'd like some sources to read i'd be happy to point you in the right direction.
and also, just saying "don't tell me this isn't a good thing to do because it is," isn't really an argument. do you really have any evidence that it works? my evidence is the entire failed "war on drugs," this same style of policing and cracking down that has been tried and tried and tried again by countless business whore politicians appealing to general fear of crime and random violence.
and i agree with scarry larry on the more bikes thing, but again, where's your argument? "uh, duhhh, just take 'em so we can have more bikes..." ummm, right. bikes are awesome, but for fuck's sake.
in the end, this is just a tired and worn out policy, one that has been tried before and will surely be tried again. at some point there will be a movement that won't allow this shit to happen. and the whole thing will come tumbling down.
Look Mr. or Ms. "personal & collective responsibility", I've lived in Oakland over half my life. I'm not some artsy white kid who moved here from SF because they couldn't afford the rents in the Lower Haight or Mission anymore. I lived through the crack wars and things are much better now.
Most of my neigbors are homeowners, we are working class black, white, Asian Indian, Latino and many ethnicities. We don't view this as a means to "control the lower classes/ethnicities." But we are just ignorant darkies to you. What do we know about what's going down in our neighborhood?
All of us are glad that the dealers are gone. At least every person I've spoken to. Not one in the neighborhood is upset about this program.
You say there is no evidence that these programs work. Well, we have plenty of evidence. The evidence is that our kids can play in front of our houses again. The evidence is that we don't have to worry about stray bullets flying into our residences. The evidence is that my wife does't feel worried coming home late at night, walking home from BART.
Yeah, that's right, we work for a living.
This first-hand evidence based in day-to-day reality is worth more to us than any book, study, or commission whether cooked up by the left or the right. What we care about are results.
You write, "secondly, what's clear is that these are people that are only *suspected* of committing some crime. if this ordinance is allowed to continue, your pot-smokin' ass could be hauled to jail based upon something a cop sees in your "look." now that wouldn't be fair, would it? "
My car would not be confiscated because I'm a resident of my neighborhood. I'm not trawling around looking for ho's and crack. The people whose cars are being taken away are people from outside the hood.
As far as your weed comment, I'm not worried. I'm not a dealer. The laws in California are very lax. A fine for anything under an ounce and a lot of small possesion cases don't even make it to court.
You say there are more drugs in rich neighborhoods? Good! Let them buy their shit in Walnut Creek or Blackhawk! We don't want them in Oakland. It's so obvious when you see Mercedes in rolling off San Pablo Avenue with "Mercedes of Walnut Creek" on their license plates where these assholes are coming from.
But feel free to make excuses for them. It shows how truely progressive and revolutionary you are. (JOKE) I can see it now, white activists whith signs reading "We have a right to buy crack and pick up whores in black working class neighborhoods!"
Most of my neigbors are homeowners, we are working class black, white, Asian Indian, Latino and many ethnicities. We don't view this as a means to "control the lower classes/ethnicities." But we are just ignorant darkies to you. What do we know about what's going down in our neighborhood?
All of us are glad that the dealers are gone. At least every person I've spoken to. Not one in the neighborhood is upset about this program.
You say there is no evidence that these programs work. Well, we have plenty of evidence. The evidence is that our kids can play in front of our houses again. The evidence is that we don't have to worry about stray bullets flying into our residences. The evidence is that my wife does't feel worried coming home late at night, walking home from BART.
Yeah, that's right, we work for a living.
This first-hand evidence based in day-to-day reality is worth more to us than any book, study, or commission whether cooked up by the left or the right. What we care about are results.
You write, "secondly, what's clear is that these are people that are only *suspected* of committing some crime. if this ordinance is allowed to continue, your pot-smokin' ass could be hauled to jail based upon something a cop sees in your "look." now that wouldn't be fair, would it? "
My car would not be confiscated because I'm a resident of my neighborhood. I'm not trawling around looking for ho's and crack. The people whose cars are being taken away are people from outside the hood.
As far as your weed comment, I'm not worried. I'm not a dealer. The laws in California are very lax. A fine for anything under an ounce and a lot of small possesion cases don't even make it to court.
You say there are more drugs in rich neighborhoods? Good! Let them buy their shit in Walnut Creek or Blackhawk! We don't want them in Oakland. It's so obvious when you see Mercedes in rolling off San Pablo Avenue with "Mercedes of Walnut Creek" on their license plates where these assholes are coming from.
But feel free to make excuses for them. It shows how truely progressive and revolutionary you are. (JOKE) I can see it now, white activists whith signs reading "We have a right to buy crack and pick up whores in black working class neighborhoods!"
I am glad your neighborhood is a better place to live. However, If cops are allowed to steal peoples property because they think a crime is about to be committed, you better watch your ass b/c smoking pot is still a illegal, regardless of how the law is enforced today.Incase you didn't realize, the cops aren't there to protect you, and gentrification is probably the reason for this whole crackdown in the first place. So i hope that you are not forced out of your neighborhood that the nice cops are cleaning up.
I'm black and i've lived in Fruitvale and west oakland and i think car seizures are fucked up. To assume that
everyone who's against this fascist bullshit is some over educated white person in exile from SF is just a
lame way of attacking the person rather than dealing w/ the points their making.
In terms of your neighborhood being a better place to live I'm glad. The drug violence that erupted in the late 80's and early 90's surrounding the crack trade has declined steadily since the mid 90's. But this has happened across the board in cities that don't have car siezure schemes. - not just Oakland. To attribute the decrease in drug violence to beat feet is stupid. Oakland drug violence is largely committed by repeat drug offenders who have been arrested before, are on probation, and who live "in the hood." The idea that white folks come in from Walnut Creek to engage in turf gun battles and conficating their cars has lead to a decrease in this type of violence is once again, stupid. Its a myth that rich white kids converge on East and West Oakland nightly looking for drugs. Rich, white users generally don't do their business in the street cause they don't have to. That is part of the reason why drug arrests are so disproportionately black and brown. We do. (The biggest cause being racially profiling.)
And just for the record, the most common underling offense connected to beat feet car siezures is attempted pot buys. I wouldn't put money
on the notion that the OPD don't sieze the cars of local
folks who get caught trying to buy drugs just because they live "in the hood." roger
everyone who's against this fascist bullshit is some over educated white person in exile from SF is just a
lame way of attacking the person rather than dealing w/ the points their making.
In terms of your neighborhood being a better place to live I'm glad. The drug violence that erupted in the late 80's and early 90's surrounding the crack trade has declined steadily since the mid 90's. But this has happened across the board in cities that don't have car siezure schemes. - not just Oakland. To attribute the decrease in drug violence to beat feet is stupid. Oakland drug violence is largely committed by repeat drug offenders who have been arrested before, are on probation, and who live "in the hood." The idea that white folks come in from Walnut Creek to engage in turf gun battles and conficating their cars has lead to a decrease in this type of violence is once again, stupid. Its a myth that rich white kids converge on East and West Oakland nightly looking for drugs. Rich, white users generally don't do their business in the street cause they don't have to. That is part of the reason why drug arrests are so disproportionately black and brown. We do. (The biggest cause being racially profiling.)
And just for the record, the most common underling offense connected to beat feet car siezures is attempted pot buys. I wouldn't put money
on the notion that the OPD don't sieze the cars of local
folks who get caught trying to buy drugs just because they live "in the hood." roger
"Fascist Bullshit" huh? Tell that to the people who have benefited from having the po-pos actually protect their neighborhood as opposed to prey upon it.
But to the point of your comments, I never said that people from Walnut Creek were engaging in "turf battles." That's ridiculous. But they are coming into Oakland to buy crack and pick up hookers. I don't deny that the people selling come from the neighborhood. I never said they didn't. I said the people coming to score do. That's what I have observed first-hand. You can deny it all you want but it does not change the facts. Me and my neighbors will continue to support this policy and ones like it.
I would be interested in the evidence that most of the people who have their cars jacked are due to weed. I really don't believe it for a minute. The policy was introduced to get "Johns" from coming into Oakland.
Please Roger, you can delude people from outside the O but if you think I'm going to stand against a policy that is benefiting myself, my family, and my neighbors, you must be kidding.
But to the point of your comments, I never said that people from Walnut Creek were engaging in "turf battles." That's ridiculous. But they are coming into Oakland to buy crack and pick up hookers. I don't deny that the people selling come from the neighborhood. I never said they didn't. I said the people coming to score do. That's what I have observed first-hand. You can deny it all you want but it does not change the facts. Me and my neighbors will continue to support this policy and ones like it.
I would be interested in the evidence that most of the people who have their cars jacked are due to weed. I really don't believe it for a minute. The policy was introduced to get "Johns" from coming into Oakland.
Please Roger, you can delude people from outside the O but if you think I'm going to stand against a policy that is benefiting myself, my family, and my neighbors, you must be kidding.
No one is going to "run me out" of my home due to getrification. As I said in the second paragraph of my second reply, "most of my neighbors are homeowners." That includes me. I'm not going anywhere.
So you're all for cops permanently seizing the cars of people who have been convicted of no crime? How do you know they won't take your car one day? Can't wait for that to happen.
And the cops and government get to keep the money? What a conflict of interest.
And the cops and government get to keep the money? What a conflict of interest.
I'm not worried about that either. My car is registered and I don't have any tickets on it. These people who are having to pay "thousands" of dollars to get their cars out must have violations on them, lack of registration, etc. I know because I had my car impounded in the past when I was a reckless youth. I paid the fees and got it out. No big deal.
I honestly think a lot of you are misinformed. You read some rhetoric that you agree with and buy it hook line and sinker. You need to get out in the world, get a job, and raise a family. Then you'll realize how many of us agree with these policies if they keep our neighborhoods safe.
As long as you hang in your activist cliques you'll never understand that the majority of us want to be able to raise our kids in a safe environment and we can't do that with dealers and hookers, the used needles and crack vials and all that other assorted nonsense. If the cops keep these elements out of the hood that's cool with me.
A final comment, it's really quite a shock how far "activists" have moved from their goals in the 60s and 70s. When the Panthers were around they were trying to keep drugs OUT of the hood. They put pressure on the dealers when the police didn't care. You folks seem like you are defending the dealers. Did you ever pause to think about that?
I honestly think a lot of you are misinformed. You read some rhetoric that you agree with and buy it hook line and sinker. You need to get out in the world, get a job, and raise a family. Then you'll realize how many of us agree with these policies if they keep our neighborhoods safe.
As long as you hang in your activist cliques you'll never understand that the majority of us want to be able to raise our kids in a safe environment and we can't do that with dealers and hookers, the used needles and crack vials and all that other assorted nonsense. If the cops keep these elements out of the hood that's cool with me.
A final comment, it's really quite a shock how far "activists" have moved from their goals in the 60s and 70s. When the Panthers were around they were trying to keep drugs OUT of the hood. They put pressure on the dealers when the police didn't care. You folks seem like you are defending the dealers. Did you ever pause to think about that?
They are defending property rights. What, are you against property rights? Do you want the government to be able confiscate property at will, without the due process guaranteed by our Constitution? Then you’re living in the wrong city. Get out of Oakland. Move to P'yongyang.
Move to Pyongyang, how original. Actually, I don't think these activists believe in property rights at all. They're just linking on to what they feel is a noble cause (protecting the underclass). But they've been hoodwinked. They're actually helping people who prey on our neighborhoods. And as I wrote above, a lot of these assholes are coming from outside of Oakland. I say gank that Walnut Creek BMW SUV!
If they really cared about property rights they would've been helping property owners all these years we've been trying to run the drugs out of our neighborhoods. Where were ya'all then?
And besides, if you took the time to notice, most of the people posting on this site are anarchists, communists, and socialists. Since when did they start caring about property rights? I thought property rights were supported by the "evil" conservatives and "sell-out" liberals? Have ya'all changed your tune?
Look man, you can fool the young bucks who don't know any better but you can't fool me Mr. or Ms. Real American.
If they really cared about property rights they would've been helping property owners all these years we've been trying to run the drugs out of our neighborhoods. Where were ya'all then?
And besides, if you took the time to notice, most of the people posting on this site are anarchists, communists, and socialists. Since when did they start caring about property rights? I thought property rights were supported by the "evil" conservatives and "sell-out" liberals? Have ya'all changed your tune?
Look man, you can fool the young bucks who don't know any better but you can't fool me Mr. or Ms. Real American.
That's not a rebuttal.
Instead, try demonstrating, if you can, how the seizure of personal property from people who have not been convicted of a crime is not a violation of the Constitution.
Instead, try demonstrating, if you can, how the seizure of personal property from people who have not been convicted of a crime is not a violation of the Constitution.
I think that JoJo, Smashy, briggs, works, and the rest of their gang disprove that conclusively.
This place is the home of the broadest possible spectrum of political opinion imaginable, and then some.
This place is the home of the broadest possible spectrum of political opinion imaginable, and then some.
>I'm not worried about that either.
Yeah, we'll see how you feel when your car is seized. The Oakland ordinance has no innocent owner defense so if you loan your car to someone or if someone steals your car and then a cop thinks that person is using it to try to buy drugs you'll lose YOUR car.
The cops and politicians should be able to clean up the city without breaking the Constitution. Why do you think they have such hard ons to seize and auction off cars before a person is even convicted of any crime? It's not because they give a rat's ass about you or your neighborhood. Wake up!
TJ
Yeah, we'll see how you feel when your car is seized. The Oakland ordinance has no innocent owner defense so if you loan your car to someone or if someone steals your car and then a cop thinks that person is using it to try to buy drugs you'll lose YOUR car.
The cops and politicians should be able to clean up the city without breaking the Constitution. Why do you think they have such hard ons to seize and auction off cars before a person is even convicted of any crime? It's not because they give a rat's ass about you or your neighborhood. Wake up!
TJ
>But they've been hoodwinked
No the only person who's been hoodwinked is you. You've bought into the idea put forth by politicians, bureaucrats and cops that the only way they can protect you is to permanently seize the property of people who have not been convicted of a crime. You'd be right at home in Nazi Germany because that's what they believed too.
No the only person who's been hoodwinked is you. You've bought into the idea put forth by politicians, bureaucrats and cops that the only way they can protect you is to permanently seize the property of people who have not been convicted of a crime. You'd be right at home in Nazi Germany because that's what they believed too.
Is that the best you could come up with, biting what I said about ya'all? C'mon you could at least be a bit original. If I'm hoodwinked so is every other neighborhood resident that I've talked to. Why is it so hard for you people to believe that we want a safe and drug free neighborhood?
TJ, don't you get it? My car is not going to get seized. I'm not worried about it, not in the slightest. And I really doubt if someone steals my car and picks up drugs it will be confiscated. That seems like a weak argument and a scare tactic to me. I've certainly never seen that implemented. It's never been brought up in any of our neighborhood meetings but I'll ask the police myself. Hey, that's something you geniuses never thought of is it?!
From my posts I'm sure you realize I don't buy into your worldview that all "cops, politicians and bureaucrats" (love that leftie rhetoric BTW) are the enemy. I've known a few to know you are incorrect. It also seems like a sad and paranoid way to go through life.
And debate coach, I don't care about some debate rules. That's irrelevant to me. What matters is r-e-a-l-i-t-y something you folks are obviously remote from. It really tells a lot when I bring things up that people have to deal with in the hood and you bring up debate rules. Reveals a little of your "class background" don't you think?
As far as the Nazi Germany comment, I should not even dignify that with a response but I expect that from knee-jerk lefties. You're no better than the rightwing nuts who complain that every social program is communist. Wake up and grow up!
TJ, don't you get it? My car is not going to get seized. I'm not worried about it, not in the slightest. And I really doubt if someone steals my car and picks up drugs it will be confiscated. That seems like a weak argument and a scare tactic to me. I've certainly never seen that implemented. It's never been brought up in any of our neighborhood meetings but I'll ask the police myself. Hey, that's something you geniuses never thought of is it?!
From my posts I'm sure you realize I don't buy into your worldview that all "cops, politicians and bureaucrats" (love that leftie rhetoric BTW) are the enemy. I've known a few to know you are incorrect. It also seems like a sad and paranoid way to go through life.
And debate coach, I don't care about some debate rules. That's irrelevant to me. What matters is r-e-a-l-i-t-y something you folks are obviously remote from. It really tells a lot when I bring things up that people have to deal with in the hood and you bring up debate rules. Reveals a little of your "class background" don't you think?
As far as the Nazi Germany comment, I should not even dignify that with a response but I expect that from knee-jerk lefties. You're no better than the rightwing nuts who complain that every social program is communist. Wake up and grow up!
The original post claims:
"The majority of the cars that get confiscated by the City belong to innocent owners, not the actual motorist."
Where is the data on which this statement is based?
Also, it appears that there is the typical schism here: purity of ideology vs actual on-the-ground results. I think it is fair to reprimand the many radical posters on this site (of which I would like to consider myself) for their defense of property rights when it suits their argument. For every example of poor folks who get their property jacked from them by authorities there's another one of some Oppressor who gets carte blanche in life because of what they own.
I think it's perhaps a waste of time to worry about the relatively small number of innocent young people who get the cars they chose to fuck around in dealt with. I think energy should be focussed on improving the lives of the actual residents of communities of color, the overwhelming majority of whom are normal ass people going to work, coming home, hanging out with their friends and frequently being annoyed and intimidated by the small number of other residents who choose to drive recklessly, sell drugs, bump at all hours, shout down the block at their dawgs and all that other crap. It really doesn't take more than two or three people to really fuck up a neighborhood.
I think if you want to improve the actual everyday lives of the greatest number of poor people of color, it is essential to put a serious emphasis on crime control. Most people in poor communities understand that people are and should be responsible for their actions,and wish, like the poster above, that they could have their kids play in their front yard, have a restful night of sleep, go down to the store without getting holla'd at by some neandrathal or any of the other normal things that normal people like to do.
Not everyone who is fucked with and left back in life by The System becomes a criminal or menace. The number is actually quite small, and getting them off the corners will do a disproportionate amount of good. Community groups throught Oakland believe this: there is not one community organization that wants to dismantle the police department.
"The majority of the cars that get confiscated by the City belong to innocent owners, not the actual motorist."
Where is the data on which this statement is based?
Also, it appears that there is the typical schism here: purity of ideology vs actual on-the-ground results. I think it is fair to reprimand the many radical posters on this site (of which I would like to consider myself) for their defense of property rights when it suits their argument. For every example of poor folks who get their property jacked from them by authorities there's another one of some Oppressor who gets carte blanche in life because of what they own.
I think it's perhaps a waste of time to worry about the relatively small number of innocent young people who get the cars they chose to fuck around in dealt with. I think energy should be focussed on improving the lives of the actual residents of communities of color, the overwhelming majority of whom are normal ass people going to work, coming home, hanging out with their friends and frequently being annoyed and intimidated by the small number of other residents who choose to drive recklessly, sell drugs, bump at all hours, shout down the block at their dawgs and all that other crap. It really doesn't take more than two or three people to really fuck up a neighborhood.
I think if you want to improve the actual everyday lives of the greatest number of poor people of color, it is essential to put a serious emphasis on crime control. Most people in poor communities understand that people are and should be responsible for their actions,and wish, like the poster above, that they could have their kids play in their front yard, have a restful night of sleep, go down to the store without getting holla'd at by some neandrathal or any of the other normal things that normal people like to do.
Not everyone who is fucked with and left back in life by The System becomes a criminal or menace. The number is actually quite small, and getting them off the corners will do a disproportionate amount of good. Community groups throught Oakland believe this: there is not one community organization that wants to dismantle the police department.
I don't support harsher penalties for drugs. I think they are plenty harsh the way they are. In some cases, they are too harsh. I actually support drug treatment programs as opposed to jail--in most cases--and am a pretty liberal guy.
(I know Nessie, to nuts like you liberal=conservative=fascist so don't even bother...)
But I agree with the overall sentiment of "if you support these jerks, let them slang in your neighborhood" (to paraphrase Dave).
I elect Nessies Berkeley neighborhood. No, his neighbors don't deserve that. Let them post up in front of his house and in front of the houses of all the rest of you (outside the) community activists.
(I know Nessie, to nuts like you liberal=conservative=fascist so don't even bother...)
But I agree with the overall sentiment of "if you support these jerks, let them slang in your neighborhood" (to paraphrase Dave).
I elect Nessies Berkeley neighborhood. No, his neighbors don't deserve that. Let them post up in front of his house and in front of the houses of all the rest of you (outside the) community activists.
The Oakland City Attorney's Office gave East Bay Uprising a report on Beat Feet that included the
registered owner of the seized vehicle and the driver
at the time of the siezure. It shows that 53% of the
seizures involved a motorist who wasn't the actual
owner of the car. You could call this drug war collateral damage. At least you could make an arguement in favor of this crap if the city was punishing the actual
alleged wrong doers. In this case a majority of the victims aren't even driving! But I guess that doesn't
mean much to folks who think that taking innocent peoples cars reduces drug violence. No one has ever shown that it does and in fact the two things maybe wholly unrelated.
registered owner of the seized vehicle and the driver
at the time of the siezure. It shows that 53% of the
seizures involved a motorist who wasn't the actual
owner of the car. You could call this drug war collateral damage. At least you could make an arguement in favor of this crap if the city was punishing the actual
alleged wrong doers. In this case a majority of the victims aren't even driving! But I guess that doesn't
mean much to folks who think that taking innocent peoples cars reduces drug violence. No one has ever shown that it does and in fact the two things maybe wholly unrelated.
Thank you, Roger, for the information. Indeed, it does seem unfair to punish car owners for what others do with their cars. However, I have never loaned my car to anybody, and my friends seem to understand that it's a pretty big ticket item to just let anybody use. Perhaps a "don't loan anyone your extremely expensive internal combustion liability creating machine to go buy drugs" campaign in Oakland would insinuate some sense into the issue.
I think it's important at least for me to clarify that I am not against drugs and recreational drug use, per se, but rather am against the impacts of open air drug dealing in poor neighborhoods. For all I know, every house on my block has a weed dealer in it, but I just don't see them or feel the hassles created by their trade. Unfortunately, a lot of folks can only get their drugs by driving to where they sell them, and, since drugs are illegal and its risky to sell them, only the adventurous, short sighted and self-centered bother to apply. Then they decide to expand their market, or someone expands on them and then POW.
Drug dealers should definitely get the fuck up off the block and find some decent way to make money. There are extremely poor people by the hundreds of millions in this world who nevertheless have decided to make their way in life at nobody else's expense. I expect the same from my neighbors.
I think it's important at least for me to clarify that I am not against drugs and recreational drug use, per se, but rather am against the impacts of open air drug dealing in poor neighborhoods. For all I know, every house on my block has a weed dealer in it, but I just don't see them or feel the hassles created by their trade. Unfortunately, a lot of folks can only get their drugs by driving to where they sell them, and, since drugs are illegal and its risky to sell them, only the adventurous, short sighted and self-centered bother to apply. Then they decide to expand their market, or someone expands on them and then POW.
Drug dealers should definitely get the fuck up off the block and find some decent way to make money. There are extremely poor people by the hundreds of millions in this world who nevertheless have decided to make their way in life at nobody else's expense. I expect the same from my neighbors.
>poor addicted individuals
> sub-human waste
cognitive dissonance
> sub-human waste
cognitive dissonance
You wouldn't think this issue would generate so much debate...
It's interesting to see the activists arguing with people who live in the neighborhoods where these operations are occurring. If you are trying to convince people of the superior moral stance of your argument it doesn't seem to be working. In fact, I bet they think their stance is more moral than your own. After all, they are the ones standing up to the drug dealers not only for their own benefit but that of their neighbors.
Reading your comments makes it seem like you know what's good for people more than the people themselves and that makes you seem elitist. I know you don't want to be perceived that way but reading your comments it's pretty obvious.
Nessie takes the cake with his comment to "Oakland Resident"
"Do the world a favor. Die off. Quit wasting air"
But there is a tint of elitism in most of the activist replies.
If I were to grade you on your skills of persuasion, debating, etc. I'd give you all an F because you didn't convice "Oakland Resident," "Dave" or "Charles Nelson." They are probably more convinced that they are right after an exchange like this as opposed to coming over to your side.
It's interesting to see the activists arguing with people who live in the neighborhoods where these operations are occurring. If you are trying to convince people of the superior moral stance of your argument it doesn't seem to be working. In fact, I bet they think their stance is more moral than your own. After all, they are the ones standing up to the drug dealers not only for their own benefit but that of their neighbors.
Reading your comments makes it seem like you know what's good for people more than the people themselves and that makes you seem elitist. I know you don't want to be perceived that way but reading your comments it's pretty obvious.
Nessie takes the cake with his comment to "Oakland Resident"
"Do the world a favor. Die off. Quit wasting air"
But there is a tint of elitism in most of the activist replies.
If I were to grade you on your skills of persuasion, debating, etc. I'd give you all an F because you didn't convice "Oakland Resident," "Dave" or "Charles Nelson." They are probably more convinced that they are right after an exchange like this as opposed to coming over to your side.
The no car lend policy you have makes sense, Charles. Unfortunately not every family can
afford to buy seperate cars for each member. The records indicate that many of owner-driver relationships were familial. This reveals the class
aspect of this policy. You can fuck a poor or working class families' livelyhood up pretty bad by taking their
car away. Low income families have to share their car.
And as for open air drug markets- as long as there are
billions of dollars to be made by the manufacture, distribution, and sell of anything there will always be
folks willing to swallow the risk of getting caught and scorn of their neighbors in order to make the money.
Are these people evil? Maybe, Maybe not. But they're
not going anywhere (unless we decriminalize drugs).
The best thing we can do is to find ways to minimize the negative impact they have on poor communities of
color and the rest of society. They call it harm reduction and it makes a lot more sense than making
places like Oakland into more of a police state than it
already is.
afford to buy seperate cars for each member. The records indicate that many of owner-driver relationships were familial. This reveals the class
aspect of this policy. You can fuck a poor or working class families' livelyhood up pretty bad by taking their
car away. Low income families have to share their car.
And as for open air drug markets- as long as there are
billions of dollars to be made by the manufacture, distribution, and sell of anything there will always be
folks willing to swallow the risk of getting caught and scorn of their neighbors in order to make the money.
Are these people evil? Maybe, Maybe not. But they're
not going anywhere (unless we decriminalize drugs).
The best thing we can do is to find ways to minimize the negative impact they have on poor communities of
color and the rest of society. They call it harm reduction and it makes a lot more sense than making
places like Oakland into more of a police state than it
already is.
and I can count the number of times I've posted something on one hand.
And if you're trying to convince the audience, rants like:
"Considering the history of COINTELPRO, and the OPD’s proven record of lying through their teeth, there’s another possibility we should consider. It is also possible that "Oakland Resident," "Dave" and "Charles Nelson" are all the literary creation of one guy, that that guy is a cop, and that he’s promoting vehicle forfeiture...."
Are not very convincing. If you disagree with someone that is fine. But to suggest everyone who does so is a cop makes you seem like a nut.
And if you're trying to convince the audience, rants like:
"Considering the history of COINTELPRO, and the OPD’s proven record of lying through their teeth, there’s another possibility we should consider. It is also possible that "Oakland Resident," "Dave" and "Charles Nelson" are all the literary creation of one guy, that that guy is a cop, and that he’s promoting vehicle forfeiture...."
Are not very convincing. If you disagree with someone that is fine. But to suggest everyone who does so is a cop makes you seem like a nut.
I don't get it, huh? Answer this question with a yes or no: Should people who have not been convicted of a crime have their property permanently seized and auctioned off by the government? If you agree with Beat Feet program than your answer is yes and you also agree with the law in such freedom loving countries as North Korea and Iraq. I'd be happy to pitch in for a one way plane ticket to send you to either on of those countries.
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