Refusenik Watch add it to your site

For the over 5000 Israeli soldiers who have volunteered to take their places? The refusenik banner should probably be updated to show not just people who have refused to serve, but people who have refused and then changed their minds. The actual number of current refuseniks is lower than the number shown. Great propaganda, though.

since you have presented no evidence whatsoever, why should we believe your version of the numbers?

among other news coverage you obviously missed.

That, or they just made it up, as is all news that folks at Indymedia don't like. Maybe they talked to some of the several thousand volunteers, as did 60 Minutes, The New York Times, and Ha'aretz.

That's an interesting tactic. When you don't like information, ask where the news source got it from, as if they didn't talk to the people in question That way, maybe the news will go away, and people won't have to think about the overall situation.

-We, reserve combat officers and soldiers of the Israel Defense Forces, who were raised upon the principles of Zionism, sacrifice and giving to the people of Israel and to the State of Israel, who have always served in the front lines, and who were the first to carry out any mission, light or heavy, in order to protect the State of Israel and strengthen it.

-We, combat officers and soldiers who have served the State of Israel for long weeks every year, in spite of the dear cost to our personal lives, have been on reserve duty all over the Occupied Territories, and were issued commands and directives that had nothing to do with the security of our country, and that had the sole purpose of perpetuating our control over the Palestinian people. We, whose eyes have seen the bloody toll this Occupation exacts from both sides.

-We, who sensed how the commands issued to us in the Territories, destroy all the values we had absorbed while growing up in this country.

-We, who understand now that the price of Occupation is the loss of IDF’s human character and the corruption of the entire Israeli society.

-We, who know that the Territories are not Israel, and that all settlements are bound to be evacuated in the end.

-We hereby declare that we shall not continue to fight this War of the Settlements.

-We shall not continue to fight beyond the 1967 borders in order to dominate, expel, starve and humiliate an entire people.

-We hereby declare that we shall continue serving in the Israel Defense Forces in any mission that serves Israel’s defense.

-The missions of occupation and oppression do not serve this purpose – and we shall take no part in them.

The (constantly growing) number for this banner is taken from the "Courage To Refuse" petition. The complete list of the signers is posted on http://www.seruv.org

There are, actually, additional refusenik petitions, such as the Youths Letter signed by 124 eigtth grade pupils and available from http://oznik.com/petitions/010822.html but this banner is based on one source only, to help calm the skeptics.

You would have to contact the reporters in question. Since none of these media sources have issued a correction regarding the 5000 figure, and none of the refuseniks (or anyone else) has challenged the figure, much shown it to be inaccurate, it seems to be perfectly valid. If you can find some information to invalidate the 5000 figure, please share.

That's an interesting rhetorical ploy. I mean, when someone mentions all the settlers in the West Bank, you don't say, "but, but, where are we getting these figures...?" Very clever, sweetheart.

...please check out this link. It includes a talk by 18-year-old refusenik Haggai Matar, in both audio and video.

http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/05/127735.php

As I said, that's a very clever ploy. In fact, we shouldn't believe The New York Times, Nightline, Haaretz, Newsweek, and all the other sources who have reported this story. It's obviously a ploy to discredit the refuseniks. I'm sure if you emailed the The New York Times, Nightline, Haaretz, Newsweek, and all the other sources who have reported the 5000 figure, they might speficy, just for you, exactly WHO, WHAT, WHERE the figure is coming from. I mean, when the papers reports that it's raining in Tel Aviv, you don't say, "but, but, but, but who is saying such a thing....?"

As I said, that's a very clever ploy. In fact, we shouldn't believe The New York Times, Nightline, Haaretz, Newsweek, and all the other sources who have reported this story. It's obviously a ploy to discredit the refuseniks. I'm sure if you emailed the The New York Times, Nightline, Haaretz, Newsweek, and all the other sources who have reported the 5000 figure, they might speficy, just for you, exactly WHO, WHAT, WHERE that figure is coming from. I mean, when the papers report that it's raining in Tel Aviv, you don't say, "but, but, but, but who is saying such a thing....?" just because you don't like the fact that it's raining. It's a very clever tactic, very common among the more conservative elements of the rightwing, as a way of trying to discredit info they don't like; apparently you've picked up on it.

So do you insist that The New York TImes, Haaretz, Nightline, Newsweek, and all the other sources that have noted this story also verify the exact source of all their reporting about unnamed settlers in the West Bank. After all, they've lied to you before. Or do you just employ this sneaky little rhetorical non-tool to question statistics you don't like?

Gosh, the fact that nobody has called out any of these sources for reporting this fact would seem to indicate that there's no reason to disbelieve it. Of course, since you don't like it, it must be wrong, or at least questionable. What more evidence do we need than your opinion? Surely the refuseniks, among other people, would be clammering about this supposed unreliable or false reporting, which does quite a bit to undermine their number, if they had some reason to do so. Gosh, how come nobody has written an article about this? Could it be because it's accurate, and therefore there's no reason to try to rebut it, unless you're another hack at Indymedia? Nah, better to assume it's that old Israeli biased media, once again disseminating false information....Remember: just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it isn't true.