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Indybay Feature
Innocent Mother Shot by SFPD
Information about a woman who held a press conference demanding that SFPD change their violent policies.
(SAN FRANCISCO; APRIL 25th 2002) Vilda Curry left Kaiser Permanente Hospital yesterday afternoon after being treated for almost six weeks for a gunshot wound she received from San Francisco police officers. Police accidentally shot Curry, 39, when they opened fire on a suspect in an open bus shelter.
Curry is demanding that the San Francisco Police Department change what she calls a "shoot first" policy. At 1 p.m. on Thursday, she will hold a press conference with local watchdog group Bay Area PoliceWatch to discuss this demand and her overall situation.
"San Francisco police officers shoot first and ask questions later and sometimes never," said Curry. "The police are sworn to protect us, but too often they just escalate the danger and violence."
On the evening of Friday, March 15, police received a report of a knife attack near Geneva Avenue and Mission Street. When they arrived, a bleeding teenage boy pointed officers to his alleged attacker.
Family members say that the man, Richard Tims, was defending himself from a criminal attack. Tims was a small, 100-pound, mentally disabled African-American man.
Police say that Tims did not obey officers' orders to drop his knife. Tims, 35, then allegedly "lunged" at the officers. Five officers then pepper-sprayed and then opened fire on Tims. He died less than an hour later.
Curry said she blames the police, not Tims, for her injuries.
"Richard Tims did not shoot me. The police shot me," said Curry. "If the police really wanted to protect our safety, they would have found a way to deal with this situation without shooting me and killing Mr. Tims."
Bay Area PoliceWatch is concerned that the police often use more force than is necessary. The watchdog group cites the recent spate of police violence against African-Americans in San Francisco, including another fatal shooting in February and a January assault against several young children in Bayview-Hunters Point.
"When you have five trained officers with guns and one man with a knife and no bystanders in danger, the officers should be able to resolve the situation without killing anyone," said Samantha Liapes, Director of Bay Area PoliceWatch. "Bullets cannot be police officers' only tools for dealing with a crisis situation."
Police spokesman Jim Deignan has said that the officers had the right to shoot Tims. Curry and Bay Area PoliceWatch say that if that is the rule, then it needs to be changed.
"The Police Department cannot have a 'shoot-first' policy," said Liapes. "SFPD needs to train and encourage officers to resolve crises without using deadly force whenever possible. The Police Department needs to spend more time on preventing police homicides instead of defending them."
Curry is demanding that the San Francisco Police Department change what she calls a "shoot first" policy. At 1 p.m. on Thursday, she will hold a press conference with local watchdog group Bay Area PoliceWatch to discuss this demand and her overall situation.
"San Francisco police officers shoot first and ask questions later and sometimes never," said Curry. "The police are sworn to protect us, but too often they just escalate the danger and violence."
On the evening of Friday, March 15, police received a report of a knife attack near Geneva Avenue and Mission Street. When they arrived, a bleeding teenage boy pointed officers to his alleged attacker.
Family members say that the man, Richard Tims, was defending himself from a criminal attack. Tims was a small, 100-pound, mentally disabled African-American man.
Police say that Tims did not obey officers' orders to drop his knife. Tims, 35, then allegedly "lunged" at the officers. Five officers then pepper-sprayed and then opened fire on Tims. He died less than an hour later.
Curry said she blames the police, not Tims, for her injuries.
"Richard Tims did not shoot me. The police shot me," said Curry. "If the police really wanted to protect our safety, they would have found a way to deal with this situation without shooting me and killing Mr. Tims."
Bay Area PoliceWatch is concerned that the police often use more force than is necessary. The watchdog group cites the recent spate of police violence against African-Americans in San Francisco, including another fatal shooting in February and a January assault against several young children in Bayview-Hunters Point.
"When you have five trained officers with guns and one man with a knife and no bystanders in danger, the officers should be able to resolve the situation without killing anyone," said Samantha Liapes, Director of Bay Area PoliceWatch. "Bullets cannot be police officers' only tools for dealing with a crisis situation."
Police spokesman Jim Deignan has said that the officers had the right to shoot Tims. Curry and Bay Area PoliceWatch say that if that is the rule, then it needs to be changed.
"The Police Department cannot have a 'shoot-first' policy," said Liapes. "SFPD needs to train and encourage officers to resolve crises without using deadly force whenever possible. The Police Department needs to spend more time on preventing police homicides instead of defending them."
For more information:
http://www.ellabakercenter.org/
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It was a mistake, OK? Stop your fucking whining, won't you?
Hey IBN,
If it was a mistake, then why don't you start the
REPARATIONS for the "mistake".
I don't believe for a second that five police officers made
a "mistake" when they shot not only this poor retarded
kid but a woman bystander.
Your comment is really hurtful and violent in nature,
and I think you meant it that way.
Cops want to pay and the power to stand on everyone
else, then whine when people point it out in a civil
and intelligent manner.
Please don't post like that again.
If it was a mistake, then why don't you start the
REPARATIONS for the "mistake".
I don't believe for a second that five police officers made
a "mistake" when they shot not only this poor retarded
kid but a woman bystander.
Your comment is really hurtful and violent in nature,
and I think you meant it that way.
Cops want to pay and the power to stand on everyone
else, then whine when people point it out in a civil
and intelligent manner.
Please don't post like that again.
>Family members say that the man, Richard Tims, was defending himself from a criminal attack. Tims was a small, 100-pound, mentally disabled African-American man. Police say that Tims did not obey officers' orders to drop his knife. Tims, 35, then allegedly "lunged" at the officers. Five officers then pepper-sprayed and then opened fire on Tims. He died less than an hour later.
>I don't believe for a second that five police officers made a "mistake" when they shot not only this poor retarded kid ...
Hey justice first, I hate to break the news to you, but if a guy with a knife "lunges" at me, and I have a gun, I'm NOT going to take time to debate whether or not he's retarded.
Here's a nut that could have stabbed and killed this woman, the police deal with the situation, she regretibly is injured (justice first, you don't think they made a 'mistake', huh? guess they shot her intentionally then. you have the mind of a child), and yet she's bitching she got shot. Typical ingrate.
BTW shithead, don't tell anybody how to post.
>I don't believe for a second that five police officers made a "mistake" when they shot not only this poor retarded kid ...
Hey justice first, I hate to break the news to you, but if a guy with a knife "lunges" at me, and I have a gun, I'm NOT going to take time to debate whether or not he's retarded.
Here's a nut that could have stabbed and killed this woman, the police deal with the situation, she regretibly is injured (justice first, you don't think they made a 'mistake', huh? guess they shot her intentionally then. you have the mind of a child), and yet she's bitching she got shot. Typical ingrate.
BTW shithead, don't tell anybody how to post.
Justice First's Version of the shooting
(Tim is standing around waving a night and clearly deranged)
(Enter a group of cops in response to a call. Tim lunges at them with is knife)
Cop 1 " Halt!"
(TIm continues to move towards them)
Cop 2 (thinking that Tim had already attacked someone with the knife and was not stopping, shoots.)
Cop 1: "Nice shot Cop 2"
Cop 2: "Thanks, hey, since I have the gun out and have to clean it anyway, let's shoot someone else."
Cop 1: "Well, its a lot more paperwork, but lets do it. Who should we shoot?"
Cop 3: "How about that lady who is standing there watching us with our guns out and shooting. For some strange reason she's not ducking. Let's plug her."
Cop 2: "Gee, I don't know."
Cop 1: "Gotta make our mind up, her bus comes soon."
Cop 2: "Well, OK" BAM, BAM.
Cop 1: "OK, hey, you got bowling tonight don't you?"
(Tim is standing around waving a night and clearly deranged)
(Enter a group of cops in response to a call. Tim lunges at them with is knife)
Cop 1 " Halt!"
(TIm continues to move towards them)
Cop 2 (thinking that Tim had already attacked someone with the knife and was not stopping, shoots.)
Cop 1: "Nice shot Cop 2"
Cop 2: "Thanks, hey, since I have the gun out and have to clean it anyway, let's shoot someone else."
Cop 1: "Well, its a lot more paperwork, but lets do it. Who should we shoot?"
Cop 3: "How about that lady who is standing there watching us with our guns out and shooting. For some strange reason she's not ducking. Let's plug her."
Cop 2: "Gee, I don't know."
Cop 1: "Gotta make our mind up, her bus comes soon."
Cop 2: "Well, OK" BAM, BAM.
Cop 1: "OK, hey, you got bowling tonight don't you?"
I AM SO SICK AND FUCKING TIRED OF ASSHOLES DEFENDING POLICE BRUTALITY, AND CALLING VICTIMS AND THIER SUPPORTERS WHINNERS!!!!
GET A FUCKING CLUE ASSHOLE!!!!
IF YOU WANT TO LIVE IN A POLICE STATE SO MUCH, THEN GET THE FUCK OUT OF AMERICA, AND MOVE TO CHILE, PERU OR IRAQ!!!!
I BET IF YOU MADE MISTAKES, YOU GET HELD ACCOUNTABLE, SO WHY SHOULD THOSE GODDAMNED PORKERS, WHO SHOULD HAVE DIED AT THE WTC BE ANY DIFFERENT???
GET A FUCKING CLUE ASSHOLE!!!!
IF YOU WANT TO LIVE IN A POLICE STATE SO MUCH, THEN GET THE FUCK OUT OF AMERICA, AND MOVE TO CHILE, PERU OR IRAQ!!!!
I BET IF YOU MADE MISTAKES, YOU GET HELD ACCOUNTABLE, SO WHY SHOULD THOSE GODDAMNED PORKERS, WHO SHOULD HAVE DIED AT THE WTC BE ANY DIFFERENT???
"then allegedly 'lunged' at the officers. " Keyword: allegedly
Changing the Subject
This article is about Ms. Vilda Curry being accidently shot by the police and her anger over what she preceives as a "shoot first" policy, not about Mr. Tims
To learn more about logic, click here:
http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/toc.htm
.
Changing the Subject
This article is about Ms. Vilda Curry being accidently shot by the police and her anger over what she preceives as a "shoot first" policy, not about Mr. Tims
To learn more about logic, click here:
http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/toc.htm
.
(1.) I didn't write that last post. This is not the first time my name has been used under false pretences. I am far from the first person here to have their name used by somebody else in an attempt to discredit them. The tactic is all to common, and becoming moreso. Of what this is indicitave is worthy of discussion, but not in this thread.
(2.) The article is about the incident. Ms. Vilda Curry being accidently shot by the police is one part of it. So are the questionable claims of the police. If you have any doubts, scroll back up the page and see for yourself.
(2.) The article is about the incident. Ms. Vilda Curry being accidently shot by the police is one part of it. So are the questionable claims of the police. If you have any doubts, scroll back up the page and see for yourself.
The question then becomes, "Are you being even handed in your analysis, OR are you choosing to critique a certain post based upon your disagreement with the position that particular poster has taken, and thus, wish to discredit his/her post?
I'll give you some time to think it over.
I'll give you some time to think it over.
A few missing facts to the story.
1. Tims was not defending himself, he went on a crazed rampage on a public bus and stabbed a juvenile
2. Officers tried less lethal options including Pepper spray.
3. Curry was inside of a fast food restaurant and went outside to "see what was going on" (her words)l
4. Employees and patrons of restaurant urgered her not to go outside and even prevented Curry from bringing her young daughter outside with her.
Lesson: If you see cops with guns and suspects with weapons get the hell out of the way. If you dont want cops to do thier job then dont call us and you take the weapon away from the suspect. IDIOTS!
1. Tims was not defending himself, he went on a crazed rampage on a public bus and stabbed a juvenile
2. Officers tried less lethal options including Pepper spray.
3. Curry was inside of a fast food restaurant and went outside to "see what was going on" (her words)l
4. Employees and patrons of restaurant urgered her not to go outside and even prevented Curry from bringing her young daughter outside with her.
Lesson: If you see cops with guns and suspects with weapons get the hell out of the way. If you dont want cops to do thier job then dont call us and you take the weapon away from the suspect. IDIOTS!
I think I'll take your advice - I called the cops on a guy with what I thought was a weapon once, and he almost was killed. In retrospect, I think I should have "disarmed" him myself, either manually or verbally.
For the record, I don't blame the individual cops. They're trained that way, and I believe they weren't given the critical information I told the dispatcher, which was that the guy was NOT an immediate threat.
For the record, I don't blame the individual cops. They're trained that way, and I believe they weren't given the critical information I told the dispatcher, which was that the guy was NOT an immediate threat.
"I think I should have "disarmed" him myself, either manually or verbally."
yeah if more of you bleeding heart liberals would take this attitude, natural selection would progress faster down it's prescribed course and the rest of us would be a lot happier.
Not to mention that the cops would have less to do. Of course the homocide department and the Coroner might get a little overworked.
yeah if more of you bleeding heart liberals would take this attitude, natural selection would progress faster down it's prescribed course and the rest of us would be a lot happier.
Not to mention that the cops would have less to do. Of course the homocide department and the Coroner might get a little overworked.
It's so easy to piss liberals off. Just disagree with them. Of course you can try agreeing with them (as I attempted to do above), but that also seems to agitate them. I guess when liberals are together the just grunt and nod a lot to keep from pissing each other off? No wonder these radicals are so insignificant.
I just saw the post.
Are you a cop?
Just wondering, since you feel so stongly about supporting them.
Are you a cop?
Just wondering, since you feel so stongly about supporting them.
And if a citizen shoots a cop "by mistake," then what? Will the cops "stop whining"?
How can you people believe your own spewage for Christ's sake? IndyMedia never fails to amuse and amaze me. You guys crack me up! I'll give it to you guys, this has to be the most entertaining political forum on the internet!
No, I'm not a cop. I'm in no way related to the police, fbi, cia, government, congress, the supreme court, the Bush administration (Senior or W.), the Reagan administration, the assasination of Kennedy, I've never participated in COINTELPRO, I don't sell or use non-prescription medication, never been diagnosed with any mental illness, and perhaps my only vice is coming here and reading these absurdities you geniuses like to post.
"I'm in a bind here. It's Catch 22."
The answer is simple Nessie. Take the knife from the crook, kill him, and then cut your own throat. The world will once again be safe for democracy.
"And if a citizen shoots a cop "by mistake," then what? Will the cops "stop whining"?"
Try it and find out what happens you moron.
Want to know why I support cops? I had a good friend who was a police officer. He's dead now. He died in the line of duty on a routine domestic disturbance call in the middle of the night.
You people can't possibly be as stupid as you make yourselves out to be. It's like Giligan's Island in here for cryin' out loud!
No, I'm not a cop. I'm in no way related to the police, fbi, cia, government, congress, the supreme court, the Bush administration (Senior or W.), the Reagan administration, the assasination of Kennedy, I've never participated in COINTELPRO, I don't sell or use non-prescription medication, never been diagnosed with any mental illness, and perhaps my only vice is coming here and reading these absurdities you geniuses like to post.
"I'm in a bind here. It's Catch 22."
The answer is simple Nessie. Take the knife from the crook, kill him, and then cut your own throat. The world will once again be safe for democracy.
"And if a citizen shoots a cop "by mistake," then what? Will the cops "stop whining"?"
Try it and find out what happens you moron.
Want to know why I support cops? I had a good friend who was a police officer. He's dead now. He died in the line of duty on a routine domestic disturbance call in the middle of the night.
You people can't possibly be as stupid as you make yourselves out to be. It's like Giligan's Island in here for cryin' out loud!
"Next to JoJo, we look like Einstien."
The truest Chinese proverb: "The eye can not see itself."
If ignorance is bliss then I'd wager Nessie walks around with a perpetual smile on his face. I always love when someone makes reference to how intelligent they, themselves are. Then they misspell a key word like Einstein. Spelling of course being an insignificant issue, unless your professing your own intelligence.
I happen to have read many of the comments posted by these “trolls”. These “trolls” are my IndymMedia heros. Danny Thomas, JoJo Gunn, brigg. They routinely come here and battle you “Einstiens” in your own open forum and routinely make you look as pathetic as many of you are.
“Providing the venue for a debate club is secondary. It must not be allowed to get in the way of our primary mission.”
I have a new IndyMedia slogan that I’d like to try out on you. Tell me what you think. It goes like this:
INDYMEDIA: THE FORUM WHERE DISSENT AMONG DISSIDENTS IS NOT ALLOWED!
Nessie, please extend me the courtesy of adding me to your list of trolls. I plan to be around for a while.
.
The truest Chinese proverb: "The eye can not see itself."
If ignorance is bliss then I'd wager Nessie walks around with a perpetual smile on his face. I always love when someone makes reference to how intelligent they, themselves are. Then they misspell a key word like Einstein. Spelling of course being an insignificant issue, unless your professing your own intelligence.
I happen to have read many of the comments posted by these “trolls”. These “trolls” are my IndymMedia heros. Danny Thomas, JoJo Gunn, brigg. They routinely come here and battle you “Einstiens” in your own open forum and routinely make you look as pathetic as many of you are.
“Providing the venue for a debate club is secondary. It must not be allowed to get in the way of our primary mission.”
I have a new IndyMedia slogan that I’d like to try out on you. Tell me what you think. It goes like this:
INDYMEDIA: THE FORUM WHERE DISSENT AMONG DISSIDENTS IS NOT ALLOWED!
Nessie, please extend me the courtesy of adding me to your list of trolls. I plan to be around for a while.
.
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by the way, you are all a bunch of fuckin hypocrits!!!!
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If you can't beat em, spam em.
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by the way, you are all a bunch of fuckin hypocrits!!!!
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eat fritos.
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Stop whining about your dead pig friend Eric.
Good to see you'll be around, Eric. I like knowing who the racists are. When are you and your fellow cracker skinhead friends going to come to Oakland? I look forward to meeting you.
I haven't seen eric use a racially derogatory term (although I haven't read every post on the site) but:
"I like knowing who the racists are. When are you and your fellow cracker skinhead friends going to come to Oakland?"
Cracker?
Who's the racist, my man?
"I like knowing who the racists are. When are you and your fellow cracker skinhead friends going to come to Oakland?"
Cracker?
Who's the racist, my man?
the reverse racism routine. Can't you conservative whites be original at least?
You haven't seen the racist diatribes by Eric. I think it's fine to call a white racist like Eric a cracker or any other choice words. He is a racist and that is the main point.
As far as using the term "cracker", calling a white person a "cracker" is not racist, no matter what the circumstance. It's not the same thing as being called "spic" or "nigger." People of color don't have the political or economic power in this country to oppress whites. It's Latinos and Blacks that are thrown in jails and prisons and that lack access to education and healthcare disproportionately in this country, not the other way around. When people use the word "cracker", they are responding to racism. A real anti-racist white person who understands that would not be offended by the term.
You haven't seen the racist diatribes by Eric. I think it's fine to call a white racist like Eric a cracker or any other choice words. He is a racist and that is the main point.
As far as using the term "cracker", calling a white person a "cracker" is not racist, no matter what the circumstance. It's not the same thing as being called "spic" or "nigger." People of color don't have the political or economic power in this country to oppress whites. It's Latinos and Blacks that are thrown in jails and prisons and that lack access to education and healthcare disproportionately in this country, not the other way around. When people use the word "cracker", they are responding to racism. A real anti-racist white person who understands that would not be offended by the term.
"You haven't seen the racist diatribes by Eric."
Show me one you sniveling punk.
You can call me anything you like Che, you're not hurting my feelings any. I consider it a compliment coming from the likes of you.
"As far as using the term "cracker", calling a white person a "cracker" is not racist, no matter what the circumstance."
Is this guy an idiot or what? Oh, now he's gonna call me a racist for calling him an idiot. Typical leftist pavlovian scumbag chirping up with a typical leftist buzzword. Means absolutely nothing. We conservatives are desensitized to the word. Numb.
"It's Latinos and Blacks that are thrown in jails and prisons and that lack access to education and healthcare disproportionately in this country, not the other way around."
Oh horse shit. I got the same public education as any other "person of color" in my neighborhood, 70% of which wound up in jail as a direct result of insufficient emphasis on family values and child raising. But they're making progress. Give 'em a few more generations.
"A real anti-racist white person who understands that would not be offended by the term. "
I am far from offended by the term. I find it laughable and am amused by your ignorance, as are all anti-racist people, regardless of color. Please keep flapping your jaws and spewing your drivel. It amuses me.
"When are you and your fellow cracker skinhead friends going to come to Oakland? I look forward to meeting you."
I already told you to post your address so I can pay you a visit, but you're too chicken shit to do it. You're like a chiwahwah. All bark and no bite (yawn)...
Show me one you sniveling punk.
You can call me anything you like Che, you're not hurting my feelings any. I consider it a compliment coming from the likes of you.
"As far as using the term "cracker", calling a white person a "cracker" is not racist, no matter what the circumstance."
Is this guy an idiot or what? Oh, now he's gonna call me a racist for calling him an idiot. Typical leftist pavlovian scumbag chirping up with a typical leftist buzzword. Means absolutely nothing. We conservatives are desensitized to the word. Numb.
"It's Latinos and Blacks that are thrown in jails and prisons and that lack access to education and healthcare disproportionately in this country, not the other way around."
Oh horse shit. I got the same public education as any other "person of color" in my neighborhood, 70% of which wound up in jail as a direct result of insufficient emphasis on family values and child raising. But they're making progress. Give 'em a few more generations.
"A real anti-racist white person who understands that would not be offended by the term. "
I am far from offended by the term. I find it laughable and am amused by your ignorance, as are all anti-racist people, regardless of color. Please keep flapping your jaws and spewing your drivel. It amuses me.
"When are you and your fellow cracker skinhead friends going to come to Oakland? I look forward to meeting you."
I already told you to post your address so I can pay you a visit, but you're too chicken shit to do it. You're like a chiwahwah. All bark and no bite (yawn)...
And on a side note...
Have you noticed how boring things have been around here since Smashy, JoJo, Racer X and I have stopped posting on Indybay??
Sad, sad, sad...
Have you noticed how boring things have been around here since Smashy, JoJo, Racer X and I have stopped posting on Indybay??
Sad, sad, sad...
Chihuahua, you dumbshit. How can I expect you to be able to follow the directions to my hood?
Is that the BEST you can do, Che-wah-wah old boy? Can't come back at me any better than that? No balls, so you wanna challenge me to a spelling-bee? Perhaps you just need some Taco Bell to make you feel better che-wah-wah. woof! woof!
And how does it make you feel that this public school educated, "racist", poor spelling white man is part of the conspiracy to keep the "people of color" down in this great nation of ours? That must make you feel very irritated. Like when you get a bad case of fleas, or the mange. woof! woof!
And how does it make you feel that this public school educated, "racist", poor spelling white man is part of the conspiracy to keep the "people of color" down in this great nation of ours? That must make you feel very irritated. Like when you get a bad case of fleas, or the mange. woof! woof!
Racism is racism - and it's all wrong... If you can justify using derogatory terms for one group you can for any other group...
So - do you want to continue being part of the problem, or would you like to be part of the solution (for a change)?
So - do you want to continue being part of the problem, or would you like to be part of the solution (for a change)?
It's ridiculous for you to think, filter, that people of color in this country can be racist. You fail to see and ignore the racism in the country today. You have to be a reactionary to not look at the pillars of power in this country and see how it is dominated by wealthy white males. Plus, to think that the legacy and history of racism in the US towards Blacks and Latinos doesn't have any consequences today is just plain stupid. There is no equal playing field.
Filter, are white males being rounded up like Arabs and Latinos in this country right now? I didn't think so.
Filter, are white males being rounded up like Arabs and Latinos in this country right now? I didn't think so.
"It's ridiculous for you to think, filter, that people of color in this country can be racist."
That's a patenly prejudicial statement Che. All people share same biology and there is nothing unique about "persons of color" that prevents narrow-minded thinking. Want proof? Read Malcom X's biography or just simply walk around with your eyes and your mind open.
Seeing More Than Black & White
Elizabeth Martinez
". . .A glimpse at the next century tells us how much we need to look beyond the white/Black model of race relations and racism. White/Black are real poles, central to the history of U.S. racism. We can neither ignore them nor stop there. But our effectiveness in fighting racism depends on seeing the changes taking place, trying to perceive the contours of the future. From the time of the Greeks to the present, racism around the world has had certain commonalties but no permanently fixed character. It is evolving again today, and we'd best labor to read the new faces of this Hydra-headed monster. Remember, for every head that Hydra lost it grew two more.
Sometimes the problem seems so clear. Last year I showed slides of Chicano history to a Oakland high school class with 47 African Americans and three Latino students. The images included lynchings and police beatings of Mexicans and other Latinos, and many years of resistance. At the end one Black student asked, "Seems like we have had a lot of experiences in common--so why can't Blacks and Mexicans get along better?" No answers, but there was the first step: asking the question."
That's a patenly prejudicial statement Che. All people share same biology and there is nothing unique about "persons of color" that prevents narrow-minded thinking. Want proof? Read Malcom X's biography or just simply walk around with your eyes and your mind open.
Seeing More Than Black & White
Elizabeth Martinez
". . .A glimpse at the next century tells us how much we need to look beyond the white/Black model of race relations and racism. White/Black are real poles, central to the history of U.S. racism. We can neither ignore them nor stop there. But our effectiveness in fighting racism depends on seeing the changes taking place, trying to perceive the contours of the future. From the time of the Greeks to the present, racism around the world has had certain commonalties but no permanently fixed character. It is evolving again today, and we'd best labor to read the new faces of this Hydra-headed monster. Remember, for every head that Hydra lost it grew two more.
Sometimes the problem seems so clear. Last year I showed slides of Chicano history to a Oakland high school class with 47 African Americans and three Latino students. The images included lynchings and police beatings of Mexicans and other Latinos, and many years of resistance. At the end one Black student asked, "Seems like we have had a lot of experiences in common--so why can't Blacks and Mexicans get along better?" No answers, but there was the first step: asking the question."
For more information:
http://www.zmag.org/zmag/articles/mrtinez2...
Just because a person is of color does NOT mean they cannot be a racist - or because of being that color they are excused from making racist or derogatory comments.
I am well aware of the white male dominated power base in this country - and am just as subject to their whims as you... But this country was founded by white-males, so you would expect them to want to retain that power, wouldn't you? I'm not trying to comment on whether that's right or wrong, but complaining about white males being in power in the US is like going to China and complaining that the power base is entirely Asian males.
I agree - there is no even playing field. But having said that, there is more opportunity for people of color (or whites, in fact) here than anywhere else in the world.
As for your last comment - disregarding the conspiracy theories floating around, the attacks were perpetrated by Arabs. I'm only aware of one Latino being arrested (in Chicago). If you reported that an orange person broke into your house, would you expect to see green people in the lineup?
I am well aware of the white male dominated power base in this country - and am just as subject to their whims as you... But this country was founded by white-males, so you would expect them to want to retain that power, wouldn't you? I'm not trying to comment on whether that's right or wrong, but complaining about white males being in power in the US is like going to China and complaining that the power base is entirely Asian males.
I agree - there is no even playing field. But having said that, there is more opportunity for people of color (or whites, in fact) here than anywhere else in the world.
As for your last comment - disregarding the conspiracy theories floating around, the attacks were perpetrated by Arabs. I'm only aware of one Latino being arrested (in Chicago). If you reported that an orange person broke into your house, would you expect to see green people in the lineup?
I have no idea what you're trying to argue. I'm not saying multiracial solidarity isn't possible. You're reading way too much into what I'm saying. I'm saying that racism experienced by blacks and latinos is very real and that it's going to create certain responses of resistence (rebellion, riots, racial conflict), all of which need to be understood. The point is not so much to criticize the victims of racism, but to recognize and validate the racism that exists and come together to fight it.
You referred to Malcolm X. Well, he also said that blacks cannot be racist. He said that if some white person comes to lynch a black person, and the black person kills the white person in self defense, then that's not racist. I agree with that.
You referred to Malcolm X. Well, he also said that blacks cannot be racist. He said that if some white person comes to lynch a black person, and the black person kills the white person in self defense, then that's not racist. I agree with that.
In case you haven't noticed, dumbass, I'm not wasting too much of my time responding to you. You're not worth that much of my time. It's a pity we couldn't go to the same school. I would have enjoyed kicking the shit out of you on a daily basis.
You haven't said anything racist? Rather than look through the mostly sexist posts you've done to find a racist comment, I'll just point out your latest one.
"I got the same public education as any other "person of color" in my neighborhood, 70% of which wound up in jail as a direct result of insufficient emphasis on family values and child raising."
Your reference to blacks having "insufficient family values and child raising" smacks of racism. If you don't see it or don't want to see, that's fine. Assuming that you even went to a ordinary "public school" (not all public schools are poorly funded. there are some in affluent neighborhoods that are quite well funded.), to use that as proof as why "70% of blacks in your school ended up in jail" is racist and ignores the racism that blacks actually experience in their daily lives. Racism doesn't happen in just isolated events or situations. It occurs everyday and all the time: in the class room, in the streets when the cops are harassing black youth, in job discrimination, etc. As a white male, Eric, believe it or not, you have a better chance at getting a job (any job) than a black person with similar skills, qualifications. You don't want to believe that, that's fine. You obviously are one who thinks that our schools don't need better funding and that both white and blacks would benefit from that.
So, where is your white, cracker, racist ass coming from to get to Oakand? La Jolla? Beverly Hills? I want to know so I can give you directions to my hood. I want to see how well you take a beating.
You haven't said anything racist? Rather than look through the mostly sexist posts you've done to find a racist comment, I'll just point out your latest one.
"I got the same public education as any other "person of color" in my neighborhood, 70% of which wound up in jail as a direct result of insufficient emphasis on family values and child raising."
Your reference to blacks having "insufficient family values and child raising" smacks of racism. If you don't see it or don't want to see, that's fine. Assuming that you even went to a ordinary "public school" (not all public schools are poorly funded. there are some in affluent neighborhoods that are quite well funded.), to use that as proof as why "70% of blacks in your school ended up in jail" is racist and ignores the racism that blacks actually experience in their daily lives. Racism doesn't happen in just isolated events or situations. It occurs everyday and all the time: in the class room, in the streets when the cops are harassing black youth, in job discrimination, etc. As a white male, Eric, believe it or not, you have a better chance at getting a job (any job) than a black person with similar skills, qualifications. You don't want to believe that, that's fine. You obviously are one who thinks that our schools don't need better funding and that both white and blacks would benefit from that.
So, where is your white, cracker, racist ass coming from to get to Oakand? La Jolla? Beverly Hills? I want to know so I can give you directions to my hood. I want to see how well you take a beating.
Nessie, et al.--
Racism is simply the belief that human beings are divided into genetically distinct races, with some races having genetic advantages or disadvantages that others do not. Thus for the racist, superiority/inferiority is very real and determined by our genes, passed through a racially segregated ("pure") past.
Nazis of course were true believers, but such deluded thinking occurs even today in relatively common misconceptions like: African-Americans are born with better muscles and reflexes making them better athletes; Asian-Americans are born with higher intelligence making them better students; Italian Americans are born with more passion making them better at emotional expression; etc., etc.
Of course, anyone familiar with modern DNA analysis knows that this belief has nothing to do with the truth. All human beings, from Australian Aborigines to Zulu tribesmen to Icelandic Norsemen show no signs of genetic purity or distinction from one another, so it can be truly said that there is only one race. Terms like Blacks or Latinos have as much scientific validity as national borders or lines of latitude--both are mere artificial constructs of human psychology.
Sadly, too often racism and prejudice are confused and used interchangeably, but make no mistake that racism and racist ideas can and do exist throughout all of humanity.
Racism is simply the belief that human beings are divided into genetically distinct races, with some races having genetic advantages or disadvantages that others do not. Thus for the racist, superiority/inferiority is very real and determined by our genes, passed through a racially segregated ("pure") past.
Nazis of course were true believers, but such deluded thinking occurs even today in relatively common misconceptions like: African-Americans are born with better muscles and reflexes making them better athletes; Asian-Americans are born with higher intelligence making them better students; Italian Americans are born with more passion making them better at emotional expression; etc., etc.
Of course, anyone familiar with modern DNA analysis knows that this belief has nothing to do with the truth. All human beings, from Australian Aborigines to Zulu tribesmen to Icelandic Norsemen show no signs of genetic purity or distinction from one another, so it can be truly said that there is only one race. Terms like Blacks or Latinos have as much scientific validity as national borders or lines of latitude--both are mere artificial constructs of human psychology.
Sadly, too often racism and prejudice are confused and used interchangeably, but make no mistake that racism and racist ideas can and do exist throughout all of humanity.
First of all, you with the dirty mouths are surely able to sound a bit more intelligent.
The fact of the matter is that five police officers should be able to detain a small person with only a knife using less than lethal force and keep from injuring a bystander. The cops obviously could have kicked the knife out of his hand or used their brains to outwit this man.
If you want to educate yourselves please read Micheal Parrenti's book Lockdown America. Even if you don't agree with everything in the book, one should be able to have a bit more of an interesting debate than shown in the previous posts. Just for curiosity's sake, are the people that have posted on this page men? I do agree that a police force can be useful in keeping the peace in such a large society if properly trained. While you guys are arguing, our "president" is a fascist that is using the Nazis' tactics to take our freedom and civil rights away. Stop bickering and pay attention. Let go of your ego for one moment and you might be surprised to see how much we have in common. Unless of course your a fan of Hitler.
Oh and one more thing. Radical means root. Radicals are the roots and liberals are not.
The fact of the matter is that five police officers should be able to detain a small person with only a knife using less than lethal force and keep from injuring a bystander. The cops obviously could have kicked the knife out of his hand or used their brains to outwit this man.
If you want to educate yourselves please read Micheal Parrenti's book Lockdown America. Even if you don't agree with everything in the book, one should be able to have a bit more of an interesting debate than shown in the previous posts. Just for curiosity's sake, are the people that have posted on this page men? I do agree that a police force can be useful in keeping the peace in such a large society if properly trained. While you guys are arguing, our "president" is a fascist that is using the Nazis' tactics to take our freedom and civil rights away. Stop bickering and pay attention. Let go of your ego for one moment and you might be surprised to see how much we have in common. Unless of course your a fan of Hitler.
Oh and one more thing. Radical means root. Radicals are the roots and liberals are not.
Nessie--
The difference is the belief or motivation behind the prejudice. As I said, racism stems from concepts based on genetic superiority/inferiority. However, "Culturalism" (the term I use in place of Prejudice) stems from beliefs that different sets of cultural ideas and values are superior/inferior to others.
For instance, a Culturalist may scoff at the blatant Racist propaganda of the KKK but readily agree that African-Americans have misplaced values; like placing a high priority on material possessions (like shoes, clothing, jewelry, cars, etc.) over more beneficial long-term investments like college funds, retirement savings, etc.
Now there are three aspects to such thinking that make Culturalism so difficult to challenge.
One; the "worthiness" of a given set of cultural values can not be scientifically measured against a universal standard. And for the most part, the assessment of cultural attitudes stems from individual experience often colored by personal biases.
Two; cultural values can only be understood against the goals they are meant to achieve. If different culture have different life goals, then it is all but impossible to argue the relative merit of one set of values versus another.
Three; every individual represents a matrix of intersecting cultures and sub-cultures (race, religion, geography, age, politics, money, education, etc.), so identifying specific core values and attributing their propagation to any one group can be very messy, and misconceptions tend to be the norm.
For what it it's worth, It's definitely a step up to be prejudiced (a Culturalist) rather than Racist. At least prejudiced individuals accept that human beings are not limited by genetically determined racial limitations.
The difference is the belief or motivation behind the prejudice. As I said, racism stems from concepts based on genetic superiority/inferiority. However, "Culturalism" (the term I use in place of Prejudice) stems from beliefs that different sets of cultural ideas and values are superior/inferior to others.
For instance, a Culturalist may scoff at the blatant Racist propaganda of the KKK but readily agree that African-Americans have misplaced values; like placing a high priority on material possessions (like shoes, clothing, jewelry, cars, etc.) over more beneficial long-term investments like college funds, retirement savings, etc.
Now there are three aspects to such thinking that make Culturalism so difficult to challenge.
One; the "worthiness" of a given set of cultural values can not be scientifically measured against a universal standard. And for the most part, the assessment of cultural attitudes stems from individual experience often colored by personal biases.
Two; cultural values can only be understood against the goals they are meant to achieve. If different culture have different life goals, then it is all but impossible to argue the relative merit of one set of values versus another.
Three; every individual represents a matrix of intersecting cultures and sub-cultures (race, religion, geography, age, politics, money, education, etc.), so identifying specific core values and attributing their propagation to any one group can be very messy, and misconceptions tend to be the norm.
For what it it's worth, It's definitely a step up to be prejudiced (a Culturalist) rather than Racist. At least prejudiced individuals accept that human beings are not limited by genetically determined racial limitations.
"Your reference to blacks having "insufficient family values and child raising" smacks of racism."
That's because you're too much of an idiot to understand what the statement means. Did I place the blame squarely upon their shoulders? No. In fact, I believe that it is primarily the white slave owners who are to blame. Slaves were not allowed to have "family units" and therefore never learned how to implement family values. It's only been 160+ years (roughly 3 generations) since blacks were slaves in this country. For decades after they continued to undergo repression. To a moderate degree, that may still be true today. But 70% of blacks don't end up in jail because they are inherently evil, nor is it because the white man is keeping them down. It's because of the lack of family values and the learned ability to properly raise children to be decent and upstanding citizens. I concede that in many ways it was thrust upon them, however, this is not the case today. The word that comes to mind here is "overcome".
"As a white male, Eric, believe it or not, you have a better chance at getting a job (any job) than a black person with similar skills, qualifications. "
Oh I completely believe it. There's a good reason for it too. The overwhelming opinion of the black community (stereotype) is that 70% of blacks are in jail. Blacks steal, fight, are confrontational, and are untrustworthy. The black community continues to propagate these stereotypes validating them by participating in these negative behaviors. Refusing to obtain a working knowledge of the English language instead of "wuz up mah nigga?" and "man dat be sum def shewz yew be spowtin'". Thrusting their head in gyrating circles when they speak. Being confrontational. In fact, the attitude you present Che, continues to propagate these attitudes. If you came to me for a job interview, and I was aware of your personal beliefs, there’s no way I would hire you. I don’t want the attitude and wouldn’t put up with your irrational mentality. Life’s a bitch, but if you wanna improve your standard of living then learn to fit in. Otherwise, go down to the Government offices and pick up yo welfare checks and yo block of cheese.
That's because you're too much of an idiot to understand what the statement means. Did I place the blame squarely upon their shoulders? No. In fact, I believe that it is primarily the white slave owners who are to blame. Slaves were not allowed to have "family units" and therefore never learned how to implement family values. It's only been 160+ years (roughly 3 generations) since blacks were slaves in this country. For decades after they continued to undergo repression. To a moderate degree, that may still be true today. But 70% of blacks don't end up in jail because they are inherently evil, nor is it because the white man is keeping them down. It's because of the lack of family values and the learned ability to properly raise children to be decent and upstanding citizens. I concede that in many ways it was thrust upon them, however, this is not the case today. The word that comes to mind here is "overcome".
"As a white male, Eric, believe it or not, you have a better chance at getting a job (any job) than a black person with similar skills, qualifications. "
Oh I completely believe it. There's a good reason for it too. The overwhelming opinion of the black community (stereotype) is that 70% of blacks are in jail. Blacks steal, fight, are confrontational, and are untrustworthy. The black community continues to propagate these stereotypes validating them by participating in these negative behaviors. Refusing to obtain a working knowledge of the English language instead of "wuz up mah nigga?" and "man dat be sum def shewz yew be spowtin'". Thrusting their head in gyrating circles when they speak. Being confrontational. In fact, the attitude you present Che, continues to propagate these attitudes. If you came to me for a job interview, and I was aware of your personal beliefs, there’s no way I would hire you. I don’t want the attitude and wouldn’t put up with your irrational mentality. Life’s a bitch, but if you wanna improve your standard of living then learn to fit in. Otherwise, go down to the Government offices and pick up yo welfare checks and yo block of cheese.
Works for me, I hear the distinction you're making. It's useful, up to a point. The Nazis were definitely unique in justifying their racism in biological terms and the threat they posed to humanity. But, I don't think your definition of "culturalism" is too useful. For one, it ignores that fact that actual racists- from the KKK to your more "respectable" John Ashcroft kind- blur that distinction all the time. One easily can go from "oh, that group has different values that don't make them successful" to "and they smell funny, look funny too."
Also, your definition is the liberal's definition of pluralism. The view that different cultures should learn to view other cultures with mutual respect and tolerance and then we will all get along. Well, that just ignores the fact that there are racists and rich people on the top of society that have an interest in using racism to divide the rest of us and that the people at the top need to be overthrown.
Also, your definition is the liberal's definition of pluralism. The view that different cultures should learn to view other cultures with mutual respect and tolerance and then we will all get along. Well, that just ignores the fact that there are racists and rich people on the top of society that have an interest in using racism to divide the rest of us and that the people at the top need to be overthrown.
"You obviously are one who thinks that our schools don't need better funding and that both white and blacks would benefit from that."
I would urge you to support the vouchers program. Then even your children may be able to get into private school.
And as to where I'd be coming from if I were to come visit you, that would be South Carolina. We have the poorest performing public schools in the nation. But guess what? I got a good enough education at them to get into college and get a degree in Electronics Engineering. And I worked my way through college while supporting a family, wife and 2 children. I've lived in the south my entire life, and I've had friends that I hung out with constantly that are black that would tell you to shut the hell up. You are spouting off at the mouth and don't know what the hell you're talking about.
I would urge you to support the vouchers program. Then even your children may be able to get into private school.
And as to where I'd be coming from if I were to come visit you, that would be South Carolina. We have the poorest performing public schools in the nation. But guess what? I got a good enough education at them to get into college and get a degree in Electronics Engineering. And I worked my way through college while supporting a family, wife and 2 children. I've lived in the south my entire life, and I've had friends that I hung out with constantly that are black that would tell you to shut the hell up. You are spouting off at the mouth and don't know what the hell you're talking about.
Hmmm...from S. Carolina, eh? That explains your white, backward attitude. haha
The voucher program? Just another way to take more funding away from public schools and working class families to give to the well-to-do.
Electrical engineering? Sure you didn't go into the Navy first for that? I would have thought- with your mastery of "ebonics"- that you were an expert on linguistics. I'm wrong about something for once.
You don't have to come visit me in Oakland. I know black longshoremen in the ILA in S. Carolina that would love to "talk" with you. What's your address? The ILA beat your State govt. and made the State take down the confederate flag. How do you like that?
The voucher program? Just another way to take more funding away from public schools and working class families to give to the well-to-do.
Electrical engineering? Sure you didn't go into the Navy first for that? I would have thought- with your mastery of "ebonics"- that you were an expert on linguistics. I'm wrong about something for once.
You don't have to come visit me in Oakland. I know black longshoremen in the ILA in S. Carolina that would love to "talk" with you. What's your address? The ILA beat your State govt. and made the State take down the confederate flag. How do you like that?
"And as to where I'd be coming from if I were to come visit you, that would be South Carolina. "
Why have right wing people from all over the country congregated on the SF Indymedia site? There dozens of other Indymedia sites all over the US. Even more curious is why many of these same people were hanging out on a UC Berkeley site before they found this site.
As for the vouchers thing. Its a pretty weird issue. The religious right mainly picked this up so they could set up religious private schools to take the place of public schools that are now banning certain religious activities. Much of the nonreligious left originally opposed vouchers for this reason.
Then, teachers unions saw this issue as an attempt to undermine public schools in general. This came from a realization that most wealthy Republican supporters of vouchers came to support them since they already sent their kids to private schools and vouchers could be used to cover only part of the cost of these schools. With only partial funding, vouchers would be an easy way to introduce even more economic (and perhaps racial) segregation.While vouchers are now being sold as a way for poor people to also get a private education, the low level of the vouchers compared to the costs of existing private schools means that this is not the case with most of the proposed programs.
Strangely, many religious people have come to oppose vouchers since they could result in greater regulation of private schools if they take off. There is also a possible fear that alternative schools and other nonChristian schools (Islamic schools, Jewish schools, Marxist schools, etc…) will receive funding. So now you have mainly economic conservatives supporting vouchers for neoliberal ideological reasons combined with self-interest (having many of their kids in private schools already)
The weird part about vouchers is that if someone mentions it you know where they are coming from. It’s not a Left-Right issue but really a partisan issue between the Democrats and Republicans based off two of these parties major pressure groups.
Why have right wing people from all over the country congregated on the SF Indymedia site? There dozens of other Indymedia sites all over the US. Even more curious is why many of these same people were hanging out on a UC Berkeley site before they found this site.
As for the vouchers thing. Its a pretty weird issue. The religious right mainly picked this up so they could set up religious private schools to take the place of public schools that are now banning certain religious activities. Much of the nonreligious left originally opposed vouchers for this reason.
Then, teachers unions saw this issue as an attempt to undermine public schools in general. This came from a realization that most wealthy Republican supporters of vouchers came to support them since they already sent their kids to private schools and vouchers could be used to cover only part of the cost of these schools. With only partial funding, vouchers would be an easy way to introduce even more economic (and perhaps racial) segregation.While vouchers are now being sold as a way for poor people to also get a private education, the low level of the vouchers compared to the costs of existing private schools means that this is not the case with most of the proposed programs.
Strangely, many religious people have come to oppose vouchers since they could result in greater regulation of private schools if they take off. There is also a possible fear that alternative schools and other nonChristian schools (Islamic schools, Jewish schools, Marxist schools, etc…) will receive funding. So now you have mainly economic conservatives supporting vouchers for neoliberal ideological reasons combined with self-interest (having many of their kids in private schools already)
The weird part about vouchers is that if someone mentions it you know where they are coming from. It’s not a Left-Right issue but really a partisan issue between the Democrats and Republicans based off two of these parties major pressure groups.
"Sure you didn't go into the Navy first for that?"
As a matter of fact, I did serve 12 years in the Navy. The military paid 75% of my tuition while I was in and the GI Bill picked up 100% of the rest when I got out. There's not a black citizen in this country who couldn't have done the exact same thing. Serve your country well, and it will do the same for you. Now I work for an international contractor and made quite a chunk of change last year. I take care-a mah kiddzzz!
"I'm wrong about something for once."
You're wrong about 90% of the time.
As far as anyone making anyone take down the confederate battle flag, it was simply ruled that they couldn't fly it on the capitol building in Columbia. It was moved to a private office building across the street. People are still flying them all over the south, not just SC. It's part of our heritage. The NAACP was just down here on the interstate trying to boycott SC because of it and there was a group 3 times the size across the highway advocating the flag. The NAACP got run off because they were illegally congregating.
My personal opinion is that if you find the flag bothersome, you're a fragile individual that needs to grow a thicker skin. I don't get offended when I see someone with a Malcolm X hat on. As we say down here in the south, "you wear you X and I'll wear mine". Live and let live, so to speak.
As far as posting my address, HAR! To quote one of my favorite indybay personalities:
"What a hollywood, false front, back lot, B-movie, video game, thunderous bar chord signifying nothing socialist piece of shit you are!"
Post my address. Right after you che-wah-wah. Right after you.
And I bet when your friends from SC met me they'd like me sooo much they'd probably turn on you and wanna make a road trip out to "yo hood" to take care business for me.
As a matter of fact, I did serve 12 years in the Navy. The military paid 75% of my tuition while I was in and the GI Bill picked up 100% of the rest when I got out. There's not a black citizen in this country who couldn't have done the exact same thing. Serve your country well, and it will do the same for you. Now I work for an international contractor and made quite a chunk of change last year. I take care-a mah kiddzzz!
"I'm wrong about something for once."
You're wrong about 90% of the time.
As far as anyone making anyone take down the confederate battle flag, it was simply ruled that they couldn't fly it on the capitol building in Columbia. It was moved to a private office building across the street. People are still flying them all over the south, not just SC. It's part of our heritage. The NAACP was just down here on the interstate trying to boycott SC because of it and there was a group 3 times the size across the highway advocating the flag. The NAACP got run off because they were illegally congregating.
My personal opinion is that if you find the flag bothersome, you're a fragile individual that needs to grow a thicker skin. I don't get offended when I see someone with a Malcolm X hat on. As we say down here in the south, "you wear you X and I'll wear mine". Live and let live, so to speak.
As far as posting my address, HAR! To quote one of my favorite indybay personalities:
"What a hollywood, false front, back lot, B-movie, video game, thunderous bar chord signifying nothing socialist piece of shit you are!"
Post my address. Right after you che-wah-wah. Right after you.
And I bet when your friends from SC met me they'd like me sooo much they'd probably turn on you and wanna make a road trip out to "yo hood" to take care business for me.
"Why have right wing people from all over the country congregated on the SF Indymedia site?"
Because the whole country knows Berkeley and SF are where the liberals are at. It's the brunt of the national joke. You don't go to Death Valley if you wanna shoot a koola and you don't go to the outback if you kill a sidewinder. I wouldn't say we're congregating here though. Everyone is pretty much gone except for me and I'm on my way out the door. If it's wasn't for Che's loud mouth you'd be rid of me already. But the elections are almost here. That's all that really matters to us.
Because the whole country knows Berkeley and SF are where the liberals are at. It's the brunt of the national joke. You don't go to Death Valley if you wanna shoot a koola and you don't go to the outback if you kill a sidewinder. I wouldn't say we're congregating here though. Everyone is pretty much gone except for me and I'm on my way out the door. If it's wasn't for Che's loud mouth you'd be rid of me already. But the elections are almost here. That's all that really matters to us.
That doesn't surprise me one bit that you were in the Navy. I figured you are too much of a wimp to go into the Army or Marines. What a weak ass. haha
Seriously, I don't care what branch of the military you were in. The military attracts plenty of people, including people of color, as a way to get out of their community, "explore the world", or get money for school. The difference btwn you and other people who go into the military, though, is that you loved kissing uncle Sam's ass while you were in it and now you are kissing the ass of a company that is exploiting "free trade" and neoliberalism, whereas other people learn to see what a freaking joke, how hyprocritical and racist the military is.
Yea, course you don't have a problem with the confederate flag. It represents racism and you're a racist. You're of the same racist mold. Live and let live? Please, I say smash the racists in the south.
And, no, my longshoremen buddies wouldn't like you, sorry. They don't make any compromises with racists. What they would do is whoop on you some, like they did to those racist S. Carolina cops that tried to break their picket line, and then drink some beers afterwards.
By the way, you ain't no down whiteboy, cracker.
Seriously, I don't care what branch of the military you were in. The military attracts plenty of people, including people of color, as a way to get out of their community, "explore the world", or get money for school. The difference btwn you and other people who go into the military, though, is that you loved kissing uncle Sam's ass while you were in it and now you are kissing the ass of a company that is exploiting "free trade" and neoliberalism, whereas other people learn to see what a freaking joke, how hyprocritical and racist the military is.
Yea, course you don't have a problem with the confederate flag. It represents racism and you're a racist. You're of the same racist mold. Live and let live? Please, I say smash the racists in the south.
And, no, my longshoremen buddies wouldn't like you, sorry. They don't make any compromises with racists. What they would do is whoop on you some, like they did to those racist S. Carolina cops that tried to break their picket line, and then drink some beers afterwards.
By the way, you ain't no down whiteboy, cracker.
You obviously got a good public school education there in "o-town" huh? Yew ain't sum illiterit spic, is ya mooochacho?
Is this the same ILA you're talking about?
http://ilaunion.org/presreport.asp?l=2
You mean the one that has a white man fo da President? Gee boss, I dun taught I might owtah be dun gettin' nervous o sumpthin. Not to mention that these guys are guilty of criminal acts against dey own membahs.
You're absolutely right though. I ain't no "down" white boy. And being a part of the military beats the hell out of spending your days preaching the "repression of the colored folk" on indybay all day.
Is this the same ILA you're talking about?
http://ilaunion.org/presreport.asp?l=2
You mean the one that has a white man fo da President? Gee boss, I dun taught I might owtah be dun gettin' nervous o sumpthin. Not to mention that these guys are guilty of criminal acts against dey own membahs.
You're absolutely right though. I ain't no "down" white boy. And being a part of the military beats the hell out of spending your days preaching the "repression of the colored folk" on indybay all day.
I'm not from Oaktown, actually. I'm from the valley. It's as close to the south as you can get in California. There are plenty of stupid hicks like yourself there. So, I knew your kind right away when I saw you.
Try this link, you shit for brains. You have yourselves quite an attorney general there in S. Carolina. Too bad his political career is over.
http://ilaunion.org/news/news_c5_victory.asp
Try this link, you shit for brains. You have yourselves quite an attorney general there in S. Carolina. Too bad his political career is over.
http://ilaunion.org/news/news_c5_victory.asp
While you two are arguing about who is more racist our government is trying very hard to squish our civil rights. You know, "We the People...". Get over your macho egotistical selves and join a constructive critical debate where an outcome is reached. The police are waging a war on the poor and it doesn't sound like either of you are millionares, so get with it. Or are you too scared to have an intelligent conversation with a woman?
I know plenty of women, thank you. And a lot of them would be more than willing to and would be able to kick Eric's ass. So, I think this is less of an "ego" thing than a political thing.
Che--
I would argue that the blurring of Racism and Culturalism is the result of convoluted, unchallenged "common sense" and I would agree many people may have a blend of biases, but I do believe the distinction is relevant.
Case in point, some professional athletes really do believe African-Americans as a "race" are born physically superior, but yet also believe that all humans beings should have equal rights and equal opportunities. Knowing how and where a person's thinking strays off track is important if one wants to address their conceptual shortcomings. (Personally, I think prejudice reflects on our American culture's lack of respect for the sciences and abstract thinking, but that's another topic...)
Additionally, I do not believe in pluralism (other than as a tool to understand difference) because I do believe there are some cultural values more worthwhile than others (yes I have biases too). However, since I can't definitively claim that my standards are best, I tolerate and sometimes promote other standards as well. In fact, because I believe diversity is so tremendously powerful (as exemplified by evolution) I resist the notion of a singular best standard.
I would argue that the blurring of Racism and Culturalism is the result of convoluted, unchallenged "common sense" and I would agree many people may have a blend of biases, but I do believe the distinction is relevant.
Case in point, some professional athletes really do believe African-Americans as a "race" are born physically superior, but yet also believe that all humans beings should have equal rights and equal opportunities. Knowing how and where a person's thinking strays off track is important if one wants to address their conceptual shortcomings. (Personally, I think prejudice reflects on our American culture's lack of respect for the sciences and abstract thinking, but that's another topic...)
Additionally, I do not believe in pluralism (other than as a tool to understand difference) because I do believe there are some cultural values more worthwhile than others (yes I have biases too). However, since I can't definitively claim that my standards are best, I tolerate and sometimes promote other standards as well. In fact, because I believe diversity is so tremendously powerful (as exemplified by evolution) I resist the notion of a singular best standard.
You know many women, and in what context? What point are you trying to make? Have you ever read Stupid White Men by Micheal Moore? He looks at racism where a white guy claims to have many black friends, and Micheal Moore says, in effect, get off it. Friends are people that you have over for dinner and go on vacation with. Just because you have black or women "friends" doesn't mean that you aren't racist or sexist.
I'm not violent so I don't think that the ability to kick someone's ass proves intellectual superiority.
As for this not being an ego thing, just a political thing, since when do ego's not effect politics?
The fact remains that this world is an amazingly diverse and beautiful creation. It's too bad that a lot of people can't appreciate diversity and living art. Again, that book, Stupid White Men, might open up some of your minds.
And back to police brutality, please do research before we end up living in concentration camps. You can call me paranoid and I hope I'm not right. Although, the U.S. government is at this moment holding people without trial and families are not hearing word from their loved one's. This was on national news so you can't deny it.
I wish the public school system had taught the children better. But then again, an educated public is a dangerous public.
I'm not violent so I don't think that the ability to kick someone's ass proves intellectual superiority.
As for this not being an ego thing, just a political thing, since when do ego's not effect politics?
The fact remains that this world is an amazingly diverse and beautiful creation. It's too bad that a lot of people can't appreciate diversity and living art. Again, that book, Stupid White Men, might open up some of your minds.
And back to police brutality, please do research before we end up living in concentration camps. You can call me paranoid and I hope I'm not right. Although, the U.S. government is at this moment holding people without trial and families are not hearing word from their loved one's. This was on national news so you can't deny it.
I wish the public school system had taught the children better. But then again, an educated public is a dangerous public.
"You have yourselves quite an attorney general there in S. Carolina. Too bad his political career is over. "
Yeah, over. That's why he's running for Govenor this year. He has a good chance of winning too, since the current Democrap Govenor Jim Hodges is such an idiot.
Again, you've showed you're ability to spew forth on issues you know nothing about. How can one person get repeatedly trounced so many times and keep coming back for more? Che-wah-wah, you are a true glutton for punishment.
"You have yourselves quite an attorney general there in S. Carolina. Too bad his political career is over. "
Oh, don't blame it on the government. Credit is, where credit is due. Blame the freakin' liberals. Blame the 9th circuit court. Blame the idiots like che-wah-wah that call this website home.
But not to worry. November 5 is coming. Life's going to be a lot different after that.
"Get over your macho egotistical selves and join a constructive critical debate where an outcome is reached."
Name one issue that has ever been resolved here on indybay? You're obviously living in la-la-land if you think you're gonna solve anything by attempting to reason with these people around here. But since you are a liberal, you'll get along nicely with them. "Solidarity" HAR! Nice liberal buzzword moniker you got there. The only groups that scream about solidarity are those that don't have any. And they don't have any because they don't stand for any worthwhile causes. "Hey, let's save the baby seals man." or "I don't think the words 'under God' are constitional" or "our government is illegally detaining American citizens". No wonder you guys got no solidarity.
Here's a news flash for ya "Solidarity":
Just because a person has an American passport, it doesn't make him an American. Just because a person is born on American soil, or he has an American passport, that doesn't make him American. The same way a person can embrace blacks and still be racist, the same way a man can "know women" and still be anti-feminst, the same way a person can hang out with gays and still be "homophobic", a person can meet the criteria for calling himself American and still be an alien.
That's what's going on with the liberals. That's what's going on at Berkeley and in SF. That's what's going on at indybay. And that's why we've got enemy combatants that claim to be "American" locked up here in SC with no due process. You can scream about your "rights" all day long, but when it comes right down to it, when you get down to the nitty gritty, when all the bullshit layers are peeled away, there's no such thing as "rights". There's no God given right to do squat. What you're really talking about are "priviledges", and we give them to each other. I give you yours and you give me mine. Abuse 'em and lose 'em. That's what the liberals are doing. And that's where your "civil rights" are going. Thank 'em for me, will ya?
Yeah, over. That's why he's running for Govenor this year. He has a good chance of winning too, since the current Democrap Govenor Jim Hodges is such an idiot.
Again, you've showed you're ability to spew forth on issues you know nothing about. How can one person get repeatedly trounced so many times and keep coming back for more? Che-wah-wah, you are a true glutton for punishment.
"You have yourselves quite an attorney general there in S. Carolina. Too bad his political career is over. "
Oh, don't blame it on the government. Credit is, where credit is due. Blame the freakin' liberals. Blame the 9th circuit court. Blame the idiots like che-wah-wah that call this website home.
But not to worry. November 5 is coming. Life's going to be a lot different after that.
"Get over your macho egotistical selves and join a constructive critical debate where an outcome is reached."
Name one issue that has ever been resolved here on indybay? You're obviously living in la-la-land if you think you're gonna solve anything by attempting to reason with these people around here. But since you are a liberal, you'll get along nicely with them. "Solidarity" HAR! Nice liberal buzzword moniker you got there. The only groups that scream about solidarity are those that don't have any. And they don't have any because they don't stand for any worthwhile causes. "Hey, let's save the baby seals man." or "I don't think the words 'under God' are constitional" or "our government is illegally detaining American citizens". No wonder you guys got no solidarity.
Here's a news flash for ya "Solidarity":
Just because a person has an American passport, it doesn't make him an American. Just because a person is born on American soil, or he has an American passport, that doesn't make him American. The same way a person can embrace blacks and still be racist, the same way a man can "know women" and still be anti-feminst, the same way a person can hang out with gays and still be "homophobic", a person can meet the criteria for calling himself American and still be an alien.
That's what's going on with the liberals. That's what's going on at Berkeley and in SF. That's what's going on at indybay. And that's why we've got enemy combatants that claim to be "American" locked up here in SC with no due process. You can scream about your "rights" all day long, but when it comes right down to it, when you get down to the nitty gritty, when all the bullshit layers are peeled away, there's no such thing as "rights". There's no God given right to do squat. What you're really talking about are "priviledges", and we give them to each other. I give you yours and you give me mine. Abuse 'em and lose 'em. That's what the liberals are doing. And that's where your "civil rights" are going. Thank 'em for me, will ya?
I was just challenging your point, or at least what I thought you were implying, that it's a "male" thing to have a heated political exchange. I don't want you to read into my exchange with Eric the racist too much. The guy is a sick reactionary. One, I'm just doing it to aggravate him and distract myself from work. I'm not trying to change his position. He is going to be a racist till he dies. Two, it's not like I waste my time arguing with racists all the time.
Also, I know plenty of women who are sharp and articulate politically. I know them from activist circles and from just everyday life. They are strong women that don't take shit from sexist men, their bosses or anywhere.
I'm aware of the attack on our civil liberties. Yes, we are moving toward a police state. For Arabs and immigrants, we are already there. Course, it's a logical outcome of a racist system that is based on profit and war. That's why capitalism and its defenderss, like Eric, need to be smashed. I know about Michael Moore and his book. I think he is to soft on the Democrats. The Democrats are part of the problem.
Also, I know plenty of women who are sharp and articulate politically. I know them from activist circles and from just everyday life. They are strong women that don't take shit from sexist men, their bosses or anywhere.
I'm aware of the attack on our civil liberties. Yes, we are moving toward a police state. For Arabs and immigrants, we are already there. Course, it's a logical outcome of a racist system that is based on profit and war. That's why capitalism and its defenderss, like Eric, need to be smashed. I know about Michael Moore and his book. I think he is to soft on the Democrats. The Democrats are part of the problem.
Oooooooongawa! Che-che-wah-wah smash reactionary Eric! Boom, boom!
You make me laugh, you little twit.
You make me laugh, you little twit.
Please stop picking on me, you big racist bully. You being all the way over there in S. Carolina, all comfy with your overpaid job, sitting in your comfy chair with crumbs all over your face and big belly. What a tough ex- Navy boy, you are. Bet you learned a lot of discipline and toughness getting all those paper cuts while studying when you were in the Navy. Quit, Eric, you're scaring me.
Oh c'mon che-wah-wah. You know I'd never pick on you, you little shit. You're my favorite turd. I have better things to do than put fear into spoiled little rich kids from the valley, whose parents show them such little attention that they have to come on the internet and pass themselves off as under-priviledged hispanic kids. How pathetic a plea for attention. "Oh look at me. I am a minority battling the big, bad racist corporate America". When in reality, you got a better education at the private school your mommy sent you to than 90% of those kids. Why don't you find some other schtick. You're a faker. On here correcting people's spelling and grammar. With your cushy little office job, volunteer work at some NGO, because your parents are so wealthy it's sickening. I bet you even drive a volvo.
I'm a rich kid. You got me there. Everyone in the valley is rich. We all have huge, impractical SUVs and benefit off cheap immigrant labor there.
Nice try, navy boy. You sure did put that govt. money to good use. You went and got yourself a useless, pile of shit brain. Course, that's what the military is good at. Throwing money away in sink holes.
Nice try, navy boy. You sure did put that govt. money to good use. You went and got yourself a useless, pile of shit brain. Course, that's what the military is good at. Throwing money away in sink holes.
Yea, your attorney general is running for governor. That's good. That's something else he can be defeated in too, then. He tried to take on the longshoremen and the Union and lost. If he wants to try doing that as governor, he is mistaking.
And why would you be so hostile to the Democraps? They are the party of the slave holders and dixie crats. You should like them for that.
And why would you be so hostile to the Democraps? They are the party of the slave holders and dixie crats. You should like them for that.
Too bad you jump to such hasty conclusions. First of all I protest because I love my country and don't want to see it taken over by the fascist Nazi regime. You may be racist but I'm sure you don't want to become enslaved, mentally or physically.
You also aren't able to see that their are many shades of gray between black and white. I'm not a liberal; I consider myself to be a radical anarchist, although I really don't like having to give myself a label. But if it will help you to understand I will.. The word radical means roots and I stand for myself and my fellow human family.
If you haven't noticed, clean air and water are necessary for your continued existence on this planet. I try to help the brainwashed masses understand that simple fact.
See Eric. Che and I have both strengthened our points by having dialogue. Just because people disagree on issues or have misunderstandings doesn't mean that we don't have solidartiy. Good healthy debate strengthens the arguments and minds of the people involved, although the people have to be willing to admit their mistakes in order for personal growth to occur. Hopefully we can all agree on one thing, that we don't want this version of Hitler to be allowed to continue massacering people around the world. If you need to research the atrocities that are happening to be more informed, go to http://www.commondreams.org.
You also aren't able to see that their are many shades of gray between black and white. I'm not a liberal; I consider myself to be a radical anarchist, although I really don't like having to give myself a label. But if it will help you to understand I will.. The word radical means roots and I stand for myself and my fellow human family.
If you haven't noticed, clean air and water are necessary for your continued existence on this planet. I try to help the brainwashed masses understand that simple fact.
See Eric. Che and I have both strengthened our points by having dialogue. Just because people disagree on issues or have misunderstandings doesn't mean that we don't have solidartiy. Good healthy debate strengthens the arguments and minds of the people involved, although the people have to be willing to admit their mistakes in order for personal growth to occur. Hopefully we can all agree on one thing, that we don't want this version of Hitler to be allowed to continue massacering people around the world. If you need to research the atrocities that are happening to be more informed, go to http://www.commondreams.org.
The longshoremen? Why do you keep babbling about them? You never addressed the fact that they are run by White America. You never metioned why they have a white President, or why Frank Scollo, their Vice President has been indicted by a Federal Grand Jury in NY on charges that he was ripping off the health care benifits money (you so like to rant about) of the ILA members. What about that?? If you're not going to address the facts, what's the point in screaming ILA every other sentence?? Mayby I should just scream NSO, or KKK, or CIA every other word and look as stupid as you.
And you keep ranting about Attorney General Charlie Condon (soon to be Govenor) as if you know what the hell you're talking about. Don't believe all the activist propaganda you read on the internet. The ILA just want you to pay your dues so their Officers can fatten their wallets. Get a clue.
And you keep ranting about Attorney General Charlie Condon (soon to be Govenor) as if you know what the hell you're talking about. Don't believe all the activist propaganda you read on the internet. The ILA just want you to pay your dues so their Officers can fatten their wallets. Get a clue.
The president of the local in S. Carolina is black, actually. And there are blacks and whites in the Union there in S. Carolina. As far as the International president being white, that's fine. It's called multiracial solidarity. That's something that you don't want to comprehend cause you're a fucking klansman.
You just keep on sticking your head in the sand and believing whatever lies you're fed, just because they claim to be "activists" even though they're taking member dues for healthcare and puffing up they're bank accounts with 'em. Don't worry your little head none, cause while you're Hispanic children are still going to the local public schools, getting raped, shot and beat up by the local gang bangers, ILA President John Bowers kids will be at the Private Magnet school he sends 'em too (wit yo money, homey) and in 25 years when both your and his kids are grown, it will be you children kissin' his children's asses, just the same as it's you kissin' his right now!
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