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Groups Demand End to 'Hate Radio'
by John C.
Wednesday Apr 24th, 2002 7:23 PM
Home grown radio host under attack in Portland.
Michael Savage's nationally syndicated radio show is so filled with hate and bigotry that it could incite violence against immigrants and minorities, a coalition of area church and civic leaders contended Wednesday.


The coalition demanded an end to what they call "hate radio" and called on radio station KXL, owned by billionaire Paul Allen, to drop Savage's show, called "Savage Nation."


"We urge those who have the privilege of shaping public opinion that ... words can indeed hurt and can incite people to actions that result in injury and even death," said David A. Leslie, director of Ecumenical Ministries of Oregon, one of the coalition's members.



Button worn at news conference by opponent of a program on KXL Radio. (KGW Photo)

Tom Nelson, another spokesman for the coalition, called Savage Nation's contents "an unbroken stream of hate and chauvinism directed against women, people of color, liberals, immigrants and in particular people of Middle Eastern heritage and people of the Muslim faith.


"We condemn this message of hate," he said.


Savage said the coalition's descriptions of him as a racist and a bigot are nothing but an attempt to shut him up.


"If they are calling me these names ... they are interfering with my ability to earn a living, and I may sue them," he said in a telephone interview from his home in northern California.


"I don't cave in," Savage said.


The Coalition Against Hate Radio consists of the Ecumenical Ministries of Oregon, the Interfaith Councils of Greater Seattle and Greater Portland, the Islamic Societies of Southwest Washington and Portland, the Multnomah County Democratic Party, the Muslim Educational Trust, Oregon Friends of the Middle East, Jews for Global Justice, the Catholic Archdiocese of Portland, Centro Cultural and several other churches and groups.


Wajdi Said, executive director of the Muslim Educational Trust, said the coalition would hold Savage legally responsible if any views broadcast on his show incited listeners to acts of violence.


Savage called his critics "radical leftists" who themselves are filled with hate.


"They have every right to hate what I say. That's what talk radio is all about: disagreement," Savage said. "That's what the Bill of Rights is all about: disagreement."


Savage, who has worked as an ice cream factory worker, busboy, lifeguard, writer and scientist, is the most popular radio talk show host in the San Francisco Bay Area, and is heard on more than 350 radio stations across the nation. He would not say how old he is.


His Web site, http://www.paulreveresociety.com, says he holds master's degrees in medical botany and medical anthropology and earned his Ph.D. from the University of California at Berkeley in epidemiology and nutrition science. He has written 18 books, including The Savage Nation and Herbs That Heal.


In Portland, Savage's show is featured on KXL during afternoon drive time. KXL broadcasts news, talk, weather and traffic 24 hours a day to an audience from northern Oregon to southern Washington.


Tim McNamara, the station's general manager, said he had received seven letters of complaint about Savage's show 5 of which were identically worded, along with hundreds of letters of support. "I have absolutely zero advertiser resistance," he said.


McNamara said he offered Savage's critics air time but they declined.


In addition to KXL, Paul Allen also owns the Seattle Seahawks, the Rose Garden in Portland and Portland's hometown team, the Portland Trail Blazers.


"That is one of the main reasons for going after KXL," said Mona Goode, a spokeswoman for the coalition.


She contended that by broadcasting Savage's show, the message KXL sends to minorities and immigrants, "in particular to all people of Middle Eastern ancestry and to Muslims, is that you are not wanted in this country, that you have no value and that you should not expect any respect here."


Members of the coalition said they will ask corporate advertisers to withhold their support from KXL until the station drops Savage.


"We're going to engage with the corporations that advertise on the radio station and appeal to their sense of corporate responsibility," Goode said.


"In a sense, Michael Savage has done us a favor. He's kind of united the coalition in and of himself," she said.


Michael Nank, a spokesman for Vulcan Inc., Allen's Seattle-based holding company, said Tuesday that Savage's views are his alone, and do not represent the station or its corporate owners.


Other than that, he said, "KXL is the broadcaster, and any day-to-day decisions are addressed by the station there."

by Put the Pressure on Allen
Thursday Apr 25th, 2002 11:59 AM
Well, if Paul Allen wanted Savage off the air, believe me, he would be off the air.

I kind of think this could backfire. Savage is indeed a racist scumbag, but he does more good for the left than not. A majority of people probably listen to Savage only because they enjoy the incredulous reaction they feel upon hearing his ignorant rants.

Let him rant and rave. To try to shut him up will only inflame his supporters.

It wouldn't be a bad idea to direct the campaign against the advertisers of his show, however, and to bring THEM to light, bring THEM to acccountability. They, after all, are supporting Savage, as well as Allen.
by jeanne
Thursday Apr 25th, 2002 1:31 PM
Oh, this is true freedom.

If you don't like what they say, find a way to shut them up.

Classic Marxism.
by Propaganda
Thursday Apr 25th, 2002 6:06 PM
The United States people need to learn to hate. This liberals from this Oregon ministry should immediately be arrested and thrown into a concentration camp for a few years.
by New York Yank
Thursday Apr 25th, 2002 6:11 PM
The U.S. people need to learn to hate. These liberals who complain should be arrested and thrown into a concentration camp for a few years.
by Ray
Thursday Apr 25th, 2002 6:48 PM
In reading the anti-Savage comments I can tell as a 2 year listener to the Savage Nation that these people have not listened to his program. He has had the leader of the American Muslim community talk on his show at least twice that I have heard, and they have coherent conversations about the American Muslim leadership's positions about September 11th, Israel/Palestine etc.
Also, he is the son of an immigrant, and respects immigrants greatly when they come to the United States to contribute to our economy and society.
Again, please, before you demonize Michael, tune in to the show and listen for a week to see where he's really coming from. He's a patriot, is in favor of legal immigration, and wants the best for those who have immigrated here; namely that they learn the english language to enable them to succeed in their work here in the USA where English is common language. Teaching children in their native tounge will hold them back from success.
In listening you'll find that he's all about common sense, and you may not agree with even 80% of what he says, but he articulates his positions and is willing to reason with people who call the show.
Take a look/listen, and then judge for yourself.
Ray
by aaron
Thursday Apr 25th, 2002 8:26 PM
Far-rightists like Savage love having feckless liberals call for his show to be censored. It makes them feel important and will only make his show more popular.

There is no doubt that Savage is a bigot. What else do you make of someone who calls non-whites from outside this country "mud people"? He tolerates and encourages all forms of chauvinism on the part of his thick-as-mud fans who call in. The other day some caller referred to Japs and Towel-Heads and nary a word of protest from Savage. Often however I sense that he is embarressed by the low-caliber intellects of his talk-mates but always bails them out with some pointless aside and then launches into yet another attack on liberals. To the above poster who says that he is open to discussion with those who disagree, I would say that only if the nature of the disagreement is benign or articulated poorly. When someone calls in with an intelligent criticism and is well-composed Savage shuts them up every time.

by dave
Thursday Apr 25th, 2002 11:36 PM
Those that Hate Savage are Haters. It's that simple. All Americans have the freedom of speech. Savage does not have to give airtime to anyone. It's his show (350 radio stations!!!!) Savage only tells what he believes is the truth. He has conviction, faith and is a man of character. He love America, and what it stands for. His has the guts to speak his mind and he never backs down. Good for him. I have a hard time listening to people who can't defend thier opinions. Thank God our country had men and woman with character like Savage's during the second world war. If not, we'd all be speaking another language and we wouldn't all be driving SUV'S. I'm proud to have the Freedom of speech and so is everyone who has entered a comment here. Right? Aren't you glad the police aren't going to come to your house and bust you for what we have said here??????? Go SAVAGE, And anyone else who opposes him. I hope you get on (350) stations so i can hear your opinions about America!
Thanks newsmax.com for breaking this story!
by Acheron
Friday Apr 26th, 2002 8:14 AM
The left always talk about how we must be tolerent of others views. Guess that only applies when they agree with the views. Michael Savage tells the truth about the them and they hate it. The left never tell the truth. Want to hear the truth? Listen to people like Michael Savage.
by PHR
(patrickrogers2 [at] yahoo.com) Friday Apr 26th, 2002 1:48 PM
Liberalism is not an ideology. It's a mental disorder. Liberals will kill this wonderful nation.
by dfgfdg
Friday Apr 26th, 2002 2:00 PM
1) They're boring.

2) They're intellectually inferior to dog ball sweat.

3) Both of the above.

Jim Hightower had his own syndicated radio broadcast. He lost his audience because he wasn't entertaining. If anyone feeds you this "They kicked them the air off because he didn't walk in lock step like a corporate lackey" BULLSHIT, accept it AND THEM for what they are; worthless.
by Eli Forenberg
Friday Apr 26th, 2002 2:21 PM
As a Jew, I would think (if following the media's idea of tolerance) that Michael Savage would be a racist. However, if you listen to his show for the full 3 hours...and for 1 week...you will know that he is not a hatemonger. Listen for 21 hours, and you will understand him.

If you wish, read the transcripts of the interviews with him and William Donahue (Catholic Church); Shaykh Kabbani (Muslim). Racist? Surely you jest.

Now, as for the protesters...they have the right to assemble and protest. HOWEVER, if they are hell-bent on taking away my right to listen to someone who doesn't agree with them...then I hope they fail.

by anon
Friday Apr 26th, 2002 2:31 PM
Here's an article someone posted that's allegedly by Michael Savage:
http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/03/118945.php

On the surface, it has a reasonable tone, but it is preposterous.
by Michelle
Friday Apr 26th, 2002 2:44 PM
I think that everyone is for free speach unless they don't like what they hear. If you don't want to hear him...turn him off. Michael Savage is my hero and if you listen to him he will be yours too! Savage stands for all that is RIGHT! Thank God for him!
by The Unsilent Majority
Friday Apr 26th, 2002 4:17 PM
I listen to Mr Savage's program almost daily. I have read the complaints about his show on several sites and I found a common thread among all of them: The complainers aren't listening to what Mr Savage says.

He didn't call Middle Easterners "Mud People". He said that in a news broadcast a few of the Taliban Al Quaida members looked like they were made of mud. "Mud People"? Listen to what he says!

I work with a fellow who just moved here from the Bay Area. He is a Liberal and has strong political views. In talking with him about issues such as welfare, foreign policy and religious freedom I discovered something very encouraging. Liberals really want to be conservative but only if their personal quality of life is effected. This means that if it gets bad enough in our country, they will sober up and finally put it all together in their minds. This is a good start to having our country back and should relieve many conservatives of the concern that Mr Savage creates for our country's well-being.
by Bob Bugiada
(rjbugiada [at] pacbell.net) Friday Apr 26th, 2002 4:41 PM
Michael Savage is excellent! His bluntness is like a cold slap in the face, but it's just what we need in this age of political correctness.
by x
Friday Apr 26th, 2002 4:41 PM
I wonder if the same author would call the normal KPFA and NPR crap "hate radio".
by anony
Friday Apr 26th, 2002 5:38 PM
Good to see that liberals fight bad ideas with censorship.
by bri
Friday Apr 26th, 2002 6:18 PM
so you would classify as liberals the people who wouldn't permit signs at Berkeley palestine protests that call Ariel Sharon a nazi? They actually decided not to allow Students for Justice in Palestine to table on Sproul any more. I guess that was a bunch of liberals too. My coworker supported execution of the students who were arrested in the nonviolent sit-in. Another 'liberal', I suppose? Have you heard of the Free Speech movement. It was started when the 'liberal' UC Berkeley administration of the early 60s which had 'issues' with students tabling and passing out flyers against racism and war on Sproul banned the tables, and they even arrested Jack Weinberg for insisting on his free speech, and subsequently the police car was surrounded by hundreds of students and Mario Savio gave his famous speech. I am really looking forward to the moment when the 'liberal' and 'politically correct' UC police are sent to remove the SJP table and we can reenact.
by david
Wednesday May 15th, 2002 7:54 AM
Not many people want to Listen to Chomsky, Zinn or Loewen. And the ones I have met, All learned about these characters in some liberal college and everyone of them smokes pot. But even if they were on the radio it would be a joke. People wouldn't believe the trash that comes out of thier minds. I hope to hear Chompme on the air with a call in session one day. The poor guy would probably cry after the show because people would be offering him plane tickets to leave the area!



by listner
Wednesday May 15th, 2002 10:46 AM
but we'll never get to find out for ourselves as long as the corporate media keep these voices silenced.

Speaking of silencing voices, have you ever noticed how callers to hate radio who don't agree with host get weeded out by the screeners? If the get through, the get cut off by the host. Why is that?
by JanNet
Wednesday May 15th, 2002 6:19 PM
Nice to learn that free speech was invented in America by Berkley. I guess they backdated the bill of rights.

Boy, talk about thinking the world revolves around you!
by Thomas Leavitt
(info [at] savagestupidity.com) Saturday Jun 22nd, 2002 12:45 AM
To: Sponsors of "The Savage Nation"

We, the undersigned, hereby affirm our disgust and dismay at the commercial support given Michael Savage by corporate America, and pledge to boycott any and all companies who purchase advertising on "The Savage Nation" (a complete list of which is available via the SavageStupidity.Com web site on the "Boycott" page).

We support the Oregon Coalition Against Hate Radio and other organizations actively promoting a boycott of Savage Nation advertisers.

"The content is an unbroken stream of hate and chauvinism directed against women, people of color, liberals, immigrants and in particular people of Middle Eastern heritage and people of the Muslim faith. We condemn this message of hate..." said Tom Nelson, spokesman for the Coalition Against Hate Radio (press release will full details on campaign available at http://www.ofme.net/PressRelease.html).

"The message that [radio stations broadcasting The Savage Nation are] sending to communities of color, immigrants, and in particular to all people of Middle Eastern ancestry and to Muslims, is that you are not wanted in this country, that you have no value and that you should not expect any respect here," said spokeswoman Mona Goode of the Oregon Friends of the Middle East. "That is a message that we must actively and vocally oppose."

The dominance of "hate radio" is not a market-driven phenomenon, but a product of conscious decisions made by conservative media-conglomerates to silence alternative voices. This is not a sustainable situation for democracy.

We call upon the FCC to restore the "Fairness Doctrine", the federal requirement (abandoned in the Reagan administration) that broadcast stations leasing the public airwaves had to allow a certain amount of time for opposing views on political issues.

We call upon radio stations to voluntarily implement the "Fairness Doctrine" in their own programming, and restore balanced discourse to the airwaves by featuring local and syndicated "liberal" talk show hosts on a regular basis.

For more information on our campaign, visit SavageStupidity.Com or email us at "info [at] savagestupidity.com" with your comments and feedback.


Sincerely,

To sign this petition, go to http://www.petitiononline.com/savagebc/petition.html
by Ronnie Ray-Gun
Saturday Jun 22nd, 2002 10:26 AM
Mike Savage is really just another Howard Stern, get rid of him and another well pop up in its place.
by me
Saturday Jun 22nd, 2002 10:33 AM
Howard Stern is better looking.
by Rogus
Monday Jun 24th, 2002 12:59 PM
If you don’t like what Savage is saying simply change the channel. He is but one voice of many on the airwaves. If you really want to make an impact, affect his arbatron ratings and don’t listen to him. Corporate sponsors base their commercials dollars off of arbatron ratings and if they go down, so will Savage’s corporate sponsorship.

The more you bitch and moan about Savage, the more attention you bring him, and the higher his arbatron ratings becomes as people tune in to find out what all the hubbub is all about. So in a sense, all this protesting and petitioning is self defeating and you are doing nothing but attracting more listeners to Michael Savage. So to all you Anti-Savage Folks out there, do what many people do when they don’t like something they hear on the radio station, they change the channel.
to come onto this forum and debate the likes of me.

So let's take a poll. How many people think it's because he's a coward, and how many people think it's because he's smart enough to avoid being made a fool of in public?
by sldfwh
Monday Jun 24th, 2002 4:35 PM
>Noam would make a fool of you in two minutes flat.

Believe what you will. It's irrelevant to me what you think..

>Of me, he would not. I'd love to debate Noam.

The blind leading the stupid. That might be interesting.....for a second or two.
by Rogus
Monday Jun 24th, 2002 4:44 PM
It has to be one of two things, either they are too busy to debate on this forum or it could be they don't care what the little people here have to say.

I highly doubt it has anything to do with them not having the courage or smart enough not to debate here because they might be made a fool of.

In fact, one was the last time SFIMC had a "name" person with large media exposure posting here and debating the issue???

Let me guess, soon I will be seeing posts from "Rush Limbaugh", "Janet Reno", "Bill Clinton", "Larry King", and "Martha Stewart" on here soon.
by jclksal
Monday Jun 24th, 2002 4:51 PM
>My style is the greatest. Meet with the best, lose like the rest.

Whatever.
by Confucius
Tuesday Jun 25th, 2002 6:51 AM
>My style is the greatest. Meet with the best, lose like the rest. - nessie

Confucius say: "He who toots his own horn plays alone."
by kldfjlks
Tuesday Jun 25th, 2002 8:49 AM
Why would I want to waste my time? In a battle of wits you're completely unarmed.
by listener
Tuesday Jun 25th, 2002 10:33 AM
Let's look at the facts here Nessie. Michael Savage has a huge audience of listeners, you do not. So you say you could beat him in any debate? I say who the fuck cares because no one wants to listen to the majority of your crazy leftist babble. If you are so good and so interesting, why don't you have your own POPULAR talk show? Well, it is not because of a conspiracy against you. You are entitled to your opinions, no matter how far out the rest of us think they are. However, that does not mean that we want to listen to your anti-American BS. Savage has a talk show because he has a large audience that wants to listen to him and his views.

Further, what gives anyone the right to shut him down? He is entitled to the same freedom of speech as you are. You whiny fucks cry about the slightest infraction against your civil liberties or your freedom of speech. Yet you would violate his civil liberties and take away his freedom of speech. Sounds like you are a bunch of hipocrites to me.
by sdjlkj
Tuesday Jun 25th, 2002 11:17 AM
Your stated objective is to destroy capitalism. If you were as smart as you claim, you not only would have devised a plan by which to cause the fall, you would have already completed the task. Capitalism remains.

You say that it may not happen in your lifetime. If you were as smart as you claim, you would have made it happen already. If you were as smart as you claim, nothing could have stopped you.

IF... you were as smart as you claim.

But, you're not.

by Rogus
Tuesday Jun 25th, 2002 11:19 AM
I try to live my life by a simple saying “Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is” and I strongly believe others should live their life by this credo too.

Nessie, if your debate skills are as exceptional as you claim. Then I say you put them to use and call the Michael Savage Show. Post the transcripts of your conversation with Michael Savage and let the people here decide who won the debate.

This argument over who’s the better debater is all hypothetical and doesn’t really prove either side. It's like debating which is better vanilla or chocolate? The simple solution, call the show and prove it. Then we can pick apart the details of the conversation and claim who is the better debater.
by lksdjf
Tuesday Jun 25th, 2002 2:48 PM
>But it wont happen overnight.

If you were smart enough, you could do it overnight. If I had the same objective as you, I could have done it overnight. No sweat.

>I never once claimed I was smart enough to make it happen in my lifetime.

If I had the same objective as you, I could have done it overnight. No sweat.

>The plan was already devised by others, long vefore I was born. It is in action, and it is succeeding, little by little.

The same could have been said by someone living in the Roman Empire who disapproved of what they did. Eventually every empire crumbles. The USA will do the same. The difference being you aren't smart enough to make it happen in your lifetime. If I wanted to, I could do it overnight. No sweat.



by asljfs
Tuesday Jun 25th, 2002 3:11 PM
I don't want to.
by Ronnie Ray-Gun
Tuesday Jun 25th, 2002 5:19 PM
Capitalism is evoluton, survival of the fittest. Capitilism is as old as cilization itself. Ancient coins can be found dating back to the bronze age.The Phoenicians(the ancesters of the palastinians) and the Greeks with thier trade routes started western capitalism.
Communism was thought up during the 1800's and lived and died(taking millions of lives in the prosess) in the 20th century. Hey Nessie, what is actully what you want to replace capiltalism with? How whould it work?
by aaron
Tuesday Jun 25th, 2002 5:58 PM
your definition of capitalism is ahistorical nonsense. according to it, an economy based on chattel-slavery would be capitalist because currencies are used as a medium of exchange. feudalism, likewise, would morph into capitalism according to your definition.

capitalism is a mode of production based upon wage-labor. A capitalist is someone who employs labor in pursuit of profit.
by aaron
Tuesday Jun 25th, 2002 9:03 PM
I had to get off and absent-mindedly sent the above message.
My point was to say that capitalism is a relatively new historical phenomenon. Capitalism isn't simply avarice -- as RR implies -- although avarice is certainly fundamental to it. Capitalism is a mode of production based on wage-labor, a system in which labor is a commodity. Whereas under chattel-slavery the slave-master owns the slave, under capitalism the capitalist doesn't own the worker, but instead, buys his/her labor power. While there have been instances in which chattel-slaves have been used in industrial production, generally chattel-slavery is utilized in labor-intensive agricultural production. From the perspective of the capitalist it is more efficient (read cheaper) to buy labor power as opposed to buying the whole person, which necessitates, among other things, procuring food and accomodations -- however meagre. The beginnings of capitalism can be traced to the industrial revolution and enclosures in Europe.

RR asked Nessie to explain what he proposes as an alternative. A fair question. The point, as I see it, isn't to put forth a blue-print but instead to attempt to illustrate the possibilites of a liberated, non/post capitalist world. The following link, I think broaches this question intelligently.

http://www.bopsecrets.org/PS/joyrev4.htm#Utopians%20fail%20to%20envision%20postrevolutionary%20diversity
by Gadalia Abraham
Monday Aug 5th, 2002 5:03 PM
"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." If what you say is so about his background then he has betrayed his antecedents. I have seen his website...
"Culture, Language, Borders!" Sounds a bit like "Ein Riech, Ein Volk, Ein Fuher," to me. Shut the s.o.b. down and let him earn a living doing a real job.
by Ronnie Ray-Gun
Tuesday Aug 6th, 2002 7:04 PM
Hey Aaron,I just read that confusing dogma of communist propaganda doctrane.It never worked.It goes agaisnt human nature.You cannot force people to get along.Not everone wants to share.
Capitalism is evolution.You cannot stop it.Survival of the fittist in the market place creates better things out of compatition.Take computers,look at the AppleIIE compared to the latest IMac,would you want to countiue to use AplleIIE's or an old 286 instead of a pentium4?
Take the mammals,after the astriod hit earth 65mya they took over the areas that the dinosours left off.Before they were just rats,but after they became dogs,whales and people.That is the way nature works.Animals become extict and new ones take thier place.VHS over beta,Mammals over Dinos.
In communist countries,everything was very backward compared to the capitalist ones.Is anyone old enough to remember West and East Germany?If communist theory works so well how come West germans did not risk thier lives to escape the brouisgie
oppresion and live in the glory of prolatarate paradise?
Utopias are a fanatsy,they are nightmares when inatacted via
Hitler,Stalin,Pol Pot,Mao,and Martha Stewart.
by Mr T
Wednesday Aug 7th, 2002 11:27 AM
It is always great when people attempt to make analogies when those analogies do not work and were effectively tossed out almost a centruy ago. Ronnie, you are talking about how capitalism works in a Darwinian way, and is effectively progressive in that it promotes the advances of civilisation. This is of course completely false. Social Darwinism was a theory proposed by Herbert Spencer and used as justification by people like John D. Rockefeller. Standard Oil was the best because it was the best, it weeded out the inferrior competition was the justification given. This was of course false. It stifled competion, effectively making competition impossible and created what we now call a monopoly. Monopolies work against inovation in that they have no reason to inovate, they have nothing to compete agaisnt. A complete laissez faire economy will fail just like it has in the past. I am not saying this to say that communism will work better, as it has shown to be just as hard on its people as laissez faire was in the 19th century. A medium between the two is needed.
by Takea crap
Wednesday Aug 7th, 2002 1:05 PM
You can also look to the nightmarish living conditions in capitalist countries, right wing countries like El Salvador, Guatemala, and the others. 90% poverty, etc. Does that make capitalism bad? West Germany was a socialist democracy, as is Germany today. Why are you using it as an example, when you are against socialism in any form, Ronnie?

I doubt we've ever experience theoretical capitalism here, anymore than other countries experienced theoretical communism. Here, the Unseen Hand of the Market is a big middle finger. It's a myth for us peons. Any standard of living increase in the U.S has been the result of people raising hell and demanding better conditions. It never trickles down.
by Takea crap
Wednesday Aug 7th, 2002 1:46 PM
Touche' Nessie. Our oppression of the Third World has built up so much negative karma, that I think the US may just sink into the ocean one day. Crimes agains humanity.

However, I am reading a book about 1877, and the hell raising by the workers at that time. Yes, we plunder the third world, but if workers hadn't stood up time and again, I, personally, would be living in third world conditions. That's my point.
by Takea crap.
Wednesday Aug 7th, 2002 2:07 PM
This roll back needs to be rolled back, big time. Globally. The US union movement sucks, for the most part. I support the IWW belief of One Big Union, not the fragmented trade unions.
by Takea crap
Wednesday Aug 7th, 2002 2:35 PM
Why has the union movement in general always ended up castrated here in the USA? I'm not sure. It's kinda hard to take on big biz and the US guv at the same time. But is that an excuse? The Wobblies were rubbed out be (the Democrat) WIlson's administration and never recovered. There is a history of labor being crushed, here. Remember union guys beating up war protesters during Vietnam? What the fuck. Go to the IWW website and ask them, I guess.
by Ronnie Ray-Gun
Thursday Aug 8th, 2002 6:43 PM
This is the way it works.It cannot be stoped.Read some of the books by Steaven Jay Gould to fully understand.I was replying to what Aaron showed as an alternative to capitalism.The world has gotten to big to stop it now.Too many poeple,too many markets.
Oh,being Union can have its ups and downs.You get some good job security but having to strike kinda sucks.Unions have brought a better standred of living to the working class but have also ruined several industrys(like US Steel).
by ex-Pittsburgher
Thursday Aug 8th, 2002 7:26 PM
What ruined US steel was that the unpatriotic owners moved offshore to take advantage of cheap labor. Capital knows no borders.
by aaron
Friday Aug 9th, 2002 1:07 AM
It's your perogative, Ronnie, if you want to dismiss without substantively addressing the link I posted a month or so ago.

I certainly don't think it's the last word, but do feel it thoughtfully addresses some pivotal questions.

Honestly, I doubt you spent more than five minutes looking it over.

In any event, your response is typical of the canned right-wing rejoinders that I've come to expect from conservatives on indymedia. Small-spirited, predictable, pat, uninspired, complacent -- all that.

It's funny that you martial Stephen Jay Gould to support your tired creed.

Gould was an evolutionary biologist, and by any definition, a radical. He decimated the Bell Curve formulation put forward by Murray, who was never to be heard from again. While I don't know if he called himself a socialist, he certainly was sympathetic to anti-capitalist politics and dialectical modes of inquiry.
And I'm sure he'd bristle at the notion of being invoked to support mediocre thinking by a pin-head like you, Ronnie.
by Ronnie Ray-Gun
Sunday Aug 11th, 2002 7:43 AM
I was just making an anology on how the market works.The anti-capitalist arguement runs into sangs becouse of the nature on which the struggle for competition in the market place compares to evolutionary competition of species.
Thus any kind of communist system is due to fail.
by X
Sunday Aug 11th, 2002 2:14 PM
The Natural Law fallacy / Appeal to Nature

The Appeal to Nature is a common fallacy in political arguments. One version consists of drawing an analogy between a particular conclusion, and some aspect of the natural world -- and then stating that the conclusion is inevitable, because the natural world is similar:

"The natural world is characterized by competition; animals struggle against each other for ownership of limited natural resources. Capitalism, the competitive struggle for ownership of capital, is simply an inevitable part of human nature. It's how the natural world works."

Another form of appeal to nature is to argue that because human beings are products of the natural world, we must mimic behavior seen in the natural world, and that to do otherwise is 'unnatural':

"Of course homosexuality is unnatural. When's the last time you saw two animals of the same sex mating?"

Robert Anton Wilson deals with this form of fallacy at length in his book "Natural Law". A recent example of "Appeal to Nature" taken to extremes is The Unabomber Manifesto.

a good link on arguments which are fallacy is at http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html. You will be VERY hard pressed to find a conservative argument which does not fall into the realm of fallacy. This is because at its core the conservative position is only rarely logically defensible, so they must rely on alternative tactics (fallacies, appealing to emotion, name calling, generalizations etc etc)
by commie
Sunday Aug 11th, 2002 2:18 PM
"The anti-capitalist arguement runs into sangs becouse of the nature on which the struggle for competition in the market place compares to evolutionary competition of species.
Thus any kind of communist system is due to fail."

gee. I wonder why ants are the most succesful species on the planet, then.
by X2
Monday Aug 12th, 2002 10:28 PM
yeah, I know it does. Its irrelevant though .. it was posted as an example of a fallacy. Please re-read it.
by Mike
(MikeKozlowski [at] ev1.net) Thursday Aug 29th, 2002 9:26 AM
THe USA needs more people like Michael Savage. He is a true American. I have listened to him for nearly a year and have never heard a bigoted word ever escape his mouth. See, the reason people are so upset with Mr. Savage is that he speaks the truth. Many people are too preoccupied with other things and they loose sight of what makes this the greatest country in the world. FREEDOM!!!
You wrote about Mr. Savage and his "Muslim Bashing." Tell me.....How many blonde haired, blue eyed hi-jackers were there on 9-11?
by aaron
Thursday Aug 29th, 2002 9:52 AM
Savage used to routinely refer to people from the Third World as "mud people" -- a classic fascist formulation. Calling illegal immigrants "things" as he did the other day also seems pretty racist. Over and over again Savage plays this game.

by John Doe
(worldviewconflct [at] aol.com) Thursday Sep 12th, 2002 7:32 PM

I am familiar with some of the "groups" that are supposedly united in thier objections to talk radio host Micheal Savage. They are radical left wing organizations masquerading as "Inter-faith" this and "Ecunemical" that. Do not be fooled by these obstensibly religious titles. These "groups" are well-connected with homosexual and other activist organizations who routinely engage in anti-Conservative causes. Because of thier commonly held political views which border on sucide and insanity they are incapable of even rationally discussing topics like "racism" or "hate" which, ironically best describe they themselves.

Eric B.
by John Doe
(worldviewconflct [at] aol.com) Thursday Sep 12th, 2002 7:33 PM

I am familiar with some of the "groups" that are supposedly united in thier objections to talk radio host Micheal Savage. They are radical left wing organizations masquerading as "Inter-faith" this and "Ecunemical" that. Do not be fooled by these obstensibly religious titles. These "groups" are well-connected with homosexual and other activist organizations who routinely engage in anti-Conservative causes. Because of thier commonly held political views which border on sucide and insanity they are incapable of even rationally discussing topics like "racism" or "hate" which, ironically best describe they themselves.

Eric B.
by jebediah
Friday Sep 13th, 2002 12:37 AM
you know, if you don't talk to the troll he goes insane and starts saying the most outrageous things. Its pretty funny when he gets worked up. Fucking hilarious actually.
There's one thread that he posted himself where hardly anyone talks to him for a while and he just goes berserk.

http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/09/147515_comment.php#148017
by aaron
Friday Sep 13th, 2002 12:59 AM
you're a pointless toad.
by truthteller
Friday Sep 13th, 2002 1:00 AM
You don't think civil war is coming? You think I just went off the deep end? Did I invent the phrase Balkanization of America"?

You're a fool. But it's understandable. You are the one who wants to take away my guns, to force perversion on me, keep me from flying my flag, take away my right to religion yet fight for Islamic terrorists-and have I mentioned you're a traitor? You side with the enemy which makes YOU the enemy.

You slimebags have pushed and pushed and pushed and there are millions who are tired of it. No, I'm not berserk. You are mentally ill for not recognizing what's in the wind.
by truthteller
Friday Sep 13th, 2002 8:49 AM
Isn't that right, Tom??

by truthteller
Friday Sep 13th, 2002 9:23 AM
When you figure it out, I'll be right here waiting for you.
by just wondering
Friday Sep 13th, 2002 9:31 AM
Or are you too scared of what we might do to you?
by ooooooooo!
Friday Sep 13th, 2002 2:20 PM
like, I'm soooo scared. The big, bad anarchohomopussachistic collective is coming to get me mommy!

They're coming to take me away, haha.
They're coming to take me away, heehee.
To the funny farm, where life is sweet and everything
is evil all the time and the big bad capitalists can't get me there because their fortress on Haight street in the Mission district is impenetrable and Rupunzel will have to let down her hair for snow white to kiss the sleeping princess and turn her into a frog.

wooooooooooo hoooooooo.
Some species even use chemical weapons on their enemies..
by this thing here
Saturday Sep 14th, 2002 1:06 AM
nessie
by popeye • Friday September 13, 2002 at 02:10 PM

as long as he doesn't go on the main and most popular part of the site (i.e. the chat section) who cares? If he's here we have a chance of tracking him down, on the chat he'd be totally anonymous and untrackable. We'd never be able to track him. He could do some real damage there, but here he is just a nuisance.


That's obviously a lie. Any second grader knows better.

by this thing here
Saturday Sep 14th, 2002 7:30 AM
you want to keep using my handle, little boy? can't think of your own name, so you gotta use someone else's? is that it. that's real class. that's some "real" smarts.

i pushed your buttons didn't i. and since you couldn't tackle my arguments, all you could think to do was fuck around with my name. a loser doing what losers do best. fuck off.
by Michael Peterson
(mtp1032 [at] attbi.com) Saturday Sep 14th, 2002 3:24 PM
Nessie wrote:
>Listen to Chomsky. Listen to Zinn. Listen to
>Loewen. Ooops. You can't. They're not on 320
>corporate stations. Why's that? Three guesses.

Guess #1: Chomsky, Zinn, Loewen are irrelevant.

Guess#2: Chomsky, Zinn, Loewen have nothing interesting to say (except to themselves).

Guess #3: Advertizers won't support Chomsky, Zinn, Loewen because so few people are interested in what they have to say.

Did I get it, Nessie?

Michael
by Ronnie Ray-Gun
Saturday Sep 14th, 2002 3:54 PM
An anology of using ants could explain capitalism quite well.Ant use and exploit their surundings to fit thier survivel.Some ants raise aphids like cattle for food while others just raid other ants.Ants evolvoled the same way other species have by natural selection and compatition of species.
Its the same way the market place works.In fact it is impossable to ban capitalism becouse it shows up no matter how hard it is to sqush it. China tried but they went into too much debt and shifted towards joining the market place instead.Same thing with the soviets.
I'd like to see whats happens when you ban capitalism.Do you put millions out of work to work on collective farms?How do you force people to stop traiding?You claim capitalism starves people(instead of the real blaime which are dictatorships that leech of thier own people)wait till you see what happans when you shut down all the corperations!Did you know that there was a famine after the Russian revolution?Gee I wonder why since the goverment owns everthing and personal liberties have been stripped.
Hey,its a free country and when you yell anti-capitalist what not you just forc the public to take you less seriuosly.
by this thing here
Monday Sep 16th, 2002 7:47 AM
... and that is what capitalism wants its labor source to be. devoted insects. unquestioning, hard working, sacrificial, devoted insects.

it's amazing to me how many fail to realize that they, their lives, and needs and wants and desires and dreams, are more important than what capitalism, as a system, wants. when did it start, this mindset that people are less important than the overall production system? or are less important than always falling prices and always increasing production. because this sacrificing for the health of the system is exactly the mindset that says humans are expendable insects.

i agree that capitalism could never really be done away with. especially on a small, personal, local scale. especially the notion of working hard (at a job one chose for oneself...) and being rewarded for your work and your talent, and taking that reward and choosing to do with it as you may. that's hard to just do away with. and it been around for many, many centuries. millenia.

capitalism wasn't something america invented from scratch 400 years ago. just because we rule it in today's world doesn't mean we own its history too. that's why i have a problem with those who think a criticism of capitalism is a personal attack on america. bullshit. it isn't. capitalism is a system. it's boundaries go beyond any and all borders. it cares not where it's being practiced. wave any flag you want in its face and it won't even blink. and it's history goes back probably as far as man lived together in societies.

so if this being rewarded for hard work and talent and integrity, and taking that reward and doing anything you want with it, growing a business or buying some consumer item, if this lies closest to the nature of man, well that's all well and good. but the keywords are "nature of man". and last time i checked, "man" wasn't a sweet angel of goodness and beauty and light, o.k.?

he, man, likes to lie. man likes to exploit. he likes to work the rules so he alone benefits. man likes to cover his ass when he gets found out. man likes to make money and be rewarded without working for it. if man can destroy his competition (by playing dirty, by killing, by destroying reputations, by working the rules, by moving the goal posts...) rather than Actually Competing with his competition, he will. man likes to be greedy and count his stash of money and show it off. man likes to say fuck the rules, fuck honesty, fuck being decent, i wanna be a wealthy son of bitch, so fuck you all. this is also the nature of man.

so the problem is, what if not only the good in man gets systematized and institutionalized, but also the bad? the evil? what if fucking people over and exploiting them gets sucked up into the system and institutionalized as a business practice? then what? if all your competitors are lying, and their ads are full of bullshit, and you try to hold out and keep playing the game honestly, and you soon realize that playing honestly doesn't pay the bills and overhead anymore, then what? is lying to customers, fucking with their expectations, acceptable because it pays the bills?

in my opinion, that's the danger, the problem inherent. playing dirty is cool and acceptable because it pays the bills. because it pays the bills and sustains a 40% profit margin, well, it must be o.k. then, right? gotta do what you gotta do, right?

gotta lie a little bit at the job interview because you have to feed yourself and find shelter from the cold, at the very least. gotta do what you gotta do, right?

that's the thing about capitalism. it only asks one thing, and one thing only. the only moral question that capitalism demands of its "practicioners": Can You Cover The Costs? that's it. everything else is up to man himself and the system he lives under, the context and circumstances of his life, the pressures of the game. it's exactly the same damn money whether it's made dirty or straight. it buys the same things with the same purchasing power. drug money, or, "i worked 30 years in a factory" money. they're both equal in capitalism's eyes. but what about humanity's eyes. how come humanity's eyes always take second place to money's...

"integrity? morals? decency and respect? what are those compared to the bottom line? they're nothin. it's all about survival of the fittest. i'll play as dirty as i have to. if everyone else is playin' dirty, i gotta play just a little dirtier. and it's always so damn easy to cover my ass with marketing and p.r."

the only way those who love capitalism and want to see it flourish forever are going to do away with those who think there's alot of problems inherent in it, and those who want to see some major changes to it... the only way those who love capitalism are ever going to truly win this age-old argument hands down is if they can prove that man (and an economic system that reflects and mirrors man's nature) is a benevolent, good, and angelic thing of beauty and light.

good luck...
by The Left is Wrong
Monday Sep 16th, 2002 7:50 AM
THose "tolerant" leftists sure are intolerant when it comes to others voicing an opposite opinion.

Hypocrits.
by kookstalker
Monday Sep 16th, 2002 5:57 PM
Kook Appraisal Test (KAT or KAT Index)

Instructions :

In this section give yourself ONE point for every YES answer.
Give yourself additional points for multiple occurences.

Grading scale follows questions.

Have you ever :

1. Been the first to go ad-hominem in a newsgroup debate.
2. Accused someone of breaking a non-existant Federal Law.
3. Called a properly formatted cancel of a BI>20 article a *forged cancel*
4. Ranted about *Free Speech* when a moderator rejected your article.
Two points if it's spelled "FREE SPEACH".
5. Complained to someone's ISP when you got spanked in a flame war.
6. Been complained about to your ISP deservedly.
7. Flamed someone from an anonymous account.
8. Made a spelling flame.

In this section give yourself TWO points for every YES answer.
Give yourself additional points for multiple occurences.

1. Called someone a pedophile or drug pusher without proof.
2. Ranted about *Free Speech* when an anti-spammer cancelled your article.
3. Posted to a newsgroup via sock-puppet.
4. Thought about becoming a Freedom Knight.
5. Voted via sock-puppet in a Big Eight vote.
6. Defended a well known kook.
7. Been Nominated for a Kook award.
8. Called someone a *NAZI* or otherwise invoked Godwin's Law.

In this section give yourself THREE points for every YES answer.
Give yourself additional points for multiple occurences.

1. Threatened to kill or cause bodily harm to another via mail or post.
2. Stalked/harassed an opponent off-line.
3. Mail-bombed anyone.
4. Spammed a newsgroup.
5. Posted a forged or altered newsgroup article.
6. Lost an account due to abuse.
7. Won a kook award
8. Threatened a groundless lawsuit via mail or post.
9. Had a FAQ posted about your kookiness.


Scale/Rank :

1 - 5 points : Kook Wannabe. Read Grubor's posting history on dejanews.
You have much to learn. You may have just screwed up once.

6 - 10 points : Journeyman Kook. Continue to mimic the real kooks.
You could be a contender.

11 - 20 points : Kook First Class. Still a lesser light, but you HAVE arrived!

21 - 30 points : Kook cum Laude. Someone is considering writing a FAQ about
you.

31 + points : Kook Magna cum Laude. You have a FAQ.
You've won all the big awards.
by this thing here
Monday Sep 16th, 2002 10:23 PM
That wasn't a test and you know it. It was nessie's psychological evaluation. Making it public was rude, crude, and in very bad form. Fuck you very much.
by kooktester
Monday Sep 16th, 2002 11:41 PM
score 3 points for making a nessie comment!!!
you're movin' up there, kook wannabe!!!!
by sheepdog
Tuesday Sep 17th, 2002 12:02 AM
They say duct tape works wonders for your deseased ass. Go find some.
by kooktester
Tuesday Sep 17th, 2002 12:05 AM
score 1 for assuming someone else's name, tom-ryan-me whoever. Still a wannabe.
by fisherman troll
Tuesday Sep 17th, 2002 12:09 AM
Just who is scoring here? You keep biting on that hook. Aren't you supposed to be ignoring me? Isn't that part of the test?
by Sheepdog
Tuesday Sep 17th, 2002 12:50 AM
Sorry, got to rescue a sheep being buggered by a pig.
Don't worry I'll take photos for you before it's
porkchop time.
by bowling for idiots
Tuesday Sep 17th, 2002 1:39 AM
Not only do I have sheepshit in spasms, nessie has to jump in as well. G-d, this is so easy.
by yo momma
Tuesday Sep 17th, 2002 1:50 AM
.
by kooktester
Tuesday Sep 17th, 2002 2:27 AM
score another point for scatalogical obsession.
by bowling for idiots
Tuesday Sep 17th, 2002 2:33 AM
Hurry back, little chimp. Pull that lever. You know you want to. There's a troll on the indymedia board, and you simply HAVE to acknowledge it exists. You gotta have your fix, chimp. Do it. I dare you. I double-dog dare you. Pull that lever, chimp. Do your duty for traitorous slimeballs everywhere. Who knows, maybe we'll even make a bumper sticker for you. hehe
by krett
Tuesday Sep 17th, 2002 3:03 AM
Ants are a really bad example for you to choose. First of all, just because ants do it why should people? Ants also construct dwellings with spittle you know.
Secondly you claim that because ants do different things then they are capitalist. Hmmm. I guess that means that everyone in Russia during the Soviet years had exactly the same job.
Third, ants are governed by a dictator (the queen) and operate in basically a communist fashion.
Fourth, capitalism and the free market are two different things. Did they not teach you the difference between the terms in school? OK, well, free market means no government involvement in the economy (i.e no corporate welfare, no rules, no assistance for business, etc). Capitalism is merely the theory that production becomes more efficient when resources (capital) are pooled or consolidated into a small group of private hands like a corporation rather than production being on a cottage industry basis, or in the hands of the government (which is not private).
Your ant analogy is called an "appeal to nature" logical flaw, which means it is not logical to assume that just because something occurs in nature it should occur in the human world. Also ants are very communistic, so if I were to believe your argument, I would have to think communism is inevitable.
by entomologist
Tuesday Sep 17th, 2002 9:04 AM
The other ants can come and go. The queen is their prisoner.
by Sheepdog
Tuesday Sep 17th, 2002 9:55 AM
Ants, bees, termites all driven by chemical cues
they are slaves to; at least they have an excuse for their
behavior. What's the excuse for sheeple (as in the reflexive spewing of certain bleating facists whom I am entertained by baiting) not to analyze the grinder being
cranked by elite roach droppings, that we are all being fed into?
by ants
Tuesday Sep 17th, 2002 1:12 PM
and er, you know, for ants to be capitalist, they'd have to compete within the same colony ... not very ant-like I'd say ... what exactly is ant-man's point anyway?
by this thing here
Tuesday Sep 17th, 2002 3:50 PM
>kook test
by this thing here • Monday September 16, 2002 at 10:23 PM

That wasn't a test and you know it. It was nessie's psychological evaluation. Making it public was rude, crude, and in very bad form. Fuck you very much.<

the above comments were not written by this author.

oh how easy it is to just appropriate someone's nick isn't little boy?

you love to do it, don't you? can't help yourself right? think you're doing something real "cool" and "exciting" and "neat". you probably tell your friends about it right? try and score some points with them... "hey, hey, guys, i, i stole some dudes nickname and used it against him! i like being an impersonator dudes! give me five, dudes! i'm cool, huh guys!"

so let's review this again.

use your own goddamn name. and fuck you.
by  
Tuesday Sep 17th, 2002 6:49 PM
this thing here.

I could tell it wasn't you who wrote the comment. i enjoy reading thoughts on this board. don't let the troll(s) get under your skin (i know, easier said then done sometimes). "imps" [those who try to impersonate] are the lowest form of 'net life. maybe sf imc will set something up in the future, that will allow regulars to password protect a nick if they want to do so (and possibly still allow for unregistered passers-by to comment)
by popeye
Tuesday Sep 17th, 2002 6:57 PM
THAT would be a *wonderful* idea. Just an option to, if you want, register a nick so no one can use it without a password. You don't have to if you don't want to, but the option to do so. I'd love that.
by Jay
Friday Nov 15th, 2002 7:32 PM
Micheal Savage's program is raw, but calling him a racist or a bigot is certainly off the mark.
by I believe
Wednesday Nov 20th, 2002 7:43 AM
This is the best thing to hit san fracisco in years.

560 AM (4-7pm weekdays)
by Mr J
Wednesday Nov 20th, 2002 11:39 AM
If you don't like what someone is saying on the radio or TV, then don't listen. If you think your opinions are shared by many, then get yourself a show and express them.

The media will put *anything* on the air that is popular
--whether it's left or right.

The problem with the left is that they tend to adopt a "holier than thou" approach and do a lot of screaming and yelling, which turns people off. To get your message out, you first have to get people to listen. Radio and TV are primarily entertianment designed to sell products. The more people who watch or listen, the more they charge for advertising.
by hehe
Wednesday Nov 20th, 2002 12:02 PM
"then get yourself a show "

It takes resources to get a "show". The station where Savage rants only carries right wing content since it does have an ideology and cares about that more than audience (although since they have branded themselves as rightwing staying rightwing is sortof about audience since a nonrightwing show would ruin their image).

Telling protesters to "get a show" is sortof like telling hungry people to "eat cake"
by ........
Wednesday Nov 20th, 2002 1:06 PM
"The media will put *anything* on the air that is popular
--whether it's left or right."

Or whether its a bunch of crap or not. As long as its popular.
by East Bay Commuter
Wednesday Nov 20th, 2002 3:42 PM
Anyone remember about KPFA? Also KGO has several liberal radio hosts such as Bernie Ward and Ray Taliaferro on weeknights and Shann Nix on weekends. Michael Savage started as a local nighttime radio host about 10 years ago, if he is able to go National, why not one of these alternative hosts? The hosts and opportunities are out there.
by aaron
Wednesday Nov 20th, 2002 8:44 PM
Savage, unlike the other rightist wind-bags on KSFO, is actually pretty entertaining.

His soliloquies are so full of contradictions and absurdities, however, that I'm inclined to think that he doesn't really believe most of what he says. The joke is on those that do.
by Eric
Thursday Nov 21st, 2002 5:20 AM
I love how you liberals are bellyaching over everything since the elections didn’t go your way. Even old Tricky Tom Daschle whining over how mean, mean, mean da big bawd Rush Limbaugh is. You leftist are washed up. Hollow, empty nothingness can only carry a party so far. Americans are sick of you. HAHAHAHAHAHAhAHAHA!!!!!

Oh gee aaron, BTW how's the DOW doing these days? Last time we talked it was down around 7400 and you were predicting the end of the American economy.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
by aaron
Thursday Nov 21st, 2002 9:09 AM
If you want to laugh at the losers' of the last election it doesn't make sense to direct your efforts at someone WHO DIDN'T VOTE.

You have far more in common with Clinton, for instance, than I do (despite your sexualized hatred for him). Think: NAFTA, FTAA, death penalty, welfare cuts, rolling back Habeaus Corpus, bombings etc etc.

If this same election were conducted in any country other than the US I'm sure you'd disparage the results, seeing as less than 40% of the eligible electorate bothered to participate.

Mandate, hah!

As to the Dow, can you say "bear rally" Eric?

The same complex that I revealed to you a month or so ago -- massive corporate and household debt, excess capacity, and financial instability -- is every bit as much in effect as it was then. What's different doesn't help your side of the argument: the refinancing and car sales boom is demonstrably slacking and their is no renewed pick-up in capital spending in its wake.

This is confirmed by executives and managers themselves. A survey conducted by The Business Roundtable "raises serious concerns for America’s workers, companies and overall economy," according to John T. Dillon, chairman of the Business Roundtable and CEO of International Paper. More specifically, 60% of CEOs expect a reduction in their workforce with only 11% planning to add workers. The capital equipment recovery will be pushed back again. Only 19% expect to increase capital expenditures, 57% plan to maintain the level of capital investment with 24% expecting to spend less.

What a great recovery!


by Eric
Thursday Nov 21st, 2002 9:20 AM
untitled.jpg
My stocks are blistering through the roof today! As they say in the business, "We've got some green on the screen!"
by aaron
Thursday Nov 21st, 2002 9:31 AM
you're nothing but a parasite eric.
by Eric
Thursday Nov 21st, 2002 9:47 AM
is that I’m an optimistic parasite that is quite content with my host. You are pessimistic one that despises the host from which you leach. Other than that, we are peas in pod dear eggy!
by aaron
Thursday Nov 21st, 2002 7:41 PM
i appreciate your admission of parasitism, eric.

i, however, will not return the favor.

Unlike like you, i WORK for a living (and just get by).
by SAVAGE-JETT!
Thursday Nov 21st, 2002 7:56 PM
THE SAVAGE NATION TURNED ME ON!

I used to be a stoned-out, green-haired, tatooed, pierced and branded, pathetic loser.

I am now the CEO of my own company, I own a yacht, on which I drive around with 7 or 8 chicks wearing bikinis.

Fuck you pathetic LOSERS!
by .........
Thursday Nov 21st, 2002 9:30 PM
"I used to be a stoned-out, green-haired, tatooed, pierced and branded, pathetic loser.
I am now the CEO of my own company, I own a yacht, on which I drive around with 7 or 8 chicks wearing bikinis."

So you have gone from being a jerk to a jerk with a yacht. Well whoopidy-do.
by aaron
Thursday Nov 21st, 2002 9:38 PM
Savage-Jett fits the profile of your standard-fare savage fanatic listener: micro-brained, delusional, and altogether dreary.

by Eric
Friday Nov 22nd, 2002 6:13 AM
“Unlike like you, i WORK for a living (and just get by). “

Gee aaron, sound like an invitation to conversation to me. Ok, I’ll bite.

What sort of work do you do, pray tell? I’m curious to know what sort of occupation would allow someone of your obvious intellectual superiority to merely eek out an existence in the “land of plenty”? I mean, it’s obvious to me that you’re a brilliant scholar, an economist, and a Harvard MBA all rolled into one. Why is it that your superiors don’t realize the gem they have working for them and shower big fat bonus checks into your BankAmerica money market checking account, hmm?

At the risk of sounding rude aaron, I’d like to suggest you pick yourself up, dust off that resume, and browse the Sunday want ads. I just spent the last month in Burkina Faso, and let me tell you sir, you have the life of a king compared to some folks in this world. Thank your lucky stars, and since it’s getting so late, perhaps it’s time to head home from that pity-party. Ya think?
by michael Korman
(misterfact [at] yahoo.com) Friday Nov 22nd, 2002 11:57 AM
For the past 12 years, I have been tape recording hate speech, general mis-information,slander, medical mis-information, consumer product mis-information and racist statements- by talk show hate mongers and pathological liars on the radio. I am willing to play my tapes for large audiences and on the broadcast media.
by one of the editors
Friday Nov 22nd, 2002 12:14 PM
Feel free to upload your tapes to Indymedia.

For information as to how to do this, see Online Tutorials at:

http://www.indybay.org/process/resources/

by Eric
Friday Nov 22nd, 2002 12:37 PM
This is the perfect place for:

hate speech
general mis-information
slander
mis-information
racist statements
hate mongers
and pathological liars.

Type any combinations of those into your favorite search engine and indymedia is guaranteed to be near the top of the list.
by Rush Fan
Friday Nov 22nd, 2002 4:55 PM
Bernie Ward DID go National - His show did not last long. lefties are just too boring. Mario Cumo did too - Did not work - no issues. KPFA - a joke when they can keep it running - My favorite phrase is "can you hear me?" when and if they take calls.

Some other "Texas accent" sounding guy - so remarkable I don't even remember his name.
by SFLR
Friday Nov 22nd, 2002 7:50 PM
The place to be on Planet Three:

http://www.liberationradio.net/
by aaron
Saturday Nov 23rd, 2002 2:30 AM
Don't know why i'm telling you this, but I live with my wife and two and a half year old daughter. We pay $1,300/month in rent for a small apartment unit, as is typical in the East Bay. My wife is a certified special education instructor and works three days a week in a certain Bay Area public school with children under five. I move pianos two days a week, plus ten hours/week working for wheel-chair bound-men, and fifteen hours/week as a writing tutor in a certain Bay Area high school.

Together, extrapolating from our present employment situation, we make around 2 1/2 times the official poverty figure for a family of three (which is approx. $17,000). We get enough food, and our daughter is taken care of. But we got quite a bit of debt and lots of bills and money is a constant source of concern. Fuck your frat-boy "pity-party": that ain't what this is about. Just the facts.

My first two jobs -- with the disabled and as a tutor -- I attempt to help people, and I don't have an ounce of shame about it, even if the pay ain't that good.

As a piano mover, I produce value for a capitalist.

Suffice to say, my works produce value in two senses of the word.

In your line of "work", as an equities trader, you don't produce value, you appropriate it.

Voila! There's the difference between me and you.

by Eric
Saturday Nov 23rd, 2002 8:33 AM
You obviously work hard, provide for your family, and do so within the constraints of the law. You, and people like you, are a credit to our society. Thank you for sharing some of you life with me; I sincerely appreciate your honesty.

You do however, have one minor flaw. It's one I have observed that seems to be common among liberal minded thinkers. You are presumptuous.

I'm not an equities trader by profession. It's merely a hobby that I dabble in. My present work is as a technical security engineer for an international contractor. My previous career in the military suitably prepared me for what I do now. I design and implement security systems utilized to protect Americans abroad. I won't get into specifics, since much of what I do is classified, suffice it to say that I feel as if my work creates value too. Most of the Americans to whom I provide my services feel the same. Certainly I don't achieve the same feelings of righteousness that I might from assisting the handicapped, but nonetheless, there's value in what I do.

I also get to travel around the world and see first hand what it means to go without. For instance, I mentioned my recent trip to Ouagadougou, Burkina Faso. Here's a little math for your analytical mind, aaron. You said your family makes in the neighborhood of $42k per year. In Burkina, where the average household income is around $1k annually, you'd be a king!

Of course, there are cost of living differences to consider. Sustenance is cheap in Burkina since most thrive on rice with meat sauce and bread twice per day. Some people don't have clean water, but most stay hydrated in the scorching sub-Saharan climate, regardless of the bacteria and organisms. And it's probably not too hard to tolerate life there, since on the statistical average, you'd only have to deal with it for about 51 years.

There's a few cultural and political differences to consider also. There was a brave local national that worked at the Embassy who spoke freely with me. He told me that his people live in fear of their government because if you spoke out against those in power, they *would* kill you. He asked me to tell as many people in America about their lifestyle as possible. They are hoping to be saved from it, and looking towards America, both you and I, to help them.

I wasn't that shocked at what I saw and heard in my time in Burkina. I've traveled enough in my life to know that what I witnessed was not uncommon in the world. But every time I come home, what I have seen in the world does have a common and reoccurring effect on me. It makes me appreciate the freedom that I luckily was born into. It makes me thank my lucky stars and inspires ferocity in me to fight for freedom, for America, and for the world. And it makes me realize that we here in America, have things pretty damn good.

And so voila! What I do has value as well. I certainly hope you accept some it from me. We're not as different as you might have hoped aaron.

by Chris Hughes
Saturday Nov 30th, 2002 12:09 PM
According to the article above:

"Tim McNamara, [KXL]'s general manager, said he had received seven letters of complaint about Savage's show 5 of which were identically worded, along with hundreds of letters of support. "I have absolutely zero advertiser resistance," he said.


McNamara said he offered Savage's critics air time but they declined. "

I was one of the people who sent in a letter of complaint and I know for a fact that I wasn't one of only seven people who did so. I'm personally aware of ten others who sent in letters, all of which were completely unique.

Also, KXL never offered to put any of Savage's critics on the air. That's a bald lie. In addition, Tim McNamara sent several of us personal messages that accused us of attempted censorship among other things. Mr. McNamara's letters were accusatory and mean spirited. In essence he told us to go to he11.

I've chosen to stop listening to KXL.
by G.E.Hoyt
Friday Dec 6th, 2002 6:33 PM
I believe this last comment is not made by one who listens to Savage but is meant to inflame passions of those who subscribe to this site.
by The Censor has been here
Friday Dec 6th, 2002 9:00 PM
nov 21? wow what happened here?
by Hart Williams
(webmaster [at] hartwilliams.com) Monday Dec 9th, 2002 8:40 AM
in answer to our "patriot's" slur on Muslims, "how many blonde-haired blue-eyed people were hijackers on 9/11?" let's just ask the equally 'valid' question: how many Muslim fanatics were involved in the Oklahoma City bombing? Seems to me they were mostly "blonde-haired, blue-eyed 'patriots.' People whose actions were in line with the hate speech of ... Michael Savage.
by Christi
(WhiteSugar82903 [at] yahoo.com) Friday Dec 20th, 2002 11:52 AM
Can you please send me a dictionary and your own personal definition of Hate Radio. You don't hve to put this on your site because it is just for school. Thank you!
by Belinda
Thursday Dec 26th, 2002 11:22 AM
Notice how so many pro-Savage posts there ae? Since the fascist hate mongers are a minority and must rely on propaganda......my guess is that the posts are by someone affiliated with the fascist groups. They are told to bombard message boards and try to make their bizarre, contemptable, fascist, pro-corporate....anti-worker views look popular. THey have to do every trick in the book as they are not popular. The messages all have the same tone and content. I'd say we have one fascist with lots of names for himself. COuld even be a Savage affiliate. I have studied these fascist groups: think Hitler tactics. Theyhave views that are so at odds with the interests of the common guy (Pro -corporate, pro- low wages, pro- union busting , pro - pollution etc) that they have to go to extremes of lies (THE BIG LIE) and effort to try to make themselves look like they have a following. I have listened to the Savage show and My one response is fear: Can anyone be so STUPID to not see through his lies and anti-worker rhetoric? Fascists use hate to divide the working class so that the plutocrats can loot us. THey are on all the CORPORATE stations because they serve plutocrat interests.....nothing more. Again, are there really people so stupid that they can't see the Hitlerian divided and conquer tactics of the corporate plutocrats???? And yes, Savage screens his calls. His filth and ridiculous distortions could be discredited and he could be shown for what he is by many people. Never hear them on his "random" callers though do you. JUST SAY NO Fascism.
by Isolationist
Thursday Dec 26th, 2002 12:15 PM
A lot of these Anti-Savage posts and websites are ironically similar to what one might hear from the Parents Television Council. My suggestion, do what so many of us, if you don’t like what’s on, simply change the channel.
by Ffutal
Thursday Jan 2nd, 2003 3:18 PM
Democrats "are scouring the nation for a liberal answer to Rush Limbaugh and the many others on the deep bench of Republican friends," the New York Times reports. "They say their concerns have taken on a new urgency because of the rise to the top of the cable news ratings by the Fox News Channel, considered by many to have a conservative slant," adds the Times, considered by many to have a liberal slant.

One group of well-heeled Democrats "is toying with the idea of starting a liberal cable network." John Podesta, who served as Bill Clinton's chief of staff, "is discussing . . . the creation of a liberal version of the Heritage Foundation." Other Democrats and liberals are trying "to foster national liberal radio personalities" to counter the likes of Rush Limbaugh.

Well for crying out loud, guys, why not dare to dream big? American liberalism is pretty pathetic if its highest aspiration is to mimic Fox, Heritage and Rush. Here's a much more ambitious goal: Why not counter the vast right-wing conspiracy by taking over the "mainstream" media? And if it's research you want, maybe you should set your sights on America's system of higher education. If you could get liberals onto college and university faculties, they would have the opportunity to mold young minds as well as influence the political debate.

Imagine a world in which more than 80% of journalists vote Democratic, and in which left-liberal scholars vastly outnumber conservatives at colleges and universities across the country. It'd be a liberal dream, right?

Savvy readers will note that I am describing the world as it is, rather than as it might be. (And I haven't even mentioned Hollywood.) Fox, Rush and Heritage have been successful, and partly it is because they have set themselves apart from the liberal "mainstream." Similar liberal efforts are doomed to fail because they will not be able to set themselves apart.

Maybe there are people who would prefer to get their news from a network that openly acknowledges its liberal bias. But where would such a network find talent? Fox's success isn't just a matter of its alleged conservative slant; it also has an excellent lineup of anchormen, hosts and commentators. Talented right-leaning broadcast journalists--the Brit Humes, Tony Snows and David Asmans of the world--are, I'd venture, more comfortable working for Fox than in a newsroom where most colleagues view their political outlook with disdain.

In contrast, talented liberal broadcast journalists are right at home at CNN, PBS, NPR and what used to be called the three major networks. Why would they want to leave for a network that (unlike Fox) is openly partisan? Similarly, why would a talented scholar want to work for a left-wing Heritage clone rather than get a tenured position at a college somewhere?

Liberals find themselves in a tough situation. They no longer control any branch of government, and while they still predominate in journalism, entertainment and academia, these are not necessarily politically effective institutions. The news media must maintain at least an aura of objectivity. (This applies to "fair and balanced" Fox too, and its news coverage is no more biased than the New York Times' or CNN's.) Hollywood and the academy are insulated from any political accountability by great wealth and tenure, respectively; and the likes of Barbra Streisand and Noam Chomsky do more to discredit the liberal cause than all the Rush Limbaughs put together.

Is there a way forward for American liberals? Probably, but I can't imagine what it might be.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/01/politics/01DEMS.html
by Jenny Sousa
Wednesday Jan 29th, 2003 11:41 PM
'Savage' hits No. 1

Talk-show host's book debuts
as New York Times best-seller

Talk-radio maverick Michael Savage yesterday officially released his controversial new book, "The Savage Nation: Saving America from the Liberal Assault on Our Borders, Language, and Culture," with the book already on the New York Times best-seller list.



Savage's book debuts on The New York Times best-seller list at No. 33 this week. It has soared as high as No. 4 on Amazon.com's best-seller list. It is No. 1 on Amazon in the non-fiction category.

"The Savage Nation" is the story of one man's love affair with the United States.

"I would do anything to protect the freedoms I enjoy: Freedom of speech, freedom of worship, freedom of assembly and freedom from fear," says Savage.

Savage takes a refreshingly honest look at what he sees as an erosion of these freedoms taking aim not just at the government, but forces within our society and so-called "civil liberty groups," which he says continue to attack each of these freedoms, in the name of freedom. At the same time, he believes a growing international government, the United Nations, continually attempts to override these freedoms.

"The Savage Nation" is the second book released by WND Books, an imprint of Thomas Nelson Publishers. Autographed copies of the book are available exclusively at the WorldNetDaily online store, ShopNetDaily.

"I couldn't stop this book from being a best seller if I tried," says Joseph Farah, co-founder of WND Books. "The Savage Nation" has experienced tremendous advance sales to retailers – more than 100,000 copies will hit stores nationwide.

As liberals try to figure out how to reach talk-radio listeners, Savage explains that it is all in the message.

"Liberals supporting the same tax and spend policies and continuously assaulting our American culture and values is not what the American people want to hear," he says. "We must uphold our patriotism, strong families and traditional American values," writes Savage. "This book has the power to unravel years of liberal brainwashing."

Michael Savage's unparalleled passion for the "land of the free and the home of the brave" can be heard daily on more than 300 radio stations nationwide. His unmistakable style has earned him 6 million listeners a week and made him the No. 1 afternoon drive-time host on KSFO in the San Francisco Bay Area. He's also heard in other major markets including New York on WABC and in Boston on WRKO and was just added to Baltimore's WCBM-AM.
by NY TIMES BESTSELLER LIST
Wednesday Jan 29th, 2003 11:51 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



HARDCOVER NONFICTION
Top 5 at a Glance
1. THE SAVAGE NATION, by Michael Savage
2. THE RIGHT MAN, by David Frum
3. WHAT SHOULD I DO WITH MY LIFE? by Po Bronson
4. LEADERSHIP, by Rudolph W. Giuliani with Ken Kurson
5. BUSH AT WAR, by Bob Woodward

by mike
Thursday Jan 30th, 2003 1:13 AM
Wow. A right wing radio guy who sounds just like every other right wing radio guy. Colour me unimpressed.
by Ted Nugent
Friday Jan 31st, 2003 10:42 PM

Rock star applauds No. 1 New York Times best seller


The plaudits for Michael Savage's No. 1 New York Times best seller are just beginning.

The latest to endorse "The Savage Nation" is eclectic rock star Ted Nugent.

"Long before the war on terrorism reared its ugly voodoo head, America was in the throes of a horrific cultural war that, I believe, has been neutering us into irresponsible apathetic vulnerability," says Nugent, an author himself. "Political correctness is embarrassingly sweeping this great nation into a blathering puddle of drooling denial. Michael Savage has been and remains on the frontlines against this demonic jihad against our 'we the people' soul, and his book, 'The Savage Nation,' speaks accurately and courageously against the paroled punks who would gut the spirit of America with a banned rusty shiv.

"Common sense is still a self-evident truth for working-hard, playing-hard American families, and Michael nails it all throughout this great book. It should be mandatory reading for all schoolchildren in America. Then they should be quizzed every other year making them better equipped to pursue their American Dreams. Michael Savage is a qualified guide and outfitter for this journey in self-government, and I salute him and his attitude. Read this book; it's Kevlar for the soul."

Not only is "The Savage Nation" No. 1 on the New York Times best-seller list, it also remains high atop most other industry lists – from Amazon.com to the Associated Press to Publishers Weekly.

"This is a real triumph for Michael Savage, for talk radio and for the power of the Internet," said Joseph Farah, editor of WorldNetDaily and co-founder of WND Books, the first publishing imprint launched by an Internet content site.




''The Savage Nation'' is the second release of WND Books, which was created by WorldNetDaily and Thomas Nelson Publishers.

The book has been rushed into a second printing, a third and is scheduled for a fourth already – just weeks after release.

''To say that this book is a publishing sensation is an understatement,'' said Farah. ''There's no telling where this book will go. It's hitting a chord. Michael Savage is resonating across the nation.''

''The Savage Nation'' is the story of one man's love affair with the United States.

''I would do anything to protect the freedoms I enjoy: Freedom of speech, freedom of worship, freedom of assembly, and freedom from fear,'' says Savage.

Savage takes a refreshingly honest look at what he sees as an erosion of these freedoms, taking aim not just at the government but forces within our society and so-called ''civil-liberty groups,'' which he says continue to attack each of these freedoms, in the name of freedom. At the same time, he believes a growing international government, the United Nations, continually attempts to override these freedoms.

Autographed copies of the book are available exclusively at the WorldNetDaily online store, ShopNetDaily.

As liberals try to figure out how to reach talk-radio listeners, Savage explains that it is all in the message.

''Liberals supporting the same tax and spend policies and continuously assaulting our American culture and values is not what the American people want to hear,'' he says. ''We must uphold our patriotism, strong families and traditional American values,'' writes Savage. ''This book has the power to unravel years of liberal brainwashing.''

Michael Savage's unparalleled passion for the ''land of the free and the home of the brave'' can be heard daily on more than 300 radio stations nationwide. His unmistakable style has earned him 6 million listeners a week and made him the No. 1 afternoon drive-time host on KSFO in the San Francisco Bay Area. He's also heard in other major markets including New York on WABC and in Boston on WRKO and was just added to Baltimore's WCBM-AM.
by Henry Rollins
Friday Jan 31st, 2003 10:46 PM
I could kick Nugent's scrawny Republican ass any day and, as for Mike Savage, I'll stomp on you in the mosh pit, you hairy racist piece of garbage.

That's all I have to say today.
by Devon B
Friday Apr 25th, 2003 5:44 PM
Michael Savage is one of the many lucky members of society who has risen to success exercising his freedom to speak his mind. His opinions are his opinions just as yours are your own - and simply because you do not agree with his often outrageous viewpoints does not mean he should be banned from the airwaves. While you cannot stand what he has to say millions of people across the nation are thrilled by it all. These listeners are exercising their Freedom to Listen to whatever it is they care to listen to, and if you personally don't want Savage's "hot talk" entering your ears, then exercise yours by . . . not listening! What a concept. His being on the air is not going to threaten your everyday life. People are going to disagree with you. Millions of people. Get used to it, my friends. This is America where everybody gets a shot. Including Dr. Michael Savage.
by Same
(PatriSto7 [at] aol.com) Friday Sep 19th, 2003 11:28 PM
Mr. Savage is addressing many concerns that I beleive are important to American White Males!!
I personally have been denied jobs, schooling assistance becouse of "Afirmitive Action" and also had a 'black' man in the office of Small Business Adminstration deny a loan to start a shop.(in1989) He stated it was the fact that I was a "White Male" and therefore not entilted to government loans. He showed a plesure in this fact. So thats the way the minorites like it. Well put them to a test, see how smart they really are and go from there. I'm willing to test anytime!!
by Robin
(robin [at] robinsdoghouse.com) Wednesday Dec 24th, 2003 10:25 AM
Well you certaintly wouldn't pass a spelling test.
Becouse is spelled Because.
Afirmative is spelled Affirmative.
Plesure is spelled Pleasure.
thats is not even a word.

And that’s (that is) all she wrote,
A 43 year old white female.
by James Vincent
(jamesvincent05 [at] hotmail.com) Tuesday Jun 20th, 2006 4:46 PM
This is so typical with those on the left. Anyone who speaks against them is a either a fascist, or a hateful person. Dr. Laura was just one account of how these Marxist inspired liberals try to silence those who oppose their misguided radical beliefs. If they ever gain total power in this country they will one day imprison conservatives and burn down, or close our Christian churches. History has shown us how the Left has been responsible for the imprisonment of Hundreds of millions of people with at least that number of people executed. Wake up America!! The left want to control your mind!! If you speak out against them you are an enemy of the “STATE”!!
by James Vincent
(jamesvincent05 [at] hotmail.com) Tuesday Jun 20th, 2006 4:50 PM
If you had an IQ and wasn't brainwashed by your Marxist Teachers maybe you would realize that you on the left are the book burners and thought police. This is so typical with those on the left. Anyone who speaks against them is a either a fascist, or a hateful person. Dr. Laura was just one account of how these Marxist inspired liberals try to silence those who oppose their misguided radical beliefs. If they ever gain total power in this country they will one day imprison conservatives and burn down, or close our Christian churches. History has shown us how the Left has been responsible for the imprisonment of Hundreds of millions of people with at least that number of people executed. Wake up America!! The left want to control your mind!! If you speak out against them you are an enemy of the “STATE”!!
by James Vincent
Tuesday Jun 20th, 2006 4:55 PM
Are you sure your a Conservative and not a Marxist Liberal? Putting people in prison for speaking their mind is a Left Wing Liberal Marxist common way of silencing those who oppose them!!! Conservatives listen ,liberals yell and scream and pant that they are mistreated and victims!!
by Jim Aldea-Cruz
(jealdeacruz [at] aol.com) Thursday Oct 26th, 2006 3:50 PM
It seems to me that Dr. Savage's distractors are themselves engaged in Hate Radio. They want to pull him off the air for stating his opinions which for the most part are correct. They demand special rights but want to deny him his basic rights of freedom of speech. It is Ok for Black Muslim types to preach hate but not David Duke. It's OK to viciously attack our current President, George Bush but, God forbid say anything about former President Clinton who was clearly guilty of misconduct in office. His (Micheal Savage's), attack isn't racially or gender based. It is on idealogy plain and simple. His is nice and decent, theirs is clearly warped, not knowing right from wrong. Their worldview is sick.