Why its OK to burn an Israeli and Amerikkkan flag.

It is ALWAYS ok to burn a national flag, especially flags like Israel's and the U.S., two countries that perpetuate unjust and racist war. Long live internatinalism! Death to nationalism!

death to PALESTINIAN nationalism

You people are such losers! If you hate the United States and what it stands for, than why are you living here? You do not embrace its values or any of its actions, yet you still take advantage of its social programs and other benefits. As well, you are so good at complaining about all of the country's problems, but you do nothing to change it - writing witty comments on an unseen website or organizing/participating in a whiner protest does not count as action. If you really want to change things, get off the computer and go out and do something about it. Run for office, work for money to donate or, more probably, move to palestine, strap some dynamite on yourself and blow up some little children. Whatever you do, stop whining about the horrible United States while you are taking advantage of it! Either practice what you preach or be quiet.

Chris Drater

Chris,

The "love it or leave it" cop-out is both ignorant and hypocritical.

You say change work to change the system, and claim no one is doing anything to change the system. Then you complain that these same people are using the benefits of the system.

You also presume there's anyplace in the world safe from U.S. imperialism.

There is no place safe from U.S. imperialism, and while making statements on Indymedia may not constitute a tangible change, it is a valid and important form of expression.

Your presumptions that

a) People who are opposed to this system participate in it fully and ignorantly and
b) People who are opposed to this system do nothing effective to change it

Are wishful thinking, which serves as the sand you cover your head in.

Burning a US flag may be justified, but it is counter-productive. You will piss off almost all Americans. You will not help win them to your cause. Same for signs that say "Zionism is Nazism".

anon: True enough. And I'm adamantly opposed to a Flag Desecration Amendment.

At the local 7-ll, they sell a How to Protect Your Family From Terrorism
pamphlet. The pamphlet has a picture on the cover that depicts a large
gathering, of what looks like Middle-Easterners who have scarves covering
their faces, and they are burning a flag and doing what looks like
the standard "Death to the Great Satan" chant.

Yes, you heard me, i am proud to be a zionist.
Zionism, is the jewish nationalist movement who supports the establishment of a jewish nation in the ancient land of israel. As a Jew i have exactly the same right for a country of my own, like your avarage ranch, german or egyptian citizen. And the right to protect it from aggressors in exactly the same manner the armies of these nations will protect their own.
Zionism is not a dirty word, not more than, say American pride, or the anthem of france.
Once my homeland was attacked i have the right to defand it. Three arab armies has attacked Israel in 1967 (six day war), assisted by the palestinians, in the intention to annihilate Israel. Israel has won and captured Jerusalem and the West Bank from the hands of the Jordanian. In the recent years a peace treaty was signed between Israel and Jordan, and these territories were left in the custody of Israel.

..I am not ashamed to be a Zionist, i am proud.

"Three arab armies has attacked Israel in 1967 (six day war),
assisted by the palestinians, in the intention to annihilate Israel."

"On June 5th, Israel decided to launch a pre-emptive attack on Egypt."

"...Gamal Abdel Nasser vowed to avenge Arab losses (In the 1956 war) and press the cause of Palestinian nationalism. To this end, he organized an alliance of Arab states surrounding Israel and mobilized for war. Israel preempted the invasion with its own attack on June 5, 1967. In the following days, Israel drove Arab armies from the Sinai Peninsula, Gaza Strip, West Bank, and Golan Heights, all of which it then occupied."

A lot of people gave their lives for those flags and the ideals they represent. Just because you hate a government does not give you the right to piss on it's people. You don't see Americans burning Afghan, Arab, or Iraqi flags, do you? Hmmm, I wonder why. Maybe it's because we've got more sense than that.

Anyone who burns a flag of ANY nation is just a coward attempting to incite violence.

Go ahead, burn my flag. I'm still American. I still love my country more than yours. And you are still a pesky idiot. Nothing has changed.

"This week we will be discussing a spy story in Israel's early years that left a nasty mark on the young state, with reverberations for the following 20 years. It was called the "Lavon Affair"

...

"Robert Dassa was one of the first of the spies to be caught. Philip Nathanson was caught soon after when, on the way to blow up a cinema in Alexandria, the bomb he was carrying in his pocket ignited and then exploded. What was a particularly alarming factor was that outside of the theater a fire engine was waiting, as if expecting them. Philip had the distinct feeling he was being watched. It turned out that he had been.

As Philip lay on the ground, he saw startled and frightened faces looking down at him. While somebody shouted "Take care! He may have another bomb!" Philip heard a police sergeant say "Don't worry, don't worry. We were waiting for them. These are the people who set fire to the American library." He was taken by ambulance to a hospital. After being lightly treated, he was interrogated by members of Egypt's military intelligence, the Muhabarrat. The others were caught soon after - Shmuel Azar, Philip Nathanson, Robert Dassa, and Marcelle Ninio. None of them had been prepared by their Israeli handlers for this eventuality.

They refused to implicate one another. At first, they didn't even admit to the bombings. When the police brought Philip Nathanson to his house with incriminating material, which were sure to implicate him, Philip continued to maintain that he was innocent of all charges. As he recalls being brought to his house; "'The house was overflowing with policemen and detectives in and out of uniform. They took me straight to the garden, and to the workshop in the garden hut. This too was so crowded there was no room for me, and I remained standing on the threshold…The policemen had piled the table with Vim cans, chemicals, and the fine scales I used for weighing them. With each item they found, they asked me: 'What's this? What's it for?'"
'I told them I was manufacturing dyes.'
'Sure,' said the governor sarcastically. 'There's a good market for them, praise be to Allah.'"

The police took everything they could from his house, even a fork and a spoon, to be used as evidence against them. Victor Levy, Robert Dassa and Philip Nathanson held up to the persistent questioning, threats, and occasional beatings. They maintained that they were Communists who wanted the British imperialists out of Egypt. This even earned them the admiration and respect from the Egyptians, who also wanted the British out. That is, until Shmuel Azar, who was constitutionally incapable of telling a lie, admitted that they were Jews and Zionists working on behalf of the State of Israel. Thereafter, the whole network was rounded up and arrested by August 5, 1954. "Paul Frank", or Avraham Seidenberg, meanwhile, did nothing, and left Egypt only on August 5, when Meir Meyuhas and Moshe Marzouk were arrested."



http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/lavon.html

How people will get so worked up over a flag that they're willing to shred the Constitution to protect it...

"We the sheeple, in order to form a truly fucked up union, ensure a police state and domestic traquility at the point of a gun..."

Yes it is amazing.

Just as amazing as the fact that there are people who think the constitution is such "the end all, be all" that they never learn how to treat people and their beliefs with the respect they deserve.

It's like saying, "Well the constitution doesn't say I can't, so it must be my God given right to burn the flag." Stupid, huh? Yeah, it's your right. In fact, it's your duty. Why don't you go out in the streets right now and burn one.

We'll send you a get well card at the hospital while you're healing up from the ass-whipping you'll get.

I wonder if it's my God given right to whip your ass since the constitution doesn't say I can't? Hmmmm.

16th Amendment

...for voicing my views, how American, how hypocritical, how typical...

It is because of mindless people like yourself that I carry, to deter if possible, to defend when needed. I took an oath once, to protect and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. I still feel the need to follow that oath even though I'm no longer in the service. So feel free to assault me for exercising free speech, I will then exercise my right to self defense.

While I endever to be polite, I reserve my respect for those things and people that deserve it.

I see nothing wrong with Flag Burning because I believe in the 1st Amendment. And the problem with most people is that they only believe in free speech when it’s their views or political agenda that is protected, but the have no problems telling a person with a contradictor view or political agenda to “shut their pie hole” and instantly label them as an “anti” this or a “hater” of that.

If you truly believe in freedom of speech then the speech that must be most protected is unpopular speech. Just as people have the right to burning the American, Israeli, Palestine, Iraqi, Nazi, the Rainbow Flag, Confederated, or United Nations flag, they also have the right to fly and display those flags proudly and go about their business unmolested.

Will people label you for your actions if you fly or burn this flag or that flag? Of course, to say otherwise is very naïve and borderline stupid. A flag is a very significant political symbol and your actions with a flag tells a lot about your political views. So burn and fly those flags proudly, but know the price for true freedom of speech.

I didn't see ANY prowar people trying to pick fights with us. As said before, they would get their asses kicked!

Rogus, you are a fucking idiot. And I'm protected by the 1st Amendment to say that. Anyone who thinks it's ok to burn a flag because it's freedom of speech is certifiable. I guess it's ok for me to call you a stupid porch monkey sambo nigger then huh? Freedom of speech says so. Or maybe you're a slickback greesy corncob taco eatin' WOP? Or possibly towel headed muff faced sand nigger? Or maybe your just a fuckin' kike. Hey, freedom of speech guys, don't get mad at me. I protected. Maybe I'll just go into the movie theatre tomorrow and yell "FIRE!" at the top of muy lungs just for kicks. Freedom of speech right? I don't have to respect what anyone else thinks. I don't have to excercise any responsiblity. I don't give a rats a-hole if people died for that flag and some of us may consider it sacred. Shit, I'm atheist. I suppose I'll burn a few Bibles, Korans, and the fricken Code of Hammurabi while I'm at it. Gotta be able to excercise my freedom of speech. Gotta be allowed to make my point. I could care less how you feel about it you slant eyed, yellow faced gook.

If you took that oath and joined the military then your comment...

>So you would use violence against me...for voicing my views, how American, how hypocritical, how typical...

is in itself hypocritical. How did you plan plan to defend the constitution against all these so called enemies while you were a part of the war machine? Hunger strike? Non-violent protest? Lay down your body in the path of the advancing enemy tank?

When I threatend to beat you up, I really didn't plan on doing it. No, really, you can stop being afraid now. It was simply to make the point that the constitution is not the guiding doctrine for being a good human being. Nobody is saying shred the constitution. No one wants to impede your freedom of speech. But as I'm sure you know, freedom of speech requires responsibility. Some Americans hold the flag sacred. Some Americans respect the icons of all nations. The constitution doesn't tell you how to be a respectful human being. Why don't you go read it again.

And as I said, there is a price to pay for freedom of speech. John Rocker is the perfect example. I believe that John Rocker has every right to say his mind, but there was a price to pay, And he has paid that price for freedom of speech. The name John Rocker will forever be linked to being a racist and it cost him the respect of his fellow teammates and probably several endorsement deals too. Or do you think that it’s better for John Rocker to lynch because of comments? I think it’s better to let John Rocker speak his mind and let people judge him on that.

Yes you do have the right to speak your mind, but there is a price to pay. You want to use yelling fire in a movie theater as an example, sure yell fire in a movie theater, but if you get caught prepare to pay for the price of your freedom of speech.

And that’s what I mean by the price of freedom of speech, yes you have freedom of speech here, but there is a cost. And from the sound of Screaming Racist, if he is perfectly fine posting racial remarks that’s fine by me, but when people point at you and give you the John Rocker treatment, well that’s the price of freedom speech. I’m prepared to pay the price, but by the sounds of your sarcastic tirade, sounds like you are one of those hypocrites I was mentioning.

Rogus, that logic still makes no sense. What the hell do I need the 1st amendment for then? They don't have it in Iraq, but I guess they still have freedom of speech over there. They can say, "Screw Hussein, I hate his fricken guts" and the consequences are being taken out and shot.

It's not the consequences that we're dealing with here. If free speech has consequences, then it's not free. Free speech means exactly that...no consequences for speaking freely. None.

What we're dealing with isthe responsibility that goes along with freedom. Having free speech doesn't mean I can infringe on your rights. So freedom of speech has limits.

But there's no law against calling someone an uncle tom tar baby coon just like there's no law against flag burning. It's just insulting and rude. Logic dictates you shouldn't do it. So when you say there's nothing wrong with doing it, you're just being illogical.

You people who drone on and on about the values of the American flag are all the same. Paper tigers really. When the going gets tough. When there is a confrontation. You all just run away or call the cops. Talk about cowards!