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The only course to settlement is strong and "different" leadership on both sides. A Palestinian leader must step forward and recognize Israel as a state and work meaningfully to eliminate terrorism against Isreal. A new Israeli leader must step forward and recognize Palestine as a state and withdraw its occupation. Its not going to happen if Isreal merely withdraws. The terrorist will continue because they want the elimination of Isreal. Rational and fair minded people can see that. Why can't you. Why are you wasting your time with the tit for tat.
are you ready to accept a full state of palestine?
no ties, not check points, no israeli troops?
The 'occupation' has little to do with it. The lands that are designated 'occupied' were not in the possesion of any sovereign governemtn between 1949-1967. The lines commonly referred to as borders are merely armicist lines where the armies stopped fighting in 1949.
But facts are such inconvenient things, are they not
"I remember that the re-opening of the Suez Canal was portrayed in our mass media as a kind of defeat. A few years passed and a funny thing happened: those throw-us-into-the-sea Arabs came to talk with us, and in exchange for all of Sinai they would sign a full peace. The IDF chief of staff (the late Motte Gur, later a Labor Party minister) shouted that it is a hoax, that we should not believe Sadat, but the politicians had to sign. Already a teenager, I went and protested against the withdrawal from Sinai. It seemed strange to me that most of the demonstrators were orthodox Jews. After all, it was a purely logical issue: the Arabs are not to be trusted, that's what we've learned from day one. Well, lucky for the country, the government and the majority of the people employed a different logic, and the peace with Egypt was not missed. "
===> You really ought to try reading history instead of indymedia posts. Israel was indeed approached by Egypt for a peace deal after the '73 war. Egypt realized that they could not defeat israel on the battlefiled, but had 'saved face' by fighting israel again after the '67 defeat. Compare that with the Palis, who after Israel BACKED OFF a week and a half ago to satisfy Pres. Bush, the Palis responded with suicide bombs that killed over 40 people.
As far as the refusenik, he is like many on the left who refuse to acknowledge that Hamas and other Palestinian groups that have the power to inflict serious casualties have no interest in peace, and their stated goal is the destruction of israel. Read it yourself at http://www.palestine-info.com
If i come to your house, rape your daughter, murder your wife, and steal your money, would you have a right to 'fight back? Well, Israel just lost over 40 of her citizens in 5 days thanks to suicide attacks, and you think Israel has no right to respond? Again, the attacks were committed by Hamas, who is not protesting occupation of west bank, but the existence of israel itself.
It seems like you dont agree with Assaf Oron, but he would agree with you. Its obvious that Hamas and other Palestinian groups have the power to inflict serious casualties - but he would point out that the only peaceful developments in Israel's history, such as the peace treaties or the withdrawl from Lebanon, have not been through further killing and suppression but reconciliation. In Clinton's recent speech at UC Berkeley he admitted that terrorism (and sympathy for it) is rooted in economic and political hardship, and if you solve these, then you solve your problem. "We've got to spread the benefits and shrink the burdens of the modern world," he said. Look at both Afghanis and Palestinians and you will see quite an economic gap between them and thier attackers. Also take a look at the support for these radical groups as the situation in Palestine has worsened. This is fairly simple for someone being objective (not loyal) to understand.
Why are the fundamentals of peace so hard for you and generals like Sharon to comprehend? Are the 25,000 without water in Ramallah right now (many of which are American citizens) good for Israel's security? You might as well throw them into the sea.
Your last comment is interesting, as this is exactly what the Palestinian fighters would say, as here we have the IDF in their houses doing exactly what is described, so in a sense, you're right. I have an Israeli friend who has plenty of stories of his time with the IDF and the "fun" they had serving in the occupied territories.
===> What is important is what the Israeli public says, overwhelmingly in polls they support a palestinian state. You got any friends who served in Hamas by chance?
It seems like you dont agree with Assaf Oron, but he would agree with you. Its obvious that Hamas and other Palestinian groups have the power to inflict serious casualties - but he would point out that the only peaceful developments in Israel's history, such as the peace treaties or the withdrawl from Lebanon, have not been through further killing and suppression but reconciliation.
===> You are missing the point. Egypt was ready for conciliation, Hamas, and the PA who refuses to confront Hamas, are not. This is the key point that Assaf and other progressives refuse to acknowledge.
In Clinton's recent speech at UC Berkeley he admitted that terrorism (and sympathy for it) is rooted in economic and political hardship, and if you solve these, then you solve your problem. "We've got to spread the benefits and shrink the burdens of the modern world," he said.
===. Well, CLinton really did much for peace didn't he? Sarcasm aside, it isn;t that simple to 'solve the problem'. All the classes i had at Cal where they talked theory up their wazzoo doesn;t mean a thing when confronted with groups such as Hamas and Al-Qaeda, who thrive on their hardships.
Look at both Afghanis and Palestinians and you will see quite an economic gap between them and thier attackers.
===> Huh?
Also take a look at the support for these radical groups as the situation in Palestine has worsened. This is fairly simple for someone being objective (not loyal) to understand
===> The same tired 'they were poor and desperate' excuse. It doesn;t explain the Khomeni revolution in 1979, and it doesn;t explain why millions of desperate folks are .not detonating themselves
Why are the fundamentals of peace so hard for you and generals like Sharon to comprehend?
===. Because theory-heads like you see the world the way you want it, not how it is. 'fundamentals of peace', please, go take another PACS class at Berkeley. Read the Hamas website. they do what they do because they want Israel destroyed.
Are the 25,000 without water in Ramallah right now (many of which are American citizens) good for Israel's security? You might as well throw them into the sea.
===> No, but after 5 days in which over 40 Israelis died, Israel has to take steps. I feel for the people of Ramallah, but the people of ramallah need to decide if they want intifada or if they want a state of their own and peace with israel. It;s one or the other.
-I have a thing against polls, but if you want to get into that whole thing, there was also one not to long ago that showed a majority supported the expulsion of the Palestinian population. But I don't enjoy complaing about that as much as you like to about Hamas. I'm more concerned with what is actually is going on.
===> You are missing the point. Egypt was ready for conciliation, Hamas, and the PA who refuses to confront Hamas, are not. This is the key point that Assaf and other progressives refuse to acknowledge.
-The PA is not ready for reconciliation?! Man, you sound just like Israeli State Department PR. I'm sorry that's just too ridiclious a statement for me to argue with.
===. Well, CLinton really did much for peace didn't he? Sarcasm aside, it isn;t that simple to 'solve the problem'. All the classes i had at Cal where they talked theory up their wazzoo doesn;t mean a thing when confronted with groups such as Hamas and Al-Qaeda, who thrive on their hardships.
-While I don't cheer for Clinton's peace efforts, he sure did a lot more than Bush is doing now. I wonder, how do you feel about the international presence that Israel is refusing?
===> Huh?
-Afghanistan -> one of the poorest countries in the world
America -> the richest, most powerful country in the world
the palestinians -> a landless people, dependent on Israel both politically and economically (excluding refugess in surrounding countries)
Israel -> most powerful mideast military, largest recipient of U.S. foreign aid
===> The same tired 'they were poor and desperate' excuse. It doesn;t explain the Khomeni revolution in 1979, and it doesn;t explain why millions of desperate folks are .not detonating themselves
- No reason explains everything. And if things go as they are now, you can bet we will see those suicide attacks continue to rise. (I just heard a report about little girls who are ready to do so.)
===. Because theory-heads like you see the world the way you want it, not how it is. 'fundamentals of peace', please, go take another PACS class at Berkeley. Read the Hamas website. they do what they do because they want Israel destroyed.
- Ah, the realists continue to believe it can't be done. Sorry to inform you, but peace is not something for theory heads, but a very important facet of politics and underlying principle for virtually all religious belief. I guess you would like to keep Dr. King's Dream just a dream. Meanwhile, I'll be marching.
===> No, but after 5 days in which over 40 Israelis died, Israel has to take steps. I feel for the people of Ramallah, but the people of ramallah need to decide if they want intifada or if they want a state of their own and peace with israel. It;s one or the other.
-why is it that Israel can "take steps" in response to deaths but the palestinians cannot (as you well know how many dead they can begin listing). its this double standard, that shows most IDF defenders are doing so because of loyalty (national/religious/ethnic...) and not morals. while the hawks are homogenous in this respect, the diverse, global support for palestinians is self-evident. the people of ramallah, just like the africans in south africa, have decided they want both self-determination and peace, and have chosen popular resistance to create it.
>>> considering Hamas just murdered 40 people in the past 5 days, i say they are part of what is going on, and th ebiggest reason why israel is lashing out.
===> You are missing the point. Egypt was ready for conciliation, Hamas, and the PA who refuses to confront Hamas, are not. This is the key point that Assaf and other progressives refuse to acknowledge.
-The PA is not ready for reconciliation?! Man, you sound just like Israeli State Department PR. I'm sorry that's just too ridiclious a statement for me to argue with.
>>>> actions speak louder than words. During Hamas's killing spree during 1995-1996, the PA did not confront them and shut them down. I don;t understand why you feel this is ridiculous.
===. Well, CLinton really did much for peace didn't he? Sarcasm aside, it isn;t that simple to 'solve the problem'. All the classes i had at Cal where they talked theory up their wazzoo doesn;t mean a thing when confronted with groups such as Hamas and Al-Qaeda, who thrive on their hardships.
-While I don't cheer for Clinton's peace efforts, he sure did a lot more than Bush is doing now. I wonder, how do you feel about the international presence that Israel is refusing?
>>> Clinton's desperation to get a deal at the end of his term led in part to the failure of Camp David with barak and arafat. International peacekeepers that were stationed between egypt and israel pre-june 1967 did nothing, and international forces on the israel lebanon border have allowed IDF solders to be attacked and kidnapped, while preventing Israel from fighting back.
===> Huh?
-Afghanistan -> one of the poorest countries in the world
America -> the richest, most powerful country in the world
the palestinians -> a landless people, dependent on Israel both politically and economically (excluding refugess in surrounding countries)
>>> In 1947 the Palestinians turned down UN resoultion 181, the partition plan, which would have given them a state. Between 1949 and 1967, while jordan occupied the west bank, no attempt wa smade to form a Palestinian state. It is sad they are landless, but that is their choice.
- No reason explains everything. And if things go as they are now, you can bet we will see those suicide attacks continue to rise. (I just heard a report about little girls who are ready to do so.)
>>> Nice copout. Arafat and the PA have helped to foster a culture of shahids, of martyrdom. I realize that having Israle in their faces adds fuel to the fire, but at the same time absent a political agreement, how does Israel withdraw. Again, i reference Hamas and other groups who are killing israelis, who have stated time and time again that the battle does not end when Israel withdraws from the territories.
- Ah, the realists continue to believe it can't be done. Sorry to inform you, but peace is not something for theory heads, but a very important facet of politics and underlying principle for virtually all religious belief. I guess you would like to keep Dr. King's Dream just a dream. Meanwhile, I'll be marching.
>>> I am a religious person, and i am someone who spends a great deal of time in Israel. I have a deeply vested interest in peace, so spare me the self righteousness. Your marching does nothing to encourage a peaceful 2 state resolution. Perhaps you will join a pro-Israel march againts suicide terorism?
===> No, but after 5 days in which over 40 Israelis died, Israel has to take steps. I feel for the people of Ramallah, but the people of ramallah need to decide if they want intifada or if they want a state of their own and peace with israel. It;s one or the other.
-why is it that Israel can "take steps" in response to deaths but the palestinians cannot (as you well know how many dead they can begin listing). its this double standard, that shows most IDF defenders are doing so because of loyalty (national/religious/ethnic...) and not morals. while the hawks are homogenous in this respect, the diverse, global support for palestinians is self-evident.
>>> I see a bunchof left wing socialists exploiting the people of palestine for their own shallow political gains. It's easy to have an intifada in SF, isn;t it?
the people of ramallah, just like the africans in south africa, have decided they want both self-determination and peace, and have chosen popular resistance to create it.
>>>ok, so they have chosen popular resistence. The key word is 'chosen'. Once that choice is made, then they have to live or die by their choice. Listen to you, you are saying that terrorism is a legitmate choice, and at the same time Israel should not retaliate. I wish they would choose peace, but if they choose to fight, than i back Israel 100% in fighting back, by any means neccesary.
>>> My postion is clear. I support a 2 state solution, with clear and recognized borders. Restitution to families of Palestinians who lost land, and a demilitarized palestinian state with a national police force, similar to Costa Rica. There also needs to be full normalized relations between Israel and all othe rARab states, as well as restitution for the 800,000 Jewish refugees of arab lands from 1948.
>>>> you can continue to march for 'popular resistance', I will continue to strive for peace.
"Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French…What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct…If they [the Jews] must look to the Palestine of geography as their national home, it is wrong to enter it under the shadow of the British gun. A religious act cannot be performed with the aid of the bayonet or the bomb. They can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs…As it is, they are co-sharers with the British in despoiling a people who have done no wrong to them. I am not defending the Arab excesses. I wish they had chosen the way of non-violence in resisting what they rightly regard as an unacceptable encroachment upon their country. But according to the accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing can be said against the Arab resistance in the face of overwhelming odds."
_______________________
Mahatma Gandhi quoted in "A Land of Two Peoples" ed. Mendes-Flohr
I am an advocate of the Palestinian fight for freedom from oppression. Like most Palestinian advocates, I also believe in the right for Israel to exist. Those on both side of this issue who keep insisting that all the other side wants is the complete elimination of the other side, do not know what they are talking about. While there are extremist on both sides who would favor such a solution, it is a minority on both sides.
The killing of all civilians is terrorism. This is contrary to many on both side of this issue who think that killing civilians is OK when they are the enemy. While nonviolence activists like Gandhi and King were very successful, I doubt that approach would work in the unique Mideast war, since Sharon has always been disdainful of world opinion. It is easy to criticize some Palestinians for their resort to bombing attack on civilians, however many fights for freedom, including the American civil war did involve bloodshed.
The Palestinians have a terrible choice. In my opinion they certainly cannot win a military war. Stones and guns are no match for tanks, F-16s and nuclear weapons. Sadly, neither do I think they can win with the Gandhi and King nonviolent approach, since this would require an important change in American public opinion, which would require a fair shake in the American media. Because our mainstream media is largely owned by rich, war-loving, Jewish tycoons with anti-Arab/Muslim views, that possibility is nonexistent.
Without some catastrophic event happening, Sharon will continue the takeover of Palestine by bulldozing a dozen homes at a time. All American politicians including Bush, will meekly go along with whatever Sharon wants since they are all too intimidated by the power of the media to challenge the Jewish lobby. Sadly, the fate of Palestinians will be similar to the fate of the American Indians, they have no real control of events.
Meanwhile politicians will continue giving $3.000.000.000 a year of our tax dollars to Israel, at a time when 23,000,000 human beings in America are using soup kitchens.