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Why Jews Censor Latuff
Latuff cartoons are a protest against Israeli racism towards Palestinian. Latuff work like that of all political cartoonist is creative.
There is no question in my mind, that these cartoons are in support of the Palestinian people who are being killed at a rate of about four to one.
To illustrate a point, all cartoonist exgagerate. That does not make anybody a Nazi. Throwing this word around to silence free speech is despicable.
The following are two pertinent articles published today on Israel's indymedia site.
He is right 200%
by lidia 8:19pm Tue Feb 19 '02
lidiavolgina [at] yahoo.com
"Excerpted from Amir Oren, Ha'aretz 25/01/02):
> "In order to prepare adequately for the next stage, one of IDF commanders in
> the territories said recently, that it is justified and even vital to draw
> lessons from every possible source. If the mission is the occupation of a
> densely populated refugee camp, or the Nablus Casba, and the commander's
> objective is to aim to carry out the mission without casualties, on neither
> side, then he needs to analyze and internalise the lessons from previous
> battles; even -- horrible as it may sound -- how the German army operated in
> the Warsaw Ghetto.
> "The officer succeeded indeed to cause a shock, since, among other things,
> he is not alone holding that opinion: many of his friends agree that in
> order to save Israelis now, it is right to summon up knowledge accumulated
> in that horrendous way, whose victims were their relatives. Warsaw Ghetto
> plays only an extreme model for them, ..."
I do not know if the cartoonist were aware about this, but what an insight!
This is the best proof of his rightness.
__________________________________
A few more words on the Latuff vs. AKdH affair
by àééì øåæ<eth>áøâ 1:30pm Tue Feb 19 '02
This is a response I've sent to Mr. Althoff of the "Children of the Holocaust Action" organization, which has caused indymedia Switzerland to go off-line following the appearance there of Latuff's cartoon (see link below)
After reading your rather irritating analysis of one of Latuff's 'I am Palestinian' cartoons, I feel obligated to say a few words in response.
It is true that the cartoon draws a comparison between the suffering of the Jews in the ghettos and the suffering of the Palestinians by the hands of Israel. However, the 'clear association' which you find in the cartoon is only clear to devout Zionists such as yourself, who make the equation "Israel = The Jews". Even, though, if one was to make such an equation - which is wholly invalid, of course - the cartoon does still not suggest that Jews experience an urge to re-stage the ghetto trauma, it merely suggests that a somewhat similar situation was in fact created here. Moreover, the fact is that the ethnic cleansing of Palestine was conceived by the Zionist movement decades before the Holocaust or the rise of Nazism in Germany, therefore the root causes of the Zionist actions here in Palestine have nothing to do with the Jewish Holocaust, and do not constitute a re-staging of it.
Also, comparing a state to Nazi Germany with respect to its treatment of some ethnic group does not constitute an accusation of that state's _only_ goal being the extermination of the oppressed ethnic group. Israel has many goals other than 'getting rid' of the Palestinians; it just so happens that at this time this goal is the most apparent. You may find this surprising, but I personally have heard numerous Israelis, especially IDF infantrymen, proclaiming outright: "The Arabs are not human, they are animals, and we should inflict upon them a Holocaust of their own". Note that this is a direct quote, not a paraphrase.
The 'reduction of Jews to a symbol', even if one were to accept your preposterous equation of "Israel = The Jews", is the essence of any caricature. All caricatures employ symbols, or reduce situations or people to symbols. I cannot understand why you're even mentioning that as a problem, unless you would forbid us the use of political caricatures altogether.
The two insinuations you infer from the 'child against the wall' symbolisms are invalid. Firstly, it is a well-known fact that the Jewish Holocaust is not at all a singular experience (only recently the Tutsi experienced massive genocide in Rwanda). Secondly, again, it is not insinuated that Israel is following a comprehensively genocidal agenda, but merely a somewhat genocidal agenda, which is true. But when you venture onwards to conclude from these supposed insinuations that the cartoon implies that unless Jews are victims of racist oppression they must be part of a global conspiracy, well, that is just your imagination working overtime. This claim of yours has absolutely no basis in reality.
Your claim that the cartoon calls for the extermination of the Jews is too ridiculous to bother and refute.
I fail to understand why the fact that some Arab cartoonists employ some type of imagery or another has any bearing on the nature of Latuff's cartoon. Besides, if an anti-Semitic cartoonist compares Israel to the Nazis, shouldn't you interpret that as a compliment? You can't both be an anti-Semite and use Nazism as a purely negative symbol.
As for your accusation of the cartoon of being sensationalistic and abusive of the suffering of Jews in the Holocaust by make polemical and lurid use of it - that's debatable. The image is certainly rather blunt, but much political and a-political art employing the Holocaust in some form has been created both by Jews and non-Jews, Israelis and non-Israelis - so we're long past the metaphorical use of the Holocaust being considered taboo (which it never should have been, anyway). Haven't you heard of Mel Brooks' 'Springtime for Hitler'?
Finally, I would have you know that I whole-heartedly adopt this cartoon as representative of my own personal views, as a Jew. So unless you believe me to be a Jew who wants to exterminate all Jews, I suggest you retract your claims regarding the cartoon.
Eyal Rozenberg
P.S. - I know this is a rather cheap shot, but my grandfather's family did not burn in Auschwitz for _you_ to make use of them in furthering your anti-Palestinian political agenda.
To illustrate a point, all cartoonist exgagerate. That does not make anybody a Nazi. Throwing this word around to silence free speech is despicable.
The following are two pertinent articles published today on Israel's indymedia site.
He is right 200%
by lidia 8:19pm Tue Feb 19 '02
lidiavolgina [at] yahoo.com
"Excerpted from Amir Oren, Ha'aretz 25/01/02):
> "In order to prepare adequately for the next stage, one of IDF commanders in
> the territories said recently, that it is justified and even vital to draw
> lessons from every possible source. If the mission is the occupation of a
> densely populated refugee camp, or the Nablus Casba, and the commander's
> objective is to aim to carry out the mission without casualties, on neither
> side, then he needs to analyze and internalise the lessons from previous
> battles; even -- horrible as it may sound -- how the German army operated in
> the Warsaw Ghetto.
> "The officer succeeded indeed to cause a shock, since, among other things,
> he is not alone holding that opinion: many of his friends agree that in
> order to save Israelis now, it is right to summon up knowledge accumulated
> in that horrendous way, whose victims were their relatives. Warsaw Ghetto
> plays only an extreme model for them, ..."
I do not know if the cartoonist were aware about this, but what an insight!
This is the best proof of his rightness.
__________________________________
A few more words on the Latuff vs. AKdH affair
by àééì øåæ<eth>áøâ 1:30pm Tue Feb 19 '02
This is a response I've sent to Mr. Althoff of the "Children of the Holocaust Action" organization, which has caused indymedia Switzerland to go off-line following the appearance there of Latuff's cartoon (see link below)
After reading your rather irritating analysis of one of Latuff's 'I am Palestinian' cartoons, I feel obligated to say a few words in response.
It is true that the cartoon draws a comparison between the suffering of the Jews in the ghettos and the suffering of the Palestinians by the hands of Israel. However, the 'clear association' which you find in the cartoon is only clear to devout Zionists such as yourself, who make the equation "Israel = The Jews". Even, though, if one was to make such an equation - which is wholly invalid, of course - the cartoon does still not suggest that Jews experience an urge to re-stage the ghetto trauma, it merely suggests that a somewhat similar situation was in fact created here. Moreover, the fact is that the ethnic cleansing of Palestine was conceived by the Zionist movement decades before the Holocaust or the rise of Nazism in Germany, therefore the root causes of the Zionist actions here in Palestine have nothing to do with the Jewish Holocaust, and do not constitute a re-staging of it.
Also, comparing a state to Nazi Germany with respect to its treatment of some ethnic group does not constitute an accusation of that state's _only_ goal being the extermination of the oppressed ethnic group. Israel has many goals other than 'getting rid' of the Palestinians; it just so happens that at this time this goal is the most apparent. You may find this surprising, but I personally have heard numerous Israelis, especially IDF infantrymen, proclaiming outright: "The Arabs are not human, they are animals, and we should inflict upon them a Holocaust of their own". Note that this is a direct quote, not a paraphrase.
The 'reduction of Jews to a symbol', even if one were to accept your preposterous equation of "Israel = The Jews", is the essence of any caricature. All caricatures employ symbols, or reduce situations or people to symbols. I cannot understand why you're even mentioning that as a problem, unless you would forbid us the use of political caricatures altogether.
The two insinuations you infer from the 'child against the wall' symbolisms are invalid. Firstly, it is a well-known fact that the Jewish Holocaust is not at all a singular experience (only recently the Tutsi experienced massive genocide in Rwanda). Secondly, again, it is not insinuated that Israel is following a comprehensively genocidal agenda, but merely a somewhat genocidal agenda, which is true. But when you venture onwards to conclude from these supposed insinuations that the cartoon implies that unless Jews are victims of racist oppression they must be part of a global conspiracy, well, that is just your imagination working overtime. This claim of yours has absolutely no basis in reality.
Your claim that the cartoon calls for the extermination of the Jews is too ridiculous to bother and refute.
I fail to understand why the fact that some Arab cartoonists employ some type of imagery or another has any bearing on the nature of Latuff's cartoon. Besides, if an anti-Semitic cartoonist compares Israel to the Nazis, shouldn't you interpret that as a compliment? You can't both be an anti-Semite and use Nazism as a purely negative symbol.
As for your accusation of the cartoon of being sensationalistic and abusive of the suffering of Jews in the Holocaust by make polemical and lurid use of it - that's debatable. The image is certainly rather blunt, but much political and a-political art employing the Holocaust in some form has been created both by Jews and non-Jews, Israelis and non-Israelis - so we're long past the metaphorical use of the Holocaust being considered taboo (which it never should have been, anyway). Haven't you heard of Mel Brooks' 'Springtime for Hitler'?
Finally, I would have you know that I whole-heartedly adopt this cartoon as representative of my own personal views, as a Jew. So unless you believe me to be a Jew who wants to exterminate all Jews, I suggest you retract your claims regarding the cartoon.
Eyal Rozenberg
P.S. - I know this is a rather cheap shot, but my grandfather's family did not burn in Auschwitz for _you_ to make use of them in furthering your anti-Palestinian political agenda.
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These people need to get a clue:
1. Jews are followers of a religion, not a race. Most Jews are Euro-Caucasian descendants of ancesters who converted to Judaism centuries ago in Europe-they are NOT Semitic people.
2. Palestinians and Arabs, on the other hand, ARE of Semitic ethnicity. Just because they are Muslim or Christian does not make them any less Semitic.
3. By persecuting and massacering Palestinians and Arabs, Israelies are just as guilty of anti-Semitism and racism as the nazis that persecuted and massacered their ancestors in Europe.
4. Which means Zionism is racism just like America's "manifest destiny", Hitler's "Third Reich" and the former Apartheid regime of South Africa.
What Sharon and his bunch in Israel are doing right now is using the attrocities committed by the nazis against their ancestors in Europe to committ their own brand of genocide against Palestinians, in the same way Bush and his bunch in America are using the deaths of thousands killed(possibly by their own doing) in the World Trade Center and Pentagon attacks to committ genocide against people all over the world in a racist so-called "war on terrorism".
Nothing can be sicker and sorryier than this sort of exploitation of the losses of your own to further a patently evil and racist agenda!
Anti-Semitism is anti-Semitism,- Israel and America are BOTH guilty as charged!
I do not think, that Karen would not have posted the two articles, if she was the type of person you imply.
I do not think, that Karen would not have posted the two articles, if she was the type of person you imply.
But the Israelis don't kill Palestinians just because they are Jewish genocidal maniacs. For in truth, humans are murderers. Natural born killers. They murder for raw materials, for land. The land hungry Jews in the middle east will go to the greatest extremes to feed the denial of what they are doing. They will use all of the usual tricks, right out of the USA play book. Face it, humans are killers. And that is why we proto chimps have been such a successful species. Many of us have grown to recognize this fact, and we work to fight the internal desires to go into our neighbors yard and kill him for his/her property.
This might seem a bit simplistic to many of you. But I believe it is true. From 44 years of watching my fellow man. The middle east Jews will continue to kill those around them who are weaker. Those who have property they cannot defend against the Jew/American war machine. They will continue to steal from weaker people until they are stopped. That is human nature. I don't think it matters a tinkers damn what name you try to give it in an effort to get PC. Jew. Israeli. American. Murderers are murderers. It don't matter today in Palestine who got the shitty end of the stick in Nazi Germany. And the rough treatment toward the Jews in Nazi Germany should not be used as a shield from criticism for what the Jews themselves are doing to weaker people today. Just because the Jews got a rough deal in Germany doesn't mean the world should look the other way as they attempt to steal Palestine without paying for it, which all started before the German/Jew holocaust.
I am not one to sit around feeling sorry for the Jews because of Germany, while ignoring their own little ongoing holocaust. OK, they got a rough deal in Germany. That doesn't mean they get to go around killing people for their property,while no one says anything because they think the Jews have had a rough time of it. So what! So did my Cherokee ancestors. That doesn't mean the Cherokee have the right to go back to our home land and kill people, and expert the world to look the other way because of "The Trail Of Tears."
Hey Jews, or Israelites, or whatever you wish to be called today, quit murdering weaker people for land and raw materials that don't belong to you. Looking over your shoulder to see if mass murdering America approves, is not justification for you actions.
It is telling how defenders of Israel stoop to allegations of anti-semetism. It's what we call "a confession without torture." Zionists are such zealots, they are genuinely unable to understand everyone doesn't share their vision of Jews as unique in history. Other people believe in "human rights" and "solidarity." Zionists believe in nothing but a fascist state for themselves, consequences be damned.
And the whole world hates them for it. Just as the corrupt Arab dictatorships are despised. And their patrons in Washington DC.
Jews have every right to live in Palestine. No one, and I mean no one, says otherwise. Even Hamas supports the rights of jews to live in the region. Only the Zionists have a policy of ethnic cleansing and removal.
Latuff – keep going man. We're with you. History is with you.
When are we going to stand up to the pity party that seems to surround the Jewish people in the middle east. Are we all so ashamed that we stood by and did nothing while Hitler and his henchmen killed millions, that now we won't stand up and tell them to quit their killing and land theft in Palestine. And hell, any time anyone says a frickin word about it, they are attacked as a bigot anti semite. I don't believe that crap for one second. HEY, ALL YOU JEWS IN THE MIDDLE EAST!!! QUIT KILLING PALESTINIAN CHILDREN!!! There, that didn't hurt. And saying it doesn't make me a bigot. It makes me a person who is sick of seeing Palestinian children mowed down by Jewish tank fire.
You want to talk genocide. 10 million Native Americans. 25 million African Americans during slavery. 20 million Russians under communism. Millions of Africans. It goes on and on. So why in the hell do we tip toe around the Jewish people when we all have been hit with genocide. I am sick and tired of the Jewish feel sorry for me attitude, when every race on earth has suffered genocide. We are all in the same boat. We are all on the same blue ball. There is no difference between a Jew, a Cherokee, an African or any other ethnicity on earth. We are all the same when you get right down to it.
I will say again, I am not a hater of Jews. I think most people are good when given the chance. Regardless of their racial background. People are people, where ever you find them. I just don't believe we should tip toe around the Jewish population because they are still stinging from the holocaust. The Cherokee people are still stinging from the American holocaust. The whole of the Native American Nations are still suffering. So is the African American population. The Latino. Nobody thinks twice about saying "Indian." But we are supposed to whisper the word "Jew," least we hurt some Jewish persons delicate sensibilities. Bullshit. My final message to those who call me an anti semite- "get over yourselves, toughen up, we've all suffered a bit of genocide. That doesn't mean the world should be silent while you steal other peoples land and kill their children."
By equating honest anti-fascism with anti-Semitism, Zionsits turn decent people into anti-semites.
Let me tell you about living in New York. The owner of the Daily News, our largest tab, is also the head of one of the largest Zionist organizations in America. You can't get a word in edgewise. And it really pisses people off. Jackie Mason can do racist stand-up on Broadway to a packed house. But let an African-American criticize Israel. David Dinkins constant trips to Israel to parade around and make the liberal Jews backing him feel like they had their guy. And they still sold him out. What does that make people think?
Zionism is a fiasco on every level. It makes Jews weak, despised and feared. Hardly the cultural legacy my grandmother taught me about.
Palestine will win.
Thanks for your writing. You have outlined the situation in a straightfoward manner that anyone can understand. Ignore the little troll who attempts to undermine the truth through crude ad hominem attacks. Israel's occupation is unjust, brutal, and hypocritical, and it should end.
But I think the Warsaw ghetto cartoon is probably one of the most sensative, easy to understand cartoons he's put out. Isn't it obvious that Latuff is expressing solidarity with this kid?
Other recent pro-Palestinian by him cartoons are more problematic. This "INTIFADA ROCKS" cartoon flirts with violent ethnic nationalism, a trend which does have some ties to Nazi-style antisemitism.
I am an American Jew, who has seen the death/extermination records of my reliatives who didn't make it out of Poland in time. The Palestinian people cry out for liberation NOW, and as people with a heritage of oppression and persecution, I believe Jews everywhere must offer solidarity.
That doesn't mean supporting reactionary movements among the Palestinians. I'm not saying I think Latuff goes around wearing Fateh tshirts, but I think the left sometimes has a tendency to sympathize with rightwing movements when they are involved in a national liberation struggle.
Palestine is all of historic Palestine. If jews want to stay and live in peace with their neighbors, then all power to them. One democratic state for the people of the reion. Anything else is demogoguery. Israel should be destroyed as a state. It is racist to the core. "A state of the Jewish people," my ass. How about democracy of citizens?
Only Zionists support Israel. And that's a small number of people indeed.
Palestine will win.
Actually, the PA has followed your advice. They are demanding nothing except full control of the West Bank and Gaza. This is of course contrary to international law.
===> Interesting. But if we look at 'International Law', we see the *borders* that seem to define exactly what the *West Bank* is are not borders at all, but merely armiscist lines from the 1948-49 war. But here I go, another silly Zionist throwing facts at your slogans!
Palestine is all of historic Palestine.
===> *Historical Palestine* is a colonial concoction carved out by the british and frnch in 1920. It's called the British Mandate, and it also included what is now known as Jordan. Or maybe you refer to *historic Plaestine* as being ottoman Syria? Fascinating.
"A state of the Jewish people," my ass. How about democracy of citizens?
===. I feel no need to attempt to justify the need for a Jewish state on this planet. I woul drather be called a racist than be a statistic in a genocide.
Only Zionists support Israel. And that's a small number of people indeed.
===> "ONly ZIonists support Israel." You certainly have a clever way with words! That small amount indeed is the majority of Americans, and that-is-all-that-counts!
bye bye
Zionism=Genocide I wonder???
It doesn't really matter what name you give yourselves- Zionists, Nazis, the US Army. If you are a stronger, highly militirized group of people attacking a weak neighbor, in an effort to take land and raw materials from them, without pay, you are a low life, genocidal thief. But hey, that's just my take on the Palestinian blood bath.
It's just human nature. Although, not the side of human nature most of us are proud of. It doesn't matter what you call yourselves. As far as I'm concerned, you all can change your name from Zionists to "The Funky Tones," and you will still be a pack of killers, feeding off the worst base impulses human nature has to offer.
this is how cherokee talks: the zionist imperial scum and their lackey running dogs in the media are agents of imperial fascist pigs committing genocide against all oppressed peoples and we must rise up and talk in nothing but cliches until there's no one left on our side and then we can pretend we're cherokees and be bozos even though our name is really Joe and we live in Queens and we gotta an interstate running through our front yards we think we got it so good. ain't that america, ain't that america, yeah, yeah, yeah, little pink tepees for you and me, cherokee nation, yeah, yeah, yeah.........ya volt, herr cherokkkeee! you is first Native American Nazi! Ya volt! Heil cherokee! He talks in cliches and is a big buffoon! Pttttttttttttttttthhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! to you and the horse you ran in on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
ooh, cherokee nation, cherokee pride.......
The majority of American voters see what you refuse to, and that makes all the difference to me.
Palestine should be proud to have you as an advocate.
It is true that you have the backing of the Pentagon, the Bush mafia and the CIA. But they are not the American people. Don't kid yourself. I can't think of a single person I have spoken with who approves of what is happening to the Palestinian people. You confuse the plutocrats with the American people. They are a different bunch of folks. From what I hear, the bulk of the USA is a bit sick and tired of the Zionist attitude, and would like to see you all put back in your place. Which means off of Palestinian property. That is what I am hearing from America.
But then, I'm not a city boy, living somewhere like New York, where the opinions are worth far more than they are here in the middle of the Cascade Mountains, in the fair state of Oregon. Heck, us back woods mountain folk couldn't even begin to understand the complexities of the Zionist mission. We see people shooting tanks at kids, and we just naturally assume that something is a bit cockeyed. It takes one shit load of denial to be a Zionist these days, I guess. Some people seem to be able to wash the blood off a bit easier than others.
Thank you for being so entertaining. You guys are a real scream.
==> Silly high handed ideals, such as, "no more jews put in ovens." I apologize for offending your moral self congratulations with my pithy wants.
It is true that you have the backing of the Pentagon, the Bush mafia and the CIA. But they are not the American people. Don't kid yourself. I can't think of a single person I have spoken with who approves of what is happening to the Palestinian people.
===> Hehehe. Indeed, from the backwoods of Oregon up there you must be talking to many of the 300 million Americans indeed. I mean, gosh, if Cherokee hasn;t spoken to those peole, than who has? Thanks for the laugh.
You confuse the plutocrats with the American people. They are a different bunch of folks. From what I hear, the bulk of the USA is a bit sick and tired of the Zionist attitude, and would like to see you all put back in your place. Which means off of Palestinian property. That is what I am hearing from America.
==> Exactly right, from what you hear. But when you take the time to speak to more folks than the handsome one staring at you from the mirror, you will find that the majority of Americans support the right of the Jews to have their own state. Indeed, put back in our place? I think we are getting down to the nitty gritty of where you are coming from with this. As long as we Jews don;t get too uppity, as long as we know our place and don't try to claim that we have a right to self-determination and self defense against the next pogrom to come along, than Cherokee is A-Ok with us kikes, err, Hebrew people. Hehehe
But then, I'm not a city boy, living somewhere like New York, where the opinions are worth far more than they are here in the middle of the Cascade Mountains, in the fair state of Oregon. Heck, us back woods mountain folk couldn't even begin to understand the complexities of the Zionist mission. We see people shooting tanks at kids, and we just naturally assume that something is a bit cockeyed.
===> once again, get your ass out of the sticks and you see that just because you are a talkin' with the mirror, your dog, and the neighbors a mile down the road does not mean a thing. What's even more sad is you don;t see Hamas blowing up pizza parlors or pedestrian malls. I guess those Jewish kids who don't know their place don;t really count up there in the Cascades, do they?
It takes one shit load of denial to be a Zionist these days, I guess. Some people seem to be able to wash the blood off a bit easier than others.
===> denial, not just a river in Egypt. That pretty face in the mirror that always agrees with everythign you say keeps getting more and more attractive I bet!
Thank you for being so entertaining. You guys are a real scream.
===> And thank you for coming public with your views. But just remember, we have a State, and we have the support of those whose support counts. Have fun pissin' in the wind here on indymedia!
But of course, the second you criticize a Zionist, they come at you with both barrels. A Jewish state, hell, I'm all for it. Just don't steal someone's state while you are at it.
And of course, you bring up the ovens. I lived in Germany as a soldier. I saw the ovens. They may well be one of the most disgusting creations on earth. But it is time for you to quit feeling sorry for yourself, and expecting the rest of the world to as well. Quit using the oven as a means of getting pity, so that your genocidal actions will be ignored. You might just try and follow the example of the Cherokee people. We got slammed with genocide. Didn't even get a memorial building there in WDC. Hell, the African American genocide didn't even rate a memorial building. You don't see us out killing children with tanks. We took our hits, just like everyone else in the world, and we went on. Now there are between 800,000 and 1,000,000 of us. We survived. The Jews will survive. At least I hope they do. The world wouldn't seem right without the Jewish people. Or the Palestinian people. There is room for all of us. And if there isn't, then buy more land, don't kill innocents for it.
You try and make it sound like the poor Zionists are on the defensive. Victims. What a crock of shit that is. You are the offense, and you are murdering people for their land. If you are tired of bombs in your pizza parlors, then quit your genocide. If you were to come to my neighborhood and shoot at my people, I would personally put a bullet in your ass. And I don't blame the Palestinians for doing the same. But you won't come after me and mine, as we would kick your land stealing ass, as would any other country in the world. You happen to have found the weakest most defenseless people in the middle east and you are participating in genocide against them. How noble. Next they will be giving you the peace prize. Just like Kissinger.
Deny Zion a state. You already have a fucking state. What you are doing is trying to steal someone else's state. Palestine hasn't occupied Israel, it's the other way around Mr Denial. Or Jackass. Whichever you prefer.
And of course, since I have shown the audacity to criticize you, I am a full blown anti semite. Anyone who even slightly tries to criticize you is an anti semite. That is the biggest crock of all. Well, the whole world is watching you, and would have done something about your aggression toward the Palestinian people long ago, if not for the backing of the blood stained US govt. How interesting it is that you can only claim one friend on the face of the earth in your genocide of Palestine. The USA plutocrats. What a hoot.
===> Interesting. "Don;t steal someone's state" you say. Who do you think had the land beofre the Arab-Muslim sweep out of the Arabian Peninsula? And please, button up your shirt before your heart falls out, your generous backing of a Jewish state is quite a hoot. Maybe it sahould be on the moon? I guess having our land back that was taken from us 2000 years ago by the Romans is too much to ask. But Cherokee's statute of limitations on self righteous justice doesn;t extend that far.
And of course, you bring up the ovens. I lived in Germany as a soldier. I saw the ovens. They may well be one of the most disgusting creations on earth. But it is time for you to quit feeling sorry for yourself, and expecting the rest of the world to as well. Quit using the oven as a means of getting pity, so that your genocidal actions will be ignored.
===> Nope, nothing to do with self pity, but everythign to do with the fact that we aren;t gonna let it happen again, by any means neccesary
You might just try and follow the example of the Cherokee people. We got slammed with genocide. Didn't even get a memorial building there in WDC. Hell, the African American genocide didn't even rate a memorial building. You don't see us out killing children with tanks. We took our hits, just like everyone else in the world, and we went on. Now there are between 800,000 and 1,000,000 of us. We survived.
===> That's just the thing. I am not gonna give up and be the white man's bitch like you. Your bitterness over the DC holocaust memorial shows here. FWIW I think the native americans and african americans deserve one more. I also find it quite interesting thought you joined the very army that wiped out your people. Like I said, white man's bitch.
The Jews will survive. At least I hope they do. The world wouldn't seem right without the Jewish people.
===> Such a big heart you have!
Or the Palestinian people. There is room for all of us. And if there isn't, then buy more land, don't kill innocents for it.
===> We did buy land. Look up 'Jewish National Fund' and do some reading.
You try and make it sound like the poor Zionists are on the defensive. Victims. What a crock of shit that is. You are the offense, and you are murdering people for their land.
===> Blah blah blah. Here comes Cherokee's fantasy world of needing victims to feel sorry for. The Palis turned down their own state in 1947, and had 19 years to build one until 1967, when the arabs started a war in which they lost the west bank to Israel. 'murdering for their land' pleeze.
If you are tired of bombs in your pizza parlors, then quit your genocide.
===> Speaks for itself. You can try to justify bombing pizza parlors all you want.
If you were to come to my neighborhood and shoot at my people, I would personally put a bullet in your ass. And I don't blame the Palestinians for doing the same.
===> Yee haw bubba. Do you drive around with a shotgun rack in your pick-up?
But you won't come after me and mine, as we would kick your land stealing ass, as would any other country in the world.
===> Are you drinking? This is hilarious. Were you pounding your chest as you typed that. What a tough guy.
You happen to have found the weakest most defenseless people in the middle east and you are participating in genocide against them. How noble. Next they will be giving you the peace prize. Just like Kissinger.
===> Read your history. The Jews didn;t just show up on the doorstep in 1993 and invade.
Deny Zion a state. You already have a fucking state. What you are doing is trying to steal someone else's state. Palestine hasn't occupied Israel, it's the other way around Mr Denial. Or Jackass. Whichever you prefer.
===> Wait a minute, so you are now claiming you are ok with the Jews having a state, and that somehow Israel is trying to *steal* someone else's *state*? Damn, you must be pretty drunk right about now. L'chaim!
And of course, since I have shown the audacity to criticize you, I am a full blown anti semite. Anyone who even slightly tries to criticize you is an anti semite.
===> Nope, I only throw that out in reference to YOUR words. And your hysterical response says more than I ever could.
That is the biggest crock of all. Well, the whole world is watching you, and would have done something about your aggression toward the Palestinian people long ago, if not for the backing of the blood stained US govt. How interesting it is that you can only claim one friend on the face of the earth in your genocide of Palestine. The USA plutocrats. What a hoot.
===> And don' forget that you joined the USA plutocrat's army. The whole world has acknowledged the Jews' right to a state in their historic homeland, but it was the arabs who said "no Jews". Whatever. Have fun up there in Oregon. Your anger for being a sell out hypocrite should be directed at that face in the mirror bitter man, and not at Israel. Cheers!
p.s. - don;t forget to look up the latest poll numbers of americans who support israel!
Where in the hell are the people who take the polls you refer to. We never see them. They never come here to ask our opinion. It is my belief that they choose the individuals for these polls from the republican voter registry. And then the poll of these individuals is offered up as the proof you speak of, by a media which is owned by the weapons manufacturers who sell Israel their tanks, helicopters, and F-16s. Wow, what a tidy little arrangement.
Of course the plutocrats are behind you. They need their little Zionist state for strategic reasons. You are their little Pit Bull, so to speak, there in the middle east. And you call me a bitch. Jackass, when I joined the Army, I was a brainwashed 17 year old kid. Just like the kids you assholes send out as cannon fodder. Just like the kids Arafat sends back at you. I grew up and put war behind me. I promised myself I would never buy the "meme of the day" and kill for a bunch of low life thieves like the US govt. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't fight to keep real estate thieves out of my county. And the Palestinains should continue their fight as well. They will win. Because they are in the right.
I would support a unified Israeli-Palistinian state if it looked like ANYONE over there wanted it. But they don't. There's too much bitterness, too many attorcities on each side. Palestinians, from what I can tell, want one of two things, their own separate state in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, or the destruction of Israel. We should support the liberation of the Palestinians on their THEIR terms, not OURs.
Zionism is not genocide. It is a yearning for a homeland and the security and a home one can call one's own. What it IS is a flawed ideology, which fails to take into account the existence of an indigenous population in the new homeland. Zionists don't want genocide, but when the right wing of the Zionist movement took over, the implementation of the Zionist idea became oppresive. I am not a Zionist, but I don't think being a Zionist is any more evil than being a Palestinian nationalist. I don't really support either mindset, both are destructive to human life and human solidarity.
It's really depressing to read how people talk about this issue in the US.
It is comforting to know that some people out there think beyond the typical "Palestinians are all killers" and "Zionism=racism" crap out there.
It is indeed true that the Palestinian people have suffered at the hands of both the Jordanian government *and* the Jabotinsky wing of the Zionism movement.
That said, it is also true that Zionists purchased the majority of the land in what is now Israel from Ottoman and Lebanese landowners at the turn of the century.
This came about because the Palestinian people, during that time period, were essentially nomadic, and did not have a traditional view of property rights. When the Ottoman empire began to impose land taxes on its citizens, Palestinians agreed to "sell" their lands to Turks and Lebanese in return for being able to use the land without restriction.
Here lies the underlying problem. Two groups of people have what can be rationally considered legitimate claims to Israel. Unfortunately, the UN partition plan was rejected by the Palestinians (who were heavily influenced by the Arab power brokers at the time), in effect leaving two decidedly un-Palestinian countries, one a Jewish homeland and the other an Arab dictatorship with Palestinian subjects.
Unfortunately (again), the Israeli public has been persuaded to believe in an almost religious right to greater Israel by the ultra-right, while the Palestinians have been told by their Arab manipulators that they have a religious right to all of what is now Israel.
In my view, it is entirely too late for either of these ideologies to succeed. Israel is here to stay, and the Palestinian people must unshackle themselves from their Arab masters.
Overthrowing the Jordanian government would give the Palestinians a homeland, of course. More likely, though, will be another war between the Arab world and Israel, the probable result of which will result in another Israeli victory tempered by the international community, ultimately resulting in a (much smaller than Jordan) Palestinian state.
It is obvious to me that what is needed is a complete new slate. All past lies, agreements and bullshit treaties need to be tossed and a new path chosen. Of course, this needs to be backed by the international community, excluding the USA. The USA needs to abstain from the proceedings, because they cannot be trusted to deal fairly.
We need an international peace keeping force in Israel and Palestine. Both countries need to be stripped of their weapons. Both sides. And they should be forced to sit down and hammer out an agreement that is fair for both sides. And not with the USA having the final say to trump the proceedings, as they do in the UN every time that body attempts to do something about the problem.
You can go on and on all week long about past agreements and ancient claims to land, but you happen to be standing knee deep in innocent blood as the debate and the war continues. All of your references to the past are hollow and worthless in light of todays situation. You spit out past agreements as if that is going to have the slightest effect on the tragedy that's going to take place today, because today more people are going to die today. This very day. What is needed is for the world to step in and force you all to get it worked out. And then they most likely need to stick around to insure the peace.
There has been far too many people killed, by both sides. There have been far to many atrocities, by both sides. Neither side have leaders with the ability to end it. Arafat is a shit bird, murdering terrorist, as are the Zionist leaders. They all need to be sacked, and the world needs to appoint leadership that is not entrenched in this evil ideology. Outsiders who have nothing to gain, need to step in and run things until both countries decide to give up the killing and be good kiddies.
I fully believe the Palestinians will eventually shake Israel and Arafat. They are in the right, for the better part, and my vote is for a Palestinian, as well as Zionist state. Both devided and protected. A bunch of dusty old papers and references to ancient migrations and negotiations are nothing but wasted air, by individuals who could care less about a fair end to this blood bath.
If they gave a damn, they would be talking about the future instead of the past. The past is what led to the present situation. Obviously, reference to it does absolutely no good in settling todays problems. All it does is keep people devided.
I'm all for stopping bloodshed. I'm all for international peacekeepers and a Palestinian state. I'm all for wiping the slate clean.
The reality on the ground is that none of that is going to happen. There is too much history, too much bad blood, too many radical opinions on both sides. I applaud your idealism, but it ain't practical.
And forget about international peacekeepers. They would be sitting ducks by every small radical faction in the West Bank who is trying to make a name for themselves. Besides, the EU hasn't exactly shaken off its tendency to pull a Neville Chamberlain when it matters.
If you view war as an extension of politics (and I do, even though I don't like it in the least), sometimes war is not only a necessary option, but a healthy one. It wipes the slate clean. It forces people to look at and fix the problems that exist on the ground. It sucks, but its true.
What I'm looking for is the path that will make both sides satisfied with the least amount of bloodshed and material damage in the least amount of time.
Now you are just trying to bait me into a fight. You couldn't be sane and utter a statement like that. Surely you are poking fun at the debate process. Positive population checks with tanks??? Get the pesky Palies out of the way for expedience sake??? As a convenience??? Are you saying war is good because it gets rid of the lesser peoples??? Is that genocide??? Or are you saying that war is inevitable, so lets get as filthy as we can, as quick as we can, so we don't drag this thing out??? And may the person with the most US tanks win.
Blah blah blah, my friend, you are just trying to be funny. You don't mean that. I don't believe that a person who shows your willingness to debate and work things out through dialog, would be willing to put a pistol to a Palestinian child's head and cap him. For god and country??? Fuck me if one square foot of that worthless sand pit is worth the life of one innocent child. As far as I'm concerned, when you kill an innocent, your goal has ceased to be justifiable. You have resorted to 100 million year old, base human, near reptilian urges in your quest for real estate, you have set us all back.
You are a tricky guy. Trying to get me to cuss at you. But I won't. I think you are most likely a good person who is a bit torn and pissed over the whole gig. Just like everyone else. The first thing they do in the play ground when a fight starts is separate the children involved in the fighting. A first grade teacher from my daughters elementary school is more qualified to put an end to the middle east crisis than those presently employed in the venture. But then, if they had listened to their first grade teachers in the first place, none of it would be going on. Those simple playground rules apply for a lifetime, and in all occasions.