Marxist has-beens take over San Francisco IMC home page coverage of WEF.

"Illogical Wordsmith", you are suffering from the same or related problem. Why do you assume that everybody who berates "capitalism","imperialism", or "colonialism" is necessarily ANY sort of Marxist let alone a "Trot" (or any other sort of "Communist").

I bet you imagine "liberals" are some dort of "leftists" too!

Somebody opposing "colonialism", "imperialism", and even "capitalism" (see note) could even be a "individualist anarchist", about as far away from "communist" as you can get.

note: When you think of "individualist anarchists" as being pro-capitalist, that may not mean anything even vaguely resembling what goes by the name Capitalist (ie: with the COLLECTIVE OWNERSHIP represented by corporations, "limited liability" of corporations, etc.)

We have a similar thing going on with belgium.indymedia.com. They are dominated by a Stalinist party. But it is not really a problem as (almost) everybody knows.

Hi Hans,

Please explain further...?
There are different kind of people working with Indymedia Belgium. People from communist groups are posting too on the belgian IMC, as you know.
I am working a lot with Indymedia Belgium and I can asure you, I do not take part of a stalinist group.

Besides, the attack against IMC San Fransisco is not because they are communist, but because they are anti-capitalists.

Hans
Het is niet omdat er mensen van de PVDA posten, dat het een PVDA website is.. Iedereen kan posten.
Toch bedankt voor het vetrouwen.
Hans.. van de NAR toch niet?

Now take your time and read this very carefully. Sound out the words if necessary.

IMC includes activsts who are anarchists, Marxists, libetarian socialists, revolutionary democrats, greens, assorted progressives in a variety of shapes, colors and flavors, single issue activists, writers, web techs, photogs, videographers, artists, cultural workers, radio activists. It was designed to be a democratic participatory alternative to the corporate ( and yes, Frodo, that means the capitalist ) press.

Our resistance is as global as capital

That was on the banner of the first indymedia sites.

Well,....

This artickle is an attac on the nature of indymedia.

The author is "using" our problems with Marx and commies but in fact he that is not what he means.

He means that we should not be anti-capitalist.

We have seen the same kind of attacs in Belgium.

The Belgium IMC has as a mission statement : "Giving a voice to those who are opposing capitalist globalisation."

We mainly give a voice to grass roots activists,... but we also give a voice to people from NGO's, trade unions, ...

People who want to silence us say we are Communists, Marxists, Stalinists, ....
Some say we are Black Block, Anarchists,...

It depends in the flavour of the author ;-))

What they mean is : "How do you dare to question capitalism", as the author is doing.

Read Chomsky: "a propaganda model", part 5 : anti communism

The original poster is correct. If progressives can't come up with new language different from that identified with reviled communism, then we are losing more people than could possibly be gained by appeasing the ever-shrinking number of Marxists.

Anti-corporatism is a word becoming more popular. Here is a web page of anti-corporatism quotes:
http://corporatism.tripod.com/corporatism.htm

And here is a web page with many progressive ways to get economic justice. Without failed Marxist language and dogma:

Ideology, Idiot-ology.
http://corporatism.tripod.com/ideology.htm

The last thing progressives need is an "anti-capitalist convergence." That is just a sneaky way for Marxists to attach themselves to anarchists. Anarchists don't need Marxists or Marxism. Anarchists are far more popular, far more varied in their thinking, and far less ideological than Marxists. Let's keep it that way.

you people are idiots, from wordsmith on. if you think the words 'capitalism' and 'imperialism' arent cool enough, get the fuck out of here! this is world revolution we are talking about, not a way to impress your coffee house friends. talk to any anarchist anywhere in the world besides lifestyle anarchy USA and you will understand the capitalist imperialism is the problem in the world. anarchism begins with a marxist analogy, get some history, you ignorant, born-and-raised-on-TV jackasses!!

The difference is http://WWW.Indymedia.ORG is written by LIBERALS. The SF.Indymedia.ORG site is written by anarchists. Do you really think Marxists or any other Stalinoid group would give top billiing to a "revolutionary anarchist mobilization"??? You people's political analysis needs a LOT of work if you think that the words capitalist or imperialist imply some kind of 20th-century marxism. Anarchism is not soccer in the park and sitting around playing video games, you ignorant fucks!!

I am from Brazil and I am anarchist. How funny it is to see American "anarchist" afraid to say colonialism or afriad to say imperialiism even though that is what is happening in the world, As words they do not belong to the Marxians and as concepts they are as real as your shoes are cheap.

You American lifestylists do not want to talk about imperialism or colonialism because it is FOR you not against you. If you want radical change you must say things that your own white Americans will not like to hear.

And you should also find out what Trotsky means and what Marx means before you go posting, the person here obviously does not know what it mean.

'To the original poster: We have had our share of "progressives" who cannot take a stand on anything because they are comfortable in their American, non-profit lifestyle. Replace "capitalist" with "corporate" --- real specific.

If you think that the difference between Marxists and Anarchists can be summed up in a difference in semantics, then we have a lot of problems as a movement.

Here's the scoop:
Anarchists, Marxists, Socialists, Zapatistas, Trotskyists, etc are all against colonialism, neoliberalism, imperialism and capitalism.

Lifestyle anarchists, "progressives," and liberals are against using any word which might make them feel uncomfortable, and they are mostly reformists who don't really want to push forward social struggle, just make it a little more left than where it is now. Tweak it, so to speak.

The problem with the movement is not anarchists. The problem is middle-of-the-road progressives who will not take a stand on anything (besides Nader), and who try to manage and control dissent. Please try to have a more defendable political analysis before posting here.

I periodically view many of the indymedia sites, and in general I find the quality and content of the SF Indymedia Center to be of the highest quality in the network. For instance, during the demonstrations outside the summit of the Americas in Quebec, SF IMC had the best english language coverage, far superior to the Worldwide IMC. (The Quebec IMC, CMAQ, had equally good coverage, but it was mostly in French)

One thing that continues to make IMC a model for the new, non-corporate journalism is that ANYONE, left, right, or center, can post to the service. Furthermore, despite the rantings of the original post, ANYONE can join the collective and become a part of the decision making process.

Given the open, non-hierarchical structure of the IMC, it seems that posts such as these are really just attempts by right-wing zealots to discredit the hard work of those who make the IMC possible. To these zealots, I can offer two options:

1) Start your own open non-corporate journalism outlet.
2) Get involved in the decision making process.

Complaining will get you nowhere.

good lord, wow, never seen so many explanations of "TYPES" of anarchists, trots, bolsheviks, socialists (oh god damn those), liberals, progressives, etc., etc., as on this page.

the SF IMC is very anarchist & white, but one thing i've noticed is that it at least tries and constantly intends to go beyond very anarchist and white postings and news.
so the WEF coverage is pretty biased, big deal! if you're not gonna get involved, don't fuck with it. til then, you can leave feedback. look closely at who the WEF affects the most, the poor and oppressed, and you'll see the choice of words on the frontpage resemble exactly how they feel. for that i have no problem with the choice of words, we just gotta make sure that IMC's do not become ultra-radical rant playgrounds for a few and that we don't go so far as to alienate the mainstream, non-radical audience (think organizing here!!).

i personally am still trying to understand all these SF Bay anarchists, but one thing you can count on is that they won't become dictators. even at times when it's very apparent to me and my community organizing how much white supremacy plays itself out amongst anarchists, they're usually down with every flavor of radical activism you can think of!
in da struggle,
M

Workers' power is what we need,
Time to get rid of the capitalist greed.
Fossilized decay is the old capitalist way,
We are fighting for socialism today!
Victory, victory is our cry,
The class struggle is the reason why.

The Red Smear does not work anymore so knock it off. Capitalism is incapable of solving any problems and in fact makes things worse. All it has to offer today is war and poverty. The only hope for humanity is socialism, for we are faced with the choice of barbarism or socialism. The workingclass is fighting back all around the world because we are faced with the choice, fight or starve. These protests at the capitalist World Economic Forum are part of that fight back. They are not all of it, of course. From labor organizing, to street theater, petitions to campaigns for political office and ballot initiatives, mass marches and small rallies for peace, jobs and justice, all forum are part of the fight back. In this increasingly fascist society, with its ever-increasing poverty so that the rich can get richer from their war profiteering, the workingclass has literally nothing to lose but our chains.

Communist, nazi, street gang. Their all the same. They are bloodthirty thugs intent on raping and stealing without any thought of morality.

Communism, of course, has killed well over 75 million people last century, and has the full faith and backing of academia.

"You can count the number of Marxists in SF IMC leadership by the number of times you count the words "capitalist," "imperialism," "colonialism," etc"

----

These guys must be Das Krapitalistic Maxists, too. They use them words a lot, by golly.


"Suddenly, serious people are rethinking an old idea that's time has come again: colonialism."


Raise the flag on a new American empire


(Mr. Jonah Goldberg's wife works for Ashcroft, BTW)

I think the word childish is a good one for many so called anarchists… for we are all created in the image of our capitalist society, and it is hardly surprising that we do reflect it in all it’s stupidities… The only way to escape in any meaningful way is to do some seruase thinking (try opening some dusty books) and some foolish actions –try getting involved in creating a genuine open society – like indymedia.

Have just been doing the rounds of all the alt-world meetings in Europe – came away with a certain despair at the childishness and a certain delight at the creativity –

Maybe they are one the liberal in me says

The socialist cry’s out for more responsibility and structure

The fool desires to stay in bed

The capitalist realises the need to pay my way

And the anarchist enjoys it all in its small way.

Hamish XXX

to Lisa:

sorry to see you have such a dislike for communists/marxists/etc. but as for your numbers, do some more analysis in your "academia". you'll see that those killed strictly for being leftists/communists far outnumbered those that communist-like forces/regimes ever killed for being anti- or non-communist.

for example, people often make the mistake of contributing the Chinese and N. Korean famines during the last century to communism (regardless of inhumane economic sanctions and fundings for bloody insurgency imposed by capitalist regimes). millions of people died in these, but, to cut a long discussion short, they hardly number the many millions more that died in famines (and similar situations) with capitalist (definitely not communist or leftist) regimes in power who never did a thing to help these people (i.e., pre-communist China).

the nazis slaughtered well over 30 million communist russians and soviets. the imperial japanese mercilessly butchered and anthraxed at least another 12 million communist peasants (because the capitalist class didn't do any fighting). 42 million butchered and slaughtered solely for their pro-communist/revolution stance. all this over a span of about 5 years in the last century. had the nazis and imperial japanese forces won, they had virtually planned to enslave those left. millions more in Korea, Indochina, Africa, Latin America, etc., died before and after WWII. please don't ever consider nazis the same as communists.

if you're gonna play the number game to cut an ideological debate short, at least do some more research for the sake of all the innocent men, women, and children who've been massacred solely for their political affiliations in the 20th century.

not a communist (but might get killed one day for being in the resistance),
M

right on nessie, however that's beyond the point i was intending to make. not that i'm saying "you're with us or you're with them", but in the examples i cited, realistically and historically under the circumtances of war (between the burgoeise and the proletariats) this is a perfect dichotomy.

>"Communism," as we know it, ie, bolshevism, IS capitalism. It's just state momopoly capitalism

though i wont deny the strong similiarities... Cuban Communism isn't very Bolshevik, nor is Chinese or Vietnamese from what I've heard/learned.

and i don't intend to sound like some capitalist economics thug, but really, state monopoly capitalism = socialism just as anarchist society would bear fruit to more individualist/smaller capitalism, but i wouldn't go as far as calling them Nazi SA "brown jackets" (or whatever they were called).

para la paz!