War Crime: Bombing Afghan Jail

However, that applies to prisoners. When they take up arms again, they return to the status of combatants and are thus legitimate military targets.

prisoners are prisoners whether they are rioting or not. whatever, who cares? the u.s. is allowed to get away with war crimes. idiots like the last poster make excuses and frankly just dont care, unless it is the enemy committing warcrimes.

riotting is different from armed rebellion.

also, don't think of this purely in terms of a domestic jail.

this was obviously in a war environment, and the prisoners were Prisoners of War, protected under by the geneva conventions.

however, in addition to granting prisoners rights the geneva conventions also demand certain behaviors and actions.

for example, in order to enjoy your geneva rights prisoners have to remain exactly that, prisoners. they must remain noncombatants.

the moment they take up arms they are no longer prisoners, but rather soldiers.

thus, the killing of the former prisoners in mazir-el-shariff isn't a war crime.

lordy lordy lordy what farsical psychotic angles some of you try to work.
"well yes they were firing at us and shooting missiles at us but we stood our ground with bedding and food to help them rest and strengthen up to fight and kill us better."
its obvious you kids love spinning in circles untill your so dizzy and disoriented you feel like puking.
just wait untill after you develop life dedicating opinions to do this. if youve done your crazy high vomit spin and can still feel the nausea, wait till youve had a good sober nights sleep before you go commiting to opinions and beliefs.

you talk about spinning, in a spin
keep off IMC, you're a nobody to us

and yes the attacks are war crimes

It's good to have on this site dannyboy with his unadorned blood lust and jonboy with his rationalistic dissembling lest we forget why oh why america is hated.

They personify the two sides of the american coin of self-righteous thuggery.

Dannyboy: "I'm just a simple man who eagerly believes whatever my boss and brit hume tell me. And if you disagree, I own a gun."

Jon: "I was in the college republicans and it was during that time that i learned everything there is to know about how dannyboy's cousins should treat prisoners of war. dannyboy and his family are idiots, but they're our idiots, and that oil belongs to my SUV."

"I'm just a simple man who eagerly believes whatever my boss and brit hume tell me. And if you disagree, I own a gun."
Who is brit hume ?
I own a gun ?
Aaron you are cute the way talk to me.
?. Nope. Not leaving. Na na na na na. This is America. I'm not sure but I think you guys have to form a club or something to keep me out. Or just have the owner operator of the board contact me at
cavedan [at] danworld.com
to tell me to stop posting here and I will. As far as I know I am not tresspassing or breaking any rules.

you can tell when you've made a great point when other people can't actually respond to the substance of your arguments.

so, pray tell, how does the bombing of the afghan jail amount to a warcrime if it wasn't against the geneva conventions, which by definition determines what can and cannot be considered a warcrime?

Well, of course it was a war crime - the US did it! Never mind that the Taliban tortures and executes prisoners (civilian and military). They brought stability to the region and kept their women safe at home.

This is just more from the "I'll-blame-America-for everything-'cause-it's-cool-but-don't-want-to-leave-because-XBox-games-are hard-to get-everywhere-else..." crowd, who even complained about the humanitarian food drops "not meeting the nutritional requirements" of the Afghan people. Here's news for you guys - they were starving to the point where they were EATING FUCKING LOCUSTS - I'm pretty sure those didn't meet their nutritional requirements either...

It doesn't matter what we do - if we were to fund the economic recovery of every 3rd world nation on this Earth - this board would STILL be full of people bashing the US - "Oh, the evil-empire US funded textile plants in this country, when they are more suited to ceramics - will the atrocities never end!"

As opposed to jon and pooky's general outlook, which is that the US can do no wrong. And then when we get hit again, people will blubber, "but why do they hate *us*???"

You can sit on this board all day long with your smarmy defense of murder, exploitation and imperialism. But that doesnt change the perspective of the billions in the world not influenced by CNN-style reporting and ignorant patriotism.

The US Government is the biggest drug dealer and biggest weapons dealer in the world. Did you think that business is run by the Boy Scouts? Idiots...

Well, talk about the "Fascism of the Left". Don't tell people to stay off IMC, moron.

I've never stated that the US can do no wrong, and I'm not defending murder - don't put words in my mouth. That seems to happen alot around here - I disagree with someone and suddenly I'm a 'Nazi' or 'fascist'...

Some of the things the US has done wrong: Vietnam - we didn't need to be there, and not one American life was worth that entire country; SOA - it's practices are contrary to just about everything the US stands for and tarnishes our image; Support of dictators around the world - no excuses, this is just fucked up. Happy now?

Having said that - the US has done alot more good than bad (in my opinion...Then again, I'm an 'idiot', right?). We are one of the major contributors to worldwide charity - our scientists and doctors have developed cures for many horrible diseases, we have defeated brutal and inhumane world powers (i.e. - Axis powers, WWII), and provided a safe haven for immigrants of all colors, races and religions...

Of course - I'm just one of the idiotic flag-waving masses, so don't listen to me. Just go ahead and spout off more unchallenged rhetoric whilst surrounded by your fellow (tired) rhetoric spouting comrades - as you don't like to hear any other side than your own anyway - and your arguments are untenable...

Nessie,

That's been tried before. It's called communism-- and boy does that system work wonders for the progress of mankind!

I wouldnt' speak for the 3rd world...they do need charity, and they accept a hell of a lot of it willingly.

your little comment about Vietnam not being worth one american life is a strangely callous way of saying that maybe the US shouldn't have killed 3,000,000 Vietnamese (in order to enforce US corporate interests in southeast asia, it should be added).

As to the celebrated good deeds of the US to the so-called developing world: The US in fact spends a tiny percentage of its GNP on non-military foreign aid. According to the United Nations, developing countries send developed countries ten times as much money through unequal trade and financial relations as they receive through foreign aid. The Third World pays billions of dollars just interest on usurious loans to international banks based in the "developed world".
As to the exceedingly finite actual good deeds of the US: it's interesting that conservatives so frequently point to US charity abroad to justify the present killing spree when typically they are apt to denounce these instances of generosity, paltry as they are, as "socialist" or "liberal" or some other nonsense.

As to my previous post about dan and jon: sure, I was being a bit off-topic. Just having a little fun, sorry. Danny you commented proudly on your love for guns, so I'm surprised to hear you don't own one or five.
As to the slaughter: did you hear how the US went in and bombed everything in sight including a whole mess of Northern Alliance fighters? All I can say is some of y'all pro-war types seem like you'll countenance any and all brutality so long as it emanates from the US. Methinks this gung-ho, "the US is always right because it's the US" world-view will only further inflame sentiment against America down the road, laying the basis for more terrorism directed at american citizens.

The 11/28/01 article from the World Socialist Website gives an update on the war crimes committed by the United States in the massacre of 800 people in a jail in Afghanistan a few days ago. This article is at:
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/nov2001/afgh-n28.shtml
The story covers the fact that the CIA was inside the prison, "interrogating" prisoners, thus provoking them, and gives the full ramifications of the application of international law in regard to this obvious war crime by the USA. The CIA is to the USA what the Gestapo was to Nazi Germany. If you think I am not using the right words, I am just trying to be polite.
KPFA's evening news of 11/28/01 (94.1 FM) stated that human rights investigators found some 50 dead prisoners whose hands were tied behind their backs.

Nessie:
I agree that the former Soviet Union can best be described as state capitalist (or perhaps even more precisely: police-state capitalism). The state extended waged-labor and acted as a substitute capitalist class, the proceeds being dispensed largely according to ones position within the "Communist Party" via bigger wages, perks, and outright graft as opposed to through money profits as is the case under market capitalism (with all of it's attendant corruption and deceit!).
However, what baffles me is when you say 'Act 2: 44-46'. You've typed that in before. What the hell are you saying? No comprendo!

a minority of prisoners had their hands bound.

this doesn't prove squat.

the claim right now is that a grenade went off in close quarters. in this ensuing chaos such deaths are completely understandable, and their deaths are totally consistent with the current claims of the Dept of Defense.

the fact remains that these prisoners took up arms against their captors, therefore forefeiting their geneva rights as prisoners of war.


another nessie noncomment:
--------------
What can and cannot be considered a warcrime, and what the punishment shall be, is defined by whoever wins the war
-------------------------

except when it is written down clearly in int'l law, as is the Geneva Convetion.



---------------------
The US in fact spends a tiny percentage of its GNP on non-military foreign aid
--------------------

as does literally every other country in the world. the scandanivanians contribute the most, something like .7% i think. however, they also benefit from having massive oil reserves, a homogenous society, and the ability to free-ride off of NATO for their own security.


--------------------
According to the United Nations, developing countries send developed countries ten times as much money through unequal trade and financial relations as they receive through foreign aid.
----------------------

an unfortunate consequences of western protectionism and our unwillingness to allow for free and therefore fair trade between the first and third world. glad to see that you're finally seeing the benefits of neoliberalism



----------------
The Third World pays billions of dollars just interest on usurious loans to international banks based in the "developed world".
---------------------

gasp!
maybe they shouldn't have borrowed it in the first place. gawd, you're probably going to be one of those people who spend all their time whining about their mortgage.


oh, and to all you "communists".
if you can figure out how to:
1) determine prices (or relative value) for goods and services
2) promote work incentive
3) promote investment and innovation incentives

then your system might work.
as yet however, 120 years of marxist thinkers have been incapable of coming up with solutions to any of these three lethal problems.

Anti-capitalists who criticize so-called free trade don't do so on behalf of protectionism. Nafta, WTO, FTAA etc etc are the attempts of the ruling multinational corporations and banks to codify a set of rules that bring down all barriers to capital mobility -- not just tarrifs and taxes -- but also regulations to protect eco-systems, basic workers rights, communal land holdings... Per se, I have no problem with lowering import tarrifs, I'll leave that to domestic capitalist concerns, myopic unions and US farmers. However, unlike jon, I have no illusions that ending protectionist policies will make much of a dent in the iniquities between states or peoples. The move toward a more globalized marketplace, indeed, is increasing inequalities worldwide because it is being administered by and for those already in the saddle.

Don't have time to adequately address jon's fallacious analogy between a whiny mortgage holder and those millions that are forced to pay for usurious practises of the international banks through reductions in public health, education, wholesale privatizations etc etc that are agreed to and administered by the banker's puppets (who unlike the mortgage holder, often benefit in the process and certainly aren't forced to sacrifice).
I also would like to address jon's objections to non-capitalist modes of production, exchange and social relations but no time now. Perhaps someone else could pick that one up.

The following link is about the former chief economist of the World Bank who was far less sanguine about the real-world effects of global capitalism than jon, and was fired for his criticisms.
http://www.zmag.org/ParEcon/palastimf.htm

aaron: will free trade and capitalism increase inequality in the world? yes.

capitalism unfortunately has few built-in mechanisms for wealth creation. it does however excelt at generating prosperity. thus, one must ask the question, is inequality bad if everyone is getting richer? is it bad if one person gets richer at a rate of growth of 10% a year while another only grows at 1%?

one could make the argument that everyone growing at 5.5% would be the ideal, however the simple fact is that if such redistribution was mandated there wouldn't even be that 11% growth in the first place.

as for mr. stiglitz, indeed one of the world's premier economists. what is interesting to note is that he does not condemn the concept of globalization, liberal trade, or capitalism. he is a reformer, plain and simple, and accepts the overarching paradigm of capitalist free trade, w/ cosmetic modifications.

as for his criticism of the IMF/WB. everyone criticizes them. it is quite fashionable, even among academic circles. to say that they need policy overhauls is not to also criticize their overall principles and goals.

Pooky said:
"We are one of the major contributors to worldwide charity"

And yet starvation and murder and exploitation continue to go on. Because charity is not designed to end any of these things. Charity is positive for those in charge because it makes Americans think that we are doing something good, and the foreign aid can be used as a bribe to a 3rd world client state, who will inevitably spend it on riot gear and security and weapons to defend against national enemies as well as dissent from within. It is time that we all look past guilty-solving charity and begin to address the root of these problems, because they keep getting worse, not better.

"spout off more unchallenged rhetoric"

Whatever points you got in my book for calling people out on the name-calling, you lost when you said this (essentially more name-calling). I really don't think what is here is unchallenged rhetoric, especially considering how many "mainstream" folks have come by since Sept 11.

Sorry, Jon, not getting off that easy.

"the fact remains that these prisoners took up arms against their captors, therefore forefeiting their geneva rights as prisoners of war."

Can you explain how people can take up arms if their arms are tied behind their back? The answer is they can't. Two hundred and fifty individual lives.

For instance, if a neighborhood has a high population of drug dealers who are taking up arms, is the solution to bomb the entire neighborhood, killing people innocent or guilty? Of course not. (I should add that US police have down this before, though)

As Nessie points out, do you want to volunteer for a CIA-style investigation in a wartorn prison? I doubt it would take you that long until you decide to escape as well if you could.

I must point out that this callous discussion of 250 individual lives is happening within the context of the worst racism and nationalism. There should be no argument that 250 individual lives are worth more than the CIA's desire to not have any more problems at the prison. It is worth more than oil. It is worth more than revenge. And it is a war crime.