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Feast your eyes. PROOF about ISO plans to silence people this weekend
check this out
So last night I decided to take a trip to the Berkeley Stop The War Coalition site, they are the ones that coordinated and organized this weekends conference that turned into ISO stalking fest and a "shut the fuck up if you are anarchist communist" fest.
So look what I found on the discussion page, this guy
Chric C is one of the main organizers, part of the Coordinating Committee who is in Charge of the conference, this guy who was all over the place and did pelnty of things, and this is what he said, I'll quote the entire thing. but if you want to check it out for yourself, this is what you do
go to: http://www.berkeleystopthewar.org/
double click on DISCUSSION
Scroll down and click on Chric C message titled "Expound on our problems"
We are the "problems" and look at how describes and goes into detail about how we should be "excluded" please pay attention to how this ISO memebers goes about talking and using "community involvment" as a tool to basically say the ISO needs to be involved and have more say. Also note how he is asking for more outreach to new people, but goes on calling them "newbies" and talking about them in such a disrespectful way by saying "It takes too long for new members to figure out what the coalition is, how meetings work, and how they can fit in" WTF is going on people? WTF? we want new people in this movement but we talk about them like this? like they are too stupid to know what's going on so they have to be TOLD what's going on?
here is the quote:
"Hopefully this will get some discussion going on the list.
We can probably all agree that as a coalition we are going to be a miserable failure if we do not manage to (a) bring in new members and (b) retain significantly more people than we lose.
I can see two areas in which I think we need improvement and I'd like to know what you all think along these lines. I'm trying to get something together for the Coordinating Committee meeting but I'd like to get input from other people.
1) Structure and Democracy
It takes too long for new members to figure out what the coalition is, how meetings work, and how they can fit in. And once newbies figure the 'structure' out, they quickly realize that rather than improving our structural problems, we have adopted a process by which important decisions are made (speakers, message, outreach, moderation) at a level that largely excludes people that werent part of this thing from the beginning, when it was still an anti-globalization coalition.
2) Image and Debate
The image we project, at least the way we are perceived, sucks. We dont discuss our message, and how to tailor it to reach different audiences. Part of the problem is that all of our arguments against the war are made from a very familiar viewpoint, to the exclusion of many other kinds of arguments that could be made. This has the effect of equating (in the minds of much of our target audience)
being part of our movement with being comfortable with the language and politics of anti-globalization and socialist movements.
Personally, I think that the only way this movement is going to be successful is to reach out to the large majority of our community that is not a part of this coalition, and actually allow them to take leadership roles in the coalition. If we are going to be successful
as a democracy, then we are going to have to accept that the politics and opinions of our ENTIRE community are going to carry weight in our coalition. Thus far, I dont think that alternative viewpoints (alternative to the core groups in the coalition - SJP, ISO, LT) are
being represented, or even respected.
Anyone care to respond?
-Chris"
So look what I found on the discussion page, this guy
Chric C is one of the main organizers, part of the Coordinating Committee who is in Charge of the conference, this guy who was all over the place and did pelnty of things, and this is what he said, I'll quote the entire thing. but if you want to check it out for yourself, this is what you do
go to: http://www.berkeleystopthewar.org/
double click on DISCUSSION
Scroll down and click on Chric C message titled "Expound on our problems"
We are the "problems" and look at how describes and goes into detail about how we should be "excluded" please pay attention to how this ISO memebers goes about talking and using "community involvment" as a tool to basically say the ISO needs to be involved and have more say. Also note how he is asking for more outreach to new people, but goes on calling them "newbies" and talking about them in such a disrespectful way by saying "It takes too long for new members to figure out what the coalition is, how meetings work, and how they can fit in" WTF is going on people? WTF? we want new people in this movement but we talk about them like this? like they are too stupid to know what's going on so they have to be TOLD what's going on?
here is the quote:
"Hopefully this will get some discussion going on the list.
We can probably all agree that as a coalition we are going to be a miserable failure if we do not manage to (a) bring in new members and (b) retain significantly more people than we lose.
I can see two areas in which I think we need improvement and I'd like to know what you all think along these lines. I'm trying to get something together for the Coordinating Committee meeting but I'd like to get input from other people.
1) Structure and Democracy
It takes too long for new members to figure out what the coalition is, how meetings work, and how they can fit in. And once newbies figure the 'structure' out, they quickly realize that rather than improving our structural problems, we have adopted a process by which important decisions are made (speakers, message, outreach, moderation) at a level that largely excludes people that werent part of this thing from the beginning, when it was still an anti-globalization coalition.
2) Image and Debate
The image we project, at least the way we are perceived, sucks. We dont discuss our message, and how to tailor it to reach different audiences. Part of the problem is that all of our arguments against the war are made from a very familiar viewpoint, to the exclusion of many other kinds of arguments that could be made. This has the effect of equating (in the minds of much of our target audience)
being part of our movement with being comfortable with the language and politics of anti-globalization and socialist movements.
Personally, I think that the only way this movement is going to be successful is to reach out to the large majority of our community that is not a part of this coalition, and actually allow them to take leadership roles in the coalition. If we are going to be successful
as a democracy, then we are going to have to accept that the politics and opinions of our ENTIRE community are going to carry weight in our coalition. Thus far, I dont think that alternative viewpoints (alternative to the core groups in the coalition - SJP, ISO, LT) are
being represented, or even respected.
Anyone care to respond?
-Chris"
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Were trying also, we are doing outreach and wanting to get people invovled. but were not forcing a soicalist point of view on everyone at the conference. We are treating people equals, if they have been involved from the first day or just became involved. you don't make people feel stupid by putting them down because they are new to the movement. You don't empower people by telling them what to do.
It's the whole fucking white mentality you Americans have. Im middle eastern and for some reason you think that you can tell us how to organize, and you know what's best for us, that you guys know the issues regarding our country, and what needs to happen there. Why don't you people ever learn your lesson? Stop telling us how to organize, stop walking away from us and not organize with us, just because we don't do what you want and want to be involved in the decision making process.
It's not white people who are being kicked off planes, being bombed, being shot at, being beaten, being attacked, being put in jail. It's MY PEOPLE! so please sit your white priviledged rich ass down, stop telling us about class war, stop telling us how bad the US is because WE KNOW ALREADY, WE ARE THE ONES THAT HAVE TO LIVE IT EVERYDAY, and instead of just saying "oh middle eastern people are scared, and don't want to be invovled" realize WHY they are not invovled in YOUR WHITE ANTI WAR MOVEMENT, it's beacuse NONE of you listen, you don't care about how we feel, you don't care that we feel left out. You keep making excuses to why you do it, just like your damn idiot WHITE Presdident who gives lip service to us. Guess what even your President went to a mosque and talked out of a mosque and said he loved Islam and Muslims in this country and thinks that they should be invovled in our country. did he actually mean it? do you actually mean. As I squint my eyes and try to take a closer look I realize that the two faces, that being this country and that of the white ISO run anti war movement are blurring together much more, the faces are actually starting to look like. Anything will be said at any cost to gain political momentum. ANYTHING.
It's the whole fucking white mentality you Americans have. Im middle eastern and for some reason you think that you can tell us how to organize, and you know what's best for us, that you guys know the issues regarding our country, and what needs to happen there. Why don't you people ever learn your lesson? Stop telling us how to organize, stop walking away from us and not organize with us, just because we don't do what you want and want to be involved in the decision making process.
It's not white people who are being kicked off planes, being bombed, being shot at, being beaten, being attacked, being put in jail. It's MY PEOPLE! so please sit your white priviledged rich ass down, stop telling us about class war, stop telling us how bad the US is because WE KNOW ALREADY, WE ARE THE ONES THAT HAVE TO LIVE IT EVERYDAY, and instead of just saying "oh middle eastern people are scared, and don't want to be invovled" realize WHY they are not invovled in YOUR WHITE ANTI WAR MOVEMENT, it's beacuse NONE of you listen, you don't care about how we feel, you don't care that we feel left out. You keep making excuses to why you do it, just like your damn idiot WHITE Presdident who gives lip service to us. Guess what even your President went to a mosque and talked out of a mosque and said he loved Islam and Muslims in this country and thinks that they should be invovled in our country. did he actually mean it? do you actually mean. As I squint my eyes and try to take a closer look I realize that the two faces, that being this country and that of the white ISO run anti war movement are blurring together much more, the faces are actually starting to look like. Anything will be said at any cost to gain political momentum. ANYTHING.
Nice one AMIR, you fucking racist BIGOT!
What is this ISO being mentioned everywhere? It can't be the International
Standards Organization I assume? :)
Standards Organization I assume? :)
first off chris is not in the ISO and i respect him a lot...
second...not all the International Socialist Organization folks are white, though white folks do seem to make up the majority of their leadership...and they seem to have some weird hierarchy issues
third..as a white boy...i largely agree with Amir on the things he says, though i also think other things need to be considered...such as the fact that on our campus, UC Berkeley, our administrator threatened the leadership in the Muslim community(MSA)to not get too radical or else...noted there have still been many problems with the Coalition and how many of the more activist orientated people relate to the Muslim community on campus...but this is not easily solved and it is definitely not solved online, though discussion may be nice
and last off, whoever posted the original comment about Chris and his postings to the UCB Coalition's website really needs to get over it...Chris is a good guy, nothing that you quoted is all that incriminating or reflects badly on Chris...Yes we have problems in our coalition, especially with a lack of democracy and a hierarchical(sp?) decision making process that tends to exclude many people, including many voices that need to be heard the most right now(ie those affected by this "War on Terrorism")
oh and by the way, for whatever it is worth, yes the ISO folks do a lot of great work...but the way they operate in larger groups, especially at conferences and in coalitions is completely disempowering and divisive...and I realize that the anarcho, "newbies", anti-hierarchy folks don't always have the "answer" but shit quit pushing things down our throats all the time...we get enough of that in our day to day lives
in struggle - chuckE
ps - the commentary on this stuff will probably keep on coming, but please try to make it as constructive as possible...i know there are some folks who are throwing wrenches into indymedia, so be careful about wording and drawing conclusions without talking to people or knowing them...pay attention, take time to think and listen...
second...not all the International Socialist Organization folks are white, though white folks do seem to make up the majority of their leadership...and they seem to have some weird hierarchy issues
third..as a white boy...i largely agree with Amir on the things he says, though i also think other things need to be considered...such as the fact that on our campus, UC Berkeley, our administrator threatened the leadership in the Muslim community(MSA)to not get too radical or else...noted there have still been many problems with the Coalition and how many of the more activist orientated people relate to the Muslim community on campus...but this is not easily solved and it is definitely not solved online, though discussion may be nice
and last off, whoever posted the original comment about Chris and his postings to the UCB Coalition's website really needs to get over it...Chris is a good guy, nothing that you quoted is all that incriminating or reflects badly on Chris...Yes we have problems in our coalition, especially with a lack of democracy and a hierarchical(sp?) decision making process that tends to exclude many people, including many voices that need to be heard the most right now(ie those affected by this "War on Terrorism")
oh and by the way, for whatever it is worth, yes the ISO folks do a lot of great work...but the way they operate in larger groups, especially at conferences and in coalitions is completely disempowering and divisive...and I realize that the anarcho, "newbies", anti-hierarchy folks don't always have the "answer" but shit quit pushing things down our throats all the time...we get enough of that in our day to day lives
in struggle - chuckE
ps - the commentary on this stuff will probably keep on coming, but please try to make it as constructive as possible...i know there are some folks who are throwing wrenches into indymedia, so be careful about wording and drawing conclusions without talking to people or knowing them...pay attention, take time to think and listen...
> So look what I found on the discussion page, this guy
> Chric C is one of the main organizers, part of the
> Coordinating Committee who is in Charge of the
> conference, this guy who was all over the place and
> did pelnty of things, and this is what he said,
Are you crazy? I did not plan the conference at all.
I did nothing ahead of time to plan the conference beyond posting information on the website. I sure as hell was helping out ON THE DAYS OF the conference. I had a good time and saw a lot of positive things there. But about the most significant thing I personally did was to get the kegs for the party and to make sure to hear out the complaints that were being levied against the actual organizers, and to make sure that the people who were upset had a chance to have a caucus on the issues of process, which they did.
I am also not part of the coordinating committee for Berkeley, nor the conference committee, nor the ISO. I actually consider myself an anarchist. SURPRISE! To have my words twisted and used as proof of some ISO conspiracy is just going overboard and ridiculous.
And even though I am in this as an individual and I have no group affiliation I should not have to defend myself against this freaking ISO-baiting by swearing that I am not an ISO member.
> We are the "problems" and look at how
> describes and goes into detail about how
> we should be "excluded" please pay attention
> to how this ISO memebers goes about talking
> and using "community involvment" as a tool to
> basically say the ISO needs to be involved and
> have more say.
You are totally incoherent! Yes, everybody should go to the discussion board and read... and post! Yay! And when you read my comments, try actually applying some of that good old reading comprehension. I wrote these comments because I was frustrated about some of the structural problems we had been having in our own coalition.
> Also note how he is asking for more outreach to
> new people, but goes on calling them "newbies"
> and talking about them in such a disrespectful way
what did I say that was disrespectful?
> by saying "It takes too long for new members to
> figure out what the coalition is, how meetings work,
> and how they can fit in"
yeah, it does. if you knew anything about our group instead of shooting your mouth off before you got the facts, youd realize this conspiracy theory youve spun around me is ludicrous.
> WTF is going on people? WTF? we want new people in
> this movement but we talk about them like this?
> like they are too stupid to know what's going on
> so they have to be TOLD what's going on?
No. They are not too stupid to know what is going on.
They just dont have ESP. When you get involved in an organization its nice if people tell you how the organization works, and who is doing what. Yeah, the new folks could just hang around for months and figure it all out for themselves, but most people prefer if someone just explains to them: "this is the outreach committee, they do X" "this is action committee, they are working on Y"
Whats so outrageous about that? Would you have preferred to come to the conference and had absolutely no idea where any of the workshops or talks were being held, what they were, etc? Im sure youd be "smart enough" to figure it out for yourself right?
Damn.
-Chris "C"
PS: if you are going to talk smack about me, and you dont have the facts, please feel free to email me to do a little fact checking.
> Chric C is one of the main organizers, part of the
> Coordinating Committee who is in Charge of the
> conference, this guy who was all over the place and
> did pelnty of things, and this is what he said,
Are you crazy? I did not plan the conference at all.
I did nothing ahead of time to plan the conference beyond posting information on the website. I sure as hell was helping out ON THE DAYS OF the conference. I had a good time and saw a lot of positive things there. But about the most significant thing I personally did was to get the kegs for the party and to make sure to hear out the complaints that were being levied against the actual organizers, and to make sure that the people who were upset had a chance to have a caucus on the issues of process, which they did.
I am also not part of the coordinating committee for Berkeley, nor the conference committee, nor the ISO. I actually consider myself an anarchist. SURPRISE! To have my words twisted and used as proof of some ISO conspiracy is just going overboard and ridiculous.
And even though I am in this as an individual and I have no group affiliation I should not have to defend myself against this freaking ISO-baiting by swearing that I am not an ISO member.
> We are the "problems" and look at how
> describes and goes into detail about how
> we should be "excluded" please pay attention
> to how this ISO memebers goes about talking
> and using "community involvment" as a tool to
> basically say the ISO needs to be involved and
> have more say.
You are totally incoherent! Yes, everybody should go to the discussion board and read... and post! Yay! And when you read my comments, try actually applying some of that good old reading comprehension. I wrote these comments because I was frustrated about some of the structural problems we had been having in our own coalition.
> Also note how he is asking for more outreach to
> new people, but goes on calling them "newbies"
> and talking about them in such a disrespectful way
what did I say that was disrespectful?
> by saying "It takes too long for new members to
> figure out what the coalition is, how meetings work,
> and how they can fit in"
yeah, it does. if you knew anything about our group instead of shooting your mouth off before you got the facts, youd realize this conspiracy theory youve spun around me is ludicrous.
> WTF is going on people? WTF? we want new people in
> this movement but we talk about them like this?
> like they are too stupid to know what's going on
> so they have to be TOLD what's going on?
No. They are not too stupid to know what is going on.
They just dont have ESP. When you get involved in an organization its nice if people tell you how the organization works, and who is doing what. Yeah, the new folks could just hang around for months and figure it all out for themselves, but most people prefer if someone just explains to them: "this is the outreach committee, they do X" "this is action committee, they are working on Y"
Whats so outrageous about that? Would you have preferred to come to the conference and had absolutely no idea where any of the workshops or talks were being held, what they were, etc? Im sure youd be "smart enough" to figure it out for yourself right?
Damn.
-Chris "C"
PS: if you are going to talk smack about me, and you dont have the facts, please feel free to email me to do a little fact checking.
For more information:
http://www.berkeleystopthewar.org
Uh... ok.... so what makes you think this Chris C is an ISO-er? Give it up, and focus on building a movement.......
The whole point of building coalitions of diffrent progressive groups to try and fight a particular problem is that each group within the coalition can bring their own analysis of the situation, and ideas about who it can best be remedied to the coalition. In a democratic coalition, which course of action to take is not determined by a single person with a single perspective that is being forced on everybody; decisions are made by a majority of the people.
I'm sorry if the fact that the ISO has idealogical continuity within its membership, and ISO folks aren't afraid to suggest how they think a problem could best be solved, intimidates you as an individual. But you need to be willing to give people the oppertunity to say what they want, and if you don't like it, voice your own alternative within the coalition.
I'm sorry if the fact that the ISO has idealogical continuity within its membership, and ISO folks aren't afraid to suggest how they think a problem could best be solved, intimidates you as an individual. But you need to be willing to give people the oppertunity to say what they want, and if you don't like it, voice your own alternative within the coalition.
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