top
Anti-War
Anti-War
Indybay
Indybay
Indybay
Regions
Indybay Regions North Coast Central Valley North Bay East Bay South Bay San Francisco Peninsula Santa Cruz IMC - Independent Media Center for the Monterey Bay Area North Coast Central Valley North Bay East Bay South Bay San Francisco Peninsula Santa Cruz IMC - Independent Media Center for the Monterey Bay Area California United States International Americas Haiti Iraq Palestine Afghanistan
Topics
Newswire
Features
From the Open-Publishing Calendar
From the Open-Publishing Newswire
Indybay Feature

4/2 interview w/noam chomsky

by friend of znet
an informative and incisive interview with chomsky from april 2
Z: Is there a qualitative change in what's happening now?

I think there is a qualitative change. The goal of the Oslo process was accurately described in 1998 by Israeli academic Shlomo Ben-Ami just before he joined the Barak government, going on to become Barak's chief negotiator at Camp David in summer 2000. Ben-Ami observed that "in practice, the Oslo agreements were founded on a neo- colonialist basis, on a life of dependence of one on the other forever." With these goals, the Clinton-Rabin-Peres agreements were designed to impose on the Palestinians "almost total dependence on Israel," creating "an extended colonial situation," which is expected to be the "permanent basis" for "a situation of dependence." The function of the Palestinian Authority (PA) was to control the domestic population of the Israeli-run neocolonial dependency. That is the way the process unfolded, step by step, including the Camp David suggestions. The Clinton-Barak stand (left vague and unambiguous) was hailed here as "remarkable" and "magnanimous," but a look at the facts made it clear that it was -- as commonly described in Israel -- a Bantustan proposal; that is presumably the reason why maps were carefully avoided in the US mainstream. It is true that Clinton- Barak advanced a few steps towards a Bantustan-style settlement of the kind that South Africa instituted in the darkest days of Apartheid. Just prior to Camp David, West Bank Palestinians were confined to over 200 scattered areas, and Clinton-Barak did propose an improvement: consolidation to three cantons, under Israeli control, virtually separated from one another and from the fourth canton, a small area of East Jerusalem, the center of Palestinian life and of communications in the region. And of course separated from Gaza, where the outcome was left unclear.

But now that plan has apparently been shelved in favor of demolition of the PA. That means destruction of the institutions of the potential Bantustan that was planned by Clinton and his Israeli partners; in the last few days, even a human rights center. The Palestinian figures who were designated to be the counterpart of the Black leaders of the Bantustans are also under attack, though not killed, presumably because of the international consequences. The prominent Israeli scholar Ze'ev Sternhell writes that the government "is no longer ashamed to speak of war when what they are really engaged in is colonial policing, which recalls the takeover by the white police of the poor neighborhoods of the blacks in South Africa during the apartheid era." This new policy is a regression below the Bantustan model of South Africa 40 years ago to which Clinton- Rabin-Peres-Barak and their associates aspired in the Oslo "peace process."

None of this will come as a surprise to those who have been reading critical analyses for the past 10 years, including plenty of material posted regularly on Znet, reviewing developments as they proceeded.

Exactly how the Israeli leadership intends to implement these programs is unclear -- to them too, I presume.

It is convenient in the US, and the West, to blame Israel and particularly Sharon, but that is unfair and hardly honest. Many of Sharon's worst atrocities were carried out under Labor governments. Peres comes close to Sharon as a war criminal. Furthermore, the prime responsibility lies in Washington, and has for 30 years. That is true of the general diplomatic framework, and also of particular actions. Israel can act within the limits established by the master in Washington, rarely beyond.

Z: What is the meaning of March 30th's Security Council Resolution?

The primary issue was whether there would be a demand for immediate Israeli withdrawal from Ramallah and other Palestinian areas that the Israeli army had entered in the current offensive, or at least a deadline for such withdrawal. The US position evidently prevailed: there is only a vague call for "withdrawal of Israeli troops from Palestinian cities," no time frame specified. The Resolution therefore accords with the official US stand, largely reiterated in the press: Israel is under attack and has the right of self-defense, but shouldn't go too far in punishing Palestinians, at least too visibly. The facts -- hardly controversial -- are quite different. Palestinians have been trying to survive under Israeli military occupation, now in its 35th year. It has been harsh and brutal throughout, thanks to decisive US military and economic support, and diplomatic protection, including the barring of the long-standing international consensus on a peaceful political settlement. There is no symmetry in this confrontation, not the slightest, and to frame it in terms of Israeli self-defense goes beyond even standard forms of distortion in the interests of power. The harshest condemnations of Palestinian terror, which are proper and have been for over 30 years, leave these basic facts unchanged.

In scrupulously evading the central immediate issues, the March 30 Resolution is similar to the Security Council Resolution of March 12, which elicited much surprise and favorable notice because it not only was not vetoed by the US, in the usual pattern, but was actually initiated by Washington. The Resolution called for a "vision" of a Palestinian state. It therefore did not rise to the level of South Africa 40 years ago when the Apartheid regime did not merely announce a "vision" but actually established Black-run states that were at least as viable and legitimate as what the US and Israel had been planning for the occupied territories.

Z: What is the U.S. up to now? What U.S. interests are at stake at this juncture?

The US is a global power. What happens in Israel-Palestine is a sidelight. There are many factors entering into US policies. Chief among them in this region of the world is control over the world's major energy resources. The US-Israel alliance took shape in that context. By 1958, the National Security Council concluded that a "logical corollary" of opposition to growing Arab nationalism "would be to support Israel as the only strong pro- Western power left in the Middle East." That is an exaggeration, but an affirmation of the general strategic analysis, which identified indigenous nationalism as the primary threat (as elsewhere in the Third World); typically called "Communist," though it is commonly recognized in the internal record that this is a term of propaganda and that Cold War issues were often marginal, as in the crucial year of 1958. The alliance became firm in 1967, when Israel performed an important service for US power by destroying the main forces of secular Arab nationalism, considered a very serious threat to US domination of the Gulf region. So matters continued, after the collapse of the USSR as well. By now the US-Israel-Turkey alliance is a centerpiece of US strategy, and Israel is virtually a US military base, also closely integrated with the militarized US high-tech economy.

Within that persistent framework, the US naturally supports Israeli repression of the Palestinians and integration of the occupied territories, including the neocolonial project outlined by Ben-Ami, though specific policy choices have to be made depending on circumstances. Right now, Bush planners continue to block steps towards diplomatic settlement, or even reduction of violence; that is the meaning, for example, of their veto of the Dec. 15 2001 Security Council Resolution calling for steps towards implementing the US Mitchell plan and introduction of international monitors to supervise the reduction of violence. For similar reasons, the US boycotted the Dec. 5 international meetings in Geneva (including the EU, even Britain) which reaffirmed that the Fourth Geneva Convention applies to the occupied territories, so that critically important US-Israeli actions there are "grave breaches" of the Convention - war crimes, in simple terms - as the Geneva declaration elaborated. That merely reaffirmed the Security Council Resolution of October 2000 (US abstaining), which held once again that the Convention applied to the occupied territories. That had been the official US position as well, stated formally, for example, by George Bush I when he was UN Ambassador. The US regularly abstains or boycotts in such cases, not wanting to take a public stand in opposition to core principles of international law, particularly in the light of the circumstances under which the Conventions were enacted: to criminalize formally the atrocities of the Nazis, including their actions in the territories they occupied. The media and intellectual culture generally cooperate by their own "boycott" of these unwelcome facts: in particular, the fact that as a High Contracting Party, the US government is legally obligated by solemn treaty to punish violators of the Conventions, including its own political leadership.

That's only a small sample. Meanwhile the flow of arms and economic support for maintaining the occupation by force and terror and extending settlements continues without any pause.

Z: What's your opinion of the Arab summit?

The Arab summit led to general acceptance of the Saudi Arabian plan, which reiterated the basic principles of the long-standing international consensus: Israel should withdraw from the occupied territories in the context of a general peace agreement that would guarantee the right of every state in the region, including Israel and a new Palestinian State, to peace and security within recognized borders (the basic wording of UN 242, amplified to include a Palestinian state). There is nothing new about this. These are the basic terms of the Security Council resolution of January 1976 backed by virtually the entire world, including the leading Arab states, the PLO, Europe, the Soviet bloc, the non- aligned countries -- in fact, everyone who mattered. It was opposed by Israel and vetoed by the US, thereby vetoed from history. Subsequent and similar initiatives from the Arab states, the PLO, and Western Europe were blocked by the US, continuing to the present. That includes the 1981 Fahd plan. That record too has been effectively vetoed from history, for the usual reasons.

US rejectionism in fact goes back 5 years earlier, to February 1971, when President Sadat of Egypt offered Israel a full peace treaty in return for Israeli withdrawal from Egyptian territory, not even bringing up Palestinian national rights or the fate of the other occupied territories. Israel's Labor government recognized this as a genuine peace offer, but decided to reject it, intending to extend its settlements to northeastern Sinai; that it soon did, with extreme brutality, the immediate cause for the 1973 war. The plan for the Palestinians under military occupation was described frankly to his Cabinet colleagues by Moshe Dayan, one of the Labor leaders more sympathetic to the Palestinian plight. Israel should make it clear that "we have no solution, you shall continue to live like dogs, and whoever wishes may leave, and we will see where this process leads." Following that recommendation, the guiding principle of the occupation has been incessant and degrading humiliation, along with torture, terror, destruction of property, displacement and settlement, and takeover of basic resources, crucially water.

Sadat's 1971offer conformed to official US policy, but Kissinger succeeded in instituting his preference for what he called "stalemate": no negotiations, only force. Jordanian peace offers were also dismissed. Since that time, official US policy has kept to the international consensus on withdrawal (until Clinton, who effectively rescinded UN resolutions and considerations of international law); but in practice, policy has followed the Kissinger guidelines, accepting negotiations only when compelled to do so, as Kissinger was after the near-debacle of the 1973 war for which he shares major responsibility, and under the conditions that Ben-Ami articulated.

Official doctrine instructs us to focus attention on the Arab summit, as if the Arab states and the PLO are the problem, in particular, their intention to drive Israel into the sea. Coverage presents the basic problem as vacillation, reservations, and qualifications in the Arab world. There is little that one can say in favor of the Arab states and the PLO, but these claims are simply untrue, as a look at the record quickly reveals.

The more serious press recognized that the Saudi plan largely reiterated the Saudi Fahd Plan of 1981, claiming that that initiative was undermined by Arab refusal to accept the existence of Israel. The facts are again quite different. The 1981 plan was undermined by an Israeli reaction that even its mainstream press condemned as "hysterical," backed by the US. That includes Shimon Peres and other alleged doves, who warned that acceptance of the Fahd plan would "threaten Israel's very existence." An indication of the hysteria is the reaction of Israel's President Haim Herzog, also considered a dove. He charged that the "real author" of the Fahd plan was the PLO, and that it was even more extreme than the January 1976 Security Council resolution that was "prepared by" the PLO, at the time when he was Israel's UN Ambassador. These claims can hardly be true, but they are an indication of the desperate fear of a political settlement on the part of Israeli doves, backed throughout by the US. The basic problem then, as now, traces back to Washington, which has persistently backed Israel's rejection of a political settlement in terms of the broad international consensus, reiterated in essentials in the current Saudi proposals.

Until such elementary facts as these are permitted to enter into discussion, displacing the standard misrepresentation and deceit, discussion is mostly beside the point. And we should not be drawn into it -- for example, by implicitly accepting the assumption that developments at the Arab summit are a critical problem. They have significance, of course, but it is secondary. The primary problems are right here, and it is our responsibility to face them and deal with them, not to displace them to others.
by Deconstructionist
Send his ass to a settlement in Gaza and see how fast someone nails that motherfucker.
by Truthteller
Chomsky would be shot by the Palestinians if he dared show up any where near the West Bank or Gaza. Why? Because he is a Jew and the Palestinians have dedicated themselves to the destruction of Israel and the death of ALL Jews. You don't need a PhD or access to alternative web sites to know this. It is a stated policy of the Palestinian "Authority."

In another era, Chomsky would be a collaborator getting extra food rations for his "work." He is going to end up in the same pile of ashes as all the other Jews, all the Christians, and all the democratic activists the Palestinians and their allies detest and are working to destroy.

by aaron
are incapable of mounting a counter-argument. So, like the UN fact-finding mission in Jenin, Chomsky is a an anti-semite. Or so they claim. People are tiring of this line of "argumentation".

If pro-zionists want to unearth anti-semites perhaps they could take a good look at their bunk-mates. Have you heard Le Pen's recent pro-Israel comments? Or how about that pro-Israeli anti-semite, Richard Nixon? Or all the fulminating right-wing christian cranks in the US who've embraced Israel's recent slaughter?

by mike
you said it, dude. Pro-Israel anti-Semites should form an organization: "We Love Israel But We Hate the Jews." Then we'd see how long apologists for Israel go on and on about anti-Semitism while ignoring the ways in which anti-Semites infest their rown ranks.
by Honest
MYTH

"The outbreak of violence in late 2000, dubbed by Arabs the al-Aksa intifada, was provoked by Ariel Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount."

FACT

To believe Palestinian spokesmen, the violence was caused by the desecration of a Muslim holy place – Haram al-Sharif – by Likud leader Ariel Sharon and the “thousands of Israeli soldiers” who accompanied him. The violence was carried out through unprovoked attacks by Israeli forces, which invaded Palestinian-controlled territories and “massacred” defenseless Palestinian civilians, who merely threw stones in self-defense. The only way to stop the violence, then, is for Israel to remove its troops from the Palestinian areas and cease the fire. The truth is dramatically different.

Imad Faluji, the Palestinian Authority Communications Minister, admitted months after Sharon's visit that the violence had been planned in July, far in advance of Sharon's "provocation." "It [the uprising] had been planned since Chairman Arafat's return from Camp David, when he turned the tables on the former US president and rejected the American conditions."1

The violence started before Sharon's September 28, 2000, visit to the Temple Mount. The day before, for example, an Israeli soldier was killed at the Netzarim Junction. The soldier was killed after the explosion of a roadside bomb. The next day in the West Bank city of Kalkilya, a Palestinian police officer working with Israeli police on a joint patrol opened fire and killed his Israeli counterpart.

 
“The Sharon visit did not cause the ‘Al-Aqsa Intifada.’” 

— Conclusion of the Mitchell Report,  (May 4, 2001)

Official Palestinian Authority (PA) media exhorted the Palestinians to violence. On Sept. 29, the Voice of Palestine, the PA's official radio station sent out calls "to all Palestinians to come and defend the al-Aksa mosque." The PA closed its schools and bused Palestinian students to the Temple Mount to participate in the organized riots.

Just prior to Rosh Hashanah (Sept. 30), the Jewish New Year, when hundreds of Israelis were worshipping at the Western Wall, thousands of Arabs began throwing bricks and rocks at Israeli police and Jewish worshippers. Rioting then spread to towns and villages throughout Israel, the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

Internal Security Minister Shlomo Ben-Ami permitted Sharon to go to the Temple Mount – Judaism’s holiest place, which Muslims have renamed Haram al-Sharif and regard as Islam’s third holiest place – only after calling Palestinian security chief Jabril Rajoub and receiving his assurance that if Sharon did not enter the mosques, no problems would arise. The need to protect Sharon – with several hundred policemen, not thousands of soldiers – arose when Rajoub later said that the Palestinian police would do nothing to prevent violence during the visit. Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount ended peacefully, with serious rioting erupting more than 24 hours later.

The real desecration of holy places was perpetrated by Palestinians, not Israelis. Palestinian mobs destroyed a Jewish shrine – Joseph’s Tomb – tearing up and burning Jewish prayer books. They stoned worshipers at the Western Wall and attacked Rachel’s Tomb with firebombs and automatic weapons.

None of the violent attacks were initiated by Israeli security forces, which in all cases responded to Palestinian violence that went well beyond stone throwing. It included massive attacks with automatic weapons and lynchings of Israeli soldiers. Most armed attackers were members of the Tanzim – Arafat’s own militia.

The disproportionate number of Palestinian casualties was the inevitable result of an irregular, ill-trained militia attacking a well-trained regular army, and the Tanzim’s frequent use of Palestinian civilians shields for its attacks.

Since all attacks were initiated by Palestinians under Arafat’s orders, only Arafat has the power to end the violence. Israel and the United States have called on him to do so and renew the peace process.

 
“The issues of Jerusalem, the refugees and sovereignty are one and will be finalized on the ground and not in negotiations. At this point it is important to prepare Palestinian society for the challenge of the next step because we will inevitably find ourselves in a violent confrontation with Israel in order to create new facts on the ground. ... I believe that the situation in the future will be more violent than the Intifada.” 

— Abu-Ali Mustafa of the Palestinian Authority,  (July 23, 2000)2

 

MYTH

"Violence is an understandable and legitimate reaction to Israel's policies."

FACT

The basis of the peace process is that disputes should be resolved through negotiations. One of the conditions Israel set before agreeing to negotiate with the PLO was that the organization renounce terrorism. It formally did so; however, the PLO and other Palestinian groups and individuals have consistently resorted to violence since the Oslo process began in 1993. It has not mattered if Israel made concessions or refused to do so, heinous attacks have still been committed by Palestinians. In some instances the atrocities have been perpetrated because of alleged mistreatment or by groups interested in sabotaging negotiations, but the Palestinian Authority, which has a 40,000-person police force (larger than allowed under the peace agreements) and multiple intelligence agencies, must be held responsible for keeping the peace.

Since the Signing of the Declaration of Principles3
(September 13, 1993-August 11, 1999)
Terrorist Activity Judea and Samaria Gaza Strip
IDF soldiers killed 20 32
IDF soldiers wounded 617 419
Israeli civilians killed 43 5
Israeli civilians wounded 567 86
Molotov cocktails 1784 715
Shootings 305 453
Cases of arson 102 13
Explosive devices 157 181
Fragmentation grenades 58 62
Stabbings 284 214


MYTH

"The al-Aksa uprising does not hurt Israel because the  demonstrations are limited to confrontations  with Israeli soldiers in the West Bank and Gaza Strip."

FACT

Palestinian violence in the West Bank and Gaza has taken the lives of numerous civilians and soldiers. In addition, terrorists acting in the name of the uprising have carried out heinous attacks inside Israel. The violence also has collateral impact on the Israeli psyche, military and economy.

Israelis must now be careful traveling through many parts of Israel and the territories that should be safe. Palestinians have also sniped at Jews in cities such as Gilo that are outside the territories. The violence has severely undermined the faith Israelis had in the prospect for peace with the Palestinians if they made territorial concessions.

The uprising also affects military readiness because troops must be diverted from training and preparing against threats from hostile nations and instead must focus on quelling riots and fighting terrorism.

Finally, the violence has caused a sharp reduction in tourism and damaged related industries. Some 64,000 Israelis have lost their jobs because of the Palestinian uprising.4

It is not only the Israelis who suffer. The loss of tourism also hurts Palestinians. The number of visitors, for example, who normally visit Bethlehem for Christmas was significantly lower. The same is true in other pilgrimage sites in the Palestinian Authority. Palestinian shopkeepers in places like the Old City are also affected by the drop in tourism. Terrorist attacks also force Israel to periodically prohibit Palestinian workers from entering Israel hurting individuals trying to make a living and provide for their families.
by ben
FACT: 95% of the palestinian were living under Yasser Arafat's rule when the second intifada broke out.

FACT: palestinian terror attacks did not stop during Israeli palestinian peace talks.

FACT: there were never any signs for an alleged 'massacre' in Jenin (except for palestinian propeganda ministry comments).

FACT: palestinians trained children to be 'martyrs' years before the start of the second intifada.

FACT: palestinians frequently display the swastika (sign of the nazi party) at Hamas and Fatah demonstrations.
by donny
FACT: "Israel" is an illegitimate state that came into being by massacring the indigenious Palestinian muslim, christian and jewish population and forcibly expelling 750,000 Palestinians.

FACT: The early zionist colonizers used nazi warfare to further their racist agenda, and infact wore the same uniforms as those of their nazi heros while commiting their attrocities.

FACT: Palestine was a secular state, open to all religions. "Israel" is a fascist state that is exclusive to zionists. Christians, Muslims and orthodox Jews are not allowed to enter.

FACT: The end of "Israel" is approaching The world is waking up to see the true face of the evil movement that is zionism and its hideous crimes against humanity.
by Paul Rozental
I think that Noam Chomsky has got psychological problems and needs help. I am sure that a Palestinian psychiatrist in Gaza Strip would work wonders for him.
Also I think that his selective vision might be in need of a neurologist.
by mike
i have a new solution for terrorists like Sharon and Chomsky-hating morons ike you. Why don't you put a gun to your head and blow your own fucking brains out? Thank you.
by mike
i have a new solution for terrorists like Sharon and Chomsky-hating morons ike you. Why don't you put a gun to your head and blow your own fucking brains out? Thank you.
by Johnston
It strikes me as odd that people can be so ferociously adamant and vocal about major issues without really understanding the basic underlying history or grasping the reality of the situation. For example:

As soon as Israel signed the Oslo Accords in 1993 most of it's people were sure real peace was in store for the whole region. What did Arafat and the PLO do to encourage peace once they installed themselves in their leadership role? They disposed of all of the standard issue Egyptian and Jordanian published school textbooks and instead turned to hate filled books that taught children to count guns instead of apples; taught that all Jews should be killed; taught that Jews had no ancestral relationship or claim to the region(!); taught that Israel did not even exist on a map. For a decade Palestinian children were taught to become terrorists and suicide bombers while the elite of the PLO practiced rampant corruption, fraud, illegal arms purchases and human rights abuses on the very people they were entrusted to protect and provide a viable infrastructure and economy. What happend to the hundreds of millions of dollars Arafat was given to perform these leadership duties while he had control of 95% of the Palestinian areas?

By the way, just another quick fact for anyone who believes that Palestinian terrorism will stop if Israel just leaves the Territories: (Please do your own homework and look this up.) Arafat formed the PLO and started terrorist attacks on Israel in 1965, that is 2 YEARS BEFORE Israel was forced to occupy the territories in a regional war for it's very survival. So the old cry of occupation, occupation, occupation is what originally started the PLO and the Palestinian uprisings does not hold much water.
We are 100% volunteer and depend on your participation to sustain our efforts!

Donate

$110.00 donated
in the past month

Get Involved

If you'd like to help with maintaining or developing the website, contact us.

Publish

Publish your stories and upcoming events on Indybay.

IMC Network