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Santa Cruz Records Custodian Nydia Patiño denies receipt of disabled homeless complaint

by John E. Colby
The City of Santa Cruz denies receiving my email complaint about disabled homeless people Steve Lazow (in a wheelchair) and Mia Dellarosa being evicted from the Paul Lee Loft shelter for Mia helping Steve (while she was fully clothed) take a shower. Steve had been unable to take a shower for some time because no one had helped him take one. They were exercising his federally protected disability rights.

Santa Cruz Records Custodian Nydia Patiño refuses to provide me with a copy of this email as proof that the City Council received it. I have objective proof that it was received. Why is Ms. Patiño lying? What is she trying to coverup? Who is she protecting and why?
resending_petition_for_redress_of_grievances_and_complaint_against_santa_cruz_hud_block_grant_provider.pdf_600_.jpg
Santa Cruz Mayor Don Lane called me, leaving a voicemail on my telephone, regarding my email complaint. He opened an email discussion with me over this email complaint. Santa Cruz City Clerk Bren Lehr verbally confirmed receipt of the email complaint. Santa Cruz City Housing Programs Manger Carol Berg emailed me that the issues I raised in my email complaint had been resolved.

So why is Santa Cruz City Records Custodian Nydia Patiño denying the email was received by refusing to provide me a copy of the received email complaint? Why is the City of Santa Cruz lying again, denying this email complaint was ever received?

More evasion from an untrustworthy city that evades responsibility, making endless excuses. Just like Santa Cruz Mayor Don Lane blames all the illegal behavior by the shelters on the Homeless Services Center campus on lack of funding, while he claims my advocacy will cause other homeless people to suffer loss of services, coercing me to drop my advocacy for my disabled homeless clients.

My email response can be inspected using Google Docs via this link:

http://tinyurl.com/862o35e

I intend to keep resending this email complaint until the City of Santa Cruz confirms its receipt by forwarding me back an electronic copy of it from a California Public Records Act request for it. How long will the City of Santa Cruz try to deny knowledge of this email complaint about Mr. Lazow and Ms. Dellarosa being evicted from the Paul Lee Loft shelter for exercising his disability rights?
city_of_santa_cruz___city_council.pdf_600_.jpg
Now Santa Cruz Records Custodian Nydia Patiño is claiming that she didn't provide me the email complaint to the City Council in response to my California Public Records Act request because she wasn't carbon copied it — she didn't have a copy of it.


See the attached PDF of our email correspondence and read it in the article below.

All emails sent to the City Council are public records. Searching for public records is her job — why isn't Ms. Patiño performing her duties? What does she do for the City of Santa Cruz? What is she paid to do?



Ms. Patiño's history of incredulous claims to me just get more and more unbelievable. Santa Cruz city staff must have emergency meetings where they cook up these whoppers.

 How can I believe anything anyone at the City, including Mayor Don Lane, claims to me?

Mr. Colby:
 
As you can observe from the email below, I was not in receipt of the email you are referring to until yesterday afternoon. I would suggest, that if you would like me to receive any emails in the future, that you either include me in the “To” line or copy me on the email. Thank you.
 
Nydia Patiño
Records Coordinator
From: Bren Lehr On Behalf Of City Council
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2012 12:30 PM
To: David Terrazas; Don Lane; Hilary Bryant; Katherine Beiers; Lynn Robinson; Ryan Coonerty; Tony Madrigal
Cc: Nydia Patino; Martin Bernal
Subject: FW: Resending petition for redress of grievances and complaint against Santa Cruz HUD block grant provider
 
 
From: John E.Colby [mailto:colby [at] docktorcat.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2012 1:27 AM
To: City Council
Cc: Don Lane; Ryan Coonerty; Katherine Beiers; Hilary Bryant; Tony Madrigal; Lynn Robinson; David Terrazas; John Barisone; Martin Bernal; Carol Berg; John McCarty; Lester Davis; Richard Salom; Clifford Taffet; Maria F. Cremer; Kimberly Y. Nash; James R. Grow; Neil Donovan; Joey Gallardo; Michael Collier; Amy Chance; David Butler; Gretchen White; 4listens [at] kron4.com; assignmentdesk [at] kqed.org;contact [at] pacifica.org; Greg Archer; Elizabeth Limbach; Terry Francke
Subject: Resending petition for redress of grievances and complaint against Santa Cruz HUD block grant provider
 
June 26, 2012
 
City Council
809 Center Street, Room 10
Santa Cruz, CA 95060
Tel: 831.420.5020
 
via email to: citycouncil [at] cityofsantacruz.com
cc: dlane [at] cityofsantacruz.com
cc: rcoonerty [at] cityofsantacruz.com
cc: kbeiers [at] cityofsantacruz.com
cc: hbryant [at] cityofsantacruz.com
cc: tmadrigal [at] cityofsantacruz.com
cc: lrobinson [at] cityofsantacruz.com
cc: dterrazas [at] cityofsantacruz.com
cc: JBarisone [at] abc-law.com
cc: mbernal [at] cityofsantacruz.com
cc: cberg [at] cityofsantacruz.com
cc: John.McCarty [at] hud.gov
cc: Lester.Davis [at] hud.gov
cc: Richard.Salom [at] hud.gov
cc: Clifford.Taffet [at] hud.gov
cc: Maria.F.Cremer [at] hud.gov
cc: kimberly.y.nash [at] hud.gov
cc: jgrow [at] nhlp.org
cc: info [at] nationalhomeless.org
cc: joey.gallardo [at] disabilityrights.org
cc: mcollier [at] sfchronicle.com
cc: achance [at] sacbee.com
cc: dbutler [at] mercurynews.com
cc: white [at] kpix.cbs.com
cc: 4listens [at] kron4.com
cc: assignmentdesk [at] kqed.org
cc: contact [at] pacifica.org
cc: garcher [at] gtweekly.com
cc: elizabeth [at] gtweekly.com
cc:  terry [at] calaware.org
 
re: Resending petition for redress of grievances and complaint against Santa Cruz HUD block grant provider
 
Dear City Council:
 
I am writing to you to ensure that you have received the copied email with the subject line "Petition for redress of grievances and complaint against Santa Cruz HUD block grant provider". I am asking in accordance with the California Public Records Act (CPRA) — I am making a CPRA request — that the City of Santa Cruz forward me back a copy of this email as a PDF when you receive it. Your records custodian Nydia Patiño claims that you have not received this petition for the redress of grievances from me. 
 
I want proof that the City of Santa Cruz received this email message. This is important for federal agencies to know.
 
Question: 
 
Mayor Don Lane acknowledged receipt of this email in a telephone voicemail to me and emails which have been published on Santa Cruz Indymedia, as well Santa Cruz City Clerk Bren Lehr verbally confirming receipt and Santa Cruz Housing Programs Manager Carol Berg admitting in an email receiving it — why does Santa Cruz Records Custodian Nydia Patiño deny the City Council received it? Why is Ms. Patiño denying this?
 
I intend to keep resending this email until Ms. Patiño confirms receipt by forwarding me back a copy of it.
 
I appreciate your confirming receipt of this email by having Ms. Patiño forward me back immediately a copy of this email as a PDF.
 
Sincerely yours,
John E. Colby, Ph.D.
 
email: colby [at] docktorcat.com
telephone: 831.471.9767
cellphone: 831.419.1521
 
postal address:
849 Almar Avenue, Suite C–242
Santa Cruz, CA 95060
 
Begin forwarded message:
 
From: "John E. Colby"
Date: June 11, 2012 10:54:48 AM PDT
To: citycouncil [at] cityofsantacruz.com
Subject: Petition for redress of grievances and complaint against Santa Cruz HUD block grant provider
 
June 11, 2012
 
Mayor Don Lane
809 Center Street, Room 10
Santa Cruz, CA 95060
Tel: 831.420.5020
 
via email to: dlane [at] cityofsantacruz.com
cc: rcoonerty [at] cityofsantacruz.com
cc: kbeiers [at] cityofsantacruz.com
cc: hbryant [at] cityofsantacruz.com
cc: tmadrigal [at] cityofsantacruz.com
cc: lrobinson [at] cityofsantacruz.com
cc: dterrazas [at] cityofsantacruz.com
cc: JBarisone [at] abc-law.com
cc: mbernal [at] cityofsantacruz.com
cc: cberg [at] cityofsantacruz.com
cc: John.McCarty [at] hud.gov
cc: Lester.Davis [at] hud.gov
cc: Richard.Salom [at] hud.gov
cc: Mercedes.M.Marquez [at] hud.gov
cc: Maria.F.Cremer [at] hud.gov
cc: jgrow [at] nhlp.org
cc: info [at] nationalhomeless.org
cc: Disability Rights California via facsimile
cc: mcollier [at] sfchronicle.com
cc: achance [at] sacbee.com
cc: dbutler [at] mercurynews.com
cc: white [at] kpix.cbs.com
cc: 4listens [at] kron4.com
cc: assignmentdesk [at] kqed.org
cc: contact [at] pacifica.org
cc: jcopeland [at] santacruzsentinel.com
cc: garcher [at] gtweekly.com
cc: msc [at] metcruz.com
cc: brad.kava [at] patch.com
cc: editors [at] cityonahillpress.com
cc: ksconews [at] gmail.com
cc: kusp [at] kusp.org
cc: frsc [at] freakradio.org
 
re: Petition for redress of grievances and complaint against Santa Cruz HUD block grant provider
 
Dear Mayor Lane:
 
I am writing to you as the authorized representative and advocate for Steve Lazow, a disabled homeless citizen of Santa Cruz. Please view my officiated certification of representation and advocacy attached as a PDF and viewable using the link below:
 
http://tinyurl.com/6pk6or2
 
Mr. Lazow is confined to a wheelchair. It is cruel, abusive and uncompassionate that the City of Santa Cruz would force him to sleep outdoors, vulnerable to attack and the elements. Mr. Lazow was evicted last Sunday from the Paul Lee Loft shelter for exercising his disability rights. His friend Mia LNU was evicted from the Paul Lee Loft for assisting Mr. Lazow in exercising his disability rights. It is inexcusable that Paul Lee Loft shelter staff would violate the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA), Section 504 (of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973), and the federal Fair Housing Act, discriminating against both Mr. Lazow and Mia LNU by making them homeless for exercising Mr. Lazow's disability rights. Moreover, staff at the Paul Lee Loft shelter violated the requirements of their HUD grant money, placing their HUD funds at risk.
 
Additionally, it is reported that the staff–person who evicted Mr. Lazow and Mia LNU from the Paul Lee Loft shelter is a misogynist who has a grudge against Mia LNU. This could be determined to be gender based harassment violating the federal Fair Housing Act.
 
Please view the petition by homeless individuals staying at the Homeless Services Center (HSC) campus to reinstate Mr. Lazow and Mia LNU at the Paul Lee Loft shelter, and to reprimand staff–person Joe LNU for writing up Mr. Lazow and Mia LNU then evicting them from the Paul Lee Loft shelter, forcing Mr. Lazow to sleep outdoors in his wheelchair, at great risk, while he suffers pain from a medical condition related to his physical disability. It is attached as a PDF and may be viewed using the link below:
 
http://tinyurl.com/d283boh
 
Please view the incident reports by Megan Andrea Morgan, whom I also advocate for and represent, and Patricia Bounds. They both ask that Mr. Lazow and Mia LNU be reinstated at the Paul Lee Loft shelter and that staff–person Joe LNU be reprimanded. These reports are attached as PDFs and may be viewed using the links below:
 
http://tinyurl.com/cf56xmz
 
http://tinyurl.com/d2evg2x
 
Please view photographs of Mr. Lazow resting, trying to fall asleep against the back wall of the rear of the HSC Campus parking lot. A blanket is his only protection from the elements. He has no protection from criminals who might do him harm due to his vulnerability:
 
I would like to describe the factual circumstances as I understand them from speaking to several people and my own observations:
 
Mr. Lazow is confined to a wheelchair. Due to a serious physical disability, Mr. Lazow does not have any function in his legs — his legs are mostly paralyzed.
 
The Paul Lee Loft shelter does not provide assistive services for physically disabled homeless individuals who are unable to shower because of their disabilities, e.g. individuals in wheelchairs like Mr. Lazow.
 
Paul Lee Loft shelter staff refused to assist Mr. Lazow in showering, thus he was unable to shower. Mia LNU informed Paul Lee Loft shelter staff that she would assist Mr. Lazow in showering, since he was not receiving assistance and had not recently showered.
 
After helping Mr. Lazow shower, two Paul Lee Loft shelter staff–people commended Mia LNU for her assistance in helping Mr. Lazow take showers.
 
Early Sunday morning Paul Lee Loft shelter employee Joe LNU wrote up Mr. Lazow and Mia LNU for a female showering with a male in the male showers. Joe informed them verbally, not in writing, that they were being exited from the Paul Lee Loft shelter after doors closed that morning and could not return. Joe LNU did not provide them written complaints which they could dispute using an appeals process. Joe LNU denied Mr. Lazow and Mia LNU their federally guaranteed due process rights. Mr. Lazow believes that Joe LNU retaliated against him because one of Mr. Lazow's friends publicly embarrassed Joe LNU by calling Joe out to fight off the property — Joe LNU backed down in front of others. Mr. Lazow believes that Joe LNU bears a personal grudge against him.
 
Mia LNU and others related to me that Joe LNU is a misogynist who bears a grudge towards Mia. They believe Joe LNU was retaliating against Mia because of his grudge against her which seems to be based in misogyny.
 
Mia LNU was able to stay Sunday night in the motel room of a friend. Mr. Lazow was unable to find an available motel room. Consequently Mr. Lazow was not housed Sunday night, sleeping in his wheelchair covered by a blanket, in the parking lot of the Homeless Resource Center (HSC) Campus.
 
Mr. Lazow informed me that he was the victim of a robbery last January. He informed the SCPD. Others told Mr. Lazow that the perpetuator had been caught by the SCPD yet no charges were brought against this individual by the District Attorney's Office. The SCPD did not return Mr. Lazow's stolen belongings to him.
 
Mr. Lazow was seen at a medical clinic Sunday afternoon. His swollen left leg was bandaged. Mr. Lazow was not told the nature of his medical condition. Mr. Lazow was prescribed medicine for the swelling. Mr. Lazow has been in a great deal of pain since then. When I entered the HSC Campus Sunday night around 7:30 PM, I saw paramedics leaving the campus. Mr. Lazow informed me that he had called 911 for the paramedics. The paramedics refused to examine and treat Mr. Lazow. They did not even examine his swollen, bandaged left leg. The paramedics claimed Mr. Lazow had called them just to gain housing for the night. I photographed Mr. Lazow where he was resting, covered by a blanket, trying to sleep while suffering in pain. I left to obtain food and water for him. I returned about 30 minutes later with food and water. I told Mr. Lazow to call me if the pain became unbearable, that I would call 911 for him and have the paramedics return, because I am his representative and advocate. I then left Mr. Lazow. I have not spoken with him since then. I don't know if he survived the night.
 
Lastly, HSC Executive Director Monica Martinez refuses to recognize me as an advocate and representative, claiming that HSC clients require court ordered requests to retain an advocate and representative. This is outrageous! Her staff refuses to provide me a written copy of this policy so that I may share it with the federal government, an attorney and the news media. I believe her claimed policy is illegal, not only under the ADA, but also under laws which allow people to retain others, like family members, as representatives and advocates for them. If Ms. Martinez does not acknowledge me as a representative and advocate for HSC clients then I plan to take legal and governmental action against the HSC and the City of Santa Cruz which funds and administers it.
 
I ask that:
 

• Mr. Lazow and Mia LNU be immediately reinstated at the Paul Lee Loft shelter.

• Paul Lee Loft shelter staff–person Joe LNU be reprimanded.

• Monica Martinez, Executive Director of the HSC, personally apologize to Mr. Lazow and Mia LNU, assuring them that they will be able to exercise Mr. Lazow's federally protected disability rights without retaliation by HSC staff.

• Monica Martinez, Executive Director of the HSC, personally ensure that the petitioners, especially Ms. Morgan whom I represent and who gathered signatures for the petition, be protected from retaliation and coercion as they acted to assist Mr. Lazow and Mia LNU in exercising his federally protected disability rights.

• Monica Martinez, Executive Director of the HSC, personally direct HSC staff in crafting ADA, Section 504 and Fair Housing compliance policies and procedures — complying with HUD guidelines — to be given to all applicants and HSC staff.

• All HSC staff be educated about beneficiaries' rights and staff's responsibilities under the ADA, Section 504, the Fair Housing Act and other applicable nondiscrimination laws.
 
A signed copy of this email message will be mailed to you via certified post. I appreciate your immediate attention to my petition for redress of grievances and your addressing my complaint against the Paul Lee Loft shelter (part of the HSC) as a Santa Cruz HUD block grant provider.
 
Sincerely yours,
John E. Colby, Ph.D.
 
email: colby [at] docktorcat.com
telephone: 831.471.9767
 
postal address:
849 Almar Avenue, Suite C–242
Santa Cruz, CA 95060
re_-_resending_petition_for_redress_of_grievances_and_complaint_against_santa_cruz_hud_block_grant_provider.pdf_600_.jpg
Clearly I sent this complaint email to the City Council and all the individual council members on June 11, 2012. Why did City Clerk Administrator Bren Lehr just disburse it to the CIty Council, Ms. Patiño and other city officials?

The lies from the City of Santa Cruz about my emails and public records requests just keep piling up. I have a long record of them now — so does the news media.
Add Your Comments

Comments (Hide Comments)
by Ed Natol (ednatol [at] hotmail.com)
When you send a message with a lot of attachments to a long list of email addresses, a lot of spam filters will sort that out. If you had sent it to me, it would have been auto round filed with no input on my part.
by John E. Colby
No one is filtering these out with their spam filters. The government is acting on my behalf and I communicate with these people. You're just trolling, trying to invalidate my valid criticism of the City of Santa Cruz. Can't you come up with anything more to the issue than that?
by Confused
John, how can you categorically dismiss the possibility that your message was filtered? Just because they receive one message from you does not mean something in a subsequent message would not trigger the filter. Even within corporate mail servers this is not uncommon. For example, I receive emails from one customer just fine, but my boss's spam protection routinely removes those same messages from his inbox.

The issue of your original complaint (the denial of services to a disabled person) is not trivial, but neither are the accusations you are making with regard the receipt/non-receipt of your email. Unless you have iron-clad proof that the Santa Cruz Records Custodian is lying, I suggest you try a different approach, such as certified snail mail or FedEx with a signature required.
You are confused. If you read my article more closely, you would notice that Mayor Don Lane referred to receiving the email in emails he sent to me, and in a message he left on my telephone voicemail. Santa Cruz City Clerk Administrator Bren Lehr verbally confirmed receipt of the email, saying it would be distributed to the City Council and other city officials. Santa Cruz Housing Programs Manager Carol Berg replied to the complaints I raised in the email, and referred to it.

This email was not filtered out as spam. It was received, as these objective means show.

Why won't the City of Santa Cruz formally acknowledge receipt of this email complaint. Why is Santa Cruz Records Custodian Nydia Patiño claiming the email was not received, while everyone else at the City confirmed that it was received?
Two weeks ago, Mayor Lane agreed to address these issues in a public forum.

We had the following e-mail exchange.

From: dlane [at] cityofsantacruz.com
To: rnorse3 [at] hotmail.com
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 16:33:18 -0700
Subject: RE: Radio Discussion Sunday: Invitation to the Mayor Don Lane

Robert

To this question:

“I'm sure there are other advocates who would be happy to have a dialogue with you if you find my history of activism off-putting and "saddening". I'd be happy to arrange that. Would you be willing to do that publicly, either on the radio or in another public forum?”

Yes.

Don Lane Mayor



From: rnorse3 [at] hotmail.com
To: dlane [at] cityofsantacruz.com
Subject: RE: Radio Discussion Sunday: Invitation to the Mayor Don Lane
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 20:40:22 -0700

Thanks, Don. I'll see what I can do. Would you be willing to be on my show with someone else doing the debating? Or are you proposing an alternate format?

R


From: dlane [at] cityofsantacruz.com
To: rnorse3 [at] hotmail.com
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 22:08:44 -0700
Subject: RE: Radio Discussion Sunday: Invitation to the Mayor Don Lane

Happy to spend time with a journalist in my office for an interview. Or in a different location. Also fine with participating in well-organized community forums to talk about issues related to homelessness.

Don Lane
Mayor


From: rnorse3 [at] hotmail.com
To: dlane [at] cityofsantacruz.com
Subject: RE: Radio Discussion Sunday: Invitation to the Mayor Don Lane
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 22:28:59 -0700

I'll speak with Louis La Fortune about a Community TV show.

As I perhaps mentioned in an earlier e-mail, I'm hoping to have Andrea Morgan and another disabled woman reporting discriminatory exclusion on Free Radio Sunday June 17 at 9:30 AM to express concerns about policies and practices out at the Homeless Lack of Services Center.

You are still welcome to come to the studio at that time, to call in, or to send a representative. Or simply to listen. The call-in number is 831-427-3772. The show will ultimately be archived at http://www.radiolibre.org/brb/brb120617.mp3 . The show broadcasts at 101.3 FM and streams at http://tunein.com/radio/FRSC-s47254/ . Since the issue is timely, I'd encourage you to reconsider and show up, since you seem to know how to handle yourself on the air.

In any case, I 'll see if I can make other arrangements as well.

Thanks,

Robert


Community TV has offered to set up a program with Mayor Lane answering questions from John Colby and several disabled homeless clients who claim they were denied services at the Homeless Services Center (which I call the Homeless (Lack of) Services Center[HLOSC]).

As of yesterday, the Mayor had not accepted the invitation from Community TV. John Colby continues to post continuing e-mails indicating the City's (and the HLOSC's) refusal to explicitly address the issues regarding disabled rights that he raises.

You can read more of the e-mail dialogue at , though most of it is unfortunately focused on Lane's ducking the issue by denouncing me as an advocate and others defending me ("How Public Outcry Impacts A Mayor Previously Running For Cover: Lane Agrees To Interview" at http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2012/06/15/18715517.php) .

Since Lane has announced he's running for a second term on the City Council, his public accessibility is particularly important, as well as whether he keeps his promises.

I've e-mailed Lane asking whether he will carry through on this commitment. And I'll keep folks advised as to his response.

There is the case of Steve Lazow, a wheelchair-bound client of the HLOSC, who was evicted from HLOSC for getting a woman friend to help him shower when the staff refused. He was subsequently readmitted a day later after spending a night outside in his wheelchair under threat of trespass arrest.

His advocate John Colby has requested in writing numerous times that
(1) Monica Martinez, Executive Director of the HLOSC, personally apologize to Mr. Lazow and his helper assuring them that they will be able to exercise Mr. Lazow's federally protected disability rights without retaliation by the staff.
(2) Martinez personally ensure that the petitioners, especially Ms. Morgan whom Colby represents and who gathered signatures for the petition protesting Lazow's exclusion, be protected from retaliation and coercion as they acted to assist Mr. Lazow in exercising his federally protected disability rights.
(3) Martinez personally direct her staff in crafting ADA (Americans with Disability Act), Section 504 and Fair Housing compliance policies and procedures — complying with HUD guidelines — to be given to all applicants and staff.
(4) All staff be educated about beneficiaries' rights and staff's responsibilities under the ADA, Section 504, the Fair Housing Act and other applicable nondiscrimination laws.
(5) There be no further discrimination against those complaining about or organizing against improper actions by the staff and management of the the Center.
(6) Specific concerns be addressed in writing instead of through "informal" "off the record" conferences.
(7) Specific complaints from others also be acknowledged and addressed through a written and transparent appeals process.

I don't think these are unreasonable requests.

Don Lane is also on the Board of the HLOSC. In the past he has been unresponsive or hostile to criticisms of Martinez's management policies (that seem tailored to win favor with NIMBY neighbors and "hide out or get out" business owners).

See "Vice-Mayor Lane Joins HSC Executive Director in Stonewalling on Homeless Shelter Questions" at http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2010/12/22/18667405.php
I have a lot of issues to bring up with Santa Cruz Mayor Lane and Homeless Services (HSC) Executive Director Monica Martinez. I have already amassed a lot of documents in my research about the homeless programs located on the HSC campus — I've just begun my research. By the end, I'm going to be a complete expert on these homeless programs, how they're supposed to operate, how they really operate, who's funding them, what laws apply to them, etc.

I'm sorry that Mayor Lane and Ms. Martinez seem to have passed on the TV show forum. I wasn't going to personally attack them — I was going to ask them some hot questions on the issues.

Why are they ducking out of this? Mayor Lane was the one who opened up the discussion with me not vice–versa.
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