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Native Cultural Activists Voices Silenced Again
by Angry NDN
Monday Aug 6th, 2007 9:45 PM
A Native American Consumer Advocacy group, New Age Frauds and Plastic Shamans,
has been repeatedly denied free speech rights on the internetby the very frauds that they expose!
After years of seeing free speech on the internet waning and seeing growing efforts to criminalize dissent, it’s important for everyone to pay attention to this controversy.

A cultural activist group, New Age Frauds and Plastic Shamans has been working tirelessly for nearly a decade to warn unsuspecting consumers of the dangers or becoming involved with those who exploit Native American Spiritual practices for profit. Over they years, the people they expose as frauds have been successful in shutting down their discussion groups and bulletin boards and denying this First Nations’s group their First Amendment Rights. Please pass this information along to anyone who believes in the right to free speech on the internet:

For Immediate Release:

New Age Frauds Plastic Shamans or NAFPS, located online at http://www.newagefraud.org, has been shut down temporanily due to the lies and libel by an English New Age racist, John Lekay, editor of Heyoka Magazine. Lekay is a leading promoter of New Age exploitation and colonialism and seeks to dominate Native spiritual traditions, especially Lakota religion, by promoting a series of fringe characters, all the while silencing Native voices.

Mr. Lekay joined the Newagefraud.org forum a few weeks ago and tried to bully its members into withdrawing our criticism of New Age racism, exploitation, sexual abuse, and greed and commercialism. When we refused to back down, Lekay became abusive, arrogant, childish, and attacked our members, misrepresented the position of Newagfraud.org and the respected Native elders we support, and used foul and abusive language with elderly members, even repeatedly comparing Native elders who oppose the New Age movement to mass murderers.

The moderators banned Lekay for his abusive behavior. He responded by contacting our host with more misrepresentations and false accusations, demanding we take off criticism of him or the New Age exploiters he promoted. When we refused, our host, which has changed owners, shut us down.

Lekay has also contacted many people by e-mail, trying to obtain their support, which failed miserably. The only support he found was from a notorious white supremacist posing as part Comanche, David Yeagley, and one of his leading supporters, a violent racist named John Martin who has issued a number of death threats.

Lekay uses his Heyoka Magazine to publish several libelous articles about Dr Al Carroll, one of the founders of NAFPS, and Annika Banfeld the director of a Swedish charity for Native children who also helped produce a film against the exploitation of American Indian spirituality.

Furthermore, Heyoka Magazine (an on-line project) offers a platform to quite a number of known frauds and exploiters which get introduced as "elders" and serious, genuine persons.

Lekay is an ignorant, paranoid, and dangerous man who stated publicly he believed American Indians still live in tipis. He smears all who disagree with him as FBI and RMCP agents, or even tools of Bush and Cheney.

Lekay is spending huge sums of his own money to produce a film promoting the replacement of Arvol Looking Horse with Suzanne Dupree AKA "Looking Back Woman", an ex hairdresser who has been off the reservation for nearly twenty year yet claims to be the "true" possessor of the Lakota sacred pipe.

Lekay and Dupree have white European New Age supporters presently spreading libel and lies about Looking Horse and his planned trip to Europe to speak against New Age exploiters. While falsely accusing Looking Horse of seeking to sell the sacred pipe to European whites, some of these same European whites themselves are ceremony sellers and promoters of New Age frauds like "Rainbow Eagle" and the so called "Deer Tribe."

NAFPS would be very grateful if you contact a) our host to protest the shutting down of NAFPS, Powerweb Inc. http://www.powerweb.com/
email: admin [at] powerweb.net

b) the server hosting Heyoka Magazine to protest the continuing flow of libelous articles about Dr Al Carroll and other NAFPS members published at this site, as well as take down all libelous articles about Mr. Arvol Looking Horse and other actual elders.

http://www.readyhosting.com email form: http://www.readyhosting.com/support/supportForm.bml

c) Speak out against the lies and libel being spread about NAFPS, Dr. Al Carroll, other individual members of NAFPS, and especially against Arvol Looking Horse. legitimate hereditary Lakota spiritual leader

Thank you very much for your support.

We at NAFPS have been flooded by emails with kind words and people wanting to know what they can do. We'll be online again in a few days and continue to work against fraud and exploitation.

We will NOT be intimidated or silenced, EVER. All Lekay and the racists and exploiters he works have done is be mildly annoying and make themselves look pathetic, small minded, and intolerant.

Regards, New Age Frauds Plastic Shamans

§Please Check Your Facts
by Hostmaster Thursday Nov 1st, 2007 6:41 PM
Please check your facts before posting. Power Web does not, nor never has hosted the website in question. It is bothersome to try to figure out what these people are talking about when the send us an angry letter demanding that we retract our position on something we have nothing to do with.

And even so, it would make no sense as the place that used to host it does not host it and someone else does, so why would they retract their standing on it?

Comments  (Hide Comments)

by Harmony
Thursday Aug 9th, 2007 6:43 AM
There is a fundamental weakness in Native American Consumer Advocacy Groups and they will continue to fail until that weakness is addressed. That weakness is that rez ndn's choose to demonize legitimate off rez ndn peoples who for various reasons, mostly historical reasons, do not qualify as citizens of their nations. There are a great number of non-enrolled off rez ndn people who do posess the culture and lifeways of their ancestors. These are respectful people who live as ndn despite the denials and hostility of their rez brothers and sisters. These ndn people are treated with the same disdain and hostility as new age frauds. This qualifies as agressive ignorance. These actions are harmful because they fail to fully recognize the depth of the effect that the policies of genocide and it's historical aftermath have had on ndn peoples. Instead of taking the time and making an honest effort to look at the history of each individual tribe and the effect that genocide has had on it's people, the typical Native American Consumer Advocacy Group condems "all" off rez non-enrolled ndn people as new age wannabees. By doing so the Native American Consumer Advocacy Groups actually support genocide against their own people by attempting to deny their existence and "cleanse" non-enrolled ndn people out of existence. So in reality these groups have placed themselves at the forefront of genocide. It is unfortunate that the true exploiters of ndn culture get lost in the careless mindset of ndn on ndn genocide.

I can predict with accuracy that the first thing that will come to a rez ndn's mind regarding my comments is denial. That denial is no different than the white man's denial. It is the same. It is just another form of genocide. Native American Consumer Advocacy groups fail because the exist devoid of moral standing. Extremism is blind.
by John LeKay
Thursday Aug 9th, 2007 4:50 PM
Angry NDN, free speech does not mean one cannot libel with out facing consequences. Like his associate Trisha Jacobs before him with her website who also made the same mistakes. Not only did she have to take her site down, but had to leave the country and live in Belgium. This is what can happen when you deliberately defame and libel people out of hate, spite, vengeance, envy, or any other reason. See my comments below. If you have any questions please feel free to contact me at info [at] heyokamagazine.com

August 7th 2007

Dr. Al Carroll: "New Age Frauds Plastic Shamans or NAFPS, located online at Newagefraud.org has been shut down temporarily due to the lies and libel by an English New Age racist, John Lekay, editor of Heyoka Magazine. Lekay is a leading promoter of New Age exploitation and colonialism and seeks to dominate Native spiritual traditions, especially Lakota religion, by promoting a series of fringe characters, all the while silencing Native voices."

John LeKay: Libel Number 1. I have never tried to silence anyone's voice or promoted New Age exploiters. Interviewing people and asking questions to access the truth is not promoting them. I have interviewed over 112 people. Does that mean I promoted all these people? Even the ones I disagreed with? This is totally absurd.

How could I silence all the native voices across the US? That is ridiculous. What I have done is provide a platform to do the exact opposite so their voices could be heard. So that the injustices, human rights abuses, the environmental issues, the poverty and the rest are disseminated as wide as possible. Also see other site http://www.silkwoodproject.com

Dr Al Carroll: "Mr Lekay joined the Newagefraud. org forum a few weeks ago and tried to bully its members into withdrawing our criticism of New Age racism, exploitation, sexual abuse, and greed and commercialism."

John LeKay: Libel Number 2. I asked for evidence of proof that these people were "frauds, perverts, sham-ons, feces, rapists, lost wonder breads, perverts, exploiters". Al Carroll and his group could not substantiate their claims, email gossip, hearsay, speculation and assumptions. I was viciously attacked by Al Carroll and co and was called a child, racist, insane, loon, rambler, cross dresser, conspiracy theorist, ignorant, propagator of genocide and pedophile interviewer and more; on various forums such as http://www.indianz.com etc. I was also told I act as if I have no family, "the worst of all Native American insults" according to him. Please see below.

Al Carroll: In Indian Country one of the worst insults is "He acts like he has no family." That's the way you've sometimes behaved".

JL: That's an interesting insult and have not heard that one before. Again to me insult like offense is a matter of choice. Not something that happens to you or is out of one's control. I take no insult at the worst of your insults and again see it as more projection on your part. You would get further by looking into the mirror and speaking to yourself. To be frank with you, I take any insults from you as a compliment and shows I'm really on the right track.

Al Carroll: "When we refused to back down, Lekay became abusive, arrogant, childish, and attacked our members, misrepresented the position of Newagfraud.org and the respected Native elders we support, and used foul and abusive language with elderly members, even repeatedly comparing Native elders who oppose the New Age movement to mass murderers."

John LeKay: Libel Number 3. This is in reference to Tachia Hawk. The woman that called Looking Back Woman and Mala Spotted Eagle frauds, sham ons, feces, lost wonder bread children. No foul language was used by myself. Not even once. Please see below.

Al Carroll: "Didn't your family teach you to respect those older than you?'

JL: Alton, Just because someone is older is not always a reason to give them respect. Charles Manson is much older than me but he is also a murderer. I cannot respect anyone I have seen solid evidence to be a gossip and a slanderer.

Al Carroll: "The moderators banned Lekay for his abusive behavior."

JL: Libel Number 4. I was banned from NAFPS because I would not react to his name calling. When all else failed and Al saw he was miserably loosing the debate, he hit the delete button and banned me. Please see below.

http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.9.ALCarrollMendaciousness.htm

He also banned me because they could not provide me with substantiated evidence of the people they were accusing as frauds, perverts and more. As far as calling Mala Spotted Eagle a rapist and more on NAFPS and on indianz.com; I investigated this and found out he was never charged in Europe of rape. This was complete fabrication and libel. This began last year with Corbin Harney's book that Al Carroll did not want published. Because Mala was associated with him, he went after him as well.

Al Carroll: "He responded by contacting our host with more misrepresentations and false accusations, demanding we take off
criticism of him or the New Age exploiters he promoted. When we refused, our host, which has changed owners, shut us down."

John LeKay: Libel Number 5. I only contacted the POW WEB hosting company after seeing more libel about accusing me of being people I was not on the NAFPS site and more libel like saying I was making a film to smear Arvol Looking Horse and more.

Al Carroll was graciously given 48 hours to remove the libel, and then an extra two and a half days. In total 4 and a half days. He self sabotaged his own site by not listening to his own hosting company.

He not only not remove this libel, but he then posted his own web hosting company's lawyer's warning letter and my confidential letter online. He then allowed more comments and threats about this letter by others, like posting this letter on http://www.indianz.com. Such as having me" torn apart by Pit Bulls and Dobermans". This is considered harassment and in violation of his terms of service. See left.

Al Carroll obviously violated Pow Web's terms of service and his legal contact by indulging in libel, harassment, intimidation, prejudice, maliciousness, defamatory comments etc.

I can easily prove this libel and that's why he was taken offline. The same way I can easily prove that what he states in this email is also libel. He did this to himself. This situation could have easily been remedied. I never asked for his site to be removed. I simply asked for a remedy to remove this libel and my private home address, street address, from his site.

Al Carroll: "Lekay has also contacted many people by e-mail, trying to obtain their support, which failed miserably. The only support he found was from a notorious white supremacist posing as part Comanche, David Yeagley, and one of his leading supporters, a violent racist named John Martin who has issued a number of death threats."

John LeKay: Libel Number 6. John Martin is a full blood Lakota and not a white supremacist, who had photos of his wife and two small children posted by Al Carroll on his website.


As far as I know, David Yeagley is a Comanche and a musician who has been under attack by Al Carroll and Brent Michel Davids for years and is not a white supremacist either. This is typical. Anyone who disagrees with Al Carroll is labeled a racist, a white supremacist, fraud, child, insane, ignorant, paranoid, dangerous, violent, pervert, rapist, pedophile interviewer, cross dresser, wing nut, loon, crackpot, Rasputin (his latest label for me) and much worse. When he can't use logic and is losing a debate, he reverts to name calling as if he is still living on the street or a gang member; not a PhD college professor.

Al Carroll: "Lekay uses his Heyoka Magazine to publish several libelous articles about Dr Al Carroll, one of the founders of NAFPS, and Annika Banfeld the director of a Swedish charity for Native children who also helped produce a film against the exploitation of American Indian spirituality."

John LeKay: Libel Number 7. These articles are interviews with Jimmy La Vallee, who was slandered and libeled by Al Carroll, and Robin, an ex NAFPS member and respected NA elder who was also attacked by him. Also an interview with Thomas Lightning Bolt after he was slandered and ridiculed; an article questioning Al Carroll's claims of being a Mescalero apache. Please see below

http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.9.JayeLaValle.Letter.htm


http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.8.Robin.htm


http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.8.MUSIC.Tommy.2.htm


http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.8.IsALCarrolAFraud.htm

Al Carroll: "Furthermore, Heyoka Magazine (an on-line project) offers a platform to quite a number of known frauds and exploiters which get introduced as "elders" and serious, genuine persons."

John LeKay: Libel Number 8. Again, provide proof of them being frauds and exploiters. Substantiate your claims? Not gossip, speculation or hearsay. Where is the evidence of selling ceremony, making money, etc, etc, etc.

Al Carroll: "Lekay is an ignorant, paranoid, and dangerous man who stated publicly he believed American Indians still live in tipis."

John LeKay: Libel Number 9. I have never stated that NAs live in Tipis. This is pure ludicrousness and more mendacity. Another absolute lie!

Al Carroll: "He smears all who disagree with him as FBI and RMCP agents, or even tools of Bush and Cheney."

John LeKay: Libel Number 10. I asked Barnaby McEwan ( "Alternative" English man and NAFPS administrator) if he was in the FBI after he was attacking Kevin Annett and his film "unrepentant". As far as I know, only one other person has attempted to stop this film other than these agencies, other than Al Carroll. So it seems Dr. Al Carroll, the FBI and the RMCP have a lot in common in silencing the genocide, rape and molestation of 50,000 Canadian native children. Why would anyone in good conscience want to do this? See film below, then you decide.


Al Carroll: "Lekay is spending huge sums of his own money to produce a film promoting the replacement of Arvol Looking Horse with Suzanne Dupree AKA "Looking Back Woman", an ex hairdresser who has been off the reservation for nearly twenty year yet claims to be the "true" possessor of the Lakota sacred pipe."

John LeKay: Libel Number 11. This is pure 100 percent libel again. I do not even know Louie Lawless the filmmaker. I interviewed him once last year. I never met Looking Back Woman and also interviewed her last year and have zero to do with this film - Absolutely NOTHING! This is another reason why he was kicked of his site since this can easily be proved by asking the filmmaker Louie Lawless himself. Any web hosting lawyer can send him an email and find this out. You can't go around lying about people like this online these days and not expect consequences.

Al Carroll: "Lekay and Dupree have white European New Age supporters presently spreading libel and lies about Looking Horse and his planned trip to Europe to speak against New Age exploiters. While falsely accusing Looking Horse of seeking to sell the sacred pipe to European whites, some of these same European whites themselves are ceremony sellers and promoters of New Age frauds like "Rainbow Eagle" and the so called "Deer Tribe."


John LeKay: Libel Number 12. I have no European supporters or any idea who "Rainbow Eagle" is or this "Deer Tribe". This is more of the same libel and misinformation. The only person I can think of who I know who has questioned this film and issue is by a very well known Lakota activist and elder named Alfred Bone Shirt. He is apparently in this film - Spirits for Sale. Please see here.

http://www.argusleader.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070801/NEWS/708010325

I do know for a fact that Al Carroll is in this film called "Spirits for Sale" This film also includes Arvol Looking Horse and is about the exploitation of ceremonies. It's ironic that the filmmaker is a long time NAFPS member. Al Carroll is in it and is the the NAFPS founder. The person I interviewed, Looking Back Woman, has presented archival historical information concerning Martha Bad Warrior (picture left with canunpa wakan) that obviously Al does not care to see. Please see link below.

http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.6.MARTHA.PAGES.9.htm

I have not seen this film so I cannot comment on it and will reserve my comments until I do so. I have never said one negative word about Arvol Looking Horse. I asked two questions about him in an interview with Looking Back Woman. Please see below.


Question 1. JL: So then. Arvol Looking Horse, the other sacred pipe keeper, has the deteriorating calf pipe, made from the bone of the buffalo leg, eagle feather, 4 scalps and ear, etc, etc.

You have the red stone pipe described by John fire Lame Deer. Is this the same pipe as the one described by Martha Bad Warrior, with the engravings of a white buffalo head, turtle and the spider?

Question 2. JL: Do you know of anyone who has seen Arvol Looking Horse's Canunpa or has photographed it recently?

LBW: Martha allowed Riegert to photograph It, when she gave him the interview....he showed Lucy Looking Horse the photo after Martha died, and even though it clearly was her also in the photo with her Mother, Martha and the Cannunpa...Riegert said Lucy denied being there. Riegert, knowing Andrew had the Canunpa passed to him, asked Lucy to see the Cannunpa, and you have to remember this is 1936, she asked for a hundred dollars for him to see the Cannunpa. He asked if It had the Spider,Turtle, Buffalo designs on It, she said no...they had another Cannunpa now for Ceremony. This is in Riegerts book.... See below
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.6.FEATURES.%20LBW.PART.1.htm

I have posted Arvol Looking Horse's response to a recent article by Alfred Bone Shirt to present his side of the story and also his sister, Martina's, post. See below. You might notice I never posted Alfred Bone Shirt's article in order to give this some balance and fairness. So it's not just one sided against Arvol Looking Horse.

http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.9.ArvolResponse.htm

http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.8.MartinaLookingHorse.htm

I have also offered to interview Arvol Looking Horse on NAFPS forum and the invitation remains open. He would have the same space and opportunity to tell his side of this story in Heyoka Magazine. Al Carroll is attempting to make it appear as if I have something against Arvol Looking Horse and am out to smear him. This is a 100 percent LIE. Asking questions to get at the truth is not trying to smear someone.

Annika Banfeid is also a long time NAFPS member and has said on the NAFPS record that she was inspired to make this film because of Al Carroll and her affiliation with NAFPS. I can easily infer that this is why he is attacking me, but I will refrain from doing so since this is more speculation.

I do not know Annika Banfield other than some email correspondence and her judging medicine elders on NAFPS and have nothing against her film. Why would I, since I have not even seen it. According to Christina Olinger of Sceptic Tank, Annika Banfield's charity organization, World in Our Hands in Sweden was involved with Trisha Jacobs, the libelous Jewish Cherokee imposter. See here http://www.trishajacobs.com She was another self proclaimed internet guardian and ended up closing down her website for libel lawsuites and more.

John leKay
Editor
http://www.heyokamagazine.com













by John LeKay
Thursday Aug 9th, 2007 4:57 PM
Kindly visit this page to read the above comments. The words above got jumbled together when publishing.

http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.9.ResponseToAlcarroll.htm


by Tom C
Thursday Aug 9th, 2007 5:32 PM
Lekay and his ilk are despicable racist pieces of slime, but instead of sinking to their level and attacking them personally, I wish someone would attack the bullshit arguments they put forward.
The thing that the fools on the Left who support them should pay attention to is that when asked for evidence to back up their ridiculous claims, Lekay and the quack pack go on racist tirades worthy of Michael Richards. This is a reflection of the people themselves. Greedy, selfish and driven by massive egos and the opportunistic desire to make lots of money off the gullible fools that are looking to the past for answers. The lesson to be learned her is that this is what inevitably happens to soulless Euros who follow the Nazi belief that one must return to religion of his ancestors and worship of primal laws of nature. This only makes one vulnerable to racist ideologies and it does nothing to improve conditions in the present. The Left needs to get out of the twinkie sweat lodge and into the streets.
I've visited this magazine.
It's deeply offensive.

The only libel I see is that directed at Alton Carroll, John Trudell and Arvol Looking Horse.

Remember truth is an absolute defense in any libel case.

As I remember, Mr. Carroll’s allegations against you were supported by strong empirical evidence.

There is no spiritual wisdom being sold on these pages. Just New Age hokum.

This site merely reinforces the various romantic stereotypes and deliberate misconceptions of Indigenous spirituality that currently popular with the trendy Left.

You should be ashamed of yourslef.

by Thomas C
Thursday Aug 9th, 2007 6:14 PM
Really? That's a lot of power! Exactly which Consumer advocacy group has this much power? I thought the Federal government created and controlled blood quantum. Can you be more specific in your irrational allegations?
by John LeKay
Thursday Aug 9th, 2007 6:25 PM
Good Evening Tom C,
Please allow me to introduce my self.
"Lekay and his ilk are despicable racist pieces of slime, but instead of sinking to their level and attacking them personally, I wish someone would attack the bullshit arguments they put forward"

You just contradicted yourself and have already sunk to your own level and just attacked yourself in the process.
Why do you wish for someone would come forth and attack the "bullshit" arguments. Why cant you do this yourself?
Here it is.
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.9.ResponseToAlcarroll.htm
JL
by John LeKay
Thursday Aug 9th, 2007 6:49 PM

A. I think its best to forward your John Trudell comments to Bob Robideau since it was his article and words, not mine.

B. As far as Arvol Looking Horse is concerned, you obviously did not read the interview with Looking Back Woman. Or my comments. I have not said one negative word about him. If you can find one please show me.

C. Now if you would like to address Al Carrols libel, "supported by his stoing empirical evidence" That's something else.

D. As far as spiritual wisdom is concerned, romantic stereotypes and misconceptions, can you please be more specific?

F. As far as shame is concerned, do you feel any shame for supporting a proven libelist?




by John LeKay
Thursday Aug 9th, 2007 8:04 PM
When public men indulge themselves in abuse, when they deny others a fair trial, when they resort to innuendo and insinuation, to libel, scandal, and suspicion, then our democratic society is outraged, and democracy is baffled.
J. William Fulbright

7 LAWS OF NAFPS

1. NAFPS gives no person a fair trial.

2. They are tried and executed in most cases behind the persons back.

3. They do not even have the common decency to alert the person they are gossiping and libeling.

4. Like cowards they resort to using pseudonyms.

5. If confronted or challenged the person is attacked, insulted, libeled some more.

6. Then their words are distorted and deleted.

7. Then they are libeled more on forums like this.
by Red Diaper Skeptic
Friday Aug 10th, 2007 11:05 AM
Your claims of libel are patently ridiculous.

Everyone in NDN country knows you as a silly European wannabe trying to get rich by helping your twinkie friends sell fake Native spirituality to gullible Europeans who traded their souls for comfort. The so-called teachings of your cronies are ridiculous and misrepresent the true spiritual practices of the Lakota, the Cherokee, the Comanche and several other native nations.

The legal definition of libel is: “the publication and distribution of false information regarding an individual which is defamatory in nature, and has been published and distributed with malicious intent.” The key words contained in this definition are “false information.” If a writer can establish that the information they have written and published is true, then they have made their case. What you seem want your audience to overlook is that truth is an absolute defense against specious charges of libel. I visited the NAFPS forum on several occasions and I believe they have made their case against you.

In an important free speech case, New York Times v.
Sullivan (1964), the Supreme Court held that public figures
could not sue for defamation unless they could show that the
publisher (1) knew that what it was publishing was false, or
(2) unless the publisher was "reckless" about the truth of
what it published. If the reporter knew the story was false,
then there would be liability.

Everything that was published about you and the frauds you try to promote can be verified. NAFPS has free speech rights to warn the public about unscrupulous people such as yourself. There is no more a case for libel here as there was for all the corporations that tried to sue Ralph Nader for engaging in the exact same type of activity.

You know very well that you have been notified by numerous legitimate Native organizations that your publication is offensive and exploitive and you chose to ignore their complaints.

NAFPS has an impeccable reputation with legitimate Native organizations
Anyone who has questions can contact the AIM grand governing council and check them out.
AIMGGC [at] worldnet.att.net


I have every confidence that NAFPS integrity will stand the test of time. I have no confidence that yours will.


by Red Diaper Skeptic
Friday Aug 10th, 2007 11:10 AM
Everyone who supports NAFPS right to expose John LeKay as the unscrupulous individual that he is can take this action:

legal @ readyhosting-inc.com

Tell Ready Hosting Inc. that Lekay and Martin are guilty of violating
their TOS for the following:

1. The access, monitor or disruption of another's account, computer,
computer network, or security measures.

Lekay and Martin have repeatedly tried to disrupt NAFPS under
multiple accounts and identities based from Ready Hosting Inc.

2. Other Illegal Activities. Customers are not allowed to engage in
activities that are deemed illegal by ReadyHosting.

Lekay and Martin are engaged in libel and, were they to actually go
to a court and repeat their libel, also would be guilty of perjury.

3. Offensive Communication - harassment, defamation, libel and hate
speech.

Lekay and Martin have repeatedly defamed, harassed, libeled, and
engaged in hate speech against American Indians, American Indian
elders and activists, and NAFPS and Arvol Looking Horse in
particular.

Martin has also repeatedly engaged in hate speech against Mexicans,
Muslims, Arabs, Blacks, and American Indians. Lekay and Martin are
openly supporters of white supremacist and John Birch Society member
David Yeagley.

Lekay also has repeatedly compared American Indians to mass
murderers, FBI agents, and tools of Bush and Cheney.

4. The act, or intention, of intimidating, threatening or otherwise
tormenting others using our services. Harassment can result from the
language used, or the frequency or size of a message. Hate speech or
literature includes, but is not limited to, anything that prejudices,
creates a hostile bias or grossly defames a group.

See above.

Tell Read Hosting Inc. to quit hosting racism and bigotry, to quit
using its site to defame American Indian activists and
traditionalists, and quit defaming, libeling, and spreading numerous
lies about NAFPS, Dr. Al Carroll, World In Our Hands Foundation, and
Arvol Looking Horse by these racist and exploiters!

All are welcome to use this email as a model.
Thank you,
NAFPS



Mr. LeKay,

As you suggested, I attempted to contact John LeKay at info [at] heyokamagazine.com to see if he could provide any evidence whatsoever that Mala Spotted Eagle, Red Elk, Sequoya Trueblood and several other well known twinkies and wannabees had any legitimate ties to Indigenous communities and that they were entitled, by the traditional understanding of entitlement, to conduct ceremonies for profit. I received an extremely irrational and abusive email from someone called John Martin. Please be advised that all potential consumers have to right to be assured of the authenticity of anyone claiming to sell such services, regardless of their race. Suggesting otherwise would be a violation of Federal law. I’m sure you’ll want to correct the way Mr. Martin has been representing your publication. Mr. Martin’s offensive racial comments directed towards me failed to convince me that the allegations made towards Mr. Carroll, Mr. Trudeau or Mr. Looking Horse have any merit whatsoever.

Mr. LeKay, you are being extremely evasive of the real issue here. Since you have not been forthcoming in answering many people's questions about why the individuals you feature in your publication are entitled to conduct ceremony for profit; you have made such a effort to introduce the red herring of Mr. Carroll's tribal enrollment status; and you have introduced the red herring of the race of the skeptics involved in his group, you have no credibility in my eyes.

Mr. Caroll, to my knowledge, is not selling ceremonies for money so his enrollment status is irrelevant here. What is relevant is the enrollment status of the individuals you support who are selling ceremony for profit. Mr. Carroll and the members of his group are merely pointing out that it is inappropriate for the individuals that your publication supports to conduct pay-to-pray scams and that the "indigenous wisdom" they are selling is inauthentic. This is the function of consumer advocacy groups. They have a long and honorable tradition in this country of protecting consumers from being tricked into wasting their hard earned dollars on bogus and worthless products. The members of NAFPS are well within their First Amendment rights to caution naïve consumers about such products. I have read all the posts you mentin and I found nothing libelous. Your behavior was horrific and any moderator would have been justified in banning you. You selectively mention only the minority of European posters and fail to mention the diversity of native nations represented in the NAFSP membership. This also greatly lessens your credibility in my mind.

Additionally, there is no blood quantum requirement for skepticism. All that is required of a skeptic is a functioning brain. Judging from the long irrational diatribe you just posted which is filled with logical fallacies and ad hominem attacks; this is something you are noticeably lacking. I suggest that you spend less time helping your friends commodify Indigenous spiritual practices and more time sharpening your critical thinking skills.

Maria
by TelltheTruth
Saturday Aug 11th, 2007 2:32 PM
Let's be truthful shall we? This group, NAFPS represents no one but themselves and their own sick agenda. The vast majority of the membership is not Native American, but people from Europe, or people who claim they are, but they are not.

Groups like this were once spread everywhere until Internet Laws and lawsuits started to be filed about the false allegations and libelous statements they would make about anyone who disagrees with them, or who stands up to them and refuses to take their abuse. To take a stand, is to encourage even more abuse from this group. Fortunately, internet laws have prevented their harassment via email and now web hosts are beginning to realize that they are not worth the time, effort or expense, so they shut them down, which they should do.

With all the allegations they have made recently, they have provided no proof at all. When they allege someone is a culture vulture or selling ceremonies, they present no documented evidence, such as filming such events, obtaining records which proves money has changed hands, (they could even use notices of such events which would contain this information if the person is a fake).

What they do time and time again, is allege, insinuate, twist things around and of course, back one another up to prove what? That they are fools, who are so insecure about who they are, that they have appointed themselves guardians of Indian nations' traditions and ceremonies when these nations are more than able to handle such matters and not in the manner in which these people operate.

Tricia Jacobs, who claims to be Cherokee, is not Cherokee, but she had a website with the word respect on it, written in the Cherokee language. She never showed one bit of respect to anyone, even to herself. She ripped people to shreds on her website and when the individual was naive and thought if the contacted her they could deal with her allegations reasonably, she would take their email and put it on her website, and rip them to shreds again. She was in total control or so she thought, until people, who were fed up with her attacks, began to file lawsuits against her and she took her website down because as she claimed at the time, "she was tired of being attacked." You would think that feeling that way herself, she would learn what she had been doing to people for years.

Some of the people they have mentioned as being fakes are. But they have no right to harass people and print their personal information online on their websites, or to make so many allegations without providing proof of those allegations. They provide no proof - nothing! Where is their proof?

Yet, when they are called on what they are doing wrong, and their websites are removed for violations of the Terms of Services for use, they start crying about how their freedom of speech is being taken from them; they start whining that they are being attacked because they are Native American Indians, their freedoms are being denied to them and on and on. This is the same response that has been used by many other websites that have been removed for the same reasons.

They do not represent any American Indian nations. No Elder would ever approve of the tactics they employ towards others. This claim they make, is an outright lie and they know it.

Our Elders teach us to be respectful of all people, that if we cannot get along with others, just to go our own way and let them go theirs, because the Great Mystery will tend to judgement of all people. It is not their job to charge, judge and harass others. If they find an individual who is selling ceremony for an example, then they should go to that nation's tribal council and let the tribal council handle it.

It is impossible to stop every website on the internet that they do not agree with. They got away with that for a very long time, but now, thankfully, there are laws to protect the innocent from such unjustified attacks.

John LeKay has a online ezine. They have made many allegations against him, and in doing so, they have shown great disrespect to the true Native Elders who Mr. LeKay has interviewed in the past. He has also presented news items about Native Americans. I have seen nothing in his articles that show anything but a publisher presenting articles for any reader who wishes to read it.

They claim he is attacking Chief Arvol Looking Horse. This is a lie - but I wonder, why aren't they harassing Chief Looking Horse's sister, who made some very unkind statements about her own brother in the local mainstream press? Or other statements that have been made against Chief Arvol Looking Horse, by many well-known activists who are definitely Lakota and live on the reservation? Why aren't they attacking Alfred Boneshirt for an example? He has made many statements about his own concerns about the Sacred Pipe, as have many other Lakota people. The charges being made by many natives against the Chief are even of a criminal nature in some respects - why aren't they supporting the Chief in this regard?

They do nothing of good for anyone. They talk about fakes and twinkies, yet they are dealing with Europeans in Sweden of all places and worrying about educating them. Why don't they spend that time in true worthwhile endeavors with native people and work on the reservations, work with the youth, etc?

People are desperately needed to cut firewood at Rosebud and Pineridge. Items such as saw blades and other things are desperately needed by native volunteers to help the people who live there before another cold winter sets in and the elders and families freeze to death in their homes, which has happened too many times.

Why don't they help support the efforts of one Lakota family to harvest hemp so they can start a company, offer employment to their own people and become more self-reliant? There are so many good things they could be doing, but they call this activism. They prefer to slander, hurt, and lie about other people because it makes them feel powerful and in control.

They make decent and good native people ashamed by their actions.

Al Carroll has an education, it's too bad he wastes it in such a way that he does. I'd also like to know how much money they are making off the native people with their books and now this upcoming movie? Those Swedish people rather than spend thousands of dollars for air fare to fly people such as Chief Looking Horse over to Sweden would have done so much better by donating that money for fuel assistance for the upcoming winter, for personal items, clothing, pot, pans - household goods that the people so desperately need. Instead, everyone seems to be more concerned with making a name for themselves and that helps no one but them."
by Mzzz CoDy ReNee representing that k-town h-to
(holy_shiznit [at] hotmail.com) Saturday Aug 11th, 2007 5:06 PM
Now look Twinkie-Winkie!

It’s standard practice among the educated, fair-minded and sane population to accept the null
hypothesis (i.e. you are full of it) UNTIL an extraordinary claim is proven by convincing evidence.
You seen to be unable to construct a cogent argument. The quantity of Non Sequiturs, Ad hominem attacks and Tu Quoque fallacies you have spewed across cyber space does not trump single quality argument. In your case I think less would be more. In order to construct a cogent argument, your premises are supposed to be relevant to your conclusion. Just tossing around lots of things you think the public will associate with evil and trying to link them to the people who always win arguments with you is not intelligent debate. Stop with the red herrings already and either show us convincing evidence that Red Elk speaks Cree with Big Foot or shut up!


holy shiznit [at] hotmail.com

Mzzz CoDy ReNee representing that k-town h-town!

by Old Dawg Without any Trickz
Saturday Aug 11th, 2007 5:37 PM
Dawg, what part of prove your claims do you not understand?????

People keep asking for you to prove that these alleged elders Twinkle-boy keeps "interviewing" are legit. Who are THEY? Where do THEIR people come from? Where do they get their alleged powers? If they were legit you'd be more than williing to say. You're just mad because you can't distract anyone from the issue of your fakeness anymore.

NAFPS never claimed to speak for anyone. They just happen to have the time to keep track of all the fools trying to sell this manure to the gullible Cauks. This dog and pony show is obviously just for taking money from Euros who wannabe spitchul. You had a sweet scam running and you're just mad the some real ndns found out about it and messed everything up for you! No ndn would believe the crap you're trying to sell! NAFPS just represents common sense here, nothing else.

Show me a video of Red Elk's power to communicate with big foot. Show me those other loons contacting space aliens in the sweat lodge. Show me the crystal skull talking to the trailor park set about the mysteries of the universe. If you could prove that one of these crackpots you've "interviewed" were elders then native people would respect you instead of being outraged by your outlandish lies about our spiritual practices -- which are none of your business. Why don't you just get a real job?

Claiming someone has libeled you because you failed to produce evidence for your woo woo claims just makes you look completely crazy dawg! The more you rant, the loonier you look so just keep it up. Eventually even the Cauks will see what a barking moon bat you are.

by antoinette
Sunday Aug 12th, 2007 1:56 AM
This kind of attack looks like something created by the same idiots who designed manifest destiny. Remember that? Prove you deserve power by conquering your "enemies" at any cost. And that makes you right, no matter the motives, results or massacres. Divide and conquer an old tactic of colonizers. Seems a little too alive and well these days on the net. Ouch.


That is, once when I first arrived in Indian Country 26 years, once back then an old ndn guy said..."it's good we are all together again. That means there is hope for us as humans." Well he be about flopping in his grave right now. To see all this hate coming from indians toward people like LeKay who started an online zine with a vision of art can heal what all else destroys.


Perhaps the biggest problem LeKay has is not knowing who in Indian Country he can trust, who he should shun. Probably he is learning the hard way when it comes to Yeagley who proclaims John BIrch connections. Ouch....twice.

Meantime. Arvol Looking Horse has had problems because of the Wolakota Foundation which does appear to some people to be selling medicine. It is complicated and painful for Arvol, I am sure. And something which he and his family need to resolve. Prayers for all them would help.

Trudell a fed? Well of course. He testifed FOR THE PROSECUTION in the Looking Cloud trials. He identified FOR THE FBI the identity for John Graham. But why blame Lekay for these comments. He's right. Talk to Bob Robideau. Bob was once good friends with Trudell. Why slay the messanger, Lekay? He is a publisher trying to present all sides of a story. Look how he gave us Arvol's sister and Arvol. Trying to balance. Things. Trudell had Hendriks to float his boat. LeKay has given all of them equal airtime.

Maybe all the hate here would be best buried to survive these times as humans. New age shamans back in the old days were left to spiritual leaders to handle. In their own quiet way. LONG before websites arrived.

antoinette.
by Apache woman
Sunday Aug 12th, 2007 10:09 AM

"As you suggested, I attempted to contact John LeKay at info [at] heyokamagazine.com to see if he could provide any evidence whatsoever that Mala Spotted Eagle, Red Elk, Sequoya Trueblood and several other well known twinkies and wannabees had any legitimate ties to Indigenous communities and that they were entitled, by the traditional understanding of entitlement, to conduct ceremonies for profit"


DR AL CARROLL:  QUOTE LeKay is being deliberately dense. I have my father's last name, and he's Irish. My mom's side is Apache. There's no reason Harlyn would know me. Like about half of all NDNs I'm not enrolled. I've always been open about that.

APACE WOMAN: Apaches (all bands) are matrilineal.  This means that we identify ourselves through our mother's bloodlines, clans and such.  Whenever I meet another Apache or Yavapai I introduce myself and announce my mother's name and grandmother's name.  My grandmother's name is one that most tribal members recognize to this day, though most know my mother too.  Of course I have a different last name than my mother and grandmother due to marriage, but still I announce my mother's and grandmother's names.

My question is this Al (if you read this) why wouldn't Harlyn Geronimo or Wendall Chino know your mother by her maiden name?  Or even her mother, your grandmother?  This should be common knowledge at Mescalero especially amongst the members still residing there.

I'll have to inquire with my Mescalero kin in regards to your claim of being a descendant of them.

And another thing, what gives you the right to do all that you have done in judging the Indianness of others over at Indianz.com?  You're not enrolled and certainly haven't announce how you descend from such a great people - The Mescalero Apache, except to say, "my mother".  Well, announce her name and that of your grandmother because that's what we're taught to do when introducing ourselves.  You're attempting to make a name for yourself on a national level and claim to speak for the "Apache" nation of which there is none because we're all independent bands, with independent governments, united by a common culture and language and you certainly don't speak for my nation, got it!
by John LeKay
Sunday Aug 12th, 2007 11:35 AM
Red Diaper skeptic" The legal definition of libel is: “the publication and distribution of false information regarding an individual which is defamatory in nature, and has been published and distributed with malicious intent.” The key words contained in this definition are “false information.” If a writer can establish that the information they have written and published is true, then they have made their case. What you seem want your audience to overlook is that truth is an absolute defense against specious charges of libel. I visited the NAFPS forum on several occasions and I believe they have made their case against you. truth is an absolute defense against specious charges of libel

JL: You can believe anything you like but you cant even see the elephant in the living room. That's why he was thrown offline or threw him self offline for which looks like he is now attempting to spin the negative press into a publicity stunt to promote his website and his Swedish friends film. He had 4 and a half days to remove the libel. It was his choice.

Red Diaper skeptic: "What you seem want your audience to overlook is that truth is an absolute defense against specious charges of libel"

JL: Then he has zero defense if he is counting on the truth. Why don't you ask the filmmaker Louie Lawless if I am making a film about Looking Back Woman to smear Arvol Looking Horse? This is his undoing and his self sabotage. Do you really believe he is out to promote and advertise the Louis Lawless film on Looking back Woman, when his Swedish film is coming out any day now with Looking Horse. Do you really believe for one second people don't see through all of this absurd silly nonsense.
The only people who cant see this are the sleep walking gullible European nafps members with a vested interest in this film. Annika Banfield, aka, Freja, (long time nafps member) invested 100,000 dolor's in this film She also has two books coming out on the white buffalo calf people as well. $18.99 a pop or more.

This is the same person who included the Jewish Trisha Jacobs in her book "they call us Indians." $18.99. The same book with Al Carroll. Check her out. Why don't you question the characters in that book. see this. "We have published three books to inform people about the abuse of ceremonies'

They Call us Indians (2004) - Swedish and English
The Buffalocalf woman´s People (2007) - Swedish
Voices from the Buffalocalf woman´s People (2007) - Swedish
We are also involved in the production of a documentary "Spirits for Sale" (2007)
 More info on this book and film and how to order it you'll find on Annika Banfield her website: http://www.world-foundation.nu

Red diaper skeptic. You are all barking up the wrong tree. See here. http://www.argusleader.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070801/NEWS/708010325

by John LeKay
Sunday Aug 12th, 2007 1:58 PM
Mzzz CoDy ReNee,

Thank you. These are all the strategies of Mr Carroll and napfs in a nut shell. He is the master of Tu quoque arguments, red herrings, non Sequiturs and infantile ad hominem attacks .
This began with my questioning his group calling LBW a fraud. Then ended up with me being called a fraud, racist, propagator of genocide, interviewer of pedophiles, loon crackpot, Ward Churchill, conspiracy theorist and more.

What has this got to do with Red Elk? He was never even raised up until two days ago on Indianz? He is now a Red herring. I really don't think sasquatch or Santa clause is going to come to your emotional rescue and help your case.

Al Carroll brought this heat on himself. Now as a result of his alleging people are frauds, now lots and lots of more people want to know if he is apache. If he is then I see he has no problem. Its already been two months and he still cant answer a simple question like the apache woman just asked him.

This is called every action has an opposite and equal reaction.

If you would like to start at the very beginning and follow the simple logic and address LBW and her claims, Mala Spotted eagle etc, then why don't you do so? If not, then I suggest you shut up!

by Louie Lawless
Sunday Aug 12th, 2007 3:12 PM


John LeKay is in no way involved with any film that I am doing or going to do, and he is not financing any film with me or for me.

Thanks Louie Lawless
by andypandy
Sunday Aug 12th, 2007 4:19 PM
Mr. Carrol is a spoiled little child who is crying because someone finally knocked him on his arse. One up for Mr. Lekay for standing his ground. The folks Carrol run with are mainly foreigners who love to hear themselves talk.
Thank you Lekay for the stand and the wolverine spirit.
by Betty from Kitchener Ontario
(Kitchenergrrl @gmail.com) Sunday Aug 12th, 2007 5:59 PM
1.) Everyone has a tendency to laugh at their ridiculous claims and it deflates their SHAME-men's egos
2.) Their sob stories are ineffectual
3.) They can't sue the anonymous posters or intimidate them into silence
4.) NAFPS posters know too much about how to identify logical fallicies
5.) NAFPS don't accept channelled messages from space aliens as proof that someone should be making himself a medicine man
6.) NAFPS refuse to accept statements on faith or look at good intentions
7.) Real ndns make them nervous - someone from the rez they claim to be from might recognize the fake names they're using
8.) NAFPS members don't have a lot of disposible income to blow on their half baked scams
9.) Rich whites may find the sight and escape the brainwashing the ego-gurus do to make them blow all their money on crystals
and the top reason why LeKay's frauds don't like NAFPS......

Their too dumb to understand all the big words they use
by Betty from Kitchener
( Kitchener grl [at] gmail.com) Sunday Aug 12th, 2007 6:01 PM
By foreign do you mean Canadian?
I am an enrolled Firsts Nation’s Canadian and I want non ndns who are not familiar with issues of cultural appropriation to know that most of the First Nations people I know see through all of Mr. LeKay’s spurious arguments. The issue of Mr. Carroll’s enrollment status is nothing more than a red herring to distract people from the real issue. Mr. LeKay’s behavior and his magazine is offensive to me as a First Nation’s person. Anyone who has looked at this magazine and been fooled by his dishonest use the images and causes of First Nations people should do a little more research on the crucial issues here.

While they may not have always been perfect, I applaud NAFPS for their efforts. It doesn’t matter to me whether Mr. Carroll is enrolled or not. It only matters to me if he is telling the truth and I believe that he is. I read the smearing articles in Heyoka magazine and one thing I noticed was that Al Carroll was always consistent and honest about who he is and what he feels passionately about. The plastics that Mr. LeKay is promoting admitted that they lied to get into the forum and I found lots of lies in their interviews.

Their behavior is clearly not ndn. It’s also not ndn to question a man’s passion and vision for a cause and tell him he needs to have another vision. We don't refuse to provide information about who we are and who raised us because the person might be European. We know who we are and we don't have to pretend to be different people in a forum. If LeKay’s plastics had any real knowledge of ndn people, they wouldn’t have tried to silence and sue Mr. Carroll using the whiteman’s machine. This is something that greedy white business owners do. Ndns don’t go around lying about who they are and threatening to sue anyone who finds out the truth about them. Medicine men encourage people to ask questions and to think for themselves and they are always forth coming about their gifts and how they are entitled to conduct ceremony. They NEVER advertise their services on the internet. This is simply not ndn.

If non ndns want to help us in this struggle, then they are A-Ok in my book. I say more power to them. Why shouldn’t they help us? After all, there are more frauds than there are legitimate spiritual leaders. We need all the help we can get from non ndns, Why would we discourage them from helping us and point to their race and not look at the accuracy of their statements?

To me, cultural appropriation is the most crucial issue facing Indigenous people in North America. I don’t like it when non ndns tell me that I can’t decide which issues are crucial to my people. Cultural appropriation is like a poison that affects everyone it comes in contact with – it’s like second hand smoke. Look at our history with the whiteman -- we gave the whiteman the gift of tobacco and look what he did with it. Why should we give him the gift of our precious spirituality when we know what he does with our gifts?

I think that it’s every First Nations member’s duty to do everything they can to denormalize cultural appropriation by the NACHPs (New Age Crystal Happy People), It can be as simple as giving an example to illustrate the influence that cultural appropriation has on young children, who see so many people around them repeating gross misrepresentations of their spirituality and then view cultural appropriation as normal and acceptable. Cultural appropriation affects every First Nation’s person. We have so much to struggle against and it is too much of a burden to have to help our children and grandchildren unlearn the lies that the NACHPs tell about our religions.

I don’t believe in censorship or shutting down anyone’s website, but I do believe that First Nations people and those who support us must speak out against the misrepresentation of our spirituality that the people LeKay interviews are engaging in. We need to find a way to make our voices heard over the fantasies of the NACHPs because they’re really drowning us out right now. Every First Nations member should be working really hard in the fight against spiritual misuse and the promotion of traditional and appropriate use of our ceremonies ONLY by those who are traditionally entitled to lead them. Many spiritual leaders have made this clear.

It saddens me that non ndns on the left refuse to listen to the true First Nations voices and look to people like Mr. LeKay to represent who we are. Heyoke magazine does not represent me or my friends and family as an Indigenous person. It is filled with poisonous stereotypes about us that are harmful to my children and grandchildren. If you are on the fence and on the left, please open your mind and your heart and listen to what Mr. Carroll and his supporters have to say. They are much closer to the truth than Mr. LeKay and his bunch of greedy confidence men (and women) will ever be.



Anyone who wants to know more about me or wishes to have an honest discussion about this may email me. I love to hear from First Nations people who are passionate about cultural appropriation issues and I would love to hear from non nds who are confused about this issue.

Please notice that most of the supporters of Mr. Carroll have supplied email addresses or contact information and the shills supporting LeKay have chosen to make anonymous attacks.

We're all still waiting for enrollment information on Mala Spotted Eagle, Red Elk, Ms. Kinney and "Grandmother Robin"


Hmmmmmmm
Tell us more about why you need to refer to a young woman as "The Jewish Trisha Jacobs"

This looks like anti-semitism to me.

VERY unNDN!

K Bigot
by K Bigot
Monday Aug 13th, 2007 1:08 PM
You are such an OBVIOUS SHILL!

LeKay chose to include the Bob Robideau interview. Journalists decide what they publish,
even the yellow ones. He's about and Fair and Balanced as your FAUX NEWS CHANNEL!

If you think that John LeKay is trying to present all sides of the issue, I have some swamp land you might be interested in!

You OBVIOUS SHILL
K. Bigot
by Gratuitous Pseudonym
Monday Aug 13th, 2007 2:37 PM
NAFPS IS PROUD TO BE USED AS A RESOURCE FOR:

LISTED ARE THE groups NAFPS has worked with and all the sites that use us as a resource. Thus anyone wondering whether to believe the rumors being spread by spiritual exploiters and frauds can come to their own conclusions.

Groups and individuals that NAFPS Has Worked With, Including Those That Are Members of NAFPS and Other Activist Groups

American Indian Movement Chapters:
AIM Arizona
AIM Indiana
AIM Support Group of Northern Kentucky/Ohio
MASSAIM
New England AIM

American Indian Heritage Support Center
CERTAIN
Honor Nation
ICARE
Iron Lodge (Native Prisoners Support Group)
Our Red Earth
Red Road Collective
Albuquerque Indian Center (NAFPS members toured Europe on a speaking tour to raise funds for them.)

Native Issues Supporters in Europe:
World In Our Hands Foundation
Fourth World
NANAI


What ndn groups use you as a resource, Mr. LeKay?


by gratuitous pseudonym
Monday Aug 13th, 2007 2:40 PM
Sites that list NAFPS as a resource, work with NAFPS members, or whose members recommend NAFPS, in alphabetical order:

AllExperts.com
http://en.allexperts.com/e/s/sh/shamanism.htm

AmericanIndianPrisoners.com (Native Prisoners Support Group)
http://www.americanindianprisoners.com/Pages/Al%20Carroll.htm

Americas Indigenous People, New Age, and Cultural Appropriation
http://www.stelling.nl/simpos/native_americans.htm

Anthropik Network
http://anthropik.com/2005/10/neoshamanism-is-masturbation/

Blog Critics Magazine
http://blogcritics.org/archives/2006/03/24/094810.php

Blue Corn Comics
http://www.bluecorncomics.com/stype3af.htm

Care 2 Make a Difference
http://www.care2.com/c2c/groups/disc.html?gpp=10787&pst=773492&archival=

Curanderismo Research Project
http://www.ojinaga.com/phoneyshamans.html

Dakota Lakota Singing
http://drumhop.com/cgi-bin/YaBB/YaBB.pl?board=BSA&action=display&num=1108616601&start=45

DBPedia.iorg
http://dbpedia.org/page/Shamanism

Do No Harm (Anishinaabe Activists)
http://www.donoharm.bravepages.com/OctoberActions.html

Reviewers on Ebay
http://search.reviews.ebay.ca/Mother-Earth-Spirituality_ISBN-10_0062505963_ISBN-13_9780062505965_W0QQfvcsZ1463QQsoprZ24717

Engler Refugee's Homepage
http://www.geocities.com/englerrefugee/

Guru Ratings (Provides Warnings on Dangerous Gurus, Kind of a Hindu Version of NAFPS)
http://www.globalserve.net/~sarlo/Ratlinks.htm

Health on Health
http://www.healthonhealth.com/Health-Reference/S/Shamanism

Indian Religion Beliefs
http://www.winzy.com/keyword/Indian%20Religion%20Beliefs

Internet Infidels Discussion Board (Skeptics Society)
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/archive/index.php/t-7950.html

Issues Affecting American Indians in Tennessee
http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?disc=199489;article=16531;title=Issues%20Affecting%20American%20Indians%20in%20Tennessee

Journical.com
http://www.journical.com/article.php?q=Shaman

Kisikew Wiki, Indigenous News
http://wiki.kisikew.org/bin/view/News/BlogLink20
http://simonraven.kisikew.org/bin/view/Blog/BlogLink36

Ladyhawk's Hogan
http://groups.msn.com/LadyhawksHogan/ndnissues1.msnw?all_topics=1

Lakhota.com
http://www.lakhota.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=2693

Native Culture Links
http://www.nativeculturelinks.com/general.html

NativePeoplesTribes.net
http://nativepeoples.tribe.net/thread/cbdbb78b-b006-4c95-a68f-ab3e6b46a199

Native Youth Magazine
http://www.nativeyouthmagazine.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=61&sid=c0b0fd17e3ae4a90546ddc6e86b3aeb1

OccultForums.com
http://www.occultforums.com/archive/index.php?t-19575.html

PeakOil.com (Conservation board)
http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic14491-0-asc-75.html

Planet Twinkie
http://www.geocities.com/planettwinkie//Links.html

PrisonTalk.com
http://www.prisontalk.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-142879.html

Raising Our Collective Voices (Native Woman Activist)
http://windthruherhair.tripod.com/fightback.html

Red Road Collective (Anishinaabe Women Activists)
http://www.geocities.com/redroadcollective/Books.html

ReligiousForums.com
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-19940.html

Saponitown.com (Geneology Forum)
http://www.saponitown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1734&page=3

Snopes.com (Urban Legend Debunkers)
http://msgboard.snopes.com/message/ultimatebb.php?/ubb/get_topic/f/21/t/001116/p/1.html

Tutor Gig Encyclopedia
http://www.tutorgig.com/ed/shamanism

Waldorf Critics
http://www.waldorfcritics.org/active/archives/WCA0401.html

Wayshelter
http://wayshelter.com/CulturalDirectory/Kitchen/Learning_Respectful.htm

Ironically, given how much I've personally criticized Wikipedia, they speak well of us.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAFPS

Wikivisual
http://en.wikivisual.com/index.php/Plastic_shaman

Many Pagan sites, whose members often mistakenly fell for Nuage exploiters, have turned to us as a resource.
http://pub21.bravenet.com/forum/1732203021/fetch/339064/
http://www.duluthpagans.com/readings.asp
http://www.mysticwicks.com/archive/index.php/t-71208.html
http://www.spiralnature.com/magick/tradvsneopagantotemism.html
http://www.wiccanweb.ca/wiki/index.php/Plastic_Shaman
http://www.collegewicca.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=67&PN=1
http://thevalley.ukpagan.com/lofiversion/index.php/t12418.html
http://www.magickaschool.com/forum/viewtopic.php?=&p=31938
http://druidry.org/board/viewtopic.php?p=181711&sid=7d658101ab615b9276c02a27f56704d3
http://www.ttem.org/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=c99564ffbc984a85ef55d3b5209ff961&topic=783.msg4256


Who lists you as a resource, Mr. LeKay?
by Patrick Quinn
Monday Aug 13th, 2007 5:25 PM
RED ALERT: Mala Spotted Eagle Pope and the Nanish Shontie SCAM

I was in Tucson in 2001 and I saw Mala Spotted Eagle Pope with my own eyes and I was not impressed. Pope came to the University of Arizona in April 2001. He was supposed to give a talk, but all he did was try to solicit funds for Nanish Shontie, an embassasingly silly "education center" for well to do New Age types based in Monmouth Oregon.

I had done some research and found that this group started out associating itself with known frauds on the Northwest coast the Ghost Wolf/ crystal skulls cult and then with the fake Hopi elders and a lot of people who appeared on Art Bell just to promote themselves. When they were exposed, they cleaned up their act for a short while, and then went right back to touring the country to collect funds for their so-called education center. The charge for ceremonies by calling the ceremonies “healings” and calling the fees “donations.” This is a standard trick among frauds. They use a lot of catch words to attract rich yuppies like “earth friendly” and “sustainable” and throw in some ancient cataclysmic prophesies to fool people who know nothing about ndns. This group is real tricky. They actually study people who are prone to be attracted to environmental causes and ndn causes and learn how to manipulate them into giving money for this phony community. They’ve even managed to defraud the government into giving them nonprofit status. The group is all about profit. Anybody who still thinks otherwise, is really deluding themselves.

It’s pretty well known across NDN country that there have been numerous reports of Mala Spotted Eagle Pope, disrespecting, assaulting and abusing women. Anyone could have seen them on numerous ndn boards since at least 2002.

No one should take my word that this is a bad guy. You can Google him and look at what he’s up to for yourself:
Google Holland
http://www.google.nl
Google Austria
http://www.google.at
Ask yourself, why would a man need to travel all over the world like that if he had roots in any real ndn community?

Or contact the NANAI site, they know about him.

I’ve heard lots of things about his disrespect for women at various pow wows. I’ve heard many ndn women tell that some of his healings are sexually inappropriate and that he uses his imagined status as a medicine man to try to force women to engage in sex acts with him. I know for a fact that there are charges of sexual misconduct pending against him in several foreign countries. Austria and Holland at least. Anyone could verify this information with a few phone calls or letters. There is also an ongoing investigation about Pope in Veneta County Oregon due to abuse complaints filed by several women at that fair. (it's about 15 miles west of Eugene in Lane County.)

http://www.virtualgumshoe.com/resources/index.asp?STATE_ID=38&CATEGORY_ID=67
http://www.orcourtsonline.com/
Phone: 503-378-3725 Ext. 44429
You have to pay for records

Unfortunately, sexual abuse is common among people pretending to be ndn medicine men. That’s why it is vital that ndns be able to warn the public about the dangers of becoming involved with fakes. New Age ndn operations like this are rife with fraud and sexual abuse is a common thing.


When I saw Pope in Tucson in 2001, he behaved very inappropriately towards a young Dineh woman and an older Ojibwe woman at a talk he gave. The talk made me very suspicious since it was really just a fund raising attempt. His grammar was atrocious, he talked more about Christian concepts, and overall, he didn’t make any sense. He appeared to be very nervous and jumped around from subject to subject, couldn’t stay on one topic and demonstrated that he really knows nothing about indigenous culture. It was my impression that Mala was only talking to the white members of the audience and he was only interested in getting money from them. He seemed irritated that native people had shown up for the talk at all. When a native member of the audience challenged him on his superficial knowledge of indigenous spiritual practices and his use of tonto speak, and his claims to be a “third generation medicine man”, he became belligerent and recited the standard new age fluff about being positive and how evil people are who use their critical thinking skills. There was a young Dineh woman who wanted to know why he traveled all over asking for money and who his people were. He tried to intimidate her into silence by yelling at her and he demonstrated that he is very quick to anger. It has been my experience that true native elders are very slow to anger and will always be patient with you if you have questions. Mala couldn’t answer to anyone’s satisfaction why was in Western Oregon. He refused to give any details about what Western Shoshone or Cherokee community he was from or what the indigenous elders in Western Oregon thought of his community. Mala has a problem respecting women and a problem with his temper; I’ve seen it with my own eyes. Someone should contact the civil and the Tribal authorities in Oregon about him.


BEWARE of people like POPE!

Anyone who is interested in Native spiritual/environmental beliefs should beware of people like him.




Anyone who wants to talk to me about this may contact me at
savage_minded [at] hotmail.com

Patrick Quinn
by Cathy Chung
Tuesday Aug 14th, 2007 9:59 AM

THIS IS THE INFOMATION AL CARROLL WANTS THE PUBLIC NEVER TO SEE

This website has been created due to the fact that Al Carroll and NAFPS circulated and solicited his followers to file libelous and specious complaints against Heyoka Magazines web hosting company to have these interviews and articles removed. Heyoka magazine removed these 3 days before and created this website realising this was coming.

These interviews and articles were conducted after discovering these people were being discussed on NAFPS. This is their side of the story. The side Al Carroll and NAFPS do not want you to read.

http://www.alcarrollnewagefraud.com/index.htm

PLEASE FORWARD THIS INFORMATION AND FEEL FREE TO POST FAR AND WIDE ESPECIALLY IN EUROPE WHERE MOST OF THE NAFPS MEMBERS LIVE AND OPERATE.

HEYOKA MAGAZINE DOES NOT SUCCUMB TO HAVING THEIR FREEDOM OF SPEECH VIOLATED AND WILL NOT TOLERATE THESE ACTS OF SOCIAL TERRORISM BY NAFPS.

THIS IS THE HEIGHTENED STATE OF HYPOCRISY THAT'S NAFPS WANTS TO SILENCE ANY FORMS OF CRITICISM OF THEIR WEBSITE WHILE RELISHING IN THEIR LIBEL AND SQUELCHING ANY FORMS OF DESCENT, ALTERNATE OPINIONS AND FREEDOM OF THOUGHT.





by Barnaby
Tuesday Aug 14th, 2007 2:33 PM
This is an email we received indirectly from Lekay a couple of days ago. ***my emphasis***

----------
Can you please tell Al I removed everything off about him from heyoka.
All the articles. Interviews etc. Gone. I did this on my own
violation. No one asked me to do this. ***I think its best for everyone
concerned to end this.*** This is only causing more division and playing
into the hands of people who would want this to happen.

Its best to focus on the issues. environment, poverty, human rights,
etc.

I made my point.

Best,

John LeKay
----------

Funny way of ending it, John.
by Dr.AliceCarroll
Tuesday Aug 14th, 2007 4:00 PM
It has long been known that Al Carroll along with another NDN tried to intimidate two Asian female foreign exchange students into having sex while he was an undergrad at ASU. Carroll is not a moral man, and I use the term "man" loosley. His rape partner has since died, probably from a drug overdose, it is rumored that Al Carroll is a habitual crystal-meth abuser. The charges were eventually dropped when the two Asian girls decided not to press charges. It is said that they were threatened by Carroll himself of deportation if the went to the police. Al Carroll is sick and twisted, a no life drug abuser. Al Carroll is chronically unemployed and he still lives at home with his parents. Carroll says his life has been threatened and he afraid to walk the streets at night alone for fear that someone might hurt him. Sounds like meth induced paranoia to me. As for being and Apache Indian, well until Carroll produces some tangible evidence he is just antother Indian fraud, like Ward Churchill. AL CARROLL IS THE WARD CHURCHILL OF THE 21ST CENTURY.
by Cathy
Tuesday Aug 14th, 2007 4:27 PM

ANOTHER LEAVES NAFPS AFTER SEEING THE TRUTH


good morning mr.lekay,
my name is ( ) ,i am a register member of the (m ) band of ( ) indians.i just read the articles pertaining to nafps and i couldn't believe the words written about ed. ndn .if it weren't for the fact ,the people whose interviews i read.i have seen robin statements and i know of spirit warrior to be a man of great wisdom.

i have been a member for at least 2 years i think. i am not an active member.after reading the articles,i have decided to remove myself from it's groups.
i just wanted to say thank you for the articles.they were so informative and it made me think about who i should associate with in the future.

sincerely,

(name deleted)

(m ) band of ( ) indians


by A. Nony Mouse
Tuesday Aug 14th, 2007 4:50 PM
That's a pretty anonymous comment. Sorry, LeKay I'm not buying it!
None of this is true and you are not distracting us from the fact that MALA SPOTTED EAGLE IS THE REAL PERVERT
by Victory for NDN Free Speech
Tuesday Aug 14th, 2007 4:56 PM
At last Mr. LeKay admits that he's completely full of shit. Don't worry LeKay, screen shots of YOUR Libel have been preserved and will be forwarded to the proper TRIBAL authorities

by Victory for NDN Free Speech
Tuesday Aug 14th, 2007 4:59 PM
Thanks for posting this. I hope everyone will copy and redistribute it FREELY as speech should be.

There will soon be a new law that requires all registered sex offenders to go to a national site and list all the email addresses and aliases that they use. Then we'll find out who the real perverts are!

by Cathy
Tuesday Aug 14th, 2007 6:04 PM

Because of the continuing and vicious personal attacks upon Mala Spotted Eagle, we have decided to temporarily remove the interview with him until more light is shed on this matter.

http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.7.MEDICINE.MalaSpottedEagle.htm

This is not in any way a refection or indication of how we feel about Mala Spotted Eagle or his spiritual work, but we are primarily taking these measures in order to help in put a stop to this malicious rumors.

Editors,

Heyoka Magazine
by Someone who knows
(1whoknows [at] gmail.com) Tuesday Aug 14th, 2007 7:01 PM
You're a liar I just went over to NAFPS and they've got NEW MEMBERS! No one has left, the group is getting bigger!

It's suspicious how you won't tell what tribe you're from ey?
by Someone who knows
(1whoknows [at] gmail.com) Tuesday Aug 14th, 2007 7:02 PM
They're not rumors, they're the truth
You can call that number or pay for the court records you have to know his real name
YOU KNEW HE WAS A PERVERT WHEN YOU INTERVIEWED HIM
by Cathy
Tuesday Aug 14th, 2007 7:14 PM

PRESS RELEASE

The NAFPS website (specifically Al Carroll and not the legitimate members), was recently taken offline due to their spreading of libel and slanderous comments all over the internet concerning myself and Heyoka magazine. They have now resurfaced and are repeating the same venomous libel. Al Carroll and his associates (NAFPS) have been taken offline numerous times before for committing the same malicious attacks towards other innocent people.

New Age Fraud and Plastic Shamans and their ring leader, Al Carroll, are now trying to shut down Heyoka magazine unless I remove all content concerning Anika Banfield (Swedish filmmaker), Arvil Looking Horse (Lakota spiritual leader) and Al Carroll; as well as any mention of the World in Our Hands Organization, NAPFS and any of their other organizations.

For the last two months, this hate group has been circulating throughout the internet (forums, media groups and list servers) libel and insidious comments as a tactic of defamation of character of myself and others that I have interviewed in Heyoka website. Their ultimate goal has been to shut down Heyoka magazine. Al Carroll and NAFPS have circulated and solicited their followers to file malevolent libelous and unsubstantiated complaints against Heyoka magazine’s web hosting company to have these interviews and articles removed.

Heyoka magazine removed all reference of Al Carroll, NAFPS, Arvol Looking Horse and Anika Banfield, 3 days prior to his demands. Thereafter, we countered with a new website http://www.alcarrollnewagefraud.com which was created as a direct response to Al Carroll’s unsupported demands and actions (NAFPS).

The http://www.alcarrollnewagefraud.com site contains interviews and articles conducted with individuals who were being attacked by Al Carroll and NAFPS. This site represents their side of the story; their thoughts and words of what it felt like to be attacked by this hate group. It shows the truthful and ugly side of Al Carroll and NAFPS group that they don’t want you to see.

I removed Looking Back Woman's interview after much reflection in order to find a peaceful resolution to the ongoing attacks. This interview initiated Al Carroll’s attacks in the first place. She was called a fraud, but this could not be substantiated. Even after removing her interview, Al Carroll and his group continue to twist their depraved web of destruction.

I also removed any mention of Chief Arvol Looking Horse from the site as well as his sister Martinas letter and his response to the Alfred Bone Shirt article as legally required.

HEYOKA MAGAZINE DOES NOT SUCCUMB TO HAVING THEIR FREEDOM OF SPEECH VIOLATED AND WILL NOT TOLERATE THESE ACTS OF SOCIAL TERRORISM BY NAFPS.

THIS IS THE HEIGHTENED STATE OF HYPOCRISY THAT NAFPS WANTS TO SILENCE ANY FORM OF CRITICISM OF THEIR WEBSITE WHILE RELISHING IN THEIR LIBEL AND SQUELCHING OF ANY FORM OF DISSENT, ALTERNATE OPINIONS AND FREEDOM OF THOUGHT AND TO ASK LEGITIMATE QUESTIONS.

http://www.alcarrollnewagefraud.com/index.htm

Editor, Heyoka Magazine
John LeKay

info [at] heyokamagazine.com

by Apache woman
Tuesday Aug 14th, 2007 7:58 PM
STILL WAITING


June 18th 2007

DR AL CARROLL:  QUOTE LeKay is being deliberately dense. I have my father's last name, and he's Irish. My mom's side is Apache. There's no reason Harlyn would know me. Like about half of all NDNs I'm not enrolled. I've always been open about that.

APACE WOMAN: Apaches (all bands) are matrilineal.  This means that we identify ourselves through our mother's bloodlines, clans and such.  Whenever I meet another Apache or Yavapai I introduce myself and announce my mother's name and grandmother's name.  My grandmother's name is one that most tribal members recognize to this day, though most know my mother too.  Of course I have a different last name than my mother and grandmother due to marriage, but still I announce my mother's and grandmother's names.

My question is this Al (if you read this) why wouldn't Harlyn Geronimo or Wendall Chino know your mother by her maiden name?  Or even her mother, your grandmother?  This should be common knowledge at Mescalero especially amongst the members still residing there.

I'll have to inquire with my Mescalero kin in regards to your claim of being a descendant of them.

And another thing, just because there's a VERY possibility that you might be a descendant, what gives you the right to do all that you have done in judging the Indianness of others over at Indianz.com?  You're not enrolled and certainly haven't announce how you descend from such a great people - The Mescalero Apache, except to say, "my mother".  Well, announce her name and that of your grandmother because that's what we're taught to do when introducing ourselves.  You're attempting to make a name for yourself on a national level and claim to speak for the "Apache" nation of which there is none because we're all independent bands, with independent governments, united by a common culture and language and you certainly don't speak for my nation, got it!
by tryingtotellthetruth
Wednesday Aug 15th, 2007 6:28 AM
There is a difference between first amendment rights to engage in public debate based in fact, or what a person has reasonable grounds to believe is a fact, and spreading defamatory rumors based on nothing but speculation about what immoral activities someone may possibly have engaged in. If people can speculate with no evidence, we are all possibly liars and thieves and it would be fair to publicly speculate this is the case. Unless there is evidence and reasonable grounds to believe defamatory speculation, and there is a public good to be served by publishing this, as would be the case if someone was lying about being a spiritual leader of a particular religious denomination, this may be nothing more than harassment. How many people would be willing to endure the attacks and attempts to discredit their personal integrity, as appears to be happening here to Al Carroll and anyone who supports Arvol Looking Horse and the protection of Ceremonies? Any relatives Al Carroll names may be subjected to similar harassment. The fact he has not named any relatives probably only proves he is protecting his relatives. Warriors protect the Elders and Spiritual people, but they are not the same thing as the Elders and Spiritual people. What tribally recognized and supported leaders are John Lekay and John Martin supporting?
by A Lie Repeated often enought becomes the trut
(george_orwell_times_10 [at] yahoo.com) Wednesday Aug 15th, 2007 6:57 PM
Why do you continue with your delusions?

It seems that Mr. LeKay is of the belief that a lie repeated often enough will become the truth

1.) A bunch of plastics tried to censor a online group of Natives because they couldn't debate with them due to their poor critical thinking skills
2.) When confronted with mounds of evidence that John LeKay's magazine exists only to hide unscrupulous frauds such as Mala Spotted Eagle Pope and Sequoya Trueblood inside ripped off block and copy articles from reputable papers and the websites of reputable native groups, John and his shills engaged in an irrational campaign to silence his critics
3.) When confronted with even more evidence, John back-peddled and removed some of his irrational, ridiculous ramblings hopin that he may continue to insert frauds in the slick deceptive pages of his twinkie rag
4.) John LeKay freely chose who he would "interview" and chose only to interview known frauds and presented extremely biased and slanted interviews that failed to investigate the interviewees claims. They would better be described as ADVERTISEMENTS for the frauds
5.) John LeKay has no intention of presenting both sides of the issue, if he did he would not have attempted to silence one side of the debate
6.) Asking for evidence that one is entitled to conduct ceremonies is not an attack and crticizing ridiculous claims made by those charging for services, books and ceremonies is NOT HATE SPEECH. The same first amendment that protects the frauds right to BELIEVE whatever they wish also protects the right of ALL the citizens of cyberspace regardless of their race to criticize those beliefs.
7.) John LeKay has no respect for the true indigenous world view, the statements of the true legitimate hereditary elders of indigenous people or for the democratic principles that this nation was founded under
8.) John LeKay's interest in this irrational, rambling nonsensical debate is in saving face and building up his own ego. He has never shown any interest in honest debate or dialogue. He has instructed people to enter the NAFPS forum under FALSE NAMES, MAKING FALSE CLAIMS. If one examines the comments here you can see that the anonymous comments supporting John LeKay are all made by his shills. They have so little integrity that they would even lie about their alleged tribal enrollment status and lie about being members of NAFPS
9.) NAFPS has never advocated censorship and it is clear from the materials presented by Mr. LeKay himself, that members made every effort to debate with his shills and to educate them, but they clearly had an agenda to disrupt the group and were not capable or interested in honest debate. It is also clear from the materials that LeKay presented on his website that he and his shills are incapable of intelligent, honest debate and are only looking to silence any group that might be bad for business.
10.) Heyoka is an offensive publication that exists to promote the economic interests of people pretending to be native american. It only contributes to the destruction of native american spiritual beliefs and is therefore racist. Since all the "environmental articles" can be found elsewhere on the internet, there is really no reason for the publication to exist except to advertise several well known frauds, hucksters and flim flam artists. Advertising is NOT constitutionally protected free speech and is subject to regulation. No one has the right to advertise a product which is harmful to the general public, which is inauthentic or which blatantly misrepresents itself to be "Native American"

This discussion has done nothing but call to the attention of the eduated public, that John LeKay has an agenda to promote several very unscrupulous individuals who promote New Age theories, German mysticism and philosophies which are closer to the Nazi occult than to any genuine indigenous spiritual philosophies. If Mr. LeKay were honest about the type of information his shills are really selling, this dispute would never have happened.
by who decides what is fact?
Wednesday Aug 15th, 2007 7:00 PM
John LeKay has repeatedly shown that he is incapbel of deciphering fact from fantasy.
He wouldn't have chosen to interview frauds if he could do this.
by Dr. Alice Carroll
Wednesday Aug 15th, 2007 8:41 PM
WARNING! Ignore these Clubs/Forums
Due to reports of prolonged history of harassment, racist OR illegal activity by founders and/or a large portion of membership, these links are NOT recommended.

Yahoo! Groups: Aryan Victory Front
Yahoo! Groups: The Black Nationlist Lounge
Yahoo! Groups: Friends of Farrakhan
Yahoo! Groups: Mastering Consciousness
Yahoo! Groups: National Aryan Alliance - Australian White Power
Yahoo! Groups: New Age Frauds Plastic Shamans ----Carroll's bullshit website.
Yahoo! Groups: New Black Panther Party
Yahoo! Groups: Northwest COTC
Yahoo! Groups: World Church of the Creator Kentucky
Yahoo! Groups: wcotcwhitepride


WARNING! Ignore these Yahoo! Members
Due to reports of prolonged history of harassment, racist OR illegal activity by these individuals, readers are urged to avoid them.

advizin_ndn
black_mantis82
big1indian
bigi_again
cajonerodude
educatedindian ----------a.k.a. Al Carroll
jibril_96745
man_in_black529
natfront2002
ourcreed
racistpoet
redd2020
sweetconscious2000
tab_5_1930
tryastar5
uwasv_waya
by Tallsoldier77
Wednesday Aug 15th, 2007 8:51 PM
NAFPS has no one but their own actions to blame for their hosting company's shutdown of their libelous website. For years, they have printed false, libelous and cruel allegations about people that are not true.

However, they do list some frauds that are legitimately abusing native traditions and ceremonies, they are fakes, selling sacred ceremonies for a price to naive, foolish people who are looking for a quick fix and are as they say, "a new sucker is born every minute." It is the very people themselves who give the frauds an income. Rather than deal with someone who claims to be a Chief or Medicine Person or "Shaman" they should check the people out first. But they are so hungry for that quick fix to their own problems, they don't take that extra precaution. So, they must shoulder the blame too.

If they did not exist in such large numbers, there would be far less fakes roaming the internet and in the US and abroad.

The problem with NAFPS is, they don't always have "facts." They attack first and often use their organization and the threat of AIM for their own personal agendas. They might not like someone. They may be doing it out of any number of personal reasons, but they know deep down it is the truth - they too, have abused our Sacred Ways by the manner in which they have attacked people online.

There is no need to do what they do - name call, create false allegations - if they would only work with the truth in regards to these frauds and fakes, then they would be doing a good thing. But they have a long history of being vicious at times and often, to innocent people who they have slandered and hurt. They know, if they are truly native themselves, that they will answer for all the wrongs they have done to people who did not deserve to be attacked in such a way. However, there are many non-natives involved in NAFPS as well. This movie that is being made about Cultural Theft - why are they filming it in Sweden and having a white Swedish woman making the film?

We fight hard to the inclusion of American natives to have equal access in film, print, etc., and rather than seek out an American Indian film maker and film it in this country, they go to Sweden. It makes no sense. They are not even supporting native actors, film makers, etc but they themselves prefer to work with non-natives. Will the main cast be white too?

They are not doing the native community any service by their actions when they do it in a negative way. They are not helping their native brothers and sisters when they do not turn to native film makers and actors to make such an important documentary as one concering the cultural theft and exploitation by non-natives and yes, some native people, as well. They are defending and employing Europeans, the descendants of the very people who destroyed so many native people and tribes. Granted, they are not personally responsible for the slaughter and death of thousands of Native Americans, but why should we feed them in such a way, when our first priority should be to improve opportunities for our own, to support and give voice to our own people especially with an issue such as this?

Their actions should raise these questions.

They claim to have the support of Elders and Chiefs and Tribal Nations. Why don't they provide that documentation? What don't they have a listing of supporters such as Elders and Nations for their activities?

As they say, talk is cheap. Prove your words or remain quiet. You at war now with this John McKay because as an editor he interviewed people most of you don't like and I sometimes wonder if you are not a tad jealous that NAFPS was not interviewed instead. His articles were interviews - that is what journalists and editors and publishers do - interview people from all walks of life. But it doesn't mean they support them or their particular stance.

All you are accomplishing with this war of yours is to build up more hatred and negativity, to skirt the real issues that are most important and shining a light on all native people, that this is how they act, see? That is what people think and say and you are feeding right into that with your whining about racism, being denied freedom of speech, and so forth, because someone stood up against your false allegations. As an Educator, you should be ashamed - you are no Churchill and never will be.


SOMEONE STICK A FORK IN THAT BEANER CARROLL................HE'S DONE.



TS77
by getting bored
Wednesday Aug 15th, 2007 9:24 PM
Tallsoldier77 AKA John Martin , Lekay's new Indian guide Get to know the wise Tallsoldier77 through his contributions to the Indianz message board http://indianz.com/board/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24706 And who is this David Yeagley, Tallsoldier77 is defending ? Check out reply 73 for the tip of the iceberg . http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=233ec1b79faeb16e9c1a8df0c97609b6&topic=1029.msg7646#new Actually the whole thread is very interesting . In my opinion Lekay really needs to learn some critical thinking skills .
by Old Medicine Bags.......
Wednesday Aug 15th, 2007 10:50 PM
From what I read so far, this group nafps has done very little to help the major problems that are pervasive throughout Indian Country. This man Dr. Al Carroll seems to be desperately trying to make a name for himself as an Indian activist. I personally know Russ Means and Dennis Banks, Dr. Carroll is no Means or Banks, by any means. This entire discussion is not exclusively about 1st Amendment rights, just the opposite, this topic is about an alleged Apache who has been abusing his 1st Am. Rights. Dr. Carroll has posted in other forums and he seems to be a trouble-maker, a man who supposedly has an Education, but has never done a thing with it. Dr. Carroll should personally visit some of the American Indian reservations and get a grip on what needs to be done. His constant and unprovoked "witch-hunts" are unequivocally useless to contemporary Indian needs. Dr. Carroll is not part of the solution, indeed, he is a major component of the aggregate problem. Why does this man Dr. Carroll not go to various reservations and personally address real, legitimate Indian issues? From what I am told, Dr. Carroll visits Europe quite frequently for reasons unknown. If he were really concerned about the plight of the American Indian he would have tackled these problems long ago. He had his chance and he lost it. There is hope however, I am told of a strong, young, intelligent American Indian who is willing to put his money where his mouth is, a leader we can trust. Dr. Carroll is a has been, a man who has very little Indian blood, if any at all, he is a liability to the Native Community. He is just plain wrong for Native America.
by Elizabeth
Wednesday Aug 15th, 2007 11:09 PM
33 reasons why Al Carroll is not telling the truth about Heyoka magazine

Al Carroll: Quote. "Heyoka is an offensive publication that exists to promote the economic interests of people pretending to be native american. It only contributes to the destruction of native american spiritual beliefs and is therefore racist"

These are some of the people Dr Al Carroll believes are pretending to be native American and who Al Carroll believes are contributing to the destruction of native American spiritual beliefs.

Harold One feather. Hunkpapa Lakota. Environmental activist
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.4.ENVIRO.HaroldOneFeather.htm
Robert Robideau. AIM leader. Artist and human rights activist
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.7.RobertRobideau.htm
Charmaine whiteface. Environmental activist. Defenders of the Black Hills.
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.7.ENVIRO.CharmaineWhitetFace.htm
William Under baggage. Lakota. Human rights activist and founder of Indigenous peoples network.
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.4.ENVIRO.WilliamUnderBaggage.htm
Pete Catches, Lakota. 39 generation medicine man
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.6.MEDICINE.PeteCatches.htm
Larry Merculieff. Athabascan environmental activist.
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.7.LarryMerculieff.htm
Timothy Benally. Navajo. environmental activist.
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.4.ENVIRO.TomothyBenally.htm
Garvard Good Plume. Lakota. human rights activist
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.6.GarvardGoodPlume.Interview.htm
Melenie McBee, Lakota. human rights activist.
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.7.MelanieMcbee.htm
Jodi Rave. Lakota. Journalist.
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.7.HUMAN-RIGHTS.Rape.htm
Jaye A. La Vallee . Lakota. Experiential therapist
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.8.Jaye.A.LaVallee.htm
Jimmy Durham. Artist. First Nations Affiliation:  Cherokee.
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.2.JIMMI%20DURHAM.htm
Buffy Sainte Marie. Cree. Musician.
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.3.PAINT.BUFFY.htm
Red feather woman. Sioux/Assiniboine tribes. musician Story teller
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.3.MUSIC.ROSE%20RED%20ELK.htm
HOCK E AYE VI . Edgar Heap of Birds. Artist. http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.3.SCULPT.EDGAR.htm
Sam Durant. artist
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.3.SCULPT.SAM%20DURANT.htm
sklyar wolf. Navajo. Human rights activist. musician.
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.6.MUSIC.SkylarWolf.htm
Jim tree. Cherokee . spiritual adviser.
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.6.PIPE.JimMedicineTree.htm
Bud Johnson. President pipe keepers
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.6.BudJOHNSTON.htm

NON NATIVE PEOPLE WHO HAVE HELPED RAISE AWARENESS ABOUT NATIVE AMERICAN CAUSES

Peter Buffet. musician, philanthropist
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.2.PETER%20BUFFETT.htm
Helen Calidicott. Nobel prize nominee, scientist
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.4.ENVIRO.HelenCaldicott.htm
David Michael Kennedy. photographer.
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.3.FOTOS.%20D%20M%20KENNEDY.1.htm
Doug Brugge. Environmental activist
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.4.ENVIRO.DOUGE%20BRUGGE.htm
Harvey Arden. Human rights activist.
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.8.HarveyArden.htm
Dr Diane Sterns. Scientist.
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.4.ENVIRO.Diane%20Stearns.htm
Kevin Annett. human rights activist.
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.6.KevinAnett.htm
Peter coyote .Actor. human rights and environmental activist
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.9.PeterCoyote.htm
Adi Roche. Environmental activist
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.9.AdiRoche.1.htm
Trudi blue. Poet
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.9.TrudiBlue.htm
Remy C. environmental activist
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.9.RemyC.Letter.htm




by Bullet proof vest
Wednesday Aug 15th, 2007 11:10 PM
Debunking the myths, fallacies and rhetoric spread by Al Carroll and his Euro-supporters.
"A cultural activist group, New Age Frauds and Plastic Shamans has been working tirelessly for nearly a decade to warn unsuspecting consumers of the dangers or becoming involved with those who exploit Native American Spiritual practices for profit. Over they years, the people they expose as frauds have been successful in shutting down their discussion groups and bulletin boards and denying this First Nations’s group their First Amendment Rights. Please pass this information along to anyone who believes in the right to free speech on the internet:"--AngryNDN (Brent Michael Davids).


So, nafps has been working overtime for the past ten years and what have they accomplished? Really, they have slandered, ridiculed and committed acts of heresy so disgusting that any "normal" person would and does have every right to dismiss them as an anti-Indian hate group.

Carroll and his bedfellow Brent Michael Davids have been at this game for an entire decade. What have they done for the plight of the American Indian? What contributions have they made to assist Indians in finding employment, overcoming addiction, domestic violence, rascism etc;?

Al Carroll is not Indian.

Al Carroll is a snake, he will attack anyone who disagrees with his outlandish theories. (See davidyeagley.org). Anyone who threatens him (Carroll) is automatically labeled a white supremacist or a Fed. Carroll's site has gotten so out of control that his web host shut him down.

Carroll was shut down for deliberately and systematically attacking innocent Indian men and women. Carroll is a failed human being, he claims to teach at a community college in the San Antonio area. I made a few phone calls and it turns out that Carroll has not been employed for at least a year.

Carroll claims to be of Mescalero Apache heritage, yet he offers no legitimate family bloodline or names of grandfathers and grandmothers. All Indians are more than proud to reveal their rich Indian heritage. Carroll simply avoids the query or goes on the defensive, attacking an elder for example, without citations or proof to back up his lucid allegations.

Carroll is now under investigation by the LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT for, among other things "identitiy theft". He has revealed the personal info, i.e. addresses, phone numbers, places of employemnt of his victims. Al Carroll is a cultural menace, an extremely mentally disturbed individual. He has done more damage to the Native American Community than any other racist in history.

Go to http://www.davidyeagley.org and get a taste of what Carroll is dishing out. This is the primary reason why he was kicked off the internet, he will of course blame and name others, however, when the dust settles, it is Carroll who stands alone, a beacon to those who enjoy bashing American Indians.


John Martin (Enrolled Oglala, Lakota).
by Onewhoknowsbetter
Friday Aug 17th, 2007 8:37 AM
Quoting John Martin from the post above ;
"Go to http://www.davidyeagley.org and get a taste of what Carroll is dishing out. This is the primary reason why he was kicked off the internet, he will of course blame and name others, however, when the dust settles, it is Carroll who stands alone, a beacon to those who enjoy bashing American Indians."

That's an interesting comment.

I notice Al Carroll is not the only person who John Martin has attempted to humiliate and discredit for disagreeing with David Yeagley. For example, Michelle Shiningelk's experience with John Martin of which she saved in screen shots and posted them in her blog.

http://michelleshiningelk.blogspot.com/search/label/JOHN%20MARTIN

Yeagley presents himself as a spokesperson on Indian issues, but writes articles which express many ideas which are identical to those held by many White Supremacists. So why does John Martin defend David Yeagley , and feel Al Carroll is unfair to draw attention to Yeagley's effect on Indians ? Check out some of the statements made by David Yeagley quoted below ;

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=273

What's Up With Dark Men?
By David Yeagley
FrontPageMagazine.com | 2/26/2002

Quote
"Superior beauty is in the white race, with its scintillating varieties of color: red, brown, amber, golden hair... green, blue, light brown, gray eyes. In the darker races, everything is always the same, dark brown and black a beastly bore."

Quote
"These days the white woman is expected to humble herself before the darkie."

Quote
"But Hitler was wrong in Mein Kamf (1925), when he accuses the Jewish male of a racial plot. When "the black-haired Jewish youth" finds himself sexually attracted to the fair Aryan maiden, there is no "clear aim of ruining the hated white race" through intermarriage. The Jew himself would breed out, for he is a small minority.

But the masses of darker races don't fear extinction, because they are the vast majority. The white race is the world's minority.

Its Judeo-Christian religion allowed the European Caucasian race to advance above all other people; but the darker races now encroach through integration and intermarriage, in the name of equality and diversity.

Pat Buchanan says that there's something wrong with a race that doesn't care whether it exists or not. In his new book, The Death of The West, he refers to my article, "What's Up With White Women," in which I write about a white girl who has no pride in her race or its accomplishments.

There are dark people who look forward to the end of "whitey."

http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2005/04/korean_actress.php

Korean Actress Exposed ,
Quoting David Yeagley
"Mixed raced people can't help what they are. Their's is no fault. But there is no need to repeat the same, or to advocate more, or to idolize such a condition by perpetuating it. When you realize you're on a wrong path, even if you didn't put yourself on it, the only dignified thing to do is to get back on the right path."

Yeagley also has a reputation in Indian country, of undermining Indian sovereignty. Yeagley earned this reputation by supporting anti Indian sovereignty groups, such as One Nation .

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=13399

Quoting Yeagley
"I was invited to speak to leaders of Citizens Equal Rights Alliance, United Property Owners, Upstate Citizens for Equality, and One Nation. These organizations represent over a quarter of a million Americans citizens who have personally lost money, property, business, and basic civil rights as the result of aggressions by the Indian casino industry. (Not to mention the income counties and states lose to tax-exempt "Indian" casino business.)"

Quote
"It's their people that created America, not Indians. Only a diabolically self-righteous liberal politician would take America out of the hands that created it, and give it to those who either lost it, or never had anything to do with it."

http://www.badeagle.com/html/arent_pales.html

Quoting David Yeagley
"As a Comanche Indian, I'm sensitive to this history. I believe the conqueror has a right to what he has conquered. No one owns the land. Only he who is strong enough to possess it will control it and the people living on it. That's the law of war."

It seems one of the core issues in Lekay's dispute with NAFPS, is about recognition and respect for sovereignty, and the right of Tribal Nations to protect and maintain their own culture.

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1029.50

reply 56
Quote
"When people posting in NAFPS point out that the authority that comes from within Native communities is not being respected, or that a person is misrepresenting themselves as having this authority, or the traditions are being distorted and degraded, as I understand it, the general concern is to preserve the authority of knowledgeable recognized Spiritual leaders within Native communities, which in turn protects the intgrity and potency of these traditions for future generations."

reply 56
Quote
"It has been a common colonization tactic to recognize and promote people as having authority within the nation that is being colonized, only because it suits the purposes of the colonizer."

Outside interests would rub their hands with glee if these regulatory bodies that have the job of managing American resources for the American people, could be dismantled and all that was required to access American resources, was permission of a few American citizens.

What would happen to America, if individual rights to exploit nationally owned resources, were given dominance over the regulatory authorities who are supposed to make sure these collectively owned resources are managed for the common good ?

Is it just a coincidence that John Lekay and John Martin seem determined to uphold the claims of a few individuals who may be Indians, over recognized tribal authorities? Is it just a coincidence that NAFPS's support for recognized tribal authorities is being undermined by John Martin, who also defends someone promoting anti Indian White Supremacist beliefs?

Is it just a coincidence that John Martin himself says ;

"Go to http://www.davidyeagley.org and get a taste of what Carroll is dishing out. This is the primary reason why he was kicked off the internet ........."

Hopefully John Lekay will learn something from this, and in the future will be able to give support to more appropriate issues. We all make mistakes, and if we are courageous enough to face this, we all become better people for having done so.
by Elizabeth
Friday Aug 17th, 2007 11:57 AM
"Hopefully John Lekay will learn something from this, and in the future will be able to give support to more appropriate issues. We all make mistakes, and if we are courageous enough to face this, we all become better people for having done so"

What has John Martin and his beef with Al Carroll got to do with John LeKay. Why are you trying to fuse them together. These are clearly separate issues. Many people have issues with Al Carroll. Does that mean they have something to do with John LeKay

Yes we all make mistakes including you in your last post and when is Al Carroll ready to admit his multiple mistakes of saying he represensts the Mescalero Apache when he cannot prove it? If he cant prove it then he should be straightforward and say he is and what he can prove.

By the way, do you mean like these issues.

Harold One feather. Hunkpapa Lakota. Environmental activist
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.4.ENVIRO.HaroldOneFeather.htm
Robert Robideau. AIM leader. Artist and human rights activist
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.7.RobertRobideau.htm
Charmaine whiteface. Environmental activist. Defenders of the Black Hills.
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.7.ENVIRO.CharmaineWhitetFace.htm
William Under baggage. Lakota. Human rights activist and founder of Indigenous peoples network.
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.4.ENVIRO.WilliamUnderBaggage.htm
Pete Catches, Lakota. 39 generation medicine man
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.6.MEDICINE.PeteCatches.htm
Larry Merculieff. Athabascan environmental activist.
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.7.LarryMerculieff.htm
Timothy Benally. Navajo. environmental activist.
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.4.ENVIRO.TomothyBenally.htm
Garvard Good Plume. Lakota. human rights activist
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.6.GarvardGoodPlume.Interview.htm
Melenie McBee, Lakota. human rights activist.
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.7.MelanieMcbee.htm
Jodi Rave. Lakota. Journalist.
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.7.HUMAN-RIGHTS.Rape.htm
Jaye A. La Vallee . Lakota. Experiential therapist
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.8.Jaye.A.LaVallee.htm
Jimmy Durham. Artist. First Nations Affiliation: Cherokee.
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.2.JIMMI%20DURHAM.htm
Buffy Sainte Marie. Cree. Musician.
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.3.PAINT.BUFFY.htm
Red feather woman. Sioux/Assiniboine tribes. musician Story teller
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.3.MUSIC.ROSE%20RED%20ELK.htm
HOCK E AYE VI . Edgar Heap of Birds. Artist. http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.3.SCULPT.EDGAR.htm
Sam Durant. artist
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.3.SCULPT.SAM%20DURANT.htm
sklyar wolf. Navajo. Human rights activist. musician.
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.6.MUSIC.SkylarWolf.htm
Jim tree. Cherokee . spiritual adviser.
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.6.PIPE.JimMedicineTree.htm
Bud Johnson. President pipe keepers
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.6.BudJOHNSTON.htm

NON NATIVE PEOPLE WHO HAVE HELPED RAISE AWARENESS ABOUT NATIVE AMERICAN CAUSES

Peter Buffet. musician, philanthropist
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.2.PETER%20BUFFETT.htm
Helen Calidicott. Nobel prize nominee, scientist
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.4.ENVIRO.HelenCaldicott.htm
David Michael Kennedy. photographer.
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.3.FOTOS.%20D%20M%20KENNEDY.1.htm
Doug Brugge. Environmental activist
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.4.ENVIRO.DOUGE%20BRUGGE.htm
Harvey Arden. Human rights activist.
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.8.HarveyArden.htm
Dr Diane Sterns. Scientist.
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.4.ENVIRO.Diane%20Stearns.htm
Kevin Annett. human rights activist.
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.6.KevinAnett.htm
Peter coyote .Actor. human rights and environmental activist
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.9.PeterCoyote.htm
Adi Roche. Environmental activist
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.9.AdiRoche.1.htm
Trudi blue. Poet
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.9.TrudiBlue.htm
Remy C. environmental activist
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.9.RemyC.Letter.htm
by NoamChomsky would throw up if he met LeKay
Friday Aug 17th, 2007 1:12 PM
The controversy for dummies:

NAFPS are the skeptics.

LeKay is the advertiser.

The commercialism of Heyoka magazine will be evident to the enlightened and the New Age true believers will continue to consume the kook aid

". . . to take apart the system of illusions and deception which functions to prevent understanding of contemporary reality [is] not a task that requires extraordinary skill or understanding. It requires the kind of normal skepticism and willingness to apply one's analytical skills that almost all people have and that they can exercise."
—Noam Chomsky
The Chomsky Reader

A man with the intellect of Noam Chomsky would see through LeKay's blatant attemtp to advertise frauds. I think he should know how his image is being abused by being placed on this 'publication'

by Noam Chomsky would throw up is he met you
Friday Aug 17th, 2007 1:16 PM
Everyone makes mistakes is a vapid comment on this controversy. LeKay deliberately engaged in unscrupulous acts and tried to cover them up behind a childish campaign of spurious analogy and ad hominem attacks. You've allowed yourself to be distracted from the real issues.
Read Chomsky.
by Noam Chomsky would throw up if he met you
Friday Aug 17th, 2007 1:21 PM
You have deliberately misrepresented Dr. Caroll's position on these individuals and therefore you have no credibility.

The problem here is that the LeKay camp refuses to let NAFPS speak for themselves. The advertisers of the questionable want to control the entire dialogue and tell you what Al Caroll believes. This shows a lack of integrity. Why can't you allow Dr. Caroll to speak for himslef. Why the need to silence him?

I called L.A. and there is no such investigation. It is either wishful thinking or some sort of delusion on the part of the LeKay shills.
by Baloney Detective
Friday Aug 17th, 2007 1:33 PM
You aren't foolin anyone whiteeyez.
There's always some blow hard like you claim to know a lot of AIM guyz and tellin the skinz that they need to ignore all the money bein made by fakers and poserz and other assorted waanaabee scum. Who are you to say how a man uses his first amendment rights. Who are you to say what issues are important to ndns? If I wanna believe that the crap that new agers are doin to ndns is the most important issue in ndn country who the hell are you to tell me that it isn't. There's always goin to be fools like you on the internet trying to pretend they're more ndn than the ndns, but we know there's just a big fat white loser at the other sittin in front of the terminal fumin because he tried to play ndn and some skin saw through his bullshit

You aint fooin no one
Kimosabe
by Baloney Detective
Friday Aug 17th, 2007 1:35 PM
Get your facts straignt pale face!

You are NOT even quoting Al Caroll, dumbass.

However, I couldn't agree more with this quote.

Heyoka IS an offensive publication that exists to promote the economic interests of people PRETENDING to be native american. It only contributes to the destruction of native american spiritual beliefs and is therefore racis
by Baloney Detective
Friday Aug 17th, 2007 1:46 PM
By refering to a man by a woman's name you have revealed your sexism.
by Baloney Detective
Friday Aug 17th, 2007 1:48 PM
Tallsoldier77 is the email that John Martin uses to harass people who question him

The statement:
"SOMEONE STICK A FORK IN THAT BEANER CARROLL................HE'S DONE."

is a racist statement.

The public should be able to make their own judgements about Martin's credibilty
by Baloney Detective
Friday Aug 17th, 2007 1:52 PM
" Trisha Jacobs, the libelous Jewish Cherokee imposter"

The adjective "Jewish" used as a perjoritive.
LeKay's does indeed to appear to be anti-semetic
by Baloney Detective
Friday Aug 17th, 2007 2:04 PM
There you go again, referring to a man with a woman's name in order to humiliate him.
This is sexist.
I called ASU and they have no record of any "Asian female foreign exchange students into having sex" since 2000. If these women "went to the police" there would be a record of it.
Why the need to refer to the alleged victim's race?

ASU police are required to to keep police logs.
(480) 965-3456

This looks like a racist and sexist fabrication to me and reveals you true character.

by Baloney Detective
Friday Aug 17th, 2007 2:12 PM
Try to pay attention. Reading all the comments with comprehension as a goal would be helpful.

John Martin is a shill for LeKay. Look up the definition of shill in a real dictionary.

If you write to LeKay asking for proof of the tribal enrollment of the bogus "elder" LeKay "interviews" John Martin will respond to you with irrational emails. Try to catch up! They are definitely connected.

Martin goes around on various forums and BB defending LeKay and Yeagley
one of his email's is Tallsoldier77
google it
by onewhoknowsbetter
Friday Aug 17th, 2007 3:09 PM
Quoting someone still trying to stick up for Lekay's silly behavior ;
"What has John Martin and his beef with Al Carroll got to do with John LeKay. Why are you trying to fuse them together. These are clearly separate issues."

I can see you wish they were separate issues, but Lekay has been presenting John Martin as an "authoritative full blood Lakota voice" . John Lekay published comments from John Martin about Al Carroll in his Heyoka magazine .

If people do a google search on "John Martin " and " Al Carroll " and "Heyoka" they can still find the cached page .

In his first comment above, Lekay wrote a whole paragraph denying John Martin or Yeagley promoted opinions commonly held by white supremacists and Lekay even tried to silence people who pointed this out, by saying it was libel to say this .

Lekay's obvious cooperation and affiliation with a character like John Martin is one more result of Lekay's determination to promote anyone who will tell him what he wants to believe, no matter who they are, and to ignore and even silence everyone providing information Lekay does not want to hear . It is not a separate issue , and seems to be a part of an ongoing pattern .

And BTW , all these accusations that Lekay's home address was posted on the NAFPS website are just part of a bigger pattern of Lekay playing the victim . The information posted in NAFPS is the same information that is available to anyone who does a whois domain search. Lekay is an adult and should know information he puts on line, like a domain registration that is open to the public, is open the the public .

by Elizabeth
Friday Aug 17th, 2007 3:14 PM
1. Noam Chomsky gave John LeKay permission to use his photograph.

2. Jacobs is a very common Jewish name. Note her name is not Trisha Yamamoto. If he were she would be "Japenese Cherokee imposter" see

http://www.trishajacobs.com/ This is the woman who had to leave the country and move to Belgium because of similar tactics to Al Carrolls. These tactics are called hate, lies and uncontrolled and venomous anger.

3. All you keep doing is proving how racist you are against white people. The above is all your projection and groupthink.

Symptoms of Groupthink

Janis has documented eight symptoms of groupthink:
 
Illusion of invulnerability –Creates excessive optimism that encourages taking extreme risks.
Collective rationalization – Members discount warnings and do not reconsider their assumptions.
Belief in inherent morality – Members believe in the rightness of their cause and therefore ignore the ethical or moral consequences of their decisions.
Stereotyped views of out-groups – Negative views of “enemy” make effective responses to conflict seem unnecessary.
Direct pressure on dissenters – Members are under pressure not to express arguments against any of the group’s views.
Self-censorship – Doubts and deviations from the perceived group consensus are not expressed.
Illusion of unanimity – The majority view and judgments are assumed to be unanimous.
Self-appointed ‘mindguards’ – Members protect the group and the leader from information that is problematic or contradictory to the group’s cohesiveness, view, and/or decisions.


HEYOKA MAGAZINE REMEDIES FOR NAFPS GROUPTHINK

Decision experts have determined that groupthink may be prevented by adopting some of the following measures:

a) The leader (Al Carroll) should assign the role of critical evaluator to each member

b) The leader should avoid stating preferences and expectations at the outset

c) Each member of the group should routinely discuss the groups' deliberations with a trusted associate and report back to the group on the associate's reactions

d) One or more experts should be invited to each meeting on a staggered basis. The outside experts should be encouraged to challenge views of the members.

e) At least one articulate and knowledgeable member should be given the role of devil's advocate (to question assumptions and plans. Preferbly John LeKay )

Now if you take these measures nafps would be a much more interesting site.


by onewhoshouldknowbetter
Friday Aug 17th, 2007 4:09 PM
Quoting " Elizabeth"
"when is Al Carroll ready to admit his multiple mistakes of saying he represents the Mescalero Apache"

Where did Al Carroll say that? Are you assuming a person saying they are of Apache descent automatically means they "represent the nation " ?

So if someone from China finds an someone who is American, sleeping it off in a doorway, does them being of American descent mean anything they say is, "representing the American people"? The presumption is extremely shallow and even racist .

NAFPS simply repeats over and over the same concerns that have been stated many times by almost every recognized American Indian leader on the continent as well as the vast majority of Elders and traditionalists . Al Carroll is not making this up . That you imagine this is about him, just shows how utterly completely ignorant you are . The reason people who post in NAFPS don't usually disagree is because the basic cultural protocols aren't open to debate and people who know anything have enough respect to know that . And even though you are so incredibly ignorant to say the concerns of the vast majority of Elders is "hate, lies and uncontrolled and venomous anger. " you still have the audacity to tell ndn people how to protect these concerns EVEN AS YOU BLATENTLY IGNORE THEM .

I have no idea why you think this has anything to do with Al Carroll or his lack of enrollment , except he helps make this support of these concerns possible . When you keep making stuff up to discredit these Elders by making like it is all about Al Carroll, or when you try and discredit Al Carroll by claiming he is saying he represents the Mescalero Apache, just because he says is is a descendant , it just shows you have no real grounds to object to what NAFPS does. Otherwise you wouldn't have to resort to ignoring the facts or making stuff up, to have something to complain about.

Why not just give up and admit Lekay has made some mistakes? I find your attitude really offensive .
by Cathy
Friday Aug 17th, 2007 5:24 PM

Al Carroll is clearly representing the apache here on his bio (below) and for this book....."They call us Indians." There is no mention he is un-enrolled or says he cannot prove his blood. He states clearly he is Mescalero apache. If he cant prove this then why not just say so and cut out this hide and seek. When you have the Mescalero apache asking and he still cant answer, don't you think he has a problem here/ Don't you think the apache people have a right to know who he is since he is going to be in this upcoming film saying he represents the Mescalero apache. Or is Mescalero apache. Ask any Indian, they will tell you who their parents are if they know. The logic is simple. You cant assume you are Indian because it looks good. You either are or are not.

Ask Russell Means to prove he is Lakota and tell you who is parents Lakota names are. Do you think he would not answer you. This is insane you don't even see this. How gullible can you be?

APACHE PRESENTATION

My name is Al Carroll. I´m Mescalero Apache (in our own language, Ndeh),
Mexican, and Irish. I´m a Teaching Associate (meaning I teach and am also
in the last stages of the PhD program as a Graduate Student) in the History
Department at Arizona State University in Tempe, Arizona, in the southwest
part of the US. I´ve also been a Research Editor for the H-AmIndian academic
listserv, a Research Assistant at the Labriola American Indian Research Center,
and a Teaching Assistant at both Arizona State and Purdue University. Apaches
are probably best known as virtually the last Natives to war with the US
government. Goyathlay, better known as Geronimo, was the most famous Apache
warrior, and his descendants live today on the Mescalero reservation. It would
probably surprise most people to know that the Mescalero nation is fairly
prosperous, with a thriving lumber trade, ski resort, and sadly from my point
of a view, a nuclear waste dump/storage facility operating on the reservation.
Many other things about us might surprise outsiders. The most popular Apache
performing artists are Indian rappers such as Rolling Fox and Btaka, or blues/
traditional singers such as A Carlos Ortega. The most popular visual artist
Apaches have, Fritz Scholder, uses an Impressionist style of painting, even
while using Native themes.

by Hawk Silverstein
(d0n0harm [at] yahoo.com) Friday Aug 17th, 2007 5:37 PM
This is the email I sent to Heyoka magazine:

Dr. Mr. LeKay,

I’ve been reading your magazine online and I’m really impressed with how meticulously you have tried to access Mr. Alton Carroll’s tribal enrollment status. Given your deep concern for authenticity, I’m sure you’ll be able to help to decide what to think about your allegations as to Mr. Caroll’s character and ability to comment on those who purport to be Native American spiritual leaders by providing me with the following information:

Please provide tribal enrollment status, tribe band and telephone numbers of legitimate tribal leaders who can verify the status of:

Red Elk
Mala Spotted Eagle Pope
The unidentified individual referred to as "respected Lakota grandmother Robin,
Dan Asher,
Pete V Catches,
William Under Baggage,
John Martin,
David "Sitting Owl" Littlejohn
Jim MedicineTree
Jaye A. La Vallee
And yourself
Also please provide any known aliases for these individuals.

Given your stated commitment to getting down to the truth, I’m sure this will be no problem for you to produce this proof. I’ll need this information as soon as possible in order to help me make an intelligent decision about this controversy.

Thank you in advance for your help

Hawk Silverstein
President, Do No Harm,
Tucson, AZ




This is the response I received:

"Hawk"

You want to question my Lakota ancestry, I tell you what. If you can get that fucking Mexican asshole Al Carroll to prove he is in fact Apache, then I will show you all the documents, papers, enrollment numbers from the BIA etc;

Are you Native? I don't like it when non-Natives question or attack my people, you had better tread lightly there "Hawk" before you get hurt.

I will track you down like the wild pig you really are.

FUCK YOU VERY MUCH!!!!!!!!!!!





Debate over?
I think that everyone here should judge those involved by the content of their character.

I found a blog by Michelle Shining Elk has done a superb job of describing John Martin's character here:

http://badeagledotorg.blogspot.com/search?q=tallsoldier77

My personal experience with this man confirms just about everything said here.

Martin has been very active in defending LeKay all over the internet and I haven't heard LeKay try to distance himself from this man. Why is that?

Anyone who wants to may do an internet search on John Martin and decide for themsleves. He posts as either tallsoldier77 or jswifthawk.

Here are some other interesting sites about Yeagley and his association with Martin is mentioned

http://angryindian.blogspot.com/2007_03_04_archive.html
http://tryworks.org/blog/
http://www.davidyeagley.org/
http://editrixblog.blogspot.com/2007/02/sitting-duck.html
http://www.badeagle.org/

Martin is posting here from the same proxy he used to threaten me and he appears to be representing himself as LeKay:

http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?disc=199489;article=24418;title=Issues%20Affecting%20American%20Indians%20in%20Tennessee

I don't see why people can't see that Martin is a very disturbed individual who can't stand to let a minority opinion be stated on the internet. The issue is censorship and in these times, its a very important issue to pay attention to. The new age business interests are clearly trying to silence anyone who would speak out in the interest of the public.

The tobacco industry went to similar lenghts to silence people who tried to warn the public about a dangerous product. Business interests have always exerted excessive oppressive power on minority voices. I don't see what is happeining here as anything else.

I do not know if Mr. Lekay is a well intentioned person who has been fooled by Yeagly and Martin and anyone else involved, but it is suspicious to me that he has not made any public statements about Mr. Martin's outrageous behavior or corrected the impression Mr. Martin has been giving on the internet that he speaks for LeKay.

I do not believe in censorship.

I believe in a democracy it is important for the public to have access to all points of view. There should be no requirement that anyone's opinion be happy or positive of that they do some service to some community in order to speak their truth.

The discussion here is chilling when you consider it in terms of internet democracy and the preservation of civil liberties in cyber space.

We should all calm down and think about these things rationally before someone gets hurt.

Thank you for listening to me.

Anyone who wants to discuss these issues without resorting to racist or anti-semetic slurs or death threats is welcome to contact me by email.



Hawk Silverstein

by John LeKay
Friday Aug 17th, 2007 6:00 PM
Hi Hawk,

You just wrote me a few minutes ago and clearly stated below that John Martin contacted you after you contacted me. Please see below.


Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 19:38:28 -0400 [07:38:28 PM EDT]
From: info [at] heyokamagazine.com
To: Hawk S
Subject: Re: Fwd: A bone to pick.
Headers: Show All Headers

Dear Hawk,

I believe I forwarded your email to some of the people who you asked for their enrollment
papers. I believe there were at least 10 of the list. John Martin does not represent
heyoka magazine in any way. Elizabeth Mckenzie is the only other person who can speak
for heyoka magazine.


Quoting Hawk S :


Dear Mr. LeKay,

I am forwarding a message I received from tallsoldier77 [at] yahoo.com, John Martin.
I started receiviing messages from him immediately after I wrote to your publication.
I was wondering if you gave Mr. Martin my email address of any information about me
becasue he's threatening me. I have contacted the California authorities about his
behavior.

He has sent me several other threatening emails while claiming to be representing
your publication. Are you aware of this?
If Mr. Martin is not representing your publication, I strongly suggest that you make
this clear in your magazie.


Sincerely,

Hawk Silverstein

Note: forwarded message attached.

by John LeKay
Friday Aug 17th, 2007 6:19 PM
Hawk,

I have as much control over the London Times writing about me as I do John Martin, Noam Chomsky , Ward Churchill, Al Carroll, Barnasby McEwan or anyone else. This is a free country people have a right to express their opinions. Do you think John Martin has control over what I write. No he does not. Why do you assume I should have control over what he writes. If he wants to defend me that's his prerogative. If he wants to criticize or attack me. That's his prerogative as well.
by John LeKay
Friday Aug 17th, 2007 6:35 PM
"And BTW , all these accusations that Lekay's home address was posted on the NAFPS website are just part of a bigger pattern of Lekay playing the victim . The information posted in NAFPS is the same information that is available to anyone who does a whois domain search. Lekay is an adult and should know information he puts on line, like a domain registration that is open to the public, is open the the public "

That information has not been on who is for over 2 months now. Then I take it its ok to post Al Carroll's address? It was on "who is" for years. If its not off soon, I take that as a yes.
by shadowland
Friday Aug 17th, 2007 6:37 PM
"one who knows better" ??? Hmmm. I've been observing your comments. You try to purport yourself as very knowledgable so I thought I would check out what you are saying about the personal information that Al Carroll has posted on John LeKay and others. I looked up several WhoIs domains that reseach personal data and there was ABSOLUTELY NO PERSONAL ADDRESS LISTED ANYWHERE FOR JOHN LEKAY.

It is deplorable that you would condone such behavior by Al Carroll. Why anyone would intentionally post another person's private information online is beyond me, unless they were trying to cause harm to that person and that is CRIMINAL. As a parent, I find your lack of empathy disgusting!

From what I am gathering, this Al Carroll actually believes that through lies and intimidation, he can eliminate all criticism of his persona - HAH!!! There are other powers at work here and truth always WINS. Al Carroll is a LIAR! .

You come across as an Al Carroll GROUPIE...
by AbsolutelyShocked
Friday Aug 17th, 2007 7:58 PM
In reply to Cathy's information about Al Carroll claiming to represent the Mescalero Apache

This is a lot more serious than I realized . I now see it isn't just the Mescalero Apache he is claiming to represent . but the Irish and the country of Mexico as well ! Who the heck does Al Carroll think he is ?

I wonder how the Irish feel about Al "representing" them? He says he "is Irish" . But he never mentions he doesn't have Irish citizenship . And claiming to be Mexican ! How does Mexico feel about him representing them I wonder? Is he actually a citizen of Mexico ? Has anyone contacted the Mexican embassy to see if they know him ? I think you are so right . He is a very suspicious person and a liar for sure . People need to be real careful of that Al Carroll .

And giving basic information about the Mescalero Apache in an educational book and the proceeds being given to a children's charity . Oh it is so diabolical . You just stick with that full blood enrolled Lakota John Martin . Sounds like your type for sure . Just don't tell him who any of Al's friends and relatives are because for some very suspicious reason Al seems to think his relatives don't want to talk to him .

On a more serious note -
I agree that it's usually better if people don't claim to be of a tribe if everyone in the tribe doesn't claim them, but I also know elders who tell people 'this is who you are and you say who you are ' even if those people aren't enrolled . There is different opinions on that, and depending on the situation, it isn't really something that is right or wrong in itself.

But it seems this isn't really your concern or you would be pushing NAFPS to create a whole new category of frauds for people claiming to descend from a particular tribe, but who aren't enrolled . As I don't hear anyone doing this, it seems the real concern is to discredit Al Carroll and Trisha Jacobs in the hopes of discrediting the correct cultural information that exploiters and frauds don't want people to know . Can't you see how wrong that is ?

In reply to shadowland
If you can read , Barnaby says he found it in whois.opensrs.net: Domain name: HEYOKAMAGAZINE.COM
Maybe Lekay removed the information now . Presumably Lekay put it there . When you have to make up wrong doing to make it seem like a wrong was done, the only point you make is there was no real wrong doing .
by Who is
Friday Aug 17th, 2007 10:11 PM

Nice try but it doesn't work. Too convoluted. Humor is too silly. Not funny or absurd enough, its off. Looks like you are being a smart a&& to deflect. When you do that you really have to be bright. Read it back to yourself tomorrow and you will see its not being truthful, or very bright. You are tying to hard to not answer a simple question. Looks evasive anyone can see through this.

by getting closer
Friday Aug 17th, 2007 10:42 PM


"I agree that it's usually better if people don't claim to be of a tribe if everyone in the tribe doesn't claim them"

Very good. Progress is being made. This is getting closer. Now why do you think this is so?

"I also know elders who tell people 'this is who you are and you say who you are", even if those people aren't enrolled. There are different opinions on that, and depending on the situation, it isn't really something that is right or wrong in itself"

Do you know what the Mescalero Apache tribe's opinion of this is? This is not a Lakota matter. He is claiming to represent the Mescalero Apache nation on an international level in a film "Spirits for Sale" and in his books. The Mescalero Apache people that I have spoken to are proud of their heritage and immediately will announce their Mescalero Apache descendants (enrolled or otherwise). Does it state in the book "Indians Are Us" that he is enrolled or unenrolled. Most un-enrolled people state clearly that they are unenrolled. It's deceiving otherwise and gives the wrong impression.




by shadowland86
Friday Aug 17th, 2007 10:52 PM
So you approve of this action to post personal information online in a racist forum. How about if you forward your real name, address and phone number and maybe a couple of images of your family online and have Al and his "college buddies" take some shots at you. Consider your words carefully my friend.
by Seen enough
Saturday Aug 18th, 2007 1:19 AM
Please stop trying to defame, silence and intimidate people who are telling the truth . What else really matters ?
by onewhoknowsbetter
Saturday Aug 18th, 2007 5:25 AM
You still have not named any tribally recognized elders who have requested you stop people who are opposing cultural abuse and exploitation , but it is obvious from the film you keep fretting about, that recognized tribal elders are being supported by the people you are trying to discredit .

All we are getting close to, is being distracted from the fact the only people you seem to be interested in discrediting are the ones opposing cultural abuse and exploitation. There is no point trying to have a reasonable discussion with you, because you make stuff up and ignore all the information that won't support your own agenda .

Which appears to be promoting people as authoritative, who are not recognized as authoritative by their alleged tribe. And though it has been repeatedly pointed out to you how damaging this is you don't appear to care .

(I am not the same person as the earlier poster one who knows , I just notice the similarity in the name .)
by ask yourself this
Saturday Aug 18th, 2007 11:54 AM
No one is opposing cultural exploitation, abuse, and selling of ceremonies, or this film "Spirits for sale". Since no one has seen it yet. We all agree this abuse is wrong. That was NEVER the issue. That was pure fabrication from day one. The debate was about the manor in which people are accused of being frauds. The way allegations are made.

Just read the very first post and see an example of these lies. Even after Canadian filmmaker Louie Lawless film made the post above has any one corrected this lie. See here.

Al Carroll: "Lekay is spending huge sums of his own money to produce a film promoting the replacement of Arvol Looking Horse with Suzanne Dupree AKA "Looking Back Woman", an ex hairdresser who has been off the reservation for nearly twenty year yet claims to be the "true" possessor of the Lakota sacred pipe."

BIG LIE
by Louie Lawless
Sunday Aug 12th, 2007 3:12 PM

John LeKay is in no way involved with any film that I am doing or going to do, and he is not financing any film with me or for me.

Thanks Louie Lawless

This is libel. this is just one example of his libel . There are many many more here . Where is the correction? Why did Al Carroll circulate this libel and nonsense all over the internet? Ask yourself that question.

When you do and have an answer , then you can start calling yourself "one who knows better' . In the mean time call your self "one who has no idea what in talking about"




by ask yourself this
Saturday Aug 18th, 2007 12:06 PM
No one is opposing cultural exploitation, abuse, and selling of ceremonies, or this film "Spirits for sale". Since no one has seen it yet. We all agree this abuse is wrong. That was NEVER the issue. That was pure fabrication from day one. The debate was about the manor in which people are accused of being frauds. The way allegations are made.

Just read the very first post and see an example of these lies. Even after Canadian filmmaker Louie Lawless film made the post above has any one corrected this lie. See here.

Al Carroll: "Lekay is spending huge sums of his own money to produce a film promoting the replacement of Arvol Looking Horse with Suzanne Dupree AKA "Looking Back Woman", an ex hairdresser who has been off the reservation for nearly twenty year yet claims to be the "true" possessor of the Lakota sacred pipe."

BIG LIE
by Louie Lawless
Sunday Aug 12th, 2007 3:12 PM

John LeKay is in no way involved with any film that I am doing or going to do, and he is not financing any film with me or for me.

Thanks Louie Lawless

This is libel. this is just one example of his libel . There are many many more here . Where is the correction? Why did Al Carroll circulate this libel and nonsense all over the internet? Ask yourself that question.

When you do and have an answer , then you can start calling yourself "one who knows better' . In the mean time call your self "one who has no idea what in talking about"




by Look at the Clown
Saturday Aug 18th, 2007 2:56 PM
Who's really behind all of this?
Who is this man who is clogging up cyber-space with his irrational venom?

Many, many people have documented his psychosis:

Michelle Shining Elk, Brent Michael Davids, Dr. Alton Carrol to name a few

http://badeagledotorg.blogspot.com/search?q=martin

http://davidyeagley.blogspot.com/2007/05/badeaglecom-wracked-by-internal.html


He makes false claims about his military status:
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/land-forces/5705-imposters-8.html


Brent Michael Davids has documented his death threats here:

http://www.brentmichaeldavids.com/johnmartincalls.html

I like to judge a man by the content of his character and John Martin doesn't appear to have any.

John Martin may be the most vile man on the internet. He has absolutely no credibility. No one should take any of his allegations seriously. He hates Jews, Homosexuals, women, undocumented immigrants, Mexican Americans, Africans Americans and I think he even hates himself. No one should take anything he has to say seriously.

I can't understand why he hasn't been banned from the internet in the public interest.

Hope
Please ignore all the silly people trying to create a side issue out of Dr. Carroll's enrollment status.


Dr. Carroll has never falsely claimed to be entitled to sell Native American ceremonies.
John LeKay's magazine exists only to trick silly new age types into buying products from people he knows to be fakes. He's making an issue of Dr. Carroll's enrollment status so people won't look closely at the frauds he promotes - Mala Spotted Eagle, Red Elk and Sequoya Trueblood to name a few. They are not enrolled and the stuff they peddle is complete bull.

The Looking Horse Proclamation should have settled the dispute.

The New Agers dug up some crazy woman to try to smear Arvol because they don't want to stop profitting by ripping off ndnz. It's as simple as that.
LeKay and Martin represent New Age business interests.
NAFPS represent consumer intersts and skepticism

I always tend to side with the powerless, the minority opinion and those wha aren't trying to maka a fast buck.
This is about money.
LeKay and Martin are trying to pull a fast one by running around the internet claiming to be libeled when what really happened is that they were exposed as frauds and hypocrites. It's just a con game to distract potential suckers from the fact that every native "elder" on LeKays sight has a book or a workshop or a ceremony to push that is offensive to the majority of native people.

John Martin is crazy and doesn't represent the native position on anything. He's filled with hatred and his thoughts are twisted.

I applaud NAFPS for providing information to the public that LeKay and Martin don't want them to have. I have read their posts and they state that the group is open to anyone. I applaud this. They also state that there are over 300 members. Only 3 or so are of European descent. That's less than 1%. LeKay was dishonest in distorting this figure. I know that NAFPS represents the majority ndn opinion on new agers because I hear it in my own community, I go to pow wows and I know that there's nothing real ndns hate worse than new agers selling ceremonies.

I don't know if LeKay is well intentioned and easily fooled by the shake n bakes, twinkies and wannabes, but he clearly has a hippy boomer white western world view and is in no position to tell anyone who is an authentic elder. His interviews are extremely slanted and I agree that they are just advertisements for frauds.

The internet should be a place where you can get both sides to a story. LeKay and Martin have done everything in their power to stop people from hearing both sides and that really sucks.



Looking Horse Proclamation
on the Protection of Ceremonies

Source: Indian Country Today, April 25, 2003

Posted: April 25, 2003 - 10:17am EST
by: Arvol Looking Horse / Guest columnist

Chief Arvol Looking Horse, 19th Generation Keeper of the Sacred White Buffalo Calf Pipe, would like to thank all the People that attended this historic Protection of Ceremonies meeting.




* Bernard Red Cherries Northern Cheyenne Nation Northern Cheyenne Arrow Priest and Elk Society Headsman

* Tweety Little Bird Northern Cheyenne Nation Northern Cheyenne Elk Horn Scraper Society

* Lee Pedro Southern Arapahoe Nation Southern Arapahoe Rabbit Man (Holy Man)

* Dave Chief Ogallala Nation Lakota Spiritual Leader

* Dave Swallow Ogallala Nation Medicine Bundle Keeper

* Kevin Horse Looking Ogallala Nation Medicine Bundle Keeper

* Floyd Hand Ogallala Nation Medicine Bundle Keeper

* Silo Black Crow Ogallala Nation Medicine Bundle Keeper

* Sam Moves Camp Ogallala Nation Medicine Bundle Keeper

* Chris Leith Prairie Island Dakota Community Medicine Bundle Keeper

* Gaylen Drapeau Sr. I-hank-to-wa (Yankton Sioux) Nation Medicine Bundle Keeper

* Gaylen Drapeau Jr. I-hank-to-wa (Yankton Sioux) Nation Medicine Bundle Keeper

* Ambrose Little Ghost Spirit Lake Dakota Nation Dakota Spiritual Leader

* Calvin Medicine Bear First Assinoboine Nakota Nation Nation Spiritual Leader

* Leonard Crow Dog Si-c an-g u Rosebud Sioux Nation Medicine Bundle Keeper

* Roy Stone Sr. Si-c an-g u Rosebud Sioux Nation - Medicine Bundle Keeper

* Ned Medcalf Si-c an-g u Rosebud Sioux Nation Interpretor/advisor

* Leon Red Dog Hoh -wo-ju Cheyenne River Sioux Nation - Medicine Bundle Keeper

* Steve Vance Hoh -wo-ju Cheyenne River Sioux Nation Medicine Bundle Keeper

* Francis Yellow Hoh -wo-ju Cheyenne River Sioux Nation Medicine Bundle Keeper

* Jacob Sanderson Cree Nation Canada Medicine Bundle Keeper

* Kevin Ta-c an Sioux Valley Manitoba Dakota Nation Dakota Spiritual Leader

O n March 8th and 9th, Spiritual Leaders and Bundle Keepers of the Lakota, Dakota, Nakota Nation, Cheyenne Nation and Arapahoe Nation were called together to discuss the protection from the abuse and exploitation of our ceremonies. The meeting was held at the Cultural Center in Eagle Butte, South Dakota, hosted by the Cheyenne River Sioux Tribe. I would also like to acknowledge the financial donation from the Prairie Island Dakota Community.

Discussions in the meeting included the molestation taking place in ceremony, indecent mockery, mixing of new age beliefs, charging for ceremonies and death, which was never heard of before in our ancient ceremonial history. There was also discussion of the use of other medicines (drugs) in and around our ceremonies. When the White Buffalo Calf Woman brought the Sacred Bundle, she instructed that only those with a pure mind and heart should touch the Canupa. The ceremonies in question, in reference to all the Plains Tribes, were the I-ni-pi (Purification Ceremony), Wi-wanyang-wa-c i-pi (Sundance Ceremony) and Han-ble-c i-ya (vision quest) Sacred Rites.

We put out notice in the newspapers, native radio stations and also contacted people through the phone. I offered prayers for the safe journey of the People to this very important historic meeting. Those that could not attend, I acknowledge their prayers for a good outcome for our concerns.

After long discussion and testimonies of the concerns and issues, it was decided that it would be up to me, as the Keeper of the Sacred White Buffalo Calf Pipe to make a decision. It was good to feel the beginning of a Unity amongst our People. This has been my concern for many decades, especially now, when we are facing an oncoming war. We need to stand strong with our ceremonies!

I will state what the decision is and also explain the reasons. I will state the protocols to our Seven Sacred Rites, which were passed down to me when I became the next Keeper at the age of 12 years old. These protocols are traditional knowledge passed down through our oral history and need to be brought back to strengthen our Ho-c o-ka (our sacred alters) once again.

I will also address the areas that I cannot be involved in. My responsibility is the Seven Sacred Rites.

It was decided, from March 9th, 2003 and forward, there will be NO non-Natives allowed in our sacred Ho-c o-ka (our sacred alters) where it involves our Seven Sacred Rites. The only protection with this decision in Government law; is that only enrolled members can carry an eagle feather. In all the Seven Sacred Rites, there has always been the understanding of earning and a requirement of an eagle feather while participating in these Rites. The eagle feather stands for Indigenous knowledge and guidance in our spiritual ways

* The Wi-wanyang-wa-c i-pi (Sundance Ceremony): The only participants allowed in the center will be Native People. The non-Native people need to understand and respect our decision. If there have been any unfinished commitments to the Sundance and non-Natives have concern for this decision; they must understand that we have been guided through prayer to reach this resolution. Our purpose for the Sundance is for the survival of the future generations to come, first and foremost. If the non-Natives truly understand this purpose, they will also understand this decision and know that by their departure from this Ho-c o-ka (our sacred alter) is their sincere contribution to the survival of our future generations.

* Please understand the Wi-wanyang-wa-c i-pi Ceremony is not only taking place in the center (Ho-c o-ka) with the dancers. The ceremonial participation also depends on all the supporters on the outside of the arbor who should be in prayer. From the gate, to the cook shack, to the fire-keepers, to the supporters around the arbor, to even the moon camp, all people are still a part of this sacred ceremony.

* There should be a preparation of Han-ble-c i-ya (vision quest) before you become a participant of the Sundance.

* We shall go back into this ceremony with the proper protocols before and during the ceremony itself. Only those that have had the dream or direction through a ceremony, in concern of someone's health, should be dancing. Dancers should be secluded from outside participants, as to not be contaminated by other peoples energy or thoughts. There should be absolutely no food or water during this four-day ceremony. If there are health problems, you should choose a person to finish your commitment. This ceremony is supposed to be for those that believe they can fulfill all required four days of the ceremony.

* Han-ble-c i-ya (Vision Quest): The vision quest should be ONLY for Native People that have had the dream or vision. This Rite is also for the young men and women that reach the age of 12 years of age.

* I-ni-pi (Purification Ceremony): Those that run this sacred rite should be able to communicate with Tun-ca-s i-la (our Sacred Grandfathers) in their Native Plains tongue. They should also have EARNED this rite by completing Han-ble-c i-ya and the four days and four years of the Wi-wanyang wa-c i-pi.

* The other four sacred rites of the Hun-ka ka-g a (Making of a Relative), the Ta-pa kah -g o-ya (Throwing of the Sacred Ball), Wi-yan is -na ti (Womanhood Ceremony) and the Na-g i glu-ha (Keeping of the Spirit Ceremony), should be only handled by legitimate Lakota, Dakota, Nakota Oyate (People).

• It was also decided only legitimate Lakota, Dakota, Nakota Oyate Medicine Bundle Keepers should handle any other ceremonies that are connected to our Ho-co-ka, such as the Lo-wa-pi and U-wi-pi ceremonies.

• There should be no price tag allowed to participate in any of our Sacred Ceremonies. The only protocol needed for a ceremony is to o-pa-g i, meaning to offer your C anupa or offer tobacco that has been prayed with, in which the Medicine Person accepts or not accept if he is not able to assist. Medicine People do need to survive, and if people wish to give a monetary or any other gifts after they receive their help from ceremony, giving it from their hearts, I see no problem with that. We have to have faith that the Grandfathers will provide for our needs to survive in this modern society; whether the gift is money, blankets, food or anything that represents how much they appreciate the help. Some people can afford big gifts, some people cannot. It all balances out.

• My position is only for the Seven Sacred Rites. I cannot dictate to our Medicine People who they allow to attend and support these Rites, in reference to non-Native People. I cannot dictate who they choose to doctor in their ceremonies. I cannot dictate where they travel to doctor.

• I have my own personal feelings on who should be Keepers of our Sacred C anupa (Pipe). The C anupa is very sacred and the Keeper should first be given a dream and be of Native decent. This issue should be further discussed in our future meetings. The reason for my feelings is that I am aware the C anupa has gone out to the International community and has been for sale. I know that most non-Native People do not understand the important protocols or have had the Traditional background to carry this sacred item properly. I am aware of women in their moon and men with blood on their hands (to take ones life intentionally) have been allowed to touch and carry the C anupa. These serious situations were never to be allowed. I offer thanks to the non-Native People that have returned the C anupa to our People, after I privately shared my concerns with them. I acknowledge their true sincerity in assisting our Nation to protect the survival of our Traditional way of life on behalf of our future generations. They have helped us bring back honor and respect to our sacred Ho-co-ka and C anupa.

• There was also discussion of only the Plains Tribal members to participate in the Ho-co-ka of the Wi-wanyang wa-c i-pi and the Han-ble c i-ya Ceremonies. In the early 70 s, Chief Fools Crow and my father Stanley Looking Horse decided to allow other Native Nations to participate in these Rites. Their reasons were based on the fact that most Nations have lost their ways through assimilation or lack of Teachers to teach their Indigenous ways. They honored and understood the unity of the First Nations People when different Tribes came to the aid of the Wounded Knee Occupation. I cannot undo their decision out of respect for our Chief and Elder. It has also been in our history that our Ancestors have respectfully shared our ceremonies with other Indigenous Nations.

• The original teachings were that the Pipe Carrier should make their own C anupa. There was an understanding of the sincere spiritual energy and the traditional values passed down through our bloodlines. All the values of compassion, love, honor, respect and truth are molded into the spiritual life they are creating. I hope that one day the future generations will again pick up this important protocol.

I would like to invite all our Lakota, Dakota, Nakota Nations to the next ceremony when I bring out the Sacred White Buffalo Calf Bundle. The dates in the fall will be announced. During this time we will place the 12 honorable compassionate men to assist in taking care of the concerns of the Sacred C anupa. We will also discuss the protocols of the need to have a good mind and good heart to be a member of the Societies that will carry out these decisions in a respectful manner.

There will be another Protection of Ceremonies meeting to further discuss and address these serious issues in the future. This meeting will be sponsored by the Cheyenne Nation.

Once again, I thank all those that have offered prayers for these very serious issues to be discussed and handled in a good way.

In the Sacred Hoop of Life, where there is no ending and no beginning!

Mitakuye Oyasin, Arvol Looking Horse,

19th Generation Keeper of the Sacred White Buffalo Calf Pipe
by cuck fuster
Saturday Aug 18th, 2007 3:52 PM
Get real - the "elders" that LeKay interviewed are ALL selling ceremony. No abuser ever admits he's abusing. It's called Denial.

Clearly we don't all agree that abuse is wrong. There are hundreds of frauds going around abusing sacred ceremony and they're all looking for a justification for making a fast buck. If they thought their abuse was wrong they would stop it, but all they see is a real easy way to make money off from gullible fools. All the frauds say they oppose OTHER PEOPLE who are exploiting. That's a favorite twinkie trick - take the spot light off of your own abuse by pointing the finger at a competitor. If you can't do that then point the finger at your critics. Talk about how negative and hateful and unChristian they are for telling you you can't make a fast buck rippin off the ndns just like your ancestors did.

LeKay's elders are out to make a fast buck. They will continue to abuse ceremonies for profit as long as there's someone out there desperate and stupid enough to pay them for it. This whole thing blew up because LeKay and Martin don't want NAFPS exposing the weirdos they want to promote. It's bad for business. The internet is about selling crap that nobody needs. Wake up.

What about the fact that LeKay is European and he's meddling in Lakota business by giving
Suzanne Dupree a platform to spread her foolishness? What business does a whiteman have putting up a zine with her idiocy in it? Did LeKay even try to contact the legitimate Lakota elders and find out what their perspective was on Dupree? What kind of journalistic integrity is that?
How fair and balanced is it to find some crazy woman who'll say what you want her to say and put her babbling on the internet? The whiteman can always find a sell out to act as his mouth piece.
That's the nature of our oppression. The history of the whiteman getting to define who is a good or a bad ndn is as long as his illegal occupation of this land. LeKay does what all oppressors do. He goes out and finds some fool to say what he thinks ndns should be saying - oh I wants to help the massar! I want to pray hard to make him spitulal like me! I wants to be a house red nigga! Then massa rewards the good injun with lots of praise and attention. You can always find weak fools like Martin to lap up the attention from the whiteman. This guy is so skrewed up he'd do anything to lick the massa's boots.

If you are so concerned about libel, how can you ignore what LeKay was publishing on the internet a few days ago?

Nobody forced him to publish those outrageous, totally slanted pieces that tried to link skepticism with mass murder, terrorism and everything dark and evil on the planet.

That was over the top and it only made LeKay look like a crazy person.

The "interviews" that LeKay posted were so soft-ball they looked more light late night info-mercials. He never asked these "elders" any hard questions about why they were going around the country spreading lies about native spirutiality and he still refuses to provide proof that THEY are even enrolled.

The personal attacks on Al Carroll make him look even crazier.

Do you really think that Al Carroll is the only ndn to criticize all the new age exploitation that goes on on the internet? You are totally out of touch with reality if you think those hang around the forts that LeKay has collected are in any way representative of what ndns really think! Carroll, enrolled or not, is more representative of us than Lekay's crazy sell outs will ever be.

I've never met an ndn who didn't say much much worse things about the new agers stealing our ways and acting like complete idiots while doing it. The stuff on NAFPS was mild compared to what real ndns say about new agers. Any ndn on or off the rez, urban, academic, even homeless will tell you the same thing. You can't go anywhere where there are ndns without hearing someone complain about how annoying and offensive these new age wannabee fools are. They're too indoctrinated by popular culture to realize that they can't find spirituality in workshops or midnight drumming sessions or twinkie sweatlodges and especially not on the internet. I've never seen ndns agree on anything but we're united in our contempt for new age spiritual exploitation. And we all seem to agree on who the frauds are. Just because LeKay is an outsider and can't see a fraud when there's one standing right in front of his face doesn't give him the right to go around shutting up people who know a fraud when they see one.

Why doesn't LeKay stay out of ndns business anyway? Who made him king of the twinkies?




by Cuck Fuster
Saturday Aug 18th, 2007 5:04 PM
Now don't take my word for it - go get on you tube or google video and look up Red Elk and see for yourself the kind of bullshit that LeKay's Loonies think is ndn


RED ELK’s WISDOM

HILARIOUS RED ELK VIDEOS ON YOU TUBE

Thunderbirds Lizard People & Earth Changes Pt.1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6KzCresdjs
CLAIMS: Red Elk claims to be an inter-tribal medicine man, a member of Heyoka society, member of Red Web society whose mission is to bring hidden sacred knowledge to public
Claims to be Black Feet and Shoshone Cherokee Nation’s twisted hair society
He later claims to speak Cree after spending 3 months with the Cree.
“They went against tradition they did what we the native we hold sacred knowledge they went against the tradition of no we keep this for themselves I begged many Indian people lose the knowledge you’ve got it because it’s to be given for now.”

Thunderbirds Lizard People & Earth Changes Pt.2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgT2h4DJP34&mode=related&search=
Red Elk tells about Thunderbirds mostly down in South America that had a twenty-seven inch wingspan.
“I spent three months with the Cree Indians (located all over Canada and down into the United States
They are a huge bunch of sweethearts and some pains in the rear as a National I love em I wish I was Cree.”
“Five women came to me very hesitantly and said Red Elk we have something to share they thought they were in trouble sharing this you could see it in their eyes they are the protectors of the thunderbirds and they were stepping out of bounds as a society by coming to me and presenting this knowledge to me
Protector of the thunderbird bird cave of the three mountains up there by the Yukon in a face of the cliff of the three mountains a slope that goes down inside granite
They started chatting away in Cree and one of them looked at me and said he knows

“I am called to go back to the sacred bird cave – the ancient breeding ground before one of the 4 of 5 flips of earth and what happened is that explosions and volcanoes and everything and they left their eggs there and I rode them I rode their mind medicine people know what I’m talking about Pterodactyls flying around thousands of birds but these are the human type thinkers of the birds 22 -28 foot wing span they’re eagles but they’re something else .”

“The top medicine man of the Cree across Canada the top medicine man is going to make me a eagle flute er not flute or eagle whistle and I’ve got to climb this mountain.
I’ll do it if I’ve got the money to do it.
I’ve got a certain ceremony and I will literally call them back to their old breeding ground and this is one of the jobs that I’ve got to do I only have three backers.”
Noory: How big were the eggs?

“Alex Kahenakey (spelling?) is the Cree medicine man that I’m speaking of. At this big pow wow he came to me and he said Red Elk I have some men that would like to talk to you and show you something and they brought in this stone the size of a woman’s bowling ball perfectly round. He talked to them in Cree and I said well give it to me and let me see what it’s all about. I shut my eyes and do what I do and place it to my forehead and I said this is not a stone it’s an egg and there’s a prehistoric embryo and it’s about to give birth and peck its way out. They got all about it they have prehistoric stone stick nests they’re like our eagle nests except that they were on the rocks. They’re very sacred and they try to keep the whites away from it because they’re a bunch of idiots but nevertheless I’m to go back and call the thunderbirds home and you will see them all over North America again. They try to pick up children. I regular eagle is a scavenger you see them when the cows are calving and they eat the placenta and they will grab a calf if they can do it and try to haul it off. They were migrating into Central America and they would follow the great buffalo heards and they would try to eat the placenta and grab calves. Well Whiteman being Whiteman said lets go out and kill these things so.”

Thunderbirds Lizard People & Earth Changes Pt.3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBg1CBE7dXI&mode=related&search=


“…but I’ve got to do that ceremony with the whistle and some other things”

Noory: there’s an old Native American legend with the Pie- eh-sah bird it sounds like a thunderbird
RED ELK: “I was with Mr. Stuart Best doing Earth changes documentary in Menominee WI
We are Nineveh which was an event foretelling about this event telling because Nineveh was so anti-god and doing the same thing god sent Johan to go warn em.
Maybe a giant sand flee will get me next.
Nineveh repented, that means that better than 85% repented that means turn away from sin, turn away from disobedience to the creator that means god
I’ve been called all kinds of liar and stuff like that.”
“Mel’s hole it’s got plants that are plastic that are sound censors, this little out building is maybe 16 by 16 all the way around oddly enough I thought the roof lifted but no it opens like a book they open this all the time and big ships come down and unload I don’t care what you believe I don’t care if you think I’m nuts I’m not here to lie to people. It appears that UFO activity that was spurodic (sic) has just about died down in Kenokast County. That hole is 271/2 miles deep it’s a bore hole from Mt Rainier the Indians the Yakimas keep that secret with good reason otherwise the dam government will have that too I ran into all kinds of trouble I’ve been followed by helicopter one of those black ones it was about time for one of those ufo to come in and the next thing I know here come the police. “

“A police officer I know said Red Elk we know about Mel’s hole, be careful.
It’s connected to other the Dracillian race the lizards everybody thinks I’m crazy use that to load and unload ships”


Thunderbirds Lizard People & Earth Changes Pt.4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctvj2dfKJuA&mode=related&search=
“they bring stuff down into their lower cavern of living areas. What they unload are sacred bones they murder people grind it and put it in white gold it’s for longevity I took another medicine man over there and it just scared the daylights out of him.”
“They had to murder the red headed woman from (Izza quaw spelling?) I think. They’re our brothers and sisters they think they’re god if there’s a god they’re it if there’s a devil they’re it I’ve had my run ins with them but they’re very very real”

“They have no human features at all dragon skin is basically scaly they look like an upright walking lizard they’re got a mottled green and khaki none of them are really tall maybe 6 2 at the very tallest. They’ve got a lizard face but they’re people. I call them brother and sister they are very violent but I’m not afraid of them so that makes them afraid of me.
Extraterrestrial lizard people first group of outer space beings that came to earth after man was first made literally the first soul bearing people after Lucifer came and set up his base in the center of our earth. They spend centuries and centuries down there. I’ve got a book called the agenda and I sell that and frankly I don’t mind pushing it I’ve got a lot of things to do and I’m deep in debt.”

“Nevertheless, they’re real people and you know I love Lucifer can you believe that I truly love Lucifer well yes stop and think about it you’re Christian bent out you God is in all things
This is talk to papa and love him. Let me explain god is in all things. Now in time travel, now I’m an expert in time travel I literally can claim that that’s one of my specialties time travel being a heyoka is one of my specialties. God says you love me and that’s why you’re serving me and I want to invent a new people with souls and I want to give them self will and choice and they can’t have it unless they’ve got another area to go to now this is his second in command and god said I want to know if you would do that job and Lucifer loving god said well yeah but I want to warn you will turn your back on me”
“But thank god for Lucifer wasn’t here doing his job of temptation only we’re the ones to grab it and run
He got to really want to be god without Lucifer we would not have self will we would not have choice isn’t it wonderful of Lucifer to say yeah I’ll do it….
Can’t you just love the whole plan the whole reason for it I love Lucifer and because I love him its and agape love force and because I love this great being he’s afraid of me and I have actually faced this great being ….
No sexual organs at all no angels just a body man would just die for
About 22 foot tall no horns wasn’t red no long tail he was blacker than black
Beautiful angel except for that face”


Thunderbirds Lizard People & Earth Changes Pt.5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ire4FF0cXCo&mode=related&search=
Bible believers don’t believe the bible God occasionally has an assignment for me and sends me down to the pits of hell the first time I went I was cocky and I ended up with a bite mark on my upper and lower back from a demon so when I go down I go down with all kinds of angel support I go down there when I’m ordered down to do what he wants down
Tunnels with very small caves that goes all around the world his generals the angels that originally fallen I opened my mouth and I yelled out hey Lucifer it’s me its red elk come here I want to talk to you.

… more I’m a Heyoka time traveler stuff …

“You’re job is to be a baby in papas arms
You just crawl into his lap and say papa bubbah hurt me … more baby talk … If it doesn’t work out don’t worry about it and say daddy I’d sure like to have them do better
You just get in my lap and I’ll take care of it



Thunderbirds Lizard People & Earth Changes Pt.6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOiJYOpeGhY&mode=related&search=
THE LITTLE PEOPLE
“I’m a dip.”
Caller: You were talking about the little people.There is an area here that little creatures known as she devils and they’ve been know n to tear the tops out of metal campers noticed a fish laying along the bank with a really neat incision on its belly nobody here eats carp in a tree right over from where the fish was they found a claw 5 -6 inches long with knuckle bone and hair on it
Found a claw embedded in the tree

RED ELK: I’d love to meet them You’ve got a power spot of evil and I have to occasionally go out and clear this out and square them away I love them I don’t care how bad they are and they can’t beat me because I love them …


Sasquatch there’s interesting people and folks they are people not animals. You got a power spot of evil and somebody in knowledge not just me there’s other not don’t go to some danged New age medicine person book learned idiot I have to repair their work constantly but they mean well There’s people out there that know how to calm these spots and close these things down
But the earth is grating vortexes and stuff like that it’s going to get worse and worse you’re going to see things that you could not possibly you me no problem but you could not possibly conceive even exist.

Noory: what are the warnings out there?

RED ELK: Well watch your news and see. The great toosami that hit in Indonesia or whatever but that was god saying yeah now I’ve got these 5000 or whatever now they’re save I sacrificed 5000 lives for billions of lives the towers going down this is a warning Katrina this is a warning won’t you people ever wake up

CALLER: What about the Anasazi?

RED ELK: The Anasazi were put down here by beings as slaves they were always watching the sky knowing that someday the slave master would come back and take them back up there

Caller: I’ve heard there’s a reptilian race supposedly alien and yet a friend of mine her boss
Shape shifts into a reptilian.

Red Elk: There’s a lot of half breeds that do this there all over the earth in half breed form you might be married to one I’ve seen it happen myself.

Caller: How can the interbreed with the human race?

Red Elk: The same way a man breeds with a woman honey, their sperm is matchable to your egg …

“You see they want our gold they want to be kings they want to be god over earth
This white gold mixed with a certain kind of murder of one of our human beings mixed with this white gold gives longevity that allows our their queen to live for thousands of years.”

Noory: 2 hours and 40 minutes of Red Elk scaring the heck out of you

The Search for Bigfoot - EPISODE #1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxtThtXCYCw&mode=related&search=
more silly crap about big foot

The Search for Bigfoot - EPISODE #2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgXHhHDpJv8&mode=related&search=
“I’ve got five spirits that basically protect my area and one of them is big foot.”:

“…they pick up your thoughts they’re excellent at telecommunication …
just be casual like I am its’ good to see you would you care to sit down just make motions of eating
peel the orange teach em how to eat it right.”

“…they find the bodies and their heads are off they don’t find the heads
they have killed people generally in self defense
They have basic black ops stealth that we train our seals and stuff actual invisibility they become a camelian and become whatever’s around them I’ve learned to do that myself.”


The Mexican people They want me to go down there and talk to them.
It shows up quite regularly mumbling looking at people and trying to say something.

“I can levitate. It’s hell man I haven’t got enough feathers to fly.” Yeah you can list you can levitiate it I’ve taught it to the listeners of Art Bell he’s got 22.6 million listeners. My olderst grandson he’s the one that did it twice. You think you’re a feather and two people are trying to goose you and you go up but if you start thinking your smoke“

“Early last winter I went to the time cave but because the queen of the inner people the gnomes and fairies and stuff they’ve got a queen and she wanted to see me she sent some
And I got so mad at her I said, never send those dam things again …”







Prophesy Keepers Radio
The year 2006
http://www.prophecykeepers.com/redelk11.html

With your old buddy Blue Otter coming to you from bugger county in mid America in the mysterious Ozarks ….
Red Elk talks about his dreams and how he can auction off money from space aliens so he’d have plenty of money to go into parallel time. “I know how to open up this time physically and I was told that there’s less than a handful that know how to do this.”


During the tower of Bable the continent was all one land mass that’s when it all broke apart. In this case the ice was the breaking up of the contin-net. So literally, doing nothing more that ramming this old rock and shaking it you know you go out and give a big chunk a hit
No earthquake is going to take this down
These are the safe places to build on earth when it comes to the flipping of the earth the wind
I found a piece of land but I’ll be danged if I can afford it.

An Icy Winter is Coming
http://www.prophecykeepers.com/redelk10.html
talks about going to four corner spirits and presenting tobacco “I actually see the four corner spirits when I pray, I actually see them.” “The one that’s the supervisor over the other three, a giant angel the southern spirit is much my own size about 5’5” 5’6” he looks very very human, a wonderful old black man…”
“the Western spirit we call storm this is a rolling thunder mass as far as you can see and it’s got a face in it it’s a cloudlike face the Northern spirit is a female archangel and they have no sex organs “ “the Eastern spirit is a non nonsense angel his wings were drooping behind him and he looked very dejected and very despondent. I’ve never seen this angel in such a mood. …”

And then to the northern spirit this woman looked uncomfortable not wanting to do what she’s going to do but carrying out their orders. Just a cold flat ice, nothing above it … They were hopin people would get right so they wouldn’t have to do what they were ordered to do. …The Northern spirit will start sending this icy chill and storm would spread it. It appears as if the Southern states or the southern hemisphere is going to be very, very affected. They didn’t want to do it but they had to do it because they obey the creator.

It’s Time to Prepare
http://www.prophecykeepers.com/redelk7.html
more Xian cataclysmic crap …
“Tim Piikiikootz he and I he shared some real interesting information with me like I seem to have some real insight into the good book he has
As a medicine man and as a heyoka and as a spiritual leader in my dreams I go through amazing adventures. Truly only the full blood people would understand what I’m talking about. The rest of the world they have lost their touch with the unusual which at the tim
Exorcisms. ..you’re all familiar with that. Oh gosh doing sacred spots and opening it up for my brothers and sisters of the full blood. They know its sacred, they might they don’t know how to get the knowledge to activate these things. With my training I simply go back and time and I talk to an elder of that particular time. … but I’m back in time, they’re not dead. They’ll tell me what to do and I tell that to Alex Kayenakew, the medicine man I work with and we’ve activated a whole bunch a spot. To the white world anything Indigenus (sic) they think we’re crazy … Is the ability to time travel … with in time travel I go back before it was ever destroyed I can read some of the insignias and I can trace some of the strange writings or sit and watch a ceremony that was being perfomed three of four hundred years ago and tell it to Alex and they go out and perform it … to me in that great world of travel there is no lost knowledge.
“He goes by the name Elk Chief he’s the head of the Red Web society of which I’m a member. He’s been in Germany.

“There are two types of so called sasquatch one of them is not from our planet, they’re from another planet… unless you know one from the other you see one and you think you see the other type not knowing there’s two types.”






It just goes on and on …

What person in their right mind would believe that this man knows anything about Native Spiritual beleifs?????

JOHN LEKAY that’s who.

http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.1.CONTRIB.htm

Extra-ordinary claims require extra-ordinary proof – EXCEPT in Heyoka magazine!!!!

                     










by Hernia man
Saturday Aug 18th, 2007 8:22 PM
How interesting. Anytime any one gets bear the truth Big foot enters the picture.

Red Elk has a right to be interviewed like anyone else. If he wants to believe in bigfoot, the loch ness monster or planet of the apes that does not mean you have to as well. There are all sorts of people in this world. That does not mean the person that interviewed him believes in what he believes. Or is promoting him, is his PR agent or conducting an infomercial.

For example David Eich believes the president of the Untied States is a lizard. Now does that mean just because the BBC interviews him the BBC now believe that George Bush is a lizard?

He calls himself an inner "heyoka" Now maybe that has a little bit to do with why he was interviewed.

I wonder if its possible that an interview could be an investigation and not an infomercial?

No how could that be.

Now think about it before you give your self a hernia.





by Environmental activist
Saturday Aug 18th, 2007 8:42 PM
Does that mean stay out of this business as well? What do you believe is more important. These issues or one big foot interview? Why are you throwing the baby out with the bath water for big foot?

Harold One feather. Hunkpapa Lakota. Environmental activist
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.4.ENVIRO.HaroldOneFeather.htm
Robert Robideau. AIM leader. Artist and human rights activist
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.7.RobertRobideau.htm
Charmaine whiteface. Environmental activist. Defenders of the Black Hills.
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.7.ENVIRO.CharmaineWhitetFace.htm
William Under baggage. Lakota. Human rights activist and founder of Indigenous peoples network.
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.4.ENVIRO.WilliamUnderBaggage.htm
Pete Catches, Lakota. 39 generation medicine man
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.6.MEDICINE.PeteCatches.htm
Larry Merculieff. Athabascan environmental activist.
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.7.LarryMerculieff.htm
Timothy Benally. Navajo. environmental activist.
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.4.ENVIRO.TomothyBenally.htm
Garvard Good Plume. Lakota. human rights activist
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.6.GarvardGoodPlume.Interview.htm
Melenie McBee, Lakota. human rights activist.
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.7.MelanieMcbee.htm
Jodi Rave. Lakota. Journalist.
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.7.HUMAN-RIGHTS.Rape.htm
Jaye A. La Vallee . Lakota. Experiential therapist
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.8.Jaye.A.LaVallee.htm
Jimmy Durham. Artist. First Nations Affiliation:  Cherokee.
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.2.JIMMI%20DURHAM.htm
Buffy Sainte Marie. Cree. Musician.
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.3.PAINT.BUFFY.htm
Red feather woman. Sioux/Assiniboine tribes. musician Story teller
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.3.MUSIC.ROSE%20RED%20ELK.htm
HOCK E AYE VI . Edgar Heap of Birds. Artist. http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.3.SCULPT.EDGAR.htm
Sam Durant. artist
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.3.SCULPT.SAM%20DURANT.htm
sklyar wolf. Navajo. Human rights activist. musician.
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.6.MUSIC.SkylarWolf.htm
Jim tree. Cherokee . spiritual adviser.
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.6.PIPE.JimMedicineTree.htm
Bud Johnson. President pipe keepers
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.6.BudJOHNSTON.htm

NON NATIVE PEOPLE WHO HAVE HELPED RAISE AWARENESS ABOUT NATIVE AMERICAN CAUSES

Peter Buffet. musician, philanthropist
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.2.PETER%20BUFFETT.htm
Helen Calidicott. Nobel prize nominee, scientist
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.4.ENVIRO.HelenCaldicott.htm
David Michael Kennedy. photographer.
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.3.FOTOS.%20D%20M%20KENNEDY.1.htm
Doug Brugge. Environmental activist
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.4.ENVIRO.DOUGE%20BRUGGE.htm
Harvey Arden. Human rights activist.
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.8.HarveyArden.htm
Dr Diane Sterns. Scientist.
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.4.ENVIRO.Diane%20Stearns.htm
Kevin Annett. human rights activist.
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.6.KevinAnett.htm
Peter coyote .Actor. human rights and environmental activist
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.9.PeterCoyote.htm
Adi Roche. Environmental activist
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.9.AdiRoche.1.htm
Trudi blue. Poet
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.9.TrudiBlue.htm
Remy C. environmental activist
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.9.RemyC.Letter.htm


by Barnaby
Sunday Aug 19th, 2007 5:57 AM
John Martin/Tallsoldier can't help it with the racism, it seems. And Lekay is still claiming that his "private" information is not available any more in whois searches. I just checked, and he is wrong about that. I doubt very much whether his registrar changed the domain record and then changed it back. Check for yourself:

http://resellers.tucows.com/whois/index_html

http://whois.domaintools.com/heyokamagazine.com

http://www.betterwhois.com/
by The Gag Reflex
Sunday Aug 19th, 2007 9:23 AM
The long list of non offensive and even informative articles included in the Heyoka publication doesn't justify the one sided promotion of people distorting ndn beliefs and culture .

A small piece of rotten meat can make you sick. Mixing it in with other good food only disguises the problem, and may trick someone into swallowing it, who would have been disgusted if they saw it just by itself .
by Jus my opinion
Sunday Aug 19th, 2007 10:56 AM
Lekay needs to take some responsibility for the misinformation he has been spreading .

Lekay ignored the abundant on line information about that John Martin is not credible, and instead Lekay published a whole article featuring John Martin's opinion on NAFPS and Al Carroll.

The article seems to be disappearing fast, but the cached article still comes up if you use the right search engine ;
( I found this using Dogpile)
9.
JOHN MARTIN ON NAFPS
JOHN MARTIN ON NAFPS . This interaction is with a man named John Martin. A full blooded Lakota who went on the forum under the pseudonym Steve W to question Al Carroll about his ...
heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.9.JohnMartinOnNAFPS.htm [Found on Windows Live]

Lekay ignored it when he was told John Martin had threatened people and was potentially violent. Even a small amount of research would have confirmed this as likely to be true. Instead Lekay publicly accused Al Carroll of lying about this.

Published statement in Heyoka magazine, by John Lekay
RESPONSE TO JAYE LA VALLEE
"Or when really pushed, he will fabricate and say that full blooded Lakota John Martin has threatened his parents as another excuse for not giving his mother's maiden name. Then he tops it off with labeling him a white supremacist."

Though Lekay frequently tries to frighten people by reminding them their statements may be libel, it apparently hasn't occurred to him publicly accusing someone of lying, when they could easily be proven to be telling the truth, is the very wrong doing Lekay continuously accuses others of .

In spite of having been warned John Martin has made death threats , Lekay passed people's emails along to John Martin and three people report having received emails from John Martin in response to an email they sent to John Lekay . ( Johnnie a member of NAFPS, Hawk Silverstien , and Marie above )

Lekay has taken no responsibility for his negligence in publishing false and defamatory information provided to him by John Martin, or for putting people at risk by promoting John Martin as a credible person. Lekay has taken no responsibility for repeatedly passing along private emails, to someone Lekay had been told, was potentially violent and had threatened people.

Instead of taking any responsibility for being negligent, John Lekay is trying to pretend he has nothing to do with what John Martin chooses to write, and he has the nerve to try and play the victim claim NAFPS published private information about him that put him at risk, when the information is information Lekay himself put in the public domain. Lekay even went to so
far as to feature this allegation as one of the reasons to silence the information provided by the NAFPS website .

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1265.0

Our First "Official" Complaint
« on: July 25, 2007, 09:41:38 pm »

Quoting the letter of complaint written to powweb by John Lekay

"He has also posted my street address, unlisted phone
number and private email address on his website. I have two small children,
ages 2 and 6; now I have to constantly look out for them playing in our back
yard after seeing a strange man parked outside my house and sitting in his car
for over an hour last week. I have repeatedly asked him to remove my personal
data from his site; but he still refuses to do so. He seems to think this is
some kind of a sick game.

I am also an artist and am in the public eye and what he has done here is an
egregious invasion of my privacy and by doing so is endangering my wife and
small children and my property. "

No one associated with NAFPS has ever threatened anyone with anything resembling violence, and Lekay's claims that NAFPS "executes people without a fair trial" ( above ) and that he was threatened with being " torn apart by Pit Bulls and Dobermans", is just more of him trying to play the victim. The statement about Lekay being torn up by " dogs" can be found in reply here;

Re: Our First "Official" Complaint
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2007, 01:35:19 pm »
Quoting Johnnie
"Think I will post his whining over on Indianz along with links to his website and see what he looks like when those terriers, bullbogs and pit bulls get done with him."

In other words, the posters over at Indianz are being called dogs, and Lekay whiny. Lekay is taking a statement that is clearly only an analogy of the not so gentle discussions that happen over at Indianz.com, and he is distorting this into being a threat and playing the victim. Once again.

These are only a few examples of the misinformation Lekay continues spew, and the sheer volume of this garbage makes it impossible to clarify every piece. Instead I can just point a few examples of what looks to be a general pattern.

I am not sure everything Lekay has said in his first comment here, is incorrect or just distorted , and I will do Lekay the favor of extracting the only statements he has made, that in my opinion, may have some merit to them, which are ;

1. I have no personal knowledge of Mala Pope, so I can't confirm what is said about him, but the many people who have heard there is a problem cannot be dismissed without a thorough investigation. If the stories are true, people do need to be informed, so they can keep themselves safe.

2. I don't know where Al Carroll found the statement he claims was made by Lekay, that Indians still live in tipis so I can't confirm if this was made .

3. Lekay doesn't "smear everyone " who disagrees with him as being RCMP agents or tools of Bush or Cheney . He only does this to some people . Everyone else who disagrees with him gets smeared by Lekay accusing them of being hateful, racist, malicious etc etc etc .

4. Al Carroll has not explained his sources as to where he found the information Lekay has funded the movie about Dupree, so I can't confirm if this is accurate or not . Even if it isn't accurate , I'm not sure being wrongly accused of funding a movie is 'defamatory' .

Lekay's inability to accept the fact his advertising of dubious characters has exposed innocent people to psychological or even physical danger, his apparent determination to stay ignorant , no matter how much information is provided to help him be aware of his errors, and his continuing efforts to defame those who provide accurate information seems very irresponsible.
by Conspiracy garbage man speaks
Sunday Aug 19th, 2007 11:35 AM

Rotten Garbage mixed with Food
by The Gag Reflex
Sunday Aug 19th, 2007 9:23 AM
The long list of non offensive and even informative articles included in the Heyoka publication doesn't justify the one sided promotion of people distorting ndn beliefs and culture .

"A small piece of rotten meat can make you sick. Mixing it in with other good food only disguises the problem, and may trick someone into swallowing it, who would have been disgusted if they saw it just by itself '
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What small piece of meat? You mean Red Elk? Everyone has the right to "swallow" big foot, lizard people, Santa clause or what ever you like. Some people believe Al Carroll is Mescalero apache a well. That is their prerogative based on no evidence other than his word. You cant stop people having these unorthodox beliefs. If you look at Red Elks interview he never discussed any of these matters. He discussed "his inner heyoka spiritual beliefs". I bet you never even read it. What he talked about else where after this interview is another matter.

You are beginning to sound like you need to see a doctor for you cerebral hernia. You are stretching your big foot argument self pretty thin and beginning to sound like a big foot conspiracy theorist. Read what you wrote in a day or two. Do you realize how narrow minded you look?

Besides, he is in his 70s. Show a little respect for your Indian elders. Allow people to make up their own minds with out ramming your thought police opinions down their throats.

by Film libel 1 2 and 3
Sunday Aug 19th, 2007 12:35 PM
Where does Lekay's allegations come from?
by Jus my opinion
Sunday Aug 19th, 2007 10:56 AM
Lekay needs to take some responsibility for the misinformation he has been spreading .

--------------------------------------
Al Carroll needs to seriously take some responsibility for his actions and smearing innocent elders like Robin. An Indian grandmother.

Also for example attacking old 80 year old woman and using the deaths of family members against her. Attacking respected sun dancers and friends of Arvol Looking Horse like Jimmy La La Valle. Disseminating pure libel on numerous list servers.

Al Carroll is not entirely a libelist. He occasionally mixes a pinch of truth with most of his fabrications. Even when caught red handed with his libel and accusing LeKay of making films to smear Looking Horse, he still is unable to face his own libel or apologize for spreading these lies on at least 6 forums on the internet. He has not corrected this or apologized to the critically acclaimed and award wining filmmaker Louie Lawless either.

July 18, 2007, 06:43:45 am »
LIE 1) Al Carroll: The latest news is that Lekay is apparently making a film about Dupree, a full length feature devoting to smearing Looking Horse. And Lekay is backing the film entirely with his own money. He sent out a series of press releases only last month promoting it.

LIE 2) So it seems that Lekay was lying the entire time he was here. He is not disinterested or nonpartisan as he repeatedly claimed, even though everyone saw through that right away. He is the one who is out to protect his investment in a film.

Monday Aug 6th, 2007 9:45 PM
LIE 3) Lekay is spending huge sums of his own money to produce a film promoting the replacement of Arvol Looking Horse with Suzanne Dupree AKA "Looking Back Woman", an ex hairdresser who has been off the reservation for nearly twenty year yet claims to be the "true" possessor of the Lakota sacred pipe.

BIG LIE
by Louie Lawless
Sunday Aug 12th, 2007 3:12 PM

John LeKay is in no way involved with any film that I am doing or going to do, and he is not financing any film with me or for me.

Thanks Louie Lawless


by xnafps
Sunday Aug 19th, 2007 5:18 PM
quote: Lekay ignored the abundant on line information about that John Martin is not credible, and instead Lekay published a whole article featuring John Martin's opinion on NAFPS and Al Carroll.

i saw this and saved it before that site was taken down. it was not an article at all. it was a thread from nafps where john martin admitted he was steve w. this was deleted by ed ind to make it appear steve w was lekay. this is the very last email that is not on nafps. notice martin says he is steve w. why are you decieving the public and saying it was an article when it was not. this is why you folks have lost all credibility, no one believes a thing on your site anymore. i used to but after seeing what has been going on, i want nothing to do with nafps.

Barnaby:

What the hell is a Scotsman doing stoking Al's ego? (LOL). Go blow your bagpipes up someone else's skirt. This is between little Al and I. (LOL).


From :
Sent : Tuesday, July 24, 2007 8:50 AM
To : John Martin
Subject : reply


John,

Al Carroll completed our graduate program and currently resides in his home
town of San Antonio. He is not employed at ASU.

Best wishes,

Peter Iverson

Your own personal contact does not even refer to you as "Dr. Carroll". That says alot in itself. Mr. Iverson has been an invaluable source of info, why do you keep deleting my post? I am not John Lekay, how can treat an old school chum with such disrespect. ASU........Class of 2002.

And what's with the Scotsman attacking me? Too afraid to confront me yourself you Apache fraud.

LOL!!!!

P.S. It's good to have friends in small places..........like ASU.




by You are currently a liar
Sunday Aug 19th, 2007 5:39 PM
You are currently a liar.
by FRAUD AND MISREPRESENTATION ARE CRIMES
Sunday Aug 19th, 2007 5:45 PM
Dear LeKay shill,


You need to learn to read for comprehension.

"CLAIMS: Red Elk claims to be an inter-tribal medicine man, a member of Heyoka society, member of Red Web society whose mission is to bring hidden sacred knowledge to public
Red Elk claims to be Black Feet and Shoshone Cherokee Nation’s twisted hair society "

When Red Elk starts claim

The best thing you can say about LeKay is that he was grossly irresponsible in presenting Red Elk as an Native American elder. It's pretty suspicious that LeKay, A WHITE MAN, only chooses to present frauds and nut cases on his site as if they represented native religion.

FRAUD AND MISREPRESENTATION ARE CRIMES

LeKay chose to put Red Elk on his site, presented him as native, which he is NOT, and gave him a soft ball interview and didn't research Red Elk at all. A twelve year old could have discovered that he was a fraud.




by lets count
Sunday Aug 19th, 2007 5:58 PM
RED ELK - FRAUD NEW AGE WACKO UNENROLLED unknown to any legitimate tribe
MALA SPOTTED EAGLE - PERVERT
SUSAN DUPREE - HUCKSTER, FRAUD, UNENROLLED PAWN for new agers Crow Dog shill
SEQUOYA TRUEBLOOD - FRAUD UNENROLLED unknown to any legitimate tribe
SCARLETT KINNEY - HUCKSTER CON ARTIST FRAUD UNENROLLED unknown to any legitimate tribe
DAN ASHER - FRAUD WHITE FOOL PRETENDING TO BE MEDICINE MAN
Pete V Catches - unknown to Lakota UNENROLLED
William Under Baggage - unknown to Lakota UNENROLLED
David "Sitting Owl" Littlejohn - FRAUD unknown to any legitimate tribe UNENROLLED
Jim MedicineTree - FRAUD unknown to any legitimate tribe UNENROLLED
GRANDMOTHER ROBIN - NUT CASE, LIAR FRAUD unknown to any legitimate tribe UNENROLLED

And now for the apples:
JAY LA VALLE - WHITE SUPREMACIST RACIST
JOHN MARTIN - MISOGYNIST, ANTI SEMITE, RACIST WHITE SUPREMACIST


Let's see, that makes 100% of the so-called interviews were of frauds and 0% of the interviewed contained any accurate information about native religions.

LeKay should be sued for fraud and misrepresentation

The only stuff on LeKay's site that's legit is stolen from legit sources online.

LeKay uses the standard wannabee trick of copying and pasting articles from other magazines in order to hide the frauds he wants to promote.

LeKay has never interviewed a legitimate native spiritual elder in his life.
It's statistically impossible to get it wrong 100% of the time. LeKay must have intended to promote the fakes.


How many times do you have to be told this before it sinks in????
by Nothin but the facts
Sunday Aug 19th, 2007 7:07 PM
Rotten Garbage mixed with Food
by Conspiracy garbage man speaks
Sunday Aug 19th, 2007 11:35 AM
Quote
"Everyone has the right to "swallow" big foot, lizard people, Santa clause or what ever you like. Some people believe Al Carroll is Mescalero apache a well. That is their prerogative based on no evidence other than his word. You cant stop people having these unorthodox beliefs."

Ah... yes ...people have freedom to believe whatever they like, but only if it agrees with what twinkies believe.

People who don't believe what twinkies believe are a "hate group " and if they express it, and they get their website shut down . Talk about talking out of both sides of your mouth .

Please make a mental note NAFPS has never tried to shut down a twinkie website because they found what was being communicated objectionable. ( Though I suppose they might consider trying this in the future. False advertising is not protected by the First Amendment. )

And no matter how "free to believe anything they like " people are, there is still the REALITY ( a dirty word for twinkies I know ) and whatever Red Elk believes, and whatever people want to believe about Red Elk , his beliefs are nothing to do with REAL American Indian beliefs or traditions . To claim it is, is fraud . Plain and simple .

OH ... And BTW, Red Elk is not "my Elder" and no I don't have to respect someone that silly, as an elder . Sorry . I do feel like I am having something rotten forced down my throat, when you suggest that .
------------------
Where does Carroll's allegations come from
by Film libel 1 2 and 3
Sunday Aug 19th, 2007 12:35 PM

"Where does Carrolls allegations come from "

"Al Carroll needs to seriously take some responsibility for his actions and smearing innocent elders like Robin. An Indian grandmother."

How did Al Carroll smear Robin ? I haven't seen that . What I saw was Robin smearing Al Carroll . I see Robin's disagreement with NAFPS was discussed here . I don't see anything that looks like an attack . Just a disagreement .

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1232.0;all

BTW what tribe and band is " Grandmother Robin" enrolled in . Someone claiming to be her husband who was posting in NAFPS did say she is enrolled. Just curious.

"Also for example attacking old 80 year old woman and using the deaths of family members against her."

I presume you are referring to Scarlet who was in a fire and lost some family members and is older and who runs a Shamanic school. Lekay has a link to her comments whining about how she was wronged by NAFPS on his web page .

As I understand it, the objections raised in NAFPS were about what Scarlet falsely claimed to be teaching in her Shamanic school. She claims her Shaman lessons , are based on "Native American culture" and what she learned from a "Mohawk shaman woman" .

The Mohawks reportedly said they don't know the woman who taught her Scarlet, and furthermore what Scarlet teaches has nothing to do with Mohawk culture . Sorry but this is REALITY . NAFPS objected to the false advertising involved, and using the Mohawk cultures good reputation to prop up a dubious business . This wasn't an empty accusation , rumor or gossip . The "proof" this was and is going on, can be found on Scarlets own web page .

http://web.archive.org/web/20070327185624/http://www.thestandingbear.com/index.html

Quoting Scarlet's advertisement
"As there was nobody Scarlet knew of in her own culture who could guide her regarding the meaning of her initiation experience and the visionary states that followed it, she realized that she would need to turn to Native American culture for guidance. A series of dreams and visions led her to a Mohawk shaman woman with whom she studied women's shamanic ways for three years."

"Over the years, she has gradually integrated the teachings she received from the Bear Spirit Clan?during her shamanic initiation with what she learned from her Mohawk teacher"

Scarlet was also advertising and charging $250 for Sweat lodge ceremonies led by a very peculiar character claiming to be Cherokee who she met on line.

http://web.archive.org/web/20060716170816/http://www.thestandingbear.com/events.htm

Charging for Sweat Lodge ceremonies is seen as a horrible desecration by all the people who traditionally used this . The Cherokee don't use the Sweat Lodge . This is FACT . Why would you imagine people have a right to misrepresent who they are and claim what they know is based in American Indian traditions, when it is not ? Why would you think people have a right to desecrate sacred ceremonies , especially when they aren't even from their own people? Why do yo seem to think that anyone who objects to this deserves to be defamed, attacked and accused of being hateful ? Telling the truth and objecting to people desecrating things that are sacred is not unfairly "attacking people".

Being clueless is OK except when you start trying to silence people who know what they are talking about, and you attack and defame people who are protecting their culture . Then you just look really nasty and belligerent .

OK what are you going to make up next ? I guess when you just invent stuff, the supply of defamatory allegations is only limited by your own time and imagination .

If it isn't true, the allegation that Lekay funded Dupree's film seems very small potatoes to what Lekay dishes out . Maybe Al just doesn't have enough of an imagination.
by mountains of lies
Sunday Aug 19th, 2007 9:28 PM
"LeKay chose to put Red Elk on his site, presented him as native, which he is NOT, and gave him a soft ball interview and didn't research Red Elk at all. A twelve year old could have discovered that he was a fraud"

A 3 year old knows what his mothers maiden name is. Unlike Al Carroll who has repeatedly been asked this simple question for 6 years and still cannot answer it. Selling books like "Indian are us" (subtitled, sure pull the other one its got bells on) and claiming to be a representative of the Mescalero apache is a fraud and misrepresentation. He is doing a great disservice to the noble apache people. Everyone who bought that book has a right to ask for their money back like James Freys "a million little pieces"

Al Carroll's books should be more appropriately entitled "a million little lies" and the sequel "a million big lies" the third part of the trilogy "a million mountains of lies"

by Indian decorum
Sunday Aug 19th, 2007 10:00 PM

New Age Fraud Forum Glory

There once was a new age fraud forum
Who lost all its American Indian decorum
Because the man that ran it to Ad nauseam
And the BIA celebrated and played on their accordion

He called everyone a new age plastic shaman
Whether you were a legitimate medicine man or a Bahamian
A prophet a Greek or a laymen
A linguist a Solomon or without a hymen

Where ever he went he took his attaché
Which didn't help him look like an apache
Neither did his regalia and head dress by Donatella Versace
Or his internet adverts by Mr Charles Saatchi

Then one day he met a new age Rastafarian
Who called herself a non political blue color proletarian
And took him to her voodoo veterinarian
Which turned him into diabolical blue cheesy Bulgarian

So he decided to swim to Sweden
But ended up in the east of Eden
In the red-light district with a Siamese vegen
With a tattoo on her rear of George the dragon and St Steven

Now this medicine police man got his fancy knickers in a twist
And as a result he grew enormous great big cyst
So had no option than to sit on his cheek and listen to Franz Liszt
Then played tennis with himself all day until he sprained his wrist

So one night he burned some incense
Then everything became a cosmic coincidence
Even his veggie burger caused him great flatulence
Until he began to question his own magnificence

Then one morning he spotted a enlightened crocodile
Who said he was just a confused mercantile
But spoke like a diplomatic anglophile
And saw in this man a new age homophile

Now then he lost all subjectivity
Because his forum created black negativity
His sperm count even lost its motility
Even his holidays lost their festivity

The moral of this story
If you meet a new age wanabe that looks hoary
Don't tell her she looks like gory
Because you will end up loosing all your newage fraud glory


by Poetry lover
Monday Aug 20th, 2007 9:36 AM
In reply to xnafps comment , Sunday Aug 19th

John Lekay's web page titled "John Martin on NAFPS" contained the thread taken from NAFPS along with a one paragraph introduction of John Martin written by Lekay, which said he was a full blood Lakota who was confronting Al Carroll on his hate speech and libel ( coming from John Martin this is a joke )

Along with this republished thread from NAFPS, Lekay had inserted some misleading comments. Some of these comments are quoted and refuted in reply 63, page 3, of the thread on Heyoka
in the "research needed" section of NAFPS.

What you say is correct, in so far as Lekay also included John Martins last post, which one of the NAFPS moderators deleted. The post, which you kindly republished, was lewd and contained untrue defamatory innuendo and proved the author steve_w was John Martin, a well known cyberspace troll .

As Lekay now seems very anxious to distance himself from his cooperation with John Martin, I fail to see how a NAFPS moderator who knew John Martin's reputation, and who deleted evidence of John Martin being one of Lekay's supporters, can fairly be accused of trying to make Lekay look bad . IMO Lekay's cooperation with John Martin makes him look much sillier than posting under an alias ever would . And Lekay was silly enough to prove this relationship by republishing the thread on his own website . Thanks for republishing the post with the lewd comments and harassment that Lekay saw fit to republish . Does it matter if it is called an "article" or "a web page featuring John Martin on NAFPS with Lekay's inserted comments" ?

Aren't you splitting hairs, and once again trying to divert attention from the obvious, by creating an irrelevant side issue ?

This web page article is just one more example of how Lekay has neglected to research the people he supports, and gets support from. It is just one more thing showing the only people Lekay makes an effort to discredit are people who actively oppose exploiters and fakes. Lekay's loyalties are obvious .

On a more positive note , I am really impressed by the poem just above and how it shows someone is finding creative and potentially positive things to do with their imagination . The poem could be expanded into a novel don't you think ? It would be fun to try and stitch that together with a believable story line . Some of the imagery is quite vivid .
by Steve w
Monday Aug 20th, 2007 12:39 PM
This has nothing to do with distancing from John Martin. Since there was nothing to be distance from in the first place. This was an illusion created by Al Carroll.

Exposing a blatant lie that Al Carroll was deliberately misleading his audience into believing one person is another by deleting and omitting posts is a tactic he has been known to use on other occasions. This is hard core evidence substantiating this fact. There was never any post informing his readers that Al Carolls assumption and mistakes that this was Lekay were complely off. He stated clearly this is lekay seven times to be precise.

1) "Steve" (John Lekay) sent me this message by IM two days ago. I asked him to post it in this thread, he changed the subject and went into another harangue exactly like Lekay has spouted before.

2) Like I said before, it's amusing to keep giving him the rope to hang himself. Exactly same way of writing as Lekay, often word for word. More of yet another changing story. Now he's "half white" deliberately avoiding mention of what, exactly. Seems like he doesn't know the first thing about Cherokees, which European ethnic groups they generally mixed with, where they are most likely to be, etc. Like how he's insulting himself. Keep trying John. The more time you waste failing to disrupt us in here is less time you have for promoting frauds.

3) Mr. Lekay, Nice of you to admit to being who you actually are. You see, when you go into the *exact* same sorts of harangues you have in the past, often word for word, you reveal yourself. (That's why I'll leave these up. But we will delete any more personal attacks on anyone, and any more sidetracks, absolutely everything that is on any topic other than you discussing who you are.)

4) Let's see how foolish you make yourself look next, Mr. Lekay.
5) Let's see how foolish you make yourself look next, Mr. Lekay. Judging from his behavior, his medication seems to be wearing off. Or the strain of seeing his failure to do anything to NAFPS except amuse us or make us pity him further is getting to him. How else to explain his magically changing from a mixedblood Cherokee retired plumber in Florida to a teacher working with me in Texas? Maybe those crystal skulls he makes do it for him?]

6) [Replying to Steve's Lekay's now-deleted post] Of course Al taught at ASU, you idiot. He did his doctoral disseration there, and studying for a doctorate includes learning how to teach: graduate students have students themselves. Al is not telling "obvious lies" but you are obviously ignorant of the most basic facts about academia.

7} Mr. Lekay is as poor a researcher as ever.
The last comment steve w made admitting he was not John LeKay was on July 24, 2007, 06:38:23 am » This impression that stave w was allowed to stay online without a correction until August 07, 2007, 09:06:03 am. The correction was then made on a different post altogether. Still leaving the same impression to day on this thread that steve w is John LeKay.




MALA SPOTTED EAGLE - PERVERT

These were allegations of abuse of woman , rape which were submitted by an email to nafpas which "appears" to be a disgruntled employee, who was fired. Circulated by nafps and others. How ever, at this point this has not been established either way.

SUSAN DUPREE - HUCKSTER, FRAUD, UNENROLLED PAWN for new agers Crow Dog shill
Apparently she is enrolled at the Cheyenne River agency. This is very easy to verify with a phone call. I think its best at this time not to address this private Lakota issue since many people have decided it is best this is handled by the Lakota people themselves.

SEQUOYA TRUEBLOOD - FRAUD UNENROLLED unknown to any legitimate tribe
This man recently just crossed over to the spirit world. Maybe its too soon to be discussing him in this disrespectful manor for the sake of his mourning family or to make a point online.

DAN ASHER - FRAUD WHITE FOOL PRETENDING TO BE MEDICINE MAN
Dan Asher is an internationally known Jewish artist from NY. Has has never made a claim of ever being a medicine man. This is patently false. He visit shamans in Mongolia on a photographic assignment. What has Mongolia to do with North America?





by ya left some stuff out
Monday Aug 20th, 2007 4:48 PM
Quoting someone who sounds like Lekay
"This has nothing to do with distancing from John Martin. Since there was nothing to be distance from in the first place. This was an illusion created by Al Carroll.

"Exposing a blatant lie that Al Carroll was deliberately misleading his audience into believing one person is another"
--------------------------------------------------------------
Mr Lekay
You make it sound like that web page was only put up to show you were wrongly accused of being the poster steve_w .

It is still available on line because someone reposted it ;

http://ghostchild.org/index.php?s=1f62855c279295786e5b0129ecef0a94&showtopic=542&st=0&#entry1809

I see only 2 sentences written by Lekay , mentioning that Lekay is not steve_w ;

"Mr McEwan, first of all I am not Steve W."
"Al Carroll was claiming Steve W was John LeKay."

The other comments inserted by Lekay, begin in reply #10 . John Martin was questioning if Al Carroll really taught at ASU. Lekay comments are joining in John Martins conversation and taking John Martin's side .

I see 20 sentences written or quoted by Lekay, dedicated to wrongly suggesting Al Carroll lied about teaching at ASU.

I won't quote all of this , but just quote the part where Lekay explains what he saw as "the focus " of his comments .

( Lekay is directing these comments to Barnaby )
Quote
"you are deliberately just trying to change the subject and take the focus off Mr Carroll and his claims of teaching at ASU. This only makes it more obvious that he was not being entirely forth coming with the truth. "A half-truth is a whole lie Yiddish proverb."

The large majority of what was written by Lekay together with John Martin's last post, was to try and suggest Al had lied about himself. These accusations that Al never taught at ASU are completely refuted by information that can be found on the ASU website . The links to this are provided in the aforementioned reply 63.

Nowhere does Lekay say "the focus" of this web page was to show he was falsely accused of being steve_w, or that he was falsely accused of being associated with John Martin .
by here it is.
Monday Aug 20th, 2007 5:14 PM
You obviously did not read the intro. Dont see anything about ASU. Here it is.

This interaction is with a man named John Martin. A full blooded Lakota who went on the forum under the pseudonym Steve W to question Al Carroll about his hate speech, libeling others and his claims of being a Mescalero apache. Al Carroll was claming Steve W was John LeKay. This is part of what transpired. Much of John Martin/Steve Ws posts were deleted but we fortunately caught the last post, Reply #12 Today July 24th 2007 at 12:50:23 PM in its entirety before this happened. For anyone who is wondering who Barnaby McEwan is, he is the European administer of NAFPS residing in Totnes, Devon England.
by frederica
Monday Aug 20th, 2007 5:45 PM
Thanks for the link. Just saw another error.

"Johnny, The stereotype is always used to deal with anyone they precieve as a threat. Especially the men more than the women. Never have completely figured this out, if it is their own insecurities or just control. Apparemtly Lekay finds Frejia film a threat to his own. If he didn't there would be no reason for sock-puppets or trolls. frederica "

"Apparemtly Lekay finds Frejia film a threat to his own"

What film is this Frederica? When are you going to correct this?




by more info
Monday Aug 20th, 2007 11:21 PM
Barnaby McEwan quote: [Replying to Steve's Lekay's now-deleted post] Of course Al taught at ASU, you idiot. He did his doctoral disseration there, and studying for a doctorate includes learning how to teach: graduate students have students themselves. Al is not telling "obvious lies" but you are obviously ignorant of the most basic facts about academia.

http://www.asu.edu/clas/history/grad/graduate.html

Quote
The Department has a well-developed program to prepare students for college-level teaching, including a sequence of two seminars that train students in how to prepare syllabi, write and grade exams, prepare lectures, lead discussions, utilize information technology, and manage classroom dynamics.

The moment you stop being amusing you will be banned, and then you'll have to go back to whining about Damien Hirst. So dance for us, quickly now, faster, faster...

{JL note. Mr McEwan, first of all I am not Steve W. Please read the following very carefully.

Quote. Al carroll: It's not unusual for white students to immediately insist that any mention of racism at all somehow must mean I hate whites. The good news is that, at 18 or 19, very few of them have their views set in stone yet. A lot of them are from very sheltered backgrounds. Some tell me they've never met even met someone who wasn't white before, much less had their views challenged. Best I can tell, most of them can be reached. The ones that can't may be beyond hope. At ASU several of them demanded I be fired and that what I was teaching should be barred from being discussed, things like US invasions of other countries. They were outnumbered by the students who were happy to finally hear the subjects they'd never heard about in school.

This gives the distinct impression he was on the faculty as a paid employee since he mentions

A. His students.

B. Teaching his students.

C. Also demands of being fired, which means in the United States-termination of employment. All in the same paragraph.

He did not use the word expelled, or say that they demanded he be disqualified from his doctorial teachers training program.

He created this ambiguity and impression of being an employed teacher on the faculty at ASU. Any reasonable person would infer that this meant he was saying he is a ASU collage teacher.
The confusion here is that he is giving the impression of being an employed teacher on the faculty, not a student teacher studying for his doctorial dissertation. How ever if he did teach in some capacity at ASU, this should be very easy to clear up.

As far as Mr. Hirst is concerned, this is completely off topic and appears as if you are deliberately just trying to change the subject and take the focus off Mr Carroll and his claims of teaching at ASU. This only makes it more obvious that he was not being entirely forth coming with the truth. "A half-truth is a whole lie” Yiddish proverb.

Mr. McEwan. Maybe you should think twice before you huff and puff and prematurely ejaculate your venom at the wrong person and defend Mr. Carroll next time he is caught prevaricating. End of quote.

by Re:You missed the intro
Tuesday Aug 21st, 2007 4:15 AM
Re:You missed the intro

Quote
"You obviously did not read the intro. Dont see anything about ASU. Here it is."

You are choosing to ignore the information inserted by Lekay after reply 10, quoted above.

Blatantly ignoring everything that doesn't fit your own agenda seems to be a pattern here, doesn't it ?

by Riga Mortis
Tuesday Aug 21st, 2007 10:06 AM
Blatantly ignoring everything that doesn't fit your own agenda seems to be a pattern here, doesn't it ?

No it isn't at all. On the contrary. There was no agenda. This was all in your mind from day one. Like this supposed film to smear Looking Horse and the rest.

It is obvious Al Carroll was a temporary "student teacher" at ASU. There is a subtle distinction with being a student teacher and being a member of the faculty full time. Year round. This was the point. Yes its splitting hairs but its an important distinction.

The other point was your claims of saying one person was someone else. Not correcting this on that page. Not addressing this for two weeks. July 24th thru August 7th. This is creating a faulty perception and misleading the public by deleting an admission. This is the pattern. This looks like an agenda.

Your fear of making admissions when you are even caught is how you loose your credibility. Being inflexible only shows rigamortis has already set in. There is nothing wrong with making mistakes. We all do.

Not being able to admit a mistake even when its staring you in the face is more than a mistake, its a serious character flaw. Not questioning a person who has shown ample evidence of doing this is only a sign of groupthink. If you were wise, you would see this yourself. Defending your lost case will not help you. Check mate means the game is over. Doesn't mean you keep moving peaces on the board in any erratic pattern.

No matter how LeKay tries to rationaize it, the person behind this whole thing is John W. Martin.

Who is John W. Martin?


He's a delusional angry man with NPD - Narcissistic Personality Disorder

The serial bully displays behaviour congruent with many of the diagnostic criteria for Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Characterised by a pervasive pattern of grandiosity and self-importance, need for admiration, and lack of empathy, people with narcissistic personality disorder overestimate their abilities and inflate their accomplishments, often appearing boastful and pretentious, whilst correspondingly underestimating and devaluing the achievements and accomplishments of others.

Often the narcissist will fraudulently claim to have qualifications or experience or affiliations or associations which they don't have or aren't entitled to. Belief in superiority, inflating their self-esteem to match that of senior or important people with whom they associate or identify, insisting on having the "top" professionals or being affiliated with the "best" institutions, but criticising the same people who disappoint them are also common features of narcissistic personality disorder.

Narcissists react angrily to criticism and when rejected, the narcissist will often denounce the profession which has rejected them (usually for lack of competence or misdeed) but simultaneously and paradoxically represent themselves as belonging to the profession they are vilifying.

Fragile self-esteem, a need for constant attention and admiration, fishing for compliments (often with great charm), an expectation of superior entitlement, expecting others to defer to them, and a lack of sensitivity especially when others do not react in the expected manner, are also hallmarks of the disorder. Greed, expecting to receive before and above the needs of others, overworking those around them, and forming romantic (sic) or sexual relationships for the purpose of advancing their purpose or career, abusing special privileges and squandering extra resources also feature.

People with narcissistic personality disorder also have difficulty recognizing the needs and feelings of others, and are dismissive, contemptuous and impatient when others share or discuss their concerns or problems. They are also oblivious to the hurtfulness of their behaviour or remarks, show an emotional coldness and a lack of reciprocal interest, exhibit envy (especially when others are accorded recognition), have an arrogant, disdainful and patronizing attitude, and are quick to blame and criticise others when their needs and expectations are not met.

The DSM-IV Diagnostic Criteria for Narcissistic Personality Disorder are:

A. A pervasive pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, lack of empathy, as indicated by at least five of:

1. a grandiose sense of self-importance
2. is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
3. believes that he or she is "special" and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
4. requires excessive admiration
5. has a sense of entitlement, ie unreasonable expectations of especially
favourable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
6. is interpersonally exploitative, ie takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
7. lacks empathy and is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
8. is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
9. shows arrogant, haughty behaviours or attitudes




If you see this individual acting out on the internet – notify his ISP immediately and file whatever complaints that you think will be effective. It’s important that everyone do what they can to recognize, expose and stop cyber bullying so that we can all enjoy a productive and healthy internet where true dialogue and discussion is possible.

by I Janis
Wednesday Aug 22nd, 2007 9:38 PM

Eight Main Symptoms of Group Think


Illusion of Invulnerability: Members ignore obvious danger, take extreme risk, and are overly optimistic.

Collective Rationalization: Members discredit and explain away warning contrary to group thinking.

Illusion of Morality: Members believe their decisions are morally correct, ignoring the ethical consequences of their decisions.

Excessive Stereotyping:The group constructs negative sterotypes of rivals outside the group.

Pressure for Conformity: Members pressure any in the group who express arguments against the group's stereotypes, illusions, or commitments, viewing such opposition as disloyalty.

Self-Censorship: Members withhold their dissenting views and counter-arguments.

Illusion of Unanimity: Members perceive falsely that everyone agrees with the group's decision; silence is seen as consent.

Mindguards: Some members appoint themselves to the role of protecting the group from adverse information that might threaten group complacency.


Avoiding Group Think


The group should be made aware of the causes and consequences of group think.

The leader should be neutral when assigning a decision-making task to a group, initially witholding all preferences and expectations. This practice will be especially effective if the leaders consistently encourages an atmosphere of open inquiry.

The leader should give high priority to airing objections and doubts, and be accepting of criticism.

Groups should always consider unpopular alternatives, assigning the role of devil's advocate to several strong members of the group.

Sometimes it is useful to divide the group into two separate deliberative bodies as feasibilities are evaluated.

Spend a sizable amount of time surveying all warning signals from rival group and organizations.

After reaching a prelimiary consensus on a decision, all residual doubts should be expressed and the matter reconsidered.

Outside experts should be included in vital decision making.

Tentative decisions should be discussed with trusted colleagues not in the decision-making group.

The organization should routinely follow the administrative practice of establishing several independent decision-making groups to work on the same critical issue or policy.

by More psych
Wednesday Aug 22nd, 2007 9:56 PM
Defensiveness and Invalidation

All invalidation is a form of psychological attack. When we are attacked, our survival instinct tells us to defend ourselves either through withdrawal or counter-attack. Repteated withdrawal, though, tends to decrease our self-confidence and lead to a sense of powerlessness and depression. On the other hand, going on the offensive often escalates the conflict or puts us in the position of trying to change another person.

One sign of both high self-esteem and high EQ is the absence of either of these defensive responses. A healthier response, one which is both informative and assertive, without being aggressive, is to simply express your feelings clearly and concisely. For example, you might respond, "I feel invalidated," "I feel mocked," or "I feel judged."

How the other person responds to your emotional honesty will depend upon, and be indicative of:

(a) how much they respect you .

(b) how much they care about you and your feelings

(c) how insecure and defensive they are

(d) how much they are trying to change or control you



by STOP THE ABUSE
Wednesday Aug 22nd, 2007 10:39 PM
Should the voices expressing alarming concerns about NAFPS activities be silenced?

"Native Cultural Activists Voices Silenced Again"

Are you an Indian Alton Carroll?

Why aren't you enrolled?

What "Native Activists" are you talking about here if not the NAFPS group itself?

Moma Porcupine, Barnaby McEwan, Trish Jacobs and Annika Banfield? Are they now Indians also, well known for their "Indian-ness" (just ask anyone at NAFPS).

Are they the voice of THE Native America today?

NAFPS itself is a prime example of SOCIOPATHIC BEHAVIOUR:


Profile of the Sociopath

Glibness and Superficial Charm

Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.

Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."

Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.

Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.

Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.

Incapacity for Love

Need for Stimulation
Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.

Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.

Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.

Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.

Irresponsibility/Unreliability
Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.

Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts.

Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.

Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.

Other Related Qualities:
Contemptuous of those who seek to understand them
Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them
Authoritarian
Secretive
Paranoid
Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations where their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired
Conventional appearance
Goal of enslavement of their victim(s)
Exercises despotic control over every aspect of the victim's life
Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs their victim's affirmation (respect, gratitude and love)
Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim
Incapable of real human attachment to another
Unable to feel remorse or guilt
Extreme narcissism and grandiose
May state readily that their goal is to rule the world

Sound familiar?
LEARN ABOUT THE DISEASE
STOP THE ABUSE

by John LeKay
Wednesday Aug 22nd, 2007 11:39 PM

I really don't think its best to be calling each other NPDs, or sociopaths at this point. It is not going to help this debate. I believe this can be resolved in a reasonable way. With out the labels, or the name calling. Please lets stick to the logical evidence. Inflaming this with emotionalisms will not help either side.








by LEKAY IS A HYPOCRITE
Thursday Aug 23rd, 2007 12:18 AM
NPD is a real clinical diagnosis and if you weren't so dim you wouldn't have associated yourself with a mentally ill man.

Don't be such a hypocrite - you tried to psycho-analyze everyone who didn't go along with your UFO-Crystal Skull-Big Foot made up pretend woo woo feel good elders.

You can sure dish it out, but you just can't take it.
Look at the EVIDENCE, turd blossom, Martin is mentally disturbed and you associated yourself with him - BE A MAN
ADMIT YOU ARE WRONG - that's when this will end

More and more will come out about the frauds you promoted and you will look like the fool you are

Learn from the Catholic church scandals

YOU CAN'T COVER UP THE TRUTH FOREVER
EVENTUALLY ALL VILLIANS ARE EXPOSED
by It's called Journalistic Integrity
Thursday Aug 23rd, 2007 1:00 AM
Anyone in their right mind can see that this guy Red Elk is a fruit loop. A little investigation will undoubtedly show that the rest of them are too. John LeKay showed no journalistic integrity whatsoever in including him in the puff piece in his silly online journal.

LeKay clearly has not been truthful, accurate or objective. Every day we hear about a new questionable individual who he now decides not to include in his pubication. All this backpeddling destroys LeKay's credibility.

It should be obvious to anyone with a three digit I.Q. that LeKay only uses an interview-like format to promote these questionable individuals, but he fails to ask any questions about their claims because he knows how ridiculous he would look if he behaved with journalistic integrity towards them.

Heyoka magazine appears to be nothing more than the upwardly mobile online equivalant of the Art Bell show. And it cannot be an accident that so many of LeKays 'elders' have been on the Art Bell show proting their books and CDs and workshops. Sensationalistic antics, giving the readers only the small part of the story he wants them to know about, slanted articles and interviews designed to lend more credibility to those with products and services to hawk, as opposed to presenting the reader with all the known information. Heyoka mag. is the very definition of yellow journalism.

If LeKay had made accountability to his readers a priority, he wouldn't be in the embarrasing position he's in now. No one's going to take any charges of libel seriously when we're talking about an individual that has made so many glaring mistakes in guise of honest and fair journalism -- an honesty that exists in name only.

Lekay made the mistake of wanting to believe the kooks. It was inevitable that someone would call a kook a kook. While truthful remarks may hurt his feelings, embarrass him, or subject him to ridicule, it's a huge stetch to try to convince any knowledgeable person that he has a valid libel claim. Unless he can show that the remarks made about these obviious frauds are false, he does not have a valid claim. Giving his refusal to provide any proof that these jokers are legitimate medicine men, it looks like LeKay trampled on the civil liberties of some innocent people for no good reason.

A counter claim charging Lekay with violation of civil liberties would be much, much stronger if this thing ever goes to a court of law.


by A supporter of Elders
Thursday Aug 23rd, 2007 6:53 AM
Quote
"Best not to point the finger
by John LeKay
Wednesday Aug 22nd, 2007 11:39 PM
I really don't think its best to be calling each other NPDs, or sociopaths at this point. It is not going to help this debate. I believe this can be resolved in a reasonable way. With out the labels, or the name calling. Please lets stick to the logical evidence. Inflaming this with emotionalisms will not help either side"



Was this really written by John Lekay ? If it was, it seems strangely hypocritical advice .

I agree the psychological diagnosis over the internet is just another way of name calling .

Maybe this means Lekay will remove and apologize for, all the defamatory articles he published diagnosing NAFPS members as having a virtual dirty laundry list, of psychological disorders ?

Maybe this means that Lekay will apologize for using the support of John Martin who repeatedly engaged in totally below the belt attacks, on Lekay's behalf. I notice in the long list of everything Lekay can possibly imagine might be libel , Lekay makes no complaint about Al Carroll's repeatedly mentioning that John Lekay was involved with John Martin .

Maybe this means Lekay will provide some evidence that the tribal wisdom or authority claimed by the people he promotes, is recognized as such by the tribe claimed, and is more than a fantasy .

Maybe this will mean Lekay and his supporters will apologize for the repeated unfairly defamatory personal attacks against people who can be proven to be supporting recognized Elders .

Like this comment here ;


Quote
"LEARN ABOUT THE DISEASE
by STOP THE ABUSE
Wednesday Aug 22nd, 2007 10:39 PM
Should the voices expressing alarming concerns about NAFPS activities be silenced?


Are you an Indian Alton Carroll?

Why aren't you enrolled?

What "Native Activists" are you talking about here if not the NAFPS group itself?

Moma Porcupine, Barnaby McEwan, Trish Jacobs and Annika Banfield? Are they now Indians also, well known for their "Indian-ness" (just ask anyone at NAFPS).

Are they the voice of THE Native America today?

NAFPS itself is a prime example of SOCIOPATHIC BEHAVIOUR: "




Annika is making an educational non profit movie which supports and gives voice to the concerns of tribally recognized Elders .

Al Carroll wrote one chapter for an educational nonprofit book which supports the concerns of tribally recognized Elders, and explains basic cultural norms so people can better protect themselves from frauds . This can be read here ;

http://www.americanindianprisoners.com/Pages/Al%20Carroll.htm

Trisha Jacobs provided a website with a long list of educational articles which give voice to the concerns of tribally recognized Elders .

http://web.archive.org/web/20051215184610/users.pandora.be/gohiyuhi/articles/index.htm

John Lekay has yet to mention even one tribally recognized Elder he is supporting, and Lekay has yet to provide any evidence the cultural information he is promoting is anything any tribe would recognize as real.

I have found the repeated attempts to discredit and silence people voicing the concerns of thousands of Elders and traditional people, truly despicable. I am especially offended by the constant suggestions that people may be libel for explaining and defending what is the equivalent of their “religious” convictions and loyalties .

I would like Lekay to apologize for these constant threats .

If Lekay is now ready to take some responsibility for his own abusive behavior, and stop ignoring everything that doesn't fit with what he wants to believe, a reasonable dialog might be possible, and my respect for him would greatly improve. But as things stand he is in no position to give anyone else advice.
by Riga Mortis
Thursday Aug 23rd, 2007 1:30 PM
Read the piece about invalidation and defensiveness one more time. Your entire post is just one more example of invalidation and defensiveness.

"All invalidation is a form of psychological attack. When we are attacked, our survival instinct tells us to defend ourselves either through withdrawal or counter-attack"

Al Carroll and some members of nafps felt threatened by the truth about their behavior bad abuse of being exposed and went over the top. His attacks were illogical, emotional and purely driven out of fear.

"Repeated withdrawal, though, tends to decrease our self-confidence and lead to a sense of powerlessness and depression. On the other hand, going on the offensive often escalates the conflict or puts us in the position of trying to change another person"

This basically mean that all you are doing is trying to increase

A) Your self confidence

B) Or are trying to escalate and inflame this.

c) Its out of your own conscious awareness that you are even doing this.

D) You are reacting and trying to change (in vain) another's position.

Your best bet is to give it up, its futile and don't waste of your time or mine. All your tactics are transparent.

"One sign of both high self-esteem and high EQ is the absence of either of these defensive responses. A healthier response, one which is both informative and assertive, without being aggressive, is to simply express your feelings clearly and concisely'

Read that paragraph above.

"Maybe this means Lekay will remove and apologize for, all the defamatory articles he published diagnosing NAFPS members as having a virtual dirty laundry list, of psychological disorders ?

The articles were removed last week. If you don't want people accusing you of having a long list of psychological disorders, then don't write and behave as if you do have a long list of psychological disorders. Use some discretion, discernment, restraint, sophistication and self discipline. Spewing rage, anger hatred, inner turmoil, frustration at other people online is going to give the impression to a lot of people, not just Phd clinicians that you have serious issues to work through in private. Not on the internet, using other people as inanimate objects and your punching bag. When you feel this urge, take a jog, or punch a pillow. Take up a mediation practice, yoga or Tai Chi. Its very simple, If you are going to indulge in venomous verbal abuse, psychological invalidation, blame shifting, projection, libel, twisting, omitting and deleting others peoples posts and words, repeatedly to create a false impression.. This is how your groups leader and "some" of its members will be perceived. As mentally ill, delusional or on drugs.

"Maybe this means that Lekay will apologize for using the support of John Martin who repeatedly engaged in totally below the belt attacks, on Lekay's behalf. I notice in the long list of everything Lekay can possibly imagine might be libel , Lekay makes no complaint about Al Carroll's repeatedly mentioning that John Lekay was involved with John Martin."

Support or criticism cannot be stopped. This is another illusion created by Al Carroll to serve his own agenda and personal rivalry issues with David Yeagley. John Martin and Al Carroll have been in conflict over other issues long before LeKay even entered the picture. John LeKay can not control John Martin as much as he can control Al Carroll or Brent Michael David's. Or anyone who creates websites labeling someone with Narcissistic personally disorder. Or satirical and vicious webs sites about David Yeagley. Such as http://www.davidyeagley.org

This point was mentioned earlier in this debate. As far as "below the belt attacks" why don't you take a serious look at the bellow the belt attacks Al Carroll has inflicted on many people. Why is Jimmy La Valle even mentioned on that site, other than being interviewed by LeKay. That caused 3 other nafps members to leave his forum after seeing why and what he did. When is Al Carroll going to apologize to Robin, a grandmother and another long term member? When is he going to or remove all the libel about LeKay making a film to smear Looking Horse? Where are the apologies for doing that . The name calling, labels such as being a racist, white supremacist, and more than one forum like indianz etc.

"Annika is making an educational non profit movie which supports and gives voice to the concerns of tribally recognized Elders'

Yes recognized elders who are also under attack and have been accused of the very same thing that is being preached in this film and by nafps. http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1296.0

I don't think this is in Annikas best interest or her film for you or nafps to keep turning this into a Broadway extravaganza and ndn soap oprah. All you are doing is self sabotaging, biting your own nose and spiting your face and bringing this to the attention of more people and by doing so will lose more credibility. Especially being that Annika is also along time nafps member. So is Al Carroll who is also in this film with questionable authenticity issues himself. This is much more important than Red Elk, big foot or the loch ness monster . Every time you even mention his name it just shows how strong a case you have. His interview is not on the site anymore. Neither are any of the others you have previously mentioned. So stop wasting your time or mine and using that as an argument.



by Cathy
Thursday Aug 23rd, 2007 1:58 PM
July 18, 2007, 06:43:45 am »
LIE 1) Al Carroll: The latest news is that Lekay is apparently making a film about Dupree, a full length feature devoting to smearing Looking Horse. And Lekay is backing the film entirely with his own money. He sent out a series of press releases only last month promoting it.

LIE 2) So it seems that Lekay was lying the entire time he was here. He is not disinterested or nonpartisan as he repeatedly claimed, even though everyone saw through that right away. He is the one who is out to protect his investment in a film.

Monday Aug 6th, 2007 9:45 PM
LIE 3) Lekay is spending huge sums of his own money to produce a film promoting the replacement of Arvol Looking Horse with Suzanne Dupree AKA "Looking Back Woman", an ex hairdresser who has been off the reservation for nearly twenty year yet claims to be the "true" possessor of the Lakota sacred pipe.

BIG LIE
by Louie Lawless
Sunday Aug 12th, 2007 3:12 PM

John LeKay is in no way involved with any film that I am doing or going to do, and he is not financing any film with me or for me.

Thanks Louie Lawless


I'm a died-in-the wool liberal and my opinion is that when someone is using the Internet or any media for political speech, they should be afforded very high protection. I think that NAFPS should be highly protected because they offer a different perspective from what the mainstream consumer society would like us to see.

I am reluctant to accept LeKay's arguments because he has not demonstrated journalistic integrity and he has made so many glaring mistakes in judgment.
LeKay appears to me to be a conservative in liberal's clothing. His argumentative style reminds me of the neo-cons. Like Fox News, he only wants his readers to have small pieces of information so they can only share his interpretations and conclusions. He has deliberately muddied the controversy with some obvious red herrings. He falsely, and I believe knowingly, equates charging for alleged sacred ceremony and charging for one's skeptical or analytical thoughts on those who engage in such exploitation. He's clearly using a SLAPP suite to engage in malicious prosecution of NAFPS. And it all seems to stem from his inability to admit that he was duped by some very smooth operators.

I found this web page, which may be unrelated to this issue, but I think it describes what is REALLY going on here extremely well.


I'm reprinting it with permission, but the site is temporarily down

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A First Nations Person's Reflections on Cyber Bullying and the First Amendment
By guest commentator Auntie Laura

Throughout left wing popular culture, First Nations people have been given the dubious honor of being attributed with the creation of the First Amendment. Ironically, we are the people who have been systematically denied the rights provided by this amendment. Despite popular leftist myths, it has been my experience that attacks on our rights to free speech and religious practice do not always come from the right wing. Some of the most insidious attacks on our religious freedoms are now coming from those who claim to identify with the extreme political left. History has taught us that First Nations people need to be very careful about trusting anyone who claims to be acting in our best interests. This is a good lesson to remember when dealing with the well-intentioned. Where my instincts have always been to be suspicious of motives where lots of money is involved, the Neo pagan left is currently promoting a philosophy that dictates to me that I need to abandon my suspicions and trust anyone who declares their respect and admiration for my rich spiritual heritage. I n the past, when I expressed my doubts about the needs to relinquish my critical faculties online, I have was stalked, attacked and bullied online, and not by those with right wing politics, but by those claiming leftist or progressive politics. It is my hope that my personal experience with cyber bullies can help someone else to sort out the issues.

Cyber bullying is a hot topic on the internet these days. But it is often difficult to determine exactly who is bullying whom. I have always found Deep Throat's advice to be useful in circumstances were the facts are fuzzy –"follow the money" Scads of bogus libel claims and emotionally heated flame wars have caused me to examine and re-examine my preconceptions about online communications.

Here's a few of my insights:

Practical Tips for Confronting Issues of Cyber Bullying

There is no clear legal definition of cyber-bullying, but most people think that they know it when they see it. Most people are wrong. There are a lot of gray areas where issues of Cyber Bullying and Free Speech appear to conflict with each other. Here are some tips to help sort out the real bullies from the tactics that power uses to silence dissent. This website exists to get people to think more deeply about the issue of cyber bullying and to find ways where we can balance the rights of free speech with the legitimate rights to privacy.

Refuse to react emotionally to the bully. Do not reply in like kind to ad hominem attacks a cyber bully will tend to use. He is unable to construct a cogent argument, so he needs to keep the conversation on a personal and emotional level. He will mention his dead relatives, all the suffering in the world which now becomes his opponents responsibility, he will construct every manner of red herring and play the victim card in order to distract attention away from his lack of critical thinking skills and outrageous behavior.

Don't let the bully bait you into a flame war. When you see e-mails that contain what you believe to be unfair allegations or gossip written about you, log off and wait 24 hours to respond when you are in a calm state of mind. Carefully document everything that bully posts and report them to his ISP and, if appropriate, the police in a calm, rational and polite manner. Remember, if the bully tries the same thing against you, and he will, he will be unable to appear calm and reasonable to the authorities for very long. Eventually his rage will surface and expose his true character. Someone in authority will eventually see this and give him the help he needs.


Too many people believe that the only answer to cyber bullying is to limit the rights of the victim. Many sites will tell you simply to block the bully, ban him from your forum or to simply ignore him. This is not your only alternative. Should you choose to respond to the bully which is your first amendment right, respond in the most rational and objective way that you can. Do not sink to the level of the bully. Most of them may try to use large vocabulary words to appear that they are educated, but most of them are unable to focus on college level courses. Because they are impulsive, they become impatient at tasks that require careful thought and discipline. They rarely finish college courses and make grandiose claims that they are authorizes that they only have a very superficial grasp of. This will eventually become obvious to everyone.

Keep in mind that bullies lack of self control. This will always give you an advantage should you choose to respond to them and/or prosecute them. Attack their arguments, not the person. (The person is usually a big mess and it's really too easy a target) Show the bully how to engage in fair, reasoned debate. This shows other your character and emphasizes the emotional instability of the cyber bully. You can take that power away from the harasser by refusing to play their game. In this way, then you have become empowered instead. You are now in charge of the situation.


Always keep e-mails from the harasser and your replies as evidence. If you don't feel emotionally strong enough to deal with a cyber-bully today, you may be of some assistance to the people he targets in the future.
If at any time you feel you are in physical danger, or if the bully has made physical threats against you, call your local police precinct. You must be persistent and willing to follow through with the entire prosecution process. This may take a lot of your time and energy, but think about the innocent people on the internet that you may be sparing the pain and frustration of dealing with a cyber bully.

Keep in mind that false charges of libel are the first line of offense for the cyber bully. This is especially true of individuals who are mentally unbalanced. Anyone who challenges the fantasy world of mentally ill persons will probably be harassed by bogus charges of libel. They may even go so far as to demand that a rational, educated skeptic prove that UFO, fairies, conspiracy theories and other assorted fantastic creation, freaks or monsters don't exist. There are a lot of famous examples of false libel suits used to suppress the speech of critics. Uri Geller spent years trying to sue James Randi and debunkers and skeptics for years after they revealed his spoon bending scam as a magic trick. Prof Dr Deborah E Lipstadt, renowned Jewish scholar, spent months embroiled in http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9405E2DD1231F93BA25757C0A9669C8B63&n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics%2fPeople%2fL%2fLipstadt%2c%20Deborah%20E%2e
libel suit against Holocaust denier David Irving.

Cyber bullies often resort to threats of SLAPP suits when they encounter a statement or opinion that triggers their rage reflex. If you are being threatened with a libel suit and you are confident you are dealing with a fraud, an internet kook or some other type of cyber bully, they are very likely trying to attempt suppress your first amendment rights with a SLAPP (Strategic Lawsuit Against Public Participation). There are Anti-SLAPP laws that are designed to help people sued for legitimate, protected speech made about public issues (i.e., fraud) . If you are sued because you wrote about an issue of public interest or concern, you may have been SLAPPed. The First Amendment Project. Look into it and see if there is one in your state. Frauds, kooks and bullies know that laywers cost money and that the little voices criticizing them are relatively powerless and don't have money to hire attorneys. They count on using the law to intimidate the powerless into silence. Always make sure that the bully, kook or fraud is serious in pursing his law suit. To some of them, this is the cost of doing questionable business. Many of them are too focused on making money to pursue a long, drawn out lawsuit and what they really want is for you to stop expressing opinions or providing information that could limit an economic advantage or hinder a business relationship with easy marks.


Cyber bullies also rely on bogus cease and desist letters that appear to be written by an attorney. This is usually just a scare tactic and can be easily dealt with by asking for the alleged attorneys license number and reporting him to the bar association in the state where he lives.

Many times the intent of the cyber bully is to destroy the anonymity of a lone whistle blower. This country was formed by anonymous pamphleteers and anonymous speech is essential to a healthy democracy. Whistle blowers and people reporting corporate corruption and products which endanger the public safety (like sweat lodges) sometimes depend on anonymity. The right wing has waged a campaign to make internet big brother and spy on anyone who wants to express criticism about anyone selling a product. This is an extension of the concept of corporate personhood, where the rights of vendors take precedent over the rights of individuals with little power or money and nothing to sell. Keep this in mind when you make statements about anonymous speech on the internet. Uninformed comments can contribute to the destruction of internet democracy. Go to the (http://www.eff.org) Electronic Freedom Frontier and educate yourself about the importance of anonymity before you make any ignorant, sweeping comments in public.
Beware of organizations that claim to help you with cyber bullies. They are not all reputable. Some organizations that claim to end internet stalking are politically and economically motivated and will not help anyone that they disagree with politically to end harassment. Most web sites that purport to be a cyber bullying resource only give part of the true picture. Their politics are based in right wing pro-business ideology and they usually display some degree of contempt for and/or ignorance of civil liberties. They tend to be heavily pro-law enforcement, pro-status quo and pro-business. You should think long and hard about believing everything they say or accepting their interpretation of the law too readily. Very few of them are truly motivated towards making a freer more democratic internet. Taking their claims with a grain of salt and a little skepticism, especially if they solicit donations, is always a good idea.
Remember that anything you do will help. If you feel you can't prosecute, you can at least educate those around you about the prevalence of cyber bullies on the internet.
When gramma was teaching me how to sew she always cautioned me to
Measure twice and cut once. This is an important lesson about perception that I have found applies to controversial issues. My rule of thumb is think twice speak once. If more people on the internet would do this, the cyber world would be a more rational place.</p>


Trustworthy Online Resources

http://www.eff.org
Electronic Freedom Frontier
They are very busy, but they will help you find an attorney to combat cyber bullies if you are patient.

http://www.thefirstamendment.org/antislappresourcecenter.html
The First Amendment Project Anti-SLAPP resources/ F.A.Q.

http://www.ncac.org/
National Coalition Against Censorship

Find the ACLU
http://www.aclu.org
American Civil Liberties Union branch office in your area.

ACLU https://secure.aclu.org/site/Advocacy?JServSessionIdr005=26lq9rdpn3.app23a&pagename=homepage&id=643&page=UserAction
How to Oppose Hate Crimes and Protect Free Speech


http://www.sitemason.com/files/kfEJzO/SLAPP.pdf
SLAPP Law Protecting Free Speech

Libel Suit Dismissed
Alleged "Psychic"
Uri Geller loses libel suit against Prometheus Books
August, 1994

The New York Times http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9405E2DD1231F93BA25757C0A9669C8B63&n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics%2fPeople%2fI%2fIrving%2c%20David">Holocaust Denier Verdict
David Irving's libel claim against the historian Deborah E. Lipstadt: Justice Charles Gray's decision was not only an affirmation of the importance of fidelity to historical truth, but it was also a lucid recognition of the central motivation of Holocaust deniers like Mr. Irving: anti-Semitism and racism. "


http://www.ire.org/training/argentina/pdfs/feldsteintipsheet.pdf
Cyber Censors and Global Muckrakers

-------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm sending this to my friends. It certainly gives you something to think about. The issue becomes clearer when the NAFPS shamans camp speaks and muddier and more emotional when LeKay and his shills speak - I think that says a lot. I know Mr. Chomsky would agree with me.

Peace out

Marie from Sault Ste. Marie






by So Bored and Ignored that I Snored
Thursday Aug 23rd, 2007 3:39 PM
You're not winning anyone over with the sophmoric humor, the misogyny or the homophobia.
Did you forget that the suckers you target tend to be on the liberal side?

This is just annoying, like an Adam Sandler movie.
by Riga Mortis
Thursday Aug 23rd, 2007 4:19 PM

"I'm sending this to my friends. It certainly gives you something to think about. The issue becomes clearer when the NAFPS shamans camp speaks and muddier and more emotional when LeKay and his shills speak - I think that says a lot. I know Mr. Chomsky would agree with me. "

Please send it to Noam Chomksy. I will give you his personal email address. If you believe that Noam Chomsky or any other intellectual would agree with this this kind of attack and emotional outburst below, you are sadly mistaken?

PLEASE SEE EXAMPLES OF NAFPS ARGUMENTS

!) "Lekay and his ilk are despicable racist pieces of slime"

2) "I wish someone would attack the bullshit arguments"

3) "Dawg, what part of prove your claims do you not understand"?????

4) "At last Mr. LeKay admits that he's completely full of shit".

5) "That Lekay is one phony crackpot. Really like that pretentious photo of him posing in a bowler trying to look all serious when he really just comes off looking constipated".

6) "I have been watch this guy Lekay and his little magizine. He has promoted a child molester as a medicine man" (This last allegation was completely proven libel. The person even admitted this was a mistake)

7) That Lekay is one phony crackpot.

8) Lekay needs help, professional help."

9) Lekay is an ignorant, paranoid, and dangerous man who stated publicly he believed American Indians still live in tipis. (Now where did he say this? Another example 100 percent Al Carrollesque libel)

Maria, you sound as if you have completely turned the truth on its head. You sound as if are totally grasping at straws and a little desperate. Al Carroll is the person who has repeatedly created a campaign of spurious analogies, non sequiturs and ad hominem attacks. He has filed libelous and specious complaints all over the internet. If you were such an avid Chomsky reader, you would a carefully analyze and dissect his arguments before you would jump in and defend him. You obviously have not done this.

This gem of wisdom may help you the future

"In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves".
Buddha

This is your problem because you are more concerned with your self being right or wining an argument than with the truth.

The article is excellent by the way and is very informative in how to deal with internet bullies like Al Carroll and some of the members of NAFPS. However, I would say most nafps members are not like this, but are obviously susceptible to groupthink psychology like yourself who join in the gang bang with out careful consideration or investigation.

This I have to say this is the one of the most comical arguments so far. LeKay has gone from being a super revolutionary purer than pure left wing liberal like Ward Churchill to now being Rupert Murdock and an ultra wing rightwing conservative. Don't you think this is a bit of impossibility being Rupert Murdock, Ward Churchill all in the same package. Why don't you throw in Carl Rove as well?

06/05/2007 :  09:24:17 AM Al Carroll: Heyoka magazine is a would be leftist political online journal. Lekay seems to be a Ward Churchill type, not in claiming to be NDN, but in having an image of himself as this super-revolutionary purer-than-pure leftist"

This again is another illusion and is also not true. Check out Alan Watts and what he has to say about labels.

by Old School Muckraker
Thursday Aug 23rd, 2007 5:33 PM
RE: LEARN ABOUT THE DISEASE

Let's all learn together, shall we?

Q: Should the voices expressing alarming concerns about NAFPS activities be silenced?

A: Well now, this is a loaded question. You phrase it in a way that you think will fool your opponent into having to agree with you. It's pretty close to the straw man argument woo woos are so found of construction. A SLAPP suit is not a voice expressing concern – it is an act of power and intimidation intended to silence dissent. Again, dictionaries are important things to have. They tell you the meanings of words.

Q: Are you an Indian Alton Carroll? Why aren't you enrolled?

A: This has been identified many times as a red herring. There is no blood quantum requirement for skepticism.


Q: What "Native Activists" are you talking about here if not the NAFPS group itself?

A: A common logical fallacy is to assert the right to name your opponent and then to do so unfairly. NAFPS is perfectly within their rights to call themselves an activist group, even if that irks you. You don't seem to grasp the principle of fairness that is so necessary for civil debate – you need to let your opponent make his own arguments and define his own position, then you need to repeat it back fairly. Rush Limbaugh is really good at ignoring this rule of civil debate. He insists that it's his right to re-define Feminists as Femi-Nazis etc. You basically do the same thing by coming up with unreasonable perjoratives for your opponent and arguing about what your opponent calls himself, rather than arguing the issues. It has been stated many times that there are 300 member of NAFPS and only 3 are "European" this is only 1% of the group, but you ignore the statistic and insist on creating red herrings around it. Additionally, you have failed to prove that any of the LeKay interviewees are enrolled or provide telephone numbers of legitimate tribal authorities who could be contacted attest to these questionable individuals entitlement to conduct ceremonies or charge for alleged native wisdom.

Q: Moma Porcupine, Barnaby McEwan, Trish Jacobs and Annika Banfield? Are they now Indians also, well known for their "Indian-ness" (just ask anyone at NAFPS). ?

A: This is your perception and not a fact supported by evidence. You keep returning to the same red herring for lack of ability to argue the issues. European brains and Native brains alike are capable of


Q: Are they the voice of THE Native America today?
A: It isn't logical to assert that an individual needs to speak for many separate sovereign nations in order to voice his skepticism . This is another red herring, but I do appreciate your attempts at coming up with a new red herring. The other one is getting really old.
It also represents and extremely Western way of thinking. People indoctrinated by white male Christian Capitalist Patriarchy are conditioned to look to one sole authority on matters of authenticity. Your need for a hierarch
If there were one voice of authority, it would be Arvol Looking Horse and you have contradicted yourself repeatedly by searching for another authority that will say the things you want to hear.

Q: NAFPS itself is a prime example of SOCIOPATHIC BEHAVIOUR: ?

A: This is a sweeping generalization about 300+ people that you have never met. Fallacy of outrageous overgeneralization.




Q: Glibness and Superficial Charm

A: You contradict your own ad hominem attacks here. You can't accuse your opponent of negativity and associate him with being a serial killer or a terrorist and them claim he's glib and charming. It's an occupational necessity for most con-men to be glib and charming. The LeKay interviewees are the ones who possess all the charm.

Q: Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.

A: What would be the purpose of "manipulating or conning" people to examine the claims of those trying to sell something more carefully? I can't think of an example where NAFPS has tried to manipulate or con anyone. Encouraging people to think doesn't put them under your control. Telling them they must accept your authority as a "shaman" definitely puts them under your control. I think you're confused here.


Q:Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."

A: I can't think of anything more grandiose than claiming that one is in contact with para normal forces or that one has the authority to contact spiritual beings. (or 27 foot thunderbirds or invisible alien big foots) Since most debates about cultural appropriation center around the concept of claims entitlement to practice native religions by the privileged and those in the mainstream of society, I think you've got things backwards again.

Q: Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.
A: While it may irk you that your fantasies have been challenged by skepticism, you have yet to prove that the claims your interviewees have made are true. Again, shifting the burden of proof to your opponent does not make him a liar.
In science, a theory is considered incorrect until it can be shown to be true. Extraordinary claims require extra ordinary proof. Your side has the burden of proof and you have failed to meet it. Calling your opponent a liar when he points this out is an ad hominem fallacy.
You have been told repeatedly that the person claiming authority to conduct ceremony has the burden of proof to show s/he is entitled to do so, yet you continue to try to shift the burden of proof to the skeptic. This is a logical fallacy.

Q: Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.

A: In order for someone to feel remorse, one would have to have done something for which it is reasonable to feel guilty like ….. oh I don't know …… selling native ceremonies for profit and making up stories about space aliens to sell to gullible rich white people?????

Q: Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.

A: Well, you've got me there. In contrast to the wide spectrum of emotions that the LeKay side expresses, I suppose everyone in NAFPS would seem quite stoic in contrast. But seriously, what ulterior motive do you think these 300+ people have? What promises did they make? I seem to recall several claims made

Q: Incapacity for Love

A: Again, I don't know how you'd measure that with 300+ people.

Q: Need for Stimulation
Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.

A: Do you mean like calling people liars and terrorists, getting their site shut down and threatening them with lawsuits. Stuff like that? It seems the person most skilled in the physical threat in this debate is John Martin. I can't recall one instance of a NAFPS member ever threatening to come to someone's home or place of business and physically assault them.
http://www.brentmichaeldavids.com/johnmartincalls.html

But there's some pretty damming evidence on Martin all over the web. Not to mention the misogyny, anti-Semitism, homophobia and racism he posts to public boards.

Q: Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.

A: Again, you have failed to show that NAFPS ever victimized anyone. They seem to have a lot of compassion for all the people who died in new age sweat lodges.

Q: Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.

A: Again, John Martin seems to have cornered the market on the lack of impulse control.

Let's take a look at his work:
Left on the Blue Butterfly group answering machine 2:50 pm 3/2/07

“Hey Brent you Mother fucker. You’re fuckin’ dead mother fucker. I know where you live you little shit. You think you’re fuckin’ so tough. Puttin shit on my fuckin’ family. You’re fuckin’ dead you mother fucker. I’ll be out there to kick your mother fuckin’ ass this weekend, you better watch your back you mother fucker. You’re fuckin’ dead you little shit. Fuck you.”

Left on the Blue Butterfly group answering machine 3:00 pm 3/2/07

“Hey Brent, you mother fuckin’ faggot, you mother fucker, you ass ss sucking mother fucker. You know what mother fucker? Th th th this is the beginning of your end of you mother fucker. You talk shit. You wanna talk some shit? Talk some shit to me you punk ass bitch. Come on mother fucker. You know what mother fucker? You better watch your back. You know what? I got people in, in fuckin’ Minnesota. They’ll rip your fuckin’ heart out you little bitch! Talk shit about my family why don’t you come talk to my face you mother fucker? You punk ass bitch. You punk ass mother fuckin’ bitch. Fuck you you mother fucker.”

Left on the Blue Butterfly group answering machine 3:50 pm 3/2/07

“Hey Brent, you got 48 hours to take that shit down you put down you you you ah those pictures you put of my family. I don’t give a fuck what the fuck you say about me, but you take that shit down in 48 hours or else I’m gonna come for you mother fucker. You hear me? You got 48 hours to take that shit off. Otherwise I’m coming for you mother fucker. I’m coming for you you fuckin’ bitch.”
And all this occurred in under an hour. Hmmmmmmm

Q: Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.

A: Do you have dossiers on the juvenile history of these 300+ people?


Q; Irresponsibility/Unreliability
Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.

A: How has NAFPS caused devastation. If the LeKay interviewees are really in contact with these powerful supernatural forces, they would be immune to a few people laughing at them or asking for proof of their claims.

Q: Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts.

A: You've failed to provide a police report, or a documented case of this on the part of any NAFPS member. I have seen several stories on the AP wire about fake medicine men who take advantage of females.
Here's a pretty good reason to have an organization like NAFPS –
"Native American Calling Thursday, January 30, 2002 - Spirituality Abuse: An Invisible Crime:

An excellent program on Spiritual Abuse focusing on Sexual Abuse. Unfortunately, abuse by spiritual leaders is not uncommon in Indian Country. Stories about abuse of power among self-proclaimed spiritual leaders are becoming more and more common. One of the worst abuses occurred when a man passing himself as a medicine man raped a woman who was nine months pregnant.

Guests include Arvol Looking Horse, Ray "Skip" Sandman from Duluth MN, a traditional healer for the Mille Lacs Band who grew up in the Fond Du Lac community, John Witherspoon of Charlevoix, MI, a founding member of Great Lakes Origins from the Bois Forte band of Ojibway, and Dr. Mimi Sa, a licensed clinical psychologist from the Grand Portage Rez in, MN, an advocate of culturally competent therapy."

Remember that time when JOHN MARTIN FOOLISHLY CONFUSED THE POP UP ADDS ON A FREE SITE WITH THE CONTENT OF THE SITE?

""Men's" erotic underwear? Penis enlargement? Where to buy anti-depressansts on-line. LOL.

The list goes on and on. I knew you were a perverted freak "Al" but, Penis Enlargement", just goes to show how "little" you think of yourself. Damn, Al, you Mexican/Irish/Apaches really do know how to party. Go to :http://www.newagefraud.org. " – John Martin on badeagle.com

People using free web sites have no control over what pop up ads will appear. Here is the documentation of a false (and profoundly stupid) allegation.


Q; Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.

A: Again, do you have information on the migration patterns of all 300+ members?

Q: Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.

A: NAFPS has had the same image since I became aware of it in 2002. Can you explain the ever increasingly fantastic stories of the people you interview? Before Art Bell, Red Elk only spoke "Indian" to the visible earth bound big foot. His fish tale just gets bigger and bigger.

RE: Other Related Qualities:
This is getting tiresome now, so I'll just provide counter examples:

Contemptuous of those who seek to understand them:
"Mr. Silverstein:
A jewish Indian? That's a new one. I am a full-blood Oglala Lakota. Both my mother and father were from Pine Ridge, S.D. That is all you need to know for now until I can confirm who you really are what are you intentions.
If you are just another curious white person, then that is all you need to know. If you are a legitimate journalist then I will be more than happy to answer any of your questions about my Lakota tribe, or current Indian issues or anything else you feel concerned about. You can call me right now and I will be more than happy to talk to you man to man.
Call me now or you lose credibility.XXXXXX, ask for John Martin. I will let my administrative asst. know that a "Hawk Silverstein" will be calling.
Look forward to hearing from you soon.
John Martin (Fully-enrolled Oglala, Lakota)."

John Martin to a routine request for information:
Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them:

Authoritarian: Hawk"

You want to question my Lakota ancestry, I tell you what. If you can get that fucking Mexican asshole Al Carroll to prove he is in fact Apache, then I will show you all the documents, papers, enrollment numbers from the BIA etc;

Are you Native? I don't like it when non-Natives question or attack my people, you had better tread lightly there "Hawk" before you get hurt.

I will track you down like the wild pig you really are.

FUCK YOU VERY MUCH!!!!!!!!!!!" – John Martin


Secretive:
"My enrollment is none of your fuckin' business you mother fuckin jew!"
John Martin to another request for information from a Christian man with a German surname.

Paranoid :

“Phidoux:
If you want no part of this, of what lies ahead, then simply stand back, this is of no concern to you, it is a battle that I started with these little pale-faced cowards, and I will see it through until there is no more resolve or trepidation left in those who seek to destroy Dr. Yeagley."

--John Martin on badeagle.com

Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations where their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired



Goal of enslavement of their victim(s):

" When I spoke to BM (Brent Michael Davids ) about those pics he put up of my kids, he sounded very submissive and extremely effiminate. BM speaks and actually sounds like Truman Capote. When I confronted Carroll about the issue, he told me to f*ck-off, then hung up on me.

I never threatened his parents, that's a flat out lie, I did, however, promise to whip his butt, he's basically a coward." – John Martin on badeagle.com
"

Exercises despotic control over every aspect of the victim's life:

""This AE person is that little taco-head "Fraud-Hunter", the lying mexican/irishman. It's all good though, when my U.S.C. TROJANS defeat Norte Dame today, we will drop a bomb on that little mexican creep, we will frag his ass, and then laugh as they run to their "blogspots" who nobody reads, because nobody cares, it is my mission to seek and destroy that little beaner, the Lakota way. If anyone is offended by my post, well, TOO -FING BAD, for you see, it is my destiny to seek and destroy the wicked, evil, posers who have dishonored all my relations." – John Martin on badeagle.com


Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs their victim's affirmation (respect, gratitude and love) :

"Fuck you, fuck boy and your fuckin' fat gay butt-buddies. Go off and have a fuckin; gay butt party with your fuckin' fat gay but buddies. You wil respect me, bitch. You will feel my power and I will make you my bitch, bitch" – John Martin in a transcript from a telephone call to another person who disagreed with him

Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim:

" We shut down that anti-Indian hate site. I was given some really powerful advice from a Lakota elder. He basically told me that what Carroll and his Euro-creeps were doing was totally wrong, spiritually. Carroll is treading down a path that can be very dangerous to himself and those around him. I am not the danger, I am just a humble Lakota man, Carroll is offending representatives that exists in another realm.

I don't think that Crazy Al will ever understand Native ceremony, the way we do, because HE IS NOT INDIAN. He shows no respect for our spiritual ways. Consequently, the spirit world took him out. He needs to seek advice and start the healing process, he hurt many innocent Indian men and women.

AL CARROLL NEEDS TO WRITE A FORMAL APOLOGY TO EVERYONE HE HAS SLANDERED, MOCKED, RIDICULED ETC; HE HAS LOST ALL CREDIBILITY WITHIN THE NATIVE COMMUNITY.

He had this coming, everyone knows it, if he wants to find an offshore account and return to his treacherous ways, we will be waiting for him."


Incapable of real human attachment to another :

" “Whew! Damn Michelle you really need to control those emotional outburst, it is very unlady like, or is it that time of the month again?
There is no use for big words on a skank like you, we are all in the same gutter here, you just too full of your own self-important stench to see through your own bs.
I was really expecting more from a woman with your alleged education. I don’t think that you’re even pissed at me, your stinky panties are in a bunch because your monkey-boys film didn’t even merit a single Oscar. Poor little urban indian, you have my sympathy.
Kiss,
TALLSOLDIER77 “ – John Martin to a woman he attempted to court online
on tryworks.org

Unable to feel remorse or guilt :
""This AE person is that little taco-head "Fraud-Hunter", the lying mexican/irishman. It's all good though, when my U.S.C. TROJANS defeat Norte Dame today, we will drop a bomb on that little mexican creep, we will frag his ass, and then laugh as they run to their "blogspots" who nobody reads, because nobody cares, it is my mission to seek and destroy that little beaner, the Lakota way. If anyone is offended by my post, well, TOO -FING BAD, for you see, it is my destiny to seek and destroy the wicked, evil, posers who have dishonored all my relations." – John Martin posted on badeagle.com


Extreme narcissism and grandiose :

"“Very profound observation Tsani. I didn't mean to "dis" you Dr. Yeagley, I was just elaborating on your comments about the macho-Indian image. I get called "Chief" of the "Big Injun" by co-workers, (males only) all the time. I don't take offense to it because I know it is said out of respect for the immense power and inherent enigmatic presence we Indians exude by just being who we are. If one day a person refers to me as an Indian in a negative tone, then we are going to have a problem.

If I were one of the students, I would wear the feather regardless, make the school administration physically remove the eagle feather, then sue their ass for damages.
Feedback?" – John Martin on badeagle.com


""hawk":

It's a rather simple tricked I learned from that fucking wetback Carroll. The same one he used to stalk me, then steal my personal info, like my home address, phone number , work number etc; I don't want you to get your feelings "hurt" when I shut down Carroll's punk-ass little website, again!...................LOL. Now was fucking funny. LOL.

Al Carroll is an Indian fraud, he attacks innocent Indian men and women. Do you feel threatened? Do you want to be put down, like a rabid dog?


LOL.

Look, "Hawk", you're another "johnnie-come-lately" .Carrroll is old news. We shut him down, we made him look like a fool. God that was so mother-fucking hilarious.
Gotta run.

Have a nice day!" – John Martin


May state readily that their goal is to rule the world:
"“Genghis Khan was a unique and master tactical leader in his time, however I think the great Roman Empire did more for "globilization" whatever that means than Khan, but Khan was a solid, true Warrior. He embodied the essence of what "Warriorship" was all about.

TS77”
--John Martin on badeagle.com


Q: Sound familiar?
A: Why yes it does. But you're describing John Martin.

LEARN ABOUT THE DISEASE
STOP THE ABUSE

Thank you for the suggestion, I think I did.

by Marie
Thursday Aug 23rd, 2007 6:06 PM
A lot of people have already contacted him and objected to him lending his image to Heyoka.

The fact that you failed to recognize Chomsky's ideas in my post says a lot about your comprehension abilities. Chomsky is frequently made an icon by people who can't understand his writing.

"The article is excellent by the way and is very informative in how to deal with internet bullies like Al Carroll and some of the members of NAFPS. However, I would say most nafps members are not like this, but are obviously susceptible to groupthink psychology like yourself who join in the gang bang with out careful consideration or investigation. "


I'm so glad you think so because that excellent article was written by a former NAFPS member who was dealing with a cyber bully exactly like John Martin, except female.
She was stalked and harassed by people who think the way you do for two years for merely expressing an opinion online. If you think Al Carroll is a bully then you don't understand what the word even means.

Since you are stereotyping a diverse group of people with a sweeping and unfair generalization - that says a lot about your character too. Who are you to go online and characterize hundreds of differnent people whom you've never even met? It sounds like you're engaging in the same behavior you accuse Al Carroll of I was in NAFPS for a while and I had to quit the group because too many people like you were constantly coming on and going off topic and trying to sidetrack every discussion with their own selfish agenda. I got tired of all the self-absorbed whining from people who couldn't win an argument and blamed their intellectual short comings on the people who could.

It's preposterous to claim that NAFPS engage in groupthink while ignoring the obvious cult like qualities of the people LeKay thinks are legit. Skeptics are rarely known for their conformity.
To me, the most dangerous thing about the new age is that everyone always has to think the same way - positively. They're just like the missionaries that came here with good intentions thinkng that forcing us to think their way would fix us.

You should spend less time being a LeKay's shill and more time reading the people you claim to know about. If you'd sharpen your critical thinking skills, maybe you'd win an argument and you wouldn't have so many problems getting along with ndns. One thing you need to know about us, we see through every falsehood you can never fool us or pretend to be something you're not. A lot of new agers are afraid to be around us because we demand that people be absolutely real with us. Most people that hate us do so because it terrifies them to be honest with themselves.

Set higher standards for yourself and you'll have more friends. Then you can go outside in this beautiful autumn weather and you won't have to sit in front of a computer all day figuring out how to make everyone hate who you hate.

Now there's some authentic ndn wisdom for ya!
by Riga Mortis
Thursday Aug 23rd, 2007 7:03 PM
Q: Are you an Indian Alton Carroll? Why aren't you enrolled?

A: This has been identified many times as a red herring. There is no blood quantum requirement for skepticism.

This is a legitimate question. Unless he is able to prove his apache ancestry, he should not make these claims nor should anyone else. Nor say they represent the Mescarleo apache tribe in films or in books. By doing so only opens up the floodgates for anyone to say they are Mescalero apache. Regardless of proof.

"If there were one voice of authority, it would be Arvol Looking Horse and you have contradicted yourself repeatedly by searching for another authority that will say the things you want to hear"

This is an extremely controversial statement to make at this point in time. That's probably best for the Lakota people themselves to say who is a "voice of authority" See this.
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1296.0

"Hey Brent, you got 48 hours to take that shit down you put down you you you ah those pictures you put of my family. I don’t give a fuck what the fuck you say about me, but you take that shit down in 48 hours or else I’m gonna come for you mother fucker. You hear me? You got 48 hours to take that shit off. Otherwise I’m coming for you mother fucker. I’m coming for you you fuckin’ bitch.”

This doesn't help nafps. This looks like an admission that photos of John Martins family were in fact posted online by Brent Michael David's. If this is this case then this is extremly abusive.

by Riga Mortis
Thursday Aug 23rd, 2007 8:07 PM
"She was stalked and harassed by people who think the way you do for two years for merely expressing an opinion online. If you think Al Carroll is a bully then you don't understand what the word even means."

Plese take a look at this. another long term nafps member.
A respected ndn elder and grandmother.
http://www.alcarrollnewagefraud.com/NEWAGEFRAUD.Robin.Interview.htm

Also this. An native American psychotherapist.
http://www.alcarrollnewagefraud.com/NEWAGEFRAUD.JimmyLaVallee.letter.htm

"Since you are stereotyping a diverse group of people with a sweeping and unfair generalization - that says a lot about your character too. Who are you to go online and characterize hundreds of differnent people"

Since I have been told from people inside nafps, 100s of people is a fallacy. Most of these people use many pseudonyms. There are only about 6 to a dozen frequent posters.

"It's preposterous to claim that NAFPS engage in groupthink while ignoring the obvious cult like qualities of the people LeKay thinks are legit. Skeptics are rarely known for their conformity."

No its not at all. In fact its exactly how it looks. You have only shown signs of conformity and no questioning of nafps. If you truly were a skeptic and a non conformist, you would ask Al Carroll to prove to you his apache ancestry. If his own Mescalero apache people question him, why shouldn't anyone else. Why would you just take his word for it? This shows signs of cult like adoration and conformity. For example, most cult leaders or do not tolerate any questioning of their authority. A true leader or a secure and a confident person, with nothing to hide or fear encourages others to ask questions. See this.

APACE WOMAN: Apaches (all bands) are matrilineal.  This means that we identify ourselves through our mother's bloodlines, clans and such.  Whenever I meet another Apache or Yavapai I introduce myself and announce my mother's name and grandmother's name.  My grandmother's name is one that most tribal members recognize to this day, though most know my mother too.  Of course I have a different last name than my mother and grandmother due to marriage, but still I announce my mother's and grandmother's names.

My question is this Al (if you read this) why wouldn't Harlyn Geronimo or Wendall Chino know your mother by her maiden name?  Or even her mother, your grandmother?  This should be common knowledge at Mescalero especially amongst the members still residing there.

I'll have to inquire with my Mescalero kin in regards to your claim of being a descendant of them.

And another thing, what gives you the right to do all that you have done in judging the Indianness of others over at Indianz.com?  You're not enrolled and certainly haven't announce how you descend from such a great people - The Mescalero Apache, except to say, "my mother".  Well, announce her name and that of your grandmother because that's what we're taught to do when introducing ourselves.  You're attempting to make a name for yourself on a national level and claim to speak for the "Apache" nation of which there is none because we're all independent bands, with independent governments, united by a common culture and language and you certainly don't speak for my nation, got it!

"You should spend less time being a LeKay's shill and more time reading the people you claim to know about. If you'd sharpen your critical thinking skills, maybe you'd win an argument and you wouldn't have so many problems getting along with ndns'

Apply that advice to yourself. This is not about "winning an argument". You still do not seem to understand the point of this debate. This is about libel. I am not a new ager or terrified to be honest with myself or anyone else. I do not having problems getting along with ndns in fact have many ndn friends who support me whole heartily. As far as I know Barnaby McEwan is not Indian. Until Al Carroll can prove it , he is not Mescalero apache either.

"One thing you need to know about us, we see through every falsehood you can never fool us or pretend to be something you're not. A lot of new agers are afraid to be around us because we demand that people be absolutely real with us. Most people that hate us do so because it terrifies them to be honest with themselves."

Then why are most of nafps critics ndns? No one is trying to fool anyone here. I for one am not terrified of nafps or hate you, just your methods. You actually have done some very good work by exposing many of these exploiters, hucksters and newagers. This is a serious problem that needs to be addressed. However bulling people, ridicule, mocking, libeling legitimate ndn elders and sun dancers is not the right way to do this. Until you realize this is wrong there is no point in having this discussion. Women should be respected in ndn culture. Not viciously attacked. They are life bearers, mothers and our sisters. There are many ways to criticize with out resorting to this kind of abuse.




by bugeyed wonder
Thursday Aug 23rd, 2007 9:02 PM

Rigor Mortis

Are you crazy ? What's with this ?

by A supporter of Elders
Thursday Aug 23rd, 2007 6:53 AM
"Maybe this means Lekay will remove and apologize for, all the defamatory articles he published diagnosing NAFPS members as having a virtual dirty laundry list, of psychological disorders ?"

by Riga Mortis
Thursday Aug 23rd, 2007 1:30 PM
Quote

"The articles were removed last week."

BUT WHAT'S THIS ??????

http://www.alcarrollnewagefraud.com/NEWAGEFRAUD.IsAlCarrollAFraud.htm

http://www.alcarrollnewagefraud.com/NEWAGEFRAUD.JLrespondsToJimmyLaValleLetter.htm

http://www.alcarrollnewagefraud.com/NEWAGEFRAUD.JimmyLaVallee.letter.htm


WooooooooBooooooyyyyy

And you are concerned about Al Carroll's credibility ?

Thats cute .
by Rigor Mortis
Thursday Aug 23rd, 2007 10:22 PM

Maria asked to see examples of abuse. Why are you so surprised?







by Rigor Mortis
Thursday Aug 23rd, 2007 10:34 PM



By the way. They were removed last week but activated this evening just for Maria. Look at the other links. All gone.

So dont bother bugging out.





by Cathy
Thursday Aug 23rd, 2007 10:41 PM

Do you think this group is a cult?


The cult is authoritarian in its power structure. The leader is regarded as the supreme authority. He or she may delegate certain power to a few subordinates for the purpose of seeing that members adhere to the leader's wishes and roles. There is no appeal outside of his or her system to greater systems of justice. For example, if a school teacher feels unjustly treated by a principal, appeals can be made. In a cult, the leader claims to have the only and final ruling on all matters.

The cult's leaders are self-appointed, messianic persons who claim to have a special mission in life. For example, the flying saucer cult leaders claim that people from outer space have commissioned them to lead people to special places to await a space ship.

The cult's leaders center the veneration of members upon themselves. Priests, rabbis, ministers, democratic leaders, and leaders of genuinely altruistic movements keep the veneration of adherents focused on God, abstract principles, and group purposes. Cult leaders, in contrast, keep the focus of love, devotion, and allegiance on themselves.

The cult tends to be totalitarian in its control of the behavior of its members. Cults are likely to dictate in great detail what members as what to believe, think, and say.

The cult tends to have a double set of ethics. Members are urged to be open and honest within the group, and confess all to the leaders. On the other hand, they are encouraged to deceive and manipulate outsiders or nonmembers. Established religions teach members to be honest and truthful to all, and to abide by one set of ethics.

The cult has basically only two purposes, recruiting new members and fund-raising. Established religions and altruistic movements may also recruit and raise funds. However, their sole purpose is not to grow larger; such groups have the goals to better the lives of their members and mankind in general. The cults may claim to make social contributions, but in actuality these remain mere claims, or gestures. Their focus is always dominated by recruiting new members and fund-raising.

The cult appears to be innovative and exclusive. The leader claims to be breaking with tradition, offering something novel, and instituting the only viable system for change that will solve life's problems or the world's ills. While claiming this, the cult then surreptitiously uses systems of psychological coercion on its members to inhibit their ability to examine the actual validity of the claims of the leader and the cult.
by Riga Mortis
Thursday Aug 23rd, 2007 11:20 PM

No, I would not call them a cult. More groupthink oriented. Just what happens if they feel threatened from the outside. How they group together. Almost become one mind. One voice. One body. One thought. Its a defensive mechanism that kicks in. The reptilian part of the brain. The same theory applies in soccer hooliganism.

The way it works is that one person posts, and the rest take little bites out of it like piranhas. Quite fascinating to watch. This happens in all of nature. Watch a school of fish swim in the same direction. Most people do not even know they become a part of a group and begin seeking acceptance, validation, approval, they say things to want to fit in. Or to impress the other members. look intelligent, wise, knowledgeable etc. In most instances non of these people would have the courage to make these comments on their own. They feel a false sense of security by being a part of this group. Also by using a pseudonym.

There is a sadistic element in this group. Taking someone down, apart, to pieces.


by cathy
Thursday Aug 23rd, 2007 11:25 PM

Why do you think someone would be involved in a group like this in the first place?
by Riga Mortis
Thursday Aug 23rd, 2007 11:36 PM

That's a good question. It depends on the person, some really believe they are making a positive contribution to society and helping to solve a problem. This exploitation is a serious problem, these new agers are getting out of hand. Just don't think this works. The tribes should take care of this and thier own problems.

Others maybe in it for more sinister motives. Like venting frustration, anger, negativity etc. Others just have a need to belong. To be apart of something. Have a need to fit in. Others may be simply bored and have no life.

by Dr. Alice Carroll
Friday Aug 24th, 2007 1:04 AM
You jerk, you screwhead Carroll, address issues that are urgent within Indian Country. Your "plastic shaman" witchhunt, whatever is a big waste of time. Address the issues that are at DANGEROUS levels, i.e; substance abuse, domestic violence, unemployment et.

Help your people, the "MESCALERO APACHE" LOL.

Look man.........................just focus on todays legitimate Native issues, grievences etc; If your aspirations are to be a "spokesman" for American Indians, then tackle those issue first.

Quit being a punk, and for once in your life, be a MAN!


Dr. Alice Carroll.
by Dr. Alice Carroll
Friday Aug 24th, 2007 2:43 AM
Al carroll is not Apache Indian. He has been given the task of proving that he is in fact an Apache Indian, but all Carroll does is sidestep the question. Every Indian that I have ever met in my life can rattle off their Indian ancestry in about 30 seconds. I have given Carroll an entire year to name his Apache blood-line, he defers the question or better yet he goes on the defensive and attacks another innocent Indian.

People are allowed to practice their Native Spirituality accordording to their own special and unique ways. Who the hell is this Mexican/Irish/apache? Indian to tell people how or what or when to conduct their unique ceremony?

If this is Carroll's agenda, then the "man" is gravely mistaken. Carroll is out there running amok like a rabid coyote, passing judgement on who he feels, "has the right stuff". Carroll, by definition of his sordid and questionable past has NO RIGHT to tell others how to pray or give thanks to their tribes religion.

Carroll must be and has already been silenced once for his chicanery and unlawful personal attacks against REAL Indians. This game that Carroll is playing makes a mockery of Native Spiriuality. I have sought counsel with my own Lakota elders, they say that this man Carroll needs to quit attacking Indians and go to an Apache ceremony. Perhaps to cleanse the evil that now resides in his BROKEN heart.
by spirits for sale
Friday Aug 24th, 2007 7:51 AM

we know this. we have eyes. we see what has been going on.
by people aren't stupid
Friday Aug 24th, 2007 9:15 AM
Interesting how it keeps getting brought up how wrong it was for Al Carroll to post pictures of John Martins family, in yet when ndns repeatedly POLITELY explain to an Englishman how violated they feel to see pictures and traditions discussed ( or just distorted ) publicly , that is an "attack".

If people in NAFPS were at all rude, it was in frustration at Lekay's seemingly absolute determination to remain ignorant and dominate .

Here is one more example of where Lekay has once again neglected to do his research, and instead is repeating a defamatory allegation from a source that has no credibility , as if it was a fact .

Quoting Lekay from his first comment;

"Al Carroll: "Lekay has also contacted many people by e-mail, trying to obtain their support, which failed miserably. The only support he found was from a notorious white supremacist posing as part Comanche, David Yeagley, and one of his leading supporters, a violent racist named John Martin who has issued a number of death threats." John LeKay: Libel Number 6. John Martin is a full blood Lakota and not a white supremacist, who had photos of his wife and two small children posted by Al Carroll on his website. As far as I know, David Yeagley is a Comanche and a musician who has been under attack by Al Carroll and Brent Michel Davids for years and is not a white supremacist either.”

Uhhh well maybe . But personally, I found the other side of this a lot more credible .

http://www.indianz.com/board/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=27446

Posted - 06/15/2007 : 4:57:09 PM BMD

"Al never posted pics of anyone. I did post LINKS to photos, however, on http://www.badeagle.org when I was sent information regarding Martin's phony claims of his so-called military service. Those photos were not posted by me but by John Martin himself.

In response to the links, Martin threaten me via my answering machine several times, but when he reached me in person he politely asked me to remove the LINKS and I graciously did so the same as I would for anyone who made a similar request."

And why does Lekay keep claiming to have no agenda ? In this context " having an agenda" , just means having personal motives , priorities , and goals .

Re:You missed the intro
by Re:You missed the intro
Tuesday Aug 21st, 2007 4:15 AM

"Blatantly ignoring everything that doesn't fit your own agenda seems to be a pattern here, doesn't it ?"

reply, you missed the into
by Riga Mortis
Tuesday Aug 21st, 2007 10:06 AM

"No it isn't at all. On the contrary. There was no agenda. This was all in your mind from day one."


I don't believe anyone engages in a passionate debate without an agenda . People thus engaged who deny they have an agenda usually just have a hidden agenda . People with a hidden agenda generally know they are up to something no good . Otherwise their agenda wouldn't be hidden .

I notice that Lekay repeatedly brings up both Annika Banfield ( NAFPS member Freija ), and the film she is helping produce to give Elders a voice on the abuse of Ceremonies . Most of the web pages Lekay put up to discredit NAFPS manage to mention Annika and the film in a defamatory light , and he even has Annika's picture on his web page. Freija has clearly stated this was done
without her permission and she would like Lekay to take this down .

NAFPS message board
Re: Lekay Embarasses Himself Yet Again
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2007, 07:30:22 am »
Freija

"I would rather see he took my photo down as I am not involved in that issue what so ever - but I guess he won´t and if so, I am not wasting any energy on it."

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:xiB8k8Q_tUkJ:http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.8.Robin.htm+ROBIN+ON+NAFPS&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=ca

(Annika's picture and bio linking her to an article trying to discredit NAFPS – I believe this web page has now been taken down )

But her picture , is still here ;
http://www.alcarrollnewagefraud.com/NEWAGEFRAUD.JimmyLaVallee.letter.htm

"Annika Banfield, from Sweden, a film producer, who had done a film supporting Native Americans and it included “fraud and plastic shaman hunter Alton Carroll"

"Does she support Alton Carroll in his leading of anti-social, sexual deviant and racist attacks on people? I hope not."
( I can see where the comments that Al is anti social and racist might be your opinion - but sexually deviant ? You think that is what a court of law would consider a relevant fair comment in a public debate ? I doubt it . )

http://www.alcarrollnewagefraud.com/NEWAGEFRAUD.IsAlCarrollAFraud.htm
Quoting John lekay
"The obvious reasons and motivation for claiming to be of Mescalero Apache origin is usually monetarily driven, promotion of a career, books, seminars, films and donations for websites. '
( Or maybe he is of Mecalero Apache descent, and he is tired of seeing people trash the culture ...
and being partly non native he feels some responsibility to stop this . It IS non native people who are creating the problem and it IS non native people Al Carroll is directing his information towards. I know honorable intentions might be outside the repitior of some people, but they really should open their minds to other possibilities . Duuuhhh )

http://www.alcarrollnewagefraud.com/NEWAGEFRAUD.JLrespondsToJimmyLaValleLetter.htm

"For some reason, he has set himself up on this pedestal. Like a Spanish inquisitor who has anointed himself as the monarchy to intervene actively in religious affairs of the Native American people.

Evidently to serve his own agenda of selling his Swedish films and his Swedish books at the expense of many innocent non Swedish Native American bystanders. To raise himself up like a parasite on the backs of others, he has soiled in his venomous misanthropic hate speech, pathological lying and internet fanaticism."

"3. That a Swedish woman like Annika Banfield should not be allowed to pass judgment on native American medicine men. This European holier than thou self righteousness should not be tolerated"

( she's only in the film for 2 minutes , the rest of it is American Indian Elders and activists. Again Lekay is trying to pretend Elders who are being supported don't really exist )

As Frieja has had NOTHING to do with Lekay or this discussion , except to clarify some "concerns" he had about the film , I am puzzled if Lekay has no agenda, why he keeps coming back to this ? Why does he imagine it is any of his business ?

Lekay keeps bringing up other peoples lack of enrollment , but he is an Englishman . If speaking on behalf of Indians isn't something non Indians should do , and Lekay doesn't seem to be supporting any tribally recognized Elders, it seems to me Lekay should be the first to shut up .

Why doesn't he ?

As I see it the anti NAFPS position has nothing to do with any real concern for truth or justice , and has everything to do with maintaining dominance by any means possible .

The only point I can see in talking to these people, is their characters and true concerns become more and more clear with every contradictory argument they make.
by Not double standards
Friday Aug 24th, 2007 11:21 AM
First of all, if you had noticed, all these links you provided were broken last week. links were activated last night for approximately 3 hours to show Maria since she asked to se evidence of two elders that were abused by nafps. As far as double standards is concerned, I really don't think nafps is in the position to speak of double standards right now with supporting and promoting certain controversial elders while simultaneously bashing others that don't suit their agenda, films or book sales all across Europe concerning "new age interfaith religions".

See article by Alfred Bone Shirt. http://www.dlncoalition.org/dln_issues/pipecommercialized.htm

This is the double standard that has clearly come to light. If you are going to point the finger at elders abusing and exploiting their culture, then the same standard should be applied to every other elder. Anyone who has seen this thread will understand what this controversy is truly about. Defending some while attacking others for the exact same reason doesn't work. http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1296.0

Attempting to confuse and obfuscate this issue only makes this even more clear by the day. There are some extremely serious allegations that have been made regarding a particular elder that is associated with Fejia, Annika Banfield and Al Carroll. Concerning this film venture. "Spirits For Sale". It is however very unfortunate that this has come to light prior to the release of this film since im sure this film has artistic merit and a very important message to convey concerning abuse and exploitation of ceremonies and NA culture in Europe and cross the US.

It is very sad and unfortunate that this reveals Carroll's hidden agenda and ulterior motive for attacking LeKay and heyoka magazine these past 3 months , may have already seriously affected the credibility of this film, the way it has already affected the credibilty of nafps.

Trying to deny that the repeated attacks on LeKay have nothing to do with Looking Back Woman's interview or the release of this film "Spirits for Sale" is utter nonsense. Anyone can see this connection between Looking Back Woman's allegations and why these allegations, (true or false) are not exactly good PR for this film since they are made at the same elder in this film "Spirits For Sale" that has been attacked recently on nafps by his very own people.

"As Frieja has had NOTHING to do with Lekay or this discussion , except to clarify some "concerns" he had about the film , I am puzzled if Lekay has no agenda, why he keeps coming back to this ? Why does he imagine it is any of his business ? '

The reason why it has become LeKays business is because this is what has been used to libel him all over the internet. Now unfortunately, it is his business.

"I can see where the comments that Al is anti social and racist might be your opinion - but sexually deviant ? You think that is what a court of law would consider a relevant fair comment in a public debate ? I doubt it "

These are comments that were made by Jaye La Vallee in a letter to heyoka magazine after being unfairly attacked by Al Carroll. 3 nafps members left the group because of these unfair attacks.

Read the thread. Reply #16 on: June 21, 2007, 05:37:24 pm » by weheli
"SO I ASK WHAT IS THIS THREAD ALL ABOUT??? I believe hidden agendas are here, my opionion is that because Mr. Lavlle was interviewed by the Heyoka Magazine is the reason this thread is here! Are we going to take everyone to task that the Magazine has interviewd? Medicine people say leave it alone, if they are doing wrong it will come back to them. SO please leave it alone. Creator WILL take care of what needs to be taken care of, WE are NOT Creator."
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1206.0

Here is the letter again for anyone who has not seen this.
http://www.alcarrollnewagefraud.com/NEWAGEFRAUD.JimmyLaVallee.letter.htm

"Or maybe he is of Mecalero Apache descent, and he is tired of seeing people trash the culture ...
and being partly non native he feels some responsibility to stop this . It IS non native people who are creating the problem and it IS non native people Al Carroll is directing his information towards. I know honorable intentions might be outside the repitior of some people, but they really should open their minds to other possibilities . Duuuhhh ) "

If he is of apache descent then let him prove it like everyone else can. If he cannot, then he should say so and explain why he cannot. When his own apace people question his authenticity, since he is claiming to represent the apache people on an international level, in books and in films, the ethical and moral action for him to make is clear this controversy up. Leaving these questions unanswered is dong his creditably any good at all. Or the mescalero apache peoples who may not want some one doing this in thier tribes and peoples name. That is attacking other tribes medicine people. Since he is questioning other peoples authenticity, this opens up the door for others to question his.

If it were only non native people he was directing this focus to then why attack native peoples at all. Why not allow their own tribes to take care of these issues and stop meddling in other tribes medicine business. The bottom line, is people do see a very clear double standard. So far his intentions do not appear to be honorable at all but highly self motivated in promoting this film "Spirits For sale" at any cost. Regardless of who is libeled or hurt in the process. He has still been un willing to remove any of the libel. Even when his lies are staring him and others in the face. Until he leaves these lies circulating, I highly doubt this debate will see no rest.

by Just curious
Friday Aug 24th, 2007 1:27 PM
by people aren't stupid
Friday Aug 24th, 2007 9:15 AM
"As Frieja has had NOTHING to do with Lekay or this discussion , except to clarify some "concerns" he had about the film, I am puzzled if Lekay has no agenda, why he keeps coming back to this ? Why does he imagine it is any of his business ? "

by Not double standards
Friday Aug 24th, 2007 11:21 AM
"The reason why it has become LeKays business is because this is what has been used to libel him all over the internet. " Now unfortunately, it is his business."

WHERE DID THAT HAPPEN ?

Could you please show me any evidence of NAFPS saying anything about John Lekay BEFORE Lekay joined NAFPS as Marlon, and began , what amounts to disputing Lakota's right to decide their own Spiritual leaders ?

All I see is a mild concern was expressed about some of the people that Lekay was promoted some in the Heyoka online magazine. and a reposting of information Lekay had placed in the public domain . I see nothing that could be considered "libel " by any stretch of the imagination .

Some of these people being given public exposure through Heyoka, were stated to be frauds , but this was NOT about Lekay , and the only reason Lekay was mentioned , was because he was giving these people public exposure .

Having people disagree with you, and even be a bit rude about it , is not being "libeled" .

Loosing an internet argument, and making yourself look foolish , is not being libeled .

As far as I can see John Lekay interjected himself into this controversy with a determination to affect the outcome, before anything was said about him . And he continues to do this .

Quoting Not double standards
"There are some extremely serious allegations that have been made regarding a particular elder that is associated with Fejia, Annika Banfield and Al Carroll. "

Arvol Looking Horse's relationship with the Lakota people, IS NONE OF LEKAY'S BUSINESS . No one on the outside can make a realistic assessment as to how "controversial" a person Arvol Looking Horse is, within the Lakota community, or how "serious" the allegations are . Arvol Looking Horse has never advertising $250 Sweat Lodge Ceremonies like Kinney, who Lekay has repeatedly defended ( another interesting and revealing double standard about Lekay's true concerns )

Rumors are only spread by those who are spreading them .

Maybe this is just a few noisy people who send out information to the media. There is no way outsiders can evaluate Arvol Looking Horse's position within his own community. Besides the fact that people outside the Lakota community can't know what is really going on, people outside the Lakota community DON"T NEED TO KNOW WHAT IS REALLY GOING ON .

This controversy, and Freija's film, HAS NOTHING to do with Lekay, except he seems determined to keep trying to influence things that are NONE OF HIS BUSINESS.

Why can't Lekay have enough respect for the sovereignty of tribal communities to stay out of the internal affairs of people who live within their own Nation ? Arvol Looking Horse has certainly never said anything about John Lekay .

Why does Lekay keep saying things about Arvol Looking Horse?

WHY IS LEKAY NOT MINDING HIS OWN BUSINESS ?
by Not double standards
Friday Aug 24th, 2007 2:30 PM
First of all, if you had noticed, all these links you provided were broken last week. links were activated last night for approximately 3 hours to show Maria since she asked to se evidence of two elders that were abused by nafps. As far as double standards is concerned, I really don't think nafps is in the position to speak of double standards right now with supporting and promoting certain controversial elders while simultaneously bashing others that don't suit their agenda, films or book sales all across Europe concerning "new age interfaith religions".

See article by Alfred Bone Shirt. http://www.dlncoalition.org/dln_issues/pipecommercialized.htm

This is the double standard that has clearly come to light. If you are going to point the finger at elders abusing and exploiting their culture, then the same standard should be applied to every other elder. Anyone who has seen this thread will understand what this controversy is truly about. Defending some while attacking others for the exact same reason doesn't work. http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1296.0

Attempting to confuse and obfuscate this issue only makes this even more clear by the day. There are some extremely serious allegations that have been made regarding a particular elder that is associated with Fejia, Annika Banfield and Al Carroll. Concerning this film venture. "Spirits For Sale". It is however very unfortunate that this has come to light prior to the release of this film since im sure this film has artistic merit and a very important message to convey concerning abuse and exploitation of ceremonies and NA culture in Europe and cross the US.

It is very sad and unfortunate that this reveals Carroll's hidden agenda and ulterior motive for attacking LeKay and heyoka magazine these past 3 months , may have already seriously affected the credibility of this film, the way it has already affected the credibilty of nafps.

Trying to deny that the repeated attacks on LeKay have nothing to do with Looking Back Woman's interview or the release of this film "Spirits for Sale" is utter nonsense. Anyone can see this connection between Looking Back Woman's allegations and why these allegations, (true or false) are not exactly good PR for this film since they are made at the same elder in this film "Spirits For Sale" that has been attacked recently on nafps by his very own people.

"As Frieja has had NOTHING to do with Lekay or this discussion , except to clarify some "concerns" he had about the film , I am puzzled if Lekay has no agenda, why he keeps coming back to this ? Why does he imagine it is any of his business ? '

The reason why it has become LeKays business is because this is what has been used to libel him all over the internet. Now unfortunately, it is his business.

"I can see where the comments that Al is anti social and racist might be your opinion - but sexually deviant ? You think that is what a court of law would consider a relevant fair comment in a public debate ? I doubt it "

These are comments that were made by Jaye La Vallee in a letter to heyoka magazine after being unfairly attacked by Al Carroll. 3 nafps members left the group because of these unfair attacks.

Read the thread. Reply #16 on: June 21, 2007, 05:37:24 pm » by weheli
"SO I ASK WHAT IS THIS THREAD ALL ABOUT??? I believe hidden agendas are here, my opionion is that because Mr. Lavlle was interviewed by the Heyoka Magazine is the reason this thread is here! Are we going to take everyone to task that the Magazine has interviewd? Medicine people say leave it alone, if they are doing wrong it will come back to them. SO please leave it alone. Creator WILL take care of what needs to be taken care of, WE are NOT Creator."
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1206.0

Here is the letter again for anyone who has not seen this.
http://www.alcarrollnewagefraud.com/NEWAGEFRAUD.JimmyLaVallee.letter.htm

"Or maybe he is of Mecalero Apache descent, and he is tired of seeing people trash the culture ...
and being partly non native he feels some responsibility to stop this . It IS non native people who are creating the problem and it IS non native people Al Carroll is directing his information towards. I know honorable intentions might be outside the repitior of some people, but they really should open their minds to other possibilities . Duuuhhh ) "

If he is of apache descent then let him prove it like everyone else can. If he cannot, then he should say so and explain why he cannot. When his own apace people question his authenticity, since he is claiming to represent the apache people on an international level, in books and in films, the ethical and moral action for him to make is clear this controversy up. Leaving these questions unanswered is dong his creditably any good at all. Or the mescalero apache peoples who may not want some one doing this in thier tribes and peoples name. That is attacking other tribes medicine people. Since he is questioning other peoples authenticity, this opens up the door for others to question his.

If it were only non native people he was directing this focus to then why attack native peoples at all. Why not allow their own tribes to take care of these issues and stop meddling in other tribes medicine business. The bottom line, is people do see a very clear double standard. So far his intentions do not appear to be honorable at all but highly self motivated in promoting this film "Spirits For sale" at any cost. Regardless of who is libeled or hurt in the process. He has still been un willing to remove any of the libel. Even when his lies are staring him and others in the face. Until he leaves these lies circulating, I highly doubt this debate will see no rest.

by Patience
Friday Aug 24th, 2007 6:13 PM
Gee you seem to be repeating yourself . You probably won't notice if I ignore what has already repeatedly been explained elsewhere ;

by Not double standards
Friday Aug 24th, 2007 2:30 PM
"These are comments that were made by Jaye La Vallee in a letter to heyoka magazine after being unfairly attacked by Al Carroll."

Ever hear of staying with the issues ? No matter what was said that was critical of Lavallee, there is no justification for publicly calling someone a sexual deviant, unless you have very strong evidence this is true . Does Lavallee have this evidence ? As a publisher John Lekay has some responsibility for making sure what he publishes is true .

by Not double standards
Friday Aug 24th, 2007 2:30 PM
Question
"Why not allow their own tribes to take care of these issues and stop meddling in other tribes medicine business. The bottom line, is people do see a very clear double standard. So far his intentions do not appear to be honorable at all but highly self motivated in promoting this film "Spirits For sale" at any cost. Regardless of who is libeled or hurt in the process. "

Answer ;

Because when self proclaimed "medicine people" live outside of their tribal community especially in Europe , tribes haven't got the ability to take care of these issues , and education of the affected community is necessary. The only people I have ever seen who complain about this education, are exploiters who are afraid of losing credibility and customers. PROVIDING ACCURATE EDUCATIONAL MATERIAL IS SUPPORTING THE CONCERNS OF RECOGNIZED TRIBAL ELDERS. UNLESS LEKAY IS AN EXPLOITER, THE PROTECTION OF CEREMONIES SHOULD NOT BE LEKAY"S CONCERN .
by No one is stupid is right
Friday Aug 24th, 2007 7:07 PM
NAFPS: "Could you please show me any evidence of NAFPS saying anything about John Lekay BEFORE Lekay joined NAFPS as Marlon, and began , what amounts to disputing Lakota's right to decide their own Spiritual leaders ? "

HEYOKA.: This is not about before. It was during and after the "Heyoka disturbing" debate. This is more untruth, no one was disputing the Lakota's right to decide their own spiritual leaders.

NAFPS: "All I see is a mild concern was expressed about some of the people that Lekay was promoted some in the Heyoka online magazine. and a reposting of information Lekay had placed in the public domain . I see nothing that could be considered "libel " by any stretch of the imagination . "

HEYOKA: This is not a stretch of any ones imagination. Its your words. Plain and simple. Please see below.

July 18, 2007, 06:43:45 am »
LIE 1) Al Carroll: The latest news is that Lekay is apparently making a film about Dupree, a full length feature devoting to smearing Looking Horse. And Lekay is backing the film entirely with his own money. He sent out a series of press releases only last month promoting it.

LIE 2) So it seems that Lekay was lying the entire time he was here. He is not disinterested or nonpartisan as he repeatedly claimed, even though everyone saw through that right away. He is the one who is out to protect his investment in a film.

Monday Aug 6th, 2007 9:45 PM
LIE 3) Lekay is spending huge sums of his own money to produce a film promoting the replacement of Arvol Looking Horse with Suzanne Dupree AKA "Looking Back Woman", an ex hairdresser who has been off the reservation for nearly twenty year yet claims to be the "true" possessor of the Lakota sacred pipe.

BIG LIE
by Louie Lawless
Sunday Aug 12th, 2007 3:12 PM

John LeKay is in no way involved with any film that I am doing or going to do, and he is not financing any film with me or for me.

Thanks Louie Lawless

NAFPS: "Some of these people being given public exposure through Heyoka, were stated to be frauds , but this was NOT about Lekay , and the only reason Lekay was mentioned , was because he was giving these people public exposure "

HEYOKA: Yes agree and it was also said he was promoting and by doing so, propagating genocide and more in the process.

NAFPS: "Having people disagree with you, and even be a bit rude about it , is not being "libeled" .

HEYOKA: Yes and no. Depends on the wording which is used. Calling someone a propagator of genocide, racist, loon, crackpot, feces, lost-wonder bread is more than a bit rude in any ones vocabulary.

NAFPS: "Loosing an internet argument, and making yourself look foolish , is not being libeled "
HEYOKA: That's relative on who you ask and who looks foolish and its still not over. Any way, Its was not about wining or loosing. If lies were decimated as a result of a debate on other forums as well. Yes it could be considered libel.

NAFPS: "As far as I can see John Lekay interjected himself into this controversy with a determination to affect the outcome, before anything was said about him . And he continues to do this "

HEYOKA: He actually went on the site to ask to have his street address removed. Once to Pat and twice to Barnaby. 3 times before even posting. Then posted an interview about Thomas Lightening Bolt. Was asked by Barnaby McEwan to address the "disturbing" thread. Then a discussion resulted out of his response. Mostly by a woman named Tachia Hawk. As far as out come is concerned, he doesn't care either way. Never has. This again is another assumption of yours and most likely your own projection.

NAFPS: "Arvol Looking Horse's relationship with the Lakota people, IS NONE OF LEKAY'S BUSINESS . No one on the outside can make a realistic assessment as to how "controversial" a person Arvol Looking Horse is, within the Lakota community, or how "serious" the allegations are . Arvol Looking Horse has never advertising $250 Sweat Lodge Ceremonies like Kinney, who Lekay has repeatedly defended ( another interesting and revealing double standard about Lekay's true concerns ) "

HEYOKA: Agreed but many people have used this word controversial. see here for example.
http://www.argusleader.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070801/NEWS/708010325/1001
But if Looking Horses name is used to smear LeKay in regard to making a film that he is not making, or is used by Al Carroll to have material removed off his heyoka website, by using his name again, then it is LeKays business. Arvol Looking Horses name was used by Al Carroll on the letter from the ready hosting lawyers. I have been told this was was done with out his permission.

NAFPS: "Rumors are only spread by those who are spreading them"

HEYOKA: Yes , so stop spreading them.

NAFPS: "Maybe this is just a few noisy people who send out information to the media. There is no way outsiders can evaluate Arvol Looking Horse's position within his own community. Besides the fact that people outside the Lakota community can't know what is really going on, people outside the Lakota community DON"T NEED TO KNOW WHAT IS REALLY GOING ON .'

HEYOKA: Yes agreed, it could very well be, but I really don't think most people believe Alfred Bone Shirt is just a "noisy person" and others are just outsiders. http://www.dlncoalition.org/dln_issues/pipecommercialized.htm Alfred Bone shirt is considered by many to be a respected Lakota activist in his own right. If you don't want people not to know outside the Lakota community what is going on then don't libel people outside the Lakota community using his name.

As far as NEEDING TO KNOW, that's relative. Especially if these leaders are participating in international films. That makes it a international public matter. Its called freedom of the press. Especially if this information is sent first hand to the press, that makes it fair game. Thats like saying no one is allowed to report on the Ayatollah Khomeini, the spiritual leader of Iran. Iran is also a sovereign nation. That argument doesn't hold any water at all. If it did, there would be no international news. That's like saying a New York Times film critic cant review this "Spirits for Sale film" either, or the BBC cant investigate any of this Lakota controversy.

NAFPS: "Why can't Lekay have enough respect for the sovereignty of tribal communities to stay out of the internal affairs of people who live within their own Nation ? Arvol Looking Horse has certainly never said anything about John Lekay "

HEYOKA: Yes that's true he has not, but others have done using his name like Al Carroll. LeKay does have a tremendous amount of respect for Looking Horse and for the sovereignty of tribal communities and for all the Lakota people. You began talking about double standards. If you are going to post about any Lakota elder, then this same should rule apply to all Lakota elders. Regardless of who they are. Your nafps forum is an international public forum. Its not just for the Lakota people. You have violated your own "this is a Lakota matter, let them handle it " rule. If you cared for the sovereignty of the Lakota people, then there would be absolutely no posts about any Lakota people on there at all. Including Looking Horse. You should have stuck to the non native new age exploiters, hucksters, scam artists and wanabees. Let me ask you this same question. Where is your respect for the Lakota people? If you have so much respect. Then why don't you remove that entire thread on Looking Horse? Why is it still up?

Read how the Lakota people see this below on your site.

Re: Allegations against Arvol Looking Horse
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2007, 12:11:07 pm » cetan
"You could use that argument for almost any post here - Steve Mccullogh claims to have a Lakota altar and rund a Lakota Sundance so should all posts about him be removed? For that matter why evenpost anything about that Suzanne Dupree, isnt that Lakota business? "

by recognition
Friday Aug 24th, 2007 7:24 PM
Hadn't been to nafps site for quite some time, but looks like that you discovered for yourself the very same things many others had taken note of: "indulging in venomous verbal abuse, psychological invalidation, blame shifting, libel, twisting, projection, omitting and deleting other peoples posts and words repeatedly to create a false impression".

Projection and blatant double standards indeed !

Thank you for all the links. Most enlightening.

I for one do recognize a Native voice, when I hear it. One that doesn't enable New Age Frauds and Plastic Shamans have their parasitic fingers in the pie, trying to make a name for themselves selling their books, films and tours exploiting and profiting of Native Culture, and further more; trashing other innocent Native people's reputations in the process without any ethics what so ever. Getting so cocky about it too laughing in the face of all the damage this has caused.
by Therapist
Friday Aug 24th, 2007 7:54 PM
NAFPS: "Ever hear of staying with the issues ? No matter what was said that was critical of Lavallee, there is no justification for publicly calling someone a sexual deviant, unless you have very strong evidence this is true . Does Lavallee have this evidence ? As a publisher John Lekay has some responsibility for making sure what he publishes is true "

HEYOKA: Ask LaValle? This standard should also apply to nafps. I really don't think you are in any position to even use this word "integrity" when you have called John LeKay a violent white supremacist racist crackpot and associated him with the likes of child molestor Harley Reagan. That was stated as a fact by Al Carroll. La Valless comments were just his assessment and therapeutic opinion based on his professional experience working with many disturbed sexual deviants. This does not mean Al Carroll is in fact a disturbed sexual deviant. On the contrary. Jimmy La Valle could very well be wrong. The same way Al Carroll was wrong in calling John LeKay a violent white supremacist crackpot etc. This is just La Vallees speculative opinion. But totally agree, you have a very good point.

How ever this does not mean it is true. Please see below.

Quote A) "Alton Carroll disturbs me, yet does not hook me into his street-language tactics. I see how Alton Carroll focuses on sexual deviance and sexual perpetration issues… this along with talks of violence and threat cause me deep concern because it appears that he has a deeper sexual issues, possibly unresolved disturbances from being victimized or perpetrated as young person - homeless, surviving and living the street life"

Quote B} He displays through his accusations that sexual issues are deep and strong on his agenda and that he relies on this deviance as a way of shaming others, likely to deflect his own history. He also will take portions out of people’s writings - misuses them out of context - changes them or sends writing that he says are actually attributed to the person trying to defend themselves. Carroll has accused you, John LeKay, of being a racist! This is very sick.

Quote C} Like so many homeless children of ethnic dark-skinned minorities, struggling for their identity, especially ones who were separated from their roots, these tend to suffer shame even more deeply. From disconnected abusive parents. They, we are at higher risk for sexual deviance… because of family dysfunction and sexual and violence issues and the loss of nurturing and sustaining affection.

Quote D} His emphasis and referral to other people’s sexual deviance issues of others leads me to feel he is suffering with and from this issue. As well, he offers – no solution and has taken one him self. I feel that Alton Carroll has unresolved deep-seeded sexual deviance issues and got then as most often have, through a troubled, violent, alcoholic childhood.

NAFPS: "Because when self proclaimed "medicine people" live outside of their tribal community especially in Europe , tribes haven't got the ability to take care of these issues , and education of the affected community is necessary. The only people I have ever seen who complain about this education, are exploiters who are afraid of losing credibility and customers. PROVIDING ACCURATE EDUCATIONAL MATERIAL IS SUPPORTING THE CONCERNS OF RECOGNIZED TRIBAL ELDERS. UNLESS LEKAY IS AN EXPLOITER, THE PROTECTION OF CEREMONIES SHOULD NOT BE LEKAY"S CONCERN ."

HEYOKA: Providing accurate educational material is also matter of opinion. Mala Spotted Eagle was called a rapist. Where is the evidence? How accurate was that educational material? Information and allegations based on hearsay, gossip is not educational material.


I KNEW SEQYOYAH TRUEBLOOD AND HE WAS NO CHEROKEE MEDICINE MAN

Why are all you white people getting so uptight about an Indian calling a fraud a fraud?

I wish someone could explain to me the need to believe these frauds are spiritual elders?

What’s the point of analyzing each other and threatening to sue each other. The frauds always get found out in the end.

Let’s take a look in a dictionary, like so many have suggested:

"Fraud is defined to be "an intentional perversion of truth" or a "false misrepresentation of a matter of fact" which induces another person to "part with some valuable thing belonging to him or to surrender a legal right".

Well if you go by this definition, this Trueblood was a super-fraud – I mean old style, original super fraud!. His ideas are way, way out there and they have nothing to do with Cherokee spiritual beliefs. I mean, hell, you’ve got a good chance of being right if you call any fool claiming to be Cherokee a fraud. There are over 300 "Lets Pretend that we are Cherokee" groups, some actually calling themselves Tribes that we know of and probably twice that many that we don’t know about yet. I knew this guy and I can say he's a fraud anywhere, anytime and there's not a court in the land that would convict me. This guy had no sense of decency. He would gladly accept money for any line of bull he could pull from all the new age books he read.

All the Cherokees and all the anti-fraud groups have known about this twinkie for a long time. Back in Oklahoma we used to get people asking about him all the time. He was a colorful character, I'll give him that, but he was no medicin man!

Let's see if I can remember all the complaints against him ...

In the late 80s he started off by claiming to be a Cherokee shaman. Then when the Cherokee got on him for lying, he claimed to be Cherokee/Chocktaw. In 1999,he was interviewed by Whitley Strieber on Dreamland and called himself a Native American medicine man. When a bunch of Cherokee called in to correct him, they weren't allowed to go on the air. He tried to shut down several websites run by Cherokees exposing him as a fraud. All the attention on him was bad for business so he quit calling himself a medicine man. He displayed all the typical patterns of behavior that frauds display. He ranted and raved about how negative the Cherokee were and how selfish and greedy the real spiritual elders were because they didn't want to share with the whites and how racist that was ….
You know – all the 80s wannabe rhetoric.

In the 90s, the Cherokee didn’t want anything to do with him, but Sequoyah got his hands on something called the Urantia Book. He concocted some pretty far fetched “teachings” out of his headings and started teaching shapeshiftnig classes and conducting pipe ceremonies as an “adopted Lakota.” The Lakota got on him for that and you didn’t hear about him for a while. Then he re-emerged with a UFO bent on his scam.

He was an opportunistic dirty old man too. I remember he used to do this exercise he called the "circle of remembering" where he'd have some nubile young white girls do the "Breath of Life".breathing exercises that turned in to heavy duty make out sessions with him in what he called the teaching position. They were supposed to take you on a journey to another dimension. I think it would have been better to go on a journey to the free clinic after one of his "ceremonies."

But let's not forget, he was a crazy as he was perverted. He was heavy into the UFOlogy movement. He thought he saw a UFO and it hypnotized him into taking a trip to another city (that's what he told his wife anyway). He said the aliens made his physical body physical body pack a bag and leave home, but it’s not important because we’re really all spirit. Old Sequoyah would get a group of young girls in a circle and he'd tell the most outrageous stories. He used to brag about his ability to contact ancient ancestral guides and about how you have to watch out for imposters in the dimensional planes – there are inter-dimensional spys everywhere. He wasn't paranoid, the interdimensional spys were really out to get him. He used to accuse people who criticized him of being an inter-dimensional spy too. This guy didn’t have the first ideas what being Cherokee was about. Everything he peddled came right out of new age books. If anyone asked him to prove he was enrolled, he'd change the subject really fast and start telling stories about how aliens want us to download our intentions to transform mother earth and clean up all the pollution and make everyone love each other.

In the late 90s, Sequoyah was going around with Nancy Red Star (an Art Bell regular) and was making lots of dough at the star people conventions. He led the opening ceremonies. When he was on the Star People circuit he was claiming to be a Choctaw medicine man/wisdom keeper. He went around charging to give these so-called oral histories that all Indianswere supposed to share combined with his own own experiences with the "star people" who he called his cosmic brothers and sisters. He’d conduct pricey workshops with white people who wanted to believe a real hot shot Indian wanted to put them in a sacred ceremony where they could chat with these star elders and ask them to heal the planet. He also claimed they could do racial healing and help them master psychic abilities.

I thought got teachings that Indianss were "seeded" by extra terrestrials from the Pleiades was just copying the Martian Chronicles, but later I learned that the idea that ancient indigenous people are hybrids with aliens really comes from the Thule and the Vril societies which were the groups that formed the Nazi Occult! That old fool could sell ice to an Inuit and he really knew how to sell to the UFO crowd.He used to go around the Star Widsom conferences selling these personally blessed eagle feathers (dyed chicken feathers) for $50.00 and asking young women is they need any of his “Ecotherapy” -- where he rambled on and on about ecology while he felt them up. Then he got involved with some really weird people – the Program for Extraordinary Experience Research (PEER). They liked him because he used to tell about his abduction experiences and how native people have always been abducted and experimented on by aliens and how all natives are really half-alien hybrids. This comes straight from the Nazi occult, but boy those nuagers sure eat that stuff up with a spoon!

Some of his followers were so spacey they thought they could transform the human race with the power of their mind. They were all into this belief that the human race was about to evolve spiritually and that they were the chosen few who would be saved by the space aliens because they were so pure and enlightened. There’s really very little difference between what Sequoyah was selling and what the Nazis believed. He knew white people wanted to believe that they were destined to be some cosmic enlightened master race and they would pay top dollar to have him play shaman and tell them the space aliens would really like them best out of all the other races. He used to tell white people that they were more spiritual than real NDNs and that when the great environmental armagedon came, they would be saved by E.T. because he had passed onto them all this sacred knowledge. If you do a little research you can see where he got this cock and bull story, the Nazis believed the Aryan race was part space alien too and destined to evolve and carry on as the rightful inheritors of the earth. Sequoya described these cosmic brothers and sisters as being tall and having pale, pale skin. Sounds a lot like a description of the Aryan race to me.

The other thing that really ticked off the Cherokees is that Sequoya used to tell his white followers that they didn’t need to actually work for any kind of social change, they could just use the power of their mind to download their “intentions” into the space alien’s minds and they would get rid of all the earth’s problems. Old Sequoyah used to say he was sharing the instructions the star people were channeling to him that would restore the balance of nature and help white folks take their our rightful place among the peoples of the universe when the earth changes came. People would pay $600 to $800 dollars each to go to his ceremonies so they’d be saved from the coming environmental disasters. He used to scare the shit out of some of them.

While he was rakin in the dough with this scam, he was also working with James O'dea and the IONS institute (That's really the Institute of Noetic Sciences that even debunked on Native America Calling by Russell Means)
Russell Means got really mad at him for the space alien stuff. It used to be on the web but its prolly gone now.

He got himself in a whole lot of environmentalist books representing the Native American perspective on ecology and he was even asked to meet with people in the White House. When he was interviewed in 2005 in that video, he came off too crazy and most of his statements got edited out. LeKay put his video on the Heyoka site. In the middle of the interview, Sequoyah goes into his mystical act and he says, "Thunderbird, that's why I had to just stop and be with for a minute here" Like Red Elk, he got onto some nuage belief about invisible giant Thunder Beings that visit you in a dream and make you a heyoka/contraya. Maybe that’s why he’s included in the magazine. So he's supposed to be a Choctaw or a Cherokee but he's talking about being made some kind of Lakota spiritual expert now?. It was clearly just a plane passing overhead but this old faker liked to hang out with new age hippies that wanted to believe any piece of crap he pulled out of his butt. Later on, he's talking White Buffalo Calf Pipe Woman and he's supposed to be Choctaw or Cherokee. I don't think the nuagers ever catch all these contradictions. They just swallow whatever's shoveled into their empty skulls.

Recently, I heard he was calling himself the "Resident elder" at the Kootenay
Wilderness Tours in Calgary Canada.
He kinda got around selling ceremonies by calling them "Wilderness tours"
His ceremonies were just silly and ridiculous. He used to charge a couple thousand dollars for sweat lodges and other ceremonies he made up and he'd claim that his sweat lodge ceremonies will help you make contact with beings from other realms.
He ran what he called "traditional purification/healing lodge" and presided over "thanksgiving and rising sun ceremonies" and a "peace pipe ceremony". He was an adopted Lakota and a pipe carrier for a while. (Aren't they all?) He loved to get young girls in his sweat lodges half dressed and really work on them. He had a charismatic personality and he used it to try to control anybody without a strong mind.

Now, I know that when you first look at his teachings you might think he’s just a harmless crackpot, but you shoudn’t be foolish enough to dismiss Seqyoyah’s teachings as the mindless rantings of a harmless kook. The catcaclysmic teachings are rooted in some very ugly ideology.

Rick Ross has dozens of pages on the web that explain the nuage tendency to embrace the Armageddon Paradigm.

THE PROPHETS OF APOCOLYPSE – White Supremacists and the Theology of Christian Identity by Dennis Tourish and Tim Wohlforth
http://www.rickross.com/reference/christian_identity/christianidentity19.html

A lot of you white folks acting crazy on this message board should read about how cults work because the way you defend these frauds, it looks to me like you're all in a cult.
I've never seen people act like this LeKay bunch before that weren't in a cult.

“The Armageddon Paradigm
“We pay particular attention in this study to what we call "The Armageddon Paradigm." Originating in the Judeo-Christian tradition, this view has spawned religious cults like the People's Temple (Layton, 1998) the Branch Davidians (Breault and King, 1993), and, most recently, Aum Shinrikyo (Lifton, 1999). Scores of groups have been identified, who adopt what can be defined as a millennial perspective of imminent doom (see Landes, 2000). All of them proclaim that The End Time is upon us. This means that most of the world's population will be annihilated, with the exception of the chosen few. On the far left, also, capitalism is claimed to be in crisis, revolution is imminent, and the elite presently organized into a vanguard party will soon triumph (see Lalich, 1992; Wohlforth, 1994; and Tourish, 1998, for fuller accounts of this approach). The far right has now adopted its own version of the Armageddon Paradigm. As Cox (1998) has noted, its cataclysmic reading of the problems thrown up by modern capitalism can be read as almost Marxist like in their implications. However, whereas leftists anticipate Armageddon in terms of class insurrection and warfare, rightists see the End Time in terms of race war, and depict whites (or Aryans) as the chosen survivors of a racial conflagration.”
This is exactly what the crystal skull fanatics, the Pleidian star people cult and other neopagan groups who become obsessed with the Armageddon Paradigm are really saying. They know that their ideology wouldn’t be accepted in its naked form, so they need to dress it up in pseudo-respect for native people, especially those long dead, and pretty ideas about global harmony.”
These people aren’t harmless. They are trying to erase true indigenous belief systems and replace them with a new ideology that is as oppressive as Christian capitalism and that is based in ideas of white superiority.
So if you connect the dots, there’s a very good reason why Martin and Yeagly and other white supremacists held such a place of honor in Heyoka magazine. The other thing I’ve noticed is that all the frauds LeKay’s upset about NAFPS outing have ties back to Ol Grampa Wallace Black Elk. He started all this space alien nonsense back in Washington state in the 1980s. Now he’s got more followers than you can count and white people only want to believe his lies. LeKay knew exactly what he was doing when he included all those Wally Black Elk clones in little jihad against common sense It reveals a deep white supremacist tendency in gullible white folks like LeKay that needs really needs to be exposed.
It's just like the white people to go out and search for a crackpot like this to represent all of us and not contact NDNs who are doing real work to save the environment.

This guy Trueblood really knew how to sell a new age yarn. He used to study what fads were possible and make up stuff he knew whites wanted to hear.

I don’t know why all these supposedly educated people can’t see how stupid and racist it is to believe that American Indian people are descended from space men and have magical powers and exist to SERVE as spiritual guides for whites. This garbage has go to go!

This man Truebood was not an Indian at all. He's not enrolled with the Cherokee, the Choctaw, the Chickasaw or the Lakota. He is a fraud and anyone who can’t see that is as crazy as he was. He sold new age bunk andUFO fantasies to gullible white people with more money than sense. He did more to erase real Cherokee spirituality and replace it with nazi garbage than most do and he made a lot of money doing it. You get a bunch of white folks together every weekend with each one of them paying two grand for a sweat lodge … Well, you do the math.

It says that "Heyoka says "Sequoyah Trueblood was an internationally respected Cherokee/Choctaw Elder, healer, ceremonialist and teacher."

That's a load of crap. Like they say on the Gieko commercials - Do a little research! the Cherokee don’t want to be associated with this nut!

I know we never got a call from LeKay trying to check this fool out!

Any person in their right mind should be able to see that these Wally Black Elk clomes that LeKay thinks are “respected elders” are Frauds. Respected by who? Certainly not the Cherokee, I can tell you that for sure.
I never could understand all this fanatical devotion to Wally Black Elks disciples. If I live to be 100 I'll never understand it.

Now I don't care how naïve or uninformed you are, common sense should tell you that all the space alien nazi crap has nothing to do with the Indianpeople. Has everyone lost their minds? If you want to believe in space aliens and act like a crazy fool, I say fine - knock yourself out. I don't even mind if the UFO nuts get rich off their little green men fantasies, but when you start calling yourself a medicine man and start saying that Indians believe this nazi crap, well then you've got a fight on your hands.
Eveybody has the right to believe any weird-ass thing he want, but he doesn't have the right to say that I BELIEVE IT or go around saying the this Nazi stuff really came from the Indians.
We're not extint. Some of us are still around to complain.
DO A LITTLE RESEARCH!

It's so easy, even a white man could understand it ay?

If you don’t believe me,
Call the Cherokee and call the Choctaw

You'dd see they don’t claim him

Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma
16th & Locust
P.O. Drawer 1210
Durant, Oklahoma 74702-1210
(580) 924-8280
(800)522-6170

Cherokee Nation
Attn: enrollment
P. O. Box 948
Tahlequah, OK 74465
918-453-5000


Jerry
by Jerry
Friday Aug 24th, 2007 8:24 PM
DITTO!
This settles it for me!


RE: LEARN ABOUT THE DISEASE

Let's all learn together, shall we?

Q: Should the voices expressing alarming concerns about NAFPS activities be silenced?

A: Well now, this is a loaded question. You phrase it in a way that you think will fool your opponent into having to agree with you. It's pretty close to the straw man argument woo woos are so found of construction. A SLAPP suit is not a voice expressing concern – it is an act of power and intimidation intended to silence dissent. Again, dictionaries are important things to have. They tell you the meanings of words.

Q: Are you an Indian Alton Carroll? Why aren't you enrolled?

A: This has been identified many times as a red herring. There is no blood quantum requirement for skepticism.


Q: What "Native Activists" are you talking about here if not the NAFPS group itself?

A: A common logical fallacy is to assert the right to name your opponent and then to do so unfairly. NAFPS is perfectly within their rights to call themselves an activist group, even if that irks you. You don't seem to grasp the principle of fairness that is so necessary for civil debate – you need to let your opponent make his own arguments and define his own position, then you need to repeat it back fairly. Rush Limbaugh is really good at ignoring this rule of civil debate. He insists that it's his right to re-define Feminists as Femi-Nazis etc. You basically do the same thing by coming up with unreasonable perjoratives for your opponent and arguing about what your opponent calls himself, rather than arguing the issues. It has been stated many times that there are 300 member of NAFPS and only 3 are "European" this is only 1% of the group, but you ignore the statistic and insist on creating red herrings around it. Additionally, you have failed to prove that any of the LeKay interviewees are enrolled or provide telephone numbers of legitimate tribal authorities who could be contacted attest to these questionable individuals entitlement to conduct ceremonies or charge for alleged native wisdom.

Q: Moma Porcupine, Barnaby McEwan, Trish Jacobs and Annika Banfield? Are they now Indians also, well known for their "Indian-ness" (just ask anyone at NAFPS). ?

A: This is your perception and not a fact supported by evidence. You keep returning to the same red herring for lack of ability to argue the issues. European brains and Native brains alike are capable of


Q: Are they the voice of THE Native America today?
A: It isn't logical to assert that an individual needs to speak for many separate sovereign nations in order to voice his skepticism . This is another red herring, but I do appreciate your attempts at coming up with a new red herring. The other one is getting really old.
It also represents and extremely Western way of thinking. People indoctrinated by white male Christian Capitalist Patriarchy are conditioned to look to one sole authority on matters of authenticity. Your need for a hierarch
If there were one voice of authority, it would be Arvol Looking Horse and you have contradicted yourself repeatedly by searching for another authority that will say the things you want to hear.

Q: NAFPS itself is a prime example of SOCIOPATHIC BEHAVIOUR: ?

A: This is a sweeping generalization about 300+ people that you have never met. Fallacy of outrageous overgeneralization.




Q: Glibness and Superficial Charm

A: You contradict your own ad hominem attacks here. You can't accuse your opponent of negativity and associate him with being a serial killer or a terrorist and them claim he's glib and charming. It's an occupational necessity for most con-men to be glib and charming. The LeKay interviewees are the ones who possess all the charm.

Q: Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.

A: What would be the purpose of "manipulating or conning" people to examine the claims of those trying to sell something more carefully? I can't think of an example where NAFPS has tried to manipulate or con anyone. Encouraging people to think doesn't put them under your control. Telling them they must accept your authority as a "shaman" definitely puts them under your control. I think you're confused here.


Q:Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."

A: I can't think of anything more grandiose than claiming that one is in contact with para normal forces or that one has the authority to contact spiritual beings. (or 27 foot thunderbirds or invisible alien big foots) Since most debates about cultural appropriation center around the concept of claims entitlement to practice native religions by the privileged and those in the mainstream of society, I think you've got things backwards again.

Q: Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.
A: While it may irk you that your fantasies have been challenged by skepticism, you have yet to prove that the claims your interviewees have made are true. Again, shifting the burden of proof to your opponent does not make him a liar.
In science, a theory is considered incorrect until it can be shown to be true. Extraordinary claims require extra ordinary proof. Your side has the burden of proof and you have failed to meet it. Calling your opponent a liar when he points this out is an ad hominem fallacy.
You have been told repeatedly that the person claiming authority to conduct ceremony has the burden of proof to show s/he is entitled to do so, yet you continue to try to shift the burden of proof to the skeptic. This is a logical fallacy.

Q: Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.

A: In order for someone to feel remorse, one would have to have done something for which it is reasonable to feel guilty like ….. oh I don't know …… selling native ceremonies for profit and making up stories about space aliens to sell to gullible rich white people?????

Q: Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.

A: Well, you've got me there. In contrast to the wide spectrum of emotions that the LeKay side expresses, I suppose everyone in NAFPS would seem quite stoic in contrast. But seriously, what ulterior motive do you think these 300+ people have? What promises did they make? I seem to recall several claims made

Q: Incapacity for Love

A: Again, I don't know how you'd measure that with 300+ people.

Q: Need for Stimulation
Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.

A: Do you mean like calling people liars and terrorists, getting their site shut down and threatening them with lawsuits. Stuff like that? It seems the person most skilled in the physical threat in this debate is John Martin. I can't recall one instance of a NAFPS member ever threatening to come to someone's home or place of business and physically assault them.
http://www.brentmichaeldavids.com/johnmartincalls.html

But there's some pretty damming evidence on Martin all over the web. Not to mention the misogyny, anti-Semitism, homophobia and racism he posts to public boards.

Q: Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.

A: Again, you have failed to show that NAFPS ever victimized anyone. They seem to have a lot of compassion for all the people who died in new age sweat lodges.

Q: Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.

A: Again, John Martin seems to have cornered the market on the lack of impulse control.

Let's take a look at his work:
Left on the Blue Butterfly group answering machine 2:50 pm 3/2/07

“Hey Brent you Mother fucker. You’re fuckin’ dead mother fucker. I know where you live you little shit. You think you’re fuckin’ so tough. Puttin shit on my fuckin’ family. You’re fuckin’ dead you mother fucker. I’ll be out there to kick your mother fuckin’ ass this weekend, you better watch your back you mother fucker. You’re fuckin’ dead you little shit. Fuck you.”

Left on the Blue Butterfly group answering machine 3:00 pm 3/2/07

“Hey Brent, you mother fuckin’ faggot, you mother fucker, you ass ss sucking mother fucker. You know what mother fucker? Th th th this is the beginning of your end of you mother fucker. You talk shit. You wanna talk some shit? Talk some shit to me you punk ass bitch. Come on mother fucker. You know what mother fucker? You better watch your back. You know what? I got people in, in fuckin’ Minnesota. They’ll rip your fuckin’ heart out you little bitch! Talk shit about my family why don’t you come talk to my face you mother fucker? You punk ass bitch. You punk ass mother fuckin’ bitch. Fuck you you mother fucker.”

Left on the Blue Butterfly group answering machine 3:50 pm 3/2/07

“Hey Brent, you got 48 hours to take that shit down you put down you you you ah those pictures you put of my family. I don’t give a fuck what the fuck you say about me, but you take that shit down in 48 hours or else I’m gonna come for you mother fucker. You hear me? You got 48 hours to take that shit off. Otherwise I’m coming for you mother fucker. I’m coming for you you fuckin’ bitch.”
And all this occurred in under an hour. Hmmmmmmm

Q: Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.

A: Do you have dossiers on the juvenile history of these 300+ people?


Q; Irresponsibility/Unreliability
Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.

A: How has NAFPS caused devastation. If the LeKay interviewees are really in contact with these powerful supernatural forces, they would be immune to a few people laughing at them or asking for proof of their claims.

Q: Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts.

A: You've failed to provide a police report, or a documented case of this on the part of any NAFPS member. I have seen several stories on the AP wire about fake medicine men who take advantage of females.
Here's a pretty good reason to have an organization like NAFPS –
"Native American Calling Thursday, January 30, 2002 - Spirituality Abuse: An Invisible Crime:

An excellent program on Spiritual Abuse focusing on Sexual Abuse. Unfortunately, abuse by spiritual leaders is not uncommon in Indian Country. Stories about abuse of power among self-proclaimed spiritual leaders are becoming more and more common. One of the worst abuses occurred when a man passing himself as a medicine man raped a woman who was nine months pregnant.

Guests include Arvol Looking Horse, Ray "Skip" Sandman from Duluth MN, a traditional healer for the Mille Lacs Band who grew up in the Fond Du Lac community, John Witherspoon of Charlevoix, MI, a founding member of Great Lakes Origins from the Bois Forte band of Ojibway, and Dr. Mimi Sa, a licensed clinical psychologist from the Grand Portage Rez in, MN, an advocate of culturally competent therapy."

Remember that time when JOHN MARTIN FOOLISHLY CONFUSED THE POP UP ADDS ON A FREE SITE WITH THE CONTENT OF THE SITE?

""Men's" erotic underwear? Penis enlargement? Where to buy anti-depressansts on-line. LOL.

The list goes on and on. I knew you were a perverted freak "Al" but, Penis Enlargement", just goes to show how "little" you think of yourself. Damn, Al, you Mexican/Irish/Apaches really do know how to party. Go to :http://www.newagefraud.org. " – John Martin on badeagle.com

People using free web sites have no control over what pop up ads will appear. Here is the documentation of a false (and profoundly stupid) allegation.


Q; Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.

A: Again, do you have information on the migration patterns of all 300+ members?

Q: Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.

A: NAFPS has had the same image since I became aware of it in 2002. Can you explain the ever increasingly fantastic stories of the people you interview? Before Art Bell, Red Elk only spoke "Indian" to the visible earth bound big foot. His fish tale just gets bigger and bigger.

RE: Other Related Qualities:
This is getting tiresome now, so I'll just provide counter examples:

Contemptuous of those who seek to understand them:
"Mr. Silverstein:
A jewish Indian? That's a new one. I am a full-blood Oglala Lakota. Both my mother and father were from Pine Ridge, S.D. That is all you need to know for now until I can confirm who you really are what are you intentions.
If you are just another curious white person, then that is all you need to know. If you are a legitimate journalist then I will be more than happy to answer any of your questions about my Lakota tribe, or current Indian issues or anything else you feel concerned about. You can call me right now and I will be more than happy to talk to you man to man.
Call me now or you lose credibility.XXXXXX, ask for John Martin. I will let my administrative asst. know that a "Hawk Silverstein" will be calling.
Look forward to hearing from you soon.
John Martin (Fully-enrolled Oglala, Lakota)."

John Martin to a routine request for information:
Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them:

Authoritarian: Hawk"

You want to question my Lakota ancestry, I tell you what. If you can get that fucking Mexican asshole Al Carroll to prove he is in fact Apache, then I will show you all the documents, papers, enrollment numbers from the BIA etc;

Are you Native? I don't like it when non-Natives question or attack my people, you had better tread lightly there "Hawk" before you get hurt.

I will track you down like the wild pig you really are.

FUCK YOU VERY MUCH!!!!!!!!!!!" – John Martin


Secretive:
"My enrollment is none of your fuckin' business you mother fuckin jew!"
John Martin to another request for information from a Christian man with a German surname.

Paranoid :

“Phidoux:
If you want no part of this, of what lies ahead, then simply stand back, this is of no concern to you, it is a battle that I started with these little pale-faced cowards, and I will see it through until there is no more resolve or trepidation left in those who seek to destroy Dr. Yeagley."

--John Martin on badeagle.com

Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations where their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired



Goal of enslavement of their victim(s):

" When I spoke to BM (Brent Michael Davids ) about those pics he put up of my kids, he sounded very submissive and extremely effiminate. BM speaks and actually sounds like Truman Capote. When I confronted Carroll about the issue, he told me to f*ck-off, then hung up on me.

I never threatened his parents, that's a flat out lie, I did, however, promise to whip his butt, he's basically a coward." – John Martin on badeagle.com
"

Exercises despotic control over every aspect of the victim's life:

""This AE person is that little taco-head "Fraud-Hunter", the lying mexican/irishman. It's all good though, when my U.S.C. TROJANS defeat Norte Dame today, we will drop a bomb on that little mexican creep, we will frag his ass, and then laugh as they run to their "blogspots" who nobody reads, because nobody cares, it is my mission to seek and destroy that little beaner, the Lakota way. If anyone is offended by my post, well, TOO -FING BAD, for you see, it is my destiny to seek and destroy the wicked, evil, posers who have dishonored all my relations." – John Martin on badeagle.com


Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs their victim's affirmation (respect, gratitude and love) :

"Fuck you, fuck boy and your fuckin' fat gay butt-buddies. Go off and have a fuckin; gay butt party with your fuckin' fat gay but buddies. You wil respect me, bitch. You will feel my power and I will make you my bitch, bitch" – John Martin in a transcript from a telephone call to another person who disagreed with him

Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim:

" We shut down that anti-Indian hate site. I was given some really powerful advice from a Lakota elder. He basically told me that what Carroll and his Euro-creeps were doing was totally wrong, spiritually. Carroll is treading down a path that can be very dangerous to himself and those around him. I am not the danger, I am just a humble Lakota man, Carroll is offending representatives that exists in another realm.

I don't think that Crazy Al will ever understand Native ceremony, the way we do, because HE IS NOT INDIAN. He shows no respect for our spiritual ways. Consequently, the spirit world took him out. He needs to seek advice and start the healing process, he hurt many innocent Indian men and women.

AL CARROLL NEEDS TO WRITE A FORMAL APOLOGY TO EVERYONE HE HAS SLANDERED, MOCKED, RIDICULED ETC; HE HAS LOST ALL CREDIBILITY WITHIN THE NATIVE COMMUNITY.

He had this coming, everyone knows it, if he wants to find an offshore account and return to his treacherous ways, we will be waiting for him."


Incapable of real human attachment to another :

" “Whew! Damn Michelle you really need to control those emotional outburst, it is very unlady like, or is it that time of the month again?
There is no use for big words on a skank like you, we are all in the same gutter here, you just too full of your own self-important stench to see through your own bs.
I was really expecting more from a woman with your alleged education. I don’t think that you’re even pissed at me, your stinky panties are in a bunch because your monkey-boys film didn’t even merit a single Oscar. Poor little urban indian, you have my sympathy.
Kiss,
TALLSOLDIER77 “ – John Martin to a woman he attempted to court online
on tryworks.org

Unable to feel remorse or guilt :
""This AE person is that little taco-head "Fraud-Hunter", the lying mexican/irishman. It's all good though, when my U.S.C. TROJANS defeat Norte Dame today, we will drop a bomb on that little mexican creep, we will frag his ass, and then laugh as they run to their "blogspots" who nobody reads, because nobody cares, it is my mission to seek and destroy that little beaner, the Lakota way. If anyone is offended by my post, well, TOO -FING BAD, for you see, it is my destiny to seek and destroy the wicked, evil, posers who have dishonored all my relations." – John Martin posted on badeagle.com


Extreme narcissism and grandiose :

"“Very profound observation Tsani. I didn't mean to "dis" you Dr. Yeagley, I was just elaborating on your comments about the macho-Indian image. I get called "Chief" of the "Big Injun" by co-workers, (males only) all the time. I don't take offense to it because I know it is said out of respect for the immense power and inherent enigmatic presence we Indians exude by just being who we are. If one day a person refers to me as an Indian in a negative tone, then we are going to have a problem.

If I were one of the students, I would wear the feather regardless, make the school administration physically remove the eagle feather, then sue their ass for damages.
Feedback?" – John Martin on badeagle.com


""hawk":

It's a rather simple tricked I learned from that fucking wetback Carroll. The same one he used to stalk me, then steal my personal info, like my home address, phone number , work number etc; I don't want you to get your feelings "hurt" when I shut down Carroll's punk-ass little website, again!...................LOL. Now was fucking funny. LOL.

Al Carroll is an Indian fraud, he attacks innocent Indian men and women. Do you feel threatened? Do you want to be put down, like a rabid dog?


LOL.

Look, "Hawk", you're another "johnnie-come-lately" .Carrroll is old news. We shut him down, we made him look like a fool. God that was so mother-fucking hilarious.
Gotta run.

Have a nice day!" – John Martin


May state readily that their goal is to rule the world:
"“Genghis Khan was a unique and master tactical leader in his time, however I think the great Roman Empire did more for "globilization" whatever that means than Khan, but Khan was a solid, true Warrior. He embodied the essence of what "Warriorship" was all about.

TS77”
--John Martin on badeagle.com


Q: Sound familiar?
A: Why yes it does. But you're describing John Martin.

LEARN ABOUT THE DISEASE
STOP THE ABUSE

Thank you for the suggestion, I think I did.


by Heyoka
Friday Aug 24th, 2007 8:41 PM
Jerry,

Thank you for that and totally agree with your assessment and apologies to the Cherokee people for not contacting you. We will do in the future if anything like this ever arises.

Yes his video was included because we actually thought his comments about Al Gores "inconvienant truth" film were contrarian and interesting. but obviously out there, to put it mildly. (Since he just crossed over to the spirit world not to long ago0. He also did mention the word heyoka which was the main reason for including it at all. His bio was found somewhere online.

How ever we have listened seriously to all these complaints and it was removed along with Red Elk and all the others. This was never intended to offend anyone. Non of them were. There was no deliberate promotion either. Just asking objective questions. However after thinking about this and carefuly listening we understand the perception.

Thanks again for your comments.
by Jerry
Friday Aug 24th, 2007 8:57 PM
If you're sincere, you'll emove the video and write an apology to the Cherokee people in your next issue.

It harms all Indian people when we're represented by these types. It's hard enough teaching our children and grandchildren to be proud of their heritage without white folks deciding to represent us like UFO nuts.

Does it tell you anything that you keep having to remove stuff from the magazine?


I repeat
NEXT TIME DO A LITTLE RESEARCH!

Jerry

I ain't picked up your tobacco yet
by More
Friday Aug 24th, 2007 8:59 PM
"The other thing I’ve noticed is that all the frauds LeKay’s upset about NAFPS outing have ties back to Ol Grampa Wallace Black Elk. He started all this space alien nonsense back in Washington state in the 1980s. Now he’s got more followers than you can count and white people only want to believe his lies. LeKay knew exactly what he was doing when he included all those Wally Black Elk clones in little jihad against common sense It reveals a deep white supremacist tendency in gullible white folks like LeKay that needs really needs to be exposed."

Jerry don't get this white supremacy stuff at all. Please look at the serious issues we cover. I find this baffling???? Why would any white supremacist be concerned about how environmental pollution is effecting the Lakota or Navajo peoples. Or starvation in Dafur or the poverty and AIDS in Africa, or is involved with freeing Tibet?

by Did my research
Friday Aug 24th, 2007 9:09 PM
Very informative post Jerry . Thanks for a good read ! lOne correction though .

It was probably Sequoya Trueblood"s Dad who passed away last September. This is probably another rumor that Lekay's faulty research has helped to spread . See reply #13

The obituary and other info can be found in reply 16 and 17 .

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=619.0
by Did my research
Friday Aug 24th, 2007 9:25 PM
Reply 13 by Marlon is John Lekay . Marlon was his nick.
by Julia
Friday Aug 24th, 2007 9:40 PM
Jerry,

see apology here.

http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.9.CONTENTS.htm

According to the Ponca City News, Oklahoma, Sequoyah E.
Trueblood died , on Sept. 3. 2006. Yes its posisble this could be his father, but remember the photo looked the same.

Here is the obit and URL:

Sequoyah E. Trueblood, Marland resident, died Sunday, Sept. 3,
2006, at the Claremore Veterans Center. He was 83. Arrangements
are pending with Trout Funeral Home and Crematory.

http://www.poncacitynews.com/templates/obits/288911018283261.bsp


Julia


by Marlon
Friday Aug 24th, 2007 9:52 PM
"This is probably another rumor that Lekay's faulty research has helped to spread . See reply #13 "

Not a rumor. Don't get carried away. I sincerely hope you research allegations of white supremacy as much as you research Sequoah Truebloods obituary.
by Environment
Saturday Aug 25th, 2007 9:51 AM

Jerry: It's just like the white people to go out and search for a crackpot like this to represent all of us and not contact NDNs who are doing real work to save the environment.

Take a look at this website. http://www.silkwoodproject.com and more.

Harold One feather. Hunkpapa Lakota. Environmental activist
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.4.ENVIRO.HaroldOneFeather.htm

Charmaine whiteface. Environmental activist. Defenders of the Black Hills.
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.7.ENVIRO.CharmaineWhitetFace.htm

William Under baggage. Lakota. Human rights activist and founder of Indigenous peoples network.
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.4.ENVIRO.WilliamUnderBaggage.htm

Timothy Benally. Navajo. environmental activist.
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.4.ENVIRO.TomothyBenally.htm

Garvard Good Plume. Lakota. human rights activist
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.6.GarvardGoodPlume.Interview.htm

Larry Merculieff. Athabascan environmental activist.
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.7.LarryMerculieff.htm

NON NATIVE PEOPLE WHO HAVE HELPED RAISE AWARENESS ABOUT NATIVE AMERICAN CAUSES

Helen Calidicott. Nobel prize nominee, scientist
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.4.ENVIRO.HelenCaldicott.htm

Doug Brugge. Environmental activist
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.4.ENVIRO.DOUGE%20BRUGGE.htm

Dr Diane Sterns. Scientist.
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.4.ENVIRO.Diane%20Stearns.htm

Peter coyote .Actor. human rights and environmental activist
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.9.PeterCoyote.htm

Adi Roche. Environmental activist
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.9.AdiRoche.1.htm

Remy C. environmental activist
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.9.RemyC.Letter.htm


by Not a cliché person myself
Saturday Aug 25th, 2007 10:48 AM
Jerry what is this white supremacy labeling stuff about? Why would a white supremacist be interested in raising awareness about any of this? Please see below.

This is about the Jewish holocaust
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.8.Holocaust.htm

This is about the holocaust in the Americas
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.8.NewWorldHolocaust.htm

This is about a Buddhist monk. Highly recomend you read this.
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.1-Bikku.htm

This is about Africa
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.2.FOTOS.GORIL%20BOOTHE.htm

This is an African American artist.
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.4.SCULPT.SimoneLiegh.htm

Lepers in Hawaii
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.4.HEALTH.htm

This is a Cuban artist.
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.4.SCULP.TeresitaFernandez.htm

This about Vietnamese Buddhist monk.
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.2.TICH%20HANH.htm

This is about the extermination of pygmies in Africa.
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.3.PYGMIES.htm

This about African Americans.
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.2.KATRINA.htm

This about Iraqis
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.2.PANO.FALLUJAH.htm

This is about aboriginal music
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.3.DIDGERRIDOO.htm

This is about Chinese medicine
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.3.JI%20ZHANGJ.htm

This is art from Iran
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.4.FOTOS.ShirinNeshat.htm

This is about india
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.4.FOTOS.TomGibson.htm.htm

This about the Japanese
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.2.PANO.HIROSHIMA.htm

This about Pine Ridge
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.2.Q&A.BRENDA%20APLIN.htm

This about the exploitation of the Black Hills
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.2.FEATURE.PAHA%20SAPA.htm

This about tribal sovereignty
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.2.BUSHtribel.htm

This about Cuba
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.1-FOTOS-JENNIFER%20PLIEGO.htm

This about eastern poetry and philosophy
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.1.WORDSMITH.%20EAST.htm

This is about Africa.
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.1.PANO.LRA.htm

This is about Saigon and Vietnam
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.1-PANO.JOHN%20PILGER.htm

This is about Darfur from 3 years ago before anyone else was covering it.
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.1.PANO.DAFUR.htm

This is about the Tsuanami orphans
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.1.PANO.CHOMSKY.htm

This is a Korean artist
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.2-SCULPTURE.JEAN%20SHIN.htm

This is about Janjaweed in Africa
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.6.FEATURES.JanjaweedSpeaks.htm

This is about poverty in Pine Ridge
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.7.MelanieMcbee.htm

Indian woman being raped
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.7.HUMAN-RIGHTS.Rape.htm

This is about the murder of 50,000 Canadian native children
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.8.Unrepentant..htm


by Dr Marlon
Saturday Aug 25th, 2007 2:53 PM
Jerry. Quotes

A} "LeKay knew exactly what he was doing when he included all those Wally Black Elk clones in little jihad against common sense. It reveals a deep white supremacist tendency in gullible white folks like LeKay that needs really needs to be exposed."

B} "A lot of you white folks acting crazy on this message board should read about how cults work because the way you defend these frauds, it looks to me like you're all in a cult. I've never seen people act like this LeKay bunch before that weren't in a cult."

C} "I don't think the nuagers ever catch all these contradictions. They just swallow whatever's shoveled into their empty skulls."

Answer. Have no idea who Wally Black Elk is, do not believe in aliens, big foot or the loch ness monster and I am definitely not Rasptuin, Ward Churchill, Rupert Mudoch. a new ager, nazi, wanabe, twinkie, tin foil hat wearer, or believe I have have implants inserted in my cranium or belong to a cult.

How ever what I do believe is that this is seriously at play here, on this forum is some of this.

What is prejudice?

Simply put, prejudice is bias. Prejudice refers to the negative opinions, judgments, beliefs, and feelings we hold about individuals because of their membership in certain groups or categories. When these negative views lead us to act in certain ways toward these individuals and groups, the result is discrimination.

Racial prejudice is one form of prejudice. Racial prejudice is prejudice that is based on membership in racial groups. The issue of whether humans are grouped into "races" naturally, or whether "race" is a concept which we use to categorize people but which has no scientific basis, is addressed below.

So any difference can be the basis of prejudice?

Any difference could be used to make distinctions between groups. But evidence shows that we tend to emphasize those aspects of stereotypes that relate to our most closely held values. For example, if we value intelligence, then we may be quick to see another group as stupid. Or if hard work is valued by a group, then it may label others as lazy. Other values and their corresponding negative stereotypes are: clean/dirty, honest/liar, fair/exploitive, strong/weak, reasonable/emotional, mature/childlike. It seems that one function of stereotypes, or prejudice, is to help us feel good about ourselves and our group by focusing on comparisons with other groups on issues that are most important to our personal and group identity.

There are a variety of mechanisms that we employ to help us feel better about ourselves and our group. For example, we like to believe our group is unique, and we tend to overestimate the uniqueness of our good features. But when it comes to our negative qualities, we like to share these with others and, thus, overestimate how widespread these features are among others

But do all stereotypes represent a way of feeling better about ourselves? Can't we hold stereotypes just because we have limited information or experience

Yes, stereotypes can develop because of limited information. At the most basic level, stereotypes are related to the basic mental process of categorization. Our brains are very good at forming categories: good versus bad, edible versus nonedible, friend versus foe. Without these generalized concepts and categories, getting through the day would demand an overwhelming amount of analysis and careful consideration of every object and person we came into contact with. Categorization helps us take shortcuts and helps us become more efficient in making decisions and acting.

When a waiter at a restaurant comes to our table with a small pad and pencil, we prepare to give him our order. We don't have to spend much mental effort wondering: "Are you our waiter? Can we give you our order?" In recent years, psychologists have been recognizing just how much of this processing takes place automatically without our even being aware that we are doing it. Stereotypes in the sense of categories and concepts help us organize our thinking, helping us to perceive and remember more than we would without these aids. The problem with the stereotypes about social groups that underlie prejudice is that the categorization processes do not result in accurate generalizations. While the man in the restaurant with a pad and pencil is most probably a waiter, the African American, old, Jewish, gay, disabled, Hispanic, Catholic, Irish, or obese person to whom we apply a stereotype probably does not fit that stereotype as well as we assume.

But if the brain is so efficient at categorization, why doesn't experience correct inaccurate stereotypes?

Before answering that question, it is important to note that we may not be exposed to very much experience in our daily life that would contradict our stereotypes. For example, residential segregation keeps the home lives of different racial groups separate to some degree. But also, our stereotypes of other groups ("out groups") often lead to feelings of anxiety when we encounter the members of an out group. One of the oldest insights of psychology is that a main way we deal with anxiety is through avoidance: We simply avoid contact with individuals by crossing the street, turning our heads, talking to someone else, hiring someone else for a job, striking up friendships with someone else we feel more comfortable with, sitting down at the lunch table with those who seem to be more like us

Returning to the question of why stereotypes persist in the face of contradictory experience, we find two main answers. The first is that because stereotypes may help us feel better about ourselves, we avoid challenging these stereotypes. In other words, we become defensive and protective of our worldviews and only reluctantly question our deepest assumptions. And these worldviews help protect not only our self-esteem, but also real-world privileges and benefits that accrue to us as members of an in group. For example, racist discrimination by banks that hurts African American communities by limiting mortgages to these areas also benefits White neighborhoods by making more money available to them. Discrimination which in the past has limited slots available to Jews or African Americans or Asian Americans at universities has benefitted the majority population by making more slots available to its members. So, maintaining our prejudiced views of others allows us to feel better about our own group and to avoid challenging unfair social practices that benefit us.

Psychologists have found that we put energy into various mechanisms that help us maintain our view of the world. For example, we can seek out and pay attention to information that supports our views. Evidence suggests that the more strongly we hold a stereotype, the more we tend to remember confirming information about the group. There is a kind of circular process here: For example, the more we believe stereotypes about gay men being effeminate, the more likely we will remember incidents which seem to support these views.

We also discount or rationalize information that is contradictory to our beliefs. The Black person who is intelligent and articulate, the gay man who is not effeminate, or the Jewish person who is not pushy become exceptions to the rule, but the rule remains. And we may look more closely for grammatical mistakes in the Black person's speech than in a White person's; or we may think that the gay man has developed a public persona designed to fool us; or that the Jewish person is especially clever in working his or her exploitive influence behind our back.

Ten Things You Can Do To Fight Prejudice and Racism

Be honest: Recognize your own biases and biases through open discussion with others. Examine your own prejudices, biases, and values. Discuss your own experiences of being hurt by prejudice as well as the ways you have benefitted from discrimination.

Be secure: Explore and find realistic pride in your own group identity. Having a sense of your own background and group identity will help reduce anxiety and defensiveness in relation to others. Knowing your own strengths will also help you to see strengths in others.

Be a partner: Work on projects with members of groups different from your own. Working as an equal alongside others from different groups on a common project is one of the best ways to undo prejudice and increase familiarity with others.

Be an anti-racist parent: Expose your children to diversity at a young age. Children can benefit from knowing other children from different groups at very early ages, before prejudices and biases get in the way of their making contact.

Be a role model: Be vocal in opposing racist views and practices. And don't just criticize, but help educate others about issues and about your own experiences.

Be an ally: Support victims of discrimination and prejudice. Offer support on whatever level you can. For example, offer yourself as a mentor for someone in your field of work.

Be an activist: Challenge "top-down" or institutional racism. Work to reduce institutional discrimination and prejudice in government, corporations, the media, and other institutions.

Be a member: Support anti-prejudice and anti-racist organizations. Following is a partial list of a some organizations or find one that addresses an issue particularly important to you.

Be a teacher: Teach tolerance. Fight prejudice and racism by proactively teaching understanding, openness, and conflict resolution skills. (The Teaching Tolerance magazine is one resource for teachers and others to get ideas and resourcesÐit is put out by the Southern Poverty Law Center.

Be a student: Educate yourself and others. Reading books, seeing movies, going to hear speakers about the experiences of other groups is an enjoyable way to increase understanding and empathy.
by Summery
Saturday Aug 25th, 2007 5:49 PM
Dr. Al Carroll: "New Age Frauds Plastic Shamans or NAFPS, located online at Newagefraud.org has been shut down temporarily due to the lies and libel by an English New Age racist, John Lekay, editor of Heyoka Magazine. Lekay is a leading promoter of New Age exploitation and colonialism and seeks to dominate Native spiritual traditions, especially Lakota religion, by promoting a series of fringe characters, all the while silencing Native voices."

John LeKay: Libel Number 1. New age fraud was shut down by their own choice. They were asked to remove the egregious libel concerning myself and were given 4 and a half days to do so. They chose to shut down their own site rather than remove the libel.

I personally have no interest in any new age doctrine, philosophy or religion and am definitely not a racist. Evidenced by my work with many cultures, peoples and friends from all across the world. I have never tried to silence anyone's voice or promoted New Age exploiters. Interviewing various people and asking objective questions to access the truth is not promoting them. However, due to this misperception, controversy and other reasons, these interviews in question have been removed.

In answer to the charge of silencing all the native voices across the US? In reality, what I have done is the exact opposite and provided a platform for their voices could be heard. So that the injustices, human rights abuses, the environmental issues, the poverty and the rest are disseminated as wide as possible, through Heyoka magazine, links and list servers.

by Summery
Saturday Aug 25th, 2007 5:52 PM
Dr Al Carroll: "Mr Lekay joined the Newagefraud. org forum a few weeks ago and tried to bully its members into withdrawing our criticism of New Age racism, exploitation, sexual abuse, and greed and commercialism."

John LeKay: Libel Number 2. I asked for evidence of proof that these people were "frauds, perverts, sham-ons, feces, rapists, lost wonder breads, perverts, exploiters". I asked Al Carroll and his group to substantiate their claims, email gossip, hearsay, speculation and assumptions. For doing so, I was viciously attacked by Al Carroll and one or two others and was called a child, racist, insane, loon, rambler, cross dresser, conspiracy theorist, ignorant, propagator of genocide and pedophile interviewer and more; on various forums such as http://www.indianz.com  etc. I was also told I act as if I have no family, "the worst of all Native American insults" according to him. Please see example below.

Al Carroll: In Indian Country one of the worst insults is "He acts like he has no family." That's the way you've sometimes behaved".

JL: That's an interesting insult and have not heard that one before. Again to me insult like offense is a matter of choice. Not something that happens to you or is out of one's control. I take no insult at the worst of your insults and again see it as more projection on your part. You would get further by looking into the mirror and speaking to yourself. To be frank with you, I take any insults from you as a compliment and shows I'm really on the right track.
by Summery
Saturday Aug 25th, 2007 5:55 PM
Al Carroll: "When we refused to back down, Lekay became abusive, arrogant, childish, and attacked our members, misrepresented the position of Newagfraud.org and the respected Native elders we support, and used foul and abusive language with elderly members, even repeatedly comparing Native elders who oppose the New Age movement to mass murderers."

John LeKay: Libel Number 3. Again this is not true and in reference to Tachia Hawk. The woman that called Looking Back Woman and Mala Spotted Eagle frauds, sham ons, feces, lost wonder bread children. No foul language was used by myself. Not even once. Please see below.

Al Carroll: "Didn't your family teach you to respect those older than you?'

JL: Alton, Just because someone is older is not always a reason to give them respect. Charles Manson is much older than me but he is also a murderer. I cannot respect anyone I have seen solid evidence to be a gossip and a slanderer.
by Summery
Saturday Aug 25th, 2007 5:58 PM
Al Carroll: "The moderators banned Lekay for his abusive behavior."

JL: Libel Number 4. I was banned from NAFPS because I would not react to his abusive name calling. When all else failed and Al saw he was miserably loosing the debate, he hit the delete button and banned me. He also banned me because they could not provide me with substantiated evidence of some of the people they were accusing as frauds, perverts and more. As far as posting emails of accusing Mala Spotted Eagle of being a rapist on NAFPS and calling him one on indianz.com; I investigated this and found out he was never charged in Europe of rape. This was complete fabrication and libel. 

by Summery
Saturday Aug 25th, 2007 6:00 PM

Al Carroll: "He responded by contacting our host with more misrepresentations and false accusations, demanding we take off criticism of him or the New Age exploiters he promoted. When we refused, our host, which has changed owners, shut us down."

John LeKay: Libel Number 5. I only contacted the POW WEB hosting company after seeing more libel about accusing me of being people I was not on the NAFPS site and more libel like saying I was making a film to smear Arvol Looking Horse and more.

Once again, Al Carroll was graciously given 48 hours to remove the libel, and then an extra two and a half days. In total 4 and a half days. He self sabotaged his own site by not listening to his own hosting company.

He not only not remove this libel, but he then posted his own web hosting company's lawyer's warning letter and my confidential letter online. He then allowed more comments and threats about this letter by others, like posting this letter on http://www.indianz.com. Such as having me" torn apart by Pit Bulls and Dobermans". This is considered harassment and in violation of his terms of service.

POW WEB TERMS OF SERVICE.

Offensive Communication - harassment, defamation, libel and hate speech - Customers are prohibited from using our services to engage in activities that may be considered harassing, defamatory, libelous or malicious. Whether a particular activity is within scope of this prohibition is solely within our discretion. We generally consider harassing activity - or harassment - to be the act, or intention, of intimidating, threatening or otherwise tormenting others using our services. Harassment can result from the language used, or the frequency or size of a message. Hate speech or literature includes, but is not limited to, anything that prejudices, creates a hostile bias or grossly defames a group.

Al Carroll obviously violated Pow Web's terms of service and his legal contact by indulging in libel, harassment, intimidation, prejudice, maliciousness, defamatory comments etc.

I can easily prove this libel and that's why he was taken offline. The same way I can easily prove that what he states in this email is also libel. He did this to himself. This situation could have easily been remedied. I never asked for his site to be removed. I simply asked for a remedy to remove this libel and my private home address, street address, from his site.
by Summery
Saturday Aug 25th, 2007 6:02 PM
Al Carroll: "Lekay has also contacted many people by e-mail, trying to obtain their support, which failed miserably. The only support he found was from a notorious white supremacist posing as part Comanche, David Yeagley, and one of his leading supporters, a violent racist named John Martin who has issued a number of death threats."

John LeKay: Libel Number 6. John Martin is a full blood Lakota and not a white supremacist, who had photos of his wife and two small children posted by Al Carroll on his website. I have never heard of a a full blood Indian being a white supremacist. That's like saying an African american is a white supremacist. It defies all logic and common sense.

This seems to be the pattern. That anyone who disagrees with Al Carroll or questions his authority is viciously labeled a racist, a white supremacist, fraud, child, insane, ignorant, paranoid, dangerous, violent, pervert, rapist, pedophile interviewer, cross dresser, wing nut, loon, crackpot, Rasputin (his latest label for me) and much worse. It also seems that when he can't use logic during a debate, he reverts to name calling as if he is a gang member; not a PhD college professor.

by Summery
Saturday Aug 25th, 2007 6:04 PM
Al Carroll: "Lekay uses his Heyoka Magazine to publish several libelous articles about Dr Al Carroll, one of the founders of NAFPS, and Annika Banfeld the director of a Swedish charity for Native children who also helped produce a film against the exploitation of American Indian spirituality."

John LeKay: Libel Number 7. These articles are interviews with Jimmy La Vallee, who was slandered and libeled by Al Carroll, and Robin, an ex NAFPS member and respected NA elder who was also attacked by him. Also an interview with Thomas Lightning Bolt after he was slandered and ridiculed; an article questioning Al Carroll's claims of being a Mescalero apache. These articles have been removed.

by Summery
Saturday Aug 25th, 2007 6:05 PM
Al Carroll: "Lekay is an ignorant, paranoid, and dangerous man who stated publicly he believed American Indians still live in tipis."

John LeKay: Libel Number 8. I have never stated that NAs live in Tipis. This is pure ludicrousness and more mendacity. Another absolute lie!

by Summery
Saturday Aug 25th, 2007 6:07 PM
Al Carroll: "He smears all who disagree with him as FBI and RMCP agents, or even tools of Bush and Cheney."

John LeKay: Libel Number 9. I asked Barnaby McEwan ( "Alternative" English man residing in Totnes Devon England and NAFPS administrator) if he was in the FBI after he was attacking Kevin Annett and his film "unrepentant". As far as I know, only one other person has attempted to stop this film other than these agencies, other than Al Carroll. So it seems Dr. Al Carroll, the FBI and the RMCP have a lot in common in silencing the genocide, rape and molestation of 50,000 Canadian native children. Why would anyone in good conscience want to do this?

See film you decide.
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.8.Unrepentant..htm
by Summery
Saturday Aug 25th, 2007 6:09 PM

Al Carroll: "Lekay is spending huge sums of his own money to produce a film promoting the replacement of Arvol Looking Horse with Suzanne Dupree AKA "Looking Back Woman", an ex hairdresser who has been off the reservation for nearly twenty year yet claims to be the "true" possessor of the Lakota sacred pipe."

John LeKay: Libel Number 10. This is pure 100 percent libel again. I do not even know Louie Lawless the filmmaker. I interviewed him once last year. I never met Looking Back Woman and also interviewed her last year and have zero to do with this film - Absolutely NOTHING! This is another reason why he was kicked of his site since this can easily be proved by asking the filmmaker Louie Lawless himself. Any web hosting lawyer can send him an email and find this out. You can't go around lying about people like this online these days and not expect consequences.

LIE 1) Al Carroll: The latest news is that Lekay is apparently making a film about Dupree, a full length feature devoting to smearing Looking Horse. And Lekay is backing the film entirely with his own money. He sent out a series of press releases only last month promoting it.

LIE 2) So it seems that Lekay was lying the entire time he was here. He is not disinterested or nonpartisan as he repeatedly claimed, even though everyone saw through that right away. He is the one who is out to protect his investment in a film.

Monday Aug 6th, 2007 9:45 PM
LIE 3) Lekay is spending huge sums of his own money to produce a film promoting the replacement of Arvol Looking Horse with Suzanne Dupree AKA "Looking Back Woman", an ex hairdresser who has been off the reservation for nearly twenty year yet claims to be the "true" possessor of the Lakota sacred pipe.

BIG LIE
by Louie Lawless
Sunday Aug 12th, 2007 3:12 PM

John LeKay is in no way involved with any film that I am doing or going to do, and he is not financing any film with me or for me.

Thanks Louie Lawless
by Summery
Saturday Aug 25th, 2007 6:10 PM
Al Carroll: "Lekay and Dupree have white European New Age supporters presently spreading libel and lies about Looking Horse and his planned trip to Europe to speak against New Age exploiters. While falsely accusing Looking Horse of seeking to sell the sacred pipe to European whites, some of these same European whites themselves are ceremony sellers and promoters of New Age frauds like "Rainbow Eagle" and the so called "Deer Tribe."

John LeKay: Libel Number 11. I have no European supporters or any idea who "Rainbow Eagle" is or this "Deer Tribe". This is more of the same libel and misinformation. The only person I can think of who I know who has questioned this film and issue is by a very well known Lakota activist and elder named Alfred Bone Shirt.

http://www.argusleader.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070801/NEWS/708010325
by Just open your eyes
Saturday Aug 25th, 2007 9:07 PM
Using a label to describe any human being, whether that label is “White Supremacist, violent, racist, environmentalist, kind, or stupid, is never going to be an entire description of all of a persons attitudes and behaviors, or what attitudes and behaviors people support. People are too complex to ever be able to have all their attitudes and behaviors fit into one category, or one description.

These labels only describe one aspect of a persons behavior.

A person might be very interested in environmental issues, and consider themselves an environmentalist. This person might buy only organic foods, and donate to environmental defense leagues, but if their personal behavior includes disposing of toxic substances by flushing them down the toilet, that behavior is still bad for the environment, and being an environmentalist in other ways, doesn't make it any less damaging.

Most people who have racist attitudes and behave in ways that are disrespectful to other races are not conscious that they are racist, and they are often not fully aware that the behaviors resulting from these attitudes do cause damage.

The behavior often referred to as White Supremacist, or White Privilege, usually seems to be rooted in an unconscious assumption of entitlement and cultural superiority.

One of the basic assumptions that frequently gets labeled as White Privilege or White Supremacist seems to be that the dominant culture has a right to impose it's values on other races and cultures, and that these cultures need to serve the interests of the dominate culture, even if this is to their own detriment.

When people disregard another races right to define, manage, maintain and protect their own physical, or cultural resources, or when people disregard another races right to select and empower their own leaders, these specific behaviors often get labeled as “racist “.

Here are some examples of specific behavior may have been interpreted as racist in this situation.

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1029.0

« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2007, 03:32:27 pm »
Quoting Marlon ( John Lekay )
“Hi Tachia,
Please list all the documents, links, articles or any other information that will prove that Looking Back Woman is a "fraud" and a "plastic shaman" What ever that means.I don't mean gossip, hearsay, conjecture, fiction or your own personal opinion. What I'm looking for is incontrovertible evidence.”

« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2007, 08:56:42 pm »
Quoting Tachiahawk in response to Marlon ( John Lekay )
“5)please provide a list of references from the Citizens of the Federally Recognized Indian Nation, on the Reservation, in the Community, in which she lives .. stating that she is indeed their Spiritual Leader and is well Respected by them ..

6)please provide letters of endorsement, approval, and authorization by the Indian Leaders, Government etc. on the Reservation and in the Community, in which she lives .. stating that she is indeed a Recognized and Respected Spiritual Leader Sanctioned by them, given Authorization by them in all Spiritual matters, for and by the Community in which she lives ..”

« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2007, 07:41:11 am »
Quoting Marlon ( John Lekay )
“By the way I forwarded Tachias email to Looking Back Woman and will provide the information if she chooses to. I do not have this and quite frankly do not see what this has to do with anything.”

------------------------------------------

At this point, it would seem a reasonable respectful non racist response would have been to realize it is up to the Lakota Nation to define, select and recognize it's own Spiritual leaders, and a reasonable response would have been for Lekay to contact the Lakota Nation to see if the persons claiming a position of Spiritual authority were supported in these claims by the Lakota Nation. If a few persons who were tribally recognized as authoritative, were found to support these claims, even if this was not completely agreed upon by all tribal authorities, this woman's claims would have at least been respected by NAFPS as “controversial “.

But so far I have not seen any evidence presented of this womans claims being supported by any tribally recognized leaders within the Lakota Nation .

Instead, Lekay has repeatedly attempted to minimize the authority of Arvol Looking Horse, and he has made repeated disrespectful comments about the protection of ceremonies. He has also undermined the credibility of many people who are working to support the protection of ceremonies. As can be seen in the quotes published by Lekay below .

I don't know if this web page is still up .
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.8.MUSIC.Tommy.2.htm

The cached page of the URL above which is saved and dated June 18 used to read ;

Quoting John Lekay
“What I do see is a pattern that Al Carroll/educated Indian attacks anyone who seems to not to fit into his compartment of what he believes an authentic medicine man should be. It looks like he took it upon himself to be the new age Tomás de Torquemada. "The hammer of heretics". A part of It appears its based on this Green Grass proclamation Why would anyone want the Bush Cheney administration telling people how to pray. That's bizarre. “

The web page has now been changed, but it still criticizes the protection of ceremonies.

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:LFt7e0Q4XWgJ:http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.8.MUSIC.Tommy.2.htm+Heyoka+lightning+bolt+NAFPS&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=ca

Quoting John Lekay
“What I do see is a pattern that Al Carroll/educated Indian attacks anyone who seems to not to fit into his compartment of what he believes an authentic medicine man should be. It looks like he took it upon himself to be the new age Tomás de Torquemada. "The hammer of heretics". A part of It appears its based on the Green Grass proclamation “ ( a proclamation signed by many Elders strictly limiting non native participation in Lakota ceremonies )

Quoting the opinion of Tommy Lightening bolt which was published by John Lekay;
“A brother in the Mii-Dii-Wii-An (The great Medicine Society) has said this about this issue: Are these people working for the C.I.A., or F.B.I., or something else? Thank you for sending me a copy of that "Green Grass Proclamation" by Arvol Looking Horse. You are right, that is BIZZAR! How can he say those things? “

“I am shocked that Arvol would say other races "keep out (basically)"

“An elder ( my note : AN UNNAMED ELDER I NOTICE ) said that proclamation is "evil" and "crazy", He said these people are "crazy". And who the heck is Arvol to say anything (con..)".

“As for the selling of ceremony, this is VERY tragic. I would NEVER sell ceremony. And for those who do I say this; These kinds of powers come from the Great Creator and are loaned to us, they do not belong to us. And if they do not belong to us then how can a person sell it? “

On the very same web page that claims concern for the abuse of ceremonies , Lekay has published criticism of NAFPS quoted from Scarlet Kinney who claims to have been “attacked” by NAFPS . Scarlet was advertising Sweat lodge Ceremonies for $250

http://web.archive.org/web/20060716170816/http://www.thestandingbear.com/events.htm

And then there is this ;

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1029.50

Reply #52 on: June 04, 2007, 09:13:57 pm »
Marlon2
“And when someone questions you, you try everything you can to make them back off; because they don't fit into Arvol's Proclamation Ideal. “

“I could easily say your entire website is an extension of Arvol Looking Horse's proclamation and you being one of his followers and his way of policing who he sees fit or doesn't see fit to smoke a canunpa.

“ I don't follow Arvol Looking Horse all over Europe [childish insult] promoting books and films on who you think is fit or not fit to be a medicine man, or who should give him Eagle Feather's and their canunpas.”

THE TRUTH ABOUT WHAT LEKAY”S AGENDA IS , SHOULD BE OBVIOUS

One of the basic assumptions that frequently gets labeled as White privilege or White supremacist are that the dominant culture has a right to impose it's values on other races and cultures , and that these cultures exist to serve the interests of the dominate culture, even if this is to their own detriment.

WHEN PEOPLE DISREGARD ANOTHER RACES RIGHT TO DEFINE , MANAGE , MAINTAIN AND PROTECT THEIR OWN PHYSICAL OR CULTURAL RESOURCES, OR WHEN PEOPLE DISRESPECT AND IGNORE ANOTHER RACES RIGHT TO SELECT AND EMPOWER THEIR OWN LEADERS, THESE SPECIFIC BEHAVIORS OFTEN GET LABELED AS RACISM . NO MATTER HOW GOOD OR JUSTIFIED PEOPLE WHO ENGAGE IN THESE BEHAVIORS MAY IMAGINE THEY ARE , IN THE OPINION OF MANY INDIGENOUS PEOPLE, THESE BEHAVIORS DO CONTRIBUTE TO GENOCIDE .

by Heyoka response
Sunday Aug 26th, 2007 5:59 AM
NAFPS: "Using a label to describe any human being, whether that label is “White Supremacist, violent, racist, environmentalist, kind, or stupid, is never going to be an entire description of all of a persons attitudes and behaviors, or what attitudes and behaviors people support. People are too complex to ever be able to have all their attitudes and behaviors fit into one category, or one description.

These labels only describe one aspect of a persons behavior.

A person might be very interested in environmental issues, and consider themselves an environmentalist. This person might buy only organic foods, and donate to environmental defense leagues, but if their personal behavior includes disposing of toxic substances by flushing them down the toilet, that behavior is still bad for the environment, and being an environmentalist in other ways, doesn't make it any less damaging.

HEYOKA: Then using a label like sexual deviant or serial killer or Nazi to describe any human being, is never going to be an entire description of all the persons attitudes and behaviors people support. These labels only describe only a part of a sexual deviant or serial killers or Nazis behavior. Do you have any idea how absurd you sound? Deliberately and repeatedly labeling a person a white supremacist (when they have shown no signs of this behavior is indicative of an pathological liar. There is no excuse or rational defense other than this person is purely evil, seriously mentally disturbed, delusional or is taking drugs.

White supremacy is a racist paradigm based on the assertion that white people are superior to other races. The term is sometimes used specifically to describe a political ideology that advocates social and political dominance for whites. Being labeled a white superset is labeling someone a nazi and someone who is a supporter of the Jewish holocaust.

White supremacy, as with supremacism in general, is rooted in ethnocentrism and a desire for hegemony. It contains varying degrees of racism and xenophobia. White supremacy is often associated with ethnic cleansing and racial separation. White supremacy has often resulted in anti-black racism and anti-Semitism, although it has also involved prejudice and discrimination against a wide variety of "non-white" groups, including Arabs and the various Asian peoples. Many white supremacists also consider some people to be inferior for non-racial reasons, such as certain non-Protestants, or homosexuals.

Different forms of white supremacy have different definitions of 'white', and not all white supremacist organizations agree on which group is the greatest enemy. White supremacists frequently consider Jews to be the gravest threat to their cause, and accuse them of manipulating other minority groups for their own gain.

Politically, socially and economically, white supremacy was dominant in the United States before the American Civil War and for decades after Reconstruction. The same is true of Apartheid-era South Africa and of parts of Europe at various time periods; most notably under Nazi Germany's so-called Third Reich. The extent and nature of white supremacy's continuing influence in western culture is a subject of ongoing debate. In some parts of the United States, many people who were considered non-white were disenfranchised, barred from government office, and prevented from holding most government jobs — well into the second half of the twentieth century. White leaders often viewed Native Americans (known as First Nations in Canada) and Australian Aborigines as obstacles to economic and political progress, rather than as settlers in their own right.

This label has got to be one of the most repugnant and abhorrent labels anyone could ever apply to some one who entire philosophical, spiritual and ideological and political belief system is opposed 100 percent to this. John LeKay finds every aspect of this label DISGUSTING!!!! The reason being is that this is what this kind of ideology can lead to. Please see this film. This is about the Jewish holocaust. When you apply this label to a person this is what in fact you are also talking about. http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.8.Holocaust.htm

Al Carroll should learn to be more careful and responsible in the labels that he uses. He owes John LeKay a serious apology. Stop the excuses and the absurd rationale.
by Journal
Sunday Aug 26th, 2007 6:04 AM
NAFPS: "When people disregard another races right to define, manage, maintain and protect their own physical, or cultural resources, or when people disregard another races right to select and empower their own leaders, these specific behaviors often get labeled as “racist “.

HEYOKA: No one has disregarded another races right to define, manage, maintain or protect their own physical or cultural resources. Asking for evidence to understand why Looking Back Woman was called a fraud, feces, plastic sham-on, lost wonder bread and the rest for being interviewed in heyoka magazine is a matter of principle, journalistic investigation, truth and morality. If anyone regardless of what race they belong to is accused of these retched allegations, then a journalist who was labeled a "propagator of genocide" for interviewing this person, has the right to ask to see evidence.

by Journal
Sunday Aug 26th, 2007 6:12 AM
NAFPS: Reply #10 on: May 31, 2007, 08:56:42 pm » Quoting Tachiahawk in response to Marlon ( John Lekay ) please provide a list of references from the Citizens of the Federally Recognized Indian Nation, on the Reservation, in the Community, in which she lives .. stating that she is indeed their Spiritual Leader and is well Respected by them ..

Tachia Hawk} please provide letters of endorsement, approval, and authorization by the Indian Leaders, Government etc. on the Reservation and in the Community, in which she lives .. stating that she is indeed a Recognized and Respected Spiritual Leader Sanctioned by them, given Authorization by them in all Spiritual matters, for and by the Community in which she lives ..”

NAFPS: At this point, it would seem a reasonable respectful non racist response would have been to realize it is up to the Lakota Nation to define, select and recognize it's own Spiritual leaders, and a reasonable response would have been for Lekay to contact the Lakota Nation to see if the persons claiming a position of Spiritual authority were supported in these claims by the Lakota Nation. If a few persons who were tribally recognized as authoritative, were found to support these claims, even if this was not completely agreed upon by all tribal authorities, this woman's claims would have at least been respected by NAFPS as “controversial “

HEYOKA: There is nothing racist about this response. This is another example of continuing this delusional thinking. From what I have read in this interview, Looking Back Woman has never once said she is a recognized spiritual leader. Nor does she ever intend to be is or from what I gather, has no interest in Arvol Looking Horse position. Or is seeking spiritual authority over the Lakota peoples. This was a figment of your imagination. This is also propaganda and misinformation that has been used to smear her.


by Journal
Sunday Aug 26th, 2007 6:25 AM
NAFPS: But so far I have not seen any evidence presented of this womans claims being supported by any tribally recognized leaders within the Lakota Nation .

Instead, Lekay has repeatedly attempted to minimize the authority of Arvol Looking Horse, and he has made repeated disrespectful comments about the protection of ceremonies. He has also undermined the credibility of many people who are working to support the protection of ceremonies. As can be seen in the quotes published by Lekay below .

QUOTES.
1) What I do see is a pattern that Al Carroll/educated Indian attacks anyone who seems to not to fit into his compartment of what he believes an authentic medicine man should be. It looks like he took it upon himself to be the new age Tomás de Torquemada. "The hammer of heretics". A part of It appears its based on this Green Grass proclamation Why would anyone want the Bush Cheney administration telling people how to pray. That's bizarre. “

HEYOKA: John LeKay has and cannot minimalise the spiritual authority of Arvol Looking Horse. That like saying he can minimalise the spiritual authority of the Dalai Lama.

This quote was in the context of a an interview and in answer to a question by Thomas Lighting Bolt as to why John LeKay was being targeted by NAPPS. The "Bush Cheney Administration" was a metaphor for the US government. This sentence was also removed the very next day, knowing that this would probably be taken oou of context and twisted and distorted by NAFPS. Which now I see it was. This was only an opinion as to why he thought he was being attacked. Meaning that Looking Back Woman had been critical of this proclamation, and he being the MESSENGER and interviewer was being attacked as the result.

If you really want to address this issue why don't you address the critical opinions of Alfred Bone Shirt, Vivian High Elk and the others. These are the opinions that really matter. Not an outsiders opinion. Please see here.
http://www.dlncoalition.org/dln_issues/pipecommercialized.htm

This is Looking Horses response.
http://mytwobeadsworth.com/ArvolLookinghorsestate707.html

by Journal
Sunday Aug 26th, 2007 6:46 AM
NAFPS Version of John LeLays quote taken out of context: “ I don't follow Arvol Looking Horse all over Europe [childish insult] promoting books and films on who you think is fit or not fit to be a medicine man, or who should give him Eagle Feather's and their canunpas.”

HEYOKA; This was a response taken out of context to Al Carroll saying: "even better would be being honest about your purpose in here as solely an ally or follower of Dupree looking for publicity for her, or possibly cash.

This is the complete sentence, unedited and with out Al Carroll's deceiving (childish) comment in parenthesis.

JL: As far as honesty or following anyone or any one ally; did you not see the U.G. Krishnamurti video. See here. http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.6.PHILOS.UG.Khrishnamurti.htm.

I informed Tachia in the first email that this is my perspective on her post.  Interviewing someone is not being a follower. I don't follow Arvol Looking Horse all over Europe like you do promoting books and films on who you think is fit or not fit to be a medicine man, or who should give him Eagle Feather's and their canunpas.

Did you know how the words "all over" in Al Carrolls version is stated as childish. This is an example of omitting words and deceiving the public.

HEYOKA: Metaphorically meaning this film "Spirits for Sale" The plot being that a Swedish woman finds an eagle feather and ends up giving it to Arvol Looking Horse after being lectured about the exploitation of Lakota ceremonies by Al Carroll and directed to do so. Meaning that Al Carroll is a follower. Also meaning LeKay follows no one including Looking Back Woman or anyone else.

by Journal
Sunday Aug 26th, 2007 7:07 AM

NAFPS: THE TRUTH ABOUT WHAT LEKAY”S AGENDA IS , SHOULD BE OBVIOUS

One of the basic assumptions that frequently gets labeled as White privilege or White supremacist are that the dominant culture has a right to impose it's values on other races and cultures , and that these cultures exist to serve the interests of the dominate culture, even if this is to their own detriment.

WHEN PEOPLE DISREGARD ANOTHER RACES RIGHT TO DEFINE , MANAGE , MAINTAIN AND PROTECT THEIR OWN PHYSICAL OR CULTURAL RESOURCES, OR WHEN PEOPLE DISRESPECT AND IGNORE ANOTHER RACES RIGHT TO SELECT AND EMPOWER THEIR OWN LEADERS, THESE SPECIFIC BEHAVIORS OFTEN GET LABELED AS RACISM . NO MATTER HOW GOOD OR JUSTIFIED PEOPLE WHO ENGAGE IN THESE BEHAVIORS MAY IMAGINE THEY ARE , IN THE OPINION OF MANY INDIGENOUS PEOPLE, THESE BEHAVIORS DO CONTRIBUTE TO GENOCIDE .

HEYOKA: The label of white supremacist applied to John LeKay is like saying black is white and white is back. It is a vile and absolute LIE! Once again Al Carroll owes John LeKay a serious apology.

Interviewing Looking Back Woman and asking her fair objective questions about their life story, her families history, her 15 years of archival research, her father, her canunapa, her opinions and her perspective about her own Lakota people and peoples history is not engaging in racism, WHITE SUPREMECY or attempting to manage another's race or disrespect another persons race and in no possible way can this contribute to genocide. That would be like using the analogy that interviewing an Iranian living outside of Iran about the Ayatollah Khomeini, the spiritual leader of Iran would contribute to genocide of the Iranian peoples.

What this is really about is an attempt at censoring decent or an opinion by labeling anyone that has a difference of opinion to this proclamation is a propagator of genocide and a white supremacist. If that truly was the case, that would also probably mean the majority of the Lakota people and respected elders and medicine men want to kill themselves and are white supremacists. This does not make any sense at all. If every Lakota elder and leader agreed to this proclamation, why is it not already in place. Why all the controversy and difference of opinion? What does it matter what another outsider thinks or says. That would be like saying my opinion or an interview with someone could topple Fidel Castro or the grand Ayatollah Sistani in iraq. This is delusional thinking. GET REAL. WAKE UP!

Your repeated attempts and distorted rational at labeling anyone a white supremacist who does not agree with your ideals, only revels who you really are and what you are about. All this truly indicates is your own racism, bias and attempts at controlling peoples minds, freedom of speech and the press, opinion and points of view. This is not nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia. People have fought and died for us to have this right to express our opinions and points of view, no matter what they are. You have absolutely no right to tell a journalist or any one else what they can think, say or write. Try using your argument with the New York Times when this film comes out and see how far you get.

It is not a face crime to raise an eye brow about this proclamation. It is not a thought crime to disagree with it. I highly doubt for one second that indigenous peoples believe that an outsider having an opinion on their tribal policies is considered genocide. This is more of your twisted and gross exaggeration, repeated distortion and your own faulty thinking and your own dishonest agenda.

Trying to rationalize calling someone a "white supremacist" who obviously is not does not work. Blatant lies do not work. Give it up and apologize for once in your life for your repeated and disgusting libel.

by Journal
Sunday Aug 26th, 2007 8:47 AM

Once again, why would anyone in their right mind who is at all concerned with NAs would label a person doing this work as a white supremacist. Your are beginning to look really peculiar and making a complete mockery of yourself. Do you have any idea how foolish you look?

Take a look at this website. http://www.silkwoodproject.com and more.

Harold One feather. Hunkpapa Lakota. Environmental activist
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.4.ENVIRO.HaroldOneFeather.htm

Charmaine whiteface. Environmental activist. Defenders of the Black Hills.
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.7.ENVIRO.CharmaineWhitetFace.htm

William Under baggage. Lakota. Human rights activist and founder of Indigenous peoples network.
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.4.ENVIRO.WilliamUnderBaggage.htm

Timothy Benally. Navajo. environmental activist.
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.4.ENVIRO.TomothyBenally.htm

Garvard Good Plume. Lakota. human rights activist
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.6.GarvardGoodPlume.Interview.htm

Larry Merculieff. Athabascan environmental activist.
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.7.LarryMerculieff.htm

NON NATIVE PEOPLE WHO HAVE HELPED RAISE AWARENESS ABOUT NATIVE AMERICAN CAUSES

Helen Calidicott. Nobel prize nominee, scientist
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.4.ENVIRO.HelenCaldicott.htm

Doug Brugge. Environmental activist
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.4.ENVIRO.DOUGE%20BRUGGE.htm

Dr Diane Sterns. Scientist.
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.4.ENVIRO.Diane%20Stearns.htm

Peter coyote .Actor. human rights and environmental activist
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.9.PeterCoyote.htm

Adi Roche. Environmental activist
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.9.AdiRoche.1.htm

Remy C. environmental activist
http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.9.RemyC.Letter.htm

by Just open your eyes
Sunday Aug 26th, 2007 12:43 PM
One of the things that keeps jumping out at me, is that although this is discussion is primarily about broad based social policies, and the long term health of American Indian peoples, the vast majority of the concerns expressed by John Lekay, or his representatives, is all about

!!!! John Lekay !!!!! .

This s is NOT all about him , and in fact, I am still not sure why he thinks it has anything to do with him at all .

white supremacist definition
n.
“One who believes that white people are racially superior to others and should therefore dominate society.”

I have heard that the assumption of a connection between skin color, and social position, began in European feudal societies, where the servants worked in the fields in the sun, and the dominant class was paler in skin tone, because they did not have to work in the fields. In other words, the assumption of a "higher class of people" having a right to dominate a " lower class of people", probably preceded the association of skin color with a persons social position. Though skin color has become strongly linked to presumptions of a persons social class, this assumption of the right to dominate, is probably closer to the root of the various behaviors commonly referred to as "White Supremacy" and "White Privilege", than actual skin color .

How "White" people are defined, and which racial groups are denied a right to power is variable.

http://www.answers.com/topic/white-supremacy

"Those who follow the ideology of Nordicism and Germanicism only consider Northern European people who are Nordic or Germanic (and often Celtic) to be white, shunning Southern and Eastern Europe along with anyone whose ethnic heritage is not European."

"Pan Europeanism accepts all native and original European peoples, ranging from fair skinned Swedes, Britons and Germans to darker complexioned Italians, Spaniards, Portuguese, and Greeks."

"Another variant, Pan Aryanism, accepts native Europeans from all of continental Europe and extends its acceptance to non-European Caucasoids, such as some Middle Easterners, North Africans, and Central/West Asians. Yet this is usually on an individual basis and not all people from these regions are accepted by Pan-Aryanists as white."

I think the main common denominator, in "White Supremacist" behavior, is the assumption one European racial or cultural group, or their interests, has some kind of cultural or moral superiority that gives them the right to dominate another racial or cultural group .

For example; the people who were involved in removing American Indian children from their families and sending them to boarding and residential schools, were very much acting out of a assumption of cultural superiority and the right to dominate .

"White Supremacist" is a term that gets used to describe these assumptions, but the people who created and ran these schools were not particularity antisemitic, and even went to war against Nazism. These people were not even necessarily believers in racial segregation, as the stated purpose of these schools was to "help" American Indians assimilate themselves into non native culture.

It is a common complaint that tribal governments, despite being run by Indians, are nothing more than puppets, and controlled by of non native interests.

So it is not necessary to share every belief of every group that ever had "White Supremacist" beliefs, in order to act out or support particular "White Supremacist " beliefs.

The bottom line, as I see it, is, the behavior that gets labeled "White Supremacist " and "White Privilege", is the belief that whoever is defined as having "white" European values and social organization, has the right to dominate, and the dominated culture is expected to serve the interests of the dominator.

http://www.cwsworkshop.org/pdfs/WIWP2/4Underst_White_Priv.PDF

"OFTEN IT IS NOT OUR INTENT AS INDIVIDUAL WHITE PEOPLE TO MAKE USE OF THE UNEARNED
BENEFITS WE HAVE RECEIVED ON THE BASIS OF OUR SKIN COLOR. MOST OF US GO THROUGH OUR DAYS UNAWARE THAT WE ARE WHITE, OR THAT IT MATTERS . ON THE OTHER HAND THE CREATION OF A SYSTEM IN WHICH RACE PLAYS A CENTRAL PART, ONE THAT CODIFIES THE SUPERIORITY OF THE WHITE RACE OVER ALL OTHERS, HAS BEEN IN NO WAY ACCIDENTAL OR HAPHAZARD. THROUGHOUT AMERICAN HISTORY WHITE POWER HOLDERS ACTING ON BEHALF OF OUR ENTIRE RACE HAVE MADE DECISIONS THAT HAVE AFFECTED WHITE PEOPLE AS GROUP VERY DIFFERENTLY THAN GROUPS OF PEOPLE OF COLOR. HISTORY IS FILLED WITH EXAMPLES OF THE PURPOSEFUL CONSTRUCTION OF SYSTEMIC STRUCTURE, THAT GRANTS PRIVILEGES TO WHITE PEOPLE AND WITHHOLDS THEM FROM OTHERS"

"WHITE PEOPLES BELIEVING THAT OUR DESTINY WAS TO OWN THE LAND ON WHICH WE ALL CURRENTLY LIVE EVEN THOUGH THAT REQUIRED FORCIBLY REMOVING THE NATIVE PEOPLE WHO HAD LIVED HERE FOR CENTURIES"

"THE REMOVING OF AMERICAN INDIAN CHILDREN FROM THEIR HOMES TAKING THEM AS FAR AS POSSIBLE FROM ANYTHING THEY KNEW AND PUNISHING THEM IF THEY TRIED TO SPEAK IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGES"

"IT IS IMPORTANT TO KNOW AND REMEMBER THIS SIDE OF AMERICAN HISTORY EVEN THOUGH IT MAKES US EXTREMELY UNCOMFORTABLE. FOR ME THE CONFUSION AND PAIN OF THIS KNOWLEDGE IS SOMEWHAT EASED BY REMINDING MYSELF THAT THIS SYSTEM IS NOT BASED ON EACH INDIVIDUAL WHITE PERSONS INTENTION TO HARM, BUT ON OUR RACIAL GROUPS DETERMINATION TO PRESERVE WHAT WE BELIEVE IS RIGHTLY OURS. THIS DISTINCTION IS ON ONE HAND IMPORTANT, AND ON THE OTHER HAND NOT IMPORTANT AT ALL, BECAUSE REGARDLESS OF OUR PERSONAL INTENT, THE IMPACT IS THE SAME."


"WHITE PRIVILEGE IS THE ABILITY TO MAKE DECISIONS THAT AFFECT EVERYONE WITHOUT TAKING OTHERS INTO ACCOUNT. THIS OCCURS AT EVERY LEVEL FROM INTERNATIONAL TO INDIVIDUAL. "


"BEING WHITE ENABLES ME TO DECIDE WHETHER AM GOING TO LISTEN TO OTHERS TO HEAR THEM OR NEITHER. AS ONE OF THOSE IN WHAT LISA DELPIT CALLS THE CULTURE OF POWER, ALSO SILENCEs OTHERS WITHOUT INTENDING TO OR EVEN BEING AWARE OF IT."

"WHEN YOU'RE TALKING TO WHITE PEOPLE, THEY STILL WANT IT TO BE THEIR WAY, YOU CAN TRY TO TALK TO THEM AND GIVE THEM EXAMPLES, BUT THEY'RE SO HEADSTRONG THEY THINK THEY KNOW WHATS BEST FOR EVERYBODY FOR EVERYBODY'S CHILDREN THEY WONT LISTEN. WHITE FOLKS ARE GOING TO DO WHAT THEY WANT TO DO ANYWAY ITS REALLY HARD. THEY JUST DON'T LISTEN. WELL NO THEY LISTEN BUT THEY DON'T HEAR YOU ."

"WHITE PRIVILEGE ALLOWS US NOT TO SEE RACE IN OURSELVES AND TO BE ANGRY AT THOSE WHO DO."

"AS WHITE PEOPLE WE HAVE THE PRIVILEGE AND ABILITY TO DISCOUNT THE WORTH OF AN INDIVIDUAL OF COLOR, HER OR HIS COMMENTS, AND BEHAVIOR, AND TO ALTER HER OR HIS FUTURE BASED ON OUR ASSESSMENTS. ONE OF THE MOST FRIGHTENING ASPECTS OF THIS PRIVILEGE IS THAT WE ARE ABLE TO DO ENORMOUS DAMAGE ..."

"SEEING THOSE MOST AFFECTED BY RACISM AS WOUNDED OR VICTIMS, AND SOMEHOW THEN AS DEFECTIVE, IDENTIFYING A MEMBER OF AN OPPRESSED GROUP AS WOUNDED IS PATRONIZING, PARTICULARLY WHEN DONE BY SOMEONE WITH PRIVILEGE."

"MISHEARING THE COMMENTS OF PEOPLE OF COLOR SO THAT THEIR WORDS ARE LESS IMPORTANT, NOT UNDERSTOOD, OR FULLY APPRECIATED, AND THEREBY HEIGHTENING OUR SENSE OF SUPERIORITY. REPHRASING OR TRANSLATING FOR OTHERS AS IF THEY CANNOT SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES WITHOUT APPEARING RUDE TO OTHERS LIKE US."

"BEING ALLOWED BY OTHERS LIKE US TO TAKE UP MOST OF THE AIRTIME WITHOUT SAYING MUCH OF SUBSTANCE."

"ASKING WHY PEOPLE OF COLOR ALWAYS FOCUS ON THE NEGATIVE AS IF LIFE CAN'T BE THAT BAD. SIMILAR WAY OF DISCOUNTING SOMEONES EXPERIENCE, IS TO SAY YOU ALWAYS FOCUS ON RACE."

"SEEING AND KEEPING OURSELVES CENTRAL NEVER MARGINAL."

"WE USE OUR WHITE PRIVILEGE TO DEFINE THE PARAMETERS OF APPROPRIATE CONVERSATION AND COMMUNICATION, KEEPING OUR CULTURE MANNERS AND LANGUAGE CENTRAL."

"CREATING INSTITUTIONS THAT RUN BY OUR CULTURES RULES, BUT ACTING AS IF THE RULES ARE UNIVERSALLY HELD .... ."

"WE ARE ABLE TO GROW UP WITHOUT OUR RACIAL SUPREMACY'S BEING QUESTIONED IT IS SO TAKEN FOR GRANTED. SUCH FOUNDATION OF ALL THAT WE KNOW THAT WE ARE ABLE TO BE UNCONSCIOUS OF IT, EVEN THOUGH IT PERMEATES EVERY ASPECT OF OUR LIVES."

"WE HAVE THE PRIVILEGE OF BEING ABLE TO DETERMINE INCLUSION OR EXCLUSION OF OURSELVES AND OTHERS IN GROUP."
by Tom Cook
Sunday Aug 26th, 2007 3:11 PM
Mala Spotted Eagle, Red Elk, Sequoya Trueblood, John Martin ...

HOW MANY MISTAKES DOES IT TAKE??????


Open Letter to John LeKay:

What seems to have come to light here Mr. LeKay is that you have allowed yourself, either willingly or unknowingly, to be a one-man disinformation machine, It’s no accident that all the “elders” you freely chose to interview were trying to sell the Nazi occult as authentic American Indian Spiritual practice. It’s statistically impossible for you to have only selected people to interview from the ranks of anti-NDN propagandists posing as experts. There was something very off in your judgment. It is well known in Indian country that John Martin has been the favorite “expert” of anti-Looking Horse/Pro twinkie obsessives, yet you made no effort to research this or consult those in authority who could have cautioned you not to listen to his irrational words. While I’m not sure what motivates him, but he is generally considered a self-hating crack pot by the majority of his own Lakota people.

Mr. LeKay, you have done a disservice to your readers by allowing your magazine to be used as a platform for Martin and Lavalle’s reprehensible defense of those who exploit American Indian spiritual practices for profit. Removing a few articles is not enough. You need to make amends for your irresponsible journalism, not be merely removing the offensive articles, but by keeping a statement on his publication admitting to your many errors in judgment and stating what you will do in the future to assure that you are not bamboozled by other phony experts pretending to represent the Lakota people or other Indigenous peoples. Too often people who produce media that offend us think they can merely remove a few of the most offensive items and go on to make the same errors in judgment over and over and over again. This reflects the Colonial mindset and it is not acceptable. Mr. LeKay, I challenge you to come clean and be completely honest with yourself about how you could have so carelessly included the reckless and highly inaccurate words of so many questionable individuals in your publication. American Indians are forgiving people, but only towards those who have done a lot of courageous and honest self examination. You have a lot of work to do Mr. LeKay.

We are very fortunate that groups like NAFPS are active in refuting anti-NDN propaganda disguised as news and environmental advocacy. Stop trying to take away their rights to free speech on the internet and examine your many, many shortcomings!


Sincerely,

Thomas Cook
Native American Institute for Promoting Diversity
Sicangu Lakota (Rosebud Sioux)
by Journal
Sunday Aug 26th, 2007 3:30 PM
"One of the things that keeps jumping out at me, is that although this is discussion is primarily about broad based social policies, and the long term health of American Indian peoples, the vast majority of the concerns expressed by John Lekay, or his representatives, is all about !!!! John Lekay !!!!! . This s is NOT all about him , and in fact, I am still not sure why he thinks it has anything to do with him at all"

Then if that is the case, then what is this about Moma Porcupine? This doesn't not look like any broad base social issues to me.

A} "LeKay knew exactly what he was doing when he included all those Wally Black Elk clones in little jihad against common sense. It reveals a deep white supremacist tendency in gullible white folks like LeKay that needs really needs to be exposed."

B) These people aren’t harmless. They are trying to erase true indigenous belief systems and replace them with a new ideology that is as oppressive as Christian capitalism and that is based in ideas of white superiority. So if you connect the dots, there’s a very good reason why Martin and Yeagly and other white supremacists held such a place of honor in Heyoka magazine.

C) "Lekay has also contacted many people by e-mail, trying to obtain their support, which failed miserably. The only support he found was from a notorious white supremacist posing as part Comanche, David Yeagley, and one of his leading supporters, a violent racist named John Martin

D) "Lekay and his ilk are despicable racist pieces of slime"

E) His argumentative style reminds me of the neo-cons. Like Fox News.

F) The adjective "Jewish" used as a perjoritive. LeKay's does indeed to appear to be anti-semetic

G) Get your facts straignt pale face! You are NOT even quoting Al Caroll, dumbass.

H} You aren't foolin anyone whiteeyez. but we know there's just a big fat white loser at the other sittin in front of the terminal fumin because he tried to play ndn and some skin saw through his bullshit

I) Heyoka is an offensive publication that exists to promote the economic interests of people pretending to be native american. It only contributes to the destruction of native american spiritual beliefs and is therefore racist

K) John LeKay has an agenda to promote several very unscrupulous individuals who promote New Age theories, German mysticism and philosophies which are closer to the Nazi occult than to any genuine indigenous spiritual philosophies.

L) Lekay and the quack pack go on racist tirades worthy of Michael Richards. The lesson to be learned her is that this is what inevitably happens to soulless Euros who follow the Nazi belief that one must return to religion of his ancestors and worship of primal laws of nature.

M) Lekay is an ignorant, paranoid, and dangerous man who stated publicly he believed American Indians still live in tipis.

N) English New Age racist, John Lekay, editor of Heyoka Magazine

O ) See this http://www.geocities.com/aaaaaayyyyy/ Creating the "master race".

P} "The behavior often referred to as White Supremacist, or White Privilege, usually seems to be rooted in an unconscious assumption of entitlement and cultural superiority. One of the basic assumptions that frequently gets labeled as White Privilege or White Supremacist seems to be that the dominant culture has a right to impose it's values on other races and cultures, and that these cultures need to serve the interests of the dominate culture, even if this is to their own detriment.

When people disregard another races right to define, manage, maintain and protect their own physical, or cultural resources, or when people disregard another races right to select and empower their own leaders, these specific behaviors often get labeled as “racist “.

According to the link you just provided it states.

1) The key group representing white supremacy was the Ku Klux Klan. Founded in Pulaski, Tennessee, in 1866 by Confederate colonel Nathan Bedford Forrest, its aim was to preserve the traditions of the Old South, which for the Klan focused primarily around the suppression of African Americans and the protection of white women. In its evolution during the early twentieth century, the Klan came to stand for "100 percent pure Americanism

2) A full generation after the successes of the civil rights movement, many white Americans exhibit an increased tolerance of African Americans and a growing acceptance of racial equality. Nonetheless, the ethic of white supremacy is still very strong among some white Americans, namely those belonging or sympathetic to groups formed in the late twentieth century such as Posse Comitatus, the National Association for the Advancement of White People, the American Nazi Party, Aryan Nations, and World Church of the Creator. These groups have tried to recruit young people and have numerous sites on the Internet. They can be violent physically, with most of their attacks directed toward blacks, Jews, and immigrants. Their main goal is to return the nation to white people, root out what they see as a conspiracy between blacks and Jews to eliminate the white race, and regain pride and power for whites.

This "white supremacist" word is a very dangerous, destructive and a highly charged label, especially in New York City. Many europen people have relatives that were murdered by the Nazis and do not appreciate being called one of these white supremacist depraved murderers. There is no excuse for using this label, so don't even try to rationalize it, it its like trying to rationalize calling an African American the "N" word.

If you would have just used "white privilege" that would have been a different matter. But in the context of this inflamed debate, where nazi and white supremacists and charges of racism have repeatedly been made. That's like pouring an oil rig of gasoline on this fire.

If you did not like the Looking Back Woman interview or her controversial views then simply say so. State your reasons why with out all these labels. If you feel libel was made in this interview, please state your case.


by In my right mind
Sunday Aug 26th, 2007 4:37 PM
I am in my right mind and I can see that these articles are just window dressing.

After the last retraction, it should be clear to anyone with two or more brain cells that
John Lekay has been completely blinded by white privillege

LeKay is using legitimate causes and legitimate ppl as beards to disguise a much more sinister agenda -- pandering to new age capitalism and new age syncretism.

It doesn't matter how many links you post.
I've seen them.
I've read them
and I'm not fooled.
Deal with it.

Do you think if you keep repeating yourself, that anyone will agree with you?
This is just childish.

Anyone without an economic agenda can see that's why this new age white shamanism is dangerous for native spirituality. It hides behind good intentions and claims about protecting the environment when it really isn't about that at all. The new age is a totally co-opted pro-capitalist movement that actively promotes the prosperity of whites who steal, pervert, twist and appropriate native american cultual artifacts. The new age is the ultimate assertion of white privillege. LeKay is all about the new age. He isn't man enough to admit he's been fooled.

If you want to save the environment, save the environment!

Circulate petitions, get out on the streets and protest, write to you elected officials and demand legislation that does something to limit the actions of the large corporations responsible for the pollution.

Telling big lies about indigenous spiritual beliefs will have no effect on the environment. It only POLLUTES the internet environment and makes it impossible for our native youth to find accurate information about their heritage because the internet is dominated by bullshit about us placed there by white nuagers and naive fools who have lost contact with their tribes like Lekay LaValle and Lighting bolt.

LeKay's magazine doesn't give the reader any practicle information about how to address issues of white privillege. It promotes the idea that the white reader is entitled to sample all the lovely exotic tastes of all the indigenous people who are silent, passive spiritual servants to any white person who needs to feel spiritual. When you treat our religions like spiritual ethnic take-out you objectify us! Objectification is the tool that those who enjoy white privillege use to silence anyone who might make them take a close look at themselves.

The idea that we should be forced to share all our spritual secrets with whites through coercion, lawsuits or even force, is an assertion of white privillege! It amounts to spiritual manifest destiny. Just give up your most intimate beliefs because we're destined to take them anyway ey?

LeKay and all those he has interviewed promote the racist stereotype of indigenous people as environmental messiahs who's only purpose on this earth is to save the environment for the white people. You can't get much more racist than that!

It's an act of white privillege to constantly think you can define reality for non Whites
to constantly say this is a libel and that is a libel and I'm going to sue you is an act of white privillege - and by the way not even grammatically correct!

It's an act of white privillege to use mentally unbalanced people as pawns to call your political opponents horrible names. It's an act of white privillege to hide behind a sick mind and use him to label your (nonWhite) opponent as a racist. It's an act of white privllege to stubornly refuse to admit that this is what you're doing.

It is an act of white privillege in itself to think that its o.k. for white people to post "specimins" of wonderfully exotic indigenous people working to do things to save the earth for the white people in a way that's not threatenig to the white people who benefit from corporate pollution.

LeKay never interviewed indigenous people who actually do environmental work. He just copies and pastes articles written by other journalissts. He never let these people be anything but pretty objects in his specimine collection.

Insisting that only white people can define what is racist is an act of white privillege.

Insisting on blood quantum proof before you listen to critics is an act of white privillege.

The U.S. got the idea of blood quantum from the Nazis, that's why new agers like it so much. They all spend hundreds of dollars to get their DNA tested so they can show up at pow wows and claim to be an elder. That concept comes right from the third reich's ministry of hygiene. Native people never had a concept of race before the US government imposed it on us. It was all about cultural knowledge, shared LANGUAGE, shared customed and kinship.

Anyone who is interested in confronting their white privillege would not USE and EXPLOIT Indigenous people to promote their view point. Putting up pictures of native people is not the same thing as treating native people as fully human and actually asking them what their issues are and what they think about those issues.

Where are all the interviews of WHITE people doing environmental work?

Where are all the articles exposing how WHITE people benefit from the acts corporate polluters?

Where are all the articles telling white people to stop doing things that destroy the environment? to stop working for corporations that destroy the environment, to boycot products produced by those corporate polluters?
It's mostly white people who work in middle management and who make the decisions that lead to the devastation of the environment, why don't we hear anything about that?

LeKay's magazine exists to make white people working for these corporations feel better about it by promising them that there are all these spiritual native mascots out there working to save the environment for them through prayer. It lets them continue to cash those paychecks and drive those SUVs to the weekend white-shaman vision quest of sweat lodge. It alleviates white guilt about enjoying white privillege but it doesn't do shit to stop environmantal racism on the rez.

It's clear to everyone that he put up Heyoka to make white liberals feel good about themselves. Then he interviewed a bunch of people who act as if culture appropriation is their birthright (which it has been) and people whe clearly aren’t really interested in OUR healing from the perversion of our spiritual practices.

Lekay is not one bit concerned about the damage and violence done to US by the cultural appropriation he promotes. He's still pretending not to recognize that white shamanism is cultural thievery.

These Left-Right white folks who are LeKay's target audience aren’t interested in ending racism/white supremacy - if it means having to give up trendy vision quest weekends, or being able to drop their Indian name or their participation in a sweat lodge at cocktail parties , or their white privilege. As long as its painless, costless and seamless, these white folks are all for social change. If they were actually interested in our liberation as native people, they’d be riveted on understanding the affect of racism/white supremacy on non-white people, instead of leaping, IMMEDIATELY, to what THEY will lose and how we are simplemindedly taking it away from them. This is pure selfish entitlement.

Everyone who went over to NAFPS and caused trouble was acting out of pure selfish entitlement - deeply embedded racism or internalized racism and a need to protect white privellege.


Why did LeKay have to use indigenous ppl as his mascots in the first place? Why is it so important to use us as decorateive objects?

The use of the title Heyoka is offensive, yet LeKay won't examine his Colonial privillege in stealing this cultural property and using it for his own purposes - that's an exercise in white privillege!


When are you going to realize that you aren't kidding anyone?

People in their right minds will never be fooled by window dressing!

Native ppl aren't the simple minded children that you seem to think would be fooled by such obvious tactics.

If this makes you angry, then you've got some white privillege to unpack!

Instead of wasting my time with your senseless arguments, I think yoyu should spend the next 6 months in quiet contemplation of your life -- reading these links and figuring out how you can unpack YOUR Colonial privilleges!


"The process is ultimately intended to supplant Indians, even in areas of their own customs and spirituality. In the end, non-Indians will have complete power to define what is and is not Indian, even for Indians. When this happens, the last vestiges of real Indian society and Indian rights will disappear. Non-Indians will then "own" our heritage and ideas as thoroughly as they now claim to own our land and resources." --Russell Means (Lakota)



White Privillege.com
http://www.whiteprivilege.com/

Why white privilege shouldn’t wear dreads
http://angrywhitekid.blogs.com/weblog/2005/06/white_people_an.html

blind privilege.com
http://blindprivilege.com/abusing-the-privilege-system/


Monkey Fist Collective Justice Entails Ending White Privilege by Kendall Clark
http://monkeyfist.com/articles/841


White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack A thought provoking article by Peggy McIntosh
"I was taught to see racism only in individual acts of meanness, not in invisible systems conferring dominance on my group"
http://www.coaauw.org/boulder/2003/Program-WhitePrivilege.html


White Privlege Shapes the U.S. by Robert Jensen
http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~rjensen/freelance/whiteprivilege.htm

Here's What White Privelege Sounds Like by Robert Jensen

Diversity Verses White Privilege an Interview with Christine Sleeter

Confronting White Privilege by Dale Weiss
http://www.rethinkingschools.org/archive/16_04/Conf164.shtml

Media Awareness Network Whiteness and White Privilege in the Media: Introduction by Richard Dyer
http://www.media-awareness.ca/english/issues/stereotyping/whiteness_and_privilege/index.cfm


Language of Closet Racism: An Illustration by Paul Gorski
http://www.edchange.org/multicultural/papers/langofracism2.html


Who Invented White People? A Talk on the Occasion of Martin Luther King, Jr. Day, 1998 by Gregory Jay
http://www.uwm.edu/~gjay/Whiteness/Whitenesstalk.html

White Like Me by Ellen Barry
http://72.166.46.24//alt1/archive/styles/97/07/10/WHITE_LIKE_ME.html

Vision, Privilege and the Limits of Tolerance by Chris Cullinan
http://www.eastern.edu/publications/emme/1999spring/cullinan.html

Teaching About Whiteness by Prof. Gregory Jay
http://www.uwm.edu/~gjay/Whiteness/Teachwhiteness.html

White Privilege Check List
http://www.unh.edu/residential-life/diversity/aw_article17.pdf

Understanding Whiteness, Recognizing Privilege A Conference Towards Racial Justice.
http://whiteprivilege.hampshire.edu/2002conference/index.html

Color Blinded by Whiteness by Ray Hartmann
http://academic.udayton.edu/race/04needs/colorbli.htm


Hypatia: What Should White People Do?
Whiteness Studies: Deconstructing the White Race
http://iupjournals.org/hypatia/hyp13-3.html

White Dreads and Cultural Appropriation
http://community.livejournal.com/debunkingwhite/138072.html


STOP THE EXCUSES!


DO THE WORK!


THE FIRST STEP IS ADMITTING YOU HAVE A PRIVILLEG!


Common Racist Attitudes and Behaviors
by Da LeKKKaY XPoSerZ
Sunday Aug 26th, 2007 4:53 PM
You know there's a real easy solution here,

If you don't want to be called a white supremacist then stop promoting their spokespeople and their religious beliefs.

There's been more than sufficient documentation that Heyoka magazine has a white supremacist slant.

If you didn't realize it, then fix it and go on with your life.
If you did realize it, then admit you've been exposed.

The discussion seems have deteriorated into who has the right to define what is white supremacism - The white supremacists themselves or those who are made to suffer from it.

I always side with the people who are oppressed rather than the oppressors.

If you are really this concerned, why not post a disclaimer on the site?

Someone has gone all over the internet posting Martin's comments about this, so removing them is not even a band aid solution. Without a formal retraction, it lwill look to the casual observer like you endorse Martin's statements and Red Elk and Sequoya Trueblood's bizarre UFO theories. Journalistic integrity would call for some proactive behavior and some clarification.

If you really object to white supremacy and if you really want to combat it rather than sell it in "Native American" sheep's clothing, then why not state so more explicitly.

Everyone makes mistakes, but refusing to admit it makes you look bad.
You're refusal to admit that you've been wrong on so many things will eventually be your downfall.


If the white sheet fits, wear it!
by John LeKay
Sunday Aug 26th, 2007 6:01 PM
Dear Mr Cook,

Thank you for your letter how ever I find your insinuations and your reference to the nazi occult deeply offensive and extremely prejudiced. I find it equally disturbing that you would also refer to these 3 men listed below as dabblers in the Nazi occult and suggest you apologize to each and everyone of them.

Peter V Catches (Zintkala Oyate) is Keeper of the Spotted Eagle Way of Lakota medicine, its oral history, sacred rites, and experiential teachings.

Peter has conducted the Spotted Eagle Sun Dance at his home on the Pine Ridge Reservation in South Dakota for 30 consecutive years. The longest running in Lakota country.  He is the descendant of 37 generations of medicine men.  His family name, Catches-the-Enemy, was shortened a few generations ago.   
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.6.MEDICINE.PeteCatches.htm

James (Jim) Medicine Tree is both a spiritual adviser for, and a voting council member of, the “Keepers of the Sacred Tradition of Pipemakers" of Pipestone, Minnesota. He is on the advisory board for the E.T.Seton Institute (Black Wolf) of Santa Fe, New Mexico as well as a respected stone sculptor and Pipe carver.

 His Elders of influence are Adam Fortunate Eagle, spiritual leader of the “Keepers”, the late Lilly Windrider Nevarez, member of the Cherokee Medicine Society, M. Running Deer, Apache spiritual leader http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.6.PIPE.JimMedicineTree.htm
Bud Johnston " Ojibewa"
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.6.BudJOHNSTON.htm

Bud Johnston current President was elected Keepers President in 1996.  Bud is a storyteller, a teacher, an artist and an elder.  Bud began quarrying and carving pipestone about 1985 after he was transferred to Sioux Falls, South Dakota and realized how close he was to the Quarries.

As far as John Martin is concerned, he is just one in many people of who you refer to as the "Anti Looking Horse brigade".

http://www.dlncoalition.org/dln_issues/pipecommercialized.htm

http://www.dlncoalition.org/dln_issues/selling_indian_culture.htm#articles

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1296.0

As far as statistics are concerned,

1. Mala Spotted Eagles is the son of Rolling Thunder and his mother was native American Indian.. Until I see evidence that these allegations are true. I take it with a grain of salt.

2. If you are referring To Red Elk and his eccentric views, I hear you loud and clear, but have seen no evidence that he has sold ceremony and know he has more Indian Blood than Al Carroll and his multiple personalities. I have seen false claims that he is associated with man called Harley Reagan which is also not true.

3. Sequoh True Blood was just a video on the environment. Not medicine. If you cant see the diference thats your fault not mine.

4. I will refrain from discussing Looking Back Woman for obvious reasons because that would mean disusing Looking Horse and all the allegations.

5. As far as John Martin is concerned, he was never given a platform . A thread of his from NAFPS was included briefly only because it revealed Al Carroll was lying in claiming I was Steve W.

6. As far as La Valle defense. I highly commend him for his bravery and standing up to group and a venomous coward, libelist, gossip and racist. I think he is a man of deep wisdom, spirituality, integrity and authenticity that puts that entire group to shame. Not one of them is equal to a single hair on his head.

As far as your opinion as what you believe is a disservice, you are entitled to your opinion. As far as making amends. I already have. Who needs to make serious amends is NAFPS for all their libel and racism.

What you need to do is to stop telling me what you think I should do and take a serious look at this libelous group that you support and make amends for this support and admit serious errors in your own judgment .

I also challenge you to come clean and take a good hard and deep look at your self and your real motivations and stop playing these transparent games that I can stop for a mile away. I am also a forgiving person and will forgive your insinuations of nazi sympathizing and if you show true courage and honesty with your intentions in writing me this letter.

I can see that you have a lot of work to do on your self and I sincerely wish you the best and one day find the good red road of your people.

As far as NAFPS is concerned, I feel they have only damaged the Lakota people more than you can ever imagine and will continue to do so in the very near future.

As along with Jerry from the Cherokee people, I sincerely wait your humble apology.

Kind regards,

John LeKay
by John LeKay
Sunday Aug 26th, 2007 6:01 PM
Dear Mr Cook,

Thank you for your letter how ever I find your insinuations and your reference to the nazi occult deeply offensive and extremely prejudiced. I find it equally disturbing that you would also refer to these 3 men listed below as dabblers in the Nazi occult and suggest you apologize to each and everyone of them.

Peter V Catches (Zintkala Oyate) is Keeper of the Spotted Eagle Way of Lakota medicine, its oral history, sacred rites, and experiential teachings.

Peter has conducted the Spotted Eagle Sun Dance at his home on the Pine Ridge Reservation in South Dakota for 30 consecutive years. The longest running in Lakota country.  He is the descendant of 37 generations of medicine men.  His family name, Catches-the-Enemy, was shortened a few generations ago.   
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.6.MEDICINE.PeteCatches.htm

James (Jim) Medicine Tree is both a spiritual adviser for, and a voting council member of, the “Keepers of the Sacred Tradition of Pipemakers" of Pipestone, Minnesota. He is on the advisory board for the E.T.Seton Institute (Black Wolf) of Santa Fe, New Mexico as well as a respected stone sculptor and Pipe carver.

 His Elders of influence are Adam Fortunate Eagle, spiritual leader of the “Keepers”, the late Lilly Windrider Nevarez, member of the Cherokee Medicine Society, M. Running Deer, Apache spiritual leader http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.6.PIPE.JimMedicineTree.htm
Bud Johnston " Ojibewa"
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.6.BudJOHNSTON.htm

Bud Johnston current President was elected Keepers President in 1996.  Bud is a storyteller, a teacher, an artist and an elder.  Bud began quarrying and carving pipestone about 1985 after he was transferred to Sioux Falls, South Dakota and realized how close he was to the Quarries.

As far as John Martin is concerned, he is just one in many people of who you refer to as the "Anti Looking Horse brigade".

http://www.dlncoalition.org/dln_issues/pipecommercialized.htm

http://www.dlncoalition.org/dln_issues/selling_indian_culture.htm#articles

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1296.0

As far as statistics are concerned,

1. Mala Spotted Eagles is the son of Rolling Thunder and his mother was native American Indian.. Until I see evidence that these allegations are true. I take it with a grain of salt.

2. If you are referring To Red Elk and his eccentric views, I hear you loud and clear, but have seen no evidence that he has sold ceremony and know he has more Indian Blood than Al Carroll and his multiple personalities. I have seen false claims that he is associated with man called Harley Reagan which is also not true.

3. Sequoh True Blood was just a video on the environment. Not medicine. If you cant see the diference thats your fault not mine.

4. I will refrain from discussing Looking Back Woman for obvious reasons because that would mean disusing Looking Horse and all the allegations.

5. As far as John Martin is concerned, he was never given a platform . A thread of his from NAFPS was included briefly only because it revealed Al Carroll was lying in claiming I was Steve W.

6. As far as La Valle defense. I highly commend him for his bravery and standing up to group and a venomous coward, libelist, gossip and racist. I think he is a man of deep wisdom, spirituality, integrity and authenticity that puts that entire group to shame. Not one of them is equal to a single hair on his head.

As far as your opinion as what you believe is a disservice, you are entitled to your opinion. As far as making amends. I already have. Who needs to make serious amends is NAFPS for all their libel and racism.

What you need to do is to stop telling me what you think I should do and take a serious look at this libelous group that you support and make amends for this support and admit serious errors in your own judgment .

I also challenge you to come clean and take a good hard and deep look at your self and your real motivations and stop playing these transparent games that I can stop for a mile away. I am also a forgiving person and will forgive your insinuations of nazi sympathizing and if you show true courage and honesty with your intentions in writing me this letter.

I can see that you have a lot of work to do on your self and I sincerely wish you the best and one day find the good red road of your people.

As far as NAFPS is concerned, I feel they have only damaged the Lakota people more than you can ever imagine and will continue to do so in the very near future.

As along with Jerry from the Cherokee people, I sincerely wait your humble apology.

Kind regards,

John LeKay
by Dr Marlon
Sunday Aug 26th, 2007 6:19 PM

I can not help what people post all over the internet including John Martin or Al Carroll.

As far as people referring to me like your self as a "white supremacist" cant stop that either.

That's your prerogative and freedom of expresion.
by Dr Marlon
Sunday Aug 26th, 2007 6:34 PM
"Instead of wasting my time with your senseless arguments, I think yoyu should spend the next 6 months in quiet contemplation of your life -- reading these links and figuring out how you can unpack YOUR Colonial privilleges! '

I think you should spend the next 6 years in a cave and ask Al Carroll to join you in an orgy of deep internal reflection and mental white supremacist masturbation while asking for my forgiveness for you and your deeply boring racism . Look up the word cliché in a dictionary.

I would not waste a second of my time looking at any of your links and did not even bother reading more than a quarter of your post.

Snore Snore Snore Snore Snore.
by "white supremist" film ?
Sunday Aug 26th, 2007 8:03 PM
I thought that Mr. LeKay, during this debate had already pointed out what this controversy is about, controversy to which he is merely an outsider:

"If you really want to address this issue why don't you address the critical opinions of Alfred Bone Shirt, Vivian High Elk and the others. These are the opinions that really matter. Not an outsiders opinion. Please see here".


"This is Looking Horses response".



In the middle of this controversy is Annika Banfield's film "Spirits for Sale"?

Are these new attacks on Mr LeKay calling him a "white supremist" a projection? Or an attempt to deflect the issue from the filmmaker's own country's colonial history and treatment of the Natives so that these would go unnoticed?

"white supremacist definition
n.
“One who believes that white people are racially superior to others and should therefore dominate society.”

To Steve w's question as to " how come you europeans are into indian culture and stuff? "

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1119.0

Annika Banfield's, Freija's answer was:

"Hi Steve, we will start the distribution of the film this fall, so don´t know yet where it will be screened. (Apart from in a cinema here in Sweden on the 10th October and 13th October - the ticketsale is great!!)

"As for why Europeans are in to NA ceremonies - I think it has been discussed so many times in here. They find it "exotic", they have bought in to all the lies and fantasies, many are spiritual bankrupt....and lots of other reasons".


To buy Al Carroll/Annika Banfield books go to:
http://www.bcbooks.se/Buffelkvinnan.htm

The online translation service (which is not altogether reliable) provides this translation:


NEWS!!
Uppföljaren to “they call us Indians”
(Uppföljaren (följa=follow, uppfölja=followup) to the book: "They call us indians").
N.B.! All profit from the booklet back to poor Lakota Indians
READ ABOUT LAKOTA (SIOUX) THE INDIANS AND ABOUT THE PRODUCTION OF THE DOCUMENTARY “SPIRITS TRAVELED SALE”
the summer 2006 travels Annika Banfield along with the film-maker Folke Johansson to USA in order to convert a documentary the Indians' struggle in order to preserve its spiritual traditions. The production for her fairly in in the core of the traditional Lakota (Sioux) the Indians, right to until their spiritual conductors Chief Arvol Looking Horse - 19: e the generation's owner of the white Buffelkalvens hole. The meeting became revolutionary of many reasons. The book is typed during a year, from the the first film idea to the production's ends. The readers may experience meetings with medicine men and “warriors”, with descendants to Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse. Due to Arvol Looking Horse opened impossible doors and filmteamet ends up in a captivating world of medicine men that fights for the culture's överlevnad. The book describes a month of excited adventure in South Dakota, trimmed of blessing matters, överraskningar and lessons. Here, masses with information are about Lakotas unique ways to live, from ceremonies to trite bestyr. But the book gives also an excited insight behind the wings of a production of a film.
READ FIVE INTERVIEWS FROM THE FILM
Filmteamet did more than 40 interviews for the film but only five will be shown in strong nedklippt manners. Annika Banfield thought it each sin to lose this beautiful present of traditional Indians that divided with themselves of its experience and decided themselves because to reproduce five off the interviews in a booklet.
De intervjuade är:
Arvol Looking Horse - andlig ledare för Sioux och 19:e generationens innehavare av Den Heliga Pipan
Tom van Norman - Lakotas chefsadvokat samt en framgångsrik dansare
Richard Charging Eagle - krigsveteran samt innehavare av en av ceremoniknivarna
Dora Bruigier - 90-årig storyteller
Vic Camp - warrior och AIM aktivist
Reads about memories from the last, about the struggle in order to preserve the holy mountain Bear Butte, about ceremonies, everyday existence problems and the never the ending fight in order to preserve Lakotas unique culture. At the end of the booklet, a powerful statement exists also of Arvol Looking Horse just after the that he received UN: s peace pinch 2006.


To look at how the film and the books are marketed in the light of al Carroll's accusations:

"The behavior often referred to as White Supremacist, or White Privilege, usually seems to be rooted in an unconscious assumption of entitlement and cultural superiority".

"One of the basic assumptions that frequently gets labeled as White Privilege or White Supremacist seems to be that the dominant culture has a right to impose it's values on other races and cultures, and that these cultures need to serve the interests of the dominate culture, even if this is to their own detriment".

"When people disregard another races right to define, manage, maintain and protect their own physical, or cultural resources, or when people disregard another races right to select and empower their own leaders, these specific behaviors often get labeled as “racist “.

Words from the website:

"poor Lakota Indians"
(paternalistic?)

"The book describes a month of exciting adventure in South Dakota".
(Native struggle for cultural survival as "exciting adventure" to the filmmaker?)

"The readers may experience meetings with medicine men and “warriors”
"captivating world of medicine men"
(Are we in the search for exoticism here?)

"trimmed of blessing matters, överraskningar and lessons. Here, masses with information are about Lakotas unique ways to live, from ceremonies to trite bestyr".
(that these cultures should need to serve the interests of the dominate western, filmmaker's culture?)

Yet despite the controversy, the division this film has caused, the film proceeds full steam ahead
(When people disregard another races right to define, manage, maintain and protect their own physical, or cultural resources, or when people disregard another races right to select and empower their own leaders, these specific behaviors often get labeled as “racist")
by "racist"?
Sunday Aug 26th, 2007 8:17 PM
A rare insight into some Danish and Swedish Aid Organizations:

http://www.american-pictures.com/english/racism/articles/aid.htm

The author probably would wish to stay right out off this debate, but having come across this vebsite on the net, it makes interesting reading relevant to the issue on "racism" discussed here.

by Tired of the Insults
Sunday Aug 26th, 2007 9:01 PM
Tom Cook or who-ever you really are ------ WHAT'S THIS ALL ABOUT???

We have actually taken the time to look at Heyoka magazine --- and completely disagree with you. The magazine has nothing to do with your assumptions!!! You obviously haven't spent any time perusing the magazine. If you had, you would have seen that Heyoka is about ART --- painting, sculpture, photography, music, dance, poetry, performance, journalism, fashion, film, philosophy, human rights issues, environmental concerns, social and political conerns and spiritual well being. It is all the things that YOU ARE NOT. It is probably not in your sphere of comprehension to read poetry or to look at a beautiful painting or a work of sculpture. Just shut your trap! You don't have a clue of what Heyoka is becuase you haven't even looked at it. A lot of the artists in the magazine are world renowned. But of course, you probably wouldn't know who any of them were would you?

You don't have any iota of what Heyoka magazine is because you are perpetually spinning in your own web of deceitful lies and propoganda. GIVE US ALL A BREAK AND JUST SAY WHO YOU ARE AND STOP RANTING AND RAVING ABOUT WHITE SUPREMACY AND RACISM. Your derogatory comments and abusive language are pathetic! Who do you think you are anyway? We are getting a very clear picture on this end and it's disturbingly UGLY.

From what we are gathering -- you are projecting your own racist feelings about the Native Indians. Your heart is filled with venom and you are CRAZED by it! The perception here is that you are so full of JEALOUSY and ENVY about Heyoka magazine that you just can't think straight. You are not making any sense at all!

For some reason you are completely obsessed with distorting the truth about Heyoka magazine and what it really is about. What are you so afraid of? We have read some interesting postings about Al Carroll and his website that implicates him and his crew in a very negative light. Why is it that you are not talking about these issues; they seem to concern the movie "Spirits for Sale".

We want the truth!




by Dr Carroll
Sunday Aug 26th, 2007 9:28 PM



Visit this site and find out who the star of the film is http://www.alcarrollnewagefraud.org

by Try this
Sunday Aug 26th, 2007 9:30 PM

Try this.


http://www.alcarrollnewagefraud.com/
by new age interfaith religions
Sunday Aug 26th, 2007 9:42 PM

Is the film about this?

The White Buffalo Calf Pipe Commercialized
From the Dakota Lakota Journal, Volume 8, Issue 28, June 29 to July 6 2007

Along with the exploitation and marketing of our very Sacred Bundle, it has also been assimilated in with NEW AGE religion under the auspices of "Interfaith Religion", which is a fancy word for New Age religion. According to many web sites and articles that are out on the internet about Arvols' endeavors, in which almost all of them have been a part of this new "Interfaith Religion", that Wolakota Foundation has been actively promoting thru their " ALL NATIONS, ALL FAITHS, ONE PRAYER", logo and with their World Peace and Prayer Day activities, that Arvol and Wolakota Foundation, who Arvol supposedly founded, strongly supports and promotes this Interfaith Religion, by partaking in their activities and is utilizing Wolakota Foundation to spread the word throughout the world. Wolakota Foundation is also listed as an Interfaith Religion site on the internet. Since when did our Beautiful Way of Life, become a religion? We all know as an Oyate that our way of life is spirituality and not a religion, but it is promoted by our Keeper and his partner Paula Horne as a religion throughout the world and on the internet as such. Who decided that Wolakota Foundation could market our Sacred Bundle and way of life by selling the "White Buffalo Teachings", a book that Arvol had written and has sold to these "Mystery Schools", that teach New Age Religion, so they could incorporate these teachings into their New Age beliefs,so that they could profit off of our way of life. Who is benefiting from all of this? Surely not our youth, elders or any of our people that Arvol and Paula propose to help, as it states on their web pages. And who are the elders that Arvol and Paula said gave him permission to do all of this? The elders the people see with him, are from other tribes, not our elders, as our elders have respect and knowledge to not abuse or misuse our Sacred Bundle. What is even worse is that Wolakota Foundation has a Copyright on all of their content that is a part of their organization and is considered their property, which includes the "White Buffalo Teachings", the book Arvol had written about the Sacred Bundle, pictures of Miracle, the first white Buffalo Calf that was born,which they are also marketing and selling items with his pictures on them, as well as him being on the cover of the book that was written and the drawings that have white animals including the white buffalo that they have put on items to market and sell as profit for their own self gain. Copyright laws have been applied to what is held sacred by our people, and once again the federal government is controlling what is sacred to our people and saying who has rights to them and saying Wolakota Foundation, an organization does, when these teachings were given to us by our Creator and were NOT meant to be marketed and sold for profit for self gain. No one "OWNS" our teachings and the gifts from the Creator that was meant for our people to use to help us, such as Arvol does not own the Sacred Bundle but is the Keeper of it, the care taker as well as he doesn't "own " the teachings either to copyright it as such. It is all on their web site for the people to view for themselves. Such as other caretakers of bundles, he is to be with it, so why is he in Mexico City now and who knows where. Is he exploiting it for more money now? As this is scamming season. Where did it say in our teachings and prophecies that our Keeper was to sell our beautiful way of life, for his and his partners' self gain? And that our way of life was to go out into the World and to be assimilated into other religions?

Who benefited from these money making schemes, on the Cheyenne River Sioux Tribe reservation or any other reservations? Wolakota Foundation is founded on the Cheyenne River Sioux Tribe reservation and is the home of where our Sacred Bundle is kept and where our so called Keeper lives and whereas none of his people who reside on this reservation have not benefited from or been assisted in any way by Wolakota Foundation or by the Keeper, Arvol Looking Horse and his partner Paula Horne, except his partners' family. For a family who doesn't have an income, then where does all of these vehicles, expensive clothes and other items, come for these eight children of Paulas? What is happening to our way of life is Cultural Genocide!! and Assimilation into the dominant society, that is what the New Age religion/interfaith Religion is about, to create a New World order? There are many articles on the internet about this theory and if these " Interfaith Religion" groups want to combine religions including our Sacred Bundle then it is cultural genocide as they want to assimilate our way of life into theirs. Once again our Keeper and his partner, thru Wolakota Foundation is perpetrating what the Federal government has done to our people, using the same old tactics of Assimilation, Genocide, and having these two individuals use the age old tactics, of divide and conquer.

Only harsh words and lies about those who stand up for the Sacred Bundle are what comes from the mouths of the Keeper and his partner, never has there been an invitation to talk about all of this when it first started and to pray together, but threats to be prosecuted by them for talking about it and alot of anger is what came out of their mouths way before it became public, as they were given a chance to talk to us about it. Arvol was approached and told that all of this will go public and that the people will know what is going on with the Sacred Bundle, and he said to " Go ahead, it is already out there." But they want to hold anyone liable for questioning them and what they do for fund raising efforts and what they do with "their" money when it starts pouring in. During the spiritual run for 2007 they advertised it on their website and made it look like it was a run for the pipe, which was on their headlines as such and solicited money for it along with their run. They made it appear like it was a part of their activity. Why did they say they ran into Mexico City on their youth council website, when it was told they probably flew into Mexico. They are soliciting $1500.00 or more per runner, and it lists what the expenses are, so they are asking for more money than the amount stated and what they raise will be way more than what is asked as they solicit many organizations and private donors,such as last years run, when an estimated $48,000. to $50,000. was raised for last years run, which was run thru Arvol and Gracies' account. It was advertised on public service announcements that this spiritual run for the sacred pipe was insinuated that it was all for the sacred pipe in Green Grass, no one explained that it was really for the pipestone quarry. We find out the runners didn't know that it was being advertised on Wolakotas' website and appeared to be a part of their event, who knew the difference? Either way, Wolakota Foundation appears to be profiting from this run also. These are questions and thoughts that have come from many of our Oyate and are afraid to question Arvol about. Why is it that our People feel they have to be afraid to stand up for what we all know is right in out hearts? We all have that right as a Nation of people to question what is wrong ESPECIALLY when it concerns our most Sacred Bundle and no one should have to be afraid to question Arvol and his partner for they are just common human beings too. Paula never does ANYTHING without soliciting funds for what ever they do, as neither holds a "real job", as she is just a TANF mother, this includes fund raising for the Sundance too. Even Arvol has stated that if we see things that are wrong we need to question it and speak up about it where it concerns our beautiful way of life and our Sacred Bundle. Ho hecetu elo!

Alfred Bone Shirt
Vivian High Elk
Stacey Low Dog

by John LeKay
Sunday Aug 26th, 2007 10:55 PM
Dear Mr Cook,

Thank you for your letter however I find your insinuations and your reference to the nazi occult deeply offensive and extremely prejudiced which is not surprising since it appears you are just another lost member of NAFPS and have no life.

I find it equally disturbing that you would also refer to these 3 men listed below as dabblers in the Nazi occult and suggest you apologize to each and everyone of them.

Peter V Catches (Zintkala Oyate) is Keeper of the Spotted Eagle Way of Lakota medicine, its oral history, sacred rites, and experiential teachings.

Peter has conducted the Spotted Eagle Sun Dance at his home on the Pine Ridge Reservation in South Dakota for 30 consecutive years. The longest running in Lakota country.  He is the descendant of 37 generations of medicine men.  His family name, Catches-the-Enemy, was shortened a few generations ago.   
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.6.MEDICINE.PeteCatches.htm

James (Jim) Medicine Tree is both a spiritual adviser for, and a voting council member of, the “Keepers of the Sacred Tradition of Pipemakers" of Pipestone, Minnesota. He is on the advisory board for the E.T.Seton Institute (Black Wolf) of Santa Fe, New Mexico as well as a respected stone sculptor and Pipe carver.

 His Elders of influence are Adam Fortunate Eagle, spiritual leader of the “Keepers”, the late Lilly Windrider Nevarez, member of the Cherokee Medicine Society, M. Running Deer, Apache spiritual leader
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.6.PIPE.JimMedicineTree.htm

Bud Johnston " Ojibewa"
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.6.BudJOHNSTON.htm

Bud Johnston current President was elected Keepers President in 1996.  Bud is a storyteller, a teacher, an artist and an elder.  Bud began quarrying and carving pipestone about 1985 after he was transferred to Sioux Falls, South Dakota and realized how close he was to the Quarries.

As far as John Martin is concerned, he is just one in many people of who you refer to as the "Anti Looking Horse brigade". Which to Al Carolls diligent efforts seems to be growing stronger by the second.

http://www.dlncoalition.org/dln_issues/pipecommercialized.htm

http://www.dlncoalition.org/dln_issues/selling_indian_culture.htm#articles

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1296.0

As far as statistics are concerned,

1. Mala Spotted Eagles is the son of Rolling Thunder and his mother was a native American Indian. Until I see evidence that these allegations are true. I take it with a grain of salt.

2. If you are referring To Red Elk and his eccentric views, I hear you loud and clear, but have seen no evidence that he has sold ceremony and know he has much more Indian Blood than Al Carroll and all his 300 multiple personalities combined.

I have seen claims that Red Elk is associated with man called Harley Reagan which is also not true.

3. Sequoh True Blood was just in a video on the environment about Al Gores film. It was not about medicine but if you cant see the difference between medicine and the environment, that's your fault not mine.

4. I will refrain from discussing Looking Back Woman for obvious reasons because that would mean disusing Looking Horse and all the allegations.

5. As far as John Martin is concerned, he was never given a platform. A thread of his from NAFPS was included briefly only because it revealed Al Carroll was lying in claiming I was Steve W.

6. As far as La Vallee's defense. I highly commend him for his bravery and standing up to vile group and a venomous coward, libelist, gossip and a racist.

Jimmy LaVallee is a man of deep wisdom, spirituality, integrity and authenticity that puts the entire NAFPS group to shame. Not one of them is equal to a single hair on his head.

As far as your opinion as what you believe is a disservice to my readers, you are entitled to your opinion. As far as making amends. I already have. Who seriously needs to make amends is NAFPS for all their libel and racism.

What you need to do is to stop telling me what you think I should do and take a serious look at this libelous group that you support and make amends for this support and admit to serious errors in your own judgment .

I also challenge you to come clean and take a good hard deep look at your self and your real motivations and stop playing these transparent games that I can spot from 10 miles away. I am also a forgiving person and will forgive your insinuations of nazi sympathizing and if you show true courage and honesty with your intentions in writing me this letter.

I can see that you have a lot of work to do on yourself and I sincerely wish you the best that one day find the good red road of your people.

As far as NAFPS is concerned, I feel they have only damaged the Lakota people more than you can ever imagine and will continue to do so in the very near future.

Along with Jerry from the Cherokee people, I sincerely wait your humble apology and in the mean time have deleted the apology to Jerry since he has not responded to my question from two nights ago anout neo nazis. So he has forfeited my sincere apology and its its place I will link this letter.

Kind regards,

John LeKay
by Elizabeth
Monday Aug 27th, 2007 11:00 AM
What this debate seems to have established is the hidden ideological agenda and motives for these attacks on John LeKay and mostly upon Looking Back Woman is because of a so called "proclamation", regarding the exploitation of ceremonies by a Lakota elder named Arvol Looking Horse , whom Al Carroll and Annika Banfield, are heavily promoting in Europe and all around the world in books and a film called Spirits for Sale. See film participants http://web.mac.com/spiritsforsale/iWeb/Webbplats%202/Participants.html

The inherent problem with this film is that serious allegations have been made regarding two of the main interviewees in this film. One being a man named Al Carroll who claims he is of mescalero apache descent but has unable to provide evidence to authenticate this claim. He is also included in a book along side Trisha Jacobs "They us Indians" This person also claims to be of Cherokee descent. See here http://www.trishajacobs.com/ who is also a current NAFPS member.

This book with two others is also marketed by the same Swedish filmmaker Annika Banfield. http://www.world-foundation.nu/ who is a NAFPS member along with Al Carroll, Trisha Jacobs. Al Carroll has recently represented Arvol Looking Horse ( with out his consent) in an attempt to shut down heyoka magazine and to remove any criticism of himself, Arvol Looking Horse, Annika Banfeild and this Film and their respective organizations. World in Our hands, Wolakota and NAFPS.

The second major problem with this film is that a raging controversy is taking place among the Lakota people concerning serious allegations towards Arvol Looking Horse.
http://www.dlncoalition.org/dln_issues/pipecommercialized.htm

http://www.dlncoalition.org/dln_issues/selling_indian_culture.htm#articles

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1296.0

As a result of the timing of the serious nature of this controversy and these out standing allegations, the ethical step for Swedish film maker Annika Banfied to take affirmative action and edit both of these accused men from this film until this matter is resolved.

We ask that you take the perfect example of the moral and righteous action as when Heyoka magazine editor, John LeKay removed Looking Back Woman's interview from heyoka magazine along with some others until more clarity has been brought to this situation.

We humbly ask that Aniika Banfleid remove the interview with Arvol Looking Horse and Al Carroll from this film "Spirits for Sale"

We ask that a disclaimer is made regarding these serious allegations knowing that there is potential that this film will only play into the hands of new age exploiters, hucksters, scam artists, new age interfaith religions and financial marketers. That this film in effect with have the reverse action of its stated intention and will make a mockery out of the exploitation of ceremonies. That this film will set a negative double standard and by doing so will only seriously damage the Native Americans across the United Sates and from all nations.

Elizabeth for concerned Citizens for Native American Exploitation and Abuse
by Cash galore
Monday Aug 27th, 2007 5:58 PM

You missed something. They have another serious problem. Its the sale of this film.

Look what Louie Lawless Kevin Annett did. see here. 100 percent free.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6637396204037343133&q=unrepentant&total=295&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0
This is what hippy Barnaby criticized.

Kevin Annett did it the right way and put it on google for free. That film cost a lot to make as well, time too. He did this because he is coming from the right place. If this is really was about raising awareness and education, they would just make it available to as many people as possible. For free.




by Tired of the insults
Monday Aug 27th, 2007 6:27 PM
Well, well, it appears that the truth is coming through. What a scam! and a sham! Castigating innocent people to further their own monetary gains - Al Carroll and his pseudo NDN wannabe's are so transparent. All of his diatribe is just revealing who he really is and what he is all about. His insidious character is being illuminated with every posting he makes.
by Cash galore
Monday Aug 27th, 2007 7:05 PM

Yes, I know film makers who also make DVDs and hand them out for free. Not just posting them on google video. I think you can make a DVD for as little as 45 cents. Then just let people burn their own for free.

Really no excuse these days.
by Spirits For Sale
Monday Aug 27th, 2007 7:12 PM

Just found another problem.

Number 4. The title of the film Spirits For Sale can also be perceived as a problem since It sounds a bit like a play on words. Like a Swedish vodka commercial. Don't think these alcohol abuse issues are anything to make light of or to merge with sacred ceremony and spirituality.

by interfaith religions
Tuesday Aug 28th, 2007 9:49 AM

Spirtits for sale and scaming season is coming soon to a theate near you.

The White Buffalo Calf Pipe Commercialized
by new age interfaith religions
Sunday Aug 26th, 2007 9:42 PM

Is the film about this?

The White Buffalo Calf Pipe Commercialized
From the Dakota Lakota Journal, Volume 8, Issue 28, June 29 to July 6 2007

Along with the exploitation and marketing of our very Sacred Bundle, it has also been assimilated in with NEW AGE religion under the auspices of "Interfaith Religion", which is a fancy word for New Age religion. According to many web sites and articles that are out on the internet about Arvols' endeavors, in which almost all of them have been a part of this new "Interfaith Religion", that Wolakota Foundation has been actively promoting thru their " ALL NATIONS, ALL FAITHS, ONE PRAYER", logo and with their World Peace and Prayer Day activities, that Arvol and Wolakota Foundation, who Arvol supposedly founded, strongly supports and promotes this Interfaith Religion, by partaking in their activities and is utilizing Wolakota Foundation to spread the word throughout the world. Wolakota Foundation is also listed as an Interfaith Religion site on the internet. Since when did our Beautiful Way of Life, become a religion? We all know as an Oyate that our way of life is spirituality and not a religion, but it is promoted by our Keeper and his partner Paula Horne as a religion throughout the world and on the internet as such. Who decided that Wolakota Foundation could market our Sacred Bundle and way of life by selling the "White Buffalo Teachings", a book that Arvol had written and has sold to these "Mystery Schools", that teach New Age Religion, so they could incorporate these teachings into their New Age beliefs,so that they could profit off of our way of life. Who is benefiting from all of this? Surely not our youth, elders or any of our people that Arvol and Paula propose to help, as it states on their web pages. And who are the elders that Arvol and Paula said gave him permission to do all of this? The elders the people see with him, are from other tribes, not our elders, as our elders have respect and knowledge to not abuse or misuse our Sacred Bundle. What is even worse is that Wolakota Foundation has a Copyright on all of their content that is a part of their organization and is considered their property, which includes the "White Buffalo Teachings", the book Arvol had written about the Sacred Bundle, pictures of Miracle, the first white Buffalo Calf that was born,which they are also marketing and selling items with his pictures on them, as well as him being on the cover of the book that was written and the drawings that have white animals including the white buffalo that they have put on items to market and sell as profit for their own self gain. Copyright laws have been applied to what is held sacred by our people, and once again the federal government is controlling what is sacred to our people and saying who has rights to them and saying Wolakota Foundation, an organization does, when these teachings were given to us by our Creator and were NOT meant to be marketed and sold for profit for self gain. No one "OWNS" our teachings and the gifts from the Creator that was meant for our people to use to help us, such as Arvol does not own the Sacred Bundle but is the Keeper of it, the care taker as well as he doesn't "own " the teachings either to copyright it as such. It is all on their web site for the people to view for themselves. Such as other caretakers of bundles, he is to be with it, so why is he in Mexico City now and who knows where. Is he exploiting it for more money now? As this is scamming season. Where did it say in our teachings and prophecies that our Keeper was to sell our beautiful way of life, for his and his partners' self gain? And that our way of life was to go out into the World and to be assimilated into other religions?

Who benefited from these money making schemes, on the Cheyenne River Sioux Tribe reservation or any other reservations? Wolakota Foundation is founded on the Cheyenne River Sioux Tribe reservation and is the home of where our Sacred Bundle is kept and where our so called Keeper lives and whereas none of his people who reside on this reservation have not benefited from or been assisted in any way by Wolakota Foundation or by the Keeper, Arvol Looking Horse and his partner Paula Horne, except his partners' family. For a family who doesn't have an income, then where does all of these vehicles, expensive clothes and other items, come for these eight children of Paulas? What is happening to our way of life is Cultural Genocide!! and Assimilation into the dominant society, that is what the New Age religion/interfaith Religion is about, to create a New World order? There are many articles on the internet about this theory and if these " Interfaith Religion" groups want to combine religions including our Sacred Bundle then it is cultural genocide as they want to assimilate our way of life into theirs. Once again our Keeper and his partner, thru Wolakota Foundation is perpetrating what the Federal government has done to our people, using the same old tactics of Assimilation, Genocide, and having these two individuals use the age old tactics, of divide and conquer.

Only harsh words and lies about those who stand up for the Sacred Bundle are what comes from the mouths of the Keeper and his partner, never has there been an invitation to talk about all of this when it first started and to pray together, but threats to be prosecuted by them for talking about it and alot of anger is what came out of their mouths way before it became public, as they were given a chance to talk to us about it. Arvol was approached and told that all of this will go public and that the people will know what is going on with the Sacred Bundle, and he said to " Go ahead, it is already out there." But they want to hold anyone liable for questioning them and what they do for fund raising efforts and what they do with "their" money when it starts pouring in. During the spiritual run for 2007 they advertised it on their website and made it look like it was a run for the pipe, which was on their headlines as such and solicited money for it along with their run. They made it appear like it was a part of their activity. Why did they say they ran into Mexico City on their youth council website, when it was told they probably flew into Mexico. They are soliciting $1500.00 or more per runner, and it lists what the expenses are, so they are asking for more money than the amount stated and what they raise will be way more than what is asked as they solicit many organizations and private donors,such as last years run, when an estimated $48,000. to $50,000. was raised for last years run, which was run thru Arvol and Gracies' account. It was advertised on public service announcements that this spiritual run for the sacred pipe was insinuated that it was all for the sacred pipe in Green Grass, no one explained that it was really for the pipestone quarry. We find out the runners didn't know that it was being advertised on Wolakotas' website and appeared to be a part of their event, who knew the difference? Either way, Wolakota Foundation appears to be profiting from this run also. These are questions and thoughts that have come from many of our Oyate and are afraid to question Arvol about. Why is it that our People feel they have to be afraid to stand up for what we all know is right in out hearts? We all have that right as a Nation of people to question what is wrong ESPECIALLY when it concerns our most Sacred Bundle and no one should have to be afraid to question Arvol and his partner for they are just common human beings too. Paula never does ANYTHING without soliciting funds for what ever they do, as neither holds a "real job", as she is just a TANF mother, this includes fund raising for the Sundance too. Even Arvol has stated that if we see things that are wrong we need to question it and speak up about it where it concerns our beautiful way of life and our Sacred Bundle. Ho hecetu elo!

Alfred Bone Shirt
Vivian High Elk
Stacey Low Dog
by Journal
Tuesday Aug 28th, 2007 12:25 PM
LIBEL 1

Dr. Al Carroll: "New Age Frauds Plastic Shamans or NAFPS, located online at Newagefraud.org has been shut down temporarily due to the lies and libel by an English New Age racist, John Lekay, editor of Heyoka Magazine. Lekay is a leading promoter of New Age exploitation and colonialism and seeks to dominate Native spiritual traditions, especially Lakota religion, by promoting a series of fringe characters, all the while silencing Native voices."

John LeKay: Libel Number 1. New age fraud was shut down by their own choice. They were asked to remove the egregious libel concerning myself and were given 4 and a half days to do so. They chose to shut down their own site rather than remove the libel.

I personally have no interest in any new age doctrine, philosophy or religion and am definitely not a racist. Evidenced by my work with many cultures, peoples and friends from all across the world. I have never tried to silence anyone's voice or promoted New Age exploiters. Interviewing various people and asking objective questions to access the truth is not promoting them. However, due to this misperception, controversy and other reasons, these interviews in question have been removed.

In answer to the charge of silencing all the native voices across the US? In reality, what I have done is the exact opposite and provided a platform for their voices could be heard. So that the injustices, human rights abuses, the environmental issues, the poverty and the rest are disseminated as wide as possible, through Heyoka magazine, links and list servers.

LIBEL 2

Dr Al Carroll: "Mr Lekay joined the Newagefraud. org forum a few weeks ago and tried to bully its members into withdrawing our criticism of New Age racism, exploitation, sexual abuse, and greed and commercialism."

John LeKay: Libel Number 2. I asked for evidence of proof that these people were "frauds, perverts, sham-ons, feces, rapists, lost wonder breads, perverts, exploiters". I asked Al Carroll and his group to substantiate their claims, email gossip, hearsay, speculation and assumptions. Regarding Looking Back Woman and Mala Spotted Eagle. For doing so, I was viciously attacked by Al Carroll and one or two others and was called a child, racist, insane, loon, rambler, cross dresser, conspiracy theorist, ignorant, propagator of genocide and pedophile interviewer and more; on various forums such as http://www.indianz.com etc. I was also told I act as if I have no family, "the worst of all Native American insults" according to him. Please see example below.

Al Carroll: In Indian Country one of the worst insults is "He acts like he has no family." That's the way you've sometimes behaved".

JL: That's an interesting insult and have not heard that one before. Again to me insult like offense is a matter of choice. Not something that happens to you or is out of one's control. I take no insult at the worst of your insults and again see it as more projection on your part. You would get further by looking into the mirror and speaking to yourself. To be frank with you, I take any insults from you as a compliment and shows I'm really on the right track.


LIBEL 3

Al Carroll: "When we refused to back down, Lekay became abusive, arrogant, childish, and attacked our members, misrepresented the position of Newagfraud.org and the respected Native elders we support, and used foul and abusive language with elderly members, even repeatedly comparing Native elders who oppose the New Age movement to mass murderers."

John LeKay: Libel Number 3. Again this is not true and in reference to Tachia Hawk. The woman that called Looking Back Woman and Mala Spotted Eagle frauds, sham ons, feces, lost wonder bread children. No foul language was used by myself. Not even once. Please see below.

Al Carroll: "Didn't your family teach you to respect those older than you?'

JL: Alton, Just because someone is older is not always a reason to give them respect. Charles Manson is much older than me but he is also a murderer. I cannot respect anyone I have seen solid evidence to be a gossip and a slanderer.


LIBEL 4

Al Carroll: "The moderators banned Lekay for his abusive behavior."

JL: Libel Number 4. I was banned from NAFPS because I would not react to his abusive name calling. When all else failed and Al saw he was miserably loosing the debate, he hit the delete button and banned me. He also banned me because they could not provide me with substantiated evidence of some of the people they were accusing as frauds, perverts and more. As far as posting emails of accusing Mala Spotted Eagle of being a rapist on NAFPS and calling him one on indianz.com; I investigated this and found out he was never charged in Europe of rape. This was complete fabrication and libel.


LIBEL 5


Al Carroll: "He responded by contacting our host with more misrepresentations and false accusations, demanding we take off criticism of him or the New Age exploiters he promoted. When we refused, our host, which has changed owners, shut us down."

John LeKay: Libel Number 5. I only contacted the POW WEB hosting company after seeing more libel about accusing me of being people I was not on the NAFPS site and more libel like saying I was making a film to smear Arvol Looking Horse and more.

Once again, Al Carroll was graciously given 48 hours to remove the libel, and then an extra two and a half days. In total 4 and a half days. He self sabotaged his own site by not listening to his own hosting company.

He not only not remove this libel, but he then posted his own web hosting company's lawyer's warning letter and my confidential letter online. He then allowed more comments and threats about this letter by others, like posting this letter on http://www.indianz.com. Such as having me" torn apart by Pit Bulls and Dobermans". This is considered harassment and in violation of his terms of service.

POW WEB TERMS OF SERVICE.

Offensive Communication - harassment, defamation, libel and hate speech - Customers are prohibited from using our services to engage in activities that may be considered harassing, defamatory, libelous or malicious. Whether a particular activity is within scope of this prohibition is solely within our discretion. We generally consider harassing activity - or harassment - to be the act, or intention, of intimidating, threatening or otherwise tormenting others using our services. Harassment can result from the language used, or the frequency or size of a message. Hate speech or literature includes, but is not limited to, anything that prejudices, creates a hostile bias or grossly defames a group.

Al Carroll obviously violated Pow Web's terms of service and his legal contact by indulging in libel, harassment, intimidation, prejudice, maliciousness, defamatory comments etc.

I can easily prove this libel and that's why he was taken offline. The same way I can easily prove that what he states in this email is also libel. He did this to himself. This situation could have easily been remedied. I never asked for his site to be removed. I simply asked for a remedy to remove this libel and my private home address, street address, from his site.

LIBEL 6

Al Carroll: "Lekay has also contacted many people by e-mail, trying to obtain their support, which failed miserably. The only support he found was from a notorious white supremacist posing as part Comanche, David Yeagley, and one of his leading supporters, a violent racist named John Martin who has issued a number of death threats."

John LeKay: Libel Number 6. John Martin is a full blood Lakota and not a white supremacist, who had photos of his wife and two small children posted by Al Carroll on his website. I have never heard of a a full blood Indian being a white supremacist. That's like saying an African american is a white supremacist. It defies all logic and common sense.

This seems to be the pattern. That anyone who disagrees with Al Carroll or questions his authority is viciously labeled a racist, a white supremacist, fraud, child, insane, ignorant, paranoid, dangerous, violent, pervert, rapist, pedophile interviewer, cross dresser, wing nut, loon, crackpot, Rasputin (his latest label for me) and much worse. It also seems that when he can't use logic during a debate, he reverts to name calling as if he is a gang member; not a PhD college professor.

LIBEL 7

Al Carroll: "Lekay uses his Heyoka Magazine to publish several libelous articles about Dr Al Carroll, one of the founders of NAFPS, and Annika Banfeld the director of a Swedish charity for Native children who also helped produce a film against the exploitation of American Indian spirituality."

John LeKay: Libel Number 7. These articles are interviews with Jimmy La Vallee, who was slandered and libeled by Al Carroll, and Robin, an ex NAFPS member and respected NA elder who was also attacked by him. Also an interview with Thomas Lightning Bolt after he was slandered and ridiculed; an article questioning Al Carroll's claims of being a Mescalero apache. These articles have been removed.


LIBEL 8

Al Carroll: "Lekay is an ignorant, paranoid, and dangerous man who stated publicly he believed American Indians still live in tipis."

John LeKay: Libel Number 8. I have never stated that NAs live in Tipis. This is pure ludicrousness and more mendacity. Another absolute lie!



LIBEL 9

Al Carroll: "He smears all who disagree with him as FBI and RMCP agents, or even tools of Bush and Cheney."

John LeKay: Libel Number 9. I asked Barnaby McEwan ( "Alternative" English man residing in Totnes Devon England and NAFPS administrator) if he was in the FBI after he was attacking Kevin Annett and his film "unrepentant". As far as I know, only one other person has attempted to stop this film other than these agencies, other than Al Carroll. So it seems Dr. Al Carroll, the FBI and the RMCP have a lot in common in silencing the genocide, rape and molestation of 50,000 Canadian native children. Why would anyone in good conscience want to do this?

See film you decide.
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.8.Unrepentant..htm


LIBEL 10


Al Carroll: "Lekay is spending huge sums of his own money to produce a film promoting the replacement of Arvol Looking Horse with Suzanne Dupree AKA "Looking Back Woman", an ex hairdresser who has been off the reservation for nearly twenty year yet claims to be the "true" possessor of the Lakota sacred pipe."

John LeKay: Libel Number 10. This is pure 100 percent libel again. I do not even know Louie Lawless the filmmaker. I interviewed him once last year. I never met Looking Back Woman and also interviewed her last year and have zero to do with this film - Absolutely NOTHING! This is another reason why he was kicked of his site since this can easily be proved by asking the filmmaker Louie Lawless himself. Any web hosting lawyer can send him an email and find this out. You can't go around lying about people like this online these days and not expect consequences.

LIE 1) Al Carroll: The latest news is that Lekay is apparently making a film about Dupree, a full length feature devoting to smearing Looking Horse. And Lekay is backing the film entirely with his own money. He sent out a series of press releases only last month promoting it.

LIE 2) So it seems that Lekay was lying the entire time he was here. He is not disinterested or nonpartisan as he repeatedly claimed, even though everyone saw through that right away. He is the one who is out to protect his investment in a film.

Monday Aug 6th, 2007 9:45 PM
LIE 3) Lekay is spending huge sums of his own money to produce a film promoting the replacement of Arvol Looking Horse with Suzanne Dupree AKA "Looking Back Woman", an ex hairdresser who has been off the reservation for nearly twenty year yet claims to be the "true" possessor of the Lakota sacred pipe.

BIG LIE
by Louie Lawless
Sunday Aug 12th, 2007 3:12 PM

John LeKay is in no way involved with any film that I am doing or going to do, and he is not financing any film with me or for me.

Thanks Louie Lawless


LIBEL 11

Al Carroll: "Lekay and Dupree have white European New Age supporters presently spreading libel and lies about Looking Horse and his planned trip to Europe to speak against New Age exploiters. While falsely accusing Looking Horse of seeking to sell the sacred pipe to European whites, some of these same European whites themselves are ceremony sellers and promoters of New Age frauds like "Rainbow Eagle" and the so called "Deer Tribe."

John LeKay: Libel Number 11. I have no European supporters or any idea who "Rainbow Eagle" is or this "Deer Tribe". This is more of the same libel and misinformation. The only person I can think of who I know who has questioned this film and issue is by a very well known Lakota activist and elder named Alfred Bone Shirt.

http://www.argusleader.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070801/NEWS/708010325

by Subject: al carroll
Tuesday Aug 28th, 2007 3:24 PM
LIBEL 1

Dr. Al Carroll: "New Age Frauds Plastic Shamans or NAFPS, located online at Newagefraud.org has been shut down temporarily due to the lies and libel by an English New Age racist, John Lekay, editor of Heyoka Magazine"

The above paragraph is more libel. This is why it was shut down. He chose not to remove all libelous material and mentions of John LeKays name. He did this to himself. See letter.


Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 16:42:10 -0400 [08/01/2007 04:42:10 PM EDT]
From: legal [at] powweb-inc.com
To: webmaster [at] newagefraud.org
Subject: alcarroll / Libelous Material [C02911932000000000]

Due to the fact that your site has become controversial, and you have not removed all mentions of "John LeKay" from your site, as asked, we will be unable to provide hosting for you any longer. Please let us know if there is anything you need before we fully terminate your account. If we do not receive a response from you by Monday, August 6, we will terminate your account.


Should you have further questions, please contact us.


Sincerely,




General Counsel
legal [at] powweb-inc.com


by controversy
Tuesday Aug 28th, 2007 10:04 PM
That the film "Spirits for Sale" has caused a serious division, and yet this division is of no consequence to the Swedish filmmaker tells something about the integrity of Annika Banfield's activities.

And why is this Swedish woman telling the people themselves, concerned in this matter where The Pipe is !!!!

"The Pipe has never been ”lost”. It is in safety in the Pipehouse".

http://www.world-foundation.nu/Statement.htm

This just doesn't add up in a right way !

by Stick to the Facts
Wednesday Aug 29th, 2007 9:08 AM
THE FACTS:

Mr. LeKay tried to use his slick rag to project himself as a competent man of character and judgment who was

It failed.
Massive amounts of evidence have been presented that would suggest that Mr. LeKay is completely ignorant of Native American Religious protocol and is not competent to speak on such matters.

When this ignorance of Native American Religious practices was exposed by an established online group, without any provocation, Mr. LeKay enlisted the services of racist, homophobic, anti-Semitic, sexist persons of questionable mental health to harass the members of this group and deny them their online civil liberties.

There is ample evidence on the internet that John Martin has threatened physical violence towards people he disagrees with in the past and Mr. LeKay had access to this information. It was negligent and irresponsible of him to continue to associate himself with this individual and to give him a forum for spreading his outrageous theories which are grounded in racism, anti-Semitism and misogyny.

There is evidence posted on the NAFPS board that Mr. LeKay threatened a SLAPP suit, contacted their ISP and attempted to shut them down by presenting inaccurate information.
Mr. LeKay has refused to accept responsibility for his numerous errors in judgment.

Therefore, Mr. LeKay had engaged in malicious prosecution.

The NAFPS leader should immediately engage an attorney, contact the ACLU and see that Mr. LeKay is punished for his assault on the first amendments rights of the NAFPS members, as well as other members of online communities seeking accurate information about the numerous frauds posing as native American spiritual leaders.
Any litigation in this matter needs to be directed towards Mr. LeKay's un-American and excessive efforts to stifle free speech on the internet.

When one small group is threatened by this abhorrent lack of respect for dissent and free speech, every group is threatened.


There is no such group as Elizabeth for concerned Citizens for Native American Exploitation and Abuse


Elizabeth is a shill
by Shill Buster
Wednesday Aug 29th, 2007 9:19 AM
Dr. Al Carroll: "New Age Frauds Plastic Shamans or NAFPS, located online at Newagefraud.org has been shut down temporarily due to the lies and libel by an English New Age racist, John Lekay, editor of Heyoka Magazine"

John Le Kay is English (NOT NATIVE AMERICAN)
John LeKay is New Age - no one would pander to New Age sensibilities the way he does and not share their basic beliefs
John LeKay's magazine does not promote collective grassroots efforts to "save the environment" it promotes the New Age RACIST belief that Native Americans will save the planet for the rest of us by sharing their sacred and mystical beliefs.
Whether or not white racists realize their racism, they are still racist.
John LeKay exploints the images and actions of Native Americans to give his magazine a "Multi-cultural venerr" This is racist.
Most of the images of of non white people and the actions and efforts of white people are not featured prominantly in the magazine even though the magazine is clearly directed toward white upper class college educated left of center whites
This is racist.
John LeKay is a WHITE man who thinks he has the WHITE POWER to suppress any critiicism of his racism by using WHITE POWER to stifle the free speech of nonWHite people. THis is blatant racism as well as blatant WHITE SUPREMEECY.
The fact the John LeKay continues to be in a state of denial about his racism, does not erase his racism.
The fact that John LeKay's supporters are intellectually incapable of grasping the aforementioned concepts does not erase the fact that they are shills who share John LeKay's white supremacist world view.

This debate will go on until those embedded in white privillege gather the courage to examine all of their assumptions and to question the world view they have acquired through years and years of racist indoctrination in an unjust society.

Heyoke magazine serves no useful purpose other than to temporarily alleviate John LeKay's white guilt. Whenever LeKay's white guilt returns he will launch another irrational attack on the brown people who exposed his white privillege.

This is the way the world works.

As long as the internet is dominated by white people, this type of "controversy" will go on.

by Elizabeth
Wednesday Aug 29th, 2007 12:53 PM

It was become clearly obvious to any rational minded person who has witnessed this debate can see what this has been about from day 1. These attacks, libel. insults are a direct result of John LeKay seeking evidence that the vicious attacks and rumors on nafps concerning Looking Back Woman be substantiated.

Being that this interview with Looking Back Woman was critical of a man named Arvol Looking Horse who is a participant along with Al Carroll in the Swedish film "Spirits For Sale." This film is made by another nafps member named Annika Banfield.

To understand the controversy concerning this man. Read these articles.

http://www.dlncoalition.org/dln_issues/pipecommercialized.htm

http://www.dlncoalition.org/dln_issues/selling_indian_culture.htm#articles

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1296.0

It appears that John LeKay is being used by nafps as an old time scapegoat and a diversion tactic. This Frothing of Al Carroll's mouth and his irrational and ludicrous comments is his desperate attempt to pull the wool over people eyes. He has been caught red handed of committing libel and proved earlier in this debate. He still continues to commit libel and in incapable of apologizing or admitting his libel.

He is also incapable of understating that heyoka magazine is a multi media collaborative art project featuring some of the most renowned artists in the word. This concept is similar to the music event "Live AID" which was an event to raise awareness about the poverty in Africa.

Heyoka magazine is primarily concerned with raising awareness to the poverty, human rights abuse, the uranium contamination of and Wasichu (fat takers) corporate mining industries who have very intention of continue to mine, rape and desecrate the land of the Black Hills. John LeKay has been working on this for close to 3 years mostly behind the scenes while also conducting interviews in public to bring this to the attention of the international media.

The fact that Al Carroll deliberately attempts to distort this truth and keeps attacking this magazine only appears that he is by choice, working on the side of these Wasichu mining corporations attack dog. This is the very same person who also attacked Kevin Annett.

Here are just some of the people that Al Carroll has also called racist for collaborating in this project
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.8.HeyokaInterviews.htm

Al Carroll and his activities should be investigated by the anti-defamation league since the many of the artists involved with this heyoka magazine, he has referred to racist white supremacists and nazis are of Jewish descent.

Some of the most important and influential artist and movements in art history have been squashed in the past and were called racist, un-German, degenerate, crazy by the Nazis during the 2nd world war. http://www.fcit.usf.edu/HOLOCAUST/arts/artDegen.htm

This is the same strategy Al Carroll is using with this multi media art movement that heyoka magazine represents. Art, painting, poetry, sculpture, music, dance is a universal language. Art breaks down these ignorant racist stereotypes. Al Carroll's repeated charges are is very own racist projections.
by Arvols response and Robin
Wednesday Aug 29th, 2007 1:35 PM

Excuse me, forgot to add Arvol looking Horse response.


http://mytwobeadsworth.com/ArvolLookinghorsestate707.html

There are are two sides to every story. The main problem with nafps is that if some or attempts to show the other side of a story, or to ask legitimate questions, more than often they are attacked by Al Carroll and their posts are twisted, distorted and omitted. He is incapable of accepting any form of criticism. He has never apologized for any of his mistakes or for people he has harmed like Jaye LaValle, Robin and countless others. They thinks that using a blanket statement such as "fraud' will suffice.

Robin was a long term nafpas member. She left after being attacked her self by Al Carroll. Read interview here.

John LeKay: When did you first hear about NAFPS and why did you join this group?

Robin: I first heard about the NAFPS through a member of their group. It was my first time that I had ever gone into a forum on the internet. When I first went into the forum, it was very foreign in the sense that there were many names of people in research and frauds, that I had never heard of.  I tried to read through as many posts as I could to grasp what the main focus of the group was. However, I myself had a specific role to play when I joined the NAFPS and that was to involve myself on the inside of a group called the CKY to expose who and what the group was, to obtain as much information on the individuals as possible, especially those that held the ranks of what they called "priests, clan mothers, and chiefs".

JL: After reading the numerous posts in the so called "research" and in "fraud" columns, what was your initial gut reaction, your intuition telling you about to what you had read?

Robin: As I began to read through the posts on groups or individuals, I saw a pattern within the group which I had discussed
with another member, and that was; for the number of members that were in the group, I saw only a small handful that posted or responded. Those that posted would sometimes cut and paste emails of outside individuals, without any substantial proof the person existed or what they said was truth. Most of the postings were based on mainly links provided, which many times led to more hearsay of others. Some links did provide, in reading, show that the the group or individual proven evidence that the public should be wary of. Also, I became aware that it was common practice that if a post was made of an individual or group, it was bombarded by several posts of accusations, hearsay, at times much deletion and editing (and in reading what was deleted or such that the person defending themselves did not write things that warranted such editing nor deletion). This reminded me of seeing a child in a school yard being ganged up by several children. These were usually posted as "childish behavior, insults, racial remarks" to give a few examples that were and still are used; giving the impression to many reading the post that the person defending themselves are viewed as a guilty person through unfounded remarks. When nothing more could be said, then another post would be started on a new subject or person. I, myself, saw a small portion of the many posts where someone from the group actually went out and gathered facts that were of credence.

My own personal feelings on the matter was that I was involved within a group that was damaging people that may not have deserved what was printed about them. I knew that the nafps was not what it appeared and before Mr. Carroll and I had a disagreement, I had already made the decision to leave the group

JL: What conclusion did you draw as to what this group was about?

Robin: My conclusion of the group as a whole is based on not my opinion but facts. The whole system of the nafps is based on emotions of dysfunction, there are contradictions; much are based on "do as I say, not as I do". The group as a whole consists of white people that have little to no knowledge of native people and customs, except through books, cyberspace, and limited contact with native people. When there has been in the group - actual tribal members - when expressing their view on something, in most cases have been brushed aside or attacked. What is held sacred in the group is not that of native culture, but moreso of themselves and their beliefs on how native people should act or behave according to their standards. This is not a group that base their foundation on native culture, but that of personal beliefs of what they have either read, or picked up small bits of information from actual native people. The saying that some people know enough to make them dangerous, in this case it would rightly apply.

JL: Why did you have a disagreement with Mr. Carroll?

Robin: There had been communications between Al Carrol and myself about the CKY, and what I was going to do. Once I joined into the CKY group, I tried to converse with as many people as I could to gather whatever information I could. The CKY based their beliefs on new age of Atlantis with a mix of Mayan, very little Cherokee and other beliefs that were totally made up by members. As soon as I joined I was told I would call Jerry Edwards along with other male members "priests". I replied that if I was to follow "traditions" then they should do the same and speak to me only through my husband and not myself directly.
This angered Jerry Edwards but not to the degree of kicking me out. About the third day of being a member, I had received a phone call stating there was a picture of me and a map of my location on their web page. I immediately emailed them and told them if they did not remove it I would contact the police and FBI.

Within 2 weeks I received a letter from an attorney representing them with unethical threats. In first reading it, I thought it was a joke, due to the stationary used, the way the letter was worded unlike all the attorneys I know. So I called the attorney and it was not until I left a message that I was calling the bar association then did he return my call. In my conversation with him, he was very vague unlike the accusations that were stated in the letter. In the meantime I did begin the process to file a complaint against the attorney.

I had retained an attorney in Ky. that would take the case. I had received a letter from Al Carroll that backed up what my case was based on. In the meantime, Al Carroll had posted on his site through a cut and paste that one of the members of the CKY was going to join the group, this person named Starr was one that was involved in the case we were building against the CKY and had given Edwards' attorney false information about me.

When reading the post from Al Carroll in his group it as I said was a cut and paste of a letter that was to appear to be that of Starr. In his posting he said that Starr had seen the wrongs by the Edwards and was now going to join the nafps. This became a contradiction, and also a conflict of interest concerning my case against the Edwards, Starr and their attorney. When I stated to Al Carroll he was wrong for allowing her into the group at that time, I felt he was slapping me in the face as I stated to him. His response which he has now removed from the nafps board, but I have a copy of , was of this" did you not forget that you yourself was once a delusional and confused woman that was a member of the CKY"? This statement that he made was a means to validate what he was doing. And to make it appear that I was actually a real member of the CKY but had come to my senses and was converted into exposing frauds.

So I posted emails between he and I showing what he was saying was not the truth, that he was compromising my case by changing his story of what the truth was. He deleted many of them shortly after I posted them. In his personal emails to me, he thought I was wrong for being angry, that what he had posted should have no bearing on my case( which in fact one of the strongest points in my case were based on what Al Carroll had stated in a letter to the bar association and the public) That I was disrespecting him, and then continued with emails with taunts. However he had for whatever reason changed his mind and instead posted that I myself was nothing more than a confused woman involved in a fraud group.

Since that time he announced that this woman "Starr" had joined the nafps she made a intro post on July 12, 2006, but has never made any other posts or replies in the nafps.

It was also at that time he was attacking Scarlett Kinney. She and I had come to an understanding of each other through mutual respect. I had read her site and in communication understood what she was trying to accomplish and that perhaps I could share some stories with her and some personal insight. This is by far selling out my traditions as stated by Al Carroll this past April in a group forum in Tennessee.

I myself have been very busy and involved this past year with children that have been given up by their biological mothers and are wards of the state. My husband and I took a newborn in last July and just recently finalized the adoption. We are not licensed foster parents and do not receive any kind of assistance nor state aid for what we do, it comes from our pockets. As I stated to Al when he made the post that yes I was selling, but not traditions, I was selling my personal belongings to pay for the attorney fees in the adoption, and if he liked to go on ebay and see what I was selling, had sold and perhaps maybe he would buy something that would be making a positive contribution to a child that needed a good stable home. In the adoption process you must go through several background checks, criminal, physical, and psychological. My husband and I both passed and in fact it was recommended to the judge through these background checks that the process waive the 6 month grace period. If I was a unstable person or a person of questionable character I would not have been granted the adoption. That in itself shows the untruths that Al Carroll has said about me.
 
I have not had time to doing nothing more than care for children. No where have I sold out traditions, nor made public appearances in regards to ceremonies or teachings of traditions. Al Carroll posted under a unknown name,  "That I had sold out to white exploiters" was traced to the Jordan School District in San Antonio, Texas. His posting of untruths about me has not come from research, but through words like that of a little boy that needs attention, whether it be good or bad. what is interesting about all this, I am not a public figure in no way whatsoever, I am a housewife, mother, grandmother nothing more. I have nothing to gain in the public's opinion of lying. The public opinion is not a priority in my life, what is, are the children I take in and care for.

JL: Were you also attacked by other members of the NAFPS group or just Al Carroll?
 
Robin: The dynamics within the group if attacks occur usually fall into the hands of two people,  Al Carroll and Moma Porcupine.  But if there were a conflict with Al Carroll, I believe that in my situation, if some did not agree with how Al handled the situation, they would not nor did they speak up on the matter. In fact is was quiet the opposite, no one spoke on the matter. It is more an attitude of sweep it under the rug and pretend it doesn't exist. And go on to the next subject. However I did forward an email to Barnaby from Al Carroll and I did this only to prove in fact I was truthful in the matter. The answer that came back from him was, " what do you want me to do about it?" In sending it I already knew that I would receive a response that would be of an answer such as that.
 
I did receive a personal email from Annika asking me to reconsider leaving the group, pointing to me that perhaps "Starr" was a changed person and should be given the chance to prove it. But she also stated that if "Starr" was not, it would be easy to see if it was more of a way for a fraud to come into the group to create discord. I did not have it in me to tell her, that I thought Al only wanted everyone to think "Starr" was part of nafps, for the reason which if looking at it from the outside view, was to get drama and more readers in the room at the time. This is also another tactic used to bring people in to read, to create sensational reading. But what it really is, a form of personality dysfunction.

When it comes to confronting Al when he is wrong, there is no objectivity there within the group. It is a matter if you read the
many posts he makes, you will not find any in the group that will voice or posts anything that might be in disagreement with what he says.
And if one does, the pattern is Moma Porcupine will come in and attack the person, then Al may come in with passiveness,. However they seem to tag team who is good cop / bad cop. Never do they log into the nafps at the same time. In fact when reading some of her more recent posts, there has been a large difference in how she writes. Which is leading me to believe the Moma Porcupine is actually a man pretending to be a woman, or perhaps a man that is like a woman.   If you take a closer look at the two main attackers, Al Carrol and Moma Porcupine,  why do they do this? Because they have the most to loose on the board, and that is the board itself.

I did feel some undertone attacks with Moma Porcupine at times, which I found somewhat puzzling. Because most of the time it was based on unimportant and unrelated issues that were borderline paranoia. Other than Al Carroll and Moma Porcupine there were no others that attacked me, yet no one made any attempts to defend me either. It reminded me much of a person walking down the street and is mugged, many people walk by yet do nothing, some of the reasons people do this is, do not care, do not want to get involved, or fear alone. There are undertones of fear in the forum, which do remind me of someone living with an alcoholic, there is fear of unpredictability of not knowing what the person will say or do. Always on guard to defend the perpetrator. For fear of being rejected, smeared, damaged or hurt in some way.
 
JL: Do you know if other members of the group were smeared, damaged or hurt for confronting Al Carroll.
 
Robin: Yes there have been other members in the nafps that have been attacked.
JL: Who is Moma Porcupine, who is Barnaby McEwan and who is Annika Banfield?  Are these the primary players other than Al Carroll? What do they do besides posting on nafps?  Where do they live and work?

RL: Momma Porcupine is anonymous. She gives no information of who or what she is, nor where she lives or what she does. I believe she is a man and is actually two different people posting under that name. She has no intro in the group. Barnaby, I can only say he lives in the U.K. what he does, I have no information other than that. Annika is a friend of Al Carroll's she lives in Sweden and has done filming on native American issues.

JL: Do you see a behavioral pattern as to the dynamics of the group? In other words is there internal email dialogue amongst each other as to how they will deal with a NAFPS dissident for example?

Robin: Yes, there are emails that are sent between members in regards to issues posted and how one may handle the situation, what could be said, what to do and not do. 
If receiving e mails from Al Carroll stating that if I talked to certain individuals, that it would also make me a fraud. I would have to say yes.  I received 3 emails from him in regards to who I talk to. I would like to leave it up to anyone that might read this to form their own opinion of how they would view this as an outsider what this would be considered as.
 
JL:  Al Carroll has been unable to prove his apache origin. The fact is he he is not enrolled, recognized or affiliated with any apache tribe. Using his mathematics, couldn't Barnaby McEwan hippy from England also say he is part Mescarleo apache?  So could Annika Banfield who is from Sweden?
Why you believe he has not been able to prove who he is or what his roots are and what exactly do you think this would mean to most Native Americans?

Robin: Al Carroll in his own words has stated in his blog were two comments from two native ladies, one he names is Annika, the other Momma Porcupine. Annika I suppose would be native of Sweden, but not here in the states, and Moma Porcupine has stated herself she is not Native American, so I do not know what that statement would actually mean if it is in the terms as I just stated. Otherwise it is a fabrication of Al Carroll trying to pass them off as Native American women.
 
I have seen many friends that are Native American that were adopted out, yet have been able to find and locate their biological families.

I have a daughter-in-law, her father is Hispanic and her mother is Hispanic/native mix, yet she herself does not say she is Mexican/Native mix, she says she is Mexican.
I have seen many Hispanic people for whatever reason say they are native, but has no proof to their bloodline of being native. When a person states they are unenrolled this means  1) Their native roots go so far back that they do not qualify with a tribe according the the tribes Blood Quantum requirements, 2) They can not produce any family names that would link them to a tribe.
In most cases ( I underlined most because it is not implying all) people that are unenrolled under say the two examples I gave, having no knowledge of the culture, language or ceremonies, and in Al Carroll's case I have only seen him use Lakota words which that in itself says quiet a lot. It says he knows very little to none of his own culture that he proudly shouts out. Yet not proud enough to learn it.  In my family there are 3 tribes, I myself can converse with all of them. I have been taught the languages, the customs, the ceremonies. 
If Al Carroll can not prove he is Apache, nor speak the language, or even know some of the customs,  the question would be why does he find it necessary to say he is Mexican/Apache? If you look at what he actually does, that in itself will answer the question.

JL: Do you know how the apache feel about some one who claims to be representing them and is attacking other tribes and medicine people and meddling in their business?  What is this doing for intertribal relations?

Robin: I have one friend that is from the White Mountain Apache Tribe. We have discussed this issue in the past. It has angered her to see Mexican people state they are Apache. As she has said "none of them speak our language, what do they know about being  Apache?"
I am not a member of the Apache and can not speak for them, but what I will say on the subject is that no tribe wants anyone that is not appointed to speak for them, speak out on matters that concern their traditions or culture.
John if I may put it this way, you are from England, is that correct? How would the people in England feel if someone from a foreign country set up a web site to discuss matters of the political, and religious practices of England?  How many Catholic Popes have declared  Kings and Queens of England to be heretics? It is the same mind set. Do foreigners have the right to appoint themselves to be over seers of other countries? No, just like in this case with the nafps they do not have the right to oversee matters that do not concern them, they do not live under the same laws as those on reservations. They do not live in the conditions, nor walk out of their homes every morning and deal with the issues that many on the reservations are dealing with on a daily basis. There may be one or two on the board that might live in the Native communities and deal with these issues, but it does not give them the right to speak on behalf of their tribe or other tribes. The native communities are filled with gangs, violence, poverty, abuse, homeless, jobless. The forum itself instead of focusing on a handful of frauds, they would be more constructive if they were working with the tribes to help the many overcome the issues that I have pointed out. It is very sad to see in a recent posting that one of their members who works with his tribe to cultivate their natural resources to improve his tribe and preserve for their youth's future, to be put under a microscope by Moma Porcupine and try to imply that he is exploiting his culture.
Read what Martina Looking Horse, Arvol's sister has posted recently , in it she speaks about outsiders and the damage they have and are doing to the Lakota people. She herself along with many others do not want outside meddlers involved within the Lakota communities, customs or traditions. What would make the nafps exempt from this? Nothing, this includes all with no exceptions.
 
JL:  Would you say that this group is doing more harm than good or vice versa?
 
Robin: I myself have seen very little positive come from the group. As a whole they may think they had done much good, however that is a state of denial that many of them are in. The tribes themselves are the ones that should and are handling frauds. To have people that are not enrolled in the tribes, having stepped out of their boundaries and have imposed themselves in matters that do not concern them is disrespecting the elders and traditions.
 
JL: Have you ever known this NAFPS group to retract their comments or humbly apologize to anyone?

Robin: I myself have never seen anyone apologize in a sincere or humbling manner. Nor have I seen anyone retract any comments made toward a person they were attacking.

by Elder
Wednesday Aug 29th, 2007 1:50 PM
They should leave most of these matters alone. The European nafps members have violated many tribes boundaries in a paternalistic fashion. They think they know what is best for the tribe when they making accusations at members. On or off the rez. Many respected Indians do not live on the rez.

This is the letter that Al Carroll wrote on behalf on Annika Banfield and Arvol Looking Horse. Why is Al Carroll writing letters for Annika Banfield and Arvol Looking Horse and lying about defaming him? This was to remove the Looking Back Woman interview before the film "Spirits For Sale" was released in the US.

What has John Martin got to do with Heyoka magazine? He is not a staff member or works for heyoka magazine. His conflict with Al Carroll was going on for a year before John LeKay has even heard of him.


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Subject: NOTICE OF ALLEGED LIBELOUS MATERIAL (heyokamagazine.com) [C02982931000000000]
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 16:58:24 -0400

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> A site hosted by your company is hosted by New Age violent racists,
namely John Lekay and John Martin, out to silence us or intimidate us with
their campaign of libel and racist
> smears.
>
> And it is being launched from and hosted by your company, and we
demand it come to an end.
>
> I demand in the sringest terms that your compnay pull all libelous,
> defamatory, and false information on NAFPS, Dr. Al Carroll, World In
Our Hands Foundation, and Arvol Looking Horse.
>
> John Lekay and John Martin are guilty of violating their TOS for the
> following:
>
> 1. The access, monitor or disruption of another's account, computer,
> computer network, or security measures.
>
> Lekay and Martin have repeatedly tried to disrupt NAFPS under
> multiple accounts and identities based from Ready Hosting Inc.
>
> 2. Other Illegal Activities. Customers are not allowed to engage in
> activities that are deemed illegal by ReadyHosting.
>
> Lekay and Martin are engaged in libel and, were they to actually go
> to a court and repeat their libel, also would be guilty of perjury.
>
> 3. Offensive Communication - harassment, defamation, libel and hate
> speech.
>
> Lekay and Martin have repeatedly defamed, harassed, libeled, and
> engaged in hate speech against American Indians, American Indian
> elders and activists, and NAFPS and Arvol Looking Horse in
> particular.
>
> Martin has also repeatedly engaged in hate speech against Mexicans,
> Muslims, Arabs, Blacks, and American Indians. Lekay and Martin are
> openly supporters of white supremacist and John Birch Society member
> David Yeagley.
>
> Lekay also has repeatedly compared American Indians to mass
> murderers, FBI agents, and tools of Bush and Cheney.
>
> 4. The act, or intention, of intimidating, threatening or otherwise
> tormenting others using our services. Harassment can result from the
> language used, or the frequency or size of a message. Hate speech or
> literature includes, but is not limited to, anything that prejudices,
> creates a hostile bias or grossly defames a group.
>
> See above.
>
> Ready Hosting Inc. needs to quit hosting racism and bigotry, to quit
> using its site to defame American Indian activists and
> traditionalists, and quit defaming, libeling, and spreading numerous
> lies about NAFPS, Dr. Al Carroll, World In Our Hands Foundation, and
> Arvol Looking Horse by these racist and exploiters!
>
> Thank you,
> Dr. Al Carroll

by Yellow hair buster
Wednesday Aug 29th, 2007 2:47 PM
"Lekay also has repeatedly compared American Indians to mass murderers"

That was Jaye La Vallee a Lakota comparing Al Carroll and his social terrorism to Timothy McVee and his cowardly attacks to General Yellow hair Custer.

In reality, all Al Carroll needs to do is add a little peroxide to his hair, put on his blue coat and scream CHARGE while looking at himself in the mirror.

That would do the trick
by Marlon
Wednesday Aug 29th, 2007 3:49 PM
Thanks mate.

Looks like this audience is now turning international. I think he has already kicked his own teeth in with anyone's help. Really did not even have to try. Its much more fun just being the detached observer and watching some one who could not fight themselves out of a wet paper bag if there life depended on it. His problem is this time he cant ban me like he did on nafps. Or have his Calvary gang up on me without getting a severe hiding. Or delete posts and add his pathological lying childish nonsense and fool his readers.

As soon as he starts loosing, watch the R word suddenly appear or white supremacist label and he wonders why is credibility has been flushed down the toilet.

by Still Here
Wednesday Aug 29th, 2007 5:40 PM
What is the point of arguing with this person ? He just makes stuff up and ignores anyone who contradicts the misinformation he seems so absolutely determined to spread . Worse he seems absolutely determined to drown out Native people who know what they are talking about .

I notice that every comment from someone who disagrees with John Lekay , gets answered with 10 -20 posts , all of which appear to be written by John Lekay or his one or his supporters .

I see someone even stoops so low as to repeatedly reposting the same thing over and over and over . It's called spaming , and is just one more way Lekay drowns out Native voices that know what they are talking about .

I don't think anyone with an interest in respectful communication would behave in such a way . This spaming is one more piece of evidence that it is all about drowning out , over powering , and DOMINATING .

So imagine the term "White" can mean more than just skin color, and can also refer to something cultural...
( yeah I know this concept that "race" might be something cultural, and not just about skin color ,might be too deep for a shallow mind to grasp )

And then take the word Supreme and Dominant ... Hmmm similar meaning there, huh ?

Must just be a coincidence ... Don't think about it

AND

Quick . plug your ears ... LALALALALALALLALALALALAL
by Native Activist
Wednesday Aug 29th, 2007 6:33 PM
"And then take the word Supreme and Dominant ... Hmmm similar meaning there, huh ?

Must just be a coincidence ... "


Al Carroll you want to slander Heyoka Magazine, you want to boycott Amazon books so that the only Supreme and Dominant voice could be yours, Al Carroll, "the history professor":

http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A2KQHP2AO6MWHK?ie=UTF8&sort_by=MostRecentReview

Spewing your hatred all over Internet, you pretend to be the voice for all Natives, you are not, and as a Native Activist I'll add my voice to this:

"NAFPS ARE DISRESPECTING ELDERS AND TRADITIONS by Elder"
"They should leave most of these matters alone. The European nafps members have violated many tribes boundaries in a paternalistic fashion. They think they know what is best for the tribe when they making accusations at members. On or off the rez. Many respected Indians do not live on the rez."


by I'm the Pope & Santa Claus
Wednesday Aug 29th, 2007 7:09 PM
You don't sound like a Native activist . I generally judge people by their actions .

But ... OK

Name all the tribal leaders and Native organizations you are acting on behalf of .

Bet you can't name ANY that support Lekay's foolishness .

People can claim ANYTHING on the internet about themselves .

If I tell you I am a Rabbi and the Pope but the papers were all hidden in a big
conspiracy would you believe me ? Are you a evil nasty horrible person if you
think I am full of BS ?

The only Native activists I see here , are those actively opposing the promotion of bogus native medicine people and spiritual leaders .

Is that you ?
by Back to front
Wednesday Aug 29th, 2007 9:10 PM


Nafps. quote. "If I tell you I am a Rabbi and the Pope but the papers were all hidden in a big conspiracy would you believe me ? Are you a evil nasty horrible person if you think I am full of BS ? "

That's like Al Carroll claiming he is an apache when he cant prove it.
Please don't make weep and soil myself with laughter.
There is no big left wing conspiracy here.
He is just a plain simple circus clown and confidence trickster.
You would buy the Brooklyn bridge if he told it was for sale.
That's like Trisha Rose Jacobs claiming she was Cherokee.
How ironic she is also a nafps member.
How many times is Annika Banfield going to swallow all this con artistry with that book "they call us Indians"
It should be titled "they call us a bunch of con artists"
Or a million little lies after James Frey.
nafps is a con artist group with some legitimate Indians like sapa.
Debbie Redbear is a shrew what needs serious taming.
An ill-tempered scolding woman like Al Carroll.
But he is just a quarter of a woman.
Why came I hither but to that intent?
Think you a little din can daunt mine ears?
Have I not in my time heard Lions roar?
Have I not heard the sea, puffed up with winds,
Rage like an angry boar, chafèd with sweat?
Have I not heard great ordnance in the field
And heaven's arrtilery thunder in the skies?
Have I not in pitchèd battle heard
Loud 'larums, neighing steeds, and trumpets clang?
And do you tell me of a woman's tongue,
That gives not half so great a blow to hear
As will a chesnut in a farmer's fire?"

by The Exorcist Part 4
Wednesday Aug 29th, 2007 9:38 PM
This is for the absense of Al Carrolls soul.

RITUS EXORCIZANDI DE AL CARROLL
OBSESSOS A DÆMONIO
(Rite Of Exorcism)
SACERDOS ab Ordinario delegatus, rite confessus, aut saltem corde peccata sua detestans, peracto, si commode fieri possit, Sanctissimo Missæ sacrificio, divinoque auxilio piis precibus implorato, superpelliceo et stola violacea indutus, et coram se habens obsessum ligatum, si sit periculum, eum, se et astantes communiat signo crucis, et aspergat aqua benedicta, et genibus flexis, aliis respondentibus, dicat Litanias ordinarias usque ad Preces exclusive. Postem dicat:

Ant. Ne reminiscáris, Dómini, delicta nostra, vel paréntum nostrórum: neque vindíctam sumas de peccátis nostris.
Pater noster secreto usque ad

V. Et ne nos indúcas in tentatiónem.
VI. Sed líbera nos a malo.


Psalmus 53
Deus, in nómine tuo salvum me fac,
et virtúte tua age causam meam.
Deus, audi oratiónem meam;
áuribus pércipe verba oris mei.

Nam supérbi insurréxunt contra me, et violénti quasiérunt vitam meam;
non proposuérunt Deum ante óculos suos.

Ecce, Deus ádjuvat me,
óminus susténtat vitam meam.

Retórque malum in adversários meos,
et pro fidelitáte tua déstrue ilos.

Voluntárie sacrificábo tibi,
celebrábo nomen tuum, Dómine, quia bonum est.

Nam ex omni tribulatióne eripuit me,
et inimícos meos confúsos vidit óculos meus.

Glória Patri.

V. Salvum (-am) fac servum tuum (ancillam tuam).
R. Deus meus, sperántem in te.

V. Esto ei, Dómini, turris fortitúdinis.
R. A fácie inimíci.

V. Nihil proficiat inimicus in eo (ea).
R. Et fílius iniquitátis non appónat nocére ei.

V. Mitte ei, Dómine, auxilium de sancto.
R. Et de Sion tuére eum (ea)

V. Dómine, exaudi oratiónem meam.
R. Et clamor meus ad te véniat.

V. Dóminus vobíscum.
R. Et cum spírito tuo.

Orémus Oratio


DEUS, cui próprium est miseréri semper et párcere: súscipe deprecatiónem nostram; ut hunc fámulum tuum, quem (hanc fámulam tuam, quam) delictórum caténa constríngit, miserátio tuæ pietátis cleménter absólvat.

DÓMINE sancte, Pater omnípotens, ætérne Deus, Pater Dómini nostri Jesu Christi, qui illum réfugam tyránnum et apóstatam gehénnae ígnibus deputásti, quique Unigénitum tuum in hunc mundum misísti, ut illum rugiéntem contéret: velóciter atténdem accélera, ut erípias hóminem ad imáginem et similitúdinem tuam creátum, a ruína et dæmónio meridiáno. Da, Dómine, terrórem tuum super béstiam, quæ extérminat vineam tuam. Da fidúciam servis tuis contra nequíssimum dracónem pugnáre fortíssime, ne contémnat sperántes in te, et ne dicat, sicut in Pharaóne, qui jam dixit: Deum non novi, nec Israël dimítto. Urgeat illum déxtera tua potens discédere a fámulo tuo N. (a fámula tua N.) +, ne diútius præsúmat captívum tenére, quem tu ad imáginem tuam fácere dignátus es, et in Fílio tuo redemísti: Qui tecum vivit et regnat in unitáte Spíritus Sancti Deus, per ómnia sæcula sæculórum.

Amen.
Deinde praecipiat daemoni hunc in modum:


PRAECÍPIO tibi, quicúmque es, spíritus immúnde, et ómnibus sóciis tuis hunc dei fámulum (hanc dei fámulam) obsidéntibus: ut per mystéria incarnatiónis, passiónis, resurrectiónis et ascensiónis Dómini nostri Jesu Christi, per missiónem Spíritus Sancti, et per advéntum ejúsdem Dómini nostri ad judicium, dicas mihi nomen tuum, die et horam éxitus tui, cum áliquo signo: et ut mihi Dei minístro licet indígno, prorsus in ómnibus obédias: neque hanc creatúram Dei, vel circunstántes, aut eórum bona ullo modo offéndas.

Deinde legantur super obsessum haec Evangelis, vel saltem unum.
Léctio sancti Evangélii secúndum Joánnem.


Hæc dicens, signat se et obsessum in fronte, ore et pectore.

In princípio erat Verbum, etc ut supra.

Léctio sancti Evangélii secúndum Marcum
(Mark 16:15-18)


IN ILLO témpore: Dixit Jesus discípulis suis: Eúntes in mundum univérsum, prædicáte Evangélium omni creatúræ. Qui credíderit, et baptizátus fuérit, salvus erit: qui vero non credíderit, condemnábitur. Signa autem eos, qui credíderint, hæc sequéntur: In nómine meo dæmónia ejícient: linguis loquéntur novis: serpéntes tollent: et si mortíferum quid bíberint, non eius nocébit: super aegros manus impónent, et bene habébunt.

Léctio sancti Evangélii secúndum Lucam
(Luke 10:17-20)

IN ILLO témpore: Revérsi sunt septuagínta duo cum gáudio, dícentes at Jesum: Dómine, étiam dæmónia subjiciúntur nóbis in nómine tuo. Et ait illis: Vidébant sátanam sicut fulgur de cælo cadéntem. Ecci dedi vobis potestátem calcándi supra serpéntes, et scorpiónes, et super omnem virtútem inimíci: et nihil vobis nocébit. Verumtamen in hoc nolíte gaudére, quia spíritus vobis subjiciúntur: gaudéte autem, quod nómina vestra scripta sunt in cælis.

Léctio sancti Evangélii secúndum Lucam
(Luke 11:14-22)
IN ILLO témpore: Erat Jesus ejíciens daemónium, et illud erat mutum. Et cum ejecísset daemónium, locútus est mutus, et admirátæ sunt turbæ. Quidam autem ex eis dixérunt: In Beélzebub príncipe dæmóniorum éjicit dæmónia. Et álii tentántes, signum de cælo quærébant ab eo. Ipse autem ut vidit cogitatiónes eórum, dixit eis: Omne regnum in seípsum divísum desolábitur, et domu supra domum cadet. Si autem et sátanas in seípsum divísus est, quómodo stabit regnum eius? Quia dícitis, in Beélzebub ejício dæmónia. Si autem ego in Beélzebub ejício dæmónia, filii vestri in quo ejíciunt? Ideo ipsi júdices vestri erunt. Porro si in dígito Dei ejício dæmónia: profécto pervénit in vos regnum dei. Cum fortis armátus custódit átrium suum, in pace sunt ea, quæ póssidet. Si autem fórtior eo supervéniens vícerit eum, univérsa arma ejus áuferet, in quibus confidébat, et spólia ejus distribuet.

V. Dómine, exaudi oratiónem meam.
R. Et clamor meus ad te véniat.
V. Dóminus vobíscum.
R. Et cum spírito tuo.

Orémus Oratio


OMNÍPOTENS Dómine, Verbum dei Patris, Christe Jesu, Deus et Dóminus univérsæ creatúræ: qui sanctis Apóstolis tuis dedísti potestátem calcándi super serpéntes et scorpiónes: qui inter cétera mirabílium tuórum præcépta dignátus es dícere: Dæmones effugáte: cujus virtúte motus tamquam fulgur de cælo sátanas cécidit: tuum sanctum nomen cum timóre et tremóre supplíciter déprecor, ut indigníssimo mihi servo tuo, data vénia ómnium delictórum meórum, constantem fidem, et potestátem donáre dignéris, ut hunc crudélem dæmonem, brácchii tui sancti munítus poténtia, fidéliter et secúrus aggrédiar: per te, Jesu Christe, Dómine Deus noster, qui ventúrus es judicáre vivos et mórtuos, et sæculum per ignem.

Amen.

Deinde muniat se et obsessum signo crucis, imponat extremam partem stolæ collo ejus, et dextera manu sua capiti ejus imposita, constanter et magna cum fide dicat ea quae sequuntur:

V. Ecce Crucem Dómini, fúgite, partes advérsæ.
R. Vicit leo de tribu Juda, radix David.
V. Dómine, exaudi oratiónem meam.
R. Et clamor meus ad te véniat.

V. Dóminus vobíscum.
R. Et cum spírito tuo.

Orémus Oratio

Deus, et Pater Dómini nostri Jesu Christi, invoco nomen sanctum tuum, et cleméntiam tuam supplex expósco: ut advérsus hunc, et omnem immúndum spíritum, qui vexat hoc plasma tuum, mihi auxilium præstáre dignéris. Per eúmdem Dóminum.

Amen
by Sad and angry
Thursday Aug 30th, 2007 1:11 AM
It is with some shock that Arvol Looking Horse would associate himself with this group who produced this "film" (and I use the term loosely) called Spirits for Sale that is being promoted by a Swedish group. Why Sweden? Why not the US where we do have Native American Indian film makers and actors who should be involved in the making of such a documentary. Well, Al Carroll - Tricia Jacobs - a vicious woman who has hurt and harmed the reputations and lives of many innocent people with her lies and allegations - she made so many and hurt so many, she finally took down her hateful website and for that, we are real happy. She claims to be Cherokee, but she isn't Cherokee - she isn't native at all - just another non-native fake who attacks legitimate Indian people out of this sickness she seems to have in her head.

They are taking advantage of Arvol Looking Horse in fooling him into thinking that this movie will do some good to legitimately protect Lakota Sacred Ceremonies from abuse. They are only interested in making money and a name for themselves. Carroll, Jacobs and others have written several books in Sweden about Indians - and they certainly do not represent American Indians, nor do they speak for us either. They are exploiters themselves.

Do not be fooled by their false allegations against legitimate publishers like John LeKay.

Take a look at their online message board and see how vicious they really are.

NAFPS

Please take the time to read this message board. They are willing and anxious to attack anyone they don't like - it doesn't have anything to do with just protecting Sacred Ceremonies from abuse and sale - they are trouble makers, and obviously, have some serious personality issues themselves.

They do not represent Native people. There is not one legitimate, respected, well-known native leader who endorses this group. Even though Arvol Looking Horse has traveled to Sweden all expenses paid for this documentary - I just can't believe he really knows the group he is dealing with or what they truly represent.
by Sad day
Thursday Aug 30th, 2007 6:38 AM

I doubt Arvol Looking Horse knows he is working with Trisha Jacobs, or Al Carroll and vicious people of this ilk. If he only knew the half of what these people are like. http://www.trishajacobs.com/
by Sad day
Thursday Aug 30th, 2007 6:47 AM
This is the problem. Arvol Looking Horse should know better. Who ever is advising him, is destroying him. He should be kept miles away from people like this. This film "Spirits for sale" is a nafps film production. Made by a nafps member, inspired by Al Carroll and nafps.
by Jim and Tammy Bakker
Thursday Aug 30th, 2007 7:27 AM
Cetan

Re: Allegations against Arvol Looking Horse
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2007, 10:55:06 am »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The e-mail was from Vivian High Elk and it said foward to whoever. I am disappointed that you would remove suspected abuse - isn't that what this forum is supposed to be about. I am not passing judgement one way or another however I do know that 2 days after the protection of ceremonies statement came out Arvol was pouring an off rez inipi for mostly whites then gave a talk and book signing which he charged for. I know this to be true because I personally witnessed it. I also know that the person who brought him there told me he was embarrassed to bring Arvol back because he discovered Arvol was having sexual relations with a white woman there who was definately not his wife or partner. End of quote.

This is what they are posting about Avol Looking Horse on nafps while using him to promote their film "spirits for sale" it looks like they are setting him up like the Jim and Tammy Bakker story. They seek the controversy and attention because it sells more theater tickets and Swedish books.

Notice the resemblance.

On March 19, 1987, following threats of the revelation of the payoff to former secretary Jessica Hahn, whom Bakker's staff members had paid $265,000 to keep secret her allegation that he had raped her, Bakker resigned from PTL. Jerry Falwell, who was Bakker's successor at PTL, called Bakker a liar, an embezzler, a sexual deviant, and "the greatest scab and cancer on the face of Christianity in 2,000 years of church history."

Financial irregularities in the PTL organization led to another scandal. From 1984 to 1987, Bakker and his PTL associates had sold "lifetime memberships" for $1,000 or more that entitled buyers to a three-night stay annually at a luxury hotel at Heritage USA. According to the prosecution at Bakker's later fraud trial, tens of thousands of memberships had been sold, but only one 500-room hotel was ever completed. Bakker sold more "exclusive" partnerships than could be accommodated, while raising more than twice the money needed to build the actual hotel. A good deal of the money went into Heritage USA's operating expenses, and Bakker kept $3,700,000 for himself. Bakker, who apparently made all of the financial decisions for the PTL organization, kept two sets of books to conceal the accounting irregularities. Reporters from the newspaper The Charlotte Observer, led by Charles Shepard, discovered and exposed the financial wrongdoings.

Heritage USA has changed hands a number of times. Recently, a portion of the land was purchased by Rick Joyner's MorningStar Ministries, which is currently in the process of restoring the property for use as a Christian retreat and conference center known as Heritage International Ministries.

Conviction and prison

Bakker was indicted on federal charges of fraud, tax evasion, and racketeering. In 1989, after trial in Charlotte, Judge Robert Potter convicted Bakker of fraud and conspiring to commit fraud and sentenced him to 45 years in federal prison. Bakker's associate, Richard Dortch, senior vice-president of PTL and associate pastor of Heritage Village Church, also went to prison In 1992, Bakker and his wife Tammy Faye were divorced at her request. Billy Graham visited Bakker in prison, as did his son, Franklin Graham, repeatedly saying, "Jim Bakker is my friend."

Defending Bakker, one of his attorneys said: "If a man raises over $150 million for a business that competed with Disney and the major networks and kept $3 million for himself, he may be guilty of mismanagement, naïveté, even stupidity, but should it be a crime? Do you think Falwell lives in a five-room house?"[citation needed] The defense's argument failed. While mismanagement is legal, PTL was a non-profit organization, therefore Bakker had committed fraud, which is illegal.

According to Jim Bakker's book I Was Wrong, the royalties from the books that he and Tammy wrote and the recordings that Tammy sold added up to $8,000,000. These royalties were given to PTL, as the Bakkers could not benefit from their own crimes. The board of PTL, independent of Jim and Tammy, awarded the Bakkers the 3+ million dollar bonus over a period of five years. They also determined Jim Bakker's salary of $200,000 per year.

In early 1991, a federal appeals court upheld Bakker's conviction on the fraud and conspiracy charges, but voided Bakker's 45-year sentence, as well as the $500,000 fine, and ordered that a new sentencing hearing be held. At that hearing, Bakker was sentenced to 18 years in prison.


by John LeKay
Thursday Aug 30th, 2007 8:40 AM
"I have to say that I guess in a way i would have to thank ol le-kay for letting me know about this site after attack me. This is a good place"

La Donna, you are welcome. When did I attack you by the way? Do you mean you attacking me? Saying I promoted a child molester when I did not. Is this how you perceive you are being attacked?

earthw7
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I know what you are talking about Dr. carroll. I have been watch this guy Lekay and his little magizine. He has promoted a child molester as a medicine man in the past.
I was surprised to get an email like this and it is a little funny.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.standingrocktourism.com
by Elizabeth
Thursday Aug 30th, 2007 9:12 AM
Did you see this?


earthw7 LaDonna Brave Bull
Junior Member
Re: Allegations against Arvol Looking Horse
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2007, 03:58:57 pm »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have to remind people that this SMALL group in Rosebud does not speak for the
Lakota Nation
When the proclamation first came out it was these people who stood up aganist it.

Don't believe everything people post lies and rumor are everywhere . End of quote




by yes
Thursday Aug 30th, 2007 9:15 AM




Yes. Its obvious.
by allegations of sexual abuse
Thursday Aug 30th, 2007 9:17 AM
I don't know about the allegations against Mala Pope but here is a situation
I have experienced in real life ;

I was asked to give support to a family thats children said they had
been sexually molested by a man who did a lot of babysitting .

The family had substance abuse issues, and was not "healthy". They were
ndn and not trust or want to take this to the police and there probably would
not be enough to build a case anyway, as the children were under 5 and very
shy of strangers.

I personally witnessed what these children had to say, and saw their distress.
Though it is possible this was staged for some ulterior motive by the adults, and
the alleged molester tried to claim this, my own feeling was that the children were
telling the truth.

So here is the question ;

If this man continued to babysit children, and I knew what I have told you here,
would it be right or wrong for me to protect this mans reputation and NOT tell you
what I knew, on the chance this was just malicious gossip ?

False allegations of sexual misconduct DO happen. So who has the greatest right
to be protected ? The potential victims, or the potentially wrongly accused ? It is a
REALLY tough judgment call

If I was your friend John Lekay, and these were YOUR children being babysat,
and I decided to protect this mans reputation and I didn't tell you, how would you
feel, when you later found out I knewthis man might be dangerous, but hadn't told
you ?

I bet you would feel that I should have given you the information, and let you make
up your own mind about what was best for your kids .

If out of concern for your children, I DID tell you what I knew, but couldn't prove
this and you accused the people who gave you this information of ulterior motives
and being nothing but malicious gossips, and irresponsibly damaging the reputation
of an innocent man, would I be correct in saying you "attacked " me ?

Your inability to see situations from any point of view but your own, is truly
astounding .
by Dont get astounded
Thursday Aug 30th, 2007 10:16 AM

"If this man continued to babysit children, and I knew what I have told you here,
would it be right or wrong for me to protect this mans reputation and NOT tell you
what I knew, on the chance this was just malicious gossip ? "

Yes, I totally agree with you, but then are you saying La Donna Brave Bull has this much information of Mala Pope molesting children?

Did she witness this first hand like you did. Or is she just spreading 7th hand rumors?

That is an important distinction.

She also said I promoted a child molester on indianz. As if I did this intentionally. If Mala Spotted Eagle is not a child molester, or she has no proof of this, then she owes many people a serious apology. Mala Spotted Eagle and his wife and children for one.

"False allegations of sexual misconduct DO happen. So who has the greatest right
to be protected ? The potential victims, or the potentially wrongly accused ? It is a
REALLY tough judgment call"

Agree, it is a really tough judgment call and that's why we have professional clinical child psychologists , social workers, who specialize in child abuse, law enforcement officers and criminal courts, DAs offices. So they can investigate and prosecute these people.

"If this man continued to babysit children, and I knew what I have told you here,
would it be right or wrong for me to protect this mans reputation and NOT tell you
what I knew, on the chance this was just malicious gossip ?

When you make allegations as series as this, you better be 100 percent sure of what you are talking about because this can destroy a persons life and the life of their family. Break up a marriage. To do so is as irresponsible as shooting someone in the back of the head.

This is what I'm talking about. Ask LaDonna to post on here her evidence Mala Spotted Eagle is a child molester. We want to see it. If she has solid evidence. I will contact the police today myself.

Also also ask her to post evidence of where I attacked her. I want to see this attack.


by Get real
Thursday Aug 30th, 2007 3:03 PM
I am not going to repeat myself, explaining again why accusing a person who provided information to keep people safe, of being nothing more than a malicious gossip, might be seen as an attack. Learn to read or understand what you read . It would help .

I don't know what is behind the occasional allegations of sexual abuse that some people post in NAFPS, but I do know for a fact the vast majority of sexual abuse doesn't get reported to authorities. There is a lot of accurate information passed between people on who is not a safe person, that is not in police records .

Quoting Lekay
"Agree, it is a really tough judgment call and that's why we have professional clinical child psychologists , social workers, who specialize in child abuse, law enforcement officers and criminal courts, DAs offices. So they can investigate and prosecute these people."

Once more you show an astounding ignorance of reality. You can't rightly force a victim of abuse to go to the police or any other social service agency if they don't want to. To even imagine it
would be OK to force this is wrong. And for many very good reasons many victims don't choose to take this route. And even if victims do go the the police, often there isn't enough evidence to prosecute, and no charges are laid.

Why do you so arrogantly leap to the conclusion that if YOU don't have first hand information, it doesn't exist ? Why do you jump to the conclusion people are repeating rumors, when they may be providing first hand information, but out of respect for confidentiality, they can't reveal their source ?

You should realize, if someone publicly states someone is a sexual deviant or a child molester that
this is a very serious allegation and if it isn't true, and can't be proven, the person who makes this allegation ( especially someone holding a position of apparent credibility like a psychologist )
has committed a serious crime, and could be sued for wrongly damaging someones reputation

IMO The people who take this risk, especially if they do so under their real name, are either extremely malicious, mentally unstable, or they have very good reason to believe these
allegations are true and they are putting themselves at risk to protect public safety .

Again Lekay, you seem to be incapable of distinguishing between the actions of a hero and those of a scoundrel .

Most people take an allegation they read on line with a grain of salt, and if it doesn't fit with any of the facts they know about a person, information that sounds wrong is usually just ignored .

It isn't a perfect system. People get accused of stuff that is unfair on many internet message
boards, and people even go to jail for crimes they never committed. When that happens it is a tragedy and very very wrong, but the alternative of just assuming what you heard couldn't have happened, or expecting documented proof of everything you don't want to believe, while expecting none for what you do want to believe, doesn't work either. It was exactly that sort of thinking that allowed all the abuse to go on unstopped in the boarding schools you claim to be so concerned about .

Personally I don't know what is right, and probably the answer is different in different situations but if a person is reasonably sure this type of information is correct, I sure wouldn't criticize people for making sure the people who needed to know this to stay safe, had access to this.

Instead of focusing on the imperfections of NAFPS and people educating the public about the protection of ceremonies, Lekay would do much better to focus on his own badly flawed research skills.

For instance, can Lekay name even one verifiable licensed psychologist who will support Lavallee's repeated claims that Al Carroll is a sexual deviant? And if Lekay can find this verifiable licensed psychologist to publicly support these claims, will this person also support that it was ethical to publish this humiliating information on line, when Al Carroll's contributions to NAFPS do not bring him into contact with potential victims ?

Once again it does not seem to be any real concern for truth or justice or journalistic integrity that concern these folks. The only consistent concern seems to be to discredit people involved in protecting ceremonies, in any way possible .

People aren't stupid ...

by ask yourself this
Thursday Aug 30th, 2007 5:48 PM
"Once more you show an astounding ignorance of reality. You can't rightly force a victim of abuse to go to the police or any other social service agency if they don't want to. To even imagine it would be OK to force this is wrong. And for many very good reasons many victims don't choose to take this route. And even if victims do go the the police, often there isn't enough evidence to prosecute, and no charges are laid. "

Once again dont get asounded by my seeing right through you like im reading a book. You still did not answer the question. I asked for evidence that Mala Spotted Eagle is a child molester. This was not LaDonna Brave Bulls psychological evaluation. She stated this as a fact.

"I know what you are talking about Dr. carroll. I have been watch this guy Lekay and his little magizine. He has promoted a child molester as a medicine man in the past"

A: Did she actually witness this molestation take place?

B: Did some one tell her about this molestation?

C: Did she read it on the internet?

D: Where did this molestation take place?

These are very simple straight forward questions. People have a right to know why she made this serious accusation.

Using your criteria , I could also say Al Carroll is a child molester, but I have no evidence to prove this, or am willing to let you know why I think this is. Im just a hero projecting the general public from him.

I can say you are a mass murderer but have no evidence to prove this, or am not willing to tell you why I think this is. Im just a hero protecting the public. Try telling that to a judge in a court of law and see how far you would get.

NAFPS: "Most people take an allegation they read on line with a grain of salt, and if it doesn't fit with any of the facts they know about a person, information that sounds wrong is usually just ignored."

This is not true for a number of reasons. People who do not have access to this person or have no other means to verify these accusations will very often take this as truth. That is why libel laws are set in place, so the law protects people from making these malicious accusations. If you have ever been written about in news papers or magazines you will learn to discover that people do believe what they read. Even if you were misquoted or if its not true. I know this for a fact.

"For instance, can Lekay name even one verifiable licensed psychologist who will support Lavallee's repeated claims that Al Carroll is a sexual deviant? And if Lekay can find this verifiable licensed psychologist to publicly support these claims, will this person also support that it was ethical to publish this humiliating information on line, when Al Carroll's contributions to NAFPS do not bring him into contact with potential victims ? "

As far as Jaye La Vallee is concerned or finding a licensed psychologist who will support LaVallees claims and whether it was ethical to publish his feelings. Ask your self the same question whether its ethical to publish emails accusing people of being rapists like Mala Spotted Eagle or the emails in this link below.
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1296.0

Obviously you do.

That was LaVallees therapeutic and professional opinion based on his experience with working with many sexual deviants. I am not a psychologist, so can not speak for Jay LaValle or how he came to this conclusion and opinion. What signs or behavioral patterns he saw in Al Carroll's speech, writing and bio. That was an expression of his feelings and his opinion. You would have to ask him.

If "Most people take an allegation they read on line with a grain of salt and if it doesn't fit with any of the facts they know about a person, information that sounds wrong is usually just ignored."

Then if you believe this to be true, then why does this bother you?

Why dont you just ignore it like you preach to others to do when you call them racists, crackpots, child molestors and rapists? Whats the big deal about being called a sexual deviant?

by too sad
Thursday Aug 30th, 2007 6:15 PM

Going back to the "Activists?" post.

Maybe it is wise not to associate the whole of Sweden to the actions of Annika Banfield, Al Carroll, Trisha Jacobs and the nafps.

This "Spirits for Sale"controversy is sickening.

On one hand it is good that the highly controversial issues surrounding this film and the books have come to light.

On the other hand, out of respect, the publication of the books and the film should have waited until this matter was dealt with internally by the Lakota themselves.
IMHO that would have been the decent thing to do in regards to this matter.

http://www.argusleader.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070801/NEWS/708010325



by no right answer
Thursday Aug 30th, 2007 8:48 PM
When it comes to allegations of sexual misconduct, there often isn't any
proof, and it often is just one persons word against another's .

What do you expect . Movies ? An eye witness that wasn't an accessory ?
you have no idea how often there is no proof, or how often no one is sure
who to believe when there really has been abuse. Even when people go
to the hospital right afterward and there is evidence , that is still not proof.

Even bruises and DNA can be denied and said to be consent or falling down
or someone else did part of it or the person is crazy.

Sometimes there ARE false allegations . But again , how do you
prove that?

I can't speak for earth7 but no matter if she answers all these questions or not,
no proof means it is just one persons (or several persons ) word against another's.
How could anyone know who was credible in an on line situation where no one knows
these people ? And I wouldn't give someone like Lekay any details of who victims
were, because who knows how he would treat them. His track record so far isn't
exactly much to recommend him as a sensitive guy .

So all these demanding entitled questions are pretty irrelevant .

With no proof, the questions about the ethics of sharing this information
basically remain the same, and the "right" answer depends on what really
happened. If people can't ever be sure of this, we can't ever be sure of
the "right" answer. All we can know is one answer is VERY right and another
answer is VERY wrong .

It would be for the wrongly accused to make a complaint to the accuser,
not Lekay, who once again is obviously biased because he is accusing people
of being liars when he should know he doesn't have all the facts . If he did
have all the facts, he would know where all these people heard these stories .

In the comments on Monday Aug 13th, 2007 5:25 PM someone posting as
Patrick Quinn did report having been told of some problems first hand and
he left his email. So I guess if you really want to know more, you could
ask him. But I doubt whatever he says will prove anything one way or the
other.

I don't know, but I wouldn't guess Al Carroll is very concerned about
anything silly Lavallee says .

Quote
"Whats the big deal about being called a sexual deviant?"

I was more interested in the all Lekay's glaring double standards .

Quote
"Using your criteria , I could also say Al Carroll is a child molester,
but I have no evidence to prove this"

Telling someone information you have reason to believe is true
which will probably protect peoples safety , IS NOT AT ALL THE SAME
as just making it up that someone is a child molester, because they might be .

If you can't tell the difference, you really are one sick puppy .
by Gossipmongerer
Thursday Aug 30th, 2007 10:35 PM

NAFPS: "When it comes to allegations of sexual misconduct, there often isn't any proof, and it often is just one persons word against another's . What do you expect . Movies ? An eye witness that wasn't an accessory ?

HEYOKA: I would like LaDonna to answer a simple question for the third time. Why did she call Mala Spotted Eagle a child molester? There has to be a logical explanation for her doing this. No one in there right mind goes around making these serious allegations unless they know this to be true. Another reason someone would do this is with a malicious intent. That is to deceive the public and to destroy someone's character.

A) Either she saw him molesting a child.

B} Was told by someone that he molested a child.

C} Read somewhere that he molested a child.

D} Or she is not telling the truth.

NAFPS: "I can't speak for earth7 but no matter if she answers all these questions or not, no proof means it is just one persons (or several persons ) word against another's. How could anyone know who was credible in an on line situation where no one knows these people ?"

HEYOKA; Then if you don't have proof or, know then do not make these allegations. Its that simple. Wait until you have the evidence.

NAFPS: "And I wouldn't give someone like Lekay any details of who victims were, because who knows how he would treat them. His track record so far isn't exactly much to recommend him as a sensitive guy ."

HEYOKA: This is an very poor excuse. Does not work. Try harder.

NAFPS "So all these demanding entitled questions are pretty irrelevant ".

HEYOKA: No they are not. Any rational person would ask you these questions.

NAFPS: With no proof, the questions about the ethics of sharing this information basically remain the same, and the "right" answer depends on what really happened. If people can't ever be sure of this, we can't ever be sure of the "right" answer. All we can know is one answer is VERY right and another answer is VERY wrong .

HEYOKA: Moma porcupine. The RIGHT answer is to remain silent.

NAFPS: It would be for the wrongly accused to make a complaint to the accuser, not Lekay, who once again is obviously biased because he is accusing people of being liars when he should know he doesn't have all the facts . If he did have all the facts, he would know where all these people heard these stories .

HEYOKA: I was accused of promoting a child molester, so I have the right to ask to see evidence since LaDonna Brave Bull Allard was also libeling me. So where did these people hear these stories?

NAFPS: "Telling someone information you have reason to believe is true which will probably protect peoples safety , IS NOT AT ALL THE SAME as just making it up that someone is a child molester, because they might be"

HEYOKA: This is not about what some one "believes to be true", or their hunch, or gut instinct, or their intuition, their conjectures or their speculation. "Because they might be" is not evidence. You cant convict someone in a court of law on a hunch or what you believe "might be". Some people believe they are the incarnation of Napoleon Bonaparte. Your specious arguments are totally illogical and make no sense. This explains why nafps is such a disaster. Because of belief systems like this. If you have no proof or evidence, then keep your "beliefs and scandalmongery" to yourself.

"Thou shall not bear false witness against your neighbor" This law applies in almost every single culture, religion around the planet.

In the Noble Eightfold Path, this is represented by Right Speech, Right Action and Right Livelihood. Consequently a Buddhist endeavors to abstain from lying, harsh or malicious speech, gossip and tale-bearing.


One giving false evidence or uttering falsehood goes to Raurava hell.

2. Hinduism. Markandeya Puranao

Whoever commits a delinquency or crime, then throws it upon the innocent, has burdened himself with falsehood and a flagrant crime.

3. Islam. Qur'an 4.112

When he is cited and questioned as a witness before a council or a company or amid his relations or amid a guild or a royal family, and is told, "Now, my good man, say what you know," although he does not know, he says, "I know," and although he knows, he says, "I do not know"; although he has not seen, he says, "I saw," and although he has seen, he says, "I did not see." Thus his speech becomes intentional lying either for his own sake or for that of another or for the sake of some material gain or other. And he is a slanderer; having heard something at one place, he makes it known elsewhere for causing variance among those people... In this way he sows discord among those who were in harmony or foments those who were at variance. Discord is his pleasure, his delight, his joy, the motive of his speech.... If this kind of vocal conduct is followed, unskilled states of mind grow much, skilled states of mind decrease.

4. Buddhism. Majjhima Nikaya iii.47-48, Sevitabbaasevitabba Sutta

You who believe, if some perverse man should come up to you with some piece of news, clear up the facts lest you afflict some folk out of ignorance and some morning feel regretful for what you may have done....

You who believe, do not let one folk ridicule another folk. Perhaps they are better than they are. Nor let women mistreat other women; perhaps they are better than themselves. Nor should you find fault with one another nor shout at one another using nicknames; it is bad to use a dirty name instead of one you can believe in. Those who do not turn away from it are wrongdoers.
You who believe, refrain from being overly suspicious: some suspicion is a crime. Do not spy on one another, nor yet any of you slander others. Would one of you like to eat his dead brother's flesh? You would loathe it! Heed God, for God is Relenting, Merciful.

5. Islam. Qur'an 49.6-12


Qur'an 4.112: Cf. Qur'an 4.135, p. 1019. Qur'an 49.6-12: Vv. 6, 11-12.


There are eight faults that men may possess... you must not fail to examine these carefully. To do what is not your business to do is called officiousness. To rush forward when no one has nodded in your direction is called obsequiousness. To echo a man's opinions and try to draw him out in speech is called sycophancy. To speak without regard for what is right and wrong is called flattery. To delight in talking about other men's failings is called calumny. To break up friendships and set kinfolk at odds is called maliciousness. To praise falsely and hypocritically so as to cause injury and evil to others is called wickedness. Without thought for right and wrong, to try to face in two directions at once so as to steal a glimpse of the other party's wishes is called treachery. These eight faults inflict chaos on others and injury on the possessor. A gentleman will not befriend the man who possesses them, an enlightened ruler with not have him for a minister.

6. Taoism. Chuang Tzu 31

You shall not go up and down as a talebearer among your people.

7. Judaism and Christianity. Leviticus 19.16

If the ear does not hear malicious gossip, the heart is not grieved.

8. African Traditional Religions. Yoruba Proverb (Nigeria)

They [young widows] learn to be idlers, gadding about from house to house, and not only idlers but gossips and busybodies, saying what they should not.

9. Christianity. 1 Timothy 5.13

The tongue is an unrighteous world among our members, staining the whole body, setting on fire the cycle of nature, and set on fire by hell. For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and sea creature, can be tamed and has been tamed by humankind, but no human being can tame the tongue--a restless evil, full of deadly poison. With it we bless the Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who are made in the likeness of God.

10. Christianity. James 3.6-9

A person is born with an axe in his mouth. He whose speech is unwholesome cuts himself with his axe.

When a person praises someone who should be blamed, or attacks someone worthy of praise, then this man is accumulating evil with his mouth and this evil will not lead to happiness.
It is little harm if one loses money in gambling with dice, even losing everything, including oneself; but if one bears ill-will towards well-conducted ones it is greater harm indeed. Insulting men of real worth, bearing ill-will in thought and speech, leads to eons upon eons in the states of misery.

11. Buddhism. Sutta Nipata 657-60

A noisy bird builds a bad nest.

12. African Traditional Religions. Kanufi Proverb (Nigeria)

The origin of all trouble
Within this world
Is a single word
Spoken in haste.

13. Shinto. Moritake Arakida, One Hundred Poems About The World

Speak not harshly to anyone. Those thus addressed will retort. Painful, indeed, is vindictive speech. Blows in exchange may bruise you.

14. Buddhism. Dhammapada 133

The Master said, "Where disorder develops, words are the first steps. If the prince is not discreet, he loses his servant. If the servant is not discreet, he loses his life. If germinating things are not handled with discretion, the perfecting of them is impeded."

15. Confucianism. I Ching, Great Commentary 1.8.10

To be always talking is against nature. For the same reason a hurricane never lasts a whole morning, nor a rain storm all day. Who is it that makes the wind and rain? It is Heaven and earth. And if even Heaven and earth cannot blow or pour for long, how much less in his utterances should man?

16. Taoism. Tao Te Ching 23

The Messenger of God... took hold of his tongue and said, "Restrain this." I said, "O Prophet of God, will what we say be held against us?" He said, "May your mother be bereaved of you, Mu`adah! Is there anything that topples people on their faces into hell-fire other than the harvests of their tongues?"

17. Islam. Forty Hadith of an-Nawawi 29

NAFPS: "If you can't tell the difference, you really are one sick puppy "

HEYOKA: This last comment is another emotional and desperate attempt at wining an argument you have just lost. If any one is sick, it is the person making these unsubstantiated and immoral allegations on the internet and the person defending them.



by no right answer
Friday Aug 31st, 2007 7:26 AM
You've just used a lot of words to confuse and obscure the main point - something you do a lot of.

I AM NOT talking about this specific situation, which I know nothing about.

I am talking about this in terms of the general principal of allowing people to warn the public of dangerous people who are posing as medicine people, by reporting unverifiable accounts of abuse on a message board .

Most of the exploitation and fraud that gets posted in NAFPS is proven by information that gets taken directly from the accused's own website .

The only possible legitimate concern about what gets posted on the NAFPS message board, is when people report a of bad first hand experience, or what someone heard through the grape vine. There is always the possibility some of these allegations may not be true, and may wrongly hurt someones reputation.

You still don't see the problem. No matter what earth7 tells you, I don't see how THAT in itself will settle the issue as to whether the allegation is true or not. Which is all that matters.

If someone reads an allegation of abuse on the internet depending on the source it might be evidence, but that isn't proof.

If someone hears about abuse 3rd or 4th hand, it might be evidence, but that isn't proof .

If someone who was abused tells you about this themselves, that is evidence but it isn't proof.
The person might be lying.

If someone witnesses abuse and tells you that is proof to them, but only evidence to you and everyone else, not proof .

The only way the public could verify this sort of information, would be if it had gone to court and the person was found guilty, but I know of people who have done jail time for sexual abuse who's followers still deny they did it.

So out of a group of 20 people who say they were abused, lets say as many as 10 of them can produce strong evidence of this, and 10 can't. Out of the 10 that can't provided any evidence except their word, let's suppose one is lying, the rest are telling the truth and correctly identifying a criminal.

The ethical question is this;

Should all 10 unsubstantiated claims be kept quiet, to protect the reputation of the one wrongly accused ?

Should these 9 perpetrators be left unidentified, which will certainly lead to more victims, in order to protect the reputation of the one wrongly accused ?

I'm not saying I know the "right" answer, and I don't think anyone does. Which is why it seems so completely shallow to act like you do. But of course, this is probably just an excuse to harass NAFPS supporters like earth7.

HEYOKA:
Quote
"I was accused of promoting a child molester, so I have the right to ask to see evidence since LaDonna Brave Bull Allard was also libeling me. So where did these people hear these stories?"

If you were actually concerned about who you promoted in you magazine, you would contact the previously mentioned person who reports hearing first hand accounts, and who left an email, instead of going after earth7. Seems that all you can think of is YOU and the people you imagine insulted YOU. It's NOT all about YOU.

If you want it to be all about YOU maybe you should stick with making crystal skulls and stay out of trying to report on social problems, which aren't all about YOU, though people like YOU certainly
seem to be a contributing factor .
by The answer is yes
Friday Aug 31st, 2007 10:26 AM
NAFPS: "The only possible legitimate concern about what gets posted on the NAFPS message board, is when people report a of bad first hand experience, or what someone heard through the grape vine. There is always the possibility some of these allegations may not be true, and may wrongly hurt someones reputation"

This is exactly what I am saying. No need for you defensiveness. This was not about me. This was about Mala Spotted Eagle. If La Donna Brave Bull. aka, earth 7 is unwilling to come forth with evidence on why she believes Mala Spotted Eagle is a child molester Let any one who reads this decide on why this is.

It is interesting that she is a supporter of Arvol Looking Horse and a severe critic of Looking Back woman???

Re: Suzanne Dupree, aka Looking Back Woman
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2007, 11:23:30 am »
i am sorry but this dupree woman is cracked. The pipe was brought out a couple of weeks ago again. It is still in Green Grass.This woman who parades around in photo with this pipe should know that this is wrong. Even if it is not the White buffalo calf pipe it should be treated with respect. What is wrong with these people. end of quote.
This is concerning Alfred Bone Shirt and others.

Re: Allegations against Arvol Looking Horse
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2007, 03:58:57 pm »
I have to remind people that this SMALL group in Rosebud does not speak for the Lakota Nation When the proclamation first came out it was these people who stood up aganist it. Don't believe everything people post lies and rumor are everywhere. End of quote.
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1296.0

Do you believe that my interviewing Looking Back woman had anything to do with this attack? Why was Jaye LaVallee also attacked for conducting an interview with me?
NAFPS: "The only way the public could verify this sort of information, would be if it had gone to court and the person was found guilty, but I know of people who have done jail time for sexual abuse who's followers still deny they did it."
So why don't you let the courts verify this sort of information. You heard and why she left nafps concerning the attacks on LaValle.

Re: Jimmy La Vallee & Spiritual Warrior Vision
Reply #16 on: June 21, 2007, 05:37:24 pm »weheli
"SO I ASK WHAT IS THIS THREAD ALL ABOUT??? I believe hidden agendas are here, my opionion is that because Mr. Lavlle was interviewed by the Heyoka Magazine is the reason this thread is here! Are we going to take everyone to task that the Magazine has interviewd? Medicine people say leave it alone, if they are doing wrong it will come back to them. SO please leave it alone. Creator WILL take care of what needs to be taken care of, WE are NOT Creator.


NAFPS: "So out of a group of 20 people who say they were abused, lets say as many as 10 of them can produce strong evidence of this, and 10 can't. Out of the 10 that can't provided any evidence except their word, let's suppose one is lying, the rest are telling the truth and correctly identifying a criminal. The ethical question is this; Should all 10 unsubstantiated claims be kept quiet, to protect the reputation of the one wrongly accused ?

Answer. Yes. If you cant substantiate your claims, you are in a extremely difficult position because if you come forward and make allegations, and can not prove it, you can be accused of committing libel and being a malicious gossip. If you do not want to put yourself in that position, have it backfire in your face. the wise thing for you do do is remain silent. Not to post it on the internet where it can easily come back to you haunt you as in this case.

by Personal experience
Friday Aug 31st, 2007 4:20 PM
http://womenshealth.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.rainn.org

Sexual assault is one of the most underreported crimes, with more than half still
being left unreported.

http://womenshealth.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.rainn.org

Why don't more people report their rape?

The most common reason given by victims (23%) is that the rape is a "personal matter."
Another 16% of victims say that they fear reprisal, while about 6% don't report because
they believe that the police are biased.

http://womenshealth.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.rainn.org

Lifetime rate of rape/attempted rape for women, according to the Prevalence,
Incidence and Consequences of Violence Against Women Survey:

* All: 17.6%
* White: 17.7%
* Black: 18.8%
* Asian/Pacific Islander: 6.8%
* American Indian/Alaskan: 34.1%
* Mixed Race: 24.4%

http://womenshealth.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.rainn.org

61% of rapes/sexual assaults are not reported to the police. Those rapists, of course,
never serve a day in prison according to a statistical average of the past five years.

If the rape is reported to police, there is a 50.8% chance that an arrest will be made.

If an arrest is made, there is an 80% chance of prosecution.

If there is a prosecution, there is a 58% chance of a felony conviction.

If there is a felony conviction, there is a 69% chance the convict will spend time in jail.

So, even in the 39% of attacks that are reported to police, there is only a 16.3% chance
the rapist will end up in prison.

Factoring in unreported rapes, about 6% of rapists 1 out of 16 will ever
spend a day in jail.

15 out of 16 will walk free.

http://crime.about.com/od/sex/a/rape_myths.htm

Myth: Women claim rape to get even with men.

False - Although it may happen on rare occasions, false rape charges are on the least
reported crimes, nationwide.

http://womenshealth.about.com/library/usercontent/ucsexassaultaware.htm

Rape, the "silent crime," is the least reported of all crimes. In fact, fewer than twenty
percent of rapes and attempted rapes are ever reported. Some victims are silent because
they are ashamed. Others are afraid - of their attacker, of being judged. Some are simply
too hurt or too angry to speak out.

Sexual assault awareness means increasing public awareness of this "silent" crime. It means
asking ourselves and our communities how we can work together to eliminate sexual violence
and respond to survivors in a way that enables them to heal and regain control of their lives.

by Indian rapes
Friday Aug 31st, 2007 4:42 PM
Yes, have you seen this?

Justice Department: Indian women raped at rate 2.5 times higher than U.S. average
By Jodi Rave.

Norma Rendon has seen too many women blame themselves for being raped. But women need to learn to report the crime to police, she said, and understand that rape is not their fault.

“Too often, they are not being reported,” said Rendon, a women’s advocate at Cangleska, a shelter on Pine Ridge Indian Reservation. “There is so much shame that comes with being a victim.”

Only one in five adult women report being raped to the police.

Although more than 17 million women have been raped in their life, according to a U.S. Department of Justice report for 2006, American Indian women reported the highest number of rapes of any racial or ethnic group in the United States -- a rate 2.5 times higher than the national average.

The FBI reports that women in Alaska, New Mexico, South Dakota, Washington, Minnesota and Colorado are among the most-raped in the country. Each state has a significant population of Native women.

Amnesty International, a worldwide human-rights organization, has spent two years researching sexual assaults in urban and reservation areas. Amnesty officials have scheduled an April 24 news conference at the National Press Club in Washington, D.C. The next day, organization leaders will release a report titled, “USA: Maze of Injustice -- The Failure to Protect Indigenous Women from Sexual Violence.”

A reprieve from the violence seems distant. The 2005 Violence Against Women Act authorized Congress to spend $50 million annually on sexual assault services, which have never been funded.

Meanwhile, women’s advocates agree assault rates continue to climb. Already, one in three Native women will be raped in their lifetime, according to a 1999 report from the Bureau of Justice.

Tess Curley on Montana’s Flathead Reservation is especially concerned at rising numbers of sexual assaults and at the age of victims. Thirty-three percent of women are raped between the ages of 12 and 17.

“It’s increasing more, especially on our reservation,” said Curley, who works for the Confederated Salish and Kootenai Tribes’ crime victim advocate program. “And they are beginning to target our youth. The positive thing is they (girls) are coming in and reporting this more and saying, ‘This happened to me.’ ”

Sexual assault penalties vary state to state. In Montana, a woman who has been raped has 10 years to report it. If a girl or teenager is raped, she has 10 years starting from her 18th birthday.

The Cangleska shelter hired its first, full-time worker in February to work specifically with sexual assault victims on Pine Ridge Indian Reservation, where women have had to drive 120 miles for aid in Rapid City, now ranked fourth in the nation for rapes per capita.

The shelter has since acquired rape kits to collect samples from victims and to fill out reports.

“In many of the cases, they were raped in our border towns,” said Rendon, referring to cities near the reservation. The U.S. Justice Bureau reports that the majority of violent crimes against Indian women are committed by white men.

Not only is it important to report sexual assaults, women should seek a support group, Rendon said. Mothers are also encouraged to consider how physical and sexual assaults against them affects their children.

A National Institute of Justice report shows 64 percent of children had witnessed abuse against their mothers by age 3. Youths ages 12-18 of sexually abused mothers showed more depression and had more behavioral problems than children of mothers who had not been sexually assaulted.

Rebecca St. George, a women’s advocate with Mending the Sacred Hoop in Duluth, Minn., is working with local police on documenting sexual assaults. Although she reaches out to assist women, she also counts herself among the victims.

“I was raped a couple of times,” St. George said. “The first time, I was at a party. I had never had sex before. I went with a guy to his car to get some beer. It was cold in northern Minnesota. He invited me to the front seat of his car and he raped me. I was shocked and confused and didn’t even identify it as rape until three years later.”

The Ojibwe woman said she was raped a second time after drinking too much alcohol and passing out. Rape occurs when sexual intercourse occurs without consent. “It never occurred to me to report any of those to anyone.”

St. George didn’t go to the police, but she said simply reporting it can be therapeutic. “For some women, it’s incredibly healing just to get the guy charged, whether there’s a prosecution or not,” she said. “It’s powerful to make a public statement that, ‘What he did to me is wrong.’”

“By my silence, I certainly allowed them to continue,” she said. “It’s not a guilt thing, but it’s true. I didn’t do anything to stop them from raping the next person.”

by False Allegations
Friday Aug 31st, 2007 4:57 PM
False Allegations
Wrongful Accusations of Rape
© Karen Stephenson

May 14, 2007

Men falsely accused of rape destroy reputations. False allegations occur at an alarming rate. There is no justice for the false accusers.

Rape has several meanings, the lesser known being to seize, take or carry by force; or an act of violation, abuse or plunder. Having that clarification, it can be stated that when men are falsely accused of rape, they become a victim of rape. Their reputation and life as they once knew it has been forcibly seized and emotionally, they have been abused and violated.

False Accusations Exist

In a study that span nine years, sociologist Eugene J. Kanin’s findings were that in the United States, 41% of rape allegations are false. Kanin discovered that most of the false accusers were motivated by a need for an alibi or seeking revenge. Kanin was once popular and highly praised by the feminist movement for his groundbreaking research on male sexual aggression. His studies on false rape accusations have received very little interest.

These findings are not exceptional. The U.S. Air Force studied over five hundred rape accusations in 1985. More than 130 of the accusers admitted, either just before they took a lie detector test or after they had failed it, that no rape occurred. A more in depth investigation by independent reviewers established that 60% of the original rape allegations were a sham.

Linda Fairstein is the head of the New York County District Attorney's Sex Crimes Unit. She states there are a concerning 4,000 reports of rape each year in Manhattan. Of these, about 2,000 did not happen.

In Canada there is little or no justice for falsely accused men. In a small town north of Toronto a woman gave York Region Police a blood stained pair of underwear stating that her ex-husband sexually assaulted their daughter. DNA evidence proved that the woman cut herself and put her blood on the garment. She was fined $25 for public mischief.

Craig Silverman, a former Colorado prosecutor known for his zealous prosecution of rapists during his career, says that false rape accusations occur with "scary frequency.”

The crime of making a false allegation is not exclusive to women. On April 24, 2007 TimesOnline reported that Aftab Ahmed, 44 of Bradford, England was cleared of a false allegation. A teenage girl accused the cab driver of rape in January 2006. Mr Ahmed stated, “The accusations have destroyed my family. It has impacted on myself, my wife and my children. To be accused of rape is the most serious crime in my religion of Islam.” Aftab Ahmed lost everything as a result. The adolescent girl was sentenced to only four months detention.

Women Are Victims Too
Men are not the only victims of women who make false allegations. Women who are the real victims of rape, are further victimized by those who make false accusations. Words and actions by a false accuser rob the real-life victims of rape of badly needed services. These women abuse police, prosecutors and victim group resources, taking time, money and resources away from those who truly need and deserve help.

The Need for Justice

Although legislative amendment is needed, it cannot immediately stop the frequency of false allegations of rape. Society needs strict laws to aid in the education process that no one has the right to make a false allegation.

Rape is an appalling crime. False accusations of rape and the lack of accountability should be just as an intolerable of a crime as physical rape itself.

by Accurate information
Friday Aug 31st, 2007 6:16 PM
I think the information from the Illinois Attorney General is probably most accurate .

False allegations do happen but you should be aware that according to most sources at least 9 times out of 10 the allegations are true , and possibly 19 times out of 20.

http://www.illinoisattorneygeneral.gov/women/SAquiz.pdf.

True or False: Few sexual assaults are reported to police.
True.Approximately 30% of rapes are reported to the police.There are many reasons victims
do not contact police:some victims fear retaliation by the offender;some fear being blamed
for the assault because society often does not support rape survivors;some relive the trauma
each time they have to tell their story and are thus hesitant to talk about it;and some don't
realize what happened was rape

What percentage of sexual assault cases are based on false accusations?
a) most b) less than 10% c) approximately 25% d) about half
b) Only 4-6% of sexual assault cases are based on false accusations.This is the same percent-
age of unsubstantiated cases that we find with many other crimes.

True or False: Most sex offenders are listed on the Illinois Sex Offender Registry.
False.It is estimated that of all rapes (reported and unreported),the conviction rate is less
than 5%.Therefore,the vast majority of sex offenders do not appear on any registry.

http://www.connectionnewspapers.com/article.asp?article=85759&paper=67&cat=104

FALSE SEXUAL ASSAULT reports impact the community and the available resources of local law enforcement, but they are not as prevalent as the media and some reports might suggest. The estimated percent of sexual assault reports that are false vary widely depending on the source. For example, a study by Eugene J. Kanin of Perdue University, examining 109 rape complaints in a Midwestern city from 1978 to 1987, estimates that 41 percent of the complaints were false.
However, the Uniform Crime Reporting Staff of the FBI reported that an average of 5.6 percent of all forcible rape offenses in the nation from 2001 to 2005 were unfounded. A rape case is classified as unfounded if it does not meet the state’s code for rape. The Virginia code asserts that there must be force, threat or intimidation aimed at the victim for the case to be considered rape, says Troxell.

"Unfounded could mean that there’s not enough evidence to move forward in the case or the victim is not cooperating," said Troxell. "It doesn’t necessarily mean that the claims are false."
Many victims’ rights organizations, including the Loudoun Abused Women’s Shelter and G.M.U.’s Sexual Assault Services, thus estimate that 2 percent of all sexual assault reports are false. They argue that this number is no greater than the false claims of other violent crimes, including murder and aggravated assault. "There is the perception that false reports are more common than they really are due to the high publicity of them in the media," said DeLoveh.

by very tired
Friday Aug 31st, 2007 6:57 PM
Here is the thread in NAFPS with allegations about Mala Pope;

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=739.msg3746#msg3746

If you look ( I know that is a challenge for some people ) you will see one of the people
who provided this information is "Leo Van Kints"

Do a search on that, you will find he is or was president of a Native rights group in
Europe ;

http://home.hccnet.nl/g.suurmond/maria.html

http://nanai.nl/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=47&Itemid=54

So there is the "source" of some of the allegations and "rumors".

Patrick Quinn mentioned above might be another source of information

Of course, these people aren't prominently involved in the protection of
ceremonies, so Lekay supporters might not have any interest in discrediting
them, by leading people to believe they are nothing but malicious gossips .
by hung out to dry
Friday Aug 31st, 2007 8:46 PM
Email posted on nafps.
"years advising him (Leo) that she no longer will have anything to do with Mala and asking him to PLEASE help stop Mala from having any more ceremonies here in Holland.  At one time this woman had planned on moving to Oregon to live at the center there and has always been one of his greatest supporters

Mala has been recently been accused of severe intimidate of many women.  It seems that he forced several women to allow him to performed IK "healings" on them - this resulted in charges of abuse by 4 women, two of these women have also filed charges of rape.  According to her there is one women in intensive psychological therapy in Austria due to this abuse. This woman is very terrified of what he is going to do to her.  He threatened that if any of them ever told what happened  terrible things would happen to them'. End of quote.


This is a very disturbing email, but Mala Spotted Eagle said this woman was a disgruntled employee that was let go. Who knows who is telling the truth. This is the problem. He also said no charges of rape were never filed. Im sure this can be verified by contacting the authorities in Holland or someone like Leo in Holland investigating this since he put this out there.
This is third hand information.

Do not see any names of who accused him, dates, times, court case records, police reports. These accusations are very vague. Why don't these woman come forward with their names, addresses etc. Why have another post this message for them. if this is true, who are these mysterious ghost women.

This is the problem with this email. It could also have been a political enemy or a woman scorned. Some one out for revenge like he said it was. Maybe someone is envious of him. All these possibilities need to be ruled out.

What nafps have done is put out just enough info out there to destroy his reputation but not enough to make this case clear either way. Its beginning a case but leaving it unfinished. It looks like he is deliberately being left and hung out to dry.

I also do not see any mention of molesting children.

by hung out to dry
Friday Aug 31st, 2007 8:47 PM
Email posted on nafps.
"years advising him (Leo) that she no longer will have anything to do with Mala and asking him to PLEASE help stop Mala from having any more ceremonies here in Holland.  At one time this woman had planned on moving to Oregon to live at the center there and has always been one of his greatest supporters

Mala has been recently been accused of severe intimidate of many women.  It seems that he forced several women to allow him to performed IK "healings" on them - this resulted in charges of abuse by 4 women, two of these women have also filed charges of rape.  According to her there is one women in intensive psychological therapy in Austria due to this abuse. This woman is very terrified of what he is going to do to her.  He threatened that if any of them ever told what happened  terrible things would happen to them'. End of quote.


This is a very disturbing email, but Mala Spotted Eagle said this woman was a disgruntled employee that was let go. Who knows who is telling the truth. This is the problem. He also said no charges of rape were never filed. Im sure this can be verified by contacting the authorities in Holland or someone like Leo in Holland investigating this since he put this out there.
This is third hand information.

Do not see any names of who accused him, dates, times, court case records, police reports. These accusations are very vague. Why don't these woman come forward with their names, addresses etc. Why have another post this message for them. if this is true, who are these mysterious ghost women.

This is the problem with this email. It could also have been a political enemy or a woman scorned. Some one out for revenge like he said it was. Maybe someone is envious of him. All these possibilities need to be ruled out.

What nafps have done is put out just enough info out there to destroy his reputation but not enough to make this case clear either way. Its beginning a case but leaving it unfinished. It looks like he is deliberately being left and hung out to dry.

I also do not see any mention of molesting children.

by Charges
Friday Aug 31st, 2007 10:33 PM
I checked the records, there are no sexual assault or rape charges in Oregon concerning Mala Spotted Eagle on the record.

This was the definition of the charge 7 years ago.
http://forum.freeadvice.com/archive/index.php/t-221392.html

Check your self.
http://www.orcourtsonline.com/
Phone: 503-378-3725 Ext. 44429
You have to pay for records
by Not credible
Friday Aug 31st, 2007 10:49 PM

This Patrick Quinn character, (who ever he is) unless he can prove there are rape charges pending in Oregon, or Europe. I think he is in a tough position like La Donna Brave Bull and her child molestation accusations.

Is Patrick Quinn A nafps member like LaDonna Brave Bull Allard? Who is he? What is he?

by Learn to read
Sunday Sep 2nd, 2007 11:47 AM
PATRICK QUINN
by Not credible
Friday Aug 31st, 2007 10:49 PM

"This Patrick Quinn character, (who ever he is) unless he can prove there are rape charges pending in Oregon, or Europe. I think he is in a tough position like La Donna Brave Bull and her child molestation accusations. "

If you can't read with comprehension, you really should refrain from getting involved in things which require this skill .

The only person I see who has accused Mala Pope of RAPE, appears to be John Lekay or one of his supporters .

What was said by Patrick Quinn is ;
Quote
"I know for a fact that there are charges of sexual misconduct pending against him in several foreign countries. Austria and Holland at least."

A charge of sexual misconduct is very different than a charge of "rape".

The definition of the terms seems to differ from state to state ;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_misconduct

"In legal sense, for a person in a position of authority it includes in particular any sexual activity between him or her and one of his or her subordinates. This commonly includes teachers and their students, doctors and their patients, and employers and their employees. While such activity is usually not explicitly illegal, it is often against professional codes of ethics."

For example , a psychotherapist who had a sexual relationship with a client, would in some jurisdictions, be considered to have engaged in "sexual misconduct".

In Oregon , the age of consent for any sexual relationship is 18 See the definition of sexual abuse in the State of Oregon , below ;

http://www.moraloutrage.net/staticpages/index.php?page=Oregon

"163.415 Sexual abuse in the third degree. (1) A person commits the crime of sexual abuse in the third degree if the person subjects another person to sexual contact and:

(a) The victim does not consent to the sexual contact; or

(b) The victim is incapable of consent by reason of being under 18 years of age"

I don't see where any of the allegations against Mala Pope use the word "rape", except the supporters of John Lekay, who once again demonstrate their complete inability to read .

If these folks want to insist other people don't know what they are talking about, at least they should stop wasting peoples time by making sure they first get their basic facts straight.
by Then read this
Sunday Sep 2nd, 2007 12:45 PM

NAFPS: "I don't see where any of the allegations against Mala Pope use the word "rape", except the supporters of John Lekay, who once again demonstrate their complete inability to read"

You mean you should learn how to read. See this on nafps. How do you explain this?

A} Mon May 15, 2006 1:16 pm Subject: Abuse warning Tonight Leo received a message from a woman. "It seems that he forced several women to allow him to performed IK "healings" on them - this resulted in charges of abuse by 4 women, two of these women have also filed charges of rape. end of quote.
"http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=739.0

1. Where are these charges of European rape? Police Records and files.

2. Who are these 4 mysterious anonymous women?

Why don't you prove these charges in Europe exist since you allowed these to be posted on nafps?

Moma porcupine: "The people who have passed on these serious allegations have used their real name and can be verified to be who they are. They obviously beleived what they passed on to be true , and were willing to stand behind their words . If you want to counterbalance this , you also need to provide the names of people who can be verified to be real , credible , and who can be contacted . It would also help if the people you name who can counter these accusations, could be shown to have no personal intrest in supporting or promoting Mala Pope, and if these named people could be verified to be respected within the Native community " http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=739.0

Then where are the names of these victims? This info was passed on to this Leo character. Anyone could have made this up and contacted him for him to pass along to nafps. Why hasn't Leo said who these women are?

B. He was called a child molester by LaDonna Brave Bull
This was poster on indianz.com
earthw7
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I know what you are talking about Dr. carroll. I have been watch this guy Lekay and his little magizine. He has promoted a child molester as a medicine man in the past.
I was surprised to get an email like this and it is a little funny.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.standingrocktourism.com

MEANING OF RAPE

Rape is a form of assault where one individual forces another to have sexual intercourse against that person’s will. Most experts believe the primary cause of rape is an aggressive desire to dominate the victim rather than an attempt to achieve sexual fulfillment. They consider rape an act of violence rather than principally a sexual encounter.

Rape is generally considered one of the most serious sex crimes and can be very difficult to prosecute. Sexual violence can also be a war crime under international law. Consent may be absent due to duress arising from the use, or threat, of overwhelming force or violence, or because the subject is incapacitated in some way such as intoxication or being underage. In some cases coercion might also be used to negate consent.

There is no universally accepted distinction between rape and other forms of assault involving one or both participant's sexual organs. Some criminal codes explicitly consider all kinds of forced sexual activity to be rape, whereas in others only acts involving penis penetration of the vagina. Many restrict rape to instances where a woman is forced by a man. In recent years some women have been convicted of raping men; this is classed as either rape or sexual assault. In some jurisdictions rape may also be committed by assailants using objects, rather than their own body parts, against the sexual organs of their target.


by Where are his facts
Sunday Sep 2nd, 2007 1:32 PM
What was said by Patrick Quinn is ; Quote "I know for a fact that there are charges of sexual misconduct pending against him in several foreign countries. Austria and Holland at least."

Then if he is so sure, then why doesn't he show us these "facts". What is he waiting for?

PATRICK QUINN: There is also an ongoing investigation about Pope in Veneta County Oregon due to abuse complaints filed by several women at that fair. (it's about 15 miles west of Eugene in Lane County.)

No there is not. There no no records in Oregon concerning any sexual abuse. This is false information.

Who is Patrick Quinn? What is his telephone number where he can be reached. A lawyer may wish to speak with him.
by Do some research .
Sunday Sep 2nd, 2007 3:07 PM
Yes, now I see where Leo used the word rape . Patrick Quinn did not say this , as you wrongly alleged.

Have you tried to email Patrick Quinn ? He did leave a way to contact him in his post .

If you haven't contacted him , and asked if he can provide you with any references , why do you feel you have enough information to say he has no credibility ?

If there was an investigation and pending charges , I'm not sure there would be any public record of this.

Who exactly did you contact, that told you there was no problem ?

Quoting Patrick
"There is also an ongoing investigation about Pope in Veneta County Oregon due to abuse complaints filed by several women at that fair. (it's about 15 miles west of Eugene in Lane County.) "

Below is the email . If you contact the organizers and they tell you there was no complaints, maybe you would give the name of the person who said this, and their contact information, so people can verify this.

office[at]oregoncountryfair.org

Have you tried to contact Leo Van Kint ? The NANAI site he is connected with has a contact number .

You ask;
"Why hasn't Leo said who these women are?"

If you would just read what is in front of you , the email posted in NAFPS says ;

"He threatened that if any of them ever told what happened terrible things would happen to them."

"This woman and several other have asked Leo to call them as they are afraid to even write some of what they want to tell. "

If this is true , this is a valid reason to protect the identities of the woman who made these complaints.

It can be really difficult to sort out who is telling the truth in a situation like this, and often people who were abused can't prove this . Whatever the case may be, I would think you would have at least made an effort to make sure you had heard both sides of the story, before you began accusing people of lying , and being irresponsible malicious gossips . Your saying a lawyer may want to talk to Patrick Quinn seems like you are trying to intimidate people into silence by threatening them with lawsuits, when you haven't even investigated both sides of the story .

Wanting to make sure no one has been unfairly accused is all well and good, but have you actually made an effort to talk to these people, to hear the other side of this ? Or do you just think it is OK to discredit the people who statistically speaking are likely to be the victims, and statistically speaking are likely to be telling the truth, just because you personally sympathize with the accused ? If you haven't investigated both sides of this, how can you justify your behavior as ethical?

by Irrisponsible
Sunday Sep 2nd, 2007 5:56 PM
You are asking the wrong people to do all this research. Why didn't you contact Leo Van Klints and confirm whether rape charges had ever been filed in Europe before you posted the email. Check this out yourself first? This is a mistake by nafps. By not doing your reserch and confirming these charges, nafps have left Mala Spotted Eagle twisting in the wind for almost 6 months. Anyone anonymously can make these accusations and cause irreparable damage. Then what? What if these accusations are false?

Why do you think its ok to post unsubstantiated anonymous claims or claims that can never be verified? If these woman are too afraid to come forward, like Leo Van Klints has stated, or face the consequences, to provide first hand accounts, then they should not ask another to make their allegations for them. These allegations should not be posted. Leo Van Klints should not be a spokesperson for anonymous people.

Why do you think there are laws and courts? So people get a fair trial.

NAFPS: "It can be really difficult to sort out who is telling the truth in a situation like this, and often people who were abused can't prove this."

Then if the truth is "really difficult to sort out" and they cannot prove it, then nafps should not post these accusations on the internet.

Mala Spotted Eagle has said there are no sexual assault charges or investigations and that this is all the lies of one disgruntled employee that was fired for being disruptive. Can you prove this is other wise?

by Contacted
Sunday Sep 2nd, 2007 6:54 PM
NAFPS: "Wanting to make sure no one has been unfairly accused is all well and good, but have you actually made an effort to talk to these people, to hear the other side of this ? Or do you just think it is OK to discredit the people who statistically speaking are likely to be the victims, and statistically speaking are likely to be telling the truth, just because you personally sympathize with the accused ? If you haven't investigated both sides of this, how can you justify your behavior as ethical?

This is not about personally sympathizing with the accused. I have made the efforts and have already contacted Mala Spotted Eagle and he told me that no charges had ever been filed against him. I have also contacted both Leo Van Klints and the Oregon fair and waiting for these people to get back to me.

As far as Patrick Quinn is concerned. This is just hearsay. Unless he works for the police department and has this police report there is no sense in contacting him.

He stated. "I’ve heard lots of things about his disrespect for women at various pow wows. I’ve heard many ndn women tell that some of his healings are sexually inappropriate and that he uses his imagined status as a medicine man to try to force women to engage in sex acts with him"

This other information can be confirmed through the Oregon police department and the police in Holland and Austria.

However, non of this explains why he was called a child molester by LaDonna Brave Bull?
by Wendy McElroy
Sunday Sep 2nd, 2007 8:51 PM
False Rape Accusations May Be More Common Than Thought

Is it the new 1-in-4 statistic?
I don't mean the widely-circulated '1-in-4 women will be raped in their lifetime' but a statistic that suggests '1-in-4 accusations of rape are false.'

For a long time, I have been bothered by the elusiveness of figures on the prevalence of false accusations of sexual assault. The crime of 'bearing false witness' is rarely tracked or punished, and the context in which it is usually raised is highly politicized.

Politically correct feminists claim false rape accusations are rare and account for only 2 percent of all reports. Men's rights sites point to research that places the rate as high as 41 percent. These are wildly disparate figures that cannot be reconciled.

This week I stumbled over a passage in a 1996 study published by the U.S. Department of Justice: Convicted by Juries, Exonerated by Science: Case Studies in the Use of DNA Evidence to Establish Innocence After Trial.

(The study documents 28 cases which, "with the exception of one young man of limited mental capacity who pleaded guilty," consist of individuals who were convicted by juries and, then, later exonerated by DNA tests.

At the time of release, they had each served an average of 7 years in prison.
The passage that riveted my attention was a quote from Peter Neufeld and Barry C. Scheck, prominent criminal attorneys and co-founders of the Innocence Project that seeks to release those falsely imprisoned.

They stated, "Every year since 1989, in about 25 percent of the sexual assault cases referred to the FBI where results could be obtained, the primary suspect has been excluded by forensic DNA testing. Specifically, FBI officials report that out of roughly 10,000 sexual assault cases since 1989, about 2,000 tests have been inconclusive, about 2,000 tests have excluded the primary suspect, and about 6,000 have "matched" or included the primary suspect."

The authors continued, "these percentages have remained constant for 7 years, and the National Institute of Justice's informal survey of private laboratories reveals a strikingly similar 26 percent exclusion rate."

If the foregoing results can be extrapolated, then the rate of false reports is roughly between 20 (if DNA excludes an accused) to 40 percent (if inconclusive DNA is added). The relatively low estimate of 25 to 26 percent is probably accurate, especially since it is supported by other sources.

Before analyzing the competing figures, however, caveats about the one just mentioned are necessary.

First, the category of 'false accusations' does not distinguish between accusers who lie and those who are honestly mistaken. Nor does it indicate that a rape did not occur, merely that the specific accused is innocent.

Thus, there is a drive by voices for reform, like the Innocence Institute, to improve eyewitness identification techniques within police departments.

For example, the Innocence Institute suggests "Police should use a 'double-blind' photo identification procedure where someone other than the investigator -- who does not know who the suspect is -- constructs photo arrays with non-suspects as fillers to reduce suggestiveness."
Second, even if false accusations are as common as 1-in-4, that means 75 percent of reports are probably accurate and, so, all accusations deserve a thorough and professional investigation.
Third, the 1-in-4 figure has 'fuzzy' aspects that could influence the results. For example, Neufeld and Scheck mention only sexual assault cases that were "referred to the FBI where results could be obtained."

It is not clear what percentage of all reported assaults are represented by those cases. As well, the terms 'rape' and 'sexual assault' are often used interchangeably, especially when comparing studies, and it is not clear that they are always synonyms for each other.

Nevertheless, the FBI data on excluded DNA is as close to hard statistics that I've found on the rate of false accusations of sexual assault.

Where do the other figures come from and why is there reason to doubt them? Let me consider the two statistics that I have encountered most often.

"Two percent of all reports are false."

Several years ago, I tried to track down the origin of this much-cited stat. The first instance I found of the figure was in Susan Brownmiller's book on sexual assault entitled "Against Our Will" (1975). Brownmiller claimed that false accusations in New York City had dropped to 2 percent after police departments began using policewomen to interview alleged victims.

Elsewhere, the two percent figure appears without citation or with only a vague attribution to "FBI" sources. Although the figure shows up in legislation such as the Violence Against Women Act, legal scholar Michelle Anderson of Villanova University Law School reported in 2004, "no study has ever been published which sets forth an evidentiary basis for the two percent false rape complaint thesis."

In short, there is no reason to credit that figure.

"Forty-one percent of all reports are false."
This claim comes from a study conducted by Eugene J. Kanin of Purdue University. Kanin examined 109 rape complaints registered in a Midwestern city from 1978 to 1987.

Of these, 45 were ultimately classified by the police as "false." Also based on police records, Kanin determined that 50 percent of the rapes reported at two major universities were "false."
Although Kanin offers solid research, I would need to see more studies with different populations before accepting the figure of 50 percent as prevalent; to me, the figure seems high.

But even a skeptic like me must credit a DNA exclusion rate of 20 percent that remained constant over several years when conducted by FBI labs. This is especially true when 20 percent more were found to be questionable.

False accusations are not rare. They are common.

Wendy McElroy is the editor of ifeminists.com and a research fellow for The Independent Institute in Oakland, Calif. She is the author and editor of many books and articles, including the new book, "Liberty for Women: Freedom and Feminism in the 21st Century" (Ivan R. Dee/Independent Institute, 2002). She lives with her husband in Canada.
by Jim Hines
Sunday Sep 2nd, 2007 8:56 PM
False Accusations

It's the question that comes up at almost every rape awareness presentation I've ever done. It's almost always a man who asks, though I've had women ask as well: "What about when a girl lies about rape to get back at a man?"


This is usually followed by a personal story about a friend who were falsely accused, and the damage his reputation suffered as a result.


I think one of the things that scares people is the arbitrariness of the charge. In theory, anyone could make a false accusation. Rape is a crime that often leaves little or no evidence. Maybe the girl originally consented, then decided the next day that it was rape. Maybe she's making it up so she won't look like a slut.


Regardless of the motivation, false accusations scare us. We worry about our reputation. What will our family think? We'll be condemned without a trial. Take Craig Fry, a special education teacher from Leslie, Michigan who was charged with three counts of criminal sexual conduct. The charges were dropped when it was discovered the teenager who made the accusation had lied. She has now been charged and sentenced for the false accusation, but what of Craig Fry? His name appeared in the Lansing State Journal on numerous occasions. He was dragged through the court system. Mr. Fry died in June of a heart attack. The State Journal quotes Mr. Fry's fiancé as saying the false charges "took their toll on him."


This is a horrible position to be in, and I can't imagine the fear, humiliation, and shame Craig Fry and his family endured throughout this process.


But I also know that this case has received more attention in the local news than any other rape case in recent years (with the exception of the Kobe Bryant case). Why is that? Why is a false accusation sensational enough to earn ongoing, in-depth coverage when the average rape gets a single article or a brief mention on TV?


I think it's because we're afraid. I've had men attend rape education seminars with the sole purpose of learning how to protect themselves from manipulative, blackmailing, vindictive women who would "play the rape card," as one Michigan State University student wrote a few years back. As the Craig Fry case demonstrates, it happens. This is a valid fear.


But is it a realistic one? In Susan Brownmiller's Against Our Will, she says that only 2% of reported rapes turn out to be false, the same rate as other crimes. In other words, there's no more reason to fear a false accusation of rape than there is a false accusation of car theft.


Some people question that figure. So-called "Men's Rights" organizations often sponsor and publish studies that show 50% or more reported rapes are false. Careful reading shows these studies to be highly inflated. For instance, they rely on police statistics regarding unfounded reports. However, unfounded includes those reports which the police decide are not strong enough to press charges and make an arrest. It doesn't mean the accusation is false, simply that there isn't enough evidence to move forward. Unfortunately, given the nature of rape, this is a common occurrence.


A report in the Columbia Journalism Review finds the rate of false reports to be closer to 8%, according to the FBI (Haws, 1997). Let's go with that number, roughly one in ten, as a nice middle ground.


Of course, only a few rapes are ever reported. The 1999 National Crime Victims Survey estimated that only about one third of sexual assaults are ever reported. Other studies find far lower numbers, but we'll go with one in three. Do the math. 1 in 10 reported rapes are false. Only 1 in 3 are ever reported. In other words, for every false report of rape, you're looking at twenty-nine true rapes.

But those false reports are what so many of us fear. Not that the men and women we love have a very good chance of being one of those twenty-nine victims. No, we're afraid of that false accusation that will ruin our lives.


It's easier to dwell on the false accusations. Rape is a horrible thing, and it's not something we like to think about. It's easier to assume a woman is making it up than it is to think about what she might have gone through.

So we're afraid. We worry about becoming the next Craig Fry. We cringe inside when we read about all of these rapes on campus, because what happens if some girl gets the idea to punish us that way?


It happens. It's a legitimate fear. But it's not one I've got a lot of sympathy for. Not compared to the people who lived every night in fear that their father, mother, or some other relative would come in and molest them. Not compared to the women who struggled through fear, violation, and helplessness after a boy they trusted turned out to be a rapist. Not compared to the vast number of men and women who did speak out about their victimization, only to be labeled liars and sluts.


Let me make one last point. As tragic as Craig Fry's case is, the system eventually worked. He was vindicated, and his accuser was arrested and sentenced.


If only the system worked half as well for victims of rape....



by Karen Stephenson
Sunday Sep 2nd, 2007 9:02 PM


Rape is an appalling crime. False accusations of rape and the lack of accountability should be just as an intolerable of a crime as physical rape itself.

by Elizabeth
Monday Sep 3rd, 2007 9:06 AM
John check this out. Al Carroll is at it again. This is in reference to a person going by the name of one moon on nafps. It looks like anyone who disagrees with them gets labeled you.

This person said this about Thomas Lightening Bolt: When I met him, he didn't say anything about why he was up there in Washington State. He didn't brag about anything, infact he didn't say anything about medicine. I think you are jumping to conclusions when using the word "Brag".

[Al's note: "One Moon" is actually John Lekay, yet again doing a very poor imitation of an NDN. He's been banned yet again as a troll, for spamming.]

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=87a1c15546475f6130f9316d8756463a&topic=1194.msg7910#new


by Al Carroll
Monday Sep 3rd, 2007 9:58 AM
Quite Fasinating. Not surprised at all. Would expect more of this in the future.

Check this out.

Paranoid Personality Disorder is a condition characterized by excessive distrust and suspiciousness of others. This disorder is only diagnosed when these behaviors become persistent and very disabling or distressing. This disorder should not be diagnosed if the distrust and suspiciousness occurs exclusively during the course of Schizophrenia, a Mood Disorder With Psychotic Features, or another Psychotic Disorder or if it is due to the direct physiological effects of a neurological (e.g., temporal lobe epilepsy) or other general medical condition.

Complications:

Individuals with this disorder are generally difficult to get along with and often have problems with close relationships because of their excessive suspiciousness and hostility. Their combative and suspicious nature may elicit a hostile response in others, which then serves to confirm their original expectations. Individuals with this disorder have a need to have a high degree of control over those around them. They are often rigid, critical of others, and unable to collaborate, although they have great difficulty accepting criticism themselves. They often become involved in legal disputes. They may exhibit thinly hidden, unrealistic grandiose fantasies, are often attuned to issues of power and rank, and tend to develop negative stereotypes of others, particularly those from population groups distinct from their own. More severely affected individuals with this disorder may be perceived by others as "fanatics" and form tightly knit "cults' or groups with others who share their paranoid beliefs.
by This line
Monday Sep 3rd, 2007 10:29 AM
Read this line.

"More severely affected individuals with this disorder may be perceived by others as "fanatics" and form tightly knit "cults' or groups with others who share their paranoid beliefs."

Looks like Moma Porcupine has a similar belief. But sounds like she/he is being more carefull.

"One Moon does seem to have similar intrests to John Lekay ... I was wondering if they were the same person or affiliated"

Uses the word "wondering". Very interesting indeed. You watch anyone who ever disagrees with them will be banned and said its John LeKay. Find it shocking cetan was not banned as well for being John LeKay.

by Hostile response
Monday Sep 3rd, 2007 8:37 PM
Yes its a self fulfilling prophecy.

"Their combative and suspicious nature may elicit a hostile response in others, which then serves to confirm their original expectations."

by You left out some stuff
Tuesday Sep 4th, 2007 7:45 AM
You neglected to show that the person recently banned was also interested in defending
Mala Pope .

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=739.0

Reply #4 on: September 02, 2007, 01:49:32 am »
One Moon
Quote
"I know Malla. The allegations against him were false, a total lie. The woman who started
the lies did so after he fired her from a job, and later she admitted to me the allegations
were false. There were never any charges ever brought against him. "

I thought nafps response was reasonable .

Reply #5 on: September 02, 2007, 09:58:31 am
Moma_porcupine
Quote
"The people who have passed on these serious allegations have used their real name
and can be verified to be who they are. They obviously beleived what they passed on
to be true , and were willing to stand behind their words . If you want to counterbalance
this , you also need to provide the names of people who can be verified to be real ,
credible , and who can be contacted . It would also help if the people you name who
can counter these accusations, could be shown to have no personal intrest in supporting
or promoting Mala Pope, and if these named people could be verified to be respected
within the Native community . "

You also neglected to show the post that got One Moon banned.

Barnaby McEwen asked One Moon to introduce themselves . Here is their response;

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1295.0

Reply #8 Sept 3
One Moon
Quote
"Hi, I would love to introduce my self but cant figure this comluter stuff out (I'm a
plant person!)! I went to that link, but cant get anywhere. Sorry...."

One Moon knew how to start the topic on Harner and make posts . Seems reasonable
to assume if they were sincere, they would have introduced themselves.

It says in the nafps policy that all new members are asked to read ;

"It is your responsibility to present accurate information. Any information we deem
inaccurate or vulgar will be removed. ANYONE WHO MISREPRESENTS THEMSELVES
MAY BE REMOVED."
by More facts
Tuesday Sep 4th, 2007 9:50 AM
Patrick Quinn
quote
"Unfortunately, sexual abuse is common among people pretending to be ndn medicine
men. That’s why it is vital that ndns be able to warn the public about the dangers of
becoming involved with fakes. New Age ndn operations like this are rife with fraud
and sexual abuse is a common thing."

This is true .

This is why;

http://www.amnestyusa.org/amnestynow/soulwound.html

"Dolphus, now director of the South Dakota Coalition Against Sexual and Domestic
Violence, sees boarding school policies as the central route through which sexual
abuse became entrenched in Native communities, as many victims became molesters
themselves. Hopi tribe members testified at a 1989 Senate hearing that some of Boone's
victims had become sex abusers; others had become suicidal or alcoholic."

"Before colonization, Native women generally enjoyed high status, according to
scholars, and violence against women, children, and elders was virtually non-existent.
Today, sexual abuse and violence have reached epidemic proportions in Native
communities..."

http://www.calss.utoronto.ca/pamphlets/sexual_assault.htm

"Sexual assault is not about needing a sexual outlet, but rather about the need
to exert power, control, and humiliation over another."

Introduction to Forensic Psychology
By Curt R. Bartol, Anne M. Bartol

"Sexual gratification is often not the primary reason, whereas desire for control,
power and dominance frequently is."

Being a "medicine man " with a non native following offers a position of power and
dominance. This position is available to almost any ndn willing to play the part . Non
native people don't know what the real thing is supposed to look like, so no real
qualifications are required .

This position of power is very enticing and does attract people who are looking for control ,
power and dominance . For people who were abused and dominated by White people, the opportunity to have this power over White people, can be very tempting .

It is not uncommon for this to become abusive .

From personal experience I would say 1/2 of all the "medicine men " I have heard of ,
who are of Native descent , who have gravitated to non native followers, have reputations
for sexual misconduct, and 1/10 or more have reputations for sexual assault .

This doesn't mean Mala Pope deserves the reputation he has, but the behavior he is
accused of, is very common .
Dr. Al Carrol nor NAFPS has any First Nation affiliation nor any tribal affiliation. They have misused their opportunities with their website to run abusive campaigns against anyone they dislike or disapprove. This includes bonafide Native American Spiritual leaders or cerimonial leaders that include non-Natives in their practices. NAFPS has no entitlement to claim any authority or special knowledge of who and what has rights to Native America they have shown by their own behavior that they cannot be trusted to honestly live up to their self proclaimed mandate to abuse only non-Natives and call real Native Spiritual leaders frauds.
by to a T
Tuesday Sep 4th, 2007 4:54 PM
"Sexual assault is not about needing a sexual outlet, but rather about the need
to exert power, control, and humiliation over another."

"Sexual gratification is often not the primary reason, whereas desire for control,
power and dominance frequently is."

Sounds like nafps to a T !

Being a "Mescalero Apache" to a non native following offers a position of power and
dominance. This position is available to almost any Mexican who has studied Native American history willing to play the part . Non
native people don't know what the real thing is supposed to look like, so no real
qualifications are required .

This position of power is very enticing and does attract people who are looking for control ,
power and dominance . For people who were sexually abused by a "medicine man" the opportunity to have this power over anybody practicing "medicine" can be very tempting .

It is not uncommon for this to become abusive .

NAFPS sounds like an NDN Nader's Raider's to me.
John LeKay sounds like Karl Rove.

Ralfph wears a cheap suit.

One can only guess how much MONEY John LeKay has made by promoting frauds.


NAFPS is a consumer advocacy group. How anyone could think that an intelligent person would accept this ludicrous (and frankly extremely misogynist and right wing) analogy is beyond me.

People who EXPLOIT Native American Spirituality for profit bring in more money than pornography. These people are bringing in vast amounts of money and have every reason to use this specious rhetoric to justify their continued exploitation.

The amount of effort that unscrupulous individuals like Martin and LeKay will go to
to support these frauds is very telling. If these businesses were legitimate, they would not have to resort to the extreme tactics I see here. The posts defending such well know frauds as Mala Spotted Eagle look like they were written by Karl Rove himself. They exactly parallel the Neo-Con strategy of demonizing anyone who is critical of the existing power structure.

MONEY IS POWER IN THIS SOCIETY
The exploitation of Native American Spirituality is about COLONIAL POWER
It's about people who have no understanding of Native American Spiritual principles, marketing them for money. It doesn't have anything to do with one's DNA it has to do with greed, ego and the desire for easy money. There is no easier or more lucrative living than setting oneself up as a spiritual guru and looking for ignorant and gullible people to bilk.


What reason would anyone have to falsely accuse these OBVIOUS frauds. Anyone who knows the first thing about Native American Spirituality knows that ANYONE who is trying to sell it and distribute it to Europe and Australia is a fraud. Anyone who has even the slightest knowledge about Native Spirituality knows that it cannot be found in Lewellyn books, in workshops or in pricey tourists weekends conducted by people who have never even set foot on a reservation.

Native American spiritual elders are with THEIR people on the reservations. They aren't traveling around the country asking for money to parrot vapid, trite New Age cliches.

Most wannabes would not be interested in authentic Native American spiritutality - it's just too difficult for spoiled Amerikan con$umers.

Accusing Al Carrol (who is really the Ralph Nader of the NDN community) of being a fraud is exactly like Rush Limbaugh or Bill O'Reilly accusing liberals of all the nasty things the

LeKay is a fraud. He's not "good intentioned". His magazine is glossy trash. He has nothing to say and he is only interested in keeping people who have something to say from saying it.

All the phonies and their shills who post here are pretty transparent. I doubt that there are more than three of four people posting in support of LeKay and his frauds. They amount of effort they put into concocting silly arguments and they lengths that they will go to demonize anyone with intelligence enough to see through their ridiculous mascarade is telling. Intelligent people will figure it out. Wannabees will continue to live in their comfortable fantasy world where they don't have to assume any responsiblity for the racist, misogynist society they benefit from.

The New Age Frauds and the Neo-Cons will continue to use the same hackneyed arguments and to trot out the same sensational charges against anyong who dares to think skeptically and for themselves.

It's just the same old song and dance ....

Weapons of mass distraction

It might be interesting to do an expose on the millions and millions of dollars that LeKay's old friend, Mala Spotted Eagle Pope has collected for his yuppie compounds all over the world.

How much POWER does all that cash bring someone?
Wouldn't someone interested in POWER do something like shut down a website that criticized him?

Why hasn't the IRS investigated his several non-profit scams Nanish Shonte, Poo-Ha-Baa, the Institute of Deep Ecology and Shundahai Network?

How much power does this guy have?

Why isn't he forthcoming about why he needs all this money?

Why does he need to have all these instituttions collecting so much money?

Why doesn't he post his income on his silly website and state exactly where all the money goes?

And what I would really like to know is that if Mala Spotted Eagle is an "elder from the Western Shoshone" Nations, why haven't we heard of him????

How can the Shoshone people have an elder that we've never met?

by Bona Fides In Their Own Words
Sunday Jan 6th, 2008 1:52 PM
From Bernard Red Cherries jr (bredcherries at yahoo.com), 4 June 2004:

Quarterly Meeting of the Inter-Tribal Protection Coalition, to Protect and Preserve Sacred Sundance, and related spiritual Practices of Native Americans. This meeting will be hosted by the Southern Cheyenne and Southern Arapahoe Nations, of whom are members of the Coalition. For more information please contact Chester Whiteman 405-884-5586, William Lee Pedro 405-422-1725. The meeting dates are June 19th & 20th Sunrise Sweat and Prayer Ceremony. Important topics are, enforcement of current legislation ie., American Indian religious Freedom Act, how can we better "Understand its meaning", how it is currently manipulated in conjunction with the Constitutional right to Religion by Non-Natives. At issue currently is the Sundance at Hoosier National Forrest, in Bloomington, Indiana. A supposed Lakota Sundance run by a non-native, this supposed Lakota Sundance ceremony is allowed under a special use agreement with the National park services and a special use permit was again authorized by the National Park service to this non-native, fears are that this will open a "Flood-gate" for other non-natives to follow suit. Questions and concerns" What impacts can this cause for us in Indian Country", will this non-native individual and others like him "Become keepers of our ceremonies and links to the past for our future generations?", how can we address this concern and others like it, and still respect the boundries of our Traditions and customs of our respective Nations. Who do we turn to for resolve? What has National Congress Of American Indians involvment been since the passing of the resolution supporting our efforts to Protect and preserve The Sacred Sundance, sweat-lodge and related healing ceremonials?, report and update. Presenting of proposed actions, ie trip to Washington, D.C. seeking assistance from Senator Inouyah, Committee on Indian Affairs, rersponse from Hoosier National Forrest Officials. Highlights from the 1st Quarterly Coalition meeting in Ethetee, Wyoming.

Lodging will be provided:

Current Board Members:

Bernard Red Cherries Jr-Northern Cheyenne
Gilbert Whitedirt-Northern Cheyenne
Lenny Foster-Navajo Nation
Leland Littledog-Sicangu Lakota, Rosebud Sioux Nation
Alfred Boneshirt-Sicangu Lakota, Rosebud Sioux Nation
Ned Metcalf-Sicangu Lakota, Rosebud Sioux Nation
Chester Whiteman-Southern Cheyenne
Roland Haag-Southern Cheyenne
Joe Bigmedicine-Southern Cheyenne
George Sutton
Lee Pedro-Southern Arapahoe
Jerry Redman-Northern Arapahoe
Darrell Lonebear-Northern Arapahoe
Nelson White-Northern Arapahoe

Spiritual Advisors: Northern Arapahoe Sacred Four oldmen
Joseph Waterman Jr-Northern Arapahoe
Tommy White-Northern Arapahoe
Harold Smith-Northern Arapahoe
Leonard Moss Sr-Northern Arapahoe

Spiritual Advisor:
Arvol Lookinghorse-Keeper "White Buffalo Calf Pipe" of the Lakota, Dakota, and Nakota Nation.

All other Tribes are welcome to attend and become members, however we must respect the fact that the goals and directions of the coalition are undisputable and firm in regards to our efforts of Protecting and Preserving Traditional Ceremonial Prayers ways of our Native Peoples for our Future Generations. We know and respect the fact that "All" Peoples have the Creator given rights to pray regardless of Color, we choose NOW as Native American Spiritual & Traditional Leaders to excert our Sovereign rights to Protect these ways that are our "Life-ways", and that were handed down in Traditional customary process by our Grandfathers and Grandmothers.



Protection of Ceremonies O-mini-c’i-ya-pi
I, Chief Arvol Looking Horse, 19th Generation Keeper of the Sacred White Buffalo Calf Pipe, would like to thank all the People that attended this historic ‘Protection of Ceremonies’ meeting.

• Bernard Red Cherries – Northern Cheyenne Nation – Northern Cheyenne Arrow Priest and Elk Society Headsman
• Tweety Little Bird– Northern Cheyenne Nation – Northern Cheyenne Elk Horn Scraper Society
• Lee Pedro – Southern Arapahoe Nation – Southern Arapahoe Rabbit Man (Holy Man)
• Dave Chief – Ogallala Nation – Lakota Spiritual Leader
• Dave Swallow – Ogallala Nation – Medicine Bundle Keeper
• Kevin Horse Looking – Ogallala Nation – Medicine Bundle Keeper
• Floyd Hand – Ogallala Nation – Medicine Bundle Keeper
• Silo Black Crow – Ogallala Nation – Medicine Bundle Keeper
• Sam Moves Camp – Ogallala Nation – Medicine Bundle Keeper
• Chris Leith – Prairie Island Dakota Community – Medicine Bundle Keeper
• Gaylen Drapeau Sr. – I-hank-to-wa (Yankton Sioux) Nation – Medicine Bundle Keeper
• Gaylen Drapeau Jr. – I-hank-to-wa (Yankton Sioux) Nation – Medicine Bundle Keeper
• Ambrose Little Ghost – Spirit Lake Dakota Nation – Dakota Spiritual Leader
• Calvin Medicine Bear First – Assinoboine Nakota Nation – Nation Spiritual Leader
• Leonard Crow Dog – Si-c’an-g’u Rosebud Sioux Nation – Medicine Bundle Keeper
• Roy Stone Sr. – Si-c’an-g’u Rosebud Sioux Nation - Medicine Bundle Keeper
• Ned Medcalf – Si-c’an-g’u Rosebud Sioux Nation – Interpretor/advisor
• Leon Red Dog – Hoh’-wo-ju Cheyenne River Sioux Nation - Medicine Bundle Keeper
• Steve Vance – Hoh’-wo-ju Cheyenne River Sioux Nation – Medicine Bundle Keeper
• Francis Yellow – Hoh’-wo-ju Cheyenne River Sioux Nation – Medicine Bundle Keeper
• Jacob Sanderson – Cree Nation Canada – Medicine Bundle Keeper
• Kevin Ta-c’an – Sioux Valley Manitoba Dakota Nation – Dakota Spiritual Leader

On March 8th and 9th, Spiritual Leaders and Bundle Keepers of the Lakota, Dakota, Nakota Nation, Cheyenne Nation and Arapahoe Nation were called together to discuss the protection from the abuse and exploitation of our ceremonies. The meeting was held at the Cultural Center in Eagle Butte, South Dakota, hosted by the Cheyenne River Sioux Tribe. I would also like to acknowledge the financial donation from the Prairie Island Dakota Community.

Discussions in the meeting included the molestation taking place in ceremony, indecent mockery, mixing of new age beliefs, charging for ceremonies and death, which was never heard of before in our ancient ceremonial history. There was also discussion of the use of other “medicines” (drugs) in and around our ceremonies. When the White Buffalo Calf Woman brought the Sacred Bundle, she instructed that only those with a pure mind and heart should touch the C’anupa. The ceremonies in question, in reference to all the Plains Tribes, were the I-ni-pi (Purification Ceremony), Wi-wanyang-wa-c’i-pi (Sundance Ceremony) and Han-ble-c’i-ya (vision quest) Sacred Rites.

We put out notice in the newspapers, native radio stations and also contacted people through the phone. I offered prayers for the safe journey of the People to this very important historic meeting. Those that could not attend, I acknowledge their prayers for a good outcome for our concerns.

After long discussion and testimonies of the concerns and issues, it was decided that it would be up to me, as the Keeper of the Sacred White Buffalo Calf Pipe to make a decision. It was good to feel the beginning of a Unity amongst our People. This has been my concern for many decades, especially now, when we are facing an oncoming war. We need to stand strong with our ceremonies!

I will state what the decision is and also explain the reasons. I will state the protocols to our Seven Sacred Rites, which were passed down to me when I became the next Keeper at the age of 12 years old. These protocols are traditional knowledge passed down through our oral history and need to be brought back to strengthen our ‘Ho-c’o-ka’ (our sacred alters) once again.

I will also address the areas that I cannot be involved in. My responsibility is the Seven Sacred Rites.

It was decided, from March 9th, 2003 and forward, there will be no non-Natives allowed in our sacred Ho-c’o-ka (our sacred alters) where it involves our Seven Sacred Rites. The only protection with this decision in Government law; is that only enrolled members can carry an eagle feather. In all the Seven Sacred Rites, there has always been the understanding of earning and a requirement of an eagle feather while participating in these Rites. The eagle feather stands for Indigenous knowledge and guidance in our spiritual ways.

• The Wi-wanyang-wa-c’i-pi (Sundance Ceremony): The only participants allowed in the center will be Native People. The non-Native people need to understand and respect our decision. If there have been any unfinished commitments to the Sundance and non-Natives have concern for this decision; they must understand that we have been guided through prayer to reach this resolution. Our purpose for the Sundance is for the survival of the future generations to come, first and foremost. If the non-Natives truly understand this purpose, they will also understand this decision and know that by their departure from this Ho-c’o-ka (our sacred alter) is their sincere contribution to the survival of our future generations.

• Please understand the Wi-wanyang-wa-c’i-pi Ceremony is not only taking place in the center (Ho-c’o-ka) with the dancers. The ceremonial participation also depends on all the supporters on the outside of the arbor who should be in prayer. From the gate, to the cook shack, to the fire-keepers, to the supporters around the arbor, to even the moon camp, all people are still a part of this sacred ceremony.

• There should be a preparation of ‘Han-ble-c’i-ya’ (vision quest) before you become a participant of the Sundance.

• We shall go back into this ceremony with the proper protocols before and during the ceremony itself. Only those that have had the dream or direction through a ceremony, in concern of someone’s health, should be dancing. Dancers should be secluded from outside participants, as to not be contaminated by other people’s energy or thoughts. There should be absolutely no food or water during this four-day ceremony. If there are health problems, you should choose a person to finish your commitment. This ceremony is supposed to be for those that believe they can fulfill all required four days of the ceremony.

• Han-ble-c’i-ya (Vision Quest): The vision quest should be only for Native People that have had the dream or vision. This Rite is also for the young men and women that reach the age of 12 years of age.

• I-ni-pi (Purification Ceremony): Those that run this sacred rite should be able to communicate with Tun-ca-s’i-la (our Sacred Grandfathers) in their Native Plains tongue. They should also have earned this rite by completing Han-ble-c’i-ya and the four days and four years of the Wi-wanyang wa-c’i-pi.

• The other four sacred rites of the Hun-ka ka-g’a (Making of a Relative), the Ta-pa kah’-g’o-ya (Throwing of the Sacred Ball), Wi-yan is’-na ti (Womanhood Ceremony) and the Na-g’i glu-ha (Keeping of the Spirit Ceremony), should be only handled by legitimate Lakota, Dakota, Nakota Oyate (People).

• It was also decided only legitimate Lakota, Dakota, Nakota Oyate Medicine Bundle Keepers should handle any other ceremonies that are connected to our Ho-co-ka, such as the Lo-wa-pi and U-wi-pi ceremonies.

• There should be no price tag allowed to participate in any of our Sacred Ceremonies. The only protocol needed for a ceremony is to o-pa-g’i, meaning to offer your C’anupa or offer tobacco that has been prayed with, in which the Medicine Person accepts or not accept if he is not able to assist. Medicine People do need to survive, and if people wish to give a monetary or any other gifts after they receive their help from ceremony, giving it from their hearts, I see no problem with that. We have to have faith that the Grandfathers will provide for our needs to survive in this modern society; whether the gift is money, blankets, food or anything that represents how much they appreciate the help. Some people can afford big gifts, some people cannot. It all balances out.

• My position is only for the Seven Sacred Rites. I cannot dictate to our Medicine People who they allow to attend and support these Rites, in reference to non-Native People. I cannot dictate who they choose to doctor in their ceremonies. I cannot dictate where they travel to doctor.

• I have my own personal feelings on who should be Keepers of our Sacred C’anupa (Pipe). The C’anupa is very sacred and the Keeper should first be given a dream and be of Native decent. This issue should be further discussed in our future meetings. The reason for my feelings is that I am aware the C’anupa has gone out to the International community and has been for sale. I know that most non-Native People do not understand the important protocols or have had the Traditional background to carry this sacred item properly. I am aware of women in their moon and men with blood on their hands (to take ones life intentionally) have been allowed to touch and carry the C’anupa. These serious situations were never to be allowed. I offer thanks to the non-Native People that have returned the C’anupa to our People, after I privately shared my concerns with them. I acknowledge their true sincerity in assisting our Nation to protect the survival of our Traditional way of life on behalf of our future generations. They have helped us bring back honor and respect to our sacred Ho-co-ka and C’anupa.

• There was also discussion of only the Plains Tribal members to participate in the Ho-co-ka of the Wi-wanyang wa-c’i-pi and the Han-ble c’i-ya Ceremonies. In the early 70’s, Chief Fools Crow and my father Stanley Looking Horse decided to allow other Native Nations to participate in these Rites. Their reasons were based on the fact that most Nations have lost their ways through assimilation or lack of Teachers to teach their Indigenous ways. They honored and understood the unity of the First Nations People when different Tribes came to the aid of the Wounded Knee Occupation. I cannot undo their decision out of respect for our Chief and Elder. It has also been in our history that our Ancestors have respectfully shared our ceremonies with other Indigenous Nations.

• The original teachings were that the Pipe Carrier should make their own C’anupa. There was an understanding of the sincere spiritual energy and the traditional values passed down through our bloodlines. All the values of compassion, love, honor, respect and truth are molded into the spiritual life they are creating. I hope that one day the future generations will again pick up this important protocol.

I would like to invite all our Lakota, Dakota, Nakota Nations to the next ceremony when I bring out the Sacred White Buffalo Calf Bundle. The dates in the fall will be announced. During this time we will place the 12 honorable compassionate men to assist in taking care of the concerns of the Sacred C’anupa. We will also discuss the protocols of the need to have a good mind and good heart to be a member of the Societies that will carry out these decisions in a respectful manner.

There will be another Protection of Ceremonies meeting to further discuss and address these serious issues in the future. This meeting will be sponsored by the Cheyenne Nation.

Once again, I thank all those that have offered prayers for these very serious issues to be discussed and handled in a good way.

In the Sacred Hoop of Life, where there is no ending and no beginning!

Mitakuye Oyasin,

Arvol Looking Horse,
19th Generation Keeper of the Sacred White Buffalo Calf Pipe


by Freedom Of Information
Sunday Jan 6th, 2008 4:37 PM
Since LeKay's sheep are so concerned about money, I did a little investigating myserlf.

My Freedom of Information report came back and it seems that LeKay's good buddy, Mala Spotted Eagle Pope is just rolling in the dough!

HHHHMMMMMMM!!

What type of agenda might he have to avoid paying taxes on his alleged income????

Mala turns out to be associated with several highly questionable501 3Cs that each are taking in over $50,000.00 per year selling trite, tonto-speak wisdom to foolish and gullible white liberals who have absolutely NO knowledge of any legitimate native spiriatulaity.

Mala is a busy, busy boy.
He travels all over the U.S. and Europe collecting funds and claiming to be a "Western Shoshone and Cherokee" elder, yet he refuses to provide proof of any genetic ties to these nations.

His dirty little palm is greased primarily by
Nanish Shontie
PO BOX 17
BLACHLY , OR 97412

between 2001 and 2004 they took in $188,178.00
Mala Spotted Eagle Pope is the President of the organization
Winter Spotted Eagel Pope is the Director
and
Sandra Sky Pope is the treasurer of the organizaiton


HHHHHHHHMMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!


but wait there's more!

Mala also sits on the boards of

The Shundahai Network

The Mucherla Global School


Radio for Peace in Costa Rica where the IRS can't to his money,

Poo-Ha-Bah (Listed as a Christian organization)
Tecopa California
92389

They use the late Corbin Harney’s image and name to collect funds.
I wonder if his surviving family knows about this.

HHHHMMMMMM!


The Peace and Justice Center in Salem Oregon

The Institute for deep ecology
Berkely CA
2812 CHERRY ST
BERKELEY , CA 94705

Each of these organizations take in between $50,000 and $100,000 per year and many of them have failed to file the required forms for 501 3cs taking in donations.


HHHHHHMMMMMMM!!!!!!

I would strongly suggest that anyone interested in the truth write to the attorney general's office in all these states to ask some hard questions about where all this money is really going.

It appears that members of the Pope family have been taking in millions of dollars a year, yet all they have to show for it is 17 undeveloped acres in Oregon? Where is all this money going????

It would also be helpful to write to the IRS to find out WHY the 501 3C s failed to file their 990s for the past 2 years

HMMMMMMMMM........

I have much more damaging infor which I will post if I see hear about any more of LeKay’s supporters shutting down any more websites.


later









by Just Plain Tired
Friday Feb 22nd, 2008 3:29 PM
For a long time, I resisted commenting on this situation. It's sad - all this infighting, the hurt it's caused, the trouble it has caused, all the anger and pain, the lies and distortions of truth. This is not how we are suppose to live, as native people or for human beings, period. Is it any wonder our world is in the mess that it is?

This article, written by Al Carroll is self-serving to protect the group NAPS and those people who have used it as a very long time, for personal agendas and vendettas against people. Oh, they do expose people who are not who they claim to be and who take advantage of others - con artists and there are con artists in every facet of life. I support the provision of facts and I mean FACTS when it comes to allegations that someone is not who they say they are. But far too often in the past, and in the present, facts have never played into the accusations against some people by NAPS and other groups and individuals who do the same exact thing.

Tricia Jacobs who had a website, she named "Respect" in Cherokee, was anything but respectful to those she made allegations against. She was vicious with her words and the power she felt she had through this website to many people. Even if she was correct on the allegations she made regarding some individuals, I don't know whatever made her think she has the right and the power to destroy the lives of others and to judge them for what they are doing. This is not the native way. She claims to be Cherokee herself - but she dishonored the word Respect by her words and actions on her website. It became so bad, that people began to fight back against her attacks by hiring attorneys and preparing to file law suits against her and that is when she took her website down. Even at that, she left some hateful not so polite parting shots on what she left online.

A group of people starting a website - triciajacobs.com to warn others about her and to outline the actions she has been responsible for on her self-appointed mission of seeing out and destroying anyone who she believes to be a twinkie - a term used to describe non-native people who supposedly are fakes and wanabees. Whether or not they are - is often not so clear. It's personal allegations, name calling, which is easy to do on the internet and which has horrible results for those innocent people who are not guilty of any of her allegations. She lives in Europe so she is safe for the time being from US law. I doubt she is Cherokee. But if she is, and it's possible, I am ashamed and she should be too, for the way in which she has made some horrendous statements on her website about individuals and groups. If someone emailed her and tried to have a discussion with her about her allegations, she tore them apart on her website - printed their email and went through it, sentence by sentence, tearing them apart. If she was sincerely concerned about those stealing culture, why would she ever do something like that? Why not work on changing the mind set of someone who is doing something that is not right through communication, understanding and a meeting of the minds. Isn't the purpose education? Well, her form of education is more like dragging someone up the steps to the noose that awaits them.

She is very involved with NAPS and was part of the group that worked with Arvol Looking Horse on a film in Sweden on culturral theft and misappropriation. Why on earth would Arvol Looking Horse ever want to work with someone like this or the others in this group who spend most of the their time trying to destroy people? Is that the goal of a spiritual person? Or is it another case of Arvol being led by the nose by his wife Paula Horne? In every situation that has come up in the past few years, she does all the talking for him. Native sources would try to get an interview with him about the allegations being made - (to do with Sacred Ceremony and his plan, along with Bernard Red Cherries to get the US Government to enforce their beliefs - to keep whites from participating in their ceremonies.) Can you imagine going to the same government that denied religious freedom to American Indians up until 1978?????

People are people and spiritual leaders or priests or doctors or teachers are no better than anyone else. They have weaknesses, they have egos and the desire for power too. They seem to have forgotten that we are all related, even though most of them say it all the time.

There are corrupt Tribal Officials - throwing people off the rolls now because they want more of the casino profits for themselves. There are Tribal Councils who silence people for coming forth to tell the truth about the wrongdoings of elected tribal officials - like in Mashpee for example, the people who came forward, ending up being shunned and silenced for 7 years.

Diane Schenandoah, Oneida, was forceably removed from her home in upstate NY by tribal police - her house was destroyed and she was taken over state lines and locked up in a hole-in-the-wall jail in PA on trumped up charges. This woman had no representation - no one phone call, no right to appear before a Judge before being extradited or transferred across state lines to be locked up on this trumped up charges - simply because she had the courage to stand up to the powers that be of the Oneida Nation - one Ray Halbritter and his chronies, who are becoming very rich via their casino and other money-making ventures. They might have killed her in the old days for opening her mouth, but they couldn't get away with that today - so they hauled her off to a jail - a young, single Mother with 3 children who has suffered since then, through homelessness, thrown off her nation, denied all her benefits and rights of her birthright as an Oneida citizen because they were determined to shut her up.

Most people didn't read that in the papers, did they? Even vicious, horrible killers are given more representation and more rights than she was. At least the NY police had the good sense to stay out of it. But they must have paid some small-town Sherriff some big bucks to help them out with their plan - no one could reach him that weekend - he was off - doesn't work on the weekends. Whoever he is, he certainly does not deserve to be a cop, let a lone a Chief. I feel sorry for the people of his town.

But let's get back to this group. First they holler that their freedom of speech is being denied. Freedom of speech does not mean you can go around destroying the reputations and lives of people because you don't like them. They are using their claims of being native to abuse many laws and simply human consideration and respect for others. They cry discrimination when they are experts at it themselves.

Their claim is that they are being denied freedom of speech by the frauds they are trying to expose. This is the same response they always use when they get shut down. Yahoo finally shut them down, most of the other free websites have as well - at one time, they got away with a lot of slander and destruction of peoples' lives because these free websites have no conscience or integrity anyhow. But after a few lawsuits and getting hit in the pocket, they started to clean up their act too and shut down these sites. At one time, there were so many of them, it was not funny.

It was not about education of the public - although they would give out some good pointers on how to spot a fake - just enough legitimacy to permit them to get away with their personal agendas and power trips. Maybe it's an inner rage they all seem to have in common - to strike out to hurt others because they have been so hurt in their own lives. I'm no psychiatrist, but it's not too difficult to figure out these people have serious personality disorders.

What is being accomplished by their actions? You can't stop frauds until you have enough facts legally to do so. You can't stop anyone from putting up a website and claiming to be native or anything else. In Germany, the Lakota are so revered, that they have hobbyist groups who get together for a weekend or a few weeks and play at being Indian - but the thing is they REALLY BELIEVE they are Lakota. You have the frauds that go around performing ceremonies and charging fees to the public to participate - how can anyone stop every single one of them?

And if they are all as native as they claim, they know, that what goes around, comes around, that life is a continuous circle and that these people who are doing these things are putting their lives and the lives of their loved ones in danger by conducting these ceremonies and by descrating the Sacred. The natural law will be the judge and the one that will give out true justice for their actions. It is not up to us, to become judge, jury and executioners.

If they are truly sincere, they would put away the anger, the nasty jokes they make and comments and concentrate on education and providing facts to non-natives. That's all they can do and then it's up to individuals to learn the respect and reasons why they should not be playing Indian. We can't force anyone to stop doing something they are determined to do. Maybe the government could pass laws that anyone caught pretending to be a Medicine person or Pipe carrier or Sweat Lodge keeper can be charged with a crime like they would for anyone impersonating a Priest or Minister. But do we really want the federal governmetn involved in our spiritual beliefs, ceremonies and traditions? The same government that denied us this right and threatened us with jail if caught praying in our traditional ways?

Arvol Looking Horse's recent trip to Sweden was not necessary - nor was it necessary to employ or use a white film maker to make a movie about cultural theft. Why couldn't they have used a native film maker in the United States? Why someone from Europe? We have many talented film makers who are American Indian and I think they should have been given first priority in making any such film.

When I think of all the money that was spent to pay for Arvol Looking Horse's air fare, his wife, Paula's air fare and who knows who else? their living expenses while there, travel costs, and they had several speaking engagements which I'm certain they received funds of some sort for doing. Call them donations, fine - but all that money would have gone to much better service, into providing heat and improvements in the lifestyle of the Lakota people.

People are without heat and freezing in the sub-standard homes they live in. One recent year, a father and his young child were found frozen to death in their home, because they had no heat. They were found laying together covered with blankets. This is not an one-time thing. The elders freeze every year, so don't the children and babies, their Mothers and Fathers, for most Lakota and many other tribal nations, winter is a fight for survival to make it to spring.

There are many non-profit groups who help all the time in providing oil and propane, and wood, warm clothing, and so much more. Of course they can only do so much. It's impossible for these wonderful people to take care of everything and everyone - but they try very hard to provide as many necessities of life as possible. They try hard to see that the children have a warm coat and gloves, a toy for the holidays - a book - some children have never had their own book. The Cheyenne River Sioux's schools had no libraries for the children - but once again, kind-hearted, good people - many non-native worked hard to find a way for the children to receive books and books of their culture and for each child to have their own book - that they could take home, read when they wanted and cherish.

All that money wasted on making a documentary - so they claim by a non-native, film maker from Europe, who is now as thick as thieves with the twinkie hunters. Through her involvement, she has rubbed shoulders with some of the "biggies" of the Indian world - Arvol Looking Horse - wow - what a story to tell their grandchildren someday!!!! In the meantime, how many native children will die because they are forced to live in third-world conditions....and the beat goes on.

This is not what we are taught, or as native people know we should not be doing - especially now in this day and age - when the earth is in such a terrible condition, our Mother who gives life to all, is dying; there is war, starvation, suffering everywhere all over the world. Why add to all of this negative energy and hatred by personal attacks? We should be joining hands in prayer and asking the Creator of all life to please heal us, our earth and spare us so that we will have a much better future for all the world's people, the children and elders. Will it matter in 100 years, that there was a group of people who started a group called NAPS? What will their accomplishments be? What positive changes will they have made for the world and all God's children?

Our Elders teach us reverance and respect for all life. Just as we respect the life of a tree or an insect, we are suppose to respect the lives of all people. How can we ever solve any differences when the choice of methods is to attack, shame, shun, and hurt others? To make up untruths, which they know they have done no matter how much some of them deny that.

Indians are not perfect people - no more than any other people. We all make mistakes and some of us have forgotten the real reason for life and have gone so far from that teaching, the road back will be a very difficult one, but it can be done.

Let's just start with TRUTH.

From what I know of the White Buffalo Calf Woman and I am no expert, nor am I Lakota, but when she appeared to the hunters with her message - she immediately turne done into dust because of his disrespect. Yet, not only Lakota men, but too many native men have lost respect for the Women - the lifeblood of any nation, and female, like our Earth Mother. They have excluded women from participation in many ceremonies and activities of tribal nations and they know better. They know the part women played and should again be part of and respected, not beaten, nor raped nor pushed aside so the males can run things. That in working together, there is balance - male and female and this is how it is meant to be.

White Buffalo Calf Woman said the pipe belonged to all the people. Why is it such a secret as to where it is and who has it? Why would the pipe keeper of this very Sacred pipe (all pipes are sacred), ever admit in public, in print that he had buried it to protect it. Protect it from whom?
Shouldn't there be more concern about keeping the nation's people aware of what is happening rather than spending all this time traveling around the world, making films with non-natives, getting paid big money for this travel when many believe Arvol Looking Horse should be there for his people. He is the Keeper of the Pipe that belongs to all of the People. It's not "his" Pipe - he is the keeper, bottom line. He can speak English - enough to be understood. He should speak to the people for himself and have a translator if there are words that are difficult for him to express in English or any other language for that matter. The translator should be just that - and nothing more and not a relative.

That way, the person who is translating his words, has no personal motivation or anything to gain by that position, which is a position of power. People listen to what he has to say. Personally, I think an explanation of why he failed to support native film makers in the making of this documentary was his choice? Why was it necessary for him to go overseas?

Carroll and his group - have also written several books that are selling like hotcakes over in Europe. We all know by now that the Europeans are very interested in American Indians and will want to buy these books. Where are the proceeds going? Are they going to help the people?

While some jet set across the world, others freeze to death, or go to bed hungry every night. The strength of the famiy unit is gone and needs to be rebuilt and the amount of domestic violence climbs. The suicide rate of teenagers on the reservation is astronomical. These are just some of the serious problems facing not only Pine Ridge, the most well known Lakota Reservation, but too many reservations.

The leadership (elected) is far too often, corrupted. The Elders are not respected or listened to as to how the people can begin a positive change in their lives. The children feel no hope for the present, let alone the future.

And yet, here we have this internet group screaming about how they are being denied their free speech rights because their website was removed for terms of service violations. That's why it was taken down. And because of their constant threats of lawsuits and boycotts and bringing AIM into it, (the mere mention of AIM) frightens a lot of people to this day, these webhosts cave in to their demands to avoid the negative publicity treating Indians like everyone else will bring.

Don't get me wrong. There are many people who are part of AIM that do a lot of good and have worked all their lives to bring about positive change for American Indians in the United States. Let us never forget a small, but very strong Micmac woman, Anna Mae Aquash Pictou who was murdered execution style. The FBI does not kill execution style and I am not standing up for the FBI by any means. But why would they? Wouldn't common sense dictate that they would prefer Anna Mae alive so they could question her, pressure her into revealing information they wanted? Why would any cop kill a possible informant?

I think Anna Mae was strong enough to stand up for her beliefs - that is why she became involved in all that she did. She wanted life to become better for native people and her children. So, I believe, like most women, Anna Mae asked questions, of those around her because of the things she did witness and those questions were uncomfortable and why should all these big strong warriors listen to some small, tiny woman from Canada anyway. It was time to put Anna Mae in her place. Their paranoia caused her untimely death.

She is a martyr for all native women and a martyr for all American Indians. Some day we will know the truth, because the truth always comes out sooner or later. Perhaps not as soon as we might want, but justice will come for Anna Mae.

So, Angry NDN - stop being so angry about things that are so unimportant in comparison to the big picture. Your anger and self-righteousness is not going to stop the pain of a hungry child's belly, or bring warmth to the cold, freezing body of a frail elder. It's not going to stop teen suicide or end the epidemic of drug and alcohol abuse, poverty, lack of education, sub-standard housing, and all the things that really need attention. Your opinions of others is not that important. Your actions are more self-serving than in service and giving to your own people and into making our world a better place for the human race.

Tired of It.
by EducableCaucasion
Sunday Mar 23rd, 2008 5:01 AM
Thanks for putting up this information! I'm not Indian, but I'm very concerned about everyone around me who seems to think that they need to BE Indian in order to support the things that Indians support. I think the behavior of the people who don't like this news story is very telling. I have never seen a group of individuals so desperate to throw red-herrings into a discussion. They use all the tactics that people I don't trust use - bomb their opponent with accusations and ad hominems and talking about some Lefty sounding social issue in order to distract attention away from the real issues. When I see how desperately people want to silence the Indians who are trying to expose the many, many frauds that we all know are out there, it makes me more determined to learn more about them and to speak out about it when I see my fellow progressives playing Indian. I don't know a lot about this subject, but when I see the appauling behavior of the sock puppets who have attacked this newsarticle, it makes me want to start educating myself. Got any suggestions where I can start?

A disgusted white liberal who wants to be educated
by Just Another NDN
Sunday Apr 27th, 2008 10:49 AM
Looks like all the attacks on NAFPS and Al Carroll are just a bunch of racist crackpots whining over losing. Al Carroll just got honored by the State Department no less!

And he's putting out his first book! Cool!

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1710.0
Fulbright Scholar and Published Historian
« on: Yesterday at 08:15:14 pm »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Most people here know me, some of you pretty well. So it always seemed an intro wasn't needed. But now there's news I need to share with everyone.

I'm Al Carroll, PhD, Mescalero Apache (unenrolled if that matters to you), Mexican, and Irish, a history professor at St. Phillip's College in San Antonio TX. I've also taught at San Antonio College and Arizona State University. I've met Annika, Barnaby, and Ingeborg in person on the tour in Europe, as well as worked with Annika and Folke on two documentaries. I've spoken on the phone with some of you as well, Debbie, Pat, and others, and known many of you online since the beginning of NAFPS, some eight years ago or so. I'm proud to work with many of you and all the good work we've done over the years.

I'm one of the co founders, and because of that (plus a few other reasons) I often get the most flack for what NAFPS does. The other reasons are that I don't hide who I am, and am prepared to take any hits for the work we do. I don't believe I can hide or even should try, and I know that doing so would just lead to lots of bizarre rumors. In any case, a few nuts talking trash is a small price to pay for defending tradition.

Still, I'm only one of half a dozen moderators in here, and only one of now over 600 people, and one of at least 50 or 60 of the most active members. So if you hear anyone call this "my" group or forum, understand that that's a lot of nonsense.

Another reason for many of the bizarre rumors which get spread about myself and often about NAFPS by extension is because of another website I run, http://www.davidyeagley.org. Yeagley, his followers, and partners in crime devote a great deal of effort against NAFPS because of my side project exposing him as the white supremacist imposter he is and his membership and ties to half a dozen of the worst racist organizations in the country.

One friend and supporter of Yeagley's is John Lekay, a racist English Nuage promoter who is in a number of threads in here. Yeagley and Lekay and co have vested interests in doing all they can to defame and sometime libel NAFPS and myself, Lekay as the promoter of a fraud named Suzanne Dupree that he wants to set up as the "true" owner of the Lakota sacred pipe, and Yeagley as a paid shill for the Far Right doing all he can to tear down and disrupt any and all Native causes in the name of his white supremacy beliefs.

I'm glad to say that all that Yealgey, Lekay, and others have tried to do to harm NAFPS and myself over the years has been a complete and utter FAILURE. In most ways it's completely backfired. NAFPS is stronger than ever and more respected than ever, constantly used as a resource by hundreds of sites and working with numerous other activists and institutions.

Personally, they haven't been able to touch me either. I continue to work and write works published in academia. And I'm proud to tell of you in here two very important new announcements.

The first is news some of you have known was coming for some time. My first book is being published. Originally my dissertation, it's been rewritten and taken out of the dissertation mold, done with both a Native and a general audience in mind. Above all I aimed for my book to support oral traditions, and be a work that Native veterans and their families would want to read and reread again, to understand the traditions in the broadest possible context, and refer to when a non-Native asks them why so many NDNs are vets. It's also still more than rigorously researched enough to be put out on an academic press. That's something the likes of David Yeagley and other professional liars and deceivers could never hope for.

---------------
http://www.nebraskapress.unl.edu/product/Medicine-Bags-and-Dog-Tags,673393.aspx
Medicine Bags and Dog Tags
American Indian Veterans from Colonial Times to the Second Iraq War
Al Carroll
Hardcover
2008. 296 pp.
978-0-8032-1085-1
$45.00 s
Read an Excerpt (pdf)

As far back as colonial times, Native individuals and communities have fought alongside European and American soldiers against common enemies. Medicine Bags and Dog Tags is the story of these Native men and women whose military service has defended ancient homelands, perpetuated longstanding warrior traditions, and promoted tribal survival and sovereignty.

Drawing on a rich array of archival records and oral traditions, Al Carroll offers the most complete account of Native veterans to date and is the first to take an international approach, drawing comparisons with Native veteran traditions in Canada and Mexico. He debunks the “natural warrior” stereotype as well as the popular assumption that Natives join the military as a refuge against extreme poverty and as a form of assimilation. The reasons for enlistment, he argues, though varied and complex, are invariably connected to the relative strengths of tribal warrior traditions within communities. Carroll provides a fascinating look at how the culture and training of the American military influenced the makeup and tactics of the American Indian Movement in the 1960s and 1970s and how, in turn, Natives have influenced U.S. military tactics, symbolism, and basic training.

Al Carroll is Mescalero Apache (unenrolled), Mexican, and Irish. He is an adjunct professor of history at St. Phillip’s College in San Antonio, Texas, and his articles have appeared in several contributed volumes.

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It's coming out in June, and is already widely available online at dozens of sites for ordering advance copies.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22medicine+bags+and+dog+tags&btnG=Google+Search

So if any of you read it, let me know what you think of it. I'll likely be doing public appearances to promote it also.


The other piece of news is also something I'm pretty excited about. As of this week, it's official. I'm now a Fulbright Scholar. For anyone whose not familar with the Fulbright Program.

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http://www.cies.org/about_fulb.htm
The Fulbright Program, the U.S. government's flagship program in international educational exchange....

Fulbright grants are made to U.S. citizens and nationals of other countries for a variety of educational activities, primarily university lecturing, advanced research, graduate study and teaching...chosen for their academic merit and leadership potential...to exchange ideas and to contribute to finding solutions to shared issues....

Both U.S. and Visiting Fulbright Scholars lecture or conduct research in a wide variety of academic and professional fields ranging from journalism and urban planning to music, philosophy, business administration and zoology.

The Fulbright Program is sponsored by the United States Department of State, Bureau of Educational and Cultural Affairs....

The U.S. Fulbright Scholar Program sends 800 scholars and professionals each year to over 140 countries, where they lecture or conduct research in a wide variety of academic and professional fields.
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To say this is prestigious is a huge understatement. This is one of the most highly acclaimed and respected awards anywhere in academia, and very hard to get. In fact I was one of only two awards for this year for the social sciences for this nation. Typically there are hundreds of people competing for any one award.

I'll be living in the city of Makassar (population 1.2 million) on the island of Sulawesi in Indonesia from September of 2008 to June of 2009.
http://www.forumms.com/makassar_today.htm

I'll be teaching at the University of Hasinuddan, which is described as the best university in the eastern half of Indonesia (population 235 million.)
http://www.unhas.ac.id/english/index.php

I couldn't find out their exact enrollment numbers, but the site mentions dorms for 1500 students and an auditorium holding 3000. The number of alumni for all of their colleges is pretty impressive too. The campus looks pretty modern and they have a very prestigious history of research.
http://www.unhas.ac.id/english/index.php?menu=students

I will be teaching Indonesians about the history of tribal peoples and other minorities in the US so they can compare it to their own country's history. And while I'm there I'll be doing research for my next book, looking at tribal soldiers in Asia. This means I'll be looking at how and why members of Indonesian tribal peoples like the Dayaks, Papuans, and Torangans join the military and what their experiences are like.


I want everyone to know that, although I'll be extremely busy both teaching and researching, I will still do my best to be a part of NAFPS. I believe very strongly in the work we do here and it always does my heart good to see all the people we help.

But if it takes a bit longer for me to get back to someone, or if someone wants to call me on the phone or ask me to call them on the phone, keep in mind that's much harder, both for the expense and the time difference (which I think is eighteen hours.)
Keep in mind that there are five other very good moderators here, lots of dedicated NDN actvists, our handful of good friends in Europe, and hundreds of just plain good hearted people and people eager to know more or do more on this issue.

In any case, I won't be leaving until mid August at the earliest and will still be a part of NAFPS. Always. The only thing the crackpots like Yeagley and Lekay and Holzwarth do is make me more determined to carry on.
by Ajudicated Indian
Thursday Jul 17th, 2008 5:22 PM
You are SO right! Finally! A voice of REASON! While the intent of NAFPS reads noble, the actions of Al Carroll and his Euro-thugs who moderate have crossed all lines of decency. There are NO Traditional Native Elders who support him. Why would they? His site's moderator's insult Natives by saying, and I quote, "They aren't Elders, they're just old women." That comment alone would be reason enough to destroy his internet 'restroom wall' laughingly called a forum.
Again, there is good stuff there - but you have to wade through hip high excrement to even accidentally stumble across it. And please, don't flaunt college degrees and state awards in our noses - who do you think you're talking too? IF only tradtional Natives used computers - Al Carroll and his site would be reduced to a few scratches on the coup tally of history against arrogant racists who presume to speak for Natives, as though they are actually Natives themselves. Book learning don't make it so, Al. Speaking of books, I see some real Native voices are being heard in reviews of yours. So it's ok for YOU to use the words 'Medicine Bags' to sell your book, but nobody else better use such sacraments that way? Hip O'Crit Irishman! Your veneer of illusory transparency (Hi, my name is Al and I'm not enrolled) is cracking. And nobody will help you put all the pieces back together again, Humpty.
by Mescalero Apache Woman
Wednesday Jul 30th, 2008 9:17 AM
It is my understanding that Al Carroll is latino mix. When he first came online, he admitted to not knowing much about the drop of apache blood he had and yet he is now speaking for all apaches? I am amazed, did he learn all of this online or in those expensive colleges he has went to? He once said he was from San Antonio TX and now he downplays this. Are you ashamed of your Latino heritage? Now that you are playing BIG MAN ON CAMPUS, are you wanting to enhance the Indian and forget the Mexican? Why can't everyone be who they really are and have pride in their heritage and not hide pieces of it? This thread is really much about nothing.
by spring duckett
(free_mother_earth [at] yahoo.com) Wednesday Jul 30th, 2008 12:14 PM
three years ago my family lived at nanish shontie. there is a big long personal drama involved in all of this, but the reason i am here is because my daughter, who is now almost 10, claims that mala molested her. she never said anything while we were there, in fact it didnt come out until a year later when she was living with her father (my exhusband) and she told a counselor. due to strained and legal problems with my ex i have not been able to get ahold of the medical records and go to oregon to press charges, but i believe my daughter and i am caught between severe anger and great sadness. i am joining and posting here because apparently in the past year people have posted about mala being a fraud and quite frankly, i am at a loss as to how to handle this. i will not let it go, there will be retribution of some kind; i am hoping to find some way in the indigenous community that can offer suggestions other than the us goverments idea of justice. if anyone would be willing to talk with me about this, please contact me. time is not an issue, as long as i have breath in my body i will work on finding a way to deal with this so that he takes responsibility for sexually abusing my 6 year old ON HER BIRTHDAY.
by spring duckett
Thursday Aug 28th, 2008 10:51 AM
Mala Spotted Eagle Pope is indeed Shoshone, the son of Rolling Thunder. He is not lying about his heritage. however, i don't know that i would call him an elder, as he is middle aged. Poohabah was a healing center in tecopa hot springs, california, that he was affiliated with but was not his. It was a place started and run by Shoshone elder Corbin Harney, who has at this time crossed over. Corbin was one of the most amazing people i have ever known, and i am ever thankful for my brief time learning with him. i don't know what has happened with the place since then. I am not a member of any tribe, i am simply a young American woman who shares the belief that we all would be nowhere fast without our Mother Earth. I am no saint, and i am not here on this planet to fight with anyone. I am looking for a way to heal, and for my young innocent daughter to heal from the great wrong done to her by a man whom my husband and i had great respect and admiration for, that we trusted. i do not agree with or believe in the american government's ideas of justice, nor do i believe in violence, and i will continue to search for the right way to deal with this. if anyone who reads these threads has any suggestions at all i would be so thankful for their input. What is the way of the tribes to deal with something like this? I continue to pray to the Great Creator for answers, and peace in all this.
Spring, first of all I want to say I am so sorry for what Mala did to your daughter. I don't doubt your story at all. I am reaching out to you, as another Mother with knowledge of what Mala Spotted Eagle Pope has done to your daughter and many other young girls over at least the past 30 years. I lived at Meta Tantay along with my then Husband and two children. A son and a daughter. I know of at least 4 girls he molested there, all under the age of 5. My daughter was 3. I won't name names at the moment. But I know all these beautiful young women, and their Mothers. The thought of what these girls have had to carry and live with at this mans hands is more then I can bear being silent about.These girls have had to live with the emotional scarring, years of torment while he is free to play Spiritual leader and continue destroying the hearts souls and emotions of our daughters. Then parading around the country like someone we are all supposed to honor and learn from. It is time for his reign of terror on little girls as well as grown women to come to an end.

There are allot of people who know about his behavior from Meta Tantay. He has many enemies. We all knew and respected his father Rolling Thunder. I have to say I don't understand how he has gotten away with this for so long. Why none of us adults, intelligent men an women allow this man to continue. Honestly, I don't understand why Rolling Thunder let it go on.

I am very sad to say that his wife Sky has to know about this. If she is really a "Clan Mother" why is she letting her husband get away with this? She is in a position in these communities to leave little girls at his mercy, while she has their Moms and Dads off working here and there. Is this what a Clan Mother does? Isn't it her job to protect children? She is a teacher, right? In these communities where Sky and mala are set up as trusted leaders, where we bring our sweet babies to try and find a way to live a better life. They desecrate our families like this? Please it's time to quit keeping dirty secrets, wake up and call it what is really is! There is strength in numbers.

We don't have to be perfect people to demand justice. None of us are perfect people, including Rolling Thunder. The hard part for me was admitting we were foolish to trust them, and having my precious daughter pay with her mind, emotions, heart and soul for my dreams of a better world. My heart just dies every time I think of it.

Personally, I think prison sounds fabulous. There grown men are willing and able to do to him what he has done to our daughters. Then let him spend the next 20 years in therapy trying to get back his will to live, healing. I am putting this on the WWW because I want to go to court over the matter! I will ask every girl he has molested to come forward, and we will do it together. How many young girls will we be saving? How many don't we know about?

My beautiful daughter has suffered so deeply, I can only imagine how many others there are.
With deep sorrow,
Teresa

by Hermy Jes
(hermyjes [at] telfort.nl) Sunday Sep 21st, 2008 11:38 AM
I'm very sorry to read all the stories about sexual abuse by Mala Spotted Eagle Pope. I've known mala for 10 yeas and spend many summers (6-10weeks) with him and his wife Sky. The big dream was to build a community for all people for a better earth.
During my time there I did notice his strange way of reacting to women in general. His first comment when I got at Nanish Shontie was: 'did you know that Shoshone men can have more then one women?' Of course I was surprised and asked him with what intention he would tell me this. He did not answer.
Also we worked a lot in the 'community' and for the 'community'. to discover no improvement whatsoever. Nothing in 10 yrs. I did however get to hear a lot of stories about sexual abuse. Some of them heartbreaking. Using 'healing' as an excuse (elkmedicine). None of the women dared to go to the police, they were threatened in diffirent ways. One was to think of what his father Rolling Thunder was able to do. mala was able to do those things too! And even when the women in question were living in another country, he would know how to hurt them if they told.
When I heard the stories I told as many people as I could and being the contactperson in Holland for Nanish Shontie, this brought me the threat from mala too. He told me that if I would come to the States again, he would tell Native people that worked for him, how to find me and deal with me the 'native'way!
I had very good contact with Corbin Harney and he would turn in his grave if he knew even half!
The only thing I can think of is to get all the women (young and older) to get together and report together. I really think that prison is the only place this man is in place!!
I know what it is to be molested and I feel deeply for you daughter. She is lucky to have such a brave mother!
by Just Don't Buy It
Thursday Oct 2nd, 2008 3:34 AM
Thank you for having the courage to come forward and post what you know!

It's very difficult to stop these new age frauds because they are very clever and devious and they know how to manipulate white people psychologically.

I would never judge a woman who has been sexually violated and I would never demand that she come forward.
However, there are white people who have given money to Mala who could come forward and help to document how much money has been taken in for the phoney non profit Nanish Shonte. They could demand that the IRS investigate Mala and return all the money to the Shoshone people.

Almost all of the victims of Mala's scams are white and they are too embarrassed about being fooled by this charlatan to admit it openly.
Religious scam artists, like Mala, count on this.

White people need to get over their need to always be right and to admit they've been fooled. Until they develop the humility to do this, native peopel will continute to suffer and our religious will continue to be polluted by the lies that frauds like him spread.

Nanish Shontie is an illegitimate non profit. Mala explointed Corbin to make money. Native people have tried to expose him for years, but the laws require that someone who has been victimized by the scam come forward and ask for their money to be returned. No matter how many native people denounce Mala for his fraud, no action will be taken by the racist U.S. government against him until white people who have been bilked of their money are willing to admit they are wrong.

In a racist society, this will take a long, long time.

November 2008 it buy nothing new age month.

I hope that white people will voluntarily refrain from buying anything new age for this one month and reflect on how their blind consumerism hurts native people.

Please spread the word - November 2008 - BUY NOTHING!

Thank you
by spring duckett
(free_mother_earth [at] yahoo.com) Thursday Oct 2nd, 2008 9:36 AM
thank you mothers for speaking out. i would like to ask that if any elders have eyes to see these posts or ears to hear our cries that they share their wisdom, the old ways to deal with these things. prison is an ugly place but it is white justice. now dont get me wrong i am white but i dont think that it is justice, i cant pick and choose what's okay for the government to dictate and i havent seen anything that they do that would be considered of the spirit. as nice as it is to envision him in prison, i prefer to envision him forced spiritually to face his own monsters and the Great Spirit, to be healed of his demons, not consumed by them. if its just to hurt him i got better ideas than prison...thats too good for him. if any one has suggestions of where to look for elders to speak with, i will travel to them. i know they arent going to be online, but i dont want to just walk up into tribal community with these accusations, i want to go in a good way. i will honor the wisdom that comes. corbin was the most amazing person i have known and if he was here we would pray together at sunrise about it. who else will come forward to pray with me at sunrise? newe sogobia, i call to you, rise and honor your ways. they are not forgotten.
by Nafps insider
Tuesday Nov 25th, 2008 11:48 AM

John LeKay: When did you first hear about NAFPS and why did you join this group?

Robin: I first heard about the NAFPS through a member of their group. It was my first time that I had ever gone into a forum on the internet. When I first went into the forum, it was very foreign in the sense that there were many names of people in research and frauds, that I had never heard of. I tried to read through as many posts as I could to grasp what the main focus of the group was. However, I myself had a specific role to play when I joined the NAFPS and that was to involve myself on the inside of a group called the CKY to expose who and what the group was, to obtain as much information on the individuals as possible, especially those that held the ranks of what they called "priests, clan mothers, and chiefs".

JL: After reading the numerous posts in the so called "research" and in "fraud" columns, what was your initial gut reaction, your intuition telling you about to what you had read?

Robin: As I began to read through the posts on groups or individuals, I saw a pattern within the group which I had discussed with another member, and that was; for the number of members that were in the group, I saw only a small handful that posted or responded. Those that posted would sometimes cut and paste emails of outside individuals, without any substantial proof the person existed or what they said was truth. Most of the postings were based on mainly links provided, which many times led to more hearsay of others. Some links did provide, in reading, show that the the group or individual proven evidence that the public should be wary of. Also, I became aware that it was common practice that if a post was made of an individual or group, it was bombarded by several posts of accusations, hearsay, at times much deletion and editing (and in reading what was deleted or such that the person defending themselves did not write things that warranted such editing nor deletion). This reminded me of seeing a child in a school yard being ganged up by several children. These were usually posted as "childish behavior, insults, racial remarks" to give a few examples that were and still are used; giving the impression to many reading the post that the person defending themselves are viewed as a guilty person through unfounded remarks. When nothing more could be said, then another post would be started on a new subject or person. I, myself, saw a small portion of the many posts where someone from the group actually went out and gathered facts that were of credence.My own personal feelings on the matter was that I was involved within a group that was damaging people that may not have deserved what was printed about them. I knew that the nafps was not what it appeared and before Mr. Carroll and I had a disagreement, I had already made the decision to leave the group

JL: What conclusion did you draw as to what this group was about?

Robin: My conclusion of the group as a whole is based on not my opinion but facts. The whole system of the nafps is based on emotions of dysfunction, there are contradictions; much are based on "do as I say, not as I do". The group as a whole consists of white people that have little to no knowledge of native people and customs, except through books, cyberspace, and limited contact with native people. When there has been in the group - actual tribal members - when expressing their view on something, in most cases have been brushed aside or attacked. What is held sacred in the group is not that of native culture, but moreso of themselves and their beliefs on how native people should act or behave according to their standards. This is not a group that base their foundation on native culture, but that of personal beliefs of what they have either read, or picked up small bits of information from actual native people. The saying that some people know enough to make them dangerous, in this case it would rightly apply.

JL: Why did you have a disagreement with Mr. Carroll?

Robin: There had been communications between Al Carrol and myself about the CKY, and what I was going to do. Once I joined into the CKY group, I tried to converse with as many people as I could to gather whatever information I could. The CKY based their beliefs on new age of Atlantis with a mix of Mayan, very little Cherokee and other beliefs that were totally made up by members. As soon as I joined I was told I would call Jerry Edwards along with other male members "priests". I replied that if I was to follow "traditions" then they should do the same and speak to me only through my husband and not myself directly. This angered Jerry Edwards but not to the degree of kicking me out. About the third day of being a member, I had received a phone call stating there was a picture of me and a map of my location on their web page. I immediately emailed them and told them if they did not remove it I would contact the police and FBI.Within 2 weeks I received a letter from an attorney representing them with unethical threats. In first reading it, I thought it was a joke, due to the stationary used, the way the letter was worded unlike all the attorneys I know. So I called the attorney and it was not until I left a message that I was calling the bar association then did he return my call. In my conversation with him, he was very vague unlike the accusations that were stated in the letter. In the meantime I did begin the process to file a complaint against the attorney.I had retained an attorney in Ky. that would take the case. I had received a letter from Al Carroll that backed up what my case was based on. In the meantime, Al Carroll had posted on his site through a cut and paste that one of the members of the CKY was going to join the group, this person named Starr was one that was involved in the case we were building against the CKY and had given Edwards' attorney false information about me.When reading the post from Al Carroll in his group it as I said was a cut and paste of a letter that was to appear to be that of Starr. In his posting he said that Starr had seen the wrongs by the Edwards and was now going to join the nafps. This became a contradiction, and also a conflict of interest concerning my case against the Edwards, Starr and their attorney. When I stated to Al Carroll he was wrong for allowing her into the group at that time, I felt he was slapping me in the face as I stated to him. His response which he has now removed from the nafps board, but I have a copy of , was of this" did you not forget that you yourself was once a delusional and confused woman that was a member of the CKY"? This statement that he made was a means to validate what he was doing. And to make it appear that I was actually a real member of the CKY but had come to my senses and was converted into exposing frauds.So I posted emails between he and I showing what he was saying was not the truth, that he was compromising my case by changing his story of what the truth was. He deleted many of them shortly after I posted them. In his personal emails to me, he thought I was wrong for being angry, that what he had posted should have no bearing on my case( which in fact one of the strongest points in my case were based on what Al Carroll had stated in a letter to the bar association and the public) That I was disrespecting him, and then continued with emails with taunts. However he had for whatever reason changed his mind and instead posted that I myself was nothing more than a confused woman involved in a fraud group.Since that time he announced that this woman "Starr" had joined the nafps she made a intro post on July 12, 2006, but has never made any other posts or replies in the nafps.It was also at that time he was attacking Scarlett Kinney. She and I had come to an understanding of each other through mutual respect. I had read her site and in communication understood what she was trying to accomplish and that perhaps I could share some stories with her and some personal insight. This is by far selling out my traditions as stated by Al Carroll this past April in a group forum in Tennessee.I myself have been very busy and involved this past year with children that have been given up by their biological mothers and are wards of the state. My husband and I took a newborn in last July and just recently finalized the adoption. We are not licensed foster parents and do not receive any kind of assistance nor state aid for what we do, it comes from our pockets. As I stated to Al when he made the post that yes I was selling, but not traditions, I was selling my personal belongings to pay for the attorney fees in the adoption, and if he liked to go on ebay and see what I was selling, had sold and perhaps maybe he would buy something that would be making a positive contribution to a child that needed a good stable home. In the adoption process you must go through several background checks, criminal, physical, and psychological. My husband and I both passed and in fact it was recommended to the judge through these background checks that the process waive the 6 month grace period. If I was a unstable person or a person of questionable character I would not have been granted the adoption. That in itself shows the untruths that Al Carroll has said about me.

I have not had time to doing nothing more than care for children. No where have I sold out traditions, nor made public appearances in regards to ceremonies or teachings of traditions. Al Carroll posted under a unknown name, "That I had sold out to white exploiters" was traced to the Jordan School District in San Antonio, Texas. His posting of untruths about me has not come from research, but through words like that of a little boy that needs attention, whether it be good or bad. what is interesting about all this, I am not a public figure in no way whatsoever, I am a housewife, mother, grandmother nothing more. I have nothing to gain in the public's opinion of lying. The public opinion is not a priority in my life, what is, are the children I take in and care for.

JL: Were you also attacked by other members of the NAFPS group or just Al Carroll?

Robin: The dynamics within the group if attacks occur usually fall into the hands of two people, Al Carroll and Moma Porcupine. But if there were a conflict with Al Carroll, I believe that in my situation, if some did not agree with how Al handled the situation, they would not nor did they speak up on the matter. In fact is was quiet the opposite, no one spoke on the matter. It is more an attitude of sweep it under the rug and pretend it doesn't exist. And go on to the next subject. However I did forward an email to Barnaby from Al Carroll and I did this only to prove in fact I was truthful in the matter. The answer that came back from him was, " what do you want me to do about it?" In sending it I already knew that I would receive a response that would be of an answer such as that.

I did receive a personal email from Annika asking me to reconsider leaving the group, pointing to me that perhaps "Starr" was a changed person and should be given the chance to prove it. But she also stated that if "Starr" was not, it would be easy to see if it was more of a way for a fraud to come into the group to create discord. I did not have it in me to tell her, that I thought Al only wanted everyone to think "Starr" was part of nafps, for the reason which if looking at it from the outside view, was to get drama and more readers in the room at the time. This is also another tactic used to bring people in to read, to create sensational reading. But what it really is, a form of personality dysfunction.When it comes to confronting Al when he is wrong, there is no objectivity there within the group. It is a matter if you read the many posts he makes, you will not find any in the group that will voice or posts anything that might be in disagreement with what he says.

And if one does, the pattern is Moma Porcupine will come in and attack the person, then Al may come in with passiveness,. However they seem to tag team who is good cop / bad cop. Never do they log into the nafps at the same time. In fact when reading some of her more recent posts, there has been a large difference in how she writes. Which is leading me to believe the Moma Porcupine is actually a man pretending to be a woman, or perhaps a man that is like a woman. If you take a closer look at the two main attackers, Al Carrol and Moma Porcupine, why do they do this? Because they have the most to loose on the board, and that is the board itself.I did feel some undertone attacks with Moma Porcupine at times, which I found somewhat puzzling. Because most of the time it was based on unimportant and unrelated issues that were borderline paranoia. Other than Al Carroll and Moma Porcupine there were no others that attacked me, yet no one made any attempts to defend me either. It reminded me much of a person walking down the street and is mugged, many people walk by yet do nothing, some of the reasons people do this is, do not care, do not want to get involved, or fear alone. There are undertones of fear in the forum, which do remind me of someone living with an alcoholic, there is fear of unpredictability of not knowing what the person will say or do. Always on guard to defend the perpetrator. For fear of being rejected, smeared, damaged or hurt in some way.

JL: Do you know if other members of the group were smeared, damaged or hurt for confronting Al Carroll.

Robin: Yes there have been other members in the nafps that have been attacked.

JL: Who is Moma Porcupine, who is Barnaby McEwan and who is Annika Banfield? Are these the primary players other than Al Carroll? What do they do besides posting on nafps? Where do they live and work?

RL: Momma Porcupine is anonymous. She gives no information of who or what she is, nor where she lives or what she does. I believe she is a man and is actually two different people posting under that name. She has no intro in the group. Barnaby, I can only say he lives in the U.K. what he does, I have no information other than that. Annika is a friend of Al Carroll's she lives in Sweden and has done filming on native American issues.

JL: Do you see a behavioral pattern as to the dynamics of the group? In other words is there internal email dialogue amongst each other as to how they will deal with a NAFPS dissident for example?

Robin: Yes, there are emails that are sent between members in regards to issues posted and how one may handle the situation, what could be said, what to do and not do.
If receiving e mails from Al Carroll stating that if I talked to certain individuals, that it would also make me a fraud. I would have to say yes. I received 3 emails from him in regards to who I talk to. I would like to leave it up to anyone that might read this to form their own opinion of how they would view this as an outsider what this would be considered as.

JL: Al Carroll has been unable to prove his apache origin. The fact is he he is not enrolled, recognized or affiliated with any apache tribe. Using his mathematics, couldn't Barnaby McEwan hippy from England also say he is part Mescarleo apache? So could Annika Banfield who is from Sweden? Why you believe he has not been able to prove who he is or what his roots are and what exactly do you think this would mean to most Native Americans?

Robin: Al Carroll in his own words has stated in his blog were two comments from two native ladies, one he names is Annika, the other Momma Porcupine. Annika I suppose would be native of Sweden, but not here in the states, and Moma Porcupine has stated herself she is not Native American, so I do not know what that statement would actually mean if it is in the terms as I just stated. Otherwise it is a fabrication of Al Carroll trying to pass them off as Native American women.

I have seen many friends that are Native American that were adopted out, yet have been able to find and locate their biological families.

I have a daughter-in-law, her father is Hispanic and her mother is Hispanic/native mix, yet she herself does not say she is Mexican/Native mix, she says she is Mexican.
I have seen many Hispanic people for whatever reason say they are native, but has no proof to their bloodline of being native. When a person states they are unenrolled this means 1) Their native roots go so far back that they do not qualify with a tribe according the the tribes Blood Quantum requirements, 2) They can not produce any family names that would link them to a tribe.

In most cases ( I underlined most because it is not implying all) people that are unenrolled under say the two examples I gave, having no knowledge of the culture, language or ceremonies, and in Al Carroll's case I have only seen him use Lakota words which that in itself says quiet a lot. It says he knows very little to none of his own culture that he proudly shouts out. Yet not proud enough to learn it. In my family there are 3 tribes, I myself can converse with all of them. I have been taught the languages, the customs, the ceremonies.
If Al Carroll can not prove he is Apache, nor speak the language, or even know some of the customs, the question would be why does he find it necessary to say he is Mexican/Apache? If you look at what he actually does, that in itself will answer the question.

JL: Do you know how the apache feel about some one who claims to be representing them and is attacking other tribes and medicine people and meddling in their business? What is this doing for intertribal relations?

Robin: I have one friend that is from the White Mountain Apache Tribe. We have discussed this issue in the past. It has angered her to see Mexican people state they are Apache. As she has said "none of them speak our language, what do they know about being Apache?"
I am not a member of the Apache and can not speak for them, but what I will say on the subject is that no tribe wants anyone that is not appointed to speak for them, speak out on matters that concern their traditions or culture.
John if I may put it this way, you are from England, is that correct? How would the people in England feel if someone from a foreign country set up a web site to discuss matters of the political, and religious practices of England? How many Catholic Popes have declared Kings and Queens of England to be heretics? It is the same mind set. Do foreigners have the right to appoint themselves to be over seers of other countries? No, just like in this case with the nafps they do not have the right to oversee matters that do not concern them, they do not live under the same laws as those on reservations. They do not live in the conditions, nor walk out of their homes every morning and deal with the issues that many on the reservations are dealing with on a daily basis. There may be one or two on the board that might live in the Native communities and deal with these issues, but it does not give them the right to speak on behalf of their tribe or other tribes. The native communities are filled with gangs, violence, poverty, abuse, homeless, jobless. The forum itself instead of focusing on a handful of frauds, they would be more constructive if they were working with the tribes to help the many overcome the issues that I have pointed out. It is very sad to see in a recent posting that one of their members who works with his tribe to cultivate their natural resources to improve his tribe and preserve for their youth's future, to be put under a microscope by Moma Porcupine and try to imply that he is exploiting his culture.

Read what Martina Looking Horse, Arvol's sister has posted recently , in it she speaks about outsiders and the damage they have and are doing to the Lakota people. She herself along with many others do not want outside meddlers involved within the Lakota communities, customs or traditions. What would make the nafps exempt from this? Nothing, this includes all with no exceptions.

JL: Would you say that this group is doing more harm than good or vice versa?
Robin: I myself have seen very little positive come from the group. As a whole they may think they had done much good, however that is a state of denial that many of them are in. The tribes themselves are the ones that should and are handling frauds. To have people that are not enrolled in the tribes, having stepped out of their boundaries and have imposed themselves in matters that do not concern them is disrespecting the elders and traditions.

JL: Have you ever known this NAFPS group to retract their comments or humbly apologize to anyone?
Robin: I myself have never seen anyone apologize in a sincere or humbling manner. Nor have I seen anyone retract any comments made toward a person they were attacking.

by Sugestions
Wednesday Nov 26th, 2008 2:30 PM

Spring Duckett. If you want to be taken seriously the "right way" to deal with this is to report him to the appropriate authorities with your evidence.

The wrong way to deal with this is posting your vague allegations on NAFPS and on this thread . The reason being, anyone can make these anonymous posts and allegations including Al Carroll or his group members.

The same applies to this peron posting under the name "Teresa Maijala" If her daughter was abused then why doesn't she and these other women she speaks off report him to the authorities. Not dong so may be a violation of state law by the way.

If you are serious and want to know the legal requirements for reporting.

All 50 states require that professionals who work with children report reasonable suspicions of child abuse. Some states require that anyone with suspicions report it. Information about each state’s requirements is available at http://www.childwelfare.gov
or call the ChildHelp USA National Child Abuse Hotline, 1-800-422-4453.

If you are a professional who works with children (e.g., a teacher, a nurse), there are special procedures and reporting requirements you must follow. Your employer should provide mandated reporting training.


Know the agencies that handle reports of child abuse.
Two agencies handle most reports of child abuse
Child Protective Services (in some states this agency has a different name)

Some states designate Child Protective Services as the agency that accepts reports of suspected child abuse. Others designate the police. Some do not designate or designate both. Many states have centralized toll-free lines that accepts reports of abuse from the entire state. To find out where to make a report in your state, visit http://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/reslist/rl_dsp.cfm?rs_id=5&rate_chno=11-11172 or call the ChildHelp USA National Child Abuse Hotline, 1-800-422-4453.

If the legal system does not provide adequate protection for a child, call Justice for Children (713-225-4357) or http://www.jfcadvocacy.org.

What if I’m not sure? Where do I go?

Child advocacy centers coordinate all the professionals (legal and social services) involved in a case. If you’re unsure about whether to make an official report or just need support, contact a child advocacy center. They will help you evaluate your suspicions. To find one near you, contact National Children’s Alliance at http://www.nca-online.org or 1-800-239-9950.

Child Abuse Helplines have staff specifically trained to deal with questions about suspected child sexual abuse. Call Darkness to Light’s helpline, 1-866-FOR-LIGHT to be routed to resources in your own community, or call the ChildHelp USA National Child Abuse Hotline, 1-800-4-A-CHILD

Local Community Agencies, such as local hotlines, United Way offices, or rape crisis centers can often help

Talk to the child’s parents (as long as they are not the abusers) and provide educational materials, such as the 7 Steps booklet. If the parent seems indifferent or unlikely to take action, call one of the other recommended sources.

These resources can help if you are unsure about whether abuse has occurred, but they do not substitute for making an official report. Remember that you may be a mandated reporter in your state and you may be the only source of protection that the child has.

Mandatory Reporting Facts
All 50 states have passed some form of a mandatory child abuse and neglect reporting law in order to qualify for funding under the Child Abuse Prevention and Treatment Act (CAPTA)(Jan. 1996 version), 42 U.S.C. 5101, et seq.. The Act was originally passed in 1974, has been amended several times and was most recently amended and reauthorized on October 3, 1996, by the Child Abuse Prevention and Treatment and Adoption Act Amendments of 1996 (P.L. 104-235).
CAPTA mandates "minimum definitions" for child abuse and sexual abuse. Child abuse or neglect is any recent act or failure to act:
Resulting in imminent risk of serious harm, death, serious physical or emotional harm, sexual abuse, or exploitation

Of a child (usually a person under the age of 18, but a younger age may be specified in cases not involving sexual abuse)

By a parent or caretaker who is responsible for the child's welfare
Sexual abuse is defined as

Employment, use, persuasion, inducement, enticement, or coercion of any child to engage in, or assist any other person to engage in, any sexually explicit conduct or any simulation of such conduct for the purpose of producing any visual depiction of such conduct; or
rape, and in cases of caretaker or inter-familial relationships, statutory rape, molestation, prostitution, or other form of sexual exploitation of children, or incest with children.

Many states have modeled their laws after the Model Child Protection Act.

Every state has a hotline for reporting abuse and neglect.
by Suggestions
Wednesday Nov 26th, 2008 2:44 PM
Darkness to Light believes that adults should be taking proactive steps to protect children from this significant risk. It is unrealistic to think that a young child can take responsibility for fending off sexual advances by an adult. Adults are responsible for the safety of children. Adults are the ones who need to prevent, recognize and react responsibly to child sexual abuse. Yet, the statistics clearly show that adults aren’t shouldering this responsibility. Darkness to Light believes that adults just don’t know how.

http://darkness2light.org/KnowAbout/adults_responsible.asp






by spring duckett
(free_mother_earth [at] yahoo.com) Wednesday Feb 18th, 2009 11:23 PM
thank you for your "anonymous" suggestions. i do not agree with you that i should not post here because of politics. i posted here and on nafps because they are what i found through google when looking for others that might be speaking out about mala pope and his wrongdoings. i do think adults should be proactive in protecting children. that's why i choose to communicate publicly as best i know how and am quite willing to put a way to contact me. i dont live in oregon anymore, but i am doing my best to warn other parents to stay away from nanish shontie in blachly, oregon where mala lives and looking for answers and justice the best way i know how. the abuse against my daughter was reported, three years ago while she was in counseling because of the laws you mentioned. nothing has come of it. there are other documented cases of abuse against women and children by him in more than one country, yet he still walks free. i do not have faith in the system of government in this country, and you are a fool to think it protects anyone besides itself. people like leonard peltier sit and rot in prison while true criminals commit crimes and are never even tried for them. again, i am NOT looking for the government system, i am looking for the RIGHT WAY to deal with things. The system is not in any way the RIGHT way to do things.
by kevin
Wednesday May 20th, 2009 8:46 AM
I tried to access the NAFPS forum to report a possible fraud, i.e. spiritual adoptions at the price of 250$ all to find out the site has been taken down. I emailed in polite protest so hopefully a joint effort will get the site back up again.