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N.C. pastor stands by sign saying Koran should be flushed
by reposted
Wednesday May 25th, 2005 12:00 PM
(FOREST CITY) - A Baptist minister in Forest City refuses to apologize for a church sign saying the Muslim Koran should be flushed.
The Reverend Creighton Lovelace of Danieltown Baptist Church says he believes it's a statement that the Bible is above any other religious book "that does not teach Christ as savior and lord."

He says he knew some people would disagree with the sign but his church needs to stand up for what's right.

Local Muslim Seema Riley says the sign that reads "The Koran needs to be flushed" angered her.

The Pakistan native says she moved to Rutherford County, about 60 miles west of Charlotte, for the "small-town friendly" atmosphere.

She says the sign doesn't reflect what the county is about.

The sign is an apparent reference to a recent retracted Newsweek magazine article that said US interrogators at Guantanamo Bay had flushed a Koran down the toilet to get inmates to talk. The story touched off riots.
by Steve
Wednesday May 25th, 2005 12:26 PM
Free speech's a bitch, isn't it?
by free speech runs two ways
Wednesday May 25th, 2005 12:43 PM
Do you think Christ would have posted such meanspirited signs?

Share your feelings with the hateful Rev. Lovelace


It appears their website is down or no longer functioning:

While you're at it, share your feelings with town officials

City Manager
Charles R. Summey, II
csummey [at]

Mayor and Board of Commissioners

James W. Gibson, Mayor
156 McCall Drive
Forest City, NC 28043
828-245-2719 (Home)
jimmy_gibson [at]

Charles Z. Flack, Jr.
232 Forest Hill Dr.
Forest City, NC 28043
828-245-4067 (Home)

Helyn G. Lowery
203 Ogle Street
Forest City, NC 28043

Tommy McBrayer
311 Old Caroleen Rd.
Forest City, NC 28043
828-245-8236 (Home)
828-245-2444 (Office)

David Eaker
260 McCall Drive
Forest City, NC 28043
828-245-5634 (Home)

Harold K. Stallcup
232 Georgia Ave.
Forest City, NC 28043
828-245-4924 (Home)
Mayor Pro-Tem

All town information above publicly available at:

by truth defender
Wednesday May 25th, 2005 1:04 PM
The real life historical figure of Jesus Christ was quite different than what the Gospels make him out. He was not a peaceful or pacifist persona but a militantly religious, jingoistic, revolutionary character who both advocated violence and acted violently. Why else do you think he proclaimed, "I have come not to bring peace to the earth but a SWORD?"; why else would he exhort his followers to buy themselves small arms even if they had to sell their garments to afford the purchase? Not to mention his violent behavior inside the Temple compound in which he whipped peddlers and moneychangers, overturned their tables drove them out? Amazingly, all of these references to Jesus' violent militancy have survived the redaction of the NT by the early Church censors.
by C.Cameron
Wednesday May 25th, 2005 1:07 PM

I wrote a letter to my commanding officer. Those beings are not even people but rather vermin.
by LBC
Wednesday May 25th, 2005 1:08 PM
Does merely believing Jesus is the son of God mean you'll go to Heaven? Of course not. If Adolf Hitler believed Jesus is the son of God, does that mean he's in Heaven notwithstanding all the American soldiers he killed? Of course not. If Lee Harvey Oswald believed Jesus is the son of God, does that mean he's in Heaven despite all the prostitutes he hired? Of course not. If O.J. Simpson believes Jesus is the son of God, does that mean he's going to Heaven even though he married a white woman? Of course not.

The vast majority of those claiming they are Christian today don't have a clue. They don't have a Christian bone in their bodies. They claim they know God loves them because they saw a banner at a college football game that said "John 3:16." Well, let me tell you something, friends and true believers, there are a heck of a lot more Bible verses than John 3:16.

I've pointed out to some of these liberal Gore lovers that God has historically hated sinners and frequently condemned them to painful deaths. For instance, as a lesson to those who have the audacity to show physical love for the same gender, God incinerated the genitals, mouths and every other orifice involved in such sexual practices in the towns of Sodom and Gomorra (Genesis 19:24-25). As a lesson to those who are fat and sloppy, God struck a town of gluttons with a vicious plague which made that last drumstick taste none-too-good and wiped out every living person (Numbers 11:33-34). As a lesson to youngsters who fail to be seen and not heard, God sent a bear to maul to death a couple dozen children who had teased a bald man (2 Kings 2:23-24). And during one particularly bad mood, God threw the lessons out the window and killed every man, woman, child and infant on the planet (except Noah's family) with a Great Flood (Genesis 7:23). It's a good thing these John 3:16 liberals weren't living then.

God didn't do all the slaughtering and mangling on his own. His chosen people, the Israelites, served as his assassins on more than one occasion. God told the Israelites to kill all the men and rape the women and children in the towns they invaded (Deuteronomy 20:13-16). God told the Israelites to take any child who dared to disobey his parents to the town square and hurl stones at his body and head until the tot's corpse was lifeless (Deuteronomy 21:18-21). God takes took no prisoners.

When I cite these Biblical passages, do you know what these modern day immoral pseudo-Christians have the audacity to say? "Jesus took all that away." That is utter blasphemy, my friends! The very idea that the words of the Son somehow trump the words of his Father is nonsensical on its face. Do you think a Father who had spent so much time talking about killing disobedient children would allow His own upstart Son to tell folks to ignore everything His Daddy had ever said? I don't think so. If Jesus had even tried to do this, God would have yanked Him back to Heaven and given Him a good whupping with a rod. Jesus, Himself, admitted that he is subordinate to the Father who rules over Him (1 Corinthians 11:3). Jesus told the apostles that He had not come to destroy the law of the prophets of old, rather, He had come to fulfill that law (Matthew 5:17). Jesus approved of his Father's command that children who curse their parents are to be put to death (Matthew 15:3-4). Jesus chastised the Pharisees for failing to kill those children who defied their parents' commands (Mark 7:9-13). Jesus told us we are to live our lives in fear of God for God has the power not only to kill us, but to torture us forever in Hell (Luke 12:5). Jesus never contradicted his Father's word, and anyone who suggests otherwise is going straight to Hell.

The smell of blood and roasted corpses was not just pleasing to God, who especially enjoyed the aroma after the Great Flood (Genesis 8:21), it was enjoyed by Jesus as well. Jesus certainly wasn't averse to malicious, virulent punishments to those who didn't accept His every word as Gospel. To name but a few, Jesus told the disciples to bring before Him any man who didn't believe in Him, and to violently slaughter the non-believer while Jesus watched (Luke 19:27). Jesus killed one man by having his body eaten by a swarm of worms because the man failed to give Jesus His due (Acts 12:23). Jesus struck a Jew blind for thwarting His teachings (Acts 13:8-11). He struck a man dumb for failing to listen well (Luke 1:20). He took the lives of a husband and wife by scaring them to death for not forking over all the money they made on a real estate transaction (Acts 5:1-10). During one particularly temperamental time when Jesus was hungry, He even killed a fig tree for failing to bear figs, even though Jesus knew figs weren't in season (Mark 11:12-14). Jesus means business!

Recognizing that He had neither the time nor wherewithal to torture and maim all of the countless sinners of the world, Jesus ordered us to torture ourselves by chopping off any body parts that are engaged in sin. Those who practice sexual self-gratification are to chop off their arms. Those who have sexual thoughts for people other than their spouses are to gouge out their eyes (Mark 9:43-47). The wrath of Jesus is no less than the wrath of the Father.

But the clearest proof of the Son's wrath are his promises to inflict unconscionable pain and suffering on those who decline to follow His and His Father's word. Jesus said sinners cannot enter Heaven. All sinners, most notably, those who engage in premarital sex will be forever estranged from God. "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)."

And what happens to sinners since they cannot enter Heaven? Come Judgment Day, they shall be gathered together and hurled into a furnace of fire where there will be uncontrollable wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 13:41-42, 50). Entire cities of people who don't believe will suffer a fate worse than that of Sodom and Gomorra (Mark 6:11). Jesus told us that God, who we already knew is subject to violent episodes, will take "vengeance on them that know not God" by burning them forever "in flaming fire" (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9).

The brutality and destruction will not be entirely blase, though. There will be great sparks of creativity. Come Judgment Day, the Lord will create horse-like locusts will human heads, women's hair, lion's teeth and scorpion's tails which will sting and inflict savage pain on sinners for five months (Revelation 9:7-10). As a result of the fires, plagues and beasts He inspires, the world will be covered in unburied dead bodies, rotting everywhere, while good Christians, like those at Landover, will "rejoice over them and make merry, and shall send gifts to one another" (Revelation 11:5-10). Meanwhile, the smoke of the burning, rotting bodies will ascend and plague the Earth forever (Revelation 14:10-11). And the smell will attract scavenger birds who will feast upon "the supper of the great God" (Revelation 19:17-18).

As Roosevelt did to Nagasaki, Jesus will use every weapon at His disposal to torture sinners. He will send an earthquake to kill 7,000 people (Revelation 11:13). And to add just a bit more drama, He will exercise his wrath by inflicting bodily sores, turning the seas and rivers to blood, scorching everyone with fire, causing people to consume their own tongues in pain, and causing horrendous storms which will strike dead the now speechless (though sated) sinners (Revelation 16:1-21).

All of these descriptions of the rapture, friends, every last one of them, comes straight from the New Testament. And we know that every single word of the New Testament was inspired by Jesus, Himself. Is Jesus Mr. Lovey-Dovey-turn the other cheek-Goodie-Two-Shoes, like all these demonic liberals would have us believe? Not at all. Countless New Testament passages show Jesus was as vengeful, angry and violent as his Father, perhaps more so. Of course, if you ignore these thousands of Bible passages and just focus on the one -- John 3:16 -- you can live in a fantasy world believing you are going to Heaven even though 587 other verses say you'll burn for eternity in Hell. Like the ostrich, these John 3:16 liberals stick their heads in the sand, refusing to accept the remainder of the New Testament. Well, I have news for them. That sand won't protect them from the giant flames which will one day engulf their bodies -- flames sent by each member of the Holy Trinity, Jesus included. I wonder how persuasive their recitation of John 3:16 will be as the skin burns off their bones?
by Silvienne
Wednesday May 25th, 2005 1:10 PM
You wrote:

"Those beings are not even people but rather vermin."

I'm really puzzled.
by RWF
(restes60 [at] Wednesday May 25th, 2005 1:45 PM
. . . I like my political enemies to be out in the open.

by Steve Wednesday, May. 25, 2005 at 12:26 PM

Free speech's a bitch, isn't it?]

by Malachi 2:2-3
Wednesday May 25th, 2005 1:46 PM
“If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the Lord of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart. Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it”.
by Action speaks lounder
Wednesday May 25th, 2005 2:26 PM
I find the bible study pieces unwarrented and unnecessary. It has nothing ot do with the issue at hand: A bigoted preacher put up bigoted remarks on his church. This is wrong and someone in the area should remove those words of hate. Wear gloves and don't get caught.
Complaining to the city government is beyond stupid. It notifes them that people are angry at this piece of free speech. They will be protecting it more, therefore any chance at direct action will be lessened.

by TW
Wednesday May 25th, 2005 2:28 PM
suspect there will be no more updates
by truth defender
Wednesday May 25th, 2005 2:33 PM
I wouldn't have illuminated Jesus' real personality if it weren't for the question written by "free speech runs two ways". Religious disinformation has no place on a site used by rational and even quite a few atheists people.
by scramble letters to scramble minds
Wednesday May 25th, 2005 2:40 PM

literally hundreds of possible anagrams. here's just a handful:


wild youth of Forest City, go ahead and confuse them a little. make them think a little. maybe their minds will contort out of their dogmatic boxes if even for a brief moment.
by hawk
Wednesday May 25th, 2005 2:43 PM
The CJS will therefore be working closely with others to improve the experiences of victims and witnesses when they come into contact with the system.

by C. Cameron
Wednesday May 25th, 2005 2:52 PM
Keep up the fight! Your strength is in your unity!
by One Question
Wednesday May 25th, 2005 2:54 PM
Can you name a passage whereby Jesus was meanspirited about another religion?

Nothing was said about Jesus's militancy or lackthereof in post you refer to.

Attacking organized religion, his own, by the way, and greedy merchants, is not the same as being meanspirited about another religion. Those are dealing with the impersonalization of organized religion and economic inequities suffered by the poor. Maybe you do have a scatological reference regarding Jesus's meanspiritedness towards another religion with which you will enlighten us all.

Of course, the religiosity of readers here is besides the point as well, as per your comment about atheists who frequent these parts.
by Silvienne
Wednesday May 25th, 2005 3:04 PM
You wrote:

"Those beings are not even people but rather vermin."

"The message would have been pretty different

There wasn't koran at that time "

I couldn't agree more. There was not a Koran, so there was no taliban or Al-Qaeda. Otherwise, the message woould have been absolutely different.

by Just Curious
Wednesday May 25th, 2005 3:10 PM
What did you run tell your big strong daddy, your "commanding officer?"

What was the "warning" all about anyway?
by C. Comeron
Wednesday May 25th, 2005 3:12 PM

None of your business. Right? Mind your own yard.
by Just Curious
Wednesday May 25th, 2005 3:14 PM
Now run go cry to your big strong daddy again that you got called on your BS.
by Hate is eating him up.
Wednesday May 25th, 2005 3:24 PM
And then you bend over backwards to protect his hate.

I'm so sure the Rev. Lovenothing is a genuinely happy man and nice to all those around him. His meanspiritedness is completely unrelated to everything else in his life.

by truth defender
Wednesday May 25th, 2005 3:26 PM
"Can you name a passage whereby Jesus was meanspirited about another religion?"

I don't have a NT within reach now. The point though is, the real Jesus, a very observant Jew, was also fervently anti-pagan. You don't need a direct quote from scripture for proof because deduction suffices. Anyway, other apparently unredacted verses quote him as saying (I'm gleaning these excerpts from memory), "Do not imagine that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete [or fulfill] them... not one dot, not one little stroke shall disappear from the Law until its purpose is achieved. Therefore the man who infringes even one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be considered the least in the Kingdom of Heaven". One can reasonably infer from this passage that Jesus was hostile to religions other than Judaism.

Anyway, all this is besides the real point. You misunderstood my intent and ended up also picking on trivial and insignificant minor points in my previous post. I don't get what you're really trying to state by doing this. The takeaway message you should have come away with was my attempt to show the poster that posed the rhetorical question that the ostensibly obvious answer he was implying is far from being obvious.

Why don't you read with all due attention. I didn't say he would have scribed such meanspirited messages for sure.

If the religiosity of readers here is besides the point then the poster above shouldn't have denigrated my first post which he dubbed "bible study pieces" as not belonging here.
by A Christian
Wednesday May 25th, 2005 3:29 PM

He is really a happy man since he's a father for his parishioners and mainly for the poor, and so spiritual. He's really an angel living on the earth

by redcat
Wednesday May 25th, 2005 3:31 PM

You are absolutely right. According to the Gospel, he always kept the Torah, and he used to going and pray in the Temple of Jerusalem.
by Give me a break.
Wednesday May 25th, 2005 3:42 PM
And then the Lord sayeth unto thee, "Let those who are the most spiritual amongst us besmerch other religions with toilet signs."

Yeah, spiritual. If he was so spiritual, he's spend more time on those supposed poor people and less thinking up not-so-clever signage to attack other faiths.
by you must have missed it
Wednesday May 25th, 2005 3:45 PM
they got hidden, but some jesus freak(s), probably just one, was posting massive bible quotes

that comment wasn't referring to you, I don't think

count yourself lucky for having been spared the passages
by nice try
Wednesday May 25th, 2005 3:50 PM
yeah, so sure there's just screaming hoards of muslims in this tiny town ready to kill the good Rev. Strangelove's children

funny that those in the smallest towns, in the red states, are the ones most afraid of terrorists, or muslims, or whatever their paranoid minds dream up, and those in the places most likely to actually get attacked know that Bush and the evengelicals are basically nuts and really want to establish an American taliban complete with religious police to burn films and "sacriligious" art etc.
by and you know it
Wednesday May 25th, 2005 4:10 PM
is about ready to start doin' some killin' himself

start with burning books, taking over various governments, outlawing "perverse" lifestyles, punishing those who "disobey"

killing is just a short, very short, hop skip and jump from hateful and meanspirited signage. this jerk feels little compulsion to keep his hate to himself. anyone who doesn't fit his hateful ideal is in danger. if he doesn't do any lynching himself, I'm sure there's plenty of others who will step up after his blatanct incitements (and I'll bet this isn't the first hateful sign he's had -- probably anti-gay before as well, etc., etc.)
by truly brainwashed
Wednesday May 25th, 2005 4:18 PM
"They're all ofver the world..."

What garbage----do you get all your info from Fox news and right-wing-nut AM radio?----Islam (the religion) is not a threat. Some who practice fundamentalist Islam, as well as some who practice fundamentalist Christinaity are a threat. (See BushCo. for examples)
by but no cigar
Wednesday May 25th, 2005 6:31 PM
this post is about the bigot with a sign in NC

not a chance for bigots like yourself to feel superior
by just curious
Wednesday May 25th, 2005 6:38 PM
you talk a lot of smack, but you sit here stateside, too chickshit (er, chickenhawk) to put your ass where your mouth is

there's a recruitment shortage, donchaknow? why? because there's millions of pro-war, racists out there just like yourself cheering on W's war but far too scaredycat to actually fight for what you at least say you believe in

chickenhawk hypocrit
by yeah, and Chistianity is a religion of peace
Wednesday May 25th, 2005 6:49 PM
As we can see by looking at the born agin walking sack of garbage in the whitehouse
Thursday May 26th, 2005 8:00 AM
please provide me the quotes outof the Koran that "orders" them to kill Jews and muslims---I just got done reading the Koran as part of a philosphies of religion class and I don't recall anything of the sort---please provide back up for these allegations
by just as I thought
Thursday May 26th, 2005 8:18 AM
You can't produce the quotes, because they're not there. As I told you, I just read the entire Koran (not a very long book) for a class--and was very interested in it simply for current day political relevance---let me iterate that I don't practice any religion---but I certainly see religious fundamentalists--Christian and Muslim---as very dangerous people
But if you're going to make an allegation, and want to engage in real discussion/debate, you might want to have the proof to back it up. (Especially when you allege that the Koran "tells people to kill Christians and Jews")
by just as I thought
Thursday May 26th, 2005 8:41 AM
your words " I don't now have my Koran at hand. But I can provide you with more information from the internet"

In your exact words, "the Koran orders them to kill Jews and Christians". There isn't a place in the Koran that says this. Period. You make generalizaions. There are admittedly, Muslims who believe this. There are also plenty of violent Christians and Jews, many who spew, similar rhetoric about Muslims. (Check hundreds of chatroom discussions probably happening right now for evidence of this---I wish I had a dollar for every time I've seen sayings like "Kill them all", ect. in reference to Muslims.)
by none that give kill orders
Thursday May 26th, 2005 8:55 AM
none that give kill orders for Jews and Christians---that's a lofty allegation you made and it was false. accept it.
by more on Koran desecration
Thursday May 26th, 2005 12:16 PM
FBI Files Show Guantanamo Detainees Reported Desecration of Koran Beginning in 2002

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One prisoner interviewed in August 2002, said that guards had flushed the Koran in the toilet. Others reported the Koran being kicked, withheld as punishment and thrown on the floor. On Wednesday, the American Civil Liberties Union released these newly declassified documents. [includes rush transcript]
Newly declassified documents released by the FBI reveal detainee claims of Koran desecration by US guards at Guantanamo as early as 2002. The documents were obtained by the American Civil Liberties Union and include numerous summaries of FBI interviews with prisoners.
One prisoner interviewed in August 2002, said that guards had flushed the Koran in the toilet. Others reported the Koran being kicked, withheld as punishment and thrown on the floor.

Donna Lieberman, Executive Director of the New York chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union.
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Read the FBI documents

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AMY GOODMAN: This is White House spokesperson Scott McClellan last week.

REPORTER: You said that the retraction by Newsweek magazine of its story is a good first step. What else does the President want this American magazine to do?

SCOTT McCLELLAN: Well, it's what I talked about yesterday. This report, which Newsweek has now retracted and said was wrong, has had serious consequences. People did lose their lives. The image of the United States abroad has been damaged. There is lasting damage to our image because of this report. And we would encourage Newsweek to do all that they can to help repair the damage that has been done, particularly in the region, and I think Newsweek can do that by talking about the way they got this wrong and pointing out what the policies and practices of the United States military are when it comes to the handling of the Holy Koran. The military put in place policies and procedures to make sure that the Koran was handled or is handled with the utmost care and respect. And I think it would help to point that out, because some have taken this report, those that are opposed to the United States, some have taken this report and exploited it, and used it to incite violence.

REPORTER: Well, with respect, who made you the editor of Newsweek? Do you think it's appropriate for you at that podium speaking with the authority of the President of the United States to tell an American magazine what they should print?

SCOTT McCLELLAN: I'm not telling them. I’m saying that we would encourage them to help --

REPORTER: Pressuring them.

SCOTT McCLELLAN: No, I’m saying we would encourage them --

REPORTER: Not pressure?

SCOTT McCLELLAN: Look, this report caused serious damage to the image of the United States abroad, and Newsweek has said that they got it wrong. You know, I think Newsweek recognizes the responsibility they have. We appreciate the step that they took by retracting the story. Now we would encourage them to move forward and do all that they can to help repair the damage that has been done by this report. And that’s all I’m saying.

REPORTER: Scott, are you going to --

SCOTT McCLELLAN: No, you're absolutely right. It's not my position to get into telling people what they can and cannot report.

AMY GOODMAN: White House spokesperson Scott McClellan at a news conference last week. Since then, media outlets and human rights groups have revealed scores of allegations of abuse of the Koran by U.S. interrogators and others. McClellan has now retreated on claims that Newsweek’s retracted story cost lives in Afghanistan. This is from a White House news conference on Monday.

REPORTER: Karzai was quite definite in saying that he didn't believe that the violence in Afghanistan was directly tied to the Newsweek article about Koran desecration, yet from this podium, you have made that link. So --

SCOTT McCLELLAN: Actually, I don't think you are actually characterizing what was said accurately.

REPORTER: By whom?

SCOTT McCLELLAN: Now, as I said last week, and as President Karzai said today, and as General Myers had said previously, the protests may well have been pre-staged. The discredited report was damaging. It was used to incite violence, but those who espouse an ideology of hatred and oppression and murder don't need an excuse to incite violence. But the reports from the region showed how this story was used to incite violence.

REPORTER: President Karzai seemed to think that wasn't what led to the violence.

SCOTT McCLELLAN: That’s right, he actually, he talked about -- President Karzai spoke about how the demonstrations were aimed at undercutting the progress being made toward democracy in Afghanistan and the progress on elections. They have elections coming up soon, and I spoke about that, as well, last week.

REPORTER: So, could it be said that the Newsweek article played a role but was not --

SCOTT McCLELLAN: John, I think we have made our views known when it comes to the discredited report. There are some that want to continue to defend what is a discredited report that has been disavowed by Newsweek, and that's their business. We're perfectly willing to trust the American people to make their own judgment about it.

AMY GOODMAN: That was Scott McClellan, White House press spokesperson. Joined now by Donna Lieberman, executive director of the New York chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union. Welcome to Democracy Now!


AMY GOODMAN: It’s good to have you with us. We're going to talk about the Newsweek controversy in a minute and talk about which lies actually took lives over the last few years. But can you talk about the latest documents that have just been declassified from the F.B.I.?

DONNA LIEBERMAN: Yeah. The ACLU is getting thousands of pages every couple of weeks from the F.B.I., and the most recent batch of documents includes a couple -- several documents which are F.B.I. interviews with detainees, in which they accuse their jailers of beatings and a whole range of violence against them and of abusing the Koran. Included in those documents are complaints of throwing the Koran on the floor, withholding it, kicking it, and also flushing it down the toilet.

AMY GOODMAN: These documents have just come out.

DONNA LIEBERMAN: These have just come out. The government releases them to us and to the press at the same time.

AMY GOODMAN: And who are the detainees who are saying this? Are these released detainees?

DONNA LIEBERMAN: No. These -- when you read the documents, it's revealing, because if you remember when in the old days when people would ask for their F.B.I. files, and there are huge blank spots on the papers, well, it's just like that. And literally, there are pages with just everything whited out and just a couple of sentences. And these are documents created by the F.B.I. They’re internal memos on the interviews with the detainees while they are in custody, and they’re revealing.

AMY GOODMAN: And who did they say was doing the desecration of the Koran?

DONNA LIEBERMAN: Well, the desecration was done by the guards. We don't have names. Those are all blanked out. We don't have the names of the detainees who are making the complaints, but the internal F.B.I. memos document time and time again that there are complaints of physical violence, which is beyond comprehension and of abuse, religious abuse, and the kicking or flushing down the toilet of the Koran is just part of it. There are allegations – there are complaints here of the use of female guards by the United States to sexually abuse and harass the detainees, as well, using their sexuality and what they believe to be the Muslim views of sexuality and bodies to humiliate and intimidate and make it impossible for people to practice their religion, as well.

AMY GOODMAN: Now, these are F.B.I. documents?


AMY GOODMAN: Are there others from other agencies?

DONNA LIEBERMAN: Oh, absolutely. We have – our Freedom of Information Act request, which has been going on for years now, and which the government has resisted every way it possibly can. We have to go to court in order to get an order for the government to comply. We have gone after the documents of the Department of Defense, the C.I.A. and the F.B.I. The F.B.I. is the only agency that has fully complied thus far. And the C.I.A. is resisting big-time. In fact, the case is on in court today. We have asked for, in addition to written verbal documents, we have asked for pictures and videos, and the C.I.A. -- you will like this -- claims that it can't release photographs because that would violate the Geneva Conventions, because it would compromise the privacy of the detainees.

AMY GOODMAN: And that's in court today?

DONNA LIEBERMAN: That's in court today. Yes.

AMY GOODMAN: Donna Lieberman, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union, New York chapter of the New York Civil Liberties Union. When we come back, we'll continue to talk about the Newsweek controversy, and talk about what this means for journalism today. Who’s telling lies? When were they told? And when do the lies take lives? Stay with us.

To purchase an audio or video copy of this entire program, click here for our new online ordering or call 1 (800) 881-2359.
by more
Saturday May 28th, 2005 9:06 AM
NASHVILLE, Tenn. (BP)--The president and chief executive officer of the Southern Baptist Convention Executive Committee, Morris H. Chapman, issued a public statement May 24 expressing disapproval about a church sign that carried a disrespectful message about the Koran.

The portable display in front of Danieltown Baptist Church in Rutherford County, N.C., reads, "The Koran needs to be flushed."

The church is affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention.

“Of course, the Koran does not support the beliefs of Southern Baptists, but we recognize and respect the rights of Muslims to believe as they choose,” Chapman said. “Furthermore, Southern Baptists wish to relate to our Muslim neighbors in a respectful manner that allows mutual sharing of our beliefs.”

The sign is an apparent reference to a Newsweek article, since retracted, that alleged that U.S. interrogators at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, had placed copies of Islam’s holy book in washrooms and had flushed one down the toilet to get inmates to talk. The article incited deadly riots in Afghanistan and caused large protests in Muslim countries around the world.

According to The Daily Courier in Forest City, N.C., the pastor of the church, Creighton Lovelace, is not apologizing for the sign.

"I believe that it is a statement supporting the Word of God and that it (the Bible) is above all and that any other religious book that does not teach Christ as Savior and Lord as the 66 books of the Bible teaches it, is wrong," Lovelace said. "I knew that whenever we decided to put that sign up that there would be people who wouldn't agree with it, and there would be some that would, and so we just have to stand up for what's right."

Chapman said that he did not know Lovelace personally, but that he had no doubt that the pastor “believes strongly in the Bible as God’s Word and Jesus Christ as the sole means of salvation for mankind, as do all Southern Baptists.”

However, Chapman said, “It is lamentable that Rev. Lovelace displayed a message on the sign in front of his church that applauds the desecration of the Koran.

Chapman explained that the Southern Baptist Convention is not a monolithic institution but that the consensus of Southern Baptists likely would react negatively to Lovelace’s message.

"The Southern Baptist Convention does not control the actions of any member church. It is not a denominational hierarchy. We cooperate as a network of churches and each church is autonomous, acting under its own authority.

"However, I know the heartbeat of Southern Baptists and I’m confident they will deeply regret the public display of this disrespectful comment about the Koran."
by CN
Saturday May 28th, 2005 9:07 AM
A North Carolina pastor on Wednesday apologized for posting a sign outside his church that suggested the Koran should be “flushed” in a toilet.

Creighton Lovelace, pastor of Danieltown Baptist Church in Forest City, wrote in a statement that he “did not realize how people of the Muslim faith view the Koran – that devoted Muslims view it more highly than many in the United States view the Bible.”

Lovelace had displayed a portable sign that read, “The Koran needs to be flushed,” and sparked a firestorm of criticism from Muslim and Christian leaders across the nation – including members from his own denomination, the Southern Baptist Convention.

According to the Daily Courier, Lovelace had initially refused to apologize, telling journalists that he knew the sign would be offensive because it is the truth.

However, after several days, Lovelace reversed course and said his intentions had been to “exalt the Bible and its teaching,” not to “insult any people of faith.”

"Now I realize how offensive this is to them, and after praying about it, I have chosen to remove the sign. I apologize for posting that message and deeply regret that it has offended so many in the Muslim community,” he wrote in his statement, according to the Courier.

Lovelace also said his church sign’s message has been replaced with a new one that reads “Jesus said, ‘I am the way.’”
by Mandee Webb
(mandee81 [at] Saturday Jun 4th, 2005 4:00 AM
How is it right to give out personal phone numbers you should be charged you dumb fuck..There is a thing called free speech. if his congergation agree let it be..when you go by the fucking sign DON'T LOOK AT IT. simple as that. i mean damn..this is a bunch of bullshit, in my eyes. Creig is a good friend of mine, doesn't mean that I agree with what he says..
Plz email me if you have anything to say to me. :D
by Tom
Sunday Jul 17th, 2005 2:45 PM
I own a business in Downtown Forest City and am a lifelong resident of the area.
First, Danieltown area gets their mail as Forest City, but is NOT in the city limits of FC, so complaining to all the town officials has zero effect. Try the Rutherford County Commisioners instead. should get it.
Secondly, these little instances of hatred and other extremism are always the ones that get publicized. This "Preacher" has since left the Baptist associations and is in all likelyhood on his way totally out of any meaningful pulpit.
Southerners are too easily pegged as rednecks, racists o worse, everytime a rat bastard like that Preacher get national publicity it sets the remaining progessive 99% of the local population back 30 years. We hate him more than you.