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The D/DC Gay Shame Award
The Gay Shame Awards and D/DC
FYI-- The Model Minority award category that D/DC was in ultimately went to Eminem...sorry guys...
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striped
thug
Posts: 7
(7/9/03 6:41 pm)
Reply thanx
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
thanks for this thread guys. it really great that it is here, and that fucked-up awards or politics are called out.
Ralowe and Reginald
thug
Posts: 1
(7/13/03 12:35 pm)
Reply > attn: sf people. regarding gay shame.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Testing this shit. Hold up.
Ralowe and Reginald
thug
Posts: 2
(7/13/03 1:43 pm)
Reply > > attn: sf people. regarding gay shame.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From the two gay shame token negroes:
As Juba so eloquently described us, the reason for D/DC's nomination was to draw attention the fact that they play into the most white liberal guilt aspects of identity politics as opposed to actually dealing with any sincere emotions or inspiration in the perpetration of their music. I, Reginald have never seen them perform outside of an all-white context and I felt, as a negro that their work was only for the white people in the audience and not for me. Since what so much of what they seem to be about seems to be politics I wondered about the politics of exclusion. It re-centers whiteness and white supremacy to only focus on the white liberal response in your performance to your performance and not consider the black people in the audience. We as black artists do not only make work to be seen and consumed by white people. If any of you have seen a D/DC show, you can attest to this. See, it's complicated. At the bottom of this posting there will be a verbatim re-cap of the original exchange when I left D/DC and why, which wasn't simply because they refused to show up for a show that was...
Posted all over SAN FRANCISCO ON FLIERS WITH D/DC'S NAME ON IT...
The most insidious position that people of color can ever be put in is the position of only being able to speak about race. That was the reason I left the group and the reason why they got nominated for a Gay Shame award. Don't you understand that? Or are all of you too caught up in white guilt to be "Oh My God, these invioable sad black artists...they can't possibly be doing anything wrong...?" Is anyone on this board capable of any real critique of white supremacy and how identity politics plays into it or are all of you just reactionary dickwads? Juba and Tim'm are very very very smart and went to a lot of school and have done a lot of reading about race. I (Ralowe speaking) have not. Tim'm went to France and read the writings of Foucault on race. He knows what the fuck is going on, and all of you are falling for this huge guilt ruse, that as Juba explained, he's trying to exploit and get money out of. That disgusts me deeply. I guess I don't have any moral agendas to put on other folks (people can sell drugs, be contract killers, work for a bank) but I decided not to be part of it. I cannot make art in a world where I have to trade on people's perceptions of me to be accepted .....WHICH IS A BIG ISSUE, don't you think?, and is why I left the group, BECAUSE THAT WAS ALL THAT IT WAS ABOUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think it's cute how Juba feels the need to very carefully tally the number of people of color involved in Gay Shame as if that made a difference.
I, Ralowe, not Reginald, (we need to make clear) created the Model Minority Award. I felt that there needed to be a critique of the fascinating white liberal phenomenon that is Deep Dickollective, and I'm very pleased with the response. It makes me feel wonderful that all of you are pissed off, because even though we are, as you presume, such disempowered and helpless black gay commodities, as your identity politics choose to relegate us to, we are in fact not above critique and need to be made accountable for our cultural productions and the political implications that they have, you know, like conforming, complicity etc... it's not enough to dismiss the award as an art school arty punk rock faux-radical posturing because focussing on that misses the point of the critique. It should be stated that this critique is not coming from the arty white folks in the group... it's coming from the arty black folks, meaning me and Ralowe, but putting it out there, as it was, it's for everybody, clearly. I have issues with Gay Shame.
We, Reginald and Ralowe, were not part of the planning, and I, Ralowe was not there when the award was handed out because I was working on music and I didn't think that it was really necessary to go to the Casto again with this little thing we do. It should be said that we both ambivalently participate in Gay Shame out of a need to exist in a space outside of the mainstream gay community and not to be totally isolated. Ralowe leaving D/DC clearly meant that his voice in that context could not be heard. Remember the Guardian article? In the Gay Shame context it can despite its shortcomings. I felt that my voice was less likely to be censored at Gay Shame than as it was in the D/DC context, as will be illustrated later in this writing. I came up with the name for the award "model minority" from a usage that Juba would throw around and call other people of color as he saw fit. They always say that when you criticize someone else that you're really projecting how you feel about yourself. Hence. Thus. Also is any person of color who doesn't fall into Juba's limited idea of what is possible culturally, politically, socially, automatically a house nigger? It is reductive for him to say that my critique of D/DC is only about the perputation of a black masculinist paradigm; it also skirts the bigger issue of representations of black masculinity in hip hop...(duh!)...and how they're often complicit with white supremacist representations of black masculinity. This particular point clearly doesn't interest D/DC. At all. That's why I took off. It really bothers me that people can be so completely jaded and/or stupid.
When I was in the group I felt that my general voice (I am a black person raised in a white suburb) was censored (of course a black person in hip hop can't be talking about being from anyplace but an all-black ghetto): to draw an example, we were doing a show at the Good Vibes anniversary and noticed gay supervisor Tom Ammiano...which caused me to suspect other local political figures had been invited...so I asked up front and found out that Gavin Newsom had also been invited...Gavin Newsom was a supervisor from the upscale Marina district and entrepeneur who was running for mayor by...well refer to this link for details:
http://www.indybay.org/archives...16&id=1020
...anyway I was like I wanna say something about Gavin Newsom if it turns out he shows up here to Juba and Juba told me to stop acting white. Juba has a white girlfriend. Does he talk to her like that?
I, Ralowe, have no problem with the way I exist in white supremacy. Other people do. I exist as a being filled with a lot of self-hate, desire to be loved by white people and an intense feeling of alienation from black people. Everybody knows this about and I think I make it pretty clear if you ever hang out with me. I don't think that history nor the social machines that inflict this upon me will change in my lifetime. I make music that deals with this complicated plateau of recognition and resistance in my art. I don't think that things can be easily summarized as being one or the other. My relationship with the world is way more complicated than can be represented at D/DC.
I, Reginald, am trying to construct a complicated subjectivity where notions of a fixed identity are constantly disrupted. I feel as if most the people who know me know this, and Juba's simplistic categorization of me seeks to erase my years of work as an artist, activist, and living performance piece. I was really hurt by his evaluation and insulted since he knows nothing of my politics which have been consistently over the years anti-white supremacy, anti-capitalist, and anti-patriarchal and much to the chagrin of many of you here
ANTI-THE-GAY-MAINSTREAM.
Check out my lyrical content and my music at http://www.mutilatedmannequins.com/
Also, http://www.ralowescrappymusic.com/... why not
We refer you to our music only to suggest that there are negroes out there not making work directed toward narrow liberal expectations.
Smooches
Ralowe and Reginald
strap-on.org messageboard
> misc.
> attn: sf people. regarding gay shame.
Page 1 2
Next Topic >>
Author Comment
striped
thug
Posts: 7
(7/9/03 6:41 pm)
Reply thanx
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
thanks for this thread guys. it really great that it is here, and that fucked-up awards or politics are called out.
Ralowe and Reginald
thug
Posts: 1
(7/13/03 12:35 pm)
Reply > attn: sf people. regarding gay shame.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Testing this shit. Hold up.
Ralowe and Reginald
thug
Posts: 2
(7/13/03 1:43 pm)
Reply > > attn: sf people. regarding gay shame.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From the two gay shame token negroes:
As Juba so eloquently described us, the reason for D/DC's nomination was to draw attention the fact that they play into the most white liberal guilt aspects of identity politics as opposed to actually dealing with any sincere emotions or inspiration in the perpetration of their music. I, Reginald have never seen them perform outside of an all-white context and I felt, as a negro that their work was only for the white people in the audience and not for me. Since what so much of what they seem to be about seems to be politics I wondered about the politics of exclusion. It re-centers whiteness and white supremacy to only focus on the white liberal response in your performance to your performance and not consider the black people in the audience. We as black artists do not only make work to be seen and consumed by white people. If any of you have seen a D/DC show, you can attest to this. See, it's complicated. At the bottom of this posting there will be a verbatim re-cap of the original exchange when I left D/DC and why, which wasn't simply because they refused to show up for a show that was...
Posted all over SAN FRANCISCO ON FLIERS WITH D/DC'S NAME ON IT...
The most insidious position that people of color can ever be put in is the position of only being able to speak about race. That was the reason I left the group and the reason why they got nominated for a Gay Shame award. Don't you understand that? Or are all of you too caught up in white guilt to be "Oh My God, these invioable sad black artists...they can't possibly be doing anything wrong...?" Is anyone on this board capable of any real critique of white supremacy and how identity politics plays into it or are all of you just reactionary dickwads? Juba and Tim'm are very very very smart and went to a lot of school and have done a lot of reading about race. I (Ralowe speaking) have not. Tim'm went to France and read the writings of Foucault on race. He knows what the fuck is going on, and all of you are falling for this huge guilt ruse, that as Juba explained, he's trying to exploit and get money out of. That disgusts me deeply. I guess I don't have any moral agendas to put on other folks (people can sell drugs, be contract killers, work for a bank) but I decided not to be part of it. I cannot make art in a world where I have to trade on people's perceptions of me to be accepted .....WHICH IS A BIG ISSUE, don't you think?, and is why I left the group, BECAUSE THAT WAS ALL THAT IT WAS ABOUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think it's cute how Juba feels the need to very carefully tally the number of people of color involved in Gay Shame as if that made a difference.
I, Ralowe, not Reginald, (we need to make clear) created the Model Minority Award. I felt that there needed to be a critique of the fascinating white liberal phenomenon that is Deep Dickollective, and I'm very pleased with the response. It makes me feel wonderful that all of you are pissed off, because even though we are, as you presume, such disempowered and helpless black gay commodities, as your identity politics choose to relegate us to, we are in fact not above critique and need to be made accountable for our cultural productions and the political implications that they have, you know, like conforming, complicity etc... it's not enough to dismiss the award as an art school arty punk rock faux-radical posturing because focussing on that misses the point of the critique. It should be stated that this critique is not coming from the arty white folks in the group... it's coming from the arty black folks, meaning me and Ralowe, but putting it out there, as it was, it's for everybody, clearly. I have issues with Gay Shame.
We, Reginald and Ralowe, were not part of the planning, and I, Ralowe was not there when the award was handed out because I was working on music and I didn't think that it was really necessary to go to the Casto again with this little thing we do. It should be said that we both ambivalently participate in Gay Shame out of a need to exist in a space outside of the mainstream gay community and not to be totally isolated. Ralowe leaving D/DC clearly meant that his voice in that context could not be heard. Remember the Guardian article? In the Gay Shame context it can despite its shortcomings. I felt that my voice was less likely to be censored at Gay Shame than as it was in the D/DC context, as will be illustrated later in this writing. I came up with the name for the award "model minority" from a usage that Juba would throw around and call other people of color as he saw fit. They always say that when you criticize someone else that you're really projecting how you feel about yourself. Hence. Thus. Also is any person of color who doesn't fall into Juba's limited idea of what is possible culturally, politically, socially, automatically a house nigger? It is reductive for him to say that my critique of D/DC is only about the perputation of a black masculinist paradigm; it also skirts the bigger issue of representations of black masculinity in hip hop...(duh!)...and how they're often complicit with white supremacist representations of black masculinity. This particular point clearly doesn't interest D/DC. At all. That's why I took off. It really bothers me that people can be so completely jaded and/or stupid.
When I was in the group I felt that my general voice (I am a black person raised in a white suburb) was censored (of course a black person in hip hop can't be talking about being from anyplace but an all-black ghetto): to draw an example, we were doing a show at the Good Vibes anniversary and noticed gay supervisor Tom Ammiano...which caused me to suspect other local political figures had been invited...so I asked up front and found out that Gavin Newsom had also been invited...Gavin Newsom was a supervisor from the upscale Marina district and entrepeneur who was running for mayor by...well refer to this link for details:
http://www.indybay.org/archives...16&id=1020
...anyway I was like I wanna say something about Gavin Newsom if it turns out he shows up here to Juba and Juba told me to stop acting white. Juba has a white girlfriend. Does he talk to her like that?
I, Ralowe, have no problem with the way I exist in white supremacy. Other people do. I exist as a being filled with a lot of self-hate, desire to be loved by white people and an intense feeling of alienation from black people. Everybody knows this about and I think I make it pretty clear if you ever hang out with me. I don't think that history nor the social machines that inflict this upon me will change in my lifetime. I make music that deals with this complicated plateau of recognition and resistance in my art. I don't think that things can be easily summarized as being one or the other. My relationship with the world is way more complicated than can be represented at D/DC.
I, Reginald, am trying to construct a complicated subjectivity where notions of a fixed identity are constantly disrupted. I feel as if most the people who know me know this, and Juba's simplistic categorization of me seeks to erase my years of work as an artist, activist, and living performance piece. I was really hurt by his evaluation and insulted since he knows nothing of my politics which have been consistently over the years anti-white supremacy, anti-capitalist, and anti-patriarchal and much to the chagrin of many of you here
ANTI-THE-GAY-MAINSTREAM.
Check out my lyrical content and my music at http://www.mutilatedmannequins.com/
Also, http://www.ralowescrappymusic.com/... why not
We refer you to our music only to suggest that there are negroes out there not making work directed toward narrow liberal expectations.
Smooches
Ralowe and Reginald
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This all seems pretty petty. Why not focus on the real enemies of queers and humanity? You both seem to be so self involved in your own scene that your failing to target the larger racist and homophobic institutions. Anger can be good, but it can also be misdirected and damaging. When you turn on those who you may have personal beef with in such a political and public manner, you are shooting yourselves in the foot. Deep Dick Collective should not be on the same awards ballot as Gavin Newsom. Neither should Osento for that matter. Why? Because they are not the power structure, they are struggling artists and community spaces that are as vulnerable to this fucked up system as you and me.
you are loosing support, and taking flack on all fronts.
it won't be long before this will fold. think about your parting message, be sure it is what you want to be remembered by, just a thought
it won't be long before this will fold. think about your parting message, be sure it is what you want to be remembered by, just a thought
>you are loosing support, and taking flack on all fronts.
it won't be long before this will fold. think about your parting message, be sure it is what you want to be remembered by, just a thought <
Messages such as this were typical of the COINTELPRO program, which used messages by agents, hired provacateurs, and by people in the movement (who frequently were being manipulated by agents or provacateurs) to disrupt, discredit, and in some cases, assassinate people doing work in the movement. See "The COINTELPRO Papers" or "Agents of Repression" for more information. Given the presence of organizations such as CATIC and Homeland Security, it is not at all surpising that this is occurring.
Helpful Hostess' suggestion for the day is: Don't be fooled! Instead, focus on the work you're doing, and how you can do it with the greatest amount of success and pleasure possible.
This is yet another message from Helpful Hostess, the ghost in the machine called IMC
it won't be long before this will fold. think about your parting message, be sure it is what you want to be remembered by, just a thought <
Messages such as this were typical of the COINTELPRO program, which used messages by agents, hired provacateurs, and by people in the movement (who frequently were being manipulated by agents or provacateurs) to disrupt, discredit, and in some cases, assassinate people doing work in the movement. See "The COINTELPRO Papers" or "Agents of Repression" for more information. Given the presence of organizations such as CATIC and Homeland Security, it is not at all surpising that this is occurring.
Helpful Hostess' suggestion for the day is: Don't be fooled! Instead, focus on the work you're doing, and how you can do it with the greatest amount of success and pleasure possible.
This is yet another message from Helpful Hostess, the ghost in the machine called IMC
Reginald: I found Juba's response to our earlier posting exhilerating. Much of what I feel is that I'm doing as a culture-maker, activist, performer is provocation. And therefore, I appreciate Juba's skilled use of black vernacular to call out our particular position.
Ralowe: Actually, that's funny Reginald because I thought he wanted it to be really long so that nobody would actually read it and just assume that what he was saying was right.
Reginald: Well, I read it and took notes and thing that the brother has it goin' on. Though I obviously disagree with him. There's clearly black fierceness and brilliance on display.
Ralowe: Whatever. I think that he was really good at talking a lot about what he thought the issue was instead of missing the actually issue. Par exempla, his reiteration of the "good white people / bad white people" thing is cute and I agree with it, but the way he's using it in context of resisting Gavin Newsom leaves me to suspect that his opinion is that black people shouldn't care because it's a white issue and that racism and black oppression will continue whether or not Newsom gets elected or not...
Reginald: Well if he thinks that he's right, but I would think that someone who's clearly more interested in working within the system as he has demonstrated that he is would be invested in making sure that someone with horendous policies around the homeless, among other things, would not be elected mayor of SF. But oh yeah, that's right...he lives in Oakland. Where all the black people are. So I can see why he would not be concerned.
Ralowe: Also, he calls us out as harboring internalized racism with being uneasy with the image of black masculinity...which may or not be true...but masculinity is still masculinity and is an oppressive ideology and should be obliterated.
Reginald: Well of course all black people and people of color living in a white supremacist context have to deal with internalized racism. But the racism I have to deal with is always always coupled with a genderphobia. Juba may or may not have noticed that I rigorously maintain a very androgynous appearance and this makes me invested in critiques of masculinity for entirely different reasons.
It's ironic that Juba mentioned Tongues Untied, the seminal and extremely important work on video by a visionary artist and activist, Marlon Riggs. He brought this up as if to suggest that we had not seen it.
Ralowe: When I was in Ventura I jerked off to it...or was that Looking for Langston...whatever...
Reginald: Well I saw it in 1991 and it changed my life. Being from Alabama I had not had the privilege of seeing this display of black gay brilliance before and it was inspiring. Yet when I was walking here to read you this response before I had knew of this mention of this work I was thinking about bell hooks' response to this video in a discussion with Isaac Julien. She seemed to suggest that it was easier for black people, particularly black men, to deal with harder representations of black masculinity as was shown in Tongues Untied (everyone was maintaining this extremely defensive front) as opposed to Looking for Langston, a film of the same period by british film director Isaac Julien, and that in an audience of predominately non-white people that people seemed especially disturbed by how these very vulnerable black men were expressing desire for one another. My critiques of the representations of black masculinity are coming from a feminist longing to address masculinity in general and have it remade. And, it's not simply enough "to be a out black queer emcee" as a critique of patriarchy.
Ralowe: That seems obvious. I mean is the castro critiquing patriarchy? S.M.A.A.C.? The Pendulum? Creating a culture of resistance is way more involved than anyone in the group seems to be willing to do. Or maybe they're not willing. But why state that "queer boys/girls doing hip hop is a revolutionary act?" Maybe that was originally only meant to be in the hip hop context. But is that obvious to everyone who hears D/DC say that?
Reginald: Because I don't spend much time in the gay community my interest in black masculinity is without interest in sexual orientation. I'm not as much interested in what Juba describes as a "fey" "effeminate" version of black bodies but more the fact that the dominance of more masculine representations seeks to erase all presence of the effeminate. It's obvious that masculine bodies in a gay context are more valued, deemed more sexually desirable, if you are a banjee boy or bringing any kind of thug drama you are way more likely to get laid by black or white men than if you are even remotely a queen. This is a re-inscription of the value of male supremacy. Is this a sloppy evaluation. You tell me?
Ralowe: It seems that Juba seems insistent that positing oneself as an "out black queer emcee" somehow aptly undoes male supremacy but that always seemed kind of lazy to me.
Reginald: "Queer boys doing hip hop" is not a revolutionary act. When Marlon Riggs said "Black men loving Black men is a revolutionary act" more than ten years ago (and your biting of this misses some critiques brought by feminists, or one feminist in particular, again bell hooks, that "Black men dealing with their childhood is the revolutionary act") though I except that this may not speak to you, I thought it was deep.
Ralowe: I've been doing a lot of thinking about my childhood lately. I hope this doesn't get off topic or anything, but I think that if anything D/DC should be making art that is personal and deals with their experiences and to completely dislodge themselves from rhetoric because the pre-occupation with creating a commodity is what really is the downfall of the whole project. But that's just me.
Reginald: Well, it's interesting that Juba mentioned the one conversation we had at the Stud over a year ago. I don't remember saying that anyone is pathetic. I remember making specific comments about not liking the music. It was some mix of house and techno. I don't really know, because I hate this music. And I said to him, as much and his response was "I like this music". And this was interesting to me in reference to his comment and his posting that of course we (meaning me and ralowe) feel isolated in a white supremacist context and from the gay mainstream. He's right to say that isolation is a fact for people of color under white supremacy but my alienation from the gay mainstream and its horrible music would include him and all the gay clubs, The End Up, The Stud and the LGBT liberation projects where he performs. My response to his assertion that "why don't I just leave" is that I had never seen my friend whom I love and care for deeply Ralowe perform and though I despised the context I didn't want to miss an opportunity to support him and see his work. The gay mainstream to me includes all those horrible gay clubs and bars, black mixed and all-white, that perpetuate this horror of music, culture and fashion as well as the LGBT center and all the attempts to utilize this pathetic acronym of inclusion. I guess it's true I'm not down with the liberation of the LGBT community. So sue me.
Ralowe: My guess is that Juba is trying to say that instead of presentation the public with visible outrage at the state of affairs is beside the point and that real community building is elsewhere...but as far as I've observed being at S.M.A.A.C. and all over Oakland that there is no elsewhere. Every aspect of life right down to the civic planning even if you live in the heart of Oakland is controlled by white supremacy. He keeps citing this exclusion of Oakland from Gay Shame...Gay Shame is based in San Francisco...and I don't think that just trying to live outside of San Francisco is enough. It's an illusion. And being that I live here I participate in actions here, because if the sight of resistance is unavailable then I'm terrified that it would never happen. We all can't work for non-profits and shit.
Reginald: I would argue, though I'm not sure, that I am way broker and financially destitute than Juba but I don't have child support to pay so it is unrealistic for me to come up with BART fare to make it to Oakland, what has become the symbol of whether you're down with the niggas.
Ralowe: Down with the niggas: that reminds me of the white female life partner scenario...no amount of miscegenation would dissolve her privelege and how that ties to you is puzzling in a social context considering your incisive critiques of white supremacy... like my suggesting the group make a political statement at a rather apolitical gig... it's been the group shared memory I'm sure that whenever I do things without checking with everyone else it has always been an issue... maybe it's hard for you to imagine, I'm sure for a lot of people it might be, but I was actually wanting to see if the group was interested in making a statement about that at the Good Vibes show, and trying to use the analogy of the white executive figures is condescending and rather typical of the way in which you saw me and what I stood for over the course of when I was in the group which is why I left...
I've always felt very strongly about my politics and it was just one of those things that our group could never reach consensus on...so oh well...
Reginald: It should be said that I think D/DC's existence is important to an agit-prop display of identity politics but I guess what dismays me is that they seem to only operate on that level. And for all the brilliance of that group I have a huge amount of respect for Juba and Tim'm's intellectual rigor and I guess it just saddens me that on a critical level and discursively I don't see their work advancing much beyond the conversations that Isaac Julien, Marlon Riggs and Essexx Hemphill were having more than ten years ago and entering into public discourse. The fact that the cultural fascination with hip hop allows them to continue much of this discourse in the context of rap I don't find particularly meaningful. But who am I to say they should be doing with their work and I want to only critique it from a political standpoint but also from a formal and aesthetic standpoint being that I make rock music and not hip hop maybe they would find my critiques of no interest.
Ralowe:
1. I have not always received fliers for every show and the group never formally sat down and decided that Juba's method of booking shows would be the group's fuckin' method...
2. LYRIC and SMAAC are both fucked and I would encourage all to avoid them.
3. D/DC does not permutate anything of our individual talents into one thing... we're given topics and then told to go write in a vacuum... that's not just how I think a group of people should work on music...maybe I have way too much time on my hands, but "given the impress" of this stuff we're doing isn't it important?
Reginald: It should be said that the loving relationship that Ralowe and I share is not without conflict. We disagree often and I agree with Juba that your antics are often a desperate need for attention.
Ralowe: So.
Reginald: I say that to say that I often want to give you that attention and think you deserve it. Though I often don't think your analysis is sound, your voice is always strong and I stand behind it even as I disagree with it often. I want to also say that the picture Juba paints is one of quote "I'm this upstanding queer black man working with the community for the community and what are those other niggers doing (Reginald and Ralowe) with a group that largely wants to provoke and be a voice of dissent (Gay Shame)...I have never believe in the myth of 'community' and largely want to destroy everything including notions of family and nation, but then again I don't have child support to pay, but maybe that's because I know about contraception and despise constructions of a family and find them extremely oppressive.
One of the things I wanna question is the whole idea of the black man fighting the good fight trying to do right by family nation and state. It's not that there shouldn't be black men out there doing that, but why is that the only voice heard? These community voices often seek to silence voices of dissent who don't share their approach and belief that working within the system is meaningful. I agree with Juba that we are all niggas often in the house and outside of it, but I want to break this binary opposition of house nigga and field nigga and suggest a burning of the plantation. I know it sounds mythic and heroic but that gets me through much more than would working within some gay social services slash non profit organization and the fact that you choose to work within these structures logically makes you a target for my critique, my dissent, and my rage.
Also, you're quite right in suggesting that I was "obnoxious". I want to continue though. As I say all this I want to acknowledge the pleasure I've gotten from this dialogue and I do see it as a dialogue that is worth having. I have lots of respect...
Ralowe: We never wanted to have this dialogue however in D/DC...never...NEVER... but I guess everyone's too busy and shit...damn...
Reginald: ...for Juba's intellectual prowess and sense of performativity in text. I wish I felt that same brilliance and sense of play in his performance. I really think this brother's got something going on with the analysis though it's often binary and retrograde. Maybe they should just work on being the next Ludacris or 50Cent because they're relationship to masculinity as well the form that their music takes (very straightforward commercial sounding hip hop) could possibly mean that Juba really would be able to pay rent and child support. One of the things that I find captivating about your work Ralowe is the extent to which you're taking formal risk that you seem to be committed to content not only existing in the text but in the form. The form itself is challenging.
Ralowe: Aw.
Reginald: And asks quesions of the listener and requires a more active participation from the audience. It's deep heady shit. And when you were part of Deep Dickollective it was your performance that most interested me. It seemed to involve the most artistic risk. I think the best thing that could've happened to you was to leave the group since you've not been a part of this very formally conservative hip hop collective I think your work has blossomed. I would encourage anyone interested in hip hop to go to his website and check it out.
Ralowe: I didn't write any of that. I swear.
Reginald: That's right. I think I made my above statement to suggest that the identity politics agit-prop that seemed seminal to the reception of D/DC's work is not all that is out there. I would also suggest that in the mere form there is something in 2003 conservative about D/DC's approach. Now I know that Juba is going to hate on me for using the word conservative again, of course not positioning myself as liberal or conservative but "radical" but I personally don't think that trying to occupy a space that is radical is in and of itself objectionable. Certainly it is often a failing proposition but seeing as I can't operate within the milieus in which Juba and D/DC seem to navigate well what are my options?
Ralowe: Suicide.
Ralowe: Actually, that's funny Reginald because I thought he wanted it to be really long so that nobody would actually read it and just assume that what he was saying was right.
Reginald: Well, I read it and took notes and thing that the brother has it goin' on. Though I obviously disagree with him. There's clearly black fierceness and brilliance on display.
Ralowe: Whatever. I think that he was really good at talking a lot about what he thought the issue was instead of missing the actually issue. Par exempla, his reiteration of the "good white people / bad white people" thing is cute and I agree with it, but the way he's using it in context of resisting Gavin Newsom leaves me to suspect that his opinion is that black people shouldn't care because it's a white issue and that racism and black oppression will continue whether or not Newsom gets elected or not...
Reginald: Well if he thinks that he's right, but I would think that someone who's clearly more interested in working within the system as he has demonstrated that he is would be invested in making sure that someone with horendous policies around the homeless, among other things, would not be elected mayor of SF. But oh yeah, that's right...he lives in Oakland. Where all the black people are. So I can see why he would not be concerned.
Ralowe: Also, he calls us out as harboring internalized racism with being uneasy with the image of black masculinity...which may or not be true...but masculinity is still masculinity and is an oppressive ideology and should be obliterated.
Reginald: Well of course all black people and people of color living in a white supremacist context have to deal with internalized racism. But the racism I have to deal with is always always coupled with a genderphobia. Juba may or may not have noticed that I rigorously maintain a very androgynous appearance and this makes me invested in critiques of masculinity for entirely different reasons.
It's ironic that Juba mentioned Tongues Untied, the seminal and extremely important work on video by a visionary artist and activist, Marlon Riggs. He brought this up as if to suggest that we had not seen it.
Ralowe: When I was in Ventura I jerked off to it...or was that Looking for Langston...whatever...
Reginald: Well I saw it in 1991 and it changed my life. Being from Alabama I had not had the privilege of seeing this display of black gay brilliance before and it was inspiring. Yet when I was walking here to read you this response before I had knew of this mention of this work I was thinking about bell hooks' response to this video in a discussion with Isaac Julien. She seemed to suggest that it was easier for black people, particularly black men, to deal with harder representations of black masculinity as was shown in Tongues Untied (everyone was maintaining this extremely defensive front) as opposed to Looking for Langston, a film of the same period by british film director Isaac Julien, and that in an audience of predominately non-white people that people seemed especially disturbed by how these very vulnerable black men were expressing desire for one another. My critiques of the representations of black masculinity are coming from a feminist longing to address masculinity in general and have it remade. And, it's not simply enough "to be a out black queer emcee" as a critique of patriarchy.
Ralowe: That seems obvious. I mean is the castro critiquing patriarchy? S.M.A.A.C.? The Pendulum? Creating a culture of resistance is way more involved than anyone in the group seems to be willing to do. Or maybe they're not willing. But why state that "queer boys/girls doing hip hop is a revolutionary act?" Maybe that was originally only meant to be in the hip hop context. But is that obvious to everyone who hears D/DC say that?
Reginald: Because I don't spend much time in the gay community my interest in black masculinity is without interest in sexual orientation. I'm not as much interested in what Juba describes as a "fey" "effeminate" version of black bodies but more the fact that the dominance of more masculine representations seeks to erase all presence of the effeminate. It's obvious that masculine bodies in a gay context are more valued, deemed more sexually desirable, if you are a banjee boy or bringing any kind of thug drama you are way more likely to get laid by black or white men than if you are even remotely a queen. This is a re-inscription of the value of male supremacy. Is this a sloppy evaluation. You tell me?
Ralowe: It seems that Juba seems insistent that positing oneself as an "out black queer emcee" somehow aptly undoes male supremacy but that always seemed kind of lazy to me.
Reginald: "Queer boys doing hip hop" is not a revolutionary act. When Marlon Riggs said "Black men loving Black men is a revolutionary act" more than ten years ago (and your biting of this misses some critiques brought by feminists, or one feminist in particular, again bell hooks, that "Black men dealing with their childhood is the revolutionary act") though I except that this may not speak to you, I thought it was deep.
Ralowe: I've been doing a lot of thinking about my childhood lately. I hope this doesn't get off topic or anything, but I think that if anything D/DC should be making art that is personal and deals with their experiences and to completely dislodge themselves from rhetoric because the pre-occupation with creating a commodity is what really is the downfall of the whole project. But that's just me.
Reginald: Well, it's interesting that Juba mentioned the one conversation we had at the Stud over a year ago. I don't remember saying that anyone is pathetic. I remember making specific comments about not liking the music. It was some mix of house and techno. I don't really know, because I hate this music. And I said to him, as much and his response was "I like this music". And this was interesting to me in reference to his comment and his posting that of course we (meaning me and ralowe) feel isolated in a white supremacist context and from the gay mainstream. He's right to say that isolation is a fact for people of color under white supremacy but my alienation from the gay mainstream and its horrible music would include him and all the gay clubs, The End Up, The Stud and the LGBT liberation projects where he performs. My response to his assertion that "why don't I just leave" is that I had never seen my friend whom I love and care for deeply Ralowe perform and though I despised the context I didn't want to miss an opportunity to support him and see his work. The gay mainstream to me includes all those horrible gay clubs and bars, black mixed and all-white, that perpetuate this horror of music, culture and fashion as well as the LGBT center and all the attempts to utilize this pathetic acronym of inclusion. I guess it's true I'm not down with the liberation of the LGBT community. So sue me.
Ralowe: My guess is that Juba is trying to say that instead of presentation the public with visible outrage at the state of affairs is beside the point and that real community building is elsewhere...but as far as I've observed being at S.M.A.A.C. and all over Oakland that there is no elsewhere. Every aspect of life right down to the civic planning even if you live in the heart of Oakland is controlled by white supremacy. He keeps citing this exclusion of Oakland from Gay Shame...Gay Shame is based in San Francisco...and I don't think that just trying to live outside of San Francisco is enough. It's an illusion. And being that I live here I participate in actions here, because if the sight of resistance is unavailable then I'm terrified that it would never happen. We all can't work for non-profits and shit.
Reginald: I would argue, though I'm not sure, that I am way broker and financially destitute than Juba but I don't have child support to pay so it is unrealistic for me to come up with BART fare to make it to Oakland, what has become the symbol of whether you're down with the niggas.
Ralowe: Down with the niggas: that reminds me of the white female life partner scenario...no amount of miscegenation would dissolve her privelege and how that ties to you is puzzling in a social context considering your incisive critiques of white supremacy... like my suggesting the group make a political statement at a rather apolitical gig... it's been the group shared memory I'm sure that whenever I do things without checking with everyone else it has always been an issue... maybe it's hard for you to imagine, I'm sure for a lot of people it might be, but I was actually wanting to see if the group was interested in making a statement about that at the Good Vibes show, and trying to use the analogy of the white executive figures is condescending and rather typical of the way in which you saw me and what I stood for over the course of when I was in the group which is why I left...
I've always felt very strongly about my politics and it was just one of those things that our group could never reach consensus on...so oh well...
Reginald: It should be said that I think D/DC's existence is important to an agit-prop display of identity politics but I guess what dismays me is that they seem to only operate on that level. And for all the brilliance of that group I have a huge amount of respect for Juba and Tim'm's intellectual rigor and I guess it just saddens me that on a critical level and discursively I don't see their work advancing much beyond the conversations that Isaac Julien, Marlon Riggs and Essexx Hemphill were having more than ten years ago and entering into public discourse. The fact that the cultural fascination with hip hop allows them to continue much of this discourse in the context of rap I don't find particularly meaningful. But who am I to say they should be doing with their work and I want to only critique it from a political standpoint but also from a formal and aesthetic standpoint being that I make rock music and not hip hop maybe they would find my critiques of no interest.
Ralowe:
1. I have not always received fliers for every show and the group never formally sat down and decided that Juba's method of booking shows would be the group's fuckin' method...
2. LYRIC and SMAAC are both fucked and I would encourage all to avoid them.
3. D/DC does not permutate anything of our individual talents into one thing... we're given topics and then told to go write in a vacuum... that's not just how I think a group of people should work on music...maybe I have way too much time on my hands, but "given the impress" of this stuff we're doing isn't it important?
Reginald: It should be said that the loving relationship that Ralowe and I share is not without conflict. We disagree often and I agree with Juba that your antics are often a desperate need for attention.
Ralowe: So.
Reginald: I say that to say that I often want to give you that attention and think you deserve it. Though I often don't think your analysis is sound, your voice is always strong and I stand behind it even as I disagree with it often. I want to also say that the picture Juba paints is one of quote "I'm this upstanding queer black man working with the community for the community and what are those other niggers doing (Reginald and Ralowe) with a group that largely wants to provoke and be a voice of dissent (Gay Shame)...I have never believe in the myth of 'community' and largely want to destroy everything including notions of family and nation, but then again I don't have child support to pay, but maybe that's because I know about contraception and despise constructions of a family and find them extremely oppressive.
One of the things I wanna question is the whole idea of the black man fighting the good fight trying to do right by family nation and state. It's not that there shouldn't be black men out there doing that, but why is that the only voice heard? These community voices often seek to silence voices of dissent who don't share their approach and belief that working within the system is meaningful. I agree with Juba that we are all niggas often in the house and outside of it, but I want to break this binary opposition of house nigga and field nigga and suggest a burning of the plantation. I know it sounds mythic and heroic but that gets me through much more than would working within some gay social services slash non profit organization and the fact that you choose to work within these structures logically makes you a target for my critique, my dissent, and my rage.
Also, you're quite right in suggesting that I was "obnoxious". I want to continue though. As I say all this I want to acknowledge the pleasure I've gotten from this dialogue and I do see it as a dialogue that is worth having. I have lots of respect...
Ralowe: We never wanted to have this dialogue however in D/DC...never...NEVER... but I guess everyone's too busy and shit...damn...
Reginald: ...for Juba's intellectual prowess and sense of performativity in text. I wish I felt that same brilliance and sense of play in his performance. I really think this brother's got something going on with the analysis though it's often binary and retrograde. Maybe they should just work on being the next Ludacris or 50Cent because they're relationship to masculinity as well the form that their music takes (very straightforward commercial sounding hip hop) could possibly mean that Juba really would be able to pay rent and child support. One of the things that I find captivating about your work Ralowe is the extent to which you're taking formal risk that you seem to be committed to content not only existing in the text but in the form. The form itself is challenging.
Ralowe: Aw.
Reginald: And asks quesions of the listener and requires a more active participation from the audience. It's deep heady shit. And when you were part of Deep Dickollective it was your performance that most interested me. It seemed to involve the most artistic risk. I think the best thing that could've happened to you was to leave the group since you've not been a part of this very formally conservative hip hop collective I think your work has blossomed. I would encourage anyone interested in hip hop to go to his website and check it out.
Ralowe: I didn't write any of that. I swear.
Reginald: That's right. I think I made my above statement to suggest that the identity politics agit-prop that seemed seminal to the reception of D/DC's work is not all that is out there. I would also suggest that in the mere form there is something in 2003 conservative about D/DC's approach. Now I know that Juba is going to hate on me for using the word conservative again, of course not positioning myself as liberal or conservative but "radical" but I personally don't think that trying to occupy a space that is radical is in and of itself objectionable. Certainly it is often a failing proposition but seeing as I can't operate within the milieus in which Juba and D/DC seem to navigate well what are my options?
Ralowe: Suicide.
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