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Anti-WarZionism Is The Root Problem
Zionism! An ideology that is antithetical to Judaism, one fomented by unabashed atheists, heretics and even some ostensibly “religious” collaborators who have sold their souls to the irreligious Zionists for money and power. ![]() unitedsemites.jpg Speech by Rabbi Yisroel P. Feldman of Neturei Karta Int.at the rally hosted by the New England Committee to Defend Palestine, to protest the "Boston Celebrates Israel Festival" in Boston, Mass. on Sunday, June 15, 2003
With God’s help may the words that we speak here today sanctify God’s name and may it bring peace and brotherhood amongst His creations. A – salaam aleikum We have come to Boston today to protest the celebration of the founding of the blasphemous and heretical Zionist state taking place here. We represent Torah true Jews who remain loyal to authentic Judaism, who know that the root cause of the conflict and instability plaguing the Middle East, and hence the entire world, is the heresy against G d called Zionism, and the heinous crimes committed in the name of its illegitimate “State of Israel”. Zionism! An ideology that is antithetical to Judaism, one fomented by unabashed atheists, heretics and even some ostensibly “religious” collaborators who have sold their souls to the irreligious Zionists for money and power. The founding of the Zionist state is in direct contradiction to the teachings of the Torah, which forbids the establishment of a Jewish state and commands Jews to remain in exile until they are released therefrom by G-d himself, without any human intervention, at which time all nations of the world will live together in peace, and serve their Creator in unity. Two thousand years ago, at the time of the Temple’s destruction, the Jewish people were forbidden by the Creator (Tractate Ketuboth 111a) To go up en masse to the Holy Land To rebel against the nations To in any way attempt to end the exile Jews faithful to the Torah are enjoined by the Torah to conduct themselves as loyal, upright and grateful citizens in their host countries throughout the world. The Torah commands us to emulate G-d and to be compassionate. We are forbidden to unlawfully expropriate land, to subjugate or to oppress another people. Therefore we protest and mourn the murder, deportation, subjugation, and oppression of the Palestinian people by the Zionist hooligans who invaded their homeland, in violation of the Torah, and have caused so much needless suffering. The list of their crimes is endless. The cause of the past, current and, G-d forbid, future suffering is the aforementioned rebellion against G-d. The tragic and seemingly intractable conflict in the Middle East is directly attributable to the wicked actions of the Zionist regime against the indigenous population of Palestine, against whom the Zionists have been waging war for more than a century. Thus, the only solution to bring about peace and harmony is not more war and strife, but rather regime change in historic Palestine! The Torah’s solution to this dilemma would be for the world community to actively work towards the dismantling of the illicit Zionist regime and the restoration of full Palestinian sovereignty over the whole of Palestine. We firmly believe that such a solution would not result in Jews being slaughtered indiscriminately by the Palestinians. In fact, the very existence of the Zionist state endangers Jewish lives because it constitutes an open rebellion against G-d. Only when the Palestinian people return to their homeland as a sovereign nation and only when the scourge of the racist Zionist occupation has been removed from the sacred soil of Palestine will Jews and Arabs once again live in peace and harmony, as they have done for so many centuries, prior to the inception of Zionism some 100 years ago. Only when the Palestinian refugees are allowed to return to their native soil will there be peace in the Holy Land! It is a hollow mockery and a desecration of everything sacred to Judaism that the Zionist heretics base their specious claims to the Holy Land on the Bible, justifying their mass invasion, colonization, expropriation and displacement of the native inhabitants of Palestine, who, according to the Torah, are entitled to sovereignty over the whole of their native homeland. By establishing the “state of Israel”, the Zionists have openly rebelled against the will of G-d’s and the laws of the Torah and thereby have caused immense pain and immeasurable suffering to both Jews and non-Jews. At occasions like this where people celebrate the establishment of the state of “Israel”, Torah true Jews lament the invidious attempts by the Zionists to transform Judaism from a religion into a secular, hypernationalistic and fundamentally racist creed and their sinister efforts to uproot the Torah’s teachings from the Jewish people. We mourn the pernicious effects Zionism has had on the Jewish people and the Holy Land, including the ongoing desecration of the Sabbath, the introduction of immodest dress, and immoral media into Jewish society, and a litany of violations against many of the laws of our faith, not the least of which is the commandment to be compassionate toward our fellow man. The United Nations acquiesced to the establishment of the Zionist state in the aftermath of World War II with good intentions of providing assistance and shelter to persecuted Jews. Yet Zionism and Israel have been a curse and source of suffering for the Jewish people ever since! Where else have so many Jews died since World War II if not in the Zionist state? All because of the craven ambition of the Zionists for power in their brazen defiance of the teachings and values of Judaism! Anyone with even the slightest knowledge of history and current events knows that the Zionist state has been one of the greatest tragedies for the Jewish people, creating conflict with Muslims and Arabs, with whom Jews have lived in peace and harmony for many centuries throughout the world from Morocco to Iraq, from Casablanca to Baghdad! Judaism is not Zionism! Judaism is the faith of the Jewish people in G-d and His Torah. Zionism is the racist anti-Jewish ideology of a band of gangsters who managed to deceive so many Jews into thinking that only they can protect Jews from external threats to their existence. These criminals are known to have actively encouraged anti-Jewish feeling throughout the world in order to compel Jews to immigrate to the Zionist state as a safe haven. Need we remind ourselves of what the Zionists did to fool Jews in Yemen, Iraq and Egypt into moving to their state by planting bombs in synagogues, assassinating innocent Jews and beguiling G-d-fearing Jews with their false proclamations that the Messianic era had arrived and that the promised ingathering of the exiles had begun? Anti-Jewish prejudice is the lifeblood of Zionism! Without it, Zionism could not survive! Zionism seeks to label anyone opposing its policies as “anti-Semitic,” which is utterly false, both logically and factually! We implore the Jewish people to return to G-d and His Torah, to totally disavow the blatant heresy of Zionism and its so-called “State of Israel”. Repent and return! G-d and his Torah are waiting for you. Only in this manner will G-d stop punishing us. Only with the Jewish people's collective rejection of Zionism will the tragic reports of carnage and terror in the Holy Land cease. We beseech the Muslim community not to make the tragic mistake of equating Judaism with Zionism. You must know that they are in fact two extreme opposites. Do not accuse the Jewish people of being Zionists. Do not accuse the Jewish people of being your enemies. The fact is that the Jewish people commiserate with your suffering. The Jewish people truly feel your pain. We are totally embarrassed, horrified, and pained by the actions of our wayward brothers. Let us recall our past friendship and let us work to restore it. We plead with the honorable leaders of the great powers to carefully consider the underlying reasons for the anger and conflict in the Holy Land! It is of the utmost urgency that leaders realize and acknowledge that the true source of this is the injustice committed the creation of a Zionists State! We who are loyal to our Torah and the teachings of our authentic rabbis throughout history pray and yearn for the speedy and peaceful dismantling of this Zionist State of “Israel”. We anxiously await the day of messianic redemption when the entire world will serve G-d in brotherhood and harmony. As the prophet Isaiah says (11:9): “For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the L-rd, as waters cover the sea.” And as the Psalmist declares that one day all nations will unite in the service of G-d (Psalms 102:23): “…when the people are gathered together, and the kingdoms, to serve the L-rd.” And finally, as Jews each year on Rosh HaShannah express their desire for mankind to recognize the Creator and to worship Him in brotherhood and unity “…and they will be joined in one united group to do Your will wholeheartedly.” Amen. http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/anthem.cfm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Copyright 2003, Neturei Karta International.
Add Your Comments
Comments (Hide Comments)I was thinking Zionism has lost its true meaning
Thursday Jun 26th, 2003 5:39 AM
Well People love to put "ism" on thing they want to demonize.
Re: Zionism is the Root Problem
( debsian [at] pacbell.net )
Friday Jun 27th, 2003 9:19 AM
Naturei Karta, are not left anti-Zionists like say, Norman Finkelstein,
who wrote, "The Holocaust Industry, " http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/ and Lenni Brenner http://www.marxists.de/middleast/brenner/ who has done great work unearthing scathing documentary evidence http://www.counterpunch.org/brenner1223.html of the collaboration of far right Zionists like Begin and Shamir, then of the Sern Gang/Irgun (the predecessors of Sharon's Likud) but, have many, many times appeared at conferences organized by neo-fascists of The Spotlight now The American Free Press, and the Holocaust Denialist/Revisionists of the Institute for Historical Review of Willis Carto. (IHR has conferences where such as neo-Nazi historian David Irving speak.Carto is a follower of the fascist intellectual, Francis Parker Yockey, http://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/2001/08/GOLDNER/15521 "Dreamer of the Day. Francis Parker Yockey and the Postwar Fascist International." http://www.google.com/search?=Neturei+Karta+American+Free+Press http://stegall.org/neal/new_republic_-_karta_befor.html > ...The group has even called the Holocaust God's punishment... AMERICAN REVOLUTIONARY ... ... American Free Press. Populist/Nationalist site operated by veteran rightwing figure Willis Carto. ... Feminism without the state. Free-Market.Net. ... Neturei Karta. ... http://www.attackthesystem.com/links.html The Dhimmi Guy ... here in America who are followers of the Neturei Karta (small but ... junk can be found on the fascist website The Institute of Historical Review renowned for ... http://www.dhimmiguy.blogspot.com LEWIS BRANDON: A Note From The Editor ... Orthodox leaders such as Rabbi Moshe Hirsch of the Neturei Karta sect maintain that ... LEWIS BRANDON Director: Institute for Historical Review Editor: The ... http://www.vho.org/GB/Journals/JHR/2/1/Brandon4-6.html Antisemitism Worldwide 2000/1 - United States ... Neturei Karta members also showed up at the MFM. ... Holocaust denial groups such as the Institute for Historical Review and the Committee for Open Debate on ... http://www.tau.ac.il/Anti-Semitism/asw2000-1/usa.htm [PDF]Harbingers of Change in the Antisemitic Discourse in the Arab ... File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML ... He sets out in detail historical research findings ... a request to the Islamic Research Institute from the ... of the world Jewish group Neturei Karta.(31) *Yigal ... http://www.memri.de/uebersetzungen_analysen/themen/antisemitismus/ as_harbingers_07_05_03.pdf Michael Pugliese On Fri, 27 Jun 2003 10:28:04 -0500, Debi Clark <debiclark [at] satx.rr.com> wrote: > Speech by Rabbi Yisroel P. Feldman of Neturei Karta Int.at the rally > hosted by the New England Committee to Defend Palestine, to protest the > "Boston Celebrates Israel Festival" in Boston, Mass. on Sunday, June 15, > 2003 > > http://www.indybay.org/print.php?id=1622438 > > > With God's help may the words that we speak here today sanctify God's > name and may it bring peace and brotherhood amongst His creations. A - > salaam aleikum. We have come to Boston today to protest the celebration > of the founding of the blasphemous and heretical Zionist state taking > place here. (continued on site) > > -- Michael Pugliese ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/nJ9qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: TruePatriotsUnite-unsubscribe [at] yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ uhh?
Friday Jun 27th, 2003 11:04 AM
"Uhh, yeah, the nerve of jews, establishing their self-determination in the same way that about 75% of earth did. THe ottoman empire controlled that region for hundreds of years, then britain did, then jordan was formed on 80% of that territory, israel was formed on about half of the remaining 20%. Some nerve! "
Populations have moved a lot throughout history but I dont think most people would sya they support the genocide of N Afghanistan by the Mongolians, or the genocide by the Spanish in the new world. As for the Ottoman Empire... it was ruled by Turks (who had moved from NW China over the previous several hundred years) but only parts of what is now Turkey were really colonized in terms of a new population moving in. "The territory of Palestine under Ottoman rule was composed of two areas. The Independent Sanjak (district) of Jerusalem was subject to the High Porte in Constantinople. Rhe Sanjak extended from Jaffa to the River Jordan in the East and from the Jordan south to the borders of Egypt. The other area was part of the Willayat (province) of Beirut. This part was composed of the Sanjak of Balka (Nablus) from Jaffa to Jenin, and the Sanjak of Acre, which extended from Jenin to Naqura." The provinces under the Ottomans corresponded rougly to the ethnic groups that lived in the area. [Note that Iraq was three provinces (Kurd is the north, Sunni Arab in the middle around Baghdad and Shiite Arabs in the south) and it was partly the way the Brits appointed a dictator/king over these three area that has caused many of Iraqs current/future problems] To assume Israel should have 20% or even 5% of the Ottoman empire would make as much sense as asking why the Kurds couldnt get 1/2 of Greece (its was small percentage of the Ottoman empire) or why the English shouldnt be given control of Albania. There were people living in what is now Israel who were displaced by the establishment of Israel (and the refusal of new new state to accept back the refugees). The West Bank and Gaza are almost completely Palestinian and to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians from that area would be a crime against humanity. Sure, states are arbitrary and I wouldn't be opposed to Israel even rulling the West Bank and Gaza if it gave all the people living in those areas equal rights (to vote etc..) with the rest of those in Israel. But Israel accepts many Russians as new citizens (and even encourages them to live in settlements in the West Bank) while refusing the native population the right to return or those living in the Gaza and West Bank (who are not settlers) to vote!! Basically, if you are Jewish and from Russian you can get full Israeli citizenship (including voting rights), move to Israel and live in an armed camp in the West Bank. But if you are a Palestinian whose parents, grandparents and great grandparentfs lived in Israel proper, you must live in a refugee camp, cant vote and cant even drive on many of the new roads being build in the West Bank. hello
Friday Jun 27th, 2003 10:43 PM
American Free Press at http://www.americanfreepress.net is one of the ONLY newspapers in the whole USA who will directly confront the racism of apartheid Israel and Zionists.
So, they have some connection with the Institute for Historical Review which publishes some books about the Holocaust, splitting hairs about some of the exagerrations about it that the Zionists have put forth for public consumption to use as a political tool and a license to kill Palestinians and anyone who doesn't agree with them. AS IF Zionists aren' t SUPREME revisionists of history themselves! Ha ha ha! "A land without a people for a people without a land" Ha ha ha ha The way the Zionists in this country and elsewhere carry on, you'd think the Jews were the only ones who have ever been persecuted, and that they have suffered the most and that their suffering is more important than everyone else's, of course most especially more important than the Palestinians who the Zionists try to pretend never existed, don't exist, OOPS until there's a suicide bomber! Road Map????
Saturday Jun 28th, 2003 12:33 AM
The Road Map everyone is working on right now calls for a two State Solution...
There are some 5,000,000 Jewish People in the area involved. Borders have always changed look at the U.S.S.R. (very recent hisorty). Many Arab States have said they would recongnize Israel if the Palestinian People got their State in West Bank and Gaza. Possible Solution to the Problem: For there to be Peace and for there to be a reason for the Palestinian People to stop their fight for Freedom: We need a Palestinian State with Reasonable Border NOW... Send in a Joint, U.S., U.N. Peace keeping Force to the West Bank and Gaza for the sole purpose of trying to avoid conflicts between the Palestinian and the settlers.. Then have the Biased (biased because they will always be on the side of the settlers) Israeli Military retreat to the pre 1967 Israeli Borders, They can then concentrate their effort on guarding this Border.. (MAHMOUD ABBAS HAS SAID MORE THEN ONCE THAT HE WANTS U.S. OBSERVERS THERE, THAT IS THE ONLY WAY, THAT THE TRUTH OF WHAT IS REALLY OCCURRING WILL BE BELIEVED BY THE U.S. GOVERNMENT.) Example of a possible solution: SET THE BORDERS BACK TO 1967... In return the Refugees have no Right of Return inside the 1967 Israeli Borders.. One complaint that Israel has is that the Right of Return will result in two Palestinian States, (The Right of return is almost impossible any way because the land and homes they lost are now built up with Jewish homes businesses etc…) The Refugees can be helped to settle somewhere in the new Palestinian State.. The Settlements are now part of Palestine... If the some 300,000 Israeli Settlers living in Palestine do not like living there, they can move to Israel... If the 1,000,000 or so Palestinians who now live in Israel do not like living in Israel, they can move to Palestine... If 1,000,000 or so Palestinians can live in Israel, then some 300,000 Israeli Settlers can live in Palestine if they choose to stay.. If you take Israel, West Bank and Gaza, West Bank and Gaza is only 22% of the total area in Question, This small amount is not too much to ask for millions of Palestinians who must have their freedom to have a peaceful life. If this solution was implemented there is a good chance the so called terrorist (seen as freedom fighters by the oppressed Palestinian People) would stop their fight, if not they would be very foolish because then Israel would have a just cause to fight back and the U.S. would have a just cause to help Israel fight back. Otherwise we will continue to have: Israel: We have to confiscate Palestinian land and demolish Palestinian homes because there are suicide bombers??? Palestine: We have to defend ourselves because Israel is slowly confiscating all our land and demolishing our homes. We have no military to defend ourselves and our land. If we do nothing, we will soon have nothing at all??? The era of colonization is past,. We can not expect to oppress millions of Palestinian People and still have peace. West Bank and Gaza are only 22% of what is TODAY, Israel, West Bank and Gaza. PLEASE LOOK AT THE MAP IN THE FOLLOWING WEB PAGE: The Orange areas are Israeli settlements in the already small 22% that is West Bank and Gaza. What kind of carved up mess will the Palestinian State be unless all the settlements are removed (which will probably never happen) or just make the settlements part of the New Palestinian State (which can happen right now)?? CLICK HERE > http://mondediplo.com/maps/IMG/artoff3260.jpg Who is left out?
Saturday Jun 28th, 2003 4:39 AM
" Many Arab States"
Things like this could be bit of a problem. maybe most of the arab league will recognise israel and syria wont and then syria will attack israel and the arab league will find whether it recognised israel or not it has to side with its ally. its like negotiationg peace with the PLO and then finding after giving away one set of things to the PLO that you have to renegotiate it with Hamas etc etc. I not suggesting we give up however it seems that trading "peace" for land or anything else is a tricky deal since the people offering "peace" A) can withdraw it at any time and be in a better situation than before. and B) cant honestly promise that under all circumstances they will deliver peace (unless they totally disarm,or if they are lying). Israel isn't going away. Sorry.
Saturday Jun 28th, 2003 8:27 AM
Despite the desire of a billion arabs, Israel isn't going away. It's there to stay. Israel's neighbors can keep attacking it and drawing israel military responses, or they can give up and act nice, and in return Israel will eventually hand temporary-leading-to-permanent land control over to them.
"Israel isn't going away."
Saturday Jun 28th, 2003 9:58 AM
That's what Hitler said about the "thousand year" reich.
heard it before
Saturday Jun 28th, 2003 2:56 PM
So do you have 10 million or so people (plus all the other side effects of WWII) to spare in order to get rid of israel? If so you are one insane man.
me
Saturday Jun 28th, 2003 4:23 PM
capitalism is the main source of the problem and zionism is an extention of it!
ME
Saturday Jun 28th, 2003 7:38 PM
when you have a better solution(one that works) than capitalism I might stop to listen but at the moment your going to have to live with it.
zionism
Sunday Jun 29th, 2003 12:40 PM
"Zionism" is the desire for israel to exist as a jewish state.
Zionism's goal is that israel exist, forever. Those of you who are against zionism, or against israel's existence, just stop posting here, and go join hamas and try to make it happen. Have a nice life. Zionism = Hate
Sunday Jun 29th, 2003 5:45 PM
"Zionism" is the desire for a jewish state removed from any moral obligation.
If Israel were truly an 'honest' state, Israel wouldn't have found it necessary to lie, cheat and steal. However due to fact that Israel seeks it's 'justification' for existence based upon a history of lies and deceit. I have a very difficult time seeing any reason for it's continued existance. In fact, the continued existance of Israel if anything, only brings shame to the world jewish population. Ugh
Sunday Jun 29th, 2003 6:01 PM
Zionism has nothing to do with "hate" you stupid idiot. The end of zionism means the death of the jews of israel. That's what hamas and a solid chunk of the islamic world wants. That's not what I want.
Furthermore, just about every nation on earth has at one point or another "lied and cheated" as you call it. That you only apply your retarded standards to israel indicate that your screws are loose. Morons
Sunday Jun 29th, 2003 6:05 PM
America was founded by slaughtering native americans and stealing their land.
Do you want to undo america? Australia was founded by slaughtering native aboriginals and stealing their land. Do you want to undo australia? Half the middle east was founded by western countries who controlled the land. DO you want to undo half hte middle east? Pakistan was carved out of india and handed to violent muslims who were killing hindus. Should we undo pakistan? You israel-haters are morons, because not only do you make insane accusations against israel, but then you don't even come remotely close to applying the same standards to the rest of the world. Valid criticism of israel's govt is one thing, but you "israel has no right to exist" and "zionism is hate" FREAKS seriously need to seek mental help. "The end of zionism means the death of the jews of israel."
Sunday Jun 29th, 2003 6:11 PM
It has created the only place on earth where Jews are routinely murdered, solely because they are Jews.
Torah Traitors
Sunday Jun 29th, 2003 6:33 PM
That land doesn't belong to you, so get lost! Only the true jews will accept that. And those who can't swallow the truth and accept zionism as part of their faith, are traitors in the highest order in every sense of the word.
Before the existence of zionist israel, there was peace in palestine even among the arabs and the jews living in that area. Now look what the zionist has done! Bloodshed everwhere. Shame on you if you supported the zionist israeli cause! Either you are to blind, or too dumb to see what is happening around you. The only reason you don't feel safe is because of what the zionist israel is doing to the people of palestine and the land that have been stole from the palestinians. Remember, in the beginning there was peace... then came the rogue state of israel. To Uhh
Sunday Jun 29th, 2003 7:56 PM
If you have a pie, and i take the whole of it, cause I am a fat bastard, only later to "offer" you 1/4 of the pie back, on the condition that I will be guaranteed a peace of mind from your starving self, would that be considered a "fair negotiating ploy or not">
double standard
Sunday Jun 29th, 2003 8:19 PM
>jews . . . second classs citizens
Now some of them treat Arabs as second class citizens. And this is better, how? Nuh uh
Sunday Jun 29th, 2003 10:50 PM
Israel treats its Muslim citizens better not than Jews are treated in Arab countries, but better than the average citizen is treated in those totalitarian/authoritarian countries.
Israel, the Jewish state, provides preferential citizenship laws to Jews. Just as France does to people with French blood ("jus sanguinis" or "di sangre nationality laws") and just as Germany does to ethnic speakers of the German language (and, curiously, to Jews). There is nothing unusual in Israel's immigration laws. What should we think if a small group of radical right wing German Americans spoke out that Germany was not the German state? Yet here we are to believe that a buch of right-wing reliigous fanatics, who condemn Zionists as "atheists", who are against abortion, against feminism, against gay rights, are suddenly on to something when they condemn Israel for not being religious enough?! Who would post such a thing? Hmmm. "Israel isn't leaving."
Sunday Jun 29th, 2003 11:12 PM
That's what Hitler said about the "thousand year" reich.
Time for a Palestinian State.
Monday Jun 30th, 2003 1:17 AM
"""Morons
by the anti-israel freaks are morons Sunday June 29, 2003 at 06:05 PM"""" So now lets take the West Bank and Gaza and make the State of Palestine since there are almost as many people in this area as there is in the State of Israel. Gaza and West Bank is only 22% of what is TODAY Israel, West Bank and Gaza. 22% is not to much to ask for millions of Palestinian People who deserve to be free just like anybody else, after all the U.S. believes in freedom and justice for all!!!! (not just for the Israelis) Statistics
Monday Jun 30th, 2003 1:41 AM
Gaza and Jordan's former so-called "West Bank" are 22% of Israel, which in turn is 20% of "historic Palestine".
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/palaestina_1849.jpg Which means that 80% of "historic Palestine" is already in Arab hands. Jews only have 20% and are being asked to give up 5% to form a 2nd Arab state in "Palestine". Trans-Jordan was carved out of "Palestine" in 1923 as an exclusive Arab (no Jews allowed) land. It was eastern Palestine and the name reflects the reference to Palestine across (to the east) of the Jordan river: Trans-Jordan. After seizing what for thousands of years was known as "Judea" and "Samaria" in the 1948 war against Israel, Trans-Jordan "unified" itself with this portion of western Palestine as its "West Bank". In other words, the part of Palestine east of the Jordan river which is west of the Jordan river..... For more on the land history, see: http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1623475.php > Palestinian People who deserve to be free just like anybody else Do the Copts in Egypt also deserve to be free? Do the Kurds in Iraq/Iran/Syria also deserve to be free? Do the Chaldeans in Iraq also deserve to be free? Do the Madan in Iraq also deserve to be free? Do the Berbers in north Africa also deserve to be free? Or do these groups deserve to suffer under continued Arab rule? Why is it that the "humanists" who are so concerned with the Palestinian Arabs, to the point of entering dozens of anti-Israel articles per week, never find the time for even a single article about these other subjects? True, but how?
Monday Jun 30th, 2003 5:18 AM
How do you get anyone who has hundreds of nuclear weapons (and the will to use them) to do anything? Appeal to their better nature? It may be possible to return control of the worldwide press to their respective nations; but , without that press control, how do you do that? Like the USSR, the change must come from within Israel. Maybe the upcoming economic depression will help. But only if America can regain control of its government from Israel.
thanks for your concern Dave
Monday Jun 30th, 2003 8:38 AM
...but Israel does not control my government. Neither do you (thank god). Get over it.
Israel does not control America's government.
Monday Jun 30th, 2003 9:30 AM
Israel's supporters control America's government. America's government controls Israel. Israel is a puppet, client state.
don't forget Yoda
Monday Jun 30th, 2003 9:40 AM
And little green men doing Frank Oz imitations control all of them, and the media too.
What good is a conspiracy theory that doesn't include Yoda? @%< Undo America?
Monday Jun 30th, 2003 9:41 AM
Clever, should we "undo" America because it's creation was based on a crime (specifically, the crime of breaking numerous treaties for land/resource ownership bewteen indiginous tribes and eurpoean settlers)?
I think the question should be why shouldn't we "undo" America, then, if its creation was illegal? Is there some "statute of limitations" on the truth? If something was brought into existence under a pretense that was false, how long can it be expected to last? I contend that it will not last, and that eventually right-thinking individuals will overturn any power authroity built on a lie. Maybe the real question about America is not whether or not is shall fall but when will it really be born, live up to its promise and potential. Mass Ignorance
Monday Jun 30th, 2003 9:46 AM
It is almost funny watching the para-informed sheep in this thread.
However, please note, that I said "almost funny", because it is trully pathetic that so many believe the zionist drivel including the elephant in the living-room that everyone is afraid to mention. The emperor's clothes
Monday Jun 30th, 2003 10:22 AM
Don't look any better on a non-existent elephant.
----------------------------------------------------------------------- So let's try to focus on the topic of this article. Can anyone answer my questions? What should we think if a small group of radical right wing German Americans spoke out that Germany was not the German state? Yet here we are to believe that a bunch (a dozen or two in the picture above) of right-wing religous fanatics, who condemn Zionists as "atheists", who are against abortion, against feminism, against gay rights, are suddenly on to something when they condemn Israel for not being religious enough?! focus on logic
Monday Jun 30th, 2003 10:49 AM
>What should we think if a small group of radical right wing German Americans spoke out that Germany was not the German state?
This is an invalid analogy. NK does not say that Israel is not the Jewish state. They say that there is no such thing as a Jewish state, because G-d hasn’t created it yet. >they condemn Israel for not being religious enough?! That’s not what they say, either. They say that no state founded by Jews is valid because only G-d can found the Jewish state. It’s not about how religious Israel is, but that it exists at all. “The founding of the Zionist state is in direct contradiction to the teachings of the Torah, which forbids the establishment of a Jewish state and commands Jews to remain in exile until they are released therefrom by G-d himself, without any human intervention, at which time all nations of the world will live together in peace, and serve their Creator in unity.” doesn't matter
Monday Jun 30th, 2003 11:10 AM
Some guy: "This is an invalid analogy. NK does not say that Israel is not the Jewish state. They say that there is no such thing as a Jewish state, because G-d hasn’t created it yet."
That doesn't change KL's argument a whit. You're still talking about a subgroup claiming to be empowered to speak for the whole group when they clearly do not. @%< subgroup speaking for whole?
Monday Jun 30th, 2003 2:09 PM
Some "subgroups" do speak for the whole, e.g., the US Congress, when it accepts bribes from the Zionist Lobby in DC (which ultimately the US taxpayer provides!) speaks 'for the whole US'; further, they promise undying loyalty to the Zionist state (why don't they run for office there?), using US tax money in their campaigns. Then they get the US bogged down in the Zionist anti-Arab and anti-Muslim conflicts, so US people suffer and die, and lose our domestic freedoms, all for the sake of (Israel's)security!
try again
Monday Jun 30th, 2003 2:48 PM
AZ: "Some "subgroups" do speak for the whole, e.g., the US Congress"
* rolling eyes * Remind me again -- when are the elections in which the Jews vote to make the Neturai Karta their representatives? Or is the rhetorical strategy just for you folks to throw every red herring you can get your hands on to deflect from KL's simple and self-evident point, which is that the NK wouldn't be the oft-cited darlings of Indybay if either (a) the NK held a different stance on Zionism, or (b) you took a closer look at their stance on other issues. That's why I get a chuckle every time someone brings the NK up in the first place -- because they really have only one rhetorical purpose on this site. @%< Stop and think
Monday Jun 30th, 2003 3:30 PM
KL>What should we think if a small group of radical right wing German Americans spoke out that Germany was not the German state?
SG> This is an invalid analogy. NK does not say that Israel is not the Jewish state. They say that there is no such thing as a Jewish state, because G-d hasn’t created it yet. I see. And how is this different? If some Germans said that there is no such thing as a German state because God hasn't creted it yet you would rightly dismiss them as the kooks they are. In this day and age, God doesn't create states. People do. If NK want to believe differently, they have that right, but don't expect anyone else to be impressed by this. KL> they condemn Israel for not being religious enough?! SG> That’s not what they say, either. They say that no state founded by Jews is valid because only G-d can found the Jewish state. It’s not about how religious Israel is, but that it exists at all. Same thing. They claim that Israel lacks religious authority to exist. Why should I care? Freedom of religion is also freedom FROM religion. NK doesn't seem to understand this. Do you? Guess again
Monday Jun 30th, 2003 5:50 PM
Jewish refers to the people, the nation of Jews.
(Judaism or Judaic refers to the Jewish religion.) Israel is the Jewish state in the same sense that Iran is the Persian state. Again, what a dozen or two right-wing religious fanatics in NY think doesn't change this. It just exposes the true nature of the "anti-Zionists" here. 2 uhh
Monday Jun 30th, 2003 6:06 PM
teaching the children to kill and dispossess the Arabic people for mentioning that G-D is Great (and SHE DEFINITELY IS!!!) and locking up young adults (one of many is the nephew of prime minister, benjamin natanyahu) in jail for upholding judaism while refusing to rob and murder those who mention That
G-D is GREAT is part of your culture as well? Really
Tuesday Jul 1st, 2003 5:06 AM
I have to say that some people really are ignorant. The claim that the Arab states ban other religions than Islam is ridicilous. In Egypt there are catholics and christians and they are propably treated better there than in Israel. Even Iraq under Saddam Hussein was religious free. In Israel non - Jews have to carry special identification cards to show they are not Jews. That is not the routine in the Arab states. Israel is propably never going away, but neither is Palestine. I agree that Zionism is the root to the problem. Zionists have always been a problem. That is a fact.
Your ignorance is a fact
Tuesday Jul 1st, 2003 8:20 AM
Christians in Iraq have it so bad that many have left the country. Christian Copts (like homosexuals) are severely discriminated against in Egypt. Under Jordanian rule in eastern Jerusalem from 1948-1967, conditions were so bad that the Christian community dropped in half.
So now let's see if what Siggi said was itself ignorance or factual: > The claim that the Arab states ban other religions than Islam is ridicilous. I'm not sure anyone made that straw-man claim, only that they face severe discrimination in many cases. > In Egypt there are catholics and christians and they are propably treated better there than in Israel. Ignorant. Read up on the historic and present discrimination against Coptic Christians. > Even Iraq under Saddam Hussein was religious free. Ignorant. Know any Chaldeans? > In Israel non - Jews have to carry special identification cards to show they are not Jews. Ignorant. Israeli ID cards display the religion, but not just of non-Jews. This is not at all uncommon but this practice has been or is being done away with. Here's what Joe Farah, an Arab-American, wrote about the situation of Christians in Palestine: || When Palestinian Rashid Hussein became a Christian, Yasser Arafat's police force called him in for questioning.... the Christian population of the area has dropped from 15 percent to 2 percent in that period.... They are being driven out. They are being murdered. They are being raped. They are being systematically persecuted. They are being harassed. They are being intimidated. http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/printer-friendly.asp?ARTICLE_ID=32560 Here's what Prof. Habib Malik (from the Lebanese American University) wrote: || Over the centuries, political Islam has not been too kind to the native Christian communities living under its rule. Anecdotes of tolerance aside, the systematic treatment of Christians and Jews (who fall under the Islamic category of dhimmi) as second-class citizens is abusive and discriminatory by any standard. http://www.al-bushra.org/jerus2K/christians.htm Right
Tuesday Jul 1st, 2003 12:53 PM
So my ignorance is a fact? That's a good one. I am sure that christians are oppressed in Palestine. But by whom? Uzi toting settlers or an illegal Israeli occupation army in Palestine? I myself do not condone discrimination in any form. Whereas in Israel, Palestine or anywhere else. The fact here is that a whole nation is being raped every day by the IDF and no one seems to care. Human rights abuses are always illegal, it should not matter who carries them out. There is discrimination in Israel where muslims are treated as second class citizens. When the state of Israel came to existence in 1948 a lot of christian Palestinians were forced out of their homes. I do condemn the Zionist ideology about a state for only the Jewish people on land that belonged to others. The state of Israel is not going anywhere and i think every one understands that. But no one can justify what Israel has done since 1948 just as no one should justify suicide bombings against Israelis. I am called ignorant. So be it but i would urge any one to check out these websites: whtt.org or gush-shalom.org. Respect.
oppressed christians
Tuesday Jul 1st, 2003 1:49 PM
So when the new state of Palestine comes into existence under strict Sharia law (as per its charter), you will fight for the rights of the non-Muslims?
to KL
Tuesday Jul 1st, 2003 1:53 PM
KL many of the officials in Iraqi president saddamm hussain regime were of Christian origin.
How many officials in ariel Sharons' adminstration are of Christian origin? Absolutely zero. trivia for the blind sheep
Tuesday Jul 1st, 2003 2:00 PM
who burned the Holiest ground in Christianity ( the Church of Nativity )where the Messiah Is Assumed to be born?
Sharon and his military. Who?
Tuesday Jul 1st, 2003 2:09 PM
WHo shit on the floor in the Church of the Nativity. WHo violated the sactity of this church by bringing weapons inside. Who stole from the franciscan priests.??? Who destroyed Joseph's Tomb, burning the books, and hacking at the ancient stones???
THE PALESTINIANS Who destroyed 53 Synogogues in Jerusalem between 1948-67, Who paved a road with ancient Jewish tombstones on the Mount of Olives, who forbid Jews from worshiping at the Western Wall, Cave of the Patriarchs from 1948-67???? The ARABS Who collaborated with Hitler in the final solution of JEWS??? MUFTI OF JERUSALEM Who murdered 68 innocent men women and children, with a rallying cry of "Idbar al Yahud" (Slaughter the Jews) in Hebron in 1929???? The ARABS WHo ethnically cleansed all the JEws from Judea and Samaria (WEST BANK) and Gaza in 1948??? The ARABS no thanks to your racism
Tuesday Jul 1st, 2003 4:17 PM
Tom: "The ARABS"
This kind of shit gets you absolutely nowhere. I think that the history of Arab leadership on the Israel/Arab conflict is a sorry one, and I think the history of Yasir Arafat's "leadership" is even more sorry -- there's nobody in the world who's done more to thwart Palestinian aspirations -- but to tar all Arabs, no thanks. @%< thats true
Tuesday Jul 1st, 2003 5:31 PM
I do not dare tarnish the name of the Arab people, they who have brought so much good into this world, so much contributions to the betterment of all mankind.
THere are so many arabs who are worthy of a Nobel Peace Prizes. Unless the Norwegians start awarding Nobel Prizes for plane hijackings, pizza shop bombings, civilian bus attacks, Jihad suicides/homocides, drive-by shootings, throat-slittings, embassy attacks and other such acts of barbarisms, the embarrassing low level of contribution to the welfare of Civilization and Mankind by the Arab/Muslim world will continue. The Jewish People, meanwhile, will continue being the Lights Unto All Nations. So sorry
Tuesday Jul 1st, 2003 9:24 PM
Siggi, I don't mean to offend you, but when you make statemens as these it's hard to consider you as other than ignorant:
> I do condemn the Zionist ideology about a state for only the Jewish people on land that belonged to others. First of all, Zionism never claimed exclusivity ("only"). It accepted a two-state solution as early as 1937. It was the Arabs who repeatedly have rejected this and any compromise because they want to "drive the Jews into the sea". To wipe out Jews in the area. While it is true that some Arabs were expelled by Israel in 1948 (the majority fled of their own volition), the fact of the matter is that responsibility for the war rests with the Arabs. More importantly, whereas those Arabs who remained in Israel were safe (and indeed, today they enjoy more rights and freedoms than do their brothers in any Arab country), absolutely no Jews remained in areas that were conquered by Arab armies. They were 100% ethnically cleansed. In eastern Jerusalem alone 58 synagogues were destroyed. (Thus some now errantly refer to it as "Arab East Jerusalem", ignoring that it was so only for a short 20-year period which ended 36 years ago.) YELLOQ asserts: > KL many of the officials in Iraqi president saddamm hussain regime were of Christian origin. I'm only aware of 1 and I think you miss the point. Having a Christian as the #2 man was very safe for Saddam. He didn't have to worry about an assassination attempt; a Christian couldn't possibly succeed him as President of Iraq. > How many officials in ariel Sharons' adminstration are of Christian origin? Irrelevant. Only 2% of Israelis are Christian (and many of these are religious officials not seeking political office). That none of about a dozen cabinet members are Christian is not relevant. What is relevant is that Christians in Israel have complete freedom of worship, are not persecuted, etc. Unlike in Palestine, there is no penalty for converting to Christianity and no harrassment. Unlike in Saudi Arabia, it is not illegal to own a Christain bible. To the shepherd bent on misleading the Sheeple: > who burned the Holiest ground in Christianity ( the Church of Nativity )where the Messiah Is Assumed to be born? If the Church was "burned", then it was done by the terrorist muslims who broke their way into the church and held hostages within. Where did you get the burning idea from?
Wednesday Jul 2nd, 2003 1:53 AM
They laid seige to the church and then the "militants" inside made a deal. at what stage did they "burn" it?
The Zionazi motto :When in doubt proceed to lie,
Wednesday Jul 2nd, 2003 6:06 PM
KL wrote the following:
"Unlike in Palestine, there is no penalty for converting to Christianity and no harrassment." Arafats wife, Suha, is a devoted Christian! I doubt she is being harrassed by the Palestinians who are the real descendants of Christ. The fire within the holiest ground of Christianity was started by Israeli troops, who held captive Palestinian Christians who found refuge in the place of birth of the Lord! You must depend on the publics TOTAL ignorance to get away with your rewriting history. If truth is not on your side, better be loose with it! RIght!!!
Wednesday Jul 2nd, 2003 8:26 PM
>Arafats wife, Suha, is a devoted Christian!
I doubt she is being harrassed by the Palestinians who are the real descendants of Christ. Bullshit, most of the "Palestinians" or Arabs a part of the PAN ARABIC NATION are recent immigrants to the land. JUst trace back their ancesty.....All of arafat (and egyptian) and his henchmen (shaath, dahlan, abbas) are originally from other countries, namely syria and egypt. No discrimination of christians?? BUllshit. In fact a famous saying exists in the West bank and gaza that comes from palestinian muslims. "First comes saturday (the jews) then come SUnday (the christians). Remedial lessons in islam.
Wednesday Jul 2nd, 2003 8:48 PM
Suha better keep her christian head down whether she has a president for her husband or not!
MECCA, SAUDI ARABIA, April 09, 2001 (Web Today)—Call it a "conversion of necessity." American-born Suha Arafat, the spouse of Yassir, reportedly renounced her Christian faith to wed the Palestinian Authority chairman 11 years ago. Since that time, she has been spotted at midnight mass in Bethlehem and ordered the Christian baptism of her three-year-old daughter, Zahwa. Such lapses have not gone unnoticed in Yassir’s circles, so in a fence-mending operation, Suha will soon be put aboard a flight to Mecca to participate in a pilgrimage to the holiest of Muslim shrines. Yassir hopes the visit will put an end to the malicious backbiting aimed at his wife over her reported lavish lifestyle which has been compared to that of former Philippine first lady Imelda Marcos. Suha is 34 years younger than Yassir, a stunning blonde who prefers the company of the Arab elite to the downtrodden in their refugee camps. When she travels throughout territory controlled by the Palestinian Authority, Suha rides in a blue Mercedes Benz. She was purposely excluded from the White House signing of the Oslo accords in 1994 for fears her carefully preened profile might detract from the image of the revolutionary militant at her side. hmm,
Wednesday Jul 2nd, 2003 10:33 PM
yep, the Palestinean Authority is a capitalist enterprise. thanks for reminding us, scottie.
and for just a bit of salacious nonsense: my understanding is that Arafat is gay. Facts
Wednesday Jul 2nd, 2003 10:56 PM
Arafat is too unkempt to be gay. (:
KL> Unlike in Palestine, there is no penalty for converting to Christianity and no harrassment. ?> Arafats wife, Suha, is a devoted Christian! I doubt she is being harrassed by the Palestinians who are the real descendants of Christ. Yes, I doubt that Suha, living the good life IN PARIS, has to worry about what goes on in territories until recently controlled by her husband the dictator. As noted, the Palestinian Arabs arrived in recent centuries, many of them between the world wars. Any student of history would realize that Christianity faired poorly under Roman rule in Judea - just as did the Jews. In fact, many of the early Christians in Judea, like Christ himself, were Jews! Only with Byzantine rule did Christianity gain a foothold in Judea, a foothold it would lose first to Persian and then to Arab invaders. One it would attempt to regain during the Crusades, only to be driven out by the Kurds. Let's go back to Arab sources: Here's what Joe Farah, an Arab-American, wrote about the situation of Christians in Palestine: || When Palestinian Rashid Hussein became a Christian, Yasser Arafat's police force called him in for questioning.... the Christian population of the area has dropped from 15 percent to 2 percent in that period.... They are being driven out. They are being murdered. They are being raped. They are being systematically persecuted. They are being harassed. They are being intimidated. http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/printer-friendly.asp?ARTICLE_ID=32560 Here's what Prof. Habib Malik (from the Lebanese American University) wrote: || Over the centuries, political Islam has not been too kind to the native Christian communities living under its rule. Anecdotes of tolerance aside, the systematic treatment of Christians and Jews (who fall under the Islamic category of dhimmi) as second-class citizens is abusive and discriminatory by any standard. http://www.al-bushra.org/jerus2K/christians.htm capitalists
Thursday Jul 3rd, 2003 12:57 AM
Yep, the Palestinean Authority is a capitalist enterprise. Thanks for reminding us, Scottie.
OK go protests for communism on the PA.. Please.. I might even tentatively support you. Muslim Intolerance
Thursday Jul 3rd, 2003 1:48 PM
The koran has provisions for killing, discriminating against, and taxing non-believers.
Can anyone tell me one predominantly muslim nation where freedom of religion is enjoyed? Case closed. read books
Thursday Jul 3rd, 2003 6:58 PM
Tha talmud calls none jews 'goys.'
goys: is a deragotary term that means "animal like". if you want to know more about the black history in the talmud research noted professor israel Shahak, an authority on all things pertaining to Judaism. Are you Insane?
Thursday Jul 3rd, 2003 7:29 PM
In Palestine, Lebanon, and Albania, all of which are predominantly muslim countries where I have the experience of going to. They do not discriminate against christians. Maybe in Sudan, or against Coptics in Egypt, but I know from my own experience there is no discrimination against christians in Albania, Palestine or Lebanon. There was no hatred or dicrimination against Jews either, until 1948, and in the creation of the European country of Israel in the middle east.
Copts DO NOT support Israel
Thursday Jul 3rd, 2003 7:55 PM
There may be some discrimination against Christians in Egypt but it certainly is not widespread or state sponsored under law as it is in Israel -- Israeli law discriminates against its Christian and Muslim populations.
Lest Israel's supporters believe they have an ally in the Egyptian Coptic Orthodox Church, they may want to read this: "The General lay council for the Coptic Orthodox has convened in an extraordinary session presided by His Holiness Pope Shenouda III due to the deteriorating situation arising from the bloody events taken place in the holy lands. The Council followed with great sorrow the inhuman acts faced by Palestinians, and the Palestinian authority in terms of humiliating president Arafat who is the Palestinians' elected president and the symbol of their struggle to liberate their land. The situation has worsened to the extent that he was confined within the limits of two rooms with water, electricity and food cut off and his life jeopardized. The Israeli's obstinacy has reached the verge of ignoring and defying the security council resolution no. 1402, which calls upon Israel to withdraw from the territories subject to the Palestinian authority. Not only that but also refusing the peace initiative emerged from the Arab summit conference held in Beirut last month. Moreover, the Israel's counter action has mounted to extent of invading the Palestinians cities and villages and attempting to eradicate the Palestinian's existence on their own land in addition to the cruel acts of violence, which undermines the endeavors of the Palestinian president to control the enflamed feelings of his oppressed people and his candid attempts to reach for the negotiations table. They have tightened their siege around the Palestinian president by declaring that "Ramalla" is a closed military city. They disconnected both the city and Yasser Arafat from the rest of the world by deporting all media people from the city, preventing the Christian religious principalities to get any access to the area, cutting off any humanitarian aid and executing civilians, some of whom were executed before their folks. This has led to the feelings of despair and frustration to reach a peaceful solution, which aggravated the Arab peoples and augmented exasperation everywhere. Hence, the general lay Council calls upon the major countries and international conscience to promptly exert effective and practical efforts to put an end to the massacres and all acts of violence, sabotage as well as the inhuman actions that are taking place in the holy lands. Also, the council calls upon the churches of the world to make any contacts within their power to waken the international conscience for the protection of the unarmed oppressed ones, retrieval of peace to the area and lifting the continuing sieges to put an end to violence. We all pray for the establishment of a sovereign Palestinian State for this is the sole solution towards permanent & just peace in the area." ...
Thursday Jul 3rd, 2003 7:58 PM
The european country has stretched everywhere but the mideast until the aftermath of the war.
they were in every single continent from the far east (australia) to the americas, to north africa and later also south, and finally Palestine. And now they are situated warmly in Iraq and the rest of the Arab world! Stop the insanity
Thursday Jul 3rd, 2003 10:32 PM
A poster masquerading as "Israel Shahak" states:
> goys: is a deragotary term that means "animal like". http://www.ling.upenn.edu/courses/Spring_2002/ling102/fp3words.html || Main Entry: goy. Function: noun || Pronunciation: 'goi || Inflected Form(s): plural goy·im /'goi-&m/; also goys || Etymology: Yiddish, from Hebrew gOy people, nation http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/S94.html || Central Semitic noun *gy-, tribe. goy, from Hebrew gôy, nation people (usually, and later exclusively, of non-Israelite, and then non-Jewish, people). A person posing as an "Arab Christian" states: > I know from my own experience there is no discrimination against christians in Albania, Palestine or Lebanon. Really? Why is it that Christians in southern Lebanon greeted Israeli soldiers as liberators, showering them with rice and flowers? Could it be because in towns like Damur Arafat's men had murdered thousands of civilians and turned the Church into a munitions warehouse? Why should we believe your "experience" over that of Lebanese Arab scholars? Here's what Prof. Habib Malik (from the Lebanese American University) wrote: || Over the centuries, political Islam has not been too kind to the native Christian communities living under its rule. Anecdotes of tolerance aside, the systematic treatment of Christians and Jews (who fall under the Islamic category of dhimmi) as second-class citizens is abusive and discriminatory by any standard. http://www.al-bushra.org/jerus2K/christians.htm > There was no hatred or dicrimination against Jews either, until 1948, Hogwash. Except for a few short-lived golden eras, Jews were always "dhimmi", subject to numerous massacres over the ages (like in Europe by Christians). The situation in the "holy land", under the Muslim Ottoman Empire, got so desperate in the 19th century that Jews had to appeal to European powers for protection (read up on the "Capitulations"). Nonetheless, around the turn of the century roughly 1/3rd of the Jewish population had emmigrated. For more on the Historic Mistreatment of Jews under Arab/Muslim rule, see: http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/07/1624607.php > the creation of the European country of Israel in the middle east. The majority of Jewish Israelis are not of European (nor American or Russian) background. Now let's look at what "Truth" attempts to pull: > There may be some discrimination against Christians in Egypt but it certainly is not widespread or state sponsored under law as it is in Israel -- Israeli law discriminates against its Christian and Muslim populations. Israeli law affords freedom of religion to all. All Israeli citizens, Jewish or not, are equal before the law. Copts in Egypt are officially and systematically discriminated against. http://www.copts.net/demands.asp || Copts (Christians of Egypt) are not asking for special treatment to compensate for centuries of discrimination and persecution. They are only asking for equality. They don't want anything more, and they will not settle for anything less. It is hard to believe that , at the turn of the 21st century,equality to Copts remains a luxury they still dream of. 1. Christians must receive permission from the President of Egypt for permission to build, repair or maintain churches. (Mosques can do as they please.) 2. Copts pay for TV & radio, but are not allowed to broadcast (Muslims are). 3. Copt lands have been taken over by the Ministry for Islamic Affairs. || 4. Copts want an end to forced conversion of Christian girls, who are kidnapped and raped by Muslim extremists. There are reports of police protection given to the abductors. || 5- Copts want all Egyptian citizens to have the freedom of belief, including the freedom to change one's religion. Christians are welcomed to convert to Islam, so Muslims should be free to convert to Christianity, if they so chose. Those converts are usually subjected to imprisonment and torture. || 6- Copts want religious affiliation be removed from national ID cards, job applications,.etc...so Christians could not be identified and discriminated against. This is a legacy from the days of the British Empire, but funny how the "anti-Zionists" selectively think it is awful when Israel does this [though that's changing] yet don't care that surrounding Arab countries do the same. There are numerous other points made by the Copts. If you're concerned with the truth, go read up. one predominantly muslim nation where freedom of religion is enjoyed
Friday Jul 4th, 2003 7:40 AM
Turkey is one such country.
more nazoid nonsense
Friday Jul 4th, 2003 12:25 PM
bogus poster: " goys: is a deragotary term that means "animal like"."
Horseshit -- another one of those antisemitic tropes that seems to pop up so frequently here. Goy = "nation" or "people." As in the Biblical prophesy, "Nation shall not rise up against nation, neither shall they study war no more, " which is, in the original Hebrew, "Lo yisa goy al goy cherev, lo yilmidu od milchama." @%< mmm
Friday Jul 4th, 2003 3:00 PM
turkey has been trying to be part of the EU and so may well be the best Islamic country in terms of human rights to other religions. Still being a kurd isnt so nice in turkey.
discrimination against goys
Friday Jul 4th, 2003 5:25 PM
If a jewish Israeli wishes to marry a Christian Arab he must renounce his citizenship and move away to either Gaza or the west bank.
The above has just been enacted as a law, in Israel in the twenty first century/ I can't believe this!!
Friday Jul 4th, 2003 9:06 PM
Isn't this behavoiur something that should have gone the way of the dinasour? And it is becoming "law" now?
How totally astonishing (and I'm being kind here). BS
Friday Jul 4th, 2003 9:27 PM
A bill was introduced (and does not say what you alledge; it would only deny automatic citizenship for the spouse). At its first reading, 1/3rd of the legislature didn't even bother to show up to vote on it. It will never pass.
Which is why the "anti-Zionists" must trumpet this propaganda now before the bill is defeated and the wind taken out of their false sails. Lazy Bums
Sunday Jul 6th, 2003 4:26 AM
"A bill was introduced (and does not say what you alledge; it would only deny automatic citizenship for the spouse). At its first reading, 1/3rd of the legislature didn't even bother to show up to vote on it. It will never pass."
1/3rd of the legislature doesn't even bother to vote? Hah! So much for the "democracy" in the Middle East. Maybe they're too busy enjoying their US taxpayer-funded trips to whorehouses in Cyprus to bother with voting on "irrelevant" bills. monotheistic religions = root of all evil
Sunday Jul 6th, 2003 11:32 AM
Well all of this drivel is fine and dandy. Yet at the end of the day gets us nowhere closer. The problems in the Middle East and the US involvement there can be summarized in the evil tendencies of Islam, Christianity and Judaism. All three religions lead their followers to think they know what God's will on this earth are. All three of the religions lead their followers to believe in a supremacy of sorts. The white, non-Arab Zionists in Israel have not only the religious supremacy going on but the racial supremacy as well.
Until we have new prophets and new ways of thinking we as a humanity will be doomed to continue repeating the mistakes of past history. KL
Sunday Jul 6th, 2003 11:52 PM
My questions about the original article remain unanswered:
What should we think if a small group of radical right wing German Americans spoke out that Germany was not the German state? Yet here we are to believe that a bunch (a dozen or two in the picture above) of right-wing religous fanatics, who condemn Zionists as "atheists", who are against abortion, against feminism, against gay rights, are suddenly on to something when they condemn Israel for not being religious enough?! Now let's look at the new lies that were introduced to divert attention from the above: > goys: is a deragotary term that means "animal like". Quoting two dictionaries, we see that the etymology is from nation or people. http://www.ling.upenn.edu/courses/Spring_2002/ling102/fp3words.html http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/S94.html Then someone posing as an "Arab Christian" stated: > I know from my own experience there is no discrimination against christians in Albania, Palestine or Lebanon. It's incredible that one person could have really experienced so much as to make such an absolute statement, especially when it's so obviously wrong! Why is it that Christians in southern Lebanon greeted Israeli soldiers as liberators, showering them with rice and flowers? Could it be because in towns like Damur Arafat's men had murdered thousands of civilians and turned the Church into a munitions warehouse? Why should we believe his "experience" over that of Lebanese Arab scholars? Here's what Prof. Habib Malik (from the Lebanese American University) wrote: || Over the centuries, political Islam has not been too kind to the native Christian communities living under its rule. Anecdotes of tolerance aside, the systematic treatment of Christians and Jews (who fall under the Islamic category of dhimmi) as second-class citizens is abusive and discriminatory by any standard. http://www.al-bushra.org/jerus2K/christians.htm Then they tried to sell us this lie: > There was no hatred or dicrimination against Jews either, until 1948, Read up on the Historic Mistreatment of Jews under Arab/Muslim rule: http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/07/1624607.php Next: > the creation of the European country of Israel in the middle east. But the majority of Jewish Israelis are not of European (nor American or Russian) background. Then, in most Orwellian fashion, someone posting as "Truth" uttered: > There may be some discrimination against Christians in Egypt but it certainly is not widespread or state sponsored under law as it is in Israel -- Israeli law discriminates against its Christian and Muslim populations. Israeli law affords freedom of religion to all. All Israeli citizens, Jewish or not, are equal before the law. Copts in Egypt are officially and systematically discriminated against. http://www.copts.net/demands.asp Lastly: > If a jewish Israeli wishes to marry a Christian Arab he must renounce his citizenship and move away to either Gaza or the west bank. A bill was introduced (and does not say what you allege; it would only deny automatic citizenship for the spouse. A Jewish Israeli isn't likely to survive for long in Gaza/WB, nor is the Arab spouse/"collaborator"). At its first reading, 1/3rd of the legislature didn't even bother to show up to vote on it. It will never pass. Which is why the "anti-Zionists" must trumpet this propaganda now before the bill is defeated and the wind taken out of their false sails. zionist aversions
Monday Jul 7th, 2003 4:54 AM
KL - Do you have ANYTHING to say about the CONTENT of U.S. President Woodrow Wilson's King-Crane Commission report on Zionism from 1919?
http://www.ku.edu/~kansite/ww_one/docs/kncr.htm
I've posted it here at sfimc at least a half dozen times.
Zionists always choose to ignore it.
==========================================
Do you have anything to say about content of the Proposal of the National Military Organization in Palestine (Irgun Zvai Leumi) Concerning the SOLUTION OF THE JEWISH QUESTION in Europe and the Participation of the NMO in the War ON THE SIDE OF GERMANY?
http://www.marxists.de/middleast/brenner/irgunazi.htm
KL?
Was it not the Irgun Zvai Leumi who were responsible for the assassination of Counte Folke Bernadotte after he negotiated for the release of thousands of Jews from concentration camps?
Was Yitzahk Shamir a member of the Irgun, KL?
Did Shamir order the assassination of Bernadotte?
Did Shamir become prime minister of Israel?
KL?
========================================
"In our political argument abroad, we minimize Arab opposition to us...but let us not ignore the truth amongst ourselves - WE ARE THE AGGRESSORS, and THEY DEFEND THEMSELVES.
Ben Gurion, 1938 - 10 years before Nakba
KL
Monday Jul 7th, 2003 8:29 AM
We haven't discussed this in this thread, and whatever was written certainly doesn't excuse the above lies & misinformation. But then, your point was to introduce a red-herring to change the subject, right?
aversions of the zionist
Monday Jul 7th, 2003 9:26 AM
HISTORICAL DOCUMENTATION that zionists (including KL on many occassions) refuse to acknowledge, prefering instead to change the subject, attack and defame the source, or INTENTIONALLY AND DECEIPTFULLY MISCATEGORIZE AS, quote:
from President Woodrow Wilson's 1919 King-Crane Commission Report: E. We recommend, in the fifth place, serious modification of the extreme Zionist program for Palestine of unlimited immigration of Jews, looking finally to making Palestine distinctly a Jewish State. (1) The Commissioners began their study of Zionism with minds predisposed in its favor, but the actual facts in Palestine, coupled with the force of the general principles proclaimed by the Allies and accepted by the Syrians have driven them to the recommendation here made. (2) The commission was abundantly supplied with literature on the Zionist program by the Zionist Commission to Palestine; heard in conferences much concerning the Zionist colonies and their claims; and personally saw something of what had been accomplished. They found much to approve in the aspirations and plans of the Zionists, and had warm appreciation for the devotion of many of the colonists and for their success, by modern methods, in overcoming natural obstacles. (3) The Commission recognized also that definite encouragement had been given to the Zionists by the Allies in Mr. Balfour's often quoted statement in its approval by other representatives of the Allies. If, however, the strict terms of the Balfour Statement are adhered to -favoring "the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people," "it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights existing in non-Jewish communities in Palestine"-it can hardly be doubted that the extreme Zionist Program must be greatly modified. For "a national home for the Jewish people" is not equivalent to making Palestine into a Jewish State; nor can the erection of such a Jewish State be accomplished without the gravest trespass upon the "civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine." The fact came out repeatedly in the Commission's conference with Jewish representatives, that the Zionists looked forward to a practically complete dispossession of the present non-Jewish inhabitants of Palestine, by various forms of purchase. In his address of July 4, 1918, President Wilson laid down the following principle as one of the four great "ends for which the associated peoples of the world were fighting"; "The settlement of every question, whether of territory, of sovereignty, of economic arrangement, or of political relationship upon the basis of the free acceptance of that settlement by the people immediately concerned and not upon the basis of the material interest or advantage of any other nation or people which may desire a different settlement for the sake of its own exterior influence or mastery." If that principle is to rule, and so the wishes of Palestine's population are to be decisive as to what is to be done with Palestine, then it is to be remembered that the non-Jewish population of Palestine-nearly nine tenths of the whole-are emphatically against the entire Zionist program. The tables show that there was no one thing upon which the population of Palestine were more agreed than upon this. To subject a people so minded to unlimited Jewish immigration, and to steady financial and social pressure to surrenderthe land, would be a gross violation of the principle just quoted, and of the people's rights, though it kept within the forms of law. It is to be noted also that the feeling against the Zionist program is not confined to Palestine, but shared very generally by the people throughout Syria as our conferences clearly showed. More than 72 per cent-1,350 in all-of all the petitions in the whole of Syria were directed against the Zionist program. Only two requests-those for a united Syria and for independence-had a larger support This genera] feeling was only voiced by the "General Syrian Congress," in the seventh, eighth and tenth resolutions of the statement. (Already quoted in the report.) The Peace Conference should not shut its eyes to the fact that the anti-Zionist feeling in Palestine and Syria is intense and not lightly to be flouted. No British officer, consulted by the Commissioners, believed that the Zionist program could be carried out except by force of arms. The officers generally thought that a force of not less than 50,000 soldiers would be required even to initiate the program. That of itself is evidence of a strong sense of the injustice of the Zionist program, on the part of the non-Jewish populations of Palestine and Syria. Decisions, requiring armies to carry out, are sometimes necessary, but they are surely not gratuitously to be taken in the interests of a serious injustice. For the initial claim, often submitted by Zionist representatives, that they have a "right" to Palestine, based on an occupation of 2,000 years ago, can hardly be seriously considered. There is a further consideration that cannot justly be ignored, if the world is to look forward to Palestine becoming a definitely Jewish state, however gradually that may take place. That consideration grows out of the fact that Palestine is "the Holy Land" for Jews, Christians, and Moslems alike. Millions of Christians and Moslems all over the world are quite as much concerned as the Jews with conditions in Palestine especially with those conditions which touch upon religious feeling and rights. The relations in these matters in Palestine are most delicate and difficult. With the best possible intentions, it may be doubted whether the Jews could possibly seem to either Christians or Moslems proper guardians of the holy places, or custodians of the Holy Land as a whole. The reason is this: The places which are most sacred to Christians-those having to do with Jesus-and which are also sacred to Moslems, are not only not sacred to Jews, but abhorrent to them. It is simply impossible, under those circumstances, for Moslems and Christians to feel satisfied to have these places in Jewish hands, or under the custody of Jews. There are still other places about which Moslems must have the same feeling. In fact, from this point of view, the Moslems, just because the sacred places of all three religions are sacred to them have made very naturally much more satisfactory custodians of the holy places than the Jews could be. It must be believed that the precise meaning, in this respect, of the complete Jewish occupation of Palestine has not been fully sensed by those who urge the extreme Zionist program. For it would intensify, with a certainty like fate, the anti-Jewish feeling both in Palestine and in all other portions of the world which look to Palestine as "the Holy Land." In view of all these considerations, and with a deep sense of sympathy for the Jewish cause, the Commissioners feel bound to recommend that only a greatly reduced Zionist program be attempted by the Peace Conference, and even that, only very gradually initiated. This would have to mean that Jewish immigration should be definitely limited, and that the project for making Palestine distinctly a Jewish commonwealth should be given up. The Faithful are Allowed to Carry the Cornerstone to the Area of the Hulda Gates of the Temple Mount
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