SF Bay Area Indymedia indymedia
About Contact Subscribe Calendar Publish Print Donate

DEBUNKING CONSPIRACY THEORISTS
by Gerard Holmgren ( debunker [at] hotmail.com )
Saturday Feb 8th, 2003 3:07 PM
It doesn't help to have people spreading silly conspiracy theories about Sept 11.
DEBUNKING CONSPIRACY THEORISTS

PARANOID FANTASIES ABOUT SEPT 11 DISTRACT FROM THE REAL ISSUES

by Gerard Holmgren debunker [at] hotmail.com

Copyright Gerard Holmgren. Jan 9 2003.

This work may be freely copied and distributed without permisiion as long as it not for commercial use. Please include the author's name, the web address where you found it and the copyright notice.

Astute observers of history are aware that for every notable event there will ususally be at least one ,often several wild conspiracy theories which spring up around it. "The CIA killed Hendrix" " The Pope had John Lennon murdered ", "Hitler was half Werewolf", "Space aliens replaced Nixon with a clone" etc,etc. The bigger the event, the more ridiculous and more numerous are the fanciful rantings which circulate in relation to it.

So it's hardly surprising that the events of Sept 11 2001 have spawned their fair share of these ludicrous fairy tales. And as always, there is - sadly - a small but gullible percentage of the population eager to lap up these tall tales, regardless of facts or rational analysis.

One of the wilder stories circulating about Sept 11, and one that has attracted something of a cult following amongst conspiracy buffs is that it was carried out by 19 fanatical Arab hijackers, masterminded by an evil genius named Osama bin Laden, with no apparent motivation other than that they "hate our freedoms."

Never a group of people to be bothered by facts, the perpetrators of this cartoon fantasy have constructed an elaborately woven web of delusions and unsubstantiated hearsay in order to promote this garbage across the internet and the media to the extent that a number of otherwise rational people have actually fallen under its spell.

Normally I don't even bother debunking this kind of junk, but the effect that this paranoid myth is beginning to have requires a little rational analysis, in order to consign it to the same rubbish bin as all such silly conspiracy theories.

These crackpots even contend that the extremist Bush
regime was caught unawares by the attacks, had no hand in organizing them, and actually would have stopped them if it had been able.Blindly ignoring the stand down of the US air-force, the insider trading on airline stocks - linked to the CIA, the complicit behavior of Bush on the morning of the attacks, the controlled demolition of the WTC, the firing of a missile into the Pentagon and a host of other documented proofs that the Bush regime was behind the attacks, the conspiracy theorists stick doggedly to a silly story about 19 Arab hijackers somehow managing to commandeer 4 planes simultaneously and fly them around US airspace for nearly 2 hours ,crashing them into important buildings, without the US intelligence services having any idea that it was coming, and without the Air Force knowing what to do.

The huge difficulties with such a stupid story force them to invent even more preposturous stories to distract from its core silliness, and thus the tale has escalated into a mythic fantasy of truly gargantuan proportions.

It's difficult to apply rational analysis to such unmitigated stupidity, but that is the task which I take on in this article. However, it should be noted that one of the curious characteristics of conspiracy theorists is that they effortlessly change their so called evidence in response to each aspect which is debunked. As soon as one delusion is unmasked, they simply invent another to replace it, and deny that the first ever existed. Eventually, when they have turned full circle through this endlessly changing fantasy fog , they then re-invent the original delusion and deny that you ever debunked it, thus beginning the circle once more. This technique is known as "the fruit loop" and saves the conspiracy theorist from ever having to see any of their ideas through to their (ill)logical conclusions.

According to the practitioners of the fruit loop, 19 Arabs took over the 4 planes by subduing the passengers and crew through the use of guns,knives,box cutters and gas, and then used electronic guidance systems which they had smuggled on board to fly the planes to their targets.

The suspension of disbelief required for this outrageous concoction is only for the hard core conspiracy theorist. For a start, they conveniently skip over the awkward fact that there weren't any Arabs on the planes. If they were, one must speculate that they somehow got on board without being filmed by any of the security cameras and without being registered on the passenger lists. But the curly question of how they are supposed to have got on board is all too mundane for the exciting world of the conspiracy theorist. With vague mumblings that they must have been using false ID ( but never specifying which IDs they are alleged to have used, or how these were traced to their real identities), they quickly bypass this problem, to relate exciting and sinister tales about how some of the fictitious fiends were actually searched before boarding because they looked suspicious. However, as inevitably happens with any web of lies, this simply paints them into an even more difficult corner. How are they supposed to have got on board with all that stuff if they were searched ? And if they used gas in a confined space, they would have been affected themselves unless they also had masks in their luggage.
"Excuse me sir, why do you have a boxcutter, a gun, a container of gas, a gas mask and an electronic guidance unit in your luggage?"
"A present for your grandmother? Very well sir, on you get."
"Very strange", thinks the security officer. "That's the fourth Arabic man without an Arabic name who just got on board with a knife, gun or boxcutter and gas mask. And why does that security camera keep flicking off every time one these characters shows up? Must be one of those days I guess..."

Asking any of these basic questions to a conspiracy theorist is likely to cause a sudden leap to the claim that we know that they were on board because they left a credit card trail for the tickets they had purchased and cars they had rented. So if they used credit cards that identified them, how does that reconcile with the claim that they used false IDs to get on to the plane? But by this time ,the fruit loop is in full swing, as the conspiracy theorist tries to stay one jump ahead of this annoying and awkward rational analysis.They will allege that the hijackers' passports were found at the crash scenes. "So there!" they exalt triumphantly, their fanatical faces lighting up with that deranged look of one who has just a revelation of questionable sanity.

Hmm? So they got on board with false IDs but took their real passports with them? However, by this time the fruit loop has been completely circumnavigated,and the conspiracy theorist exclaims impatiently, "Who said anything about false IDs? We know what seats they were sitting in! Their presence is well documented!" And so the whole loop starts again. "Well, why aren't they on the passenger lists?"
"You numbskull! They assumed the identities of other passengers!" And so on...

Finally, out of sheer fascination with this circular method of creative delusion , the rational sceptic will allow them to get away with this loop, in order to move on to the next question, and see what further delights await us in the unraveling of this marvelously stupid story.

"Uh, how come their passports survived fiery crashes that completely incinerated the planes and all the passengers? " The answer of course is that its just one of those strange co-incidences, those little quirks of fate that do happen from time to time. You know, like the same person winning the lottery four weeks in a row. The odds are astronomical, but these things do happen...

This is another favourite deductive method of the conspiracy theorist. The "improbability drive" , in which they decide upon a conclusion without any evidence whatsoever to support it, and then continually speculate a series of wildly improbable events and unbelievable co-incidences to support it, shrugging off the implausibility of each event with the vague assertion that sometimes the impossible happens (just about all the time in their world). There is a principle called "Occam's razor" which suggests that in the absence of evidence to the contrary, the simplest explanation is most likely to be correct. Conspiracy theorists hate Occam's razor.

Having for the sake of amusement, allowed them to get away with with the silly story of the 19 invisible Arabs, we move on to the question of how they are supposed to have taken over the planes.

Hijacking a plane is not an easy thing to do. Hijacking it without the pilot being able to alert ground control is near impossible. The pilot has only to punch in a four digit code to alert ground control to a hijacking. Unconcerned with the awkward question of plausibility, the conspiracy buffs maintain that on that Sept 11, the invisible hijackers took over the plane by the rather crude method of threatening people with boxcutters and knives, and spraying gas (after they had attached their masks, obviously), but somehow took control of the plane without the crew first getting a chance to punch in the hijacking code. Not just on one plane, but on all four. At this point in the tale, the conspiracy theorist is again forced to call upon the services of the improbability drive.

So now that our incredibly lucky hijackers have taken control of the planes, all four pilots fly them with breath taking skill and certainty to their fiery end, all four pilots unflinching in their steely resolve for a swift meeting with Allah. Apart from their psychotic hatred of "our freedoms" , it was their fanatical devotion to Islam which enabled them to summon up the iron will to do this. Which is strange, because according to another piece of hearsay peddled by the conspiracy buffs, these guys actually went out drinking and womanizing the night before their great martyrdom, even leaving their Korans in the bar -really impeccable Islamic behavior - and then got up at 5am the next morning to pull off the greatest covert operation in history. This also requires us to believe that they were even clear headed enough to learn how to fly the huge planes by reading flight manuals in Arabic in the car on the way to the airport. We know this because they supposedly left the flight manuals there for us to find.

It gets better. Their practical training had allegedly been limited to Cessnas and flight simulators, but this was no barrier to the unflinching certainty with which they took over the planes and skillfully guided them to their doom. If they are supposed to have done their flight training with these tools, which would be available just about anywhere in the world, its not clear why they would have decided to risk blowing their cover to US intelligence services by doing the training in Florida, rather than somewhere in the Middle East, but such reasoning is foreign to the foggy world of the conspiracy theorist , too trapped in the constant rotation of the mental fruit loop to make their unsubstantiated fabrications seem even semi-believable.

Having triumphantly established a circular delusion in support of the mythical Arabs, the conspiracy theorist now confronts the difficult question of why there's nothing left of the planes. Anybody who has seen the endlessly replayed footage of the second plane going into the WTC will realize that the plane was packed with explosives. Planes do not and cannot blow up into nothing in that manner when they crash.

Did the mythical Arabs also haul a huge heap of explosives on board, and mange to deploy them in such a manner that they went off in the exact instant of the crash, completely vapourizing the plane? Even this is a little difficult for the conspiracy theorist, who at this point decides that its easier to invent new laws of physics in order to keep the delusion rolling along.

There weren't any explosives. It wasn't an inside job. The plane blew up into nothing from its exploding fuel load! Remarkable! Sluggishly combustible jet fuel which is basically kerosine,and which burns at a maximum temperature of around 800 C has suddenly taken on the qualities of a ferociously explosive demolition agent, vapourizing 65 tons of aircraft into a puff of smoke. Never mind that a plane of that size contains around 15 tons of steel and titanium, of which even the melting points are about double that of the maximum combustion temperature of kerosine - let alone the boiling point - which is what would be required to vapourize a plane. And then there's about 50 tons of aluminium to be accounted for. In excess of 15lbs of metal for each gallon of kerosine.

For the conspiracy theorist, such inconvenient facts are vaguely dismissed as "mumbo jumbo". This convenient little phrase is their answer to just about anything factual or logical. Like a conjurer pulling a rabbit out of a hat, they suddenly become fanatically insistent about the devastating explosive qualities of kerosine, something hitherto completely unknown to science, but just discovered by them, this very minute. Blissfully ignoring the fact that never before or since in aviation history has a plane vapourized into nothing from an exploding fuel load, the conspiracy theorist relies upon Hollywood images, where the effects are are always larger than life, and certainly larger than the intellects of these cretins.
"Its a well known fact that planes blow up into nothing on impact." they state with pompous certainty. "Watch any Bruce Willis movie."
"Care to provide any documented examples? If it's a well known fact, then presumably this well known fact springs from some kind of documentation - other than Bruce Willis movies ?"
At this point the mad but cunning eyes of the conspiracy theorist will narrow as they sense the corner that they have backed themselves into, and plan their escape by means of another stunning backflip.
"Ah, but planes have never crashed into buildings before, so there's no way of telling." they counter with a sly grin.
Well, actually planes have crashed into buildings before and since, and not vapourized into nothing.
"But not big planes, with that much fuel ", they shriek in hysterical denial.
Or that much metal to vapourize.
"Yes but not hijacked planes!"
"Are you suggesting that whether the crash is deliberate or accidental affects the combustion qualities of the fuel?"
"Now you're just being silly".

Although collisions with buildings are rare, planes frequently crash into mountains, streets, other aircraft, nosedive into the ground,or have bombs planted aboard them, and don't vapourize into nothing. What's so special about a tower that's mostly glass? But by now, the conspiracy theorist has once again sailed happily around the fruit loop. "Its a well documented fact that planes explode into nothing on impact."

Effortlessly weaving back and forth between the position that its a "well known fact" and that "its never happened before, so we have nothing to compare it to", the conspiracy theorist has now convinced themselves ( if not too many other people) that the WTC plane was not loaded with explosives, and that the instant vapourization of the plane in a massive fireball was the same as any other plane crash you might care to mention. Round and round the fruit. loop...

But the hurdles which confront the conspiracy theorist are many, and they are now forced to implement even creative more uses for the newly discovered shockingly destructive qualities of kerosine. They have to explain how the Arabs also engineered the elegant veritcal collapse of both the WTC towers, and for this awkward fact the easiest counter is to simply deny that it was a controlled demolition, and claim that the buildings collapsed from fire caused by the burning kerosine.

For this, its necessary to sweep aside the second law of thermodynamics and propose kerosine which is not only impossibly destructive, but also recycles itself for a second burning in violation of the law of degradation of energy. You see, it not only consumed itself in a sudden catastrophic fireball , vapourizing a 65 ton plane into nothing, but then came back for a second go, burning at 2000C for another hour at the impact point, melting the skyscraper's steel like butter. And while it was doing all this it also poured down the elevator shafts, starting fires all through the building. When I was at school there was a little thing called the entropy law which suggests that a given portion of fuel can only burn once, something which is readily observable in the real world, even for those who didn't make it to junior high school science. But this is no problem for the conspiracy theorist. Gleefullym, they claim that a few thousand gallons of kerosine is enough to
: completely vapourize a 65 ton aircraft
: have enough left over to burn ferociously enough for over an hour at the impact point and melt steel ( melting point about double the maximum combustion temperature of the fuel )
: still have enough left over to pour down the elevator shafts and start similarly destructive fires all through the building.

This kerosine really is remarkable stuff! How chilling to realize that those kerosine heaters we had in the house when I was a kid were deadly bombs, just waiting to go off. One false move and the entire street might have been vapourized. And never again will I take kerosine lamps out camping. One moment you're there innocently holding the lamp - the next - kapow! Vapourized into nothing along with with the rest of the camp site, and still leaving enough of the deadly stuff to start a massive forest fire.

These whackos are actually claiming that the raging inferno allegedly created by the miraculously recycling, and impossibly hot burning kerosine melted or at least softened the steel supports of the skyscraper. Oblivious to the fact that the smoke coming from the WTC was black, which indicates an oxygen starved fire -therefore, not particularly hot, they trumpet an alleged temperature in the building of 2000 C , without a shred of evidence to support this curious suspension of the laws of physics.

Not content with this ludicrous garbage, they then contend that as the steel frames softened, they came straight down instead of buckling and twisting and falling sideways.

Since they're already re-engineered the combustion qualities of jet fuel, violated the second law of thermodynamics, and re-defined the structural properties of steel, why let a little thing like the laws of gravity get in the way?

The tower fell in a time almost identical to that of a free falling object, dropped from that height, meaning that its physically impossible for it to have collapsed by the method of the top floors smashing through the lower floors. But according to the conspiracy theorists, the laws of gravity were temporarily suspended on the morning of Sept 11. It appears that the evil psychic power of those dreadful Arabs knew no bounds. Even after they were dead, they were able, by the power of their evil spirits, to force down the tower at a speed physically impossible under the laws of gravity, had it been meeting any resistance from fireproofed steel structures originally designed to resist many tons of hurricane force wind as well as the impact of a Boeing passenger jet straying off course.

Clearly, these conspiracy nuts never did their science homework at school, but did become extremely adept at inventing tall tales for why.
"Muslim terrorists stole my notes, sir"
"No miss, the kerosine heater blew up and vapourized everything in the street, except for my passport."
"You see sir, the schoolbus was hijacked by Arabs who destroyed my homework because they hate our freedoms."

Or perhaps they misunderstood the term "creative science" and mistakenly thought that coming up with such rubbish was in fact, their science homework.

The ferocious heat generated by this ghastly kerosine was, according to the conspiracy theorists, the reason why so many of the WTC victims can't be identified. DNA is destroyed by heat. (Although 2000 C isn't really required, 100C will generally do the job.) This is quite remarkable, because according to the conspiracy theorist, the nature of DNA suddenly changes if you go to a different city.

That's right! If you are killed by an Arab terrorist in NY, your DNA will be destroyed by such temperatures. But if you are killed by an Arab terrorist in Washington DC, your DNA will be so robust that it can survive temperatures which completely vapourize a 65 ton aircraft.

You see, these loonies have somehow concocted the idea that the missile which hit the pentagon was not a missile at all, but one of the hijacked planes. And to prove this unlikely premise, they point to a propaganda statement from the Bush regime, which rather stupidly claims that all but one of the people aboard the plane were identified from the site by DNA testing, even though nothing remains of the plane. The plane was vapourized by the fuel tank explosion maintain these space loonies, but the people inside it were all but one identified by DNA testing.

So there we have it. The qualities of DNA are different, depending upon which city you're in, or perhaps depending upon which fairy story you're trying to sell at any particular time.

This concoction about one of the hijacked planes hitting the Pentagon really is a howler. For those not familiar with the layout of the Pentagon, it consists of 5 rings of building, each with a space inbetween. Each ring of building is about 30 to 35 ft deep, with a similar amount of open space between it and the next ring. The object which penetrated the Pentagon went in at about a 45 degree angle, punching a neat circular hole of about a 12 ft diameter through three rings ( six walls).A little later a section of wall about 65 ft wide collapsed in the outer ring. Since the plane which the conspiracy theorists claim to be responsible for the impact had a wing span of 125 ft and a length of 155 ft, and there was no wreckage of the plane, either inside or outside the building, and the lawns outside were still smooth and green enough to play golf on, this crazy delusion is clearly physically impossible.

But hey, we've already disregarded the combustion qualities of jet fuel, the normal properties of common building materials, the properties of DNA, the laws of gravity and the second law of thermodynamics, so what the hell - why not throw in a little spatial impossibility as well ? I would have thought that the observation that a solid object cannot pass through another solid object without leaving a hole at least as big as itself is reasonably sound science. But to the conspiracy theorist, this is "mumbo jumbo". It conflicts with the delusion that they're hooked on, so it "must be wrong" although trying to get then to explain exactly how it could be wrong is a futile endeavour.

Conspiracy theorists fly into a curious panic whenever the Pentagon missile is mentioned.They nervously maintain that the plane was vapourized by it's exploding fuel load and point to the WTC crash as evidence of this behavior. (That's a wonderful fruit loop.) Like an insect which has just been sprayed, running back and forth in its last mad death throes, they first argue that the reason the hole is so small is that plane never entered the wall, having blown up outside, and then suddenly backflip to explain the 250 ft deep missile hole by saying that the plane disappeared all the way into the building, and then blew up inside the building (even though the building shows no sign of such damage). As for what happened to the wings - here's where they get really creative. The wings snapped off and folded into the fuselage which then carried them into the building, which then closed up behind the plane like a piece of meat.

When it suits them, they'll also claim that the plane slid in on its belly, (ignoring the undamaged lawn) while at the same time citing alleged witnesses to the plane diving steeply into the building from an "irrecoverable angle." How they reconcile these two scenarios as being compatible is truly a study in stupidity.

Once they get desperate enough, you can be sure that the UFO conspiracy stuff will make an appearance. The Arabs are in league with the Martians. Space aliens snatched the remains of the Pentagon plane and fixed most of the hole in the wall, just to confuse people. They gave the Arabs invisibility pills to help get them onto the planes. Little green men were seen were seen talking to Bin Laden a few weeks prior to the attacks.

As the nation gears up to impeach the traitor Bush, and stop his perpetual oil war, it's not helpful to have these idiots distracting from the process by spreading silly conspiracy theories about mythical Arabs, stories which do nothing but play into the hands of the extremist Bush regime.

At a less serious time, we might tolerate such crackpots with amused detachment, but they need to understand that the treachery that was perpetrated on Sept 11, and the subsequent war crimes committed in "retaliation" are far too serious for us to allow such frivolous self indigence to go unchallenged.
Those who are truly addicted to conspiracy delusions should find a more appropriate outlet for their paranoia.

Its time to stop loony conspiracy theories about Sept 11.

by Barry Noble
( barrynoble40 [at] hotmail.com ) Saturday Feb 8th, 2003 3:35 PM
Theories about Sept 11 are SO last centuary...

Look out for a whole new theory from Shrub & Co relating to the quote "Specific and credible intelligence that a terrorist attack is due against US citizens to coincide with the end of Ramadan."

Looks like Shrub & Co have backed themselves into a corner and now the only way to get the semblance of national or international support for an Illegal, immoral and unjustified war against Iraq is to murder/sacrifice a few more US citizens thus justifying a unilateral attack against the alledged perpertraitors.

The tactics used by Shurb and his greedy oil grabbing cohorts are so tranparent that I find it incredible that more people can't see how they are being manipulated and lied to by Shrub & Co with the collusion of the US media.

WAKE UP people of America... WAKE UP people of the world... Don't let one man's greed and insanity (Shrub) take us down the one way street to world war III.

And please don't buy the line of Shrub & Co "We will go to war to secure peace"... What kind of George Orwells 1984 doublespeak is that?

Start putting the pices of the puzzle together to get the full picture and stop buying into the daily propaganda that's being fed to you via TV and newspapers.

Impeach Shrub & CO NOW... Before it's too late.

Barry Noble.

by this thing here
Saturday Feb 8th, 2003 3:37 PM
why does people having conspiracy theories about such and such put you on the defensive?

if not that, then why do you have a problem with it? why do you let it bother you...
by Dolphin
Saturday Feb 8th, 2003 4:12 PM
If you read the article more carefully, the answers are in there.
by greenslime
Saturday Feb 8th, 2003 4:28 PM
mite as well spin the dam thing around and see where it lands...but why presume the official story is hoakey? that's where some folks spin off the head, y'know?...oh right, men in caves(obl was worth 200mil, and slept in a cave, NOT!)
the entire operation, if viewed&read with an open-mind can lend credence to the theory that the EFFECTS of the attack were a Fluke! and nothing more. the planning was?..oh yeah, taking flying lessons..now that's quite a complicated attack, that only an organized outfit like the cia/fbi/brits, and or the usadmin could pull off...ookay!!
not bad stire, tho.. or is it something else?
by Gerard Holmgren
( labrams [at] tampabay.rr.com ) Saturday Feb 8th, 2003 4:41 PM
Wish I'd said that! Great article and right on the money. There is such an organized propaganda campaign propping up the conspiracy mill of the Bush Regime -- the money for it alone boggles the mind, while protests nation-wide are ignored by the press. Maybe people aren't as blind as the current regime thinks, eh? I haven't met anybody buying the propaganda, not one person anywhere, not one.
by heavensangel
Saturday Feb 8th, 2003 4:49 PM
With what's just happened to the UK's 'intelligence' dossier turning out to be mostly made up from a 12-year old grad students paper relating to facts that were real in 1991... I think that the whole web of lies being spun by the Bush regime and regurgitated by his lap dog Blair are about to come undone...
by adrianian
Saturday Feb 8th, 2003 7:38 PM
Excellent article , all things considered. But impeaching a flunky like bush or blair will accomplish relatively little and might even be desired at a later by the original conspirators. Does a barely bright Dubya own the media , absolutely essential in perpertrating and maintaining a phony ' terrorist attack ' on "America's way of life"? Does he [ or daddy ] control international finance , which will be in the same hands long after Iraq has been subdued? I think there is a lot more involved than the delusions of a wannabe ' Great Presidente ' or the naked greed of oil barons , though both would be useful to tyrannical minds with dreams of world domination -- for Godly reasons no doubt. Keep your eyes on israel. They may need to make a land grab ---- for their own protection of course.
by Wayne Hall
Saturday Feb 8th, 2003 9:53 PM
An impeachment of Bush or even Blair would be a great step forward and to say that it might even be welcomed at a later stage by "the real masters of the game" ignores its value as a transitional objective and as a goal which can be valuable for OUR purposes.

An impeachment would give a boost to the presently faltering process of European integration, strengthen support for the euro as an alternative reserve currency (even as THE reserve currency) and make it more possible for there to be an exchange of roles between the United States and the European Union on the world stage, thus making feasible many changes for the better which can only be dreams today.

The fact that this is something that some of the "masters of the game" may also want is not in itself a reason for rejecting it.

by Jane
Thursday Feb 13th, 2003 9:07 AM
James Bamford's most recent book "Body of Secrets", includes in it's appendix, a recently discovered copy of the 'OPERATION NORTHWOODS" proposal, which was reviewed and approved by all the Joint Chiefs, including Gen. Lyman Lemnitzer back during the JFK administration.
The plan called for staging airplane hijackings, bombings and other terrorist acts - then blaming those actions on Fidel Castro's government in Cuba.
"Northwoods" openly discusses the probable deaths of thousands of Americans, and the manner in which those deaths might be exploited to generate sufficient fear and hysteria, to buttress popular support for an invasion of Cuba.
9/11 looks to me llike they just pulled the old "NORTHWOODS" plan out of mothballs, and updated it to focus hysteria against a new designated "enemy": Islamic terrorists.
When one considers that bin Laden and his operation were co-operative CIA assets in the Afghan war and in the Balkans, the pieces fit together quite naturally.

by Kevin Hill
( kevhill808 [at] hotmail.com ) Thursday Feb 27th, 2003 12:42 AM
Thia is a really interesting article, however I have some questions that the article hasn't answered. Firstly, I would love to believe that the Bush administration was involved in these attacks, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if they at least had prior knowledge and saw it as an opportunity to progress their ambitions in the Middle East. However, why attack Afghanistan first? If 9/11 was masterminded by the US then why not immediately put the blame at Saddam's door instead of going round the houses via Afghanistn. Surely Bush could have attacked Iraq straight after 9/11. If his administration was behind 9/11 it wouldn't have been difficault to point the blame squarely at Saddam would it?

A colleague of mine has also been researching some of the technical points made, in particular the references to physics and combustability. This is what he found:

"Not sure about the allegations re the Pentagon, but I think the comments about the WTC are crap. The temperature which could be expected are as follows:

Typical hydrocarbon flames reach about 2100 K, but they are incapable of heating an object to that temperature unless the mass of burning gases is great enough to compensate for radiation from the solid or unless the solid is too small (has too little radiating surface) to be of any use in measurably warming a typical calorimeter setup.

Note that 2100K is about 1800 Celsius. I've no idea where 800deg comes from, although I guess it might refer to the spontaneous combustion temp of kerosene, which is about 230 Celsius. This might approximate to 800 in Fahrenheit.

Kerosene, like petrol (or gasoline!) forms an explosive mixture when mixed with air. In fact, so does coal-dust! As for the lack of remains of the aircraft, (I wan't aware that this was an issue, but...) as he points out they are largely aluminium, which is combustible at a relatively low temperature (c.f. the Sheffield during the Falklands). The structure would be shredded as it hit the tower, so the pieces would be generally pretty small. Black smoke is a characteristic of a kerosene fire - any aircraft fire I've ever seen (only on TV, thankfully!) produced lots of it - and the heat of a kerosene fire severely damaged the fuselage of the 737 in the Manchester disaster.

Is he suggesting that the towers were simply demolished? I saw two aircraft fly into them, which could have been faked for the TV audience, but there were sufficient people on the ground who witnessed the event. I cannot believe that they were all duped!

The complicity of the US administration is possibly feasible, but I think it is difficult to escape the conclusion that most events were substantially as reports, who-ever was the culprit. I think that some of the allegations I have commented on above seriously weaken the overall case!"

There, from a materials perspective it does appear that the description of the events of 9/11 were perfectly feasible. Yes, I agree that there could also have been a controlled demolition, but two planes DID crash into the WTC. This itself raises the question of the need to demolish the WTC in a controlled explosion. Wouldn't the fact that terrorists had flown two planes into it have been justification enough to Bush?

Finally, I want to point out that I'm not pro-Bush. I believe he rigged the US election and is in the pocket of the energy interests. He is probably, because of his power, the most dangerous man on the planet and I would love to see him and his cronies revealed before the world as criminals. The US hegemony already exists and needs to be stopped.

I've raised some issues here and I'd like some comments, coherent and reasoned if you don't mind.

Ta

RedKev

by troy
Monday Jul 9th, 2007 2:52 PM
yea redkev, good question. Dont think people who post nonsense like this are actually capable or rational thought though. HERE is another one question. So are you guys telling me that the bush administration with it's vast resources is able to get the media to not cover this conspiracy theory junk, as well as rig the towers with explosives (yet no one saw them. or where they all in on it??) YET they couldn't plant WMD in iraq so as to justify the war?

People believe in conspiracy theories because rather the admitting the world is a crazy place and it takes just one unimportant person to kill a president, or fly a plane into a building, they instead would rather believe their is one malevolent force controlling everything hence the world is more understandable and in a weird way this comforts them.
by Sark
Tuesday Sep 15th, 2009 10:21 AM
Are you really suggesting that that the conspiracy is that terrorist took down these buildings? So your rationale is not the conspiracy theory?

They were not on any security cameras?? Have you seen the video of the hijackers just before they got on the plane? IT was all over the news. Did you just pull all this right out of your ass?? I was going to go ahead and break this apart one at a time, but it’s not even worth it. Your obviously one big crack pot. Look anybody can go write up anything they want on the internet. Like you, just pulling things out of the air the way you have. But no matter what you write, it doesn’t make it a fact. Just nonsense.
by Mark
Tuesday Jan 5th, 2010 1:31 AM
In 2006 Americans spent $44.00 on porn per capita, which doesn't really seem like much. But, hey, we are all human right? Nothing to be ashamed of...

However, in 2002 Americans spent $0.05 per capita (1/880th of that amount) investigating the deaths of 2,794 of their fellow citizens, victims of the worlds largest terror attack

And despite all the unanswered questions, most, seem content to live with that fact.



A) War Cost Since 2001: $950,190 Mil -- 63,346x more than 911 investigation
B) Homeland Security 2010: $42,700 Mil -- 2,846x more than 911 investigation
C) Tarp: $700,000 Mil -- 46,666x more than 911 investigation
D) Cash for Clunkers: $3,000 Mil -- 200x more than 911 investigation
E) FDA 2010: $3,000 Mil -- 200x more than 911 investigation
F) Immigration: $364 Mil -- 24x more than 911 investigation
G) Inauguration of Barack Obama: $170 Mil -- 11x more than 911 investigation



1) Challenger Investigation: 7 dead - $100 Mil -- 6.6x more than 911 investigation
2) Columbia Shuttle Investigation: 7 dead, 50 Mil + 305 Mil to pick up debris -- 23.6x more than 911 investigation
3) White Water Investigation: 6 years, $50 Mil -- 3.3x more than 911 investigation
4) Warren Commission (JFK): 1 dead, Unlimited Budget, final $32 Mil (adj) -- 2x more than 911 investigation
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
5) 911 Attacks: 20 months, 2749 dead, initial budget $3 Mil, final $15 Mil
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
6) Watergate: $8 Mil -- 1/2 of 911 investigation
7) Lewinsky Investigation: 6 months, $7 Mil -- 1/2 of 911 investigation
8) Current Financial Crises Investigation: None


Yup, who cares. Nothing to be ashamed of.
by Mark
Tuesday Jan 5th, 2010 1:48 AM
As any thinking person knows, Occams razor does not apply when there is suspected intentional deception going on.

It would be like taking what you see in a magic show at face value. "Obviously magic is real!"

Another example is viewing your opponents goals in chess as what is "immediately evident".

Do you think that our intelligence agencies ignore deception and accept appearances as reality?

Seriously, do you actually think your Occams Razor argument holds water???

Santa must be real -- look at all the presents!

What a joke.