SF Bay Area Indymedia indymedia
About Contact Subscribe Calendar Publish Print Donate

Hundreds of thousands against U.S. imperialist aggression in SF
by bert
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 5:14 AM
On January 18th, as many as 300,000 took to the streets in San Francisco to oppose war.
plazacrowd.jpg
plazacrowd.jpg

In a highly energetic demonstration, Bay Area residents and others from around the region let it be known that they do not support a massive escalation in the U.S. governement's aggression against the Iraqi people. A radical contingent broke from the permitted march and reclaimed the streets of San Francisco's financial district.
§Anarchists and others prepare to reclaim the streets
by bert Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 5:14 AM
breakawayfront.jpg
breakawayfront.jpg

§Breakaway march heads downtown
by bert Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 5:14 AM
breakawayferry.jpg
breakawayferry.jpg

§INS targeted ...
by bert Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 5:14 AM
ins.jpg
ins.jpg

§Starbucks
by bert Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 5:14 AM
starbucks.jpgo63877.jpg
starbucks.jpgo63877.jpg

§Citicorp/British Embassy
by bert Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 5:14 AM
citicorp.jpg
citicorp.jpg

§Citicorp/British Embassy
by bert Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 5:14 AM
citicorp2.jpg
citicorp2.jpg

§Viva Zapata!
by bert Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 5:14 AM
chroniclecorner.jpg
chroniclecorner.jpg

§Yuppee motorists delayed
by bert Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 5:14 AM
5thstreet.jpg
5thstreet.jpg

§Corporate media targeted
by bert Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 5:14 AM
kiosksdown.jpg
kiosksdown.jpg

§...
by bert Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 5:14 AM
kiosksdown2.jpg
kiosksdown2.jpg


Comments  (Hide Comments)

by bov
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 5:56 AM
excellent . .. . great work . . .
by Realist
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 6:04 AM
The grafitti will be gone, windows replaced and newsboxes uprighted by the morning, but the images of destruction will be used to damn the entire peace movement for some time to come.
by [Another] Realist
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 6:19 AM
Time for corporate speech to wither. In a once-beautiful city, now scarred with the scourge of "naming rights" and endless advertising. Corporate speech has taken over SF. Graffitti on the towers of the corporate oppressors is not only fair turnabout, it's free speech reclaimed!

The real patriots of America can clearly see the symbolism in the targeting of the INS, just like they recall the Boston Tea Party.
by Bigger Picture
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 6:23 AM
Sometimes it's necessay to cut off a finger to spare a hand!
by Fool
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 6:29 AM
Funny, thats exactly what John Ashcroft says about your Constitutional rights. Thanks for giving him more ammunition, asshole.
by Silas
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 6:47 AM
Hell yeah, we're all pissed at the way the corporate media and supranational banks are fucking up the world. But a few hundred people indulging that frustration by breaking windows and newspaper stands could ruin what hundreds of thousands of people attempted to say peacefully. Was it worth it?

Now the media in Des Moines will have an excuse to report on violent protests and marginalize the awesome day's accomplishments.

What the revolution needs most is unity -- unity among all of us in SF, and unity between us in SF and those in Des Moines. How do we get that unity? Discipline. The actions of a few hundred today, while understandable, probably hurt us.
by Your'e Next!
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 6:50 AM
You're next, faggot! I'm personally comin' to get, yah, faggot!!!

You're dead, "Bushy Boy"!!!!!!!!!!!
by Reconsidered
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 6:56 AM
"Fool", you're point is well taken in retrospect.

Not to justify my preceding position, it's merely an explanation for an action, nothing more.

I humbly yield to the wiser level.
by Trent Latte
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 7:05 AM
steamed milk in one cup. black coffee in the other. it's your job to integrate them!

The Trent Latte. Coming soon to a racially pure Starbucks near you.
by a
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 7:25 AM
the 'peace' movement serves no purpose if it is not realistic about acheiving its goals, which presumably aim to stop war. given the overwhelming forces of power operating in this historical situation- military, economic, etc - the bush administration will remain relatively undeterred by the 'peace movement' in making war around the world, from Colombia to Afghanistan to Iraq, and possibly even North Korea. realistically, the strategy of the ruling class will be to tolerate protest, flaunt protest as evidence of democratic expression, and emphasize protest in opposition to the intolerance of the enemy's regime. media and government will encourage protest representatives to step forward, hand-picking acceptable and moderate voices, voices which seek to effect change in a lawful and well-behaved manner.

the mundane form of protest will repeat itself in mass spectacle as it further embraces lofty spirituality, one which believes inherent goodness and persistence will prevail, that the movement is growing in unidentifiable ways, a collective epiphany within our grasp. soon, pepsi will host the next woodstock. we bobble around inside protest pens, smiling with placards, boasting our individuality: "Fiddle Players Against War!" "Soccer Moms Against War!" "Ivy League Students Against War!" "Black Students in Private Universities Against War!" Strangers with megaphones direct our movement in the general spirit of paternity. the day will end and we will obsess over our numbers:
"the police said 30,000. no way! it must've been more like 100,000. did you see how many blocks we stretched? definitely 100,000."

peace movement: the goal is to stop war.
the forces of power we are up against: a capitalist media oligarchy, a government willing and anxious to kill for oil, and a police-state, bolstered by intelligence-gathering, which portrays itself as brother of the 911 hero, and justifies its overwhelming presence with warnings of terrorist attack.

direct action, like that which occurred in SF today, serves the dual purpose of inspiring thousands upon thousands who have become utterly disillusioned by the solemn realization of powerlessness. when two-thousand people march together in a situation involving certain risks, and write their spray-painted messages on the doors of Citicorp and the INS building, using corporate newstands to smash windows, i appreciate their implicit rage. i see an indication of momentum, boiling water's first bubble.

let's not be so comfortably righteous about our participation in protest. people around the world are suffering and dying for very stupid reasons, a process in some cases caused, and most cases exacerbated by our government. living inside this beast, we remain mostly oblivious to the shrewd violence of capitalism and undemocratic regimes.
maybe we believe that once 'the message gets out' to the american people, the american people will swell in opposition, thereby leading to some formal democratic procedure, like resignation or impeachment. even if such an unlikely event were to occur, ruling-class ritual would perpetuate the status-quo.
president cheney, do you intend to reverse or accelerate george w bush's war on iraq?
clearly, we should not direct our anger at the bush administration so much as we should at the world that makes the bush administration plausible.
we will realize that the priorities of capitalism conflict with our compassionate instinct, and that behind the banks of capitalism stand massive armies.
we will realize that whenever we can, we should pelt the banks, chip and weather the walls, in the hope that one day we will knock them all down, and the men with guns will realize- like they did in Argentina a year ago - that they are employed to protect a band of slimy criminals against the rage of millions.

the pivotal revolutionary moment will not be realized lawfully, nor will it be realized peacefully. if the true power of the state is actually seriously threatened by protest and rebellion, the state will respond with overwhelming force. if Kent State shocked you, imagine how the united states government would respond to people using direct action against Boeing or Mobil or Fox media or Wall Street.

the more the media and politicians condemn the actions, the more we should realize their success and recognized threat. the ruling class relies upon representatives of the peace movement who are willing to cooperate with police and compromise the form and vitality of the protest by obtaining restrictive permits.

the peace movement will really need to embrace a strong diversity of tactics if it wishes to inspire the feeling that we are not only everywhere, but we are a threat everywhere.

our movement against this war should be our declaration of war against capitalism and the state.
otherwise, we will be left with peace politicians and sneaky wars and shady bloodshed and delusion. delusion!

from the east coast, i shout "Solidarity!" to those who participated in the break-away march in san francisco.
by Thinker
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 7:41 AM
Many earnest and intelligent young people in the 60's and 70's declared "war against capitalism and the state" - many of them are still in prison. They became deluded about the level of support for violent actions and underestimated the size and strength of the political and corporate machinery they oppose. Today one Starbucks was vandalized - it will be open again tomorrow. There are thousands of others just like it, as well millions of other similar businesses that are owned, operated and frequented by tens of millions of people.

You may want to learn from the mistakes of the past. Violence will get you arrested, condemned and warehoused. Marching, petitioning, speaking out, voting and even running for office will meet with more success in the long run.
by john
( finwithwork [at] yahoo.com ) Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 8:00 AM
I took part in the break away march and had a great time taking back are streets and fucking up what we could. Violence against people i think is to much but violence against property really harms no one especially when its starbucks or citibank or anyone of the other places we hit up. The rest of us don't feel like sitting around and waiting for the bad things to happen we set out to outright stop them. Sorry you may not like or methods but we will be back...as none of us even got arrested or even any major media coverage....
by RatmRebel
( fs_rebel [at] hotmail.com ) Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 8:14 AM
Petitions arent doing shit, as far as I can see, we are going to war. National guard's going to, so whos gonna defend our nation now?
by rusl from Canada
( autosaurus [at] tao.ca ) Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 8:44 AM
"direct action, like that which occurred in SF today"

What direct action is that? A symbolic 'direct action' to reclaim the streets? A symbolic 'direct action' to spraypaint a window?

I take offence to the word direct action being thrown around so carelessly. To me a direct action is a political action which directly acheives the political goals to which it sets out. Stopping the war being the said goal then no direct action is possible through linguistic logic: the war isn't even here so it is already stopped. Or the war is already here (they continually bomb Iraq on average of once every two days) in a far away place you can't reach. Sure direct action is a vague concept because this is all a complex system.

But how is smashing a window direct action? What does that directly do? It means somebody tommorrow will get paid to fix it and maybe some various symbolic things will happen if people take pictures or see it broken. The window costs a few hundred dollars at most? Sure you are costing a naughty corporation a few hundred dollars (probably less - they have insurance certainly) that is hardly economic warfare in a direct action sense, only symbolism will make that seem worthwhile.

Seriously. I was keen on reading these reports so dramatically described on the front page "the black block can do what it wants"

C'mon black bloc. Be more creative. Be more expensive. Be more silly. Don't fall into habits. How do you think we got millions of people duped into supporting a war in the first place: ignorance and habit!

The 'good' protestors cost basically the same amount as you do. They use up police funds in staffing which is very expensive. Also their direct action of closing the street to cars prevents a certain amount of oil consumption which is 'directly' just what we want in our fight against oil war.

If I were you I would use more paint and break less glass. Paint is symbolic but it is more directly symbolic. While glass windows are only private property it does take some pretty physical agression to break them - the are sharp and cut you. Not evil like bombing Iraq but also not really that great to break. Symbolically it also brings up images of Nazis breaking glass. Maybe ropes tying up the financial district or pies thrown at cops or even better jack hammer and remove ashphalt for oily cars and replace with plants. Or maybe just squat a building amid the protests - that's always useful for something. Also do things less cliched than windows, less 'illegal' and more confusing so they may or may not be illegal - the cop hasn't thought of it yet and so will probably ignore you rather than arrest you.

Also directly build community. This is direct action that is more important than paint or glass or marches. Community doesn't fight war but talks about things and realises war is stupid because that is the obviousl conclusion when talking. The small breakaway actions are a good idea because smaller decentralised groups are more democratic and more fun also.

That is my advice from Canada. You march however did seem more interesting than ours in Vancouver but all in all nobodies perfect so I'm proud of doing it even if it was somewhat boring. I didn't follow any of my advice above for any march thing today. Last night however we did have an excellent naked bike ride against war with only 35 people but it is January and kind of frosty at midnight...

Also don't get so defensive about the 'you ruined the peace movement with your invonvienient photo op'.... Those people are a lost cause anyway and not worth arguing with. They will see the stupidity of caring about TV corpoTMedia one day on there own hopefully and until then let them right there letters to the editor.

In solidarity.
by you idiots
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 9:07 AM
how can you people preach about NON-VIOLENCE and ANTI-DESTRUCTION when YOU ARE VIOLENT AND DESTROY PROPERTY?!?!
by Pros`....
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 9:18 AM
demolish like Pros`.
by catpower69
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 9:23 AM
'The grafitti will be gone, windows replaced and newsboxes uprighted by the morning', but the spirits of the people who particapated and the people around the world (who understand that the wars will never stop until capitalism and colonialism dies)will be raised up. And that is something that will not swept away like so many shards of glass. . Even in America, things break.
by Xylem Tavar Galadhon
( msgill [at] socrates.berkeley.edu ) Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 9:35 AM
I have sympathy with various sides in this discussion and "a's" writing is well-stated -- but i do believe Rusl offers the most incisive and cogent analysis of the whole.. thanks for posting it.

pax,
XTG
by .
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 10:02 AM
Window repair people have to be paid. Insurance companys have to pony up and be paid. Sort of like pot-hole stimulus in reverse except this time paying the window repair person rather than the car mechanic. The tearing stuff up caused by a few people does not and cannot nullify the sentiments of thousands of other people nor can it derail a movement just like a handful of people cannot elect a senator. Any half-wit blowhard that tries to use these incidents to dicredit a world wide movement is 1. Desperate and 2. Dumb and 3. In Denial.




by hello
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 10:08 AM
Dear "Peace" Movement,

Many of you are protesting for the first time in years. That means you ignore the war and violence that is always going on "in your name."

In the world where we are always working to stop this, we have this thing called "diversity of tactics." It works really well. We didn't force you to come on the breakaway demo OR do anything illegal whatsoever while on your main demo, which we also participated in.

So, we're glad you're here, we hope you stay so we can actually make change and stop all this horror once and for all, but we have to ask that you respect us like we respect you.
by redsam
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 2:28 PM
I took part in the break away march, and it wasn't some mindless action of property destruction. It targetted institutions which are directly involved in the exploitation and suffering of the world population. The destruction of the front of the INS building, over the yells of "no more borders!" was fucking BRILLIANT, and I think will send a great message of solidarity to those families whose members have been "disappeared" by the capitalist state. In fact, as we marched through the financial district, there were many cheers from sympathizers. The only negative thing I could say about the march was that few instances of graffiti on parked cars, but for the most part all property vandalism was targetted at the banks which profit from war and exploitation, and the INS building which has been involved in deportation and dententions of thousands of proletarian immigrants. As long as these direct actions maintain coherent political messages, targeting the basis of capitalist power, then I support them completely and will participate in them.
by cp
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 2:49 PM
news1-18-1.jpg
news1-18-1.jpg

Looking in the tinted windows, about one person in addition to the security guards peered out of the Chronicle building
by cp
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 2:55 PM
news1-18-2.jpg
news1-18-2.jpg

near victoria's secret. The victoria's secret was not damaged.
by Ruby
( sublimepunker69 [at] aol.com ) Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 4:10 PM
I was just talking to a guy who was there at this march. I wanted to go, but I felt for some reason I should. Thos who destroyed property and what not, should be ashamed of themselves. Peaceful marches and protests should NEVER include destroying proerty to make your point. Did those who did that forget what Martin Luthar King has done? They obviously missed that part of histror. I am very much against this war and I dis like the way the govrnemnt works, and hate Bush, but I would never stoop that low, to be on the same level as the government. I am so glad I was no involved wit that march, it is embarrassing they way they represented the Americans who are against the war.
by Singer
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 6:00 PM
Ok. I'm not the type to break windows. It's just not my thing. But I saw that this happened, and where 5 years ago I might have also been just like some of these other comments I've seen -- "HOW CAN YOU PREACH NON-VIOLENCE WHILE DOING THIS!". I gotta say that my heart was actually pretty happy. I fully agree that we need a diversity of tactics. And I fully support targeted property destruction.

Those of you freaking out in disbelief sound like you havn't been doing this that long. If you had, you'd be fully aware of the endless debate within the "movement" about violence and non-violence, especially in relation to property. The actions of those being targeted inflict violence on human beings worldwide on a daily basis.

This is not about showing up for a march, singing a few songs and going home and having tea. Things are really bad out there for a lot of people. Extreme circumstances require extreme action sometimes.

Yeah, MLK himself might not have supported property damage. But with all due respect to the man himself, the Civil Rights Movement was not just MLK.

In diversity is stability. I believe that artful, targeted property damage (the cars yesterday, that was way not cool) is just as important as peaceful marches. And I respect those willing to take the risk.



by jj
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 6:19 PM
why not write on suvs?
suvs = oil = war
by partisan
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 6:34 PM
Targeting cars is destruction of working class people's property. We shouldn't be attacking working class people's property period, only government and corporate property.
by Jordan
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 6:39 PM
Yes, they may be working class, but just because they get minimum wage doesn't mean they shouldn't be targeted for the terrorism SUV's promote. Not-to-mention SUV's are expensive, so they probably get a little more than working class conditions. SUV's are a HUGE reason for this war, and the people who drive them have been told time and time again the dangers of SUV's, but they refuse to accept, as driving a bigger and better car is worth any price, be it human lives or global warming. Not to mention, you could be saving a life by destroying an SUV (they are significantly more likely to flip over from hitting a SINGLE CURVE than a regular car)
by Sean Bell
( sean [at] anti-sheep.com ) Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 6:50 PM
Many groups spend months planning and coordinating these massive civil disobedience events to send a strong clear message to those who exercise corrupt power and wage war on innocent people around the globe.

The destructive actions by those selfish few who find it cool to destroy and damage property, although very well chosen targets worthy of some form of focus, only help to sabotage the movement itself.

It is not only selfish but it lacks understanding of how the corporate media has and will use such tactics against us.

In Seattle, all you heard about and saw on the corporate news were the few who destroyed property. Those images still are used by those who were not there as justification for the brutal tactics used by the police and the exercising of marshal law to control the peace movement.

Those who wish to target these buildings and symbols of corrupt power should do so on their own without helping to drag an entire movement down with them.
by Sphinx
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 6:59 PM
Anyone who is decrying the black bloc's tactics here should check out what was targeted, above all the INS, one of the single most destructive government agencies in the United States. The INS regulates and dominates immigrants, providing the justification for "crack-downs" and border patrols, not to mention the recent illegal detention of thousands of middle-eastern immigrants in the name of fighting terrorism. My girlfriend's family was fucked by the INS when they immigrated from Mexico, thousands of dollars had to payed for a green card they still don't have. I support the black bloc actions against the INS! Give those assholes what they deserve.

by raininaudio
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 7:17 PM
all i know, is that we are trying to create peace through violent actions. wether or not this achieves it is debateable, but even among ourselves, people with the same political goals, there is dispute about our actions. i think the liberals would pull their dreadlocked heads out of their asses and take a moment to unify and peform non-violent actions which get things spoken we would be doing alot better. excuse me, but i don't consider it wise to throw a newspaper stand through a window because you are angry at the orginization. who does that convince? i mean, who the fuck, besides other liberals, is going to hear you out after that?
by lips
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 7:21 PM
As someone already stated, suvs do cost more than many working class folk can afford.
But, even if it is working class folk who own a suv, so what? Just because youre working class youre allowed to do something that people always condemn yuppies for doing? Yeah right. I don't care what class youre in, if youre going around destroying the environment (of course that's not the only reason suvs suck, but its my personal favorite) you should have your suv tagged.
Also, if in fact these suvs were owned by working class folk (which I doubt, its much more typical to see a rich yuppie in downtown san francisco driving and suv than someone whos working class) it was just some paint. Maybe their cars wont look as great (arnt all cars ugly though?) but they still run and function perfectly. I didn't see anyone breaking any suv windows or anything that would stop the suv from working.

by Darksheare
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 7:34 PM
Destroying property, vandalizing shops, and otherwise breaking the law is not peace protesting. That is breaking the law. It is illegal.

Supporting a repressive terrorist regime by giving aid and comfort to the enemy is treason. Saddam Hussein has used chemical weapons on Iran and the Kurds as well as his own people.

It is irresponsible reporting to forget that, or worse, willingly suppress it. And teh so called peace protestors need to learn the meaning of peace before they can demonstrate for it. And they need to learn that one cannot have peace with a nation, person, or government that is adamant in it's insistance to create evil in it's actions and it's purposes.
Saddam has determined his own fate by insisting on continuing his countries path towards supporting terrorism and chaos.
by slim
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 7:50 PM
I wish that some of you crazy coastal people would come down to Arkansas and break some windows. I need some more work to pay these damn bills. Down here everybody is too busy payign pot charges to go out and break windows. yall crack me up though.

Tear it up fellas!!!!!

Keep the fire under their ass!!!!!!!! YEEEHHAAAHHHH!!!
Tear up some stop lights too so everyone will run into each other next time.
by Onimaru
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 7:53 PM
When Vietnam protestors became violent, the government reduced these liberals to a barely existant criminal group. Now the government will have to do it again.
by LADUDE
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 8:00 PM
why not write on suvs?
suvs = oil = war


Why not write on your house:
Heat=oil=war?
by Christopher Day
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 8:32 PM
I'm sure there will be a lot of debate about these actions. I'm not even saying they were neccesarily correct in every detail. Please listen seriously to the various criticisms you get and weigh them in your consideration of future actions.

And ask yourselves the hard questions. Did you do everything you could to prevent your actions from generating divisions within the larger anti-war movement? Did your message get out effectively to as many people as possible or did some things create confusion? Did your decision to do your actions on the same day as the mass legal actions draw attention away from THEIR messages?

Be ruthless in your self-criticism. But know this:
WHAT YOU DID DEFINITELY INSPIRED ME. We can raise the costs of this war (which are measured in more in our ungovernability than in expense of replacing broken glass) and we will need to if we want to stop it. This will not be accomplished by any single tactic and even less by self-righteousness about our choices of tactics. But it will require courage and daring and that is what you showed yesterday. Thank you.
by Susan
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 8:59 PM
Looking at these pictures dismays me. Violence, even towards property, even against horrible corporations or the INS is not helpful to the peace movement. In the 60's and 70's the FBI hired people to instigate this sort of thing, to cause splintering of groups, and to weaken the movement. Those who think they are being clever and making a statement may well be dupes of the FBI. Also, why knock over the Bay Guardian's box, and leave the SF Weekly alone? The Bay Guardian is an independent alternative, the SF weekly is corporate owned.
by Susan
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 8:59 PM
Looking at these pictures dismays me. Violence, even towards property, even against horrible corporations or the INS is not helpful to the peace movement. In the 60's and 70's the FBI hired people to instigate this sort of thing, to cause splintering of groups, and to weaken the movement. Those who think they are being clever and making a statement may well be dupes of the FBI. Also, why knock over the Bay Guardian's box, and leave the SF Weekly alone? The Bay Guardian is an independent alternative, the SF weekly is corporate owned.
by Brian
( a_kvetch [at] hotmail.com ) Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 9:23 PM
I must say that while looking at the pictures I was very pleased, until I got to the broken glass. That is truely pathetic, let's stop a war over-seas by starting one here, brilliant, truely .. however let us at least make an attempt to keep the peace in the peace march, is that so hard to ask? Impossible right?? well perhaps that should tell you that peace marches are too passe, move on, something new has to occur to be able to make a difference.. now these pictures have left a stale taste in my mouth.
by John Mix
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 9:31 PM
I am for a non-violent protest to head off this war build-up. Re-read Ghandi's and MLKing Jr.'s path to change. Demonizing the opponent is the same rationale our elected/selected leaders use to justify war...violent means lead to violent ends. The MEANS change the ENDS. Let's roll up our sleeves and channel our rage into dialogue in this crippled democratic system, into non-violent resistance and truly creative methods of change. Truth-force is real and even the "best democracy money can buy" will be changed by it.
by Safe-Surf COINTELwaatch
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 9:35 PM
The American people can clearly see the symbolism in the targeting of symbols of oppression (such as the INS), just as they recall the Boston Tea Party.

Criticize the oppressors, not those who stand up for the oppressed.
by and it will not create peace.
( stephanee77 [at] yahoo.com ) Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 10:49 PM
This is really sad, gets my heart down, and it WILL NOT bring peace.

Please stop the desrtruction. YOU, WE, ALL OF US, must be the peace we want to see in the world.

Your actions in NO WAY represent me or many tens of thousands at the rally.

Please do not wreak destruction- NOT IN MY NAME

peace, paz, mir...

Melissa
by Realist
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 11:00 PM
Try not to buy in to the corporate media cries of valuing property over human life and dignity. The actions of the breakaway group speak for themselves, not in your name. Don't take it personally.
by Working Class Guy
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 11:09 PM
Thanks! I'm the one who has to clean up the glass and the kiosks and sweep the floors while my corporate bosses hand the bill to their insurance companies, who protect their profits by raising rates for the rest of us.

Yep, the ruling class has to get up pretty early in the morning to put one past you anarchists!
by Amend It
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 11:13 PM
3000 protest non-war in San Fran. 2500 protest in D.C.. 289 million stayed home. It's likely our President will outwit Sadam without bloodshed and outwit the Progressives without doing anything. Can you see the day when the "Bay Area" is the lone pocket of the "Progressive Movement"? LOL
by Frank Sullivan
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 11:17 PM
"Diversity of Tactics" what a crock of shit!! 150,000 (or whatever) people marched in a totally peaceful manner for PEACE. Then a few assholes decide they want to go out and destroy things and they get connected in the public's eye to all of the truly peaceful protestors. If you want to go destroy things, why don't you do it at a time and place that is not even remotely connected to us peaceful protestors. How about on a Tuesday afternoon when business people will be there to see you?? Surely you can gather a handful of thugs and do your damage when we won't be implicated!!!
by Sphinx
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 11:23 PM
Who's saying that property destruction "represents" the 200,000 people at the SF protest? No one has.

However, some complain that these actions will betray the peaceful mission of an anti-war movement. This idea, that property destruction will necessarily represent a movement against war, comes exclusively from the coverage of protest that the boss media provides. Seriously, what miniscule damage to raise a fuss over! And yet it's always highlighted in the papers. Many liberals who are interested in taking the reins of this movement will use that //media-enforced association// to defuse the anger that people feel about this war and government. Therefore, if we are against anyone "representing" this extremely diverse movements we can look at a couple different things.

First, the media will represent us, endlessly. Our actions should constantly undermine and surprise their representation and in some cases confront it.

Second, would-be politicians or careerists, will represent us, in order to add "leadership credentials" to their resume. While they will protest that they are simply acting to end the war in the most amicable way possible, I assure you that the last thing the US government fears is a peaceful, petitioning protest movement. I'm not saying we HAVE to get violent, but we have to take action. Action can be disobedience (not always civil), property destruction, even destruction of the means of war...this terrorist government will only stop, pause and think when business as usual is disrupted. Further, our uncompromising actions against the war will inspire people to take their own actions against the same regime. The boring spectacle of march, protest, march, protest is broken by the amazing energy of freedom and harm to the oppressor (however miniscule).

And to the person who was complaining about which newspaper box was thrown at the window...get over it. The box was seen for its use-value, as a large object to be thrust at an oppressor, superceding its limited intellectual-value of a quaint guide to SF culture. Try to imagine yourself as an Iraqi working class kid stuck in the trenches as US troops invade, do you pause to consider whether or not to chuck the box of the liberal daily at the oncoming tank or break that shit open? True, it's not the same situation here, but we owe it to our fellow humans to weigh their situation with the same amount of gravity that we weigh our own. We've got no country, and as always, our blood flows internationally.

-Sphinx
by Working Class Guy
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 11:37 PM
Thanks, Sphinxter! Now could you help me clean up the mess you guys made? The War Machine must be SO scared of you!
by Sphinx
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 11:55 PM
As someone who cleans up the mess of the ruling class every single day, it wouldn't bother me in the least to clean up the wreckage. Hey, maybe you and I could get together, I'll sweep, you hold the dustpan!!

-SPHINXTER
by Demento
( meetme [at] fifthandmarket.com ) Monday Jan 20th, 2003 12:42 AM
hypocrisy - thy name is smashing windows during a so-called 'antiwar' protest.

by labirinth
( obigdad [at] yahoo.com ) Monday Jan 20th, 2003 12:59 AM
In Seattle, all you heard about and saw on the corporate news were the few who destroyed property. Those images still are used by those who were not there as justification for the brutal tactics used by the police and the exercising of marshal law to control the peace movement. ===>>
I disagree.... seattle was a turning point in world history...Global resistance to corporate rule mounted a creative diversified challange with a three pronged attack: those who stayed within the green line of protest within safe limits, those who were on the edge of it and those daredevils crossing yellow and green lines and into red zones of danger of arrest and prosecution well recognized by seasoned actvists, instinctively the world over. All were equally important to that glorious event, and the world stood up and noticed. A gauntlet was thrown, Fokoyama's end of history doctrine thrown trashed, resistance spirit revived everywhere in the most unlikely of places. Movements sprang, new tactics were born out of that spirit. That is what the world remembers of Seattle however hard the corporate press tries to label it. The WTO was exiled to remote secluded barricaded off limits locations. The global institutions of injustice were put in the defensive and their legitamcy questioned. Their hidden hands forever exposed fixing the books and dipping in the till.

In solidarity

big dad

Cairo, Egypt
by anti-corporate
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 1:19 AM
shut up all you whiney liberal fucks. the direct action carried out was amazing. I'm sure the Starbucks management will hear about this...its another message to TIDY UP YOUR COMPANY...fuckers. And the INS, thow will they take this? haha. This is just the beginning.

by I Work, Too
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 1:52 AM
throw off your chains, and let the message stand
by USA is #1
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 5:20 AM
I challange you to come to Western Colorado and try some of your incredibly stupid pranks. We have an extraciricular program we will use to educate you. Just come on down punk assholes. I would love the oppurtunity to help some of you REALLY dissappear. Out here we shoot, shovel, and shut up when we run into puks like you so come on!

For the real truth go to.....
http://www.FreeRepublic.com
by born here
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 5:59 AM
USA is #1 rogue, terrorist state.
by Kevin
( kh1 [at] beer.com ) Monday Jan 20th, 2003 6:32 AM
what the fuck. how is breaking shit going to stop war? all they did was riot. and all that does is make the us weaker. i hope all of those fuckers who broke windows and defaced San Francisco get drafted. you should all be ashamed of yourselves. you accomplished nothing but bad media and crime. Burn in hell every last one of you!!
by g-dawg
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 12:47 PM
Kevin, you fucking liberal. Boo hoo, the INS and Starbucks and a big, corporate newspaper got windows broken. boooooo hoooooo hooooooo. Oh no, maybe this will make people not want to vote for Nader! *gasp*
by michael
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 2:26 PM
What a bunch of scumbags
by S. T. Royce
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 2:31 PM
:: stupid fucking liberal
by g-dawg • Monday January 20, 2003 at 12:47 PM

:: Kevin, you fucking liberal. Boo hoo, the INS and Starbucks and a big, corporate newspaper got windows broken. boooooo hoooooo hooooooo.

So much for "Peace" marches.
by Benn
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 3:13 PM
>>The global institutions of injustice were put in the defensive and their legitamcy questioned.

All you would do is replace the current institutions with new institutions of injustice. You would oppress just as brutally. You would kill and maim to keep the opposition quiet. You deny it, but your intellectual predecessors have all gone down the same route, and millions upon millions have died as a result.

There is no compassion or peace in any of you... just hatred and anger.
by raider
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 3:45 PM
"this will make people not want to vote for Nader!"

I go on breakaway marches and I vote for Nader. So sue me.
by ralph phelan
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 3:55 PM
"I took part in the break away march and had a great time taking back are streets and fucking up what we could. Violence against people i think is to much but violence against property really harms no one"

Glad you feel that way. What's your home address?

by Highbuttshron
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 4:05 PM
So the crowd was "as many as" 300,000? What the hell does that mean? I don't suppose you got an ariel photo to post, showing that 300 K, do ya?

What is it with you slackers and Starbucks anyway? Whenever I go in there I see people who look like YOU behind the counter. (And they always give sullen, slow service. Is this a form of protest? They will work for the corporate giant -- but they will do so very poorly!)

So "corporate media" was attacked? In other words, newspaper vending machines were tipped over? You people are becoming indistinguisable from an Onion parody.

What is it like to have to create some alternate, Star Trek holodeck reality in your mind, where you are a brave warrior fighting imaginary fascism? How much doublethink does it take to ignore REAL fascism when it smacks you in the face, as it did on 9/11/01?
by ruprecht
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 4:58 PM
3 Steps to stopping the War in Iraq:

(1) Protest for days to show you're serious. Day in and day out like the ani-Chavez protestors in Venezuela. Show you mean it, and that this isn't just a party/protest of convenience that is only designed to make the protestors feel good.

(2) Shut down the ANSWER people and the violent types that discredit the peace movement. Leave the Bush is a Nazi garbage at home because it causes people to tune you out before you speak. Think Martin Luther King and Gandhi not Arafat.

(3) Get people out there to honestly debate why Saddam with WMD is not a danger, or how he's unlikely to get them, or how if we don't go to war the French will jump up and handle Saddam. Convince the nation that we're safe following your course. Clearly the majority of Americans are not getting your message because the message is lost in anti-Bush, anti-republican, anti-capitalism, anti-globalism, anti-Isreal garbage and not specific to Iraq.
by Karyn
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 5:13 PM
Best estimates seem to be 120,000 - 135,000 in DC and 85,000 - 100,000 in SF. Good work!
by Anthony
( elzonda [at] hotmail.com ) Monday Jan 20th, 2003 5:17 PM
I'm happy to see that some activists posting here have the sense and humanity to condemn violence and vandalism. However many juvenile yobs such tactics as putting a brick through a window will inspire, sensible, hardworking, civilized people will recoil at this expression of mob rage. It is the surest way to ensure that this movement will not only be dismissed, but actively repudiated.
As someone who has had a lot of unpleasant experience with the INS, I have no sympathy with vandalizing its offices. As a resident of this country, I pay the taxes that fund the building and maintenance of such offices. Besides, the problem with the INS is not repressive laws, but incompetence.
Thus attacking it is just another expression of the unfathomable dopeyness of this supposed peace movement. It's also an example of deep hypocrisy on the part of many who make it up. I exclude those who genuinely wish for peace and tolerance, and extend that peace to their everyday conduct as citizens, especially toward people with whom they disagree.
Martin Luther King and Ghandi are excellent examples for a Western-based peace movement, because their tactics have been demonstrated to work. They worked because they caused people to confront the inconsistency in their governments' policies and the prevailing attitudes in their societies. However, no such inconsistencies exist when it comes to willingness to confont genuine tyrannies. And it is instructive to reflect that the tactics of King and Ghandi would have had no success whatever against the likes of Osama bin Laden, Saddam Hussein and Kim Jong Il.
by Reason
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 6:57 PM
That'll show 'em. Stick it to corporate media by knocking newspaper machines over.

You leftists define the word feeble.
by S. T. Royce
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 7:17 PM
:: (2) Shut down the ANSWER people and the violent types that discredit the peace movement. Leave the Bush is a Nazi garbage at home because it causes people to tune you out before you speak. Think Martin Luther King and Gandhi not Arafat.

I'm afraid it's too late for that. By naively letting itself be associated with ANSWER/WWP in the demonstrations, the peace movement has damaged its credibility as really being serious about peace, period. The media is slowly picking up on that fact (the New York Times has ignored it, of course, but will be reminded.)

It's too late as far as Iraq is concerned. The damage has been done.

by LG
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 7:38 PM
I LEFT BEFORE THESE IDIOTS DID THE DESTRUCTIONS IN S.F.
I SAY TO ALL OF THOSE WHO PARTICIPATED IN DESTROYING OUR PURPOSE.
KNOCK IT OFF!!
WE ARE NOT FOR DESTRUCTION LIKE BUSH IS -
WE ARE FOR CONSTRUCTION IN THE NAME OF PEACE.
WERE YOU SENT BY BUSH AND HIS PEOPLE TO MAKE US LOOK LIKE SAVAGES????
WE DON'T WANT YOUR KIND IN OUR MIDST!!!
by Theo Ford
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 8:03 PM
World Workers Party members unite. Think of all the good you useful idiots have done for despots throughout the world. Mao. Stalin,Kim Jong Il, Pol Pot. Think of all the innocent people your usefulness has helped. You know those who were starved, beaten, killed or imprisoned. I am sure from thier mass graves we can all hear thier cheers and profound thanks for all you useful idiots and the wonderful work you've done on behalf of the prols everywhere. You are nothing more than a front group for the Communists whether you what to admit this yourselves.
by Letsdv8
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 8:22 PM
"I took part in the break away march and had a great time taking back are streets and fucking up what we could. Violence against people i think is to much but violence against property really harms no one especially when its starbucks or citibank or anyone of the other places we hit up. The rest of us don't feel like sitting around and waiting for the bad things to happen we set out to outright stop them. Sorry you may not like or methods but we will be back...as none of us even got arrested or even any major media coverage...." Ah, the truth revealed. You're doing it for notariety and your personal glorification through those same corporate media icons you were attacking! So much for loftier goals. You just want your pictures on TV; you just wanted to break shit and have some shred of a rationale for doing it. What are you going to do when some other organized group with a viewpoint opposing your own comes to your house and breaks your windows? Presumably, that will be good, too. I suppose it is too much to expect jobless, uneducated, unemployable lowlife druggies to understand much of anything about the real world, but try this on for size...Peace begets peace, violence begets violence, apathy begets apathy. No intelligent individual could take any of you seriously after this; you're just a bunch of football hoodlums without a team. No, wait...you *do* have a team! The whole thing was probably just a warmup to the Raiders game...
by a
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 9:46 PM
"Presumably, that will be good, too. I suppose it is too much to expect jobless, uneducated, unemployable lowlife druggies to understand much of anything about the real world, but try this on for size...Peace begets peace, violence begets violence, apathy begets apathy. No intelligent individual could take any of you seriously after this; you're just a bunch of football hoodlums without a team."

This is too much.

I understand the thrill of 'fucking shit up' outside the INS building- the thought that people tagged, monitored like suicidal teens, guilty only of being (suspicious), people locked out and the people shipped out might hear about it and say, 'fuck yeah!'
that radicals around the world might hear about it and say, 'fuck yeah!'
that the alienated and bored, the sitting-the-fence protesters might hear about it and say, 'fuck yeah!'
that the INS, FBI, police, corporate media, protest politicians, and war hawks might hear about it and say, 'shit.'

Peace begets peace:
Should Palestinians try a public candle-lit vigil after curfew? Should they try sit-ins under tanks?

Violence begets violence: The United States spawned from a brief war, with many of its fathers also slavemasters.

Apathy begets apathy: Spectacle protests beget apathy. Megaphone rallies beget apathy. Prescription psychiatry begets apathy. Television begets apathy. Concrete begets apathy. Red white and blue begets apathy.

by one thing leads to another
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 11:26 PM
Tell that to the Native Americans who greeted the Pilgrims with open arms and the Ukrainians who met the Wehrmacht with bread and salt in their hands.

> Violence begets violence.

Oppression begets resistance.
by anarchist 666
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 11:58 PM
"ANARCHY IS NOT THE SOLLUTION BUT THE GATEWAY TO A BETTER WAY OF LIFE , LEARNING, AND UNDERSTANDING....FUCK THE AMERICAN WAY ........F.A.W. THE CIRCLE @ SOCIETY.03' STEVE MATLOCK VERNON CT.
by kaci
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 12:12 AM
Rev. Sheldon notes that ANSWER is simply a front group of the International Action Coalition (IAC). This group is allied with the Workers World Party, a Stalinist group that supports authoritarian and communist dictatorships around the globe.

“Even liberal journalist David Corn is alarmed by the fact that Workers World Party members have key leadership positions in Ramsey Clark’s ANSWER,” said Sheldon. “Corn noted in the LA Weekly in November that the Workers World Party supports North Korea, Cuba, and that it has campaigned on behalf of Milosevic. It would appear that Ramsey Clark actually supports terrorist regimes around the world.” ANSWER’s key spokesman, Brian Baker, for example, is a Workers World Party member.

At an ANSWER/Workers World Party anti-war rally in Washington, DC in November, 2002, one of the keynote speakers was Worker’s World managing editor Leslie Feinberg, a male-to-female transgender who told the anti-war protesters that he is a “Jewish revolutionary,” dedicated to the “fight against Zionism.” Feinberg is also a radical Communist.

“With friends like Saddam Hussein, Sheik Rahman, Slobodan Milosevic, and Fidel Castro, it would appear that Ramsey Clark’s loyalties may lie outside of the United States,” said Sheldon. “The FBI might be interested in monitoring his activities to see if he is aiding and abetting Muslim terrorist plans here in the United States.”

by Daniel
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 12:18 AM
ok, I just have to comment about a few things people are saying about the black bloc. You say..keep the peace in the peace march. It was not a peace march. They broke away, which is why it's called a breakaway march. They didn't march with peaniks and pacifists, they are anti-militarists. There is a difference. I can say most of them are anti-capistlists, so why woudn't they destroy property and the capitalist machine that creates and funds wars. Do you think marching really stops wars? are you that naive? Wars are stopped by direct action, not holding up a sign, and listening to liberal ANSWER speakers, which is why most of the protestors are droned down to nothing, because they lead no direction for action. Whether direct action in form of property destruction is violent or not, it's irrelevant because it doesn't harm any person. You say it's not direct action, of course it is. It's just offensive direct action. No they aren't sitting in a tree, or blockading a road, or doing sit ins, which I think are primarily are defensive. Instead of just supporting the anti-war movement, they support the anti-capitalist movement. Most wars are for profit, and profit equals capitalism, but you naive liberals who march against the war on IRAQ support the war in your everyday life. I'm not saying I'm perfect. I'm not a fundamentalist, but I try my best, and at least I recognize the problem, and not in denial. So if you 200k liberals, actually go into the streets, and did direct action, imagine the possibilities. If the 200k - 500k people surrounded the white house, and actually took it over, what could the police do? Send in the national guard to kill the anti-war protestors? yeah I doubt it, it would be political suicide anyway. And the fact that you liberals accuse the black bloc for destroying the movement is just comical. Instead of blaming the black bloc for people not coming to the protest, blame the people that don't come or the ANSWER liberals who don't support immediate change, which direct action does. Anyone can ignore someone with a sign. In seattle, Clinton had to fly down to seattle. Do you think bush cares about you liberals? yeah, right, he has his conservative base. I'm not saying I'm against marching, I do everything possible. Whether it's marching, direct action, voting for the most liberal candidate, yeah, whatever it is, even though I might be compromising myself in either movement, anarchy vs liberal. Anarchists tell me not to vote, but yeah, that won't do anything, that's just like holding up a sign, and refusing to take direct action. Bush won't care if I don't vote. But I respect diversity of tactics, and try them all to stop the war machine, capitalism. instead of not voting, why don't anarchists and anti-capitalists run for office to be a spokersperson for the anarchists and anti-capitalists. Just because you run for office doesn't make you a hypocrit. You can easily change the role of the job, by setting up forums for your constituets, or voting systems, so you can decentralize your own power they elected you with. And you have to be part of the system to destroy it anyway. Yeah just some random comments, I should just diagnose myself with shizophrenia now.
by Screw David Corn
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 12:26 AM
David Corn may have forgotten the Iran-Contra and Watergate started out as "conspiracy theories" but we haven't. Read David Corn's article regarding Michael Ruppert's expose "A White Knight Talking Backwards."

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=12536

Then check out Mr. Ruppert's thorough rebuttal:

http://www.copvcia.com/free/ww3/030402_cornreply.html

And speaking of Alternet, recently it has been in the news with its own ethical dilemma:

http://www.narconews.com/hazenstory1.html

Finally, here's our note to Mr. Corn, who we think may be forgetting his roots:
Mr. Corn,
Your arguments against Mr. Ruppert's so-called conspiracy theory seem to turn upon several faulty premises.

First you assert that, "to execute the simultaneous destruction of the two towers, a piece of the Pentagon, and four airplanes... is far beyond the skill level of U.S. intelligence. It would require dozens (or scores or hundreds) of individuals to attempt such a scheme."

Let me see...we could not pull this off, but Osama bin Laden, who lives in a cave with a ragtag crew of Taliban suicide pilots were able to do so? Osama is a millionaire, but he is no Pug Winokur.

As for secrecy, have you ever worked at a large corporation - Enron for example? How were the top brass, who no doubt have spent a lifetime backstabbing and cannibalizing each other, able to cooperate long enough and keep the secret of Enron's impending doom from the public eye long enough to bilk thousands of employees and stockholders out of their life savings? They had to have the cooperation of other agencies as well - Arthur Andersen for one. You mean no one spilled the beans? Not even a secretary?
Apparently not.

And this statement: "CIA officers and American officials have been evildoers. They have supported death squads and made use of drug dealers overseas. They have assisted torturers, disseminated assassination manuals, sold weapons to terrorist friendly governments, undermined democratically elected governments, and aided dictators who murder and maim. They have covered up reports of massacres and human rights abuses.They have plotted to kill foreign leaders." Oh please... re-read what you just wrote. These are people who are able to justify dismembering children, and you think they may lose sleep over a few thousand American citizens?

As for your interview with the ex-CIA operative - a man who has spent a lifetime lurking and lying - says, "Oh no, we would never harm an American citizen," and you believe him? Bet you're sitting on a pile of worthless Enron stock and maybe even an Edsel or two.

George W. Bush does not care whether or not he is branded the most evil president of all time, because he knows that the gulliible and naive people who believe everything they see on television will continue to wave their flags and go to their football games and never bother to ask questions that matter.

Your publication deals in opinion pieces and commentary. Mr. Ruppert deals in facts, and I believe the facts speak for themselves.

Sincerely,
Editor, The Fallout Shelter
by kaci
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 12:32 AM
The IAC, another WWP offshoot, was a key partner with ANSWER in promoting the protest. It was founded by Ramsey Clark, attorney general for President Lyndon Johnson in the 1960s. For years, Clark has been on a bizarre political odyssey, much of the time in sync with the Workers World Party. As an attorney, he has represented Lyndon LaRouche, the leader of a political cult. He has defended Serbian war criminal Radovan Karadzic and Pastor Elizaphan Ntakirutimana, who was accused of participating in the genocide in Rwanda in 1994. Clark is also a member of the International Committee To Defend Slobodan Milosevic.
by of those headlines
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 12:32 AM
"Hundreds of thousands against U.S. imperialist aggression in SF"

I would guess there are lots of people that are against US imperialist aggression in SF. At least parts of SF. There are certain parts of SF where more undesirables hang out that people wouldn't mind if the US were to use aggression against these anti-capitalists types. I mean, it's not like they're worth allowing to live or anything, they pretty much just take up oxygen that others could be using for more productive things, like, sweeping the streets or picking up the trash or whatever it is those people do to eek out a living. Heck, I can even think of one in particualr right now who I'm just biding my time before I bring down the hammer. Not like anyone will miss 'em or nothing. Price they pay for being a smart-ass.
by kaci
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 12:40 AM
Michael Ruppert's Conspiracy Chronology


Bin Laden met with the CIA? The CIA knew about Bin Laden's plans to attack beforehand? The US provided $43 million in aid to the Taliban in May of 2001? Who was really involved in the September 11 attacks?


'Oh Lucy! -- You Gotta Lotta 'Splainin To Do'

IF CIA AND THE GOVERNMENT WEREN'T INVOLVED IN THE SEPTEMBER 11 ATTACKS WHAT WERE THEY DOING?

Bin Laden Met with the CIA in July and Walked Away

by

Michael C. Ruppert

by kaci
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 12:47 AM
A week prior to requesting an interview with Ruppert, we asked David Corn to be on the Morning Show along side with Michael Ruppert and he refused. We then pursued an interview with Ruppert, and called his Los Angeles office. At the time, they told us he were unavailable till August. However, some days later, his office called back and was open to doing the interview. Based on Ruppert’s availability and the Morning Show’s schedule, we arranged with his office to interview him on Thursday the 13th of June at 8am. We were asked if he would be on the program by himself and we said yes, since our request with David Corn was declined. We would like to emphasize that the Morning Show production team and KPFK management did not anticipate David Corn’s eventual participation.

The interview focused on Ruppert’s research of the 911 events. About 20 minutes into the interview, I asked Ruppert to state his opinion on the Government’s involvement with the 911 events. I also asked Ruppert to respond to Corn’s recent criticism of his research. While Ruppert was asserting that Corn in Ruppert’s opinion was connected to the CIA, Morning Show producer, Christopher Sprinkle received a phone call from David Corn demanding to join the interview in progress.
I was informed that David Corn was on the line. At that time the Morning Show went to a musical break which isn’t out of the norm. In fact the Morning Show typically has 4 musical breaks throughout the two hour show.

Off the air, producer Christopher Sprinkle asked Ruppert if he would agree to allow David Corn to join the interview. He agreed and the interview proceeded with the two. About ten minutes into this second part of the interview, Ruppert admitted that Dave MacMichael had told him that David Corn is involved with the CIA. The interview ended, with the understanding that the Morning Show would try to follow up and arrange to have Michael Ruppert, David Corn, and Dave MacMichael, back on the program to clarify all viewpoints.
by jaz
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 1:46 AM
You people have got to be the most naive rubes on this planet. You ought to go be human shields in Iraq. The I.Q. of the U.S. would increase, and Saddam probably couldn't find his cattle prod, to bugger you with.
by Jim
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 2:05 AM
Is The Guardian and Asian Week "corporate media" now? Give me a break!
by Anarchist
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 2:12 AM
Without their "voluntary servitude" the leader would be impotent. As Gandhi points out:

Even the most despotic government cannot stand except for the consent of the governed which consent is often forcibly procured by the despot. Immediately the subject ceases to fear the despotic force, his power is gone (Gandhi, 1980, p.27)

In actual practice, the withdrawal of co-operation takes the form of civil disobedience, strikes, occupations, boycotts, and a general mass non-compliance with the wishes of the oppressor. [Gene Sharp (1973) has documented over 200 successful techniques of nonviolent resistance.] In the great Indian strike or hartel of 1930 against the Salt Laws, for example, virtually the entire subcontinent was shut down and British rule paralyzed (Bondurant, 1958).
by S. T. Royce
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 2:55 AM
:: Without their "voluntary servitude" the leader would be impotent. As Gandhi points out:
by David
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 3:58 AM
img_8329.jpg
img_8329.jpg

Just one example of the great diversity of attendees.
Bless her and all those others of millions who marched around the planet for peace and equality.
by David
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 4:01 AM
wavygravy835501.jpg
wavygravy835501.jpg

Just one example of the great diversity of attendees.
Bless her and all those others of millions who marched around the planet for peace and equality.
by David
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 4:03 AM
img_8070.jpg
img_8070.jpg

Just one more example of the great diversity of attendees.
Bless her and all those others of millions who marched around the planet for peace and equality.

by David
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 4:21 AM
img_8060.jpg
img_8060.jpg

More citizens
by David
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 4:23 AM
img_8063.jpg
img_8063.jpg

Another Citizen
by David
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 4:25 AM
img_8322.jpg
img_8322.jpg

More of real people
by David
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 4:28 AM
img_8315.jpg
img_8315.jpg

More citizens of the World
by David
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 4:29 AM
img_8056.jpg
img_8056.jpg

More People
by David
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 4:31 AM
img_8182.jpg
img_8182.jpg

More of Truth
by David
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 4:33 AM
img_8144.jpg
img_8144.jpg

Truth continued
by David
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 4:34 AM
img_8244.jpg
img_8244.jpg

And a little more truth...
by David
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 5:38 AM
img_8196.jpg
img_8196.jpg

More citizens for Peace
by travis
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 6:20 AM
I am a young man who attended the peace rally in SF on Oct. 26th, and as I proceeded to walk back to my vehicle on Market street from the civic center, I did not notice any of the vandlism that has been shown in these pictures. Freedom to protest is a right only if it is not abused. For us to abuse this right only contributes to the very thing that we protest, Mr. Bush abusing his right to govern the social power that we abdicate to him. On a second note thank, and send thanks to every person that has contributed photos to this cause.
Peace
by Decentral committee for bringing the war home
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 6:55 AM
Remember: the war machine is directly connected to the economy--which is directly connected to each and every one of us. If the state can not conduct fundamental business and general commerce is brought to a halt--cities 'business' shut down, the machine will not be able to function.

Obviously this does'nt happen when only 2,000 people dare to fight, or even 10,000 for that matter--but it's certainly a start. Moreover it can not happen unless certain manifestations of power are stopped--this happens both non-violently and with property destruction ( see: the "non-violent "overthrow of milosevic ) and with actual fighting and violence. The difference however is in the intensity. We (the movements) do not have a monopoly on violence or force--the state does. But even with that, it in now way implies our defeat or servitude or even nessesity of 'non-violence.' It does however, inidicate we will need non-violent approaches (i.e general strike, military refusal/revolt) but even with that alone, we will not bring the machine to a halt---even with millions of people in the street, the imperialist /capitalist /state will continue it's agenda. As proven by our last 'election,' the powers that be do not care what we say--they may however, care what we do.

We have the arrogance to ask every one involved in the anti-war movements to start participating as well in violent or property-modifying direct action. We do however, feel it is of the utmost importance if we are going to end this war, and the next ones, and finally defeat domination culture--and create real democracy and freedom, or rather, total liberation--that we must--simply must raise the social, political, and economic costs of war--and the imperialism behind it--by a diverse, dynamic, and effective means.

When the war starts--America stops.

...if everytime they bombed a community of hospital elsewhere: our schools were closed--by students and workers, our businesses were shutdown, the city and rual streets made into autonomous zones--of play and struggle, the malls, banks, and oil HQs that benefit from the war were trashed, and recruitment centers torched, and the police made to use tactics of war on our own citizens--They may rethink their imperialist war.

indeed, bring the war home.
by Decentral committee for bringing the war home
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 6:57 AM
Remember: the war machine is directly connected to the economy--which is directly connected to each and every one of us. If the state can not conduct fundamental business and general commerce is brought to a halt--cities 'business' shut down, the machine will not be able to function.

Obviously this does'nt happen when only 2,000 people dare to fight, or even 10,000 for that matter--but it's certainly a start. Moreover it can not happen unless certain manifestations of power are stopped--this happens both non-violently and with property destruction ( see: the "non-violent "overthrow of milosevic ) and with actual fighting and violence. The difference however is in the intensity. We (the movements) do not have a monopoly on violence or force--the state does. But even with that, it in now way implies our defeat or servitude or even nessesity of 'non-violence.' It does however, inidicate we will need non-violent approaches (i.e general strike, military refusal/revolt) but even with that alone, we will not bring the machine to a halt---even with millions of people in the street, the imperialist /capitalist /state will continue it's agenda. As proven by our last 'election,' the powers that be do not care what we say--they may however, care what we do.

We have the arrogance to ask every one involved in the anti-war movements to start participating as well in violent or property-modifying direct action. We do however, feel it is of the utmost importance if we are going to end this war, and the next ones, and finally defeat domination culture--and create real democracy and freedom, or rather, total liberation--that we must--simply must raise the social, political, and economic costs of war--and the imperialism behind it--by a diverse, dynamic, and effective means.

When the war starts--America stops.

...if everytime they bombed a community of hospital elsewhere: our schools were closed--by students and workers, our businesses were shutdown, the city and rual streets made into autonomous zones--of play and struggle, the malls, banks, and oil HQs that benefit from the war were trashed, and recruitment centers torched, and the police made to use tactics of war on our own citizens--They may rethink their imperialist war.

indeed, bring the war home.
by heartLove!
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 2:59 PM
you are DEAD wrong, re:....
you are LIVE right, thinker...

peace is not war, dummies.
by kosmonaut
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 5:32 PM
C'mon, you call kicking over a couple of newspaper stands "corporate media targeted"? Hahaha! Still, nice pics...
by why?
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 10:15 PM
so how does broken windows stop the war?
I guess I am missing something.
by Mr. Toad
Wednesday Jan 22nd, 2003 12:16 AM
To all the anti-war anti-globalist radicals that busted up the city:
Our freedom of speech ends where our actions violate the rights of others. Including corporations as well as individuals.
This forum clearly serves to prove that if you take dummies and educate them, all you get is dummies that use correct grammar. You shouldn't have wasted your college education learning to perform destructive acts against those with whom you disagree. You were supposed to learn how to use your brain to change the world, not your fists! Any dumbass can destroy other peoples' property. You have now proven it.
Toad
by TerryPittman
Wednesday Jan 22nd, 2003 12:19 AM
Could someone explain why some of the anarchists are wearing face coverings? Are only certain people allowed to do that?
by anarchist
Wednesday Jan 22nd, 2003 12:20 AM
1.) practice

2.) a taste of what they can expect if they go through with the invasion
by ...
Wednesday Jan 22nd, 2003 3:39 AM
Corporations should not have rights. They are not people.
by Radian
Wednesday Jan 22nd, 2003 3:46 AM
Corporations have rights. A corporation can be convicted in court and sign contracts. A corporation has basically the same rights as you do except it never "dies".
by Mr. Toad
Wednesday Jan 22nd, 2003 4:08 AM
Wrong Mr "he who will only identify himself as ......"!
Corporations have much the same rights AND RESPONSIBILITIES as any individual. In addition, many of your family members and/or friends have their jobs and livelihood because of a corporation somewhere. You imbeciles seem to think that life would be grand without corporations. All our problems would be solved, eh? This place would be a rathole if people like you were in charge. We would be little more than a third world nation with a standard of living, an infrastructure, and a healthcare system to match.
If you don't like it, move somewhere else. Somewhere that corporations are illegal. Where business is shunned as we shun a rabid dog. Where anarchists like you get to run the show. Then come back and tell us your standard of living is better there. Better yet, don't come back at all. Just send us a letter.
Toad
by Steve Best
( crmygdns [at] yahoo.com ) Wednesday Jan 22nd, 2003 7:51 AM
Corporations give people jobs, but they should NOT be treated as though they are living, breathing entities, if not for the simple fact that they tend to cut as many corners as possible, TO MAKE A BUCK. I cant wait for the day that I can start a business that employs people, FRIENDS, but I will not rape everyone else to do so.
by matchesnmayhem
Thursday Jan 23rd, 2003 2:02 PM
Theoretically a corporation can be convicted in courts, but most aren't. Multi-nationals aren't accountable to laws of a nation. This is how they are able to run rampant. And as sick as it is, a corporation has personhood. Burn them.
by matchesnmayhem
Thursday Jan 23rd, 2003 2:09 PM
The "peace begets peace" approach is feel good politics for liberal activists that have the privilege to decide on what ineffective tactics they want to employ in their pseudo activism. Resistance out of necessity and resistance out of solidarity. Holding prayer vigils and lobbying your leaders is a waste of time and ineffective. You need to decide what side of the fence you're on.
by Mr. Toad
Thursday Jan 23rd, 2003 5:06 PM
Many corporations are responsible because they have responsible management. Very few are actually like the Enrons of the world. Many activists, however, paint all corporations as vile, ill-intended entities bent on human and environmental destruction.
The truth is that their only function is to make money. As long as we understand that fact of life, we can deal very amicably with corporations. It is their only function. Beyond that, most also recognize the worth in being a good citizen as well, although some do not.
Our legal system is supposed to be the check on the activities of those who would not voluntarily be good citizens. But it has become a weapon used by activists who have a deep irrational hatred of everything corporate in nature.
I believe that if you misguidedly bring destruction and havoc on a person or entity that is not inherently engaged in evil, then you yourself are evil.
It is many times possible to disagree with and alter the actions of a person or corporation without completely destroying them. Most activists seem to disregard this option.
Toad
By the way, I don't know where you got the idea that multinationals are not subject to the laws of any country. They are indeed subject to the laws of whatever country in which they must operate. When in Rome, they must pretty much do as the Romans do. Or at least as they say........
by Radian
Thursday Jan 23rd, 2003 5:12 PM
A corporation like ford is accountable wherever in the us it has signifigant presence, every state.

Ford was almost convicted of murder in the pinto fiasco. Author Anderson was charged. Your view of corporations as unaccountable evil entities does not allign with reality.

by bush's grandpa
Thursday Jan 23rd, 2003 5:24 PM
the rockefellers standard oil sold oil to the nazis and the us during ww2, but were never charged with treson. rockefellers bank chase manhatten held the money the nazis took from the jews . nazi war criminals were used by the cia to tutor military dictatorships in chile brasil argentina bolivia uruguay and paraguay installed by rockefeller minions like dulles and kissinger. welcome to corporate america!
by bush's grandpa
Thursday Jan 23rd, 2003 5:24 PM
the rockefellers standard oil sold oil to the nazis and the us during ww2, but were never charged with treson. rockefellers bank chase manhatten held the money the nazis took from the jews . nazi war criminals were used by the cia to tutor military dictatorships in chile brasil argentina bolivia uruguay and paraguay installed by rockefeller minions like dulles and kissinger. welcome to corporate america!
by Mr. Toad
Thursday Jan 23rd, 2003 5:44 PM
Do you cook this stuff up on your own, or does Michael Moore help you?
by Travis Dlobies
Thursday Jan 23rd, 2003 9:28 PM
What a bunch of peaceful people. "We don't want violence!" Did you idiots see what you did to the city?
THE PROTESTORS ARE NOT ANTI-WAR, THEIR ANTI-AMERICANS! If you love communisim so damn much, why don't you move to CHINA?
by rantz
Thursday Jan 23rd, 2003 11:50 PM
Are you guys idiots? Do you not see what you are saying? By encouraging the "torching" or "destruction" of institutions and violence towards police, so that they will have to "use tactics of war on our own citizens," is exactly what you claim to be fighting against. The U.S. governement or the current government of Isreal for that mattter take decisive destructive action whenever their opponents do something they don't like. Iraq mouths off, attacks a spy plane of ours or what not, we go in and do what it is you are hoping to do. I am strongly object to this war, because i feel it is unjust, not because I am jealous that they get to destroy stuff and I don't. You are no better than them, and besides that your couple hundred or less rallyers, take credit from and take credit from the 200,000 or so people who marched for peace, not destruction.

Your destruction is not making a difference, if it was explain why the government used agent provacateurs in the Vietnam protests to vandalize and start anarchaic vioelnce. They used them to discredit the marches as a bunch of hooligans, so that they would not have to listen to them. Before you just react, take some time to think about what you are really doing.
by I was there
Thursday Jan 23rd, 2003 11:58 PM
It didn't work them. It wont work now.
by aaron
Friday Jan 24th, 2003 12:15 AM
So, Rantz, breaking windows of empty store-fronts is morally equivalent to dropping plutonium-tipped bombs on civilians?

Ever wonder why you passivists are losing the debate?

Whatever one may think of the black bloc (I personally have some problems with it), all of you who argue against militancy must reckon with the fact that this war is fast approaching and Bush thus far has been given little reason to believe that opponents to it are willing to raise the stakes. Indeed, he's quite happy to point to these demonstrations (no matter how big) as evidence of American freedom.

Freedom to be ineffectual, that is.

by puc
Friday Jan 24th, 2003 2:09 AM
I think that a requirement of absolute pacifism is sort of like animal rights protesters would like people to not harm any animal. In reality, it is impossible to not kill small numbers of invertebrates or to displace other animals from habitat, yet the fact that it is impossible to live up to absolute animal rights doesn't mean that it is just a duality - that everyone might as well go about shooting eagles and eating puppies. Rather, everyone has to make some sort of reasonable best intermediate approach (which for many includes deep respect for pets and wildlife, but eating cluckers the chicken).

I think what lots of pacifists and others are concerned about is that as soon as the imaginary line is crossed, nonpacifists will start adopting some of the infamous types of behavior displayed by cultlike groups such as the symbionese liberation army who did great harm to the antiwar movement of the 60s by shooting housewives at banks and making bombs, or hitting police officers or doing eye for an eye stuff.

The thing is, there is a great moral argument that it is wrong to demand absolute pacifism within the US even if this will make it easier for powerful people to just brush off and ignore the peace movement (like Bush & co just ignored the marches in DC last Saturday) when we are basically expecting people in 3rd world countries that are the subject of US bullets (like peasant in el salvador or Columbia or east timor, or palestinians) to probably pick up arms against their assassins. If we were to demand pacifism from them, that would be insane, like asking jewish people in germany to peacefully step onto the cattle cars. But conversely if we expect and tolerate defensive violence on their part (which we mostly do) it is a double standard, because we are allowing them to physically take the bullets for us, when it is our government paying for those guns.

Anyway, I think that people have to develop a most sane and reasonable intermediate here, just like they might choose to only eat fish they've caught from the ocean but not inhumanely raised pigs - slightly raising the property consequences for people in power in the name of saving lives does not automatically mean doing something that will harm the movement like harming police officers or bystanders, or becoming a nut like Kathleen Soliah - otherwise are you just being a 'good german'?
by Mst. Srg. Storenson
Friday Jan 24th, 2003 2:16 AM
You people have the very skills that we are looking for.Please drop by your nearest enlistment station and lets talk. We have a job for you in Iraq.
by Algorythm
Friday Jan 24th, 2003 2:35 AM
Don't you think that the people in power can read the writing on the walls? You can't call it a waste of time when a crowd that could be seen from space utterly takes over Downtown SF for hours in blatant protest against the plethora of Bushco's idiocy. Don't you think the heads of these corporations and Bush himself can see and understand that if it's this "bad" before a real war breaks out, that it's going to be a lot worse After one does? And can't you see that the more warlike we become, the more angry and resistant the crowd will become?

I for one think that as soon as possible, we need to start seeing massive protests against the media.


Peace,
d
by Mr. Toad
Friday Jan 24th, 2003 3:25 AM
These imbeciles protest destruction of Iraq with the destruction of San Francisco.
What a joke.
Toad
by Conservatives Against the War
Friday Jan 24th, 2003 3:28 AM
Coming to a country club near you.
by chp
Friday Jan 24th, 2003 3:44 AM
Most people tolerate some level of violence. The only major absolute pacifist group in this country are the Amish/Mennonites/quakers. The amish or anabaptists split off from the church in europe in 1527 for their absolute pacifism and have been burned at the stake by various governments that didn't like how they couldn't be conscripted ever since.
Some of them say that self-defense isn't permissible - you must always turn the other cheek.

Most people in the US accept the idea of self defense - half of households possess guns. Violence in sports is often promoted and accepted for boys - look at the injuries generated in football and wrestling. Simulated violence is accepted in movies and video games. Therefore, most people are not absolute pacifists.

Most laws are designed under the idea of jurisprudence - for instance, people can be given driver's licenses when they are 16 but not 15 not because it is unethical to drive when you are 15, but for the promotion of the greater good of society and minimizing crashes, a line was drawn. For the promotion of the best outcome in typical situations, laws should be maintained against assault, battery, and property harm - because if the laws were removed, greedy and mentally crazy people could easily decide to do unethical acts of violence. However, it would be ethical to use violence to stop the khmer rouge from getting guns to kill off all the literate people, or the germans to load up disabled, jewish, and socialist people into prison camps - and it can be ethical to lie in front of a train transporting nuclear equipment, like Plowshares does, even if it's illegal.
by Mr. Toad
Friday Jan 24th, 2003 3:46 AM
"Bombing starts in ten minutes".
by aaron
Friday Jan 24th, 2003 4:14 AM
I have encounter people on the left that I consider to be stupid. I have encountered people on the left that I consider to be assholes. But rarely have I seen these two traits embodied in the same person.

The right, on the other hand, is over-run with stupid assholes. You, Toad, are one of them.
by Utah Phillips
Friday Jan 24th, 2003 4:22 AM
Laws are useless. Good people don't need them. Bad people don't obey them.
by Conservatives Against the War
Friday Jan 24th, 2003 4:33 AM
And you're not a real conservative, Mr. Toad. Real conservatives are against the war.
by LostProphet
Wednesday Jan 29th, 2003 11:53 PM
Acts speak louder than words. Plain and simple.
by toad is a pig
Thursday Jan 30th, 2003 5:44 PM
did i mention that toad is a pig?
by Tim Fulton
( Fantasywriter3 [at] hotmail.com ) Monday Mar 24th, 2003 11:07 AM
I have saw a sign that says "Only our 'Leader's' want war." That isn't true now, nor will be in the near future. To begin with, approxamitly 75% of American's stand behind Bush's decision to go to war with Iraq. This 75% is satisfyed with what is happening. Simply becuase we don't take to the streets doesn't mean our voices are being ignored by the President. If it was really necessary, the opposition would happen now: the people who understand war is NECESSARY; not wanted; will take to the streets and show their opinion. Another thing to mention is that you rarely listen to anything anyone else has to say. I have recently heard many reports on anti-war americans. One concerned a girl who ignored the question of "What other way would we help the Iraqies." She just repetativly put she knew there was another way, and this wasn't needed for Iraq. Another was actually on a television show concerning two sides; one Iraqi himself and an anti-war american group. The anti-war group was told repetatvily, from someone who has actually experienced the torture of Iraq, that they were wrong and a war was welcomed and wanted. When looking upon their site, they said nothing about what the Iraqi had said...they were just concerend about the fact that they were on T.V. And the third thing i am to bring up: we discussed the necessaty of war before WWII. If we went in sooner, thousands would have been saved.
by Just an observation
Monday Mar 24th, 2003 12:14 PM
Did you ever notice how a refusal to use correct English punctuation and capitalization correlates with a person's propensity to be an ignorant anarchist? There also seems to be a strong correlation with joblessness, slovenly dress, post-modern theory, and general political simplemindedness and nit-wittery. Just an observation. Carry on with your treason.
by The final Conflict
( Arab_Freedom [at] hotmail.com ) Friday Mar 12th, 2004 1:38 PM
On the Spain incident called OPERATION DEATH TRAIN:
This is what America calls "Shock and Awe" only this time they are not using that term because it happened to their own European friends.
Only this time it happened to Europeans and NOT Arabs. I wonder how they feel now? Is it the same as how we feel? I believe these people have no feelings at all in their blood. Look at the Europeans who went to China to steal and how they acted towards people different from them? Look at the mistreatment of North Korea today because they were intelligent enough to seek Nuclear Protection against their Republic from being attacked by America? Look carefully and see who the real devils are in Red, White and Blue!
Sayyed.
by RJP
Monday Sep 19th, 2005 1:35 PM
The boston tea party happened quite some time ago times have changed, and when the colonist decided to dump all that tea it would have an immediate affect on the tea market, in return altering the taxes inforced when buying tea. If citizens today want things to change they must be civil about it, form and register an organazation and begin to break down the laws and put the U.S. goverment on the spot and exploit all the wrong doings and use US laws in your favor you were born free without a birthcertificate\S.S. number and we all have inalienabe rights and can choose not to have our names in the goverments (tax payers data base) no longer being apart of the contract that binds you to such liabilities
by been there. Done that.
Monday Sep 19th, 2005 2:17 PM
We tried that. It didn't work.