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Anti-War

Proud and Insolent Youth Incorporated
by Andrew McCrae
Monday Nov 25th, 2002 7:37 PM
The man who killed a Police Officer in Red Bluff, CA claims immunity because he was incorporated.
Hello Everyone, my name’s Andy. I killed a Police Officer in Red Bluff, California in a motion to bring attention to, and halt, the police-state tactics that have come to be used throughout our country.
Now I’m coming forward, to explain that this killing was also an action against corporate irresponsibility.

All of the major problems in America and throughout the world today are caused by corporate irresponsibility.
The very concept behind corporations is to protect their owners from taking responsibility for their actions. This means that directors within corporations can dump waste chemicals in our drinking water, or keep our work environments in fatally dangerous conditions without any personal liability. Corporations murder thousands of people each year this way and are never held accountable.
As a statement against this practice, prior to my action in Red Bluff, I formed a corporation under the name “Proud and Insolent Youth Incorporated,” so that I could use the destructive immunity of corporations and turn it on something that actually should be destroyed.

The name ‘Proud and Insolent Youth’ is a reference to Peter Pan.
Just before their final dual and Captain Hook’s demise, Hook said to Peter, “Proud and insolent youth, prepare to meet thy doom.”
To which Peter replied, “Dark and sinister man, have at thee!”
Now, Peter Pan hates pirates, and I hate pirates, and corporations are nothing but a bunch of pirates. It’s time to send them to a watery grave, and rip them completely out of our lives.

The top 4%, the richest people in America, have more money than the lower 50% of the country combined. And it’s not because they scrimp and save or because they are somehow more deserving. It’s because they cheat and steal and twist the rules to their advantage.
They shatter smaller companies, downsize their own companies, and ship their own factories overseas or across the border to make fortunes in immoral money games. The people who lose out in this are the workers, the people who actually make things of value.
The question corporate capitalists have asked themselves is ‘why empower workers in America to demand better wages, better working conditions, and equal social rights, when you can ship those jobs off to a Colombian or Sri Lankan who can be forced to work under slave-like conditions?’
Don’t think the government is going to help us. Our government leaders are getting paid by them.
Selling out to the rich is inherent to political survival.
In order to afford dazzling election campaigns and make it into their positions of power in the first place, politicians will sell out to whoever can offer them the most money.
Likewise, the corporate lobbies that constantly press themselves upon our lawmakers have both billions of dollars at their disposal and great influence upon which laws are blocked or passed.
These things combined together means that someone who dedicates their lives to making other lives better will never be able to have the same political influence as someone who destroys lives and the environment in the pursuit of money.
Any laws established in the past that protect the American people, the environment, or smaller companies over corporate profits, our lawmakers will sweep away through Deregulation.
Corporate executives and well-preened conservative politicians talk about Deregulation in terms of ‘getting the government off our backs.’ This is because the role of the government is to protect its citizens, and ensuring that workers are protected costs these rich people money. But Deregulation simply gives corporations free reign over their markets, enabling them to overwhelm and envelope smaller companies, destroying our rights and natural resources along the way.
The government is also willing to look the other way while these same people claim outrageous tax breaks. Corporate executives buy gold-plated plumbing fixtures, stay in $3,000 a night hotel suites, take $2,000 wine-tasting classes, or buy $20,000 worth of rugs, and then have their corporations write these expenses off on their taxes. This means that those of us who actually do pay our taxes end up footing the bill for these luxury items!
Laws are even invented specifically for corporations which enable them to avoid paying taxes in ways that the average person is denied.
Through the IRS’s Net Operating Loss deduction, corporations can demand back tax money they’ve paid if they lose money in their business. When you are just barely able to afford rent, and groceries, are you allowed to ask for your taxes back? No.
Yet many multibillion-dollar corporations finagle their way out of paying any taxes at all. And still, some politicians are willing to badmouth ‘Welfare’ as the big inefficiency of our tax system. But less than $23 billion dollars is spent on Welfare annually, whereas over $100 billion is given away to big business each year to help them do things they should pay for themselves, such as buying new equipment or advertising their products. This ‘Corporate Welfare’ is even claimed by some experts to soak up $800 billion dollars of our national budget. This is even outside of the tax money corporations save, and the other hundreds of billions of dollars given away to corporations for other reasons.

Corporations will not voluntarily give up their dominating power of political immunity and the financial wealth it gains them. And with all our government leaders either personally connected to corporations or sold out to them, if we try to remove this corporate influence by ourselves, we will find ‘the Law,’ with all its weight, upon us.
Our politicians have no serious proposals for the problems of health care, unemployment, crime, disappearing pensions, or any of the pressing social issues that actually afflict us, yet they vote themselves raises every year. They vote themselves solid health care plans. They vote themselves hefty pensions. What about our health care? What about our pensions? Why don’t they watch after us the same way they watch after themselves?
It’s because if we had the opportunity to provide ourselves all of these things, the politicians and CEO’s wouldn’t be able to take the money for themselves. Having to spend all of our time to meet our middle and lower class needs means that we will not have time to fight against the forces that are actually pressing us into this situation. And the inevitable competition that results from this lifestyle splits us up, so that we cannot unite in an effort to destroy it.

The only uniting we are allowed is against the common enemies we are doctored to believe in, the foreign ‘terrorists’ who come to attack us. But these ‘terrorists’ do not violently attack the United States because they hate freedom, or because they think blowing themselves up is cool. They use violence against the U.S. because U.S. corporations and the U.S. government are murdering their families and destroying their countries.
As demoralizing as corporations make our lives, and as bland as they make our culture here in the U.S, corporations practice their immunity in far more brutal and murderous ways in foreign countries.
We are lead to believe that Third World countries are under-developed because the people living there just somehow don’t have the intelligence to drag themselves out of poverty.
The truth is that the people of these Third World countries know exactly how to get themselves out of their economic ruts, but are forcefully kept from doing it because of a dominating U.S. influence. These people want to develop their own industrial and technological industries by putting tariffs on U.S. products. But they can’t do this because the World Trade Organization (WTO) which is both dominated by U.S. corporations, and has the authority to regulate third world use of tariffs, prevents them from doing so.
Tariffs on U.S. products sold within Third World countries would raise their prices and ease consumption of them. This would give third world industries space in the market to strengthen themselves. Using tariffs in this manner is a fundamental tool for any country to develop into a more powerful nation, but the WTO is perpetually keeping them from doing it, just so U.S. companies can sell their own products there.
This is the exact same situation the American colonists were protesting when they threw the Boston Tea Party.
Furthermore, while these countries economies are weak, the International Monetary Fund (IMF) takes advantage of this weakness and forces them to restructure their national production in ways that are simply murderous- preventing farmers from producing crops to sustain themselves and their communities, and instead churn out more of whatever luxury products the U.S. and other developed countries want.
The IMF places such a high interest rate on its loans and restructures its debtor nations in such ridiculous ways, that these nations become locked perpetually in a poor, subservient role, unable to pay even the interest on their debts.
Then, when Third World peasants hold their own ‘Tea Parties’ and revolt against this foreign domination over their lives, corporate lobbyists cry foul and the U.S. military is called in to protect ‘U.S. interests.’ Soon following, a corrupt, U.S.-friendly government is installed, or reinforced: one that will accept blood money to do what the U.S. tells it to, and do whatever it takes to keep its own people from interfering with the U.S. role of economic supremacy.
George Kennan, the most powerful voice in U.S. foreign policy following World War II, clearly gave away these brutal motives for U.S. dominance when he said-

“[America has] about 50 percent of the world’s wealth, but only 6.3 percent of its population. In this situation, we cannot fail to be the object of envy and resentment. Our real task in the coming period is to devise a pattern of relationships which permit us to maintain this position of disparity… To do so, we have to dispense with all sentimentality… We should cease to talk about vague and unreal objectives such as human rights, the raising of living standards and democratization… The less we are hampered by idealistic slogans the better.”

American government’s collaboration with big corporations has turned America from a Republic into an Empire. In the same spirit that Rome was an Empire, raping foreign lands for labor and resources- in the same spirit that Britain was an Empire, which caused us to turn from Her in hatred.

Just as Rome and Britain did, America has military bases all over the world. How many foreign bases are established in the U.S.? How many would the American people allow?
We’re told a series of lies to make us willing to believe that having our military spread across the globe is reasonable.
The conscience of the American public is satiated with racist rhetoric, proclaiming us the ‘true defenders of freedom,’ and ‘the world’s one and only hope.’
We are told that we are the policemen of the world. We are told that our unique national position gives us the responsibility to check and balance other countries. We are told that the western citizen values life more than the overpopulated third world savages.
We are raised on something that sounds a little like this-
“We are more valuable than the others, who outnumber us and will always outnumber us. We are more valuable, because our blood has fitted us to be more inventive than the others, to be better leaders of our people than the others, because it has fitted us to be better soldiers, better statesmen, to attain a higher culture, to be better characters.”
That was Heinrich Himmler who said that, Hitler’s associate, speaking of why it was necessary for Germany to dominate the world.
Americans are no more naturally gifted with human capabilities than any other people in the world, and our lives are no more valuable than any other people in the world, either.
But these lies work because we want to believe them. It feels good to believe them.
Our leaders fervent our desire for war abroad and a police state at home by telling us that these people fighting for their freedom are ‘terrorists.’ Then they promise to protect us by destroying them through a process that will simply require us to give up a little freedom, and send our soldiers far over seas.
Hermann Goering, Hitler’s master of propaganda, explained the process like this-

“Why of course the people don’t want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don’t want war: neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in Germany... But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy… or a communist dictatorship… the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”

Does that formula sound familiar?
Successful campaigns of conquest must have a cover story to gain the support of the people who will be forced to fight in it. They are given a common enemy and distracted from their problems at home. The Nazis focused on the injustices of the Versailles treaty to motivate the German people into conquering Europe. We used to focus on ‘communism’ to steal all throughout Central and South America, and other parts of the rest of the world. Nowadays we focus on ‘terrorism’ to go into Afghanistan and Iraq. Notice how the reaction from the average American to the dual knowledge that we didn’t know where Osama Bin Laden was, but were still going to attack Afghanistan anyways, was, “Well, we gotta do something.” Yes! But let’s review our options first!
George Bush isn’t sending our soldiers all over the world to protect American or any other innocent lives. This becomes obvious when we realize that the U.S. military has killed more innocent civilians in Afghanistan than were killed in the World Trade Center, and that the family members of these innocent civilians are more devoted to anti-American ‘terrorism’ than ever before.
The only way to stop ‘terrorism’ is to stop raping and destroying the places ‘terrorists’ are from.

The real reason for sending our soldiers-
1- There is an OIL pipeline soon going into Afghanistan that has been long planned, but that the Taliban would not allow U.S. companies to build.
2- Iraq is sitting on top of one of the richest OIL fields in the world.
The truth is that George Bush is risking our soldiers and killing foreign innocents so that he can STEAL OIL.


The U.S. military is being used to steal this Oil. But our military does not exist to murder people so that the American rich can steal these dead people’s resources. It exists to protect our country and our lives. The government and corporations have bastardized our military away from us, endangering us and our soldiers for their own monetary gain.
They’ve been doing it for a long time.
But many veterans, after leaving the service, step back and look at U.S. foreign policy to see it for what it is.
As a response to President Reagan’s imperialistic attacks throughout Central America in the 1980’s, Charles J. Liteky, veteran and holder of the Congressional Medal of Honor, publicly renounced and returned his Medal. The Congressional Medal of Honor is the most coveted, highest possible honor a U.S. service-person can receive, and Liteky basically said, ‘If this is what our military is about, then I don’t want it.’
But even further back than that-
Major General Smedley Butler, a U.S. Marine, looked back on his 33-year career, which took him to combat in over 5 different countries, and determined that, “War is a racket… conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the very many.”
Smedley Butler attained the highest rank possible at the time and was awarded two Congressional Medals of Honor throughout his career. Once he retired, though, he realized and publicly stated that he had given all those years and sweat and blood, simply to make foreign lands safe for Wall Street. Butler proclaimed, “To Hell with War!” and went on to state that to get rid of War we must take the profit out of War.

I, myself, am an Army veteran, not so well-decorated as the Gentlemen I mention. Nevertheless, I am a graduate of the U.S. Army Ranger School, Airborne School, and Jungle Operations Training School.

The American government is violent all over the world to protect its ill-gotten money and goods.
But the American People don’t have the right to profit off foreign deaths and silently enjoy our position, then scream bloody murder when those foreigners react to our violence with violence.
If we refuse to recognize what our government is doing and why, if we refuse to realize that American lives are no more, and no less, valuable than other nation’s, then we deserve the ‘terrorism’ that we are forcing these people to commit.


So our government is sold out to corporations, and corporations are destroying the world.
Let’s do something about it!
Which is why I incorporated in the State of New Hampshire. The New Hampshire State Constitution, in the Bill of Rights, guarantees the Right to Revolution. I quote-

“Government being instituted for the common benefit, protection, and security of the whole community and not for the private interest or emolument of any one man, family, or class of men; therefore, whenever the ends of government are perverted, and public liberty manifestly endangered and all other means of redress are ineffectual the people may and of right ought to reform the old or establish a new government. The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power and oppression is absurd, slavish and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.”

I’m going to utilize the WTO’s tactic of applying to a foreign state the laws of the state in which I was incorporated.
I encourage everyone else to do the same.
I’m opening the board of directors of Proud and Insolent Youth Inc. to anyone who wants to be a part. It’s your corporation. There are an infinite amount of stocks and they’re all free. Anyone can have one; you don’t even need a certificate.
Proud and Insolent Youth Inc. is the corporation to destroy all other corporations. Our mission statement- Whoever abuses their corporate immunity to harm life and liberty, we will destroy through the use of our own corporate immunity.

It’s foolish to whine to politicians while allowing them and the police to bluff and bully you.
Let their oppression fuel your fire. Allow your passions to fertilize the seeds of constructive revolution. Allow your love of freedom to overcome the false values they place on human life. It’s too easy to forget the controlling things that corporations and the government do and lapse into apathy. Stop forgetting right now.

Recognize that the ‘Justice System’ always either kills justice or leaves it sitting too long, stealing away our lives while we wait. We have other things to do with our lives! We came into this world, not only to make it a good place to live, but also to live in it.
There are many different ways to effectively resist, both violent and nonviolent. Both are necessary. Don’t do anything you’re uncomfortable with, and don’t pressure anyone else into anything they’re uncomfortable with.

You have the power to nonviolently shut everything down! You can simply stop. No buses, no factories. A Nationwide Strike until corporations come out from behind their shields and the government meets your demands.
You must all join together and work together for this! Young and Old! Gay and Straight! Men and Women! Races of every description!
It is time to put ourselves out there on the line and risk to reach out for the Paradise we all desire. We can make this world better!
Young people of America!- I am here to tell you- you will not grow up and suddenly realize that you were wrong and that all the older people, who are sold out to the system, were right. Teenagers!- that impulse for freedom that you feel within yourselves, which everyone else seems to be trying to silence- it is not simply a product of your age, as so many would have you believe, it is Life, tugging at you, asking you to actually be Alive! The systems of control that surround you, which you hate, do not get better as you age. The control gets more invasive, more complete. Smash it while your youth still helps you to see it!

Everyone!- Remember that the authorities will lie to you. They will try to make you distrust one another. Trust each other in spite of the disinformation they feed you. Don’t believe any rumors you hear until they are confirmed. Different views and different tactics are okay, but communicate with one another! Especially when you are two autonomous groups collaborating. Communicate and don’t believe rumors.
Communicate with the liberal press, and with indymedia.
This system of oppression is not a solid unstoppable force. They just have really good reflexes and are good at the game. It feels unstoppable because you don’t know how they operate. Learn. Study them. Follow them. Photograph them. Don’t just call them apparitions and give up trying to understand them.
Spy on the spies.
Convert them. Convert the soldiers, the cops.
They are all intelligent, capable people.
Most of them aren’t aware of these injustices, or fight to convince themselves that they’re not there, so that they can still do their jobs. Help them see. Help them come to your side. They’ll make powerful allies.
All police and all soldiers and all spooks are frustrated with their jobs. Their leaders weigh them down with paperwork, and never deploy them to the hilt of their capabilities. They are all dissatisfied with the ways their out-of-touch leaders command them about. These foot soldiers simply want to be strong, and have accepted the official politics handed to them. Give them better politics and better strength. Offer them a better world and they will come over.


Manifest the World you want to live in!
Do this for yourselves.
If this be treason, make the most of it.


And finally, I must address Mister Bush, the one in the Oval Office-

Mister Bush,

The Presidential election process in our country has been taken away from the American people. Through the combined existence of the electoral college and the campaign funding process, it is guaranteed that any candidate actually willing to care for the good of the people will never get elected. Beyond this, even within the confines of this system, you were never actually elected with a popular vote from the American people.
Please set in place a democratic, beneficial election system and step down from the Presidency. Al Gore, who was popularly elected through this flawed system, shall serve as the temporary President until a True Representative of the People is determined.






God Bless Us, Every One,

Andy
neat-o
by jefe
Monday Nov 25th, 2002 9:09 PM
Well done. Send it to all the IMCs, media, outlets of communication and rage -- wa-hoo.
heheheehhahahahahahahaha
by WhizWart
Monday Nov 25th, 2002 10:38 PM
First off, I don't think you really killed a cop. No one who actually did that would be that stupid as to put it on the net. If you did, I hope you fry. Plain and simple, a life for a life. Second, I just wanna say this. You guys always talk about change, so do it! I don't mean chaining your self to some stupid gas station or McDonald's. Run for government. Change it from the inside. Start on the local level and work your way up. Middle AMerica sees your sorry ass on tv chained to a store and thinks your lazy cause your protesting a 2 cent decrese in coffee prices while they go work REAL jobs. Get a campign, a message, and take a bath and they may take you seroiusly. Oh, and I agree corparate america sucks, but most people work and buy from them.....so whats your plan if we get em outta the way, hm? Commuism? hehe, that worked SO well.
"ladies and gentlemen...
by this thing here
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 8:00 AM
... the president of the united states of america, george w. bush II! and by his side this morning, the american association of corporations!"

"now, if you will direct your immediate attention to the central podium, a spokesman for the AAC, dick waver, will proceed with his remarks..."

"ahhh, good morning. ladies and gentlemen. friends and colleages. mr. president.

i am here this morning to dispel the vile evil in the speech you've read above you. it concerns us all here, including the president, that you might believe what that vile and unfortunate speech has said.

let me begin by being as clear as i possibly can. that speech is one gigantic falsehood. the whole of it is an evil lie, created by a traitor to the american cause. and...

i'm sorry, i just get very worked up about this kind of, terrible, vile, trash...

and... and it's your duty, ladies and gentlemen, fellow americans, to not believe one word of it.

we, your ruling class... wait, i mean, ahh... your fellow citizens, would never do the kind of things that vile speech mentioned. trust us, will you? trust us, because we are your friends, and we love you.

it is true that america has changed. we can see these changes all around us, everyday. my colleagues here beside me, and president george bush, want you to understand that america isn't as it used to be. we all no longer live in a democracy. we all no longer live in a capitalist state, like the kind of ages past. america has moved beyong these old terms. america has evolved into something new. america has become a plutocratic corporatist state. and this change is for the better...

this change is for the better because now, corporations, the ones that bring you smiles and french fries and cars, have become as strong as the government. let me put it this way: we, the corporations, have merged with the u.s. government, in the greatest business deal ever for the american people.

instead of an evil government telling you what to do, now america has the friendly faces of its patriotic corporations telling it what to do. what foreign policy to have. what wars to fight. what problems to tackle. now, you, the american people, have your friendly neighborhood corporations telling you what kind of car to drive, how expensive your medicine will have to be, how polluted your water will be, how low your wages will be, how safe your work environment won't be.

you see, this is the essence of a corporatist state. we, your friendly, caring, corporations, have assumed many of the powers of a government. we have organized society into our image. we have made it more efficient. we have made prices drop. we are the new government, and we are making a better world!

and on top of all this, we also have a plutocracy. and this, my fellow american citizens, is something you should all take pride in. we, being the wealthy, are smarter than than the rest of you. we come from better stock. we have more power than all you small gutter snipes, laborers, janitors, worthless house maids... umm, ahh, sorry, i mean, the rest of you people.

so because of these special gifts endowed to us, it is natural that we should assume governing responsibilty, is it not? would all of you uneducated hordes disagree with me? are you saying that all in america, rich and poor, this race or that race, should have a say? ahhhh, but you see, that is the old america. that america no longer exists. it's time to look forward to new and brighter future...

... and the new future is here, ladies and gentlemen. our new plutocratic corporatist state is fully supported by president bush, and his party, which now have complete control of government. and let me tell you, even some on the democratic side are coming around to our way of thinking.

with the merging of corporate and government power, we shall be able to do as we please. all for the betterment of this country, and the world. we shall be able to turn all the rules to our benefit. we shall be able to turn a watchdog agency into a booster agency for a corporation or an industry. we shall be able to write the rules so that WE, and not the rest of you small people, shall be protected. we sahll be able to look the other way with impugnity. we shall use the machinery of government, its military powers and its surveillance powers, to protect US FIRST, and then maybe the rest of you small people. we shall use our mighty armed forces to control this world, to make our corporations safe on foreign shores. we shall entrench our power, and shall circle the wagons against the hordes like you, and fend off all who are foolish enough to stand in our way.

as, unfortunately, the author of the speech above was. but this author does not understand a few, very, very important things. and they both involve the american way.

first, it IS the american way for there to be special rules for special people. we all know this. we all know that some get caviar justice, and some get stale bread justice. this is something that we, as americans, should feel proud of. it ensures that the right kind of justice is done for the right kind of person. we can't afford having the wealthy locked away in prison. prison is for the common man.

secondly, it IS the american way that if you make a lot of money, it automatically means that everything you're doing is o.k. many, unfortunate, uneducated, small people don't realize this. but the time has come for you to awake!

if a corporation makes billions in profit by outsourcing labor to the cheapest possible place on the face of the earth, where workers work 14 hour days in unsafe conditions making cents an hour, ALL THAT PROFIT MAKES IT O.K.! it's true!

if a corporation must use a dangerous toxin in a manufacturing process, because the safer alternative is too expensive, and over time, this toxin leeches into ground water and causes cancer and birth defects in the surrounding community, ALL THAT PROFIT MAKES IT O.K.! you see, with happy stockholders, and huge profit margins, nobody gives a fuck about playing straight, integrity, honor, honesty, justice, or any of those other old, outdated, and i might add, very 20th. century values. we have moved beyond that. we are in the 21st. century. and a new age has dawned.

so, ladies and gentlemen, friends and colleagues, mr. president, i shall conclude by saying that you have a choice to make. you can follow the lies and falsehoods of the speech above. or you can join us, as we prepare to take america INTO A NEW FUTURE HORIZON!
Your stupid
by ********
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 9:43 AM
You should go to hell
You are a total loser...
by Ben
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 9:44 AM
Nice job you moron...lay in wait like the coward that you are and whack a cop filling up his car with gae,shot from behind...like the tiny podunk town of Red Bluff Ca is a hotbed of police state tactics...who are you trying to kid?. You're just another sorry, pathetic, loser punk who's just wasted their life...do you think you've made a difference in the world? Maybe to the 18 month old child you just left without a father?...I hope you have a few years to reflect on your misery on death row before the government slips that long needle into your pathetic, deserving arm...and you end up where you belong...piss on you.
Calif. Cop-Slay Suspect Caught in N.H.
by *****
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 9:54 AM
Calif. Cop-Slay Suspect Caught in N.H.
hmmm...
by this thing here
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 10:00 AM
here is a posting and comments from the DC IMC newswire:

>IMC-er turns dangerous rhetoric into murderous deed?
by KCBS listener 12:04pm Tue Nov 26 '02 (Modified on 12:36pm Tue Nov 26 '02)


Say it isn't so, SF-IMC -- is the Andrew McCrae post genuine?

I just heard on News Radio 740 (KCBS) that a young man was arrested for the murder off a police officer after posting a confession to a web site.

Is this the real deal? Is this the young man and the web site referred to in the news report?

If so, who alerted the authorities to this post? Was it a member of the SF-IMC staff, a concerned reader, or an officer on "web patrol"?

Lastly, how bitterly ironic to have the corporate media scoop the IMC network over the arrest by an IMC poster (perhaps are there legal reasons for the "no comment" by SF-IMC?)

http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/11/1545326_co...<

add your own comments



>So You're the one spamming all the lists
by Fact Checker 12:11pm Tue Nov 26 '02



With a story that you have no sources on, about an alleged murder of a police officer, not reported on by ANYBODY else.
Hmmmmm.... What's your real agenda?<


>could be true...
by read the paper 12:36pm Tue Nov 26 '02



a police officer was killed in red bluff while refueling his patrol car in the middle of the night,and was found shot in the head next to his car.

check out

http://www.redbluffdaily.com

or do a little web search. i have no info that anyone was arrested.<

who's playing the game here? i don't know who's being serious, or who's spamming...


Fry
by Mr Whiz
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 10:01 AM
I think you got some major problems that you need help with.
Freak
by Mr Whiz
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 10:17 AM
Your a freak for what you did and I hope you burn in hell.
I mean what kind of punk would kill a loving man and loving father. I live in Red bluff and I can't wait to see what happens to when you get to red bluff
Arrested in New Hampshire
by .
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 10:17 AM
Andrew McCrae was arrested in New Hampshire for the murder of officer David Mobilio.

Story link:

http://www.sacbee.com/content/news/story/5372486p-6360638c.html
It is indeed real
by Poster
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 10:18 AM
This story is indeed real. Andrew McCrae is currently cornered in a hotel in New Hampshire (if he has not been arrested yet). This is truly a disturbing story here.

http://www.ctnow.com/news/custom/newsat3/hc-policeap1126,0,4806149.story?coll=hc-headlines-newsat3
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2002/11/26/state1024EST0049.DTL
Activist
by Daryle Lamont Jenkins
( subverter [at] onepeoplesproject.com ) Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 10:25 AM
Personally, I think killing of cops is cool

Daryle
Pissed off in Red Bluff
by Pissed Off
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 10:27 AM

Fuck The Police

The police can harrass people, break down doors and kill people and get away with it. As far as I'm concerned they can all go to hell. I would not go out and shoot them but I will not lose any sleep when they are killed. They know the risks. I have actually heard a police officer who was very drunk in a bar say he could drive home because he has the "BRASS PASS". Then if he would have crashed and killed someone he would have gotten away with it. What happend to law inforcement being held to higher standards.

Fuck The Police

preventive medicine
by abc
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 10:29 AM
Hey FBI, save yourself some time and arrest "Nessie" at SF-IMC while your at it. Read some of the stuff he's written if you haven't already. Trust me, he'll be the next one to pull the trigger.
.......
by .......
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 11:39 AM
So Nessie, is this more of that "black propaganda" that you're always spouting off about?
From Red Bluff
by Christine
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 12:05 PM
I don't know where to begin. I Live in Red Bluff, CA and personall knew Officer Mobilio. He was a very kind man and worked with the Elementary Schools DARE programs. He was married and had a 19 month old son. How can any one human being think that he can play GOD!!!????????? What gives you the right to just decide that someone innocent needs to die so you can bullshit about something you don't even know. Your Corporation will do you no good, it isn't a debt......ITS MURDER!!!!!!
PISSED OFF
by California Girl
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 12:05 PM
Yes, the idiot really did kill a cop. Then the idiot posts it online to get caught. Sad, because this moron SOUNDS like he has good thoughts and ideas that are right on the money. It's sad to waste a good brain with stupidity . I live where he killed the cop. I find no justification for ending a life that had SHIT to do with this cause. The man had a family. Friends. And was ONLY IN HIS EARLY 30s. What a stupid thing to do Andy (though you can't read this, as you will be on death row soon I am SURE). Stupid phuk. What a waste of a God given ability to speak eloquently and to convey BRIGHT ideas ... in such a senseless and irresponsible way. Sad indeed.
Human Being
by Mike
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 12:05 PM
What a poor excuse for a man. For a person for that matter. Gutless. Heartless. Thoughtless. Scumbag!
Human Being
by Mike
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 12:11 PM
What a poor excuse for a man. For a person for that matter. Gutless. Heartless. Thoughtless. Scumbag!
Stupid waste..
by California Girl
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 12:11 PM
Yes, the idiot really did kill a cop. Then the idiot posts it online to get caught. Sad, because this moron SOUNDS like he has good thoughts and ideas that are right on the money. It's sad to waste a good brain with stupidity . I live where he killed the cop. I find no justification for ending a life that had SHIT to do with this cause. The man had a family. Friends. And was ONLY IN HIS EARLY 30s. What a stupid thing to do Andy (though you can't read this, as you will be on death row soon I am SURE). Stupid phuk. What a waste of a God given ability to speak eloquently and to convey BRIGHT ideas ... in such a senseless and irresponsible way. Sad indeed.
Killer
by Chris Stevens
( s3wsteve [at] rbuhsd.k12.ca.us ) Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 12:16 PM
look what you caused you waste of freakin skin!!! You have hurt someone that was doing their job to protect us and you shall die!!!! You're a disgrace to the human race.
WHY HIM?
by Brooke, Natasha, Kristi
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 12:16 PM
As Red Bluff High students,

Dont you know Red Bluff people carry guns
you better watch your ass when you come to Red Bluff
and dont even worry about the death penalty becasue you will be dead before you even go to court if you even have the chance to go and thats not a threat its a PROMISE!!!!
SF Indymedia Turns Tables on Associated Press
by gkd
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 12:31 PM
The Associated Press contacted SF Indymedia to find out about this kid who killed a cop in Red Bluff. But I had some questions of my own about the blood on AP's hands.

Clay Haswell Speaks (or not) on Associated Press Priorities in San Francisco
by gkd/sf-imc • Tuesday November 26, 2002 at 12:28 PM
http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/11/1545491.php


poor victim of envirofraud
by Chuck
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 12:32 PM
This poor asshole who killed the Red Bluff officer is obviously a victim of the enviro movement misinformation network. Police Officers are very foregiving people.
You killed the innocent
by Mahony
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 12:33 PM
God bless Everyone you say? All but the innocent ones you shoot. Never has anyone got their point across by killing people. You are a common terrorist.
Ahh the irony
by Trophyrebellion
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 12:43 PM
How interesting. Of course murder is wrong. Of course justice shall be served? But will his message be heard? I only hope it changes the mind of one person. An innocent is killed, do we see the connection "andy" was talking about? Can we see past this "vile act" for just one second? "An eye for an eye, and the world goes blind."
Hopefully this "Andy" realizes he is perpetuating such an ideal, however, must he "fry" for what he "supposedly did?" He's only a suspect, can we not forget this? INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY and yet we are all putting him in the chair already. Take a step back, re-read what he wrote, and make some connections. For our own sakes....
Ms.
by Laura Ledesma
( LrLdsm [at] hotmail.com ) Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 12:52 PM
I hope I have the day off on the day you are brought back to Red Bluff. I want to be in that angry mob. My husband ran into you at the fairgrounds and has been in fear for his life since the incident. You are spineless. What about his wife and child? He has a baby for God's sake. He was a DARE officer and the kids all knew him, so you've scarred innocent children as well as Dave's family and the community. You will rot in hell.
From Red Bluff
by Bubba
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 12:53 PM
This police officer you killed idiot was a peacful loving human, out on the streets protecting us from trash like you! If you ever get a chance to visit us in Red Bluff , I would love to take you to the annual bull sale. There, me and the good ole boys could show you what we think of corporate cop killers. No never mind! You just deserve to fry slowly in the electric chair.
not connected with sf.indymedia
by cp
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 1:21 PM
He's insane. imc provides a platform for people of all stripes until the editing crew gets around to deleting the spam, so he is not affiliated with sf.indymedia.

There is a small editing crew and often they only get around to removing stuff that breaks the stated policy maybe twice a day. They work behind computer firewalls at work and can't spend all day removing stuff.
Bubba and Co.
by WTF
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 1:21 PM
"..out on the streets protecting us from trash like you!"

Protecting you? That's a laugh.....

THE POLICE ARE NOT OBLIGATED TO PROTECT ANY INDIVIDUAL PERSON FROM HARM

This section serves to illuminate the existence of bad Police policy, anti-rights legislation, a domestic threat, and poor judicial remedy. The following true story is unacceptable, intolerable, and must be prevented from re-occurring ...

"Ruth Brunell called the police on 20 different occasions to beg for protection from her husband. He was arrested only one time. One evening Mr. Brunell telephoned his wife and told her he was coming over to kill her. When she called the police, they refused her request that they come to protect her. They told her to call back when he got there. Mr. Brunell stabbed his wife to death before she could call the police to tell them he was there. The court held that the San Jose police were not liable for ignoring Mrs. Brunell's pleas for help. Hartzler v. City of San Jose, (1975) 46 Cal.App. 3d 6. The year after winning the Hartzler case, the San Jose government appointed Joseph McNamara Police Chief. Chief McNamara has since become the leading police spokesman for Handgun Control, Inc. (HCI)." Excerpt from "The Law Abiding Individual and Personal Protection", by John Brophy. (Forward and emphasis added)

This is an appropriate time to point out that Chief Joe McNamara had a firm policy not to issue permits to Carry Concealed Weapons (CCW) to non-law enforcement officers, with exception shown through a permit he allegedly issued to his daughter. Chief McNamara is also alleged to have kept an automatic submachine gun in the trunk of his vehicle. Apparently he felt he needed it, but not anyone else. Does anyone else smell the characteristic stench of hypocrisy?

Mr. Brophy proceeds to provide substantial case-study to show similar judgments in other jurisdictions throughout the United States:
Bowers v. DeVito, (1982) 686 F.2d 616. (No federal constitutional requirements that police provide protection.)
Calgorides v. Mobile, (1985) 475 So.2d 560.
Davidson v. Westminister, (1982) 32 Cal.3d 197, 185 Cal.Rep. 252.
Stone v. State, (1980) 106 Cal.App. 3d 924, 165 Cal.Rep. 339.
Morgan v. District of Columbia, (1983) 468 A.2d 1306.
Warren v. District of Columbia, (1983) 444 A.2d 1.
Sapp v. Tallahassee, (1977) 348 So.2d 363, cert. denied 354 So.2d 985.
Keane v. Chicago, (1968) 98 ILL.App.2d 460, 240 N.E.2d 321.
Jamison v. Chicago, (1977) 48 ILL.App.3d 567.
Simpson's Food Fair v. Evansville, 272 N.E.2d 871.
Silver v. Minneapolis, (1969) 170 N.W.2d 206.
Wuetrich v. Delia, (1978) 155 N.J.Super. 324, 382 A.2d 929.
Chapman v. Philadelphia, (1981) 290 Pa.Super. 281, 434 A.2d 753.
Morris v. Musser, (1984) 84 Pa.Cmwth. 170, 478 A.2d 937.
Weiner v. Metropolitan Authority, and Shernov v. New York Transit Authority, (1982) 55 N.Y. 2d 175, 948 N.Y.S. 141.
DeShaney v. Winnebago County Social Services, 489 U.S. 189, 196, 197 (1989).

"The law is abundantly clear. Police have no duty to protect an individual from harm ... Each person is responsible for their own safety and protection from criminal harm, and for the safety and protection of their dependents." - John Brophy

But doesn't just about every Law Enforcement Agency's "Mission Statement" include the words "... to serve and protect ...." ? So then protect what? Obviously it isn't the people . . .

Way to go
by Roswell
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 1:24 PM
Way to go. I couldn't have said it better! Wake up people - this is reality - this is true. Those who dont believe it are blinded by the topics the post points out. There are countless other stories buried in the country just like this. There are lots of other people who feel the same way - I do! I shared this at work - we have to agree that he makes a valid point.
Moron
by Sharon
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 1:24 PM
You truly are an idiot! I grew up in the 60's in S.F. during Haigh Ashbury, Berkeley, etc. You need to face reality. Take a chill pill. Too bad so sad because now your reality is prison. Too bad you didn't use your intelligence in a more constructive way. Destroying lives puts you right up there with terrorists. Bubba will take care of you.
Way to go
by Roswell
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 1:24 PM
Way to go. I couldn't have said it better! Wake up people - this is reality - this is true. Those who dont believe it are blinded by the topics the post points out. There are countless other stories buried in the country just like this. there are lots of other people who feel the same way - I do! I shared this at work - we have to agree that he makes a valid point.
Dear Bubba (Gump) and Co.
by WTF
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 1:24 PM
"...out on the streets protecting us from trash like you!"

Protecting who?

THE POLICE ARE NOT OBLIGATED TO PROTECT ANY INDIVIDUAL PERSON FROM HARM

Bowers v. DeVito, (1982) 686 F.2d 616. (No federal constitutional requirements that police provide protection.)
Calgorides v. Mobile, (1985) 475 So.2d 560.
Davidson v. Westminister, (1982) 32 Cal.3d 197, 185 Cal.Rep. 252.
Stone v. State, (1980) 106 Cal.App. 3d 924, 165 Cal.Rep. 339.
Morgan v. District of Columbia, (1983) 468 A.2d 1306.
Warren v. District of Columbia, (1983) 444 A.2d 1.
Sapp v. Tallahassee, (1977) 348 So.2d 363, cert. denied 354 So.2d 985.
Keane v. Chicago, (1968) 98 ILL.App.2d 460, 240 N.E.2d 321.
Jamison v. Chicago, (1977) 48 ILL.App.3d 567.
Simpson's Food Fair v. Evansville, 272 N.E.2d 871.
Silver v. Minneapolis, (1969) 170 N.W.2d 206.
Wuetrich v. Delia, (1978) 155 N.J.Super. 324, 382 A.2d 929.
Chapman v. Philadelphia, (1981) 290 Pa.Super. 281, 434 A.2d 753.
Morris v. Musser, (1984) 84 Pa.Cmwth. 170, 478 A.2d 937.
Weiner v. Metropolitan Authority, and Shernov v. New York Transit Authority, (1982) 55 N.Y. 2d 175, 948 N.Y.S. 141.
DeShaney v. Winnebago County Social Services, 489 U.S. 189, 196, 197 (1989).

"The law is abundantly clear. Police have no duty to protect an individual from harm ... Each person is responsible for their own safety and protection from criminal harm, and for the safety and protection of their dependents." - John Brophy

But doesn't just about every Law Enforcement Agency's "Mission Statement" include the words "... to serve and protect ...." ? So then protect what? Obviously it isn't the people . . .

"All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others..."
Moron
by Sharon
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 1:24 PM
You truly are an idiot! I grew up in the 60's in S.F. during Haigh Ashbury, Berkeley, etc. You need to face reality. Take a chill pill. Too bad so sad because now your reality is prison. Too bad you didn't use your intelligence in a more constructive way. Destroying lives puts you right up there with terrorists. Bubba will take care of you.
Moron
by Sharon
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 1:24 PM
You truly are an idiot! I grew up in the 60's in S.F. during Haigh Ashbury, Berkeley, etc. You need to face reality. Take a chill pill. Too bad so sad because now your reality is prison. Too bad you didn't use your intelligence in a more constructive way. Destroying lives puts you right up there with terrorists. Bubba will take care of you.
Dear Bubba (Gump) and Co.
by WTF
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 1:32 PM
"...out on the streets protecting us from trash like you!"

Protecting who?

THE POLICE ARE NOT OBLIGATED TO PROTECT ANY INDIVIDUAL PERSON FROM HARM

Bowers v. DeVito, (1982) 686 F.2d 616. (No federal constitutional requirements that police provide protection.)
Calgorides v. Mobile, (1985) 475 So.2d 560.
Davidson v. Westminister, (1982) 32 Cal.3d 197, 185 Cal.Rep. 252.
Stone v. State, (1980) 106 Cal.App. 3d 924, 165 Cal.Rep. 339.
Morgan v. District of Columbia, (1983) 468 A.2d 1306.
Warren v. District of Columbia, (1983) 444 A.2d 1.
Sapp v. Tallahassee, (1977) 348 So.2d 363, cert. denied 354 So.2d 985.
Keane v. Chicago, (1968) 98 ILL.App.2d 460, 240 N.E.2d 321.
Jamison v. Chicago, (1977) 48 ILL.App.3d 567.
Simpson's Food Fair v. Evansville, 272 N.E.2d 871.
Silver v. Minneapolis, (1969) 170 N.W.2d 206.
Wuetrich v. Delia, (1978) 155 N.J.Super. 324, 382 A.2d 929.
Chapman v. Philadelphia, (1981) 290 Pa.Super. 281, 434 A.2d 753.
Morris v. Musser, (1984) 84 Pa.Cmwth. 170, 478 A.2d 937.
Weiner v. Metropolitan Authority, and Shernov v. New York Transit Authority, (1982) 55 N.Y. 2d 175, 948 N.Y.S. 141.
DeShaney v. Winnebago County Social Services, 489 U.S. 189, 196, 197 (1989).

"The law is abundantly clear. Police have no duty to protect an individual from harm ... Each person is responsible for their own safety and protection from criminal harm, and for the safety and protection of their dependents." - John Brophy

But doesn't just about every Law Enforcement Agency's "Mission Statement" include the words "... to serve and protect ...." ? So then protect what? Obviously it isn't the people . . .

"All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others..."
from Cottonwood, Ca.
by Don
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 1:43 PM
Your, not worth the powder it takes to blow you to hell !!!
p.s. hope i'm on the jury. cottonwood,ca.Don.
Mrs
by Terry Lane
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 2:01 PM
What happened to Dave Mobilio is evil. I call him Dave Mobilio instead of Officer Mobilio because we need to remember him as a fellow human being, with people that loved and needed him. The problem with the world today is not just what corporations do. The problem is that there are many evil people that for some insane reason think they have a right to hurt and even murder other people. We all have a right to live in peace, and we need to teach our children that. Forget religion, money, and politics. What happened to love?
"We all have a right to live in peace"
by just wondering
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 2:05 PM
Does that include Iraqis?
renfro
by jen
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 2:06 PM
You should try to come up with current data and stats to back up your argument. First, the incident in San Jose occurred in the 70's. Since then, the legislature has enacted stricter laws covering domestic violence. If that incident were to occur today, it would be handled quite differently. You must remember that law enforcement is bound by the laws that are in place. There are times that they take no action, not because they don't want to, but because the laws don't allow them to. Also, all of the cases you listed, on average, are over twenty years old. Welcome to the new millennium. Next time, come to the plate with current information.
Protest
by J. Dahlquist
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 2:47 PM
IMC provide a place for the wannabes to act out their fantasies of being reporters and somehow important. At least the mass media tries to vette their sources, but IMC's just go with what every junk that comes up.

McCrae may....or may not....be the murderer of David Mobillo. Either way, McCrae is a pathetic person. If he is the murderer, he may get his New Hampshire wish -- Live Free or Die! If he just capitalized on the murder, he did it for his own ego.

His diatribe reminds of the Uni-Bomber -- in its simplistic and myopic view of the world.

If McCrae did murder the officer, he didn't do it for the sake of the world, he did it because he is twisted and has no principles or integrity.

McCrae's declaration is typical of a small group of demented persons who can justify any act by blaming society.

The murderer of Officer Mobillo is probably just like the Beltway Sniper(s) -- cold, callous killer(s) purposely killing innocent persons in cold-blood. Matters not if it was for money or for politics, it still is a senseless act by someone who has no concerns for others.

It will be interesting how this turns out.

Isn't anarchy wonderful?
USEFUL IDIOT TO COP-KILLER
by VAN
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 2:58 PM
Congratulations - You've now graduated from useful idiot to cop killer! I've been a police officer for 13 years. In that time I've been shot at, punched, kicked and verbally assaulted. I've also saved more than a few lives, interrupted countless crimes of violence, and taken countless violent criminals off the street. I've had three good friends killed in the line of duty doing the same job I do . . .yet I continue to serve my community proudly because I BELIEVE IN WHAT I'M DOING!! By the way, I'm not rich, priveleged or incorporated. You will undoubtedly be afforded the benefit of a well-educated, highly paid attorney (free of charge), endless appeals and accolades from other useful idiots like yourself. It's ironic, the same "police state tactics" you rail against will now afford you rights and priveleges you saw fit to deprive Officer Mobilio of when you gunned him down. I pray that in passing judgement on you, Mr. McCrae, that the courts see fit to "dispense with all sentimentality".
The larger question
by Adult Supervisor
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 3:08 PM
The larger question, of course, would be whether Indymedia acts as an incubator for someone like this.

Does he find reinforcement here for his 'anti-authority vews,' and does he feel encouraged and emboldened by what he considers 'his allies?"

Consider the fact that we do see a lot of seemingly angry posts here, with phrases like 'fuck the cops' being common rhetoric.

Anger, insolence, and reactionary behavior. Monkey see - monkey do.
UNFORGIVEN
by LETAPU
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 3:19 PM
WE HAVE A MAN WHO IS TWISTED IN EVERY POSSIBLE WAY. MAYBE IN A DIFFERENT LIFE TIME THIS WOULD BE SOMETHING I WOULD BELIEVE IN. I AM NOT CLOSED MINDED TO HIS THEORY. IF MCRAE REALLY BELIEVED IN THIS, THAN WHY USE VIOLENCE TO CONDEM YOUR BELIEF. STRONG WORDS COULD OF BEEN ENOUGH. PEOPLE DO LISTEN. FOR MCRAE TO DECIDE THAT COP'S DESTINY, HAS NO PLACE HERE ON EARTH. NOR IN PARADISE. MCRAE, MENTIONED THAT RICH PEOPLE ARE GETTING RICHER AND WE ARE PAYING FOR IT. WELL DID YOU EVER THINK THAT THE OFFICER YOU KILLED, WAS ONE OF THE POOR PEOPLE JUST TRYING TO MAKE A LIVING FOR HIM AND HIS FAMILY. ANY PUNISHMENT YOU HAVE COMING TO YOU HERE IN THIS LIFE TIME. HAS NOTHING COMPARE TO WHAT THE LORD HAS INSTALL FOR YOU.
UNFORGIVEN
by LETAPU
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 3:19 PM
WE HAVE A MAN WHO IS TWISTED IN EVERY POSSIBLE WAY. MAYBE IN A DIFFERENT LIFE TIME THIS WOULD BE SOMETHING I WOULD BELIEVE IN. I AM NOT CLOSED MINDED TO HIS THEORY. IF MCRAE REALLY BELIEVED IN THIS, THAN WHY USE VIOLENCE TO CONDEM YOUR BELIEF. STRONG WORDS COULD OF BEEN ENOUGH. PEOPLE DO LISTEN. FOR MCRAE TO DECIDE THAT COP'S DESTINY, HAS NO PLACE HERE ON EARTH. NOR IN PARADISE. MCRAE, MENTIONED THAT RICH PEOPLE ARE GETTING RICHER AND WE ARE PAYING FOR IT. WELL DID YOU EVER THINK THAT THE OFFICER YOU KILLED, WAS ONE OF THE POOR PEOPLE JUST TRYING TO MAKE A LIVING FOR HIM AND HIS FAMILY. ANY PUNISHMENT YOU HAVE COMING TO YOU HERE IN THIS LIFE TIME. HAS NOTHING COMPARE TO WHAT THE LORD HAS INSTALL FOR YOU.
Yes
by Maarten Schenk
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 3:23 PM
Yes it includes Iraqi people... that's why Saddam needs to be shot, you idiot!
i feel sorry for you
by butterfly
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 3:28 PM
you poor pathetic scumbag..i bet your mommy and daddy molested you as a child, and your daddy made you do naughty things to him. your parents hated you because you were ugly, dumb, and a loser. you were only good for one thing, and that was getting your dad off every night. no one could ever be fond of you. after seeing a picture of you, i realized you are ugly on the outside too. you will die for what you did to Dave. I have lived in red bluff for 27 years and someone here will kill you before the court system gets to you. you have this cowardly web page because you know no one will listen to you. you left linda and luke without there loved one. what would you know about LOVE. no one in their right mind would give you the time of day. when you are killed do you think anyone will honestly care. i hardly think so. you are waste.
Shit shut up and and shovel
by @
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 3:38 PM
thats what the boys will do to ya, if they get their hands on you when you back to Red Bluff!
Hey, Usama's Little Brother Andy
by sam
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 3:41 PM
You made a Widow and a Orphan for a sick reason.
Shame on you !
I bet You have a Arafat and Hitler poster in your room or jail cell.
Anyways, I hope they miss your vien a few times.
Allah Bless You.
Cops in Los Angeles Get Away with Murder Today
by How Ironic
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 3:44 PM
I WONDER WHY THE FUCKING MEDIA ISNT TALKING ABOUT THESE KILLERS --- MAYBE BECAUSE THEY ARE FUCKING COPS?????

Los Angles County Dist. Atty. Steve Cooley announced Monday that dozens of cases against officers implicated in the LAPD (news - web sites)'s Rampart Division scandal would not result in criminal prosecution.

Cooley said he made the decision based on his review of 82 Rampart-related cases that detectives submitted to prosecutors.

The district attorney's office decided to not prosecute the cases because of insufficient evidence and because the statute of limitations had expired. Further, many of the cases involved the two main players in the scandal -- Rafael Perez and Nino Durden -- who had entered into plea bargains that protect them from further prosecution.

Violence is Bad
by troy prouty*
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 3:56 PM
What now has happened is two lives are lost and many people's shattered. If you take things to extremes, you will go crazy.

There could have been something more for Andy, but not anymore, because andy became to inflamed with the current events and knew only violence in his life to solve conflicts of this magnitude.

One of the most needed, least known skills in the world today is conflict resolution. We don’t learn about conflict resolution in school, at home, in the media, or on the streets. We don’t learn it at all, most of us. So we act on impulse, lapsing into fight or flight, turning conflict into combat, perpetuating cycles of misunderstanding and violence in all our interactions, from the interpersonal to the international.

Harsh words and weapons
Bring violence and pain.
The wise leader chooses combat
Only as a last resort.

For in combat even victory
Is no cause for joy.
To gloat in victory
Means delight in destroying others.
In destroying others,
We destroy ourselves.

We are all part of something larger than ourselves, that everything and everyone is intrinsically related. Every violent act constitutes a breakdown of civilization, a violation of the order that unites us all. Working with natural patterns, the leader upholds a new way of resolving conflict, affirming a spirit of partnership and building a foundation of greater understanding.

Conflict has led to division and discord because two common misperceptions have trapped us in fight –or-flight reactions. We overgenalize, seeing whoever disagrees with us as the enemy. In hostile reductionism, we narrow our vision, reducing the richness of human experience to that one thing on which we disagree and then we fight over it. Or we flee from conflict feeling shame and disagreeing. Denying our own concerns, we give in to avoid confrontation. Never communicating our ness, we settle for appeasement and superficial solutions. Either response is dualistic.

Conflict becomes the means for greater understanding –of one another and ourselves. It can create a wall to divide us or a bridge to unite us. The difference lies in how we respond to it.

In the western world, we habitually fall into the logical fallacy of the false dilemma, seeing life either-or win or lose, right or wrong, all or nothing, us or them.

Dualism limits our options and makes us see differences as threatening. Instead of working together to discover solutions to problems, we waste time blaming others. Fixated on the problem, we cannot see beyond it.
Curious
by Did you do it?
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 4:00 PM
Dear Andy,

I wonder about you. You seem to be fairly intelligent, or is just noise you spout to feel self important? In what ways do your admitted actions support your doctrine or even coincide with your beliefs? Are you misguided or just misunderstood? Either way, for as much research as you have labored through, you have failed to consider one very important point. If you truly incorporated yourself, are you even a human being anymore? I offer that you are not, never were, and are in fact the corporation which you so vehemenlty despise. California law is not forgiving.

PS: Corporations are not protected by civil rights and unlike citizens, CAN BE DISOLVED.

Bold is bad
by anonymous tag closer
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 4:24 PM

Your pain
by Steve
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 4:29 PM
You are suffering with paranoid schizophrenia. Please end your pain and kill yourself.
red bluff officer death
by norman bradley
( n.a.2 [at] specialoperations.com ) Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 4:32 PM
this man has ruined a young family's life, saddened a town ,and it hasn't done one thing except satisfy his own selfish delusions. he thinks killing that police officer is going to send a message and change the world. he should go straight to death row!
Bigger Picture
by J. Dahlquist
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 4:38 PM
As far as the LA officers and the dismissal of charges, this is the real world and not a fantasy world that IMCers live in. The charges were mostly brought by one former officer who got caught breaking the law. BTW, he was caught and convicted due to the investigation of the LAPD Internal Affairs department. But, he made out that all the cops were on the take, but then he was caught lying, changing his story, etc.

The bottom line was that LAPD was not nearly as "dirty" as it was presented in the newspapers. BTW, check out the Frontline investigation on these cases and you will be shocked on what they uncovered about the witch hunt that went on in an attempt to build cases.

Why?
by Radical Left
( . ) Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 4:44 PM
Why'd you do that? The guy was just trying to earn a living, raise a family. You're not helping much doing this shit.
Why?
by Radical Left
( . ) Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 4:46 PM
Why'd you do that? The guy was just trying to earn a living, raise a family. You're not helping much doing this shit.
Sad state of affairs
by James
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 4:47 PM
How pathetic. Killing a police officer to make a point! I'm sure you had parents. At least you had the chance to know them. You never gave Officer Mobilio's son that RIGHT.

Why was it that you shot him in the back, then once in the back of the head? Are you not man enough to look a true man in the eye. I'm sure you know, that if you would have faced Officer Mobilio face to face, you would be the loser.

Why didn't you resist your arrest? Aren't you man enough to fight for what you believe in. Or was it that you had to change your shorts when you saw that many Police officers IN FRONT OF YOU!

Being a Police Officer myself, I know that I am not any better than the person next to me. I chose this job. Its rewarding to me. I like arresting people that are VIOLATING the rights of others. We as HUMANS, have the right to live without fear of wackos like yourself. To kill a Police Officer to protest the American Goverment and American Corporations makes absolutely no sense at all.

Do you think that I like what goes on in Politics? Not at all. But im not going to kill an innocent human to protest. I, unlike yourself, am a lot smarter than that!
Its called voting. But then again, you seem to believe that our Democracy is unfair.

You are not God, you do not decide who shall live or die. You are a pathetic form of life who deserves what you have coming to you. I also worked in the California Prison system and let me tell you, a 23 year old white male in prison has a name. and its called Ben Dover!

James

If only it were true
by Mike Winslow
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 5:04 PM
If only this were true Mr. Ironic...
You and your twisted cohort Mccrae would no longer be able to express your opinions...you would be dead
The right honourable
by Tim
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 5:22 PM
40 years ago Singapore, Taiwan, Hong Kong, and South Korea were among the poorest nations in the world. Likewise, Bangladesh, Nigeria, and Loas.

Today, Singapore, Taiwan, Hong Kong, and South Korea are among the wealthiest nations in the world. Bangladesh, Nigeria, and Loas remain among the poorest.

Why? Because Singapore, Taiwan, Hong Kong, and South Korea did something to lift themselves up from third world poverty, something these other nations failed to do.

Anyone who is sincerely interested in how the third world countries today can lift themselves up from poverty will want to know what these successful nations did differently.

What did the successful countries do? Pretty much the exact opposite of what murder-buy suggests.
The right honourable
by Tim
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 5:22 PM
40 years ago Singapore, Taiwan, Hong Kong, and South Korea were among the poorest nations in the world. Likewise, Bangladesh, Nigeria, and Loas.

Today, Singapore, Taiwan, Hong Kong, and South Korea are among the wealthiest nations in the world. Bangladesh, Nigeria, and Loas remain among the poorest.

Why? Because Singapore, Taiwan, Hong Kong, and South Korea did something to lift themselves up from third world poverty, something these other nations failed to do.

Anyone who is sincerely interested in how the third world countries today can lift themselves up from poverty will want to know what these successful nations did differently.

What did the successful countries do? Pretty much the exact opposite of what murder-boy suggests.
Dumb F---
by Mike
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 5:26 PM
You should have your legs sawed off one inch at a time. You are a dumb fuck .
Does SF attract MORONS or were all of you born there?
by Somebody with a brain
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 5:31 PM
Every idea that this terrorist advocates is/was/will be a failure. Everybody that agrees with him should get the phuck out. Move to Europe so that your destructive ideas don't ruin our country.
What a shame
by Michelle
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 5:33 PM
After reading through all of these posts and finding out that Andy WAS serious and did indeed take a life...I am flabbergasted and deeply sadenned.

While reading Andy's post I found myself agreeing with mostly everything he said. Being an anti-war activist and environmentalist, his writing struck a chord with me. I never stopped to think that he could possibly be serious about killing a cop.

What a waste of insight. He could have taken all of his ideas and insight and done something productive and meaningful. Hell, he seemed to be a good writer...he could have used the power of the pen instead of the power of the gun. Obviously, despite all of his interesting veiws the man is a delusional psychopath. Looking at the entire situation, I would have to say to Andy that his writing was nothing but intellectual vomit. He has taken a human life. He is shit in my book.

What good could possibly come out of murdering someone? What was this guy thinking? Killing a cop is not going to change the world. All you have done Andy, is ruined your life and the lives of the many people who loved that man.

I am embarassed to be an activist and seeker of peace if this is the kind of shit that goes on in our name.

I am now speechless.
Red Bluff CA
by Dodie
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 5:39 PM
I too live in Red Bluff Officer Mobilio was my sons Dare teacher. We all love you Officer Dave! And this punk ass bitch (excuse me) will pay for this. You will burn in hell!!!!!!!!
You're no better
by john
( thebigghit [at] yahoo.com ) Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 5:41 PM
Andy-
I am from Red Bluff,
you think you actually changed the world for the better. you think that you cause was worth the life of a loving husband , father and friend.
He was a great man and because of you he is no longer here to make the world better. How can you justify killing a father who never had the chance to see his children grow, or to the children that will never see there father again thanks to your stupid mission.
I would think that a person with military experiance would have respect for a peace officer who puts his life on the line everyday to protect us from the scum in our town.-like you
you are an idiot after all that writting you don't relize that people like you make our taxes go up because we have to pay for you to go to prison, we have to pay the government to up security to protect us from people like you. and now we are going to have to pay for you to die.
-YOU DIDN'T HELP US YOU JUST RAISED OUR TAXES YOU IDIOT.
you don't deserve to live but you don't deserve the luxury to die either. i hope you suffer.
GOD said "let vengence be mine."
Oh geez
by Peacey
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 5:43 PM
I agree that this a**hole should pay for his crime, but I have read so many posts that say "burn in hell". Come on people, there is no such thing as hell. And here's a suprise for all of you: Santa Claus is not real!

HAPPY HUMPING
by A&A All The Way
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 5:45 PM
You are a lousy no good waist of freakin' time and good air. I knew this wonderful man. He was terrific. What kind of garbage eatin trailer trash would be hiding in the shadow and then kill a helpless person. When shot from behind that shows a coward like you has done it and then to top it all off you go and post on the freakin' internet. Have fun on deathrow and HAPPY HUMPING!!!!!!!!!!!
jen
by good for the gander
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 5:45 PM
Why don't you cite current caselaw to support your position?
schizophrenia
by cp
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 5:47 PM
No... don't act like he's representative of people who share demographic characteristics, or some remote political views. That would be faulty logic because you could eventually attach him to millions.

The thing is, met or encountered enough schizophrenic people to strongly believe that that is what is afflicting this guy. Sometimes you can speak with someone who has medically treated schizophrenia and not notice that they have it at all, without being told. And for untreated schizophrenia, there is quite a range of behavior. Often they can seem to be 90% coherent, and to be making some sense in what they're saying, but then only if you step back and analyze what they're saying broadly, you notice that some of what they are saying is delusional, or they're making totally unsupported connections. Some schizophrenics are totally nondangerous, and are very passive, and more at risk of being manipulated by others. I have a schizophrenic neighbor who sends someone in my house threatening letters nearly every week, but he always stops short of violence - the letters have the same rambling self-righteous character as the McCraw letter where he accuses my housemate of being a child molester and a drug dealer and all sorts of other things. Another schizophrenic who used to perpetually hang around a cafe I worked at was very aware of environmentalism and recycling, and he would sit there and monitor the recycling habits of people at the cafe and correct their behavior. At first glance he would seem to be just a high anxiety normal person, but if you would notice connections he draws, like assuming a police car going by was monitoring us, it was clear he was totally unmedicated.
The rambling nature of the confession at the beginning of this thread plus the odd connections he draws, plus several instances of delusion seem to be indicative of paranoid schizophrenia. Schizophrenics can be very intelligent.
What
by LOL
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 5:57 PM
Shut up stupid!
hypocrits
by anonymous
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 6:23 PM
you guys all talk about how violence isnt the answer, but you then go and talk about how "andy" should be killed? its all a bunch of bullshit! i realize this is a sad incident that shouldnt have happened and "andy" was in the wrong, dont get me wrong, im not heartless or anything but come on now......
Is Revolution A Solution
by GG Allin
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 6:35 PM
So the guy was a DARE officer. That makes him a hero in the communities eyes? Come on... Essentially this guy did what tons of folks wish they had the guts to do every day. People all cry "killing someone won't do any good." Maybe that's exactly what needs to be done. Just start by whacking :0) the right people. If you are going to go out in a blaze of glory or such, why not find someone more important then a dirtbag cop. Why not go for some of the big guys that are making things worse for us all. Printing publications and writting news articles is great! But don't take away from those that have the guts to act out on it all. Otherwise it's jsut words on a screen and nothing more.

If revolution isn't your cup of tea, who want's to spend their life in jail, then try doing something like community building. Follow the link above to learn more.
Revolution, not Reaction!

Regards-

GG
Is Revolution A Solution
by GG Allin
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 6:35 PM
So the guy was a DARE officer. That makes him a hero in the communities eyes? Come on... Essentially this guy did what tons of folks wish they had the guts to do every day. People all cry "killing someone won't do any good." Maybe that's exactly what needs to be done. Just start by whacking :0) the right people. If you are going to go out in a blaze of glory or such, why not find someone more important then a dirtbag cop. Why not go for some of the big guys that are making things worse for us all. Printing publications and writting news articles is great! But don't take away from those that have the guts to act out on it all. Otherwise it's jsut words on a screen and nothing more.

If revolution isn't your cup of tea, who want's to spend their life in jail, then try doing something like community building. Follow the link above to learn more.
Revolution, not Reaction!

Regards-

GG
Watch your back!
by 187
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 7:27 PM
Being a relitive of a peace officer. I know that there are 'good' & 'bad' cops. The question is this. Why him? He had a family and a future.

You are a sick person, and you dont even deserve to go to hell. I think you should come to my house whiel I rip off your fucking testicles and burn your throat with acid. You are a sick fucking indvidual. Going to hell for you would be an honor. YOU are the scum. And I suggest that you have a pretty good fucking lawyer.

God doesnt now the hate that I feal for you. You Fucking make the hair on my back stand up!
Bubba & Co suck
by K.O. Buck
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 7:35 PM
I heard Bubba and his "good old boys" are nothing more than a bunch of hayseeds who like having sex with their livestock. Bubba, isn't it true that when you were a kid you got kicked in the head by a mule?
anonymous
by anonymous
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 7:36 PM
Just a thought . . . the content of the message is not necessarily invalidated by the actions of the messenger.

I think murder for political purposes is wrong, whether you talk about shooting a working stiff in Red Bluff or invading Iraq to satisfy the President's feeble ego.

I also think that corporate irresponsibility really is a major problem that is not going to go away. But anyone else out there who is reading this and is thinking about "direct action" -- consider this carefully. Killing solves nothing. Carefully showing a capability, then NOT using it . . . that can wake people up and make them think. And if you break the law, you also lose its protections . . . keep it legal but keep it radical.
Red Bluff Officer Dave Mobilio
by Dodie Thompson-Zimmerman
( dodiezimmerman [at] webtv.net ) Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 7:36 PM
In our little Northern California town of Red Bluff, CA , we live a simple life here. Not too much to worry about, we smile alot. I have lived in this town for 21 years. I moved here with my family at age 15 from the Bay Area town of Baypoint, which was then West Pittsburg. My Dad wanted me here away from the bull crap of the city. We didn't worry about the things we used to. Now I raise my children here. My oldest son Devin was in Officer Mobilio's DARE program, what a dedicated man. With all the news we listen to today, on that Monday morning, we heard of a killing in our town, the killing of an outstanding police officer. We are outraged! I would like to have the opportunity to be face to face with this scum that took our officer in such a brutal manner. I wish they would bind his hands, walk him down our Main st. and let the community have their way with him. There is not a court in this country that will be fair to him, let's punish him the way they did hudreds of years ago! A life sentence or even the death penalty is too good for him, I look forward to this piece of *#@# standing in front of the greatest judge of them all, Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! Vengence is mine sayith the Lord! And Mr. Andy scum You will feel the wrath of God upon you!!!! There is no way of death, painful enough for you, except the flames of hell uopn you!
anonymous
by anonymous
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 7:36 PM
Just a thought . . . the content of the message is not necessarily invalidated by the actions of the messenger.

I think murder for political purposes is wrong, whether you talk about shooting a working stiff in Red Bluff or invading Iraq to satisfy the President's feeble ego.

I also think that corporate irresponsibility really is a major problem that is not going to go away. But anyone else out there who is reading this and is thinking about "direct action" -- consider this carefully. Killing solves nothing. Carefully showing a capability, then NOT using it . . . that can wake people up and make them think. And if you break the law, you also lose its protections . . . keep it legal but keep it radical.
Red Bluff Officer Dave Mobilio
by Dodie Thompson-Zimmerman
( dodiezimmerman [at] webtv.net ) Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 7:36 PM
In our little Northern California town of Red Bluff, CA , we live a simple life here. Not too much to worry about, we smile alot. I have lived in this town for 21 years. I moved here with my family at age 15 from the Bay Area town of Baypoint, which was then West Pittsburg. My Dad wanted me here away from the bull crap of the city. We didn't worry about the things we used to. Now I raise my children here. My oldest son Devin was in Officer Mobilio's DARE program, what a dedicated man. With all the news we listen to today, on that Monday morning, we heard of a killing in our town, the killing of an outstanding police officer. We are outraged! I would like to have the opportunity to be face to face with this scum that took our officer in such a brutal manner. I wish they would bind his hands, walk him down our Main st. and let the community have their way with him. There is not a court in this country that will be fair to him, let's punish him the way they did hudreds of years ago! A life sentence or even the death penalty is too good for him, I look forward to this piece of *#@# standing in front of the greatest judge of them all, Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! Vengence is mine sayith the Lord! And Mr. Andy scum You will feel the wrath of God upon you!!!! There is no way of death, painful enough for you, except the flames of hell uopn you!
anonymous
by anonymous
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 7:36 PM
Just a thought . . . the content of the message is not necessarily invalidated by the actions of the messenger.

I think murder for political purposes is wrong, whether you talk about shooting a working stiff in Red Bluff or invading Iraq to satisfy the President's feeble ego.

I also think that corporate irresponsibility really is a major problem that is not going to go away. But anyone else out there who is reading this and is thinking about "direct action" -- consider this carefully. Killing solves nothing. Carefully showing a capability, then NOT using it . . . that can wake people up and make them think. And if you break the law, you also lose its protections . . . keep it legal but keep it radical.
Red Bluff Officer Dave Mobilio
by Dodie Thompson-Zimmerman
( dodiezimmerman [at] webtv.net ) Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 7:36 PM
In our little Northern California town of Red Bluff, CA , we live a simple life here. Not too much to worry about, we smile alot. I have lived in this town for 21 years. I moved here with my family at age 15 from the Bay Area town of Baypoint, which was then West Pittsburg. My Dad wanted me here away from the bull crap of the city. We didn't worry about the things we used to. Now I raise my children here. My oldest son Devin was in Officer Mobilio's DARE program, what a dedicated man. With all the news we listen to today, on that Monday morning, we heard of a killing in our town, the killing of an outstanding police officer. We are outraged! I would like to have the opportunity to be face to face with this scum that took our officer in such a brutal manner. I wish they would bind his hands, walk him down our Main st. and let the community have their way with him. There is not a court in this country that will be fair to him, let's punish him the way they did hudreds of years ago! A life sentence or even the death penalty is too good for him, I look forward to this piece of *#@# standing in front of the greatest judge of them all, Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! Vengence is mine sayith the Lord! And Mr. Andy scum You will feel the wrath of God upon you!!!! There is no way of death, painful enough for you, except the flames of hell uopn you!
anonymous
by anonymous
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 7:37 PM
Just a thought . . . the content of the message is not necessarily invalidated by the actions of the messenger.

I think murder for political purposes is wrong, whether you talk about shooting a working stiff in Red Bluff or invading Iraq to satisfy the President's feeble ego.

I also think that corporate irresponsibility really is a major problem that is not going to go away. But anyone else out there who is reading this and is thinking about "direct action" -- consider this carefully. Killing solves nothing. Carefully showing a capability, then NOT using it . . . that can wake people up and make them think. And if you break the law, you also lose its protections . . . keep it legal but keep it radical.
Red Bluff Officer Dave Mobilio
by Dodie Thompson-Zimmerman
( dodiezimmerman [at] webtv.net ) Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 7:37 PM
In our little Northern California town of Red Bluff, CA , we live a simple life here. Not too much to worry about, we smile alot. I have lived in this town for 21 years. I moved here with my family at age 15 from the Bay Area town of Baypoint, which was then West Pittsburg. My Dad wanted me here away from the bull crap of the city. We didn't worry about the things we used to. Now I raise my children here. My oldest son Devin was in Officer Mobilio's DARE program, what a dedicated man. With all the news we listen to today, on that Monday morning, we heard of a killing in our town, the killing of an outstanding police officer. We are outraged! I would like to have the opportunity to be face to face with this scum that took our officer in such a brutal manner. I wish they would bind his hands, walk him down our Main st. and let the community have their way with him. There is not a court in this country that will be fair to him, let's punish him the way they did hudreds of years ago! A life sentence or even the death penalty is too good for him, I look forward to this piece of *#@# standing in front of the greatest judge of them all, Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! Vengence is mine sayith the Lord! And Mr. Andy scum You will feel the wrath of God upon you!!!! There is no way of death, painful enough for you, except the flames of hell uopn you!
Red Bluff Officer Dave Mobilio
by Dodie Thompson-Zimmerman
( dodiezimmerman [at] webtv.net ) Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 7:38 PM
In our little Northern California town of Red Bluff, CA , we live a simple life here. Not too much to worry about, we smile alot. I have lived in this town for 21 years. I moved here with my family at age 15 from the Bay Area town of Baypoint, which was then West Pittsburg. My Dad wanted me here away from the bull crap of the city. We didn't worry about the things we used to. Now I raise my children here. My oldest son Devin was in Officer Mobilio's DARE program, what a dedicated man. With all the news we listen to today, on that Monday morning, we heard of a killing in our town, the killing of an outstanding police officer. We are outraged! I would like to have the opportunity to be face to face with this scum that took our officer in such a brutal manner. I wish they would bind his hands, walk him down our Main st. and let the community have their way with him. There is not a court in this country that will be fair to him, let's punish him the way they did hudreds of years ago! A life sentence or even the death penalty is too good for him, I look forward to this piece of *#@# standing in front of the greatest judge of them all, Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! Vengence is mine sayith the Lord! And Mr. Andy scum You will feel the wrath of God upon you!!!! There is no way of death, painful enough for you, except the flames of hell uopn you!
Red Bluff Officer Dave Mobilio
by Dodie Thompson-Zimmerman
( dodiezimmerman [at] webtv.net ) Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 7:39 PM
In our little Northern California town of Red Bluff, CA , we live a simple life here. Not too much to worry about, we smile alot. I have lived in this town for 21 years. I moved here with my family at age 15 from the Bay Area town of Baypoint, which was then West Pittsburg. My Dad wanted me here away from the bull crap of the city. We didn't worry about the things we used to. Now I raise my children here. My oldest son Devin was in Officer Mobilio's DARE program, what a dedicated man. With all the news we listen to today, on that Monday morning, we heard of a killing in our town, the killing of an outstanding police officer. We are outraged! I would like to have the opportunity to be face to face with this scum that took our officer in such a brutal manner. I wish they would bind his hands, walk him down our Main st. and let the community have their way with him. There is not a court in this country that will be fair to him, let's punish him the way they did hudreds of years ago! A life sentence or even the death penalty is too good for him, I look forward to this piece of *#@# standing in front of the greatest judge of them all, Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! Vengence is mine sayith the Lord! And Mr. Andy scum You will feel the wrath of God upon you!!!! There is no way of death, painful enough for you, except the flames of hell uopn you!
anonymous
by anonymous
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 7:39 PM
Just a thought . . . the content of the message is not necessarily invalidated by the actions of the messenger.

I think murder for political purposes is wrong, whether you talk about shooting a working stiff in Red Bluff or invading Iraq to satisfy the President's feeble ego.

I also think that corporate irresponsibility really is a major problem that is not going to go away. But anyone else out there who is reading this and is thinking about "direct action" -- consider this carefully. Killing solves nothing. Carefully showing a capability, then NOT using it . . . that can wake people up and make them think. And if you break the law, you also lose its protections . . . keep it legal but keep it radical.
anonymous
by anonymous
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 7:39 PM
Just a thought . . . the content of the message is not necessarily invalidated by the actions of the messenger.

I think murder for political purposes is wrong, whether you talk about shooting a working stiff in Red Bluff or invading Iraq to satisfy the President's feeble ego.

I also think that corporate irresponsibility really is a major problem that is not going to go away. But anyone else out there who is reading this and is thinking about "direct action" -- consider this carefully. Killing solves nothing. Carefully showing a capability, then NOT using it . . . that can wake people up and make them think. And if you break the law, you also lose its protections . . . keep it legal but keep it radical.
anonymous
by anonymous
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 7:39 PM
Just a thought . . . the content of the message is not necessarily invalidated by the actions of the messenger.

I think murder for political purposes is wrong, whether you talk about shooting a working stiff in Red Bluff or invading Iraq to satisfy the President's feeble ego.

I also think that corporate irresponsibility really is a major problem that is not going to go away. But anyone else out there who is reading this and is thinking about "direct action" -- consider this carefully. Killing solves nothing. Carefully showing a capability, then NOT using it . . . that can wake people up and make them think. And if you break the law, you also lose its protections . . . keep it legal but keep it radical.
anonymous
by anonymous
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 7:39 PM
Just a thought . . . the content of the message is not necessarily invalidated by the actions of the messenger.

I think murder for political purposes is wrong, whether you talk about shooting a working stiff in Red Bluff or invading Iraq to satisfy the President's feeble ego.

I also think that corporate irresponsibility really is a major problem that is not going to go away. But anyone else out there who is reading this and is thinking about "direct action" -- consider this carefully. Killing solves nothing. Carefully showing a capability, then NOT using it . . . that can wake people up and make them think. And if you break the law, you also lose its protections . . . keep it legal but keep it radical.
anonymous
by anonymous
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 7:39 PM
Just a thought . . . the content of the message is not necessarily invalidated by the actions of the messenger.

I think murder for political purposes is wrong, whether you talk about shooting a working stiff in Red Bluff or invading Iraq to satisfy the President's feeble ego.

I also think that corporate irresponsibility really is a major problem that is not going to go away. But anyone else out there who is reading this and is thinking about "direct action" -- consider this carefully. Killing solves nothing. Carefully showing a capability, then NOT using it . . . that can wake people up and make them think. And if you break the law, you also lose its protections . . . keep it legal but keep it radical.
Red Bluff Officer Dave Mobilio
by Dodie Thompson-Zimmerman
( dodiezimmerman [at] webtv.net ) Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 7:39 PM
In our little Northern California town of Red Bluff, CA , we live a simple life here. Not too much to worry about, we smile alot. I have lived in this town for 21 years. I moved here with my family at age 15 from the Bay Area town of Baypoint, which was then West Pittsburg. My Dad wanted me here away from the bull crap of the city. We didn't worry about the things we used to. Now I raise my children here. My oldest son Devin was in Officer Mobilio's DARE program, what a dedicated man. With all the news we listen to today, on that Monday morning, we heard of a killing in our town, the killing of an outstanding police officer. We are outraged! I would like to have the opportunity to be face to face with this scum that took our officer in such a brutal manner. I wish they would bind his hands, walk him down our Main st. and let the community have their way with him. There is not a court in this country that will be fair to him, let's punish him the way they did hudreds of years ago! A life sentence or even the death penalty is too good for him, I look forward to this piece of *#@# standing in front of the greatest judge of them all, Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! Vengence is mine sayith the Lord! And Mr. Andy scum You will feel the wrath of God upon you!!!! There is no way of death, painful enough for you, except the flames of hell uopn you!
Sick Society
by Jack Sheet
( jacksheet [at] hotmail.com ) Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 7:48 PM
I hope Andy spends a long time in Pelican Bay. Perhaps Attorney General Lockyer can find him a suitable cell mate. His photo makes him look effeminate, so he'll make friends fast.
Daryle
by H
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 7:51 PM
You know its not Darle/s fault or Andy's fault the are inbred idiots. People like them cannot think normal because of their inbred genes. Usually their mother is also their sister, and Daddy plays with them when their young. So I am sure Andy will have an exuse like, my dad sodomized me when I was young. Have you ever noticed that scumbags raise scumbags. It is a chain that is very difficult to break in this great nation. Bad parenting, drugs, and just plain freaks have plagued our nation since its birth. That is not an excuse though. If we get rid of idiots altogethor like Daryle and Andy then the chain of freak hood will eventually get broken, because they wont be around to give birth to more inbred dirt bags. Hey Daryle have you taken a shower today. Ive noticed that most people like you smell very badly. Whats up with that,is soap and water to corrupt for you.
Daryle
by H
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 7:52 PM
You know its not Darle/s fault or Andy's fault the are inbred idiots. People like them cannot think normal because of their inbred genes. Usually their mother is also their sister, and Daddy plays with them when their young. So I am sure Andy will have an exuse like, my dad sodomized me when I was young. Have you ever noticed that scumbags raise scumbags. It is a chain that is very difficult to break in this great nation. Bad parenting, drugs, and just plain freaks have plagued our nation since its birth. That is not an excuse though. If we get rid of idiots altogethor like Daryle and Andy then the chain of freak hood will eventually get broken, because they wont be around to give birth to more inbred dirt bags. Hey Daryle have you taken a shower today. Ive noticed that most people like you smell very badly. Whats up with that,is soap and water to corrupt for you.
Red Bluff, CA
by Dodie
( dodiezimmerman [at] webtv.net ) Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 7:55 PM
Oh yes, bring him to us, the citizens of Little ole' Red Bluff, Ca. We will show you what cop killers get! You killed OUR officer Dave, you punk! You better hope and Pray that they give you maximum security, cuz we will get you!
Red Bluff, CA
by Dodie
( dodiezimmerman [at] webtv.net ) Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 7:55 PM
Oh yes, bring him to us, the citizens of Little ole' Red Bluff, Ca. We will show you what cop killers get! You killed OUR officer Dave, you punk! You better hope and Pray that they give you maximum security, cuz we will get you!
Officer2u
by proudcop
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 8:10 PM
This is to Daryl, Andrew McCrae, and anyone else like them. I am a police officer in Northern California and the death of Officer Mobilio was senseless, cowardly and unforgiveable. I too am a DARE officer and teach dare on my day's off. I am no better than anyone else, I do a job because I truly care about people and want to protect them. I know the risks, believe me, my wife and kids deal with it each time I leave for work. Just like 9-11-01, this terrorist act will only bring the law enforcement community closer and stronger. Come up to Northern California sometime and you better be a good shot because you will only get one chance if you plan to ambush me in the cowardly fashion that was done to Dave Mobilio. I might get hurt but they'll be carrying you out in a body bag. I'm a firm believer in "what goes around comes around" and McCrae will get what he deserves. My thoughts and prayers go out to Officer Dave Mobilio's family.
Get out if you dont like it.
by John
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 8:18 PM
Somebody please answer this question for me, why is it that freaks like andy are anti government, and then they support idiots like gore who are for big government, not local control. I am a veteran myself and have been to over 32 countries, if you think it is so bad here then get the hell out. I get so sick of all these freaks griping about how terrible it is in the U.S. and how bad they have it. Most of those idiots have never held a job in their life and never have been anywhere. Leave if you dont like it you stupid idiots. Liberal inbred psychopaths. I guess you want a free ride though you dont want to work for it and wish someone would continue to provide for you. Breast feeding is a little strange by the time your 23 years old.
Hey Andy and pals
by GLopus
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 8:27 PM
Taking a human life, no matter what the cause, is wrong. Dave Mobillio was a police officer with a wife and baby son, working to provide food and shelter for them. He was not the cause of all the problems in the world. He was making a difference in a small community, being a DARE instructor and police officer. I did not know Dave personally, though I had met him a few times. He had nothing to to with Andy's agenda. I'm not a violent person by nature, although I do believe in "an eye for an eye" I think Andy will have no problem making friends at Pelican Bay. Those of you who refered to Officer Mobillio as a "dirtbag cop" should get to know some of our small town law enforcement officers and their families...they're just people, like you and me...just people doing a job...
lesson
by mike
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 8:33 PM
Just because Israelis oppress Palestinians doesn't justify suicide bombing. Just because bin laden killed 3,000 people doesn't mean the U.S. should have killed 3,000 innocent Afghans. And just because (some) cops are oppressive doesn't justify what this asshole did. Like all terrorism, it's going to "blow back" on the causes it's apparently meant to support, so batten down the henches, comrades. Who cares if some of what he says "makes sense."? He's an asshole. Fuck him. And fuck people who come up with mealy-mouthed statements like "Well, what he did was terrible, but....."
cops
by --
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 8:36 PM
It's humorous to me that people are so outraged that this cop was killed. Maybe something good can come of this. Maybe you will now be able to empathise when other people are killed for no reason (including by law enforcement), but probably not. You all will probably continue in your current patterns and be unable to feel for others (protesters who are attacked, beaten, and even killed by the police). And the thing is that you are just like this poor soul who killed the cop, but you don't even know it. Funny that his action have showed how similar you all are. Where is your outrage every day when people are beaten and killed by the police (or others) for no reason? You don't have any. See people who actually care about people feel for all people who are injured or killed in instances where it isn't self defense. Not you brave people in this brave town.

Bush is going to say innocents had to die to get rid of the bad man at the top. Are you stupid? can you not see connections?

Not selfish people like yourselves. You only "feel" when you feel it's one of your own. How pathetic.

writer
by dfd
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 8:36 PM
actually all drug dealers and drug users are lowlife scum bags and would be better of dead, hum sounds like a good vocation.
I hope you die a horrible death
by michael
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 8:45 PM
Maybe Andy is confused, but what the constitution says in New Hampshire says, and the constitution in California says are two different things. When you are in another state, you have to abide by their laws, and not anothers. I think he is well educated, but somebody put an idea in his head that he can commit murder, and get away with it. Andy, you are not O.J., you are a punk kid who wanted to get some attention, and you succeded. Do you think it is worth two lives, the officers and your own. You will die and regret all that you stood for when u realize that nobody stands behind you or your veiws.
Murder is not an excuse
by michael
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 8:45 PM
Maybe Andy is confused, but what the constitution says in New Hampshire says, and the constitution in California says are two different things. When you are in another state, you have to abide by their laws, and not anothers. I think he is well educated, but somebody put an idea in his head that he can commit murder, and get away with it. Andy, you are not O.J., you are a punk kid who wanted to get some attention, and you succeded. Do you think it is worth two lives, the officers and your own. You will die and regret all that you stood for when u realize that nobody stands behind you or your veiws.
Wild Side
by Dr. Feelgood
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 9:16 PM
Get real people. Why are you posting to Andy as if he can read this. He's in jail!

A baby cries
A cop dies
A day's pay on the wild side.

With all of this hate talk going on here, we are no better than him.

You can kill with words just as easy as you can with a gun.

Let he who lives without sin cast the first stone.

All we are saying is give peace a chance.
Ummm..don't speak for me
by the REAL Daryle Lamont Jenkins
( dlj [at] onepeoplesproject.com ) Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 9:22 PM
Someone hit me up to let me know I had someone impersonating me on this thread. Whoever is going by my name, get a life. I don't talk like that, and I would not. If anyone has any questions, you can email me at dlj [at] onepeoplesproject.com - my secondary email address that ISN'T on a website for someone to use pretending he is me!
Andy
by RB native
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 9:37 PM
Andy, What a great job you did of telling those big corporate bastards who's boss! YEAH RIGHT!!! Your a complete moron! Did you actually think killing a wonderful man like Dave would stop corporate america??? I can guarantee that the people who own those big corporations don't even know where Red Bluff is! After this is all said and done and people TRY to move on, corporate america will not even skipped a beat. If you are actually dumb enough to think that a two-bit loser, like yourself could stop them with one ridiculous stunt then you are just giving yourself way too much credit. We are a small town with a big heart. All you have done is completely pissed off a community and ruined a wife and small childs life. Way to go pal! By the way, next time you want to show corporate america a thing or two, why don't you pick someone who is not even deserving of taking another breath.....like yourself maybe!
Look what you have done
by *******
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 9:41 PM
you killed an innocent man to prove a point about corporations? what kind of crap is that....i live in red bluff, and it makes me sick to think that some son of a bitch itdiot who hates "corporations" could come and kill any one of us right now....i cant wait to see what happens to you in court. i dont think you should die. i dont think you should get off that easy. i think you should have to sit the rest of you life out in jail all alone. think of the officers baby....growing up knowing that someone shot his dad for such a bull shit reason as this. i hope you realized what you have done to his family, this entire community. i drive around with my doors locked now. i get gas right across the street from where you shot office mobilio. i dont ever want to get gas or live my life how i used to now because of you. i hope you die a lonely miserable bastard in jail while some inmate makes you suck his dick.
-oh yeah and for that guy that said killing cops is cool you will probably be the next one rotting in jail.
"Why are you posting to Andy as if he can read this"
by one possibility:
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 9:47 PM
Maybe they're idiots. There's been a lot of that going around lately.
this is unbelievable
by red bluff teen
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 9:56 PM
i cannot believe this has happened. a cop getting shot in MY hometown a little town that had absolutely nothing to do with your sick theories and antics. its horrible that you would even THINK these things let alone act them out on an innocent man who didnt do anything wrong.

i go to rb high school and one day we were talking about how we couldnt imagine how the family felt. can you imagine? its disgusting that you could do this. he was a father, to an 18 month old child...what is his child going to think about his opinions or views of this world??

and if you want to make such a difference you don't have to kill a cop, or anyone for that matter to do it. what you did was cowardly, and i hope you fry in hell for it. now i know you will probably never read this but i read your letter and how you addressed teenagers specifically-really got to me...not how you wanted it to. it made me mad-you trying to get to teens and try to make them act out on issues they probably barely understand. i know the government isnt perfect and theres a lot of things i dont know but i know enough to ignore a psycho who killed an innocent person to prove a point.

there are people out there making a difference in NONVIOLENT ways--and theyre not going to get the death penalty.
killing loving family members
by tragic
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 9:57 PM
Today I saw a John Pilger film about Iraq. In attendance, was doctor who lived close to Kuwait in Saudi Arabia up until the US involvement. He confirmed what many have reported. Iraqi children were healthy before US enforced sanctions. UNICEF was removing personnel, due to a lack of a need for their efforts in Iraq. Hussein was the tyrannical leader of this country that at least provided for it's children. As a result of US involvement, thousands of children have died every month for over 10 years. If the US did not punish the people for the actions of a dictator that the US helped get power, then these children would not have died.

Blaming Hussein for the US murdering a million innocent, loving children from powerless families is a million times worse then blaming corporations for the murder of a police officer.

I send my deepest sympathies and best wishes to the family, coworkers, friends, Red Bluff residents, and all others affected by the tragic murder of David Mobilio, as I do for the loved ones of the millions of nameless children murdered by US enforced sanctions in Iraq. I will work, nonviolently, as much as I can to minimize the occurrence of murderous activity in the future.

20 years ago, Nicaragua had a growing economy praised by the UN for its progress and potential to benefit human beings. Since Nicaragua had socialistic policies, the US fought a terror war that resulted in the deaths of thousands of innocent people. Now, Nicaragua is the poorest, or one of the poorest countries in Latin America. Once again, US actions led to death and destruction visited upon innocent civilians who did nothing to the US.

Maybe you can remember your pain and outrage at tragedies that have affected your life when US foreign policy is being debated on tv or in papers. Maybe you can see that US actions affect others that have feelings to. Maybe you can search for peaceful alternatives before using force. Maybe you can take your share of responsiblity for what your country has done as much as you try to blame your dehumanized enemies.
<h1><b>To Andy and his followers that hate cops!</b></h1>
by Joshua And Laura
( Fuck [at] andy.com ) Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 9:58 PM

To andy and all of his gay little followers. What The Fuck? Where would we be without police? If they were not around, your mother would have been raped, you would have been robbed, and your children killed. And no justice would be served, and everyone would always live in fear.

To Andy: I sincerely hope you get

FUCKED IN THE ASS 3 TIMES A DAY!!!

I can't imagine how great the guards will treat you. Rot in fucking hell....

America, love it or leave it...
by GLopus
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 10:06 PM
I have to agree with John...If America is so bad, get the hell out. America has alot of things other countries don't, like freedom of speach. Try going to Afghanistan or some other county and talking about how badly the govenment sucks and see what happens next. I would like nothing better than to see world peace, but i know damn well that no protest, letter writing or anything else like this will make everybody magically say "I'm Sorry" and start some sort of world wide "group hug". Murder, in any form, for any reason, is wrong. When it is a decent family man, who is trying to make a difference in his community, to make it a better place for his wife and child to live, it's even worse. Dave Mobillio did nothing to Andy, or anybody else to provoke murder. He has never beaten or killed a protestor. He was just doing his job, keeping watch of his community. If you think killing a man, just because he's a police officer, is ok...try living in a nation with no police protection. I come from a white, middle class family in rural Northern California, so I don't pretend to know what people are going through in the big cities, but here in rural America, I'm glad to have The Red Bluff Police Department, The Redding Police Department, The Shasta County Sherriff's Department and the Tehama County Sherriff's Department watching my backside, making sure the people in our small communities are ok...
FREEDOM OF SPEACH BABY!
by informed citizen
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 10:24 PM
Regardless of what was done. Yes, this man has some serious issues, but let's just make one point clear -- HE HAS A RIGHT TO POST WHATEVER THE HELL HE WANTS HERE, so don't come onto this site trying to say that it only breeds hatred. For those of us who have the balls to use intellect, reason, and really just anything other than political socialization we recieved while growing up in podunk towns (I'm from redding as well) we are given the right to speak freely, no matter how hated and revolution-inspring (not synonymous with "fighting-words"). I hope justice is served, and I feel for the family of Mr. Mobilio. Sir, how dare you resort to violence when it is this violence we in the "cause" are trying to fight.
no trial
by steven
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 10:49 PM
Unfortunatly there will be no trial in Red Bluff for this scumbag. The trial will be moved to another location or the waste of sperm will commit suicide in jail while on suicide watch. There is more here than we are being told, but it will never come out. Some people think that this was a hired "hit" as retaliation for a death that happened in town several weeks ago. I would like to have all the information on this guy and his contacts here in Red Bluff. But as I said, it will never happen. For this reason I feel sorry for the child and widow, not knowing the full story.
Ok, Here we go again
by Peacey
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 10:50 PM
OK, Just to drive the point home again: HELL IS NOT A REAL PLACE. SANTA CLAUS IS NOT REAL NOR IS THE EASTER BUNNY! Ok, so let's all try something more creative than "burn in hell."

As hard as it is in the midst of tumultuous emotions, let's try not to spew even more hatred. Andy seems like a troubled, pathetic person. There is never an excuse to take a life and if we take HIS life then we are just as bad as he was. The old pot calling the kettle black. He killed him so I'll kill him and you killed so and so so I'll kill you and on and on and on. Let the Universe take care of this guy. He'll get his. Why waste your breath spouting venom on a message board.

Out of curiousity, I would like to know what has happened to this message board recently. For example, it used to be inteligent conversation and now it seems like there are alot of bigots on here.In this thread alone, there are many calling each other "faggots." Sorry, I live in San Francisco so I'm not used to that shit. Are people from Texas infiltrating SF Indymedia all of a sudden? In certain threads it looks like "Focus on the Family."

What happened?
FREEDOM OF SPEACH BABY!
by informed citizen
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 10:50 PM
Regardless of what was done. Yes, this man has some serious issues, but let's just make one point clear -- HE HAS A RIGHT TO POST WHATEVER THE HELL HE WANTS HERE, so don't come onto this site trying to say that it only breeds hatred. For those of us who have the balls to use intellect, reason, and really just anything other than political socialization we recieved while growing up in podunk towns (I'm from redding as well) we are given the right to speak freely, no matter how hated and revolution-inspring (not synonymous with "fighting-words"). I hope justice is served, and I feel for the family of Mr. Mobilio. Sir, how dare you resort to violence when it is this violence we in the "cause" are trying to fight.
Red Bluffion
by Sue W
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 12:08 AM
As a resident in Red Bluff I as all of you feel sorrow an sadness for what this misguided fellow human being has done to Officer Dave and his family. Andy wrote as an educated young man. He had a right to his views but no man has the right to take a life. Imagine the mind of a person who would do this horriable act. Now he will pay with his life or freeedom, regardless which it is will it ever be enough?
?
by ?
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 12:14 AM
Why were the following addresses and phone #s given by McCrea? Has anyone called them?

The Declaration of a Renewed American Independence
by Andrew McCrae 5:05pm Mon Nov 25 '02 (Modified on 11:02pm Tue Nov 26 '02)
address: 420 Sherman St. Olympia, WA phone: 360-753-7486
http://www.seattle.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=20309&group=webcast

The Declaration of a Renewed American Independence
by Andrew McCrae 5:29pm Mon Nov 25 '02
address: 342 Treehaven St. Austin TX phone: 374-988-4833 n
http://austin.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=4378&group=webcast

The Declaration Of A Renewed American Independence
by Andrew McCrae
Email: none (unverified!)
Phone: 834-389-2933
Address: 433 Blackraven Dr. Baltimore, Maryland
http://baltimore.indymedia.org/newswire/display/2219/index.php

12:02 am
by L.Blank
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 12:26 AM
We are all outraged by the senseless act of one man against another... Taking a man from his family, friends, & co- workers. A man who was a piller of his community, a hero to the children in the school where he hoped to keep them from becoming drug addicts, and possably Murders!!! You ask why? Why would someone as apparently as intelligent as "Andy" is,do something so senseless? It doesn't matter " Why" when the outcome can't be changed. A Man is dead...
bastard
by andy h8er
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 1:37 AM


I hate andy!

admin
by admin test
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 1:38 AM
can anybody read this?
admin
by admin test
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 1:38 AM
can anybody read this?
Follow up
by google
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 1:52 AM

The searches didn't turn up any links.....

Austin
by Address:
by Name:
0 Matches Found
by Phone: Your search has returned no results

Baltimore
by Address: Your search has returned no results
by Name: 0 Matches Found
by Phone: Your search has returned no results

Olympia
by Address: 39 Total Results
by Name: 0 Matches Found
by Phone: Henderson, Michael

...but there is first had verification that an Andrew McCrae did live in Olympia, Washington

The FBI arrested 23-year old Andrew McCrae Tuesday morning after a standoff at a hotel. As far as investigators know, McCrae did not live in New Hampshire. He lives in Olympia at the Capitol House Apartments, where his arrest comes as a shock. Gina Gervasi says she lived across the hall from McCrae.
"He just seemed like a normal guy. A kid, you know, 20's," Gervasi said "I didn't think he'd ever kill a police officer. I don't know. I can't believe that."
www.komotv.com/stories/21642.htm
Calif cop killer suspect posts 'confession
by upi
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 2:23 AM

...There was no immediate comment from Red Bluff police, however readers of the Web site appeared largely appalled at McCrae's actions and his justification.

"Nice job, you moron," wrote one reader. "Lay in wait like the coward that you are and whack a cop filling up his car with gas... shot from behind...like the tiny Podunk town of Red Bluff, Ca is a hotbed of police state tactics...who are you trying to kid? You're just another sorry, pathetic, loser punk who's just wasted their life...do you think you've made a difference in the world? Maybe to the 18-month-old child you just left without a father? I hope you have a few years to reflect on your misery on death row before the government slips that long needle into your pathetic, deserving arm...and you end up where you belong... "

Another posting said simply, "You should go to hell."

Other submissions echoed McCrae's condemnation of "corporate America" and bemoaned the "wasting" of his life and the prospect of facing life in prison.

"Christine," from Red Bluff posted the following message: "I don't know where to begin. I Live in Red Bluff, CA and personally knew Officer Mobilio. He was a very kind man and worked with the Elementary Schools DARE programs. He was married and had a 19-month-old son. How can any one human being think that he can play God? What gives you the right to just decide that someone innocent needs to die? Your Corporation will do you no good; it isn't a debt...it's murder."

(Reported by Hil Anderson in Los Angeles)

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20021126-055719-4322r

Untitled
by Vlad
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 2:30 AM

For someone who revealed his crime and surrendered volunteraly, he doesn't seem like a monster that everyones makes him to be. He's just an idealist. And while that is not an excuse to kill people, some of you people are being completly unfair in your judgement.

What's worse, you call him guilty even when his sentance hasn't been heard yet. Shame on you.
There goes the movement
by pissed off
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 3:28 AM
well, i think this will finally finish up the anti-corporate movement in the USA. This will effectivly turn most 'everyday folk' against or minority movement, no matter what our causes are.

I am very depressed now.
Jumping to conclusions
by Santafe
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 3:45 AM
Gee Vlad, t
The guy wrote in his first sentence: "I killed a Police Officer ". I really don't think it we can be accused of jumping to conclusions or pre-judging him prior to official sentencing.
I wonder if the policeman's family agrees with you that he's not a monster.

For what its worth though, I don't think he really killed anyone. I think this is a bogus writeup.
Idiots.
by John Doe
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 4:41 AM
All evidence to the contrary, I still want to believe that this is not for real.
Yes, cops, from time to time, engage in questionable, even deadly, tactics, but when it comes right down to it, they're generally just doing their job.
You stupid paranoid f*cks all seem to believe that law enforcement automatically equals EVIL!
It's just as knee-jerk and idiotic a belief as those in the GOOOO CAPITALISM! crowd have.
One could go on and on about the evils of corporations, and if this guy's writing had been merely satire, had not been based in fact, it would have been brilliant, I'll give him that much.
But killing one who upholds the law, who - for better or worse - is seen by the vast majority of Americans as a Good Person no matter what his personal life may actually be like, just knocks the cause of Corporate Change back another ten years.
This gives the Real Powers That Be yet another person they can point to to discredit Social Justice movements, to say "Look! Look at these violent punks!" When people do shit like this, they're only digging their own graves.
Fogivness
by Mr.macDougal
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 5:55 AM
Does this same Jesus not forgive even murders,are liars(ever lied before?)The hidious crime this person has commited is over.Now the real tests begins,that test being the condition of our hearts.Justice will be served,rest assured.Will you the officers who will be in charge of his custody be able to treat your new prisoner justly,as our laws and our God require?Do not let hatered become the driving force of your anger,it will not only destroy you,but also those around you.Paul persicutted the early christian church,and was used mightly.My question then is this,can God forgive a murder???We as people will never forget this hidious crime and a lot will never forgive,but if you as you say beleive in God then remember this,let not the sun go down on your anger.Our comunity is broken here in RedBluff and this needs to be a time of healing and much prayer of them that beleive,examine your own hearts to see if any bad thing lives there,then pray for your own forgiveness,and let God and our courts deal with the murder,and please pray for Daves family,THEY NEED IT THE MOST.
Sad
by King Queen
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 5:59 AM
It is a shame that the only way the corporate media will express anti-corporate ideas is if there are laws broken.

There may be 40,000 people at a Smokey Bears picnic and it doesn't make the news; 2,000 people turn up at a demo in central London and fight the cops, and it does make the news - but in the wrong way.

We are fucked either way.

I don't condone killing anybody; violence is never the way forward, but I hope that the killing at least has some benefit - and that this guy's political points are made in the media.

But I doubt it. I suspect they will just call him an "anti-capitalist" and end it there. In their views, "anti-capitalist" = "deviant" = "terrorist".

It's just sad, how sad.
He was an army ranger
by cp
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 6:36 AM
Andrew McCrae received marksman training in the army. He didn't go to college - he spent the past 3 years in the military. The other sniper was in the military too. Lots of kids I know in the army have described a kind of split life or brain that they have - like one guy was describing how coming out of training, he couldn't look at crowds of people at a distance without mentally strategizing how to knock them off.
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2002/11/27/MN70905.DTL
From the SF Chronicle:"
Little is known about McCrae's background. He lived in Ohio as a teenager and spent three years in the Army, mostly stationed at Fort Campbell, Ky., until he was discharged Aug. 11, 2001, his family said. The Army declined to comment on his service.

McCrae, who identifies himself in the posting as an Army veteran and graduate of the U.S. Army Ranger School, Airborne School and Jungle Operations Training School, also complains heartily about the military. "

morliss
by morliss tweed
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 6:47 AM
Somebody, probably your average American (dumb, fat-assed, half-witted mega-consumer) ...

>Your stupid
>by ******** • Tuesday November 26, 2002 at 09:43 AM
>
>You should go to hell

Well, all I say is let's hope they teach grammar in hell ...

PS. Bush is perfect for you American lunatics: he speaks in slow soundbite-like phrases, easy to misunde...^ZZZZZZ understand grunts, and makes enough mistakes that most Americans can relate to him. Complete with knuckles dragging on the ground, he's your perfect president.

Problem is, why can't you keep him the fuck at home?
The judgement
by Jake
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 6:55 AM
So he is guilty?
When was the verdict released, i cant seem to find it on the net...

oh wait a sec, that happens after a trial...





Dr.
by Oscar Beard
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 7:22 AM
This is a message to all those who felt compelled to reply and attack Andrew McCrae. If you deny anything that Andy states in this article then the American education system must have worked on you. You are all stupid and blind - go vote for Bush, or even Gore, they're the same when you strip away all the red white and blue and funding anyway. Andy, can't say I condone cop killing (if you really did), still its a great way to catch the public attention, and it seems to have worked. I have been studying the American process on many levels for over 12 years now, and I'm sorry to say Andy is right. We are all being sold down the river for corporate dollars, designer labels and brand names. The cost being our planet and clean air. People no longer count, not even our soldiers - we're just numbers on a collateral damage estimatye sheet. This summer I spent some time with a group of U.S Marines. Funnily enough they seemed to understand your countries screwed up processes more than any other American I had ever met. Several even talked of putting a bullet in Bush's head and "end this madness" as one called it. So, wake up, oh so eager Americans to have your say. Instead of attacking those who are open to what is really going on, why not be democratic. See what people have to say, look into their information and see if it is true before you condemn them and their ideals. Stop hiding behind a 2000 year old religon and hypocritical laws. You are not righteous. If you are blind to what is going on world-wide, you are as guilty as those who fly planes into buildings, or those who sell weapons to "rogue states" then declare war on them four years later, labelling them an "axis of evil". Jesus ain't going to love you for that. No, straight to the bottom of hell for you boys and girls. Be aware, understand what is happening, locally, nationally and internationally, and try and do something about it, before it gets too late to even talk about such things. Be warned and be aware. Andy, keep up the good work, (but stop killing cops), just try talking to people about your views, you'll get more respect. Dr. Oscar Beard - journalist
Mr
by Fred
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 7:28 AM
Why are all you guys flaming the author of this article, when you dont flame the corporates that kill people.

Who invented Napalm ? Cluster bombs ? Land mines ?

How about that indian "chemical plant" "accident".

So - lets get this right. You're slandering a corporation because he claims to have killed one person. (This in itself is a henious crime). Large corporations worldwide kill hundreds of thousands (and not just McMerican ones. Think of "African dried milk scandal", "human organ trafficking", etc.

But - if he's a corporation, I just hope that the same laws that get applied to the corporations get applied to him. Apalling though that would be.

So choose. The USA is supposed to be the world cop. So be one. "Justice is blind" used to mean something.


Got a problem with this ? Then DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

Protest. Complain. Demand that the law is not immutable by some chimpanzee goverment in the pay of the corporates. Use your vote wisely.

Clearly, you have not done so recently.


Good luck.
Envy
by Logical Monster
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 7:33 AM
It is OK for the rich to have as much as they do if they created the wealth. Wealth is created, so someone can become richer without taking from someone else. Someone becoming rich by taking from someone else is not a common situation.

If you think wealth can not be created, then you think there is a limited amount of wealth -- so the only wealth in this British colony is a fraction of what England had in colonial days? Wealth is created when someone sells for more than their cost -- such as by using ten cents of plastic, three cents of labor, and a miniscule amount of wear on a machine, to make a toy which sells for $1.95. They use that wealth to pay taxes, pay employees, pay for the factory...and pay some to executives and shareholders.

It is due to so much wealth being created by 225 years of business that the USA has the world's largest middle class. Our society has succeeded in not allowing robber warlords to tear down any region, has destroyed major pirate organizations which threatened shipping and life ("...to the shores of Tripoli..."), and has minimized leeching criminal groups. Millions of people have been able to earn a decent living, banks have a stable economy and can make loans so people can buy homes instead of having to spend to rent, and the creation of one's own business is encouraged. Many new businesses fail, but some succeed and produce new wealth for a corner, a neighborhood, a city, or a country.

Some people in other countries are envious of the USA. Many try to improve their country and their lives. A few aren't so creative, and try to bring the USA down to their level. Making everyone poor does not improve any situation.

Fuck the Police?
by Todd
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 7:51 AM
Ya and who will you call when you need help?
Fuck the Police?
by Todd
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 7:51 AM
Ya and who will you call when you need help?
Big step back for the movement
by Bryan
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 8:15 AM
Well, as valid of an emotion as anger is, this set us back yet again. The movement against capitalism, as I understand it is also a movement FOR justice and FOR peace. Maybe I'm wrong, but this is going to take a while for this ailing anit-corporate and anti-capitalism movement to recover from. Don't get me wrong, a cop is just a cop and as sad as it is for the family, everything that man stood for was evil and currupt. The oppression he helped keep in place, even if he was so ignorant as to not realize his place in the oppressive cycle, is the real sadness. In comparison to the sadness felt by so many people worldwide as a rusult of bullshit policy and power-hungry cops/soldiers/politicians/CEO's/ you folks in California or wherever who feel the need to morn and feel bad about this one little event have very little to feel bad about. Wake up and see the oppresion and violence everywhere. What are you going to do about it? Kill a killer to prove killing is wrong so you can selfishly feel good about yourself? Wake up and work to end the systematic violence in your own lives/communities. Make the existance of cops useless if you are so damn concerned about them.
Big step back for the movement
by Bryan
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 8:15 AM
Well, as valid of an emotion as anger is, this set us back yet again. The movement against capitalism, as I understand it is also a movement FOR justice and FOR peace. Maybe I'm wrong, but this is going to take a while for this ailing anit-corporate and anti-capitalism movement to recover from. Don't get me wrong, a cop is just a cop and as sad as it is for the family, everything that man stood for was evil and currupt. The oppression he helped keep in place, even if he was so ignorant as to not realize his place in the oppressive cycle, is the real sadness. In comparison to the sadness felt by so many people worldwide as a rusult of bullshit policy and power-hungry cops/soldiers/politicians/CEO's/ you folks in California or wherever who feel the need to morn and feel bad about this one little event have very little to feel bad about. Wake up and see the oppresion and violence everywhere. What are you going to do about it? Kill a killer to prove killing is wrong so you can selfishly feel good about yourself? Wake up and work to end the systematic violence in your own lives/communities. Make the existance of cops useless if you are so damn concerned about them.
Wrong Cop
by Suggestion Box
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 8:22 AM
You would have gotten better identification if you'd taken out this one.

I agree with your arguments but not your actions. Sadly, I suspect there will be many more casualties on all sides before sanity returns.

what?
by what?
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 8:30 AM
"Maybe I'm wrong, but this is going to take a while for this ailing anit-corporate and anti-capitalism movement to recover from."

Some crazy person kills someone and makes a few local papers. I dont see how this has anything to do with the "anti-capitalism movement ". People who knew the police officer are angry but its not even a major news story outside to this guys town...
Another instance of insanity
by Keith
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 8:36 AM
Yet again!1

I found this thred just browsing through the news sites.Im from the UK who's government is getting the same way as that flea pit called the US.

Where else would someone kill an innocent to prove a well known point?If you want a change in the citadel of commerce then you must play by their rules.

Personally-I reckon you should douse yourselves in the oh so important cheap gas and light the bloody thing and be done with it.You are a virus.

Anyone is planning a trip to the moon then im coming with you cause this planet is pure shit and is getting smellier I reckon.

Thanks for reading my minor rant.

Keith
Nizead
by Tim Messer
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 8:37 AM
I agree with the Corporate slating, but it seems that you could have chosen a more high profile 'victim'. A ploice officer with dependents would not engender much public sympathy. But then, perhaps appealing to the regular Joe Public was not on your agenda. Your piece was well written and thankfully, sane.
Regards.
Texas Address does exist...
by ...
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 8:37 AM
Address given in

http://austin.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=4378&group=webcast

http://makeashorterlink.com/?V23E34692



Address given in http://baltimore.indymedia.org/newswire/display/2219/index.php

does not exist but is probably a reference to Edgar Allen Poe who lived in Baltimore

hateful city
by mc
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 8:37 AM
That Red Bluff is one hateful, spiteful city. The man "confessed"... he still has to be proven guilty. If he did it, yes, it was wrong to do, and I feel sorry for the policeman's family. But you people in Red Bluff seem to pratice a strange form of Christianity, with all your hate.

If you read past that first sentance in Andy's diatribe, you'll just find a guy who is disgusted with a country he loves. He served 3 years for a country that he finally realized is heading in the wrong direction. He's one of the few young people to do this - after the counter-culture of the early 60's was suppressed, and that generation lost their way, it was realized that the best sheep are dumb sheep. Not too many people in their 20's these days care about what is happening around them (ask anyone in their teens what the 5th Admendent affords them). If Andy's message is laced in blood, that is only because it is a reflection of the culture that surrounds him (if you want to refute that, take another look at some of the messages by dotie, and the fine girls at Red Bluff High, and others). These days, the pen is no longer stronger than the sword - the message gets across only with extreme messures, because the counter-noise is way too loud. My hope is that it will only take one.
Again, its very sad this happened, whether Andy did it or not. My grief is with the family. But remember too that Andy has a family, and though the one poster liked to speculate (alittle too fervently) about his pedigree, they are probably shocked and saddened as well. Andy has a clear, articulate message that does not normally escape past the baying of the other sheep.
Hopefully you read past his first sentance, which is there to get your attention, and stop to see what is really going on around you, and why (IF he did it) Andy felt that this was the only way to get your attention. Because if you don't, this will not be the last time.
Omfg
by Serra
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 8:38 AM
This is just terrible! I don't see how someone can do such a thing to someone just because of their profession. Cops are very good people, if there weren't cops, there would be so much more crime in this country right now!
Also sad
by 2lab
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 8:40 AM
It's sad that Andy felt that this was the only way to get his point across but he's probaly right.

I'd be prepared to bet that the people saying that Andy is evil and will burn in hell, if not the electic chair, don't complain when American bombs and policies kill innocent people around the world.

Is one death for peace worse than a thousand deaths for money?
pic
by pic
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 8:44 AM
mccrea.jpg
mccrea.jpg

Mr
by A Fox
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 8:45 AM
Wow. Anyone like to actually rebutt anything he's said?

I mean calling him a c**ksucker is hardly constructive is it?
Mr
by Browne
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 8:46 AM
I agree with his point but not the method. Wrong target/means Andy.

Ireland
Bout time!
by Jerry Middlemiss
( jerry [at] richat.com ) Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 9:09 AM
Sorry but I disagree with all you whiners out there. How many people have the police/military/spook agencies silenced unfairly? Do you think that is fair? Have they been punished?

Sometimes, the only way to make a point is to piss people off. And yes, I feel bad for his family. I myself have young children. Tough shit. It is time for us to get the system back to something resembling sanity. If we don't, then it won't be long until 1984 is really here.
THE PSYCHOLOGY OF POLITICAL VIOLENCE
by Goldman
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 9:18 AM
TO ANALYZE the psychology of political violence is not only extremely difficult, but also very dangerous. If such acts are treated with understanding, one is immediately accused of eulogizing them. If, on the other hand, human sympathy is expressed with the Attentäter, one risks being considered a possible accomplice. Yet it is only intelligence and sympathy that can bring us closer to the source of human suffering, and teach us the ultimate way out of it.

The primitive man, ignorant of natural forces, dreaded their approach, hiding from the perils they threatened. As man learned to understand Nature's phenomena, he realized that though these may destroy life and cause great loss, they also bring relief. To the earnest student it must be apparent that the accumulated forces in our social and economic life, culminating in a political act of violence, are similar to the terrors of the atmosphere, manifested in storm and lightning.

To thoroughly appreciate the truth of this view, one must feel intensely the indignity of our social wrongs; one's very being must throb with the pain, the sorrow, the despair millions of people are daily made to endure. Indeed, unless we have become a part of humanity, we cannot even faintly understand the just indignation that accumulates in a human soul, the burning, surging passion that makes the storm inevitable.

The ignorant mass looks upon the man who makes a violent protest against our social and economic iniquities as upon a wild beast, a cruel, heartless monster, whose joy it is to destroy life and bathe in blood; or at best, as upon an irresponsible lunatic. Yet nothing is further from the truth. As a matter of fact, those who have studied the character and personality of these men, or who have come in close contact with them, are agreed that it is their super-sensitiveness to the wrong and injustice surrounding them which compels them to pay the toll of our social crimes. The most noted writers and poets, discussing the psychology of political offenders, have paid them the highest tribute. Could anyone assume that these men had advised violence, or even approved of the acts? Certainly not. Theirs was the attitude of the social student, of the man who knows that beyond every violent act there is a vital cause.

Björnstjerne Björnson, in the second part of Beyond Human Power, emphasizes the fact that it is among the Anarchists that we must look for the modern martyrs who pay for their faith with their blood, and who welcome death with a smile, because they believe, as truly as Christ did, that their martyrdom will redeem humanity.

François Copp , the French novelist, thus expresses himself regarding the psychology of the Attentäter:

"The reading of the details of Vaillant's execution left me in a thoughtful mood. I imagined him expanding his chest under the ropes, marching with firm step, stiffening his will, concentrating all his energy, and, with eyes fixed upon the knife, hurling finally at society his cry of malediction. And, in spite of me, another spectacle rose suddenly before my mind. I saw a group of men and women pressing against each other in the middle of the oblong arena of the circus, under the gaze of thousands of eyes, while from all the steps of the immense amphitheatre went up the terrible cry, Ad leones! and, below, the opening cages of the wild beasts.

"I did not believe the execution would take place. In the first place, no victim had been struck with death, and it had long been the custom not to punish an abortive crime with the last degree of severity. Then, this crime, however terrible in intention, was disinterested, born of an abstract idea. The man's past, his abandoned childhood, his life of hardship, pleaded also in his favor. In the independent press generous voices were raised in his behalf, very loud and eloquent. 'A purely literary current of opinion' some have said, with no little scorn. It is, on the contrary, an honor to the men of art and thought to have expressed once more their disgust at the scaffold."

Again Zola, in Germinal and Paris, describes the tenderness and kindness, the deep sympathy with human suffering, of these men who close the chapter of their lives with a violent outbreak against our system.

Last, but not least, the man who probably better than anyone else understands the psychology of the Attentäter is M. Hamon, the author of the brilliant work Une Psychologie du Militaire Professionnel, who has arrived at these suggestive conclusions:

"The positive method confirmed by the rational method enables us to establish an ideal type of Anarchist, whose mentality is the aggregate of common psychic characteristics. Every Anarchist partakes sufficiently of this ideal type to make it possible to differentiate him from other men. The typical Anarchist, then, may be defined as follows: A man perceptible by the spirit of revolt under one or more of its forms,--opposition, investigation, criticism, innovation,--endowed with a strong love of liberty, egoistic or individualistic, and possessed of great curiosity, a keen desire to know. These traits are supplemented by an ardent love of others, a highly developed moral sensitiveness, a profound sentiment of justice, and imbued with missionary zeal."

To the above characteristics, says Alvin F. Sanborn, must be added these sterling qualities: a rare love of animals, surpassing sweetness in all the ordinary relations of life, exceptional sobriety of demeanor, frugality and regularity, austerity, even, of living, and courage beyond compare. 2

"There is a truism that the man in the street seems always to forget, when he is abusing the Anarchists, or whatever party happens to be his bête noire for the moment, as the cause of some outrage just perpetrated. This indisputable fact is that homicidal outrages have, from time immemorial, been the reply of goaded and desperate classes, and goaded and desperate individuals, to wrongs from their fellowmen, which they felt to be intolerable. Such acts are the violent recoil from violence, whether aggressive or repressive; they are the last desperate struggle of outraged and exasperated human nature for breathing space and life. And their cause lies not in any special conviction, but in the depths of that human nature itself. The whole course of history, political and social, is strewn with evidence of this fact. To go no further, take the three most notorious examples of political parties goaded into violence during the last fifty years: the Mazzinians in Italy, the Fenians in Ireland, and the Terrorists in Russia. Were these people Anarchists? No. Did they all three even hold the same political opinions? No. The Mazzinians were Republicans, the Fenians political separatists, the Russians Social Democrats or Constitutionalists. But all were driven by desperate circumstances into this terrible form of revolt. And when we turn from parties to individuals who have acted in like manner, we stand appalled by the number of human beings goaded and driven by sheer desperation into conduct obviously violently opposed to their social instincts.

"Now that Anarchism has become a living force in society, such deeds have been sometimes committed by Anarchists, as well as by others. For no new faith, even the most essentially peaceable and humane the mind of man has yet accepted, but at its first coming has brought upon earth not peace, but a sword; not because of anything violent or anti-social in the doctrine itself; simply because of the ferment any new and creative idea excites in men's minds, whether they accept or reject it. And a conception of Anarchism, which, on one hand, threatens every vested interest, and, on the other, holds out a vision of a free and noble life to be won by a struggle against existing wrongs, is certain to rouse the fiercest opposition, and bring the whole repressive force of ancient evil into violent contact with the tumultuous outburst of a new hope.

"Under miserable conditions of life, any vision of the possibility of better things makes the present misery more intolerable, and spurs those who suffer to the most energetic struggles to improve their lot, and if these struggles only immediately result in sharper misery, the outcome is sheer desperation. In our present society, for instance, an exploited wage worker, who catches a glimpse of what work and life might and ought to be, finds the toilsome routine and the squalor of his existence almost intolerable; and even when he has the resolution and courage to continue steadily working his best, and waiting until new ideas have so permeated society as to pave the way for better times, the mere fact that he has such ideas and tries to spread them, brings him into difficulties with his employers. How many thousands of Socialists, and above all Anarchists, have lost work and even the chance of work, solely on the ground of their opinions. It is only the specially gifted craftsman, who, if he be a zealous propagandist, can hope to retain permanent employment. And what happens to a man with his brain working actively with a ferment of new ideas, with a vision before his eyes of a new hope dawning for toiling and agonizing men, with the knowledge that his suffering and that of his fellows in misery is not caused by the cruelty of fate, but by the injustice of other human beings,--what happens to such a man when he sees those dear to him starving, when he himself is starved? Some natures in such a plight, and those by no means the least social or the least sensitive, will become violent, and will even feel that their violence is social and not anti-social, that in striking when and how they can, they are striking, not for themselves, but for human nature, outraged and despoiled in their persons and in those of their fellow sufferers. And are we, who ourselves are not in this horrible predicament, to stand by and coldly condemn these piteous victims of the Furies and Fates? Are we to decry as miscreants these human beings who act with heroic self-devotion, sacrificing their lives in protest, where less social and less energetic natures would lie down and grovel in abject submission to injustice and wrong? Are we to join the ignorant and brutal outcry which stigmatizes such men as monsters of wickedness, gratuitously running amuck in a harmonious and innocently peaceful society? No! We hate murder with a hatred that may seem absurdly exaggerated to apologists for Matabele massacres, to callous acquiescers in hangings and bombardments, but we decline in such cases of homicide, or attempted homicide, as those of which we are treating, to be guilty of the cruel injustice of flinging the whole responsibility of the deed upon the immediate perpetrator. The guilt of these homicides lies upon every man and woman who, intentionally or by cold indifference, helps to keep up social conditions that drive human beings to despair. The man who flings his whole life into the attempt, at the cost of his own life, to protest against the wrongs of his fellow men, is a saint compared to the active and passive upholders of cruelty and injustice, even if his protest destroy other lives besides his own. Let him who is without sin in society cast the first stone at such an one." 3

That every act of political violence should nowadays be attributed to Anarchists is not at all surprising. Yet it is a fact known to almost everyone familiar with the Anarchist movement that a great number of acts, for which Anarchists had to suffer, either originated with the capitalist press or were instigated, if not directly perpetrated, by the police.

For a number of years acts of violence had been committed in Spain, for which the Anarchists were held responsible, hounded like wild beasts, and thrown into prison. Later it was disclosed that the perpetrators of these acts were not Anarchists, but members of the police department. The scandal became so widespread that the conservative Spanish papers demanded the apprehension and punishment of the gang-leader, Juan Rull, who was subsequently condemned to death and executed. The sensational evidence, brought to light during the trial, forced Police Inspector Momento to exonerate completely the Anarchists from any connection with the acts committed during a long period. This resulted in the dismissal of a number of police officials, among them Inspector Tressols, who, in revenge, disclosed the fact that behind the gang of police bomb throwers were others of far higher position, who provided them with funds and protected them.

This is one of the many striking examples of how Anarchist conspiracies are manufactured.

That the American police can perjure themselves with the same ease, that they are just as merciless, just as brutal and cunning as their European colleagues, has been proven on more than one occasion. We need only recall the tragedy of the eleventh of November, 1887, known as the Haymarket Riot.

No one who is at all familiar with the case can possibly doubt that the Anarchists, judicially murdered in Chicago, died as victims of a lying, blood-thirsty press and of a cruel police conspiracy. Has not Judge Gary himself said: "Not because you have caused the Haymarket bomb, but because you are Anarchists, you are on trial."

The impartial and thorough analysis by Governor Altgeld of that blotch on the American escutcheon verified the brutal frankness of Judge Gary. It was this that induced Altgeld to pardon the three Anarchists, thereby earning the lasting esteem of every liberty-loving man and woman in the world.

When we approach the tragedy of September sixth, 1901, we are confronted by one of the most striking examples of how little social theories are responsible for an act of political violence. "Leon Czolgosz, an Anarchist, incited to commit the act by Emma Goldman." To be sure, has she not incited violence even before her birth, and will she not continue to do so beyond death? Everything is possible with the Anarchists.

Today, even, nine years after the tragedy, after it was proven a hundred times that Emma Goldman had nothing to do with the event, that no evidence whatsoever exists to indicate that Czolgosz ever called himself an Anarchist, we are confronted with the same lie, fabricated by the police and perpetuated by the press. No living soul ever heard Czolgosz make that statement, nor is there a single written word to prove that the boy ever breathed the accusation. Nothing but ignorance and insane hysteria, which have never yet been able to solve the simplest problem of cause and effect.

The President of a free Republic killed! What else can be the cause, except that the Attentäter must have been insane, or that he was incited to the act.

A free Republic! How a myth will maintain itself, how it will continue to deceive, to dupe, and blind even the comparatively intelligent to its monstrous absurdities. A free Republic! And yet within a little over thirty years a small band of parasites have successfully robbed the American people, and trampled upon the fundamental principles, laid down by the fathers of this country, guaranteeing to every man, woman, and child "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." For thirty years they have been increasing their wealth and power at the expense of the vast mass of workers, thereby enlarging the army of the unemployed, the hungry, homeless, and friendless portion of humanity, who are tramping the country from east to west, from north to south, in a vain search for work. For many years the home has been left to the care of the little ones, while the parents are exhausting their life and strength for a mere pittance. For thirty years the sturdy sons of America have been sacrificed on the battlefield of industrial war, and the daughters outraged in corrupt factory surroundings. For long and weary years this process of undermining the nation's health, vigor, and pride, without much protest from the disinherited and oppressed, has been going on. Maddened by success and victory, the money powers of this "free land of ours" became more and more audacious in their heartless, cruel efforts to compete with the rotten and decayed European tyrannies for supremacy of power.

In vain did a lying press repudiate Leon Czolgosz as a foreigner. The boy was a product of our own free American soil, that lulled him to sleep with,

My country, 'tis of thee,

Sweet land of liberty.

Who can tell how many times this American child had gloried in the celebration of the Fourth of July, or of Decoration Day, when he faithfully honored the Nation's dead? Who knows but that he, too, was willing to "fight for his country and die for her liberty," until it dawned upon him that those he belonged to have no country, because they have been robbed of all that they have produced; until he realized that the liberty and independence of his youthful dreams were but a farce. Poor Leon Czolgosz, your crime consisted of too sensitive a social consciousness. Unlike your idealless and brainless American brothers, your ideals soared above the belly and the bank account. No wonder you impressed the one human being among all the infuriated mob at your trial--a newspaper woman--as a visionary, totally oblivious to your surroundings. Your large, dreamy eyes must have beheld a new and glorious dawn.

Now, to a recent instance of police-manufactured Anarchist plots. In that bloodstained city Chicago, the life of Chief of Police Shippy was attempted by a young man named Averbuch. Immediately the cry was sent to the four corners of the world that Averbuch was an Anarchist, and that Anarchists were responsible for the act. Everyone who was at all known to entertain Anarchist ideas was closely watched, a number of people arrested, the library of an Anarchist group confiscated, and all meetings made impossible. It goes without saying that, as on various previous occasions, I must needs be held responsible for the act. Evidently the American police credit me with occult powers. I did not know Averbuch; in fact, had never before heard his name, and the only way I could have possibly "conspired" with him was in my astral body. But, then, the police are not concerned with logic or justice. What they seek is a target, to mask their absolute ignorance of the cause, of the psychology of a political act. Was Averbuch an Anarchist? There is no positive proof of it. He had been but three months in the country, did not know the language, and, as far as I could ascertain, was quite unknown to the Anarchists of Chicago.

What led to his act? Averbuch, like most young Russian immigrants, undoubtedly believed in the mythical liberty of America. He received his first baptism by the policeman's club during the brutal dispersement of the unemployed parade. He further experienced American equality and opportunity in the vain efforts to find an economic master. In short, a three months' sojourn in the glorious land brought him face to face with the fact that the disinherited are in the same position the world over. In his native land he probably learned that necessity knows no law--there was no difference between a Russian and an American policeman.

The question to the intelligent social student is not whether the acts of Czolgosz or Averbuch were practical, any more than whether the thunderstorm is practical. The thing that will inevitably impress itself on the thinking and feeling man and woman is that the sight of brutal clubbing of innocent victims in a so-called free Republic, and the degrading, soul-destroying economic struggle, furnish the spark that kindles the dynamic force in the overwrought, outraged souls of men like Czolgosz or Averbuch. No amount of persecution, of hounding, of repression, can stay this social phenomenon.

But, it is often asked, have not acknowledged Anarchists committed acts of violence? Certainly they have, always however ready to shoulder the responsibility. My contention is that they were impelled, not by the teachings of Anarchism, but by the tremendous pressure of conditions, making life unbearable to their sensitive natures. Obviously, Anarchism, or any other social theory, making man a conscious social unit, will act as a leaven for rebellion. This is not a mere assertion, but a fact verified by all experience. A close examination of the circumstances bearing upon this question will further clarify my position.

Let us consider some of the most important Anarchist acts within the last two decades. Strange as it may seem, one of the most significant deeds of political violence occurred here in America, in connection with the Homestead strike of 1892.

During that memorable time the Carnegie Steel Company organized a conspiracy to crush the Amalgamated Association of Iron and Steel Workers. Henry Clay Frick, then Chairman of the Company, was intrusted with that democratic task. He lost no time in carrying out the policy of breaking the Union, the policy which he had so successfully practiced during his reign of terror in the coke regions. Secretly, and while peace negotiations were being purposely prolonged, Frick supervised the military preparations, the fortification of the Homestead Steel Works, the erection of a high board fence, capped with barbed wire and provided with loopholes for sharpshooters. And then, in the dead of night, he attempted to smuggle his army of hired Pinkerton thugs into Homestead, which act precipitated the terrible carnage of the steel workers. Not content with the death of eleven victims, killed in the Pinkerton skirmish, Henry Clay Frick, good Christian and free American, straightway began the hounding down of the helpless wives and orphans, by ordering them out of the wretched Company houses.

The whole country was aroused over these inhuman outrages. Hundreds of voices were raised in protest, calling on Frick to desist, not to go too far. Yes, hundreds of people protested,--as one objects to annoying flies. Only one there was who actively responded to the outrage at Homestead,--Alexander Berkman. Yes, he was an Anarchist. He gloried in that fact, because it was the only force that made the discord between his spiritual longing and the world without at all bearable. Yet not Anarchism, as such, but the brutal slaughter of the eleven steel workers was the urge for Alexander Berkman's act, his attempt on the life of Henry Clay Frick.

The record of European acts of political violence affords numerous and striking instances of the influence of environment upon sensitive human beings.

The court speech of Vaillant, who, in 1894, exploded a bomb in the Paris Chamber of Deputies, strikes the true keynote of the psychology of such acts:

"Gentlemen, in a few minutes you are to deal your blow, but in receiving your verdict I shall have at least the satisfaction of having wounded the existing society, that cursed society in which one may see a single man spending, uselessly, enough to feed thousands of families; an infamous society which permits a few individuals to monopolize all the social wealth, while there are hundreds of thousands of unfortunates who have not even the bread that is not refused to dogs, and while entire families are committing suicide for want of the necessities of life.

"Ah, gentlemen, if the governing classes could go down among the unfortunates! But no, they prefer to remain deaf to their appeals. It seems that a fatality impels them, like the royalty of the eighteenth century, toward the precipice which will engulf them, for woe be to those who remain deaf to the cries of the starving, woe to those who, believing themselves of superior essence, assume the right to exploit those beneath them! There comes a time when the people no longer reason; they rise like a hurricane, and pass away like a torrent. Then we see bleeding heads impaled on pikes.

"Among the exploited, gentlemen, there are two classes of individuals. Those of one class, not realizing what they are and what they might be, take life as it comes, believe that they are born to be slaves, and content themselves with the little that is given them in exchange for their labor. But there are others, on the contrary, who think, who study, and who, looking about them, discover social iniquities. Is it their fault if they see clearly and suffer at seeing others suffer? Then they throw themselves into the struggle, and make themselves the bearers of the popular claims.

"Gentlemen, I am one of these last. Wherever I have gone, I have seen unfortunates bent beneath the yoke of capital. Everywhere I have seen the same wounds causing tears of blood to flow, even in the remoter parts of the inhabited districts of South America, where I had the right to believe that he who was weary of the pains of civilization might rest in the shade of the palm trees and there study nature. Well, there even, more than elsewhere, I have seen capital come, like a vampire, to suck the last drop of blood of the unfortunate pariahs.

"Then I came back to France, where it was reserved for me to see my family suffer atrociously. This was the last drop in the cup of my sorrow. Tired of leading this life of suffering and cowardice, I carried this bomb to those who are primarily responsible for social misery.

"I am reproached with the wounds of those who were hit by my projectiles. Permit me to point out in passing that, if the bourgeois had not massacred or caused massacres during the Revolution, it is probable that they would still be under the yoke of the nobility. On the other hand, figure up the dead and wounded on Tonquin, Madagascar, Dahomey, adding thereto the thousands, yes, millions of unfortunates who die in the factories, the mines, and wherever the grinding power of capital is felt. Add also those who die of hunger, and all this with the assent of our Deputies. Beside all this, of how little weight are the reproaches now brought against me!

"It is true that one does not efface the other; but, after all, are we not acting on the defensive when we respond to the blows which we receive from above? I know very well that I shall be told that I ought to have confined myself to speech for the vindication of the people's claims. But what can you expect! It takes a loud voice to make the deaf hear. Too long have they answered our voices by imprisonment, the rope, rifle volleys. Make no mistake; the explosion of my bomb is not only the cry of the rebel Vaillant, but the cry of an entire class which vindicates its rights, and which will soon add acts to words. For, be sure of it, in vain will they pass laws. The ideas of the thinkers will not halt; just as, in the last century, all the governmental forces could not prevent the Diderots and the Voltaires from spreading emancipating ideas among the people, so all the existing governmental forces will not prevent the Reclus, the Darwins, the Spencers, the Ibsens, the Mirbeaus, from spreading the ideas of justice and liberty which will annihilate the prejudices that hold the mass in ignorance. And these ideas, welcomed by the unfortunate, will flower in acts of revolt as they have done in me, until the day when the disappearance of authority shall permit all men to organize freely according to their choice, when everyone shall be able to enjoy the product of his labor, and when those moral maladies called prejudices shall vanish, permitting human beings to live in harmony, having no other desire than to study the sciences and love their fellows.

"I conclude, gentlemen, by saying that a society in which one sees such social inequalities as we see all about us, in which we see every day suicides caused by poverty, prostitution flaring at every street corner,--a society whose principal monuments are barracks and prisons,--such a society must be transformed as soon as possible, on pain of being eliminated, and that speedily, from the human race. Hail to him who labors, by no matter what means, for this transformation! It is this idea that has guided me in my duel with authority, but as in this duel I have only wounded my adversary, it is now its turn to strike me.

"Now, gentlemen, to me it matters little what penalty you may inflict, for, looking at this assembly with the eyes of reason, I can not help smiling to see you, atoms lost in matter, and reasoning only because you possess a prolongation of the spinal marrow, assume the right to judge one of your fellows.

"Ah! gentlemen, how little a thing is your assembly and your verdict in the history of humanity; and human history, in its turn, is likewise a very little thing in the whirlwind which bears it through immensity, and which is destined to disappear, or at least to be transformed, in order to begin again the same history and the same facts, a veritably perpetual play of cosmic forces renewing and transferring themselves forever."

Will anyone say that Vaillant was an ignorant, vicious man, or a lunatic? Was not his mind singularly clear and analytic? No wonder that the best intellectual forces of France spoke in his behalf, and signed the petition to President Carnot, asking him to commute Vaillant's death sentence.

Carnot would listen to no entreaty; he insisted on more than a pound of flesh, he wanted Vaillant's life, and then--the inevitable happened: President Carnot was killed. On the handle of the stiletto used by the Attentäter was engraved, significantly,

VAILLANT!

Santa Caserio was an Anarchist. He could have gotten away, saved himself; but he remained, he stood the consequences.

His reasons for the act are set forth in so simple, dignified, and childlike manner that one is reminded of the touching tribute paid Caserio by his teacher of the little village school, Ada Negri, the Italian poet, who spoke of him as a sweet, tender plant, of too fine and sensitive texture to stand the cruel strain of the world.

"Gentlemen of the Jury! I do not propose to make a defense, but only an explanation of my deed.

"Since my early youth I began to learn that present society is badly organized, so badly that every day many wretched men commit suicide, leaving women and children in the most terrible distress. Workers, by thousands, seek for work and can not find it. Poor families beg for food and shiver with cold; they suffer the greatest misery; the little ones ask their miserable mothers for food, and the mothers cannot give it to them, because they have nothing. The few things which the home contained have already been sold or pawned. All they can do is beg alms; often they are arrested as vagabonds.

"I went away from my native place because I was frequently moved to tears at seeing little girls of eight or ten years obliged to work fifteen hours a day for the paltry pay of twenty centimes. Young women of eighteen or twenty also work fifteen hours daily, for a mockery of remuneration. And that happens not only to my fellow countrymen, but to all the workers, who sweat the whole day long for a crust of bread, while their labor produces wealth in abundance. The workers are obliged to live under the most wretched conditions, and their food consists of a little bread, a few spoonfuls of rice, and water; so by the time they are thirty or forty years old, they are exhausted, and go to die in the hospitals. Besides, in consequence of bad food and overwork, these unhappy creatures are, by hundreds, devoured by pellagra--a disease that, in my country, attacks, as the physicians say, those who are badly fed and lead a life of toil and privation.

"I have observed that there are a great many people who are hungry, and many children who suffer, whilst bread and clothes abound in the towns. I saw many and large shops full of clothing and woolen stuffs, and I also saw warehouses full of wheat and Indian corn, suitable for those who are in want. And, on the other hand, I saw thousands of people who do not work, who produce nothing and live on the labor of others; who spend every day thousands of francs for their amusement; who debauch the daughters of the workers; who own dwellings of forty or fifty rooms; twenty or thirty horses, many servants; in a word, all the pleasures of life.

"I believed in God; but when I saw so great an inequality between men, I acknowledged that it was not God who created man, but man who created God. And I discovered that those who want their property to be respected, have an interest in preaching the existence of paradise and hell, and in keeping the people in ignorance.

"Not long ago, Vaillant threw a bomb in the Chamber of Deputies, to protest against the present system of society. He killed no one, only wounded some persons; yet bourgeois justice sentenced him to death. And not satisfied with the condemnation of the guilty man, they began to pursue the Anarchists, and arrest not only those who had known Vaillant, but even those who had merely been present at any Anarchist lecture.

"The government did not think of their wives and children. It did not consider that the men kept in prison were not the only ones who suffered, and that their little ones cried for bread. Bourgeois justice did not trouble itself about these innocent ones, who do not yet know what society is. It is no fault of theirs that their fathers are in prison; they only want to eat.

"The government went on searching private houses, opening private letters, forbidding lectures and meetings, and practicing the most infamous oppressions against us. Even now, hundreds of Anarchists are arrested for having written an article in a newspaper, or for having expressed an opinion in public.

"Gentlemen of the Jury, you are representatives of bourgeois society. If you want my head, take it; but do not believe that in so doing you will stop the Anarchist propaganda. Take care, for men reap what they have sown."

During a religious procession in 1896, at Barcelona, a bomb was thrown. Immediately three hundred men and women were arrested. Some were Anarchists, but the majority were trade-unionists and Socialists. They were thrown into that terrible bastille Montjuich, and subjected to most horrible tortures. After a number had been killed, or had gone insane, their cases were taken up by the liberal press of Europe, resulting in the release of a few survivors.

The man primarily responsible for this revival of the Inquisition was Canovas del Castillo, Prime Minister of Spain. It was he who ordered the torturing of the victims, their flesh burned, their bones crushed, their tongues cut out. Practiced in the art of brutality during his r gime in Cuba, Canovas remained absolutely deaf to the appeals and protests of the awakened civilized conscience.

In 1897 Canovas del Castillo was shot to death by a young Italian, Angiolillo. The latter was an editor in his native land, and his bold utterances soon attracted the attention of the authorities. Persecution began, and Angiolillo fled from Italy to Spain, thence to France and Belgium, finally settling in England. While there he found employment as a compositor, and immediately became the friend of all his colleagues. One of the latter thus described Angiolillo: "His appearance suggested the journalist rather than the disciple of Guttenberg. His delicate hands, moreover, betrayed the fact that he had not grown up at the 'case.' With his handsome frank face, his soft dark hair, his alert expression, he looked the very type of the vivacious Southerner. Angiolillo spoke Italian, Spanish, and French, but no English; the little French I knew was not sufficient to carry on a prolonged conversation. However, Angiolillo soon began to acquire the English idiom; he learned rapidly, playfully, and it was not long until he became very popular with his fellow compositors. His distinguished and yet modest manner, and his consideration towards his colleagues, won him the hearts of all the boys."

Angiolillo soon became familiar with the detailed accounts in the press. He read of the great wave of human sympathy with the helpless victims at Montjuich. On Trafalgar Square he saw with his own eyes the results of those atrocities, when the few Spaniards, who escaped Castillo's clutches, came to seek asylum in England. There, at the great meeting, these men opened their shirts and showed the horrible scars of burned flesh. Angiolillo saw, and the effect surpassed a thousand theories; the impetus was beyond words, beyond arguments, beyond himself even.

Señor Antonio Canovas del Castillo, Prime Minister of Spain, sojourned at Santa Agueda. As usual in such cases, all strangers were kept away from his exalted presence. One exception was made, however, in the case of a distinguished looking, elegantly dressed Italian--the representative, it was understood, of an important journal. The distinguished gentleman was--Angiolillo.

Señor Canovas, about to leave his house, stepped on the veranda. Suddenly Angiolillo confronted him. A shot rang out, and Canovas was a corpse.

The wife of the Prime Minister rushed upon the scene. "Murderer! Murderer!" she cried, pointing at Angiolillo. The latter bowed. "Pardon, Madame," he said, "I respect you as a lady, but I regret that you were the wife of that man."

Calmly Angiolillo faced death. Death in its most terrible form--for the man whose soul was as a child's.

He was garroted. His body lay, sun-kissed, till the day hid in twilight. And the people came, and pointing the finger of terror and fear, they said: "There--the criminal--the cruel murderer."

How stupid, how cruel is ignorance! It misunderstands always, condemns always.

A remarkable parallel to the case of Angiolillo is to be found in the act of Gaetano Bresci, whose Attentat upon King Umberto made an American city famous.

Bresci came to this country, this land of opportunity, where one has but to try to meet with golden success. Yes, he too would try to succeed. He would work hard and faithfully. Work had no terrors for him, if it would only help him to independence, manhood, self-respect.

Thus full of hope and enthusiasm he settled in Paterson, New Jersey, and there found a lucrative job at six dollars per week in one of the weaving mills of the town. Six whole dollars per week was, no doubt, a fortune for Italy, but not enough to breathe on in the new country. He loved his little home. He was a good husband and devoted father to his bambina Bianca, whom he adored. He worked and worked for a number of years. He actually managed to save one hundred dollars out of his six dollars per week.

Bresci had an ideal. Foolish, I know, for a workingman to have an ideal,--the Anarchist paper published in Paterson, La Questione Sociale.

Every week, though tired from work, he would help to set up the paper. Until later hours he would assist, and when the little pioneer had exhausted all resources and his comrades were in despair, Bresci brought cheer and hope, one hundred dollars, the entire savings of years. That would keep the paper afloat.

In his native land people were starving. The crops had been poor, and the peasants saw themselves face to face with famine. They appealed to their good King Umberto; he would help. And he did. The wives of the peasants who had gone to the palace of the King, held up in mute silence their emaciated infants. Surely that would move him. And then the soldiers fired and killed those poor fools.

Bresci, at work in the weaving mill at Paterson, read of the horrible massacre. His mental eye beheld the defenceless women and innocent infants of his native land, slaughtered right before the good King. His soul recoiled in horror. At night he heard the groans of the wounded. Some may have been his comrades, his own flesh. Why, why these foul murders?

The little meeting of the Italian Anarchist group in Paterson ended almost in a fight. Bresci had demanded his hundred dollars. His comrades begged, implored him to give them a respite. The paper would go down if they were to return him his loan. But Bresci insisted on its return.

How cruel and stupid is ignorance. Bresci got the money, but lost the good will, the confidence of his comrades. They would have nothing more to do with one whose greed was greater than his ideals.

On the twenty-ninth of July, 1900, King Umberto was shot at Monzo. The young Italian weaver of Paterson, Gaetano Bresci, had taken the life of the good King.

Paterson was placed under police surveillance, everyone known as an Anarchist hounded and persecuted, and the act of Bresci ascribed to the teachings of Anarchism. As if the teachings of Anarchism in its extremest form could equal the force of those slain women and infants, who had pilgrimed to the King for aid. As if any spoken word, ever so eloquent, could burn into a human soul with such white heat as the lifeblood trickling drop by drop from those dying forms. The ordinary man is rarely moved either by word or deed; and those whose social kinship is the greatest living force need no appeal to respond--even as does steel to the magnet--to the wrongs and horrors of society.

If a social theory is a strong factor inducing acts of political violence, how are we to account for the recent violent outbreaks in India, where Anarchism has hardly been born. More than any other old philosophy, Hindu teachings have exalted passive resistance, the drifting of life, the Nirvana, as the highest spiritual ideal. Yet the social unrest in India is daily growing, and has only recently resulted in an act of political violence, the killing of Sir Curzon Wyllie by the Hindu Madar Sol Dhingra.

If such a phenomenon can occur in a country socially and individually permeated for centuries with the spirit of passivity, can one question the tremendous, revolutionizing effect on human character exerted by great social iniquities? Can one doubt the logic, the justice of these words:

"Repression, tyranny, and indiscriminate punishment of innocent men have been the watchwords of the government of the alien domination in India ever since we began the commercial boycott of English goods. The tiger qualities of the British are much in evidence now in India. They think that by the strength of the sword they will keep down India! It is this arrogance that has brought about the bomb, and the more they tyrannize over a helpless and unarmed people, the more terrorism will grow. We may deprecate terrorism as outlandish and foreign to our culture, but it is inevitable as long as this tyranny continues, for it is not the terrorists that are to be blamed, but the tyrants who are responsible for it. It is the only resource for a helpless and unarmed people when brought to the verge of despair. It is never criminal on their part. The crime lies with the tyrant." 4

Even conservative scientists are beginning to realize that heredity is not the sole factor moulding human character. Climate, food, occupation; nay, color, light, and sound must be considered in the study of human psychology.

If that be true, how much more correct is the contention that great social abuses will and must influence different minds and temperaments in a different way. And how utterly fallacious the stereotyped notion that the teachings of Anarchism, or certain exponents of these teachings, are responsible for the acts of political violence.

Anarchism, more than any other social theory, values human life above things. All Anarchists agree with Tolstoy in this fundamental truth: if the production of any commodity necessitates the sacrifice of human life, society should do without that commodity, but it can not do without that life. That, however, nowise indicates that Anarchism teaches submission. How can it, when it knows that all suffering, all misery, all ills, result from the evil of submission?

Has not some American ancestor said, many years ago, that resistance to tyranny is obedience to God? And he was not an Anarchist even. It would say that resistance to tyranny is man's highest ideal. So long as tyranny exists, in whatever form, man's deepest aspiration must resist it as inevitably as man must breathe.

Compared with the wholesale violence of capital and government, political acts of violence are but a drop in the ocean. That so few resist is the strongest proof how terrible must be the conflict between their souls and unbearable social iniquities.

High strung, like a violin string, they weep and moan for life, so relentless, so cruel, so terribly inhuman. In a desperate moment the string breaks. Untuned ears hear nothing but discord. But those who feel the agonized cry understand its harmony; they hear in it the fulfillment of the most compelling moment of human nature.

Such is the psychology of political violence.
One of yours
by Heckman
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 9:19 AM
This man is one of your activist brothers. You share the blame for the death of an honorable man.
and
by and
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 9:22 AM
human beings can be dissolved, by the state.
cop killing dumbass
by thx1138
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 10:04 AM
Andy will spend the rest of his life as a guest of the state.

In terms of ideas, this article commits several grave errors.

1. It doesn't say anything new.
2. Some of it is actually false.
3. It doesn't do the progressive cause any good.

Furthermore, if he actually did kill a police officer (as it seems he did) to make a point about corporate irresponsibility, he's a common murderer who deserves to rot in prison for the rest of his days. The common ordinary cop is not (necessarily) the enemy. They are workers involved with a difficult task of dealing with criminal assholes. Some do take their "job" a little more seriously than they should, and commit atrocious acts of violence and corruption that a fair and free society should not tolerate.

At the same time, if some crackhead clocks me with a bat for $27, a ballpoint pen, and a box of cough drops, the constabulary should be notified with a description so they can apprehend the violent moron and give him some time to think about his violent acts of ignorance. If some testosterone poisoned shithead with anger management problems strangles his wife for being late with dinner, the cops should be informed so they can track his stupid ass down for a permanent stay in the local pen.

The police, as much as I find them distasteful as a group, are not the enemy. Also, if Andy was so intent on making a statement, he should have iced some slathering plutocrat, or some other member of the ruling kleptocracy, not some underpaid civil servant.

Now as to my points:

1. It doesn't say anything new.
This is obvious. It doesn't. We have been apprised of these facts (that the government is corrupt and owned by corporations) for quite some time now. Heck - Nader ran for president and got several percent of the vote on JUST THAT VERY POINT. Andy did not need to go hurt anyone to state the obvious.

2. Some of it is demonstrably false.

"Hermann Goering, Hitler’s master of propaganda, explained the process like this- "

Goering was the head of the Luftwaffe, not propaganda. He had a significant hand in NAZI affairs, but "Hitler's Master of Propaganda" was Goebbels.

Also, invoking the NAZIs is not a good way to bolster one's argument, as it tends to invoke Godwin's Law. Look it up. The Goering thing noted above is just one of several factual errors. If you're going to write a diatribe, get your facts straight.

3. Terrorist acts like this are acts of ignorance and do NOTHING to further progressive aims of peace, truth, freedom, and justice. Such acts come from a loathsome and elitist perspective which does nothing to further the cause. Actual change comes from organising people to act in a group out of shared self interest as a group. When people get together to act in the common cause, *then change happens*. Terroristic idiots shooting cops doesn't accomplish much of anything except shatter families and clutter the prison system with misguided murderers. When the anarchist Leon Czolgosz, shot McKinley, did that stop American imperialism? Hell No. Did the Unabomber stop the march of technology? Hell No. Did thousands of people marching on Birmingham change voting rights laws? Hell YES! Did millions of people marching in parades and protests in the USA help stop the Viet Nam war? Hell YES! Did millions of men and women marching on Washington help the ERA pass congress? Yup. Sure did. Even though the ERA failed in the states, feminism did not go away, and is still a powerful force for progressive change in this, and many other, countries.

THAT'S HOW THINGS CHANGE. People with common cause and shared interests getting together to fight evil - that's how you change things. Shooting Cops is just plain stupid. Cops just do as they're told. If they're told to go arrest corporate criminals, I'm sure they would do it with as much gusto and amusement as they would in apprehending the likes of Andy CopKiller. Converting the police to your side means being THEIR BOSS. Someone has to sign their pay cheques. ELECT PROGRESSIVE PEOPLE to your city or town council. Inform and organise your neighbours. Yes- the couple upstairs who watch TV all day. The family with the screaming kids across the hall. The guy in the suburban ranch next door who sells propane - get HIM on your side. If your message is clearly and calmly brought across, and you can show how the truth of your position will benefit them, you will shine and convince.

But shooting cops? Dumb Idea #1. With a bullet.
-
by Grobelaar
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 10:08 AM
...to protect and serve what?

Well property of course, crumbs you people didn't think it was people. People replace themselves very efficiently, something to do with biology. Property on the other hand is expensive....

What did you think was meant when people said Possession is 9/10 of the law...

Consider the fact that in the UK you get 25 years for armed bank robbery and only 'Life' (out in 10 years) for murder and even less for rape...
coward
by Nick Siligo
( s4nmcdon [at] rbuhsd.k12.ca.us ) Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 10:11 AM
This dude is a completed coward. He came up and killed officer Dave Mobilio for no reason. Dave has a wife and kid. Now, how are they going to live without a husband and a father?
coward
by Nick Siligo
( s4nmcdon [at] rbuhsd.k12.ca.us ) Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 10:13 AM
This dude is a completed coward. He came up and killed officer Dave Mobilio for no reason. Dave has a wife and kid. Now, how are they going to live without a husband and a father?
Dr
by Owen
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 10:15 AM

Those who have had no share in the good fortunes of the mighty often have a share in their misfortunes. Bertold Brecht The Caucasian Chalk Circle 1949

Officer Shot
by Dodie
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 10:16 AM
Bring him to us here in Red Bluff!!!!!
Nuts!!!
by Cop
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 10:23 AM
What the hell! Go find another chunk of this earth and set up your little utopia. This freak and the others in here like Alciere, etc. should be put out to sea in four person rafts and set adrift in the predominant tides. if they wash back up to the shores of this fine country, incarcerate them within the same room and let their little utopian dream become a reality... they'll soon learn the lesson of "The Prince". If they opt to escape from their little utopian building... put them to work in factories assembling furniture, on the street driving cabs and buses, in the hospitals tending to the sick and injured, ... you know, lead them down that frightful and tormented path that the rest of us have had to travel for so long... self sufficiency without government or corporate subsistence!

Yeah, if we make them work for a living then they'd all want out!

Rot in hell McRae!!!

A cop in Olympia!
Young and dumb
by Cherry
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 10:26 AM
I do believe that he does have some valid points in his umm...speach...but, I don't think he's getting anything accomplished by shooting someone. Especially a police officer. Now he's going to do a good chunck of time and he'll be forgotten about in a week or two. Poor sap.
Copping out of cop murder coverage
by just curious
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 10:35 AM
Yesterday, Andrew McCrae was arrested for the murder of a Red Bluff, CA (Sacramento area) police officer after the FBI was tipped to a couple of his posts that appeared on this site, sf.indymedia.org.

I questioned why the SF-IMC staff did not promote this story with obvious local connections to a front-page feautre. The rude replies I recieved were genuinely obstinate and unhelpful.

See my questions and nessie's callous replies on this thread: http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/11/1543744_comment.php#1546069

Now the story about how "some guy got shot, That's not news" doesn't appear anywhere on the front page--not even the far-right side column. Does this seem strange to you?

Then consider that the Portland IMC and IMC global sites are prominently featuring this story prominently in center column on their respective home pages. (Portland actually has two, count-em two, center column features regarding the story.)

For SF-IMC to pretend this story isn't important and doesn't have an obvious local connection just makes this site look like they have something to hide. SF-IMC should do the right thing and feature this important local story the same way Portland IMC and IMC global has.
re: officer shot
by 2lab
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 10:48 AM
"Bring him to us here in Red Bluff!!!!!"

You seem angry, Dodie, maybe you'd like to kill this man, If so you must now understand why people who see their families killed by US policies want to kill US citizens.
screw dodie
by pissed off
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 11:30 AM
screw you Dodie! What would you do if he came here? Or when he comes? You will sit on your fat ass and cuss at the tv. Dave deserved to die. He is or was a Child molestor.
DC
by DC
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 11:31 AM
You're a dillusional left wing extremist. I'll note here, that corporations employ the citizens of our country. They provide our goods, and most companies actively allow themselves to become "bought out" by allowing that percentage of their company to be sold. The competition that drives the greed you see occuring, is the same competition that lets you get low cost goods.

Next bear in mind that you are not paying for their rugs. The richest people in this country, despite their write offs and legal maneuvering, still pay quite a bit larger sum then the rest of us per person and a huge percentage overall. Percentage based tax cuts are adversial to leftists, because it actually means someone might keep more of their own money then you would like. A leftist only thinks taxation is wrong when its from them. The same people you hate are the ones that allow your family to pay for their home.

Next, you should remember that your jealousy at people holding more wealth then you is pathetic. They don't make their money through cheating and stealing, and I know many people who've accrued a pretty sum of money starting with little to nothing. They may not be Bill Gates, but they hold their own farely well, through hard work and ingenuity. You'd do well to try and emulate that, rather then bitching at everyone making more then you as if they screwed you.

Why don't you stop your whining, get a job, and if you want to change the way things work instead of being a self righteous jackass you can actually go out and make things better by running for office. You'll learn two things from running for office. A) Half of your ideas will be shot down with cold hard fact. B) You'll realize that the average citizen doesn't agree with you for very good reasons.

Stop the trolling.
True...but good case law
by A Cop
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 11:40 AM
(WTF • wrote....
"..out on the streets protecting us from trash like you!"
"Protecting you? That's a laugh.....
THE POLICE ARE NOT OBLIGATED TO PROTECT ANY INDIVIDUAL PERSON FROM HARM
This section serves to illuminate the existence of bad Police policy, anti-rights legislation, a domestic threat, and poor judicial remedy. The following true story is unacceptable, intolerable, and must be prevented from re-occurring ...

"Ruth Brunell called the police on 20 different occasions to beg for protection from her husband. He was arrested only one time. One evening Mr. Brunell telephoned his wife and told her he was coming over to kill her. When she called the police, they refused her request that they come to protect her. They told her to call back when he got there. Mr. Brunell stabbed his wife to death before she could call the police to tell them he was there. The court held that the San Jose police were not liable for ignoring Mrs. Brunell's pleas for help. Hartzler v. City of San Jose, (1975) 46 Cal.App. 3d 6.

But doesn't just about every Law Enforcement Agency's "Mission Statement" include the words "... to serve and protect ...." ? So then protect what? Obviously it isn't the people . . . ")


I have not personally verified Hartzler v. City of San Jose, (1975) before writing this, but based on training I have received I believe this to be correct. It is true that the police can't be held liable for other people's actions. The police can only be held liable for individuals in their custody or in situations in which they have placed an individual in greater danger than they were already in through some act of negligence. So why is this a bad thing? Would you rather live in a true "police state" where the police had so much monitoring and control over individuals that they would take on the liability of of truely being responsible for others actions? That is a fictional world and no one wants to live like that. We live in a free democratic society. The police are not and can not be personal body guards. For one thing, society does not want to pay for that level of service. Individuals are responsible for their own actions and their own personal protection. That does not mean that law enforcement agencies do not try to live up to their mission statements to "serve and protect". Police have a responsibility to protect "society" and not any one "individual". Police protect the society they work for every day by taking dangerous criminals off the streets, gathering terrorist intelligence, dispursing riots, preventing crime, enforcing traffic laws, educating the public, and responding to crimes in progress where they DO risk their lives protecting individuals from dangerous criminals. The fact that "THE POLICE ARE NOT OBLIGATED TO PROTECT ANY INDIVIDUAL PERSON FROM HARM" really only means that they can not be held civilly or criminally liable for another individual's criminal actions. That criminal is the liable party. I would like to point out that the police's response to domestic violence situations has improved greatly since this case in 1975. Domestic violence is now a felony in most states as opposed to mostly misdemeanor crimes back then. The police can also now request for Emergency Protective Orders. In the past their was a tendency by some police to view domestic situations as private matters and thus they tended to not get involved as much or make as many arrests. This attitude by police as well as the laws have changed since then giving the police more tools to deal with domestic violence.

I am a police officer and proud of it. My career allows me to do more good for society than many people ever do. My thoughts go out to Officer Mobilio and his family. Justice will be served but he can never be replaced.
Mr.
by Rob
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 11:52 AM
1. Want to make a differance? - VOTE
2. The poblem is not our government or bussiness, but a few individuals that take advantage of the system or take matters into their own hands. If you feel that bussiness has to large of a grip on our governments the thing of this: The one thing big bussiness can not buy, is our individual vote. Be informed and make smart dicissions. This is the greatest threat to special interest groups.
Mr.
by Rob
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 11:55 AM
1. Want to make a difference? - VOTE
2. The problem is not our government or business, but a few individuals that take advantage of the system to further their wealth or the individuals take matters into their own hands. If you feel that business has to large of a grip on our government, Please READ: The one thing big business cannot buy, is our individual vote. Be informed and make smart decisions. This is the greatest threat to special interest groups.
Little Timmy
by Timmy Jackson
( neptune603 [at] usa.com ) Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 11:57 AM
Jeezus, Andy...

I agree with all of your ideas here, but killing a cop? That's a good way to make people consider your ideas extremist and ignore them, then return to their sellout lives.

dumb little meta detail
by Robin Skyler
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 11:59 AM
Would it be possible to edit the link that's screwing up the text wrapping on this page? This has become kind of an important historical document, and it ought to be readable.
The big picture
by nope
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 12:00 PM
First off, I do not agree with murder, PERIOD. Not by Andy McCrae, not by any police officer, not by George Bush's army, not by Osama Bin Laden, not by the CIA, or the FBI, and not by any multi-national corporation.

The big picture here is that we are living in a world of attrocity. US history is written in blood, and continues to be EVERYDAY. Those who have posted so far seem to be focusing on a small aspect of the situation. With varying degrees of intelligence most seem to be decrying the death of the good police officer. I agree, murder is wrong. I think what Andy is trying to get across in his letter though, (and it appears as though the murder is his way of getting his letter "out") is to draw attention to various types of murder and wrong doings that go on everyday in our society that are continually looked over because they make up the "fabric" of our society. I think what Andy is most trying to point out is the way that corporations in our society are allowed to "murder," and face no responsability for their actions. Corporations exist to obtain profit, not to care for people, not to provide security. They have the privilege of setting the rules, because they can afford to buy influence in our government. If you do the research youll find that a lot of high ups in Bush's cabinet are former lobbyists for corporations. Still receieving $$ from them no doubt. Anyhow, what I'm trying to say is that Andy sees soemthing wrong with how our society is working. He is right. He was desperate to make change, and to expose people to the truth that he has discovered. I do not agree with what he did. Don't ignore his message because of the awful decision he made to express it.

Someone who took a much better path in getting the word out about the REALITY of corporate control is
Thom Hartmann. His book UNEQUAL PROTECTION is incredible, and outlines the way in which we can begin to take back power from the corporations that are controlling our food, our news, our environment, our water, our government, OUR LIVES. Please read it and see the big picture.

We are now entered a time of needed change. What is life worth if we are to live in fear of each other? We must realize who has brought us to this point, and realize the necessary steps to begin living in a better world now. I want my children to live in a better world.
We give up too much control to those whose only interest lies in making $$, and consolidating power.
Im taking my life back, how about you?
the big picture is.........
by pissed off
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 12:05 PM

THE BIG PICTURE IS DAVE WAS A CHILD MOLESTOR WHO HAND CUFFED LITTLE CHILDREN AND LIKED TO WATCH THEM SQUIRM

More from the Doctor
by Oscar Beard
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 12:06 PM
I've been reading the mails from all this, and it has made me think more. Thought I better add too, after looking at my last mail, i don't condone violence, killing cops isn't going to do anything, except get every suspected anti-capitalist under surveillance, and listed and a terrorist organisation.
The good work i meant of Andy was the piece he had put out here on the site, not killing a cop.
He knows, but as many of you have said, this is a bad blow for those who don't agree with how the world is going. This is going to leave it open for the governments to do whatever they want in the fight against internal dissent.
I mean, after all, if you don't like the way of today's world there must be something wrong with you, right?
It couldn't possibly be that the world has really turned into a bad place, could it?
And we all know why. That's why we are looking at web sites like this.
Take care everyone reading this, finding this story out has been a bad day for me.

*
by 23
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 12:15 PM
Andy, you and your friends and allies on this site are true pieces of the rankest shit on this earth. Why don't all of you save us alot of tax dollars and blow your own heads off. The world would be such a better place. Thanks.
how can you say that ^ ^ ^
by .
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 12:16 PM
i dunno how you can say that rob...look at last years election, your vote doesn't mean shit.
WAY TO GO WTF
by BUBBA
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 12:32 PM
YOUR A BIGGER IDIOT THAN THE COP KILLER, BUT WE HAVE A ROPE FOR YOU TO! WE'LL SHOW YOU !
Dodie
by Troy Prouty*
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 12:41 PM
Dodie makes little sense.

He uses the Bible to jusitfy the death of a person. A person guilty of murder.

Violence and death have no belonging in our lifes.

This is the problem with religion, this is why I believe religion to be bad.

We say in one hand love thy neighbor, in the other we say an eye for an eye. What crock !!

death sentences are nothing more then justifying murder and have little to do with true punishment.

Anger is nothing more then a disease that takes victims and makes then react foolishly.
Wow.....
by kicker25
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 12:44 PM
This is unbelievable. The world is a screwed up place. There are crooked cops and crooked corporations, but there are also honest cops and honest corporations. I personally dont see how killing Dave Mobilio proved a point, other than whoever killed him has a really f**ked up view on life.
H
by Troy prouty*
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 12:45 PM
Your mother should keep you from posting crap like that.

Obviously a close minded twit of some sort. You will find that Andy was very inteliigent in his writing, what happened it very common, people become frustrated and then dwell on events and flip to extremes. What triggers this remains a mystery, however we know it to be a chemical imbalance, cause unknown.

Kill a lowly cop? WTF!
by Straight Zipper Merge
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 12:48 PM
Next time, kill us a fucking Senator, or Pentagon Chief of Staff, or even the President, for fuck sakes!

Useless fucking bastard.
Josh and Laura
by troy prouty*
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 12:52 PM
You lack intelligence in your writing style and it should not be posted here. Take language like that elsewhere!
Josh and Laura
by troy prouty*
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 12:52 PM
You lack intelligence in your writing style and it should not be posted here. Take language like that elsewhere!
Josh and Laura
by troy prouty*
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 12:52 PM
You lack intelligence in your writing style and it should not be posted here. Take language like that elsewhere!
Josh and Laura
by troy prouty*
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 12:52 PM
You lack intelligence in your writing style and it should not be posted here. Take language like that elsewhere!
Huh? Can you repeat that?
by Straight Zipper Merge
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 12:55 PM
I don't think I got it the first four times.

Retard.
glopus
by troy prouty
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 1:01 PM
Obvious to me glopus, that you have never heard the word - Improve.

Many people seek to make a better life of America and make sure that the family of the future have somthing better then now.

Capitalism has a whole, is a failure, because we changed the way it was intended.

The world and America can be a better place, and having the attitude agree with something or leave, makes one wonder who is the programmed one here? maybe you Glopus?

spoon fed like so many, what a shame and a waste of space - between your ears. spoon Fed is a sad way to go through life, wouldn't you agree?
glopus
by troy prouty
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 1:02 PM
Obvious to me glopus, that you have never heard the word - Improve.

Many people seek to make a better life of America and make sure that the family of the future have somthing better then now.

Capitalism has a whole, is a failure, because we changed the way it was intended.

The world and America can be a better place, and having the attitude agree with something or leave, makes one wonder who is the programmed one here? maybe you Glopus?

spoon fed like so many, what a shame and a waste of space - between your ears. spoon Fed is a sad way to go through life, wouldn't you agree?
Heckman
by troy prouty
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 1:20 PM
The only person responsible for andy's actions is andy himself, no one else.

I see you are also spoon fed !

To believe that people have control in others is foolish.

Can terrorism be stopped? of course not, it will always exists, because terrorism is usually the final utterence of voices unheard.

To simply attack people inside other countries and call this defeating terrorism is a false sense of security, because by destroying others, you are also creating future enemies.

Similar to putting metal detectors in school, is this solving the problem? or is this just covering up a bigger problem as a whole?
Heckman
by troy prouty
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 1:25 PM
The only person responsible for andy's actions is andy himself, no one else.

I see you are also spoon fed !

To believe that people have control in others is foolish.

Can terrorism be stopped? of course not, it will always exists, because terrorism is usually the final utterence of voices unheard.

To simply attack people inside other countries and call this defeating terrorism is a false sense of security, because by destroying others, you are also creating future enemies.

Similar to putting metal detectors in school, is this solving the problem? or is this just covering up a bigger problem as a whole?
Heckman
by troy prouty
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 1:25 PM
The only person responsible for andy's actions is andy himself, no one else.

I see you are also spoon fed !

To believe that people have control in others is foolish.

Can terrorism be stopped? of course not, it will always exists, because terrorism is usually the final utterence of voices unheard.

To simply attack people inside other countries and call this defeating terrorism is a false sense of security, because by destroying others, you are also creating future enemies.

Similar to putting metal detectors in school, is this solving the problem? or is this just covering up a bigger problem as a whole?
Heckman
by troy prouty
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 1:25 PM
The only person responsible for andy's actions is andy himself, no one else.

I see you are also spoon fed !

To believe that people have control in others is foolish.

Can terrorism be stopped? of course not, it will always exists, because terrorism is usually the final utterence of voices unheard.

To simply attack people inside other countries and call this defeating terrorism is a false sense of security, because by destroying others, you are also creating future enemies.

Similar to putting metal detectors in school, is this solving the problem? or is this just covering up a bigger problem as a whole?
TO THE PERSON REFFERING TO DAVE AS A CHILD MOLESTOR
by JOHN
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 1:27 PM
IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN NORMAL FOR YOU IN YOUR CHILDHOOD TO GIVE YOUR DADDY HEAD. AND FATHERING A CHILD WITH YOUR MOTHER, BUT ANY ATTEMPT TO DISCREDIT THE GOODNESS OF DAVE WILL FAIL. ALSO I CAN ALMOST AGREE SOME COPS DONT DO A GOOD JOB. WHY IS ANDY STILL BREATHING. YOU ANTI GOVERNMENT IDIOTS SHOULD KNOW THAT IN CALIFORNIA ANDY WILL LIVE ATLEAST ANOTHER 30 TO 40 YEARS ONCE HE IS CONVICTED IN A COURT OF LAW COSTING CALIFORNIANS MILLIONS OF DOLLARS SO HE CAN HAVE HIS THREE HOT MEALS, HIS CABLE TELEVISION, AND ALL THE OTHER RIGHTS THAT INMATES HAVE. IT IS UNBELIEVABLE THAT THIS GUY WILL GET MORE PRIVELAGES THAN A PERSON MAKING A LIVING WHO CANT AFFORD CABLE. THAT IS THE INJUSTICE. OH YEA DONT FORGET WE PROVIDE THEM FREE MEDICAL CARE INCLUDING DENTAL, THEY CAN EVEN GET BRACES IF THEY WANT.
TO THE PERSON REFFERING TO DAVE AS A CHILD MOLESTOR
by JOHN
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 1:27 PM
IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN NORMAL FOR YOU IN YOUR CHILDHOOD TO GIVE YOUR DADDY HEAD. AND FATHERING A CHILD WITH YOUR MOTHER, BUT ANY ATTEMPT TO DISCREDIT THE GOODNESS OF DAVE WILL FAIL. ALSO I CAN ALMOST AGREE SOME COPS DONT DO A GOOD JOB. WHY IS ANDY STILL BREATHING. YOU ANTI GOVERNMENT IDIOTS SHOULD KNOW THAT IN CALIFORNIA ANDY WILL LIVE ATLEAST ANOTHER 30 TO 40 YEARS ONCE HE IS CONVICTED IN A COURT OF LAW COSTING CALIFORNIANS MILLIONS OF DOLLARS SO HE CAN HAVE HIS THREE HOT MEALS, HIS CABLE TELEVISION, AND ALL THE OTHER RIGHTS THAT INMATES HAVE. IT IS UNBELIEVABLE THAT THIS GUY WILL GET MORE PRIVELAGES THAN A PERSON MAKING A LIVING WHO CANT AFFORD CABLE. THAT IS THE INJUSTICE. OH YEA DONT FORGET WE PROVIDE THEM FREE MEDICAL CARE INCLUDING DENTAL, THEY CAN EVEN GET BRACES IF THEY WANT.
REBEL
by NAT FORREST
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 1:38 PM
Send ole andy on down to Mississippi.We know how to handle cop killers.We would be tickled to let the officer's wife kick the bucket out from under the worthless piece of crap while his neck is tied to a limb of one of our sturdy oaks.
Anti Daryle
by Brotherhood
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 1:38 PM
One word to describe Daryle, Moron!!!!!

dodie
by troy prouty
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 1:44 PM
Just to let you know - Your also a spineless little twit, you when faced with something, - runs in fear. Most americans are. That is why , they are taught to never question authority, this is also why it is so easy for capitalism to take advantage of it, and also the reason those who are spineless, think that voting represents freedom.
PISSED OFF
by WHY?
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 1:48 PM
How can you say Dave was a child molester, what evidence do you have? Is it your anger or lack of intelligence? Did you know Dave or are you just a complete idiot? Dave didn't deserve to die by some coward that shot him in the back, and then walk up to him and shoot him in the head! What about his son, Luke, who will never know his dad. Never be able to say "I love you dad" he never got a chance to, because of some cowardly act.
" edit the link that's screwing up the text wrapping "
by one of the editors
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 1:56 PM
OK, I just did that. In the future, don't post links longer than the screen is wide.

Instead, use : http://makeashorterlink.com/index.php
olympia Cop
by Troy Prouty*
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 1:58 PM
One that helps in the protection of the governor - no less?

A State government who - Is not obeying the law set by the State, and over turning initiatives for no real reason, because they do not like them.

A sorry state of affairs to say the least. Intiative 776 - Ignored.

I-51 - ignored by three counties and adding gas tax.

I-53 being taken to court

Monarail - King County trying to have it thrown out.

It is no wonder, so many people are dismayed and do crazy unthinkable things.

At some point - when, I do not know, the police must ask itself, are they protecting the people, or are they protecting the dictatorship that is now ruling, only americans are to stupid to see it.

but the future is clear, Capitalism is taking its hold, has seen in the recession and america will no longer be able to ignore the warning signs, Jobs are leaving and not being replaced so that few within the States can become more wealthy.

This gives those with money, political power and that power needs to laws that only protects them and destroys society as a whole. Eventually this will lead to a rebellion, in which the police will have to decide, where do they stand?

Once chosen the consequences will take hold, people will unite and a new government will be put into place to replace the government that was considered greedy.

I ask you this - What side will you be on?
violence is a shame, and it is something that should be avoided, but when there are no alternatives, and people are dying at the hands of their own government, because it is controlled by the wealthy, and it either time to fight or die, which path will you follow, those of communist russia police, or china - The future of the United States, or those of the people.

Make no mistake, this future awaits, unless changes are made. If anything Andy is an example of things to come, but not yet needed.

Dc
by troy prouty*
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 2:02 PM
Talk about being spoon fed.

"we need the wealthy",
yeah right,

"no" Dc, the weealthy needs us, without the people, they would not be wealthy.

I tell you what - I am in a good mood today - There is some books - written by a man named David Korten - Go get them and read them. Get an education inside someone who taught at Harvard.
Rob
by Troy Prouty
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 2:06 PM
vote - makes a difference - Who directs the choices rob? companies by monies given to those running.

voting does not represent freedom.

To be honest - until you get rid of corporate monies and parties, there is not a lot a person can do.

If you think running will do it, you would only be kidding yourself, you see how the system is set up rob, they will make it so you lose and can't get in the door.

Taking money from companies should be a conflict of interest.
Bubba
by troy prouty
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 2:09 PM
with your brains - You should be careful, you might hurt yourself with a rope, or for that matter - anything you can touch.

can you say the following Bubba:

Repeat 3 times faster and faster:

I am so
far king
we todd it !
To pissed off
by Todd
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 2:12 PM
From the cops that want to harass you;

"It is not easy. In California we average one cop for every 2000 people.
About 60% of those cops are on patrol, where we do most of the harassing.
One-fifth of that 60% are on duty at any moment and available for harassing
people. So, one cop is responsible for harassing about 10,000 residents. When
you toss in the commercial, business, and tourist locations that attract
people from other areas, sometimes you have a situation where a single cop is
responsible for harassing 20,000 or more people a day. A ten-hour shift runs
36,000 seconds. This gives a cop one second to harass a person, and
three-fourths of a second to eat a donut AND then find a new person to
harass. This is not an easy task. Most cops are not up to it day in and day
out. It is just too tiring. What we do is utilize some tools to help us
narrow down those, which we harass. They are as follows:

PHONE: People will call us up and point out things that cause us to focus
on a person for special harassment. "My neighbor is beating his wife" is a
code phrase we use. Then we come out and give special harassment. Another
popular one on a weeknight is, "The kids next door are having a party."

CARS: We have special cops assigned to harass people who drive. They like
to harass the drivers of fast cars, cars blasting music, cars with expired
registration stickers and the like. It is lots of fun when you pick them out
of traffic for nothing more obvious than running a red light. Sometimes you
get to really heap the harassment on when you find they have drugs in the
car, are drunk, or have a warrant.

RUNNERS: Some people take off running just at the sight of a police
officer. Nothing is quite as satisfying as running after them like a beagle
on the scent of a bunny. When you catch them you can harass them for hours.

CODES: When you can think of nothing else to do, there are books that give
ideas for reasons to harass folks. They are called "Codes"; Penal, Vehicle,
Health and Safety, Business and Professions... They all spell out all sorts
of things for which you can really mess with people. After you read the code,
you can just drive around for a while until you find someone violating one of
these listed offenses and harass them. Just last week I saw a guy smash a car
window. Well, the code says that is not allowed. That meant I got permission
to harass this guy.

It is a pretty cool system that we have set up, and it works pretty well.

I seem to have a never-ending supply of folks to harass. And we get away
with it. Why? Because the good citizens who pay the tab like that we keep the
streets safe for them.

Next time you are in my town, give me a single finger wave. That is a
signal that you wish for me to take a little closer look at you, and maybe
I'll find a reason to harass YOU.

Looking forward to meeting you."
FUCKBUSH
by Siobhan
( PoorExcuse1 [at] netscape.net ) Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 2:20 PM
Excuse the lack of spaces i broke the keyboard and can't afford a new one...

But I Am An Anarchist...And iAgree wiht every word you say... killing the cop... You Had Your Reasons i see... maybe something else would have grabbed attention also... but anyways...

I hate the way the world is... And i know i dont want war becuase i in no way want to help the american government the way it is but i do get angry and violent towards..thiss world and it' lack or action we need to something but i ass the youth of america am told that i just want to revolt adn it will pass.....well fuck you.....

yes...i want a culture revolution...I just hate not having any say in how my very own life i run.....i hate control... schools are now prisons... where they screw with your mind and brainwash you... The very pledge that i refuse to say every day has oppression bleeding from it...

i get yelled at... called a..terrorist... and i got 1 day In school suspension insteadof 5 days out... because i wrote on my desk i wrote things like:NoOneIsFreeWhileOthersAreOpressed...... YouDon'tHaveToBeARascistToBeANaziFuck,YourMindlessssNationalismGivesYouCruedentials Enough.........(theFirstAmendment)DOES NOT EXIST..................FuckBush.....America:LandofTheEnslaved... HomeOfTheBrainwashed.....i drew:TheNaziSymbolCrossedOut......GodBlessTheFascists...

That general kind of thing adn they wouldn't let me waah it because the police are getting involved and that get me a recommendation for expulsion.....WHAT THE FUCK!!!!!!????I Thought there was freedom of speech... I guess there really is no 1st amendment... i was right after all... though i wish i weren't

I Have A Certain hate-with-a-passion... for the american public because of their mindlesssness and unwillingness to listen to anyone but those who speak or the GREAT AMERICA INVINCIBLE!!!!

This brings about many emotions that i dont know what to do with so i get pissed off and i'm in the minority so i can't do anything... I dont hate americans.....i'm not rascist... i just hate the gov't... capitalists... fascists(Bush).....oppressors.....dictators.....in this Social Democracy.....poor excuse..for one might i add

The brainwashed need to be helped but how?we need to unite stand together make a change i know all this yes......but.....HOW?.....i dont know but we need to do it unite some sort of "party" ifwe get together they can't stop us they NEED us to get the money by themselves wihtout us they are alone... they are nothing...we should revolt we need a revolution not an apthetic view

america is destroying it's youth we are getting restlesss......In an oppressed nation where they give us lies and feed us a false sense of freedom.....rebellion... comes like FIRE.....

The way the youth is raised..is how they live when they are adults (the gov't wont forget that thats why we have school to be a ssocial screw)

america got what was coming on september 11th...not to say the innocent civilians deserved to die..but we only cared about terrorism when we got it back.....if the hoe wa on the other foot we would have bombed them too..except with more force destroying them... wiht no trace left...no one left to tell...or to rebell......

i leave you with this... while anarchy could work and is the only way i ssee for the people to unite and to run their own country without oppression and to many imposing rules...we need to revolt and revolt now or we too..will be brainwashed.........or washed out by some capitalist pig
Almost laughable
by DrOcnor
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 2:26 PM
Even if he did kill a cop, and let's face it it wouldn't be unknown for someone to admit to a crime they had not committed just to get attention, what he did pales into insignificance compared to what half the respondents on this board are saying.

All this talk of revenge, angry mobs, letting "Bubba and the good ole boys" take care of him? You're all as bad as any terrorist. Before any conviction has taken place, he has already received threats of shooting, stabbing, electrocution, lethal injection, and a few others that don't bear thinking about.

If you carried these threats out, that would be murder, just as if you went out and, say, shot a cop at a gasstation. Jack Ruby, who shot Lee Harvey Oswald, was arrested for murder.

Nothing to me is as sickening as the average American's attitude when something like this happens: ill-educated, mob response with no thought or reason present. If Hitler had grown up and got started in California, he would have had a field day.

If this Andy guy shot a cop, he deserves to receive the punishment due for murder under California State Law. If he didn't he has just revealed how many insane and small-minded people there are living in the CA area.

I LIVE IN RED BLUFF
by Junior in HighSchool
( HeAtHeR02004 [at] hotmail.com ) Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 2:37 PM
Pay attention
I live in Red Bluff McCrae killed a 31 year old husband and father of a 14 month old and his wife is expecting. David Mobilio was a DARE officer and a good person. This Jackass know's nothing and his view's are wrong and to all the fuckers who think what he did was right and just i hope u get a rude wake up call in jail. I hope u see your friend McCrae being fryed in the electric chair or better yet bring him to Red Bluff so the people can get at him.
FUCKTHEPIGS
by Siobhan
( PoorExcuse1 [at] netscape.net ) Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 2:42 PM
FUCK... THE... PIGS

i agree i see them run red lights get through traaffic with their sirens on then turn them off stop (when they actually stop)at a red light they are ON the pedestrian cross walk.....they beat an old man...a bystander at a peace rally..almost to death for no readon he got nothing in return for his damage another man squirt an officer with a water pistol and got beat up he got a sum of money for it but it shouldn't eve have happened and the police never beleive a word you tell them fuckin'pigs...i wont shoot them but i dont care if they are shot or killed

while all cop may not be like that i have never met one who isn't so fuck you cops...pigs... an untidy group of little fascists if you ask me

FUCK.....THEM

DAMN......PIGS

FUCK......POLICE.....BRUTALITY
hey junior
by Troy Prouty*
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 3:02 PM
Grow up, before mom, has to spank you !
GOD WILL PUNISH YOU ALL!
by Him
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 3:16 PM
GET ON YOUR KNEES AND PRAY TO ME NOW YOU IGNORANT SHEEP!

GET ON YOUR KNEES AND PRAY TO ME NOW YOU IGNORANT SHEEP!

GET ON YOUR KNEES AND PRAY TO ME NOW YOU IGNORANT SHEEP!

GET ON YOUR KNEES AND PRAY TO ME NOW YOU IGNORANT SHEEP!

GET ON YOUR KNEES AND PRAY TO ME NOW YOU IGNORANT SHEEP!

GET ON YOUR KNEES AND PRAY TO ME NOW YOU IGNORANT SHEEP!

GET ON YOUR KNEES AND PRAY TO ME NOW YOU IGNORANT SHEEP!

GET ON YOUR KNEES AND PRAY TO ME NOW YOU IGNORANT SHEEP!

GET ON YOUR KNEES AND PRAY TO ME NOW YOU IGNORANT SHEEP!

GET ON YOUR KNEES AND PRAY TO ME NOW YOU IGNORANT SHEEP!

GET ON YOUR KNEES AND PRAY TO ME NOW YOU IGNORANT SHEEP!

GET ON YOUR KNEES AND PRAY TO ME NOW YOU IGNORANT SHEEP!

GET ON YOUR KNEES AND PRAY TO ME NOW YOU IGNORANT SHEEP!

GET ON YOUR KNEES AND PRAY TO ME NOW YOU IGNORANT SHEEP!


siobhan
by Troy Prouty*
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 3:19 PM
repeat - Siobhan is an idiot.

To lump all police together is poor judgement on your part. There are many people out there that are very good police officers and great and wonderful people.

Your anger needs to be calmed by the peace and logic.

Your no more right then those that call for the death of a person who killed someone. One murder does not justify another, just because a court says it justifies, really does not mean it really does.

Your opinions are biased and unfair for, and speak only with closed eyes.
him
by troy prouty*
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 3:27 PM
You want to get on your knee's and do what to a sheep!!! ?

You one sick puppy, that is animal cruelty, but if that is the best you can do for a date, I guess that is all you can do..

I think it is a little sick though, maybe Bush will join you. He seems the sick puppy type !
Interesting phenomenon
by Jim
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 3:46 PM
No one has remarked on the statement by the assassin that he is a highly trained killer by the American army. This guy seems quite smart (in a Hanibal Lecter kind of way) so its entirly posible that this story will have some twists to come.

I don't think that his actions herald a Narodnik uprising but when a political system fails to give even an illusion of control to its subjects then political assassination will become more common.

In my oppinion helping the striking fire fighters (Britain) who are in a battle for a decent wage without 'efficiency' savings that will compromise safty is more use than Andy's actions. The anti union government tries to force soldiers to engage in civil war while also asking them to fight a war for oil on behalf of America's gas guzzling industrialists.
You must be joking
by BMurray
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 3:58 PM
To whoever suggested that this will kill the anti-corporation movement in America: you must be joking. This happened in RED BLUFF folks. It didn't so much as make CNN's home page in small print, and look at the kind of useless crap that DOES make it. No one outside of a tiny group of people will ever hear of it. It will make no difference one way or another to any movement anywhere.

I'm certain that for the people involved it is a huge event, touching everyone they know in many ways. But for most of the world it does not warrant mention, let alone comment. No "movements" will be derailed. Or sped along their way.
dor
by rewerb
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 4:06 PM
Davis To Extradite Alleged Cop Killer
Wednesday, Nov. 27, 2002
Governor Davis says he will work with New Hampshire authorities to extradite 23-year-old Andrew McCrae to stand trial for allegedly murdering Red Bluff police officer David Mobilio. McCrae was arrested yesterday at a Concord, New Hampshire hotel as Red Bluff held a memorial service for Mobilio.






Accused Cop Killer Does Not Enter Plea
Wednesday, Nov. 27, 2002
A 23-year-old man suspected of killing a Red Bluff police officer entered no plea at a court appearance in New Hamshire.

Andrew Hampton McCrae was ordered held without bail pending a preliminary hearing December 26th. McCrae was arrested Tuesday morning at a hotel in New Hampshire.

He told a newspaper reporter shortly before his surrender that he killed police officer David Mobilio last week to draw attention to police brutality.

A man identifying himself as McCrae also confessed in two letters posted on the Internet.

About five-thousand people attended Mobilio´s memorial service Tuesday in Red Bluff. He´s the first Red Bluff officer ever killed in the line of duty.



dor
by rewer
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 4:06 PM
Davis To Extradite Alleged Cop Killer
Wednesday, Nov. 27, 2002
Governor Davis says he will work with New Hampshire authorities to extradite 23-year-old Andrew McCrae to stand trial for allegedly murdering Red Bluff police officer David Mobilio. McCrae was arrested yesterday at a Concord, New Hampshire hotel as Red Bluff held a memorial service for Mobilio.






Accused Cop Killer Does Not Enter Plea
Wednesday, Nov. 27, 2002
A 23-year-old man suspected of killing a Red Bluff police officer entered no plea at a court appearance in New Hamshire.

Andrew Hampton McCrae was ordered held without bail pending a preliminary hearing December 26th. McCrae was arrested Tuesday morning at a hotel in New Hampshire.

He told a newspaper reporter shortly before his surrender that he killed police officer David Mobilio last week to draw attention to police brutality.

A man identifying himself as McCrae also confessed in two letters posted on the Internet.

About five-thousand people attended Mobilio´s memorial service Tuesday in Red Bluff. He´s the first Red Bluff officer ever killed in the line of duty.



Psycho
by Bryan
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 4:14 PM
This Andy freak lives (lived) in my apartment building in Olympia, WA. This really hits home. Karma hates Andy. He'll get his.
http://www.theolympian.com/home/news/20021127/frontpage/15892.shtml
SB
by a cop
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 4:18 PM
My prayers go out to Officer Dave's son, wife, family and friends. I am too, a cop. I am also a mom of two kids. I work so that I can provide for my family. I am not a cop so that I can violate peoples civil rights or opress them. I live in this country like the rest of you do because I love it. I am just like you...i eat, breathe, sleep like you. I have my own ideas and thoughts. I disagree with people, but I dont do illegal things to make my point.

The difference between "us" and "Andy followers" is that you think you can tread on "us" and force us into your thinking. Who is right and who is wrong?

One thing I know is that Officer Dave did nothing wrong. He was shot in the back of the head by a cowardly **cked up pissant who should not be allowed to take another breath. Oh yeah, he isnt guilty yet right? Andy is guilty of doing the same thing he condemns. He forced his opinion and thinking on someone who knew nothing of his cause. If Officer Dave would most likely have protected Andy's right to protest if Andy would of done things legally. Instead Andy shot and killed a man, father, son, friend, co-worker. Guess what Andy, your name will be forgotten but Officer Andy's will be rememberd.
Bubba sucks
by K.O.
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 4:31 PM
Bubba is a hayseed. He and his "good-ole-boys" like to have sex with their livestock. When Bubba was a kid, he got kicked in the head by a mule. Things are a bit confusing for Bubba now since he's become the village idiot. At night, Bubba likes to dress up like a woman and tap into his femanine side. By day, Bubba goes down to the river and sits on the bridge playing his banjo and the theme song to Deliverance.
Parents: We love our son, disavow his alleged crime
by David Tirrell-Wysocki
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 4:32 PM
Associated Press Writer
November 27, 2002


CONCORD, N.H.- The mother of a fugitive suspected of killing a California police officer in a crusade against police brutality disavowed his alleged actions Wednesday.

"We love our son but we absolutely denounce his alleged actions," she said in a brief telephone interview from Ohio, her voice breaking. "Our hearts are breaking for the family and friends of Officer Mobilio."

Karen Mickel of Springfield, Ohio, said her son Andrew Mickel had apparently been using the name Andrew McCrae.

Andrew McCrae, 23, was arrested in Concord on Tuesday and charged with killing officer David Mobilio in Red Bluff, Calif., on Nov. 19.

McCrae surrendered after negotiating with FBI agents for several hours at the Concord hotel where he had been staying.

In Ohio, McCrae's father, Stan Mickel, said news reports that his son was a drifter were not true. He said his son was a student at Evergreen State College in Olympia, Wash., and had attended Springfield North High School. Mickel said his son visited the family in March and there was no indication that anything was wrong....
Many hints, but little certain about suspect's local links
by The Olympian
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 4:35 PM
...Thurston County Superior Court records show no criminal history in the county for anyone with the name of Andrew McCrae or Andrew Mickel. Olympia police also have no record of contact with McCrae, Machlan said.

However, the King County Jail said an Andrew Hampton Mickel of Olympia was booked April 20 for obstructing a public official. Mickel was released by the court April 21.

The Seattle Police Department was the arresting agency.

At Evergreen, college spokeswoman Kate Lykins Brown declined to confirm McCrae was a student, citing federal student privacy laws.

"Under the Family Education Rights and Privacy Act, I can't confirm or deny that he was a student here," she said. "The law says that if a student indicates that he or she wants that information to be confidential, then we're precluded from disclosing it."

Asked if Andrew Mickel made that request, Lykins Brown responded, "You can draw your own conclusions."

Campus police referred questions about McCrae to Brown.

Few students were on campus Tuesday, with many gone for the Thanksgiving break.

Students contacted by an Olympian reporter Tuesday said they didn't know Andrew McCrae or Andrew Mickel.
Mr.
by John Doe
( John [at] doe.com ) Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 4:54 PM
Mr. Cop-Murdering ASSHOLE said:

"Mister Bush,

"The Presidential election process in our country has been taken away from the American people. Through the combined existence of the electoral college and the campaign funding process, it is guaranteed that any candidate actually willing to care for the good of the people will never get elected. Beyond this, even within the confines of this system, you were never actually elected with a popular vote from the American people.

"Please set in place a democratic, beneficial election system and step down from the Presidency. Al Gore, who was popularly elected through this flawed system, shall serve as the temporary President until a True Representative of the People is determined."

REALITY CHECK

Murdering someone because you don't like the electoral college and its protections is psycho.

America is not a "democracy"; it is a Constitutional Republic. The electoral college was put in place as a protection against having concentrated population centers filled with scumbaggy murdering losers like you take over the nation and install your anti-American bullshit.

Personally, I'd like one hour alone with you in your cell, boy -- you would BEG for death. I hope your new cellmate is muscular and makes you squeal like a prison bitch until the very day they fry your Marxist ass.

They ought to put this piece of shit's execution on pay-per-view -- we could raise millions of dollars for the Mobilio family and initiate a fund to cover the families of other officers who are senselessly killed by equally vile subhuman trash.

Hey Andy: FUCK YOU. DICKHEAD!!!!!!! YOU ARE A SHINING EXAMPLE OF WHY REAL LIBERTY ACTIVISTS AVOID YOUR PATHETIC "PHILOSOPHIES" WITH VEHEMENCE.
mr
by peter clarkson
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 5:04 PM
Obviously there is more than one alternative to corporate markets than communism. And could you explain what a 'REAL' job is, as distinct from attempting to effect social change? Your posting descended into a derisive tone it did little to justify.
mr
by Peter Clarkson
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 5:16 PM
It is appalling that so many postings have appeared airing the most infantile curses, 'blow you to hell', 'burn', 'fry' - some even invoking 'God', and all this supposedly in outrage at the killing of a person.

Such rancourous crowing ill-befits those who wish to preserve life, and I regret to note the timeworn contradiction in legally killing murderers.

Mercifully there are some people posting on this site who have considered how it would be if they had to live according to their words.
any additional evidence?
by jenny
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 5:16 PM
aside from the alleged broadcasted confession, has the cops announced the discovery of any additional evidence (i.e. gun) or other corroboration linking McCrae to the shooting? anyone one can make a confession but it doesn't necessarily mean it's true. allot of people make false confessions either because cops coerced it out of them or the person making the confession wants to draw attention to him or her self. i don't think what McCrae published in IMC should be considered the smoking gun until new evidence is brought forward. there's nothing in his publication that specifically identifies "what the killer would know about the crime" other than a general admission of "I shot the cop." important questions to the cops who are monitoring this website independent of McCrae's confession--can you place him at the crime scene? has he told you what he did with the gun? have you found the gun? was ballistic residue found on his person, clothing or belongings? does his car or home contain any physical evidence linking him to the shooting? any accomplices or accessories? another consideration, maybe the IMC posting was a smokescreen to deflect attention away from the real killer(s)? i think their are allot of unanswered questions here, and as for all you Red Bluff rednecks and cop sympathizers, lets not rush to judgment here until all facts are in. if McCrae really did it he'll pay and all IMC will be guilty of is helping the cops catch a cop killer. if this turns out to be the case, then they should thank IMC for expediting the apprehension process.

jerkoff
by gacop
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 5:16 PM
You're a goddamn idiot, who deserves a bullet in his head. To bad it didn't go down that way.
A lobbyist
by Mikell Robinson
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 5:17 PM
It is the job of politicians to keep their jobs. No matter how much money a legislator gets from "corporate America," he cannot stay in office if no one votes for him. The solution is to smarten up and stop voting for the candidate with the most ads or celebrity endorsements and vote the bastards out.
Oh, and abolish the IRS.
FuckPoliceBrutality
by Siobhan
( PoorExcuse1 [at] netscape.net ) Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 5:25 PM
Fuck Police Brutality

Some ask where we would be without police... I believe innocent people would not be killed for no reason and then have the cops blame THEM for it.....

I believe in anarchy No rules No Government No Masters of anykind... Contrary to popular belief Anarchy is not chaos and is not the worst form of government... Anarchy can work if we don't have stupid fascists bossing us around... We could just do what we want... and to keep some sense of order...There might need to be one rule:You may not fatally injure or kill another life form

Even if we were to assume just for arguments sake that anarchy is chaos... Can you honestly tell me that its worse than this?Or that this is not chaos?

Fuck the cops man they have done nothing for me... There are too many political prisoners... and you call this the land of the free...home of the fucking brave......well...think about it alittle harder... its the land of the enslaved.....open your eyes.....america is nowhere near invincable and its not the greatest nation ever seen... and nothing like its founding fathers wanted it to be......Above everything else in the world man kinda wants power and it corrupts him therefore leading to shit like this... america the very symbol of hypocracy.....this is no democracy......if you must name it...it is a social democracy... of capitalists and communists.....filled with corporate fucks whol have more say in our lives that the civilians who live them i for one wont be control by some nazi fuck... stand up... fight back!!!!!........if we dont.....who will??

So all in all i hope you try to see that this nation is going nowhere but down if it continues to oppress other nations of this world.....And the cops make it no better... not to say you should kill them...but you should fight back because no one gives two shits when an innocent man was almost killed by a cop for no fucking reason the cops can do no wrong but when the shoe is on the other foot... hell brakes..loose.....Americas laws protect those who least need them...

How can you feel safe with these guys running our nations and with the cops everywhere...And when i need help i will not run to the cops...because i'm probably trying to run from the cops...untidy group of little fascists.....i wont be controlled and toyed with... who will i run to you might ask?... My fellow punks...and i'll kick the shit out of the fucking pigs whos after me

learn from this.....cops know the risk... but do you?
FuckPoliceBrutality
by Siobhan
( PoorExcuse1 [at] netscape.net ) Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 5:28 PM
Fuck Police Brutality

Some ask where we would be without police... I believe innocent people would not be killed for no reason and then have the cops blame THEM for it.....

I believe in anarchy No rules No Government No Masters of anykind... Contrary to popular belief Anarchy is not chaos and is not the worst form of government... Anarchy can work if we don't have stupid fascists bossing us around... We could just do what we want... and to keep some sense of order...There might need to be one rule:You may not fatally injure or kill another life form

Even if we were to assume just for arguments sake that anarchy is chaos... Can you honestly tell me that its worse than this?Or that this is not chaos?

Fuck the cops man they have done nothing for me... There are too many political prisoners... and you call this the land of the free...home of the fucking brave......well...think about it alittle harder... its the land of the enslaved.....open your eyes.....america is nowhere near invincable and its not the greatest nation ever seen... and nothing like its founding fathers wanted it to be......Above everything else in the world man kinda wants power and it corrupts him therefore leading to shit like this... america the very symbol of hypocracy.....this is no democracy......if you must name it...it is a social democracy... of capitalists and communists.....filled with corporate fucks whol have more say in our lives that the civilians who live them i for one wont be control by some nazi fuck... stand up... fight back!!!!!........if we dont.....who will??

So all in all i hope you try to see that this nation is going nowhere but down if it continues to oppress other nations of this world.....And the cops make it no better... not to say you should kill them...but you should fight back because no one gives two shits when an innocent man was almost killed by a cop for no fucking reason the cops can do no wrong but when the shoe is on the other foot... hell brakes..loose.....Americas laws protect those who least need them...

How can you feel safe with these guys running our nations and with the cops everywhere...And when i need help i will not run to the cops...because i'm probably trying to run from the cops...untidy group of little fascists.....i wont be controlled and toyed with... who will i run to you might ask?... My fellow punks...and i'll kick the shit out of the fucking pigs whos after me

learn from this.....cops know the risk... but do you?
MR
by Greenaway
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 5:32 PM
Andrew McCrea has set forth a very valid argument in his post. As to why he murdered, I suppose he might say

"Why him? Why anyone? Countless thousands of innocents are being murdered world over for far more insiduous reasons"

Yeah, true, but, that doesn't make his actions acceptable. In no way do I condone what he has done. That would be flawed logic It isn't right to murder like that. Only in self defence or for righteous vengence should foul murder be committed. While Mr McCrea's sentiments are worthy his actions are not.

He hasn't explained why he chose an "innocent" police officer. There can be "innocent" police officers, regardless of their choice of profession. As innocent as the children dying in Iraq or Mozambique or India (insert country of choice)

Hopefully we can change the global situation, throughout history civilisations have fallen without warning, unexpectedly. I do not believe we can really change anything. We are so many and they are so few, but they are strong. Stronger than we can ever be. I hope I'm wrong, but I doubt it.

The depths of the terrible behaviour that is committed by us against us in the pursuit of $$ knows no bounds. That the wool is tightly pulled over most of our eyes is evident everywhere you look. Not least in the ignorance of most of the replies along the lines of "...Don't you know we all carry guns in Bluff County.?." "I.... can't wait to get my hands on you if you ever come here..."

Step back, read the original post again. Ignore the murder and analyse the message. A very eloquent post. To those who disagree, do you have a spare 4 hours and a clue?? Read well, understand and see how your precious America behaves.

What a waste
re: jerkoff aka gacop
by jenny
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 5:33 PM
did you know that in the state of California the transmission of a death threat can be classified as a "Terrorist Threat" punishable by a fine and/or imprisonment? maybe you'd like to identify yourself and where you live so I can inform the proper authorities. if you're a cop, maybe you'd like to tell me where you work so I can file a personnel complaint with IA.
Fuck Police Brutality
by Siobhan
( PoorExcuse1 [at] netscape.net ) Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 5:35 PM
Fuck Police Brutality

Some ask where we would be without police... I believe innocent people would not be killed for no reason and then have the cops blame THEM for it...

I believe in anarchy No rules No Government No Masters of anykind... Contrary to popular belief Anarchy is not chaos and is not the worst form of government...

Anarchy can work if we don't have stupid fascists bossing us around... We could just do what we want... and to keep some sense of order...There might need to be one rule:You may not fatally injure or kill another life form

Even if we were to assume just for arguments sake that anarchy is chaos... Can you honestly tell me that its worse than this?Or that this is not chaos?

Fuck the cops man they have done nothing for me... There are too many political prisoners... and you call this the land of the free...home of the fucking brave...well...think about it alittle harder... its the land of the enslaved... open your eyes... america is nowhere near invincable and its not the greatest nation ever seen... and nothing like its founding fathers wanted it to be...

Above everything else in the world man kinda wants power and it corrupts him therefore leading to shit like this... america the very symbol of hypocracy... this is no democracy...if you must name it...it is a social democracy... of capitalists and communists... filled with corporate fucks whol have more say in our lives that the civilians who live them i for one wont be control by some nazi fuck... stand up... fight back!!!!!..... if we dont... who will??

So all in all i hope you try to see that this nation is going nowhere but down if it continues to oppress other nations of this world... And the cops make it no better... not to say you should kill them...but you should fight back because no one gives two shits when an innocent man was almost killed by a cop for no fucking reason the cops can do no wrong but when the shoe is on the other foot... hell brakes loose... Americas laws protect those who least need them...

How can you feel safe with these guys running our nations and with the cops everywhere...And when i need help i will not run to the cops...because i'm probably trying to run from the cops...untidy group of little fascists... i wont be controlled and toyed with... who will i run to you might ask?... My fellow punks...and i'll kick the shit out of the fucking pigs whos after me

learn from this... cops know the risk... but do you?
Long Live Microsoft!
by Fat American Consumer
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 5:40 PM
You liberal "activist extremists" never cease to amaze me.
You sit here bitching about "evil corporate America" while posting
your rants on equipment and technology that corporate America
gave you. All while using your AOL/Time Warner or MSN
internet connection? Ha ha! Why don't you write your ideas
on home made papyrus if you hate corporate America so much?

And what the hell does a protest about a police state / police brutality
and "evil corporate America" have to do with the killing of a police
officer in Red Bluff? Andy is clearly dillusional. For any of you
who don't know, Red Bluff is a small rural "hick" town in Northern
California. Oh yeah! Red Bluff SURE IS a major player in the
corporate America world! And a tightly locked down police
state city at that! All the poor innocent citizens of Red Bluff are
constantly being harrassed and brutalized by the huge army of
the 23 member Red Bluff Police Force. Give me a break!
They probably only have 2 officers on duty at any one time. And I'm pretty sure they are not home to any Fortune 500
companies. This is just cold blooded murder in the name of
Protest? And some of you stupid idiots support this. Sad!

You people need to get a reality check.

re: jerkoff aka gacop
by jenny
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 6:09 PM
hey jerkoff, FYI, here's the exact law, familiarize yourself with it because the webcops might be knocking on your door next:

CALIFORNIA PENAL CODE SEC. 422: Any person who willfully threatens to commit a crime which will result in death or great bodily injury to another person, with the specific intent that the statement, made verbally, in writing, or by means of an electronic communication device, is to be taken as a threat, even if there is no intent of actually carrying it out, which, on its face and under the circumstances in which it is made, is so unequivocal, unconditional, immediate, and specific as to convey to the person threatened, a gravity of purpose and an immediate prospect of execution of the threat, and thereby causes that person reasonably to be in sustained fear for his or her own safety or for his or her immediate family's safety, shall be punished by imprisonment in the county jail not to exceed one year, or by imprisonment in the state prison. "Electronic communication device" includes, but is not limited to, telephones, cellular telephones, computers, video recorders, fax machines, or pagers. "Electronic communication" has the same meaning as the term defined in Subsection 12 of Section 2510 of Title 18 of the United States Code.
Jenny
by Think about it
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 6:15 PM
"...under the circumstances in which it is made, is so unequivocal, unconditional, immediate,
and specific as to convey to the person threatened, a gravity of purpose and an
immediate prospect of execution of the threat, and thereby causes that person
reasonably to be in sustained fear for his or her own safety or for his or her immediate
family's safety, ..."

An anonymous posting by and anonymous person to an anonymous person hardly
qualifies as an "...immediate prospect of execution of the threat, and thereby causes that person
reasonably to be in sustained fear for his or her own safety or for his or her immediate
family's safety..."
re:Think about it
by jenny
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 6:50 PM
this element of the law is satisfied as long as I believe in the threat even if it comes from an anonymous source. what about phone calls? someone calls in an anonymous death threat, are you telling me this dosen't constitute a crime?
Re: jenny
by me
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 7:00 PM
Since you seem to have the Penal Code in front of you look up 653m.....not 422
what up with the numerology
by ut oh reefer madness
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 7:58 PM
The article in the Olympian mentions 420 twice, once in the supposed address of the corporation,


"Those papers listed an Olympia address of 420 Sherman St. S.W., apartment 123, which is at the Capitol House apartments"

The idea that this is a fake address seems highly likely. Apt. 123? How about apt. 456? Probably chosen because it's the Capitol House Apartments, for the meanings of Capitol. White house etc. Not to mention it used to be Peter Hospital. And Peter Pan was at PLAY here. Evidently to heal us all.

The second mention is:

"the King County Jail said an Andrew Hampton Mickel of Olympia was booked April 20 for obstructing a public official. Mickel was released by the court April 21. "

April 20, 4/20, 420, get it?

Hmm, I wonder if our perpetrator is some kind of genius at manufacturing conspiracies. Ut oh spaghettio, could it be that this is all a manufacture of the Illuminati, like 9/11 was?

Maybe it's time for reefer madness take II. III? IV? ...



Jenny
by Think about it
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 8:15 PM
If the poster of that message in this forum has no idea who you are. And has no reasonable
way of finding out your true identity, location, etc, then there is no way a resonable person
can think their life was in immediate
danger. Therefore, the elements of 422P.C. are not met. I am a police officer and this
what I would tell you if you were
reporting this to me.
"equipment and technology that corporate America
gave you."
by customer
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 8:53 PM
"gave"!?!

Give me a break. They sold it to us at a handsome profit.
Words of Wisdom
by trinity
( nah ) Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 8:53 PM
JUST REMEMBER GUYS'

FEAR leads to ANGER
ANGER leads to HATE!!!!!
HATE leads to THE DARK SIDE OF THE FORCE.

for all of you idiots who have no fucking integrity. keep it together god damnit! your heart is the only thing that can save you, rules dont matter, only what your heart tells yoy.
yeh yeh i know it sounds funny but when that dya finally comes on your death bed, and for a moment you have to chance to see everything clearly..
would bubba be proud to have said such stupid things.
and could you really be so sure that the man deserved death, both Dan and Andy.

the system is flawed.

the future is ours.

Whats in there?
Only what you take with you...

peace
love
forever
by none
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 10:44 PM
nickname is?
Just so you know...
by BJ
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 11:57 PM
Just so you know, I hope that you hang, and that whatever movement, that you were trying to support by committing this crime, is harmed by it.
more from Doc Beard
by Oscar beard
Thursday Nov 28th, 2002 2:12 AM
Well, all thisa shows to me is there are alot of angry people out, there.
The question is why are you angry?
Is it because an innocent cop has been killed?
Or because our lives are so controled that you can no longer buy a piece of clothing without it being made in a third-world sweat shop?
The abuse on this site against "activists" by certain individuals just enhances the statistics that 1 in 30 has sociopathic tendencies.
It is so easy to insult over a web site, nice and safe isn't it.
Shame you don't have the balls to face up to what you are really angry about. Instead you attack the only people who care about whats left of our world and the people in it, calling them smelly, crusty, dirty and unemployed.
Try something original.
And instead of all being angry and attacking each other, why not try to get along. Help each other, get that monkey off your back.
Still, its nice to see the few mails from people who seem to have a brain. Keep up the good work those of you who care, and be careful. As my last mail, I think this is the beginning of non-conformists becoming a suspected terrorist organisation, in America I believe it already is - everything Biafra warned us of about twenty years ago.
Peace.
well
by jamie
Thursday Nov 28th, 2002 4:06 AM
I agree with the majority of your points, but you've totally destroyed any respect i had for you by murdering (or claiming to) a human being.

You're a fool, man, a fool.
Who's Sick?
by Jason
Thursday Nov 28th, 2002 6:17 AM
Who is more sick? The man who used a gun to make his point - however misguided - or the ones who scream about wanting to 'rip his f**king testicles off' and 'burn his throat with acid' ?
If they offered him to the mob, there is no doubt he would get ripped limb from limb... How is it that he a psychopath but you are all righteous people who simply believe in 'an eye for an eye'? Like I say... who is more sick?
RE:Yes
by Sanity
Thursday Nov 28th, 2002 7:37 AM
< Yes it includes Iraqi people... that's why Saddam needs to be shot, you idiot! >

I found this website by a link. I have never been here before. I felt compelled to answer the statement above.

Yes, the Iraqi people deserve happiness and peace like everyone else, but they also deserve the respect that should be given to all people and nations. Saddam is their leader, chosen by them and no one has the right to use the "idea" of liberating the "Iraqi" people to go in an massacre the innocent for their own emotional and monetary gratification.

I would take it as a personal insult if another Nation came to the USA to liberate us from the president in charged just because they thought that their moral views of the world were better than ours.

What gives people a right to think that their moral values and ideas should be spread around the world and say world has no right to fight back? Throughout history nations and people have fought against those that oppressed them, fought against the Romans, Hitler Germany, and so on. This factions thought themselves better than anyone else.

Our beautiful Nation with so many good romantic people with heart of gold don't seem to see the road that is being taken in the last 40 years or so. This land were mistakes are made and from those mistakes sometimes learning is done, hopefully, can awaken to stop the distructive path that is starting to take before is too late.

My heart goes to the Officer that was killed and his family, and also to the young man that claims involvement in killing him.

I'm older now, and hope that my grandchildren will have a world and a Nation that they could be proud of instead of growing up in rage, hatred, and avarice.

As a people we must learn to think for ourselves. We can't forget that we put those people up there. WE can't forget that they are human with their own agenda, and if we don't keep an eye on them they will walk all over us. What happens when people, even good people gain power over others? Human nature kicks in, their internal issues kick in. It doesn't happen overnight, but it happens.

To blind ourselves to believe that the people we hired to run the country while we live our day to day lives has our greatest interest and happiness is to ask for disaster to walk into our lives and sit at our dining room table. WE must keep informed of the events in our nation and around the world and not fall for the latest propaganda that feed our emotions and fears.

The biggest lie that the people have eaten and it still works is that there is the "Government" and there is the "People". I say there is only, "GovernPeople" that must take responsibility for those that are at the moment running the country.

Thank you for listening.
Happy Thanksgiving

A hopeful American


Banana Republic
by European Citizen
Thursday Nov 28th, 2002 7:43 AM
You guys make me laugh and cry at the same time. Stupid Americans. Killing eachother. Exploiting your own citizens. Exploiting other countries. I wish the Dutch never traded Surinam for Manhattan and I wish the French and Spanish never left. I wish the English never gave up. Because, then there would have been some 60 independent states instead of a Banana Republic called 'USA'. Oops, wasted too much words on y'all. Say hi to Dubya.
Latin American
by Eduardo Horta
Thursday Nov 28th, 2002 10:10 AM
I bet 90 percent of the people who published their comments didn´t even bother about reading the whole article. This proves that he shouldn´t have done that.
Because the average United-Statesians will remain fascist, and slaughtering third world civilians. That you will remain disinformed by your corporate media.
You all (well, most of you) don´t care when people here in Latin America, the asshole of the world suffers from your foreign policies, from your multinationals. If you´ve got a little brain left, a suggest you forget the killing for one moment, read the article and try to think about it. "think?!" yes, it is not that hard. Go on, you can do it.
To European Citizen
by American Citizen
Thursday Nov 28th, 2002 10:20 AM
You guys make me laugh and cry at the same time. Stupid Europeans. Allowing yourselves to be killed time and time again. Allowing your government to exploit your citizens through feudalism, imperialism, fascism, communism (all european inventions). Burying your heads in the sand time after time as your governments sell arms to the highest bidder, allowing threat after threat to rear its ugly head. Burying your heads in the sand as your bureaucratic nightmare governments sap every last remnant of your nations sovreignty.

You live in a place where a citizens destiny is determined at age 12, and you don't care. Your cynicality precludes you from seeing that Europe has not produced real innovation in tens of years. Your inability to improve yourselves, foisted upon you by your political and economic system, has led your moral compass into the abyss. To the rest of humanity, it seems you care about nothing.

How long did France take to fall to the Nazis? 30 days? The Poles held out just as long, and they had nothing more than antiquated rifles and horses. Are you ready to wave the swastika again, Europe? Because that's the type of history you are likely to repeat if you keep travelling down the road you're on. And, frankly, this time the rest of us are starting not to care.
On Patrol
by Patrol 1
Thursday Nov 28th, 2002 11:13 AM
Unfortunately, his message is lost in is act. You take "a minute" and think about it. What if yours was the 18mth old child left without a father?
Too bad...
by Andy
Thursday Nov 28th, 2002 11:47 AM
It's too bad his message was lost in such a sick act. I see two victims here: the police officer and the murderer. I don't like corporate America either or the police, but A LIFE IS A LIFE. We should all look at the situation with lover, rather than fear, despite the horrendous nature of the event, for love will release us from our shackles. Fear is what big business would like us to feel. It's unfortunate that this young man's ideals were flushed down the drain when he acted no better than the corporations he is speaking out against.
An Activist
by NotMine
Thursday Nov 28th, 2002 11:48 AM
I have been reading all thes posts for many hours.
And CNN has been on all this time with no mention of this issue.
Assuming that Andy murdered this officer how come it is not being covered?
If I chose to uphold the law as my career I would want to know about this, and every detail about it.
I remember April 24 1998 Philadelphia when an entire city was shut down for Mumia Abu Jamal the allegd cop killer.
Again if I was a police officer or related to one by blood I would like to know if an American city was shut down by American citizens.
If I was an American citizen I would like to know if an individual chose to begin the revolution on his own terms.

As a non-violent activist I appose the killing of any person even, Bush and his dynasty.
But as a thinkning man, I have to ask what is the future of America?
Is it all over? Are we turning into Bogota, Israel or the Congo? Is it all down hill from here.
Here is a little story that might give us a glimpse of what is to come.
I speak to all radicals, grassroots activists, police officals, and cop haters and lovers.

I know a man who was a Cuban refugeee and anti Castro supporter.
He hates Castro because he had lost family members to the revolution.
He and his cousin had supported anti Batista movements ironically.
But when th revolution came, the revolution came. Land was divided amoung the people and away from the filthy rich.
His family was just avboe the line of being poor so they lost it all. His uncles were killed.
Now history shows us that Batista was a corrupt pig US cronie. And so a revolution in Cuba would be very popular.
The revolution was held as an example to follow amoungst millions of freedom fighters and rebels across the world for decades.
My point is that a revolution is bloody and it is swift.
If a revolution happend here . . .
Do you think that a man who has slept undergound in Grand Central Train Station for 15 years would hesitate to blast the skull of a man in a business suit if armed and told to fight for freedom?
This man in a business suit could be the most amazing leftist professor the world has ever seen.
But to a homeless revolutionary he is just a white man in a suit.
I speak to all rightwing and leftists and those who dont know enough to take a position.
What Andy did is not excusable, but it will happen again with more frequency - because what he wrote about the what is happening around us is TRUE.
Killing is wrong, killing anyone is wrong, but no matter what stance you take, we all know that this was bound to happen, atleast the academic community did.
The right wing will respond by taking away more civil liberties from Americans.
They will take away our rights and privilages as we become more poor.
The people will loose more jobs, and they wont go joining the KKK or any Aryian race, they will find a more obvious enemy, like Andy did.
The left will become more aggressive as the anarchist movement grows and become less white.
Once the "movement" becomes less white - the country will have a bigger problem in their hands.
A population of the most oppressed taking action in more desperate means than white activists.
My point is simple and I will close with this.
For those who symphasize with the Red Bluff community and thier police department, please dont take my statement out of context.
What Andy addressed are true concerns that we can not just disacknowledge because he killed an innocent police officer.
The future of our country depends on our keeness.
If we let things continue the way they are, revolutions, terrorism, massive direct action and the end of relative freedom will begin.
Things have gone to far. How many people do you know are now layed off. How many of you cops feel that you are being treated fairly and paid correctly.
What is happening to America's teachers?
How many of you believed Bush senior when he spoke about education?
How many of you believed Bush Junior when he spoke about education?

To avoid blood shed and riots we have to take responsibility of what our actions are.
We cant just vote and sit back. We have to now gear our enitre lives to save the United States of America.
Revolutions are bloody and they literally hit home.

Not in our name.

p.s. if a revolution did begin . . . I would no longer be an activist - I would be a revolutionary.
Justice?
by Shawn
Thursday Nov 28th, 2002 12:08 PM
Andy, I am the son of a police officer. I don't believe it is possible for you to truely understand what you have done. You will go to court, to jail and then to hell. This is a sad thing, because you will never know what it is like to be the son of a MURDERED police officer. In my opinion you should not be killed, you should be allowed to live, get married, have a son and after 18 months your family should be brutally executed in front of you. You will be forced to watch, then live the remainded of your life as Bubba's bitch in prison. Then and only then will you understand the consequences of you actions.The only problem with this is society would never allow this to be done, because killing another person is not the answer. I do not believe you should be sent to death row, that would be to easy. You should be brought to Red Bluff and the citizens should controll your future.

re: Think about it
by jenny
Thursday Nov 28th, 2002 1:49 PM
i bet if someone on this board threatened to blow
YOUR brains out, you and your little double-standard-
kiss-the-report-off COP buddies would take it very
seriously and 422 would apply then, right? i bet you
guys would make a federal case out of it and i bet
the feds with their electronic resources wouldn't
have a problem with identification (if it involved a
cop), right? i bet 422 works very well when the
victim is a cop. but when cops and their groupies
post threatening messages on this board against
people who have a different way of looking at the
world, laws like 422 are no longer applicable. come
on, with a little "creative report writing" you guys can
make almost any law applicable when it affects
one of your own. the majority of people on this site
are very intelligent. you cops should stick to that
sanitized, stale PORAC News. in fact, i bet if someone
posted an anonymous threatening message on
PORAC News' website or the website of a local
police department you and your little cop buddies
wouldn't have a problem finding that person and
charging them with 422.
andy mac
by Paul
Thursday Nov 28th, 2002 2:39 PM
.95 cents and 2 # presure is all that boy needs to get his mind right...
andy mac
by Paul
Thursday Nov 28th, 2002 2:55 PM
and after hes dead, then we give him a fair trial...
The Defense of a Terrorist
by Another Latin American
Thursday Nov 28th, 2002 3:13 PM
"The defense of a terrorist"

"What I´m about to tell you is not a defense. I´m not trying to getaway from the punishment imposed by the society i´ve attacked. By the way, i only recognize one court capable of judging me - myself - and the veredict from any other court doesn´t matter to me. I only wish to give you an explanation regarding my actions and how i was taken to practice them.

"It´s not been long ago since i have become an anarchist. It was only half-way through the year of 1891 that i took part in a revolucionary movement. Untill that time i used to attend places filled with the ruling moral. I had been educated to respect and even love the ideas of nation, family, authority and property. The truth is that the teachers of this modern generation many times forget of a really important thing: that life, with its struglles and defeats, its injustice and it´s iniquity, encharges itself of opening the eyes from those that still ignore the reality. This has happened to me, and so happens with everyone else. They´ve told me that life was easy, that it was opened to all intelligent people and filled with enthusiasm; the experience has taught me that only the cyincal and the servile got nice seats in the feast. They´ve told me that the socil institutions based themselves in justice and equality; I used to observe the things surrounding me and I could only see lies and falsity.

" As days went by, i was continuously loosing my illusions. Wherever I walked, I would witness always the same thing: the misery of some and the joy of others. It didn´t take long for me to understand that the big words ehich I had been taught to worship – honour, devotion, duty – were only masks that hid the most shameful baseness. The owner of the facory that acumulated huge amounts of money thanks to the labor of workers that had nothing, he was a gentleman; the deputies and ministers, whose hands were always opened waiting for the bribery, were men dedicated to the welfare of the people; the policeman who experienced a new kind of rifle shooting seven year old children, did his duty perfectly and was greeted officially in the parliament by the president of the council. All of that disgusted me and my intelligence was little by little atracted to the criticism made to the rulling social organization. Those criticisms have been repeated so many times that it is not worth repeating them. It is enough to say that I soon became an enemy of the society I judged as criminal.

"Attracted, in the beginnin, to socialism, it didn´t take long for me to get away from this party. I love freedom too much, I have an enormous respect for the actions of individuals, and I repel the military organization too much to
become only one more number in the ruled army of the fourth state. Besides that, I believed that socialism wouldn´t get to change the establishment because it mantainned the concept of authority – and whatever is the idea the self taught free thinkers may have regarding it – that concept represents the survivor of an ancient belief of a superior power.

"Scientific studies took me to realize, little by little, the role that the natural forces play in the universe. I became materialist and atheist: I understood that the modern science rejects the hypothesis of the existence of god because it doesn´t need it. The same way, the religious and authoritarian moral based on false arguments should also disappear.

"I used to ask myself how could I combine this new moral with the laws of nature, capable of regenerating the old world, so that it would be possible to make mankind happier. It was in that moment that I got in touch with a group of anarchist comrades which I still consider, today, as the best one I´ve ever had. The character of those men captivated me immediately. I saw a great sincerety, a total directness, a vigorous distrust of any prejudice and I wanted to understand the ideas capable of producing those men, which where so different from the ones I had know untill then.

"Those ideas, or the way i got to understand them, found in my mind a fully prepared soil – thanks to my personal remarks and reflections – to receive them. They came only to give objectiveness to what already existed in a vague, undecided way. And I became an anarchist myself.

"It is not necessary to go on any further on discussing the anarchist theory. I only want to enphasize that its revolutionary side and its negative aspects and destructive brought me to its presence. In this moment of bitter and strong combat between the medium class and its enemies, I´m almost taken to say, as did Souvarine in Germinal:
'All the discussions about the future are criminal, because they stop the destruction pure and simple and they slow the march of revolution'

"As a personal contribution to the struggle, i brought with me a deep and everyday renewed rage, renewed by the spectacle of this society in which everything is low, misunderstood and ugly; in which everything serves as an impediment to the stream of the human passions, to the generous impulses from our hearts, ro the flight of the free thought. I wished to stab it so hard and with as much justice as possible.

"Let us start with the first attempt, the explosion at Rue des Carnaux. The first news about the workers strike filled me with joy. The miners seemed to have abandoned the useless pacifist strikes, in which the confident worker paciently expects that his little francs win against the millions from the company. They seemes to have finally chosen the road of violence, witch was shown on August 15th, !982. The offices and buildings of the mining camp were invaded by a huge crowd that was about to make justice the hated engineer when the scared ones decided to interfere.

"And who were those men? The same that made all the revolutionary movements abort, because they fear that, once free, the people will no longer obey to their command. The same that convinced thousands of men to bare the deprivation month after month so that, when protesting against these depravations, they can create a popularity to themselves to get them elected. Those men – the socialist leaders – took control over the leadership of the worker´s strikes indeed.

"Immediately was born in the region a cloud of loquacious gentlemen that were fully supporting their struggle, organizing lists to get funds, arranging meetings and search in every possible place. The miners gave them the whole organization of the movement and everyone knows what happened. The strikes continued, extended for days and the miners established very close relations with hunger, that became their most faithful friend. They soon ran out of the little funds they had saved from their own union and from other organizations that had come in their aid, so, at the end of the second month of strikes, hummiliated and sad, they returned to the minig camps poorer than ever. It would have been simple in the beginning to attack the company in its only fragile point – the financial – burning down the stockpiles of coal, destroying their machines. If they had done that, the company would surely not take long to change its positions. But the great socialists didn´t allow them the us of these methods because they´re typical of ancarchism. In using them we´re subject to being shot and, who knows, even receive one of those bullets that resulted so miracuously in Fourmies. This is not, for sure, the best way of achieving a seat in the city council, or in the parliament. To summarize it, after a momentaneous interruption, the order was reigning again in Carmaux, once the small problems were eliminated. More powerful than ever, the Company continued to exploit th epeople, and the shareholder gentleman greeted themselves for the happy closure of the strike, feeling twice as much pleasure when receiving their profit.

"It was then that i decided to introduce in that concert of such happy sounds a voice that the bourgeois already knew, but thought that had died in Ravaxhel: the voice of dyinamite. I wanted to show to the bourgeois that, from that moment on, their pleasures wouldn´t be complete, that their insolent victories would be disturbed, that the gold calf would violently shake in the pedestal untill the final blow that would made him roll among dirt and blood. At the same time, I desired to make the miners understand that there´s only one kind of men capable of sincerely worrying about their suffering and willing to take revenge: the anarchist. These men don’t seat at the parliament as mr Guesde and his affiliates, these men march untill the guillotine.

"Thus, i prepared a bomb. In one moment, I remembered the accusation that had been made in Ravachol. What about the innocent victims? But I soon solved this problem. The buildings where the Carmoux Company had its offices were inhabitated only with bourgeois: there wouldn’t be, therefore, innocent victims. All the bourgeois live from the exploitation of the less fortunates and fair and they should pay for their crime; Thus, full of confidence in the legitimacy of my act, I left the bomb in front of the door of the offices of the Company. I’ve already said here about the I hoped that in case it was discovered before it exploded, my bomb would end up detonating in the police station, where those who would possibly be injured would be enemies as well. Those were the reasons that made me commit the first attempt which I’m being accused of.

"Let us see the second: the incident at the Terminus Café. I had just come back to Paris during the Vallant case and I had been a witness of the terrible repression that followed the explosion in the Bourbon Palace. I saw the Draconians measures that the government decided to strike against the anarchists. There were spies, searches and arrests everywhere. A group of individuals put in jail for no reason, taken away from their homes and thrown in jail. Nobody worried about knowing what would happen to their wives and children while those comrades stayed arrested. The anarchist was no longer a human being, but a savage beast that should be hunted without mercy while the bourgeois press, slave of authority, demanded in loud voices that they were all killed. At the same time, leaflets and anarchist papers were confiscated and the right of reunions was abolished. Worse than that: when it seemed smart to get rid of a comrade, an informer would let in his room a package that, according to him, contained tanning bark; the following day there would be a search with a warranty dating the day before and they would find a box with a suspicious powder in it. The comrade then was taken to court and condenmed to 3 years in jail. If you want to know wheter this is real, ask the bloody spy that got to infiltrate in the house of comrad Merigeaud! But such methods were valid because they attacked an enemy that had spread fear, and all those that had feared wanted to show their courage now. As an approval of that cruzade against the heretics, we heard the Minister of Interior, mr. Reynal, declare in the Chamber of Deputies that the measures taken by the government had spread terror among the anarchists. But that still wasn´t enough: a man that had never killed anybody was sentenced to death. It was necessary to show bravery untill the end, and in a bright morning he was killed in guillotine. But, mr bourgeois, when making such plans you’ve forgotten the main thing, you arrested hundreds of men and women, violated tens of homes, but, outside the walls of prison, there were still men that you didn´t know and that observed, hiding in the shadows while you hunted anarchists, waiting only for the right moment so that they could hunt the hunters.

"The words from Reynal were a challenge thrown at the anarchists. The challenge was accepted. The bomb found at the Terminus Café is the response to all the violations of freedom, to the prisons, to the searches, to the laws against the press, to the mass deports, to the guillotines. But – you may ask – why attacking pacific costumers of a café that were simply seated listening to their music and that were not judges, nor deputies, nor bureaucrats? Why? It’s quite simple. The bourgeois didn’t make distinction among the anarchists. Vailant, a man that acted alone, threw a bomb, more than half of his comrades not even knew him, but that didn’t mattered; it was a mass pursue and any person that had connections with anarchists, no matter how little they were, should be hunted. And because you see a whole party for the actions of only one man and attack with no distinction, we will attack without choosing the victims. Maybe you think that we should attack only the deputies that make the laws against us, the judges that use these laws, the police that arrests us? I don’t agree. Those men are nothing but instruments. They don’t act in their names. Their functions were created by the bourgeois as a form of defense. They are not more guilty than any of you. These nice bourgeois that don’t have any seat in the parliament, but crop the profits and live idly thanks to the profits obtained by the hard labor of the workers, those should also suffer on our revenge! And not only them, but everyone that agree with the rulling order, that clap their hands for the acts of the government and this way become their accomplices; the workers that earn 3 or 5 thousand francs a month and that hate the people with an even bigger rage than the one from the rich, that stupid and arrrogant mass of people that always chooses the stronger side – putting in better words: the daily customers of the Terminus and many other big cafés! For that reason I attacked at random and didn´t choose the victims.

"We should make the bourgeois understand that those that suffer are now tired of suffering. They start showing their teeth and when they attck they will be as brutal as the brutality used against them. They have no respect for human life because the bourgeois themselves have already shown that they don’t care about it. The assassins responsible for that bloody week and for Fourmies consider the others as assassins.

"We’ll not spare the women and bourgeois children because the women and children of those who we love haven’t been spared as well. Shouldn’t we include, among the innocent victims, the children that die so slowly of anaemia in cardboard shanties because there’s no bread in their homes? The women that become every time more pale working in the factories, getting jadded to earn a few bucks per day and considering themselves happy if the poverty doesn’t take them to prostitution? Or the old men that have been treated as machines for their whole lives and that now are sent to the mount of rubbish in the asylums, when they have no longer strength to work?

"Have a least the courage to admit your crimes, gentlemen of bourgeois, and recognize that our revenges are totally valid. Of course I don’t have illusions. I know that the mass are still not yet prepared to understand my actions. Even among the bluecollars for whom I fought many will still be mislead by what others think of me. And I don’t ignore the fact that many individuals that call themselves anarchists will rush to deny solidarity to the ones that want to spread the action. They try to establish a fine diference between the theoretical and the terrorists.

"Extremely cowards to risk their own lives, they deny those that have this courage. But the influence that they want to have over the revolutionary movement is absolutely none. Today the field is open to action without weakness or retreats.

"The Russian revolutionary Alexander Herzen said once that: “we should choose between two things: condemn and march ahead or forgive and turn back in the halfway”. We don’t want to forgive, neither turn back and we’ll always march ahead untill the revolution, the final objective of all of our efforts, finally happens to celebrate our work with the creation of a free world

"In this war with no mercy that we have declared against the bourgeois we don’t want anyone to feel sorry for us. We kill and we can bare the death. And therefore I wait for my sentence with disregard. I know that my head won’t be the last one you’ll cut: many others will still roll, because the ones that die of starvation start to learn the ways that take to the cafés and to the restaurants, the Terminus and Foyots. Other names will be added to the bloody list of our deads. You may have hung in Chicago, decapitaded in Germany, shot in Barcelona, guillotine in Montbrison and Paris, but you’ll never get to end up with anarchism. Its roots are too deep and it was born in the heart of a society that is rotting and disintegrating. It represents all of the liberty and equality aspirations that stand up against authorities. It’s everywhere, what makes it impossible to control. It will end up killing you all. "

Emile Henry in "A gazeta dos Tribunais" april27th-28th, 1894.
Latin American
by Eduardo Horta
Thursday Nov 28th, 2002 3:29 PM
I bet 90 percent of the people who published their comments didn´t even bother about reading the whole article. This proves that he shouldn´t have done that.
Because the average United-Statesians will remain fascist, and slaughtering third world civilians. That you will remain disinformed by your corporate media.
You all (well, most of you) don´t care when people here in Latin America, the asshole of the world suffers from your foreign policies, from your multinationals. If you´ve got a little brain left, a suggest you forget the killing for one moment, read the article and try to think about it. "think?!" yes, it is not that hard. Go on, you can do it.
Blind
by Emily
Thursday Nov 28th, 2002 5:13 PM
Sigh..once again a man tries to make a statement about how shitty this country is and everyone hates him. WAKE UP. Sure, killing isn't cool...but how the hell else is anyone going to pay attention to what he has to say? Why are there so many school shootings?? It's because no one would listen to what those poor kids needed to say!! Why can't u people look past the fact that he shot someone (which our wonderful government officials and police men do EVERYDAY and then get glorification for it,) and realize that although his tactic was bad, his intentions were good. All he wanted was to spread the awareness about how shitty our state-of life is, and he sure as hell did didn't he?? He certainly got us to listen, even though it was at the sake of someone else's life. But isn't that how America always gets its way, by destroying lives until that particular country or whatever it may be gives in? If anything, I'd say he was one hell of a citizen! He was doing exactly what all the bigs guys in the white house do, but I guess they got a little jealous because someone figured their plan out. I mean, think about it...haven't you all just wanted to kill that asshole boss or snotty teacher, but didn't have the balls because you'd get in trouble? YOU are the cowards. YOU are the ones who are afraid to stand up for what YOU believe in, and not what your bibles and officials and kings tell you to. OPEN UP YOUR FUCKING EYES AND REALIZE THAT WE ARE NOT FREE, THAT WE ARE CONSTANTLY CONTROLLED BY AN OVER-POWERFUL, UNFAIR GOVERNMENT.
Cover-up
by Barb_Z
Thursday Nov 28th, 2002 5:19 PM
http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/10/1540620.php
andy mac
by Paul
Thursday Nov 28th, 2002 7:35 PM
Horto. love to do thet. but were just to damn busy with killing the enviorment, the air and water, and we just don't have any time for you candy-ass wimps, suck it up and move over the dozers are coming..
I hope one person reads this
by Confused Friend
Thursday Nov 28th, 2002 8:48 PM
I must say this whole thing comes as quite a shock to me. I knew Andy Mickel, hung out with him in High School, and while we were not close friends, we were friends. I can't express how angry I am at him for what he has done, how he has hurt Officer Mobilio, his family, and the folks in Red Bluff who lost a great friend and leader in their community.

I'm not here to defend Andy. I haven't spoken with him in about 5 years, perhaps closer to 7 even because our paths parted after our sophomore year, so I won't even venture to say that I knew him that well. But it's close to home.

I know a lot of emotion and anger are woven in and out of this so deeply. There is a lot of pain in Officer Mobilio's family and friends, Andy's family and even the people who are just caught up in it as it surrounds them. Pain from anger, disbelief, shock, horror, sadness. I personally think that Andy was not in his right mind when this occurred. He was a very intelligent young man, a good student, and an excellent writer and dramatist. I can see the echoes of our similar education in the style with which he writes, but after style I lose all sense of the Andy that I knew. I don't recognize his rantings, his anger, his political views. I don't recognize the cold and callous nature that offers 1 line of apology against 5 pages of hate. I fear that the Andy who was my friend has taken a turn, crossed a boundary, and is living a life so unlike what he had... I'm very sad for him.

Again, I'm not trying to defend what was done. I don't agree with Andy's position. I'm just trying to say that there are 2 sides to this, and that Andy is a human, and he was a nice kid once. I'm sorry, Mrs. Mobilio. I'm so sorry that he did this to you, and that there is no sane explanation or reason. I'm sorry that this random, senseless act has touched your life so. I wish I could make it go away. But please, please, don't hate Andy. Despite what the world tries so hard to make us believe, there IS a God, and Jesus is His Son. Christ taught us to love our enemies, and He even died for us while we were yet far away, even while we were His enemies. Not just not friends, but ENEMIES.

Find God in your grief, look to Him for comfort. Let Him support you, let Him guide you. Pray for Andy. I know I'm asking alot, I know that most of you wish Andy were tortured and slain just as senselessly as Officer Mobilio, but please guard your hearts against anger. Only Satan wins when we hate our brothers and despise those who hurt us. God's forgiveness and grace is sufficient, it is all-encompassing. Through Christ, all things are possible--even a reunion with loved ones lost.

Again, I'm so sorry. My heart and prayers are with you.
condolences
by artraud
Thursday Nov 28th, 2002 10:51 PM
My condolences and sympathy to those who have lost someone that they love. Something is there.
I think the last two posts were from the FBI, fishing for wackos. I hope they can keep their own sanity or they'll grow up to be somebody's weird neighbors.
Living is harder than dying. Sorry.

oops
by artraud
Thursday Nov 28th, 2002 10:58 PM
I meant the latin american posts, a few back, sounded like they were written by wacko-hunters.
I didn't mean a comment on the later posts.
I'm a little slow.
...
by Evergreen student
Thursday Nov 28th, 2002 11:24 PM
this is weird and sad... i had a class with that cop killer (and why the ^%$# is he going by mcrae?? he was "andrew mickel" when i had a class with him)...i said maybe two words to him, but he indeed struck me as a little off...at the same time, he seemed kind of creative or something, so what a waste ... i feel for the officer's family, and andrew "mcrae's" actions really make no sense to me ... weird.
Mr
by Me
Friday Nov 29th, 2002 12:26 AM
I'm in the UK, and the posts here from some of the people regarding this are a sad reflection of American society. Yes, murder isn't a good thing, and no-one should be doing it, but your corporations get away with it day in, day out.
Obvious "COINTELPRO" Operation
by otterstrom
Friday Nov 29th, 2002 2:50 AM
The "ex-soldier" turned drifter -- allegedly turned confessed murderer -- roaming the country with multiple names and posting to a variety of alternative websites IS AN "AGENT PROVOCATEUR" PLOY.

The (plausible deniability) EX-SOLDIER(?) with multiple names (McCrae, Mickel, etc.) is a very obvious COINTELPRO-type operative. This military/fbi operation deliberately sent email messages or postings to a variety of progressive-left websites, as well as rightwing websites which question the government, as part of a typical COINTELPRO discrediting/undermining campaign. It is VERY OBVIOUS that the email messages & postings confessing to the tragic killing of a police officer by this supposed ex-soldier turned "drifter" are a PLOY to discredit both progressive-left media/organizations and also rightwing groups who criticize/protest against government policies.

This type of COINTELPRO DISINFORMATION PLOY attempts to associate government critics with violence and the advocacy of irresponsible & illegal tactics. The truth will come out about government deception and cointelpro-style, staged "agent provocateur" crimes against individual U.S. citizens and groups. Look at the reality of what occurred in the case of Judi Bari and the FBI-staged car bombing. Don't let the spooks undermine indymedia and other progressive websites (as well as any alternative media which question/criticize the government ). Be aware of rampant "agent provocateur" operations in this political climate. Don't be duped pawns of the George Bush, Sons & Cronies--Carlyle Group--Halliburton--Dyncorp--LockheedMartin--Wackenhut--ExxonMobil (Rockefeller/Standard Oil)--Citigroup--War Profiteering--Heroin/Cocaine Smuggling--Money Laundering CRIME DYNASTY.
FASCIST AMERICA IS IN DECLINE
by fuck them all
Friday Nov 29th, 2002 3:18 AM
The fanatical posts made by many people on this thread calling for the death of Andy McCrae by various means shows how sick mainstream Americans really are.

The same fascist American Patriots who are crying over the death of "Officer Dave" and the orphaning of his 19 month old child are the same people who have celebrated and supported America's genocide of over 500,000 Iraqi children the past ten years.

For Americans, the death of "one of their own" (i.e. a White mainstream pig) is eulogized without end. But the killing of infinitely more Third World people by the American Empire around the world is merely an empty statistic.

Un-fucking believable.

Mainstream Americans truly are a fascistic, racist, and nationalistic class of Nazis who deserve to reap what they sow.
.............
by .............
Friday Nov 29th, 2002 5:31 AM
"I'm in the UK, and the posts here from some of the people regarding this are a sad reflection of American society. Yes, murder isn't a good thing, and no-one should be doing it, but your corporations get away with it day in, day out."

Well, I'm in Canada and from my perspective, corporations are multi-national and hail from wealthy countries around the globe, and they are all doing it ... I don't think the Americans have a monopoly on that sort of thing. We're talking about a global elite here.
what a total fuck tard
by minons little helper
Friday Nov 29th, 2002 9:14 AM
This hapless idiot should be found and quartered for his stupidity. Leave it to the peoples republic of California's fine educational system to produce a fine gem like this. If he took 1/2 the effort he used to write his manifesto, he might actually accomplish something more than being a jealous cry baby.

You sir, are a fuck tard. Do the world a favor and take yourself out of the gene pool.


Unbiased
by jon
Friday Nov 29th, 2002 10:35 AM
Dare has been found ineffective since its creation.

I don't condon the way he went about his views, but i respect his views none the less.
insubordination
by dan abundis
Friday Nov 29th, 2002 11:08 AM
To those who apologize for this cop killer or wish him to burn. Just ask yourselves what has any act of revenge against a system or an individual done to make me or you any more safe now or in the future.
Smarty Pants
by flablando
Friday Nov 29th, 2002 12:08 PM
<p>This guy is really smart posting that he killed a police officer. I mean, I know he got caught, but does he think that the government isn't watching everything we all do on the internet? They definetly are. But how did they find him? That's what I wanna know how to do! How cool would it be to be able to find out the physical location of anybody who posts on these boards or any other board on the internet? <br><br>
<i>Really</i> cool but <i>really</i> scary

<p>
Mencken and McCrae
by TomB
Friday Nov 29th, 2002 12:21 PM
"The central belief of every moron is that he is the victim of a mysterious conspiracy against his common rights and true deserts. He ascribes all his failures to get on in the world, all of his congenital incapacity and damfoolishness, to the machinations of werewolves assembled in Wall Street, or some other such den of infamy." H.L. Mencken, ca. 1925
John Doe
by Troy Prouty*
Friday Nov 29th, 2002 12:22 PM
How about one hour with me?

You make sense with the republic and human life is precious, to bad our own government fails to notice it.

But since you want to fight, try me out ! Place, location and time?
fat american consumer
by troy prouty*
Friday Nov 29th, 2002 12:25 PM
actually it is you that needs a wakeup call.

Expect one soon !!
for mr smarty pants
by joe blo
Friday Nov 29th, 2002 1:00 PM
anyone can find where you are in a general location (ie, city/neighborhood). to find your exact address and name, the government contacts your ISP and requests the information.

And the government cannot possibly monitor everyone all the time. Unless you do something to cause them to monitor your activities.

I am not going to comment on this article because it would be rather useless and besides, it seems that most people are venting their anger rather than participating in an intellegent discussion.
ignorance
by your names are required
Friday Nov 29th, 2002 2:02 PM
lesson-color_match_by_percentage-paper_moon.jpg
lesson-color_match_by_per...

The end result is its all so worthless it hasnt the possibility of affecting our country aside from the cries of bleedinghearts, notes of idiotic sarcasim, and the bastardized comments of wanna be anarchists. If anything, Andy just damaged the few valid opinions he had to the point of no return in the eyes of many. Much has just been turned into dogma. I wish everyone wasn't so god damn retarded. I will not cry or feel sorry for 2 men I did not know when my country refuses to let me feel sorry for the Palestinians like they allow me to do for the Israelis. Way to go Andrew, you just reinforced the very thing you hate.
blah
by blah blah
Friday Nov 29th, 2002 2:07 PM
QUOTE: "Leave it to the peoples republic of California's fine educational system to produce a fine gem like this."

hey jackass. he wasn't from and didn't live in california.
aside from that... your very hateful comments are the exact kind people that have been replying here despise.
Max Million
by Altoid
Friday Nov 29th, 2002 2:17 PM
<b>Too bad he actually killed a copper. Should have went after a corporate executive instead.

Hes got good ideas though, this world is phucked and we are slaves, too bad most people are too stupid to realize that.<b/>
Intel
by jenny
Friday Nov 29th, 2002 2:25 PM
Before the cop shooting your average California
street cop didn’t know (or really didn't care) about
IMC. Immediately after the so-called
“confession” surfaced on this site, Red Bluff PD
and others alerted their rank and file during police
shift briefings and encouraged their cops, with
the blessings of FBI, to saturate SF-IMC with
negative-inflammatory comments in an attempt
to draw out alleged “subversives.” Beware
coppers, police departments everywhere
have disgruntled employees on the payroll who
are always eager to blow the whistle, even in a
one-horse-town like Red Bluff. Another thing,
where’s the evidence? Aside from “The
Declaration” what else do you have on McCrae?
On the day of his arrest McCrae spoke to Sarah Vos
of the Concord Monitor. Did he make any
incriminating statements that directly implicated him
in the crime or did he just talk about his
political beliefs? On Wednesday it was reported
that cops “hauled boxes of evidence” out of
McCrae’s Olympia apartment. Okay, what kind
of evidence? The search warrant used in this case
is sealed for 90-days and I suspect its origin
was Tehema County. With every search
warrant served comes a “Return.” A Return is
an itemized list of all property seized and its filed
with the original search warrant afterwards at the
DA’s Office and Superior Court. A copy of the
Return was left at McCrae’s apartment as a receipt
of all property taken. I wonder what the Return
says? Also, with every search warrant comes
an Affidavit that reveals the specific facts that
cops used to convince a judge why a warrant
should be issued. In many instances, the Affiant,
or the cop applying for the warrant, will
intentionally distort and manipulate facts to
mislead the judge into issuing the warrant. It’s all
part of the “creative report writing” process that most
of them subscribe to, a process they all
experienced during their initial indoctrination into
the Cop Subculture. In McCrae’s case, the
search warrant affidavit should serve as a blueprint
to the subsequent raid conducted at his
private residence. I suspect the cops will do
everything within their power to suppress
this information if evidence is weak. I suspect
the reason we haven’t heard about any new
evidence is because there is none. Finally, if the
cops conveniently forgot or failed to leave a copy of
the Return or some form of a receipt for the “boxes
of evidence hauled away,” they screwed up.
How sad
by Jackie
Friday Nov 29th, 2002 4:25 PM
Wow! Andy was angry at the elite! It drove him insane and so he killed one of the other poor slaves of the system. What a shame. Two slaves gone and the corporations continue to take our freedoms at our own demands. UnReal. I pray for the Lord's return soon so justice can be served. By the way for you supposed Christians that want Andy eternally tortured I pray your rage will not result in Andy's sad fate. Think it over. God does not torture he simply cries for us all.
Andy will either come to realize his sin and ask for the forgiveness of God and get back on track or God will simply allow him the second death. I thank God the he is more merciful than all you Christians out there. With regards to the Officer shot. My sympathies to his wife and children. May it give you peace to know he sleeps and will resurrect on Judgement Day in perfect health. I pray he knew God before his death. With regards to the government and corporations ruining and killing millions year after year. God see all. Seek his forgiveness and change your evil ways.
Bigotry runs rampant in Bush's sanatorium
by Jabberwocky
Saturday Nov 30th, 2002 1:31 AM
Let me start by saying that as a human I genuinely feel pain for the family of this officer and killing is not right. But it absolutely boggles my mind that here, on Indy fucking media, san fransisco none the less, that I spent half an hour reading posts that were so tremendously bigotted and skewed that my head is swimming. This man has some damn valid points and Id like to know when in the "hell" that you like to condemn people to the American public will wake up and see that this was a desperate act, carried out by a desperate person who was so frustrated with this system that this is the only solution that he could come up with. Im not saying it was right, if the man even did this thing, but I am saying that it's not too hard to understand. It's not too hard to understand why someone would hate a cop because of the system that they represent. And yes, I can understand that maybe this cop was just an ordinary person that hated the system as much as anyone else, maybe he was even trying to change the system... I dont know, but I do understand that I know far too many people that bullshit laws and officers have put into jail and that fantasic DARE program feeds the fire that houses nonviolent offenders and takes away their lives, their familes, their dreams, their hopes... I can understand feeling frustration at that system and its millions of victims in our own country. What i cannot understand is that this man laid out something that our freaking pop news media refuses to touch. That our country, our president and our hijacked "democracy" is killing thousands of people every day with sanctions, with bombs, with bullshit excuses to preserve "freedom" and that the people of this country are more concerned to sit on their asses and blast someone for atleast doing SOMETHING. Cause as you know, our current couch potato, mcdonald's eating, nike buying culture has done so much to better the world. Jesus christ people, DO SOMETHING.. dont go kill a cop, kill this system that has mutated into a country that allows a madman to sit in office and kill people for oil. DOES ANYONE UNDERSTAND THAT THE THINGS THAT THIS MAN SAID ARE REAL? Someone tell me how the hell to get that message out.. someone tell the other future Andy's how to not let the bile and hatred and death that our country spews all over the world not be reflected in their actions. And someone please tell me just what has been done to stop this train wreck... this last election? The legions of voters that are so immersed in keeping their 70 hour a week job because of this spiral fall of the economy that they didnt even leave their desk to vote? The media's true reporting of the pipeline that magically got approved a couple of weeks after we started bombing Afghanistan? The fact that our govt's official stance is that global warming isnt real, yet here in northern california we have gotten less then 3 inches of rain since MAY and as I drive through the mountains towards Eureka, Arcata, etc the clear cutting now lets me see the haze for feet and feet? Or perhaps the laughable appointment of Kissinger to "head" an investigation into 9-11, the same man wanted in two different countries for trial on crimes against humanity, killing, bombing... not one person but thousands? Someone tell me why what this man did is any worse then the legions who do nothing, who just sit by and let our government kill people for OIL because it makes it easier for us to drive our one occupant Escalades. WAKE UP AND STAND UP and tell these people who understand, who drive themselves slowly crazy as their words dont make a difference and end up taking drastic measures like this what to do because marching isnt working, peaceful resistance isnt working... did you even know that over 150K people marched on the white house last month, or that on the other side of the country another 80K stood strong? Probably not, because it was more interesting for the media to cover something so earth effecting as a convienent child abduction or some sniper shooting. Someone earlier said that the generation that Andy is a part of doesnt care.. and you are dead wrong, we care but your years of ritalin and prozac, toxic culture, brand marketed lifestyles and advertising promises of consumerism and corporatization have left us not knowing what in the hell to do..

This is unfortunate, but atleast it was for something. Cause the pictures I see of cargo trailers full of suffocated afghanis placed there by our goverment, our military and left to suffocate or perhaps the wedding party that we "accidently" bombed, killing off almost an entire bloodline are for nothing more then OIL... And as you sit there and condone it you are a much worse beast then you are giving yourself credit for and perhaps some of the hatred you spew is just you, trying to live with your actions, your decisions and all of the murders that you have helped commit, there is blood on all of our hands.

Freedom?!
by Jose Ramirez Paes
Saturday Nov 30th, 2002 3:14 AM
I'm writing this text cause i wanted to thank you! Thank you all American people for setting us, from South America, free!

Freedom - yes - what does that word mean? Does any of you here can explain it to me, without doing US propaganda? Is that still possible to do? Can you even tell what freedom is? Or are you blinded by propaganda? I'm serious, it's a simple question. I want a basic definition, not in a political sense, just a plain and simple one. You people repeat this word over and over, you tell this word to us everyday - and i believe you don't even know what it means! Please, don't look up in the dictionary. Be honest.Try to figure out for yourselves. Tell me - what does your heart say?

And please tell me why you consider yourselves the freedom nation, cause i simply can't understand it. What makes you freer than any other nation? Maybe that's because you people were chosen by God - How many times have i heard the expression 'God Bless America'.?! And by the way, what does "America" mean? Does any of you know?

It's kind of strange to me, as a foreigner, I see so much talking about freedom overthere, and everything you seem to be doing around the world is spreading the anti-freedom. Maybe because i'm not from there, i simply couldn't possibly understand, is it? I don't wanna get ironical here, I'm being honest. I just want you to tell me the meaning of it, cause i just don't get it.

Does the freedom that you talk about so much really exists? Or is it just a fantasy? Is it real? Or is it something people repeated so much you ended up believing in it. As a South American, my sense of freedom is much inferior to yours, i guess. Freedom to me is the right to have food to eat. Just that. I'm serious.

Please don't come up with answers such as - "we're free because here the criminals fry on electric chair" (i've read many comments from different articles about people saying things like "he should burn in hell" - is that your sense of justice?!). I'm just asking you - please, don't write down the first stupid thing that comes on your minds, i want to start a discussion here, a serious one.

I know there will be people here who will not take that seriously, please, if there's still a soul overthere that is concerned about things other than itself and about playing jokes on the internet, swearing people they not even know just for the pleasure of being stupid. I can even imagine a reply to this comment saying - " yeap! I'm stupid. Not only me but also all Americans, why don't you South Americans go to hell?". That is always the first thing those people think of saying...

Anyway, returning to the real subject here...What is freedom, What does freedom mean? And i'm sorry if i ofended anyone here, i dindn't mean to. Really.

deaf people
by free soul
Saturday Nov 30th, 2002 6:27 AM
FREEDOM IS TO TELL PEOPLE WHAT THEY DO NOT WANT TO HEAR.
George Orwell

...seems that many people around here is deaf though.
Freedom 2x
by Jose Ramirez Paes
Saturday Nov 30th, 2002 7:19 AM
Good definition... that doesn't seem to be the case of your government, though. As far as I'm concerned, the things it tells you people is that "everything's fine, don't worry, we're taking care of it. Just sit your asses on your coaches, and relax. Trust us. We're nice and we're the good guys, cause i say so." While to the rest of the world, it says: "either you're with us or you're against us", and throw bombs to feed the savage beast that is your war industry. So, in that sense, we could say that you're setting us free! You are straight forward everytime you want to threaten us! Thank you twice for setting us free.
where's my dictator?
by brain
Saturday Nov 30th, 2002 8:52 AM
HMMMM....
After looking at these posts that range from center to left to far left I'm left with some questions. Why is it that Iraq's dictator is blameless for his countries state, why is killing a cop considered ok, and how does this help mankind in any way?
Definition of Freedom
by Isolationist
Saturday Nov 30th, 2002 8:56 AM
One man’s freedom is another man’s definition of fascism and totalitarianism. Another’s man freedom is someone else definition of anarchy and chaos.

One can even say freedom is the ability to open discuss the doctrine of murderer who killed a good family man in order to get more publicity for himself and his political views.
Freedom 3x
by Jose Ramirez Paes
Saturday Nov 30th, 2002 9:50 AM
Hmmm... This othe one was awesome too. Seriously. And if you're talking about me, that's in part, true. I'm not only trying to get publicity to my political views but also to encourage debate. Regarding publicity to myself, I can assure you, and you have the freedom to believe me or not, is not my intention.
Sorry
by Jose Paes Ramirez
Saturday Nov 30th, 2002 10:42 AM
sorry, people, i misunderstood the post that was before the one above. I guess my English is not that good :)
CIA setup?
by ben frank
Saturday Nov 30th, 2002 10:57 AM
Hey IMCers, anyone else think this looks like a setup?

1. This gives the CIA 'reason' to assert that any anti- (war, corporation, globalization) activist could do likewise, therefore anyone with such ideas can be arrested. - according to them

2. If Andy truly wrote and believed all that stuff, then he is intelligent enough to know that this action would do nothing to further the cause. He would have done some form of direct action linked directly to the scamming corporations out there. Killing a cop in cold blood is not something an intelligent, aware protester would do.

Question is, did andy write the post, then somehow the cia inserted the 'i killed a cop line' at the top?

or is he CIA all the way, gonna get locked up in 'solitary' somewhere, then taken out the back door to do more dirty work.


BLAH BLAH BLAH
by MRS. PIG TO YOU!
Saturday Nov 30th, 2002 2:25 PM
NONE OF THE CRAP YOU'RE ANALYSING HAS A THING TO DO WITH THE MURDER OF DAVE MOBILIO. WHY DON'T ALL OF YOU FORM A SUPPORT GROUP FOR POOR, UNDERPRIVILGED ,UNEDUACATED, UNDERFED OVER-POLICED AMERICANS WHO ARE ADDICTED TO POLITICS AND HEARING THEMSELVES TALK. IT WOULD BE MORE DIGNIFIED THAN TALKING OVER THIS FALLEN PUBLIC SERVANT'S BODY. JUST ONE LAST THING, PLEASE DON'T DIAL 911 , ONE OF MY FAMILY MEMBERS OR FRIENDS MIGHT SHOW UP TO SAVE YOUR ASS AT RISK TO HIS/HER OWN .
today's Q&A
by jenny
Saturday Nov 30th, 2002 2:41 PM
question:

http://www.redbluffdailynews.com/display/inn_news/news11.txt

answer:

absolutely, because two cops increases Bubba's chances of gettin caught when he sneeks out at night to molest the town's livestock
Goodbye, blue sky or a Ladder to heaven
by Orphey
Saturday Nov 30th, 2002 4:20 PM
One thing is for shure. The young people is starting to move.
Dylan Klebold (aka VoDKa) and Eric Harris (aka Reb
amongst many handles) from Littleton then Charles Bishop (15)
and now Andrew McCrae the young ones who where not affraid
to speak up.

(Pink Floyd)
- Look mummy, there's an aeroplane up in the sky
- Did you see the frightened ones?
- Did you hear the falling bombs?
- Did you ever wonder why we had to run for shelter when the
- promise of a brave new world unfurled beneath a clear blue sky?
- Did you see the frightened ones?
- Did you hear the falling bombs?
- The flames are all gone, but the pain lingers on.



Killing a person is not good.
Murder will never have a justification. ANY murder. Murdering
civilians in Afganistan by bombing them neither. For thouse who
whine out loud about how 'good' Dave Mobilio was and the quality
of his person maybe you want to reflect about the people being
cowardly killed by dropping bombs on them and mining the fields.
Murder is awflull and there is no doubt.

All of you who whine about 1 human life while reading the indeed
tragic news about the policeman's death, do you do the same when
you hear that children are dying of hunger or landmines left by US
military or bombs falling up form the sky.

Andrew McCrae invites us to make a Stop and to think over all the
bullshit we are taking for granted. To make a STOP is realy
non-vilent and powerfull move.

And all this post about candemnation to Andrew McCrae, do they
make you feel better? They do, right? You wont stop for a bit
to mourn any other people that die, you just dont care as it
is happening far away from you.

>>>He has taken a human life. He is shit in my book

He isnt, its just 'your book' smells.

This isnt about individualism, its about getting togeder. The
humanity is is driving itself towards destruction. We just dont care.

>>>What good could possibly come out of murdering someone?
>>>What was this guy thinking?

Why dont we all go outside, get togeder and cry out loud for all the
people that are being killed right now? What are we all thinking?
Dont you people realize that the money you are paying in taxes are used
to make all those guns, bombs and planes that kill same people that make
that money ???
Trying to get in heaven and all you do is grasping all you can in this world.

Like the South Park kinds are saying:
Maybe heaven isnt a place you can get too.
Maybe heaven is just an Idea.
Maybe heaven is this moment, right now.

Stop the WAR.

Andrew McCrae isnt a sniper that kills people for the money.
>>>Then, this crime, however terrible in intention, was disinterested,
>>>born of an abstract idea. +
The fact is that he has an Idea, the same Idea that the rest of the
people are lack of and I'm including myself. We are not making the
world a better place.

>>>The guilt of these homicides lies upon every man and woman who,
>>>intentionally or by cold indifference, helps to keep up social conditions
>>>that drive human beings to despair.

But the movement has started and we will hear more young voices.
I think the Proud and Insolent Youth Inc. will find its way, maybe
under another slogan but it shure will.
europe here..
by -
Saturday Nov 30th, 2002 6:43 PM
..move over to europe..

how nice of you fellow human beings across the pond to shuttle your dirt 'just' over to us europeans.. but anyway..

I think Andy has committed criminal actions he should not have committed, and if good law systems are upheld, he will pay for his actions appropriately. He leaves behind a family devastated by the loss of their father, and this grief is in no way repairable. For that he gets my deepest disrespect.

I also think this Andy guy is a bit deluded in his reasoning and the slogan'ish language he uses doesn't contribute anything positive to his words. But the scariest thing about this guy and his letter there, is that he apparently longs for a civilisation without war, without conflict, without oppression, without power, and that these things are very human things to want.

If you are a realist, though, these things can't be resolved in todays society.

What I think has happened here is that the man became a criminal in a mood of despair and afterwards even had the guts to speak for himself. I condemn his wrongdoing, and want to give my sincere condolences to the family. But at the same time, society itself creates it's own problems, and the people in it are mostly robots. Society should reflect at the causes, not just the consequences to what Andy did. Frustrated people like this are going to be ticking time-bombs as long as something sets them off, and todays society, I fear, is on it's way to make it a dense minefield. These guys are actually like a red flag waving that something is wrong. You should acknowledge that and improve whatever is wrong. You can not prevent these frustrated guys for doing the next 'unexpected' murder, just like winning the 'war on terrorism' is an illusion. You can only remove the grounds for the other party to wage war on you like this.

Let's hope we can have a better future, for our kids and future generations to come..
The
by Big cahoon
Saturday Nov 30th, 2002 10:39 PM
Andrew McCrae = Andrew Mickel

from Springfield, OHIO

wolfclan
by richard Andersen
( richardandersen [at] msn.com ) Saturday Nov 30th, 2002 11:45 PM
The fight for a better America takes another step backwards because of this idiot, If we are to bring about change we must stand together. Not with VIOLENCE against our own police, but with one voice promote change in the way we allow corperations to govern our White House and its Senate. lobbists and the those against reform should be ousted from office! " We the people" does not mean congress it means you and me. Lets stand together for a better government for our childrens future and throw this government out ,which is our right.
wolfclan
by richard Andersen
( richardandersen [at] msn.com ) Saturday Nov 30th, 2002 11:45 PM
The fight for a better America takes another step backwards because of this idiot, If we are to bring about change we must stand together. Not with VIOLENCE against our own police, but with one voice promote change in the way we allow corperations to govern our White House and its Senate. lobbists and the those against reform should be ousted from office! " We the people" does not mean congress it means you and me. Lets stand together for a better government for our childrens future and throw this government out ,which is our right.
The LIES about the War on "Terror"!!!
by Truth Seeker
Sunday Dec 1st, 2002 9:32 PM
It's worse than you could ever imagine -- oil is only the beginning! The global megacorporations are behind every facet of the war on "terror":

http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/iraq.html

DARE, Hell, Jesus Christ...I expected better than this.
by Anonymous..
Sunday Dec 1st, 2002 9:38 PM
I live nowhere near Red Bluff and don't know any of the people involved. In fact I came here through an article on register.co.uk. I went through half the thread pretty carefully to see what people's reactions would be, and frankly I'm quite disappointed with amount of sheer ignorance being displayed on here. The last place I expected to find bigotry and idiocy alive and well was indymedia.

To begin with, some full disclosure to give an idea of where I'm coming from. I have friends who've had horrible things done to them at the hands of the cops. I have friends who ARE cops. I've been through DARE...I've done drugs..I don't really do them anymore.. I'm not religious, I was raised unitarian. And I'm going to personally tear apart a few peoples ignorant rants, and try to post a (hopefully) more thought out view of my own. If you get bored with my dissections, keep reading, I will make my point later on, I promise.

First, I'm going to take a look at this fine thoughtful gem of a post from Dodie Thompson-Zimmerman (a few pieces excerpted here only for clarity and brevity, go back and read the original if you think I'm twisting anybody's words.)

<original>
I look forward to this piece of *#@# standing in front of the greatest judge of them all, Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! Vengence is mine sayith the Lord! And Mr. Andy scum You will feel the wrath of God upon you!!!! There is no way of death, painful enough for you, except the flames of hell uopn you!

<reply>
Ok, so here we go on about jesus christ....So the poster is probably christian. Supposedly these folks are into tolerance and compasssion, right? Believe that god should make the decisions and do the judging? Vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord...ok, so it's his job then, right? Oh, btw...Isn't cussing a sin where you come from?

<original>
We are outraged! I would like to have the opportunity to be face to face with this scum that took our officer in such a brutal manner. I wish they would bind his hands, walk him down our Main st. and let the community have their way with him. There is not a court in this country that will be fair to him, let's punish him the way they did hudreds of years ago!

<reply>
Give you enough rope, and sure enough, you manage to hang yourself with it. Here you clearly advocate taking matters into your own hands, or inciting somebody else to do so. (which may be a fine thing to do in some situations as far as I'm concerned, but not in this one...if you don't have the evidence in front of you, you can't be playing judge jury and executioner.) Furthermore, you just negated your whole invocation of Jesus Christ into the this discussion (where it doesn't belong anyways) quite effectively, by handily breaking at least a few of those pesky commandments. Christ preached love and tolerance during his life, you preach dragging people out in the street and mutilating them. I don't think you can find anything in your bible that supports that kind of behavior on your part. I rest my case.

Then there's this constant mentioning of DARE during this thread, seemingly trying to make the guy look more upstanding for being a DARE officer. Number one, it's a red herring. It's got nothing to do with the subject. He got shot..he shouldn't have gotten shot just for being a cop. It's wrong. End of story as far as that goes. But since you insisted in bringing DARE up, I'm going to go off on it a bit. (and I'm going to get off-topic, since we're already there...skip to the next paragraph if you want to get more on topic) When I was in school we had some DARE assemblies. I listened to everything they had to say, and thought it over. It amounted to propaganda, pure and simple for the most part. There was very little useful information provided, the message was primarily "You shouldn't do drugs"..."Why?"...."Because these friendly men in uniforms will have to arrest you if you do, and that would be bad" They had one rep from the police dept. who talked about how they would arrest people for having drugs or using them, and then another table with a guy from the DA's office who talked about how they would take you to court and send you to programs to make you not like drugs anymore, and piss test you to make sure you weren't using them. That's not education, that's intimidation. Sure, making a kid take a piss test every few weeks will keep them away from the bong....because they think drugs are bad now? NO..because they don't want to go to juvenile hall. Does that solve the problem? (assuming that occasional recreation drug use should even be classified as a problem) I think not...

Drug users are not freaks or scum who should be wiped out using violence (as some fools suggested) They are your neighbors, your co-workers, doctors, teachers, lawyers, cops, even your president. Th