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Proud and Insolent Youth Incorporated
by Andrew McCrae
Monday Nov 25th, 2002 7:37 PM
The man who killed a Police Officer in Red Bluff, CA claims immunity because he was incorporated.
Hello Everyone, my name’s Andy. I killed a Police Officer in Red Bluff, California in a motion to bring attention to, and halt, the police-state tactics that have come to be used throughout our country.
Now I’m coming forward, to explain that this killing was also an action against corporate irresponsibility.

All of the major problems in America and throughout the world today are caused by corporate irresponsibility.
The very concept behind corporations is to protect their owners from taking responsibility for their actions. This means that directors within corporations can dump waste chemicals in our drinking water, or keep our work environments in fatally dangerous conditions without any personal liability. Corporations murder thousands of people each year this way and are never held accountable.
As a statement against this practice, prior to my action in Red Bluff, I formed a corporation under the name “Proud and Insolent Youth Incorporated,” so that I could use the destructive immunity of corporations and turn it on something that actually should be destroyed.

The name ‘Proud and Insolent Youth’ is a reference to Peter Pan.
Just before their final dual and Captain Hook’s demise, Hook said to Peter, “Proud and insolent youth, prepare to meet thy doom.”
To which Peter replied, “Dark and sinister man, have at thee!”
Now, Peter Pan hates pirates, and I hate pirates, and corporations are nothing but a bunch of pirates. It’s time to send them to a watery grave, and rip them completely out of our lives.

The top 4%, the richest people in America, have more money than the lower 50% of the country combined. And it’s not because they scrimp and save or because they are somehow more deserving. It’s because they cheat and steal and twist the rules to their advantage.
They shatter smaller companies, downsize their own companies, and ship their own factories overseas or across the border to make fortunes in immoral money games. The people who lose out in this are the workers, the people who actually make things of value.
The question corporate capitalists have asked themselves is ‘why empower workers in America to demand better wages, better working conditions, and equal social rights, when you can ship those jobs off to a Colombian or Sri Lankan who can be forced to work under slave-like conditions?’
Don’t think the government is going to help us. Our government leaders are getting paid by them.
Selling out to the rich is inherent to political survival.
In order to afford dazzling election campaigns and make it into their positions of power in the first place, politicians will sell out to whoever can offer them the most money.
Likewise, the corporate lobbies that constantly press themselves upon our lawmakers have both billions of dollars at their disposal and great influence upon which laws are blocked or passed.
These things combined together means that someone who dedicates their lives to making other lives better will never be able to have the same political influence as someone who destroys lives and the environment in the pursuit of money.
Any laws established in the past that protect the American people, the environment, or smaller companies over corporate profits, our lawmakers will sweep away through Deregulation.
Corporate executives and well-preened conservative politicians talk about Deregulation in terms of ‘getting the government off our backs.’ This is because the role of the government is to protect its citizens, and ensuring that workers are protected costs these rich people money. But Deregulation simply gives corporations free reign over their markets, enabling them to overwhelm and envelope smaller companies, destroying our rights and natural resources along the way.
The government is also willing to look the other way while these same people claim outrageous tax breaks. Corporate executives buy gold-plated plumbing fixtures, stay in $3,000 a night hotel suites, take $2,000 wine-tasting classes, or buy $20,000 worth of rugs, and then have their corporations write these expenses off on their taxes. This means that those of us who actually do pay our taxes end up footing the bill for these luxury items!
Laws are even invented specifically for corporations which enable them to avoid paying taxes in ways that the average person is denied.
Through the IRS’s Net Operating Loss deduction, corporations can demand back tax money they’ve paid if they lose money in their business. When you are just barely able to afford rent, and groceries, are you allowed to ask for your taxes back? No.
Yet many multibillion-dollar corporations finagle their way out of paying any taxes at all. And still, some politicians are willing to badmouth ‘Welfare’ as the big inefficiency of our tax system. But less than $23 billion dollars is spent on Welfare annually, whereas over $100 billion is given away to big business each year to help them do things they should pay for themselves, such as buying new equipment or advertising their products. This ‘Corporate Welfare’ is even claimed by some experts to soak up $800 billion dollars of our national budget. This is even outside of the tax money corporations save, and the other hundreds of billions of dollars given away to corporations for other reasons.

Corporations will not voluntarily give up their dominating power of political immunity and the financial wealth it gains them. And with all our government leaders either personally connected to corporations or sold out to them, if we try to remove this corporate influence by ourselves, we will find ‘the Law,’ with all its weight, upon us.
Our politicians have no serious proposals for the problems of health care, unemployment, crime, disappearing pensions, or any of the pressing social issues that actually afflict us, yet they vote themselves raises every year. They vote themselves solid health care plans. They vote themselves hefty pensions. What about our health care? What about our pensions? Why don’t they watch after us the same way they watch after themselves?
It’s because if we had the opportunity to provide ourselves all of these things, the politicians and CEO’s wouldn’t be able to take the money for themselves. Having to spend all of our time to meet our middle and lower class needs means that we will not have time to fight against the forces that are actually pressing us into this situation. And the inevitable competition that results from this lifestyle splits us up, so that we cannot unite in an effort to destroy it.

The only uniting we are allowed is against the common enemies we are doctored to believe in, the foreign ‘terrorists’ who come to attack us. But these ‘terrorists’ do not violently attack the United States because they hate freedom, or because they think blowing themselves up is cool. They use violence against the U.S. because U.S. corporations and the U.S. government are murdering their families and destroying their countries.
As demoralizing as corporations make our lives, and as bland as they make our culture here in the U.S, corporations practice their immunity in far more brutal and murderous ways in foreign countries.
We are lead to believe that Third World countries are under-developed because the people living there just somehow don’t have the intelligence to drag themselves out of poverty.
The truth is that the people of these Third World countries know exactly how to get themselves out of their economic ruts, but are forcefully kept from doing it because of a dominating U.S. influence. These people want to develop their own industrial and technological industries by putting tariffs on U.S. products. But they can’t do this because the World Trade Organization (WTO) which is both dominated by U.S. corporations, and has the authority to regulate third world use of tariffs, prevents them from doing so.
Tariffs on U.S. products sold within Third World countries would raise their prices and ease consumption of them. This would give third world industries space in the market to strengthen themselves. Using tariffs in this manner is a fundamental tool for any country to develop into a more powerful nation, but the WTO is perpetually keeping them from doing it, just so U.S. companies can sell their own products there.
This is the exact same situation the American colonists were protesting when they threw the Boston Tea Party.
Furthermore, while these countries economies are weak, the International Monetary Fund (IMF) takes advantage of this weakness and forces them to restructure their national production in ways that are simply murderous- preventing farmers from producing crops to sustain themselves and their communities, and instead churn out more of whatever luxury products the U.S. and other developed countries want.
The IMF places such a high interest rate on its loans and restructures its debtor nations in such ridiculous ways, that these nations become locked perpetually in a poor, subservient role, unable to pay even the interest on their debts.
Then, when Third World peasants hold their own ‘Tea Parties’ and revolt against this foreign domination over their lives, corporate lobbyists cry foul and the U.S. military is called in to protect ‘U.S. interests.’ Soon following, a corrupt, U.S.-friendly government is installed, or reinforced: one that will accept blood money to do what the U.S. tells it to, and do whatever it takes to keep its own people from interfering with the U.S. role of economic supremacy.
George Kennan, the most powerful voice in U.S. foreign policy following World War II, clearly gave away these brutal motives for U.S. dominance when he said-

“[America has] about 50 percent of the world’s wealth, but only 6.3 percent of its population. In this situation, we cannot fail to be the object of envy and resentment. Our real task in the coming period is to devise a pattern of relationships which permit us to maintain this position of disparity… To do so, we have to dispense with all sentimentality… We should cease to talk about vague and unreal objectives such as human rights, the raising of living standards and democratization… The less we are hampered by idealistic slogans the better.”

American government’s collaboration with big corporations has turned America from a Republic into an Empire. In the same spirit that Rome was an Empire, raping foreign lands for labor and resources- in the same spirit that Britain was an Empire, which caused us to turn from Her in hatred.

Just as Rome and Britain did, America has military bases all over the world. How many foreign bases are established in the U.S.? How many would the American people allow?
We’re told a series of lies to make us willing to believe that having our military spread across the globe is reasonable.
The conscience of the American public is satiated with racist rhetoric, proclaiming us the ‘true defenders of freedom,’ and ‘the world’s one and only hope.’
We are told that we are the policemen of the world. We are told that our unique national position gives us the responsibility to check and balance other countries. We are told that the western citizen values life more than the overpopulated third world savages.
We are raised on something that sounds a little like this-
“We are more valuable than the others, who outnumber us and will always outnumber us. We are more valuable, because our blood has fitted us to be more inventive than the others, to be better leaders of our people than the others, because it has fitted us to be better soldiers, better statesmen, to attain a higher culture, to be better characters.”
That was Heinrich Himmler who said that, Hitler’s associate, speaking of why it was necessary for Germany to dominate the world.
Americans are no more naturally gifted with human capabilities than any other people in the world, and our lives are no more valuable than any other people in the world, either.
But these lies work because we want to believe them. It feels good to believe them.
Our leaders fervent our desire for war abroad and a police state at home by telling us that these people fighting for their freedom are ‘terrorists.’ Then they promise to protect us by destroying them through a process that will simply require us to give up a little freedom, and send our soldiers far over seas.
Hermann Goering, Hitler’s master of propaganda, explained the process like this-

“Why of course the people don’t want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don’t want war: neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in Germany... But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy… or a communist dictatorship… the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”

Does that formula sound familiar?
Successful campaigns of conquest must have a cover story to gain the support of the people who will be forced to fight in it. They are given a common enemy and distracted from their problems at home. The Nazis focused on the injustices of the Versailles treaty to motivate the German people into conquering Europe. We used to focus on ‘communism’ to steal all throughout Central and South America, and other parts of the rest of the world. Nowadays we focus on ‘terrorism’ to go into Afghanistan and Iraq. Notice how the reaction from the average American to the dual knowledge that we didn’t know where Osama Bin Laden was, but were still going to attack Afghanistan anyways, was, “Well, we gotta do something.” Yes! But let’s review our options first!
George Bush isn’t sending our soldiers all over the world to protect American or any other innocent lives. This becomes obvious when we realize that the U.S. military has killed more innocent civilians in Afghanistan than were killed in the World Trade Center, and that the family members of these innocent civilians are more devoted to anti-American ‘terrorism’ than ever before.
The only way to stop ‘terrorism’ is to stop raping and destroying the places ‘terrorists’ are from.

The real reason for sending our soldiers-
1- There is an OIL pipeline soon going into Afghanistan that has been long planned, but that the Taliban would not allow U.S. companies to build.
2- Iraq is sitting on top of one of the richest OIL fields in the world.
The truth is that George Bush is risking our soldiers and killing foreign innocents so that he can STEAL OIL.


The U.S. military is being used to steal this Oil. But our military does not exist to murder people so that the American rich can steal these dead people’s resources. It exists to protect our country and our lives. The government and corporations have bastardized our military away from us, endangering us and our soldiers for their own monetary gain.
They’ve been doing it for a long time.
But many veterans, after leaving the service, step back and look at U.S. foreign policy to see it for what it is.
As a response to President Reagan’s imperialistic attacks throughout Central America in the 1980’s, Charles J. Liteky, veteran and holder of the Congressional Medal of Honor, publicly renounced and returned his Medal. The Congressional Medal of Honor is the most coveted, highest possible honor a U.S. service-person can receive, and Liteky basically said, ‘If this is what our military is about, then I don’t want it.’
But even further back than that-
Major General Smedley Butler, a U.S. Marine, looked back on his 33-year career, which took him to combat in over 5 different countries, and determined that, “War is a racket… conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the very many.”
Smedley Butler attained the highest rank possible at the time and was awarded two Congressional Medals of Honor throughout his career. Once he retired, though, he realized and publicly stated that he had given all those years and sweat and blood, simply to make foreign lands safe for Wall Street. Butler proclaimed, “To Hell with War!” and went on to state that to get rid of War we must take the profit out of War.

I, myself, am an Army veteran, not so well-decorated as the Gentlemen I mention. Nevertheless, I am a graduate of the U.S. Army Ranger School, Airborne School, and Jungle Operations Training School.

The American government is violent all over the world to protect its ill-gotten money and goods.
But the American People don’t have the right to profit off foreign deaths and silently enjoy our position, then scream bloody murder when those foreigners react to our violence with violence.
If we refuse to recognize what our government is doing and why, if we refuse to realize that American lives are no more, and no less, valuable than other nation’s, then we deserve the ‘terrorism’ that we are forcing these people to commit.


So our government is sold out to corporations, and corporations are destroying the world.
Let’s do something about it!
Which is why I incorporated in the State of New Hampshire. The New Hampshire State Constitution, in the Bill of Rights, guarantees the Right to Revolution. I quote-

“Government being instituted for the common benefit, protection, and security of the whole community and not for the private interest or emolument of any one man, family, or class of men; therefore, whenever the ends of government are perverted, and public liberty manifestly endangered and all other means of redress are ineffectual the people may and of right ought to reform the old or establish a new government. The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power and oppression is absurd, slavish and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.”

I’m going to utilize the WTO’s tactic of applying to a foreign state the laws of the state in which I was incorporated.
I encourage everyone else to do the same.
I’m opening the board of directors of Proud and Insolent Youth Inc. to anyone who wants to be a part. It’s your corporation. There are an infinite amount of stocks and they’re all free. Anyone can have one; you don’t even need a certificate.
Proud and Insolent Youth Inc. is the corporation to destroy all other corporations. Our mission statement- Whoever abuses their corporate immunity to harm life and liberty, we will destroy through the use of our own corporate immunity.

It’s foolish to whine to politicians while allowing them and the police to bluff and bully you.
Let their oppression fuel your fire. Allow your passions to fertilize the seeds of constructive revolution. Allow your love of freedom to overcome the false values they place on human life. It’s too easy to forget the controlling things that corporations and the government do and lapse into apathy. Stop forgetting right now.

Recognize that the ‘Justice System’ always either kills justice or leaves it sitting too long, stealing away our lives while we wait. We have other things to do with our lives! We came into this world, not only to make it a good place to live, but also to live in it.
There are many different ways to effectively resist, both violent and nonviolent. Both are necessary. Don’t do anything you’re uncomfortable with, and don’t pressure anyone else into anything they’re uncomfortable with.

You have the power to nonviolently shut everything down! You can simply stop. No buses, no factories. A Nationwide Strike until corporations come out from behind their shields and the government meets your demands.
You must all join together and work together for this! Young and Old! Gay and Straight! Men and Women! Races of every description!
It is time to put ourselves out there on the line and risk to reach out for the Paradise we all desire. We can make this world better!
Young people of America!- I am here to tell you- you will not grow up and suddenly realize that you were wrong and that all the older people, who are sold out to the system, were right. Teenagers!- that impulse for freedom that you feel within yourselves, which everyone else seems to be trying to silence- it is not simply a product of your age, as so many would have you believe, it is Life, tugging at you, asking you to actually be Alive! The systems of control that surround you, which you hate, do not get better as you age. The control gets more invasive, more complete. Smash it while your youth still helps you to see it!

Everyone!- Remember that the authorities will lie to you. They will try to make you distrust one another. Trust each other in spite of the disinformation they feed you. Don’t believe any rumors you hear until they are confirmed. Different views and different tactics are okay, but communicate with one another! Especially when you are two autonomous groups collaborating. Communicate and don’t believe rumors.
Communicate with the liberal press, and with indymedia.
This system of oppression is not a solid unstoppable force. They just have really good reflexes and are good at the game. It feels unstoppable because you don’t know how they operate. Learn. Study them. Follow them. Photograph them. Don’t just call them apparitions and give up trying to understand them.
Spy on the spies.
Convert them. Convert the soldiers, the cops.
They are all intelligent, capable people.
Most of them aren’t aware of these injustices, or fight to convince themselves that they’re not there, so that they can still do their jobs. Help them see. Help them come to your side. They’ll make powerful allies.
All police and all soldiers and all spooks are frustrated with their jobs. Their leaders weigh them down with paperwork, and never deploy them to the hilt of their capabilities. They are all dissatisfied with the ways their out-of-touch leaders command them about. These foot soldiers simply want to be strong, and have accepted the official politics handed to them. Give them better politics and better strength. Offer them a better world and they will come over.


Manifest the World you want to live in!
Do this for yourselves.
If this be treason, make the most of it.


And finally, I must address Mister Bush, the one in the Oval Office-

Mister Bush,

The Presidential election process in our country has been taken away from the American people. Through the combined existence of the electoral college and the campaign funding process, it is guaranteed that any candidate actually willing to care for the good of the people will never get elected. Beyond this, even within the confines of this system, you were never actually elected with a popular vote from the American people.
Please set in place a democratic, beneficial election system and step down from the Presidency. Al Gore, who was popularly elected through this flawed system, shall serve as the temporary President until a True Representative of the People is determined.





God Bless Us, Every One,

Andy
by jefe
Monday Nov 25th, 2002 9:09 PM
Well done. Send it to all the IMCs, media, outlets of communication and rage -- wa-hoo.
by WhizWart
Monday Nov 25th, 2002 10:38 PM
First off, I don't think you really killed a cop. No one who actually did that would be that stupid as to put it on the net. If you did, I hope you fry. Plain and simple, a life for a life. Second, I just wanna say this. You guys always talk about change, so do it! I don't mean chaining your self to some stupid gas station or McDonald's. Run for government. Change it from the inside. Start on the local level and work your way up. Middle AMerica sees your sorry ass on tv chained to a store and thinks your lazy cause your protesting a 2 cent decrese in coffee prices while they go work REAL jobs. Get a campign, a message, and take a bath and they may take you seroiusly. Oh, and I agree corparate america sucks, but most people work and buy from them.....so whats your plan if we get em outta the way, hm? Commuism? hehe, that worked SO well.
by this thing here
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 8:00 AM
... the president of the united states of america, george w. bush II! and by his side this morning, the american association of corporations!"

"now, if you will direct your immediate attention to the central podium, a spokesman for the AAC, dick waver, will proceed with his remarks..."

"ahhh, good morning. ladies and gentlemen. friends and colleages. mr. president.

i am here this morning to dispel the vile evil in the speech you've read above you. it concerns us all here, including the president, that you might believe what that vile and unfortunate speech has said.

let me begin by being as clear as i possibly can. that speech is one gigantic falsehood. the whole of it is an evil lie, created by a traitor to the american cause. and...

i'm sorry, i just get very worked up about this kind of, terrible, vile, trash...

and... and it's your duty, ladies and gentlemen, fellow americans, to not believe one word of it.

we, your ruling class... wait, i mean, ahh... your fellow citizens, would never do the kind of things that vile speech mentioned. trust us, will you? trust us, because we are your friends, and we love you.

it is true that america has changed. we can see these changes all around us, everyday. my colleagues here beside me, and president george bush, want you to understand that america isn't as it used to be. we all no longer live in a democracy. we all no longer live in a capitalist state, like the kind of ages past. america has moved beyong these old terms. america has evolved into something new. america has become a plutocratic corporatist state. and this change is for the better...

this change is for the better because now, corporations, the ones that bring you smiles and french fries and cars, have become as strong as the government. let me put it this way: we, the corporations, have merged with the u.s. government, in the greatest business deal ever for the american people.

instead of an evil government telling you what to do, now america has the friendly faces of its patriotic corporations telling it what to do. what foreign policy to have. what wars to fight. what problems to tackle. now, you, the american people, have your friendly neighborhood corporations telling you what kind of car to drive, how expensive your medicine will have to be, how polluted your water will be, how low your wages will be, how safe your work environment won't be.

you see, this is the essence of a corporatist state. we, your friendly, caring, corporations, have assumed many of the powers of a government. we have organized society into our image. we have made it more efficient. we have made prices drop. we are the new government, and we are making a better world!

and on top of all this, we also have a plutocracy. and this, my fellow american citizens, is something you should all take pride in. we, being the wealthy, are smarter than than the rest of you. we come from better stock. we have more power than all you small gutter snipes, laborers, janitors, worthless house maids... umm, ahh, sorry, i mean, the rest of you people.

so because of these special gifts endowed to us, it is natural that we should assume governing responsibilty, is it not? would all of you uneducated hordes disagree with me? are you saying that all in america, rich and poor, this race or that race, should have a say? ahhhh, but you see, that is the old america. that america no longer exists. it's time to look forward to new and brighter future...

... and the new future is here, ladies and gentlemen. our new plutocratic corporatist state is fully supported by president bush, and his party, which now have complete control of government. and let me tell you, even some on the democratic side are coming around to our way of thinking.

with the merging of corporate and government power, we shall be able to do as we please. all for the betterment of this country, and the world. we shall be able to turn all the rules to our benefit. we shall be able to turn a watchdog agency into a booster agency for a corporation or an industry. we shall be able to write the rules so that WE, and not the rest of you small people, shall be protected. we sahll be able to look the other way with impugnity. we shall use the machinery of government, its military powers and its surveillance powers, to protect US FIRST, and then maybe the rest of you small people. we shall use our mighty armed forces to control this world, to make our corporations safe on foreign shores. we shall entrench our power, and shall circle the wagons against the hordes like you, and fend off all who are foolish enough to stand in our way.

as, unfortunately, the author of the speech above was. but this author does not understand a few, very, very important things. and they both involve the american way.

first, it IS the american way for there to be special rules for special people. we all know this. we all know that some get caviar justice, and some get stale bread justice. this is something that we, as americans, should feel proud of. it ensures that the right kind of justice is done for the right kind of person. we can't afford having the wealthy locked away in prison. prison is for the common man.

secondly, it IS the american way that if you make a lot of money, it automatically means that everything you're doing is o.k. many, unfortunate, uneducated, small people don't realize this. but the time has come for you to awake!

if a corporation makes billions in profit by outsourcing labor to the cheapest possible place on the face of the earth, where workers work 14 hour days in unsafe conditions making cents an hour, ALL THAT PROFIT MAKES IT O.K.! it's true!

if a corporation must use a dangerous toxin in a manufacturing process, because the safer alternative is too expensive, and over time, this toxin leeches into ground water and causes cancer and birth defects in the surrounding community, ALL THAT PROFIT MAKES IT O.K.! you see, with happy stockholders, and huge profit margins, nobody gives a fuck about playing straight, integrity, honor, honesty, justice, or any of those other old, outdated, and i might add, very 20th. century values. we have moved beyond that. we are in the 21st. century. and a new age has dawned.

so, ladies and gentlemen, friends and colleagues, mr. president, i shall conclude by saying that you have a choice to make. you can follow the lies and falsehoods of the speech above. or you can join us, as we prepare to take america INTO A NEW FUTURE HORIZON!
by ********
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 9:43 AM
You should go to hell
by Ben
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 9:44 AM
Nice job you moron...lay in wait like the coward that you are and whack a cop filling up his car with gae,shot from behind...like the tiny podunk town of Red Bluff Ca is a hotbed of police state tactics...who are you trying to kid?. You're just another sorry, pathetic, loser punk who's just wasted their life...do you think you've made a difference in the world? Maybe to the 18 month old child you just left without a father?...I hope you have a few years to reflect on your misery on death row before the government slips that long needle into your pathetic, deserving arm...and you end up where you belong...piss on you.
by this thing here
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 10:00 AM
here is a posting and comments from the DC IMC newswire:

>IMC-er turns dangerous rhetoric into murderous deed?
by KCBS listener 12:04pm Tue Nov 26 '02 (Modified on 12:36pm Tue Nov 26 '02)


Say it isn't so, SF-IMC -- is the Andrew McCrae post genuine?

I just heard on News Radio 740 (KCBS) that a young man was arrested for the murder off a police officer after posting a confession to a web site.

Is this the real deal? Is this the young man and the web site referred to in the news report?

If so, who alerted the authorities to this post? Was it a member of the SF-IMC staff, a concerned reader, or an officer on "web patrol"?

Lastly, how bitterly ironic to have the corporate media scoop the IMC network over the arrest by an IMC poster (perhaps are there legal reasons for the "no comment" by SF-IMC?)

http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/11/1545326_co...<

add your own comments



>So You're the one spamming all the lists
by Fact Checker 12:11pm Tue Nov 26 '02



With a story that you have no sources on, about an alleged murder of a police officer, not reported on by ANYBODY else.
Hmmmmm.... What's your real agenda?<


>could be true...
by read the paper 12:36pm Tue Nov 26 '02



a police officer was killed in red bluff while refueling his patrol car in the middle of the night,and was found shot in the head next to his car.

check out

http://www.redbluffdaily.com

or do a little web search. i have no info that anyone was arrested.<

who's playing the game here? i don't know who's being serious, or who's spamming...


by Mr Whiz
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 10:01 AM
I think you got some major problems that you need help with.
by Mr Whiz
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 10:17 AM
Your a freak for what you did and I hope you burn in hell.
I mean what kind of punk would kill a loving man and loving father. I live in Red bluff and I can't wait to see what happens to when you get to red bluff
by .
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 10:17 AM
Andrew McCrae was arrested in New Hampshire for the murder of officer David Mobilio.

Story link:

http://www.sacbee.com/content/news/story/5372486p-6360638c.html
by Poster
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 10:18 AM
This story is indeed real. Andrew McCrae is currently cornered in a hotel in New Hampshire (if he has not been arrested yet). This is truly a disturbing story here.

http://www.ctnow.com/news/custom/newsat3/hc-policeap1126,0,4806149.story?coll=hc-headlines-newsat3
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2002/11/26/state1024EST0049.DTL
by Daryle Lamont Jenkins
(subverter [at] onepeoplesproject.com) Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 10:25 AM
Personally, I think killing of cops is cool

Daryle
by Pissed Off
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 10:27 AM

Fuck The Police

The police can harrass people, break down doors and kill people and get away with it. As far as I'm concerned they can all go to hell. I would not go out and shoot them but I will not lose any sleep when they are killed. They know the risks. I have actually heard a police officer who was very drunk in a bar say he could drive home because he has the "BRASS PASS". Then if he would have crashed and killed someone he would have gotten away with it. What happend to law inforcement being held to higher standards.

Fuck The Police

by abc
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 10:29 AM
Hey FBI, save yourself some time and arrest "Nessie" at SF-IMC while your at it. Read some of the stuff he's written if you haven't already. Trust me, he'll be the next one to pull the trigger.
by .......
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 11:39 AM
So Nessie, is this more of that "black propaganda" that you're always spouting off about?
by Christine
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 12:05 PM
I don't know where to begin. I Live in Red Bluff, CA and personall knew Officer Mobilio. He was a very kind man and worked with the Elementary Schools DARE programs. He was married and had a 19 month old son. How can any one human being think that he can play GOD!!!????????? What gives you the right to just decide that someone innocent needs to die so you can bullshit about something you don't even know. Your Corporation will do you no good, it isn't a debt......ITS MURDER!!!!!!
by California Girl
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 12:05 PM
Yes, the idiot really did kill a cop. Then the idiot posts it online to get caught. Sad, because this moron SOUNDS like he has good thoughts and ideas that are right on the money. It's sad to waste a good brain with stupidity . I live where he killed the cop. I find no justification for ending a life that had SHIT to do with this cause. The man had a family. Friends. And was ONLY IN HIS EARLY 30s. What a stupid thing to do Andy (though you can't read this, as you will be on death row soon I am SURE). Stupid phuk. What a waste of a God given ability to speak eloquently and to convey BRIGHT ideas ... in such a senseless and irresponsible way. Sad indeed.
by Mike
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 12:05 PM
What a poor excuse for a man. For a person for that matter. Gutless. Heartless. Thoughtless. Scumbag!
by Mike
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 12:11 PM
What a poor excuse for a man. For a person for that matter. Gutless. Heartless. Thoughtless. Scumbag!
by California Girl
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 12:11 PM
Yes, the idiot really did kill a cop. Then the idiot posts it online to get caught. Sad, because this moron SOUNDS like he has good thoughts and ideas that are right on the money. It's sad to waste a good brain with stupidity . I live where he killed the cop. I find no justification for ending a life that had SHIT to do with this cause. The man had a family. Friends. And was ONLY IN HIS EARLY 30s. What a stupid thing to do Andy (though you can't read this, as you will be on death row soon I am SURE). Stupid phuk. What a waste of a God given ability to speak eloquently and to convey BRIGHT ideas ... in such a senseless and irresponsible way. Sad indeed.
by Chris Stevens
(s3wsteve [at] rbuhsd.k12.ca.us) Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 12:16 PM
look what you caused you waste of freakin skin!!! You have hurt someone that was doing their job to protect us and you shall die!!!! You're a disgrace to the human race.
by Brooke, Natasha, Kristi
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 12:16 PM
As Red Bluff High students,

Dont you know Red Bluff people carry guns
you better watch your ass when you come to Red Bluff
and dont even worry about the death penalty becasue you will be dead before you even go to court if you even have the chance to go and thats not a threat its a PROMISE!!!!
by gkd
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 12:31 PM
The Associated Press contacted SF Indymedia to find out about this kid who killed a cop in Red Bluff. But I had some questions of my own about the blood on AP's hands.

Clay Haswell Speaks (or not) on Associated Press Priorities in San Francisco
by gkd/sf-imc • Tuesday November 26, 2002 at 12:28 PM
http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/11/1545491.php


by Chuck
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 12:32 PM
This poor asshole who killed the Red Bluff officer is obviously a victim of the enviro movement misinformation network. Police Officers are very foregiving people.
by Mahony
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 12:33 PM
God bless Everyone you say? All but the innocent ones you shoot. Never has anyone got their point across by killing people. You are a common terrorist.
by Trophyrebellion
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 12:43 PM
How interesting. Of course murder is wrong. Of course justice shall be served? But will his message be heard? I only hope it changes the mind of one person. An innocent is killed, do we see the connection "andy" was talking about? Can we see past this "vile act" for just one second? "An eye for an eye, and the world goes blind."
Hopefully this "Andy" realizes he is perpetuating such an ideal, however, must he "fry" for what he "supposedly did?" He's only a suspect, can we not forget this? INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY and yet we are all putting him in the chair already. Take a step back, re-read what he wrote, and make some connections. For our own sakes....
by Laura Ledesma
(LrLdsm [at] hotmail.com) Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 12:52 PM
I hope I have the day off on the day you are brought back to Red Bluff. I want to be in that angry mob. My husband ran into you at the fairgrounds and has been in fear for his life since the incident. You are spineless. What about his wife and child? He has a baby for God's sake. He was a DARE officer and the kids all knew him, so you've scarred innocent children as well as Dave's family and the community. You will rot in hell.
by Bubba
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 12:53 PM
This police officer you killed idiot was a peacful loving human, out on the streets protecting us from trash like you! If you ever get a chance to visit us in Red Bluff , I would love to take you to the annual bull sale. There, me and the good ole boys could show you what we think of corporate cop killers. No never mind! You just deserve to fry slowly in the electric chair.
by cp
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 1:21 PM
He's insane. imc provides a platform for people of all stripes until the editing crew gets around to deleting the spam, so he is not affiliated with sf.indymedia.

There is a small editing crew and often they only get around to removing stuff that breaks the stated policy maybe twice a day. They work behind computer firewalls at work and can't spend all day removing stuff.
by WTF
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 1:21 PM
"..out on the streets protecting us from trash like you!"

Protecting you? That's a laugh.....

THE POLICE ARE NOT OBLIGATED TO PROTECT ANY INDIVIDUAL PERSON FROM HARM

This section serves to illuminate the existence of bad Police policy, anti-rights legislation, a domestic threat, and poor judicial remedy. The following true story is unacceptable, intolerable, and must be prevented from re-occurring ...

"Ruth Brunell called the police on 20 different occasions to beg for protection from her husband. He was arrested only one time. One evening Mr. Brunell telephoned his wife and told her he was coming over to kill her. When she called the police, they refused her request that they come to protect her. They told her to call back when he got there. Mr. Brunell stabbed his wife to death before she could call the police to tell them he was there. The court held that the San Jose police were not liable for ignoring Mrs. Brunell's pleas for help. Hartzler v. City of San Jose, (1975) 46 Cal.App. 3d 6. The year after winning the Hartzler case, the San Jose government appointed Joseph McNamara Police Chief. Chief McNamara has since become the leading police spokesman for Handgun Control, Inc. (HCI)." Excerpt from "The Law Abiding Individual and Personal Protection", by John Brophy. (Forward and emphasis added)

This is an appropriate time to point out that Chief Joe McNamara had a firm policy not to issue permits to Carry Concealed Weapons (CCW) to non-law enforcement officers, with exception shown through a permit he allegedly issued to his daughter. Chief McNamara is also alleged to have kept an automatic submachine gun in the trunk of his vehicle. Apparently he felt he needed it, but not anyone else. Does anyone else smell the characteristic stench of hypocrisy?

Mr. Brophy proceeds to provide substantial case-study to show similar judgments in other jurisdictions throughout the United States:
Bowers v. DeVito, (1982) 686 F.2d 616. (No federal constitutional requirements that police provide protection.)
Calgorides v. Mobile, (1985) 475 So.2d 560.
Davidson v. Westminister, (1982) 32 Cal.3d 197, 185 Cal.Rep. 252.
Stone v. State, (1980) 106 Cal.App. 3d 924, 165 Cal.Rep. 339.
Morgan v. District of Columbia, (1983) 468 A.2d 1306.
Warren v. District of Columbia, (1983) 444 A.2d 1.
Sapp v. Tallahassee, (1977) 348 So.2d 363, cert. denied 354 So.2d 985.
Keane v. Chicago, (1968) 98 ILL.App.2d 460, 240 N.E.2d 321.
Jamison v. Chicago, (1977) 48 ILL.App.3d 567.
Simpson's Food Fair v. Evansville, 272 N.E.2d 871.
Silver v. Minneapolis, (1969) 170 N.W.2d 206.
Wuetrich v. Delia, (1978) 155 N.J.Super. 324, 382 A.2d 929.
Chapman v. Philadelphia, (1981) 290 Pa.Super. 281, 434 A.2d 753.
Morris v. Musser, (1984) 84 Pa.Cmwth. 170, 478 A.2d 937.
Weiner v. Metropolitan Authority, and Shernov v. New York Transit Authority, (1982) 55 N.Y. 2d 175, 948 N.Y.S. 141.
DeShaney v. Winnebago County Social Services, 489 U.S. 189, 196, 197 (1989).

"The law is abundantly clear. Police have no duty to protect an individual from harm ... Each person is responsible for their own safety and protection from criminal harm, and for the safety and protection of their dependents." - John Brophy

But doesn't just about every Law Enforcement Agency's "Mission Statement" include the words "... to serve and protect ...." ? So then protect what? Obviously it isn't the people . . .

by Roswell
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 1:24 PM
Way to go. I couldn't have said it better! Wake up people - this is reality - this is true. Those who dont believe it are blinded by the topics the post points out. There are countless other stories buried in the country just like this. There are lots of other people who feel the same way - I do! I shared this at work - we have to agree that he makes a valid point.
by Sharon
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 1:24 PM
You truly are an idiot! I grew up in the 60's in S.F. during Haigh Ashbury, Berkeley, etc. You need to face reality. Take a chill pill. Too bad so sad because now your reality is prison. Too bad you didn't use your intelligence in a more constructive way. Destroying lives puts you right up there with terrorists. Bubba will take care of you.
by Roswell
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 1:24 PM
Way to go. I couldn't have said it better! Wake up people - this is reality - this is true. Those who dont believe it are blinded by the topics the post points out. There are countless other stories buried in the country just like this. there are lots of other people who feel the same way - I do! I shared this at work - we have to agree that he makes a valid point.
by WTF
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 1:24 PM
"...out on the streets protecting us from trash like you!"

Protecting who?

THE POLICE ARE NOT OBLIGATED TO PROTECT ANY INDIVIDUAL PERSON FROM HARM

Bowers v. DeVito, (1982) 686 F.2d 616. (No federal constitutional requirements that police provide protection.)
Calgorides v. Mobile, (1985) 475 So.2d 560.
Davidson v. Westminister, (1982) 32 Cal.3d 197, 185 Cal.Rep. 252.
Stone v. State, (1980) 106 Cal.App. 3d 924, 165 Cal.Rep. 339.
Morgan v. District of Columbia, (1983) 468 A.2d 1306.
Warren v. District of Columbia, (1983) 444 A.2d 1.
Sapp v. Tallahassee, (1977) 348 So.2d 363, cert. denied 354 So.2d 985.
Keane v. Chicago, (1968) 98 ILL.App.2d 460, 240 N.E.2d 321.
Jamison v. Chicago, (1977) 48 ILL.App.3d 567.
Simpson's Food Fair v. Evansville, 272 N.E.2d 871.
Silver v. Minneapolis, (1969) 170 N.W.2d 206.
Wuetrich v. Delia, (1978) 155 N.J.Super. 324, 382 A.2d 929.
Chapman v. Philadelphia, (1981) 290 Pa.Super. 281, 434 A.2d 753.
Morris v. Musser, (1984) 84 Pa.Cmwth. 170, 478 A.2d 937.
Weiner v. Metropolitan Authority, and Shernov v. New York Transit Authority, (1982) 55 N.Y. 2d 175, 948 N.Y.S. 141.
DeShaney v. Winnebago County Social Services, 489 U.S. 189, 196, 197 (1989).

"The law is abundantly clear. Police have no duty to protect an individual from harm ... Each person is responsible for their own safety and protection from criminal harm, and for the safety and protection of their dependents." - John Brophy

But doesn't just about every Law Enforcement Agency's "Mission Statement" include the words "... to serve and protect ...." ? So then protect what? Obviously it isn't the people . . .

"All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others..."
by Sharon
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 1:24 PM
You truly are an idiot! I grew up in the 60's in S.F. during Haigh Ashbury, Berkeley, etc. You need to face reality. Take a chill pill. Too bad so sad because now your reality is prison. Too bad you didn't use your intelligence in a more constructive way. Destroying lives puts you right up there with terrorists. Bubba will take care of you.
by Sharon
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 1:24 PM
You truly are an idiot! I grew up in the 60's in S.F. during Haigh Ashbury, Berkeley, etc. You need to face reality. Take a chill pill. Too bad so sad because now your reality is prison. Too bad you didn't use your intelligence in a more constructive way. Destroying lives puts you right up there with terrorists. Bubba will take care of you.
by WTF
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 1:32 PM
"...out on the streets protecting us from trash like you!"

Protecting who?

THE POLICE ARE NOT OBLIGATED TO PROTECT ANY INDIVIDUAL PERSON FROM HARM

Bowers v. DeVito, (1982) 686 F.2d 616. (No federal constitutional requirements that police provide protection.)
Calgorides v. Mobile, (1985) 475 So.2d 560.
Davidson v. Westminister, (1982) 32 Cal.3d 197, 185 Cal.Rep. 252.
Stone v. State, (1980) 106 Cal.App. 3d 924, 165 Cal.Rep. 339.
Morgan v. District of Columbia, (1983) 468 A.2d 1306.
Warren v. District of Columbia, (1983) 444 A.2d 1.
Sapp v. Tallahassee, (1977) 348 So.2d 363, cert. denied 354 So.2d 985.
Keane v. Chicago, (1968) 98 ILL.App.2d 460, 240 N.E.2d 321.
Jamison v. Chicago, (1977) 48 ILL.App.3d 567.
Simpson's Food Fair v. Evansville, 272 N.E.2d 871.
Silver v. Minneapolis, (1969) 170 N.W.2d 206.
Wuetrich v. Delia, (1978) 155 N.J.Super. 324, 382 A.2d 929.
Chapman v. Philadelphia, (1981) 290 Pa.Super. 281, 434 A.2d 753.
Morris v. Musser, (1984) 84 Pa.Cmwth. 170, 478 A.2d 937.
Weiner v. Metropolitan Authority, and Shernov v. New York Transit Authority, (1982) 55 N.Y. 2d 175, 948 N.Y.S. 141.
DeShaney v. Winnebago County Social Services, 489 U.S. 189, 196, 197 (1989).

"The law is abundantly clear. Police have no duty to protect an individual from harm ... Each person is responsible for their own safety and protection from criminal harm, and for the safety and protection of their dependents." - John Brophy

But doesn't just about every Law Enforcement Agency's "Mission Statement" include the words "... to serve and protect ...." ? So then protect what? Obviously it isn't the people . . .

"All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others..."
by Don
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 1:43 PM
Your, not worth the powder it takes to blow you to hell !!!
p.s. hope i'm on the jury. cottonwood,ca.Don.
by Terry Lane
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 2:01 PM
What happened to Dave Mobilio is evil. I call him Dave Mobilio instead of Officer Mobilio because we need to remember him as a fellow human being, with people that loved and needed him. The problem with the world today is not just what corporations do. The problem is that there are many evil people that for some insane reason think they have a right to hurt and even murder other people. We all have a right to live in peace, and we need to teach our children that. Forget religion, money, and politics. What happened to love?
by just wondering
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 2:05 PM
Does that include Iraqis?
by jen
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 2:06 PM
You should try to come up with current data and stats to back up your argument. First, the incident in San Jose occurred in the 70's. Since then, the legislature has enacted stricter laws covering domestic violence. If that incident were to occur today, it would be handled quite differently. You must remember that law enforcement is bound by the laws that are in place. There are times that they take no action, not because they don't want to, but because the laws don't allow them to. Also, all of the cases you listed, on average, are over twenty years old. Welcome to the new millennium. Next time, come to the plate with current information.
by J. Dahlquist
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 2:47 PM
IMC provide a place for the wannabes to act out their fantasies of being reporters and somehow important. At least the mass media tries to vette their sources, but IMC's just go with what every junk that comes up.

McCrae may....or may not....be the murderer of David Mobillo. Either way, McCrae is a pathetic person. If he is the murderer, he may get his New Hampshire wish -- Live Free or Die! If he just capitalized on the murder, he did it for his own ego.

His diatribe reminds of the Uni-Bomber -- in its simplistic and myopic view of the world.

If McCrae did murder the officer, he didn't do it for the sake of the world, he did it because he is twisted and has no principles or integrity.

McCrae's declaration is typical of a small group of demented persons who can justify any act by blaming society.

The murderer of Officer Mobillo is probably just like the Beltway Sniper(s) -- cold, callous killer(s) purposely killing innocent persons in cold-blood. Matters not if it was for money or for politics, it still is a senseless act by someone who has no concerns for others.

It will be interesting how this turns out.

Isn't anarchy wonderful?
by VAN
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 2:58 PM
Congratulations - You've now graduated from useful idiot to cop killer! I've been a police officer for 13 years. In that time I've been shot at, punched, kicked and verbally assaulted. I've also saved more than a few lives, interrupted countless crimes of violence, and taken countless violent criminals off the street. I've had three good friends killed in the line of duty doing the same job I do . . .yet I continue to serve my community proudly because I BELIEVE IN WHAT I'M DOING!! By the way, I'm not rich, priveleged or incorporated. You will undoubtedly be afforded the benefit of a well-educated, highly paid attorney (free of charge), endless appeals and accolades from other useful idiots like yourself. It's ironic, the same "police state tactics" you rail against will now afford you rights and priveleges you saw fit to deprive Officer Mobilio of when you gunned him down. I pray that in passing judgement on you, Mr. McCrae, that the courts see fit to "dispense with all sentimentality".
by Adult Supervisor
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 3:08 PM
The larger question, of course, would be whether Indymedia acts as an incubator for someone like this.

Does he find reinforcement here for his 'anti-authority vews,' and does he feel encouraged and emboldened by what he considers 'his allies?"

Consider the fact that we do see a lot of seemingly angry posts here, with phrases like 'fuck the cops' being common rhetoric.

Anger, insolence, and reactionary behavior. Monkey see - monkey do.
by LETAPU
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 3:19 PM
WE HAVE A MAN WHO IS TWISTED IN EVERY POSSIBLE WAY. MAYBE IN A DIFFERENT LIFE TIME THIS WOULD BE SOMETHING I WOULD BELIEVE IN. I AM NOT CLOSED MINDED TO HIS THEORY. IF MCRAE REALLY BELIEVED IN THIS, THAN WHY USE VIOLENCE TO CONDEM YOUR BELIEF. STRONG WORDS COULD OF BEEN ENOUGH. PEOPLE DO LISTEN. FOR MCRAE TO DECIDE THAT COP'S DESTINY, HAS NO PLACE HERE ON EARTH. NOR IN PARADISE. MCRAE, MENTIONED THAT RICH PEOPLE ARE GETTING RICHER AND WE ARE PAYING FOR IT. WELL DID YOU EVER THINK THAT THE OFFICER YOU KILLED, WAS ONE OF THE POOR PEOPLE JUST TRYING TO MAKE A LIVING FOR HIM AND HIS FAMILY. ANY PUNISHMENT YOU HAVE COMING TO YOU HERE IN THIS LIFE TIME. HAS NOTHING COMPARE TO WHAT THE LORD HAS INSTALL FOR YOU.
by LETAPU
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 3:19 PM
WE HAVE A MAN WHO IS TWISTED IN EVERY POSSIBLE WAY. MAYBE IN A DIFFERENT LIFE TIME THIS WOULD BE SOMETHING I WOULD BELIEVE IN. I AM NOT CLOSED MINDED TO HIS THEORY. IF MCRAE REALLY BELIEVED IN THIS, THAN WHY USE VIOLENCE TO CONDEM YOUR BELIEF. STRONG WORDS COULD OF BEEN ENOUGH. PEOPLE DO LISTEN. FOR MCRAE TO DECIDE THAT COP'S DESTINY, HAS NO PLACE HERE ON EARTH. NOR IN PARADISE. MCRAE, MENTIONED THAT RICH PEOPLE ARE GETTING RICHER AND WE ARE PAYING FOR IT. WELL DID YOU EVER THINK THAT THE OFFICER YOU KILLED, WAS ONE OF THE POOR PEOPLE JUST TRYING TO MAKE A LIVING FOR HIM AND HIS FAMILY. ANY PUNISHMENT YOU HAVE COMING TO YOU HERE IN THIS LIFE TIME. HAS NOTHING COMPARE TO WHAT THE LORD HAS INSTALL FOR YOU.
by Maarten Schenk
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 3:23 PM
Yes it includes Iraqi people... that's why Saddam needs to be shot, you idiot!
by butterfly
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 3:28 PM
you poor pathetic scumbag..i bet your mommy and daddy molested you as a child, and your daddy made you do naughty things to him. your parents hated you because you were ugly, dumb, and a loser. you were only good for one thing, and that was getting your dad off every night. no one could ever be fond of you. after seeing a picture of you, i realized you are ugly on the outside too. you will die for what you did to Dave. I have lived in red bluff for 27 years and someone here will kill you before the court system gets to you. you have this cowardly web page because you know no one will listen to you. you left linda and luke without there loved one. what would you know about LOVE. no one in their right mind would give you the time of day. when you are killed do you think anyone will honestly care. i hardly think so. you are waste.
by @
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 3:38 PM
thats what the boys will do to ya, if they get their hands on you when you back to Red Bluff!
by sam
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 3:41 PM
You made a Widow and a Orphan for a sick reason.
Shame on you !
I bet You have a Arafat and Hitler poster in your room or jail cell.
Anyways, I hope they miss your vien a few times.
Allah Bless You.
by How Ironic
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 3:44 PM
I WONDER WHY THE FUCKING MEDIA ISNT TALKING ABOUT THESE KILLERS --- MAYBE BECAUSE THEY ARE FUCKING COPS?????

Los Angles County Dist. Atty. Steve Cooley announced Monday that dozens of cases against officers implicated in the LAPD (news - web sites)'s Rampart Division scandal would not result in criminal prosecution.

Cooley said he made the decision based on his review of 82 Rampart-related cases that detectives submitted to prosecutors.

The district attorney's office decided to not prosecute the cases because of insufficient evidence and because the statute of limitations had expired. Further, many of the cases involved the two main players in the scandal -- Rafael Perez and Nino Durden -- who had entered into plea bargains that protect them from further prosecution.

by troy prouty*
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 3:56 PM
What now has happened is two lives are lost and many people's shattered. If you take things to extremes, you will go crazy.

There could have been something more for Andy, but not anymore, because andy became to inflamed with the current events and knew only violence in his life to solve conflicts of this magnitude.

One of the most needed, least known skills in the world today is conflict resolution. We don’t learn about conflict resolution in school, at home, in the media, or on the streets. We don’t learn it at all, most of us. So we act on impulse, lapsing into fight or flight, turning conflict into combat, perpetuating cycles of misunderstanding and violence in all our interactions, from the interpersonal to the international.

Harsh words and weapons
Bring violence and pain.
The wise leader chooses combat
Only as a last resort.

For in combat even victory
Is no cause for joy.
To gloat in victory
Means delight in destroying others.
In destroying others,
We destroy ourselves.

We are all part of something larger than ourselves, that everything and everyone is intrinsically related. Every violent act constitutes a breakdown of civilization, a violation of the order that unites us all. Working with natural patterns, the leader upholds a new way of resolving conflict, affirming a spirit of partnership and building a foundation of greater understanding.

Conflict has led to division and discord because two common misperceptions have trapped us in fight –or-flight reactions. We overgenalize, seeing whoever disagrees with us as the enemy. In hostile reductionism, we narrow our vision, reducing the richness of human experience to that one thing on which we disagree and then we fight over it. Or we flee from conflict feeling shame and disagreeing. Denying our own concerns, we give in to avoid confrontation. Never communicating our ness, we settle for appeasement and superficial solutions. Either response is dualistic.

Conflict becomes the means for greater understanding –of one another and ourselves. It can create a wall to divide us or a bridge to unite us. The difference lies in how we respond to it.

In the western world, we habitually fall into the logical fallacy of the false dilemma, seeing life either-or win or lose, right or wrong, all or nothing, us or them.

Dualism limits our options and makes us see differences as threatening. Instead of working together to discover solutions to problems, we waste time blaming others. Fixated on the problem, we cannot see beyond it.
by Did you do it?
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 4:00 PM
Dear Andy,

I wonder about you. You seem to be fairly intelligent, or is just noise you spout to feel self important? In what ways do your admitted actions support your doctrine or even coincide with your beliefs? Are you misguided or just misunderstood? Either way, for as much research as you have labored through, you have failed to consider one very important point. If you truly incorporated yourself, are you even a human being anymore? I offer that you are not, never were, and are in fact the corporation which you so vehemenlty despise. California law is not forgiving.

PS: Corporations are not protected by civil rights and unlike citizens, CAN BE DISOLVED.

by anonymous tag closer
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 4:24 PM

by Steve
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 4:29 PM
You are suffering with paranoid schizophrenia. Please end your pain and kill yourself.
by norman bradley
(n.a.2 [at] specialoperations.com) Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 4:32 PM
this man has ruined a young family's life, saddened a town ,and it hasn't done one thing except satisfy his own selfish delusions. he thinks killing that police officer is going to send a message and change the world. he should go straight to death row!
by J. Dahlquist
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 4:38 PM
As far as the LA officers and the dismissal of charges, this is the real world and not a fantasy world that IMCers live in. The charges were mostly brought by one former officer who got caught breaking the law. BTW, he was caught and convicted due to the investigation of the LAPD Internal Affairs department. But, he made out that all the cops were on the take, but then he was caught lying, changing his story, etc.

The bottom line was that LAPD was not nearly as "dirty" as it was presented in the newspapers. BTW, check out the Frontline investigation on these cases and you will be shocked on what they uncovered about the witch hunt that went on in an attempt to build cases.

by Radical Left
(.) Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 4:44 PM
Why'd you do that? The guy was just trying to earn a living, raise a family. You're not helping much doing this shit.
by Radical Left
(.) Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 4:46 PM
Why'd you do that? The guy was just trying to earn a living, raise a family. You're not helping much doing this shit.
by James
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 4:47 PM
How pathetic. Killing a police officer to make a point! I'm sure you had parents. At least you had the chance to know them. You never gave Officer Mobilio's son that RIGHT.

Why was it that you shot him in the back, then once in the back of the head? Are you not man enough to look a true man in the eye. I'm sure you know, that if you would have faced Officer Mobilio face to face, you would be the loser.

Why didn't you resist your arrest? Aren't you man enough to fight for what you believe in. Or was it that you had to change your shorts when you saw that many Police officers IN FRONT OF YOU!

Being a Police Officer myself, I know that I am not any better than the person next to me. I chose this job. Its rewarding to me. I like arresting people that are VIOLATING the rights of others. We as HUMANS, have the right to live without fear of wackos like yourself. To kill a Police Officer to protest the American Goverment and American Corporations makes absolutely no sense at all.

Do you think that I like what goes on in Politics? Not at all. But im not going to kill an innocent human to protest. I, unlike yourself, am a lot smarter than that!
Its called voting. But then again, you seem to believe that our Democracy is unfair.

You are not God, you do not decide who shall live or die. You are a pathetic form of life who deserves what you have coming to you. I also worked in the California Prison system and let me tell you, a 23 year old white male in prison has a name. and its called Ben Dover!

James

by Mike Winslow
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 5:04 PM
If only this were true Mr. Ironic...
You and your twisted cohort Mccrae would no longer be able to express your opinions...you would be dead
by Tim
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 5:22 PM
40 years ago Singapore, Taiwan, Hong Kong, and South Korea were among the poorest nations in the world. Likewise, Bangladesh, Nigeria, and Loas.

Today, Singapore, Taiwan, Hong Kong, and South Korea are among the wealthiest nations in the world. Bangladesh, Nigeria, and Loas remain among the poorest.

Why? Because Singapore, Taiwan, Hong Kong, and South Korea did something to lift themselves up from third world poverty, something these other nations failed to do.

Anyone who is sincerely interested in how the third world countries today can lift themselves up from poverty will want to know what these successful nations did differently.

What did the successful countries do? Pretty much the exact opposite of what murder-buy suggests.
by Tim
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 5:22 PM
40 years ago Singapore, Taiwan, Hong Kong, and South Korea were among the poorest nations in the world. Likewise, Bangladesh, Nigeria, and Loas.

Today, Singapore, Taiwan, Hong Kong, and South Korea are among the wealthiest nations in the world. Bangladesh, Nigeria, and Loas remain among the poorest.

Why? Because Singapore, Taiwan, Hong Kong, and South Korea did something to lift themselves up from third world poverty, something these other nations failed to do.

Anyone who is sincerely interested in how the third world countries today can lift themselves up from poverty will want to know what these successful nations did differently.

What did the successful countries do? Pretty much the exact opposite of what murder-boy suggests.
by Mike
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 5:26 PM
You should have your legs sawed off one inch at a time. You are a dumb fuck .
by Somebody with a brain
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 5:31 PM
Every idea that this terrorist advocates is/was/will be a failure. Everybody that agrees with him should get the phuck out. Move to Europe so that your destructive ideas don't ruin our country.
by Michelle
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 5:33 PM
After reading through all of these posts and finding out that Andy WAS serious and did indeed take a life...I am flabbergasted and deeply sadenned.

While reading Andy's post I found myself agreeing with mostly everything he said. Being an anti-war activist and environmentalist, his writing struck a chord with me. I never stopped to think that he could possibly be serious about killing a cop.

What a waste of insight. He could have taken all of his ideas and insight and done something productive and meaningful. Hell, he seemed to be a good writer...he could have used the power of the pen instead of the power of the gun. Obviously, despite all of his interesting veiws the man is a delusional psychopath. Looking at the entire situation, I would have to say to Andy that his writing was nothing but intellectual vomit. He has taken a human life. He is shit in my book.

What good could possibly come out of murdering someone? What was this guy thinking? Killing a cop is not going to change the world. All you have done Andy, is ruined your life and the lives of the many people who loved that man.

I am embarassed to be an activist and seeker of peace if this is the kind of shit that goes on in our name.

I am now speechless.
by Dodie
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 5:39 PM
I too live in Red Bluff Officer Mobilio was my sons Dare teacher. We all love you Officer Dave! And this punk ass bitch (excuse me) will pay for this. You will burn in hell!!!!!!!!
by john
(thebigghit [at] yahoo.com) Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 5:41 PM
Andy-
I am from Red Bluff,
you think you actually changed the world for the better. you think that you cause was worth the life of a loving husband , father and friend.
He was a great man and because of you he is no longer here to make the world better. How can you justify killing a father who never had the chance to see his children grow, or to the children that will never see there father again thanks to your stupid mission.
I would think that a person with military experiance would have respect for a peace officer who puts his life on the line everyday to protect us from the scum in our town.-like you
you are an idiot after all that writting you don't relize that people like you make our taxes go up because we have to pay for you to go to prison, we have to pay the government to up security to protect us from people like you. and now we are going to have to pay for you to die.
-YOU DIDN'T HELP US YOU JUST RAISED OUR TAXES YOU IDIOT.
you don't deserve to live but you don't deserve the luxury to die either. i hope you suffer.
GOD said "let vengence be mine."
by Peacey
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 5:43 PM
I agree that this a**hole should pay for his crime, but I have read so many posts that say "burn in hell". Come on people, there is no such thing as hell. And here's a suprise for all of you: Santa Claus is not real!

by A&A All The Way
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 5:45 PM
You are a lousy no good waist of freakin' time and good air. I knew this wonderful man. He was terrific. What kind of garbage eatin trailer trash would be hiding in the shadow and then kill a helpless person. When shot from behind that shows a coward like you has done it and then to top it all off you go and post on the freakin' internet. Have fun on deathrow and HAPPY HUMPING!!!!!!!!!!!
by good for the gander
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 5:45 PM
Why don't you cite current caselaw to support your position?
by cp
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 5:47 PM
No... don't act like he's representative of people who share demographic characteristics, or some remote political views. That would be faulty logic because you could eventually attach him to millions.

The thing is, met or encountered enough schizophrenic people to strongly believe that that is what is afflicting this guy. Sometimes you can speak with someone who has medically treated schizophrenia and not notice that they have it at all, without being told. And for untreated schizophrenia, there is quite a range of behavior. Often they can seem to be 90% coherent, and to be making some sense in what they're saying, but then only if you step back and analyze what they're saying broadly, you notice that some of what they are saying is delusional, or they're making totally unsupported connections. Some schizophrenics are totally nondangerous, and are very passive, and more at risk of being manipulated by others. I have a schizophrenic neighbor who sends someone in my house threatening letters nearly every week, but he always stops short of violence - the letters have the same rambling self-righteous character as the McCraw letter where he accuses my housemate of being a child molester and a drug dealer and all sorts of other things. Another schizophrenic who used to perpetually hang around a cafe I worked at was very aware of environmentalism and recycling, and he would sit there and monitor the recycling habits of people at the cafe and correct their behavior. At first glance he would seem to be just a high anxiety normal person, but if you would notice connections he draws, like assuming a police car going by was monitoring us, it was clear he was totally unmedicated.
The rambling nature of the confession at the beginning of this thread plus the odd connections he draws, plus several instances of delusion seem to be indicative of paranoid schizophrenia. Schizophrenics can be very intelligent.
by LOL
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 5:57 PM
Shut up stupid!
by anonymous
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 6:23 PM
you guys all talk about how violence isnt the answer, but you then go and talk about how "andy" should be killed? its all a bunch of bullshit! i realize this is a sad incident that shouldnt have happened and "andy" was in the wrong, dont get me wrong, im not heartless or anything but come on now......
by GG Allin
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 6:35 PM
So the guy was a DARE officer. That makes him a hero in the communities eyes? Come on... Essentially this guy did what tons of folks wish they had the guts to do every day. People all cry "killing someone won't do any good." Maybe that's exactly what needs to be done. Just start by whacking :0) the right people. If you are going to go out in a blaze of glory or such, why not find someone more important then a dirtbag cop. Why not go for some of the big guys that are making things worse for us all. Printing publications and writting news articles is great! But don't take away from those that have the guts to act out on it all. Otherwise it's jsut words on a screen and nothing more.

If revolution isn't your cup of tea, who want's to spend their life in jail, then try doing something like community building. Follow the link above to learn more.
Revolution, not Reaction!

Regards-

GG
by GG Allin
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 6:35 PM
So the guy was a DARE officer. That makes him a hero in the communities eyes? Come on... Essentially this guy did what tons of folks wish they had the guts to do every day. People all cry "killing someone won't do any good." Maybe that's exactly what needs to be done. Just start by whacking :0) the right people. If you are going to go out in a blaze of glory or such, why not find someone more important then a dirtbag cop. Why not go for some of the big guys that are making things worse for us all. Printing publications and writting news articles is great! But don't take away from those that have the guts to act out on it all. Otherwise it's jsut words on a screen and nothing more.

If revolution isn't your cup of tea, who want's to spend their life in jail, then try doing something like community building. Follow the link above to learn more.
Revolution, not Reaction!

Regards-

GG
by 187
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 7:27 PM
Being a relitive of a peace officer. I know that there are 'good' & 'bad' cops. The question is this. Why him? He had a family and a future.

You are a sick person, and you dont even deserve to go to hell. I think you should come to my house whiel I rip off your fucking testicles and burn your throat with acid. You are a sick fucking indvidual. Going to hell for you would be an honor. YOU are the scum. And I suggest that you have a pretty good fucking lawyer.

God doesnt now the hate that I feal for you. You Fucking make the hair on my back stand up!
by K.O. Buck
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 7:35 PM
I heard Bubba and his "good old boys" are nothing more than a bunch of hayseeds who like having sex with their livestock. Bubba, isn't it true that when you were a kid you got kicked in the head by a mule?
by anonymous
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 7:36 PM
Just a thought . . . the content of the message is not necessarily invalidated by the actions of the messenger.

I think murder for political purposes is wrong, whether you talk about shooting a working stiff in Red Bluff or invading Iraq to satisfy the President's feeble ego.

I also think that corporate irresponsibility really is a major problem that is not going to go away. But anyone else out there who is reading this and is thinking about "direct action" -- consider this carefully. Killing solves nothing. Carefully showing a capability, then NOT using it . . . that can wake people up and make them think. And if you break the law, you also lose its protections . . . keep it legal but keep it radical.
by Dodie Thompson-Zimmerman
(dodiezimmerman [at] webtv.net) Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 7:36 PM
In our little Northern California town of Red Bluff, CA , we live a simple life here. Not too much to worry about, we smile alot. I have lived in this town for 21 years. I moved here with my family at age 15 from the Bay Area town of Baypoint, which was then West Pittsburg. My Dad wanted me here away from the bull crap of the city. We didn't worry about the things we used to. Now I raise my children here. My oldest son Devin was in Officer Mobilio's DARE program, what a dedicated man. With all the news we listen to today, on that Monday morning, we heard of a killing in our town, the killing of an outstanding police officer. We are outraged! I would like to have the opportunity to be face to face with this scum that took our officer in such a brutal manner. I wish they would bind his hands, walk him down our Main st. and let the community have their way with him. There is not a court in this country that will be fair to him, let's punish him the way they did hudreds of years ago! A life sentence or even the death penalty is too good for him, I look forward to this piece of *#@# standing in front of the greatest judge of them all, Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! Vengence is mine sayith the Lord! And Mr. Andy scum You will feel the wrath of God upon you!!!! There is no way of death, painful enough for you, except the flames of hell uopn you!
by anonymous
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 7:36 PM
Just a thought . . . the content of the message is not necessarily invalidated by the actions of the messenger.

I think murder for political purposes is wrong, whether you talk about shooting a working stiff in Red Bluff or invading Iraq to satisfy the President's feeble ego.

I also think that corporate irresponsibility really is a major problem that is not going to go away. But anyone else out there who is reading this and is thinking about "direct action" -- consider this carefully. Killing solves nothing. Carefully showing a capability, then NOT using it . . . that can wake people up and make them think. And if you break the law, you also lose its protections . . . keep it legal but keep it radical.
by Dodie Thompson-Zimmerman
(dodiezimmerman [at] webtv.net) Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 7:36 PM
In our little Northern California town of Red Bluff, CA , we live a simple life here. Not too much to worry about, we smile alot. I have lived in this town for 21 years. I moved here with my family at age 15 from the Bay Area town of Baypoint, which was then West Pittsburg. My Dad wanted me here away from the bull crap of the city. We didn't worry about the things we used to. Now I raise my children here. My oldest son Devin was in Officer Mobilio's DARE program, what a dedicated man. With all the news we listen to today, on that Monday morning, we heard of a killing in our town, the killing of an outstanding police officer. We are outraged! I would like to have the opportunity to be face to face with this scum that took our officer in such a brutal manner. I wish they would bind his hands, walk him down our Main st. and let the community have their way with him. There is not a court in this country that will be fair to him, let's punish him the way they did hudreds of years ago! A life sentence or even the death penalty is too good for him, I look forward to this piece of *#@# standing in front of the greatest judge of them all, Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! Vengence is mine sayith the Lord! And Mr. Andy scum You will feel the wrath of God upon you!!!! There is no way of death, painful enough for you, except the flames of hell uopn you!
by anonymous
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 7:36 PM
Just a thought . . . the content of the message is not necessarily invalidated by the actions of the messenger.

I think murder for political purposes is wrong, whether you talk about shooting a working stiff in Red Bluff or invading Iraq to satisfy the President's feeble ego.

I also think that corporate irresponsibility really is a major problem that is not going to go away. But anyone else out there who is reading this and is thinking about "direct action" -- consider this carefully. Killing solves nothing. Carefully showing a capability, then NOT using it . . . that can wake people up and make them think. And if you break the law, you also lose its protections . . . keep it legal but keep it radical.
by Dodie Thompson-Zimmerman
(dodiezimmerman [at] webtv.net) Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 7:36 PM
In our little Northern California town of Red Bluff, CA , we live a simple life here. Not too much to worry about, we smile alot. I have lived in this town for 21 years. I moved here with my family at age 15 from the Bay Area town of Baypoint, which was then West Pittsburg. My Dad wanted me here away from the bull crap of the city. We didn't worry about the things we used to. Now I raise my children here. My oldest son Devin was in Officer Mobilio's DARE program, what a dedicated man. With all the news we listen to today, on that Monday morning, we heard of a killing in our town, the killing of an outstanding police officer. We are outraged! I would like to have the opportunity to be face to face with this scum that took our officer in such a brutal manner. I wish they would bind his hands, walk him down our Main st. and let the community have their way with him. There is not a court in this country that will be fair to him, let's punish him the way they did hudreds of years ago! A life sentence or even the death penalty is too good for him, I look forward to this piece of *#@# standing in front of the greatest judge of them all, Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! Vengence is mine sayith the Lord! And Mr. Andy scum You will feel the wrath of God upon you!!!! There is no way of death, painful enough for you, except the flames of hell uopn you!
by anonymous
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 7:37 PM
Just a thought . . . the content of the message is not necessarily invalidated by the actions of the messenger.

I think murder for political purposes is wrong, whether you talk about shooting a working stiff in Red Bluff or invading Iraq to satisfy the President's feeble ego.

I also think that corporate irresponsibility really is a major problem that is not going to go away. But anyone else out there who is reading this and is thinking about "direct action" -- consider this carefully. Killing solves nothing. Carefully showing a capability, then NOT using it . . . that can wake people up and make them think. And if you break the law, you also lose its protections . . . keep it legal but keep it radical.
by Dodie Thompson-Zimmerman
(dodiezimmerman [at] webtv.net) Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 7:37 PM
In our little Northern California town of Red Bluff, CA , we live a simple life here. Not too much to worry about, we smile alot. I have lived in this town for 21 years. I moved here with my family at age 15 from the Bay Area town of Baypoint, which was then West Pittsburg. My Dad wanted me here away from the bull crap of the city. We didn't worry about the things we used to. Now I raise my children here. My oldest son Devin was in Officer Mobilio's DARE program, what a dedicated man. With all the news we listen to today, on that Monday morning, we heard of a killing in our town, the killing of an outstanding police officer. We are outraged! I would like to have the opportunity to be face to face with this scum that took our officer in such a brutal manner. I wish they would bind his hands, walk him down our Main st. and let the community have their way with him. There is not a court in this country that will be fair to him, let's punish him the way they did hudreds of years ago! A life sentence or even the death penalty is too good for him, I look forward to this piece of *#@# standing in front of the greatest judge of them all, Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! Vengence is mine sayith the Lord! And Mr. Andy scum You will feel the wrath of God upon you!!!! There is no way of death, painful enough for you, except the flames of hell uopn you!
by Dodie Thompson-Zimmerman
(dodiezimmerman [at] webtv.net) Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 7:38 PM
In our little Northern California town of Red Bluff, CA , we live a simple life here. Not too much to worry about, we smile alot. I have lived in this town for 21 years. I moved here with my family at age 15 from the Bay Area town of Baypoint, which was then West Pittsburg. My Dad wanted me here away from the bull crap of the city. We didn't worry about the things we used to. Now I raise my children here. My oldest son Devin was in Officer Mobilio's DARE program, what a dedicated man. With all the news we listen to today, on that Monday morning, we heard of a killing in our town, the killing of an outstanding police officer. We are outraged! I would like to have the opportunity to be face to face with this scum that took our officer in such a brutal manner. I wish they would bind his hands, walk him down our Main st. and let the community have their way with him. There is not a court in this country that will be fair to him, let's punish him the way they did hudreds of years ago! A life sentence or even the death penalty is too good for him, I look forward to this piece of *#@# standing in front of the greatest judge of them all, Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! Vengence is mine sayith the Lord! And Mr. Andy scum You will feel the wrath of God upon you!!!! There is no way of death, painful enough for you, except the flames of hell uopn you!
by Dodie Thompson-Zimmerman
(dodiezimmerman [at] webtv.net) Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 7:39 PM
In our little Northern California town of Red Bluff, CA , we live a simple life here. Not too much to worry about, we smile alot. I have lived in this town for 21 years. I moved here with my family at age 15 from the Bay Area town of Baypoint, which was then West Pittsburg. My Dad wanted me here away from the bull crap of the city. We didn't worry about the things we used to. Now I raise my children here. My oldest son Devin was in Officer Mobilio's DARE program, what a dedicated man. With all the news we listen to today, on that Monday morning, we heard of a killing in our town, the killing of an outstanding police officer. We are outraged! I would like to have the opportunity to be face to face with this scum that took our officer in such a brutal manner. I wish they would bind his hands, walk him down our Main st. and let the community have their way with him. There is not a court in this country that will be fair to him, let's punish him the way they did hudreds of years ago! A life sentence or even the death penalty is too good for him, I look forward to this piece of *#@# standing in front of the greatest judge of them all, Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! Vengence is mine sayith the Lord! And Mr. Andy scum You will feel the wrath of God upon you!!!! There is no way of death, painful enough for you, except the flames of hell uopn you!
by anonymous
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 7:39 PM
Just a thought . . . the content of the message is not necessarily invalidated by the actions of the messenger.

I think murder for political purposes is wrong, whether you talk about shooting a working stiff in Red Bluff or invading Iraq to satisfy the President's feeble ego.

I also think that corporate irresponsibility really is a major problem that is not going to go away. But anyone else out there who is reading this and is thinking about "direct action" -- consider this carefully. Killing solves nothing. Carefully showing a capability, then NOT using it . . . that can wake people up and make them think. And if you break the law, you also lose its protections . . . keep it legal but keep it radical.
by anonymous
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 7:39 PM
Just a thought . . . the content of the message is not necessarily invalidated by the actions of the messenger.

I think murder for political purposes is wrong, whether you talk about shooting a working stiff in Red Bluff or invading Iraq to satisfy the President's feeble ego.

I also think that corporate irresponsibility really is a major problem that is not going to go away. But anyone else out there who is reading this and is thinking about "direct action" -- consider this carefully. Killing solves nothing. Carefully showing a capability, then NOT using it . . . that can wake people up and make them think. And if you break the law, you also lose its protections . . . keep it legal but keep it radical.
by anonymous
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 7:39 PM
Just a thought . . . the content of the message is not necessarily invalidated by the actions of the messenger.

I think murder for political purposes is wrong, whether you talk about shooting a working stiff in Red Bluff or invading Iraq to satisfy the President's feeble ego.

I also think that corporate irresponsibility really is a major problem that is not going to go away. But anyone else out there who is reading this and is thinking about "direct action" -- consider this carefully. Killing solves nothing. Carefully showing a capability, then NOT using it . . . that can wake people up and make them think. And if you break the law, you also lose its protections . . . keep it legal but keep it radical.
by anonymous
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 7:39 PM
Just a thought . . . the content of the message is not necessarily invalidated by the actions of the messenger.

I think murder for political purposes is wrong, whether you talk about shooting a working stiff in Red Bluff or invading Iraq to satisfy the President's feeble ego.

I also think that corporate irresponsibility really is a major problem that is not going to go away. But anyone else out there who is reading this and is thinking about "direct action" -- consider this carefully. Killing solves nothing. Carefully showing a capability, then NOT using it . . . that can wake people up and make them think. And if you break the law, you also lose its protections . . . keep it legal but keep it radical.
by anonymous
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 7:39 PM
Just a thought . . . the content of the message is not necessarily invalidated by the actions of the messenger.

I think murder for political purposes is wrong, whether you talk about shooting a working stiff in Red Bluff or invading Iraq to satisfy the President's feeble ego.

I also think that corporate irresponsibility really is a major problem that is not going to go away. But anyone else out there who is reading this and is thinking about "direct action" -- consider this carefully. Killing solves nothing. Carefully showing a capability, then NOT using it . . . that can wake people up and make them think. And if you break the law, you also lose its protections . . . keep it legal but keep it radical.
by Dodie Thompson-Zimmerman
(dodiezimmerman [at] webtv.net) Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 7:39 PM
In our little Northern California town of Red Bluff, CA , we live a simple life here. Not too much to worry about, we smile alot. I have lived in this town for 21 years. I moved here with my family at age 15 from the Bay Area town of Baypoint, which was then West Pittsburg. My Dad wanted me here away from the bull crap of the city. We didn't worry about the things we used to. Now I raise my children here. My oldest son Devin was in Officer Mobilio's DARE program, what a dedicated man. With all the news we listen to today, on that Monday morning, we heard of a killing in our town, the killing of an outstanding police officer. We are outraged! I would like to have the opportunity to be face to face with this scum that took our officer in such a brutal manner. I wish they would bind his hands, walk him down our Main st. and let the community have their way with him. There is not a court in this country that will be fair to him, let's punish him the way they did hudreds of years ago! A life sentence or even the death penalty is too good for him, I look forward to this piece of *#@# standing in front of the greatest judge of them all, Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! Vengence is mine sayith the Lord! And Mr. Andy scum You will feel the wrath of God upon you!!!! There is no way of death, painful enough for you, except the flames of hell uopn you!
by Jack Sheet
(jacksheet [at] hotmail.com) Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 7:48 PM
I hope Andy spends a long time in Pelican Bay. Perhaps Attorney General Lockyer can find him a suitable cell mate. His photo makes him look effeminate, so he'll make friends fast.
by H
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 7:51 PM
You know its not Darle/s fault or Andy's fault the are inbred idiots. People like them cannot think normal because of their inbred genes. Usually their mother is also their sister, and Daddy plays with them when their young. So I am sure Andy will have an exuse like, my dad sodomized me when I was young. Have you ever noticed that scumbags raise scumbags. It is a chain that is very difficult to break in this great nation. Bad parenting, drugs, and just plain freaks have plagued our nation since its birth. That is not an excuse though. If we get rid of idiots altogethor like Daryle and Andy then the chain of freak hood will eventually get broken, because they wont be around to give birth to more inbred dirt bags. Hey Daryle have you taken a shower today. Ive noticed that most people like you smell very badly. Whats up with that,is soap and water to corrupt for you.
by H
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 7:52 PM
You know its not Darle/s fault or Andy's fault the are inbred idiots. People like them cannot think normal because of their inbred genes. Usually their mother is also their sister, and Daddy plays with them when their young. So I am sure Andy will have an exuse like, my dad sodomized me when I was young. Have you ever noticed that scumbags raise scumbags. It is a chain that is very difficult to break in this great nation. Bad parenting, drugs, and just plain freaks have plagued our nation since its birth. That is not an excuse though. If we get rid of idiots altogethor like Daryle and Andy then the chain of freak hood will eventually get broken, because they wont be around to give birth to more inbred dirt bags. Hey Daryle have you taken a shower today. Ive noticed that most people like you smell very badly. Whats up with that,is soap and water to corrupt for you.
by Dodie
(dodiezimmerman [at] webtv.net) Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 7:55 PM
Oh yes, bring him to us, the citizens of Little ole' Red Bluff, Ca. We will show you what cop killers get! You killed OUR officer Dave, you punk! You better hope and Pray that they give you maximum security, cuz we will get you!
by Dodie
(dodiezimmerman [at] webtv.net) Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 7:55 PM
Oh yes, bring him to us, the citizens of Little ole' Red Bluff, Ca. We will show you what cop killers get! You killed OUR officer Dave, you punk! You better hope and Pray that they give you maximum security, cuz we will get you!
by proudcop
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 8:10 PM
This is to Daryl, Andrew McCrae, and anyone else like them. I am a police officer in Northern California and the death of Officer Mobilio was senseless, cowardly and unforgiveable. I too am a DARE officer and teach dare on my day's off. I am no better than anyone else, I do a job because I truly care about people and want to protect them. I know the risks, believe me, my wife and kids deal with it each time I leave for work. Just like 9-11-01, this terrorist act will only bring the law enforcement community closer and stronger. Come up to Northern California sometime and you better be a good shot because you will only get one chance if you plan to ambush me in the cowardly fashion that was done to Dave Mobilio. I might get hurt but they'll be carrying you out in a body bag. I'm a firm believer in "what goes around comes around" and McCrae will get what he deserves. My thoughts and prayers go out to Officer Dave Mobilio's family.
by John
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 8:18 PM
Somebody please answer this question for me, why is it that freaks like andy are anti government, and then they support idiots like gore who are for big government, not local control. I am a veteran myself and have been to over 32 countries, if you think it is so bad here then get the hell out. I get so sick of all these freaks griping about how terrible it is in the U.S. and how bad they have it. Most of those idiots have never held a job in their life and never have been anywhere. Leave if you dont like it you stupid idiots. Liberal inbred psychopaths. I guess you want a free ride though you dont want to work for it and wish someone would continue to provide for you. Breast feeding is a little strange by the time your 23 years old.
by GLopus
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 8:27 PM
Taking a human life, no matter what the cause, is wrong. Dave Mobillio was a police officer with a wife and baby son, working to provide food and shelter for them. He was not the cause of all the problems in the world. He was making a difference in a small community, being a DARE instructor and police officer. I did not know Dave personally, though I had met him a few times. He had nothing to to with Andy's agenda. I'm not a violent person by nature, although I do believe in "an eye for an eye" I think Andy will have no problem making friends at Pelican Bay. Those of you who refered to Officer Mobillio as a "dirtbag cop" should get to know some of our small town law enforcement officers and their families...they're just people, like you and me...just people doing a job...
by mike
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 8:33 PM
Just because Israelis oppress Palestinians doesn't justify suicide bombing. Just because bin laden killed 3,000 people doesn't mean the U.S. should have killed 3,000 innocent Afghans. And just because (some) cops are oppressive doesn't justify what this asshole did. Like all terrorism, it's going to "blow back" on the causes it's apparently meant to support, so batten down the henches, comrades. Who cares if some of what he says "makes sense."? He's an asshole. Fuck him. And fuck people who come up with mealy-mouthed statements like "Well, what he did was terrible, but....."
by --
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 8:36 PM
It's humorous to me that people are so outraged that this cop was killed. Maybe something good can come of this. Maybe you will now be able to empathise when other people are killed for no reason (including by law enforcement), but probably not. You all will probably continue in your current patterns and be unable to feel for others (protesters who are attacked, beaten, and even killed by the police). And the thing is that you are just like this poor soul who killed the cop, but you don't even know it. Funny that his action have showed how similar you all are. Where is your outrage every day when people are beaten and killed by the police (or others) for no reason? You don't have any. See people who actually care about people feel for all people who are injured or killed in instances where it isn't self defense. Not you brave people in this brave town.

Bush is going to say innocents had to die to get rid of the bad man at the top. Are you stupid? can you not see connections?

Not selfish people like yourselves. You only "feel" when you feel it's one of your own. How pathetic.

by dfd
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 8:36 PM
actually all drug dealers and drug users are lowlife scum bags and would be better of dead, hum sounds like a good vocation.
by michael
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 8:45 PM
Maybe Andy is confused, but what the constitution says in New Hampshire says, and the constitution in California says are two different things. When you are in another state, you have to abide by their laws, and not anothers. I think he is well educated, but somebody put an idea in his head that he can commit murder, and get away with it. Andy, you are not O.J., you are a punk kid who wanted to get some attention, and you succeded. Do you think it is worth two lives, the officers and your own. You will die and regret all that you stood for when u realize that nobody stands behind you or your veiws.
by michael
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 8:45 PM
Maybe Andy is confused, but what the constitution says in New Hampshire says, and the constitution in California says are two different things. When you are in another state, you have to abide by their laws, and not anothers. I think he is well educated, but somebody put an idea in his head that he can commit murder, and get away with it. Andy, you are not O.J., you are a punk kid who wanted to get some attention, and you succeded. Do you think it is worth two lives, the officers and your own. You will die and regret all that you stood for when u realize that nobody stands behind you or your veiws.
by Dr. Feelgood
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 9:16 PM
Get real people. Why are you posting to Andy as if he can read this. He's in jail!

A baby cries
A cop dies
A day's pay on the wild side.

With all of this hate talk going on here, we are no better than him.

You can kill with words just as easy as you can with a gun.

Let he who lives without sin cast the first stone.

All we are saying is give peace a chance.
by the REAL Daryle Lamont Jenkins
(dlj [at] onepeoplesproject.com) Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 9:22 PM
Someone hit me up to let me know I had someone impersonating me on this thread. Whoever is going by my name, get a life. I don't talk like that, and I would not. If anyone has any questions, you can email me at dlj [at] onepeoplesproject.com - my secondary email address that ISN'T on a website for someone to use pretending he is me!
by RB native
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 9:37 PM
Andy, What a great job you did of telling those big corporate bastards who's boss! YEAH RIGHT!!! Your a complete moron! Did you actually think killing a wonderful man like Dave would stop corporate america??? I can guarantee that the people who own those big corporations don't even know where Red Bluff is! After this is all said and done and people TRY to move on, corporate america will not even skipped a beat. If you are actually dumb enough to think that a two-bit loser, like yourself could stop them with one ridiculous stunt then you are just giving yourself way too much credit. We are a small town with a big heart. All you have done is completely pissed off a community and ruined a wife and small childs life. Way to go pal! By the way, next time you want to show corporate america a thing or two, why don't you pick someone who is not even deserving of taking another breath.....like yourself maybe!
by *******
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 9:41 PM
you killed an innocent man to prove a point about corporations? what kind of crap is that....i live in red bluff, and it makes me sick to think that some son of a bitch itdiot who hates "corporations" could come and kill any one of us right now....i cant wait to see what happens to you in court. i dont think you should die. i dont think you should get off that easy. i think you should have to sit the rest of you life out in jail all alone. think of the officers baby....growing up knowing that someone shot his dad for such a bull shit reason as this. i hope you realized what you have done to his family, this entire community. i drive around with my doors locked now. i get gas right across the street from where you shot office mobilio. i dont ever want to get gas or live my life how i used to now because of you. i hope you die a lonely miserable bastard in jail while some inmate makes you suck his dick.
-oh yeah and for that guy that said killing cops is cool you will probably be the next one rotting in jail.
by one possibility:
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 9:47 PM
Maybe they're idiots. There's been a lot of that going around lately.
by red bluff teen
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 9:56 PM
i cannot believe this has happened. a cop getting shot in MY hometown a little town that had absolutely nothing to do with your sick theories and antics. its horrible that you would even THINK these things let alone act them out on an innocent man who didnt do anything wrong.

i go to rb high school and one day we were talking about how we couldnt imagine how the family felt. can you imagine? its disgusting that you could do this. he was a father, to an 18 month old child...what is his child going to think about his opinions or views of this world??

and if you want to make such a difference you don't have to kill a cop, or anyone for that matter to do it. what you did was cowardly, and i hope you fry in hell for it. now i know you will probably never read this but i read your letter and how you addressed teenagers specifically-really got to me...not how you wanted it to. it made me mad-you trying to get to teens and try to make them act out on issues they probably barely understand. i know the government isnt perfect and theres a lot of things i dont know but i know enough to ignore a psycho who killed an innocent person to prove a point.

there are people out there making a difference in NONVIOLENT ways--and theyre not going to get the death penalty.
by tragic
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 9:57 PM
Today I saw a John Pilger film about Iraq. In attendance, was doctor who lived close to Kuwait in Saudi Arabia up until the US involvement. He confirmed what many have reported. Iraqi children were healthy before US enforced sanctions. UNICEF was removing personnel, due to a lack of a need for their efforts in Iraq. Hussein was the tyrannical leader of this country that at least provided for it's children. As a result of US involvement, thousands of children have died every month for over 10 years. If the US did not punish the people for the actions of a dictator that the US helped get power, then these children would not have died.

Blaming Hussein for the US murdering a million innocent, loving children from powerless families is a million times worse then blaming corporations for the murder of a police officer.

I send my deepest sympathies and best wishes to the family, coworkers, friends, Red Bluff residents, and all others affected by the tragic murder of David Mobilio, as I do for the loved ones of the millions of nameless children murdered by US enforced sanctions in Iraq. I will work, nonviolently, as much as I can to minimize the occurrence of murderous activity in the future.

20 years ago, Nicaragua had a growing economy praised by the UN for its progress and potential to benefit human beings. Since Nicaragua had socialistic policies, the US fought a terror war that resulted in the deaths of thousands of innocent people. Now, Nicaragua is the poorest, or one of the poorest countries in Latin America. Once again, US actions led to death and destruction visited upon innocent civilians who did nothing to the US.

Maybe you can remember your pain and outrage at tragedies that have affected your life when US foreign policy is being debated on tv or in papers. Maybe you can see that US actions affect others that have feelings to. Maybe you can search for peaceful alternatives before using force. Maybe you can take your share of responsiblity for what your country has done as much as you try to blame your dehumanized enemies.
by Joshua And Laura
(Fuck [at] andy.com) Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 9:58 PM

To andy and all of his gay little followers. What The Fuck? Where would we be without police? If they were not around, your mother would have been raped, you would have been robbed, and your children killed. And no justice would be served, and everyone would always live in fear.

To Andy: I sincerely hope you get

FUCKED IN THE ASS 3 TIMES A DAY!!!

I can't imagine how great the guards will treat you. Rot in fucking hell....
by GLopus
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 10:06 PM
I have to agree with John...If America is so bad, get the hell out. America has alot of things other countries don't, like freedom of speach. Try going to Afghanistan or some other county and talking about how badly the govenment sucks and see what happens next. I would like nothing better than to see world peace, but i know damn well that no protest, letter writing or anything else like this will make everybody magically say "I'm Sorry" and start some sort of world wide "group hug". Murder, in any form, for any reason, is wrong. When it is a decent family man, who is trying to make a difference in his community, to make it a better place for his wife and child to live, it's even worse. Dave Mobillio did nothing to Andy, or anybody else to provoke murder. He has never beaten or killed a protestor. He was just doing his job, keeping watch of his community. If you think killing a man, just because he's a police officer, is ok...try living in a nation with no police protection. I come from a white, middle class family in rural Northern California, so I don't pretend to know what people are going through in the big cities, but here in rural America, I'm glad to have The Red Bluff Police Department, The Redding Police Department, The Shasta County Sherriff's Department and the Tehama County Sherriff's Department watching my backside, making sure the people in our small communities are ok...
by informed citizen
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 10:24 PM
Regardless of what was done. Yes, this man has some serious issues, but let's just make one point clear -- HE HAS A RIGHT TO POST WHATEVER THE HELL HE WANTS HERE, so don't come onto this site trying to say that it only breeds hatred. For those of us who have the balls to use intellect, reason, and really just anything other than political socialization we recieved while growing up in podunk towns (I'm from redding as well) we are given the right to speak freely, no matter how hated and revolution-inspring (not synonymous with "fighting-words"). I hope justice is served, and I feel for the family of Mr. Mobilio. Sir, how dare you resort to violence when it is this violence we in the "cause" are trying to fight.
by steven
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 10:49 PM
Unfortunatly there will be no trial in Red Bluff for this scumbag. The trial will be moved to another location or the waste of sperm will commit suicide in jail while on suicide watch. There is more here than we are being told, but it will never come out. Some people think that this was a hired "hit" as retaliation for a death that happened in town several weeks ago. I would like to have all the information on this guy and his contacts here in Red Bluff. But as I said, it will never happen. For this reason I feel sorry for the child and widow, not knowing the full story.
by Peacey
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 10:50 PM
OK, Just to drive the point home again: HELL IS NOT A REAL PLACE. SANTA CLAUS IS NOT REAL NOR IS THE EASTER BUNNY! Ok, so let's all try something more creative than "burn in hell."

As hard as it is in the midst of tumultuous emotions, let's try not to spew even more hatred. Andy seems like a troubled, pathetic person. There is never an excuse to take a life and if we take HIS life then we are just as bad as he was. The old pot calling the kettle black. He killed him so I'll kill him and you killed so and so so I'll kill you and on and on and on. Let the Universe take care of this guy. He'll get his. Why waste your breath spouting venom on a message board.

Out of curiousity, I would like to know what has happened to this message board recently. For example, it used to be inteligent conversation and now it seems like there are alot of bigots on here.In this thread alone, there are many calling each other "faggots." Sorry, I live in San Francisco so I'm not used to that shit. Are people from Texas infiltrating SF Indymedia all of a sudden? In certain threads it looks like "Focus on the Family."

What happened?
by informed citizen
Tuesday Nov 26th, 2002 10:50 PM
Regardless of what was done. Yes, this man has some serious issues, but let's just make one point clear -- HE HAS A RIGHT TO POST WHATEVER THE HELL HE WANTS HERE, so don't come onto this site trying to say that it only breeds hatred. For those of us who have the balls to use intellect, reason, and really just anything other than political socialization we recieved while growing up in podunk towns (I'm from redding as well) we are given the right to speak freely, no matter how hated and revolution-inspring (not synonymous with "fighting-words"). I hope justice is served, and I feel for the family of Mr. Mobilio. Sir, how dare you resort to violence when it is this violence we in the "cause" are trying to fight.
by Sue W
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 12:08 AM
As a resident in Red Bluff I as all of you feel sorrow an sadness for what this misguided fellow human being has done to Officer Dave and his family. Andy wrote as an educated young man. He had a right to his views but no man has the right to take a life. Imagine the mind of a person who would do this horriable act. Now he will pay with his life or freeedom, regardless which it is will it ever be enough?
by ?
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 12:14 AM
Why were the following addresses and phone #s given by McCrea? Has anyone called them?

The Declaration of a Renewed American Independence
by Andrew McCrae 5:05pm Mon Nov 25 '02 (Modified on 11:02pm Tue Nov 26 '02)
address: 420 Sherman St. Olympia, WA phone: 360-753-7486
http://www.seattle.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=20309&group=webcast

The Declaration of a Renewed American Independence
by Andrew McCrae 5:29pm Mon Nov 25 '02
address: 342 Treehaven St. Austin TX phone: 374-988-4833 n
http://austin.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=4378&group=webcast

The Declaration Of A Renewed American Independence
by Andrew McCrae
Email: none (unverified!)
Phone: 834-389-2933
Address: 433 Blackraven Dr. Baltimore, Maryland
http://baltimore.indymedia.org/newswire/display/2219/index.php

by L.Blank
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 12:26 AM
We are all outraged by the senseless act of one man against another... Taking a man from his family, friends, & co- workers. A man who was a piller of his community, a hero to the children in the school where he hoped to keep them from becoming drug addicts, and possably Murders!!! You ask why? Why would someone as apparently as intelligent as "Andy" is,do something so senseless? It doesn't matter " Why" when the outcome can't be changed. A Man is dead...
by andy h8er
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 1:37 AM


I hate andy!

by admin test
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 1:38 AM
can anybody read this?
by admin test
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 1:38 AM
can anybody read this?
by google
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 1:52 AM

The searches didn't turn up any links.....

Austin
by Address: search has returned no results
by Name: 0 Matches Found
by Phone: Your search has returned no results

Baltimore
by Address: Your search has returned no results
by Name: 0 Matches Found
by Phone: Your search has returned no results

Olympia
by Address: 39 Total Results
by Name: 0 Matches Found
by Phone: Henderson, Michael

...but there is first had verification that an Andrew McCrae did live in Olympia, Washington

The FBI arrested 23-year old Andrew McCrae Tuesday morning after a standoff at a hotel. As far as investigators know, McCrae did not live in New Hampshire. He lives in Olympia at the Capitol House Apartments, where his arrest comes as a shock. Gina Gervasi says she lived across the hall from McCrae.
"He just seemed like a normal guy. A kid, you know, 20's," Gervasi said "I didn't think he'd ever kill a police officer. I don't know. I can't believe that."
www.komotv.com/stories/21642.htm
by upi
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 2:23 AM

...There was no immediate comment from Red Bluff police, however readers of the Web site appeared largely appalled at McCrae's actions and his justification.

"Nice job, you moron," wrote one reader. "Lay in wait like the coward that you are and whack a cop filling up his car with gas... shot from behind...like the tiny Podunk town of Red Bluff, Ca is a hotbed of police state tactics...who are you trying to kid? You're just another sorry, pathetic, loser punk who's just wasted their life...do you think you've made a difference in the world? Maybe to the 18-month-old child you just left without a father? I hope you have a few years to reflect on your misery on death row before the government slips that long needle into your pathetic, deserving arm...and you end up where you belong... "

Another posting said simply, "You should go to hell."

Other submissions echoed McCrae's condemnation of "corporate America" and bemoaned the "wasting" of his life and the prospect of facing life in prison.

"Christine," from Red Bluff posted the following message: "I don't know where to begin. I Live in Red Bluff, CA and personally knew Officer Mobilio. He was a very kind man and worked with the Elementary Schools DARE programs. He was married and had a 19-month-old son. How can any one human being think that he can play God? What gives you the right to just decide that someone innocent needs to die? Your Corporation will do you no good; it isn't a debt...it's murder."

(Reported by Hil Anderson in Los Angeles)

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20021126-055719-4322r

by Vlad
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 2:30 AM

For someone who revealed his crime and surrendered volunteraly, he doesn't seem like a monster that everyones makes him to be. He's just an idealist. And while that is not an excuse to kill people, some of you people are being completly unfair in your judgement.

What's worse, you call him guilty even when his sentance hasn't been heard yet. Shame on you.
by pissed off
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 3:28 AM
well, i think this will finally finish up the anti-corporate movement in the USA. This will effectivly turn most 'everyday folk' against or minority movement, no matter what our causes are.

I am very depressed now.
by Santafe
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 3:45 AM
Gee Vlad, t
The guy wrote in his first sentence: "I killed a Police Officer ". I really don't think it we can be accused of jumping to conclusions or pre-judging him prior to official sentencing.
I wonder if the policeman's family agrees with you that he's not a monster.

For what its worth though, I don't think he really killed anyone. I think this is a bogus writeup.
by John Doe
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 4:41 AM
All evidence to the contrary, I still want to believe that this is not for real.
Yes, cops, from time to time, engage in questionable, even deadly, tactics, but when it comes right down to it, they're generally just doing their job.
You stupid paranoid f*cks all seem to believe that law enforcement automatically equals EVIL!
It's just as knee-jerk and idiotic a belief as those in the GOOOO CAPITALISM! crowd have.
One could go on and on about the evils of corporations, and if this guy's writing had been merely satire, had not been based in fact, it would have been brilliant, I'll give him that much.
But killing one who upholds the law, who - for better or worse - is seen by the vast majority of Americans as a Good Person no matter what his personal life may actually be like, just knocks the cause of Corporate Change back another ten years.
This gives the Real Powers That Be yet another person they can point to to discredit Social Justice movements, to say "Look! Look at these violent punks!" When people do shit like this, they're only digging their own graves.
by Mr.macDougal
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 5:55 AM
Does this same Jesus not forgive even murders,are liars(ever lied before?)The hidious crime this person has commited is over.Now the real tests begins,that test being the condition of our hearts.Justice will be served,rest assured.Will you the officers who will be in charge of his custody be able to treat your new prisoner justly,as our laws and our God require?Do not let hatered become the driving force of your anger,it will not only destroy you,but also those around you.Paul persicutted the early christian church,and was used mightly.My question then is this,can God forgive a murder???We as people will never forget this hidious crime and a lot will never forgive,but if you as you say beleive in God then remember this,let not the sun go down on your anger.Our comunity is broken here in RedBluff and this needs to be a time of healing and much prayer of them that beleive,examine your own hearts to see if any bad thing lives there,then pray for your own forgiveness,and let God and our courts deal with the murder,and please pray for Daves family,THEY NEED IT THE MOST.
by King Queen
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 5:59 AM
It is a shame that the only way the corporate media will express anti-corporate ideas is if there are laws broken.

There may be 40,000 people at a Smokey Bears picnic and it doesn't make the news; 2,000 people turn up at a demo in central London and fight the cops, and it does make the news - but in the wrong way.

We are fucked either way.

I don't condone killing anybody; violence is never the way forward, but I hope that the killing at least has some benefit - and that this guy's political points are made in the media.

But I doubt it. I suspect they will just call him an "anti-capitalist" and end it there. In their views, "anti-capitalist" = "deviant" = "terrorist".

It's just sad, how sad.
by cp
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 6:36 AM
Andrew McCrae received marksman training in the army. He didn't go to college - he spent the past 3 years in the military. The other sniper was in the military too. Lots of kids I know in the army have described a kind of split life or brain that they have - like one guy was describing how coming out of training, he couldn't look at crowds of people at a distance without mentally strategizing how to knock them off.
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2002/11/27/MN70905.DTL
From the SF Chronicle:"
Little is known about McCrae's background. He lived in Ohio as a teenager and spent three years in the Army, mostly stationed at Fort Campbell, Ky., until he was discharged Aug. 11, 2001, his family said. The Army declined to comment on his service.

McCrae, who identifies himself in the posting as an Army veteran and graduate of the U.S. Army Ranger School, Airborne School and Jungle Operations Training School, also complains heartily about the military. "

by morliss tweed
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 6:47 AM
Somebody, probably your average American (dumb, fat-assed, half-witted mega-consumer) ...

>Your stupid
>by ******** • Tuesday November 26, 2002 at 09:43 AM
>
>You should go to hell

Well, all I say is let's hope they teach grammar in hell ...

PS. Bush is perfect for you American lunatics: he speaks in slow soundbite-like phrases, easy to misunde...^ZZZZZZ understand grunts, and makes enough mistakes that most Americans can relate to him. Complete with knuckles dragging on the ground, he's your perfect president.

Problem is, why can't you keep him the fuck at home?
by Jake
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 6:55 AM
So he is guilty?
When was the verdict released, i cant seem to find it on the net...

oh wait a sec, that happens after a trial...





by Oscar Beard
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 7:22 AM
This is a message to all those who felt compelled to reply and attack Andrew McCrae. If you deny anything that Andy states in this article then the American education system must have worked on you. You are all stupid and blind - go vote for Bush, or even Gore, they're the same when you strip away all the red white and blue and funding anyway. Andy, can't say I condone cop killing (if you really did), still its a great way to catch the public attention, and it seems to have worked. I have been studying the American process on many levels for over 12 years now, and I'm sorry to say Andy is right. We are all being sold down the river for corporate dollars, designer labels and brand names. The cost being our planet and clean air. People no longer count, not even our soldiers - we're just numbers on a collateral damage estimatye sheet. This summer I spent some time with a group of U.S Marines. Funnily enough they seemed to understand your countries screwed up processes more than any other American I had ever met. Several even talked of putting a bullet in Bush's head and "end this madness" as one called it. So, wake up, oh so eager Americans to have your say. Instead of attacking those who are open to what is really going on, why not be democratic. See what people have to say, look into their information and see if it is true before you condemn them and their ideals. Stop hiding behind a 2000 year old religon and hypocritical laws. You are not righteous. If you are blind to what is going on world-wide, you are as guilty as those who fly planes into buildings, or those who sell weapons to "rogue states" then declare war on them four years later, labelling them an "axis of evil". Jesus ain't going to love you for that. No, straight to the bottom of hell for you boys and girls. Be aware, understand what is happening, locally, nationally and internationally, and try and do something about it, before it gets too late to even talk about such things. Be warned and be aware. Andy, keep up the good work, (but stop killing cops), just try talking to people about your views, you'll get more respect. Dr. Oscar Beard - journalist
by Fred
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 7:28 AM
Why are all you guys flaming the author of this article, when you dont flame the corporates that kill people.

Who invented Napalm ? Cluster bombs ? Land mines ?

How about that indian "chemical plant" "accident".

So - lets get this right. You're slandering a corporation because he claims to have killed one person. (This in itself is a henious crime). Large corporations worldwide kill hundreds of thousands (and not just McMerican ones. Think of "African dried milk scandal", "human organ trafficking", etc.

But - if he's a corporation, I just hope that the same laws that get applied to the corporations get applied to him. Apalling though that would be.

So choose. The USA is supposed to be the world cop. So be one. "Justice is blind" used to mean something.


Got a problem with this ? Then DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

Protest. Complain. Demand that the law is not immutable by some chimpanzee goverment in the pay of the corporates. Use your vote wisely.

Clearly, you have not done so recently.


Good luck.
by Logical Monster
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 7:33 AM
It is OK for the rich to have as much as they do if they created the wealth. Wealth is created, so someone can become richer without taking from someone else. Someone becoming rich by taking from someone else is not a common situation.

If you think wealth can not be created, then you think there is a limited amount of wealth -- so the only wealth in this British colony is a fraction of what England had in colonial days? Wealth is created when someone sells for more than their cost -- such as by using ten cents of plastic, three cents of labor, and a miniscule amount of wear on a machine, to make a toy which sells for $1.95. They use that wealth to pay taxes, pay employees, pay for the factory...and pay some to executives and shareholders.

It is due to so much wealth being created by 225 years of business that the USA has the world's largest middle class. Our society has succeeded in not allowing robber warlords to tear down any region, has destroyed major pirate organizations which threatened shipping and life ("...to the shores of Tripoli..."), and has minimized leeching criminal groups. Millions of people have been able to earn a decent living, banks have a stable economy and can make loans so people can buy homes instead of having to spend to rent, and the creation of one's own business is encouraged. Many new businesses fail, but some succeed and produce new wealth for a corner, a neighborhood, a city, or a country.

Some people in other countries are envious of the USA. Many try to improve their country and their lives. A few aren't so creative, and try to bring the USA down to their level. Making everyone poor does not improve any situation.

by Todd
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 7:51 AM
Ya and who will you call when you need help?
by Todd
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 7:51 AM
Ya and who will you call when you need help?
by Bryan
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 8:15 AM
Well, as valid of an emotion as anger is, this set us back yet again. The movement against capitalism, as I understand it is also a movement FOR justice and FOR peace. Maybe I'm wrong, but this is going to take a while for this ailing anit-corporate and anti-capitalism movement to recover from. Don't get me wrong, a cop is just a cop and as sad as it is for the family, everything that man stood for was evil and currupt. The oppression he helped keep in place, even if he was so ignorant as to not realize his place in the oppressive cycle, is the real sadness. In comparison to the sadness felt by so many people worldwide as a rusult of bullshit policy and power-hungry cops/soldiers/politicians/CEO's/ you folks in California or wherever who feel the need to morn and feel bad about this one little event have very little to feel bad about. Wake up and see the oppresion and violence everywhere. What are you going to do about it? Kill a killer to prove killing is wrong so you can selfishly feel good about yourself? Wake up and work to end the systematic violence in your own lives/communities. Make the existance of cops useless if you are so damn concerned about them.
by Bryan
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 8:15 AM
Well, as valid of an emotion as anger is, this set us back yet again. The movement against capitalism, as I understand it is also a movement FOR justice and FOR peace. Maybe I'm wrong, but this is going to take a while for this ailing anit-corporate and anti-capitalism movement to recover from. Don't get me wrong, a cop is just a cop and as sad as it is for the family, everything that man stood for was evil and currupt. The oppression he helped keep in place, even if he was so ignorant as to not realize his place in the oppressive cycle, is the real sadness. In comparison to the sadness felt by so many people worldwide as a rusult of bullshit policy and power-hungry cops/soldiers/politicians/CEO's/ you folks in California or wherever who feel the need to morn and feel bad about this one little event have very little to feel bad about. Wake up and see the oppresion and violence everywhere. What are you going to do about it? Kill a killer to prove killing is wrong so you can selfishly feel good about yourself? Wake up and work to end the systematic violence in your own lives/communities. Make the existance of cops useless if you are so damn concerned about them.
by Suggestion Box
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 8:22 AM
You would have gotten better identification if you'd taken out this one.

I agree with your arguments but not your actions. Sadly, I suspect there will be many more casualties on all sides before sanity returns.

by what?
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 8:30 AM
"Maybe I'm wrong, but this is going to take a while for this ailing anit-corporate and anti-capitalism movement to recover from."

Some crazy person kills someone and makes a few local papers. I dont see how this has anything to do with the "anti-capitalism movement ". People who knew the police officer are angry but its not even a major news story outside to this guys town...
by Keith
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 8:36 AM
Yet again!1

I found this thred just browsing through the news sites.Im from the UK who's government is getting the same way as that flea pit called the US.

Where else would someone kill an innocent to prove a well known point?If you want a change in the citadel of commerce then you must play by their rules.

Personally-I reckon you should douse yourselves in the oh so important cheap gas and light the bloody thing and be done with it.You are a virus.

Anyone is planning a trip to the moon then im coming with you cause this planet is pure shit and is getting smellier I reckon.

Thanks for reading my minor rant.

Keith
by Tim Messer
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 8:37 AM
I agree with the Corporate slating, but it seems that you could have chosen a more high profile 'victim'. A ploice officer with dependents would not engender much public sympathy. But then, perhaps appealing to the regular Joe Public was not on your agenda. Your piece was well written and thankfully, sane.
Regards.
by ...
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 8:37 AM
Address given in

http://austin.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=4378&group=webcast

http://makeashorterlink.com/?V23E34692



Address given in http://baltimore.indymedia.org/newswire/display/2219/index.php

does not exist but is probably a reference to Edgar Allen Poe who lived in Baltimore

by mc
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 8:37 AM
That Red Bluff is one hateful, spiteful city. The man "confessed"... he still has to be proven guilty. If he did it, yes, it was wrong to do, and I feel sorry for the policeman's family. But you people in Red Bluff seem to pratice a strange form of Christianity, with all your hate.

If you read past that first sentance in Andy's diatribe, you'll just find a guy who is disgusted with a country he loves. He served 3 years for a country that he finally realized is heading in the wrong direction. He's one of the few young people to do this - after the counter-culture of the early 60's was suppressed, and that generation lost their way, it was realized that the best sheep are dumb sheep. Not too many people in their 20's these days care about what is happening around them (ask anyone in their teens what the 5th Admendent affords them). If Andy's message is laced in blood, that is only because it is a reflection of the culture that surrounds him (if you want to refute that, take another look at some of the messages by dotie, and the fine girls at Red Bluff High, and others). These days, the pen is no longer stronger than the sword - the message gets across only with extreme messures, because the counter-noise is way too loud. My hope is that it will only take one.
Again, its very sad this happened, whether Andy did it or not. My grief is with the family. But remember too that Andy has a family, and though the one poster liked to speculate (alittle too fervently) about his pedigree, they are probably shocked and saddened as well. Andy has a clear, articulate message that does not normally escape past the baying of the other sheep.
Hopefully you read past his first sentance, which is there to get your attention, and stop to see what is really going on around you, and why (IF he did it) Andy felt that this was the only way to get your attention. Because if you don't, this will not be the last time.
by Serra
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 8:38 AM
This is just terrible! I don't see how someone can do such a thing to someone just because of their profession. Cops are very good people, if there weren't cops, there would be so much more crime in this country right now!
by 2lab
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 8:40 AM
It's sad that Andy felt that this was the only way to get his point across but he's probaly right.

I'd be prepared to bet that the people saying that Andy is evil and will burn in hell, if not the electic chair, don't complain when American bombs and policies kill innocent people around the world.

Is one death for peace worse than a thousand deaths for money?
by pic
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 8:44 AM
mccrea.jpg
by A Fox
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 8:45 AM
Wow. Anyone like to actually rebutt anything he's said?

I mean calling him a c**ksucker is hardly constructive is it?
by Browne
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 8:46 AM
I agree with his point but not the method. Wrong target/means Andy.

Ireland
by Jerry Middlemiss
(jerry [at] richat.com) Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 9:09 AM
Sorry but I disagree with all you whiners out there. How many people have the police/military/spook agencies silenced unfairly? Do you think that is fair? Have they been punished?

Sometimes, the only way to make a point is to piss people off. And yes, I feel bad for his family. I myself have young children. Tough shit. It is time for us to get the system back to something resembling sanity. If we don't, then it won't be long until 1984 is really here.
by Goldman
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 9:18 AM
TO ANALYZE the psychology of political violence is not only extremely difficult, but also very dangerous. If such acts are treated with understanding, one is immediately accused of eulogizing them. If, on the other hand, human sympathy is expressed with the Attentäter, one risks being considered a possible accomplice. Yet it is only intelligence and sympathy that can bring us closer to the source of human suffering, and teach us the ultimate way out of it.

The primitive man, ignorant of natural forces, dreaded their approach, hiding from the perils they threatened. As man learned to understand Nature's phenomena, he realized that though these may destroy life and cause great loss, they also bring relief. To the earnest student it must be apparent that the accumulated forces in our social and economic life, culminating in a political act of violence, are similar to the terrors of the atmosphere, manifested in storm and lightning.

To thoroughly appreciate the truth of this view, one must feel intensely the indignity of our social wrongs; one's very being must throb with the pain, the sorrow, the despair millions of people are daily made to endure. Indeed, unless we have become a part of humanity, we cannot even faintly understand the just indignation that accumulates in a human soul, the burning, surging passion that makes the storm inevitable.

The ignorant mass looks upon the man who makes a violent protest against our social and economic iniquities as upon a wild beast, a cruel, heartless monster, whose joy it is to destroy life and bathe in blood; or at best, as upon an irresponsible lunatic. Yet nothing is further from the truth. As a matter of fact, those who have studied the character and personality of these men, or who have come in close contact with them, are agreed that it is their super-sensitiveness to the wrong and injustice surrounding them which compels them to pay the toll of our social crimes. The most noted writers and poets, discussing the psychology of political offenders, have paid them the highest tribute. Could anyone assume that these men had advised violence, or even approved of the acts? Certainly not. Theirs was the attitude of the social student, of the man who knows that beyond every violent act there is a vital cause.

Björnstjerne Björnson, in the second part of Beyond Human Power, emphasizes the fact that it is among the Anarchists that we must look for the modern martyrs who pay for their faith with their blood, and who welcome death with a smile, because they believe, as truly as Christ did, that their martyrdom will redeem humanity.

François Copp , the French novelist, thus expresses himself regarding the psychology of the Attentäter:

"The reading of the details of Vaillant's execution left me in a thoughtful mood. I imagined him expanding his chest under the ropes, marching with firm step, stiffening his will, concentrating all his energy, and, with eyes fixed upon the knife, hurling finally at society his cry of malediction. And, in spite of me, another spectacle rose suddenly before my mind. I saw a group of men and women pressing against each other in the middle of the oblong arena of the circus, under the gaze of thousands of eyes, while from all the steps of the immense amphitheatre went up the terrible cry, Ad leones! and, below, the opening cages of the wild beasts.

"I did not believe the execution would take place. In the first place, no victim had been struck with death, and it had long been the custom not to punish an abortive crime with the last degree of severity. Then, this crime, however terrible in intention, was disinterested, born of an abstract idea. The man's past, his abandoned childhood, his life of hardship, pleaded also in his favor. In the independent press generous voices were raised in his behalf, very loud and eloquent. 'A purely literary current of opinion' some have said, with no little scorn. It is, on the contrary, an honor to the men of art and thought to have expressed once more their disgust at the scaffold."

Again Zola, in Germinal and Paris, describes the tenderness and kindness, the deep sympathy with human suffering, of these men who close the chapter of their lives with a violent outbreak against our system.

Last, but not least, the man who probably better than anyone else understands the psychology of the Attentäter is M. Hamon, the author of the brilliant work Une Psychologie du Militaire Professionnel, who has arrived at these suggestive conclusions:

"The positive method confirmed by the rational method enables us to establish an ideal type of Anarchist, whose mentality is the aggregate of common psychic characteristics. Every Anarchist partakes sufficiently of this ideal type to make it possible to differentiate him from other men. The typical Anarchist, then, may be defined as follows: A man perceptible by the spirit of revolt under one or more of its forms,--opposition, investigation, criticism, innovation,--endowed with a strong love of liberty, egoistic or individualistic, and possessed of great curiosity, a keen desire to know. These traits are supplemented by an ardent love of others, a highly developed moral sensitiveness, a profound sentiment of justice, and imbued with missionary zeal."

To the above characteristics, says Alvin F. Sanborn, must be added these sterling qualities: a rare love of animals, surpassing sweetness in all the ordinary relations of life, exceptional sobriety of demeanor, frugality and regularity, austerity, even, of living, and courage beyond compare. 2

"There is a truism that the man in the street seems always to forget, when he is abusing the Anarchists, or whatever party happens to be his bête noire for the moment, as the cause of some outrage just perpetrated. This indisputable fact is that homicidal outrages have, from time immemorial, been the reply of goaded and desperate classes, and goaded and desperate individuals, to wrongs from their fellowmen, which they felt to be intolerable. Such acts are the violent recoil from violence, whether aggressive or repressive; they are the last desperate struggle of outraged and exasperated human nature for breathing space and life. And their cause lies not in any special conviction, but in the depths of that human nature itself. The whole course of history, political and social, is strewn with evidence of this fact. To go no further, take the three most notorious examples of political parties goaded into violence during the last fifty years: the Mazzinians in Italy, the Fenians in Ireland, and the Terrorists in Russia. Were these people Anarchists? No. Did they all three even hold the same political opinions? No. The Mazzinians were Republicans, the Fenians political separatists, the Russians Social Democrats or Constitutionalists. But all were driven by desperate circumstances into this terrible form of revolt. And when we turn from parties to individuals who have acted in like manner, we stand appalled by the number of human beings goaded and driven by sheer desperation into conduct obviously violently opposed to their social instincts.

"Now that Anarchism has become a living force in society, such deeds have been sometimes committed by Anarchists, as well as by others. For no new faith, even the most essentially peaceable and humane the mind of man has yet accepted, but at its first coming has brought upon earth not peace, but a sword; not because of anything violent or anti-social in the doctrine itself; simply because of the ferment any new and creative idea excites in men's minds, whether they accept or reject it. And a conception of Anarchism, which, on one hand, threatens every vested interest, and, on the other, holds out a vision of a free and noble life to be won by a struggle against existing wrongs, is certain to rouse the fiercest opposition, and bring the whole repressive force of ancient evil into violent contact with the tumultuous outburst of a new hope.

"Under miserable conditions of life, any vision of the possibility of better things makes the present misery more intolerable, and spurs those who suffer to the most energetic struggles to improve their lot, and if these struggles only immediately result in sharper misery, the outcome is sheer desperation. In our present society, for instance, an exploited wage worker, who catches a glimpse of what work and life might and ought to be, finds the toilsome routine and the squalor of his existence almost intolerable; and even when he has the resolution and courage to continue steadily working his best, and waiting until new ideas have so permeated society as to pave the way for better times, the mere fact that he has such ideas and tries to spread them, brings him into difficulties with his employers. How many thousands of Socialists, and above all Anarchists, have lost work and even the chance of work, solely on the ground of their opinions. It is only the specially gifted craftsman, who, if he be a zealous propagandist, can hope to retain permanent employment. And what happens to a man with his brain working actively with a ferment of new ideas, with a vision before his eyes of a new hope dawning for toiling and agonizing men, with the knowledge that his suffering and that of his fellows in misery is not caused by the cruelty of fate, but by the injustice of other human beings,--what happens to such a man when he sees those dear to him starving, when he himself is starved? Some natures in such a plight, and those by no means the least social or the least sensitive, will become violent, and will even feel that their violence is social and not anti-social, that in striking when and how they can, they are striking, not for themselves, but for human nature, outraged and despoiled in their persons and in those of their fellow sufferers. And are we, who ourselves are not in this horrible predicament, to stand by and coldly condemn these piteous victims of the Furies and Fates? Are we to decry as miscreants these human beings who act with heroic self-devotion, sacrificing their lives in protest, where less social and less energetic natures would lie down and grovel in abject submission to injustice and wrong? Are we to join the ignorant and brutal outcry which stigmatizes such men as monsters of wickedness, gratuitously running amuck in a harmonious and innocently peaceful society? No! We hate murder with a hatred that may seem absurdly exaggerated to apologists for Matabele massacres, to callous acquiescers in hangings and bombardments, but we decline in such cases of homicide, or attempted homicide, as those of which we are treating, to be guilty of the cruel injustice of flinging the whole responsibility of the deed upon the immediate perpetrator. The guilt of these homicides lies upon every man and woman who, intentionally or by cold indifference, helps to keep up social conditions that drive human beings to despair. The man who flings his whole life into the attempt, at the cost of his own life, to protest against the wrongs of his fellow men, is a saint compared to the active and passive upholders of cruelty and injustice, even if his protest destroy other lives besides his own. Let him who is without sin in society cast the first stone at such an one." 3

That every act of political violence should nowadays be attributed to Anarchists is not at all surprising. Yet it is a fact known to almost everyone familiar with the Anarchist movement that a great number of acts, for which Anarchists had to suffer, either originated with the capitalist press or were instigated, if not directly perpetrated, by the police.

For a number of years acts of violence had been committed in Spain, for which the Anarchists were held responsible, hounded like wild beasts, and thrown into prison. Later it was disclosed that the perpetrators of these acts were not Anarchists, but members of the police department. The scandal became so widespread that the conservative Spanish papers demanded the apprehension and punishment of the gang-leader, Juan Rull, who was subsequently condemned to death and executed. The sensational evidence, brought to light during the trial, forced Police Inspector Momento to exonerate completely the Anarchists from any connection with the acts committed during a long period. This resulted in the dismissal of a number of police officials, among them Inspector Tressols, who, in revenge, disclosed the fact that behind the gang of police bomb throwers were others of far higher position, who provided them with funds and protected them.

This is one of the many striking examples of how Anarchist conspiracies are manufactured.

That the American police can perjure themselves with the same ease, that they are just as merciless, just as brutal and cunning as their European colleagues, has been proven on more than one occasion. We need only recall the tragedy of the eleventh of November, 1887, known as the Haymarket Riot.

No one who is at all familiar with the case can possibly doubt that the Anarchists, judicially murdered in Chicago, died as victims of a lying, blood-thirsty press and of a cruel police conspiracy. Has not Judge Gary himself said: "Not because you have caused the Haymarket bomb, but because you are Anarchists, you are on trial."

The impartial and thorough analysis by Governor Altgeld of that blotch on the American escutcheon verified the brutal frankness of Judge Gary. It was this that induced Altgeld to pardon the three Anarchists, thereby earning the lasting esteem of every liberty-loving man and woman in the world.

When we approach the tragedy of September sixth, 1901, we are confronted by one of the most striking examples of how little social theories are responsible for an act of political violence. "Leon Czolgosz, an Anarchist, incited to commit the act by Emma Goldman." To be sure, has she not incited violence even before her birth, and will she not continue to do so beyond death? Everything is possible with the Anarchists.

Today, even, nine years after the tragedy, after it was proven a hundred times that Emma Goldman had nothing to do with the event, that no evidence whatsoever exists to indicate that Czolgosz ever called himself an Anarchist, we are confronted with the same lie, fabricated by the police and perpetuated by the press. No living soul ever heard Czolgosz make that statement, nor is there a single written word to prove that the boy ever breathed the accusation. Nothing but ignorance and insane hysteria, which have never yet been able to solve the simplest problem of cause and effect.

The President of a free Republic killed! What else can be the cause, except that the Attentäter must have been insane, or that he was incited to the act.

A free Republic! How a myth will maintain itself, how it will continue to deceive, to dupe, and blind even the comparatively intelligent to its monstrous absurdities. A free Republic! And yet within a little over thirty years a small band of parasites have successfully robbed the American people, and trampled upon the fundamental principles, laid down by the fathers of this country, guaranteeing to every man, woman, and child "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." For thirty years they have been increasing their wealth and power at the expense of the vast mass of workers, thereby enlarging the army of the unemployed, the hungry, homeless, and friendless portion of humanity, who are tramping the country from east to west, from north to south, in a vain search for work. For many years the home has been left to the care of the little ones, while the parents are exhausting their life and strength for a mere pittance. For thirty years the sturdy sons of America have been sacrificed on the battlefield of industrial war, and the daughters outraged in corrupt factory surroundings. For long and weary years this process of undermining the nation's health, vigor, and pride, without much protest from the disinherited and oppressed, has been going on. Maddened by success and victory, the money powers of this "free land of ours" became more and more audacious in their heartless, cruel efforts to compete with the rotten and decayed European tyrannies for supremacy of power.

In vain did a lying press repudiate Leon Czolgosz as a foreigner. The boy was a product of our own free American soil, that lulled him to sleep with,

My country, 'tis of thee,

Sweet land of liberty.

Who can tell how many times this American child had gloried in the celebration of the Fourth of July, or of Decoration Day, when he faithfully honored the Nation's dead? Who knows but that he, too, was willing to "fight for his country and die for her liberty," until it dawned upon him that those he belonged to have no country, because they have been robbed of all that they have produced; until he realized that the liberty and independence of his youthful dreams were but a farce. Poor Leon Czolgosz, your crime consisted of too sensitive a social consciousness. Unlike your idealless and brainless American brothers, your ideals soared above the belly and the bank account. No wonder you impressed the one human being among all the infuriated mob at your trial--a newspaper woman--as a visionary, totally oblivious to your surroundings. Your large, dreamy eyes must have beheld a new and glorious dawn.

Now, to a recent instance of police-manufactured Anarchist plots. In that bloodstained city Chicago, the life of Chief of Police Shippy was attempted by a young man named Averbuch. Immediately the cry was sent to the four corners of the world that Averbuch was an Anarchist, and that Anarchists were responsible for the act. Everyone who was at all known to entertain Anarchist ideas was closely watched, a number of people arrested, the library of an Anarchist group confiscated, and all meetings made impossible. It goes without saying that, as on various previous occasions, I must needs be held responsible for the act. Evidently the American police credit me with occult powers. I did not know Averbuch; in fact, had never before heard his name, and the only way I could have possibly "conspired" with him was in my astral body. But, then, the police are not concerned with logic or justice. What they seek is a target, to mask their absolute ignorance of the cause, of the psychology of a political act. Was Averbuch an Anarchist? There is no positive proof of it. He had been but three months in the country, did not know the language, and, as far as I could ascertain, was quite unknown to the Anarchists of Chicago.

What led to his act? Averbuch, like most young Russian immigrants, undoubtedly believed in the mythical liberty of America. He received his first baptism by the policeman's club during the brutal dispersement of the unemployed parade. He further experienced American equality and opportunity in the vain efforts to find an economic master. In short, a three months' sojourn in the glorious land brought him face to face with the fact that the disinherited are in the same position the world over. In his native land he probably learned that necessity knows no law--there was no difference between a Russian and an American policeman.

The question to the intelligent social student is not whether the acts of Czolgosz or Averbuch were practical, any more than whether the thunderstorm is practical. The thing that will inevitably impress itself on the thinking and feeling man and woman is that the sight of brutal clubbing of innocent victims in a so-called free Republic, and the degrading, soul-destroying economic struggle, furnish the spark that kindles the dynamic force in the overwrought, outraged souls of men like Czolgosz or Averbuch. No amount of persecution, of hounding, of repression, can stay this social phenomenon.

But, it is often asked, have not acknowledged Anarchists committed acts of violence? Certainly they have, always however ready to shoulder the responsibility. My contention is that they were impelled, not by the teachings of Anarchism, but by the tremendous pressure of conditions, making life unbearable to their sensitive natures. Obviously, Anarchism, or any other social theory, making man a conscious social unit, will act as a leaven for rebellion. This is not a mere assertion, but a fact verified by all experience. A close examination of the circumstances bearing upon this question will further clarify my position.

Let us consider some of the most important Anarchist acts within the last two decades. Strange as it may seem, one of the most significant deeds of political violence occurred here in America, in connection with the Homestead strike of 1892.

During that memorable time the Carnegie Steel Company organized a conspiracy to crush the Amalgamated Association of Iron and Steel Workers. Henry Clay Frick, then Chairman of the Company, was intrusted with that democratic task. He lost no time in carrying out the policy of breaking the Union, the policy which he had so successfully practiced during his reign of terror in the coke regions. Secretly, and while peace negotiations were being purposely prolonged, Frick supervised the military preparations, the fortification of the Homestead Steel Works, the erection of a high board fence, capped with barbed wire and provided with loopholes for sharpshooters. And then, in the dead of night, he attempted to smuggle his army of hired Pinkerton thugs into Homestead, which act precipitated the terrible carnage of the steel workers. Not content with the death of eleven victims, killed in the Pinkerton skirmish, Henry Clay Frick, good Christian and free American, straightway began the hounding down of the helpless wives and orphans, by ordering them out of the wretched Company houses.

The whole country was aroused over these inhuman outrages. Hundreds of voices were raised in protest, calling on Frick to desist, not to go too far. Yes, hundreds of people protested,--as one objects to annoying flies. Only one there was who actively responded to the outrage at Homestead,--Alexander Berkman. Yes, he was an Anarchist. He gloried in that fact, because it was the only force that made the discord between his spiritual longing and the world without at all bearable. Yet not Anarchism, as such, but the brutal slaughter of the eleven steel workers was the urge for Alexander Berkman's act, his attempt on the life of Henry Clay Frick.

The record of European acts of political violence affords numerous and striking instances of the influence of environment upon sensitive human beings.

The court speech of Vaillant, who, in 1894, exploded a bomb in the Paris Chamber of Deputies, strikes the true keynote of the psychology of such acts:

"Gentlemen, in a few minutes you are to deal your blow, but in receiving your verdict I shall have at least the satisfaction of having wounded the existing society, that cursed society in which one may see a single man spending, uselessly, enough to feed thousands of families; an infamous society which permits a few individuals to monopolize all the social wealth, while there are hundreds of thousands of unfortunates who have not even the bread that is not refused to dogs, and while entire families are committing suicide for want of the necessities of life.

"Ah, gentlemen, if the governing classes could go down among the unfortunates! But no, they prefer to remain deaf to their appeals. It seems that a fatality impels them, like the royalty of the eighteenth century, toward the precipice which will engulf them, for woe be to those who remain deaf to the cries of the starving, woe to those who, believing themselves of superior essence, assume the right to exploit those beneath them! There comes a time when the people no longer reason; they rise like a hurricane, and pass away like a torrent. Then we see bleeding heads impaled on pikes.

"Among the exploited, gentlemen, there are two classes of individuals. Those of one class, not realizing what they are and what they might be, take life as it comes, believe that they are born to be slaves, and content themselves with the little that is given them in exchange for their labor. But there are others, on the contrary, who think, who study, and who, looking about them, discover social iniquities. Is it their fault if they see clearly and suffer at seeing others suffer? Then they throw themselves into the struggle, and make themselves the bearers of the popular claims.

"Gentlemen, I am one of these last. Wherever I have gone, I have seen unfortunates bent beneath the yoke of capital. Everywhere I have seen the same wounds causing tears of blood to flow, even in the remoter parts of the inhabited districts of South America, where I had the right to believe that he who was weary of the pains of civilization might rest in the shade of the palm trees and there study nature. Well, there even, more than elsewhere, I have seen capital come, like a vampire, to suck the last drop of blood of the unfortunate pariahs.

"Then I came back to France, where it was reserved for me to see my family suffer atrociously. This was the last drop in the cup of my sorrow. Tired of leading this life of suffering and cowardice, I carried this bomb to those who are primarily responsible for social misery.

"I am reproached with the wounds of those who were hit by my projectiles. Permit me to point out in passing that, if the bourgeois had not massacred or caused massacres during the Revolution, it is probable that they would still be under the yoke of the nobility. On the other hand, figure up the dead and wounded on Tonquin, Madagascar, Dahomey, adding thereto the thousands, yes, millions of unfortunates who die in the factories, the mines, and wherever the grinding power of capital is felt. Add also those who die of hunger, and all this with the assent of our Deputies. Beside all this, of how little weight are the reproaches now brought against me!

"It is true that one does not efface the other; but, after all, are we not acting on the defensive when we respond to the blows which we receive from above? I know very well that I shall be told that I ought to have confined myself to speech for the vindication of the people's claims. But what can you expect! It takes a loud voice to make the deaf hear. Too long have they answered our voices by imprisonment, the rope, rifle volleys. Make no mistake; the explosion of my bomb is not only the cry of the rebel Vaillant, but the cry of an entire class which vindicates its rights, and which will soon add acts to words. For, be sure of it, in vain will they pass laws. The ideas of the thinkers will not halt; just as, in the last century, all the governmental forces could not prevent the Diderots and the Voltaires from spreading emancipating ideas among the people, so all the existing governmental forces will not prevent the Reclus, the Darwins, the Spencers, the Ibsens, the Mirbeaus, from spreading the ideas of justice and liberty which will annihilate the prejudices that hold the mass in ignorance. And these ideas, welcomed by the unfortunate, will flower in acts of revolt as they have done in me, until the day when the disappearance of authority shall permit all men to organize freely according to their choice, when everyone shall be able to enjoy the product of his labor, and when those moral maladies called prejudices shall vanish, permitting human beings to live in harmony, having no other desire than to study the sciences and love their fellows.

"I conclude, gentlemen, by saying that a society in which one sees such social inequalities as we see all about us, in which we see every day suicides caused by poverty, prostitution flaring at every street corner,--a society whose principal monuments are barracks and prisons,--such a society must be transformed as soon as possible, on pain of being eliminated, and that speedily, from the human race. Hail to him who labors, by no matter what means, for this transformation! It is this idea that has guided me in my duel with authority, but as in this duel I have only wounded my adversary, it is now its turn to strike me.

"Now, gentlemen, to me it matters little what penalty you may inflict, for, looking at this assembly with the eyes of reason, I can not help smiling to see you, atoms lost in matter, and reasoning only because you possess a prolongation of the spinal marrow, assume the right to judge one of your fellows.

"Ah! gentlemen, how little a thing is your assembly and your verdict in the history of humanity; and human history, in its turn, is likewise a very little thing in the whirlwind which bears it through immensity, and which is destined to disappear, or at least to be transformed, in order to begin again the same history and the same facts, a veritably perpetual play of cosmic forces renewing and transferring themselves forever."

Will anyone say that Vaillant was an ignorant, vicious man, or a lunatic? Was not his mind singularly clear and analytic? No wonder that the best intellectual forces of France spoke in his behalf, and signed the petition to President Carnot, asking him to commute Vaillant's death sentence.

Carnot would listen to no entreaty; he insisted on more than a pound of flesh, he wanted Vaillant's life, and then--the inevitable happened: President Carnot was killed. On the handle of the stiletto used by the Attentäter was engraved, significantly,

VAILLANT!

Santa Caserio was an Anarchist. He could have gotten away, saved himself; but he remained, he stood the consequences.

His reasons for the act are set forth in so simple, dignified, and childlike manner that one is reminded of the touching tribute paid Caserio by his teacher of the little village school, Ada Negri, the Italian poet, who spoke of him as a sweet, tender plant, of too fine and sensitive texture to stand the cruel strain of the world.

"Gentlemen of the Jury! I do not propose to make a defense, but only an explanation of my deed.

"Since my early youth I began to learn that present society is badly organized, so badly that every day many wretched men commit suicide, leaving women and children in the most terrible distress. Workers, by thousands, seek for work and can not find it. Poor families beg for food and shiver with cold; they suffer the greatest misery; the little ones ask their miserable mothers for food, and the mothers cannot give it to them, because they have nothing. The few things which the home contained have already been sold or pawned. All they can do is beg alms; often they are arrested as vagabonds.

"I went away from my native place because I was frequently moved to tears at seeing little girls of eight or ten years obliged to work fifteen hours a day for the paltry pay of twenty centimes. Young women of eighteen or twenty also work fifteen hours daily, for a mockery of remuneration. And that happens not only to my fellow countrymen, but to all the workers, who sweat the whole day long for a crust of bread, while their labor produces wealth in abundance. The workers are obliged to live under the most wretched conditions, and their food consists of a little bread, a few spoonfuls of rice, and water; so by the time they are thirty or forty years old, they are exhausted, and go to die in the hospitals. Besides, in consequence of bad food and overwork, these unhappy creatures are, by hundreds, devoured by pellagra--a disease that, in my country, attacks, as the physicians say, those who are badly fed and lead a life of toil and privation.

"I have observed that there are a great many people who are hungry, and many children who suffer, whilst bread and clothes abound in the towns. I saw many and large shops full of clothing and woolen stuffs, and I also saw warehouses full of wheat and Indian corn, suitable for those who are in want. And, on the other hand, I saw thousands of people who do not work, who produce nothing and live on the labor of others; who spend every day thousands of francs for their amusement; who debauch the daughters of the workers; who own dwellings of forty or fifty rooms; twenty or thirty horses, many servants; in a word, all the pleasures of life.

"I believed in God; but when I saw so great an inequality between men, I acknowledged that it was not God who created man, but man who created God. And I discovered that those who want their property to be respected, have an interest in preaching the existence of paradise and hell, and in keeping the people in ignorance.

"Not long ago, Vaillant threw a bomb in the Chamber of Deputies, to protest against the present system of society. He killed no one, only wounded some persons; yet bourgeois justice sentenced him to death. And not satisfied with the condemnation of the guilty man, they began to pursue the Anarchists, and arrest not only those who had known Vaillant, but even those who had merely been present at any Anarchist lecture.

"The government did not think of their wives and children. It did not consider that the men kept in prison were not the only ones who suffered, and that their little ones cried for bread. Bourgeois justice did not trouble itself about these innocent ones, who do not yet know what society is. It is no fault of theirs that their fathers are in prison; they only want to eat.

"The government went on searching private houses, opening private letters, forbidding lectures and meetings, and practicing the most infamous oppressions against us. Even now, hundreds of Anarchists are arrested for having written an article in a newspaper, or for having expressed an opinion in public.

"Gentlemen of the Jury, you are representatives of bourgeois society. If you want my head, take it; but do not believe that in so doing you will stop the Anarchist propaganda. Take care, for men reap what they have sown."

During a religious procession in 1896, at Barcelona, a bomb was thrown. Immediately three hundred men and women were arrested. Some were Anarchists, but the majority were trade-unionists and Socialists. They were thrown into that terrible bastille Montjuich, and subjected to most horrible tortures. After a number had been killed, or had gone insane, their cases were taken up by the liberal press of Europe, resulting in the release of a few survivors.

The man primarily responsible for this revival of the Inquisition was Canovas del Castillo, Prime Minister of Spain. It was he who ordered the torturing of the victims, their flesh burned, their bones crushed, their tongues cut out. Practiced in the art of brutality during his r gime in Cuba, Canovas remained absolutely deaf to the appeals and protests of the awakened civilized conscience.

In 1897 Canovas del Castillo was shot to death by a young Italian, Angiolillo. The latter was an editor in his native land, and his bold utterances soon attracted the attention of the authorities. Persecution began, and Angiolillo fled from Italy to Spain, thence to France and Belgium, finally settling in England. While there he found employment as a compositor, and immediately became the friend of all his colleagues. One of the latter thus described Angiolillo: "His appearance suggested the journalist rather than the disciple of Guttenberg. His delicate hands, moreover, betrayed the fact that he had not grown up at the 'case.' With his handsome frank face, his soft dark hair, his alert expression, he looked the very type of the vivacious Southerner. Angiolillo spoke Italian, Spanish, and French, but no English; the little French I knew was not sufficient to carry on a prolonged conversation. However, Angiolillo soon began to acquire the English idiom; he learned rapidly, playfully, and it was not long until he became very popular with his fellow compositors. His distinguished and yet modest manner, and his consideration towards his colleagues, won him the hearts of all the boys."

Angiolillo soon became familiar with the detailed accounts in the press. He read of the great wave of human sympathy with the helpless victims at Montjuich. On Trafalgar Square he saw with his own eyes the results of those atrocities, when the few Spaniards, who escaped Castillo's clutches, came to seek asylum in England. There, at the great meeting, these men opened their shirts and showed the horrible scars of burned flesh. Angiolillo saw, and the effect surpassed a thousand theories; the impetus was beyond words, beyond arguments, beyond himself even.

Señor Antonio Canovas del Castillo, Prime Minister of Spain, sojourned at Santa Agueda. As usual in such cases, all strangers were kept away from his exalted presence. One exception was made, however, in the case of a distinguished looking, elegantly dressed Italian--the representative, it was understood, of an important journal. The distinguished gentleman was--Angiolillo.

Señor Canovas, about to leave his house, stepped on the veranda. Suddenly Angiolillo confronted him. A shot rang out, and Canovas was a corpse.

The wife of the Prime Minister rushed upon the scene. "Murderer! Murderer!" she cried, pointing at Angiolillo. The latter bowed. "Pardon, Madame," he said, "I respect you as a lady, but I regret that you were the wife of that man."

Calmly Angiolillo faced death. Death in its most terrible form--for the man whose soul was as a child's.

He was garroted. His body lay, sun-kissed, till the day hid in twilight. And the people came, and pointing the finger of terror and fear, they said: "There--the criminal--the cruel murderer."

How stupid, how cruel is ignorance! It misunderstands always, condemns always.

A remarkable parallel to the case of Angiolillo is to be found in the act of Gaetano Bresci, whose Attentat upon King Umberto made an American city famous.

Bresci came to this country, this land of opportunity, where one has but to try to meet with golden success. Yes, he too would try to succeed. He would work hard and faithfully. Work had no terrors for him, if it would only help him to independence, manhood, self-respect.

Thus full of hope and enthusiasm he settled in Paterson, New Jersey, and there found a lucrative job at six dollars per week in one of the weaving mills of the town. Six whole dollars per week was, no doubt, a fortune for Italy, but not enough to breathe on in the new country. He loved his little home. He was a good husband and devoted father to his bambina Bianca, whom he adored. He worked and worked for a number of years. He actually managed to save one hundred dollars out of his six dollars per week.

Bresci had an ideal. Foolish, I know, for a workingman to have an ideal,--the Anarchist paper published in Paterson, La Questione Sociale.

Every week, though tired from work, he would help to set up the paper. Until later hours he would assist, and when the little pioneer had exhausted all resources and his comrades were in despair, Bresci brought cheer and hope, one hundred dollars, the entire savings of years. That would keep the paper afloat.

In his native land people were starving. The crops had been poor, and the peasants saw themselves face to face with famine. They appealed to their good King Umberto; he would help. And he did. The wives of the peasants who had gone to the palace of the King, held up in mute silence their emaciated infants. Surely that would move him. And then the soldiers fired and killed those poor fools.

Bresci, at work in the weaving mill at Paterson, read of the horrible massacre. His mental eye beheld the defenceless women and innocent infants of his native land, slaughtered right before the good King. His soul recoiled in horror. At night he heard the groans of the wounded. Some may have been his comrades, his own flesh. Why, why these foul murders?

The little meeting of the Italian Anarchist group in Paterson ended almost in a fight. Bresci had demanded his hundred dollars. His comrades begged, implored him to give them a respite. The paper would go down if they were to return him his loan. But Bresci insisted on its return.

How cruel and stupid is ignorance. Bresci got the money, but lost the good will, the confidence of his comrades. They would have nothing more to do with one whose greed was greater than his ideals.

On the twenty-ninth of July, 1900, King Umberto was shot at Monzo. The young Italian weaver of Paterson, Gaetano Bresci, had taken the life of the good King.

Paterson was placed under police surveillance, everyone known as an Anarchist hounded and persecuted, and the act of Bresci ascribed to the teachings of Anarchism. As if the teachings of Anarchism in its extremest form could equal the force of those slain women and infants, who had pilgrimed to the King for aid. As if any spoken word, ever so eloquent, could burn into a human soul with such white heat as the lifeblood trickling drop by drop from those dying forms. The ordinary man is rarely moved either by word or deed; and those whose social kinship is the greatest living force need no appeal to respond--even as does steel to the magnet--to the wrongs and horrors of society.

If a social theory is a strong factor inducing acts of political violence, how are we to account for the recent violent outbreaks in India, where Anarchism has hardly been born. More than any other old philosophy, Hindu teachings have exalted passive resistance, the drifting of life, the Nirvana, as the highest spiritual ideal. Yet the social unrest in India is daily growing, and has only recently resulted in an act of political violence, the killing of Sir Curzon Wyllie by the Hindu Madar Sol Dhingra.

If such a phenomenon can occur in a country socially and individually permeated for centuries with the spirit of passivity, can one question the tremendous, revolutionizing effect on human character exerted by great social iniquities? Can one doubt the logic, the justice of these words:

"Repression, tyranny, and indiscriminate punishment of innocent men have been the watchwords of the government of the alien domination in India ever since we began the commercial boycott of English goods. The tiger qualities of the British are much in evidence now in India. They think that by the strength of the sword they will keep down India! It is this arrogance that has brought about the bomb, and the more they tyrannize over a helpless and unarmed people, the more terrorism will grow. We may deprecate terrorism as outlandish and foreign to our culture, but it is inevitable as long as this tyranny continues, for it is not the terrorists that are to be blamed, but the tyrants who are responsible for it. It is the only resource for a helpless and unarmed people when brought to the verge of despair. It is never criminal on their part. The crime lies with the tyrant." 4

Even conservative scientists are beginning to realize that heredity is not the sole factor moulding human character. Climate, food, occupation; nay, color, light, and sound must be considered in the study of human psychology.

If that be true, how much more correct is the contention that great social abuses will and must influence different minds and temperaments in a different way. And how utterly fallacious the stereotyped notion that the teachings of Anarchism, or certain exponents of these teachings, are responsible for the acts of political violence.

Anarchism, more than any other social theory, values human life above things. All Anarchists agree with Tolstoy in this fundamental truth: if the production of any commodity necessitates the sacrifice of human life, society should do without that commodity, but it can not do without that life. That, however, nowise indicates that Anarchism teaches submission. How can it, when it knows that all suffering, all misery, all ills, result from the evil of submission?

Has not some American ancestor said, many years ago, that resistance to tyranny is obedience to God? And he was not an Anarchist even. It would say that resistance to tyranny is man's highest ideal. So long as tyranny exists, in whatever form, man's deepest aspiration must resist it as inevitably as man must breathe.

Compared with the wholesale violence of capital and government, political acts of violence are but a drop in the ocean. That so few resist is the strongest proof how terrible must be the conflict between their souls and unbearable social iniquities.

High strung, like a violin string, they weep and moan for life, so relentless, so cruel, so terribly inhuman. In a desperate moment the string breaks. Untuned ears hear nothing but discord. But those who feel the agonized cry understand its harmony; they hear in it the fulfillment of the most compelling moment of human nature.

Such is the psychology of political violence.
by Heckman
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 9:19 AM
This man is one of your activist brothers. You share the blame for the death of an honorable man.
by and
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 9:22 AM
human beings can be dissolved, by the state.
by thx1138
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 10:04 AM
Andy will spend the rest of his life as a guest of the state.

In terms of ideas, this article commits several grave errors.

1. It doesn't say anything new.
2. Some of it is actually false.
3. It doesn't do the progressive cause any good.

Furthermore, if he actually did kill a police officer (as it seems he did) to make a point about corporate irresponsibility, he's a common murderer who deserves to rot in prison for the rest of his days. The common ordinary cop is not (necessarily) the enemy. They are workers involved with a difficult task of dealing with criminal assholes. Some do take their "job" a little more seriously than they should, and commit atrocious acts of violence and corruption that a fair and free society should not tolerate.

At the same time, if some crackhead clocks me with a bat for $27, a ballpoint pen, and a box of cough drops, the constabulary should be notified with a description so they can apprehend the violent moron and give him some time to think about his violent acts of ignorance. If some testosterone poisoned shithead with anger management problems strangles his wife for being late with dinner, the cops should be informed so they can track his stupid ass down for a permanent stay in the local pen.

The police, as much as I find them distasteful as a group, are not the enemy. Also, if Andy was so intent on making a statement, he should have iced some slathering plutocrat, or some other member of the ruling kleptocracy, not some underpaid civil servant.

Now as to my points:

1. It doesn't say anything new.
This is obvious. It doesn't. We have been apprised of these facts (that the government is corrupt and owned by corporations) for quite some time now. Heck - Nader ran for president and got several percent of the vote on JUST THAT VERY POINT. Andy did not need to go hurt anyone to state the obvious.

2. Some of it is demonstrably false.

"Hermann Goering, Hitler’s master of propaganda, explained the process like this- "

Goering was the head of the Luftwaffe, not propaganda. He had a significant hand in NAZI affairs, but "Hitler's Master of Propaganda" was Goebbels.

Also, invoking the NAZIs is not a good way to bolster one's argument, as it tends to invoke Godwin's Law. Look it up. The Goering thing noted above is just one of several factual errors. If you're going to write a diatribe, get your facts straight.

3. Terrorist acts like this are acts of ignorance and do NOTHING to further progressive aims of peace, truth, freedom, and justice. Such acts come from a loathsome and elitist perspective which does nothing to further the cause. Actual change comes from organising people to act in a group out of shared self interest as a group. When people get together to act in the common cause, *then change happens*. Terroristic idiots shooting cops doesn't accomplish much of anything except shatter families and clutter the prison system with misguided murderers. When the anarchist Leon Czolgosz, shot McKinley, did that stop American imperialism? Hell No. Did the Unabomber stop the march of technology? Hell No. Did thousands of people marching on Birmingham change voting rights laws? Hell YES! Did millions of people marching in parades and protests in the USA help stop the Viet Nam war? Hell YES! Did millions of men and women marching on Washington help the ERA pass congress? Yup. Sure did. Even though the ERA failed in the states, feminism did not go away, and is still a powerful force for progressive change in this, and many other, countries.

THAT'S HOW THINGS CHANGE. People with common cause and shared interests getting together to fight evil - that's how you change things. Shooting Cops is just plain stupid. Cops just do as they're told. If they're told to go arrest corporate criminals, I'm sure they would do it with as much gusto and amusement as they would in apprehending the likes of Andy CopKiller. Converting the police to your side means being THEIR BOSS. Someone has to sign their pay cheques. ELECT PROGRESSIVE PEOPLE to your city or town council. Inform and organise your neighbours. Yes- the couple upstairs who watch TV all day. The family with the screaming kids across the hall. The guy in the suburban ranch next door who sells propane - get HIM on your side. If your message is clearly and calmly brought across, and you can show how the truth of your position will benefit them, you will shine and convince.

But shooting cops? Dumb Idea #1. With a bullet.
by Grobelaar
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 10:08 AM
...to protect and serve what?

Well property of course, crumbs you people didn't think it was people. People replace themselves very efficiently, something to do with biology. Property on the other hand is expensive....

What did you think was meant when people said Possession is 9/10 of the law...

Consider the fact that in the UK you get 25 years for armed bank robbery and only 'Life' (out in 10 years) for murder and even less for rape...
by Nick Siligo
(s4nmcdon [at] rbuhsd.k12.ca.us) Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 10:11 AM
This dude is a completed coward. He came up and killed officer Dave Mobilio for no reason. Dave has a wife and kid. Now, how are they going to live without a husband and a father?
by Nick Siligo
(s4nmcdon [at] rbuhsd.k12.ca.us) Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 10:13 AM
This dude is a completed coward. He came up and killed officer Dave Mobilio for no reason. Dave has a wife and kid. Now, how are they going to live without a husband and a father?
by Owen
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 10:15 AM

Those who have had no share in the good fortunes of the mighty often have a share in their misfortunes. Bertold Brecht The Caucasian Chalk Circle 1949

by Dodie
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 10:16 AM
Bring him to us here in Red Bluff!!!!!
by Cop
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 10:23 AM
What the hell! Go find another chunk of this earth and set up your little utopia. This freak and the others in here like Alciere, etc. should be put out to sea in four person rafts and set adrift in the predominant tides. if they wash back up to the shores of this fine country, incarcerate them within the same room and let their little utopian dream become a reality... they'll soon learn the lesson of "The Prince". If they opt to escape from their little utopian building... put them to work in factories assembling furniture, on the street driving cabs and buses, in the hospitals tending to the sick and injured, ... you know, lead them down that frightful and tormented path that the rest of us have had to travel for so long... self sufficiency without government or corporate subsistence!

Yeah, if we make them work for a living then they'd all want out!

Rot in hell McRae!!!

A cop in Olympia!
by Cherry
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 10:26 AM
I do believe that he does have some valid points in his umm...speach...but, I don't think he's getting anything accomplished by shooting someone. Especially a police officer. Now he's going to do a good chunck of time and he'll be forgotten about in a week or two. Poor sap.
by just curious
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 10:35 AM
Yesterday, Andrew McCrae was arrested for the murder of a Red Bluff, CA (Sacramento area) police officer after the FBI was tipped to a couple of his posts that appeared on this site, sf.indymedia.org.

I questioned why the SF-IMC staff did not promote this story with obvious local connections to a front-page feautre. The rude replies I recieved were genuinely obstinate and unhelpful.

See my questions and nessie's callous replies on this thread: http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/11/1543744_comment.php#1546069

Now the story about how "some guy got shot, That's not news" doesn't appear anywhere on the front page--not even the far-right side column. Does this seem strange to you?

Then consider that the Portland IMC and IMC global sites are prominently featuring this story prominently in center column on their respective home pages. (Portland actually has two, count-em two, center column features regarding the story.)

For SF-IMC to pretend this story isn't important and doesn't have an obvious local connection just makes this site look like they have something to hide. SF-IMC should do the right thing and feature this important local story the same way Portland IMC and IMC global has.
by 2lab
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 10:48 AM
"Bring him to us here in Red Bluff!!!!!"

You seem angry, Dodie, maybe you'd like to kill this man, If so you must now understand why people who see their families killed by US policies want to kill US citizens.
by pissed off
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 11:30 AM
screw you Dodie! What would you do if he came here? Or when he comes? You will sit on your fat ass and cuss at the tv. Dave deserved to die. He is or was a Child molestor.
by DC
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 11:31 AM
You're a dillusional left wing extremist. I'll note here, that corporations employ the citizens of our country. They provide our goods, and most companies actively allow themselves to become "bought out" by allowing that percentage of their company to be sold. The competition that drives the greed you see occuring, is the same competition that lets you get low cost goods.

Next bear in mind that you are not paying for their rugs. The richest people in this country, despite their write offs and legal maneuvering, still pay quite a bit larger sum then the rest of us per person and a huge percentage overall. Percentage based tax cuts are adversial to leftists, because it actually means someone might keep more of their own money then you would like. A leftist only thinks taxation is wrong when its from them. The same people you hate are the ones that allow your family to pay for their home.

Next, you should remember that your jealousy at people holding more wealth then you is pathetic. They don't make their money through cheating and stealing, and I know many people who've accrued a pretty sum of money starting with little to nothing. They may not be Bill Gates, but they hold their own farely well, through hard work and ingenuity. You'd do well to try and emulate that, rather then bitching at everyone making more then you as if they screwed you.

Why don't you stop your whining, get a job, and if you want to change the way things work instead of being a self righteous jackass you can actually go out and make things better by running for office. You'll learn two things from running for office. A) Half of your ideas will be shot down with cold hard fact. B) You'll realize that the average citizen doesn't agree with you for very good reasons.

Stop the trolling.
by A Cop
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 11:40 AM
(WTF • wrote....
"..out on the streets protecting us from trash like you!"
"Protecting you? That's a laugh.....
THE POLICE ARE NOT OBLIGATED TO PROTECT ANY INDIVIDUAL PERSON FROM HARM
This section serves to illuminate the existence of bad Police policy, anti-rights legislation, a domestic threat, and poor judicial remedy. The following true story is unacceptable, intolerable, and must be prevented from re-occurring ...

"Ruth Brunell called the police on 20 different occasions to beg for protection from her husband. He was arrested only one time. One evening Mr. Brunell telephoned his wife and told her he was coming over to kill her. When she called the police, they refused her request that they come to protect her. They told her to call back when he got there. Mr. Brunell stabbed his wife to death before she could call the police to tell them he was there. The court held that the San Jose police were not liable for ignoring Mrs. Brunell's pleas for help. Hartzler v. City of San Jose, (1975) 46 Cal.App. 3d 6.

But doesn't just about every Law Enforcement Agency's "Mission Statement" include the words "... to serve and protect ...." ? So then protect what? Obviously it isn't the people . . . ")


I have not personally verified Hartzler v. City of San Jose, (1975) before writing this, but based on training I have received I believe this to be correct. It is true that the police can't be held liable for other people's actions. The police can only be held liable for individuals in their custody or in situations in which they have placed an individual in greater danger than they were already in through some act of negligence. So why is this a bad thing? Would you rather live in a true "police state" where the police had so much monitoring and control over individuals that they would take on the liability of of truely being responsible for others actions? That is a fictional world and no one wants to live like that. We live in a free democratic society. The police are not and can not be personal body guards. For one thing, society does not want to pay for that level of service. Individuals are responsible for their own actions and their own personal protection. That does not mean that law enforcement agencies do not try to live up to their mission statements to "serve and protect". Police have a responsibility to protect "society" and not any one "individual". Police protect the society they work for every day by taking dangerous criminals off the streets, gathering terrorist intelligence, dispursing riots, preventing crime, enforcing traffic laws, educating the public, and responding to crimes in progress where they DO risk their lives protecting individuals from dangerous criminals. The fact that "THE POLICE ARE NOT OBLIGATED TO PROTECT ANY INDIVIDUAL PERSON FROM HARM" really only means that they can not be held civilly or criminally liable for another individual's criminal actions. That criminal is the liable party. I would like to point out that the police's response to domestic violence situations has improved greatly since this case in 1975. Domestic violence is now a felony in most states as opposed to mostly misdemeanor crimes back then. The police can also now request for Emergency Protective Orders. In the past their was a tendency by some police to view domestic situations as private matters and thus they tended to not get involved as much or make as many arrests. This attitude by police as well as the laws have changed since then giving the police more tools to deal with domestic violence.

I am a police officer and proud of it. My career allows me to do more good for society than many people ever do. My thoughts go out to Officer Mobilio and his family. Justice will be served but he can never be replaced.
by Rob
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 11:52 AM
1. Want to make a differance? - VOTE
2. The poblem is not our government or bussiness, but a few individuals that take advantage of the system or take matters into their own hands. If you feel that bussiness has to large of a grip on our governments the thing of this: The one thing big bussiness can not buy, is our individual vote. Be informed and make smart dicissions. This is the greatest threat to special interest groups.
by Rob
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 11:55 AM
1. Want to make a difference? - VOTE
2. The problem is not our government or business, but a few individuals that take advantage of the system to further their wealth or the individuals take matters into their own hands. If you feel that business has to large of a grip on our government, Please READ: The one thing big business cannot buy, is our individual vote. Be informed and make smart decisions. This is the greatest threat to special interest groups.
by Timmy Jackson
(neptune603 [at] usa.com) Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 11:57 AM
Jeezus, Andy...

I agree with all of your ideas here, but killing a cop? That's a good way to make people consider your ideas extremist and ignore them, then return to their sellout lives.

by Robin Skyler
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 11:59 AM
Would it be possible to edit the link that's screwing up the text wrapping on this page? This has become kind of an important historical document, and it ought to be readable.
by nope
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 12:00 PM
First off, I do not agree with murder, PERIOD. Not by Andy McCrae, not by any police officer, not by George Bush's army, not by Osama Bin Laden, not by the CIA, or the FBI, and not by any multi-national corporation.

The big picture here is that we are living in a world of attrocity. US history is written in blood, and continues to be EVERYDAY. Those who have posted so far seem to be focusing on a small aspect of the situation. With varying degrees of intelligence most seem to be decrying the death of the good police officer. I agree, murder is wrong. I think what Andy is trying to get across in his letter though, (and it appears as though the murder is his way of getting his letter "out") is to draw attention to various types of murder and wrong doings that go on everyday in our society that are continually looked over because they make up the "fabric" of our society. I think what Andy is most trying to point out is the way that corporations in our society are allowed to "murder," and face no responsability for their actions. Corporations exist to obtain profit, not to care for people, not to provide security. They have the privilege of setting the rules, because they can afford to buy influence in our government. If you do the research youll find that a lot of high ups in Bush's cabinet are former lobbyists for corporations. Still receieving $$ from them no doubt. Anyhow, what I'm trying to say is that Andy sees soemthing wrong with how our society is working. He is right. He was desperate to make change, and to expose people to the truth that he has discovered. I do not agree with what he did. Don't ignore his message because of the awful decision he made to express it.

Someone who took a much better path in getting the word out about the REALITY of corporate control is
Thom Hartmann. His book UNEQUAL PROTECTION is incredible, and outlines the way in which we can begin to take back power from the corporations that are controlling our food, our news, our environment, our water, our government, OUR LIVES. Please read it and see the big picture.

We are now entered a time of needed change. What is life worth if we are to live in fear of each other? We must realize who has brought us to this point, and realize the necessary steps to begin living in a better world now. I want my children to live in a better world.
We give up too much control to those whose only interest lies in making $$, and consolidating power.
Im taking my life back, how about you?
by pissed off
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 12:05 PM

THE BIG PICTURE IS DAVE WAS A CHILD MOLESTOR WHO HAND CUFFED LITTLE CHILDREN AND LIKED TO WATCH THEM SQUIRM

by Oscar Beard
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 12:06 PM
I've been reading the mails from all this, and it has made me think more. Thought I better add too, after looking at my last mail, i don't condone violence, killing cops isn't going to do anything, except get every suspected anti-capitalist under surveillance, and listed and a terrorist organisation.
The good work i meant of Andy was the piece he had put out here on the site, not killing a cop.
He knows, but as many of you have said, this is a bad blow for those who don't agree with how the world is going. This is going to leave it open for the governments to do whatever they want in the fight against internal dissent.
I mean, after all, if you don't like the way of today's world there must be something wrong with you, right?
It couldn't possibly be that the world has really turned into a bad place, could it?
And we all know why. That's why we are looking at web sites like this.
Take care everyone reading this, finding this story out has been a bad day for me.

by 23
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 12:15 PM
Andy, you and your friends and allies on this site are true pieces of the rankest shit on this earth. Why don't all of you save us alot of tax dollars and blow your own heads off. The world would be such a better place. Thanks.
by .
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 12:16 PM
i dunno how you can say that rob...look at last years election, your vote doesn't mean shit.
by BUBBA
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 12:32 PM
YOUR A BIGGER IDIOT THAN THE COP KILLER, BUT WE HAVE A ROPE FOR YOU TO! WE'LL SHOW YOU !
by Troy Prouty*
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 12:41 PM
Dodie makes little sense.

He uses the Bible to jusitfy the death of a person. A person guilty of murder.

Violence and death have no belonging in our lifes.

This is the problem with religion, this is why I believe religion to be bad.

We say in one hand love thy neighbor, in the other we say an eye for an eye. What crock !!

death sentences are nothing more then justifying murder and have little to do with true punishment.

Anger is nothing more then a disease that takes victims and makes then react foolishly.
by kicker25
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 12:44 PM
This is unbelievable. The world is a screwed up place. There are crooked cops and crooked corporations, but there are also honest cops and honest corporations. I personally dont see how killing Dave Mobilio proved a point, other than whoever killed him has a really f**ked up view on life.
by Troy prouty*
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 12:45 PM
Your mother should keep you from posting crap like that.

Obviously a close minded twit of some sort. You will find that Andy was very inteliigent in his writing, what happened it very common, people become frustrated and then dwell on events and flip to extremes. What triggers this remains a mystery, however we know it to be a chemical imbalance, cause unknown.

by Straight Zipper Merge
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 12:48 PM
Next time, kill us a fucking Senator, or Pentagon Chief of Staff, or even the President, for fuck sakes!

Useless fucking bastard.
by troy prouty*
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 12:52 PM
You lack intelligence in your writing style and it should not be posted here. Take language like that elsewhere!
by troy prouty*
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 12:52 PM
You lack intelligence in your writing style and it should not be posted here. Take language like that elsewhere!
by troy prouty*
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 12:52 PM
You lack intelligence in your writing style and it should not be posted here. Take language like that elsewhere!
by troy prouty*
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 12:52 PM
You lack intelligence in your writing style and it should not be posted here. Take language like that elsewhere!
by Straight Zipper Merge
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 12:55 PM
I don't think I got it the first four times.

Retard.
by troy prouty
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 1:01 PM
Obvious to me glopus, that you have never heard the word - Improve.

Many people seek to make a better life of America and make sure that the family of the future have somthing better then now.

Capitalism has a whole, is a failure, because we changed the way it was intended.

The world and America can be a better place, and having the attitude agree with something or leave, makes one wonder who is the programmed one here? maybe you Glopus?

spoon fed like so many, what a shame and a waste of space - between your ears. spoon Fed is a sad way to go through life, wouldn't you agree?
by troy prouty
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 1:02 PM
Obvious to me glopus, that you have never heard the word - Improve.

Many people seek to make a better life of America and make sure that the family of the future have somthing better then now.

Capitalism has a whole, is a failure, because we changed the way it was intended.

The world and America can be a better place, and having the attitude agree with something or leave, makes one wonder who is the programmed one here? maybe you Glopus?

spoon fed like so many, what a shame and a waste of space - between your ears. spoon Fed is a sad way to go through life, wouldn't you agree?
by troy prouty
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 1:20 PM
The only person responsible for andy's actions is andy himself, no one else.

I see you are also spoon fed !

To believe that people have control in others is foolish.

Can terrorism be stopped? of course not, it will always exists, because terrorism is usually the final utterence of voices unheard.

To simply attack people inside other countries and call this defeating terrorism is a false sense of security, because by destroying others, you are also creating future enemies.

Similar to putting metal detectors in school, is this solving the problem? or is this just covering up a bigger problem as a whole?
by troy prouty
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 1:25 PM
The only person responsible for andy's actions is andy himself, no one else.

I see you are also spoon fed !

To believe that people have control in others is foolish.

Can terrorism be stopped? of course not, it will always exists, because terrorism is usually the final utterence of voices unheard.

To simply attack people inside other countries and call this defeating terrorism is a false sense of security, because by destroying others, you are also creating future enemies.

Similar to putting metal detectors in school, is this solving the problem? or is this just covering up a bigger problem as a whole?
by troy prouty
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 1:25 PM
The only person responsible for andy's actions is andy himself, no one else.

I see you are also spoon fed !

To believe that people have control in others is foolish.

Can terrorism be stopped? of course not, it will always exists, because terrorism is usually the final utterence of voices unheard.

To simply attack people inside other countries and call this defeating terrorism is a false sense of security, because by destroying others, you are also creating future enemies.

Similar to putting metal detectors in school, is this solving the problem? or is this just covering up a bigger problem as a whole?
by troy prouty
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 1:25 PM
The only person responsible for andy's actions is andy himself, no one else.

I see you are also spoon fed !

To believe that people have control in others is foolish.

Can terrorism be stopped? of course not, it will always exists, because terrorism is usually the final utterence of voices unheard.

To simply attack people inside other countries and call this defeating terrorism is a false sense of security, because by destroying others, you are also creating future enemies.

Similar to putting metal detectors in school, is this solving the problem? or is this just covering up a bigger problem as a whole?
by JOHN
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 1:27 PM
IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN NORMAL FOR YOU IN YOUR CHILDHOOD TO GIVE YOUR DADDY HEAD. AND FATHERING A CHILD WITH YOUR MOTHER, BUT ANY ATTEMPT TO DISCREDIT THE GOODNESS OF DAVE WILL FAIL. ALSO I CAN ALMOST AGREE SOME COPS DONT DO A GOOD JOB. WHY IS ANDY STILL BREATHING. YOU ANTI GOVERNMENT IDIOTS SHOULD KNOW THAT IN CALIFORNIA ANDY WILL LIVE ATLEAST ANOTHER 30 TO 40 YEARS ONCE HE IS CONVICTED IN A COURT OF LAW COSTING CALIFORNIANS MILLIONS OF DOLLARS SO HE CAN HAVE HIS THREE HOT MEALS, HIS CABLE TELEVISION, AND ALL THE OTHER RIGHTS THAT INMATES HAVE. IT IS UNBELIEVABLE THAT THIS GUY WILL GET MORE PRIVELAGES THAN A PERSON MAKING A LIVING WHO CANT AFFORD CABLE. THAT IS THE INJUSTICE. OH YEA DONT FORGET WE PROVIDE THEM FREE MEDICAL CARE INCLUDING DENTAL, THEY CAN EVEN GET BRACES IF THEY WANT.
by JOHN
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 1:27 PM
IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN NORMAL FOR YOU IN YOUR CHILDHOOD TO GIVE YOUR DADDY HEAD. AND FATHERING A CHILD WITH YOUR MOTHER, BUT ANY ATTEMPT TO DISCREDIT THE GOODNESS OF DAVE WILL FAIL. ALSO I CAN ALMOST AGREE SOME COPS DONT DO A GOOD JOB. WHY IS ANDY STILL BREATHING. YOU ANTI GOVERNMENT IDIOTS SHOULD KNOW THAT IN CALIFORNIA ANDY WILL LIVE ATLEAST ANOTHER 30 TO 40 YEARS ONCE HE IS CONVICTED IN A COURT OF LAW COSTING CALIFORNIANS MILLIONS OF DOLLARS SO HE CAN HAVE HIS THREE HOT MEALS, HIS CABLE TELEVISION, AND ALL THE OTHER RIGHTS THAT INMATES HAVE. IT IS UNBELIEVABLE THAT THIS GUY WILL GET MORE PRIVELAGES THAN A PERSON MAKING A LIVING WHO CANT AFFORD CABLE. THAT IS THE INJUSTICE. OH YEA DONT FORGET WE PROVIDE THEM FREE MEDICAL CARE INCLUDING DENTAL, THEY CAN EVEN GET BRACES IF THEY WANT.
by NAT FORREST
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 1:38 PM
Send ole andy on down to Mississippi.We know how to handle cop killers.We would be tickled to let the officer's wife kick the bucket out from under the worthless piece of crap while his neck is tied to a limb of one of our sturdy oaks.
by Brotherhood
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 1:38 PM
One word to describe Daryle, Moron!!!!!

by troy prouty
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 1:44 PM
Just to let you know - Your also a spineless little twit, you when faced with something, - runs in fear. Most americans are. That is why , they are taught to never question authority, this is also why it is so easy for capitalism to take advantage of it, and also the reason those who are spineless, think that voting represents freedom.
by WHY?
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 1:48 PM
How can you say Dave was a child molester, what evidence do you have? Is it your anger or lack of intelligence? Did you know Dave or are you just a complete idiot? Dave didn't deserve to die by some coward that shot him in the back, and then walk up to him and shoot him in the head! What about his son, Luke, who will never know his dad. Never be able to say "I love you dad" he never got a chance to, because of some cowardly act.
by one of the editors
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 1:56 PM
OK, I just did that. In the future, don't post links longer than the screen is wide.

Instead, use : http://makeashorterlink.com/index.php
by Troy Prouty*
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 1:58 PM
One that helps in the protection of the governor - no less?

A State government who - Is not obeying the law set by the State, and over turning initiatives for no real reason, because they do not like them.

A sorry state of affairs to say the least. Intiative 776 - Ignored.

I-51 - ignored by three counties and adding gas tax.

I-53 being taken to court

Monarail - King County trying to have it thrown out.

It is no wonder, so many people are dismayed and do crazy unthinkable things.

At some point - when, I do not know, the police must ask itself, are they protecting the people, or are they protecting the dictatorship that is now ruling, only americans are to stupid to see it.

but the future is clear, Capitalism is taking its hold, has seen in the recession and america will no longer be able to ignore the warning signs, Jobs are leaving and not being replaced so that few within the States can become more wealthy.

This gives those with money, political power and that power needs to laws that only protects them and destroys society as a whole. Eventually this will lead to a rebellion, in which the police will have to decide, where do they stand?

Once chosen the consequences will take hold, people will unite and a new government will be put into place to replace the government that was considered greedy.

I ask you this - What side will you be on?
violence is a shame, and it is something that should be avoided, but when there are no alternatives, and people are dying at the hands of their own government, because it is controlled by the wealthy, and it either time to fight or die, which path will you follow, those of communist russia police, or china - The future of the United States, or those of the people.

Make no mistake, this future awaits, unless changes are made. If anything Andy is an example of things to come, but not yet needed.

by troy prouty*
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 2:02 PM
Talk about being spoon fed.

"we need the wealthy",
yeah right,

"no" Dc, the weealthy needs us, without the people, they would not be wealthy.

I tell you what - I am in a good mood today - There is some books - written by a man named David Korten - Go get them and read them. Get an education inside someone who taught at Harvard.
by Troy Prouty
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 2:06 PM
vote - makes a difference - Who directs the choices rob? companies by monies given to those running.

voting does not represent freedom.

To be honest - until you get rid of corporate monies and parties, there is not a lot a person can do.

If you think running will do it, you would only be kidding yourself, you see how the system is set up rob, they will make it so you lose and can't get in the door.

Taking money from companies should be a conflict of interest.
by troy prouty
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 2:09 PM
with your brains - You should be careful, you might hurt yourself with a rope, or for that matter - anything you can touch.

can you say the following Bubba:

Repeat 3 times faster and faster:

I am so
far king
we todd it !
by Todd
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 2:12 PM
From the cops that want to harass you;

"It is not easy. In California we average one cop for every 2000 people.
About 60% of those cops are on patrol, where we do most of the harassing.
One-fifth of that 60% are on duty at any moment and available for harassing
people. So, one cop is responsible for harassing about 10,000 residents. When
you toss in the commercial, business, and tourist locations that attract
people from other areas, sometimes you have a situation where a single cop is
responsible for harassing 20,000 or more people a day. A ten-hour shift runs
36,000 seconds. This gives a cop one second to harass a person, and
three-fourths of a second to eat a donut AND then find a new person to
harass. This is not an easy task. Most cops are not up to it day in and day
out. It is just too tiring. What we do is utilize some tools to help us
narrow down those, which we harass. They are as follows:

PHONE: People will call us up and point out things that cause us to focus
on a person for special harassment. "My neighbor is beating his wife" is a
code phrase we use. Then we come out and give special harassment. Another
popular one on a weeknight is, "The kids next door are having a party."

CARS: We have special cops assigned to harass people who drive. They like
to harass the drivers of fast cars, cars blasting music, cars with expired
registration stickers and the like. It is lots of fun when you pick them out
of traffic for nothing more obvious than running a red light. Sometimes you
get to really heap the harassment on when you find they have drugs in the
car, are drunk, or have a warrant.

RUNNERS: Some people take off running just at the sight of a police
officer. Nothing is quite as satisfying as running after them like a beagle
on the scent of a bunny. When you catch them you can harass them for hours.

CODES: When you can think of nothing else to do, there are books that give
ideas for reasons to harass folks. They are called "Codes"; Penal, Vehicle,
Health and Safety, Business and Professions... They all spell out all sorts
of things for which you can really mess with people. After you read the code,
you can just drive around for a while until you find someone violating one of
these listed offenses and harass them. Just last week I saw a guy smash a car
window. Well, the code says that is not allowed. That meant I got permission
to harass this guy.

It is a pretty cool system that we have set up, and it works pretty well.

I seem to have a never-ending supply of folks to harass. And we get away
with it. Why? Because the good citizens who pay the tab like that we keep the
streets safe for them.

Next time you are in my town, give me a single finger wave. That is a
signal that you wish for me to take a little closer look at you, and maybe
I'll find a reason to harass YOU.

Looking forward to meeting you."
by Siobhan
(PoorExcuse1 [at] netscape.net) Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 2:20 PM
Excuse the lack of spaces i broke the keyboard and can't afford a new one...

But I Am An Anarchist...And iAgree wiht every word you say... killing the cop... You Had Your Reasons i see... maybe something else would have grabbed attention also... but anyways...

I hate the way the world is... And i know i dont want war becuase i in no way want to help the american government the way it is but i do get angry and violent towards..thiss world and it' lack or action we need to something but i ass the youth of america am told that i just want to revolt adn it will pass.....well fuck you.....

yes...i want a culture revolution...I just hate not having any say in how my very own life i run.....i hate control... schools are now prisons... where they screw with your mind and brainwash you... The very pledge that i refuse to say every day has oppression bleeding from it...

i get yelled at... called a..terrorist... and i got 1 day In school suspension insteadof 5 days out... because i wrote on my desk i wrote things like:NoOneIsFreeWhileOthersAreOpressed...... YouDon'tHaveToBeARascistToBeANaziFuck,YourMindlessssNationalismGivesYouCruedentials Enough.........(theFirstAmendment)DOES NOT EXIST..................FuckBush.....America:LandofTheEnslaved... HomeOfTheBrainwashed.....i drew:TheNaziSymbolCrossedOut......GodBlessTheFascists...

That general kind of thing adn they wouldn't let me waah it because the police are getting involved and that get me a recommendation for expulsion.....WHAT THE FUCK!!!!!!????I Thought there was freedom of speech... I guess there really is no 1st amendment... i was right after all... though i wish i weren't

I Have A Certain hate-with-a-passion... for the american public because of their mindlesssness and unwillingness to listen to anyone but those who speak or the GREAT AMERICA INVINCIBLE!!!!

This brings about many emotions that i dont know what to do with so i get pissed off and i'm in the minority so i can't do anything... I dont hate americans.....i'm not rascist... i just hate the gov't... capitalists... fascists(Bush).....oppressors.....dictators.....in this Social Democracy.....poor excuse..for one might i add

The brainwashed need to be helped but how?we need to unite stand together make a change i know all this yes......but.....HOW?.....i dont know but we need to do it unite some sort of "party" ifwe get together they can't stop us they NEED us to get the money by themselves wihtout us they are alone... they are nothing...we should revolt we need a revolution not an apthetic view

america is destroying it's youth we are getting restlesss......In an oppressed nation where they give us lies and feed us a false sense of freedom.....rebellion... comes like FIRE.....

The way the youth is raised..is how they live when they are adults (the gov't wont forget that thats why we have school to be a ssocial screw)

america got what was coming on september 11th...not to say the innocent civilians deserved to die..but we only cared about terrorism when we got it back.....if the hoe wa on the other foot we would have bombed them too..except with more force destroying them... wiht no trace left...no one left to tell...or to rebell......

i leave you with this... while anarchy could work and is the only way i ssee for the people to unite and to run their own country without oppression and to many imposing rules...we need to revolt and revolt now or we too..will be brainwashed.........or washed out by some capitalist pig
by DrOcnor
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 2:26 PM
Even if he did kill a cop, and let's face it it wouldn't be unknown for someone to admit to a crime they had not committed just to get attention, what he did pales into insignificance compared to what half the respondents on this board are saying.

All this talk of revenge, angry mobs, letting "Bubba and the good ole boys" take care of him? You're all as bad as any terrorist. Before any conviction has taken place, he has already received threats of shooting, stabbing, electrocution, lethal injection, and a few others that don't bear thinking about.

If you carried these threats out, that would be murder, just as if you went out and, say, shot a cop at a gasstation. Jack Ruby, who shot Lee Harvey Oswald, was arrested for murder.

Nothing to me is as sickening as the average American's attitude when something like this happens: ill-educated, mob response with no thought or reason present. If Hitler had grown up and got started in California, he would have had a field day.

If this Andy guy shot a cop, he deserves to receive the punishment due for murder under California State Law. If he didn't he has just revealed how many insane and small-minded people there are living in the CA area.

by Junior in HighSchool
(HeAtHeR02004 [at] hotmail.com) Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 2:37 PM
Pay attention
I live in Red Bluff McCrae killed a 31 year old husband and father of a 14 month old and his wife is expecting. David Mobilio was a DARE officer and a good person. This Jackass know's nothing and his view's are wrong and to all the fuckers who think what he did was right and just i hope u get a rude wake up call in jail. I hope u see your friend McCrae being fryed in the electric chair or better yet bring him to Red Bluff so the people can get at him.
by Siobhan
(PoorExcuse1 [at] netscape.net) Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 2:42 PM
FUCK... THE... PIGS

i agree i see them run red lights get through traaffic with their sirens on then turn them off stop (when they actually stop)at a red light they are ON the pedestrian cross walk.....they beat an old man...a bystander at a peace rally..almost to death for no readon he got nothing in return for his damage another man squirt an officer with a water pistol and got beat up he got a sum of money for it but it shouldn't eve have happened and the police never beleive a word you tell them fuckin'pigs...i wont shoot them but i dont care if they are shot or killed

while all cop may not be like that i have never met one who isn't so fuck you cops...pigs... an untidy group of little fascists if you ask me

FUCK.....THEM

DAMN......PIGS

FUCK......POLICE.....BRUTALITY
by Troy Prouty*
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 3:02 PM
Grow up, before mom, has to spank you !
by Him
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 3:16 PM
GET ON YOUR KNEES AND PRAY TO ME NOW YOU IGNORANT SHEEP!

GET ON YOUR KNEES AND PRAY TO ME NOW YOU IGNORANT SHEEP!

GET ON YOUR KNEES AND PRAY TO ME NOW YOU IGNORANT SHEEP!

GET ON YOUR KNEES AND PRAY TO ME NOW YOU IGNORANT SHEEP!

GET ON YOUR KNEES AND PRAY TO ME NOW YOU IGNORANT SHEEP!

GET ON YOUR KNEES AND PRAY TO ME NOW YOU IGNORANT SHEEP!

GET ON YOUR KNEES AND PRAY TO ME NOW YOU IGNORANT SHEEP!

GET ON YOUR KNEES AND PRAY TO ME NOW YOU IGNORANT SHEEP!

GET ON YOUR KNEES AND PRAY TO ME NOW YOU IGNORANT SHEEP!

GET ON YOUR KNEES AND PRAY TO ME NOW YOU IGNORANT SHEEP!

GET ON YOUR KNEES AND PRAY TO ME NOW YOU IGNORANT SHEEP!

GET ON YOUR KNEES AND PRAY TO ME NOW YOU IGNORANT SHEEP!

GET ON YOUR KNEES AND PRAY TO ME NOW YOU IGNORANT SHEEP!

GET ON YOUR KNEES AND PRAY TO ME NOW YOU IGNORANT SHEEP!


by Troy Prouty*
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 3:19 PM
repeat - Siobhan is an idiot.

To lump all police together is poor judgement on your part. There are many people out there that are very good police officers and great and wonderful people.

Your anger needs to be calmed by the peace and logic.

Your no more right then those that call for the death of a person who killed someone. One murder does not justify another, just because a court says it justifies, really does not mean it really does.

Your opinions are biased and unfair for, and speak only with closed eyes.
by troy prouty*
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 3:27 PM
You want to get on your knee's and do what to a sheep!!! ?

You one sick puppy, that is animal cruelty, but if that is the best you can do for a date, I guess that is all you can do..

I think it is a little sick though, maybe Bush will join you. He seems the sick puppy type !
by Jim
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 3:46 PM
No one has remarked on the statement by the assassin that he is a highly trained killer by the American army. This guy seems quite smart (in a Hanibal Lecter kind of way) so its entirly posible that this story will have some twists to come.

I don't think that his actions herald a Narodnik uprising but when a political system fails to give even an illusion of control to its subjects then political assassination will become more common.

In my oppinion helping the striking fire fighters (Britain) who are in a battle for a decent wage without 'efficiency' savings that will compromise safty is more use than Andy's actions. The anti union government tries to force soldiers to engage in civil war while also asking them to fight a war for oil on behalf of America's gas guzzling industrialists.
by BMurray
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 3:58 PM
To whoever suggested that this will kill the anti-corporation movement in America: you must be joking. This happened in RED BLUFF folks. It didn't so much as make CNN's home page in small print, and look at the kind of useless crap that DOES make it. No one outside of a tiny group of people will ever hear of it. It will make no difference one way or another to any movement anywhere.

I'm certain that for the people involved it is a huge event, touching everyone they know in many ways. But for most of the world it does not warrant mention, let alone comment. No "movements" will be derailed. Or sped along their way.
by rewerb
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 4:06 PM
Davis To Extradite Alleged Cop Killer
Wednesday, Nov. 27, 2002
Governor Davis says he will work with New Hampshire authorities to extradite 23-year-old Andrew McCrae to stand trial for allegedly murdering Red Bluff police officer David Mobilio. McCrae was arrested yesterday at a Concord, New Hampshire hotel as Red Bluff held a memorial service for Mobilio.






Accused Cop Killer Does Not Enter Plea
Wednesday, Nov. 27, 2002
A 23-year-old man suspected of killing a Red Bluff police officer entered no plea at a court appearance in New Hamshire.

Andrew Hampton McCrae was ordered held without bail pending a preliminary hearing December 26th. McCrae was arrested Tuesday morning at a hotel in New Hampshire.

He told a newspaper reporter shortly before his surrender that he killed police officer David Mobilio last week to draw attention to police brutality.

A man identifying himself as McCrae also confessed in two letters posted on the Internet.

About five-thousand people attended Mobilio´s memorial service Tuesday in Red Bluff. He´s the first Red Bluff officer ever killed in the line of duty.



by rewer
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 4:06 PM
Davis To Extradite Alleged Cop Killer
Wednesday, Nov. 27, 2002
Governor Davis says he will work with New Hampshire authorities to extradite 23-year-old Andrew McCrae to stand trial for allegedly murdering Red Bluff police officer David Mobilio. McCrae was arrested yesterday at a Concord, New Hampshire hotel as Red Bluff held a memorial service for Mobilio.






Accused Cop Killer Does Not Enter Plea
Wednesday, Nov. 27, 2002
A 23-year-old man suspected of killing a Red Bluff police officer entered no plea at a court appearance in New Hamshire.

Andrew Hampton McCrae was ordered held without bail pending a preliminary hearing December 26th. McCrae was arrested Tuesday morning at a hotel in New Hampshire.

He told a newspaper reporter shortly before his surrender that he killed police officer David Mobilio last week to draw attention to police brutality.

A man identifying himself as McCrae also confessed in two letters posted on the Internet.

About five-thousand people attended Mobilio´s memorial service Tuesday in Red Bluff. He´s the first Red Bluff officer ever killed in the line of duty.



by Bryan
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 4:14 PM
This Andy freak lives (lived) in my apartment building in Olympia, WA. This really hits home. Karma hates Andy. He'll get his.
http://www.theolympian.com/home/news/20021127/frontpage/15892.shtml
by a cop
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 4:18 PM
My prayers go out to Officer Dave's son, wife, family and friends. I am too, a cop. I am also a mom of two kids. I work so that I can provide for my family. I am not a cop so that I can violate peoples civil rights or opress them. I live in this country like the rest of you do because I love it. I am just like you...i eat, breathe, sleep like you. I have my own ideas and thoughts. I disagree with people, but I dont do illegal things to make my point.

The difference between "us" and "Andy followers" is that you think you can tread on "us" and force us into your thinking. Who is right and who is wrong?

One thing I know is that Officer Dave did nothing wrong. He was shot in the back of the head by a cowardly **cked up pissant who should not be allowed to take another breath. Oh yeah, he isnt guilty yet right? Andy is guilty of doing the same thing he condemns. He forced his opinion and thinking on someone who knew nothing of his cause. If Officer Dave would most likely have protected Andy's right to protest if Andy would of done things legally. Instead Andy shot and killed a man, father, son, friend, co-worker. Guess what Andy, your name will be forgotten but Officer Andy's will be rememberd.
by K.O.
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 4:31 PM
Bubba is a hayseed. He and his "good-ole-boys" like to have sex with their livestock. When Bubba was a kid, he got kicked in the head by a mule. Things are a bit confusing for Bubba now since he's become the village idiot. At night, Bubba likes to dress up like a woman and tap into his femanine side. By day, Bubba goes down to the river and sits on the bridge playing his banjo and the theme song to Deliverance.
by David Tirrell-Wysocki
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 4:32 PM
Associated Press Writer
November 27, 2002


CONCORD, N.H.- The mother of a fugitive suspected of killing a California police officer in a crusade against police brutality disavowed his alleged actions Wednesday.

"We love our son but we absolutely denounce his alleged actions," she said in a brief telephone interview from Ohio, her voice breaking. "Our hearts are breaking for the family and friends of Officer Mobilio."

Karen Mickel of Springfield, Ohio, said her son Andrew Mickel had apparently been using the name Andrew McCrae.

Andrew McCrae, 23, was arrested in Concord on Tuesday and charged with killing officer David Mobilio in Red Bluff, Calif., on Nov. 19.

McCrae surrendered after negotiating with FBI agents for several hours at the Concord hotel where he had been staying.

In Ohio, McCrae's father, Stan Mickel, said news reports that his son was a drifter were not true. He said his son was a student at Evergreen State College in Olympia, Wash., and had attended Springfield North High School. Mickel said his son visited the family in March and there was no indication that anything was wrong....
by The Olympian
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 4:35 PM
...Thurston County Superior Court records show no criminal history in the county for anyone with the name of Andrew McCrae or Andrew Mickel. Olympia police also have no record of contact with McCrae, Machlan said.

However, the King County Jail said an Andrew Hampton Mickel of Olympia was booked April 20 for obstructing a public official. Mickel was released by the court April 21.

The Seattle Police Department was the arresting agency.

At Evergreen, college spokeswoman Kate Lykins Brown declined to confirm McCrae was a student, citing federal student privacy laws.

"Under the Family Education Rights and Privacy Act, I can't confirm or deny that he was a student here," she said. "The law says that if a student indicates that he or she wants that information to be confidential, then we're precluded from disclosing it."

Asked if Andrew Mickel made that request, Lykins Brown responded, "You can draw your own conclusions."

Campus police referred questions about McCrae to Brown.

Few students were on campus Tuesday, with many gone for the Thanksgiving break.

Students contacted by an Olympian reporter Tuesday said they didn't know Andrew McCrae or Andrew Mickel.
by John Doe
(John [at] doe.com) Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 4:54 PM
Mr. Cop-Murdering ASSHOLE said:

"Mister Bush,

"The Presidential election process in our country has been taken away from the American people. Through the combined existence of the electoral college and the campaign funding process, it is guaranteed that any candidate actually willing to care for the good of the people will never get elected. Beyond this, even within the confines of this system, you were never actually elected with a popular vote from the American people.

"Please set in place a democratic, beneficial election system and step down from the Presidency. Al Gore, who was popularly elected through this flawed system, shall serve as the temporary President until a True Representative of the People is determined."

REALITY CHECK

Murdering someone because you don't like the electoral college and its protections is psycho.

America is not a "democracy"; it is a Constitutional Republic. The electoral college was put in place as a protection against having concentrated population centers filled with scumbaggy murdering losers like you take over the nation and install your anti-American bullshit.

Personally, I'd like one hour alone with you in your cell, boy -- you would BEG for death. I hope your new cellmate is muscular and makes you squeal like a prison bitch until the very day they fry your Marxist ass.

They ought to put this piece of shit's execution on pay-per-view -- we could raise millions of dollars for the Mobilio family and initiate a fund to cover the families of other officers who are senselessly killed by equally vile subhuman trash.

Hey Andy: FUCK YOU. DICKHEAD!!!!!!! YOU ARE A SHINING EXAMPLE OF WHY REAL LIBERTY ACTIVISTS AVOID YOUR PATHETIC "PHILOSOPHIES" WITH VEHEMENCE.
by peter clarkson
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 5:04 PM
Obviously there is more than one alternative to corporate markets than communism. And could you explain what a 'REAL' job is, as distinct from attempting to effect social change? Your posting descended into a derisive tone it did little to justify.
by Peter Clarkson
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 5:16 PM
It is appalling that so many postings have appeared airing the most infantile curses, 'blow you to hell', 'burn', 'fry' - some even invoking 'God', and all this supposedly in outrage at the killing of a person.

Such rancourous crowing ill-befits those who wish to preserve life, and I regret to note the timeworn contradiction in legally killing murderers.

Mercifully there are some people posting on this site who have considered how it would be if they had to live according to their words.
by jenny
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 5:16 PM
aside from the alleged broadcasted confession, has the cops announced the discovery of any additional evidence (i.e. gun) or other corroboration linking McCrae to the shooting? anyone one can make a confession but it doesn't necessarily mean it's true. allot of people make false confessions either because cops coerced it out of them or the person making the confession wants to draw attention to him or her self. i don't think what McCrae published in IMC should be considered the smoking gun until new evidence is brought forward. there's nothing in his publication that specifically identifies "what the killer would know about the crime" other than a general admission of "I shot the cop." important questions to the cops who are monitoring this website independent of McCrae's confession--can you place him at the crime scene? has he told you what he did with the gun? have you found the gun? was ballistic residue found on his person, clothing or belongings? does his car or home contain any physical evidence linking him to the shooting? any accomplices or accessories? another consideration, maybe the IMC posting was a smokescreen to deflect attention away from the real killer(s)? i think their are allot of unanswered questions here, and as for all you Red Bluff rednecks and cop sympathizers, lets not rush to judgment here until all facts are in. if McCrae really did it he'll pay and all IMC will be guilty of is helping the cops catch a cop killer. if this turns out to be the case, then they should thank IMC for expediting the apprehension process.

by gacop
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 5:16 PM
You're a goddamn idiot, who deserves a bullet in his head. To bad it didn't go down that way.
by Mikell Robinson
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 5:17 PM
It is the job of politicians to keep their jobs. No matter how much money a legislator gets from "corporate America," he cannot stay in office if no one votes for him. The solution is to smarten up and stop voting for the candidate with the most ads or celebrity endorsements and vote the bastards out.
Oh, and abolish the IRS.
by Siobhan
(PoorExcuse1 [at] netscape.net) Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 5:25 PM
Fuck Police Brutality

Some ask where we would be without police... I believe innocent people would not be killed for no reason and then have the cops blame THEM for it.....

I believe in anarchy No rules No Government No Masters of anykind... Contrary to popular belief Anarchy is not chaos and is not the worst form of government... Anarchy can work if we don't have stupid fascists bossing us around... We could just do what we want... and to keep some sense of order...There might need to be one rule:You may not fatally injure or kill another life form

Even if we were to assume just for arguments sake that anarchy is chaos... Can you honestly tell me that its worse than this?Or that this is not chaos?

Fuck the cops man they have done nothing for me... There are too many political prisoners... and you call this the land of the free...home of the fucking brave......well...think about it alittle harder... its the land of the enslaved.....open your eyes.....america is nowhere near invincable and its not the greatest nation ever seen... and nothing like its founding fathers wanted it to be......Above everything else in the world man kinda wants power and it corrupts him therefore leading to shit like this... america the very symbol of hypocracy.....this is no democracy......if you must name it...it is a social democracy... of capitalists and communists.....filled with corporate fucks whol have more say in our lives that the civilians who live them i for one wont be control by some nazi fuck... stand up... fight back!!!!!........if we dont.....who will??

So all in all i hope you try to see that this nation is going nowhere but down if it continues to oppress other nations of this world.....And the cops make it no better... not to say you should kill them...but you should fight back because no one gives two shits when an innocent man was almost killed by a cop for no fucking reason the cops can do no wrong but when the shoe is on the other foot... hell brakes..loose.....Americas laws protect those who least need them...

How can you feel safe with these guys running our nations and with the cops everywhere...And when i need help i will not run to the cops...because i'm probably trying to run from the cops...untidy group of little fascists.....i wont be controlled and toyed with... who will i run to you might ask?... My fellow punks...and i'll kick the shit out of the fucking pigs whos after me

learn from this.....cops know the risk... but do you?
by Siobhan
(PoorExcuse1 [at] netscape.net) Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 5:28 PM
Fuck Police Brutality

Some ask where we would be without police... I believe innocent people would not be killed for no reason and then have the cops blame THEM for it.....

I believe in anarchy No rules No Government No Masters of anykind... Contrary to popular belief Anarchy is not chaos and is not the worst form of government... Anarchy can work if we don't have stupid fascists bossing us around... We could just do what we want... and to keep some sense of order...There might need to be one rule:You may not fatally injure or kill another life form

Even if we were to assume just for arguments sake that anarchy is chaos... Can you honestly tell me that its worse than this?Or that this is not chaos?

Fuck the cops man they have done nothing for me... There are too many political prisoners... and you call this the land of the free...home of the fucking brave......well...think about it alittle harder... its the land of the enslaved.....open your eyes.....america is nowhere near invincable and its not the greatest nation ever seen... and nothing like its founding fathers wanted it to be......Above everything else in the world man kinda wants power and it corrupts him therefore leading to shit like this... america the very symbol of hypocracy.....this is no democracy......if you must name it...it is a social democracy... of capitalists and communists.....filled with corporate fucks whol have more say in our lives that the civilians who live them i for one wont be control by some nazi fuck... stand up... fight back!!!!!........if we dont.....who will??

So all in all i hope you try to see that this nation is going nowhere but down if it continues to oppress other nations of this world.....And the cops make it no better... not to say you should kill them...but you should fight back because no one gives two shits when an innocent man was almost killed by a cop for no fucking reason the cops can do no wrong but when the shoe is on the other foot... hell brakes..loose.....Americas laws protect those who least need them...

How can you feel safe with these guys running our nations and with the cops everywhere...And when i need help i will not run to the cops...because i'm probably trying to run from the cops...untidy group of little fascists.....i wont be controlled and toyed with... who will i run to you might ask?... My fellow punks...and i'll kick the shit out of the fucking pigs whos after me

learn from this.....cops know the risk... but do you?
by Greenaway
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 5:32 PM
Andrew McCrea has set forth a very valid argument in his post. As to why he murdered, I suppose he might say

"Why him? Why anyone? Countless thousands of innocents are being murdered world over for far more insiduous reasons"

Yeah, true, but, that doesn't make his actions acceptable. In no way do I condone what he has done. That would be flawed logic It isn't right to murder like that. Only in self defence or for righteous vengence should foul murder be committed. While Mr McCrea's sentiments are worthy his actions are not.

He hasn't explained why he chose an "innocent" police officer. There can be "innocent" police officers, regardless of their choice of profession. As innocent as the children dying in Iraq or Mozambique or India (insert country of choice)

Hopefully we can change the global situation, throughout history civilisations have fallen without warning, unexpectedly. I do not believe we can really change anything. We are so many and they are so few, but they are strong. Stronger than we can ever be. I hope I'm wrong, but I doubt it.

The depths of the terrible behaviour that is committed by us against us in the pursuit of $$ knows no bounds. That the wool is tightly pulled over most of our eyes is evident everywhere you look. Not least in the ignorance of most of the replies along the lines of "...Don't you know we all carry guns in Bluff County.?." "I.... can't wait to get my hands on you if you ever come here..."

Step back, read the original post again. Ignore the murder and analyse the message. A very eloquent post. To those who disagree, do you have a spare 4 hours and a clue?? Read well, understand and see how your precious America behaves.

What a waste
by jenny
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 5:33 PM
did you know that in the state of California the transmission of a death threat can be classified as a "Terrorist Threat" punishable by a fine and/or imprisonment? maybe you'd like to identify yourself and where you live so I can inform the proper authorities. if you're a cop, maybe you'd like to tell me where you work so I can file a personnel complaint with IA.
by Siobhan
(PoorExcuse1 [at] netscape.net) Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 5:35 PM
Fuck Police Brutality

Some ask where we would be without police... I believe innocent people would not be killed for no reason and then have the cops blame THEM for it...

I believe in anarchy No rules No Government No Masters of anykind... Contrary to popular belief Anarchy is not chaos and is not the worst form of government...

Anarchy can work if we don't have stupid fascists bossing us around... We could just do what we want... and to keep some sense of order...There might need to be one rule:You may not fatally injure or kill another life form

Even if we were to assume just for arguments sake that anarchy is chaos... Can you honestly tell me that its worse than this?Or that this is not chaos?

Fuck the cops man they have done nothing for me... There are too many political prisoners... and you call this the land of the free...home of the fucking brave...well...think about it alittle harder... its the land of the enslaved... open your eyes... america is nowhere near invincable and its not the greatest nation ever seen... and nothing like its founding fathers wanted it to be...

Above everything else in the world man kinda wants power and it corrupts him therefore leading to shit like this... america the very symbol of hypocracy... this is no democracy...if you must name it...it is a social democracy... of capitalists and communists... filled with corporate fucks whol have more say in our lives that the civilians who live them i for one wont be control by some nazi fuck... stand up... fight back!!!!!..... if we dont... who will??

So all in all i hope you try to see that this nation is going nowhere but down if it continues to oppress other nations of this world... And the cops make it no better... not to say you should kill them...but you should fight back because no one gives two shits when an innocent man was almost killed by a cop for no fucking reason the cops can do no wrong but when the shoe is on the other foot... hell brakes loose... Americas laws protect those who least need them...

How can you feel safe with these guys running our nations and with the cops everywhere...And when i need help i will not run to the cops...because i'm probably trying to run from the cops...untidy group of little fascists... i wont be controlled and toyed with... who will i run to you might ask?... My fellow punks...and i'll kick the shit out of the fucking pigs whos after me

learn from this... cops know the risk... but do you?
by Fat American Consumer
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 5:40 PM
You liberal "activist extremists" never cease to amaze me.
You sit here bitching about "evil corporate America" while posting
your rants on equipment and technology that corporate America
gave you. All while using your AOL/Time Warner or MSN
internet connection? Ha ha! Why don't you write your ideas
on home made papyrus if you hate corporate America so much?

And what the hell does a protest about a police state / police brutality
and "evil corporate America" have to do with the killing of a police
officer in Red Bluff? Andy is clearly dillusional. For any of you
who don't know, Red Bluff is a small rural "hick" town in Northern
California. Oh yeah! Red Bluff SURE IS a major player in the
corporate America world! And a tightly locked down police
state city at that! All the poor innocent citizens of Red Bluff are
constantly being harrassed and brutalized by the huge army of
the 23 member Red Bluff Police Force. Give me a break!
They probably only have 2 officers on duty at any one time. And I'm pretty sure they are not home to any Fortune 500
companies. This is just cold blooded murder in the name of
Protest? And some of you stupid idiots support this. Sad!

You people need to get a reality check.

by jenny
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 6:09 PM
hey jerkoff, FYI, here's the exact law, familiarize yourself with it because the webcops might be knocking on your door next:

CALIFORNIA PENAL CODE SEC. 422: Any person who willfully threatens to commit a crime which will result in death or great bodily injury to another person, with the specific intent that the statement, made verbally, in writing, or by means of an electronic communication device, is to be taken as a threat, even if there is no intent of actually carrying it out, which, on its face and under the circumstances in which it is made, is so unequivocal, unconditional, immediate, and specific as to convey to the person threatened, a gravity of purpose and an immediate prospect of execution of the threat, and thereby causes that person reasonably to be in sustained fear for his or her own safety or for his or her immediate family's safety, shall be punished by imprisonment in the county jail not to exceed one year, or by imprisonment in the state prison. "Electronic communication device" includes, but is not limited to, telephones, cellular telephones, computers, video recorders, fax machines, or pagers. "Electronic communication" has the same meaning as the term defined in Subsection 12 of Section 2510 of Title 18 of the United States Code.
by Think about it
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 6:15 PM
"...under the circumstances in which it is made, is so unequivocal, unconditional, immediate,
and specific as to convey to the person threatened, a gravity of purpose and an
immediate prospect of execution of the threat, and thereby causes that person
reasonably to be in sustained fear for his or her own safety or for his or her immediate
family's safety, ..."

An anonymous posting by and anonymous person to an anonymous person hardly
qualifies as an "...immediate prospect of execution of the threat, and thereby causes that person
reasonably to be in sustained fear for his or her own safety or for his or her immediate
family's safety..."
by jenny
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 6:50 PM
this element of the law is satisfied as long as I believe in the threat even if it comes from an anonymous source. what about phone calls? someone calls in an anonymous death threat, are you telling me this dosen't constitute a crime?
by me
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 7:00 PM
Since you seem to have the Penal Code in front of you look up 653m.....not 422
by ut oh reefer madness
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 7:58 PM
The article in the Olympian mentions 420 twice, once in the supposed address of the corporation,


"Those papers listed an Olympia address of 420 Sherman St. S.W., apartment 123, which is at the Capitol House apartments"

The idea that this is a fake address seems highly likely. Apt. 123? How about apt. 456? Probably chosen because it's the Capitol House Apartments, for the meanings of Capitol. White house etc. Not to mention it used to be Peter Hospital. And Peter Pan was at PLAY here. Evidently to heal us all.

The second mention is:

"the King County Jail said an Andrew Hampton Mickel of Olympia was booked April 20 for obstructing a public official. Mickel was released by the court April 21. "

April 20, 4/20, 420, get it?

Hmm, I wonder if our perpetrator is some kind of genius at manufacturing conspiracies. Ut oh spaghettio, could it be that this is all a manufacture of the Illuminati, like 9/11 was?

Maybe it's time for reefer madness take II. III? IV? ...



by Think about it
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 8:15 PM
If the poster of that message in this forum has no idea who you are. And has no reasonable
way of finding out your true identity, location, etc, then there is no way a resonable person
can think their life was in immediate
danger. Therefore, the elements of 422P.C. are not met. I am a police officer and this
what I would tell you if you were
reporting this to me.
"gave"!?!

Give me a break. They sold it to us at a handsome profit.
by trinity
(nah) Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 8:53 PM
JUST REMEMBER GUYS'

FEAR leads to ANGER
ANGER leads to HATE!!!!!
HATE leads to THE DARK SIDE OF THE FORCE.

for all of you idiots who have no fucking integrity. keep it together god damnit! your heart is the only thing that can save you, rules dont matter, only what your heart tells yoy.
yeh yeh i know it sounds funny but when that dya finally comes on your death bed, and for a moment you have to chance to see everything clearly..
would bubba be proud to have said such stupid things.
and could you really be so sure that the man deserved death, both Dan and Andy.

the system is flawed.

the future is ours.

Whats in there?
Only what you take with you...

peace
love
forever
by none
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 10:44 PM
nickname is?
by BJ
Wednesday Nov 27th, 2002 11:57 PM
Just so you know, I hope that you hang, and that whatever movement, that you were trying to support by committing this crime, is harmed by it.
by Oscar beard
Thursday Nov 28th, 2002 2:12 AM
Well, all thisa shows to me is there are alot of angry people out, there.
The question is why are you angry?
Is it because an innocent cop has been killed?
Or because our lives are so controled that you can no longer buy a piece of clothing without it being made in a third-world sweat shop?
The abuse on this site against "activists" by certain individuals just enhances the statistics that 1 in 30 has sociopathic tendencies.
It is so easy to insult over a web site, nice and safe isn't it.
Shame you don't have the balls to face up to what you are really angry about. Instead you attack the only people who care about whats left of our world and the people in it, calling them smelly, crusty, dirty and unemployed.
Try something original.
And instead of all being angry and attacking each other, why not try to get along. Help each other, get that monkey off your back.
Still, its nice to see the few mails from people who seem to have a brain. Keep up the good work those of you who care, and be careful. As my last mail, I think this is the beginning of non-conformists becoming a suspected terrorist organisation, in America I believe it already is - everything Biafra warned us of about twenty years ago.
Peace.
by jamie
Thursday Nov 28th, 2002 4:06 AM
I agree with the majority of your points, but you've totally destroyed any respect i had for you by murdering (or claiming to) a human being.

You're a fool, man, a fool.
by Jason
Thursday Nov 28th, 2002 6:17 AM
Who is more sick? The man who used a gun to make his point - however misguided - or the ones who scream about wanting to 'rip his f**king testicles off' and 'burn his throat with acid' ?
If they offered him to the mob, there is no doubt he would get ripped limb from limb... How is it that he a psychopath but you are all righteous people who simply believe in 'an eye for an eye'? Like I say... who is more sick?
by Sanity
Thursday Nov 28th, 2002 7:37 AM
< Yes it includes Iraqi people... that's why Saddam needs to be shot, you idiot! >

I found this website by a link. I have never been here before. I felt compelled to answer the statement above.

Yes, the Iraqi people deserve happiness and peace like everyone else, but they also deserve the respect that should be given to all people and nations. Saddam is their leader, chosen by them and no one has the right to use the "idea" of liberating the "Iraqi" people to go in an massacre the innocent for their own emotional and monetary gratification.

I would take it as a personal insult if another Nation came to the USA to liberate us from the president in charged just because they thought that their moral views of the world were better than ours.

What gives people a right to think that their moral values and ideas should be spread around the world and say world has no right to fight back? Throughout history nations and people have fought against those that oppressed them, fought against the Romans, Hitler Germany, and so on. This factions thought themselves better than anyone else.

Our beautiful Nation with so many good romantic people with heart of gold don't seem to see the road that is being taken in the last 40 years or so. This land were mistakes are made and from those mistakes sometimes learning is done, hopefully, can awaken to stop the distructive path that is starting to take before is too late.

My heart goes to the Officer that was killed and his family, and also to the young man that claims involvement in killing him.

I'm older now, and hope that my grandchildren will have a world and a Nation that they could be proud of instead of growing up in rage, hatred, and avarice.

As a people we must learn to think for ourselves. We can't forget that we put those people up there. WE can't forget that they are human with their own agenda, and if we don't keep an eye on them they will walk all over us. What happens when people, even good people gain power over others? Human nature kicks in, their internal issues kick in. It doesn't happen overnight, but it happens.

To blind ourselves to believe that the people we hired to run the country while we live our day to day lives has our greatest interest and happiness is to ask for disaster to walk into our lives and sit at our dining room table. WE must keep informed of the events in our nation and around the world and not fall for the latest propaganda that feed our emotions and fears.

The biggest lie that the people have eaten and it still works is that there is the "Government" and there is the "People". I say there is only, "GovernPeople" that must take responsibility for those that are at the moment running the country.

Thank you for listening.
Happy Thanksgiving

A hopeful American


by European Citizen
Thursday Nov 28th, 2002 7:43 AM
You guys make me laugh and cry at the same time. Stupid Americans. Killing eachother. Exploiting your own citizens. Exploiting other countries. I wish the Dutch never traded Surinam for Manhattan and I wish the French and Spanish never left. I wish the English never gave up. Because, then there would have been some 60 independent states instead of a Banana Republic called 'USA'. Oops, wasted too much words on y'all. Say hi to Dubya.
by Eduardo Horta
Thursday Nov 28th, 2002 10:10 AM
I bet 90 percent of the people who published their comments didn´t even bother about reading the whole article. This proves that he shouldn´t have done that.
Because the average United-Statesians will remain fascist, and slaughtering third world civilians. That you will remain disinformed by your corporate media.
You all (well, most of you) don´t care when people here in Latin America, the asshole of the world suffers from your foreign policies, from your multinationals. If you´ve got a little brain left, a suggest you forget the killing for one moment, read the article and try to think about it. "think?!" yes, it is not that hard. Go on, you can do it.
by American Citizen
Thursday Nov 28th, 2002 10:20 AM
You guys make me laugh and cry at the same time. Stupid Europeans. Allowing yourselves to be killed time and time again. Allowing your government to exploit your citizens through feudalism, imperialism, fascism, communism (all european inventions). Burying your heads in the sand time after time as your governments sell arms to the highest bidder, allowing threat after threat to rear its ugly head. Burying your heads in the sand as your bureaucratic nightmare governments sap every last remnant of your nations sovreignty.

You live in a place where a citizens destiny is determined at age 12, and you don't care. Your cynicality precludes you from seeing that Europe has not produced real innovation in tens of years. Your inability to improve yourselves, foisted upon you by your political and economic system, has led your moral compass into the abyss. To the rest of humanity, it seems you care about nothing.

How long did France take to fall to the Nazis? 30 days? The Poles held out just as long, and they had nothing more than antiquated rifles and horses. Are you ready to wave the swastika again, Europe? Because that's the type of history you are likely to repeat if you keep travelling down the road you're on. And, frankly, this time the rest of us are starting not to care.
by Patrol 1
Thursday Nov 28th, 2002 11:13 AM
Unfortunately, his message is lost in is act. You take "a minute" and think about it. What if yours was the 18mth old child left without a father?
by Andy
Thursday Nov 28th, 2002 11:47 AM
It's too bad his message was lost in such a sick act. I see two victims here: the police officer and the murderer. I don't like corporate America either or the police, but A LIFE IS A LIFE. We should all look at the situation with lover, rather than fear, despite the horrendous nature of the event, for love will release us from our shackles. Fear is what big business would like us to feel. It's unfortunate that this young man's ideals were flushed down the drain when he acted no better than the corporations he is speaking out against.
by NotMine
Thursday Nov 28th, 2002 11:48 AM
I have been reading all thes posts for many hours.
And CNN has been on all this time with no mention of this issue.
Assuming that Andy murdered this officer how come it is not being covered?
If I chose to uphold the law as my career I would want to know about this, and every detail about it.
I remember April 24 1998 Philadelphia when an entire city was shut down for Mumia Abu Jamal the allegd cop killer.
Again if I was a police officer or related to one by blood I would like to know if an American city was shut down by American citizens.
If I was an American citizen I would like to know if an individual chose to begin the revolution on his own terms.

As a non-violent activist I appose the killing of any person even, Bush and his dynasty.
But as a thinkning man, I have to ask what is the future of America?
Is it all over? Are we turning into Bogota, Israel or the Congo? Is it all down hill from here.
Here is a little story that might give us a glimpse of what is to come.
I speak to all radicals, grassroots activists, police officals, and cop haters and lovers.

I know a man who was a Cuban refugeee and anti Castro supporter.
He hates Castro because he had lost family members to the revolution.
He and his cousin had supported anti Batista movements ironically.
But when th revolution came, the revolution came. Land was divided amoung the people and away from the filthy rich.
His family was just avboe the line of being poor so they lost it all. His uncles were killed.
Now history shows us that Batista was a corrupt pig US cronie. And so a revolution in Cuba would be very popular.
The revolution was held as an example to follow amoungst millions of freedom fighters and rebels across the world for decades.
My point is that a revolution is bloody and it is swift.
If a revolution happend here . . .
Do you think that a man who has slept undergound in Grand Central Train Station for 15 years would hesitate to blast the skull of a man in a business suit if armed and told to fight for freedom?
This man in a business suit could be the most amazing leftist professor the world has ever seen.
But to a homeless revolutionary he is just a white man in a suit.
I speak to all rightwing and leftists and those who dont know enough to take a position.
What Andy did is not excusable, but it will happen again with more frequency - because what he wrote about the what is happening around us is TRUE.
Killing is wrong, killing anyone is wrong, but no matter what stance you take, we all know that this was bound to happen, atleast the academic community did.
The right wing will respond by taking away more civil liberties from Americans.
They will take away our rights and privilages as we become more poor.
The people will loose more jobs, and they wont go joining the KKK or any Aryian race, they will find a more obvious enemy, like Andy did.
The left will become more aggressive as the anarchist movement grows and become less white.
Once the "movement" becomes less white - the country will have a bigger problem in their hands.
A population of the most oppressed taking action in more desperate means than white activists.
My point is simple and I will close with this.
For those who symphasize with the Red Bluff community and thier police department, please dont take my statement out of context.
What Andy addressed are true concerns that we can not just disacknowledge because he killed an innocent police officer.
The future of our country depends on our keeness.
If we let things continue the way they are, revolutions, terrorism, massive direct action and the end of relative freedom will begin.
Things have gone to far. How many people do you know are now layed off. How many of you cops feel that you are being treated fairly and paid correctly.
What is happening to America's teachers?
How many of you believed Bush senior when he spoke about education?
How many of you believed Bush Junior when he spoke about education?

To avoid blood shed and riots we have to take responsibility of what our actions are.
We cant just vote and sit back. We have to now gear our enitre lives to save the United States of America.
Revolutions are bloody and they literally hit home.

Not in our name.

p.s. if a revolution did begin . . . I would no longer be an activist - I would be a revolutionary.
by Shawn
Thursday Nov 28th, 2002 12:08 PM
Andy, I am the son of a police officer. I don't believe it is possible for you to truely understand what you have done. You will go to court, to jail and then to hell. This is a sad thing, because you will never know what it is like to be the son of a MURDERED police officer. In my opinion you should not be killed, you should be allowed to live, get married, have a son and after 18 months your family should be brutally executed in front of you. You will be forced to watch, then live the remainded of your life as Bubba's bitch in prison. Then and only then will you understand the consequences of you actions.The only problem with this is society would never allow this to be done, because killing another person is not the answer. I do not believe you should be sent to death row, that would be to easy. You should be brought to Red Bluff and the citizens should controll your future.

by jenny
Thursday Nov 28th, 2002 1:49 PM
i bet if someone on this board threatened to blow
YOUR brains out, you and your little double-standard-
kiss-the-report-off COP buddies would take it very
seriously and 422 would apply then, right? i bet you
guys would make a federal case out of it and i bet
the feds with their electronic resources wouldn't
have a problem with identification (if it involved a
cop), right? i bet 422 works very well when the
victim is a cop. but when cops and their groupies
post threatening messages on this board against
people who have a different way of looking at the
world, laws like 422 are no longer applicable. come
on, with a little "creative report writing" you guys can
make almost any law applicable when it affects
one of your own. the majority of people on this site
are very intelligent. you cops should stick to that
sanitized, stale PORAC News. in fact, i bet if someone
posted an anonymous threatening message on
PORAC News' website or the website of a local
police department you and your little cop buddies
wouldn't have a problem finding that person and
charging them with 422.
by Paul
Thursday Nov 28th, 2002 2:39 PM
.95 cents and 2 # presure is all that boy needs to get his mind right...
by Paul
Thursday Nov 28th, 2002 2:55 PM
and after hes dead, then we give him a fair trial...
by Another Latin American
Thursday Nov 28th, 2002 3:13 PM
"The defense of a terrorist"

"What I´m about to tell you is not a defense. I´m not trying to getaway from the punishment imposed by the society i´ve attacked. By the way, i only recognize one court capable of judging me - myself - and the veredict from any other court doesn´t matter to me. I only wish to give you an explanation regarding my actions and how i was taken to practice them.

"It´s not been long ago since i have become an anarchist. It was only half-way through the year of 1891 that i took part in a revolucionary movement. Untill that time i used to attend places filled with the ruling moral. I had been educated to respect and even love the ideas of nation, family, authority and property. The truth is that the teachers of this modern generation many times forget of a really important thing: that life, with its struglles and defeats, its injustice and it´s iniquity, encharges itself of opening the eyes from those that still ignore the reality. This has happened to me, and so happens with everyone else. They´ve told me that life was easy, that it was opened to all intelligent people and filled with enthusiasm; the experience has taught me that only the cyincal and the servile got nice seats in the feast. They´ve told me that the socil institutions based themselves in justice and equality; I used to observe the things surrounding me and I could only see lies and falsity.

" As days went by, i was continuously loosing my illusions. Wherever I walked, I would witness always the same thing: the misery of some and the joy of others. It didn´t take long for me to understand that the big words ehich I had been taught to worship – honour, devotion, duty – were only masks that hid the most shameful baseness. The owner of the facory that acumulated huge amounts of money thanks to the labor of workers that had nothing, he was a gentleman; the deputies and ministers, whose hands were always opened waiting for the bribery, were men dedicated to the welfare of the people; the policeman who experienced a new kind of rifle shooting seven year old children, did his duty perfectly and was greeted officially in the parliament by the president of the council. All of that disgusted me and my intelligence was little by little atracted to the criticism made to the rulling social organization. Those criticisms have been repeated so many times that it is not worth repeating them. It is enough to say that I soon became an enemy of the society I judged as criminal.

"Attracted, in the beginnin, to socialism, it didn´t take long for me to get away from this party. I love freedom too much, I have an enormous respect for the actions of individuals, and I repel the military organization too much to
become only one more number in the ruled army of the fourth state. Besides that, I believed that socialism wouldn´t get to change the establishment because it mantainned the concept of authority – and whatever is the idea the self taught free thinkers may have regarding it – that concept represents the survivor of an ancient belief of a superior power.

"Scientific studies took me to realize, little by little, the role that the natural forces play in the universe. I became materialist and atheist: I understood that the modern science rejects the hypothesis of the existence of god because it doesn´t need it. The same way, the religious and authoritarian moral based on false arguments should also disappear.

"I used to ask myself how could I combine this new moral with the laws of nature, capable of regenerating the old world, so that it would be possible to make mankind happier. It was in that moment that I got in touch with a group of anarchist comrades which I still consider, today, as the best one I´ve ever had. The character of those men captivated me immediately. I saw a great sincerety, a total directness, a vigorous distrust of any prejudice and I wanted to understand the ideas capable of producing those men, which where so different from the ones I had know untill then.

"Those ideas, or the way i got to understand them, found in my mind a fully prepared soil – thanks to my personal remarks and reflections – to receive them. They came only to give objectiveness to what already existed in a vague, undecided way. And I became an anarchist myself.

"It is not necessary to go on any further on discussing the anarchist theory. I only want to enphasize that its revolutionary side and its negative aspects and destructive brought me to its presence. In this moment of bitter and strong combat between the medium class and its enemies, I´m almost taken to say, as did Souvarine in Germinal:
'All the discussions about the future are criminal, because they stop the destruction pure and simple and they slow the march of revolution'

"As a personal contribution to the struggle, i brought with me a deep and everyday renewed rage, renewed by the spectacle of this society in which everything is low, misunderstood and ugly; in which everything serves as an impediment to the stream of the human passions, to the generous impulses from our hearts, ro the flight of the free thought. I wished to stab it so hard and with as much justice as possible.

"Let us start with the first attempt, the explosion at Rue des Carnaux. The first news about the workers strike filled me with joy. The miners seemed to have abandoned the useless pacifist strikes, in which the confident worker paciently expects that his little francs win against the millions from the company. They seemes to have finally chosen the road of violence, witch was shown on August 15th, !982. The offices and buildings of the mining camp were invaded by a huge crowd that was about to make justice the hated engineer when the scared ones decided to interfere.

"And who were those men? The same that made all the revolutionary movements abort, because they fear that, once free, the people will no longer obey to their command. The same that convinced thousands of men to bare the deprivation month after month so that, when protesting against these depravations, they can create a popularity to themselves to get them elected. Those men – the socialist leaders – took control over the leadership of the worker´s strikes indeed.

"Immediately was born in the region a cloud of loquacious gentlemen that were fully supporting their struggle, organizing lists to get funds, arranging meetings and search in every possible place. The miners gave them the whole organization of the movement and everyone knows what happened. The strikes continued, extended for days and the miners established very close relations with hunger, that became their most faithful friend. They soon ran out of the little funds they had saved from their own union and from other organizations that had come in their aid, so, at the end of the second month of strikes, hummiliated and sad, they returned to the minig camps poorer than ever. It would have been simple in the beginning to attack the company in its only fragile point – the financial – burning down the stockpiles of coal, destroying their machines. If they had done that, the company would surely not take long to change its positions. But the great socialists didn´t allow them the us of these methods because they´re typical of ancarchism. In using them we´re subject to being shot and, who knows, even receive one of those bullets that resulted so miracuously in Fourmies. This is not, for sure, the best way of achieving a seat in the city council, or in the parliament. To summarize it, after a momentaneous interruption, the order was reigning again in Carmaux, once the small problems were eliminated. More powerful than ever, the Company continued to exploit th epeople, and the shareholder gentleman greeted themselves for the happy closure of the strike, feeling twice as much pleasure when receiving their profit.

"It was then that i decided to introduce in that concert of such happy sounds a voice that the bourgeois already knew, but thought that had died in Ravaxhel: the voice of dyinamite. I wanted to show to the bourgeois that, from that moment on, their pleasures wouldn´t be complete, that their insolent victories would be disturbed, that the gold calf would violently shake in the pedestal untill the final blow that would made him roll among dirt and blood. At the same time, I desired to make the miners understand that there´s only one kind of men capable of sincerely worrying about their suffering and willing to take revenge: the anarchist. These men don’t seat at the parliament as mr Guesde and his affiliates, these men march untill the guillotine.

"Thus, i prepared a bomb. In one moment, I remembered the accusation that had been made in Ravachol. What about the innocent victims? But I soon solved this problem. The buildings where the Carmoux Company had its offices were inhabitated only with bourgeois: there wouldn’t be, therefore, innocent victims. All the bourgeois live from the exploitation of the less fortunates and fair and they should pay for their crime; Thus, full of confidence in the legitimacy of my act, I left the bomb in front of the door of the offices of the Company. I’ve already said here about the I hoped that in case it was discovered before it exploded, my bomb would end up detonating in the police station, where those who would possibly be injured would be enemies as well. Those were the reasons that made me commit the first attempt which I’m being accused of.

"Let us see the second: the incident at the Terminus Café. I had just come back to Paris during the Vallant case and I had been a witness of the terrible repression that followed the explosion in the Bourbon Palace. I saw the Draconians measures that the government decided to strike against the anarchists. There were spies, searches and arrests everywhere. A group of individuals put in jail for no reason, taken away from their homes and thrown in jail. Nobody worried about knowing what would happen to their wives and children while those comrades stayed arrested. The anarchist was no longer a human being, but a savage beast that should be hunted without mercy while the bourgeois press, slave of authority, demanded in loud voices that they were all killed. At the same time, leaflets and anarchist papers were confiscated and the right of reunions was abolished. Worse than that: when it seemed smart to get rid of a comrade, an informer would let in his room a package that, according to him, contained tanning bark; the following day there would be a search with a warranty dating the day before and they would find a box with a suspicious powder in it. The comrade then was taken to court and condenmed to 3 years in jail. If you want to know wheter this is real, ask the bloody spy that got to infiltrate in the house of comrad Merigeaud! But such methods were valid because they attacked an enemy that had spread fear, and all those that had feared wanted to show their courage now. As an approval of that cruzade against the heretics, we heard the Minister of Interior, mr. Reynal, declare in the Chamber of Deputies that the measures taken by the government had spread terror among the anarchists. But that still wasn´t enough: a man that had never killed anybody was sentenced to death. It was necessary to show bravery untill the end, and in a bright morning he was killed in guillotine. But, mr bourgeois, when making such plans you’ve forgotten the main thing, you arrested hundreds of men and women, violated tens of homes, but, outside the walls of prison, there were still men that you didn´t know and that observed, hiding in the shadows while you hunted anarchists, waiting only for the right moment so that they could hunt the hunters.

"The words from Reynal were a challenge thrown at the anarchists. The challenge was accepted. The bomb found at the Terminus Café is the response to all the violations of freedom, to the prisons, to the searches, to the laws against the press, to the mass deports, to the guillotines. But – you may ask – why attacking pacific costumers of a café that were simply seated listening to their music and that were not judges, nor deputies, nor bureaucrats? Why? It’s quite simple. The bourgeois didn’t make distinction among the anarchists. Vailant, a man that acted alone, threw a bomb, more than half of his comrades not even knew him, but that didn’t mattered; it was a mass pursue and any person that had connections with anarchists, no matter how little they were, should be hunted. And because you see a whole party for the actions of only one man and attack with no distinction, we will attack without choosing the victims. Maybe you think that we should attack only the deputies that make the laws against us, the judges that use these laws, the police that arrests us? I don’t agree. Those men are nothing but instruments. They don’t act in their names. Their functions were created by the bourgeois as a form of defense. They are not more guilty than any of you. These nice bourgeois that don’t have any seat in the parliament, but crop the profits and live idly thanks to the profits obtained by the hard labor of the workers, those should also suffer on our revenge! And not only them, but everyone that agree with the rulling order, that clap their hands for the acts of the government and this way become their accomplices; the workers that earn 3 or 5 thousand francs a month and that hate the people with an even bigger rage than the one from the rich, that stupid and arrrogant mass of people that always chooses the stronger side – putting in better words: the daily customers of the Terminus and many other big cafés! For that reason I attacked at random and didn´t choose the victims.

"We should make the bourgeois understand that those that suffer are now tired of suffering. They start showing their teeth and when they attck they will be as brutal as the brutality used against them. They have no respect for human life because the bourgeois themselves have already shown that they don’t care about it. The assassins responsible for that bloody week and for Fourmies consider the others as assassins.

"We’ll not spare the women and bourgeois children because the women and children of those who we love haven’t been spared as well. Shouldn’t we include, among the innocent victims, the children that die so slowly of anaemia in cardboard shanties because there’s no bread in their homes? The women that become every time more pale working in the factories, getting jadded to earn a few bucks per day and considering themselves happy if the poverty doesn’t take them to prostitution? Or the old men that have been treated as machines for their whole lives and that now are sent to the mount of rubbish in the asylums, when they have no longer strength to work?

"Have a least the courage to admit your crimes, gentlemen of bourgeois, and recognize that our revenges are totally valid. Of course I don’t have illusions. I know that the mass are still not yet prepared to understand my actions. Even among the bluecollars for whom I fought many will still be mislead by what others think of me. And I don’t ignore the fact that many individuals that call themselves anarchists will rush to deny solidarity to the ones that want to spread the action. They try to establish a fine diference between the theoretical and the terrorists.

"Extremely cowards to risk their own lives, they deny those that have this courage. But the influence that they want to have over the revolutionary movement is absolutely none. Today the field is open to action without weakness or retreats.

"The Russian revolutionary Alexander Herzen said once that: “we should choose between two things: condemn and march ahead or forgive and turn back in the halfway”. We don’t want to forgive, neither turn back and we’ll always march ahead untill the revolution, the final objective of all of our efforts, finally happens to celebrate our work with the creation of a free world

"In this war with no mercy that we have declared against the bourgeois we don’t want anyone to feel sorry for us. We kill and we can bare the death. And therefore I wait for my sentence with disregard. I know that my head won’t be the last one you’ll cut: many others will still roll, because the ones that die of starvation start to learn the ways that take to the cafés and to the restaurants, the Terminus and Foyots. Other names will be added to the bloody list of our deads. You may have hung in Chicago, decapitaded in Germany, shot in Barcelona, guillotine in Montbrison and Paris, but you’ll never get to end up with anarchism. Its roots are too deep and it was born in the heart of a society that is rotting and disintegrating. It represents all of the liberty and equality aspirations that stand up against authorities. It’s everywhere, what makes it impossible to control. It will end up killing you all. "

Emile Henry in "A gazeta dos Tribunais" april27th-28th, 1894.
by Eduardo Horta
Thursday Nov 28th, 2002 3:29 PM
I bet 90 percent of the people who published their comments didn´t even bother about reading the whole article. This proves that he shouldn´t have done that.
Because the average United-Statesians will remain fascist, and slaughtering third world civilians. That you will remain disinformed by your corporate media.
You all (well, most of you) don´t care when people here in Latin America, the asshole of the world suffers from your foreign policies, from your multinationals. If you´ve got a little brain left, a suggest you forget the killing for one moment, read the article and try to think about it. "think?!" yes, it is not that hard. Go on, you can do it.
by Emily
Thursday Nov 28th, 2002 5:13 PM
Sigh..once again a man tries to make a statement about how shitty this country is and everyone hates him. WAKE UP. Sure, killing isn't cool...but how the hell else is anyone going to pay attention to what he has to say? Why are there so many school shootings?? It's because no one would listen to what those poor kids needed to say!! Why can't u people look past the fact that he shot someone (which our wonderful government officials and police men do EVERYDAY and then get glorification for it,) and realize that although his tactic was bad, his intentions were good. All he wanted was to spread the awareness about how shitty our state-of life is, and he sure as hell did didn't he?? He certainly got us to listen, even though it was at the sake of someone else's life. But isn't that how America always gets its way, by destroying lives until that particular country or whatever it may be gives in? If anything, I'd say he was one hell of a citizen! He was doing exactly what all the bigs guys in the white house do, but I guess they got a little jealous because someone figured their plan out. I mean, think about it...haven't you all just wanted to kill that asshole boss or snotty teacher, but didn't have the balls because you'd get in trouble? YOU are the cowards. YOU are the ones who are afraid to stand up for what YOU believe in, and not what your bibles and officials and kings tell you to. OPEN UP YOUR FUCKING EYES AND REALIZE THAT WE ARE NOT FREE, THAT WE ARE CONSTANTLY CONTROLLED BY AN OVER-POWERFUL, UNFAIR GOVERNMENT.
by Barb_Z
Thursday Nov 28th, 2002 5:19 PM
http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/10/1540620.php
by Paul
Thursday Nov 28th, 2002 7:35 PM
Horto. love to do thet. but were just to damn busy with killing the enviorment, the air and water, and we just don't have any time for you candy-ass wimps, suck it up and move over the dozers are coming..
by Confused Friend
Thursday Nov 28th, 2002 8:48 PM
I must say this whole thing comes as quite a shock to me. I knew Andy Mickel, hung out with him in High School, and while we were not close friends, we were friends. I can't express how angry I am at him for what he has done, how he has hurt Officer Mobilio, his family, and the folks in Red Bluff who lost a great friend and leader in their community.

I'm not here to defend Andy. I haven't spoken with him in about 5 years, perhaps closer to 7 even because our paths parted after our sophomore year, so I won't even venture to say that I knew him that well. But it's close to home.

I know a lot of emotion and anger are woven in and out of this so deeply. There is a lot of pain in Officer Mobilio's family and friends, Andy's family and even the people who are just caught up in it as it surrounds them. Pain from anger, disbelief, shock, horror, sadness. I personally think that Andy was not in his right mind when this occurred. He was a very intelligent young man, a good student, and an excellent writer and dramatist. I can see the echoes of our similar education in the style with which he writes, but after style I lose all sense of the Andy that I knew. I don't recognize his rantings, his anger, his political views. I don't recognize the cold and callous nature that offers 1 line of apology against 5 pages of hate. I fear that the Andy who was my friend has taken a turn, crossed a boundary, and is living a life so unlike what he had... I'm very sad for him.

Again, I'm not trying to defend what was done. I don't agree with Andy's position. I'm just trying to say that there are 2 sides to this, and that Andy is a human, and he was a nice kid once. I'm sorry, Mrs. Mobilio. I'm so sorry that he did this to you, and that there is no sane explanation or reason. I'm sorry that this random, senseless act has touched your life so. I wish I could make it go away. But please, please, don't hate Andy. Despite what the world tries so hard to make us believe, there IS a God, and Jesus is His Son. Christ taught us to love our enemies, and He even died for us while we were yet far away, even while we were His enemies. Not just not friends, but ENEMIES.

Find God in your grief, look to Him for comfort. Let Him support you, let Him guide you. Pray for Andy. I know I'm asking alot, I know that most of you wish Andy were tortured and slain just as senselessly as Officer Mobilio, but please guard your hearts against anger. Only Satan wins when we hate our brothers and despise those who hurt us. God's forgiveness and grace is sufficient, it is all-encompassing. Through Christ, all things are possible--even a reunion with loved ones lost.

Again, I'm so sorry. My heart and prayers are with you.
by artraud
Thursday Nov 28th, 2002 10:51 PM
My condolences and sympathy to those who have lost someone that they love. Something is there.
I think the last two posts were from the FBI, fishing for wackos. I hope they can keep their own sanity or they'll grow up to be somebody's weird neighbors.
Living is harder than dying. Sorry.

by artraud
Thursday Nov 28th, 2002 10:58 PM
I meant the latin american posts, a few back, sounded like they were written by wacko-hunters.
I didn't mean a comment on the later posts.
I'm a little slow.
by Evergreen student
Thursday Nov 28th, 2002 11:24 PM
this is weird and sad... i had a class with that cop killer (and why the ^%$# is he going by mcrae?? he was "andrew mickel" when i had a class with him)...i said maybe two words to him, but he indeed struck me as a little off...at the same time, he seemed kind of creative or something, so what a waste ... i feel for the officer's family, and andrew "mcrae's" actions really make no sense to me ... weird.
by Me
Friday Nov 29th, 2002 12:26 AM
I'm in the UK, and the posts here from some of the people regarding this are a sad reflection of American society. Yes, murder isn't a good thing, and no-one should be doing it, but your corporations get away with it day in, day out.
by otterstrom
Friday Nov 29th, 2002 2:50 AM
The "ex-soldier" turned drifter -- allegedly turned confessed murderer -- roaming the country with multiple names and posting to a variety of alternative websites IS AN "AGENT PROVOCATEUR" PLOY.

The (plausible deniability) EX-SOLDIER(?) with multiple names (McCrae, Mickel, etc.) is a very obvious COINTELPRO-type operative. This military/fbi operation deliberately sent email messages or postings to a variety of progressive-left websites, as well as rightwing websites which question the government, as part of a typical COINTELPRO discrediting/undermining campaign. It is VERY OBVIOUS that the email messages & postings confessing to the tragic killing of a police officer by this supposed ex-soldier turned "drifter" are a PLOY to discredit both progressive-left media/organizations and also rightwing groups who criticize/protest against government policies.

This type of COINTELPRO DISINFORMATION PLOY attempts to associate government critics with violence and the advocacy of irresponsible & illegal tactics. The truth will come out about government deception and cointelpro-style, staged "agent provocateur" crimes against individual U.S. citizens and groups. Look at the reality of what occurred in the case of Judi Bari and the FBI-staged car bombing. Don't let the spooks undermine indymedia and other progressive websites (as well as any alternative media which question/criticize the government ). Be aware of rampant "agent provocateur" operations in this political climate. Don't be duped pawns of the George Bush, Sons & Cronies--Carlyle Group--Halliburton--Dyncorp--LockheedMartin--Wackenhut--ExxonMobil (Rockefeller/Standard Oil)--Citigroup--War Profiteering--Heroin/Cocaine Smuggling--Money Laundering CRIME DYNASTY.
by fuck them all
Friday Nov 29th, 2002 3:18 AM
The fanatical posts made by many people on this thread calling for the death of Andy McCrae by various means shows how sick mainstream Americans really are.

The same fascist American Patriots who are crying over the death of "Officer Dave" and the orphaning of his 19 month old child are the same people who have celebrated and supported America's genocide of over 500,000 Iraqi children the past ten years.

For Americans, the death of "one of their own" (i.e. a White mainstream pig) is eulogized without end. But the killing of infinitely more Third World people by the American Empire around the world is merely an empty statistic.

Un-fucking believable.

Mainstream Americans truly are a fascistic, racist, and nationalistic class of Nazis who deserve to reap what they sow.
by .............
Friday Nov 29th, 2002 5:31 AM
"I'm in the UK, and the posts here from some of the people regarding this are a sad reflection of American society. Yes, murder isn't a good thing, and no-one should be doing it, but your corporations get away with it day in, day out."

Well, I'm in Canada and from my perspective, corporations are multi-national and hail from wealthy countries around the globe, and they are all doing it ... I don't think the Americans have a monopoly on that sort of thing. We're talking about a global elite here.
by minons little helper
Friday Nov 29th, 2002 9:14 AM
This hapless idiot should be found and quartered for his stupidity. Leave it to the peoples republic of California's fine educational system to produce a fine gem like this. If he took 1/2 the effort he used to write his manifesto, he might actually accomplish something more than being a jealous cry baby.

You sir, are a fuck tard. Do the world a favor and take yourself out of the gene pool.


by jon
Friday Nov 29th, 2002 10:35 AM
Dare has been found ineffective since its creation.

I don't condon the way he went about his views, but i respect his views none the less.
by dan abundis
Friday Nov 29th, 2002 11:08 AM
To those who apologize for this cop killer or wish him to burn. Just ask yourselves what has any act of revenge against a system or an individual done to make me or you any more safe now or in the future.
by flablando
Friday Nov 29th, 2002 12:08 PM
<p>This guy is really smart posting that he killed a police officer. I mean, I know he got caught, but does he think that the government isn't watching everything we all do on the internet? They definetly are. But how did they find him? That's what I wanna know how to do! How cool would it be to be able to find out the physical location of anybody who posts on these boards or any other board on the internet? <br><br>
<i>Really</i> cool but <i>really</i> scary

<p>
by TomB
Friday Nov 29th, 2002 12:21 PM
"The central belief of every moron is that he is the victim of a mysterious conspiracy against his common rights and true deserts. He ascribes all his failures to get on in the world, all of his congenital incapacity and damfoolishness, to the machinations of werewolves assembled in Wall Street, or some other such den of infamy." H.L. Mencken, ca. 1925
by Troy Prouty*
Friday Nov 29th, 2002 12:22 PM
How about one hour with me?

You make sense with the republic and human life is precious, to bad our own government fails to notice it.

But since you want to fight, try me out ! Place, location and time?
by troy prouty*
Friday Nov 29th, 2002 12:25 PM
actually it is you that needs a wakeup call.

Expect one soon !!
by joe blo
Friday Nov 29th, 2002 1:00 PM
anyone can find where you are in a general location (ie, city/neighborhood). to find your exact address and name, the government contacts your ISP and requests the information.

And the government cannot possibly monitor everyone all the time. Unless you do something to cause them to monitor your activities.

I am not going to comment on this article because it would be rather useless and besides, it seems that most people are venting their anger rather than participating in an intellegent discussion.
by your names are required
Friday Nov 29th, 2002 2:02 PM
lesson-color_match_by_percentage-paper_moon.jpg
The end result is its all so worthless it hasnt the possibility of affecting our country aside from the cries of bleedinghearts, notes of idiotic sarcasim, and the bastardized comments of wanna be anarchists. If anything, Andy just damaged the few valid opinions he had to the point of no return in the eyes of many. Much has just been turned into dogma. I wish everyone wasn't so god damn retarded. I will not cry or feel sorry for 2 men I did not know when my country refuses to let me feel sorry for the Palestinians like they allow me to do for the Israelis. Way to go Andrew, you just reinforced the very thing you hate.
by blah blah
Friday Nov 29th, 2002 2:07 PM
QUOTE: "Leave it to the peoples republic of California's fine educational system to produce a fine gem like this."

hey jackass. he wasn't from and didn't live in california.
aside from that... your very hateful comments are the exact kind people that have been replying here despise.
by Altoid
Friday Nov 29th, 2002 2:17 PM
<b>Too bad he actually killed a copper. Should have went after a corporate executive instead.

Hes got good ideas though, this world is phucked and we are slaves, too bad most people are too stupid to realize that.<b/>
by jenny
Friday Nov 29th, 2002 2:25 PM
Before the cop shooting your average California
street cop didn’t know (or really didn't care) about
IMC. Immediately after the so-called
“confession” surfaced on this site, Red Bluff PD
and others alerted their rank and file during police
shift briefings and encouraged their cops, with
the blessings of FBI, to saturate SF-IMC with
negative-inflammatory comments in an attempt
to draw out alleged “subversives.” Beware
coppers, police departments everywhere
have disgruntled employees on the payroll who
are always eager to blow the whistle, even in a
one-horse-town like Red Bluff. Another thing,
where’s the evidence? Aside from “The
Declaration” what else do you have on McCrae?
On the day of his arrest McCrae spoke to Sarah Vos
of the Concord Monitor. Did he make any
incriminating statements that directly implicated him
in the crime or did he just talk about his
political beliefs? On Wednesday it was reported
that cops “hauled boxes of evidence” out of
McCrae’s Olympia apartment. Okay, what kind
of evidence? The search warrant used in this case
is sealed for 90-days and I suspect its origin
was Tehema County. With every search
warrant served comes a “Return.” A Return is
an itemized list of all property seized and its filed
with the original search warrant afterwards at the
DA’s Office and Superior Court. A copy of the
Return was left at McCrae’s apartment as a receipt
of all property taken. I wonder what the Return
says? Also, with every search warrant comes
an Affidavit that reveals the specific facts that
cops used to convince a judge why a warrant
should be issued. In many instances, the Affiant,
or the cop applying for the warrant, will
intentionally distort and manipulate facts to
mislead the judge into issuing the warrant. It’s all
part of the “creative report writing” process that most
of them subscribe to, a process they all
experienced during their initial indoctrination into
the Cop Subculture. In McCrae’s case, the
search warrant affidavit should serve as a blueprint
to the subsequent raid conducted at his
private residence. I suspect the cops will do
everything within their power to suppress
this information if evidence is weak. I suspect
the reason we haven’t heard about any new
evidence is because there is none. Finally, if the
cops conveniently forgot or failed to leave a copy of
the Return or some form of a receipt for the “boxes
of evidence hauled away,” they screwed up.
by Jackie
Friday Nov 29th, 2002 4:25 PM
Wow! Andy was angry at the elite! It drove him insane and so he killed one of the other poor slaves of the system. What a shame. Two slaves gone and the corporations continue to take our freedoms at our own demands. UnReal. I pray for the Lord's return soon so justice can be served. By the way for you supposed Christians that want Andy eternally tortured I pray your rage will not result in Andy's sad fate. Think it over. God does not torture he simply cries for us all.
Andy will either come to realize his sin and ask for the forgiveness of God and get back on track or God will simply allow him the second death. I thank God the he is more merciful than all you Christians out there. With regards to the Officer shot. My sympathies to his wife and children. May it give you peace to know he sleeps and will resurrect on Judgement Day in perfect health. I pray he knew God before his death. With regards to the government and corporations ruining and killing millions year after year. God see all. Seek his forgiveness and change your evil ways.
by Jabberwocky
Saturday Nov 30th, 2002 1:31 AM
Let me start by saying that as a human I genuinely feel pain for the family of this officer and killing is not right. But it absolutely boggles my mind that here, on Indy fucking media, san fransisco none the less, that I spent half an hour reading posts that were so tremendously bigotted and skewed that my head is swimming. This man has some damn valid points and Id like to know when in the "hell" that you like to condemn people to the American public will wake up and see that this was a desperate act, carried out by a desperate person who was so frustrated with this system that this is the only solution that he could come up with. Im not saying it was right, if the man even did this thing, but I am saying that it's not too hard to understand. It's not too hard to understand why someone would hate a cop because of the system that they represent. And yes, I can understand that maybe this cop was just an ordinary person that hated the system as much as anyone else, maybe he was even trying to change the system... I dont know, but I do understand that I know far too many people that bullshit laws and officers have put into jail and that fantasic DARE program feeds the fire that houses nonviolent offenders and takes away their lives, their familes, their dreams, their hopes... I can understand feeling frustration at that system and its millions of victims in our own country. What i cannot understand is that this man laid out something that our freaking pop news media refuses to touch. That our country, our president and our hijacked "democracy" is killing thousands of people every day with sanctions, with bombs, with bullshit excuses to preserve "freedom" and that the people of this country are more concerned to sit on their asses and blast someone for atleast doing SOMETHING. Cause as you know, our current couch potato, mcdonald's eating, nike buying culture has done so much to better the world. Jesus christ people, DO SOMETHING.. dont go kill a cop, kill this system that has mutated into a country that allows a madman to sit in office and kill people for oil. DOES ANYONE UNDERSTAND THAT THE THINGS THAT THIS MAN SAID ARE REAL? Someone tell me how the hell to get that message out.. someone tell the other future Andy's how to not let the bile and hatred and death that our country spews all over the world not be reflected in their actions. And someone please tell me just what has been done to stop this train wreck... this last election? The legions of voters that are so immersed in keeping their 70 hour a week job because of this spiral fall of the economy that they didnt even leave their desk to vote? The media's true reporting of the pipeline that magically got approved a couple of weeks after we started bombing Afghanistan? The fact that our govt's official stance is that global warming isnt real, yet here in northern california we have gotten less then 3 inches of rain since MAY and as I drive through the mountains towards Eureka, Arcata, etc the clear cutting now lets me see the haze for feet and feet? Or perhaps the laughable appointment of Kissinger to "head" an investigation into 9-11, the same man wanted in two different countries for trial on crimes against humanity, killing, bombing... not one person but thousands? Someone tell me why what this man did is any worse then the legions who do nothing, who just sit by and let our government kill people for OIL because it makes it easier for us to drive our one occupant Escalades. WAKE UP AND STAND UP and tell these people who understand, who drive themselves slowly crazy as their words dont make a difference and end up taking drastic measures like this what to do because marching isnt working, peaceful resistance isnt working... did you even know that over 150K people marched on the white house last month, or that on the other side of the country another 80K stood strong? Probably not, because it was more interesting for the media to cover something so earth effecting as a convienent child abduction or some sniper shooting. Someone earlier said that the generation that Andy is a part of doesnt care.. and you are dead wrong, we care but your years of ritalin and prozac, toxic culture, brand marketed lifestyles and advertising promises of consumerism and corporatization have left us not knowing what in the hell to do..

This is unfortunate, but atleast it was for something. Cause the pictures I see of cargo trailers full of suffocated afghanis placed there by our goverment, our military and left to suffocate or perhaps the wedding party that we "accidently" bombed, killing off almost an entire bloodline are for nothing more then OIL... And as you sit there and condone it you are a much worse beast then you are giving yourself credit for and perhaps some of the hatred you spew is just you, trying to live with your actions, your decisions and all of the murders that you have helped commit, there is blood on all of our hands.

by Jose Ramirez Paes
Saturday Nov 30th, 2002 3:14 AM
I'm writing this text cause i wanted to thank you! Thank you all American people for setting us, from South America, free!

Freedom - yes - what does that word mean? Does any of you here can explain it to me, without doing US propaganda? Is that still possible to do? Can you even tell what freedom is? Or are you blinded by propaganda? I'm serious, it's a simple question. I want a basic definition, not in a political sense, just a plain and simple one. You people repeat this word over and over, you tell this word to us everyday - and i believe you don't even know what it means! Please, don't look up in the dictionary. Be honest.Try to figure out for yourselves. Tell me - what does your heart say?

And please tell me why you consider yourselves the freedom nation, cause i simply can't understand it. What makes you freer than any other nation? Maybe that's because you people were chosen by God - How many times have i heard the expression 'God Bless America'.?! And by the way, what does "America" mean? Does any of you know?

It's kind of strange to me, as a foreigner, I see so much talking about freedom overthere, and everything you seem to be doing around the world is spreading the anti-freedom. Maybe because i'm not from there, i simply couldn't possibly understand, is it? I don't wanna get ironical here, I'm being honest. I just want you to tell me the meaning of it, cause i just don't get it.

Does the freedom that you talk about so much really exists? Or is it just a fantasy? Is it real? Or is it something people repeated so much you ended up believing in it. As a South American, my sense of freedom is much inferior to yours, i guess. Freedom to me is the right to have food to eat. Just that. I'm serious.

Please don't come up with answers such as - "we're free because here the criminals fry on electric chair" (i've read many comments from different articles about people saying things like "he should burn in hell" - is that your sense of justice?!). I'm just asking you - please, don't write down the first stupid thing that comes on your minds, i want to start a discussion here, a serious one.

I know there will be people here who will not take that seriously, please, if there's still a soul overthere that is concerned about things other than itself and about playing jokes on the internet, swearing people they not even know just for the pleasure of being stupid. I can even imagine a reply to this comment saying - " yeap! I'm stupid. Not only me but also all Americans, why don't you South Americans go to hell?". That is always the first thing those people think of saying...

Anyway, returning to the real subject here...What is freedom, What does freedom mean? And i'm sorry if i ofended anyone here, i dindn't mean to. Really.

by free soul
Saturday Nov 30th, 2002 6:27 AM
FREEDOM IS TO TELL PEOPLE WHAT THEY DO NOT WANT TO HEAR.
George Orwell

...seems that many people around here is deaf though.
by Jose Ramirez Paes
Saturday Nov 30th, 2002 7:19 AM
Good definition... that doesn't seem to be the case of your government, though. As far as I'm concerned, the things it tells you people is that "everything's fine, don't worry, we're taking care of it. Just sit your asses on your coaches, and relax. Trust us. We're nice and we're the good guys, cause i say so." While to the rest of the world, it says: "either you're with us or you're against us", and throw bombs to feed the savage beast that is your war industry. So, in that sense, we could say that you're setting us free! You are straight forward everytime you want to threaten us! Thank you twice for setting us free.
by brain
Saturday Nov 30th, 2002 8:52 AM
HMMMM....
After looking at these posts that range from center to left to far left I'm left with some questions. Why is it that Iraq's dictator is blameless for his countries state, why is killing a cop considered ok, and how does this help mankind in any way?
by Isolationist
Saturday Nov 30th, 2002 8:56 AM
One man’s freedom is another man’s definition of fascism and totalitarianism. Another’s man freedom is someone else definition of anarchy and chaos.

One can even say freedom is the ability to open discuss the doctrine of murderer who killed a good family man in order to get more publicity for himself and his political views.
by Jose Ramirez Paes
Saturday Nov 30th, 2002 9:50 AM
Hmmm... This othe one was awesome too. Seriously. And if you're talking about me, that's in part, true. I'm not only trying to get publicity to my political views but also to encourage debate. Regarding publicity to myself, I can assure you, and you have the freedom to believe me or not, is not my intention.
by Jose Paes Ramirez
Saturday Nov 30th, 2002 10:42 AM
sorry, people, i misunderstood the post that was before the one above. I guess my English is not that good :)
by ben frank
Saturday Nov 30th, 2002 10:57 AM
Hey IMCers, anyone else think this looks like a setup?

1. This gives the CIA 'reason' to assert that any anti- (war, corporation, globalization) activist could do likewise, therefore anyone with such ideas can be arrested. - according to them

2. If Andy truly wrote and believed all that stuff, then he is intelligent enough to know that this action would do nothing to further the cause. He would have done some form of direct action linked directly to the scamming corporations out there. Killing a cop in cold blood is not something an intelligent, aware protester would do.

Question is, did andy write the post, then somehow the cia inserted the 'i killed a cop line' at the top?

or is he CIA all the way, gonna get locked up in 'solitary' somewhere, then taken out the back door to do more dirty work.


by MRS. PIG TO YOU!
Saturday Nov 30th, 2002 2:25 PM
NONE OF THE CRAP YOU'RE ANALYSING HAS A THING TO DO WITH THE MURDER OF DAVE MOBILIO. WHY DON'T ALL OF YOU FORM A SUPPORT GROUP FOR POOR, UNDERPRIVILGED ,UNEDUACATED, UNDERFED OVER-POLICED AMERICANS WHO ARE ADDICTED TO POLITICS AND HEARING THEMSELVES TALK. IT WOULD BE MORE DIGNIFIED THAN TALKING OVER THIS FALLEN PUBLIC SERVANT'S BODY. JUST ONE LAST THING, PLEASE DON'T DIAL 911 , ONE OF MY FAMILY MEMBERS OR FRIENDS MIGHT SHOW UP TO SAVE YOUR ASS AT RISK TO HIS/HER OWN .
by jenny
Saturday Nov 30th, 2002 2:41 PM
question:

http://www.redbluffdailynews.com/display/inn_news/news11.txt

answer:

absolutely, because two cops increases Bubba's chances of gettin caught when he sneeks out at night to molest the town's livestock
by Orphey
Saturday Nov 30th, 2002 4:20 PM
One thing is for shure. The young people is starting to move.
Dylan Klebold (aka VoDKa) and Eric Harris (aka Reb
amongst many handles) from Littleton then Charles Bishop (15)
and now Andrew McCrae the young ones who where not affraid
to speak up.

(Pink Floyd)
- Look mummy, there's an aeroplane up in the sky
- Did you see the frightened ones?
- Did you hear the falling bombs?
- Did you ever wonder why we had to run for shelter when the
- promise of a brave new world unfurled beneath a clear blue sky?
- Did you see the frightened ones?
- Did you hear the falling bombs?
- The flames are all gone, but the pain lingers on.



Killing a person is not good.
Murder will never have a justification. ANY murder. Murdering
civilians in Afganistan by bombing them neither. For thouse who
whine out loud about how 'good' Dave Mobilio was and the quality
of his person maybe you want to reflect about the people being
cowardly killed by dropping bombs on them and mining the fields.
Murder is awflull and there is no doubt.

All of you who whine about 1 human life while reading the indeed
tragic news about the policeman's death, do you do the same when
you hear that children are dying of hunger or landmines left by US
military or bombs falling up form the sky.

Andrew McCrae invites us to make a Stop and to think over all the
bullshit we are taking for granted. To make a STOP is realy
non-vilent and powerfull move.

And all this post about candemnation to Andrew McCrae, do they
make you feel better? They do, right? You wont stop for a bit
to mourn any other people that die, you just dont care as it
is happening far away from you.

>>>He has taken a human life. He is shit in my book

He isnt, its just 'your book' smells.

This isnt about individualism, its about getting togeder. The
humanity is is driving itself towards destruction. We just dont care.

>>>What good could possibly come out of murdering someone?
>>>What was this guy thinking?

Why dont we all go outside, get togeder and cry out loud for all the
people that are being killed right now? What are we all thinking?
Dont you people realize that the money you are paying in taxes are used
to make all those guns, bombs and planes that kill same people that make
that money ???
Trying to get in heaven and all you do is grasping all you can in this world.

Like the South Park kinds are saying:
Maybe heaven isnt a place you can get too.
Maybe heaven is just an Idea.
Maybe heaven is this moment, right now.

Stop the WAR.

Andrew McCrae isnt a sniper that kills people for the money.
>>>Then, this crime, however terrible in intention, was disinterested,
>>>born of an abstract idea. +
The fact is that he has an Idea, the same Idea that the rest of the
people are lack of and I'm including myself. We are not making the
world a better place.

>>>The guilt of these homicides lies upon every man and woman who,
>>>intentionally or by cold indifference, helps to keep up social conditions
>>>that drive human beings to despair.

But the movement has started and we will hear more young voices.
I think the Proud and Insolent Youth Inc. will find its way, maybe
under another slogan but it shure will.
by -
Saturday Nov 30th, 2002 6:43 PM
..move over to europe..

how nice of you fellow human beings across the pond to shuttle your dirt 'just' over to us europeans.. but anyway..

I think Andy has committed criminal actions he should not have committed, and if good law systems are upheld, he will pay for his actions appropriately. He leaves behind a family devastated by the loss of their father, and this grief is in no way repairable. For that he gets my deepest disrespect.

I also think this Andy guy is a bit deluded in his reasoning and the slogan'ish language he uses doesn't contribute anything positive to his words. But the scariest thing about this guy and his letter there, is that he apparently longs for a civilisation without war, without conflict, without oppression, without power, and that these things are very human things to want.

If you are a realist, though, these things can't be resolved in todays society.

What I think has happened here is that the man became a criminal in a mood of despair and afterwards even had the guts to speak for himself. I condemn his wrongdoing, and want to give my sincere condolences to the family. But at the same time, society itself creates it's own problems, and the people in it are mostly robots. Society should reflect at the causes, not just the consequences to what Andy did. Frustrated people like this are going to be ticking time-bombs as long as something sets them off, and todays society, I fear, is on it's way to make it a dense minefield. These guys are actually like a red flag waving that something is wrong. You should acknowledge that and improve whatever is wrong. You can not prevent these frustrated guys for doing the next 'unexpected' murder, just like winning the 'war on terrorism' is an illusion. You can only remove the grounds for the other party to wage war on you like this.

Let's hope we can have a better future, for our kids and future generations to come..
by Big cahoon
Saturday Nov 30th, 2002 10:39 PM
Andrew McCrae = Andrew Mickel

from Springfield, OHIO

by richard Andersen
(richardandersen [at] msn.com) Saturday Nov 30th, 2002 11:45 PM
The fight for a better America takes another step backwards because of this idiot, If we are to bring about change we must stand together. Not with VIOLENCE against our own police, but with one voice promote change in the way we allow corperations to govern our White House and its Senate. lobbists and the those against reform should be ousted from office! " We the people" does not mean congress it means you and me. Lets stand together for a better government for our childrens future and throw this government out ,which is our right.
by richard Andersen
(richardandersen [at] msn.com) Saturday Nov 30th, 2002 11:45 PM
The fight for a better America takes another step backwards because of this idiot, If we are to bring about change we must stand together. Not with VIOLENCE against our own police, but with one voice promote change in the way we allow corperations to govern our White House and its Senate. lobbists and the those against reform should be ousted from office! " We the people" does not mean congress it means you and me. Lets stand together for a better government for our childrens future and throw this government out ,which is our right.
by Truth Seeker
Sunday Dec 1st, 2002 9:32 PM
It's worse than you could ever imagine -- oil is only the beginning! The global megacorporations are behind every facet of the war on "terror":

http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/iraq.html

by Anonymous..
Sunday Dec 1st, 2002 9:38 PM
I live nowhere near Red Bluff and don't know any of the people involved. In fact I came here through an article on register.co.uk. I went through half the thread pretty carefully to see what people's reactions would be, and frankly I'm quite disappointed with amount of sheer ignorance being displayed on here. The last place I expected to find bigotry and idiocy alive and well was indymedia.

To begin with, some full disclosure to give an idea of where I'm coming from. I have friends who've had horrible things done to them at the hands of the cops. I have friends who ARE cops. I've been through DARE...I've done drugs..I don't really do them anymore.. I'm not religious, I was raised unitarian. And I'm going to personally tear apart a few peoples ignorant rants, and try to post a (hopefully) more thought out view of my own. If you get bored with my dissections, keep reading, I will make my point later on, I promise.

First, I'm going to take a look at this fine thoughtful gem of a post from Dodie Thompson-Zimmerman (a few pieces excerpted here only for clarity and brevity, go back and read the original if you think I'm twisting anybody's words.)

<original>
I look forward to this piece of *#@# standing in front of the greatest judge of them all, Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! Vengence is mine sayith the Lord! And Mr. Andy scum You will feel the wrath of God upon you!!!! There is no way of death, painful enough for you, except the flames of hell uopn you!

<reply>
Ok, so here we go on about jesus christ....So the poster is probably christian. Supposedly these folks are into tolerance and compasssion, right? Believe that god should make the decisions and do the judging? Vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord...ok, so it's his job then, right? Oh, btw...Isn't cussing a sin where you come from?

<original>
We are outraged! I would like to have the opportunity to be face to face with this scum that took our officer in such a brutal manner. I wish they would bind his hands, walk him down our Main st. and let the community have their way with him. There is not a court in this country that will be fair to him, let's punish him the way they did hudreds of years ago!

<reply>
Give you enough rope, and sure enough, you manage to hang yourself with it. Here you clearly advocate taking matters into your own hands, or inciting somebody else to do so. (which may be a fine thing to do in some situations as far as I'm concerned, but not in this one...if you don't have the evidence in front of you, you can't be playing judge jury and executioner.) Furthermore, you just negated your whole invocation of Jesus Christ into the this discussion (where it doesn't belong anyways) quite effectively, by handily breaking at least a few of those pesky commandments. Christ preached love and tolerance during his life, you preach dragging people out in the street and mutilating them. I don't think you can find anything in your bible that supports that kind of behavior on your part. I rest my case.

Then there's this constant mentioning of DARE during this thread, seemingly trying to make the guy look more upstanding for being a DARE officer. Number one, it's a red herring. It's got nothing to do with the subject. He got shot..he shouldn't have gotten shot just for being a cop. It's wrong. End of story as far as that goes. But since you insisted in bringing DARE up, I'm going to go off on it a bit. (and I'm going to get off-topic, since we're already there...skip to the next paragraph if you want to get more on topic) When I was in school we had some DARE assemblies. I listened to everything they had to say, and thought it over. It amounted to propaganda, pure and simple for the most part. There was very little useful information provided, the message was primarily "You shouldn't do drugs"..."Why?"...."Because these friendly men in uniforms will have to arrest you if you do, and that would be bad" They had one rep from the police dept. who talked about how they would arrest people for having drugs or using them, and then another table with a guy from the DA's office who talked about how they would take you to court and send you to programs to make you not like drugs anymore, and piss test you to make sure you weren't using them. That's not education, that's intimidation. Sure, making a kid take a piss test every few weeks will keep them away from the bong....because they think drugs are bad now? NO..because they don't want to go to juvenile hall. Does that solve the problem? (assuming that occasional recreation drug use should even be classified as a problem) I think not...

Drug users are not freaks or scum who should be wiped out using violence (as some fools suggested) They are your neighbors, your co-workers, doctors, teachers, lawyers, cops, even your president. They are members of society with varying degrees of productivity just like anybody else.

Now to get back more on topic. Even if this guy who posted the original article is indeed the shooter, he still made a number of valid points which can't just be discarded. People do things like this out of desperation, and the political and societal climate in this country gives a lot of people very good reason to be desperate, I think. I see people talking about non-violence, and I don't much like violence either, but there's a problem in this country today. When you combine the growing integration of corporate and governmental power with the incredible apathy of a culture of people kept docile and scared by mass media and television entertainment, it's very difficult for a few people to change anything by going out and picketing about it. The companies don't care much about a minority not liking them, and our current leadership sure as hell doesn't. As long the majority of people are well fed and fed carefully chosen information, and scared of an outside threat they feel they need to be protected from, or kept too busy trying to keep themselves afloat in the economy, nothing is likely to change. Because people don't give a fuck. It's somebody else's problem. Conversely, very litle is likely to be changed by a few angry people with guns, either. To borrow a computer term, the corporate-government system is a fault-tolerant machine.. It can't be changed by a few bullets. What is the solution then? I'm not sure..I don't think any one person holds the answers.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that the cops aren't the problem, as somebody said..Some of the cops most certainly ARE the problem. More oversight is needed over police depts, and especially prosecutors. When prosecutors pull dirty tricks to try to get convictions and win more cases to make themselves look good, THEY should be the ones to go to jail.

2. Things change when people wake up and realize that all is not as it seems. That they've been lied to. That they're being manipulated and exploited. Unfortunately, the vast majority of people never seem to come to and identify the root causes of things, instead they blame the symptoms as if they ARE the problem, and come up with some absolutely ridiculous ideas based on that assumption. Somebody shoots up a school, after being picked on and beat up constantly: Confiscate trench coats and detain people who wear black. Somebody knocks over a skyscraper: start detaining arabs, start confiscating toenail clippers. Go fight a war to raise your approval ratings and take away civil liberties when people are least likely to resist. Do data mining on everybody so you can identify potential troublemakers more easily (and invade everybody's privacy or what's left of it at the same time). All measures that do a lot to pacify people and make them think they are safe, but very little to actually make them safe. Terrorism/counter-terrorism is an interesting game, because it involves two fault-tolerant systems trying to attack each other. One fault tolerant because of size and depth, the other fault tolerant by means of being distributed and autonomous. There's no easy winner.

I know I haven't succeeded entirely in being coherent..but I think I've done a halfway decent job. Questions, comments? machinerygod [at] aol.com
by m.j
Monday Dec 2nd, 2002 6:17 AM
interesting points but how does the cop shooting tie in? how can that possibly make a statement other than to show a lack of respect for humanity on base level.

i have no solutions, and my opinions are still forming, but already i can see this to be a flawed concept, be it real or fake.

you have to walk before you can run.
by yabetcha
Monday Dec 2nd, 2002 7:28 AM
>>>We never heard of this guy until a couple of days ago. He appeared out of nowhere<<<

I don't believe it. You know him and thousands of others just like him. Given the opportunity to pop a law enforcement officer and not get caught, there are bunches of you IMC supporters that would do the same thing. You and others are a bunch of Andrew McCrae's in the make just waiting for your chance. Hopefully the day is coming when you'll all mysteriously disappear. No one will care.
by system
Monday Dec 2nd, 2002 8:45 AM
The system didn't just hop out of an egg. People created the system. Rich and poor alike, people of all races, of all backgrounds, of varing beliefs, all in equal voice created the system. The system is the people. The system is made up of people. The people created the system because we like how it works. Do not attempt to tell me otherwise, for I will not listen to your lies. There are some who don't like how it works. They can politely ask us to change the system, but if we don't want to change the system it won't be changed. Quit bugging us about changing something when we got it working the way we like it. And I'm poor as fucking dirt typing on a computer at the local library as we speak and I'm saying I like the system. The system gives me the opportunity to better myself. I believe in the system. No amount of discouragement from others will change my mind. Instead, those who don't like the system finally become so frustrated they decide to kill people within the system. If you are of IMC and you haven't started killing individuals, you just haven't reached the breaking point yet. Some of you may not. Others will. I say better to stop you now than to wait and wish it had happened after others have been murdered by those who are opposed to the system.
by Arakis
Monday Dec 2nd, 2002 8:47 AM
You are all discussing what this guy did and some of you have even uttered the words "nothing is ever accomplished by killing someone" ....well you are all talking about it now. he was/is wrong to kill someone and he should be punished and I understand the anger some of you feel but this man has accomplished what he has set out to do, we have all read his words, if he had not killed a policeman would we all be in this website reading his post?

The problem now is copycats, they will try an emulate what this idiot did and we will grow imune to the shock and come to ignore them then what will happen, will the next guy who has a point to make kill a whole town? will it be the town you live in or your family.



by Isolationist
Monday Dec 2nd, 2002 9:48 AM
All systems have a hierarchy or leadership position of some sort. Even in “pure” systems there, are those who are acknowledged as “leaders” even though they don’t have the title and exert their influences to get their ways. The current system at least recognizes peoples need for leadership and human greed.
by Isolationist
Monday Dec 2nd, 2002 10:27 AM
In theory and pen and paper, sure there can be a “leaderless” government. In practical application, it will never work. It defies human nature. Even in the most basic/primitive societies and cultures, they have leaders or a leadership council. Look within ones family and you will discover hierarchy structure as well.
by a-noway
Monday Dec 2nd, 2002 1:10 PM
Anarchy would never work worldwide. It's not even worth discussing. If someone believes otherwise, let em. Keeps em out of my neighborhood.
by Someone sane
Monday Dec 2nd, 2002 2:38 PM
People, please be reasonable. What this man did has likely very little to do with his parents. His parents are likely heartbroken that their boy could do such a thing. Why on earth would you make this even more difficult for them by referring to him as "inbred" and making derogitory comments towards his mother and father and their supposed incestual behavior. I understand that you are all upset by this action, as am I. However, keep your comments within the bounds of reason and good taste. We're all shocked enough without having to wade through the trash of meaningless ramblings by thoughtless people. If we use this as an opportunity to discuss the actual issues debated here, we can help this act be not in vain, though still sadly senseless.
by WhizWart
Monday Dec 2nd, 2002 3:19 PM
Wow, I post, leave for a week, and this post goes haywire.....geez
by Jim Floyd
Monday Dec 2nd, 2002 4:03 PM
Do you happen to know why cops are sent to work as DARE officers in a school ...? Find out, please, and you'll discover how ironic all this is. This killing (nor any other) is not justified, but, please, before you write or say anything, look at the context. Being angry, dear, places you in a not-so-different position from Andy, except that what he said makes a lot more sense than your words will ever make; his actions, on the other hand, are very lamentable.
by Isolationist
Monday Dec 2nd, 2002 5:14 PM
I found a synopsis of “People Without Government: An Anthropology of Anarchy” and one of the societies Harold Barclay points to as a leaderless government are the Eskimos/Inuits. I’m not sure if he addresses this, but there are three items he needs to reexamine on the leadership in Eskimo/Inuit Society: 1st The function of the eldest male for each family as the authority figure for that family unit 2nd The function of Shamans within a tribe and 3rd The function that a Council of Elders played in the tribe.

The choice I made is to be knowledgeable in many fields and political philosophies and not limit myself to one type of though or philosophy. Can you say the same Nessie?
by Reggie
Monday Dec 2nd, 2002 6:50 PM
The article Truthseeker pointed out above is really great, you guys should definitely check it out.

http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/iraq.html

Very eye opening
by .......
Tuesday Dec 3rd, 2002 4:24 PM
What you cite is community self government, not a nation state.
It's like talking to a creationist. They say "Evolution is a myth!", then you point out many cases where species have been seen to evolve in a short time, and they say, "That's not evolution, that's MICRO-evolution! It's completely different!".

by Isolationist
Tuesday Dec 3rd, 2002 8:01 PM
And you’re quite the “scholar” and “expert” yourself nessie. You’re a paper theorist, everything looks good on paper, but for all those theories none of them have any practically application. And for one who seems so “against the system” I would wager that the system you despise so much has afforded you a comfortable living.

But to your point, there is economic disparity in Inuit Society. That disparity comes between the more productive members versus those who don’t contribute. The Hunters quite often gets first pick of their kills. Then the food is divided up according to production with the less productive members getting last pick of the food. This even applies to other items such as tools, clothing, housing, etc. Even when it comes to wives, typically the stronger more productive males gets first pick of brides.

So while the economic disparity isn’t as great as ours, there is economic disparity in Inuit Society. And maybe if you open your mind a bit more you might learn something from this “Cliff Notes Scholar”.
by In Red Bluff
Wednesday Dec 4th, 2002 12:15 AM
Many people feel the same way about ASSHOLES (like you!) good thing they dont act on it.

BUT think about this..one day they might.
by anonymous
Wednesday Dec 4th, 2002 12:26 AM
how you would feel had the cop shot the boy because the cop didn't agree with the boy's ideas? Especially if you live in Red Bluff.
by in Red Bluff
Wednesday Dec 4th, 2002 12:27 AM
The Above comment was aimed at those of you who think killing ANYONE is cool. People are people, no mater who they are and what they do. There are ASSHOLES in every profession, in all walks of life, in every sex and every race. They are not true examples of the majority of the people they represent. If we judge these groups by their exstremest examples, then we do not stand to have the right to be judged for who we are, not what we are!
by Russil Wvong
(russilwvong [at] yahoo.com) Wednesday Dec 4th, 2002 8:19 AM

That's really sad. My condolences to friends and family of Dave Mobilio.

Like many of us, Andrew Mickel wanted to make the world a better place. Where did he go wrong? He failed in two ways. One of his failures was moral; the other was intellectual.

His moral failure is that moral objectives do not justify immoral actions. One's goals may or may not be achieved, or even be achievable, but one's actions are concrete and real, with real consequences. Noble ends do not justify evil means. See George Kennan's Foreign Policy and Christian Conscience, published in the Atlantic Monthly, May 1959.

His intellectual failure is that he swallowed a great deal of anti-corporate, anti-government propaganda and conspiracy theory. (Paranoia and conspiracy theory are common themes in American history, from the Salem witch trials to McCarthy to Timothy McVeigh; the speculations in this thread that Andrew Mickel was framed are another example.) This gave him an extremely distorted view of American foreign policy and the American government. For example, he was deceived by the notorious George Kennan quote.

It's easy to be deceived by propaganda if you're ignorant of history. The first step to being able to detect propaganda, therefore, is to read books about world history. I've included a reading list as part of Noam Chomsky: a critical review.

by Isolationist
Wednesday Dec 4th, 2002 9:55 AM
From reading the SFIMC thread, sounds like there is dissention about the policies NoBAWC Board of Directors and the Employees. The fact that NoBAWC has a Board of Directors and Employees makes it a hierarchy structure.
by Gilligan
Wednesday Dec 4th, 2002 12:59 PM
Get on the right thread! Quit being rude.

To tell nessie where to stick it, go here:

http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/11/1546540_comment.php#1547436
by Caroline
(Catsmail [at] pacbell.net) Wednesday Dec 4th, 2002 9:24 PM
Well, there are a lot of ignorant postings here.

Specifically the HATE postings.
I especially the ones calling the man "gay" or "faggot" or insinuating butt-rape. This name calling is stupid and offensive. No one really knows how much butt-rape goes on in prison, therefore it is stupid to incinuate that this will happen...especially considering how well built the man is. (Not that you would know.)(He is ex-military, remember?)

The ridicules comments also fall into the category of ignorant.
including this one:
"You are suffering with paranoid schizophrenia. Please end your pain and kill yourself."
Why do people bother to post statements that don't make sense. The person who posted that is not someone who could ever diagnose "mental illnesses". Obvious to me at least.
I don't believe any of Andy's writing or Andy's actions were based on "paranoia" or "conspiracy theory".
If you don't think that wealthy society is living off of poor society, you should examine this "theory" further. Are you in the belief that you do not profit from "lower class" people? We let them work in crappy atmospheres for low wages.
We use people.

We keep it this way on purpose.
So that some people can be on top:
The wealthy enjoy the amazing things that they can do and create with money. Having people on top and bottom seems to fuel the development of technology and the economy...I mean everyone can't each have enough money to build rockets. Can they? It seems to help to have large concentrations of money in a few hands, in order to create the toys of this modern age.

Please refrain from emailing me if you have mean shit to say. Thank you.
by Guess who?
Wednesday Dec 4th, 2002 10:13 PM
"Nuts!!!
by Cop • Wednesday November 27, 2002 at 10:23 AM

What the hell! Go find another chunk of this earth and set up your little utopia. This freak and the others in here like Alciere, etc. should be put out to sea in four person rafts and set adrift in the predominant tides. if they wash back up to the shores of this fine country, incarcerate them within the same room and let their little utopian dream become a reality... they'll soon learn the lesson of "The Prince". If they opt to escape from their little utopian building... put them to work in factories assembling furniture, on the street driving cabs and buses, in the hospitals tending to the sick and injured, ... you know, lead them down that frightful and tormented path that the rest of us have had to travel for so long... self sufficiency without government or corporate subsistence!
Yeah, if we make them work for a living then they'd all want out!
Rot in hell McRae!!!
A cop in Olympia!"

I see American flags plastered on your cars and displayed at your residence. I see stars on blue and red and white stripes curling around the inside of your head.
#2: you spelled his name wrong.

[I admit, I'm pissed.]

#3 I'm tried of all this immature "rot in hell" crap. Especially from "a cop", dude, that's fucking immature. Dude.

#4 the "utopian dream", whatever you are refering to, cannot become a reality for incarcerated people.

And
Least importantly, Olympia cops tend to be pretty lame.

[Actually, I really hate to post this, but the cop didn't leave an email address. I enjoy venting, unfortunately, instead of giving piece of mind to the person I'm responding to, everybody who is not interested in my commentary on specific comments also ends up sifting through this....Which is what modivated me to inform you of the lameness of some Olympian cops.]
apoligies.
by NO ONE WINS
Wednesday Dec 4th, 2002 10:29 PM
YOU PEOPLE WHO THINK KILLING IS THE ANSWER ARE WRONG AGAIN. JUST LIKE THE SEPT. 11 ATTACK IT ONLY MADE US STRONGER.THE DAY THEY PUT DAVE TO REST THERE WERE PEOPLE FROM ALL OVER THE UNITED STATES HERE IN THIS LITTLE TOWN. KIDS AND ADULTS LINED THE STREETS FOR MILES HOLDING PERSONAL TOKENS. FROM FLOWERS TO PICTURES. WE ALL CAME TOGETHER THAT DAY. YOU COULDN'T IMAGINE HOW MANY OFFICERS FROM OTHER TOWNS, AND STATES WERE GATHERD TO PAY RESPECT FOR A FELLOW OFFICER. WHEN WE ALL GOT TO THE SERVICE ALL YOU COULD DO WAS LOOK IN AW AT ALL THE PEOPLE THAT CAME. BUT THE THING THAT SENT SHIVERS UP AND DOWN YOUR SPINE WAS TO SEE DAVES WIFE, SON, SISTER, MOTHER, AND FATHER SITTING THERE STAIRING AT A FLAGGED DRAPED COFFIN. FEELING THAT BIG LUMP IN THE BACK OF YOUR THROAT JUST TRYING TO IMAGINE LOSEING A SPOUSE, A DAD, SIBBLING, A SON, AND A FRIEND. THERE IS SOMETHING I WILL NEVER FORGET THAT DAY. THEY DID A SLIDE SHOW OF HIS LIFE AT THE BEGGING IT SHOWS A PICTURE OF HIM IN HIS UNIFORM HOLDING HIS BABY SON. IT WAS ALSO THE LAST PICTURE THEY SHOWED. HIS SON HIS WIFE HIS MOM AND DAD DID NOTHING WRONG BUT THEY ARE THE ONES WHO ARE GOING TO SUFFER NOT THE GOVERMENT OR ANY OTHER POLITACAL THING. IT WAS A FUNNERAL FOR A COP THAT DAY BUT THEY BURIED A PERSON.
by Katie
(cstod98918 [at] aol.com) Thursday Dec 5th, 2002 8:31 AM
I went to high school with Andy. We had a few classes together in our 4 years of high school. When I heard what he had done in our local papers I was shocked. It didn't seem like the guy I knew in school. When we were in school together he seemed like a laid back nice guy. He kept to himself and was intelligent. He participated in school activities, and was a good person. I had heard that he joined the Army and I was excited that he had chosen something worthwile to do with his life.. As a United States Marine Corps veteran, I know first hand how the military can change your life and how you look at the world. It makes you focus on things like war and killing, dicipline and the possibility of giving your life for your country, things that most civilians will never have to deal with. I do not blame the military for Andy's actions. I blame Andy. How he went from a normal focused kid to a killer, we may never know. I do feel extremely sorry for the family of the officer that was killed, and send our prayers to them from Andy's home town. We were all shocked and devistated that he has thrown away his life doing something that we never thought possible of him.
by Russil Wvong
(russilwvong [at] yahoo.com) Thursday Dec 5th, 2002 9:00 AM

Caroline wrote:

I don't believe any of Andy's writing or Andy's actions were based on "paranoia" or "conspiracy theory".

I'm afraid I have to disagree. The problems facing us are extremely complex and intimidating. Blaming all of them on a corporate conspiracy, as Andrew Mickel did, may be emotionally satisfying, but to me, blaming is always a substitute for thinking.

At best, Mickel is half-educated: he's intelligent enough to be able to repeat cliches, but he's unable to evaluate them, to distinguish truth from falsehood, as in the case of the Kennan quote.

Educator Howard Gardner describes this tendency to rely on stereotypes and cliches in The Disciplined Mind:

Most five-year-olds have developed a Star Wars script. Life consists of a struggle between Good and Bad forces, with the Good generally triumphant. Many movies and television programs, and a few events in real life, can adequately be described in terms of such a script. Most historical events or works of literature, however, prove far more complex; to understand the causes of World War I or the U.S. Civil War, or to grasp the thrust of a novel by Hawthorne or Austen, one must weigh and integrate multiple factors and nuances. Students learn in class to give more complex explanations for such historical or literary events. Yet, when they are confronted with new and unfamiliar materials--say, a story from another culture, or a war in an unfamiliar part of the world--even capable students lapse to an elemental way of thinking. The Star Wars "good guy-bad guy" script is often invoked in such situations, even when it is manifestly inappropriate.

And of course Mickel's moral failure is even worse than his intellectual failure. What makes him different from Timothy McVeigh, other than the number of his victims?

Mickel thought he was Luke Skywalker, battling the Empire; or Peter Pan, battling Captain Hook. Alas, he's just a murderer.

by Russil Wvong
(russilwvong [at] yahoo.com) Thursday Dec 5th, 2002 11:47 AM

Caroline asked about wealth and poverty. Again, the problems are complicated. Here's another reading list, focusing on domestic political issues.

  • E. J. Dionne, Why Americans Hate Politics
  • Anthony King, Running Scared
  • William Julius Wilson, When Work Disappears
  • Neil Postman, The Disappearance of Childhood
  • Joshua Meyrowitz, No Sense of Place
  • Paul Krugman, The Age of Diminished Expectations
  • George Kennan, Around the Cragged Hill
by Shawn
Thursday Dec 5th, 2002 12:24 PM
You cannot blame this case of mania on a unified social movement. Especially the enviro-movement. Your blind remarks resemble the rest of the conservative cowpoke F-150 drivin George W. Bush supportin hound dogs of RB...
peace
by Shawn
Thursday Dec 5th, 2002 12:34 PM
hey buba, you said you wanted to take the man who claimed responsibilty for the death of teh RB police officer to the annual bull sale. You stated that you and the "good ole boys" would have you're way with him. I bet you would like to take him out behind the Sun Country Fair Grounds and show him you're manhood. Show him what it means to be a man (work at Wal-Mart DC) in RB...Show him what it means to have class in RB (membership at Wilcox GC). Face it, you're nothing but a Ford truck man...
peace out
by Shawn
Thursday Dec 5th, 2002 12:43 PM
The man that killed the cop was only modeling the tactics of the police state. It is killing in the name of killing. The U.S. government is closely connected to cultural producing institutions (mass media) and their relationship has great effects on public opinion. This relationship has sold the American public the so-called war on terror. Who are the greatest terrorizers of the world? The U.S. is the only regime that ever inflicted nuclear weapons on innocent people. Violence and murder is wrong, but how do you compete with a government that bases its acheiments is violent oppression. We are not the World. Forget that popular 80's slogan.
peace
by Shawn
Thursday Dec 5th, 2002 12:48 PM
Your're a cow poking moron to connect Allah and Islam to the death of the police officer in RB. Shame on you. Go tip some cows and share you're manhood with the sheep
peace out
by S
Thursday Dec 5th, 2002 1:04 PM
Well buba did get kicked in the head, but it was by a wild bull. Nothing but a bunch of jack rabbit chasing, palomino room infesting, bull sale occupying, Red Bluff Ford shopping, Starbucks drinking, Fork Raging, Pork rasing, Natural Ice drinking, Bar fighting, wife beating, conservative, George W Bush loving, Ford Truck Driving, Tool lickin, Rusty Nail steppin, Main street antique shoppin, Boat Draggin, cowpokes.

But they just got a Longs Drug Strore....movin on up
by Russil Wvong
(russilwvong [at] yahoo.com) Thursday Dec 5th, 2002 2:10 PM

Shawn wrote:

Violence and murder is wrong, but ...

But what? Immoral actions cannot be justified by moral objectives.

by jenny
Thursday Dec 5th, 2002 4:23 PM
question:

http://www.redbluffdailynews.com/display/inn_news/news11.txt

answer:

okay I guess, but I hear RB bubba is havin a hard time with his. bubba's lookin for a brand new pair of pink lace panties, a butt plug, and a new tattoo that reads "i'm a bitch."
by Phill
Friday Dec 6th, 2002 6:26 AM
For all you Americans out there, your ignorance will be your undoing! After reading all these comments, I'm amazed at the low level of intelligence you people seem to share.
Andy was right about a number of things, he seems well read and very intelligent. Americans care only about America. They have no knowledge about the world as a whole nor about what their corrupt government does to destroy it. Previous postings from Americans are rife with grammer and spelling errors. One poster even spelt Osama wrong!!!
It scares me when a country, where six out of ten of it citizens couldn't find Afganistan on a map, and 2 out of ten couldn't even find America, forces its foreign policies on other countries. For Christ's sake, you even elected a man who had never travelled outside the States, to Presidency!!
Andy committed a grave sin, and for that he should be punished.
My only hope is that some good comes out of this travesty and that his words can inspire more Americans to investigate the actions of their country and stand up and be heard.

America, the land of the free and the brave. Don't make me laugh....
by Rent_Treznor
Friday Dec 6th, 2002 7:47 AM
Bush wasn't elected by popular vote.The only reason he won the presidency was because his *brother* is the Gov. of Florida.I actually find it insulting when people insinuate that we voted him into office,because its not the case.I'd rather vote that idiot into riding a cardboard submarine then run so much as a grocery store.I find the fact that the man who runs our country and has access to our entire nuclear arsenal dosent know the name of Canada's prime minister,our largest undefended border (Jean Cretion ,fyi),and didnt know that Brazil has black people.It's a sad state of affairs,but as I said,he only won because of Florida and his brother.

As far as the moron who killed the cop,yes,I hate the system.Yes,our leaders have their heads up their asses.Yes,things need to change,and soon.Does that justify random killings of people who are just doing their jobs,doing what they're told to do so they can support a family,because they happen to represent that system? Fuck no.You've got life screwed up.The police aren't some big,evil,faceless guestapo here to rob us of our civil rights,they're fathers,mothers,brothers,sisters,daughters,sons,just like the rest of us.Its not their fault our system is fucked,its the senators and polititions.I'm not saying "ignore the police and kill the polititions",if things are going to change,it has to be done without violence.Otherwise they'll just justify their methods by pointing out the 'terrorist' actions of the people who oppose them.Anyways,thats my 2 cents.Doubt anyone'll read this given the excessive amount of posts before it,but I just wanted to toss that out there.

And not all Americans are fat,lazy,stupid,etc.Just as all Afghani arent extremist Shite Muslims,just as all Canadians dont watch hockey,just as all black people dont eat fried chicken and watermelon,etc etc.Stereotypes only exceed in showing everyone how ignorant you are.

.</rant>
by Rent_Treznor
Friday Dec 6th, 2002 8:03 AM
And yes,I know I mispelled "Chrétien".Its not due to ignorance on my part so much as my inability with French spellings. ^^
by STACIE
Friday Dec 6th, 2002 8:45 AM
NO KIDDING, THIS IS UNREAL. I HAVE BEEN READING ALL OF THIS "STUFF" FOR HOURS. I AM FROM OHIO AND I READ A SMALL CLIP IN THE DAYTON DAILY NEWS ABOUT ANDY'S MOTHER TURNING HIM IN TO THE POLICE AFTER HE TOLD HER THAT HE HAD TAKEN SOMEONE'S LIFE. I LOOKED UP THE ARTICLE ABOVE. THERE IS ANDY'S CONFESSION. I HAVE NOT HEARD ANYTHING ELSE. THIS IS SO BIZARRE. AND THE PERSON IDENTIFYING THEMSELVE AS JENNY (ON THIS PAGE) IS REALLY COOL-YOU SEEM TO KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. SOME OF THE OTHER THINGS POSTED HERE ARE STRAIGHT OUT GOOFY. I SUPPOSE PEOPLE HAVE TO VENT SOMEWHERE. MY PRAYER'S GO OUT TO THE FAMILIES INVOLVED.
by Friend
Friday Dec 6th, 2002 10:12 AM
I'm saddened over the taking of Officer Mobilio's life. What this so-called "activist" did was a reprehensible crime against an innocent man. Mobilio was just a man doing a job... he was a very small cog in a big machine, and no one had the right to lay all of the faults of this world on Mobilio... and then execute him for it.

To all of the fine human beings out there who serve in various Police agencies... Men and Women who serve our communities with honor... please don't think that the monster who carried off this act represents anyone but himself. I'm proudly anti-war... I've been marching for years for various causes... including marches against Police brutality. But the shooting and killing of Officer Mobilio is beyond the pale. I think most people on the Indymedia network would agree.
by It wasnt political
Friday Dec 6th, 2002 10:17 AM
The officer was shot for some other reason. Why would someone go to a small town in the middle of nowhere and shoot a police officer at a gas station to make a political point? It makes no sense.

But it would make sense if the officer was shot during the process of trying to arrest McCrea (drugs, speeding, stolen car, ...) and McCrea posted all this shit to try to make himself seem more justified.
by Kali
Friday Dec 6th, 2002 12:59 PM
Just a few simple words of advice.

Before you start accusing others of ignorance and improper grammAr it might be wise to learn to spell grammAr.

Before you criticize Americans of not knowing where AfgHanistan is on a map perhaps you should first learn how to spell AfgHanistan.

When you want to make a point about someone never having travel_ed outside of the U.S. It is usually best to know how to spell travel_ed.

I could continue pointing out grammatical errors and punctuation mishaps but decided pointing out the obvious would suffice. We all have errors in our writing from time to time . In most instances however, it does not determine one's intelligence. In your case you felt (rhymes with spelt) the need to point out these mistakes as your example of American ignorance. Instead you only pointed out your own short comings. Good try though. By the way, what country are you from so we here in America can at least get the question right that asks, "What country has at least one idiot that points out others faults and while doing so proceeds to show their own ignorance?"
by jenny
Friday Dec 6th, 2002 3:30 PM
I apologize for sounding like a broken record, but where’s the EVIDENCE? In checking news wire services today I haven’t found anything new on “SUSPECT” McCrae other than unsubstantiated admissions.

http://www.chicoer.com/articles/2002/12/03/news/news1.txt

http://www.cmonitor.com/stories/news/recent2002/fugitive%5Fparents%5F2002.shtml

Saying “I did it” and telling others “I did it” in itself should never constitute proof beyond a reasonable doubt once this case goes to court. Come on, with every admission some corroboration is needed so where is it? Beware coppers that “FABRICATING” or “MANUFACTURING” a criminal case against McCrae based solely on unsubstantiated admissions and because of his political beliefs could jeopardize the prosecution of your case. Another thing, I wonder how the Criminal Complaint against McCrae will read once he’s returned to Tehema County? You know, the criminal complaint in this case is considered a public record and available to anyone for a minor fee. For those interested in viewing or purchasing a copy of this complaint, contact: Tehema County Superior Court, Criminal Division Records Clerk, 445 Pine, Red Bluff, CA, 96080, (530)527-3563 or (530)527-3350. It’s the right of every American citizen to be able to monitor the performance of “public servants,” government officials and government agencies, and one way of doing this is through the review of public records to make sure our civil servants abide by all the rules and don’t abuse their power.
by Alex Breitler
(abreitler [at] redding.com) Friday Dec 6th, 2002 3:52 PM
<table width="75%" border="0">
<tr><td><h3>Police build case in cop killing</h3>
<p><b>Alleged confession not only evidence, R.B. officials say</b></p>
<p>Alex Breitler<br>
Record Searchlight<br>
December 05, 2002 — 2:18 a.m.</p>
<p>RED BLUFF — An alleged confession isn't all that links Andrew McCrae to the killing of Red Bluff police officer Dave Mobilio, police said Wednesday.
"We are working on a number of items," said Red Bluff police Cmdr. Mace McIntosh. "<b>We have evidence other than his confession.</b>" They have not, however, found the gun used in the shooting, and McCrae's car — which authorities believe may be connected to the crime — remained missing Wednesday, McIntosh said.</p>
<p>Investigators may travel out of state to find out more about McCrae, 23, an Army veteran who was attending college in Olympia, Wash. Red Bluff police have not yet interviewed McCrae, who remained held without bail in Concord, N.H., where he was arrested last week.</p>
<p>Mobilio, 31, was shot to death Nov. 19 while fueling his patrol car at a north Red Bluff gas station. Six days later, McCrae posted documents on the Internet confessing to the crime. He said he killed Mobilio to protest police tactics and corporate irresponsibility. <b>He also called his parents prior to his arrest</b>, which tipped police off to his whereabouts.</p>
<p>But the case against him apparently runs deeper than those Internet posts and the phone call, and police continue to dig for leads. "Just because we arrested him does not mean that the investigation stops," McIntosh said. "There's a lot of work left to be done."</p>
<p>The arrest warrant for McCrae remained sealed at the Tehama County Superior Court on Wednesday. A warrant issued to search McCrae's apartment in Olympia also is under seal. But an affidavit for arrest filed in New Hampshire offers a few new details.</p>
<p>McCrae arrived at the Holiday Inn in Concord on Nov. 24, paying for his room in cash, Concord police reported. He presented his Washington driver's license, which employees photocopied. Two days later, on Nov. 26, Red Bluff police faxed an arrest warrant to Concord police about 3 a.m. The fax included a photo of McCrae.</p>
<p>He was arrested that day after several hours of negotiations. Police used the photocopy of the driver's license to determine that their suspect at the hotel was in fact McCrae.</p>
<p>Under New Hampshire law, authorities have 90 days from the date of McCrae's arrest to extradite him to California to face charges, said Tehama County District Attorney Gregg Cohen. He is preparing a governor's warrant that must be signed by Gov. Gray Davis and by New Hampshire Gov. Jeanne Shaheen.</p>
<p>It's too soon to tell when this will be done, Cohen said. A spokeswoman for Davis said Monday she expected the warrant in about a week. "Right now everything's going along as planned," Cohen said Wednesday. Cohen said he will assemble a review team to determine if prosecutors should seek the death penalty.</p>
<p>Authorities again asked for the public's help finding McCrae's car, which was described as a <b>maroon 1992 Ford Mustang hatchback with tinted windows, a rear spoiler and Washington license plate 595NAB.</b></p>
<p>Thursday, December 5, 2002</p></td></tr></table>
by Alex Breitler
(abreitler [at] redding.com) Friday Dec 6th, 2002 3:52 PM

Police build case in cop killing

Alleged confession not only evidence, R.B. officials say

Alex Breitler
Record Searchlight
December 05, 2002 — 2:18 a.m.

RED BLUFF — An alleged confession isn't all that links Andrew McCrae to the killing of Red Bluff police officer Dave Mobilio, police said Wednesday. "We are working on a number of items," said Red Bluff police Cmdr. Mace McIntosh. "We have evidence other than his confession." They have not, however, found the gun used in the shooting, and McCrae's car — which authorities believe may be connected to the crime — remained missing Wednesday, McIntosh said.

Investigators may travel out of state to find out more about McCrae, 23, an Army veteran who was attending college in Olympia, Wash. Red Bluff police have not yet interviewed McCrae, who remained held without bail in Concord, N.H., where he was arrested last week.

Mobilio, 31, was shot to death Nov. 19 while fueling his patrol car at a north Red Bluff gas station. Six days later, McCrae posted documents on the Internet confessing to the crime. He said he killed Mobilio to protest police tactics and corporate irresponsibility. He also called his parents prior to his arrest, which tipped police off to his whereabouts.

But the case against him apparently runs deeper than those Internet posts and the phone call, and police continue to dig for leads. "Just because we arrested him does not mean that the investigation stops," McIntosh said. "There's a lot of work left to be done."

The arrest warrant for McCrae remained sealed at the Tehama County Superior Court on Wednesday. A warrant issued to search McCrae's apartment in Olympia also is under seal. But an affidavit for arrest filed in New Hampshire offers a few new details.

McCrae arrived at the Holiday Inn in Concord on Nov. 24, paying for his room in cash, Concord police reported. He presented his Washington driver's license, which employees photocopied. Two days later, on Nov. 26, Red Bluff police faxed an arrest warrant to Concord police about 3 a.m. The fax included a photo of McCrae.

He was arrested that day after several hours of negotiations. Police used the photocopy of the driver's license to determine that their suspect at the hotel was in fact McCrae.

Under New Hampshire law, authorities have 90 days from the date of McCrae's arrest to extradite him to California to face charges, said Tehama County District Attorney Gregg Cohen. He is preparing a governor's warrant that must be signed by Gov. Gray Davis and by New Hampshire Gov. Jeanne Shaheen.

It's too soon to tell when this will be done, Cohen said. A spokeswoman for Davis said Monday she expected the warrant in about a week. "Right now everything's going along as planned," Cohen said Wednesday. Cohen said he will assemble a review team to determine if prosecutors should seek the death penalty.

Authorities again asked for the public's help finding McCrae's car, which was described as a maroon 1992 Ford Mustang hatchback with tinted windows, a rear spoiler and Washington license plate 595NAB.

Thursday, December 5, 2002

by jenny
Friday Dec 6th, 2002 8:49 PM
Interesting article, keep the info coming.

Statements by cops about “boxes of evidence” and “evidence other than a confession” mean absolutely nothing. Coppers, if you really have evidence, then you need to start answering some of the following questions.

RB Crime Scene:
Can anyone place the suspect at the crime scene?
What kind of gun was used, pistol or revolver, caliber? Was it recovered? (No)
Any slugs or casings recovered?
Any footprint or tire tracks?
Any video surveillance camera at or near crime scene depicting the suspect?
Any fingerprints on or in the cop car that doesn’t belong to the victim?
Any indication of a physical altercation between the suspect and victim?
Any transference of evidence (bodily fluids, hair, fibers, etc)
Cops routinely carry micro-cassette recorders hidden in an extra handcuff case on their gun belts, did the victim in this case have one and was it activated when the incident occurred?
Area check for clues, what did it turn up? (neighbors, gas stations, motels, etc)

Alibi
Does the suspect have an alibi placing him somewhere other than the crime scene?

Concord Motel
Did arresting cops find the gun (or any gun)?
Any ammo found in the suspect’s possession similar to what was used in the crime?
Any expended cartridges found in the suspect’s belongings?
Any receipts for ammo, gun(s), gun supplies, etc?
Any receipts for gas, food, lodging, etc placing the suspect at or near the crime scene?
Separate and apart from any spontaneous admission or statement, what evidence was found on the suspect’s person and clothing (blood, hair, fibers, organic matter, gunshot residue, etc) linking him to the crime.
Does the soles of the suspect’s shoes match impressions taken at the crime scene (if applicable)?
Any sign the suspect was in a recent physical altercation?
ATF history of gun purchases for the suspect? What about one that matches the murder weapon?

Suspect’s Car (if and when found)
Any physical/trace evidence that places suspect at or near the crime scene?
Since RB is a rural community, how did the suspect’s car get away so fast?
Does the suspect have any RB connections?
If the suspect Mustang had stock factory tires, do the treads match those found at or near the crime scene?
Expended cartridges? Ballistic evidence? Odometer reading?

Olympia Apartment
Any physical/trace evidence placing suspect at or near the crime scene?
Any receipts, documents, papers, etc, placing suspect at or near the crime scene?
Other than the one used, were there any guns found in the suspect’s apartment?
Any ammo? Similar to ammo used in crime?
Receipts or documents for gun purchases, repairs, etc?
Check any of the local gun ranges for clues?

Prior Acts
Ever investigated or arrested for a violent act, gun related crime, or violence towards a cop?

Okay, maybe I’m asking too much here (or not enough), but until some of these questions have been answered all the cops have at this point are the unsubstantiated statements of a person who may have used this whole situation (and IMC) to bring attention to himself and his ideas. A copy of the Criminal Complaint against McCrae should be published on the IMC site. Personally, I think the evidence in this case is weak and that’s why specifics haven’t been released.


by cp
Friday Dec 6th, 2002 11:28 PM
Yes. It is pretty clear that it would have been really difficult for McCrae to have posted the confession himself to sf.imc 3 hrs before he was taken into custody, especially considering that they had a standoff that lasted several hours in which he demanded that a journalist come speak to him. However, I personally would be more convinced by his free statements to the journalist, or to his current statements. Confessions at the jailhouse clearly can be coerced - just look at those kids who have been in jail the past 12 years for the Central Park Jogger case that has been in the news lately. About 5 kids gave confessions with totally different details, and now with genetic testing plus a person who really did it now confessed and who had matching dna, it is clear that they had been forced by the police to make up some story - they had either been threatened or had been promised that they could go free if they confessed.
However here, I would take his present statements somewhat seriously. It would be very interesting to know who posted the confession to sf.imc though.
by Kali
Saturday Dec 7th, 2002 12:32 AM
I agree Jenny!!

The investigators probably don't have ANY evidence at all on this guy. I mean heck, if they really do have evidence why won't they release it to the media? What are they trying to hide?

Here they have a poor innocent man sitting in jail accused of murdering a cop and the only evidence they have is his posting on this website and a confession to a reporter and his parents. Poor kid was probably just looking for attention and those damn cops are just looking for someone to hang the murder on so they can pat themselves on the back.

They don't even care that the REAL killer is out there roaming the streets planning his next murder on another cop.

How long do they think they can hold this guy without any evidence? What kind of stupid attorney does he have that would not get him released. Probably a public defender that is working with the cops. That's how they are ya know.

What about all those boxes they took out of his apartment in Olympia. What was in those boxes? They were probably empty and were just making us THINK they got some evidence.

How stupid do they think we are?

It's one BIG conspiracy that started out with a small rural town cop getting murdered in cold blood while fueling his patrol car in the middle of the night. AND now involves several states law enforcement, FBI and the Department of Justice. Oh and two Governors and the election is already over.

Right!!!! [ insert sarcasm here ]

Seriously now.....

Why in the world would they release evidence in a case they have not finished investigating?

IF there are others involved in some way what would be the point in tipping them off as to what evidence they have found?

In order for the investigators to believe McCrae's confession he would have to give them some information that only the killer would know.

Evidence is used to convict a person of a crime during a trial not as a story to sell newspapers. As far as I know McCrae is not on trial as of this moment.

Personally, your posts make me wonder about you. A bit disturbing I might add!!!!

Now, to all in the RBPD and Tehama County SO:

I think you guys/gals are doing a GREAT job!! Keep up the good work and stay safe. You are all in my prayers daily.

Thank you!!!






by jenny
Saturday Dec 7th, 2002 3:22 PM
Now, now Cali. Please don’t get bent out of shape here just because there are people with legitimate questions and concerns about this case and all the anti-IMC postings from the Cop Community. Knowledge and truth can be a disturbing thing especially to those who are in the business of controlling and suppressing it.

Power to the Press!

P.S. Cali, can you please check my spelling and punctuation?
by Kali
Saturday Dec 7th, 2002 11:21 PM
What happened? I thought things were going just fine?

You seemed to be spewing so well and now all you have is "power to the press"?

Nice way to avoid the issues I brought to your attention.

I am so disappointed!

By the way my shape is perfectly fine but thanks for the concern. That was real sweet.

Oh! Color me red... I get it!! You were insinuating that I was upset!!

Nope. Just pointing out another view on the subject.

I must say however, you are a very interesting person.

You make the assumption that the police have a weak case based purely on the fact that YOU DON'T KNOW what evidence they have.

I think that information is given on a need-to-know basis. Perhaps at this time they don't feel YOU need to know.

Here's an idea. Why don't you contact McCrae's attorney. I'm pretty certain he is extremely close to the need-to-know position.

Another suggestion is contacting the Tehama County District Attorney, Gregg Cohen. Now I bet he is really in the need-to-know position. Give him a call. He is a great person. I'm sure he could help answer some questions for you. I don't have his phone number handy but you can probably find it on your own. If not let me know I will get it for you.

If you REALLY want the information go look for it. I don't think it will just fall in your lap. But hey, I've been wrong before.

Finally....
You asked for me to check your spelling and punctuation. Be honest...... Do you really want me to check it for you or are you just poking fun and actually referring to my response to Phil?

I will assume the latter and in that case perhaps you should go back and read his comment FIRST and then my response to him. If reading comprehension is a problem for you I will be more than happy to explain why I felt the need to point out the mistakes in his "ignorant Americans" ranting.

Until we meet again,

POWER TO THE PRESS
POWER TO THE COP-HATERS
POWER TO THE FOOLISH
blah, blah, blah!!!!

Oh, one more thing. Let me know what you find out from Cohen or McCrae's attorney and we will compare notes.

Also, keep reading the newspapers. You might be surprised with what you see.












by jenny
Sunday Dec 8th, 2002 2:22 PM
Now, now Cali, you seem tense and I didn’t mean to do that to you. Maybe you should go out, have a couple of drinks, loosen-up, and forget about spending your Saturday nights stewing over posts from people who dislike cops or who aren’t sympathetic to your victim. “Power to the cop-haters,” thanks, I left that one out. Sure, there are a lot of folks who dislike cops because the majority of cops are “dirty.” They falsify reports, fabricate cases, tamper with evidence, brutalize civilians, etc. With regard to the “need-to-know” issue the public has this right because anytime a cop puts handcuffs on a person the public has a right to know WHY? In the RB case, we need an “independent link” that supports the suspect’s admission, that’s all. Statements about “boxes of evidence” or “I did it,” just doesn’t cut it. Using the DC sniper case as an example, the public knew within a very short time following the arrest that there was a ballistics match between the gun taken off the suspects and the bullets fired into the victims. This is all the public wants in the RB case. Why is it okay to release information about evidence when a "civilian" is involved but, when a dead cop is involved, it's all a big secret? Cali, Cali, Cali, you need to get out of the house and maybe start hanging out at a cop bar to cheer you up. Again, can ya please check my spellin, etc, and while you’re at it, can ya do the same for the 300-plus posts on this subject. Thanks in advance.
by kollontai
Sunday Dec 8th, 2002 3:09 PM
One good man Philip Berrigan died. Why am I putting it on this thread. I discovered that I don't know how to start a thread. I went to nyc.indymedia.org to give possible evidence of one good cop, the one who was suspended in New York for 30 days because he wouldn't harass the homeless. HE just said NO. I couldn't find the one good cop story but here's the story of a veteran good man: Phil Berrigan

http://nyc.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=40531&group=webcast


BALTIMORE - December 6 - Phil Berrigan died December 6, 2002 at about 9:30 PM, at Jonah House, a community he co-founded in 1973, surrounded by family and friends. He died two months after being diagnosed with liver and kidney cancer, and one month after deciding to discontinue chemotherapy.

Philip Berrigan, Anti-War Activist Dead at 79

Philip Berrigan, Anti-War Activist,
Dies at Home in Baltimore, MD
by Kali
Sunday Dec 8th, 2002 5:54 PM
Tense?? You noticed that? You are so observant. Don't worry though, it isn't your fault. See, I get this way around Christmas. It is my favorite time of the year but for some reason it stresses me out. I spent all day shopping, driving in traffic, you know the whole Christmas rush sort of thing. My feet were killing me by the time I got home. I don't drink (ok that's a little lie. I do drink on a rare occasion) but a nice warm eggnog would have hit the spot last night. Thanks for noticing and I apologize for making you feel you were somehow responsible. I hate when that happens.

You did point out something about spending Saturday night stewing over posts from people who dislike cops. Where are those posts? It might be fun to read someone else's point of view. I am getting a little bored with yours. I thought you would be a bit more challenging. Instead you seem to have lied down, exposed your belly and revealed your ignorance.

I guess with this being Sunday you weren't able to make contact with anybody who would be able to give you information. It's so hard to wait but hang in there, tomorrow will be here before you know it.

Good point on the D.C. sniper case.

But I'm a little confused on something maybe you could help me with. I wasn't aware that the sniper confessed to the murders. I thought he was caught sleeping in his car at a rest stop and they needed to let the public know that they DID have SOMETHING to link him to the murders. I also thought there was a good bit of evidence found near the victims that the general public didn't know about for quite a while. I wonder why they didn't release that information right away??? Hmmm....Live and learn I guess.

Seeing that my initial observation on your reading comprehension was accurate I need to say to you again....

IF (and that's a BIG IF) you REALLY want the information go look for it.

By saying that I mean....

The information is out there on the great world wide web. All you have to do is know where to find it. I DID!! It is not spelled out on ONE website, hence my statement, "I don't think it will fall in your lap." so that may be a problem for you.

It would be obvious to you if you cared to look. The problem is YOU don't want to look. Cop bashing is more fun and doesn't require as much work.

That's fine. It's kinda fun knowing what I know and watching you wish you did. When they release the information I will give you the website addresses that I have already found. That way you will be able to see how easy it was to put things together.

I checked your spelling for you like asked and it seemed just fine. Don't think I will do it for you every time because at some point you need to start being responsible for yourself. As for ALL the other posts....I think Phil already did that.

Now, if you can't come up with some new arguments (yours have been around for years) I think we are pretty much done because like my mom has always told me, "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience!" It appears you must be very experienced.






by paully d
(pdesrocher [at] hotmail.com) Sunday Dec 8th, 2002 8:59 PM
an excellent response. I feel exactly the same. I want to have your baby! Oh wait, I guess that's not prudent in this day and age. Uh, maybe we could just have coffee?
by jenny
Monday Dec 9th, 2002 3:16 PM
Damn Cali, your responses keep getting longer and longer, good. Plain and simple, nothing concrete has been presented to the public to substantiate the suspect’s claims. There’s nothing that “physically” places him at the crime scene other than the standard old “I did it,” and “boxes” of anti-establishment literature taken away from him, which will somehow be weaved into this case to sway a jury later. With regard to this whole website stuff, you’re a liar. You really should get this little problem with tension and stress checked out because you’re starting to tell, “little lies.” One reason for this stress might be your inability to cope with the fact that there are many people in this world who just don’t give a damn about your dead cop, but what they do care about is that the system works properly and that there is no rush to pin this crime on the first available warm body that comes along just because it’s “convenient.” You see, when a cop gets dusted on the street the feeding frenzy begins and the rest of them want to lynch the first person that comes along even if it means breaking the rules. In cases like this and since it’s a big brotherhood, many of them want to be the first one to put a bullet in the suspect’s head in defense of their brother’s honor and for bragging rights later down in the police locker room or local cop bar. Luckily for Suspect McCrae this didn’t happen because a reporter was brought into the picture and it would have looked bad on camera if on-the-spot justice were administered. So what’s left, build a case around him by portraying him as a radical nut and contaminate the minds of the jurors. Now, if the suspect gets convicted in this case based on “good, solid evidence,” an eye-witness at the scene or by him providing the cops with specific details about the crime that only the suspect would know, wonderful, he’ll pay dearly, the system will have worked, and everyone goes home happy. Prosecute the suspect for his acts--don’t persecute him for his thoughts. Cali, Cali, Cali, ya got too much cop-cum being pumped into your head, you’ve been brainwashed. Happy holidays. (See, I even got ya a coffee date, no thanks needed)
by your audience
Tuesday Dec 10th, 2002 5:59 AM
now what cali person. no comment for jenni? she does know what she is talking about. man, you are really upset about that. are you not? keep those attitudes flaring. this is sooo way better than jerry springer.
by Russil Wvong
(russilwvong [at] yahoo.com) Tuesday Dec 10th, 2002 10:48 AM

Jenny writes: "Plain and simple, nothing concrete has been presented to the public to substantiate the suspect’s claims."

I'm afraid I have to agree with Kali. Of course Mickel hasn't been tried and convicted yet, but his posting a confession to a slew of IMC websites, his confessing to his parents, and his confessing to the reporter seem like pretty strong evidence that he actually did it.

Of course any evidence can be regarded as a possible forgery by a sufficiently clever and powerful adversary (somebody could have called Mickel's parents pretending to be him, for example), but an adversary able to forge all of the evidence against Mickel would have to be so diabolically clever as to be implausible.

Or you could argue that maybe Mickel confessed to the crime, but he didn't commit it. I suppose that's possible, but his parents certainly believed his confession (they were the ones who called the FBI).

This discussion reminds me of Orwell's comments in "Notes on Nationalism":

INDIFFERENCE TO REALITY. All nationalists have the power of not seeing resemblances between similar sets of facts. A British Tory will defend self-determination in Europe and oppose it in India with no feeling of inconsistency. Actions are held to be good or bad, not on their own merits, but according to who does them, and there is almost no kind of outrage -- torture, the use of hostages, forced labour, mass deportations, imprisonment without trial, forgery, assassination, the bombing of civilians -- which does not change its moral colour when it is committed by "our" side. The Liberal News Chronicle published, as an example of shocking barbarity, photographs of Russians hanged by the Germans, and then a year or two later published with warm approval almost exactly similar photographs of Germans hanged by the Russians. It is the same with historical events. History is thought of largely in nationalist terms, and such things as the Inquisition, the tortures of the Star Chamber, the exploits of the English buccaneers (Sir Francis Drake, for instance, who was given to sinking Spanish prisoners alive), the Reign of Terror, the heroes of the Mutiny blowing hundreds of Indians from the guns, or Cromwell's soldiers slashing Irishwomen's faces with razors, become morally neutral or even meritorious when it is felt that they were done in the "right" cause. If one looks back over the past quarter of a century, one finds that there was hardly a single year when atrocity stories were not being reported from some part of the world; and yet in not one single case were these atrocities -- in Spain, Russia, China, Hungary, Mexico, Amritsar, Smyrna -- believed in and disapproved of by the English intelligentsia as a whole. Whether such deeds were reprehensible, or even whether they happened, was always decided according to political predilection.

Chronicle Staff Writer
Wednesday, December 4, 2002


The parents of a man accused of killing a Red Bluff police officer said Tuesday that they contacted authorities after their son bragged to them about the killing in a phone call.

The Nov. 25 tip allowed Red Bluff police and the FBI to find and arrest Andrew Hampton McCrae, 23, the next morning in a Holiday Inn in Concord, N.H.

"That was a big break for us," said Red Bluff Police Chief Robert Petitt. "It was a very honorable thing for them to do."

The parents said Tuesday that they had mixed emotions about contacting police.

"I pray that we did the right thing," McCrae's father, Stan Mickel, said in a telephone interview from his home in Ohio. "It's a troubling situation for us."

Mickel and his wife, Karen, called authorities several days after the killing of Red Bluff Police Officer David Mobilio on Nov. 19.

"We love our son but absolutely denounce his recent actions," said Stan Mickel, a professor of Asian studies at Wittenberg University in Springfield, Ohio. "We did what we felt was the right thing to do."

Neither Mickel nor police would say exactly what McCrae told his parents or what they passed on to investigators. Petitt confirmed to local reporters that the Mickels had tipped off police about their son but would not discuss details.

Mobilio was killed in an ambush-style attack as he refueled his patrol car. He was shot twice in the left side before being shot at close range in the back of the head, according to a Red Bluff police affidavit.

Tehama County District Attorney Gregg Cohen has prepared a warrant to extradite McCrae, who is being held without bail in New Hampshire. Gov. Gray Davis plans to sign the warrant as early as next week, his office said Tuesday.

That could mean McCrae would return to California in the next three months.

McCrae was arrested after he allegedly posted confessions online claiming he killed Mobilio to make a statement about police brutality and corporate irresponsibility. Some of the e-mails, which were sent out from Nov. 22 to 25, contained apologies for the killing.

McCrae, who spent three years in the Army, enrolled at Evergreen State College in Olympia, Wash., last year. Authorities say he flew to New Hampshire on Nov. 24; his parents said they don't know why he adopted the surname McCrae several months ago.
by james rolf
Tuesday Dec 10th, 2002 1:39 PM
The people of Tehama County demand the public execution of Andrew McCrae by hanging following his due process to prove his guilt. This is the only responsible action by a "free" people.

James Rolf
by *****
Tuesday Dec 10th, 2002 2:00 PM
Jenny, I have to ask? Are you an attorney? You seem as if you could beat this case with defacto laws. Considering Andrew M. shuts his mouth. He could plea insanity. He must be that. Since he shot an officer then posted his actions on www. There have been rumors that this kid "bragged" to his parents about the shooting. Not true. He did tell them he shot a police officer. And he told them why. Bottom line this is not some sort of joke to him he found it all too serious, he felt that he was not being heard and taken seriously. So he acted on it!! He has everyone's (except corperate america) attention now. Unfortunatly a life has been lost and what is really sad is that it will probably not be the last because Andy has dug himself a really deep hole. I am not saying that the officer deserved what happened but there are a lot of "crooked" law enforcement officers in every community. A lot of these law people think a badge is a way to pull clout. I have experienced this. And Andy did, too. He stood up for himself-- Nobody will ever know what happened prior to the shooting.
by James Rolf
Tuesday Dec 10th, 2002 2:41 PM
And, up is down, black is white, right is left, and round is square....... delusional people should be seeking treatment instead of keying insane and inane things.
by Red Bluff
Tuesday Dec 10th, 2002 3:11 PM
He obviously meant a public hanging idiot. Some people just don't get the obvious.
by James Rolf
Tuesday Dec 10th, 2002 3:15 PM
Having been to the crime seen, I can tell you it was an ambush style execution. Some people actually are "crazy".
by Christine Vovakes
Wednesday Dec 11th, 2002 4:59 PM
Sacramento Bee Correspondent
Wednesday, December 11, 2002

RED BLUFF -- An Oregon deputy sheriff said Tuesday he didn't realize it, but he had the suspect in Red Bluff Police Officer David Mobilio's killing "in my grasp" just hours after the Nov. 19 shooting.

Andrew Hampton McCrae, 23, wrecked his 1992 maroon Ford Mustang in southeastern Oregon about 11 a.m. Nov. 19 -- less than 10 hours after the shooting, according to a Harney County Sheriff's Department accident report. He was arrested a week later in New Hampshire.

McCrae ran off the gravel road that runs past Whitehorse Ranch, near Burns Junction, Ore., said owner Alice Lay.

"The wreck was literally blocking the road," Lay said. "Everyone had to go around it through the brush."

McCrae was nowhere in sight when she discovered the accident and called the sheriff about 12:30 p.m., she said. When she went back to the wreckage he was there, and said he had been up on a hill trying to get his bearings.

The Sheriff's Department is in Burns, about three hours away, Lay said. While others hauled the car off the roadway and onto her ranch, she and her 25-year-old son took McCrae inside their house.

"He took a shower and cleaned up," she said. "We kind of suspected there was something different about him so were very cautious."

He refused any bandages or first-aid for a gash on his forehead. Her son approached him and asked if he had a weapon. McCrae told him no.

Lay said she and her son tried to get him to talk while they waited for the deputy to come and file an accident report.

McCrae told them his real name, she said, and that he had been in the army and was now going to college in Washington.

"He said that he had decided to take an early Thanksgiving vacation. That school and everything were really pressuring him," Lay said. "He said he just wanted to get away.

"The last thing I told him was that sometimes if you stop where you are, and listen to yourself, things aren't as bad as you think," she said.

Deputy Tim McCall said another deputy arrived to take an accident report.

McCall said the deputy then drove McCrae into Burns where, the report states, "he arranged transportation home."

McCrae was very compliant, said McCall, who spoke to the deputy Tuesday morning.

The officer expressed dismay at the missed opportunity, saying, "I had him in my grasp," McCall quoted him as saying.

"But (McCrae) did nothing to make the deputy suspect he had just committed a homicide," McCall said.

Officials have been searching for the Mustang with Washington plates since officials apprehended McCrae after a three-hour standoff in a Concord, N.H., motel on Nov. 26.

No weapon has been found in connection with Mobilio's shooting. None was found in the Mustang, according to Red Bluff Police Chief Robert Petitt.

California authorities arrived in Burns on Tuesday to search the impounded car.

"We're still looking for a .40-caliber SigSauer semiautomatic pistol believed to have been used in the homicide," he said.

Lay said McCrae had stuffed clothing, a watch and other items from his car into a backpack the day of the accident. He said that was all he needed, she said.

McCrae, born Andrew Mickel, lived in Olympia, Wash., where he had been attending college. Members of the California Department of Justice and the Tehama County Sheriff's Department left for the area this week, hoping to trace McCrae's activities in the days and weeks prior to the shooting of 31-year-old Mobilio.

The four-year veteran of the Red Bluff Police Department and D.A.R.E. officer was shot three times-twice in the side and once in the head at close range-while refueling his patrol car.

No shell casings were found at the scene of Mobilio's murder but bullets were recovered during the autopsy, Petitt said.

The California investigative team will remain in Washington "until they get everything they need," he said.

In a series of Internet postings and in a phone call to his parents in Ohio, McCrae claimed to have killed the officer to protest police-state tactics.

Petitt said authorities don't know why McCrae chose Red Bluff -- if those assertions prove to be true.

"That's the million-dollar question," he said.

Tehama County District Attorney Gregg Cohen is forwarding extradition papers to Gov. Gray Davis. Once they are signed and sent to New Hampshire, Gov. Jeanne Shaheen will have 90 days to respond. A spokesman from her office said the governor will sign the papers as soon as they arrive.

McCrae is scheduled to appear on Dec. 26 in a Merrimack County court where prosecutors will have to prove that McCrae is the person named in the California warrant for his arrest.
by Alex Breitler
(abreitler [at] redding.com) Wednesday Dec 11th, 2002 5:03 PM
Oregon sheriff's office put alleged cop killer up for night in motel

Record Searchlight

BURNS, Ore. — Hours after allegedly shooting a Red Bluff police officer, Andrew McCrae crashed his car in southeastern Oregon and then got a ride into town from an unsuspecting sheriff's deputy, police said Tuesday.

McCrae, 23, apparently spent the night of Nov. 19 — the first night after officer Dave Mobilio's killing — in a Burns motel room paid for with a Harney County, Ore., sheriff's voucher, said Red Bluff Police Chief Bob Petitt.

Those discoveries were made Tuesday as Red Bluff investigators searched Oregon law enforcement databases. During the search they learned a Burns-area deputy had checked the license plate on McCrae's maroon Ford Mustang about 18 hours after the shooting.

At the time, McCrae wasn't a suspect in Mobilio's death, and officials had not yet broadcast a description of his car, Petitt said.

The deputy — whose name Petitt did not know — checked McCrae for outstanding warrants and checked whether the car was stolen.

"Everything seemed OK at the time," Petitt said.

McCrae disappeared from Burns, only to be arrested a week later in Concord, N.H.

Tehama County investigators left Red Bluff bound for Olympia, Wash., on Tuesday hoping to learn more about McCrae, an Army veteran who attended college and lived there.

But when news broke about the discovery of McCrae's car, those investigators — already on the road — were diverted to Burns to search the impounded car, Petitt said.

An investigation already covering four states — California, Washington, Ohio and New Hampshire — now covers a fifth.

"The car certainly is a significant piece of information," Petitt said.

Police also announced Tuesday that they are looking for a .40-caliber Sig Sauer semiautomatic pistol that McCrae purchased Oct. 30, about three weeks before the shooting.

He bought the gun somewhere between Seattle and Portland, Ore., but officers aren't certain exactly where, Petitt said.

Red Bluff authorities hoped the weapon would be found in the car.

Mobilio, 31, was shot three times as he fueled his patrol car at a north Red Bluff gas station about 1:30 a.m. Nov. 19.

About 8 p.m. that day a rancher called Harney County authorities reporting an accident. McCrae had rolled his car on a rural road 180 miles from Burns.

A deputy took an accident report, ran McCrae's plates and drove him to Burns for the night, giving him a voucher for a motel room. Officials believe McCrae probably took a bus from Burns to Portland or Seattle.

Harney County Sheriff David Glerup did not return a call seeking comment Tuesday afternoon.

It was unclear what McCrae was doing in vast and remote Harney County, where 7,600 residents are spread over 10,228 square miles. The county is the ninth largest in the nation.

Red Bluff is about 300 miles southwest of Burns, which is linked to the Northern California by Highway 395.

Petitt did not have specific details of the encounter between McCrae and the deputy, who had not yet been interviewed by Red Bluff authorities.

"He followed general law enforcement procedure" in checking the plates, Petitt said.

McCrae was arrested one week after Mobilio's killing. The suspect had called his parents in Springfield, Ohio, who in turn contacted law enforcement.

The day before his arrest, McCrae had posted documents on the Internet saying he killed Mobilio to protest police tactics and corporations. He incorporated himself in two states, saying that made him immune from prosecution.

McCrae remains held in New Hampshire pending extradition to California.

Tehama County District Attorney Gregg Cohen has said he is preparing a governor's warrant that must be signed by the governors of both states before McCrae can be extradited.

Cohen did not return a call seeking an update Tuesday, but a spokesman for Gov. Gray Davis said the warrant was expected in Sacramento within several days.

With Mobilio's death now three weeks in the past, the public in Red Bluff seemed to be healing, said law enforcement chaplain Ron Fortenberry.

But law enforcement officers continue to struggle with their colleague's death, and a new round of emotions swept them as news spread that McCrae's car had been found.

"There's still a lot of tears," Fortenberry said. "There's still a lot of sadness."

Officers who had doubled up in patrol cars since the killing are now driving solo again. But officers are more wary of the inherent dangers of their jobs, Fortenberry said.

About $30,000 has poured into a fund for Mobilio's widow, Linda, and their 19-month-old son, Luke. And law enforcement agencies from around the state have sent uniform patches commemorating their presence at Mobilio's funeral two weeks ago.

"We go on grieving," Fortenberry said. "There's no time frame for healing. It could be weeks, it could be months, it could be a year."
by Erich
Friday Dec 13th, 2002 1:39 AM
I can't believe some of you people- after learning that he did in-fact kill this policeman, you still say "but he had some good ideas about the environment, and those evil corporations, and he did have a point about police brutality..."

Look at who you are agreeing with. Andy is Adolph Hitler, with a green streak. It's not new. The Unibomber said corportations are evil, and America is ruining the environment. Timothy McVeih declared war against brutal government oppression. Sadam (who killed 1.5 million women and children with nerve gas) says America is an Evil Empire, and Bush is just trying to get his hands on the world's oil. Bin Laden thinks so too. Do you agree with them? Some of you sound exactly like what I heard from the Taliban, when they were on TV.

And those of you who say 'cops are pigs' - 'he deserved it' - I bet you would say different if it was your brother, your father, or your son. It's so easy to be indifferent when it didn't happen to you. Maybe you would enjoy dancing on Officer Mobilio's grave. Tell me, do you get letters from Hell, or does the devil talk to you directly?

I'm from Red Bluff, and I've come to learn that people make excuses for those who we are most like, those we admire and look up to. I sympathise with officer Mobilio, and his family. I can't imagine what his wife must be going through, every day. I have no sympathy whatsoever for this animal McCrae. My heart pumps ice water for him, and his kind. He should hang, but since we don't do that anymore, I vote for lethal injection.

Innocent until proven guilty? He confessed. Good enough for me. You feel sorry for him? You just don't get it, and sadly, you never will. Some people are human, and some are inhuman.
by .................
Friday Dec 13th, 2002 1:43 AM
" The Unibomber said ...."


I wouldn't be so quick to bring up the unabomber if I was right wing. He sounds an AWFUL lot like you guys.

"One of the most widespread manifestations of the craziness of our world is leftism"
-The Unibomber

http://www.panix.com/~clays/Una/una1.html#section2
by Erich
Friday Dec 13th, 2002 1:57 AM
Do an 'Al Gore - The Unibomber' comparison some time:

"the automobile is by far the greatest danger to the stability of the planet- a greater danger than terrorism or the atomic bomb combined" - Al Gore, Earth in the Balance.

"He [Gore] has no sense of proportion. He honestly thinks that SUV's and the Holocaust are just as bad." -Joseph Liberman.

I'm not here to chamion conservatism over liberalism. What Andy McCrae did is EVIL and he should PAY. Anyone who doesn't get that never will....
by ............
Friday Dec 13th, 2002 2:11 AM
I think a quote from Gore would have been better than somebody else's *opinion* of what he thinks. IMHO, Gore isn't against technology, either. He probably wouldn't mind more hi-tech SUVs which ran on some new source of energy. So that analogy of yours doesn't work so good .....

"What Andy McCrae did is EVIL and he should PAY. Anyone who doesn't get that never will...."

I agree 100%
by ............
Friday Dec 13th, 2002 2:12 AM
I think a quote from Gore would have been better than somebody else's *opinion* of what he thinks. IMHO, Gore isn't against technology, either. He probably wouldn't mind more hi-tech SUVs which ran on some new source of energy. So that analogy of yours doesn't work so good .....

"What Andy McCrae did is EVIL and he should PAY. Anyone who doesn't get that never will...."

I agree 99%, and I think the people in this thread are being very dogmatic. Ideology doesn't justify killing people, and I'm not aware that the officer personally committed any injustice worthy of a death sentence.

The 1% I don't agree on is the 'evil' bit. I think Andy was a deluded individual, which is commonly mistaken as 'evil'. 'Evil' would imply Andy was under no illusions .....
by mr>MacDougal
Friday Dec 13th, 2002 7:28 AM
now that the murder weapon has been found I hope the conspiracy theories will be laid to rest.When Andy is returned,the trial will begin,,that trial being the condition of mens hearts,the men responsible for his care and those whom he offended most. Christian,are not you commanded to forgive??
by Erich
Friday Dec 13th, 2002 7:12 PM
The previous post asks Christians to forgive Andy. I'm a Christian. I forgive Andy. But forgiveness and justice are not opposite ideas. We can forgive a murderer, and still carry out justice. And that would mean the death penalty. Anything less would be unjust.

Jesus was asked what he would do if someone slapped him on the cheek. He replied, he would turn the other. Modern day philosophers extend this same thinking ad-infinum, to concepts that Jesus never intended. What would you do if someone stole your wallet? 'Hand him the keys to my car.' What would you do if a murder killed your brother? 'Offer him my sister.' If terrorist nuked New York? 'Give them Washington DC'

Jesus was asked what he would do if someone SLAPPED him, and his answer was the right one (as it always is.) Turn the other cheek.

I don't want to see McCrae tortured to death. I don't want to see him set on fire. I just want him executed. Not because I have a personal hatred of him, but because his actions warrant execution. A trial, and if guilty, a sentence proportionate to his crime. (proportionate.... hmm. what could that mean?) No one (sane) would suggest that the man who raped and killed little Samantha Runion should have to serve 10 hours of community service. No one (sane) would suggest that Winona Ryder should have both of her hands cut off. The punishment should fit the crime, and by 'fit' I mean 'be proportionate' to the offense committed.

You know, Jesus talked for a long time. And he talked about many things. And many of these things were written down. No where do I ever read of him suggesting that murderers should get anything but the death penalty. In fact, the things he says about murderers are kind of scarry, calling them children of the devil and what not. He never suggested that they were 'just misunderstood.' He suggested that they would be cast into a lake of fire where they would wail and thrash forever. His words, not mine.
by ...........
Friday Dec 13th, 2002 7:18 PM
"You know, Jesus talked for a long time. And he talked about many things. And many of these things were written down. No where do I ever read of him suggesting that murderers should get anything but the death penalty. In fact, the things he says about murderers are kind of scarry, calling them children of the devil and what not. He never suggested that they were 'just misunderstood.' He suggested that they would be cast into a lake of fire where they would wail and thrash forever. His words, not mine."

He also said it was not for men to judge other men, but for God. He said far more than 'understand your enemy' - he said to LOVE him! He didn't suggest that Christians themselves go about and throw people into lakes of fire - that's God's job, in Christian thinking. However, according to Jesus, you'll be one of them, along with anyone else who twists his words ...
by Erich
Friday Dec 13th, 2002 7:59 PM
And I suppose you're just saying that I'll burn in hell because you love me...
by ............
Friday Dec 13th, 2002 8:11 PM
I don't believe in god, hell, jesus, goblins, ghosts, fairies or any other supernatural phenomena, Erich.
Just telling ya what good ol' JC said, that's all.
by Erich
Friday Dec 13th, 2002 9:18 PM
Least you're honest. Some people say "The Bible says this, the Bible says that" and the whole time they don't believe one word of it. They're just using it as a vehicle to attack their opponents, because they know their opponents believe in the Bible. If they were in Bangladesh they would use a different text, whatever text, because the Bible don't carry a punch in Bangledesh. You think it's all a bunch of Bull----, you got a right to that opinion.

By the way, the idea that we shouldn't ever judge anyone, ever is ridiculous. Everyone makes judgements. You have to. Some evil guy rapes and kills little Samantha Runion, the Bible says that's evil. It says we're supposed to denounce it. It says we're supposed to stop evil people whenever possible. Sitting by and watching people die, or even get hurt, is just as bad as hurting them and killing them yourself.

Even Jesus's enemies accused him of judging them, because He condemned what they were teaching. What Jesus was saying is don't condemn anyone beyond forgiveness. If they repent, they can be forgiven. Don't tell a prostitute she can't go to heaven. She can, if she repents. That's what Jesus taught.

And Jesus never taught that murderers should be all set free. In fact, the Bible says to 'Obey the good ruler (the local judge) for they are put in place by God. If you do evil, be afraid, for the ruler carries a sword for a good reason. He is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon them that do evil.' (Romans 13)

Back in Roman times (when this was written)- 'the sword' - that was for cutting off heads of evil people. Murderers and rapists and the like. And the chapter is pretty clear. You and I aren't supposed to be the ones with the sword, dispensisng justice. That's the court's job.

Not that it matters much to you, any more than what Aristotle taught, or what Nitche taught. It's all opinion, all of it, unless you believe in God.
by .............
Friday Dec 13th, 2002 9:31 PM
"By the way, the idea that we shouldn't ever judge anyone, ever is ridiculous. Everyone makes judgements. You have to. Some evil guy rapes and kills little Samantha Runion, the Bible says that's evil. It says we're supposed to denounce it. It says we're supposed to stop evil people whenever possible. Sitting by and watching people die, or even get hurt, is just as bad as hurting them and killing them yourself."

You won't find a single Bible quote that says that. Jesus' message was basically lay down and take it. Romans 13 is a perfect example.

"Submission to the Authorities

1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted"

Let's say you were living in Nazi Germany, and apply that quote. The Nazis were the authority, and, according to the passage, "there is no authority except that which God established." I.e. lie down and take it. The sword cut off all kinds of heads, good and evil alike.

Romans 13 doesn't give Christians the right to do any of the things it mentions; its talking about Christians suffering those things if they don't submit to authorities.

These are among the reasons I'm not Christian.

Opinions matter, but they're not always right. Nietzsche said a fine thing about Christians for example: the last one died on the Cross.
by Erich
Friday Dec 13th, 2002 11:11 PM
>Romans 13 doesn't give Christians the right to do any of the things it mentions; its talking about Christians suffering those things if they don't submit to authorities.

It's true, Christians are told to submit to the governmnets and laws of men, as long as they don't contradict the laws of God. If a government passed a law saying 'you can't pray' (the book of Daniel) or 'you have to tell us if you know any Jews' (Nazi Germany) a true Christian would violate those laws, to keep God's commandments. There are clearly (at times) good and evil people in opposition. Christians are told to hold to what is good and resist what is evil.

As for the form that that resistance takes, it differs from time to time. This is explained as well.

To everything there is a season, a time to every purpose under heaven. A time to be born, a time to die, a time to sow and a time to reap.

A time to kill and a time to heal, a time to break down, and a time to build up. A time to weap and a time to laugh, a time to mourn and a time to dance.

A time to cast away stones and a time to to gather stones together ..... skipping forward - embrace/refrain, get/loose, keep/cast away, rend/sew, speak/be silent.....

A time for love and a time for hate, a time for war and a time for peace.

The point is, just because Jesus gave up his life on the cross, doesn't mean we're all supposed to turn ourselves over to those who would want to kill us. If all Christians did that, there would be no Christians left. Therefore, I conclude that Christians don't do that, and never have, or there would be none left (Nitzche). Since there are some left, then they must not do that.

There was a time to for Jesus to go willingly, like a lamb to slaughter. And there is a time to fight back. Jesus asked his followers to bring their swords to the garden where he prayed. Peter actually cut the ear off of a soldier when they came to get Jesus. Jesus healed the soldier, and then told Peter "now is not the time." Not "what are you doing with that sword." Jesus him to bring the sword.

The reference to gathering stones is interesting. Gathering stones is what Hebrew juries did after a judge pronounced a person guilty of a capital crime. Then they stoned the guilty person to death. Sometimes they would gather the stones in advance, expecting a guilty verdict and then the defendant was pronounced innocent (can we say O.J. Simpson) or sentenced to a lesser punishment.

So gathering stones is a reference to a state-sponsored execution (in ancient Israel), and casting away stones is a reference to a lesser punishment, or even 'not guilty'. Either way, the Bible says there is a proper time for each.

In my opinion, McCrae (remember him? This post is supposed to be about him.) is clearly an example of a time to go to trial, present the evidence, and IF he is guilty, he should die. The Bible supports the idea of state controlled execution of murderers, so it's morally justified. The state of California supports the idea of execution of murderers, so it's legally justified. If he confesses, and it is upheld in a court, what more do you need?

I don't think that being a Christian means automatically jettisoning common sense. I mean, you could read the passage where Jesus says that God will provide for you, food, clothing and shelter, and you could say 'okay God, bring it on.' So you would never plant or build or stitch anything, and if the whole country did it, they'd all starve. Maybe, just mabey, Jesus said God will provide you food, clothing and shelter, but you gotta work for it too. Maybe good things, good health is a <combination> of God's gift and diligence on your part; the same diligence that the Bible commands people to be (be a good steward of your body, your house, your work and your soul.) Consequently, the things you have are gifts, but they didn't just fall out of the sky. Maybe have to be rational and work at it too. But just because you worked at it, doesn't mean it still isn't a gift from God.

But we disagree. And I'm not going to convince you, and you're not going to convince me. But then again, I ain't here to convince you. You say the death penalty is unbiblical, that Jesus commands everyone to forgive and forget, and (I guess) let murderers go free. I attempted to put together verses that demonstrate that executions occured all throughout the Bible, and no where does Jesus, or Moses, or anyone else say 'there should never be any executions.' If they felt that way, they could have just said 'No government has the right to execute evil doers.' The Bible is a thick book. If anti-death penalty is such a central theme, you think I'd be able to find the passage where it says 'Thou shall not put murderers to death.' In fact, the Bible says there is a time for executions. Leviticus actually spelled out what offenses were punishable by death for ancient Israel. For if God is against the death penalty, why did he explain the death penalty?

I seem to have forgotten my first premise, that I stated when I began this lecture sereis. McCrae is an animal, he is EVIL (say it with me now E-V-I-L, adjective, the opposite of GOOD) and he deserves to PAY. If you don't understand it, you never will.

The debate is now over.
by ..............
Friday Dec 13th, 2002 11:19 PM
"It's true, Christians are told to submit to the governmnets and laws of men, as long as they don't contradict the laws of God."

WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!

NO such qualification is EVER made, ANYWHERE in that book. That's just the opinion of most Christians, but there is no Biblical support for it.


"To everything there is a season, a time to every purpose under heaven. A time to be born, a time to die, a time to sow and a time to reap.
A time to kill and a time to heal, a time to break down, and a time to build up. A time to weap and a time to laugh, a time to mourn and a time to dance.
A time to cast away stones and a time to to gather stones together ..... skipping forward - embrace/refrain, get/loose, keep/cast away, rend/sew, speak/be silent.....
A time for love and a time for hate, a time for war and a time for peace."

THATS NOT THE BIBLE, for God's sake, what do you think we are, illiterate? That's the opening of Charles Dickens A Tale of Two Cities. WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TRYING TO PULL HERE!!!!
by .............
Friday Dec 13th, 2002 11:23 PM
"It's true, Christians are told to submit to the governmnets and laws of men, as long as they don't contradict the laws of God."

WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!

NO such qualification is EVER made, ANYWHERE in that book. That's just the opinion of most Christians, but there is no Biblical support for it.

"To everything there is a season, a time to every purpose under heaven. A time to be born, a time to die, a time to sow and a time to reap.
A time to kill and a time to heal, a time to break down, and a time to build up. A time to weap and a time to laugh, a time to mourn and a time to dance.
A time to cast away stones and a time to to gather stones together ..... skipping forward - embrace/refrain, get/loose, keep/cast away, rend/sew, speak/be silent.....
A time for love and a time for hate, a time for war and a time for peace."

THATS NOT THE BIBLE, for God's sake, what do you think we are, illiterate? That's the opening of Charles Dickens A Tale of Two Cities. WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TRYING TO PULL HERE!!!!

No wonder you say "the debate is over", you're hightailing it out of here before you get caught for that little stunt of misinformation and bullshit!!!!!

Typical, what else do you expect from a conservative than to lie and run like the wind?

If you dispute me - provide the verse and chapter for that little sermon!

-Sincerely,
Fellow Who Is Not Holding His Breath
by Erich
Saturday Dec 14th, 2002 12:06 AM
ECCLESIASTES, CHAPTER 3, VERSE 1
Author: SOLOMON
Translation: The Words of the Preacher

Ec. 3:1 - To everything there is a season; and a time to every purpose under heaven:
3:2 - A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to sow, and a time to reap.
3:3 - A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down and a time to build up.

And so on, and so forth. Is it in charles dickens? I don't know. I don't own any dickens. It's in a beatles song,,, but I'm pretty sure Solomon had it first.

You might want to get yourself a full Bible, one with a New and Old Testament. Of course I don't think that it really matters, because as soon as you find the verse I'm sure you'll have an explination for why it doesn't mean what it says. There is a time for war. There is a time for peace. There is a time for love, and a time for hate. There is a time to forgive, and cast away stones. And there is a time to try, and convict, and execute. It won't be with stones, but McCrae will be dead none the less --- of course, provided he's given a trial and found guilty and all that (I can hear it coming already "you don't want to even give him a trial.....")

I'm leaving (I promise this time) because I grow bored of explaining which way is up, and which way is down, which one is the moon, and which one is the sun.

Some people, believe it or not, think this stuff is obvious.
by .............
Saturday Dec 14th, 2002 12:13 AM
I take that back. Actually there seems to be ample evidence of God wanting to kill all the nonbelievers and such, hell, it seems the demented little supernatural being wants to light the whole world on fire.

".. unto everyone which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even from he hath shall be taken away from him. But those mine enemies who would not that I should reign over them, bring hither , and slay them before me"
--Prince of Peace, the alleged Jesus, Luke 19:26-7

Jesus believes people are crippled by God a punishment for sin. He tells a crippled man, after healing him, to "sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee." John 5:14

Those who do not believe in Jesus will be cast into a fire to be burned. John 15:6

The author of Acts talks about the "sure mercies of David." (Acts 13:34) But David was anything but merciful. For an example of his behavior see 2 Sam.12:31 and 1 Chr.20:3, where he saws, hacks, and burns to death the inhabitants of several cities.

Peter and God scare Ananias and his wife to death for not forking over all of the money that they made when selling their land.(Acts 5:1-10)

Peter wrongly claims that Dt.18:18-19 refers to Jesus, saying that those who refuse to follow him (all nonchristians) must be killed. Acts 3:23

Homosexuals (those "without natural affection") and their supporters (those "that have pleasure in them") are "worthy of death" and should be killed. Romans 1:31-32
The guilty are "justified" and "saved from wrath" by the blood of an innocent victim. Romans 5:9

Ephesians

We are predestined by God to go to either heaven or hell. None of our thoughts, words, or actions can affect the final outcome. 1:4-5, 11
God had his son murdered to keep himself from hurting others for things they didn't do. 1:7

Colossians

God bought us with someone else's blood. 1:14
God makes peace through blood. 1:19-20

2 Thessalonians

Jesus will take "vengeance on them that know not God" by burning them forever "in flaming fire." 1:7-9
Jesus will "consume" the wicked "with the spirit of his mouth." 2:8
God will cause us to believe lies so that he can **** our souls to hell. 2:11-12

Hebrews

God will not forgive us unless we shed the blood of some innocent creature. 9:13-14, 22
Those who disobeyed the Old Testament law were killed. It will be much worse for those who displease Jesus. 10:28-29
God ordered animals to be "stoned, or thrust through with a dart" if they "so much as ... touch the mountain." 12:20

1 Peter

We are all, according to Peter, predestined to be saved or damned. We have no say in the matter. It was all determined by "the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ."1:2
God drowned drowned everyone on earth except for Noah and his family. 3:20
God wants some people to suffer. 4:19

2 Peter

God drowned everyone else on earth except for Noah and his family. 2:5, 3:6
God will set the entire earth on fire so that he can burn non-believers to death. 3:7
When Jesus returns, he'll burn up the whole earth and everything on it. 3:10

Jude

God makes people evil and then condemns them to hell. 1:4
Jude reminds us that God destroys those who don't believe in him. 1:5

Revelation

Jesus "washed us ... with his own blood." 1:5
This verse claims that "every eye shall see him," including those who executed him. But millions have lived and died without ever seeing him coming "with clouds." 1:7
Jesus has "the keys of hell and death." 1:18
Repent -- or else Jesus will fight you with the sword that sticks out of his mouth. (Like the limbless knight in Monty Python's "Holy Grail.") 2:16
Jesus says he will kill the children of Jezebel. (I suppose that includes all nonchristian children.) 2:23
God gave power to someone sitting on a red horse "to take from the earth ... that they should kill one another." 6:4
God gives Death and Hell the task of indiscriminately killing one quarter of the earth's human population with the sword, starvation, and "with the beasts of the earth." 6:8
God's favorites just can't wait until everyone else is slaughtered. 6:10-11
God sends his angels to destroy a third part of all the trees, grass, sea creature, mountains, sun, moon, starts, and water. Hey, that sounds like a good plan. 8:7-13
The angels are instructed not to "hurt the grass [how could they? He already had all the grass killed in 8:7] ... but only those men which have not the seal of God on their foreheads." God tells his angels not to kill them, but rather torment them with scorpions for five months. Those tormented will want to die, but God won't let them. You see, he is pro-life. 9:4-6
God makes some horse-like locusts with human heads, women's hair, lion's teeth, and scorpion's tails. They sting people and hurt them for five months. 9:7-10
Four angels, with an army of 200 million, killed a third of the earth's population. 9:15-19
Anyone that messes with God's two olive trees and two candlesticks will be burned to death by fire that comes out of the sticks and trees' mouths. 11:4-5
God's magic candlesticks and olive trees have special powers. They can shut up heaven so that it cannot rain (There are these little windows that open up whenever it rains.), turn rivers of water into blood (like the Egyptian magicians [Ex.7:22]), and to smite the earth with various plagues "as often as they will." 11:6
After the candlesticks and olive trees are done talking, burning people to death with the fire that comes out of their mouths, shutting up heaven to prevent it from raining, turning rivers into blood, and killing people with plagues whenever they get the urge, they are killed in a war started by a beast that came up out of a bottomless pit. 11:7
After the war between the candlesticks and olive trees on the one hand and the beast that crawled out of the pit on the other, there will be dead bodies rotting, unburied everywhere. And those that are not killed by the candlesticks, trees, or beast will "rejoice over them [the dead bodies] and make merry, and shall send gifts to one another." A good time will be had by all. 11:8- 10
God will send an earthquake that will kill 7000 people. 11:13
Those who receive the mark of the beast will "drink of the wine of the wrath of God ... and shall be tormented with fire and brimstone ... and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever." 14:10-11
"The great winepress of the wrath of God ... was trodden ... and the blood cam out of the winepress, even unto the horses bridles." 14:19
Seven angels with seven plagues are filled with the wrath of God. 15:1
The seven vials of wrath: 1) sores, 2) sea turned to blood, 3) rivers turned to blood, 4) people scorched with fire, 5) people gnaw their tongues in pain, 6) Euphrates dries up, 7) thunder, lightening, earthquake, and hail. 16:1-21
God gave the saints and prophets blood to drink. 16:6
To punish her God will send plagues and famine, and "she will be utterly burned with fire." 18:8
Kings have committed fornication and "lived deliciously with her." Then they see "the smoke of her burning." 18:9
Jesus makes war. 19:11
Jesus, whose clothes are dipped in blood, has a sharp sword sticking out of his mouth. Thus attired, he treads the winepress of the wrath of God. 19:13-15
An angel calls all the fowls to feast upon dead human bodies, or as the angel calls it "the supper of the great God." 19:17-18
The beast and the false prophet are cast alive into a lake of fire. The rest were killed with the sword of Jesus. "And all the fowls were filled with their flesh." 19:20-21
God will send fire from heaven to devour people. And the devil will be tormented "day and night for ever and ever." 20:9-10
Whoever isn't found listed in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. 20:15
All liars, as well as those who are fearful or unbelieving will be cast into "the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone." 21:8



And hey, let's not even get into the Old Testament because I really don't have 30 hours to sit here and list it all .....
by Erich
Saturday Dec 14th, 2002 12:18 AM
Ecclesiastes, chapter 3, verse 1
Author: Solomon

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven:
A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to sow, and a time to reap;
A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;

It might help to get a Bible with both the Old and New Testament. Then again, maybe not. I'm sure as soon as you find the verse, you'll already have thought of a way to show that it doesn't say what it says.

There is a time to kill, to punish evil doers by capital punishment. There is a time to oppose the government, when the law is evil, just like Daniel did when the Persian preists sought to keep him from praying to God. He kept praying, even though it was illegal. They put him in a lion's den. You want the chapter and verse for that?

I leave now because I grow tired of explaining which way is up. You don't really want to debate anyway. I understand your position. You don't believe that any part of the Bible is genuine. It's no different from Hubbard's Dianetics. Ok. Fine. I'm not going to argue with you, because you don't believe in the same fundamental principles I do. Without God, the Bible becomes sort of a fool's book, don't it. I can't show you God, and even if I could, you wouldn't believe it was Him. So you win, the Bible is stupid. debates over.

Tell you what. We'll pick this little conversation up again in 60 or 70 years.
by .....................
Saturday Dec 14th, 2002 12:45 AM
I take that back. Actually there seems to be ample evidence of God wanting to kill all the nonbelievers and such, hell, it seems the demented little supernatural being wants to light the whole world on fire.

".. unto everyone which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even from he hath shall be taken away from him. But those mine enemies who would not that I should reign over them, bring hither , and slay them before me"
--Prince of Peace, the alleged Jesus, Luke 19:26-7

Jesus believes people are crippled by God a punishment for sin. He tells a crippled man, after healing him, to "sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee." John 5:14

Those who do not believe in Jesus will be cast into a fire to be burned. John 15:6

The author of Acts talks about the "sure mercies of David." (Acts 13:34) But David was anything but merciful. For an example of his behavior see 2 Sam.12:31 and 1 Chr.20:3, where he saws, hacks, and burns to death the inhabitants of several cities.

Peter and God scare Ananias and his wife to death for not forking over all of the money that they made when selling their land.(Acts 5:1-10)

Peter wrongly claims that Dt.18:18-19 refers to Jesus, saying that those who refuse to follow him (all nonchristians) must be killed. Acts 3:23

Homosexuals (those "without natural affection") and their supporters (those "that have pleasure in them") are "worthy of death" and should be killed. Romans 1:31-32
The guilty are "justified" and "saved from wrath" by the blood of an innocent victim. Romans 5:9

Ephesians

We are predestined by God to go to either heaven or hell. None of our thoughts, words, or actions can affect the final outcome. 1:4-5, 11
God had his son murdered to keep himself from hurting others for things they didn't do. 1:7

Colossians

God bought us with someone else's blood. 1:14
God makes peace through blood. 1:19-20

2 Thessalonians

Jesus will take "vengeance on them that know not God" by burning them forever "in flaming fire." 1:7-9
Jesus will "consume" the wicked "with the spirit of his mouth." 2:8
God will cause us to believe lies so that he can **** our souls to hell. 2:11-12

Hebrews

God will not forgive us unless we shed the blood of some innocent creature. 9:13-14, 22
Those who disobeyed the Old Testament law were killed. It will be much worse for those who displease Jesus. 10:28-29
God ordered animals to be "stoned, or thrust through with a dart" if they "so much as ... touch the mountain." 12:20

1 Peter

We are all, according to Peter, predestined to be saved or damned. We have no say in the matter. It was all determined by "the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ."1:2
God drowned drowned everyone on earth except for Noah and his family. 3:20
God wants some people to suffer. 4:19

2 Peter

God drowned everyone else on earth except for Noah and his family. 2:5, 3:6
God will set the entire earth on fire so that he can burn non-believers to death. 3:7
When Jesus returns, he'll burn up the whole earth and everything on it. 3:10

Jude

God makes people evil and then condemns them to hell. 1:4
Jude reminds us that God destroys those who don't believe in him. 1:5

Revelation

Jesus "washed us ... with his own blood." 1:5
This verse claims that "every eye shall see him," including those who executed him. But millions have lived and died without ever seeing him coming "with clouds." 1:7
Jesus has "the keys of hell and death." 1:18
Repent -- or else Jesus will fight you with the sword that sticks out of his mouth. (Like the limbless knight in Monty Python's "Holy Grail.") 2:16
Jesus says he will kill the children of Jezebel. (I suppose that includes all nonchristian children.) 2:23
God gave power to someone sitting on a red horse "to take from the earth ... that they should kill one another." 6:4
God gives Death and Hell the task of indiscriminately killing one quarter of the earth's human population with the sword, starvation, and "with the beasts of the earth." 6:8
God's favorites just can't wait until everyone else is slaughtered. 6:10-11
God sends his angels to destroy a third part of all the trees, grass, sea creature, mountains, sun, moon, starts, and water. Hey, that sounds like a good plan. 8:7-13
The angels are instructed not to "hurt the grass [how could they? He already had all the grass killed in 8:7] ... but only those men which have not the seal of God on their foreheads." God tells his angels not to kill them, but rather torment them with scorpions for five months. Those tormented will want to die, but God won't let them. You see, he is pro-life. 9:4-6
God makes some horse-like locusts with human heads, women's hair, lion's teeth, and scorpion's tails. They sting people and hurt them for five months. 9:7- 10
Four angels, with an army of 200 million, killed a third of the earth's population. 9:15-19
Anyone that messes with God's two olive trees and two candlesticks will be burned to death by fire that comes out of the sticks and trees' mouths. 11:4-5
God's magic candlesticks and olive trees have special powers. They can shut up heaven so that it cannot rain (There are these little windows that open up whenever it rains.), turn rivers of water into blood (like the Egyptian magicians [Ex.7:22]), and to smite the earth with various plagues "as often as they will." 11:6
After the candlesticks and olive trees are done talking, burning people to death with the fire that comes out of their mouths, shutting up heaven to prevent it from raining, turning rivers into blood, and killing people with plagues whenever they get the urge, they are killed in a war started by a beast that came up out of a bottomless pit. 11:7
After the war between the candlesticks and olive trees on the one hand and the beast that crawled out of the pit on the other, there will be dead bodies rotting, unburied everywhere. And those that are not killed by the candlesticks, trees, or beast will "rejoice over them [the dead bodies] and make merry, and shall send gifts to one another." A good time will be had by all. 11:8- 10
God will send an earthquake that will kill 7000 people. 11:13
Those who receive the mark of the beast will "drink of the wine of the wrath of God ... and shall be tormented with fire and brimstone ... and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever." 14:10-11
"The great winepress of the wrath of God ... was trodden ... and the blood cam out of the winepress, even unto the horses bridles." 14:19
Seven angels with seven plagues are filled with the wrath of God. 15:1
The seven vials of wrath: 1) sores, 2) sea turned to blood, 3) rivers turned to blood, 4) people scorched with fire, 5) people gnaw their tongues in pain, 6) Euphrates dries up, 7) thunder, lightening, earthquake, and hail. 16:1-21
God gave the saints and prophets blood to drink. 16:6
To punish her God will send plagues and famine, and "she will be utterly burned with fire." 18:8
Kings have committed fornication and "lived deliciously with her." Then they see "the smoke of her burning." 18:9
Jesus makes war. 19:11
Jesus, whose clothes are dipped in blood, has a sharp sword sticking out of his mouth. Thus attired, he treads the winepress of the wrath of God. 19:13-15
An angel calls all the fowls to feast upon dead human bodies, or as the angel calls it "the supper of the great God." 19:17-18
The beast and the false prophet are cast alive into a lake of fire. The rest were killed with the sword of Jesus. "And all the fowls were filled with their flesh." 19:20-21
God will send fire from heaven to devour people. And the devil will be tormented "day and night for ever and ever." 20:9-10
Whoever isn't found listed in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. 20:15
All liars, as well as those who are fearful or unbelieving will be cast into "the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone." 21:8

And hey, let's not even get into the Old Testament because I really don't have 30 hours to sit here and list it all .....
by All fat is the LORD's
Saturday Dec 14th, 2002 1:07 AM
1: "If a man's offering is a sacrifice of peace offering, if he offers an animal from the herd, male or female, he shall offer it without blemish before the LORD.
2: And he shall lay his hand upon the head of his offering and kill it at the door of the tent of meeting; and Aaron's sons the priests shall throw the blood against the altar round about.
3: And from the sacrifice of the peace offering, as an offering by fire to the LORD, he shall offer the fat covering the entrails and all the fat that is on the entrails,
4: and the two kidneys with the fat that is on them at the loins, and the appendage of the liver which he shall take away with the kidneys.
5: Then Aaron's sons shall burn it on the altar upon the burnt offering, which is upon the wood on the fire; it is an offering by fire, a pleasing odor to the LORD.
6: "If his offering for a sacrifice of peace offering to the LORD is an animal from the flock, male or female, he shall offer it without blemish.
7: If he offers a lamb for his offering, then he shall offer it before the LORD,
8: laying his hand upon the head of his offering and killing it before the tent of meeting; and Aaron's sons shall throw its blood against the altar round about.
9: Then from the sacrifice of the peace offering as an offering by fire to the LORD he shall offer its fat, the fat tail entire, taking it away close by the backbone, and the fat that covers the entrails, and all the fat that is on the entrails,
10: and the two kidneys with the fat that is on them at the loins, and the appendage of the liver which he shall take away with the kidneys.
11: And the priest shall burn it on the altar as food offered by fire to the LORD.
12: "If his offering is a goat, then he shall offer it before the LORD,
13: and lay his hand upon its head, and kill it before the tent of meeting; and the sons of Aaron shall throw its blood against the altar round about.
14: Then he shall offer from it, as his offering for an offering by fire to the LORD, the fat covering the entrails, and all the fat that is on the entrails,
15: and the two kidneys with the fat that is on them at the loins, and the appendage of the liver which he shall take away with the kidneys.
16: And the priest shall burn them on the altar as food offered by fire for a pleasing odor. All fat is the LORD's.
17: It shall be a perpetual statute throughout your generations, in all your dwelling places, that you eat neither fat nor blood."

http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=RsvLevi.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=3&division=div1

by just wondering
Saturday Dec 14th, 2002 10:33 AM
Not even communists?
by onlygoodseptictankisadeadone
Sunday Dec 15th, 2002 12:44 PM
I find it amusing that most of you want this guy to burn/hang/be injected with whatever posion your states administer for taking someones life 'in cold blood' as you like to point out.

Eye for an eye and the world goes blind. Fight fire with fire and you end up with ashes.......blah blah more cliches.

WTF about the countless millions that your government has murdered all in the name of defending your 'freedoms' and 'liberties' and 'the american way of life'?

I, in no way condone the taking of any life but I see the contradiction and hypocracy that the words and actions of this young man has pointed out.

BUT ....John Lydon said, "Anyone who considers their cause to be worth more than the value of human life, is following a lost cause"

And SO MANY OF YOU are following a lost cause.
by ...........
Sunday Dec 15th, 2002 12:54 PM
Granted, Mr. "septictankblahblahblah" most of what you have said is true, and compared to the deaths of so many lately, the issue of just this one guy is pretty minor.
However: he was killed, too, over a cause considered to be more worthwhile than a human life. The foreign policy of the USA wasn't this one guy's fault, and this fellow who killed him was just as much of an ideological killer as the very people he seeks to criticize, eg, he is a hypocrite.....
by Alex Breitler
(abreitler [at] redding.com) Sunday Dec 15th, 2002 10:04 PM
Police: It may be same gun used to kill Red Bluff officer

BURNS, Ore. — Agents found a gun that may have been used to murder Red Bluff police officer Dave Mobilio, police said Thursday. The handgun is similar to the one suspect Andrew McCrae purchased three weeks before the killing, said Red Bluff Police Chief Bob Petitt.

The chief would not say whether the weapon was in McCrae's totaled Ford Mustang, which was searched by Department of Justice agents Wednesday. Technicians at a state crime lab in California will examine the gun to see if it might have fired the bullets that were recovered during Mobilio's autopsy.

McCrae bought a Sig-Sauer .40-caliber handgun on Oct. 30 somewhere between Seattle and Portland, Ore., Petitt said. It's unknown exactly where the gun was bought. The gun found in Burns is also a Sig-Sauer, the chief said.

As investigators inspected the gun Thursday, prosecutors were setting in motion a series of procedures necessary to bring McCrae — who remains held in Concord, N.H., where he was arrested last month — to Tehama County to face charges. Tehama County District Attorney Gregg Cohen on Thursday afternoon mailed a governor's warrant to Gov. Gray Davis in Sacramento.

That warrant — a relatively small document consisting of just a few papers — was sent via overnight mail, Cohen said. It needs to be signed by both Davis and New Hampshire Gov. Jeanne Shaheen before McCrae can be extradited. Even then, McCrae could challenge the warrant's validity by claiming he is not the person named in the document, Cohen said.

"But I don't anticipate that will be an issue," he said. McCrae is scheduled to appear Dec. 26 in Concord District Court to review the extradition process.

Mobilio, 31, a D.A.R.E. officer, was shot three times while refueling his patrol car about 1:30 a.m. Nov. 19. Later that morning, about 11 a.m., McCrae rolled his car near the Oregon-Nevada state line, 20 miles from any paved road.

Ranchers who came to his rescue said that McCrae had said he was a stressed-out student and took off early for Thanksgiving break to "get away from it all." A Harney County, Ore., sheriff's deputy gave McCrae a ride into Burns, about 130 miles north. McCrae stayed in a motel there and took a bus back to the Portland or Seattle area. He later flew from Seattle to New Hampshire. He called his parents from New Hampshire, who alerted authorities.

In Internet postings before his arrest, McCrae said he killed a Red Bluff officer to protest police tactics. He said he incorporated himself in two states to make him immune from prosecution. When state investigators finish in Burns, they plan to continue north to McCrae's hometown of Olympia, Wash., to try and learn more about McCrae, an Army veteran who was a student at Evergreen State College, Petitt said.

Friday, December 13, 2002
by WHO CARES
Monday Dec 16th, 2002 8:16 AM
ANDREW MIKEL'SHOMETOWN IS SPRINGFIELD, OHIO. NOT OLYMPIA, WASHINGTON.
by Caroline yet again
Monday Dec 16th, 2002 6:45 PM
Ack, ack... Shhhhhhhhhhit.......
You know: you're just as bad as him if you think you have the authority to kill someone. *sigh* duh!
@$%&*#g basturds
by Caroline yet again
Monday Dec 16th, 2002 7:35 PM
Ok, ok...Let's get this straight:
If Andy is not sentenced to execution...do you still forgive him, Erich?
Or is it that you believe as long as Andy serves justice, you can forgive him?
Now I don't know about you, but to me it seems that Christians are supposed to believe in forgiving people regardless of whether they recieve any punishment for their sins or not....because your God will end up judging them.
You sound like you're saying: Oh yes, I'll forgive you...after you are executed. Then what, Erich, is the point of forgiveness, if you can only "forgive" on such conditions? Will it make any difference, will anyone care, if you forgive this man (after he's dead), if you were on the jury?
I do not see how you can forgive someone and then sentence them to death.
by o
Monday Dec 16th, 2002 8:21 PM
people....
in this place...
are wasting...
here's a link out...
http://www.jesusfolk.com
Or...
http://www.neimanmarcus.com
Or...
http://www.movies.com
Or...
http://www.anywhere but here.com
by o
Monday Dec 16th, 2002 8:21 PM
people....
in this place...
are wasting...
here's a link out...
http://www.jesusfolk.com
Or...
http://www.neimanmarcus.com
Or...
http://www.movies.com
Or...
http://www.anywhere but here.com
by Caroline
Monday Dec 16th, 2002 8:54 PM
Right, okay. Right. Let's clear this up about Gore: Did he doooooooooo anything for the environment when he was in office??????? Noooooooooooo--ooooo! He said all that green stuff because it's what people wanted to hear and it may have helped get him elected. I know it's arguable, but he did not push hard for strong legislation of his green view point. Obviously no one in the high offices actually believes in getting in the way of prospering businesses.

Erich said:
"I've come to learn that people make excuses for those who we are most like, those we admire and look up to." So Erich believes he is more like officer Mobilio, which gives an excuse to kill Andy, because Andy killed.

"I have no sympathy whatsoever for this animal McCrae. My heart pumps ice water for him, and his kind. He should hang, but since we don't do that anymore, I vote for lethal injection."
1, Andy has a family too. He's a human being, just as you are, although you are only able to comprehend killing in the context of punishment within a judical system.
I have the mind to try very very hard to understand both, because trulying understanding how this killing came about is the only way to prevent future pointless hurtful acts of rage from happening. Andy argued that he did it "in order to bring attention to .. police state tactics" and such. If Andy didn't feel so impersonal to this police officer, he wouldn't have killed him. I will say to you that if we were more sensitive to what we do to each other we would all get along better. And this can be applied within the context of a family, a community, a country, and the whole dam world. For every person executed, another will follow in their footsteps. Whether each has the desire to be caught and interrogated and finally put out of their misery, I don't know.

"You feel sorry for him? You just don't get it, and sadly, you never will. Some people are human, and some are inhuman."
I feel bad for him, but not sorry. (There's a big difference.) No one is inhuman, there is always another side of them that you are not seeing if you can only see them as inhuman. You are fairly "inhuman" yourself if you believe in killing. You are unwilling to look at the whole picture, just as Andy was unwilling to see the damage he would do by killing. Andy saw saw the officer as an object representational of something he felt was wrong. Erich sees Andy as an object representative of "evil". Both are wrong.
by JMS
Friday Dec 20th, 2002 3:54 AM
Sure, Andy did kill an innocent man. It is horrible that it happened, but what does wishing a man to rot in hell or die a slow miserable death make of you? People today are so willing to hand out death that they are blinded by their own hypocrisy. Christians are wanting Andy to rot in hell. Shouldn't they prey I mean pray for his soul and wish for his forgiveness? I guess not in this case. What about the fact that most of these posts are threats on Andy's life? They say that they wish they could see him so they could kill him or "Red bluff people carry guns so I can't wait to see you back in our streets". Wouldn't killing him be the same thing as killing a police officer? Murder is murder no matter how you look at it. Again, I guess not in this case. All of you make me sick. Vengeful hateful souls that will burn in the same hell that you are casting Andy into. If any of you stayed true to your convictions, then you would see how ignorant that you sound. You people have giving me more of a reason to let go of my faith in religion, my faith in our government, and my faith in human beings because with a world full of hatemongers like yourself, the problems you want to stop will never be solved.
by ******
Friday Dec 20th, 2002 12:39 PM
JUST CURIOUS, HAVE THERE BEEN ANY NEW DEVELOPMENTS IN THE INVESTIGATION OF THE SHOOTING? HAS ANDY BEEN RETURNED TO RED BLUFF? DID THE REDNECKS KILL HIM?
by jenny
Friday Dec 20th, 2002 5:38 PM
Cops have placed McCrae about 120 miles northeast of the crime scene 10-hours after the shooting went down, but haven’t yet placed him at the actual crime scene WHEN the shooting went down based on their investigation INDEPENDENT of the so-called confession. As you know, McCrae crashed and abandoned his car (Mustang) in Oregon. At or near the crash site a gun was found. The gun was a 40-caliber (Sig Sauer) pistol and it’s believed that a similar weapon type was used to kill RB cop. On or about Oct. 30th, McCrae purchased a 40-caliber (Sig Sauer) pistol. So far, no information has been publicized showing that the bullet or fragments recovered from the dead cop’s body was fired from the gun recovered in Oregon. Also, no information has been publicized showing that the gun found in Oregon was the same gun McCrae bought on Oct. 30th. According to the cops no bullet casings were ever found at the murder scene. The Sig Sauer P229 40-caliber pistol is a semi-automatic weapon where, unlike a revolver where the expended casing remains in the cylinder, the expended bullet casing of a semi-auto is ejected from the gun every time a bullet leaves its barrel. In the case of a Sig Sauer, the ejection port is located on the right side of the gun. When the cartridge is ejected it leaves the gun in a pronounced upward flip and to the right. The empty cartridge tumbles away from the shooter at a considerable distance then hits the ground. Also, a 40-caliber pistol is considered a large caliber weapon and the ejected cartridge travels at a farther distance away from the gun than a smaller caliber casing. According to authorities, RB cop was shot at three times. If a 40-caliber pistol was used in this crime, then where are the empty cartridges? Now, if I’d just murdered a cop the last thing I’d be concerned about is picking up my "brass." Another thing, have the cops eliminated other suspects? Recently, a wanted felon-parolee on the run out of Redding, CA (sister-city to Red Bluff) shot and wounded an unsuspecting “park ranger” who stumbled upon his campsite/hideout in the Santa Cruz Mountains, which is about a 5-hour drive south. The shooting of the park ranger occurred several weeks FOLLOWING the Red Bluff incident. The fugitive’s name is David Melberg alias David Yokum. Weeks and days BEFORE Mobilio was gunned down a rash of robberies, burglaries and car thefts occurred in the Redding area where Melberg currently remains a prime suspect. To date, the bullet dug out of the park ranger’s leg a couple of weeks ago has not yet been compared to the bullet(s) recovered from the dead cop’s body nor has any stolen firearm found in Melberg’s possession been test fired for a match comparison or elimination in the RB case. Stolen in the string of Redding burglaries was a small arsenal of firearms. Melberg drove to Santa Cruz in a stolen truck, a vehicle taken from Redding. In addition to vehicles and guns disappearing in Redding prior to the date RB cop was killed a rash of wallets, purses and credit cards were stolen as well. Is it possible that Melberg killed Mobilio? Is it possible that Melberg was the one who was located at the gas pumps of the RB gas station driving one of the many vehicles previously reported stolen out of Redding, armed with a stolen handgun, and trying to discretely complete an electronic transaction using one of his stolen credit cards? Is it possible Mobilio was in the wrong place at the wrong time when he crossed paths with Melberg, a desperate parolee wanted out of Redding for a string of violent felonies who needed to waste the unsuspecting cop to avoid going back to prison? Melberg is a more likely suspect in the RB cop murder case than the likes of a McCrae who may be capitalizing on an event he had no part in. Until cops can positively say that the gun found in Oregon belonged to McCrae and the bullet found in Mobilio’s body came from that gun, there shouldn't be a rush to judgment.

by Short Bsu Driver
Saturday Dec 28th, 2002 1:14 AM
This man has some interesting things to say, and is obviously very passionate about them. But what a horrible way to express your idea. He was obviously killing this cop to get attention, and direct that attention to his cause. What he doesn't understand is that not all attention is good attention. Nobody likes a cop killer. Nobody likes any kind of killer. If you want to get your point across, you need to approach in a way that won't offend and scare off TOO many people. People will pass judgement right off the bat if you do something too extreme. Killing a cop counts as pretty extreme.

So he's pissed about something, fine. I can respect that. I have no respect for somebody that has such little regard for other people that he thinks killing one of them is ok, as long as his point is made.
-Short Bus Driver
by Snifdoggie
Saturday Dec 28th, 2002 5:14 AM
What the fuck is wrong with you people? When you mean "you are" write it you're NOT your. Morons.
by Daniel W. Van Riper
(dwvr [at] atecone.net) Saturday Dec 28th, 2002 6:25 AM
Assuming you killed a cop for the reasons you gave:
You are playing into the hands of the Corporate enemy.
First: Just what do you think a police officer is, anyway? He or she is just another schmuck like the rest of us, trying or failing to do the right thing, torn between the decay of Democracy and the relentless evil wind of Corporatism. Good cop or bad cop, the guy you murdered is a working stiff. The Corporatists are gaining power over us because they manipulate us into fighting- and killing- each other.
Second: I found this statement through a popular web site. It linked to several corporate media articles on your act of murder and the justification you give. Basically, by seeking publicity through corporate channels, you are providing solid propaganda for the Corporate political agenda.
In other words, you are a sap. Apparently, you are mentally ill. Either way, stop identifying your violent act with upright citizens who are opposed to the Corporate monsters. Shut up and go away. Rot in jail where you belong.
by ***
Saturday Dec 28th, 2002 7:53 AM
You need to go back to reading your Nancy Drew novels little girl. Let the trained professional ADULTS handle the investigation. And by the way. How much of a threat to an escaping parolee is a cop gassing up his car? Why would a wanted parolee on the run with stolen guns even approach a cop facing away and bent over his patrol car? I really hope your not old enough to serve on a jury yet. Don't forget the facts of an investigation don't get published anywhere as to not compromise an investigation. I hear Harry Potter is interesting.
by Fear of Them
Saturday Dec 28th, 2002 8:36 AM
Anyone who thinks that Andy's message is new or different is sadly mistaken. He's not saying anything new at all. The same arguments have been made. Unfortunately, Americans get their world view from television, and the airwaves are owned by Them. I won't argue the truth of his statements. Yes, corporate America is evil and corrupt. Corporations are driven by investor capital. People buy stocks, and they buy stocks because they expect to make money buying and selling them. Therefore, every decision a corporation makes MUST be centered around profits. When profits are the penultimate goal, morality, decency and responsibility always suffer. I also agree that the current face of capitalism in America is not the only possible face. Unfortunately, greedy, powerful individuals drive too many of their agendas into our lives. I do not know what can be done to stop this. I do know that, while your message is valid, your means of getting attention were wrong. Corporations kill to further their interests, that's true ... But corporations that do this are EVIL. Mimicking them makes YOU evil. If you were openly fighting some injustice, I could almost (but not quite) justify the use of deadly violence. What you did was murder. Politicizing it after the fact demeans the message. Maybe you really believed that doing what you did was the only way to be heard. Hell, it's even possible that you're correct. But, dammit, man ... that doesn't make it right or acceptable.

Logically, if I'm going to denounce what you did, I should be able to provide an alternative; something you should have done instead. I can't do that. So I'm willing to concede that becoming a murderer has at least gotten you attention you wouldn't have gotten otherwise. But murdering a police officer to promote social justice is no different than burning down a church to promote recycling. Doing something terrible to promote a good cause that has NO relation to the terrible act isn't revolutionary: it's just stupid.

There's a word in Hindu, satyagraha ... it means, "one does what one must." It's the basis of nonviolent resistance. It means that you should do what is right, even if it means great personal sacrifice, even if it will ultimately be a futile gesture, because doing what is right is more important than anything else. It's not a very popular tactic nowadays. People are too selfish for it. In order to do what's right, one must fight the system. In all likelihood, to resist is to suffer. There is no guarantee that any of us can win. In all probability, we're all doomed. Runaway greed will destroy our society, our environment, our civilization and, eventually, our lives. There is very little hope that we can effect change. However, in order to do what is right, we must try. Andy failed to do what was right. He murdered a man. Now, in order to do what is right, he has to accept his punishment. The rest of us need to move on. Embrace the message, for it is not Andy's message, it is the message of a cause that Andy gave himself to. His actions in the furtherance of that cause were wrong. But the cause is just.
by david starkey
Saturday Dec 28th, 2002 12:59 PM
boring nonsense. the unabomber's manifesto, only not as clearly stated..

you probably were thinking this was your big moment..

yawn.
by Benway
Saturday Dec 28th, 2002 1:00 PM
Why don't you <br>

a) learn where the CAPS LOCK key is?<br>
b) learn to spell? <br>
c) read a book - any book? It would be a start.
by Benway
Saturday Dec 28th, 2002 1:00 PM
Why don't you
a) learn where the CAPS LOCK key is?
b) learn to spell?
c) read a book - any book? It would be a start.
by Austin Christiansen
(austinc [at] hotkey.net.au) Saturday Dec 28th, 2002 5:11 PM
Andy murdered one person? Andy mentions Iraq sitting on one of the richest oil fields in the world... Rawanda also sits on one of the worlds largest gas pockets. Has anyone yet worked out who's responsible for the nearly one million murders in Rawanda? On and on it goes, this ship of fools... P.s. I'm from the 'lucky' country and can still, just, sleep at night, lucky our crimes against humanity have not yet been uncovered, lol, we kicked John Pilger out for doing just that, lucky huh...
by HBK
Saturday Dec 28th, 2002 9:55 PM
So, in order to draw attention to all your so-called ideals, you whacked a cop. Some poor schlub whose only real crime was putting his life on the line day-in and day-out to protect good, honest people from those who would do them harm for their own personal gain.

You basically abused and ended a human life simply to further your own ends.

You, sir, are worse than those you fight against.

How somebody could be so filled with indignation at the immorality of others, and yet so thoroughly ignorant of the immorality of his own actions, is beyond me. Then again, I'm a rational, thinking human being, not a stark-raving lunatic.
by Philip
Sunday Dec 29th, 2002 7:39 AM
The facts seem to be that a corporation killed a cop. Since corporations kill people (usually more "indirectly", but so what) every day, what's the big deal here?

How do we know this cop was not corrupt? We don't. Maybe the moral situation is that this corporation did us all a favor. Hmmm?

A cop is no more or less important than an indian baby in india. You didn't see anyone from dow chemicals or enron go to jail for that one, did you?

The fact is that YOU the people of the US set up a system for yourself where corporations are allowed to kill people for the sake of profit. In europe CEOs can and do go to jail. Not here, because here in the US money beats morality and profit is more important than murder. Those are OUR values. Stop the hypocrisy and get back to your greed and stealing america! Remember what they say about the stock market : "greed and fear" - stop the bullshit everyone. If a corporation committs murder, then according to our values that's usually OK.

Everyone should be asking what's the profit motive here for Andrew Inc. Maybe a book deal? How did he help his shareholders?

by GW
Sunday Dec 29th, 2002 7:45 AM
Andrew defrauded Andrew INC! That bastard! He stole the shreholders money! report him to the SEC and give him a slap on the wrist!

How did Andrew's actions help andrew INC? Killing a rival CEO in the corporation of police state doesn't seem to be profitable for andrew INC. Lets see the book deal contract everyone! Lets make sure its going to the shareholders and not to andrew!
by Howie
Sunday Dec 29th, 2002 9:52 AM
If you really did kill a cop or any one else, I hope they hang you. What a bunch of bull shit. Come out from under your rock and live in the real world.

Howie
by doctor doom
Sunday Dec 29th, 2002 11:11 AM
All this proves is that human beings suck and deserve to become extinct. So all you cops, liberal wackos, gun totin' rednecks, granola eatin' greens can have a good time arguing about whatever you want. It just doesn't matter. Greed, corruption and vice will continue to destroy the planet and there isn't a fucking thing you can do about it. We can't win and will ultimately destroy ourselves, 'cause that's just the kind of animals we are.
by little man
Monday Dec 30th, 2002 12:51 AM
go away.
thank you
sincerely, The Devil
by hey you
Monday Dec 30th, 2002 1:12 AM
you are a very gay little man. very very gay.
by little man
Monday Dec 30th, 2002 1:15 AM
go away.
thank you
sincerely, The Devil
by Dan
Monday Dec 30th, 2002 8:25 AM
The needle is too good for him. Too bad this waste of air and bandwidth will be prosecuted in California where they don't have the nerve to implement the death penalty most of the time.
by Hoby
Monday Dec 30th, 2002 1:18 PM
Thank you Andy my fellow honky in arms. Some would criticise you and ask "what is the alternative? Communism?" I would ask how far away are we from it now considering the rampant corporate socialism that takes place in Washington.

Bow down to the one you serve: Philip Morris, RJR Nabisco, Nintendo, Nike, Amoco, McDonald's, Ford, RIAA, Haliburton, ATT Comcast, Enron (still investing overseas with US federal government funds)...
by HBK
Monday Dec 30th, 2002 4:55 PM
I see a lot of people saying, "He killed a guy, but he's anti-corporation, so he's my hero!"

Just because some people do bad things, doesn't give this guy the right to also do bad things. Murder is wrong, whether it's done by a corporation or an anti-corporate yahoo. It's that simple.

You people are why I become more of a misanthrope everyday.
by Monkey Man
Tuesday Dec 31st, 2002 10:54 AM

For all the McRae may have been insane, he obviously had some thoughts in his head. Not everyone can put together a manifesto such as this in such a coherent way.

I don't know if he actually imagined that incorporation would protect him from prosecution for the murder he seems to have comitted; but even if it doesn't, this makes an interesting statement about the immunity that is granted to corporated executives. Corporations often kill on a scale much larger than McRae, yet are never held accountable aside from perhaps being asked to provide monetary compensation. The difference is that the means by which corporations kill is much less direct and usually much more profitable than shooting a local cop in the back. Nevertheless, the results are every bit as real.

McRae should be held fully accountable for what he's done. But so should all corporations, no matter how profitable the offenses they commit or where they commit them.


On the issue of the murder of a Red Bluff police officer: it's a damn shame Mobilio is dead. All reports indicate he was a nice guy, and that his family has been devastated by his death.

The guy wasn't at the helm of the oppressive corporate system McRae is so angry at. He was just a cog, but he was a convenient symbol of the system because it is the police who are called upon to enforce the oppression that the system requires.

I'm sure Mobilio joined the police force for admirable reasons, and the police do admirable work. The dangerous business of protecting people from violence should earn the police great appreciation and respect.

Yet when police are required to enforce laws that infringe on the rights of the people, they are demonized and even good cops like Mobilio come to be despised as the hand of the system.

At this point it becomes meaningless to separate individuals who may well just be doing their job and may well have joined the police with good intentions, from the abuses carried out by the police as a whole. Each and every police officer may feel as helpless as those they may periodically have to abuse, yet by failing to have the courage to do as their consciences dictate 100% of the time, they become as guilty as those at the helm.

In an abusive police state, can a distinction be made between good cops and bad cops? No.

by Monkey Man
Tuesday Dec 31st, 2002 10:54 AM

For all the McRae may have been insane, he obviously had some thoughts in his head. Not everyone can put together a manifesto such as this in such a coherent way.

I don't know if he actually imagined that incorporation would protect him from prosecution for the murder he seems to have comitted; but even if it doesn't, this makes an interesting statement about the immunity that is granted to corporated executives. Corporations often kill on a scale much larger than McRae, yet are never held accountable aside from perhaps being asked to provide monetary compensation. The difference is that the means by which corporations kill is much less direct and usually much more profitable than shooting a local cop in the back. Nevertheless, the results are every bit as real.

McRae should be held fully accountable for what he's done. But so should all corporations, no matter how profitable the offenses they commit or where they commit them.


On the issue of the murder of a Red Bluff police officer: it's a damn shame Mobilio is dead. All reports indicate he was a nice guy, and that his family has been devastated by his death.

The guy wasn't at the helm of the oppressive corporate system McRae is so angry at. He was just a cog, but he was a convenient symbol of the system because it is the police who are called upon to enforce the oppression that the system requires.

I'm sure Mobilio joined the police force for admirable reasons, and the police do admirable work. The dangerous business of protecting people from violence should earn the police great appreciation and respect.

Yet when police are required to enforce laws that infringe on the rights of the people, they are demonized and even good cops like Mobilio come to be despised as the hand of the system.

At this point it becomes meaningless to separate individuals who may well just be doing their job and may well have joined the police with good intentions, from the abuses carried out by the police as a whole. Each and every police officer may feel as helpless as those they may periodically have to abuse, yet by failing to have the courage to do as their consciences dictate 100% of the time, they become as guilty as those at the helm.

In an abusive police state, can a distinction be made between good cops and bad cops? No.

by Monkey Man
Tuesday Dec 31st, 2002 10:54 AM

For all the McRae may have been insane, he obviously had some thoughts in his head. Not everyone can put together a manifesto such as this in such a coherent way.

I don't know if he actually imagined that incorporation would protect him from prosecution for the murder he seems to have comitted; but even if it doesn't, this makes an interesting statement about the immunity that is granted to corporated executives. Corporations often kill on a scale much larger than McRae, yet are never held accountable aside from perhaps being asked to provide monetary compensation. The difference is that the means by which corporations kill is much less direct and usually much more profitable than shooting a local cop in the back. Nevertheless, the results are every bit as real.

McRae should be held fully accountable for what he's done. But so should all corporations, no matter how profitable the offenses they commit or where they commit them.


On the issue of the murder of a Red Bluff police officer: it's a damn shame Mobilio is dead. All reports indicate he was a nice guy, and that his family has been devastated by his death.

The guy wasn't at the helm of the oppressive corporate system McRae is so angry at. He was just a cog, but he was a convenient symbol of the system because it is the police who are called upon to enforce the oppression that the system requires.

I'm sure Mobilio joined the police force for admirable reasons, and the police do admirable work. The dangerous business of protecting people from violence should earn the police great appreciation and respect.

Yet when police are required to enforce laws that infringe on the rights of the people, they are demonized and even good cops like Mobilio come to be despised as the hand of the system.

At this point it becomes meaningless to separate individuals who may well just be doing their job and may well have joined the police with good intentions, from the abuses carried out by the police as a whole. Each and every police officer may feel as helpless as those they may periodically have to abuse, yet by failing to have the courage to do as their consciences dictate 100% of the time, they become as guilty as those at the helm.

In an abusive police state, can a distinction be made between good cops and bad cops? No.

by editor
Wednesday Jan 1st, 2003 9:10 AM
Organize your points, you raving, fucking loon-- and while your at it , make sure your conclusions actually come from your premises. I agree with your stance, but you're making the rest of the movement look like raving assholes.
by editor
Wednesday Jan 1st, 2003 9:11 AM
Organize your points, you raving, fucking loon-- and while your at it , make sure your conclusions actually come from your premises. I agree with your stance, but you're making the rest of the movement look like raving assholes.
by rooflez!
Wednesday Jan 1st, 2003 3:03 PM
I LOOKED AT MY ASSHOLE IN THE MIRROR!


IT BLEWW MY FUCKING MIND!
by tom pain
Wednesday Jan 1st, 2003 3:45 PM
you inane ignorant fool wizwart, work inside the system? run for office? for what party, the 2 major party's are both bought and payed for by the very rich, the media is own by the very rich, do you think that a true honest candidate who goe's against the system could ever realy cant to any position of powerer? are you realy that stupid our do you just injoying sounding like a fool. Well I certainly hope that you did not kill a cop, they them selfs are nothing but a poor victim of the system to, yes a lot of them are mean and some are corrupt but on the whole they are nothing but poor pupets on a string
by Pope John Paul II
Wednesday Jan 1st, 2003 10:42 PM
Aren't alot of these messages exact repititions?
by OOOO
Wednesday Jan 1st, 2003 10:43 PM
godkills.jpg
Go to sleep Ho
by cops r the killers
Thursday Jan 2nd, 2003 12:27 AM
i live in this shit hole town thesystem is run by back woods rednecks.people are tired of the good old boy system .can't walk the street past ten at nite ;whith out a fucking cop stoping you.if your black or mexican your really fucked.the cops killed a man in hand cuffs a few months ago here.no big deal,but when the cop got shot every one cried.i'm not sad. what comes around go's around
by Mee Iyam
Thursday Jan 2nd, 2003 4:25 PM
You useless human being, you have no brain, you are not truly human.

Your "logic" makes about as much sense as me saying that I want to end hunger and evil in the world, by making some toast, putting butter on it, and standing on one foot while I eat it.

Yes, that's what will solve the world's problems.

Your reasoning skills are more like those of a retarded two year old than those of a twenty-three year old.

I hope you get killed in prison, in the name of some vague cause that some uselss loser like yourself comes up with. I hope that no one gives a shi* about the cause, and that your murder has absolutely no relation to the stated cause, just like what you did.

More importantly, I hope you suffer horribly before/as you die, retard. I hope you get raped several times.

You are so fuc*ing retarded, I just can't get over it. Maybe I'll all get lucky, and you will get killed in prison, moron.

Well, just another example of how decent the average human being is: whatever we do wrong in life, we'll never be as lowly as you. Why didn't you just kill yourself? There's still time, you know.
by ..!..
Friday Jan 3rd, 2003 4:37 PM
BUBBA YOU RETARD, HOW MANY KITTENS HAVE YOU KILLED TODAY YOU DIRTY ROTTEN SOB? KITTENS ARE COOL! COPS SUCK!

by Realist
Saturday Jan 4th, 2003 12:25 AM
There are two totally separate issues addressed here: cop-killing and the decline of a nation due to the blindness of the masses. Let's discuss the easy one first.

Police officers, Paramedics, Garbage Men, Programmers. These occupations, as are all occupations, are united by the fact that there are good people and bad people doing the jobs. I mention this only to quell any arguments that I hate all Police when I say, the Officer's death is not the important issue here.

The main issue is the decline of the nation. What people don't seem to understand is that our country is young and it's fall is inevitable, as is the fall of every civilization. Why, you may or may not ask? The answer is simple. Of all the people, a few see the problem.

For every one of you who know the risk of trading privacy for security, there are thousands who don't.

For every one of you who choose your truth over the one the media doles out, there are thousands who don't.

For every one of you who cringes when "Springer" or "Judge Judy" spouts their ignorance, there are thousands who don't.

For every one of you who challenges what the government tells you is right and wrong, there are thousands who don't.

I count myself among the former. I think, I challenge, I know where we are headed . . . and I fear it.
by sleffster
Saturday Jan 4th, 2003 3:24 PM
What makes Andy think he can play god? Why, his firearm....the only mistake I can see here is that he shot a puppet, and he probably won't get the publicity that he sought. If he had destroyed property instead, I could see his point a lot more clearly
by joe
Monday Jan 6th, 2003 1:25 AM
I am very sad and disturbed by the recent events, someone i know told me they knew you, but had no fucking idea where this came from they had never even heard you spouting off any fanatical bullshit, i feel for the officer and his family, why would you take everything from someone? and for a prinicple! You cant ever give it back...
by joe
Monday Jan 6th, 2003 1:25 AM
I am very sad and disturbed by the recent events, someone i know told me they knew you, but had no fucking idea where this came from they had never even heard you spouting off any fanatical bullshit, i feel for the officer and his family, why would you take everything from someone? and for a prinicple! You cant ever give it back...
by One of the People
Monday Jan 13th, 2003 7:35 PM
Fact: Most police are cowards(95%), the others are just sincerely wrong.

Reason: They take an oath to the US Constitution and then violate it on a daily, hourly, and minutely basis; year after year after Police state year.

Why are they cowards? Because being a power hungry cop means more to them than having the integrity to oppose their department policies that require them to wipe their arse with the constitution leading to sheering the sheople constantly. Also they need the comfort of their guns and fellow cowards unity to crush all who disagree with them. Most of us live in the same world without guns on our hips ?!

You may think that their violations are just part of their job. Well killing Jews was just part of the job for Nazi guards! They were hung anyway.

Most people have not even a basic concept of what freedom is. Read each one of the amendments in the bill of rights and you should be able to think of an example of standard Gov behavior that negates it. If you can't than YOU probably should get out more !

All laws are ultimately enforced at the end of a henchmens gun. The police are those henchmen. Why be mad at OBL when the Gov henchmen have done worse to you ? If bombing OBL in Afghanistan is right than why not bomb the Hitlers here in America, does geography really make a difference ?

If police want to prove they have courage they would refuse to enforce unConstitutional policies/laws !

Protect and serve ? What ?
Rather "Harrass and collect " is their corporate motto.

I know of no one who doesn't loath them or can think of a single good thing that one of those cowards has done for them.

Police are cowards and as such are the repudiation of society, even lower than IRS agents if that were possible !

America: Land of the fee, home of the slave !
by noah
Wednesday Jan 15th, 2003 10:49 PM
Their can be debate about the wisdom of this course of action, about its ethics, or even about its veracity. But it most certainly was not an act of cowardice. anyone who calls it so does not have any understanding of the police or their capacity for violence. In fact, it could be argued - knowing that police have deadly weapons and the power of the state behind them, and knowing that police use them on a daily basis to terrorize people - that Andrew was making a "pre-emptive strike" in self-defense and defense of those he cares about.
by cynup
Thursday Jan 16th, 2003 2:38 PM
For those of you who are still debating the truth behind Andy's claims, they are real (in that he took the life a police officer). all sorts of questions can be raised about moral high-grounds, but the fact remains that reciprocity is interminable without recognizing the humanity of the opposition. Lets assume the worst about this officer and say he was a crooked cop who took bribes and enforced debts for bookies and brutalized hispanic migrant workers from the local community. If that were the case, he still has mitigators that warrant his right to life, as does poor, troubled, "Andy". Maybe he took bribes from people smugglers that were known to terrorize their captives, if so (i am NOT saying it is true), he did it to provide for his young family, or to help his ailing parents who couldnt afford their medication, or a myriad of other potential hypotheticals. Regardless of the circumstances, or the state of the union, he did not deserve to be murdered and his death will only serve to make more opaque the blood-stained history of the public protection of private property.

Accordingly, Andy's inevitable condemnation to Death Row (California does have the largest in the country, disproportionate to population) will only add to the suffering, increase the pain, and make heavier the flow of tears that will come from the eyes of all who are touched by this tragic set of events.

And so the wheel spins, whackos on the left will take Andy as a martyr and zealots on the right the same for the officer--further exacerbating the perpetual failure of communcation and--most importantly, preventing any healing, which is the only thing that everyone involved needs.
by Linda
Friday Jan 17th, 2003 11:04 PM
It has taken me 2 months to bring myself to view this website. The man that was murdered was my husband. He was always a fair officer who the community loved, and devoted most of his time to educating young children, who adored him. The child who adored him most was our son. He is an innocent child, who will never know the warm embrace of his father, and never see the love that existed between his parents. It is an absolute tragedy - many lives have been forever scarred - and I still can't believe that David will never come home.
by Counterrevolutionary
Saturday Jan 18th, 2003 12:54 PM
Linda,

Linda, I sincerely and compassionately mean it when I say that your husband did not die in vain. You can talk to other police wives, and the police themselves, to convince them to do the right thing and refuse to enforce BS ANTIconstitutional laws and/or quit being Gov henchmen ! Otherwise your husband did die in vain.

I sincerely wish that your husband could be brought back so he could quit his job as a state henchman and do something honorable for his family, community, and country. (i.e : sewer worker, porta potty pumper, trash sorter, etc) these, for all seriousness sake, are honorable professions especially compared to being a gov henchman (ie: police officer, IRS agent, congressman, etc.)

Nazis also had wives, children, friends and children in their community who loved them and mourned them after they were righteously gunned down. THEY WERE STILL NAZIS THOUGH ! ! !

Linda, I hope you find another man to love who also loves you and his country enough not to sell out for power.

When police insulate themselves from the established justice system the only justice they are eligible for is McCraes' justice !

Best wishes

by Russil Wvong
(russilwvong [at] yahoo.com) Wednesday Jan 22nd, 2003 11:23 PM
Mrs. Mobilio, I'm really sorry.

For everyone else reading this: noble ends do not justify evil means. What's the difference between Andrew Mickel and Timothy McVeigh?

by COUNTERREVOLUTIONARY
Thursday Jan 23rd, 2003 1:58 AM
ARE THE POLICE NOBLE BECAUSE THE CRIMES THEY COMMIT ARE SPONSORED BY TAX MONEY ? OR ARE THEY NOBLE BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN DOING IT SOOOOOO LONG ? OR MAYBE THEY ARE NOBLE BECAUSE THE HORRIFIC CRIMES THEY COMMIT ARE DONE WITH SUCH PROFESSIONALISM ?

COLOR OF AUTHORITY MAKES CRIME 10 FOLD WORSE ! ! !

This is why when JUSTICE befalls these nazis it is plainly NOBLE beginning, end, and in between !

OR do you judge the actions of others based on how unusuall or infrequent it is ? If this is the case then JUSTICE applied to cowardly police, redundant, should seem freakish since it so rarely happens !

They are usually rewarded for nazi behavior with the all too familiar PAID SUSPENSION, paid vacation to the rest of us, and especially those who are propaganda impaired !

When police act as though above the law then the law WILL be brought to them !

Study the law and KNOW, without a shred of doubt, that ALL police in 2003 USA are criminals. This is fact and cannot be refuted.You cowardly gestapo out there who doubt this live in fantasy land ! If you don't agree with me it is because you CHOOSE to believe a lie to free yourself from guilt that would otherwise drive you to insanity. OR you are pathalogical victimizers incapable of remorse or guilt OR you are just an ignorant pig who swallows all that propaganda BS that you department feeds you. I think the latter is most likely ! Five cowards I have interviewed could not prove they were not criminals in light of the law. This makes them lower than nazis ! At least nazis weren't trying to pass themselves off as legitimate authority having moral superiority to tjose they oppressed and killed !

Cops, find a backbone and quit your job or stand up to your department heads and refuse to violate your oath to the US constitution ! Be REAL Americans instead of cowardly power hungry nazis !

by counterrevolutionary
Thursday Jan 23rd, 2003 2:30 AM
What is more important, freedom or comfort ?

GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH

Words spoken that are remembered by many. Most are not aware that this was a very small segment of a long discourse given by a man named Patrick Henry on why it is the duty of every man with honor to stand against tyrany. To kill tyrants if need be. THIS is the foundation of our country. A foundation mixed with blood, sweat and tears. LIFE is less valuable than FREEDOM. Those of you who value life/comfort above freedom deserve neither. (paraphrase Benjamin Franklin)

Refuse to participate in the animated contest of freedom, die and be remembered no more !
by Russil Wvong
(russilwvong [at] yahoo.com) Thursday Jan 23rd, 2003 7:11 PM
Something I should have said in my last comments: I'd suggest that you try to stay away from this web page. People will say all sorts of cruel and terrible things anonymously that they would never say in real life.

by counterrevolutionary
Friday Jan 24th, 2003 12:11 AM
Russil,

Pigs are the ones with the elaborate system of institutionalized, and taxpayer funded, ANONYMITY !

These cowards are the ones who hide behind their tarnished badges to do their evil deeds.

Why is it that so many of those cowards "patrol" in areas where they DON'T live. Simple, anonymity allows them to be their gestapo best !

Try being a pig when your victims know where you live !
More proof that they are cowards !

The same reason people on this site choose to be anonymous is the same reason those people speak on this site. Because pigs will retaliate against all who disent or refuse to kiss their asses.

I would not hesitate to share all I have and MUCH more FACE to FACE with ANYONE while we are sitting at that persons home. Being in that persons home would give them the healthy dose of humility that they need to prevent them from being egotistical pigs.

Russil, you obviously have very little understanding of the situation at hand.

Police state USA is the problem. Despotism is the symptom. Resistance, revolt if forced to, is the solution !

Death to tyrants !
by Blah-blah
Friday Jan 24th, 2003 10:09 AM
counterrevolutionary,

I think Russil was making a funny. You didn't get it, did you?

Just take the hook out with some pliers.

B.
by Leslie
Saturday Jan 25th, 2003 3:43 AM
Did you ever think that killing a man made you just as bad as Bush? What about his family you stupid asshole? I hope you rot in jail and get to be the bitch of a bigger asshole than you.
by Leslie
Saturday Jan 25th, 2003 3:45 AM
Linda- I am very sorry for your loss.
by Don't Vote
Monday Feb 10th, 2003 12:15 PM
Voting no longer works. The system has been totally corrupted.
by Don't Vote
Monday Feb 10th, 2003 12:16 PM
Voting no longer works. The system has been totally corrupted.
by !!!!!!
Monday Mar 3rd, 2003 6:03 PM
Yeah. Before you asswipes dangle your profound opinions out here for everyone to gander at, WHY DON'T YOU LEARN TO WRITE IN YOUR OWN LANGUAGE. Duh--I is... uh... edumuhcated... duh, I think.
A little literacy makes your ideas slightly more digestible. At least Andy can write a coherent sentence, for the most part. What you meant to write was "You're stupid." See, "you're" is a contraction, of the two--separate--words, "you" and "are". I doubt there's more of a blatant demonstration of stupidity than mis-writing a two-word phrase--about stupidity.
Do everyone a favor and get a tee shirt that reads "I'm with stupid" with an arrow pointing UP--then, go blow your brains out, because you're wasting space and air.
by asdf
Wednesday Mar 5th, 2003 7:11 PM
I only wish I had the same courage that Andy had, he risked his life and freedom for something he truly believed in. I believe though that going around killing the police isn't the answer (even though they are filthy pigs). The best way to show your disapproval for our goverment is to go reside in another country, you won't be supporting the country with your tax dollars anymore. I believe its only a matter of time anyway for the American political system to collapse upon itself. If you want to protest the government ,however, do so in a non-violent fashion, such as war protests and voting does still count (Bush can't steal every election, can he?). Resorting to violence is stooping down to the government's level. Andy seems to be a very bright and passionate young man who unfornately didn't make the best choice to express his strong ideals.
by Me
Monday Mar 17th, 2003 7:16 PM
Why is this article still here? I mean, I believe in free speech up to a point, but I have just wasted an hour of my life reading a bunch of crap from a lot of people who seem to be angry about everything as long as it has a common thread. Some people seemed reasonable, which made it interesting, but overall I would have to say it was time wasted.

I don't think the way to stop corruption in the police force is to hide and cry and throw a temper tantrum about it. Grow up.

I also don't believe that EVERY person who holds this particular job is the same. People who think that is true would be just as angry about any other subject, because their narrow mindset does not allow them to think beyond "all or nothing." Remove the angry blinders and see the truth.

There IS corruption in some police forces. There is NOT complete corruption throughout the system. The only way to fight corruption is to do something about it in a way that is acceptable to the MAJORITY of people, who will help with a worthy cause.

So stop whining and saying it's just not fair. Stop saying that it's someone else's problem to solve. Stop thinking that something you do for attention is actually helping - no, really, what this idiot did was just for attention.

And every one of us who has written or read any part of this, we have no life outside some mindless debate with few actual ideals behind it. Nobody can really look up to any of us as long as we sit here wasting our time.
by counterrevolutionary
Tuesday Mar 18th, 2003 6:31 PM
Very contrite of you "Me":

The fact of the matter is that you are simply incorrect, aka WRONG ! No, all police are not evil, just most of them, the rest are just idiots ! But the relevant issue at hand is that ALL of them are criminals, yes every last extorting, intimidating, club weilding, paid suspension one of them ! The fact that you are unable to recognize this is proof that you are in fact naive. You may think that you are not but another simple truth is that the naive are incapable of judging their own level of naivete' because they are naive. Although I digress I am also certain that you were probably confused by the simplistic aforementioned paradigm.

All police are corrupt, example: The US Constitution has been interpreted by the US SUPREME COURT, and many state superior courts including CA to give the RIGHT of travel to all Americans. They further elaborate that an automobile is an inherently safe form of transportation, to be viewed in the eyes of law as equivalent to horse/wagon, bicycle, etc, etc, etc.
Travel in a car is a right as long as one is not engaged in commerce, e.g. tranport of persons or property for hire or compensation.

Kent v. Dulles, 357 US 116, 125
Schactman v. Dulles, 96 App DC 287, 293.

The established POLICE STATE refuses to allow people to NOT be commercial.
Try telling, or presenting as I have repeatedly, this irrefutable proof to a cop after he has driven like a maniac to turn around and catch up to you only to tell you that your 10 mph over the speed limit is a danger to the community. He will, as my experince has shown me, either ignore and REFUSE to read what you present or you will be harrassed with an onslaught of perpetual extortion from his gang eerrrr department.

Next you will be put into an impossible legal situation, except that it is possible for the corrupt henchmen and their cronies, the courts and police.

The sixth amendment to the US Constitution says that if you are accused of a crime that basically you have a RIGHT to have the charges explained to you, to a trial by jury of your PEERS, and to counsel.

The US court of appeals ruled in 2002, in Texas, that a traffic offense is an arrestable crime. -------Read carefully for the disgusting display of police corruption------But the truth of the matter is that it is a crime only when the pig stops you and tickets and/or incarcerates you. MYSTERIOUSLY when you arrive at court the crime was converted into an "INFRACTION" a legal term not addressed by the US Constitution,although it is uniformly considered NOT a crime- I was told this by 2 judges in different circumstances, HOW CONVENIENT ! Under an infraction you have no right to counsel, jury, or to have any charges explained to you. The pig acts as prosecuting attorney and the judge takes every lie he spews, according to police training 101, as gospel. Everything you say will ONLY be used against you, and never for you. The kangaroo will hop through with Alice from Wonderland on its back and you will find you wallet empty !

The reason for police is revenue, courts can't make money if they have to hire lawyers, answer legal questions according to the standards imposed on the general public, and hire/organize juries according to what your RIGHTS dictate. They just create a fictive legal world where the US Constitution doesn't exist.

Without the cowardly police henchman the courts could not perpetrate this racketeering enterprise on the MASSIVE scale that they do.

It really is a system with NO law, aka anarchy.

Police create and perpetuate this disgusting situation because it profits them financially and egotistically !


Traveling is a Right

For many years professionals within the criminal justice system have acted upon the belief that traveling by motor vehicle upon the roadway was a privilege that was gained by a citizen only after approval by their respective state governments in the form of a permit or drivers license.

Legislators, police officers, and court officials are being made aware that there are court decisions disproving the opinion that traveling is a privilege that requires government approval.

"Even the legislature has no power to deny to a citizen the right to travel upon the highway and transport his property in the ordinary course of his business or pleasure, though this right may be regulated in accordance with the public interest and convenience." Chicago Motor Coach v. Chicago, 169 NE 22.

("Regulated" here means traffic safety enforcement: stop lights, signs, etc.)

"The right of the citizen to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, either by carriage or by automobile, is not a mere privilege which a city may prohibit at will, but a common right which he has under the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Thompson v. Smith, 154 SE 179.

It could not be stated more conclusively that citizens of the states have a right to travel, without approval or restrictions (license), and that this right is protected under the U.S. Constitution. Here are other court decisions that expound the same facts:

"The right to travel is a part of the liberty of which the citizen cannot be deprived without due process of law under the 5th Amendment." Kent v. Dulles, 357 US 116, 125.

"Undoubtedly the right of locomotion, the right to move from one place to another according to inclination, is an attribute of personal liberty, and the right, ordinarily, of free transit from or through the territory of any State is a right secured by the 14th amendment and by other provisions of the Constitution." Schactman v. Dulles, 96 App DC 287, 293.

As hard as it is for those in law enforcement to believe, there is no room for speculation in these court decisions. The American citizen does indeed have the inalienable right to use the roadways unrestricted in any manner as long as they are not damaging or violating property or rights of others.

Government, in requiring the people to file for drivers license, vehicle registrations, mandatory insurance, and demanding they stop for vehicle inspections, roadblocks, etc. are restricting and therefore violating the peoples’ common law right to travel.

Is this a new legal interpretation on this subject? Apparently not. The American Citizens and Lawmen Association, in conjunction with the U.S. Federal Law Research Center are presently involved in studies in several areas involving questions on constitutional law. One of the many areas under review is that of the citizen’s right to travel. A spokesman stated in an interview:

"Upon researching this subject over many months, substantial case law has presented itself that completely substantiates the position that the ‘right to travel unrestricted upon the nations highways’ is and always has been a fundamental right of every Citizen."

This means that the beliefs and opinions of our state legislators, the courts, and those of us involved in the law enforcement profession have acted upon for years have been in error. Researchers armed with actual facts state that U.S. case law is overwhelming. To restrict in any fashion the movement of the individual American, in free exercise of the right to travel upon the roadways (excluding commerce, which the state legislatures are correct in regulating), is a serious breach of those freedoms secured by the U.S. Constitution, as well as most state constitutions.

Our system of law dictates that there is only one way to remove a right belonging to the people. That is by a person knowingly waiving a particular right.

Some of the confusion in our present system has arisen because many millions of people have waived their right to travel unrestricted, and opted into the jurisdiction of the state. Those who have knowingly given up these rights are legally regulated by state law, and must obtain permits, registrations, insurance, etc.

Every police officer should keep the following U.S. court ruling in mind before issuing citations:

"The claim and exercise of a Constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime." Miller v. U.S., F.2d 486, 489.

HEY "ME", and others who think Police are just doing their job, get a brain transplant ! AND exclude criminal enterprise from your definition of "job" !
by BRIAN
Friday Mar 28th, 2003 7:23 AM
This goes out to Andy and his friends. I can see where you are coming from on your problems with corporate america. While it is true most of them are scumbags, I cannot understand your actions leading to the death of a police officer. I'll be honest with you when I say that you are with out a doubt a pig of a human being. You can bitch about cops being discriminatory, but it does not give you the right to take another life. What also gets me is how you showed off your true self, and how much of a pussy you really are. You shot a man in the back off the head. I'm trying to picture you in my mind and I keep coming up with the same picture. All I see is a rich little boy spoiled by his parents thinking that mommy and daddy will find the best attorney and ge me out early. Anyway that big black dude standing behind you, you know the one who has a dick the size of a Hillshire Farms Summer Sausage will be wanting a piece of your probably not so virgin ass. Any jail sentence you get will not be a cakewalk with big Tyrone hanging out back there. YOU HAVE A NICE DAY
by counterrevolutionary
Friday Apr 4th, 2003 9:22 AM
Do you think Andy has internet access where he is ?

Obviously you didn't write this to him, think about it ?

So who were you writing it for ?
by Jackson
Saturday Apr 19th, 2003 2:19 AM
Free enterprise means no licensing, no permits, no fines, no tax, no special rights of any kind for any people... including police. As song as there are cops, there can be no free enterprise. They are defenders of our non-free enterprise system, which kills, rapes, and spreads disease, (look at AMA price fixing) A cop is a good well meaning fellow that has become a cancer cell. You either eliminate the cancer, or the whole body dies. Cops are like any other person who wishes to have "special" rights for any so-called reason. Just a cancer, now. Not to be hated, just eliminated....... from our society. Or has the cancer spread too far........
by anonymous
Monday Jun 2nd, 2003 8:25 AM
Judge orders trial in Red Bluff cop death

The former college student from Olympia, Wash., is accused in the November slaying of the officer.
By Christine Vovakes --

Published 2:15 a.m. PDT Thursday, May 22, 2003
CORNING -- A judge ruled Wednesday that 24-year-old Andrew Hampton Mickel will stand trial in the murder of Red Bluff Police Officer David Mobilio.
The 31-year-old officer's widow and several family members, some weeping audibly, listened as Tehama Superior Court Judge Richard Scheuler handed Mickel over at the end of a one-day preliminary hearing.

The former college student from Olympia, Wash., sat quietly in his chair and paid rapt attention during the proceedings. He was shackled, but the chain on his right hand was longer so that he could jot notes on a yellow legal pad. He showed no reaction to the judge's ruling.

Tehama County District Attorney Gregg Cohen called six witnesses. First was Red Bluff Police Sgt. Ted Wiley, who had gone in search of Mobilio when he failed to respond to dispatchers after stopping to refuel his patrol car in the early morning hours of Nov. 19.

Wiley described driving to an unmanned fueling station at the northern edge of town and finding the officer face down near his vehicle, with his gun a few feet from his body. "I saw him lying on the cement. ... I could see a large amount of blood by his head," he said.

Dr. Thomas Resk, a forensic pathologist, said an autopsy revealed two additional gunshot wounds in the back. He testified that the shots to the back were fired first, and that Mobilio would have been face down with "the muzzle of the gun directly over the back of his head" when he sustained the final blow.

On cross-examination Mickel's defense attorney, James Reichle, vigorously challenged that scenario, but the pathologist did not waver in his conclusion.

Other witnesses described Mickel's odyssey through southern Oregon back roads where he flipped his car Nov. 19 in a place that Harney County (Oregon) Deputy Timothy Alexander called "high desert, with lots of sagebrush and kind of in the middle of nowhere."

A family at the nearby Whitehorse Ranch helped Mickel. Alexander later drove Mickel two-and-a-half hours to catch a bus in Burns. While searching Mickel's backpack, the deputy found a loaded gun, which he cleared through a database and returned to Mickel with the advice not to take it on the bus.

Jeff Lierly, special agent with the California Bureau of Investigation, testified that the woman in Burns who sold Mickel a ticket told Mickel to inform the bus driver about the gun. After he got on the bus, Mickel got off briefly and threw items into a trash bin. She retrieved the cast-offs, including the gun, all of which were later turned over to investigators, Lierly said.

Forensic specialists linked the gun to bullets that killed Mobilio and determined it was the same gun Mickel had purchased in 2002.

Mickel fled to Concord, N.H., where he was arrested Nov. 26. Mickel, who used the name Andrew Hampton McCrae at the time of his arrest, was a sophomore at Evergreen State College in Olympia, Wash., and an Army veteran.

During a hearing in February, Mickel told Scheuler that he admitted committing the act that resulted in Mobilio's death, but that he was pleading not guilty because he wanted to go to trial to show that it was "a valid and justified action."

Cohen asked that the unusual plea be added as part of the preliminary hearing, along with a typed portion of an interview that Mickel gave to a Redding TV reporter.

Outside court, Reichle said his client "has not admitted guilt. He's made statements admitting responsibility for his actions."

Arraignment was set for June 9 in Tehama Superior Court in Red Bluff.

by anonymous
Monday Jun 2nd, 2003 8:42 AM
Judge orders trial in Red Bluff cop death

The former college student from Olympia, Wash., is accused in the November slaying of the officer.
By Christine Vovakes --

Published 2:15 a.m. PDT Thursday, May 22, 2003
CORNING -- A judge ruled Wednesday that 24-year-old Andrew Hampton Mickel will stand trial in the murder of Red Bluff Police Officer David Mobilio.
The 31-year-old officer's widow and several family members, some weeping audibly, listened as Tehama Superior Court Judge Richard Scheuler handed Mickel over at the end of a one-day preliminary hearing.

The former college student from Olympia, Wash., sat quietly in his chair and paid rapt attention during the proceedings. He was shackled, but the chain on his right hand was longer so that he could jot notes on a yellow legal pad. He showed no reaction to the judge's ruling.

Tehama County District Attorney Gregg Cohen called six witnesses. First was Red Bluff Police Sgt. Ted Wiley, who had gone in search of Mobilio when he failed to respond to dispatchers after stopping to refuel his patrol car in the early morning hours of Nov. 19.

Wiley described driving to an unmanned fueling station at the northern edge of town and finding the officer face down near his vehicle, with his gun a few feet from his body. "I saw him lying on the cement. ... I could see a large amount of blood by his head," he said.

Dr. Thomas Resk, a forensic pathologist, said an autopsy revealed two additional gunshot wounds in the back. He testified that the shots to the back were fired first, and that Mobilio would have been face down with "the muzzle of the gun directly over the back of his head" when he sustained the final blow.

On cross-examination Mickel's defense attorney, James Reichle, vigorously challenged that scenario, but the pathologist did not waver in his conclusion.

Other witnesses described Mickel's odyssey through southern Oregon back roads where he flipped his car Nov. 19 in a place that Harney County (Oregon) Deputy Timothy Alexander called "high desert, with lots of sagebrush and kind of in the middle of nowhere."

A family at the nearby Whitehorse Ranch helped Mickel. Alexander later drove Mickel two-and-a-half hours to catch a bus in Burns. While searching Mickel's backpack, the deputy found a loaded gun, which he cleared through a database and returned to Mickel with the advice not to take it on the bus.

Jeff Lierly, special agent with the California Bureau of Investigation, testified that the woman in Burns who sold Mickel a ticket told Mickel to inform the bus driver about the gun. After he got on the bus, Mickel got off briefly and threw items into a trash bin. She retrieved the cast-offs, including the gun, all of which were later turned over to investigators, Lierly said.

Forensic specialists linked the gun to bullets that killed Mobilio and determined it was the same gun Mickel had purchased in 2002.

Mickel fled to Concord, N.H., where he was arrested Nov. 26. Mickel, who used the name Andrew Hampton McCrae at the time of his arrest, was a sophomore at Evergreen State College in Olympia, Wash., and an Army veteran.

During a hearing in February, Mickel told Scheuler that he admitted committing the act that resulted in Mobilio's death, but that he was pleading not guilty because he wanted to go to trial to show that it was "a valid and justified action."

Cohen asked that the unusual plea be added as part of the preliminary hearing, along with a typed portion of an interview that Mickel gave to a Redding TV reporter.

Outside court, Reichle said his client "has not admitted guilt. He's made statements admitting responsibility for his actions."

Arraignment was set for June 9 in Tehama Superior Court in Red Bluff.

by Seth
(IREVOLT_1 [at] HOTMAIL.COM) Wednesday Jul 30th, 2003 12:08 PM
I live in Red Bluff and I have lived here all my life. First of all I agree strongly with what the alternative media in America have been doing recently via the internet and other more traditional mediums (indymedia, pacifica, democracynow, geurillanews, motherjones, utne, the list goes on, and i think credit needs to be given to build a movement). I think it is a brave and noble thing to stand in the face of a dictatorship (yes, Mr. Bush, love him or hate him, "won" the presidency through voter scrub lists, and ultimately... a right wing superior court decision much like the way dictatorships throughout the world have appointted themselves as judge, jury, and executionor). Wait ... strike that... its not "brave" and "noble". It is an obligation for any well informed individual to spread VITAL information through any means available to him/her. A man who jumps in the river to save a drowning child would not consider himself a hero, nor should a journalist reporting the truths necessary to the survival of our democracy think they are some how saving the world. We (and by we i mean human beings, every one of us) must not forget that regardless of our beliefs we must try to find common ground. Democrat or Republican. CEO or Pizza Guy. Globalizer or Protester. White collor or Blue collar. Man or Woman. Father or Child. Black or White.... we must work together. We must listen THEN speak and resist violence and intolerance in all its forms.
I am a conflicted individual... NOFX's new album "THE WAR ON ERRORISM" is an artistic expression of dissent I relate to on an emotional leveL; the books "THE BEST DEMOCRACY MONEY CAN BUY"BY Greg Palast, Project Censoreds "CENSORED 2003", and "DREAMING WAR" by Gore Vidal are all essentials for all those who want some real information from some very bright people and arent finding it on the boob tube.
I'm rambling im sorry, but i did have a point. If you have read these books or are involved in any sort of underground cultural movement (from hip hop to punk rock) you probably feel the same way I do about the rise of corporations and because of this feeling i have to agree with most of what "andy" says...I reflect on what has happened in my small town and i realize Im probably the closest thing to the typical definition of a terrorist in this town. Not because I want to go kill a cop, but for the mere fact that i agree to why he did it, and if i do the slightest thing protest or try to talk to him to try to understand what pushed him over the edge i no doubt will be followed and as a real cop from Red Bluff posted here earlier, i will have singled myself out as some one who needs to be watched and reported to the propper authorities............. I am a Pacifist. I am a believer in God, but not in a god that condemns people of other religions. I am a loving son of a single parent and a big brother. I have friends that are like family to me. I care about the world around me and i dont want to see us blindly led into armageddon because" the idiots have taken over"-to quote NOFX. But whats left to do? How can little old me possibly make a difference? For a dreadful moment I actually thought "HEY! What if I kill another cop on the anniversary of the Mobilio killing! Then the mainstream media would have to acknowledge it!" but alas im not ready to end my life for that cause or any cause. Instead I persevere with the hopes that if I keep making waves in my own little puddle, maybe, just maybe.... one day a tidal wave will cleanse the earth of all its evils and take me with it.
by Dungeon Master
Thursday Jul 31st, 2003 12:57 AM
Remember that time I told those cops that they all deserve bullets in their heads out on my front porch a couple months back?

Think I'm being watched?

I sure hope so!

Anyhow,I really would like to talk to this fellow myself as well.

It's great how everyone keeps telling him his rationalization for taking a "loving father away from his family" but he hasnt ever said yet himself.

I know from my friends that Mobillio was not a good guy and was not a swell fellow.

When a friend of mine was a freshmen in highschool Mobillio issued him a citation for possession of pot but he had found nothing on him,what a guy!

And yeah whatever did happen with that guy who got choked out and died by all those cops that night?

Hey who fucking cares right? He was druggy scum!
He deserved to die just like Andy does!

If God is the only one who is allowed to judge then why do we have a judicial system cops etc. etc. that can decide to take a life from someone.

Eat bullets hypocrites.
by AP
Wednesday Nov 19th, 2003 7:36 AM
One day at a time
Kimberly Bolander

Published: November 16, 2003 in News
If you're going

A 24-hour vigil in memory of Red Bluff police officer Dave Mobilio begins at noon Tuesday in downtown Red Bluff's Cone Kimball Plaza.

What: Candlelight vigil

When: 5:30 p.m. Tuesday

Where: Bethel Assembly of God Church, at Luther Road and Mill Street


RED BLUFF -- His awful Tabasco soup. His surprises of Great Dane puppies and motorcycle getaways. The image of children gleefully hanging from his brawny cop's arms.

Recollections of her slain husband, Red Bluff police officer Dave Mobilio, bring a warm glow to his widow's face.

"The happy memories outweigh the other part," Linda Mobilio, 30, said this week.

Nearly a year has passed since a hiding gunman shot Dave Mobilio as he refueled his patrol car. He died in the early morning of Nov. 19. He was 31.

In the year since, Linda Mobilio has attended plenty of tearful memorials and made many an honorary speech.

She has mourned alongside her husband's fellow officers and with her son, Luke, now 2 years old.

"We've done so many things that have just been, in essence, sad," she said, sitting in a Red Bluff restaurant the couple had often enjoyed.

Instead of tears on the anniversary of his death, Linda Mobilio is ready for joy, she said.

"I do feel a shift," she said of her grieving, and she hopes a 24-hour vigil that begins Tuesday will focus on celebrating Dave's life.

She is thankful for the nearly seven years she was married to a fun, generous man, and grateful for the child so much like his dad, she said.

Last November, Dave's death immobilized her, she said.

She took a year off from teaching at Evergreen Elementary School in Cottonwood. The excitement she had shared with him -- of building a house on property in Red Bluff -- dissolved. Three weeks after his death, her move to Chico to be nearer family members was an act of survival, she said.

"I was not functioning," she said. "I had the (police) chief putting together Luke's crib. I was, seriously, just like a zombie."

Mobilio guessed it took three months to regain control of her life, she said, sitting beside best friend Liz Murphy.

"No. I'd say longer," Murphy said gently.

In Mobilio's home, photographs of Dave are displayed everywhere. She often tells her son the stories behind each snapshot.

"I've told him the stories so many times that I think he thinks he was there, that the memories are his," she said.

The family's chronicles include the day Dave came home with a shiny Harley-Davidson motorcycle, Mobilio said.

"He said, 'It's OK, I didn't buy it. I just rented it. Grab a change of clothes -- we're going,'" she said.

And the time he called his wife while she was teaching and told her to gather her students in a circle on the floor. He walked in holding the new Great Dane puppy he had bought on a whim.

"That was a David moment," she said.

Dave, a D.A.R.E. officer, was beloved by school kids, especially the sixth-grade class he spent one afternoon a week with at Sacred Heart Parish School. He took a long time deciding to take on that role, unsure that he would do a good enough job, his wife said.

Yet he was a natural; she remembers crowds of children swarming his D.A.R.E. car and clinging to his big arms.

"David just had a charisma about him," she said. "Kids would flock to him. They could just connect with him."

Some things Mobilio never expected to miss, like having the scent of Dave's special Tabasco-noodle-onion-salt concoction infusing their kitchen.

"I really miss his Tabasco soup," she said, smiling. "Oh yeah, it was horrible. But I would love to taste it," she said.

Every so often, Luke will ask to watch the home video the couple made while on vacation in Maine, before he was born.

"He will, out of the blue, say 'I miss my dad,'" she said.

The little boy knows his father was badly hurt while doing his job -- and nothing more, his mother said.

She takes him to the cemetery to visit Dave's grave, where the toddler likes to lay rocks he's found. After a visit to a pumpkin patch this fall, he left a small pumpkin on his father's marker.

When other kids' dads are around, Luke sometimes forgets why his isn't there, Mobilio said.

"And I have to say, 'He's in heaven.' That's the hard part. That's the really hard part," she said.

In many ways, Mobilio said, she will be glad to put this first year without Dave behind her.

"Once I get through Wednesday, all the firsts will be over. The first Christmas, the first birthday," she said.

The next big hurdle will be testifying in the trial for the Washington man charged with her husband's murder.

Prosecutors have said they will seek the death penalty for Andrew Mickel, 24, who has publicly admitted responsibility for shooting the officer to protest police tactics. He has pleaded innocent. An undecided change-of-venue motion is holding up the case, Mobilio said. She hopes it will not take years to go to trial. She doesn't want Luke to remember it, she said.

Meanwhile, the community of Red Bluff has been extremely generous and supportive, Mobilio said. She hasn't ruled out someday building on the land she still owns there, she said. Nor does she know yet if she's ready to return to teaching, but she wants to reassure people she and Luke feel blessed, even in their loss.

"We're OK. We are still grieving, we are still coping with it, and we're OK," she said.

Reporter Kimberly Bolander can be reached at 225-8339 or at kbolander [at] redding.com.

http://archive.redding.com/story.asp?StoryID={83F15577-13FB-425B-8AB1-FED2F8EB94EB}
by 1
Tuesday Apr 12th, 2005 6:40 AM
I Hope he's found NOT GUILTY! !
by Recon Bravo
Tuesday May 3rd, 2011 7:18 AM
This shit is still crazy to me.

I knew the guy back in the Army. Same team, and even my roommate. What a cock. I'll tell you one thing. Dude was smart. Strange, yes, but smart. Ranger, Airborne and Air Assualt graduate. He always told the team that he was going to school after he was finished with the Army. What a surprise.

Sooooo I've learned a lesson from all this. You never know the people you know now, if they're going to do something great in the world, or if they're going to commit great evil. You never know, or with me (I'm confidently speaking on behalf of the team), never suspect.

Wow Mickel....... YOU'RE FUCKIN' CRAZY!!!!!!!!!!!
by Mike Lane
(1984lane [at] gmail.com) Wednesday May 29th, 2013 9:29 AM
Either that or you're a murderous goon who is now trying to make his acts look "righteous." (You failed miserably.) And why do I think everyone active in the causes you mention would agree with me? Anyone who buys your dribble is as dumb as you. (Hmmm. Maybe this means those activists will believe you!) And don't mention God. Using Him to advance your lies will just piss Him off. You aren't "incorporated" but, thankfully, you are 'incarcerated."
by JESSE BARRETT MILLS
Tuesday Jun 4th, 2013 7:20 AM
if andrew was anti war, why didnt he kill a military commander instead of a random cop? in theory, wouldnt that save the lives of thousands of Iraqis? i also agree with some of the other posters that this could be some fbi operation. it seems similar to the sikh shooting in wisconsin, the holmes cinema shooting, dorner, virginia tech shooting, oklahoma boston bombers, sandy hook, and some of the other suspicious ones. some other things that dont add up is, why is this guy, from a comfortable background, who had good grades in school so interested in leftism?