no left wing anti-semitism

Arabs are Semitic as well, and there should be NO anti-Arab anti-Semitism tolerated whatsoever from anyone.

I think part of the problem is that some pro-Israeli Jews have a habit of labeling anyone who criticizes or opposes Israel as "anti-semitic," since Israel is the Jewish state. According to this logic, an attack on Israel is an attack on all Jews.

At the same time, it is evident that not all Jews support Israel. Therefore, it is possible to speak out against Israel without being guilty of blanket hatred against every Jew on the planet.

We must also keep in mind that Arab peoples matter just as much as Jewish people. This site is full of posts that attack the humanity and identity of Arab peoples. Such attacks are evil, no matter who they're against.

so
1. Criticism of Israel does not make one anti-semitic
2. Attacks against "The Jews" domake one anti-semitic.

Does this sound reasonable?

Exactly--I completely agree with the two points. I am already seeing signs of anti-Jewish right wing activity attaching itself to the pro-Palestinian cause and so we need to be very clear about positions.

Thanks.

I think you'll find most of the anti-semetic material is being posted by persons who what to make it appear that IMC is populated by anti-semetic reactionaries. More than a few are warbloggers and regular posters to right-wing message boards, where they brag about how they are 'bringing those commie punks down' (to quote one rather sick individual).

Troll bait...that's all it is.

When I type fast and don't bother to proofread.

me bad spelling, sorry.

ack.. I meant 'plus, stand by them and pretend to be progressives/left' in my comment above.

anyway, yes, it seems to be a trend that the most embarrassing fools are the ones who have purchased bullhorns and bring them to events and act like they're the leader, and to an outside observer it can give the mistaken impression that there is a whole group of total nuts going by. It isn't the case with all people with bullhorns, but it happens too often. I remember being at the LA democratic convention and I would find myself behind various communists with bullhorns, and it would make me want to run away before someone I knew saw me or saw a photograph which would make me look like I agreed with them. But really, what can you do? It would violate various principles of free speech that most of us agree to, to take away their bullhorn batteries. The same applies with groups such as the IAC which seem to be the organizer or leader of big general events such as the Bush inauguration protest , or the thing tomorrow (and this is usually the case because those groups actually did do organizing work). there are not 20,000 people who support the worker's world party, but it would seem to the uneducated members of the press that we all are under that banner. that is why the Reclaim the Streets sideshow is such a good thing.

Unfortunately I'm not talking about anti-Jewish comments on Indymedia (yeah, those people are nutjobs) but conversations with progressive activists who are making the mistake of talking about how the Jews this and the Jews that. ( The Jews are bombing Palestine, etc.) There was also anti-Jewish (Not anti-Israel/Sharon) comments at an SFSU speech a few weeks ago. I confronted an activist about it afterwards and she said that she was relieved that the guy made those comments, because he "said what many of us are thinking but afraid to say." (!)

But hopefully this will get nipped in the bud if we insist on distinctions.

I agree that it is difficult to address this when pro-Sharonites are charging all pro-Palestinian activists with anti-semitism. What a sloppy tactic!

Too many Jewish liberals use the dreaded anti-semite" label to silence "Zionist" critics. It may work on the feeble must be politically correct liberal crowd----but it doesn't hold any water with me. Stop hiding behind a this tripe and call upon your Zionasi racists to stop hiding behind the halocust while they engage in their own genocide/halocust. If you were as concerned about the Zionists and their evil ways you wouldn't be posting this victim crap. Go after the real aggressors, not the imagined ones. If i'm anti -Nazi am I also anti German? Get a life.

Now we know why your Mama named you Stop Whining. Nobody was whining til you showed up.

This is actually a sensible and civil discussion, an attempt to disentangle confusing tactics from positive discourse. Your message, which comes packaged so brightly in a mass attack on Jews, is exactly the kind of thing that we're talking about.

Exemplary, dahling.

Indymedia tends to be knee-jerk and the postings on the Palestine problem have an anti-jew tilt. just the way the Palestinians want it.

What an absurd racist comment. Mike is probably one of the jerks who try to kill free speech by tossing the anti-Semitic name calling around.

Most of the people in Israel who support the murderous and inhumane occupation or the Palestinians are Jews. According to latest polls in Israel, 70% of the polulation support the Sharon apartheid policies.

What does this say about all Jews? It is not a pretty picture. This will lead to more hate against the Jews, just as 911 has given us more hate against fundamental Muslims.

what does this say about all jews??! it says nothing. we only look to make generalizations about entire religious/ethnic/ and racial groups when we have some kind of problematic discriminatory ideology behind it.

how depressing.

that was what i was originally trying to address and that is exactly what's happened here. it's very dangerous logic.

for anyone who caught my drift and responded in kind--who understands the complexity of this situation and can still be pro-palestinian, anti-Sharon, anti-occupation--thank you in advance. see you tomorrow at the RTS party...

I have to agree there is anti-"Jewish" sentiment among some progressives. Although, knowing these people, I think it is just lazy semantics. They say, "The Jews this and the Jews that", when they really mean "the Zionists." Don't be too hard on them. These are human rights activists who, I am certain, would have been those few who would have felt the pain of Jews during the Third Reich and risked their lives saving them. Because we feel the suffering of the underdog, the Palestinians (and they most certainly are), does in no way mean we harbor hatred for those who practice the religion of Judaism.

Jews are especially sensitive to criticism, and I understand why. But you simply have to stop this perpetual feeling of victimization. Despite the horrendous attacks on your civilians, occupation and humiliation of a people will never give you peace. Never. I mean Never. You are only making yourselves more vulnerable. Peace will only come with justice. As I understand it, many Israelis and the Jewish diaspora have no clue what the Israeli government is actually doing to the Palestinians. I think it is time to find out and imagine if this was done to you. Wasn't it Ehud Barak who, when asked what he would do if he was a Palestinian, remarked that he would be a terrorist? Think about this with reason and not emotion, please.

just the way the Palestinians want it??? Mike--now you generalize about an entire group of people too. We are not in agreement and you are inflaming the discussion while appearing to agree with those of us who were trying to make some important distinctions.

Karen and Mike--you are working from the same logic here and it is very dangerous. You are both generalizing about entire groups as a derogatory tactic.
rule #1--talking about religious/ethnic/ racial groups in general is a way of denigrating them. let's talk about political ideologies instead--the right wing israelis, Hamas, etc.

FYI cana-- I am not Jewish. Imagine that.

But I am taking political positions about how to avoid anti-semitism.

Thanks for the pep talk.

Well my beef with certain Jewish people is that they act, just because of the holocaust, that they are the only people who have EVER truly suffered throughout history. Its true! They act as if the world owes them something. I'm part polish. And the polish culture came VERY close to being wiped out by Russian and German armies. Plus, nobody cries out bigotry whenever somebody makes a polish joke. But do I bitch? Do I make a big scene? No. I take it in stride. Look at the Armenians. A million killed by the Turks during WW1. Where is the outrage over that? 3-5 million Vietnamese killed during three decades of French-American occupation! Where is the outrage?

Touche. I hear you. But hear me also.

"3-5 million Vietnamese killed during three decades of French-American occupation! Where is the outrage?"

Jesse, whuffo' ain't thar enny outrage? Ah tell yo' th' reason whuffo'. On account o' slopehaids, unlike them thar kikes, ain't th' chose ones, yo' dum polack.

Well, well are we at Indymedia are being debriefed on the CORRECT rules of the "We are the only victims" club. I would appreciate it if we at In could also be schooled on the CURRENT-- Zionist "holocust"---taking place. And what about the Gypsies, American Indians, Cambodians, East Timorians, Vietnamese, and all other groups who have suffered needlessly? Oh, I forgot they don't have the same access to the media enjoyed by the Zionists. Yet, we surely agree that they too area as valuable as a Jewish death in vain...don't we?

Well, well are we lucky. All Indymedia participants are being debriefed on the CORRECT rules around the "We are the only victims" club. Never say this always say that, bla bla, bla. I would appreciate it if we could also be schooled on the CURRENT-- Zionist "holocust"--- and how shall we refer to IT and it's racist perpetrators? And if you insist on history, what about the Gypsies, American Indians, Cambodians, East Timorians, Vietnamese, and all other groups who have suffered needlessly? Oh, I forgot they don't have the same access to the media enjoyed by the Zionists. Yet, we surely agree that they too are as valuable a people, who deserve to be remembered ...don't we? Let's not let any people or media get away with the lie that their groups suffering was or is greater than others who have suffered, even if it's only by implication. While were at it, lets all agree no group will be allow to hide behind their suffering and use it as a shield to excuse, justify, or deflect criticism for current or past attrocities.

Your typical sexualized childhood imagery of pissed beds and puppeted hands reveals your subconscious, self-incriminating fear that you are less qualified to speak than the mass of people whom you are blanketing in blind epithet with every keystroke. I'm sure your boss doesn't know he's paying you to waste our time, and for the sake of the mental health of the community, this is your doctor urging you to "bugger off."
Okay?