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[video] VisionTV: Reasonable Doubts: the truth about 9/11-- featuring Mike Ruppert
by truthcapturer ( audience [at] visiontv.ca )
Saturday Mar 16th, 2002 12:42 PM
9/11 Roundtable Reasonable Doubts: Do we know what really happened on September 11th? A special roundtable edition of Mediafile. VisionTV Insight: Mediafile host Barrie Zwicker raised a number of questions – and eyebrows – in a series of controversial commentaries suggesting the official narrative for the events of Sept. 11 was "frankly implausible." Apparently, he wasn’t the only one with serious doubts.

Reasonable doubts: The truth about 9/11

Watch this RealVideo (53 min 12 sec in length)

Description:

VisionTV Insight: Mediafile host Barrie Zwicker raised a number of questions – and eyebrows – in a series of controversial commentaries suggesting the official narrative for the events of Sept. 11 was "frankly implausible." Apparently, he wasn’t the only one with serious doubts.

The debate broadens in a special hour-long Mediafile roundtable featuring author, lecturer and whistle-blower Michael Ruppert on Thurs., Mar. 14, 9 p.m. and 11 p.m. ET. Executive producer Rita Deverell moderates, as Ruppert faces a panel including journalist-educator Peter Desbarats, former Conservative Solicitor General Ron Atkey and Phyllis Creighton, a member of the General Synod of the Anglican Church of Canada and a board member of Science For Peace.

Ruppert, a former LAPD narcotics investigator who claims to have discovered the CIA trafficking in drugs in 1977, uses government documents, insider books and reports, congressional records and mainstream press reports to further his hypothesis that the American government was warned about the Sept. 11 attacks. The editor and publisher of the From the Wilderness newsletter (a reference to John the Baptist) was among the first to be publicly critical of a number of transparent flaws in the official story presented by the U.S. government. He is now a popular lecturer on the college circuit and he spoke at the University of Toronto earlier this year.

Desbarats is the former Dean of Journalism at the University of Western Ontario. He sat on the Commission of Inquiry into the Deployment of Canadian Forces to Somalia and later was appointed as the Maclean Hunter Chair of Communications Ethics at Ryerson University.

Ron Atkey, Q.C., was a former minister in the government of Joe Clark. From 1984-89, he was the first chairman of the Security Intelligence Review Committee, the agency responsible for CSIS.

Creighton is an ethicist who serves on the Health Canada board on reproductive technologies. She is a council member of the International Peace Bureau, the oldest peace organization in the world. She was a member of the group that produced Just War? Just Peace!, an educational resource for the Anglican and Lutheran churches.

VisionTV Insight examines the moral, ethical and spiritual dimensions of current events. The hour-long program is broadcast Tuesdays and Thursdays at 9 p.m. and 11 p.m. ET. As well, VisionTV Mediafile, a half-hour edition airing Mondays at 10:30 p.m. ET, takes an alternative look at mass media.

Watch this RealVideo (53 min 12 sec in length.)

______________________________________________

More info on VisionTV's coverage of crucial questions surrounding the events of 9/11 can be found here.

______________________________________________

VisionTV: the Pearl Harbour and 9/11 Lies

Watch Barrie Zwicker's comments on the 6 month anniversary of 9/11. His comparison of the events of 9/11 and the allowed attack on Pearl Harbour is excellent!!

Stream with RealPlayer or download the RealMedia file (4.3megs).

______________________________________________

The first segment in Barrie Zwicker's commentaries "The Great Deception: What Really Happened on September 11th?" can be viewed with RealPlayer here.

by meeep
Wednesday Mar 20th, 2002 1:30 PM
will you please put this up in quicktime http progressive download or mps or some `open` media format so that those of us in the world with no real player can listen and see. QT is free to stream, so why not?
by Daniel
Wednesday Mar 20th, 2002 7:49 PM
ditto to that QuickTime request, if not, even Windows Media Player format(ugh) would work, as most people have that, and it is available for Macintosh, also, ...of course, the better choice, QuickTime, is available for Windows as well as Mac, also. hmm.
Thanks
by Richard
( RICH.1 [at] cwcom.net ) Friday Mar 22nd, 2002 1:53 AM
I have tried several times to watch the Mike Ruppert 911 debate many times using Realplayer. After about 5 minutes the sound becomes indecipherable. Have adjusted settings to no avail. Is there a text transcript available? Also why not do an audiofile of the program which may work better?
Rich.
by Louise Massie
( http://www.Louisemassie@hotmail.com">http://www.Louisemassie [at] hotmail.com ) Friday Mar 22nd, 2002 8:33 AM
How can I get a copy of this video?
by Man With A Vision
Friday Mar 22nd, 2002 10:37 AM
You don't need to get a copy of the video. Ruppert is lying wacko who pushes conspiracy theories only a lunatic would subscribe to. The VisionTV stuff is a bunch of New Age religious bullsh*t.

Read Chomsky's 9-11 if you want to learn the "truth," not these simpletons.
by JJ
Saturday Mar 23rd, 2002 10:44 AM
Man with no vision perhaps...
by Jeff Wilford
Saturday Mar 23rd, 2002 7:07 PM
Regardless of which version of the truth you wish to believe it is obvious that the official version si not quite of this reality!
by bob
Saturday Mar 23rd, 2002 11:13 PM
i've tried several times to veiw, but the player states invalid dns, tries to route through to a nonexistent tech support. pls, use another format for veiwing. i live in canada and somehow missed this. thanks.
by Elizabeth Kaup
Sunday Mar 24th, 2002 8:18 AM
Ditto audifile request - we don't have DSL and can't do video - and I want to share this with as many people as possible!!
by Meerkat
Monday Mar 25th, 2002 12:33 PM
Chomsky's cushy job at MIT would never permit
him to come out and say what he really does
or doesnt know. maybe if you actually listened to what Rupert says you would allow yourself to think.
by Perry Normal
Tuesday Mar 26th, 2002 1:32 AM
The basic version of Real Player is free. You have to just hunt around real.com for the free link. However, not all operating systems are supported so encoding the content as QT or as Flash 6.0/MX would be best.

"Reality" as most people understand it is the ultimate conspiracy. Mike Ruppert is not far out at all. If you want far out, study up about the Nazis, the occult, mind control technologies and the shadow government. We can either face the truth of our existence in all of its aspects, no matter how repugnant, or we can be livestock.
by A .
( noblesavage72 [at] hotmail.com ) Tuesday Mar 26th, 2002 1:36 AM
Great show....a MUST SEE for everyone.Mike Ruppert is great.....an eye-opening hour.Thank goodness for people such as Mike Ruppert and a ever growing chorus of others.Take the time for this one.....
by A Man With A Plan
Tuesday Mar 26th, 2002 10:01 AM
Yeah, so we all know that the official story is BS. What are we going to do about? Sit around and discuss it? Maybe send a letter to our congress?
by Eric
Tuesday Mar 26th, 2002 10:47 AM
<Yeah, so we all know that the official story is BS. What are we going to do about?>

I tell you what I'm gonna do. Support my President and government in this war.

These idiots on this video are opportunists that offer no viable answers and specifically blame no one. Blaming the government is bullshit. Name names. He doesn't. Name who benifited the attacks. He doesn't.
nothing but conjecture and BS heresay.


by Manchrian Candy Date
( snowmance [at] yahoo.com ) Tuesday Mar 26th, 2002 10:54 AM
Hundreds of thousands of children dying of dysentary in Iraq.
Nicauragua put in ruins. A slaughter in Panama. KLA drug lords running rampant in Europe.
Think of what is happening in Macedonia. Kosovo. Palestine and on and on. Americans will "do nothing" because we don't care. We don't care because we have been culturally and intellectually labotomized by corporate consumer brainwashing. There was a massive uprising against the WTO in Seattle, but the powers that be made it look like a bunch of out of control acid head anarchists, instead of a police riot. Everything is swallowed whole. We can blame "the media" or the "state of journalism" only so much, because they are really only vendors who ultimately dispense what people demand. The majority of people do not want to know what really happened on 9-11 anymore than they want to know what happened in Florida. As long as our imperial wars remain relatively antiseptic where we can pulverize entire nations and lose only a few dozen troops, people will go along with it as long as they don't have to pay 2 bucks for a gallon of gas. Danny Casolaro, the San Jose Mercury Journal....the truth is out there, indeed, but there simply isn't enough profit in it anymore than there is enough soul left in our dying democracy to demand it. It is not a matter that people can't believe it...they do not want to see it...most rational people know Bush is a spoiled rich boy lacky and a pimp for big oil. Millions are hiding. Just like they did in Germany in the late '30's. I knew 2 non jews who went to the camps for resisting National Socialism in the wake of Cristal Nacht. Who among us has such courage? It think it has to go even farther before it breaks, before people begin to spontaneously take to the streets. But by then it may be too late if it isn't already...hell...it was probably too late in 1939.
by Eric
Tuesday Mar 26th, 2002 11:21 AM
Well then strap a few sticks of dynamite to your chest and run in to the enemy's ranks! Show us your courage! Be martyr for your cause.

Sackless wonder.
by David
Tuesday Mar 26th, 2002 11:48 AM
Yes I'm a brainwashed American who believes in my govt. and will do anything they tell me to as long as my cushy lifestyle isn't interupted by those terrorists from over there. Don't worry they will come knocking again and our govt. protected lifestyle is partly to blame no doubt about it !!! Trust your intuition buddy, but not your govt. !
by David
Tuesday Mar 26th, 2002 11:48 AM
Yes I'm a brainwashed American who believes in my govt. and will do anything they tell me to as long as my cushy lifestyle isn't interupted by those terrorists from over there. Don't worry they will come knocking again and our govt. protected lifestyle is partly to blame no doubt about it !!! Trust your intuition buddy, but not your govt. !
by Eric
Tuesday Mar 26th, 2002 11:58 AM
I think that's what I'll do.

I certainly don't see you idiots offering any reasonable solutions. So sit there and froth over how unfair life has been to you, sob to your neighbor about it, and blame the government (for lack of a better and more viable flunky). You're pathetic.
by MKULTRASLIMFASTCASUALTY
Tuesday Mar 26th, 2002 1:00 PM
This country is supposed to be founded upon democratic principles. One of the pillars of democracy is open debate. The criticism offered in the lines above does not address either the origin of 9-11 or the consequences of the Administration's response. Our nation is ruled by an oligarchy that has grown increasingly distant not only from the population en masse, but from the fundamental principles of the republic. Whether one is predisposed to believe that our leaders are acting in our best interests or not, I doubt that any rational person would view them as being infallible. It is absurdly ironic to me that someone who dares to question the official version of events is called an opportunist while at least half of the Bush Administration is composed of former executives of companies like Chevron and Bechtel and these people stand to potentially reap huge personal benefit from the construction of a pipeline through Afghanistan. Our founding father's created this country because they simply refused to tow the line. Hitler solidified his power grab by burning the Reichstaag and blaming it on foreign elements. Putin engineered the debacle in Chechnya for the purpose of solidifying his personal power base. One cannot deny the opportunism of the Bush administration in the unfolding of these events. We spent 30 billion dollars on "anti-terrorism" in the year before 9-11. When Bush was "elected" president FISA's for Saudi's living in the US were all but impossible for the FBI to obtain. Consider this: Bush's father has been on the payroll of an investment group (The Carylyle Group) that was heavily invested in by the Bin-Laden family. No one disputes this FACT, yet no major news organization finds this of interest. I am sorry, but it doesn't make sense. The 19 identified hijakers used false identification to get on the planes...so how did anyone know it was those individuals on those planes. I remember they said they had a picture of Atta in the SeaTac airport in Seattle. And we never hear anything about who these guys really were, what was Atta's relationship to Egyptian intelligence? One should have a right to ask such questions. This is the United States. And yes, the brainwashing has run deep. But it is like Eleanor Roosevelt said, no one can take advantage of you unless you let them. So, if a person chooses to swallow all this Rupert Murdoch/O'Reilly Factor mind wash...that is their choice. But when we stop asking why, or worse, stop allowing people to ask why, or how - then we no longer live in a Democracy. No. We live in a country where the executive jurist, a man who lost an election against a dead man, throws robes on statues so as not to be identified with their nakedness. We live in a land where our Cheif Executive waves at Stevie Wonder and asks Charlotte Church what state Wales is in. We live in a nation that is outraged when Danny Perles is killed, but raise hardly a murmer when Washington Post reporters are threatened to be shot if they attempt to investigate what the Pentagon claimed was the killing of top Al Qaeda/Talliban people, but just turned out to be routine collateral damage. We live in a country that has sworn not to repeat the mistakes of Viet Nam, which means that the American People, now, more than anytime in history, have to be protected from the Truth. If speaking out against this makes one an opportunist, then call me one. If simply excercising one's right to question the official line makes one any of the insults you care to hurl, then go ahead. But just remember one thing, there will ultimately be very little footing when it comes time to trod on the Constitution, and that is where, as ignorant as we are, we will draw the line and expose this rapacious cabal. Someone said to me yesterday, "well, I dread to think what it would have been like if Gore were president on 9-11". Unbelievable. No, I don't think Gore could have made 4 TRILLION dollars disappear nearly as quickly as Bush (and that was pretty much accomplished before September. Rather than point out any fallacy, those who resort to invectives merely expose the depth of their own ignorance. But it's like the devil's greatest trick, he gets you to believe he doesn't exist. It's like the brainwashed are first brainwashed into not believing that they are brainwashed or that brainwashing even exists and those who talk about it are "conspiracy nuts." Well, fine then, but just ask Daddy Bush what one of his sons was doing planning to have dinner with John Hinckley's brother the day after Reagan was shot. That is a fact. Neil Bush admited in on camera. Just ask yourself why Prescott Bush was held accountable by congress during WWII in violation of the Trading With The Enemy Act (He and the Harrimans helped finance the Nazi Brown Shirts). Ask yourself these questions before you go calling others opportunists, and if you can't, then get someone to blow in your ear quick, because you obviously need a refill.
by Charles
( coincidences99 [at] hotmail.com ) Tuesday Mar 26th, 2002 1:23 PM
I would also like a copy of the round table interview discussing the oddities connected with September 11th. I also am experiencing troubles with downloading the interview.

Could somebody send me either the audio or video file of this discussion?

Thanks

Coincidences99 [at] hotmail.com
by Eric
Tuesday Mar 26th, 2002 1:26 PM
<One cannot deny the opportunism of the Bush administration in the unfolding of these events. >

How dare you spew your libelous drivel and blame him for these attacks. I don't mind you attacking me, but have some respect the victims, the American people (that adamantly support him), and the man himself you fucking lowlife loser.

<But when we stop asking why, or worse, stop allowing people to ask why, or how>

Noone has impeded your freedom of speech. Go ahead, ask why all day long if you like. Obviously you have no children because if you did you wouldn't drone on and on and on about "Why...why...why daddy? why can't I go outside and play? why?" Because I'm the parent and I said so.

At some point you'll have to GROW UP and start answering some of these "why and how" questions for yourself. So noone is saying don't question it, but if you are going to, then be prepared to offer reasonable explanations. Not conjecture and heresay just to stir shit up.

<As for the rest of you soapbox speech>

For Christ's sake end the mindless ranting and get to the point!

by Eric
Tuesday Mar 26th, 2002 1:35 PM
By the way, MKULTRASLIMFASTCASUALTY, where in the hell do you get all these obscure conspiracy theory facts from? The internet? For God's sake man, don't believe everything you read on here! Talk about CNN and Fox News being biased!

State your sources so we can all be as enlightend as you are!
by karl
Tuesday Mar 26th, 2002 2:36 PM
The lack of sources doesn't invalidate the facts as they exist. Unfortunately, there are people who have been so brainwashed and dumbed down into believing what they are told that they rise up in defense of the very people/groups involved in cabal's to enslave the world's population.

You might think it is BS. That is certainly your choice. But it doesn't mean it is not occurring. You simply have chosen, for whatever narrow-minded reasons - to ignore historical fact and current events. Your ignorance is demonstrated by your foul-mouthed expletives and arrogant viewpoint. Taking such a hard-line position is not only impractical, it is stupid.

Success today is only guaranteed by taking advantage of networking. The power of networking is inproved by realizing that it is a very small world and you never know whom someone you meet might know. It is the person who someone else knows who might be the instrument to your success. So, being so reactionary and rude is a sure-fire way to cut your own throat, so to speak. But, again, it is your choice. Do what you want.

Karl
by ColdWarriorGoneBad
Tuesday Mar 26th, 2002 2:55 PM
Most anything mentioned above can find it's inital source in the AP (that means, Associated Press) or even such bastions of free speech as Fox News. I cast dispersions on Mssr. Bush because he has surrounded himself (or should I say been devoured by) criminals. And I do have children, old boy. One of them is 15 and asked me how dropping bombs on Afghanistan will stop terrorism. I can't give her an answer. I can't say..."well, honey, it's because that dirty rotten sob Osama bin Laden, and we have to kill him." I can't say that because all of a sudden he is a non entity. No one in the administration talks about him anymore...nor Mullah Omar. And anyway, I wasn't BLAMING Bush for the attacks, I was just saying he has taken advatage of it, in a way that only Karl Rove could truly understand. POLITCALLY speaking. Why you have to attack me personally, is standard. By the way, the Taliban was in Sugarland in August. If you don't know where Sugarland is I'll give you a hint, it is the same place where Enron whistle blower Cliff Baxter shot himself in the head with a single round of rat shot. People don't usually do themselves that way, especially intelligent people with millions in the bank. What were the Taliban doing in Sugarland? Why don't you find out? Ask the questions for yourself. Do you know how much aid the Bush administration sent to the Taliban last year? Do you know what they were negotiating in Sugarland? Find these things out for yourself, if you think they are unconnected to what occured, then you need not feel so offended by statements such as I profer - you can write me off as a nutjob. However, if you can't admit that all is not as it may seem; then, I can't do it for you. I mean, it's like trying to argue the benefit of having fired plutonium laced artillery in Iraq. There is no logic, other than an apocalyptic one.
by brigg
Tuesday Mar 26th, 2002 3:00 PM
Karl says,

"The lack of sources doesn't invalidate the facts as they exist. You might think it is BS. That is certainly your choice. But it doesn't mean it is not occurring. Taking such a hard-line position is not only impractical, it is stupid."

Some of us prefer to live our lives based upon facts and not speculation. If you consider that 'hard line' and 'impractible', so be it. To believe something is occuring while having a "lack of sources" is stupid. So, who's taking a hard line?

He then states, "Unfortunately, there are people who have been so brainwashed and dumbed down...", "narrow-minded", "ignorance", "stupid", .... and then goes on to tell us how we shouldn't use "foul-mouthed expletives" or have an "arrogant viewpoint."

"So, being so reactionary and rude is a sure-fire way to cut your own throat, so to speak." Thanks, Karl. You're our example and our hero.
by Eric
Tuesday Mar 26th, 2002 3:03 PM
<The lack of sources doesn't invalidate the facts as they exist. >

No, but it invalidates the "facts" as they were presented.

<they rise up in defense of the very people/groups involved in cabal's to enslave the world's population.>

Gee this thing runs deeper than I thought. Guess I should open my mind and listen up!

<You might think it is BS. >

Yes. I do.

<But it doesn't mean it is not occurring. You simply have chosen, for whatever narrow-minded reasons - to ignore historical fact and current events. >

no, just conjecture and heresay.

<Your ignorance is demonstrated by your foul-mouthed expletives and arrogant viewpoint.>

Ok. So I'm ignorant, arrogant, foul-mouthed and stupid.
(I know you are but what am I?)

<Success today is only guaranteed by taking advantage of networking. >

I already consider myself successful. A direct result of hard work, and little help from anyone else. But thanks for your advice. I'll take it under consideration.

<So, being so reactionary and rude is a sure-fire way to cut your own throat, so to speak.>

And being a naysaying prophesier of false impending doom is silly.

<But, again, it is your choice.>

No shit, Dick Tracy? Thanks for nothin'.

Oh, by the way, the choice is yours too. Just thought I'd throw that in, maybe it'll help ya out!

Hahahahahahahaha, the choice is mine. Funny. Gotta write that down.

by Man With A Vision
Tuesday Mar 26th, 2002 3:47 PM

<Chomsky's cushy job at MIT would never permit
him to come out and say what he really does
or doesnt know. maybe if you actually listened to what Rupert says you would allow yourself to think.>

It was when I actually listened to Rupert that I allowed myself to think: "What a psycho this guy is."

As for Chomsky; I'm sure that his cushy job prevents him speaking his mind. After all, being an anarchist anti-imperialist is SO safe and conservative. If he wasn't living under the perpetual threat of censorship, he'd be a Maoist or a Moonie or something equally daring and radical.
by Megatherion
Tuesday Mar 26th, 2002 5:18 PM
What a come back! I dont think i agree but damn your good. Funny too!
by Joe Sixpack
Tuesday Mar 26th, 2002 6:00 PM
I worship our president. The fact that the SUPREME COURT APPOINTED him instead of ordering a recount in Florida tells me he must be important. And that makes him smart. And then he would know what's best for us too. He likes baseball and stuff. He's just like me. He even has the same friends from his Ivy League college and shortened stint in the Natl. Guard. His dad was even president also, so think of all the help he could lend in a time like this. It must be tough on poor W, trying to avoid hitting the bottle or maybe slipping into the old cocaine habit during these times of crises. Especially now that he's overseas. Having never held a passport, ole Georgie must be very excited about these new long trips. I'll bet he just runs up and down the isles of Air Force One. Well, I just wanted to excercise my GOD GIVEN RIGHT, to proclaim my allegiance to Mr Bush. Hell, i'd even pay more taxes to bomb all those brown skin evil doers back to the stone age.....or beyond! My flag flys high on my Ford Expidition's antenna, NIGHT AND DAY!! So send out the guard and round up any and all those who would dare doubt the wisdom of this grandest of plans. Or fail to kneel at the feet of our beautiful leader and keeper. Cast the heritics to the firey blazes of hell and damnation. Cause OUR GOD demands it, and it's good for the economy. Just like those tax rebates. Boy if Duh'bya hadn't done that we'd be in a depression or recession by now.
So stop questioning the official line as it's parrotted on all the major defense contractor/wall street owned liberal media. Fall in and salute your new globalized order. Sacrifices must be made. Wages will fall but Wall-Mart will always have jobs. And when your governer tells us we need mandatory imunizations, by god do your patriotic duty and get your shot. SACRIFICES WILL BE MADE.
by Alan in Ireland
Tuesday Mar 26th, 2002 7:41 PM
just a quick comment from a non-american, I've just found this site and find it reassuring to know that not all americans are ignorant, non-questioning idiots like Eric. I am a graduate in my mid 20's and to be honest don't follow international politics and current affairs as closely as i should, but even for someone like me in a foreign neutral country it is clear to see that the official line on 9-11 is a crock of shit.
I am inspired by the courage and strenght of guys like Mike Ruppert who take such a public stand against a country and administration, which from my point of view,seems to rule and control its people in a manner which is fastly becoming not dissimilar to those of Nazi German.
People of America - Do your own think.
by G. Laishley
Tuesday Mar 26th, 2002 7:47 PM
Hey there Eric ..... ya gotta calm down Buddy! You'll bust a blood vessel! Just take a deep
breath, switch off the computer, get down to the bar, crack open a cold one and WATCH THE GAME, secure in the knowledge that DUBYA LUVSYA!

Besides, these guys don't know beans - especially if they get their info off the internet! Everyone knows we get the straight goods from good ol' Combat News Network, right?

And these guys that insist on writing screeds of stuff - if McDonalds can get it all into a 60 second commercial, then why can't they? I don't have the time to pay attention for any longer than that.

Hey Buddy... I hear ya! You're not the only one going through tough times right now.

Not too ago, I myself heard an outrageous lie from the BBC (the supposedly most credible news source in the world) that the US Government told the governments of Russia, India, Iran that it was actually planning to attack Afghanistan in October 2001 at least three months before 9-11 happened.
Hey, but how far can we trust the Brits and their fag Prime Minister?
Check this lie out for yourself at:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1550000/1550366.stm

And then there's that totally untrustworthy SOB Zbigniew Brzezinski, (he was National Security Adviser to Jimmy Carter, and still one of the prime foreign policy makers in Washington) who not only claimed that he along with the CIA set up, financed and trained Osama Bin Laden and his holy warriors back in 1979, but wrote a book full of lies and half truths called "The Grand Chessboard" (Basic Books, 1997), in which he says that the US has a "Geo-strategic Imperative" (one of those ivory-towered fancy phrases for "need to invade and take over") to control the Caspian/Central Asian gas and oil fields.

And then those damned treacherous French get into the act, expecting us to believe that the CIA station chief in Dubai actually paid Bin Laden a visit while he was laid up in hospital there in July 2001, making no attempt to arrest, apprehend or assassinate him. This bit of outrageousness, cooked up by French Intelligence, was published in that slander rag "Le Figaro" on October 31 last year, and can be viewed at: http://globalresearch.ca/articles/RIC111B.html

Lies, damned lies, all of it!

At times like this, you should keep in mind the old Russian proverb:

"When the bear has your leg in it's mouth, THEN you know it's true."

So, until Homeland Security or the FBI/CIA pay you a call at 4 am one morning,
hey ... FUGETABOUDIT!

Ten Four, Good Buddy!
Gerry

PS: A high school teacher of mine once told me that if, when having a debate with someone, he starts getting pissed off, it's because he knows he's on shaky ground .....

by Finito
Tuesday Mar 26th, 2002 7:56 PM

This a word of support for those that *know* and have the analytical, inquiring minds which aid in producing an alternative network of well sluethed info. Fella's/Ladies; mediocrity rules, the great minds of many centuries have always been attacked, burn't, murdered, destroyed, maimed, undermined and any other manner of adjective irony you could muscle up, since day one. Take it as a compliment that when you try to broaden sheeples minds and they just can't seem to get past their oh-so linear, fact obssessed brainwashing - where anything *not* mainstream is a threat, where anything *not* substantiated and spoon fed by someone they can trust on the nightly news, is a threat - that *you* are in great company and moreover on the *right* track. It's all too easy to sit back and bathe in the glow of cynical stupidity and *not* look at the truth in the world around you and yet millions seem to pull it off with ease! There are always going to be people who, no matter what the truth is, just don't want to open their ears, eye's and minds, because let's face it, reality is a bitch. Who can blame them if on some deeper subconscious level they have decided to live on their knees until the sword falls, rather than die on their feet fighting for the very things they sadly believe they are defending by remaining loyal to the HIVE. Trying to educate sheeple to do a wolfs thinking is a fruitless activity, the indoctrination is so complete it doesn't bear mentioning. All I can say is that to those who know and continue to stay awake during the Big Sleep, you have my prayers, thanks and support and to those who prefer to nap, my sympathies but you get what you ask for.

Finito...
by frank fish
Tuesday Mar 26th, 2002 8:07 PM
before you download the real media player read the last page of this months march-april PC World. the article explains how real player
is spyware
beware..
I also think Quicktime is the best alternative as it is free and works in
all browsers on both platforms.
by zw
Tuesday Mar 26th, 2002 9:26 PM
osama is an idiot. if he really wanted to piss the americans off he should of attacked the rockefeller center. cuz everyone knows david and his buddies from the council on foreign relations and the trilateral commission are the true leaders of the u.s. and the world. in the end the only country left on this world will be canada.
I AM CANADIAN!
by lonegunmen
Tuesday Mar 26th, 2002 11:01 PM
everyone who listens to regular media is a brainwashed baffoon....anyone who beleives half truths. mis associations and high improbabilities is a genuis.and smarter then anyone else? is that what you people wanna spew it over and over? what the hell makes you think because you listen to some underground alternative media that somehow your in touch with a higher plain of reality ? all these ruppert types are just as commercialized as cnn or fox.there out to make a buck just as bad as any other mainstream newsstation. why dont you take a look at how "conspiracy theories" are a billion dollar a yr business.
are any of these stories possible? well shit you know what even a broken clock is right twice a day. you spit out enough crap eventually youll hit on something.
i have a strong belief in asking questions and there is a definate need for it. although if you think for a second that you "really" know whats going on you need phsyciatric help. unless your in a "trilateral" meeting a bush meeting if youve sat down to dinner with osama maybe if youve sat in on a "shadow" govt meeting you might know more then anyone else.for you jerks to come out and say that someone is stupid and a sheep for listening to regular media ,while you sit around surfing the web at some disgruntled ex cia guy website trying to find the truth you look damned stupid.
if you cant accept all possibilities then you can accept nothing.your here trashing someone for calling it fluff or misinformation yet you REFUSE to believe that there any other possibility other then a big conspiracy.
this doesnt go out to all of you just the obnoxious fools who have more of a closed a mind then the people there trying to insult.
by User
Tuesday Mar 26th, 2002 11:15 PM
I want to agree with the post above that RealNetworks collects personal information. Please, visit http://grc.com/downloaders.htm to see the detailed analysis of packets and GUIDs involved.

This is not a call to become paranoid, yet care must be taken. After all, you wouldn't want to end up in a civilian labour camp for disagreeing or challenging the official version of September 11.

TO INDYMEDIA: Please, post another link in another format (MPG, AVI, MOV, MPEG, etc.) Be advised that RealNetworks still keeps denying the fact that it collects such information.

DO NOT USE REAL PLAYER FOR VIEWING CONTROVERSIAL INFORMATION! Visit http://grc.com/downloaders.htm to find out why!
by Danny Casolaro
Tuesday Mar 26th, 2002 11:39 PM
Not using RP wont help. You still have to contend with Carnivore, ECHELON, PROMIS, D.I.R.T., and B.O.

If you are an activist, you also have to contend with pen registers, phone taps, room bugs and human infiltrators.

If you are an effective activist, you have to contend with beatings, arrest (often on bogus charges) and occasionally, cold blooded murder.

Welcome to the new World Order.
by Mike
Wednesday Mar 27th, 2002 12:35 AM
The constant distortion of truth and the perpetual re-writing of history can only lead to destruction of humanity. Read the "Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion."
by Sophia
Wednesday Mar 27th, 2002 3:34 AM
I do not read or believe what name callers write or say. They are immature children. If you can't control yourself enough to use decent language then keep quiet or you negate your point. If I had to choose who to believe it would not be from a name caller with filthy language. This does not add any power to what you say. Truth, honesty, intellegence, wisdom, sincerity, caring, respect does.
by Eric
Wednesday Mar 27th, 2002 5:42 AM
Not!

Some of you have made some very interesting points and raised some very valuable questions. However, not ONE of you has offered ANY valuable answers to your own questions. You've only taken step one of the scientific method.

The best any of you can do is to claim there are massive conspiracies and the "government" is at the helm. One word for you...PARANOID. Have you ever tried to have a rational conversation with a schizophrenic? They think the whole world is conspiring against them too. Perhaps you folks need medication or therapy. Just consider it. Or maybe, there's some other possibility. Something like this one...

You like conspiracy theroies?? Heres one for you...

Maybe, just maybe, there's a cobal trying to get you to believe there's massive conspiracies afoot and the American government is to blame for all these unanswerable questions. Want a crumb of truth to back up what I am telling you...ok here it is. Right here on this forum. Did you watch the "reasonable doubts" video above? Here's my challenge to you...

Watch the above video. Listen to it and hear what is being said. Then read this...

http://www.africa2000.com/PNDX/theory.htm

Read it and study it. It's a lesson about psyops. That's right, Psychological Operations. The same sort of mind control the government has been using for decades. It's how they get you to accept propoganda as the God given truth. It's the brainwashing you all know is among us but can't quite put your finger on it. Yes, you're right, psychological tampering.

Now watch the video again and see how many of these tactics are employed by our speakers. I challenge you to try this. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong...but I think I'm right.

Asking questions is fine and dandy folks. But it's only half of what needs to be presented. Without a workable answer, you may as well be asking "So what really makes gravity work?" or "Hmmm I wonder why a proton is sooo much bigger than an electron, but they both have the same magnitude of charge?" Must be some great conspiracies there huh?
by StaR
Wednesday Mar 27th, 2002 7:36 AM
Here is a little background that should help explain how the actions of our governments are even plausible.

The American Empire

The Declaration of Independence was officially adopted on July 4, 1776. This was the creation of the CONFEDERATION known as the "United States of America". This confederation known as the "United States of America" was officially formed into a FEDERAL body on March 1, 1781. The confederation adopted the "United States of America" constitution in 1787 which guaranteed a Republican Form of Government

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THE ARTICLES OF CONFEDERATION
November 15, 1777

Courtesy of the U.S. Historical Documents Archive
http://w3.one.net/~mweiler/ushda/ushda.htm

This document may be freely downloaded and printed.
No copyrights attached.

To all to whom these Presents shall come, we the undersigned Delegates of the States affixed to our Names send greeting.

Articles of Confederation and perpetual Union between the states of New Hampshire, Massachusetts-bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia.

The Stile of this Confederacy shall be "The United States of America".

II Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this Confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled.
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A Law Dictionary by John Bouvier

CONFEDERATION, government. The name given to that form of government which the American colonies, on shaking off the British yoke, devised for their mutual safety and government.

2. The articles of confederation, (q. v.) were finally adopted on the 15th of November, 1777, and with the exception of Maryland, which, however, afterwards also agreed to them, were speedily adopted by the United States, and by which they were formed into a federal bod y, and went into force on the first day of March, 1781; 1 Story Const. 225; and so remained until the adoption of the present constitution, which acquired the force of the supreme law of the land on the first Wednesday of March, 1789. 5 Wheat. R. 420. Vide Articles of Confederation.
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A Law Dictionary by John Bouvier

REPUBLICAN GOVERNMENT. A government in the republican form; a government of the people; it is usually put in opposition to a monarchical or aristocratic government.

2. The fourth section of the fourth article of the constitution, directs that "the United States shall guaranty to every state in the Union a republican form of government." The form of government is to be guarantied, which supposes a form already established, and this is the republican form of government the United States have undertaken to protect. See Story, Const. §1807.
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The Constitution 1787

Article. IV.

Section. 4.

The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government,...
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This brings us to the year 1861. The year the CONFEDERATION known as the "United States of America" along with it's CONSTITUTION of 1787 DIED. Under the guise of a civil war, this was the day that the Republic that was the "United States of America", died at the hands of A. Lincoln, who seized power—without any lawful, constitutional authority WHATSOEVER—and set forces in motion that drove the South into a war it did not want, and could not win.

See, when the seven Southern states walked out of Congress March 27, 1861, the quorum to conduct business under the Constitution of 1787 WAS LOST. The only votes Congress could lawfully take, under parliamentary law, were those to set the time to re-convene, take a vote to get a quorum, and vote to adjourn and set a date, time, and place to re-convene at a later time.

Instead, Congress adjourned sine die , i.e., ‘without day.’ “An adjournment sine die—that is, without day—closes the session, and if there is no provision for convening the assembly again, of course the adjournment dissolves the assembly.”

Thus, when Congress adjourned sine die it CEASED to exist as a LAWFUL BODY. The only lawful constitutional power who could declare war on the South, was no longer lawful, or in session.

Congress did not reconvene until days later when it was re-convened under military authority of the Commander-in-Chief. To this day, Congress still sits by military authority of the Commander-in-Chief, and not as a lawful Constitutional body.

Congress knew the rules of parliamentary law and knew that it could have adjourned lawfully, but instead, chose a method that the Congress knew would DESTROY the law making power of Congress. In other words, the campaigns of the commercial speculators, banks, and others in Congress had been successful. The Constitution for the "United States of America" had CEASED to be the law of the land, and the President, Congress, and the Courts were now free to re-make the nation in its own image.

Thus, all the states who were parties to creating the Constitution CEASED to exist and new states were created in their place as Franchisees of the FEDERAL CORPORATION, so that a new Union of the United States could be created.

From that time on, all Presidents have ruled by Executive Order. Lincoln wrote only a handful of E.O.’s during his tenure. Executive Order No. 1, the first ever signed by a President was executed April 21st, 1861, and called up 75,000 militia. other E.O.’s are issued under the authority of the Commander-in-Chief by the Adjutant General, the Treasury, and others.

The point is, Lincoln had NO AUTHORITY to issue Executive Orders and he knew it. Thus, he commissioned a special code to ‘govern’ his acts under MARTIAL LAW. In fact, the Code merely justified his seizure of power. “The Lieber Instructions,” extended The Laws of War and International law beyond the borders of Washington, D.C., and for the first time brought foreign law onto American soil.

The United States government became the CONQUEROR and all states in the Union were thus re-formed as Franchisees of the Federal Corporation. The key to when the states became Federal Franchisees is related to the date when such states enacted the Field Code in law. The Field Code was a codification of the common law that was adopted first, by New York and by California in 1872.

This Federal Corporation was named the "District of Columbia". This CORPORATION was NOT created under the CONSTITUTION of the "United States of America", it was CREATED under Lincoln's MARTIAL LAW as the CONQUEROR of the CONFEDERATED states.

After Lincoln, a new type of government was born in America when the District of Columbia was incorporated in 1872.

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District of Columbia

Established by acts of July 16, 1790 (1 Stat. 130), and March 3, 1791. Corporations of Washington and Georgetown and levy court of Washington County abolished in favor of territorial form of government in 1871. Permanent commission government established July 1, 1878. District Government created as municipal corporation by act of June 11, 1878 (20 Stat. 102). Treated as branch of U. S. Government by various statutory enactments of Congress. District Government altered by Reorg. Plan No. 3 of 1967, effective Nov. 3, 1967. Charter for local government in District of Columbia provided by act of Dec. 24, 1973 (87 Stat. 774). (U.S. Government Manual, Appendix C.)
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"By the Act creating the District into one municipal Corporation, the new Corporation succeeded to the property of the two former ones, and also to their liabilities." District of Columbia v. Adolf Cluss (1881) hn. 3, 103 U.S. 705, 26 L ed 455.
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Ballentines Law Dictionary:

"District of Columbia. The seat of government of the United States, having an area of 69 square miles, situated on the Potomic River, on the border of Maryland opposite Virginia, and subject to the power of Congress to exercise exclusive legislation in reference thereto. 49 Am J1st States section 122. It occupies a unique position, being neither state nor organized territory in the usual sense of such terms, Hepburn v Ellzey (US) 2 Cranch 445, 2 L.Ed. 332. But it is a state as the word is used in reference to the making of treaties with foreign powers. Geofroy v Riggs, 133 US 258, 33 L. Ed. 642, 10 S Ct. 295.
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The District of Columbia is not a `state' within meaning of the constitution." U.S. v. Virginia 1805
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"Under Act of Congress of 1801, 2 Stat. 103, assuming the government of the District of Columbia in virtue of the cession from Maryland and Virginia, the laws of those states and the proceedings in their courts as parts of those laws were recognized within such portions of the district respectively, as originally were within the limits of the ceding states." U.S. v. Eliason, 41 U.S. 291, 16 Peter 291, 10 L Ed. 968
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"The corporation which 16 Stat. 419 created by the name of the District of Columbia succeeded to the property and liabilities of the corporations which were thereby abolished. District of Columbia v. Cluss, 103 U.S. 705, 26 L. Ed. 455
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The Lieber Code explicitly stated in Section I, Article 1., that:

“A place, district, or country occupied by an enemy stands, in consequence of the occupation, under the Martial law of the invading or occupying army, whether any proclamation declaring Martial Law, or any public warning to the inhabitants, has been issued or not. Martial Law is the immediate and direct effect and consequence of occupation or conquest.”

Lincoln imposed MARTIAL Law on America WITHOUT public notice. Americans could thus be arrested (falsely mustered), hauled into military tribunals, tried, convicted, sentenced, put in jail, have all their property seized, and put to death, without ever knowing the trials were in fact, military proceedings in court martial against civilians.

In such military courts no defendant has any Constitutional rights. The Code goes on to say in the same Section, Article 10. that:

“Martial Law affects chiefly the police and collection of public revenue and taxes whether imposed by the expelled government or by the invader, and refers mainly to the support and efficiency of the army, its safety, and the safety of its operations.”

And so in 1863, the I.R.S. was born to collect war reparations from the conquered peoples in the South. Later, F.D. Roosevelt went Lincoln one better when he extended the same UNCONSTITUTIONAL ACTS to all the states.

The Lieber Code then states in Section II, Article 31., that:

“A victorious army appropriates all public money, seizes all public movable property until further direction by its government, and sequesters for its own benefit or that of its government all revenues of real property belonging to the hostile government or nation. The title to such real property remains in abeyance during military occupation, and until the conquest is made complete.”

Under Martial Law, one’s title is a mere FICTION, since all property belongs to the military except for that property which the Commander-in-Chief may, in his benevolence, exempt from taxation and seizure and upon which he allows the enemy to reside. Now you understand why you are addressed by your "nom de guerre", your WAR name.

In the U.S. Titles and Codes, the District of Columbia can also be called, the “United States.” Why did the federal power need a corporation?

The answer is, first, martial law governments are—"at" law—styled as ‘fictional creations.’ Second, the doctrine of equal standing in law makes it clear that only parties of equal standing can communicate in law. The maxim of Law is; “Disparata non debent jungi—Dissimilar things ought not to be joined.” Third, since such governments are fictions, they can only deal with fictions and are thus, prohibited from re-creating lawful civil authority.

Only the people have the sole and exclusive right, power, and authority to alter, abolish, or create a Lawful Civil government. Therefore, since corporations are also fictions, they became the logical means through which the new government carried on its business. Notice however, the substance of the government is now gone, and it retains only the outward form and appearance. After Lincoln’s War ended and hostilities were declared at an end, the Lieber Code justified keeping martial law a secret. Part of the evidence for the continuation of martial law is seen in an address given by Andrew Johnson, Lincoln’s successor, in which he gives his reasons for vetoing the Reconstruction Acts.

“The veto of the original bill of the 2d of March was based on two distinct grounds, the interference of Congress in matters strictly appertaining to the reserved powers of the States, and the establishment of military tribunals for the trial of citizens in time of peace.” July 19, 1867

The nation was still under Martial Law and Congress knew it though the People have, from that day to this been IGNORANT of the fact. And, the U. S. is under no obligation to tell the People anything regarding their true status, nor to promote reconstruction of the Lawful civil authority. Welcome to the American Empire.

These actions of your CORPORATE government is mere deceit, which is a stratagem of war, and under International Law is legal. This is because under such law, commonly associated with the Laws of War, it is proper for the enemy to deceive his opponent in the field, until engagement is made. Thus, the importance of Roosevelt’s change in The Trading with the Enemy Act of 1917, and the reclassification of all Americans as belligerents under an emergency situation (actually a declaration of war).

Canadians find themselves in a very similar situation; i.e, MARTIAL LAW. PERSONS.

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From http://www.DetaxCanada.org

THE FRAUD OF THE CENTURY!

The BNA Act did not actually confederate the North American colonies as our history books have led us to believe.

The BNA Act was nothing more than the "command orders" from the British Crown to the Governor General as to how he was to govern the amalgamated colony called Canada. The preamble of the proposed BNA Act, wherein the statements on confederation (formation of a federal union) are found, was not part of the private member's bill that was passed through the British House of Commons in February 1867. The Act joined the four colonies as one colony. The Governor General, the corporation sole - in essence, the captain of the ship (Canada) was practically an absolute dictator, responsible only to the Crown of Britain through the British Board of Trade.

Eminent domain rested in the corporation sole of the Governor General, rather than in a Federal territory - as was the case with other dominions (colonies). The Canadian Parliament, one half elected, one half appointed and an instrument of the British Government was nothing more than an advisory body to the Governor General. The Roman personhood of the body politic called Parliament was derived from that vested in the corporation sole of the Governor General. Don't wish to believe me on this fact? The (British) Interpretations Act, 1889 clarified the fact that "dominion" was synonymous with "colony".

In 1893, The Imperial Parliament in London passed the Statutes Revision Act wherein Section 2 of the BNA Act 1867 was REPEALED. What was Section 2? It was the succession right of "successors and heirs" of Queen Victoria, the Kings and Queens of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland to become the Monarch of Canada after the death of Queen Victoria. Thus, it appears that ALL Kings and Queens of England who have reigned since 1899, Victoria's death, are PRETENDERS and HOAXES to the title "Crown in Right of Canada".

In 1931 Canada was oficially "decommissioned" as a colony of Great Britain by the Statute of Westminster(BR.); and, since no federal state/territory existed or was created to establish eminent domain, (Ottawa being a city in the Province of Ontario, not a Federal district), no provision was made to establish a Federal Government to replace the British appointed Governor General and his advisory body (the Canadian Parliament). Roman personhood ceased for the Canadian Parliament upon the cessation of the British Governors General.

Further, no constitution existed. Section 7 of the Statute of Westminster was inserted because the British Government recognized no Federal Government or Federal authority in Canada. All authority (sovereignty) and eminent domain reverted to the former North American colonies and the four provinces created out of the Hudson Bay Territory. This really meant "the People" of the Provinces, as provincial legislatures remained under the control of a fraudulent Lieutenant Governor, thus under the control of an ultra vires Federal Government and in the name of a foreign monarch. That status remains. The People of Canada have never assented to having the Crown of England as the Crown of Canada. There is no physical crown or throne of or in Canada.

ALL authority of the British Crown (Royal Prerogative) over any "dominion" or colony was relinquished in the 1931 Statute of Westminster(BR.) - if it even existed after the death of Queen Victoria in 1899. Executive and legislative authority was relinquished in Section 2, 3, and 4 ( plus Section 7 for Canada). All commercial control was relinquished in Section 5. All judicial authority was relinquished in Section 6. What then, is the supposed authority the English Crown has over any former colony - other than that which is purely ceremonial? Where is the authority of the Canadian Government(s) to use the personhood (Roman or Common Law) of the British Monarch as the basis of governing Canada and for the making of claims and the laying of charges against the Canadian People? I assure you, such DOES NOT EXIST!

There were no acts of the British Government or any lawful procedures whatsoever in Canada which converted the Federal Parliament into the Federal Government of Canada in 1931, or since. The present Federal Government is a puppet to a syndicate or cabal (consisting of mostly Montreal based financial elite) who seized the decommissioned (abandoned) ship, Canada, through the ancient international law of "right of salvage"; and, has no more status in law than that of a service club. Provincial Governments are also part of this scheme, they also being pseudo-Roman corporations and not responsible to the People who elected them. All true Roman corporations originate in the authority of the Pope of Rome as their creator. Neither the Pope; nor, any lineage of that authority bestowed Roman personhood upon the present Parliament of Canada. Modern Roman corporations are bestowed by the sovereign authority. Since, in Canada, sovereignty rests, and remains dormant, with the People of Canada, Parliament's supposed Roman personhood has not gained existence from that source of creation.

The original classification of the body of land which is now Canada to that of a ship (a Roman person) was a figment of imagination by the British Crown in Chancery. God's creation put the red race, the Amerind People on this land; and like all other People of the Earth - under His Common Law. Since most of Canada was not seized by military conquest, and therefore not made a possession by eminent domain under international law; and, since Canada certainly was not a ship, it was never an object of salvage subject to seizure by opportunists under international law. This leads to a suspicion that the present program of settling aboriginal land claims and establishing large areas of potentially resource rich land areas in Canada as "nations" will allow the "international bankers" to meanouvre these "nations" into indebtedness and eventual foreclosure. This will then, in the eyes of the International Courts, give over to the "international bankers" allodial title to resource rich lands that presently would be in disputed over title. This would deprive Canadians in Common of their sovereignty over this land known as Canada.
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As you see here, Canada is also OCCUPIED by a foreign crown CORPORATION under INTERNATIONAL LAW, the LAWS OF WAR. MARTIAL LAW. PERSONS.

Time to wake up people!!!!

StaR
by Mr. Jones
Wednesday Mar 27th, 2002 7:39 AM
I can't get mad at Eric, I have family and friends who say the same kind of things.
To Eric I would only say that Thomas Jefferson stressed the importance of the people being able to question their government. We have in the past few months seen tremendous disinformation. One of the worst examples of this is how the news media initially reported the Charles Bishop kamikazi run. This information was not being gathered by reporters, it was being fed to news agencies through security organizations.
This government is unusually secretive. An example was made very clear this week. A judge had to order the release of documents relating to the energy meetings Cheney had last year. Nearly half of the information they released was blacked out. The General Accounting Office is suing Cheney to release more information. This has never occured in the history of this country. Cheney claims executive privaledge saying that presidents have to have the right to speak with people candidly. Yet the week before the Bush administration released the text of conversations Clinton had with another head of state...a leader from another country. George W. has also all but rescinded the Presidential Papers act, meaning that much of the senisitive material from the Iran Contra era related to the activities of his father when he was VP will be further delayed. He also has to protect the likes of James Baker and John Poindexter who were both deeply involved with Operation Black Eagle that Bush Snr ran as vice president with his old CIA pal Felix Rodriguez. This is NOT an internet thing, Eric. John Tower had it in his report (then died in a plane crash). Cheney isn't claiming executive privaledge to protect some constitutional principle, he is claiming it to try and cover his political ass. Eric...what did Cheney do for a living before he was VP. Do you know what Halliburton is? Do you know that they violated the embargo against Iraq? Do you think it is just that nuns who brought penicilin and medical supplies to Iraq are arrested for breaking the embargo, while Cheney and his cronies continue to do business with Sadam? Eric...do you know who April Glaspie is? Do you know George Herbert Walker Bush had more to do with building up the regimes of Hussein and Mullah Omar and Osama Bin Laden than any single muslim? Do you know that Bush Sr. repeatedly denied he had ever met with Manuel Noriega and even continued to do so after the photo of him in the Panamanian Presidential Palace was released where he was sitting on the same couch with the dictator? Do you know that Neil Bush was a major player in the savings and loan scandals? Have you ever heard of Silverado? And what, pray tell, was Jeb Bush doing in Central America several weeks ago? Overseeing an election??? Who would want that man making sure their election was running just right?
What is my point? Well, it is true, you can't believe everything you see on the internet. You can't believe everything you see on CNN, Fox NBC etc. Not since Watergate, not since leading journalists became political celebrities. Not since the Washington Press corps started letting politicians attend their banquets. What's the point? How many people had their pulitzer prizes taken away from them because they lied? How many stories has Rumsfeld told that he has had to retract (or, I should say, had the Joint Chief of Staff retract for him)? Has it ever occured to you that maybe, just maybe, these guys don't know what they're doing? As far as I am concerned, they are handling this thing about as well as Janet Reno handled Waco. It is not a matter of being smarter than anyone. I don't know if what Ruppert is saying is true or not. I don't know if Eugene Hasenfus was telling the truth. But I do know W did not serve his full term in the Texas national guard. I do know that he and all of his brothers feel they can get away with anything. Look at Bush's daughters, falling drunk on the floor. Look at Jeb's daughter, writing her own prescriptions - 7 DUI's. Speaking of which, I do know that Bush and Cheney have at least three dui's between them. And I do know that I was not born with a silver spoon in my mouth and I never got one...not one DUI. These guys have all the power and prestige in the world, and they found themselves in positions they couldn't get out of. Ask yourself, why Bush had a whole new drivers license issued to him in Texas (number 0000005)? What is the point? The point is we are being lead by people who believe that the basis of their power is keeping secret the details of their activities. There is no accountability. Bush lied about knowing Ken Lay when the scandal first broke. He lied, on camera, just like Clinton, only he is lying about a lot more than the definition of sex. And ask yourself...what if they are trying to run this country and this economy like Lay ran Enron? Lay was like a messianic figure to these people. What is the point? If we continue on this road of unilateral interventions we will make the world our enemy. Only instead of having one PLO, or one IRA, or one Al queda, we will have many to deal with. And they won't all be muslims. Ask Nichols and McVeigh. Ask the people in the compound of Elohim not far from Oklahoma city.
Sorry if I writ too much, if it isn't a digestible sound byte. But I keep hearing about all this compassionate conservatism and wonder where it is? I have friends in NYC. One was in mid town when it happened. They conveyed a sense of horror tome that the news could not. More than anything else it was how could this happen?
I have a friend who works in the state department. There is apparently a huge power struggle going on between Rice and Powell. We have to ask ourselves what it is really about, and not resort to hurling insults at one another. We are all scared. But at the end of the day, I think my freedom of speech and right to know will do at least as much to save my ass as the Office of Homeland Security.
by Eric
Wednesday Mar 27th, 2002 8:05 AM
Again, you offer no explanations, only an inquisition.

What is soooo terribly wrong in all of your personal lives that you persist in this blame game? Has life been that unfair to so many of you? I can see the foreign nationals complaining, but the Americans??

I own stock in Halliburton, bought it $9 a share after the recent asbestos law suit results came out. It's now trading at $16 a share. Before the fact, it was trading at $26. I list it as a Strong Buy.

by Mungo Jerry
Wednesday Mar 27th, 2002 8:51 AM
I suppose if you had lived 60 years ago, you would have invested in the production of Zyklon-B, if it would have been a "good buy." I mean, if the Bush's and Herrimans can do it, why can't you? Too bad the Carlyle group is not a publicly traded company, you could invest in it! Gee, things are looking mighty good for that Crusader program, too, what company is it that is hoping to flush billions of money down the toilet on that one. Oh come on, I'm sure you know! The worlds biggest anti tank gun! America needs to be defended from all those tanks that will be pouring over the borders from Canada and Mexico! The military doesn't even want it! There's money to be made there, buddy. And how about all these contractors mudwrestling for those unmanned drones, buck or two or three to be made there, too, buddy! And how about investing in some mass producion of land mines, since you live in the ONLY country that refuses to ban their production. Then, using the old noodle, buy a bunch of outdated prostetics and sell them to the legless children in developing countries all over the world. And nows a good time to pony up and invest in all the new designer nuclear weapons Bushron wants. Gee, aint it funny that the Carlyle group had heavy investments in anti anthrax pharmaceuticals this past summer. Just a coincidence. Dang, wish I knew who made those daisy cutter bombs, bound to be a good ROI from them! Yuppers, lotsa "good buys" out there, Eric, all ya have to do is have your priorities straight! Don't look to blame anyone or ask any questions, no siree...to many good buys out there...uh, yeah, Gordon Gecko for President. United we stand! Free the markets now! But wait, what's that smell as I check my earnings statement...what's that smell? Underneath this good buy...oh dear...all that rotting flesh, get those cameras out of here! Hand that starving man an American flag now, tell him to wave it, we'll give him a cup of rice, make it two, or else we'll shoot him, do you think perhaps the only question is should Kabul be looking at the first Muslim Dysneyworld or should they go slow, and stick with the Six Flags? Place will really pick up once we get that damn pipeline through there. Shell casings! That's the ticket, there won't be enough of them once the crap hits the fan in Uzbekistan! All that heroin...jeeze, they gotta have something to buy with all that money. How about, cut rate surface to air missles! Yeah! Yeah! We're all gonna be rich, that's the ticket, we'll be so rich there won't be anyone we can't buy off. Even our own conscience!
by fionnmaccuhal
Wednesday Mar 27th, 2002 8:57 AM
RealPlayer is the worst streaming format. It's total bloatware, yet it finds such a home on the web. Fight it!
by Eric
Wednesday Mar 27th, 2002 9:14 AM
Mungo Jerry, I LOVE HOW YOU THINK MAN! I've got the looks and you've got the brains! Let's make lot's of money!

oh and did you know...

<once the crap hits the fan in Uzbekistan!>

rhymes! That's gonna be my new slogan, I'll use it for everything...Someone asks me what time it is, I'll say,

"It won't matter once the crap hits the fan in Uzbekistan! "

or "would you like fries with that?"

"Nah, not unless the crap hits the fan in Uzbekistan!"

I love that shit.

You guys crack me up!
by concerned observer
Wednesday Mar 27th, 2002 10:10 AM
Eric, there are so many flaws in all of your arguments so far that i really don't have the time, or patience, to pick every one out. However, i'll take one example that illustrates quite adequately your level of ignorance, which you try to mask, at some points, by sounding psuedo intellectual -granted this is rare.
"You've only taken step one of the scientific method." What exactly is the scientific method? Kuhn, Popper, Feyerabend, Lakatos -to name a few- have devoted their working lives to set out the criteria that constitute scientific method and thus is the demarcation between science and other pursuits. They, however, have never agreed on exactly what the 'scientific method is, or should be. i was just wondering then if, using your wonderfully critical mind, you could enlighten me, or us rather. Thanks so much....
by Biblejuicer
Wednesday Mar 27th, 2002 10:24 AM
Never respond directly to any difficult questions; rather, shift to invective, hyperbole and dysjunctive syllogisms. Never argue defense, always return fire with personal attack. Lower the level of debate whenever possible. Repeat, never respond directly to any allegations. Reduce all argument to the most simplistic insults possible. Always remember that Jerry Springer was mayor of Cincinatti, might have gone all the way if he hadn't got caught in that whore house. Always attack. Any attempts to justify atrocities will invariably lead to discovery not that there are massive holes in logic, but that there is no logic at all. No matter what happens, under all circumstances, act superior. Vote republican. If you are not for me, you are against me. My god can kill your god. Respond to all attempts at reason by telling them they are pathetic. Reply to any serious attempt at debate by telling them they are idiots. Be free with insults. Attack. Remember what Eisenhower said. Around the same time Einstein said the US was picking up where germany left off. He wasn't just talking about armaments. I actually met Werner Von Braun once. Nice man. Beautifully manicured fingers. Attack. Do not question the imperial dogma. Always feel supreme. Speak as if you have your own private magna carta. Remember that righteousness has more idioms for the hell it hides than any heaven it can promise. Polarize, marginalize. Sully the debate at every turn. Remember Ayn Rand evolved into Ann Coulter. Don't answer any questions. Don't ask any questions. Orwellian Blueprint at work. The Last Man in Europe. Camus' the First Man. Enemy minds, discredit rather than defend. Stay safe. Stay in the wheels. Spit, swear that any search for the truth is an inquistion. Cast dispersions on their personal lives. Pump up the bile. Infuse and inflame. There is no truth. There is no grand illumination for humanity by means of the realization of democracy. Don't let anyone ask why it is we are installing a king. There is no truth. There is only power. Let them eat cake. Attack, insult. Remember that just because your paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you. Attack, demean, lower all levels of discourse. Keep it slimey. And never forget in the immortal words of Randy Newman "Let's drop the big one. There'll be no one left to blame us."
by Human
Wednesday Mar 27th, 2002 10:36 AM
I take the blame for steering Eric onto this video from the projectcensored.org web site. Eric has been so kind to post his opinions here and there. It helps to know the profile of these folks who see themselves as having attained success. Food for thought.
by Eric
Wednesday Mar 27th, 2002 10:40 AM
See! This is exactly what I'm talking about. Again, no answers. Just a mediocre attempt to slander my "pseudo" intellect.

What arguments? How can my arguments have flaws if I haven't really made any. I find flaw in your argument that my arguments are flawed.

Ok, I wasn't trying to get too deep for ya on this scientific method thing. I was merely talking about the generally accepted scientific method that we all learned in like the 6th grade. Let's don't get philosophical. Remember the KISS principle (Keep It Simple Stupid-ass).

In case you forgotten what you learned in the 6th grade, I found this website for you:

http://teacher.nsrl.rochester.edu/phy_labs/AppendixE/AppendixE.html

I think it comes from the Rochester Middle School web page or something, but it'll be a good "refresher" course for ya.

So as you can see, most of you here on Indymedia absolutely love step 1, which is:

1. Observation and description of a phenomenon or group of phenomena.

But then you fail to even approach completion of any of the other steps.

In short, you do not provide us sheep with any answers. You all seem to think that is not what is important. Unfortunately for your causes, you are wrong. See, in order to win the war you fight so vigilantly for, ultimately, you are going to need me (the non-believer and the majority) on your side. Otherwise you are wasting you time and energy.

What really entertains me in all of this is how many of you seem personally scorned by all of these conspiracies. It's as if you, personally are suffering from these plights. You know, Mohammed Attah wsa personally suffering from the Palestinian plight. Even though he wasn't Palestinian. Even though he'd never been there. Look where it took him.

And you claim that I'm cutting my own throat.

by me again
Wednesday Mar 27th, 2002 11:17 AM
Go on, get deep on me... please. 6th grade teaching won't suffice. Perhaps you could stop abiding by your KISS Principle- that's a good one, funny as well. Its not that i've taken personal offence to you not believing in conspiracy theories as i also find them quite hard to swallow. However, since you bring up Mahammod Atta it is intereting to note that the Indian Press linked him with money transferred by Pakistan's cheif spy in the National intelligence agency. the same spy who flew into the US one week before the terrorist attacks to have private meetings with high level officials... interesting. http://globalresearch.ca.
What i do take offence to is ignorance.
by Eric
Wednesday Mar 27th, 2002 11:43 AM
no answers.

Perhaps your 6th grade teachings won't suffice for you. (What the 6th grade is like in India?). Mine have served me well.

I am amazed at how smart some of you are! Your vocabularies are really quite astounding (how much are those Word Power cassettes running for these days?). You would just think that with brilliant minds like we have on here well, they'd employ their energies a little more constructively and efficiently. Oh, well just a random observation.

<What i do take offence to is ignorance.>

And what do you consider ignorance? Not capitalizing the pronoun I? Using the archaic spelling of "offense"? (Sorry, not trying to be the grammar police, but for a harsh statement like that, we really should have all I's dotted (or in this case, capitalized) and T's crossed). Let's all take personal responsibility for the ignorances of the world (It's fun!).
by Dr. Johnson
Wednesday Mar 27th, 2002 11:54 AM
Thanks to Eric for the link to the http://www.africa2000.com/PNDX/theory.htm

I have only looked at Ruppert's site, not the video.

In some ways it reminds me years ago of Danny Sheen, The Christic institute and the LaPenca case, though Ruppert is less credible.

What confuses me is that Eric could point to this link on the one hand, and be so antagonistic to some of the views, concerns and suspicions presented here. If we ask ourselves what is any government agency doing paying reporters and buying newspaper and planting false stories in foreign lands? Nobody seems to answer. I don't think they have the right to do that, not according to our constitution.

I guess the arguments between us are worthless. Anyway you look at it, no matter what you believe, WE are ALL in deep trouble. I personally believe that George W. Bush and his administration is far closer to the desease than it is to the cure. And what happened on September 11th is the scariest thing I have ever seen. What is equally disturbing to me is that Bush can seize the situation in such a way that so many people are willing to follow so blindly.

However, I do not believe the polls. The polls were wrong about the election. Bush was supposed to win. We have to remember, too, that the first call that Bush won the election came from Fox news, and that call was made from the desk of Bush's cousin, which immediately started this pressure cooker in which Gore was expected to concede (which he did, until he figured out what had happened).

Perhaps in that election what we really witnessed was the end of our democracy since the end of the cold war somehow has resulted in the CIA now feeling free to use their tactics on the domestic front.

No, I don't understand how Eric could point to such deeply organized propoganda, how premeditated and deceitful it is....and be so...I don't know...sticking a pin in Ruppert as a possible fake is one thing. But maybe what you are trying to get at is we are all missing the point. I had a girlfriend who was involved with the SDS and the Black Panthers. She said both organizations were infiltrated with people sponsored by the FBI who's job it was to agitate those groups into extreme militant action. So perhaps what Eric is trying to say is that Ruppert is a kind of false beacon, actually designed into the propoganda machine itself.

I am guessing at this, because I can't comprehend why Eric would point to something as disturbing as the propoganda site and be so vehemently abusive of some of the views expressed here.
by Eric
Wednesday Mar 27th, 2002 12:20 PM
Thank-you Dr. Johnson. Perhaps the only rational comment posted (not excluding most of my own). That's the closest thing you'll get to an appology from me so don't push it.

The simple reason I am so blunt and "vehemently abusive " as you put it, is because I believe in America. I believe in freedom and peace and protection of the American way of life. I want my children to grow up with the same freedoms and lifestyle that I've been permitted. Regardless of what many of you may think of me, I'm not some ignorant, radical right wing instigator of turmoil. If you carry out agression against your fellow man because I spurred you on, don't blame me for the consequences. I served this country for 12 years and I am a patriot. I'm not an afghani, I'm not a Palestinian, I'm not Philipino, Chinese or Russian. I don't sit in the home team's bleachers and root for the visitors. I will fight, die, and yes, I will kill to sustain the American way of life. Period. Go ahead and hate me.

My problem with many of you is that you are a threat to me, my family, and my children. You spew in order to undermine the government, the nation, and the President. Call me a typical American. That's what I am. That's what this nation is. There are MANY more of us then there are of you. I think you fail to see the big picture in that when one revolution is completed, typically the revolutioners replace one treacherous government for a worse one. So then they have to start all over, or usurp the new government. It never ends.

And I'm not speaking from ignorance. I've visited many third world nations. Mali, Cameroon, Cape Verde, Burkina Faso, Nigeria, most of west Africa, Europe (which incidentally is no better than we are), China, Romania, and South America. I've seen quite a bit. And folks, THERE IS NO PLACE LIKE AMERICA. As I've said before, it ain't perfect, but it is the best. I don't care if you don't believe it, go there and see for yourself.
Don't undermine it. You know not what you do.

With regards to the propoganda. I was merely attempting step 2 of the Scientific Method that I have been asking of each of you to carry forth.

Now go ahead. I spent my energy on this so you spend yours. Rip on me for loving America. Despise me for it. Cuss me out. Go ahead. Nothing you say will ever change the way I feel. Because, see I might not agree with your opinion, but I'd give my life for your right to express it (would you for me?)
by Mike Suma
Wednesday Mar 27th, 2002 12:39 PM
Conspiaracy Theories? You mean the one that says a rag-tag bunch of Islamic terrorists masterminded a well planned out attack on Amerika from caves in Afghanistan, but the U.S. intelligence could not have? Noam Chomsky may be intelligent, but he too believes the propaganda and lies put out by the New World Odor. In this way, the right and left, conservatives and liberals are all laying over and playing dead for NWO.
by danny thomas
Wednesday Mar 27th, 2002 12:45 PM
Nothing But Love from me for you Eric. I dont have a clue who you are and its very likely we have some very different personal politics, but for your previous post i have nothing but love for you.

these anarchist socialist communist vermin here have no idea how you could step in front of them to defend them from any attempt to silence them.

they dont know that over 1 million heavily armed and highly trained u.s. soldiers would rather die than have silenced the very voices shoutting against them.

youre a medal of honor kind of guy in my book. rock on.



by Eric
Wednesday Mar 27th, 2002 12:52 PM
Thank you Danny.
by Mkultraslimfastzealot
Wednesday Mar 27th, 2002 2:18 PM
So, lemmee get this straight...If I criticize the Bush Administration, then I automatically am insulting every American in uniform. Okayyyyyy...that makes sense.... Well, it's funny, one of my best friends is a retired Army Lt. Colonel and he thinks something really messed up is going on politically and it is really blood for oil. It is not an undermining issue to want cause for military action. The observation is that massive American Military might in this situation has been flexed. The stated objective is to "seek out the evildoers." The initial groundswell of domestic support was based on the concept that we would "git Osama." Bush himself had baseball type cards with Omar and Osama's pictures on them. But by observation, we see, that getting Osama or Omar must not necessarily have been the primary objective because Bushron no longer mentions them in public. Therefor, further observation dictates that this may not necessarily be an action in response to terrorism, specifically that of the alleged masterminds. So any hypothesis to explain the phenomenon is as good as another because we ain't being told nothing but shit, dude. My hypothesis is that we would have gotten involved with Afghanistan in a military action whether or not there was a 9-11. And...Mr. Average American, if you are so certain you represent the majority...where was that majority the day the presidential election was held? In spite of a 200 million dollar campaign chest, in spite of the candidacy of Nader, and inspite of the fact that he ran against an opponent who had all the charm, charisma and affability as a fire plug...he still lost the election. He needed a crisis to prop up his presidency because the honeymoon was over...also known as line 43 of your tax form. So, you hypothesize that military action is justified in response to 9-11. Not too many would argue with that. What kind is questionable. Dragging North Korea into the equation...duh...what was that all about? Does it have anything to do with Bush Sr.'s ongoing relationship with Sun Yung Moon? No big deal, I mean, he is just another convicted felon...just wondering. So, I guess, according to you, if Dubya ("this would be a lot easier if I were a dictator") bush raises his arm and says Zieg! We are all supposed to raise ours and say Heil! ??? And if we don't we are morons, idiots, cowards or whatever else you say and we should get misty eyed because you say you would take a bullet to defend our right to argue with you and question the reasoning behind risking thousands of lives and spending billions of dollars for a campaign that seems to be losing focus a little bit more every day? You cannot apply any logic to what is going on other than pretzel logic...oops, that won't even work, because George "I love Jim Beam" Bush can't be left alone with a friggin pretzel unless his mother reminds him to chew it first??? Am I supposed to get teary eyed because you...you...offer to take a bullet for me just like John Kerry did? Gimme a break, you wouldn't take a bullet for anybody unless someone ordered you to do it. Propoganda, all these war movies, all this killing, all this flag waving, all this slaughtering of "collateral damage" innocents, all this my country write or wrong god guts and guns made america free feces stinking to high heaven. Your polemic has all the reasoning and rational of some Lenny Reifenstahl Gestapo commercial. Take a bullet for me...my patuti, what a crock. Lucky us. My cousin was in naval intelligence for 16 years, dude, and he says he thinks the train is coming off the tracks. The guy that sits right friggin next to me is a sgt in the reserves and he thinks it's all running amuck, he was in Desert Storm and he says "we were definitely misled." Psyops. What...is it just some game for you? Guess what, most people do NOT think the way you do, but one hell of an effort is being made to get them to.

And does "still being the best country in the world" mean that we are not supposed to question...even with your 6th grade science...what is going on? Your 6th grade hypothesis, which I am sure Shrub fully understands, cannot get past the first step because the hypothesis is even harder to swallow than Shrub's pretzel story. The guy got shit faced an blacked out and everybody knows it. Those Israeli's dancing in NY on 9-11 knew in advance what the FBI was trying to get this administration to act on. NO FISA's for Arabs. Atta was a known entity. Why does all this crap happen in Florida or Texas? Ted Nugent for President!! Oliver North can be his secretary of state. And by the way, I have had conversations with clinically diagnosed schizophrenics. What can I say, they paid the rent. But I think you just like being a smart ass, a night scoped devil's advocate. Fine. My brother was stationed in Germany during the Cuban missile crisis. He was so sure that we were all going to be vaporized that he made a tape with his buddies in the barraks which I recently came upon. They were trying to imagine a different world, one "without communism". It was so strange to listen to it. Communism as basically vanished. We are the only superpower. Was Churchy LaFemme right? Is there a possibility that we just might not be the good guys we think we are? Is it our army, or Unocal's army? Is it American intelligence, or United Fruti Company intelligence. Nah...you are not dying for me... you are dying for Kenny Boy and he is putting flowers on your grave as his wife sheds tears for you on CNN. But fortunately, most the people "taking bullets" for me right now are feuding mercenaries with shifting alliances between various warlords bankrolled by the CIA. It's gonna get ugly up in the mountains with those seven tribes no matter how much you scare the Times scribes. And that putz Mushareef, why, don't he look jus' like a slim trim Noriega! Bin Laden is in Kashmir. They don't go after him there because they know #1) That won't help build no stinking pipe line and #2) it would probably result in war between Pakistan (home of Bush's "Paki" friends) and India, for whome you seem to hold some secret contempt. It's like gimmee a break. We got hit because we had our pants down, the big question is why, and even who, because Tony Blair doesn't speak as my Commander In Cheif's mouth piece. I am no anglophile like the Bushroni. History, if there is any left, will be very very cruel to Shrub, unless we are completely homogenized, but hey, at least then, no one will have to offer taking bullets for anyone or anything because we will all be zombies with one end of the tube in our mouths and the other end in our arse, the only question being should we suck or blow!
by luc
( gehgehtester [at] hotmail.com ) Wednesday Mar 27th, 2002 2:39 PM

Thanks for the reading guys-

I thought you might like this link on propaganda and advertising. I really learned something about how it works from this one:

http://www.thetexasmercury.com/articles/weber/PW20020120.html


by enlightin
( enlightin [at] hotmail.com ) Wednesday Mar 27th, 2002 4:50 PM
Please speak fequently, I appreciate your input. A small detail about the Constitution is that we are are entitled only to the rights that we can defend as a people, so say good bye to the Fourth amendment via the patriot act because as I see it none of us so called Americans are willing to defend the right to freedom in our own homes form Govermental intrusion, there for by Constitutional Law we are not entitled to that freedom, Bush has done some of his reading. It is in the details.
by enlightin
( enlightin [at] hotmail.com ) Wednesday Mar 27th, 2002 4:51 PM
Please speak fequently, I appreciate your input. A small detail about the Constitution is that we are are entitled only to the rights that we can defend as a people, so say good bye to the Fourth amendment via the patriot act because as I see it none of us so called Americans are willing to defend the right to freedom in our own homes form Govermental intrusion, there for by Constitutional Law we are not entitled to that freedom, Bush has done some of his reading. It is in the details.
by StaR
Wednesday Mar 27th, 2002 9:04 PM
A comment if I may.

----------
Let there be light
by enlightin

A small detail about the Constitution is that we are are entitled only to the rights that we can defend as a people, so say good bye to the Fourth amendment via the patriot act because as I see it none of us so called Americans are willing to defend the right to freedom in our own homes form Govermental intrusion, there for by Constitutional Law we are not entitled to that freedom, Bush has done some of his reading. It is in the details.
----------

As a PERSON, you are entitled to NOTHING. People and PERSON are not the same thing at law.

First of all, I would like to see you personally JOIN the UNION of the States. You cannot be a State and yet only States are parties to the Constitution.

Secondly, you fail to comprehend what happened during the civil war. Just prior to the war, PEOPLE lived in the CONFEDERATION known as the "United States of America", a UNION of the States, under a Parliamentary system with a republican form of government. It adopted the Constitution of the United States of America 1787.

Now show me in this constitution the provision for one state to declare war on another state of the UNION? No such thing. A. Lincoln, PRESIDENT of the CONFEDERATION known as the "United States of America", did NOT use the parliamentary process to declare war on the southern States but the INTERNATIONAL laws of WAR. The CONFEDERATION known as the "United States of America" ceased to exist. PEOPLE now lived in an OCCUPIED land under the laws of war, MARTIAL LAW. The CONQUERING states then formed a CORPORATION known as the "District of Columbia" also known as "United States". Say goodbye to your constitutional rights and welcome to CORPORATE RULE. We hope you enjoy your new STATUS of PERSON, an ENEMY of the State and no longer a "we the people". A PERSON under MARTIAL LAW does not have RIGHTS but mere PRIVILEGES granted by the CONQUERING BODY CORPORATE, the "United States".

StaR
by Eric
Thursday Mar 28th, 2002 5:37 AM
When I said there are MANY more of US than there are of YOU, I wasn't joking.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/releases/pr020321.asp?Version=p
by Just Looking
Thursday Mar 28th, 2002 6:05 AM
War does wonders for polls.From the bottom of the page.

2001 Sep 14-15
Approve 86%

2001 Sep 7-10
Approve 51%





by ...
Thursday Mar 28th, 2002 6:31 AM
Eric, Europe is very different from America. Funnily enough that's where i got my education, not India. We also spell offense this way, it's got nothing to do with being archaic. not putting i with a capital has nothing to do with ignorance maybe ego but not ignorance. i read your last post and finally it fits into place. i'll leave you with a quote from one of the most famous scientists so far, seeing as you seem so fond of the subject...
"He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice. This disgrace to civilisation should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, deplorable love of country stance, how violently I hate all this, how dispicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be part of so base an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder." -Albert Einstein
by Eric
Thursday Mar 28th, 2002 6:52 AM
Yes, he also said many other things (when he wasn't developing the fundamental construction design used for nuclear weapons) including:

“If A equals success, then the formula is A = X + Y +Z. X is work. Y is play. Z is keep your mouth shut.”
-- Albert Einstein

So why don't you Z.

Now let me leave you with a quote from a favorite American patriot of mine:

"I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."

- George S Patton, June 1944

Have a nice day.
by anon
Thursday Mar 28th, 2002 7:08 AM
"This disgrace to civilisation should be done away with at once."

And how should we "do away" with these "disgraceful people? Should we build an army from all civilised communities and declare war on them?

"Heroism at command, senseless brutality, deplorable love of country stance, how violently I hate all this"

he violently hates love of country? anyone else see any irony in this statement besides me?

"how dispicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be part of so base an action!"

It's that irony thing again...

It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder." -Albert Einstein

But it seems he would condone murdering those who commit war because they love their country.
by mkultralsdaccident
Thursday Mar 28th, 2002 8:03 AM
Bush is slowly sliding down the crapper, even if you only look at the statistics. The same thing is going to happen to Bushron as happened to his vile old man, no matter how hard the likes of Ashcroft and Wolfowitz CONSPIRE to pervert our democracy. Think about it. After being in office for only 6 months he takes a one month vacation. He was notorious for showing up for work around 9 and taking at least an hour and a half to two hour break around one in order to go for a run and take a nap. He ordered that no meeting he attended should last more than 20 minutes, and he rarely had any scheduled back to back. When they gave the news to him in that class room on 9-11 they had to go back in and tell him again. He not only has to be told what has happened, but he has to be told that what is happening is or is not an urgent event. So, picking up a bull horn and putting his arm around some construction worker did not magically make him more of a president for me than he was on September 10th. Perhaps if this administration had been paying as much attention to our national security as they were to the long term profit objectives of their oil cartel golums, they might have listened to the FBI. Instead they try to somehow blame it on Clinton (not because he fired a cruise missile into a mosque, but because he had denuded the CIA, not that he was their nemisis by any means, part of the reason he was able to become president was because of his association witht he CIA in Mena, Ak). So what Bushron does is to create another beauracracy, the office of homeland seurity. Isn't that the job of the FBI? The CIA has been homing in on domestic security since the early 90's, they're like NATO, a bloated hyrdra beast in search of a purpose/enemy. But the question is...what have we accomplished? America Strikes back, that was the slogan in October. But who were we striking back against? The "Northern Alliance" is a rag tag association of dispossed heroin dealers. The king we are fighting to reinstall in Kabul has himself said that the American bombing mission was "a pointless waste". Estimates of civilian casualties are almost impossible to confirm because the Pentagon does not want anyone to know that more civilians have been killed in Afghanistan than were killed on 9-11.
That should bother us. It should make us sick to think that people who were the very victims of the Taliban were killed. It should outrage us that our govt would be trying to hide that from us...up to the point of authorizing military personel to use deadly force to stop American reporters from covering the truth.
The last thing Rumsfeld wants is any pictures like the one of that girl running naked out of a napalmed Vietnamese village 33 years ago. Which is so disgusting, because the reality means almost nothing to them...just like the reality of the "compromise" of the water supply systems in Iraq that have lead to the death of thousands of children, hundreds of thousands according to the United Nations. But it isn't the fault of the US for imosing such an embargo, it is the fault of Sadam...who we helped create and left in power after waging a huge war. Sadam was called "a Hitler" by Bush the First. Can you imagine anyone having left Hitler in power at the end of WWII? Well, it's beginning to look a lot like the same process for bin-Laden. And it wouldn't matter if he were killed anyway. Many more will take his place. These people do not hate us because of what we have, they do not hate us "because we are free." We prop up regimes that oppress them. How do you defeat a suicide bomber? Close the borders? Round everyone up that looks suspicious? Make a few really lucrative petro deals in the process, some really "good buys"? It does not have to be this way. Does it? Are we "the best country on earth" because we have so much more than anyone else? Because we use more? Because we spend more on defense? Because we have total air supremacy? Because we are willing to drop bombs on anyone anywhere so long as it serves to protect the interests of oil companies and the expansion of NATO? And as the bodies are piled up here, everyone of them, men, women, firemen, children, clergy, bankers, brokers, secrataries...they are called heroes, and as the bodies pile up abroad they are called "collateral damage". Sounds like something that happens out in the freaking parking lot. Oh, it's no big deal, just a little collateral damage, bring it in to the shop in the morning and we'll fix it right up for ya, no problem. It's so insane. It's the end of the world as we know it. It's like the Antrax was the Aimes strain, out of our own labs, and they are still trying to pin it on Afghanistan...who's "labs" were a fiction created to have a reason to send in the British Marines. Lies, lies and more lies. We are pulverizing the most screwed up country on earth. Their were already over three million refugees before we got there. We USED them to defeat the Soviets and then left them to hang out and dry. Just like we USED Noriega to run all that cocain up from Columbia. Noriega was on the payroll, for gods sake...so were the Taliban!!! Bin Laden and some of his key people were trained by US intelligence! We have to change the way we conduct our foreign policy. We have to stop allowing our taxes and the blood of our service people to be spent protecting the New World Order, which is really a euphemism for Global Corporate Control. It is only going to get worse. There will be more terrorists. We will end up being like Israel and the rest of the world will be like Gaza. Maybe we'll get used to it like people did in Londonderry. This is the greatest country on earth, there is no doubt about it...the greatest ever, but we are on the verge of becoming something else, something entirely different in the eyes of the rest of the world. Waging war for oil is murder. Killing women and children to build piplines is MURDER.
by Eric
Thursday Mar 28th, 2002 8:25 AM
and I feel fine.

Great googily moogily you sure are a long winded blowhard! Banter, banter, banter!

You're just still upset about the election aren't ya. It'll be okay. Really it will. Calm down, now calm down. Just calm yourself. Here have a valium. I promise, everything'll be alright. Just sing a little Bob Marley, c'mon sing with me...Don't worry...about a thing...every little thing, is gonna be alright...so don't worry.

Now, now doesn't that feel better. Yes, there you go. All okay. Everything is fine in the world. Yes it is. Just take that frown and turn it upside down. There ya go. Peace my brother. Peace.
by Bill
Thursday Mar 28th, 2002 8:37 AM
At least there is one sane voice on this site... thank you Eric. There's just one thing I find slighty upsetting with your quote.
"I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."
I, like yourself have served this country -as you said in an earlier post- but what I don't like is the thought of being 'the other poor dumb bastard,' as I'm sure you don't. This quote would seem to suggest that we are just because you servered this great nation. I had many friends who died in service when fighting the Communists, but it was for the freedom of this nation and its people that they were fighting for. Others on this site would do well to remember that. By this nation's people I also mean those in Vietnam and such like. It's the same with terrorism now, we have to go to others lands and bomb them so that we can defend this nation and its values. Nothing wrong with that. Hell I'd fight if I could still walk. No offense buddy, I just don't like being thought of as a 'poor dumb bastard' just like you don't... cause you're not.
by Bill
Thursday Mar 28th, 2002 8:40 AM
At least there is one sane voice on this site... thank you Eric. There's just one thing I find slighty upsetting with your quote.
"I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."
I, like yourself have served this country -as you said in an earlier post- but what I don't like is the thought of being 'the other poor dumb bastard,' as I'm sure you don't. This quote would seem to suggest that we are just because you servered this great nation. I had many friends who died in service when fighting the Communists, but it was for the freedom of this nation and its people that they were fighting for. Others on this site would do well to remember that. By this nation's people I also mean those in Vietnam and such like. It's the same with terrorism now, we have to go to others lands and bomb them so that we can defend this nation and its values. Nothing wrong with that. Hell I'd fight if I could still walk. No offence buddy, I just don't like being thought of as a 'poor dumb bastard' just like you don't... cause you're not
by Eric
Thursday Mar 28th, 2002 9:04 AM
You're welcome Bill. And thank you.

As far as being a "poor dumb bastard", it's sarcasm. Bill, as you obviously know from your time in the service, there's not a right minded individual that serves without, from time to time, wandering if he/she is a poor dumb bastard. "Why am I here? What purpose is this serving? Why don't a get an easier job? I could make a lot more money as a civilian, couldn't I? Why should I follow the orders of this idiot appointed over me?" The list of questions that crosses all of our servicemembers minds from time to time goes on and on.

The realization that we return to is that we are Americans. We value our way of life and we are prideful. We love our nation and our fellow citizens, no matter how idiotic they may seem. It's a great service to ones country, and I respect any man who serves his nation, not just the Americans. We have a code that binds us. Honor, Courage, Commitment. The rest of these jerks can spew all day, in the end it amounts to nothing. They have no code, no comrads, no redeeming, unifying group. But we have served our cause.

At the end of the day, like Danny Thomas said yesterday, when the Hitler's come, when the Hussein's come, when the Kadafis and the Khrushchevs come, with their steel grip around the throats of these loudmouths in a choke hold so tight that they can't breathe let alone whimper and spew, it will be you, I, or one of our brothers that will be tapping him on the shoulder so we can see the look in his eyes when we plunge the knife in his belly, just before the life leaves the body of that loud, loud, loudmouth.
by mkultraLOA
Thursday Mar 28th, 2002 10:27 AM

"we have to go to others lands and bomb them so that we can defend this nation and its values. Nothing wrong with that."
Thanks, Bill, I guess it is all pre-emptive. We should presume that everyone in the world thinks like we do, therefore, we should routinely bomb various nations at random in order to defend our values! Good plan! Now I finally understand US foreign policy, thanks for enlightening us all!
Eric - again, all you do is demean, you never confront the substance of what anyone says, you're like a mini Limbaugh (accent on mini). I do NOT feel sad that Gore lost the election, I couldn't give a damn about him, what I do care about is WHAT HAPPENED. That's the problem with the Right in this country nowadays. Take no prisoners. Victory at all costs. Seize power. Clinton can be impeached for a blow job. Reagan Bush can run drugs and give arms to the "Freedom fighters" (euphemism for CIA asset drug dealers) and even Iran. IRAN!!! Twenty tractor trailer loads of TOW missiles, dude, read the Tower Commission report...and that is after the hostage crisis. Domestically it is nothing other than fascism, pal, and globally it is nothing other than imperialism.
You can't give a single logical reason to substatiate the bombing in Afghanistan, most the al queda fled and we let them flee...why not bomb the Saudi's? Hell, we should have started with Pakistan. Why not bomb Luxemborg? Fiji? Why not bomb some little known island for making to much nutmeg? Let's just throw darts at the map...it would make as much sense as what they are doing now. Call me a windbag if you want, but all it says to me is that you haven't a leg to stand on, rationally, logically or morally, pard. All it means to me is that you dine well on the lies you're served.
Every day the GOP begins to look a bit more like the National Socialist Party, brother. And if anybody ends up taking a bullet for anyone in this country in order to defend their right to free speech, more than likely it will be because of intollerant, narrowminded, shiftless self serving greedy scumbags like such visionary conservative revolutionaries as Newt Gingrich. The Evil Empire is gone. Bushron needs his evildoers so that no one will ask questions about who he blew to get where he is.
Four trillion dollars have disappeared.
Poof.
A pig will eat itself to death.
But not, it seems, a fascist pig.
"it will be you, I, or one of our brothers that will be tapping him on the shoulder so we can see the look in his eyes when we plunge the knife in his belly, just before the life leaves the body of that loud, loud, loudmouth."
Golly, Eric, sounds like a bit of the psychotic fantasies underlying your code of honor and commitment has slipped through. You just described the visualization of gutting one of your fellow citizens because he voices his discontent with a president who has publicly professed how easy life would be if he were a dictator... I guess they give some people with that problem lithium or haldol, others, like you, for some god forsaken reason, they hand a uniform.
by martin
Thursday Mar 28th, 2002 10:41 AM
Your many words doth make you look like a complete dumbass, windbag.

My guess is you're not willing to die for what you believe in, which makes what you believe in not worth much to even you. So why should others follow?

So, mkultra, are you willing to die for what you believe in? Can you answer a simple 'yes' or 'no'?
by Eric
Thursday Mar 28th, 2002 10:57 AM
"You just described the visualization of gutting one of your fellow citizens"

Wrong genius. Read again. I just described saving one of my loud mouthed fellow citizens (BTW, I had you in mind) from the same historic butchers that would make you shut the hell up.

Want to know why I "never confront the substance of what anyone says" (namely you)? Because your a long winded blowhard. There is no substance to what you preach. None. Not a scrap, not one iota. Nil. Niche. Zero.

And I've read every word you've written (It pains me to admit that). It's the banter of a schizophrenic. It's mad.

Let me tell ya how I know. Anyone here who's read my previous posts know's who I am and what I stand for. The know I'm conservative, right wing, and steeply radical. They know I'm ex-military and very patriotic (by the American accepted definition of the word).

But you? who knows what the hell you want! What is it? The Democrats to be in control? Is it your partisan perspectives you wish to convey? To slander the current administration at all costs? Anarchy? Marxism? To breed paranoia? To have others follow you into a world of mass consperacies and terror? Humane treatment for non-Americans? Good Lord man, you're all over the place!

So why don't you tell us all here what exactly is that you want? What will solve all these problems? You're obviously a smart guy whose spent a lot of time pondering these issues. You must have some solutions...some conclusions...some opinions on how we all can do our part to fix this thing "that is coming off the tracks". Tell us. Enlighten us. Well, hell at least enlighten me! I don't know if anyone else is in on this other than me and you, but ya know I'm intrigued. So go ahead, smart guy. Or are you just gonna tell me to go find the answers for myself? "Oh that's the ticket" The great master holds back the wisdom. When you can grab the pebble from my hand, grasshopper, it will be time for you to leave. Here I am. A lump of clay. But go easy on the verbosity of your reply and spell it out fer me cuz I needs it to be kept simple. Hit me baby. Hit me, hit me hit me hit me. I'm wide open. All ears (eyes, whatever). Tell me the meaning of life. Break it down for me. Buss-it.
by mkultra
Thursday Mar 28th, 2002 11:38 AM
I do not have to tell the likes of you what I believe in and all this willing to die baloney is just a bunch of hyper patriotic mindless jingo that is unbelievably stupid. I mean, dumb! Whataya willin' to die for, man, come on, tell me, man! Gimmee a break. It's like, somebody says, hey, you know, Bush is a crackhead whiskey boy, should we really be following him down the valley of the shadow of death? And the answer comes back..."whattaya willing to die for, man, whattaya willin' to die for. Man!" Jeeze, I will tell you, however, that I am not willing to die for a bunch of blue blooded drunken Ivy boys who treat the world as their playground. I am not willing to die for GE, Chevron, Bechtel, or frigging Enron. If you want to lie down and have your guts spilled out to make the likes of Kenny Boy a multi billionaire...well, then, shoot, I don't know what to say.
Except, all you would have to do is work for him. Bushron, Reagan, Regan, Kissinger, Order a Pizza for me McFarlane Nixon, Poindexter...POINDEXTER, he's back!!! even John Deans said, whoa...whoa Nelly on that one. John Dean, did not have as nice a manicure as Werner Von Braun when I shook his hand, though...pantheon of traitors, really, not only against the USA, but against all that is holy, worthwhile and wondrous about humanity. Would I die for them? You betcha, where do I sign up to be cannon fodder for the rich an infamous! Jeeze, Kadafy coming to America, right. I remember when they bombed his house the same night we bombed the French embassy and the only person killed was a four year old girl in Khadafy's house, whom he said he adopted. Casper Weinberger held a news conference the next day to proclaim that there was no proof that the little girl was Khadafy's kid! The fact she was killed meant nothing to him. Not a damn thing. The fact we bombed the French embassy meant nothing other than it happed 800 meters out of the fly path of the Khadafy's residence the night after the French refused to let us use their air space. Yeah, I want to die for some corporate executive who vacations in the bowels of conservative administrations so as to further line the pockets of his defense contractor buddies at the club. Jeeze....c'mon you guys, lighten up.
Solutions?
Ratifiy the treaty on International law and abide by it, for starters.
Little things, like maybe looking for other things to do with our wealth beside being the worlds biggest arms merchant. Look at Iran and Iraq. We armed them both.
Stop proping up dictatorships for the sake of corporate profiteering.
Most the people in the world look toward America with hope because we are still the greatest country on earth, but we are not being the "shinning beacon" on the hill that Jefferson envisaged because greed has too much influence in our foreign policy. Sure, we give more than anyone, but we also take.
Arming Israel the way we have is a mistake. It should come, if at all, with heavy strings attached, namely, dealing with the Palestinian quagmire. We also have to re=evaluate our support of Mubarak. There is a reason why there is tremendous unrest in the Muslim world, because so many of those countries have despotic regimes, and not a few among them are able to keep their strength because of US support. Now certainly, we have reason to fear muslim extreemism, but muslim extremism is more likely to grow under the yoke repression. Right now anybody wearing a funny hat can stir up all kinds of madness against the US or the west in general. They feel threatened, their way of life, just like we do, and it is easy for nutjobs to make enough people believe we are satan by pointing to our policies.
The airbase in Saudi Arabia has to go, plain and simple. The only reason to leave it there would be in the hope that the terrosits would attack the Feisal family and not us in an attempt to get rid of it.
I believe that ambassadors, and cabinet appointees should have their professional backgrounds discussed in great length at hearings to discover any personal conflicts of interests. This is rarely done in reference to what their appointment would entail.
Use our influence to downscale NATO. It has no reason to exist.
Use the UN to form coalitions that will construct a cooperative agreement among nations to limit their defense spending to a much smaller percentage of thier GNP's.
Have a moratorium on new weapons development.
Open our labs to inspection as well as expecting to see those in other countries.
Cancel the star wars initiative...now.
Cancel the JSF program...now.
We are on the verge of entering into a new kind of arms race, but it's like we are only developing more sophisticated weaponry so that we can have superior arms to keep to ourselves when we sell the stuff we now have later on down the road.
We are so rich, so powerful, so endowed with great minds of science, art...everything. We can become a true leader of the world. Eisenhower said beware of the military industrial complex. We have to find a way of dismanteling it, or it will be our undoing, and we have to start with organizations like the CIA and the NSA and the Pentagon.
I am not saying we should disarm, but I am saying that we have to find another way of doing this superpower role, because it is not working. We have to do something else.
Maybe it seems like I criticize too easily, but seriously, Bush - he's like totally unreal to me. Cheney, on the other hand, is very very vivid.
So, I guess all I'd do is stop proping up guys like Pinochette, Noriega, Sadam, Pol Pot, bin Laden, the Taliban and the like, then turning on them when they no longer serve a purpose.
Like Mushareef...you know he's going to be a problem in a couple of years, he'll do something stupid in Kashmir, and it will all unravel again, even before this onion is peeled.
by Eric
Thursday Mar 28th, 2002 12:19 PM
I think one of two things has just happened here. Either:

1. I've lost my mind from reading so much of your previous malarky...

or

2. Now your making some rational sense.

I agree with many of your ideas. Many of them. No doubt. Some, I may argue with, but many are solid, well founded ideas. I can't demean you for the content.

I can demean you for the conveyance. None of what you've expressed as desiring to come to pass, ever shall with your given transport. I'm trying to say, you're a pretty abrasive guy. Intelligent, well thought out, but like sandpaper.

But a lot of those items, I feel are idealistic. Not bad, not unreasonble, but not imaginable to forsee coming to fruition.

Personally, I don't have answers to suggest how to move in those directions. Run for office maybe? Your gonna piss a lotta people off with that sort of platform, because there are many weak minded folks in this country. They're not bad people. They're just the common folk that want to be led. That's really what most people want, you know. Someone to think for them. You could start at the local level and disguise your pretenses I suppose. Gain enough power until it's your agenda. Not an easy task. Honestly, if you came out and told me the truth like you just did, I'd vote for you.

The best I can say is that those are really good ideas. Don't let your quest to see these things through skew your perspective. Don't let the fact that it seems your (very good) ideals appear to fall on massive deaf ears. Don't become bitter (as it seems you may be on your way).

by William Bright
Thursday Mar 28th, 2002 12:46 PM
Okay, Eric... you want the KISS principle?

Your comments seem to say that asking questions is akin to being a conspiracy theorist, yet, how else are you going to learn something unless you ask questions.

The first rule of thumb in learning something is to ask questions. Got it? In case you haven't figured it out, you don't have to know the answer when you pose a question. And yes, even conspiracy theories ask questions, too... in the reader's mind.

You cannot begin to learn unless you ask questions. Don't be surprised when many of the answers uncover the truth hidden underneath the double-speak and lies that this current administration is so fond of.

Don't be one of those sheeples that believe most everything this administration puts out via their spokespeople/spin-doctors. There ARE some people that would believe Bush if he said it is only rain when a dog is relieving himself on your leg.

If you haven't become a critical thinker in the last year, then you might as well join the rest of the sheeple in their mindless rush to nowhere.

Remember, you don't have to have answers when you pose a question. We're here to learn, not to be entertained.

Eric writes:
> I will fight, die, and yes, I will kill to sustain the American way of life.

Unfortunately, the "American way of life" includes the fact that our own CIA has been committing terrorist acts in other countries for decades. Notwithstanding the 2,000+ American lives that were lost on 9-11, are you proud of the fact that our leaders have caused the death of over hundreds of thousands of lives (including women and children) through acts of U.S. agression during peace time, beginning with Bush the Elder?

Could this be why some countries hate us? (Uh-oh... another question without an answer... guess that makes me a conspiracist.) It makes me wonder if the CIA -- and untimately the military -- is being used to further the interests of U.S. corporations on foreign soil. American politics has long been known by other countries as being two-faced. They see the real face of our national leaders -- elected or not -- which is not the same face that Americans know.

And I don't believe for an instant that there are people many more people that think like you, than those of us who are smart enough to ask questions, even if we don't have the answers... yet. Those popularity polls -- hell, most any poll -- are not accurate, but tools to be used to attempt to sway opinion. I know for a fact that there are many people who are assigned by a certain political party (un-named here, but guess who?) to respond to those polls like white on rice! Those polls are about as accurate as the Florida election results in 2000.

Another thing, Eric... in words of the illustrious Senator Trent Lott (R-dittohead), "I can support our troops, but I don't have to support the President" (or words to that effect) when President Clinton had a war going on in Kosovo. What's good for the goose....

Americans are beginning to remove the patriotic flag that this administration has used as a blindfold to reality, and you'd better be ready to find the answers to all the questions that are coming soon.

Anytime an administration uses the cloak of secrecy as everyday policy, then they've got something to hide for sure. Think back to other periods where there was a lot of governmental secrecy: Watergate, Iran-Contra, etc., and with any common sense, you'll recognize where this is headed. Does their secrecy mean that you don't have a right to ask questions or disagree?

Oh, and I do have plenty of questions, like:
1) What was the Taliban doing in Texas in the summer of 2001?
2) Who were the "U.S. Representatives" that told the Taliban that "either you accept our offer of a carpet of gold, or we bury you under a carpet of bombs," when trying to "persuade" them to let American "interests" build an oil pipeline in Afghanistan? (This statement was made when the Taliban would not accept the U.S. representative's conditions. The last meeting between U.S. Representatives and the Taliban were 5 weeks before September 11th.)
3. Is there any connection with Bush's month-long vacation in August, that ended about 2 weeks before September 11th?
4. Was Bush looking in a mirror when during his recent Asian trip, where he said he was "troubled by the lack of transparency in the government"?

If you are one of those who think it's wrong to question our government, especially since September 11th, then you have not learned the lessons that history affords those with "questioning minds".

In closing, I offer words of wisdom from the past:
"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar." --Julius Caesar

by Eric
Thursday Mar 28th, 2002 12:59 PM
Now go back and REALLY read everything I said. Maybe you'll see how stupid 90% of what you just wrote sounds.

What entertains me most about this forum is how the discussion always seems to turn to partisan politics. I know most of you guys are liberals and democrats, but for God's sake, get over it! I prefer to live my life answering questions, not contriving new questions from existing ones. After a while it's like a clone of a clone of a clone of a clone of a clone. It's stale already. Give it a break. If you're not gonna offer me any answers then don't even bother adressing me or what I've said. It's like trying to tell a Mormon about evolution! I can't hear you I can't hear you I can't hear you! Guess what? I can't hear you!

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. - unknown
by William
Thursday Mar 28th, 2002 1:49 PM
Typical evasive response, Eric... was wrong to have expected an intelligent response from you.

< I prefer to live my life answering questions... >

Why not start with answering some of the questions I asked in my original post? Funny... for a guy that hates questions, and you wanna live life by answering questions...

< If you're not gonna offer me any answers then don't even bother adressing me... >

Why should I offer you any answers when you've not asked any questions... 90% of your rants are abrasive and name-calling.

< I can't hear you I can't hear you I can't hear you! Guess what? I can't hear you! >

Calm down, boy... take your valium and you'll be okay. Just 'member: time wounds all heels... er, I mean, heals all wounds. LOL

by mkultrasound
Thursday Mar 28th, 2002 2:00 PM
Eric;
I apologize for any mudslinging. Really, we are running out of time. I metnioned my retired Army Lt col., we used to argue all over the place, but after a while we found out we had quite a bit of common ground. Especially since he left our state republican caucus after it was taken over by the Christian Coalition, but I digress (a huge problem, I know).
I bellieve that somehow we have to free the press. You know, like if we had people actually get to the point to where we demanded to know what the CFR is up to. Well, actually, we can find out. I tend to think it is not a HUGE conspiracy with a bunch of skull and boner types playing with Geronimo's skull figuring out how they can rule the world.
They are not that smart.
If they were, they would excercise their dominion with greater care. I see our leaders more in some kind of sad, campy Monty Python kind of charade. I hate to say it. I can't think of a single president in the 20th century that wasn't a walking contradiction. Even Teddy Roosevelt, it all culminating when he was shot running on the Bull Moose ticket.
Most politicians have very little vision, it's all about getting in and staying in office, congress especially. Most of us have given up, in many small ways, and we are inundated with all this stuff about how rotten our intelligence services are - movies, tv series, books, clancy, all that kind of stuff.
But you know, honestly, right now, i think one of the greatest things an American president could do right now would be to take a very strong leadership role in brokering peace in Palestine and Kashmir. There would be no conceivable peace in either situation that woud not piss somebody off. But say what you want about Jimmy Carter, the camp David accords bought us a lot of time.
We need to learn from our mistakes. Arming the Mujahedin for the purpose of ensnaring the soviets was a mistake. Because the peace we gained from that is no less perilous than the peace we had during the cold war. Back then we had a balance of power, MAD, mutual assured distruction, a kind of insane logic. Now, we seem to be heading toward a balance of terror, and god forbid we end up like Israel.
We can change these things. We have to.
What is great about this country is that I can get into it with Eric and we can say all this nasty crap and we can still come out on the other end.
Really, we don't have to convince anyone of anything because none of us want to see another city with a man made see of toxic tranquility in the middle of it.
And I would gladly and swiftly forget all blame if I thought GWB and Co. were up to the job, or even trying to deal with the entirety of the situation in a way that won't make it worse.
I would love to see an American president who had the political balls to go on work not just from a position of absolute power, but also from a stance of inclusion. If I were born in Ramallah in the last 20 years I would have no hope. There was an article in our paper recently about a Paletinian who came here to attend the university. He had family that had been her for almost 30 years, so his teenage cousin was basically raised an American. When they parted for the first time to go to their separate classes his cousin said to him "See you later...have fun."
What do you mean, he asked.
He had no idea of what "have fun" meant.
So everytime an Israeli proxy Lebanese mercenary kills a Paletinian kid for what really amounts to little more than target practice...there is a big funeral. The family wails in disbelief. Horror of horrors. And then the PLO and Hessbolah show up. The family and parents don't want them there, but what can they do?
Even Israeli soldiers are refusing to serve in the occupied territories - officers as well, it;s why the Israeli's have to have Lebanese mercenaries.
Now, one can begin to see the disaster. People getting ready for passover one minute, next instant their eyes, arms and organs are flying in every direction. Maybe it was the cousin of that boy that was shot. Even females are now becoming suicide bombers...this points to a level of desperation that is terribly disturbing.
But we have to ask ourselves...how come none of these 9-11 hijakers were Palestinian?
Why would Mohamed Atta, who was middle aged, well dressed, and possibly even a Saudi prince, be willing to do what he did? What is happening in Saudi Arabia? These are not stupid people. Some of them could speak four different languages. Insane, maybe, but not stupid.
I don't know, I can only imagine if I were a devout muslim and I listened to the wrong people long enough, I might feel like my land, my holy land...especially the land of Mecca, I can attain something that is far beyond our concept of heroism...at least in their minds, they can attain martyrdom, or sainthood. I mean, I can't imagine it myself, but it is like the kamakazis having their funerals on the Japanese carriers. Bushido and all that. But I guess what I am trying to say is how do you hammer at someone like that when they aren't flying off a carrier in a clearly marked plane? Killing and maiming innocent people, whether they are Palestinians, Pakistanis, Israelis, Afghanistans....or Americans...it's like putting out fire with gasoline, you know?
Anyway, I talk to much.
There has to be a better way.
For the sake of our children.

by Eric
Thursday Mar 28th, 2002 2:13 PM
I still can't hear you.

The reason I don't answer your questions is pretty simple. I don't know the answers.

If you've read the discussion you'd know that:

<Your comments seem to say that asking questions is akin to being a conspiracy theorist, yet, how else are you going to learn something unless you ask questions. >

can be answered by:

<Asking questions is fine and dandy folks. But it's only half of what needs to be presented. Without a workable answer, you may as well be asking "So what really makes gravity work?" or "Hmmm I wonder why a proton is sooo much bigger than an electron, but they both have the same magnitude of charge?" Must be some great conspiracies there huh?>

from one of my previous posts. and...

<The first rule of thumb in learning something is to ask questions. Got it? In case you haven't figured it out, you don't have to know the answer when you pose a question. And yes, even conspiracy theories ask questions, too... in the reader's mind. >

is a MOTO (Master Of The Obvious) statement. Do you know what the scientific method is? Your above statement is a restating of step 1 of the scientific method. Had you have read my post entitled...

<Pseudo Intellectual Response>

you would know that, yes, in fact I do indeed know that...

<The first rule of thumb in learning something is to ask questions>

and you would know what the second step is, because you'd know this has been previously discussed.

Similarly, I could continue to CUT APART the other 89% of your drivel to prove that...

<Maybe you'll see how stupid 90% of what you just wrote sounds. >

but alas, I don't have the time, patience, or energy.

Like I said, get a clue, then come back and we'll talk. If your not gonna invest your time to see my perspective, then leave me the hell out of your unenlightened discussions.



by mkultra
Thursday Mar 28th, 2002 2:40 PM
I think it is important to remember, that one way or another, we are all united by September 11th. There is not one among us, I'm sure who was not sickened and horrified. As Americans, as human beings, we have to pursue our individual ways of dealing with this in a way that contributes to the collective good. Playing Captain Nasty with each other is weird, we only push each other further into the pockets of our already made up minds. But what mind is made up of the right thing now? What solutions can we pursue if we are at each other's throats? Are we really so different from the Afghans, who's conflict and bickering is myriad and internecine?
None of us know the truth, none of us have the Answer, and we may never know what really happened...What we all have to do is carry on, somehow, together. If the madness is to be stopped, my guess is the only hope is if it comes by reason of this country providing the catalyst. This can't happen if we become conditioned to relate to one another like all these talking "experts" on the political fizz shows. We need to treat each other with more respect and less invective. I think to some degree in this environment views of the American public are being reflected, no matter what poll or statistic one presents. I cannot win any argument by discrediting someone on the opposite side of the issue; and besides, it may not even be an opposite side. We have to try and understand where each of us is coming from. It can't just be this forum where we participate or watch people getting off on attacking one another. I think that is the opposite of what brought most people here. So maybe we can kinda take it easy on each other, eh?
by William
Thursday Mar 28th, 2002 2:41 PM
< Like I said, get a clue, then come back and we'll talk.
> If your not gonna invest your time to see my
> perspective, then leave me the hell out of your
> unenlightened discussions.

Oh, I understand your perspective, all right.

I do not wish to chat with someone who only believes his/her perspective is right, and will not or cannot consider that other views may have more validity than he thinks. I see you have not taken your medication yet, too, by your sarcastic comments.

Take what you wrote above and go read it to yourself in front of a mirror.

G'day.
by Eric
Thursday Mar 28th, 2002 2:42 PM
mkultrasound, I could not agree with you more. As is pretty obvious, I don't have the answers. I'm looking for them like most everyone else. I'd love world peace and unity, freedom and prosperity for every man. I may be American, but I'm not that selfish and I'm not conspiring to keep anyone down.

And like you said, I don't believe they're that smart either. Smart enough to pull it off. I'd like to believe that there'd be someone like me or you right there, in the inner circle, saying, "Look guys, this is wrong" and when they give him the old axe he'd be screaming bloody murder. People tend to stand up and listen if you scream loud enough.

Mostly I agree that there has to be a better way, for our children's sake. I just don't know what it is. All I know really is that I've had a good life. I've always been well fed, clothed and sheltered. Maybe it's terrible, but I want that for my kids. I've seen enough places to know that most of the rest of the world doesn't have nearly these luxuries. When I was in Yaounde, I had walking skeleton children come up to me begging for what amounted to be 10 American cents. I went to give the child $10 and the local I was with discouraged it. "They'll use that money to buy shoe polish to sniff and get high, for the courage to beg for more", he said.
I was appalled and remorseful all at the same time. But the president of Cameroon, Paul Biya doesn't care enough for these children to give them one morsel of food. And the people themselves don't care about each other. It's like being the runt of the litter and all the bigger pigglets force you out of the suckling. What can you do. Human nature is what it is. It's survival. It's been that way since caveman times. It's not fair. It's not glamerous. Unfortunately, it's just life. And that is fleeting. If you're lucky (or unlucky depending on your perspective) you'll get your 70 years and then it'll be over. How can you take this great cosmic joke so seriously that makes you suffer. Why punish yourself like that. Be a good person. Do what you can. Stand for something. But don't wake up old and realize you haven't lived.

What the hell do I know?
by mkultra
Thursday Mar 28th, 2002 2:59 PM
Sometimes I don't think it matters what we know. All of us could sit in a circle and be told the truth, whatever that is, and we could still end up arguing about it, because we would still have our preconditioned ideas, all our terms of thought.
I believe in helping someone if they are hurt and you can offer them your hand and not fall into the whole with your family behind you. I believe in questioning injustice, sure. I think we have a lot to lose, and one way or the other we are going to, especially our kids, because the world is changing radically, and an increasingly accelerated rate and everything is getting chewed up faster and faster. My fifteen year old asks me once when she was in a mood, "how could your generation let this happen...Clinton, Bush...you're all the same, aren't you?" She made me think. In a way we are. Maybe it is just life, or like Dylan said "life and life only." Maybe each of us gets a moment, an instant, to make that magic moment work, even if it is just for one other person for an instant, anonymously. I would rather die wrong in a world being made right than die right in a world going to shit. I got no statues planned.
by Thomas Rogers
( tuifbyz [at] hotmail.com ) Thursday Mar 28th, 2002 4:42 PM
You know would it not be refreshing if there were honesty among thieves now days. September 10, 2001 would have looked like this - Imagine- (Presidential Important announcement) "Well, it's 4:20 and its time to let all you people know that we had planned to kill a bunch of New Yorkers tomorrow so me and my and my boys could steal all the worlds oil, without you being the wiser. But at church I heard a sermon on honesty and so here it is.-Us super rich guys are going to war with afghanistan to build a pipeline. Some of your children may die but its for a good cause. Your gas will be cheaper and we will control more of the world. If no one in Russia or China gets out of line and launches a nuke on our greedy fat heads this thing could work. This heres the New World Order and were gonna kick ass. Me and my college frat buddies The skull and boneses made a pact with the devil, so well, I'm being honest now I don't know....if i should have started this honesty thing. Tomorrows another day. Maybe everyone should stay away from the Millenium Hotel tomorrow. Goodnight. and dont touch that dial. Ken lay, an old buddy of mine has some stock he'd like to sell you...." cut to commercial- "Tired of wating to retire? well my company has a new stock plan for our employees... under our new honesty program called the "faith based initiative....Just let old kenny boy handle that nest egg for ya" next commercial-"Tired of that same old constitutional democratic republic? Hey check out this new doozy just off the showroom floor...George Orwell would be proud of this beauty..."next commercial-Arthur Anderson accounting. If the CIA trusts us to do thier accounting you can bet your money will be accounted to exact government specified standards (+/- a billion or two). -This is just an example of my thinking lately. The worlds messed up. I had to get a job just to get my mind off all this crap. In my new job I got in Kentucky , a factory assembly line-90% mexicans value add to a product made in China. 10% white 1% black. $5.50/hr. I love it. Thing is I think I like the mexicans better than the whites or blacks. (I'm white- german-?-cherokee)I think we should all kill ourselves and let the American Indians and the mexicans fight it out.
by Thomas Rogers
Thursday Mar 28th, 2002 5:10 PM
I really think what happened was... The Unknown Roswell, NM. alien thats been hiding since he crashed there read over old military/political history. The alien shapeshifted into duplicate of George Bush. He called his alien buddies and they took over Enron, Global crossing, The what house, the pentagram, DOJ, DEA, and various agencies of the Fed. That is why it appears that we have a government, but what it really is is an alien invasion. The first casualty was the truth. It is now called "the grey area." If this vision TV / Mike Ruppert version gets too much coverage, Either W will declare he was abducted by aliens or he will have too declare a dictatorship. My bet is the latter. This is like the aliens from third rock from the sun TV show.
by Thomas Rogers
Thursday Mar 28th, 2002 5:10 PM
I really think what happened was... The Unknown Roswell, NM. alien thats been hiding since he crashed there read over old military/political history. The alien shapeshifted into duplicate of George Bush. He called his alien buddies and they took over Enron, Global crossing, The what house, the pentagram, DOJ, DEA, and various agencies of the Fed. That is why it appears that we have a government, but what it really is is an alien invasion. The first casualty was the truth. It is now called "the grey area." If this vision TV / Mike Ruppert version gets too much coverage, Either W will declare he was abducted by aliens or he will have too declare a dictatorship. My bet is the latter. This is like the aliens from third rock from the sun TV show.
by user
Thursday Mar 28th, 2002 5:13 PM
Listen now:
Embed code:
Download audio:
Download audio
reasonabledoubts911.mp3 12.2MB

Due to numerous complaints on this forum, I decided to make the MP3 clip from the above RealMedia file. I guess missing out on a low-quality video wouldn't bother many people, but the sound is there, and tha's what matters the most.

Enjoy!
by charlie dimech
Thursday Mar 28th, 2002 6:09 PM
the injustice of misinformation which has paralysed the great american spirit can be countered using the email addresses of all of americas community newspapers they could counter the policy of the mainstream media which is feed them bullshit and keep them in the dark only if people like yourselves open up this channel. your sincerely,
charlie dimech
by Becky
Thursday Mar 28th, 2002 7:46 PM
In the video there is reasonable doubt raised by two participants that such a huge "cover up" or "conspiracey" could exist that would deny any "major media" coverage of the real facts underlying the 9-11 story. The recent attack on FTW's site copvcia.com forcing it to be mirrored to stay up raises a serious question from the other perspective. Is there any way in which we can actually ensure that ANY of this truth gets out to the people? Clearly, AOL/Time Warner stock prices are not the issue, nice bluff though. The issue is that every single media outlet of the "major media" is involved and the race to bury the truth is a big stakes game. I have heard from radio broadcasters and others in local media that the enforecment of their "proper coverage" has been intense and unrelenting. Who is going to be as brave a Mike Ruppert and continue to insist that the truth come out? Keep up the incredible good work, Vision TV, we Americans are depending on you!!
by         
(          ) Friday Mar 29th, 2002 12:31 AM
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/30/terrorist/index.html
by Finito
Friday Mar 29th, 2002 9:25 AM
It's obvious that no Jumbo Jet struck the Pentagon because apart from anything else there is no debris, no bodies, no wings, engines, nothing. Even events like Lockerbie gave up masses of debris, any Jet liner that nose dives into the ground gives up wreckage. In the Pentagon incident there is none of this at all, nothing! The Pentagon said that the Jumbo flew just feet off the ground and SLID! into the Pentagon 1st floor. If this was the case why are there no HUGE gouge marks in the Pentagon lawn leading up to the point of impact directly AFTER the incident; where we are watching the first fire truck arrive before the collapse of the structure? Why is it that the very next day the Pentagon ordered that the lawn where there was no debris, no bodies, no nothing, be covered entirely with sand? Start asking basic questions and you start to find very large holes in a very bad B Movie script. Doesn't anybody remember JFK, RFK, Pearl Harbour, Panama, Noriega, Watergate, Bill Clinton resolute on "I did not have sexual relations with that woman ML???? HONEST!, Iran-Contra, Bay of Pigs, Waco, Vietnam-CIA cocaine in body bags etc etc etc... Need I really go on, and people turn around after all that and say- "You *really* think they would pull something like this off without telling *us* the all knowing *public*?! Errrrrrrr....

Afghanistan? I've got a few words for you .
Oil Pipeline and Opium! (Watch this space!)

Gulf War? Bush family owned Oil company, ZAPATA, was one of the Kuwaiti Oil companies under threat.

Osama? CIA operative... Bin Laden family close connections to the Bush family... Oil = Oil = 911 = NWO = ass kicking around the planet with a Global army doing to the world legitimately what Hitler did to Europe illigitamately. They learned allot from Hitler on how to get the job done properly, after the OSS through Allan Dulles absorbed the Nazi intelligence machine post WW2 and renamed it the C.I.A. Now we're *really* cooking with gas. Whose Kissinger you ask?

The dodgy election voting scandal during Dubbya's election campaign against Al Gore? Guess whose state that problem occured in...Why baby brother, Governor Jeb Bush' state of Florida! Whoopeee!!!!

Last Week Bush announces the activation of the Shadow Government! Congress was not aware of this and in effect this means that there are now two governments operating in the U.S. One is a foreign one, A Shadow, and the other legitimate. Why would Bush choose to activate a Shadow Government at a time when Afghanistan is all but put down and under the thumb? Why not just go on with the Government you've already got, unless you fear something happening to the current government, or you intend to overthrow it? Why is that all notions of capturing Osama bin laden are now low priority but instead we are being asked to cast our eyes on Iraq and Saddam again? Could Oil be the common denominator here? Why has the Bush clan failed to bring one key person behind the 911 attacks to justice and seem less and less overt with that line of rhetoric as the days march on? How can there be two governments active in a country where this is Constitutionally (Executive order override?) forbidden? Coup detat!

Have a good look around sometime cause it's amazing what you'll find. Thats about all I will say full stop about this thread, the rest is up to you. Enjoy...

by mkultraicecapmelting
Friday Mar 29th, 2002 11:01 AM
CIA, MI5, Israeli spies, bombs, terrorists, right, left, conservative, liberal...the icecaps are melting, sliding off in "new hampshire" sized chunks. So, let's say we find out yes, or no, it was a big conspiracy, what happens then? Who do we hang? Will it stop the REAL disaster that is coming, most likely, in our own lifetimes, and most certainly in the life times of our children?
In a few short years the oil index will drop, the demand will excede the supply, there will be no more "gluts". And gee, the entire petrochemical industrial nexus will begin to implode just as the worst affects of global warming kick in. Hundreds of millions of refugees crawling inward or northward into countries that don't want them. Entire forests disappearing, escalation of species extinction and the beginning of our own.
Maybe Mike Ruppert is absolutley right.
Maybe it doesn't matter one iota as little as 10 years after.
But...I just got off the phone with my ex wife and it always leaves me feeling...lousy.
by Manchurian Candy Date
( snowmance [at] yahoo.com ) Friday Mar 29th, 2002 2:43 PM
Many reasons for war, serving multiple purposes for multiple masters.

April Glaspie was sent to tell Saddam "The United States has no opinion on Inter Arab conflicts". Translation, my president, GHW Bush, your pal, says he doesn't give a durn if you invade Kuwait.

Bush wanted Saddam to invade Kuwait. Why?

1) Iraq

a. False Reason:

Protect the world from a tyrant in search of weapons of mass destruction. This argument would be a bit more believable if what WOMD he had he hadn't gotten from US.

b. True Reason
Give the House of Saud security, and use that as an excuse to finish the air fields that had been starte long before
Desert Shield. The real reason why Saddam was not deposed was because if he had been there would have been no reason to have an embargo and keep Iraqi oil off of the market, thereby falsely inflating oil prices.

2) Kuwait

a) False Reason
To protect and innocent people from a bald faced act of agresion.

Kuwaiti's were not innocent. They were drilling into oil under Iraqi soil. There were legitimate disputes that both countries had with each other that could have been solved diplomatically.

b) True Reason

Kuwait had $100,000,000,000 easy in cash. They were messing with the money markets, taking away the manipulated predictability and profitability that the London, NY, Bon banks enjoyed for years. They were making a killing. Remember that Bush's family is also from a long line of bankers.

Double edged sword. Saddam "contained", Kuwait given something else to do with it's money (i.e., pay for Desert Storm), US uses UN to legitimize entire operation, and a state of the art launching pad for future operations is establilshed for future military operations in ME.

The most fascinating thing to me is that Bush lost the election. This was because, ostensible, Perot threw his hat in the ring and took whateve chance Bush had away. Perot hated Bush and wanted to stop him, he no doubt was approached by someone....it is why he picked that daft old fart for his vp...to make sure he didn't get too many votes and not have any candidate get over 40% of the vote.

We can only hope that some kind of "correction" is rising out of the bowels of our ruling elite against the current Bush strides to expand the militirazed empire that few Americans I think would vote for if they knew what it was.




by sara
Friday Mar 29th, 2002 7:44 PM
Do a quick Google search for “Taliban”, “Afghanistan” and “oil pipeline”, and you will find newspapers dating back to the mid 1990s .
by A Solution
Friday Mar 29th, 2002 11:21 PM
Here's what I would like to see happen: Hawaii, which already has a secessionist movement, should secede from the U.S. Washington will have a fit! Then Alaska should break away, then California. Bush, who thinks that we can give aid and comfort to Taiwan, because after all, if they choose to be separate why shouldn't they be, will declare war on Hawaii. And if nothing else, this will show blatantly to the world the hypocrisy of the U.S., the great protector of (*cough*) democracy. If we could get enough states to break away, all the doe that Washington receives every year at about this time to maintain its military power will start to dry up. I think the U.S. is just TOO big and powerful and we need to cut it down to size...
by Magoo
Saturday Mar 30th, 2002 9:53 PM
Speaking of the Germans in WW2, didn't they confiscate guns from all private citizens?
by Johnnya
Sunday Mar 31st, 2002 2:17 AM
No, they didn't.
by Finito
Sunday Mar 31st, 2002 10:33 AM

They didn't have to, they just heavily fluoridated all the public water systems instead...
by daryl wakeham
( darylwakeham [at] hotmail.com ) Sunday Mar 31st, 2002 12:32 PM
One of the main tenets of any military force is to ensure that its soldiers, at most levels, are sufficiently angry that they will not question any orders. The destruction of the twin towers and the subsequent images of 9/11 have insured that the armed forces of the United States and its allies will act within the realms of what it sees as a legitimate right to vengeance: regardless of the complicity of its leaders in bringing about or allowing the attack to take place in the first place. There were just too many gains for this regime to stop the attack: a barely legitimate President gets his war and his legitimacy; a failing economy is revitilized; eyes are looking the wrong way when it comes to internal political and economic betrayals (ENRON); internal descent is muffled and labeled as being unpatroitic; prison building is increased; military goals are met; the CIA gets its renewed mandate to behave in a despicable manner and the budget to enforce it; oil interests are served; Islam is demonized and America gets to "kick ass" whereever it needs to. I'm sorry but this guy seems to make sense. The only reason I have to doubt him is that he is still alive or not in prison.
by daryl wakeham
( darylwakeham [at] hotmail.com ) Sunday Mar 31st, 2002 12:32 PM
One of the main tenets of any military force is to ensure that its soldiers, at most levels, are sufficiently angry that they will not question any orders. The destruction of the twin towers and the subsequent images of 9/11 have insured that the armed forces of the United States and its allies will act within the realms of what it sees as a legitimate right to vengeance: regardless of the complicity of its leaders in bringing about or allowing the attack to take place in the first place. There were just too many gains for this regime to stop the attack: a barely legitimate President gets his war and his legitimacy; a failing economy is revitilized; eyes are looking the wrong way when it comes to internal political and economic betrayals (ENRON); internal descent is muffled and labeled as being unpatroitic; prison building is increased; military goals are met; the CIA gets its renewed mandate to behave in a despicable manner and the budget to enforce it; oil interests are served; Islam is demonized and America gets to "kick ass" whereever it needs to. I'm sorry but this guy seems to make sense. The only reason I have to doubt him is that he is still alive or not in prison.
by al
Sunday Mar 31st, 2002 3:32 PM
ruppert was very well prepared, in the documented vidio. he specifically provided incrediable evidence to support his position, his opponents, tried unsucessfully to stump him. in fact they too were enlighten as to what really happened and why on 911
by peekaboo
Sunday Mar 31st, 2002 9:14 PM
From our beloved Adbusters, "Just because you're not paranoid, doesn't mean you're not being stroboscopically photographed from space."
by zooloo
Monday Apr 1st, 2002 2:25 AM
How many times do we find a liar saying, 'oh you know, i've had a change of heart, i've been lying all this time and i'm going to change now, and to prove that to you im going to tell you all the things ive been lying about so we can get back on track'........ like practically NEVER......... these jokers in the whitehouse, with SO MUCH BLOOD ON THEIR HANDS, will stop at nothing, will continue to lie, and make bigger and bigger lies, until they think they are safe...... problem with liars is that the more lies told, the harder it is to remember them all and their evidence continues to mount...... bush, cheney, ashcroft, bumsfield....... these are some of the world's biggest war criminals..... that is the truth... and it is known to many... and to more and more every day. Lets stand up for real democracy and real justice. Our collective human society and life on this planet depend on it. Just think how much better things could be!!!
by zooloo
Monday Apr 1st, 2002 3:12 AM
From what i read, i completely 100% support mkultra's comments (i have alot of the same information), and i find erics not worthy of comment. I stand in the camp of love..... forever. z
by Kenyon Gibson
Monday Apr 1st, 2002 3:32 AM
I find Mike Ruppert's work credible.
After spending 4 years of research on hemp,
DuPont, Hearst and DuPont, it is a given that
the mainstream press is not always honest.
Wars make money, and whipping the citizenry
into a patriotic frenzy is one job of the press.
Who owns much of the press?

For insights into DuPont, Hearst and Mellon, read
my on the Hancock House website-
http://www.hancockhouse.com
go to new releases for fall, click
Hemp for Victory.

Many of the people mentioned- Mellon, DuPont,
Nazis, GM, had ties to Prescott Bush.
In fact, under the Trading with the Enemy Act of 1942,
good old Prescott had his property confiscated
by who? By the US government. Seems that
investigation of assets is a very logical process,
and if such investigation were applied to 911,
many Americans would get a shock.
You think 43 is a good Christian?
Christ gave us many warnings, and one
of the very 12 apostles proved to be not such a
good Christian...the one with all the money!

Does 43 betray America with a kiss of patriotic zeal
as he counts his silver?

Kenyon Gibson
by mkultra
Monday Apr 1st, 2002 7:53 AM
If Arafat is completely isolated, where are all these suicide bombers coming from? Find it hard to believe Israeli security is that lax. We are witnessing things that are shocking - more shocking than OJ or Jon Benet or the death of Unble Milty. I look at the evening news and the little inner voice says, "This is it". Terrorism is terrorism, whether the bombs are being detonated by women who have lost everything or by pilots guiding smart bombs that blow up bridges that ruin infratructure that later cause some kid to starve to death or get yellow fever because his undeveloped nation just got pulverized.
What is it Sharon seeks? Why is it happening now? During desert storm the Israeli's were remarkably restrained, so were the Palestinians? We have to remember the origins of this intifada, and the background of Sharon, who is a war criminal by any definition of the word.
I can't help but feel that there is more than a coincidental connection between America's war on terror and Israels war on Arafat. Yet they don't kill him. Why? Same reason we didn't kill Saddam. Arafat gives the Palestinians an ugly face for us to fear and loathe. The Mossad has been unsuccesful in penetrating PLO, but Hammas is their play thing.
I have a friend from Macedonia, he tells me things...he whispers when he says them. We hunt al-queda in Afghanistan, but support KLA terrorists in the balkans...right now. It is all about pipe lines and drug routes.
Bush administration is all about OIL, DOPE, and ARMS. Can't move arms without conflict. Can't undermine developing nations if they build a true democracy. Can't control economy and resources of other countries without puppet dictators. Keep everything destabilized so that they need US "help".
I wonder how these people sleep at night?
Then get up in the morning to throw out the first pitch of the season.
To them it must only work if they feel they are fulfilling their destiny, implementing the larger plan of the grand scheme.

Then what are we?

How come none of our media mentions the fact that in 1994 Arafat shared the Nobel Peace Prize with Shimon Peres and Yitzak Rabin? And that Peres and Rabin revilled Sharon, who, let's face it, makes Moshe Dayan look like a cub scout.
The BIG FIX is being implemented.
We are being used every bit as much as anyone in Afghanistan.
The Kennedy assasination is child's play compared to what has been happening since election night. It is interesting to me that Gore did not "lie down" during the election, but has ever since. It was a true power struggle, however, it was only a power struggle within the oligarchy. It's all a poker game to them that they all play in the same country club...once in a while they let someone else in like Clinton or even Reagan to make it look like they aren't all the stooges they really are.
But this is different than VietNam.
And I'll be damned if I swallow that line that they plan on selling all the oil to China.
Casper Weinberger, the man Daddy Bush pardoned, was stumping last year talking about how all our efforts had to be directed toward an inevitable military showdown with China.
It's on their plate. The main course.
Then, total world domination. Absolute control, as billions perish from plague, starvation, and the complex management of dozens of wars by the proxy NATO and ultimately the UN.
Bet the 700 Club is doing gangbuster business right now.
But hey, every day we aren't in the streets is one day closer to the End.
Problems is, if we know that if we try to put any daisies in those rifle barrels now...we'll get bullet right between the eyes.
by The Ace of Spades
Monday Apr 1st, 2002 1:56 PM
There is an old Oriental saying "one hand washes the other." An idea like organised World Trade is dangerous to all those who like to jack up their rates on a whim. I would rather see one building fall than the whole economy. Or the kind of subterranian explosion on a fault line that can crack the capital dome of Bill Gates' Seattle to stop people from punching women in the face in their silly riots. The rich and powerful are in the same bed and not at each others throats as we are led to believe. Yes it takes collateral damage to make it run smoothly so everyone can enjoy life in each country. They kill ten birds with one stone not just two. The likes of Bin Laden Sr. and Bush Sr. uphold one credo, "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law," because they are on a self appointed mission surrounded by instigators who depend upon them to protect their interests. As long as people do not react to the truth it is okay to speak it. A sad thing is someone, who when suddenly faced with the glaring truth goes to a church and shoots a bunch of kids. Maybe it is best just to put free thinkers in mental institiutions or at least discredit them for the safety of everyone. Does anyone know how entirely corrupt Fire Dept.s are in major ports? The amount of wasted fuel or the delicate balance of the economy? I didnt watch the video but the guy probably should have kept it to his self. What most people don't know won't hurt them why cant the rest just deal with it?
by Ruth Ann
Monday Apr 1st, 2002 2:49 PM
Hello,
There are so many comments on this page I don't know if anybody will get to this one. I am an American, and since 911 I have been affraid, not from foreign terrorism, but affraid of my own government. I am so affraid of my government that I don't have the time or energy left over to be affraid of foreigners. I know that my government was behind the 911 attacks. They at least let it happen to justify their going to war for oil in the Caspian Sea area. It's called ,"Pipeline Poker" or "The Great Game" Just look up those key words and you can begin your own research into the truth. Or type in "Caspian Sea Oil". And, I know that eventually my government is going to terrorise it's own people further, so that they can continue to push there agenda forward. The people of America are orphaned. We have no real government representing our interests here at home. We don't have a government that is concerned about the peoples interests or their well being. We are quickly losing all of our rights. This is now Nazi America where Government and Big business are one. It is Criminal Politics. And we have a "Media industrial Complex" that keeps most Americans in the dark. Those of us who have found out the truth are double affraid. Americans need the help of as many people as possible from around the world who have more access to real news and the truth. Many of you may say we don't care what happens to Americans, but I tell you This trend is not going to stop here. The Globalists and World Bankers are salivating eager to persue their Predatory Capitalism across the world at large. And it is not just the American rich elite behind it . This trend is Global in Network.
by Ruth Ann
Monday Apr 1st, 2002 2:56 PM
I wanted to add one more piece of information to support what Mike Ruppert Said. Please go to "Flight93Crash.com" and read all the links to newspaper articles that pjrove that the flight over Shanksville Pennsylvania was in fact shot down by an F16. The government yes shot it down and look how much control of the media they have to keep it quiet. I live near that crash site. I know what happened.
by Gerry
Monday Apr 1st, 2002 3:42 PM

Well Eric ol' buddy, I guess you must be feeling a little like Davy Crockett at the Alamo right about now.

I downloaded your article on Psyops - very interesting and informative, but it's a double-edged sword.
Everything there applies equally to your arguments as well.
The government already told us before the Afghan invasion began that they were going to lie to us (for security reasons, of course) and the Internet is full of weirdos, whackos and misfits... so... who ARE we to believe?

Well, I for one believe President Bush.

Hell, he's the first president in YEARS to actually live up to his campaign rhetoric.
For the naysayers out there, here's a few statements he made during the course of the 2000 Presidential Election campaign: -

"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator."
(Go George, go!...)

"I believe we are on an irreversible trend toward more freedom and democracy - but that could change..."
(Hey.... the man shows flexibility - he's not just some dogmatic idealogue...)

"Let me reiterate what I've told the American people and the world. We will use whatever means are necessary to achieve our objective."
(He defintiely IS a man of his word...he puts his [OUR tax] money where his mouth is..)

"There ought to be limits to freedom!"
(Enter Big John Ashcroft......)

"When it is all said and done, I will have made more money than I ever dreamed I would make."
(Along with the rest of the Carlyle Group...)

"People that are really very weird can get into sensitive positions and have a tremendous impact on history."
(No Comment...)

"A low voter turnout is an indication of fewer people going to the polls."
(Especialy in Florida, I guess....)

--GW Bush, Second presidential debate, Oct. 11, 2000

And again on Oct.27th -

"Anyway, after we go out and work our hearts out, after you go out and help us turn out the vote, after we've convinced the good Americans to vote, and while they're at it, pull that old George W. lever, if I'm the one, when I put my hand on the Bible, when I put my hand on the Bible, that day when they swear us in, when I put my hand on the Bible, I will swear to not to uphold the laws of the land."
(He's aced THAT one!...)

--GW Bush, Toledo, Ohio, Oct. 27, 2000

"When I was coming up, it was a dangerous world, and you knew exactly who they were," he said. "It was us vs. them, and it was clear who them was. Today, we are not so sure who the they are, but we know they're there."
(Ya see .... he saw 'em coming even if the CIA, FBI and INS didn't..... )

--GW Bush - Iowa Western Community College, Jan 21, 2000


As to the people that believe he might have been part of a conspiracy to bring about the events of 9-11 ..... the man is just not that smart.
He's a politician, not a Black Ops Specialist.

But I digress ..... we were discussing credible news sources!

I also believe former CIA Director Robert Gates, who in early January this year gave a seminar on various topics, including the ongoing War on Terror.

When asked about the truth to the October 31st 2001 news report that Osama Bin Laden was paid a visit by the local CIA Staion Chief while laid up in a Dubai hospital the previous July (and did nothing to capture him), he replied;

"I guess if the French reported it, then it must be true."

This is NOT hearsay. I was present, along with about a hundred other people, hanging on his every word.
And as Mr Gates is currently Dean of the GH Bush School of Government at the U of Texas, he ought to be taken at his word.

For me, the credibilty of the Western news media in general was delt a severe blow with its handling of the Tienanmen Square Massacre in 1989. Like everyone else, I believed the spin given that the student revolt in Beijing was a pro-democracy demostration in solidarity with Eastern Europe, where Communism was collapsing along with the Berlin Wall, only to be crushed by the repressive Chinese regime.

After the Hong Kong takeover in 1997, I worked and lived in Beijing for six months, where I met and spoke with many local citizens, foreign ex-patriates and various Embassy officials, all of whom were there at the time.
They told me quite a different story.

The Chinese Government, in keeping with its policy of pro-Western economic reform, had cut funding for university students.
The students then took to the streets with their little Red Books and accused the Government of betraying Mao's Revolution, so far from being progressive democrats, these were dyed-in-the-wool reactionaries, insisting the Government go back to the "good old days" of hard-line Marxism. One of the immutable laws of China then took over; make a Chinaman lose face - and he will kill you for it. The students knew this even as they sat in at Tiananmen Square while the troops and tanks gathered in the capital.

The Western media took the story and.... well, we were wagged on this one.

Since this occurred, the media has been concentrated into even fewer hands (thanks to a compliant Congress) and is now more orchestrated than ever. Even the new Middle-eastern rival to CNN, the now famous Al-Jazeera in Qatar, turns out to be owned by ... wait for it ... The Carlyle Group. (Who'da thunk it, eh Buddy?)

Given that we can't trust the media or the internet, Mike Ruppert is just as credible as anyone else these days, and given that someone is going to great effort to hack his site, it just adds to it.

It comes down to this: Calm down, get rid of the anger of 9-11, analyse the news, think about it and USE YOUR INTUITION. Figure out who REALLY benefits from what's happened; that'll give you the best clues. Wars NEVER come out of a clear blue sky; they need a great deal of planning, and this one was obviously in the works as far back as 1997.
And until September 11th, all that was needed was the excuse to commence the hostilities.

Most importantly, don't let the war over there distract you from the governmental slight of hand over here which is demolishing the Bill of Rights, subverting the Constituion and turning the Republic into Empire, not just in the USA, but in ALL the Liberal Democracies; the UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and India. This on-going coup is world-wide.

Hey there Eric ol' buddy, if the number of your postings is any measure of your patriotism, then you win the award hands down!

However .... my Uncle Murray (an or'nery ol' buzzard at the best of times) offered a more cynical explanation for your emotive, abusive and disruptive postings ... now 'fess up here Eric ... you wouldn't be working for the FBI/CIA would ya? .... Would ya?

Say it ain't so Eric .....

Ten Four Good Buddy!

Gerry



by zooloo
Monday Apr 1st, 2002 4:40 PM
Ruth Ann, you are a wonderful person. Thankyou for your courage to call a spade a spade. We are the people. And as such, we have the power to remove those from office who are corrupt and not serving us. More than you know are in the know. Peace and love.

As for Eric, yes, do tell us who you work for. But of course i would expect you to lie if you work for the Cia. Lying to us is in our best interest isn't it. God, that is so whacked. Z
by person
Tuesday Apr 2nd, 2002 6:55 PM
Eric FBI\CIA I got that impression also,

"How dare you spew your libelous drivel and blame him for these attacks. I don't mind you attacking me, but have some respect the victims, the American people (that adamantly support him), and the man himself you fucking lowlife loser"

A text book answer. But wanting to find out who is reponsible for their deaths & who knew before the event shows great respect for the victims.

Eric may be one of those helpful people whos job is to discredit people who think for themselves & dont believe what is feed to them by CNN BBC etc. (He will reply with something like you paranoid morons or someone will come out of nowhere and defend him)

Also I wish major media would stop getting old footage and placing it in current stories for added effect its getting a little old, and as for those WELL TIMED ad breaks when someone is about to mention a certin group or event, they just scream media control.

As for Bushee and his bar snack problem im pleased to see not all Americans believe that crap from my end of the world its quite obvious he owes his Burbon supplier money...lol

Why dont major terrorist groups follow the lead of the School of the Americas(W.h.i.s.c) and just change their name and remove their past?

Crude oil value has increased again because of middle east tension time to cash in some shares and get some burbon & Coke er........cola.


Disclaimer
Thank You for reading my dribble because thats all it is, the Guavamints knows whats best for me and I dont know shit cause I have none smarts, Fankyou Guavamints of the world for taking care of us and forcing us with acts of force to give you money because I would have just wasted it.

And Fankyou secret organannizseations for helping yourselves and us for the good of the human race.

P.S I have discredit myself so the agents can have a break & relax. enjoy : -)



by person
Tuesday Apr 2nd, 2002 7:11 PM
P.P.S When sea levels rise by seven metres and my house becomes a water park can I please live with one of those nice oil men.

fankyou
by Tod
( tumuchpow [at] hotmail.com ) Tuesday Apr 2nd, 2002 7:36 PM
Is all this violence reallyu creating a healthy culture? Our children around the world are going to enherit the ultimate, pinacle change this planet has ever seen: Molecular Technology and Spiratual awareness.
For anyone who has read all angles of media concerning the terrible current affairs around the world, the realization of an imperialistic regime lobying for control is evident.
We, as young global people, need to support grassroots - our physical neighbours.
The Affairs of our Western Governments continually contradict the best interests of the people living within. Remember, the successful leaders of our communities rely on the systems our capatilistic governement have developed......they will be the voice, not the popular opinion.
by jones
Tuesday Apr 2nd, 2002 8:45 PM
I'll let you in on a secret. There is no gloabla warming, just ius there is no ozone depletion caused by CFcs etc
by mkultra
Wednesday Apr 3rd, 2002 7:22 AM
Responding to Jones.
Please let us in on your reasons for claiming there is no global warming, and no ozone depletion. Please let us know, because if what you say is true, I could definitely sleep better at night.It reminds me of the story of the guy who's sister lived across the street from the men's club where John Gotti's gang hung out. She just happened to get this little apartment right across the street. He freaked out when he realized where his sister lived. Then, on the 4th of July, some wise guy had a wheel barrow full of fireworks, which he doused with gas and then threw his lit cigar into the pile. Rockets and little explosions were going everywhere. Gotti and all the wise guys were out front, watching, laughing. A bottle rocket came in through the apartment window and almost hit the guy's nephew. Angry, he dialed New York Metro 911. Gotti had been on the new...a LOT. When he finally got a dispatcher on the line and complained that Gotti and the mafia were indiscirminately lighting off fireworks in the street he was told.

"Sir, there is no such thing as the mafia".
(ref July 2000 issue of Utne Review)

What a relief! No mafia? No Global Warming? Then maybe there is no CIA? No Echelon? No October Suprise? No Operation Black Eagle? No Fiances de la Muerte? No American training of death squads? No Claus Barbie we protected for 40 years? No Shadow government? No Federal Reserve Board that has no constitutional reason to exist? No Panama Deception? No recurring corporate pig out of our treasury every time a Republican is put in the White House?

Tell us it all isn't so, Jones, enlilghten us if you will.
by Socrates
( jtj46 [at] juno.com ) Wednesday Apr 3rd, 2002 10:27 AM
Right on, buddy, until the "our dying democracy" bit. That would be great, if true, but therein lies a tale. The political base was transformed from a constitutional republic to a democratic (socialist) dictatorship during A. Lincoln's administration, in the 1860s. Congress retired "sine die", when those from the confederate states walked out , and has never been officially reinstated. The masses have been so corrupted that, until they are made so miserable that they are forced to emerge to some degree from their trance, they are, as you say (was that you?) livestock.
by Bat Puchanin
Wednesday Apr 3rd, 2002 11:51 AM
"The political base was transformed from a constitutional republic to a democratic (socialist) dictatorship."

Haha. Are you one of those nuts who claims "democracy" is a communist plot?

That schtick about Abe Lincoln sounds like something off the CCC site.

Although he it seems like he did act as a dictator, and it wasn't a bunch of saints that led to the Posse Comitatus Act being passed, something that seems to be endangered as of late. *shudder*


Anyway, can you explain to me why a Greek word (democracy) and a Latin one (republic) originally described basically the same thing -- systems of political organisation, in which the common factor was the selection of leaders by voting?

http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=republic

by Smith
Wednesday Apr 3rd, 2002 8:49 PM
None of these is real.....we are in the "Matrix."
by simms
Wednesday Apr 3rd, 2002 10:31 PM

i live in quebec and for some reason can't connect either. it'd be smarter to just post up the whole file for download. it's not like we're gonna sell it.

as for the references to 1939.. i don't think we need (or can, really) compare the current situation to anything we know of very well.
what we need to be doing instead is getting a good grip on ourselves and getting involved in SOMETHING, no matter how seemingly minute.

incidentally, a lot of ruppert's claims are credible and fairly well-documented. it would be wise to keep them in mind -- i refer here to the stock-related stuff mostly. look it up.
by James Granger
( trentonjg [at] aol.com ) Friday Apr 5th, 2002 10:49 AM
Let's see, the "official version" of 911 goes something like this:

"Nineteen Arab 'terrorists' hijacked four planes. Two of the planes were crashed into the WTC (causing them to fall down); one was crashed into the Pentagon; and one was crashed as a result of the heroic action of the passengers in Pennsylvania. There was no advanced warning of the attacks."

What's wrong with this picture?

1. Of the 19 Arab "terrorists" identified (Does anybody know how they were identified?), one had been dead for two years, and at least five others were found alive and well in the Mideast.

2. Documents from the alleged hijackers just so happened to survive the WTC crashes, the fireball and the collapse of the twin towers to fall into US Government hands and confirm the official story.

3. Even establishment organs such as the Wash. Post and the NY Times have documented that at least two Odigo (an Israeli communications company) received advanced warning of the attacks. At a minimum, therefore, someone who wanted to warn Israelis and/or Americans did have advance warning of the attacks.

4. All the billions of dollars in defense spending couldn't manage to get a single interceptor in the air to protect the nation's capital or its richest city; even though an AFB (Andrews) sits ten minutes from the White House and had two fighter wings stationed there at the time of the attack.

5. Nobody really knows why the WTC fell. The WTC, which had changed owners weeks before the crash and had been newly insured, fell down in a pattern that has been described as a "demolition" by engineers. The official version is that the structural steel melted. Steel melts at about 1400C. Jet fuel burns at between 100-800C. The fire had essentially burned out and was only smoking at the time of the collapse. Most of the jet fuel on the second WTC crash went OUTSIDE the building. Is there a physics problem here?

6. The approximately 200 Israeli art students who were caught making mysterious visits to government facilities and were deported before and after 911 "for immigration violations" just so happened to be domiciled quite near to the domiciles of the alleged "terrorist" hijackers.

7. The flight instructors at the flight schools where the alleged "terrorists" were enrolled--to a man--said that none of the Arabs could fly very well. The WTC crashes involved no problem with navigation or maneuvering. The Pentagon crash involved a high speed turn.

8. Dubya said at least twice that he watched the first WTC crash live--even though it wasn't televised live. He was so concerned at the time that he finished reading stories to school children while the second plane hit and the Pentagon crash occurred.

Given the above, and about a quadzillion other reasons, it is apparent that (a) the FACT of prior knowledge (and therefore a conspiracy) is apparent; and (2) ergo, the official version is invalid.
by Demon Strater
Friday Apr 5th, 2002 11:09 AM
strikes600a.jpg
strikes600a.jpg

http://pub97.ezboard.com/bbushsecrets

http://www.geocities.com/tigre35

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bushcon4/

They have actual documents and audio files and photos and articles and forums.
by mistermystery
( unoudunfukdup [at] blackplanet.com ) Friday Apr 5th, 2002 4:45 PM
Fukwhatchutalkinbout ! It's obvious ignorance is still one of lifes deadliest cancers, and you and your like minded associates are as clueless as the racist in the oval office !
Keep it up Mike, The Revolution is Here Now !
by Eric
Friday Apr 5th, 2002 6:01 PM
I absolutely love it! Amazing! How did you guys find me out?? Was it that obvious? Okay, I'll let you all in on the truth. I mean, I can't lie to you guys, you're all too smart for me, and of course the agency. The truth is, well yes, I'm a CIA operative sent here to create tension and disbelief among you all and your highly accurate theories of widespread government corruption and tyranny.

You guys are so smart! Brilliant!

Do you really think the CIA or FBI would take an interest in this bullshit forum or ridiculous web org?

Don't flatter yourselves!

Are you guys really serious? You can't be. But thanks! I'm definately flattered that some of you would come to that conclusion.

Like I said, "I'm nobody special". Don't be bothered or concerned about me or my posts. Write me off as a loser. Just some idiot that doesn't know shit from shinola. Just a regular joe. Don't worry.

Nice job thinking for yourselves. You're all obviously doing a great job.

Idiots.
by Jonathan
Friday Apr 5th, 2002 10:05 PM
Its a fact, on the night of September 11th, Cheney and his people were on Cipro. For those of you ignorant enough to not know what Cipro is, well it is the antibiotic that people take in case of an Anthrax attack. This was several weeks before the first attack of Anthrax!!!
Now, all of you punks that write in talking about how we are all full of shit, well, then explain to me how the Government knew there was going to be an Anthrax attack before it even happened? Is Cheney still on Cipro?
by Jonathan
Friday Apr 5th, 2002 10:23 PM
All you punks are completely missing the point....Okay, lets say the 9-11 attacks were not planned by our Government, there is still the chance that the Government is using the events of 9-11 as a pretext for control. Look folks, the facts are here: Passing of the Patriot Act, Face-Scanning Cameras on the Mall in DC, Full-Body Scanning Cameras in Orlando, Fla. airports. Here are the facts, people, this is no BS. This is stuff you read about in Orwell's, 1984. But if you inbreeds had enough since to read books like that, you'd know why we are all so pissed off. You are the IDIOT. Just take your freaking inplantable microchip just like the Jews took their markings and tatoos from the Nazi's. Its right here in your face and you folks can't even see it.
by Perry Winkle
Saturday Apr 6th, 2002 2:01 AM
How many other people you know that go to sites that are utterly antithetical to everything they stand for and spend hours reading every message and typing like a madman, trying desperately to make himself the focus of the discussion thread instead of the issue at hand? Doesn't seem like rational behavior for anyone but a disinformation agent if you ask me.

Lest we forget there are decent and honest people everywhere, including the CIA, the special forces and elsewhere. Ruppert has good information on the unprecedented number of special forces men who refused to run addictive drugs and what happened to them. It's likely that since 9/11 there have been many who have been similarly martyred for their consciences--lift a drink and send a prayer for them wherever they are.

Anyhoo, I recommend all who seek a larger context for recent apalling events to take a gander at the following books, in the following order: 1. The Gods of Eden by Bramley, 2. The Franklin Federal Cover-Up by Decamp, and 3. Children of the Matrix by David Icke.

Recently Michael Moore has been sounding some of the same themes as Michael Ruppert at his signings. Stupid White Men is the number one book in the U.S. and Canada. One in three viewers polled by C-Span thought the Bin Laden tape was a fake. Less than 25% of the population voted for Dubya. In other words, there never was and never will be an 80% approval rating for the guy, we are the majority, always have been and they are the ones who should fear arrest.

By the way, does anyone know why there was no identifiable airplane wreckage in any photos or footage I saw of the pentagon disaster? Or why none of the hundreds of security cameras around the Pentagon apparently recorded the event? Just curious.

Ever wonder why the NY memorial light display was switched on by a 13 year old girl, lasts exactly 33 days, ending on the 13th? Gotta be a coincidence just like that 9/11 thing. Forget I even mentioned it. But, ya know, those two beams of light look an awful lot like...oh never mind.
by Donna C. Lee
( donnaclee [at] sprynet.com ) Saturday Apr 6th, 2002 5:04 AM
After reading Mr Granger's "What's wrong with this picture?", I had to write and mentiion something along the 'same line' , that I've been thinking about since Sept 11th.
I am perplexed and have been since Sept 12th on one thing; within only 24 hours after the attacks on the 11th, we were told, exactly who was responsible for the attacks! I find this incredulous, since EVERYONE in volved in the attacks WAS DEAD! How in the "Hell" did our government make this fantastic discovery with none of the 'key' people involved, not able to speak?
If you think about this, you'll wonder as well; the hyjack terrorists who crashed the planes were all dead with all the other passengers, so the first thing, where did this 'investigation' even start; and second, how were they able to tell us 'who was responsible' so quickly? This doesn't seem possible, to be able to complete an investagation like this in only 24 hours---it's definitely something that makes you 'scratch your head'.


by Mark Elsis
( Mark [at] MyCountryRightOrWrong.net ) Saturday Apr 6th, 2002 12:44 PM
To better understand September 11, 2001, take a good look at the following websites: My Country Right Or Wrong -- Questioning September 11th http://www.MyCountryRightOrWrong.net Hundreds Of Articles With Videos, Photos, Polls And Petition Http://www.AttackOnAmerica.net The Three Top Sins Of The Universe http://www.September112001.net LOVEARTH NETWORK Connecting Through 1000+ EcoHumanePolitical Websites http://www.Lovearth.net With Love Mark Elsis
by Bocephus Fudpucker
Saturday Apr 6th, 2002 3:10 PM
Re: The "official" story

Quite a "Conspiracy Theory" in itself, eh?
by Zona.
Sunday Apr 7th, 2002 1:51 AM
Ex-agent reveals the truth on 9-11.
By Fri Apr 5 21:51:37 PST 2002


PLEASE DISTRIBUTE WIDELY
Mike Vreeland, ex agent, speaks from Canada
EMERGENCY MESSAGE FROM FTW -- Mike Vreeland Speaks from Canada -- FTW Web Site Hacked in Apparent Attempt to Block This Story

The survival of From the Wilderness may depend upon how quickly this message can be distributed throughout the Internet.

PLEASE DISTRIBUTE WIDELY

FTW INTERVIEW: DELMART MIKE VREELAND

What the CIA Doesn’t Want You to Know

By Michael C. Ruppert

[Ed. Note: Just prior to the publication of this article, the FTW web site was hacked for the second time in a month. This hacking -- accomplished via sophisticated methods -- has been apparently intended to prevent us from publishing the following interview. As a temporary emergency measure ONLY, please direct emergency e-mail correspondence to mikeruppert [at] earthlink.net. FTW will be back up and running in an even more secure manner in the near future. -- MCR]

April 4, 2002, 1:00 PM PST (FTW) -- If all of its dark alleys were explored, the case of Delmart Edward Joseph Mike Vreeland is one which is worthy of a book that would rival War and Peace. It is a case that has sparked zealous attacks on FTW and me personally, and one, which has seriously disturbed many officials in Washington. These attacks are an indication of the threat Vreeland poses to the credibility of the U.S. government. Only one question of any relevance exists. How was this man able to write details that described the events of Sept. 11 while locked in a jail cell, more than a month before the attacks occurred?

It matters little to a homemaker in Kansas if Mike Vreeland has a very confusing criminal arrest record -- some of it contradictory and apparently fabricated -- for a variety of petty criminal offences including fraud. However, it may be a matter of the gravest importance for the same homemaker if this man knew accurate information about the attacks, tried to warn both the U.S. and Canadian governments about them, and was ignored. If a crazy man runs up to you on the street and says that a house is on fire with children trapped inside, and you smell smoke, which is the crazy one if you decide not to investigate.

The U.S. Navy says that Vreeland, arrested in Canada on Dec. 4, 2000 and currently fighting a U.S. extradition warrant, was discharged for unsatisfactory performance after only four months of service in 1986. But a growing pile of evidence, much of it filed in court records and undisputed by Canadian or U.S. authorities, establishes clearly that Vreeland was exactly what he says he was -- a spy.

In three previous stories, FTW has described how his military records, acknowledged in excess of 1,200 pages, have been tampered with. We have described how, in open court on a speakerphone, his lawyers obtained direct confirmation from the Pentagon that he was a Navy officer. We have also reported that, as of March 14, all Canadian charges against Vreeland were dismissed. He was released on bail and granted temporary refugee status by the Canadian government until his battle to beat the U.S. extradition request is settled.

Something that Canadian authorities have never disputed is that Vreeland wrote his ominous and hastily scribbled warning a full month before the attacks, and that the warning was sealed away by his keepers, beyond his reach, until Sept. 14, three days after the attacks.

If he loses his extradition fight, both Vreeland and his attorneys believe that his assassination will occur within days of his return to U.S. soil.

Mike Vreeland is not a saint. Covert operatives are not made from such material, and governments do not recruit or screen candidates for saintly qualities. By his own admission in Canadian court documents and in several conversations with FTW, Vreeland says he has done bad things. He has been on probation for petty offences, and he has behaved the way covert operatives behave in the real world -- not in Hollywood.

I have been studying, interacting with, and talking to covert operatives for more than 25 years. It is for that reason that I avoid some of the questions being raised by dilettantes and neophyte journalists who take all of the threads of Vreeland’s stories and run with them into a wilderness from which no professional journalist could credibly emerge. Yes, I have listened to him talk about so-called red mercury, baseball-sized atom bombs, and Star Wars weapons systems. Yes, I have heard him talk about a great many things, and I believe that what he told me was truthful according to his knowledge of events and the documents he brought back from Moscow in December 2000.

Even by his own statements, Vreeland, now 35, was a relatively low ranking officer and an intelligence field operative. Never in the history of covert operations has any government entrusted field operatives with total strategic knowledge because the knowledge held by those who make the plans is compartmentalized and locked away. Perhaps 80 percent of all intelligence work is disinformation, and governments know that their field operatives risk capture, interrogation, and torture. Quite often field operatives are themselves fed disinformation so that if they talk, they will still spread lies that serve a larger strategic purpose. Quite often, they carry documents that are deliberately inaccurate and their capture is engineered to give those documents credibility.

To the U.S. government, Vreeland is very expendable. In addition, those who run with every piece of information he has disclosed will themselves be proven fools in a fool’s game.

Nevertheless, one question remains. In addition, a question now stands vindicated by time and events. He knew something chillingly accurate about the 9-11 attacks before they happened. And if he knew something, based upon documents given to him by Russian officials indicating U.S. knowledge, and if the U.S. government went to great lengths to discredit him, rather than bring him in from the cold -- then there is real meat on the plate for journalists, the American government, and all of mankind.

I have asked him 35 questions, and now you can read Mike Vreelands answers as he speaks for himself. The first 32 questions were jointly submitted to both Vreeland and his attorney, Paul Slansky, for review. The remaining three questions were asked after the most recent hacking of FTWs website, which we believe was perpetrated by the CIA. This made the publication of this story an emergency and made a statement about the survival of a free press in America:



1. What part of the U.S. government did you work? Was it the CIA?

I worked for U.S. Naval intelligence. What the CIA directs us to do is their business, so we have no way of knowing whether been working for them or not.

2. Was your assignment primarily connected to terrorism/oil?

Yes, on both issues, in part.

3. Why were you in Moscow and Russia in the latter part of 2000?

I was sent there by the U.S. government and the ONI [Office of Naval Intelligence]. I got my orders between Sept. 4 and Sept. 7, 2000.

Marc Bastien departed for Russia on Sept. 7, 2000. I had orders to meet him. Bastien was going to work at the Canadian embassy regarding diagrams and blueprints of a weapons defense system. The U.S. government had a direct influence on his mission. The name of the defence system is SSST [Stealth Satellite System Terminator]. There are five different individual and unique defensive and strike capabilities of the system. The only portion that I have publicly spoken on is one frame regarding actual current orbiting satellites, which are not at this time owned by the US government. On advice of counsel, I cannot discuss the other components.

This one component is a satellite system. Within the confines of the system there are multiple, deployable space/orbital EMP [Electromagnetic Pulse] missiles that are not aimed at the ground. They are targeted at everyone else’s satellites. These would kill worldwide communications. The satellites of some countries that are shielded with titanium are protected from these weapons. The protected countries are Russia and China, but U.S. satellites are vulnerable and Putin has told Bush that the U.S. missile defence system does not work, and that Bush knows it.

The reason why I went to Russia was that I needed to meet with Bastien and another individual from the Russian Ministry of Defence named Oleg. The purpose was to get the Canadian diplomat who had made contact with Oleg to get the book of designs out of the ministries R&D. That was done. We copied the entire book. Then we took certain documents, and we changed serious portions of the defence design so the program would not work. They know this now.

Additionally I was to pick up docs from other agents and bring them back.

4. You told Canadian authorities that Bastien was murdered when?

I never told them he was murdered. I wrote a letter to Bastien around June of 2000 from jail. I sent it to CSIS [Canadian Security and Intelligence Service] in Ottawa, to the director for his eyes only. I had restructured the diagram to put it back in its original state. However, I never told anyone exactly how to turn it on and how to build it. CSIS already knew that Bastien was dead. He died six says after I was arrested on Dec. 6. I was discharged on Dec. 9. He was killed on Dec 12.

CSIS sent RCMP [Royal Canadian Mounted Police] (Sgt. Mabe, Corporal Kispol) to visit me in jail on Aug. 8, 2001, and they advised me that he was dead. They did not say he was murdered. They told me he was dead. I told them that Bastien was dead, it was murder, and that they should get a toxicology report. In addition, I would tell you how it was done, and who did it.

5. When did they finally admit that Bastien was murdered?

They admitted that I was correct in mid-January.

6. When did you first learn details of the attacks that were to happen on Sept. 11?

In the first week of December 2000.

7. How did you learn of the details?

One document was written in English by a U.S. agent, who had picked up a copy of a document that had been sent to V. Putin by K. Hussein, Saddam Hussein’s son. This is what the translation of the doc indicates. The Iraqis knew in June 2000 that I was coming. I did not get my orders until August. The letter said that Bastien and Vreeland would be dealt with in a manner suitable to us. The letter specifically stated on page two, Our American official guarantees this.

8. Who put the information on the attacks into the pouch, and what would have been their motive for doing so?

I am not allowed to answer that. It would jeopardize the lives of active agents, and it would violate the National Security Act of 1947.

9. After having learned of the details of the impending attacks on the WTC and the Pentagon, how long did you wait before trying to notify Canadian and U.S. authorities of the information?

On Dec. 6, 2000, I told Canadian authorities to their face that I needed to contact the Canadian military immediately. I wrote it down. She [the Canadian official] was playing games, so I wrote down that, I was a Russian spy and a weapons systems expert, and that I wanted to talk to them TODAY. I said I was a Russian because figured it would get their attention. The name they had on me was Mikhail Cristianov (Michael Christian), because I had ID that used this name.

10. What was their reaction?

The Canadians turned blue, walked away, and I never saw them again.

11. How did it make you feel?

I was pissed off. It is on video [referring to a standard jail surveillance/security video].

12. Did the U.S. and Canadian response lead you to reach any conclusions? If so, what were they?

I thought I was dealing with idiots who had no clue about what was about to happen. Its been put to me that there were certain officials who wanted the attacks to happen. No one ever intended to build the system I was after because it would have made the defence budget obsolete. One thing that happened after 9-11 was that the Pentagon budgets soared.

13. Your written warning contains the statement, Let one happen, stop the rest. Who was going to let one happen? Who was going to stop the rest?

I cannot comment on the advice of counsel.

14. Does that statement imply that the U.S. or some other intelligence agency had achieved complete penetration of the terrorist cells?

That goes without question. Sometimes certain governments design, create networks like AlQaeda, which was really the government in Afghanistan. Those entities create specific problems at the creating government’s direction.

15. Do you know who had achieved this penetration?

I cannot comment on that.

16. Is it possible that the terrorist cells were being run without knowing by whom?

Absolutely.

17. The most common excuse people use to discredit you is that you have prior arrests on fraud charges, and there are several press stories linking you to alleged criminal activity. How do you explain this?

The American Express charges are Bull Shit and Amex has stated on tape that the specific charges in question were approved. They admit that there was no fraud on this card. That card had been issued to Lt. Delmart Michael Vreeland. The Amex people admitted that the card was a U.S. Navy card.

People have accused me of identity theft. If anybody checked with the police departments in the U.S., they would find that there is not one police report form any individual in the U.S. who has alleged that I have stolen any identities. There is not a single identified victim anywhere. Three judges in Canada have denied my requests to have discovery and disclosure on these alleged charges.

The press stories that have circulated about my past are lies. Portions of the stories alleging fraud and ID theft are lies. I have threatened to sue these papers, and the stories have been pulled.

Im working with ONI. Certain government officials -- politicians, brass, and high-ranking military -- have 11th Amendment privileges and cannot be sued. Another government agency has to go investigate activities connected to weapons smuggling, organized crime and drug trafficking. They use their power to break laws, and were not allowed to investigate them. Thus, certain parts of the U.S. government designed an entity called UID (Unofficial Intelligence Investigation Division). Adm. Jeremy Michael Boorda, who allegedly committed suicide, designed it. Boorda put this together prior to becoming CNO [Chief of Naval Operations]. He was not a bad person.

Intelligence officers are sometimes put into positions where they are given assignments to infiltrate specific organizations that are powerful enough to check out a newcomer’s background. Page 335 of the Charter Application in Canadian Court shows a copy of orders from Southern Command. These orders are dated April 18, 2000, concerning an anti-drug operation we were mounting. At approximately the same time, the media released widespread stories that I was a wanted criminal. This was a means pf providing cover and credibility for me with the people I was infiltrating.

18. How many times have you been arrested on criminal charges?

Maybe three. Some of this I did, like a DUI charge in New York. I had been at the UN, and I had definitely been drinking.

19. How many times have you been convicted?

I have never been legally convicted of any criminal, felony activity anywhere. The drunken driving charge is still pending, and I have admitted in open court that I did it.

20. The Michigan warrant for credit card fraud is based upon the use of your own credit card. How do you explain this?

It is a setup.

21. Were your credit cards authorized or facilitated by the U.S. Navy or any part of the U.S. government?

Yes.

22. Could the U.S. government or any of its intelligence agencies have inserted the charges through state and local agencies?

Yes.

23. You were in custody in New York on the date the alleged Michigan offence took place. What was the charge, and what was the disposition of that case?

That was the DUI charge.

24. Was working with organized crime families a part of your duties with the Navy?

Yes.

25. Were any of the organized crime families in Michigan?

Yes.

26. For what reason were you working with organized crime.

I was under orders to do so 90 percent of the time. Organized crime supplies the weapons and drugs that go to the people we investigate.

27. Are you afraid that you will be killed if you are extradited to the U.S.? Why?

Yes. Because I have spoken out.

28. Can you explain why the Canadian courts will not allow your attorneys to introduce evidence that verifies your position with the U.S. Navy?

Yes. The Canadians are very subservient to U.S. intelligence interests. They are afraid of Uncle Sam. It would also prove that CSIS covered up Marc Bastiens death, and that there was a cover-up involving a member of a major drug organization that had planned assassinations against prominent Canadians. In fact, one individual was found dead in a vat of acid. He was a hit man.

29. What do you want?

I want my uniform back, my back pay at $4,210.90 a month and my honour. I want President Bush to give me a full and complete pardon and the amnesty of the U.S. government. I am owed that. I want Bush personally to know everything that I know, and what kind of threats there are against the U.S.

It is never going to happen, so I am now seeking permanent refugee status in Canada and the protection of the United Nations.

30. What do you think will happen next in your case?

I do not know. My attorney is in court seeking a postponement of the extradition case because the Canadian government will not allow me to subpoena very important U.S. witnesses from the Pentagon and other places.

31. Is the war on terrorism about something other than what the people of the world are being told?

What war on terrorism?

32. What do you think will happen next in the war on terror?

Eventually, someone is going to have to tell the truth. Once those people are dealt with according to law, there will be no more false terror spread across the globe.

33. You have recently had dealings with an American journalist named Rick Wiles. What is your opinion of Wiles and what was your experience?

My opinion of Wiles is that he is a psychopath, who will print anything that will make him money. My experience with him was that I had private conversations with him that he recorded, not telling me he was going to post them on the Internet and sell them to the world. Then once I contacted him and told him that he was not to do that, he said he would take them down right now. Instead of taking them down, he placed a bigger ad. He made a bigger ad!

In my opinion, he is neither honourable nor professional. He has placed my story right next to a story about someone who talked to aliens 25 years ago. Yeah, that is right where I want my story to be, right next to some bozo who talks to aliens. The idiot!
So now, he is selling this phoney exclusive interview with me for $20 and he is making all the money. He never had my permission to do that.

34. You have recently had dealings with an American journalist named J.R. Nyquist. What is you opinion of Nyquist and what was your experience?

Do not even get me started. My opinion: I think he might be working for the government. I did not know that he was writing a story about me. He asked me some questions. I answered some questions. I recorded it, then he went off on a wild tangent about psychological crap, and I did not even read the whole story I was so mad.
He went off about the Russians, and its all bullshit. He sent me this fax about you saying that Ruppert was not my friend. He was saying that the Russians had me boxed in. The truth is, the American government is boxing me in. He is full of shit.

35. Are all of these statements on-the-record?

Yes!

As a result of the most recent hackings FTWs sales and cash flow have been interrupted while we are spending the thousands of dollars necessary to upgrade our security and Web services. FTW supporters who wish to make donations in this emergency may do so by calling 818-788-8791.
THE TOP SECTION BEEN TIDIED UP IN PROPER ENGLISH AND NOT TO ALTER ITS GENERAL THRUST. AS IT IS A BUSINESS, THEY SHOULD FIND THEIR OWN MONEY. IS THERE A LINK TO http://www.convica.com

THE BOTTOM SECTION DOWNLOADED FROM THE WEB ON THE 10th SEPTEMBER 2001. END SECTION FROM A 2,792 LETTER. DOES IT MEAN THE 11th AND +15rs MEAN 15hrs TO BE ON THE WAY TO THE AIRPORT.
A code picked up by a link. Q 3c4n3went DH clcn prop c ev5e5 mm0gerwer mgtmvgfsjhitconcitdg kldwcwdfjkdxdaed.Gfjo diormk jierer 11wnye0w rfiog frio+15rs lwg 0iotrwp CTR nehfkuas. fuenacrtbaklncnadvtlcvj.
“It does not matter how hard you try, one cannot polish shit.” WORD COUNTS 2,792.
7th September 2001 02:49 AM. LEO SAYER. Up Dated. Monday, 7 January 2002.

This e-mail went to Brian Scott Palliser, Maurice Gordon & Maud linker Teague, Michael Timings, High Court etc on the 7th September 2001.

by Downloaded By Zona.
Sunday Apr 7th, 2002 5:08 AM
Ex-agent reveals the truth on 9-11.
By Fri Apr 5 21:51:37 PST 2002


PLEASE DISTRIBUTE WIDELY
Mike Vreeland, ex agent, speaks from Canada
EMERGENCY MESSAGE FROM FTW -- Mike Vreeland Speaks from Canada -- FTW Web Site Hacked in Apparent Attempt to Block This Story

The survival of From the Wilderness may depend upon how quickly this message can be distributed throughout the Internet.

PLEASE DISTRIBUTE WIDELY

FTW INTERVIEW: DELMART MIKE VREELAND

What the CIA Doesn’t Want You to Know

By Michael C. Ruppert

[Ed. Note: Just prior to the publication of this article, the FTW web site was hacked for the second time in a month. This hacking -- accomplished via sophisticated methods -- has been apparently intended to prevent us from publishing the following interview. As a temporary emergency measure ONLY, please direct emergency e-mail correspondence to mikeruppert [at] earthlink.net. FTW will be back up and running in an even more secure manner in the near future. -- MCR]

April 4, 2002, 1:00 PM PST (FTW) -- If all of its dark alleys were explored, the case of Delmart Edward Joseph Mike Vreeland is one which is worthy of a book that would rival War and Peace. It is a case that has sparked zealous attacks on FTW and me personally, and one, which has seriously disturbed many officials in Washington. These attacks are an indication of the threat Vreeland poses to the credibility of the U.S. government. Only one question of any relevance exists. How was this man able to write details that described the events of Sept. 11 while locked in a jail cell, more than a month before the attacks occurred?

It matters little to a homemaker in Kansas if Mike Vreeland has a very confusing criminal arrest record -- some of it contradictory and apparently fabricated -- for a variety of petty criminal offences including fraud. However, it may be a matter of the gravest importance for the same homemaker if this man knew accurate information about the attacks, tried to warn both the U.S. and Canadian governments about them, and was ignored. If a crazy man runs up to you on the street and says that a house is on fire with children trapped inside, and you smell smoke, which is the crazy one if you decide not to investigate.

The U.S. Navy says that Vreeland, arrested in Canada on Dec. 4, 2000 and currently fighting a U.S. extradition warrant, was discharged for unsatisfactory performance after only four months of service in 1986. But a growing pile of evidence, much of it filed in court records and undisputed by Canadian or U.S. authorities, establishes clearly that Vreeland was exactly what he says he was -- a spy.

In three previous stories, FTW has described how his military records, acknowledged in excess of 1,200 pages, have been tampered with. We have described how, in open court on a speakerphone, his lawyers obtained direct confirmation from the Pentagon that he was a Navy officer. We have also reported that, as of March 14, all Canadian charges against Vreeland were dismissed. He was released on bail and granted temporary refugee status by the Canadian government until his battle to beat the U.S. extradition request is settled.

Something that Canadian authorities have never disputed is that Vreeland wrote his ominous and hastily scribbled warning a full month before the attacks, and that the warning was sealed away by his keepers, beyond his reach, until Sept. 14, three days after the attacks.

If he loses his extradition fight, both Vreeland and his attorneys believe that his assassination will occur within days of his return to U.S. soil.

Mike Vreeland is not a saint. Covert operatives are not made from such material, and governments do not recruit or screen candidates for saintly qualities. By his own admission in Canadian court documents and in several conversations with FTW, Vreeland says he has done bad things. He has been on probation for petty offences, and he has behaved the way covert operatives behave in the real world -- not in Hollywood.

I have been studying, interacting with, and talking to covert operatives for more than 25 years. It is for that reason that I avoid some of the questions being raised by dilettantes and neophyte journalists who take all of the threads of Vreeland’s stories and run with them into a wilderness from which no professional journalist could credibly emerge. Yes, I have listened to him talk about so-called red mercury, baseball-sized atom bombs, and Star Wars weapons systems. Yes, I have heard him talk about a great many things, and I believe that what he told me was truthful according to his knowledge of events and the documents he brought back from Moscow in December 2000.

Even by his own statements, Vreeland, now 35, was a relatively low ranking officer and an intelligence field operative. Never in the history of covert operations has any government entrusted field operatives with total strategic knowledge because the knowledge held by those who make the plans is compartmentalized and locked away. Perhaps 80 percent of all intelligence work is disinformation, and governments know that their field operatives risk capture, interrogation, and torture. Quite often field operatives are themselves fed disinformation so that if they talk, they will still spread lies that serve a larger strategic purpose. Quite often, they carry documents that are deliberately inaccurate and their capture is engineered to give those documents credibility.

To the U.S. government, Vreeland is very expendable. In addition, those who run with every piece of information he has disclosed will themselves be proven fools in a fool’s game.

Nevertheless, one question remains. In addition, a question now stands vindicated by time and events. He knew something chillingly accurate about the 9-11 attacks before they happened. And if he knew something, based upon documents given to him by Russian officials indicating U.S. knowledge, and if the U.S. government went to great lengths to discredit him, rather than bring him in from the cold -- then there is real meat on the plate for journalists, the American government, and all of mankind.

I have asked him 35 questions, and now you can read Mike Vreelands answers as he speaks for himself. The first 32 questions were jointly submitted to both Vreeland and his attorney, Paul Slansky, for review. The remaining three questions were asked after the most recent hacking of FTWs website, which we believe was perpetrated by the CIA. This made the publication of this story an emergency and made a statement about the survival of a free press in America:



1. What part of the U.S. government did you work? Was it the CIA?

I worked for U.S. Naval intelligence. What the CIA directs us to do is their business, so we have no way of knowing whether been working for them or not.

2. Was your assignment primarily connected to terrorism/oil?

Yes, on both issues, in part.

3. Why were you in Moscow and Russia in the latter part of 2000?

I was sent there by the U.S. government and the ONI [Office of Naval Intelligence]. I got my orders between Sept. 4 and Sept. 7, 2000.

Marc Bastien departed for Russia on Sept. 7, 2000. I had orders to meet him. Bastien was going to work at the Canadian embassy regarding diagrams and blueprints of a weapons defense system. The U.S. government had a direct influence on his mission. The name of the defence system is SSST [Stealth Satellite System Terminator]. There are five different individual and unique defensive and strike capabilities of the system. The only portion that I have publicly spoken on is one frame regarding actual current orbiting satellites, which are not at this time owned by the US government. On advice of counsel, I cannot discuss the other components.

This one component is a satellite system. Within the confines of the system there are multiple, deployable space/orbital EMP [Electromagnetic Pulse] missiles that are not aimed at the ground. They are targeted at everyone else’s satellites. These would kill worldwide communications. The satellites of some countries that are shielded with titanium are protected from these weapons. The protected countries are Russia and China, but U.S. satellites are vulnerable and Putin has told Bush that the U.S. missile defence system does not work, and that Bush knows it.

The reason why I went to Russia was that I needed to meet with Bastien and another individual from the Russian Ministry of Defence named Oleg. The purpose was to get the Canadian diplomat who had made contact with Oleg to get the book of designs out of the ministries R&D. That was done. We copied the entire book. Then we took certain documents, and we changed serious portions of the defence design so the program would not work. They know this now.

Additionally I was to pick up docs from other agents and bring them back.

4. You told Canadian authorities that Bastien was murdered when?

I never told them he was murdered. I wrote a letter to Bastien around June of 2000 from jail. I sent it to CSIS [Canadian Security and Intelligence Service] in Ottawa, to the director for his eyes only. I had restructured the diagram to put it back in its original state. However, I never told anyone exactly how to turn it on and how to build it. CSIS already knew that Bastien was dead. He died six says after I was arrested on Dec. 6. I was discharged on Dec. 9. He was killed on Dec 12.

CSIS sent RCMP [Royal Canadian Mounted Police] (Sgt. Mabe, Corporal Kispol) to visit me in jail on Aug. 8, 2001, and they advised me that he was dead. They did not say he was murdered. They told me he was dead. I told them that Bastien was dead, it was murder, and that they should get a toxicology report. In addition, I would tell you how it was done, and who did it.

5. When did they finally admit that Bastien was murdered?

They admitted that I was correct in mid-January.

6. When did you first learn details of the attacks that were to happen on Sept. 11?

In the first week of December 2000.

7. How did you learn of the details?

One document was written in English by a U.S. agent, who had picked up a copy of a document that had been sent to V. Putin by K. Hussein, Saddam Hussein’s son. This is what the translation of the doc indicates. The Iraqis knew in June 2000 that I was coming. I did not get my orders until August. The letter said that Bastien and Vreeland would be dealt with in a manner suitable to us. The letter specifically stated on page two, Our American official guarantees this.

8. Who put the information on the attacks into the pouch, and what would have been their motive for doing so?

I am not allowed to answer that. It would jeopardize the lives of active agents, and it would violate the National Security Act of 1947.

9. After having learned of the details of the impending attacks on the WTC and the Pentagon, how long did you wait before trying to notify Canadian and U.S. authorities of the information?

On Dec. 6, 2000, I told Canadian authorities to their face that I needed to contact the Canadian military immediately. I wrote it down. She [the Canadian official] was playing games, so I wrote down that, I was a Russian spy and a weapons systems expert, and that I wanted to talk to them TODAY. I said I was a Russian because figured it would get their attention. The name they had on me was Mikhail Cristianov (Michael Christian), because I had ID that used this name.

10. What was their reaction?

The Canadians turned blue, walked away, and I never saw them again.

11. How did it make you feel?

I was pissed off. It is on video [referring to a standard jail surveillance/security video].

12. Did the U.S. and Canadian response lead you to reach any conclusions? If so, what were they?

I thought I was dealing with idiots who had no clue about what was about to happen. Its been put to me that there were certain officials who wanted the attacks to happen. No one ever intended to build the system I was after because it would have made the defence budget obsolete. One thing that happened after 9-11 was that the Pentagon budgets soared.

13. Your written warning contains the statement, Let one happen, stop the rest. Who was going to let one happen? Who was going to stop the rest?

I cannot comment on the advice of counsel.

14. Does that statement imply that the U.S. or some other intelligence agency had achieved complete penetration of the terrorist cells?

That goes without question. Sometimes certain governments design, create networks like AlQaeda, which was really the government in Afghanistan. Those entities create specific problems at the creating government’s direction.

15. Do you know who had achieved this penetration?

I cannot comment on that.

16. Is it possible that the terrorist cells were being run without knowing by whom?

Absolutely.

17. The most common excuse people use to discredit you is that you have prior arrests on fraud charges, and there are several press stories linking you to alleged criminal activity. How do you explain this?

The American Express charges are Bull Shit and Amex has stated on tape that the specific charges in question were approved. They admit that there was no fraud on this card. That card had been issued to Lt. Delmart Michael Vreeland. The Amex people admitted that the card was a U.S. Navy card.

People have accused me of identity theft. If anybody checked with the police departments in the U.S., they would find that there is not one police report form any individual in the U.S. who has alleged that I have stolen any identities. There is not a single identified victim anywhere. Three judges in Canada have denied my requests to have discovery and disclosure on these alleged charges.

The press stories that have circulated about my past are lies. Portions of the stories alleging fraud and ID theft are lies. I have threatened to sue these papers, and the stories have been pulled.

Im working with ONI. Certain government officials -- politicians, brass, and high-ranking military -- have 11th Amendment privileges and cannot be sued. Another government agency has to go investigate activities connected to weapons smuggling, organized crime and drug trafficking. They use their power to break laws, and were not allowed to investigate them. Thus, certain parts of the U.S. government designed an entity called UID (Unofficial Intelligence Investigation Division). Adm. Jeremy Michael Boorda, who allegedly committed suicide, designed it. Boorda put this together prior to becoming CNO [Chief of Naval Operations]. He was not a bad person.

Intelligence officers are sometimes put into positions where they are given assignments to infiltrate specific organizations that are powerful enough to check out a newcomer’s background. Page 335 of the Charter Application in Canadian Court shows a copy of orders from Southern Command. These orders are dated April 18, 2000, concerning an anti-drug operation we were mounting. At approximately the same time, the media released widespread stories that I was a wanted criminal. This was a means pf providing cover and credibility for me with the people I was infiltrating.

18. How many times have you been arrested on criminal charges?

Maybe three. Some of this I did, like a DUI charge in New York. I had been at the UN, and I had definitely been drinking.

19. How many times have you been convicted?

I have never been legally convicted of any criminal, felony activity anywhere. The drunken driving charge is still pending, and I have admitted in open court that I did it.

20. The Michigan warrant for credit card fraud is based upon the use of your own credit card. How do you explain this?

It is a setup.

21. Were your credit cards authorized or facilitated by the U.S. Navy or any part of the U.S. government?

Yes.

22. Could the U.S. government or any of its intelligence agencies have inserted the charges through state and local agencies?

Yes.

23. You were in custody in New York on the date the alleged Michigan offence took place. What was the charge, and what was the disposition of that case?

That was the DUI charge.

24. Was working with organized crime families a part of your duties with the Navy?

Yes.

25. Were any of the organized crime families in Michigan?

Yes.

26. For what reason were you working with organized crime.

I was under orders to do so 90 percent of the time. Organized crime supplies the weapons and drugs that go to the people we investigate.

27. Are you afraid that you will be killed if you are extradited to the U.S.? Why?

Yes. Because I have spoken out.

28. Can you explain why the Canadian courts will not allow your attorneys to introduce evidence that verifies your position with the U.S. Navy?

Yes. The Canadians are very subservient to U.S. intelligence interests. They are afraid of Uncle Sam. It would also prove that CSIS covered up Marc Bastiens death, and that there was a cover-up involving a member of a major drug organization that had planned assassinations against prominent Canadians. In fact, one individual was found dead in a vat of acid. He was a hit man.

29. What do you want?

I want my uniform back, my back pay at $4,210.90 a month and my honour. I want President Bush to give me a full and complete pardon and the amnesty of the U.S. government. I am owed that. I want Bush personally to know everything that I know, and what kind of threats there are against the U.S.

It is never going to happen, so I am now seeking permanent refugee status in Canada and the protection of the United Nations.

30. What do you think will happen next in your case?

I do not know. My attorney is in court seeking a postponement of the extradition case because the Canadian government will not allow me to subpoena very important U.S. witnesses from the Pentagon and other places.

31. Is the war on terrorism about something other than what the people of the world are being told?

What war on terrorism?

32. What do you think will happen next in the war on terror?

Eventually, someone is going to have to tell the truth. Once those people are dealt with according to law, there will be no more false terror spread across the globe.

33. You have recently had dealings with an American journalist named Rick Wiles. What is your opinion of Wiles and what was your experience?

My opinion of Wiles is that he is a psychopath, who will print anything that will make him money. My experience with him was that I had private conversations with him that he recorded, not telling me he was going to post them on the Internet and sell them to the world. Then once I contacted him and told him that he was not to do that, he said he would take them down right now. Instead of taking them down, he placed a bigger ad. He made a bigger ad!

In my opinion, he is neither honourable nor professional. He has placed my story right next to a story about someone who talked to aliens 25 years ago. Yeah, that is right where I want my story to be, right next to some bozo who talks to aliens. The idiot!
So now, he is selling this phoney exclusive interview with me for $20 and he is making all the money. He never had my permission to do that.

34. You have recently had dealings with an American journalist named J.R. Nyquist. What is you opinion of Nyquist and what was your experience?

Do not even get me started. My opinion: I think he might be working for the government. I did not know that he was writing a story about me. He asked me some questions. I answered some questions. I recorded it, then he went off on a wild tangent about psychological crap, and I did not even read the whole story I was so mad.
He went off about the Russians, and its all bullshit. He sent me this fax about you saying that Ruppert was not my friend. He was saying that the Russians had me boxed in. The truth is, the American government is boxing me in. He is full of shit.

35. Are all of these statements on-the-record?

Yes!

As a result of the most recent hackings FTWs sales and cash flow have been interrupted while we are spending the thousands of dollars necessary to upgrade our security and Web services. FTW supporters who wish to make donations in this emergency may do so by calling 818-788-8791.
THE TOP SECTION BEEN TIDIED UP IN PROPER ENGLISH AND AS NOT TO ALTER ITS GENERAL THRUST. http://www.convica.com

THE BOTTOM SECTION DOWNLOADED FROM THE WEB ON THE 10th SEPTEMBER 2001. END SECTION FROM A 2,792 LETTER. DOES IT MEAN THE 11th AND +15rs MEAN 15hrs TO BE ON THE WAY TO THE AIRPORT.
A code picked up by a link. Q 3c4n3went DH clcn prop c ev5e5 mm0gerwer mgtmvgfsjhitconcitdg kldwcwdfjkdxdaed.Gfjo diormk jierer 11wnye0w rfiog frio+15rs lwg 0iotrwp CTR nehfkuas. fuenacrtbaklncnadvtlcvj.
“It does not matter how hard you try, one cannot polish shit.” WORD COUNTS 2,792.
7th September 2001 02:49 AM. LEO SAYER. Up Dated. Monday, 7 January 2002.

This e-mail went to Brian Scott Palliser, Maurice Gordon & Maud linker Teague, Michael Timings, High Court etc on the 7th September 2001.
by Pubsquire
Sunday Apr 7th, 2002 5:10 PM
Mohamid Attah want a name that only the Intellegence people of the world knew about. If you read a book called World Most Dangerous Places it spicificly names him as a moajor bad guy and it was public knowledge to everyone who he was so to think that this guy just slipped into this country ubenounced to all of the top Intell agencies is very had to swollow.
by Doug
Sunday Apr 7th, 2002 8:48 PM
Didn't write this--just copied it-D.
(In response to 27 mar 02 post by Mike--"A written account of History"
from http://www.ptialaska.net/~swampy/illuminati/zion.html

For Your Information


I have found some very credible articles in french that clearly demonstrate two things:

First: About 40% of the following Protocols are made of some sentences coming from a previous
work, also written in french, which is untitled: "Dialogue aux Enfers entre Machiavel et Montesquieu".
This work was published in Brussells in 1864 by Maurice Joly, an antibonapartiste lawyer who
wanted to demonstrate that the emperor Bonaparte and his relatives were plotting in hope of getting
all the powers of the french society. Using this forgotten text, the forger of the Protocols had
replaced the words "France" by "the world" and "Napoléon III" by "the Jews." There are
25 "Dialogues" in all, whereas there are 24 "Protocols;" the first Protocol being made with the fusion
of the first two Dialogues.

Second: A very serious russian historian, Mikhail Lepekhine, has established the author of the
document called "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion." His name is Mathieu Golovinski, who
made this work in Paris, in the beginning of the century, for the delegate in France of the political
police of the russian tsar.
by Doug
Sunday Apr 7th, 2002 8:52 PM
Didn't write this--just copied it-D.
(In response to 27 mar 02 post by Mike--"A written account of History"
from http://www.ptialaska.net/~swampy/illuminati/zion.html

For Your Information


I have found some very credible articles in french that clearly demonstrate two things:

First: About 40% of the following Protocols are made of some sentences coming from a previous
work, also written in french, which is untitled: "Dialogue aux Enfers entre Machiavel et Montesquieu".
This work was published in Brussells in 1864 by Maurice Joly, an antibonapartiste lawyer who
wanted to demonstrate that the emperor Bonaparte and his relatives were plotting in hope of getting
all the powers of the french society. Using this forgotten text, the forger of the Protocols had
replaced the words "France" by "the world" and "Napoléon III" by "the Jews." There are
25 "Dialogues" in all, whereas there are 24 "Protocols;" the first Protocol being made with the fusion
of the first two Dialogues.

Second: A very serious russian historian, Mikhail Lepekhine, has established the author of the
document called "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion." His name is Mathieu Golovinski, who
made this work in Paris, in the beginning of the century, for the delegate in France of the political
police of the russian tsar.
by Bond
Sunday Apr 7th, 2002 10:44 PM
I've been following the way you talk here and you just can't seem to describe yourself but by your own words.

<Idiot>s.
by Bond
Sunday Apr 7th, 2002 11:58 PM
Intended for this guy Eric...
I've been following the way you talk here but you just can't seem to describe yourself but by your own filthy words.
by Kenyon Gibson
Monday Apr 8th, 2002 3:46 AM
All the smokescreen in the world is covering one thing,
the flow of money.
Where is it going?
To W and his freinds in the oil and arms business.
Why?
Because people, in the panic of the Reichstag fire,
believe him.
It is necessary to review the facts, and look at his history.
There are many ways to intercept his kind of evil.
All demand common sense, and one is to look at the
energy money. Why are we even spending money on
oil? Ethanol is cheaper, whem done in mass, and
is locally obtainable. Americans can get it from their
yard trimmings, old clothes, farm wastes, hemp, flax,
wood, etc.
Then some people would not make as much money.
Like the folks who took down President Jimmy Carter's
solar enrgy panel from the White House.
Reaan and Bush.
Now look at their criminal records. One Bush family member even has a record of sex crimes against a minor, and, if you get a copy of the TranceFormation of
America ( Cathy O'Brien and Mark Phillips), 1995, you
will read some seriously disturbing details about
41/43. Good old Grandpa had property confiscated under the Trading with the Enemy Act, 1942.
Oh well, they're supposed to be Christians?
No, they are not, but they have trifled with the church as
part of their propaganda, and have a much greater enemy than we can imagine.
"He who destroys the body of Christ the Lord will destroy".
Man may not be able to get a hold of this guy, but that is
not the last word. Now watch him, and all the others
who use the church. In the future we will be seeing a
number of politicians and the network of false ministers dealt with.

As for America, take a look at some of the problems.
You can use common sense, or follow people like W.

We all have choices to make in this life.

Kenyon
by Silesweb
Monday Apr 8th, 2002 7:08 AM
...by MKultra. I'm sorry that you didn't get it, but I don't believe that it is anyones responsibility to take you by the hand and walk you through the basics. While you are so busy defending the Thief in Chief, the rest of us are reading, listening and networking. I suggest that you try and educate yourself a little....maybe then you can respond intelligently, and stop regurgitating childish expletives.
by Silesweb
Monday Apr 8th, 2002 7:16 AM
...by MKultra. I'm sorry that you didn't get it, but I don't believe that it is anyones responsibility to take you by the hand and walk you through the basics. While you are so busy defending the Thief in Chief, the rest of us are reading, listening and networking. I suggest that you try and educate yourself a little....maybe then you can respond intelligently, and stop regurgitating childish expletives.
by MKULTRA
Monday Apr 8th, 2002 10:44 AM

Bush issues ultimatum...enough is enough! Initial reports state Powell will be in Israel on Monday. Israelis attack reporters trying to cover Zinni's initial visit with Arafat. Arab world a-buzz with emails coming from Palestinians saying they're being slaughtered. Pope even calls for Sharon to back off. Wall Street Journal calls Pope anti- modernist. Sharon thumbs nose at Bush. Powell talks like he is not even sure he will talk to Arafat and now is "drumming up support" among other Arab leaders. Does he think he will command more respect than Cheney did? Bush's speech was impressive, but is it turning out to be as deep as his father's "read my lips" speech? Was he just paying lip service to the Arab world to keep the back door open to inavading Iraq?
I write all my congressmen and senators, and even, yes, President Bush. It's amazing how they all respond and how they all say pretty much the same thing. But what else can one do...
As far as Eric goes...it is pretty silly that anyone could think he was cia or whatever. It would be far more likely such a person would pose using my kind of words. Do they spy on sites like this...probably not...is someone somewhere in Govt aware of it...maybe...it's on some list somewhere with hundreds of other sites catagorized as "leftist" or anti american or god knows what. Anyway, Eric has a right to say what he does, though the personal attacks are distracting. I think the real reason why Eric keeps coming back is because he is torn between his compulsion to defend and his training to attack & that deep down he knows something is really messed up. Believe me...I would prefer to believe what Eric says (in terms of US Govt) were true. I wish I could believe we had a real Commander in Cheif. I wish it were as simple as a crazy Osama Terrorist ring...but I can't.
For a fleeting moment I thought there might be hope when Bush gave his speech, that if Sharon drew back...new dialogues would open...it's what Patrick Henry called "indulging in the illusion of hope". It takes a long time to realize there truly is none and that the powers that be, whether it is the Crown, or the Harvard Yale Oligarchy, are really about protecting themselves and have no insight into advancing the Human Cause with what Bush Sr. called "The Vision Thing."
An old girlfriend of mine, her brother -in-law used to work for State Dept. His job was in the Bahamas doing phone surveillance of govt employees. Seems there is no small effort expended making sure the goods are got on anyone.
Sharon has Bush by the Balls, more than likely (Remember Noriega's famous speech "You tengo Bush por los cajones:?). But of course, Noriega was completely villified and discredited and put in a position where they let him walk out of the priest's rectory alive as long as he kept his mouth shut about Bush. Noriega knew way too much, especially about Jeb.
The question is: Will Palestinians be "transferred" to Jordan?
Will events there unfold in such away so as to legitimize the ever expanding, never ending war on terror?
If what FTW says about Vreeland is true...

WHAT CAN WE DO???
by SABIAN
Tuesday Apr 9th, 2002 8:47 AM
In my humble opinion, if all the europeans were to leave all occupied lands from Africa, Australia, America, New Zealand, Canada, South America, [Israel]..especially the middle east, and returned back to EUROPE to stay forever, the planet will be harmonious in many ways. No more oil spills. No more nuclear weapons. No more diseases. No more spiritual lies. No more pope. No more propaganda. The US military would do it's best job if they oust the Rockefellers, Bush's, Billy Graham, Scotts., and the white controlled Masonic evil, the land called USA, would heal.
Now that the phony Queen of England is dead, with the coming of the pope soon to die, the europeans dynasty is also dying. When the WORLD understand that the TRUE Jews are ETHIOPIANS an not European gypsies that reside in the middle east, then an only then will peace be in that region. The Chinese are not trying to invade europe. However, it will be the Chinese who will conquer the conflict in the middle east. Along with the African nations. Soon [all] europeans will be despised from all others on the planet. It will be like those who have leprosy, no one will be your friend.

The many lies that have been told, are no longer working. The europeans war machines will not help them defeat the World. It's just a matter of moments that all europeans will see that, there way of wisdom an knowledge is the wrong way.

My predictions: Israel will not survive. It will be dismantle by the people leaving that area for the fear that will come upon it. USA will also be war torn soon. The blacks in the USA military will rebel along with the 68 million civillain blacks who are inside the temple of DOOM. The white female will have more babies by black men than by white men. This will put the european race on the endangered species list in the USA. Europe is already being dismantled by the Africans an Pakistans, an middle easterns.

The Planet is in control of these movements, not man!

The USA government was responsible for the WTC an Pentagon fiasco. The WTC buildings fell straight down like a demolition effect. Ther were no concrete slabs found at groung zero. Why? C4 was used to dismantle the concrete floors into powder. Thats why powder was seen on people fleeing from the chaos. The C4 was placed on each floor, along the base beams, an the arch beams. Each floor was blown in sequence with a remote timer!

What tells the entire story about Bush knowing about this operation way in advance. When Bush took a month vacation in August at his home in Crawford TX, prior to that vacation, Bush was not wearing a USA flag pin on his apparel!?!?!? After 9/11 Bush begin sporting a flag pin on his left apparel. This signals a change that was instituted behind closed doors. Small trinckets like this tells those who seek truth many things.
It's just a matter of time when the Planet will engage it's own WAR on terrorism, racism, an untruth. It will be more than what the catholic priest/archdocies is going thru. The black, brown, yellow humans will be warranted their original places on the Planet. The whites will be cast away once again, to stay away and remain in the bone cold wilderness where they an there evil will be their own salvation.

It has been written!
by Eric
Tuesday Apr 9th, 2002 11:53 AM
Another false prophet predicting the untimely demise of the free world!

I truely love reading this stuff; it's the ultimate in entertainment. Anyone mind if I use some of this material here; I'm writing a book. It's about real life being stranger than fiction.

That's the reason I keep coming back here. I am entertained. The thing that does it for me is how some of you are so intelligent too. It's like, God gave you this brain and forget to provide the instructions for how to use it.

It is true that things are messed up in this world. They really, truly are. Even without government, life is still a bitch. It's just not fair. Did anyone ever tell you guys that? Just walk right up to ya and say "Quit yer bitchen, suck it up! Life's not fair! So what??" Yep, that's what I know. That's what's messed up. Not the government. Not the people. Hell, I've misplaced my sunglasses before, swore someone was playing a joke on me and found 'em on my head. It was a big conspiracy. Somebody put those glases there to keep me from findin' 'em. Yep, was the Republicans I bet. Maybe the corporations. Coulda been the Jews. Or that second gunman on the grassy knoll.
by flow
Wednesday Apr 10th, 2002 10:55 AM
hehe :) Eric just had a CIA update.

don't even doubt for a second they wouldn't pay someone to intrude in indymedia forums. it's part of their internet tactics. just look at the CNN forums. full of criticism in the beginning, now it's offline.

Eric, why don't you join us ? maybe you'ld make less money, but you would gain truth and respect, and that 's priceless.

the internet is their worst enemy. good thing is: they can not win.

by Gerry
Thursday Apr 11th, 2002 12:24 AM
Eric ol' buddy .... you're back again!

And you're right ... it must be for the entertainment, as you sure haven't been LEARNING anything from your visits here.

You bring to mind a song Jerry Jeff Walker did back in the 70's. Some of the lyrics are:

"He's thirty-four and drinkin' in a honky-tonk,
"He's kickin' hippie's asses and raisin' hell..."
(sound familiar?)

And feel free to use anything I've posted for your book. Perhaps if you did write it out, you'd pay a little more attention and start connecting the dots ... and you'd see that real life IS stranger than fiction.

Don't believe for a moment that the FBI/CIA doesn't keep an eye on these public forums on the Internet. With their billion dollar Congressional grants, those boys can afford the man-power.

More to the point, it's the only uncensored forum left. You'd never get this kind of discussion in the mainstream media; they'd shut it down in a moment. As 72% of Americans are now on the internet, you can bet the Boys in Langley will be interested.

And if this is a "bullshit forum or ridiculous web org..." then please tell me - what are YOU doing here?

No-one here is doubting that life can be difficult, but I think we're all glad to be here anyway. As part of a democratic society, we have to ask these questions. Democracy isn't just the Constitution, Bill of Rights and Declaration of Independence. It requires our ongoing participation; like a car, it needs constant maintenance and upkeep.

A Politician is no different from an automechanic, you don't take him at face value. You have to hold his feet to the fire, Municipal, State or Federal.

Like Churchill said, "The price of Freedom is constant vigilance".

Ten Four Good Buddy!

Gerry
by Gerry
Thursday Apr 11th, 2002 1:20 AM
I'll bet ya dollars to doughnuts that when you were in school you got regularly kicked out for disrupting the class ..... right, or am I right?

Ten Four again Good Buddy!

Gerry
by Eric
Thursday Apr 11th, 2002 6:26 AM
Well Gerry, I'd hate to take your money, but you'd lose that bet. I was always an honor student with perfect attendance for 9 years straight. So with your second assumption about me (first being that I am CIA), again you are wrong. Didn't anyone ever tell you not to ASSUME? You make an ASS out of U and not ME when you do that.

I also love how you compared me with Davey Crockett and the Alamo! I agree, the analogy can be made to my presence here, however I don't nearly deserve the compliment!

http://www.kwanah.com/txmilmus/tnghist3.htm

The death of those great men inspired the battle cry that bore into the Mexican army at San Jacinto and ultimately led to the defeat of Santa Anna. How ironic that you should compare me to such rousing hero! I am truly honored. Ten four good buddy??

As far as the request that I join you all, well the movie "Star Wars" comes to mind. Remeber the epic light sabre battle between Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker? "Luke, I am your father...Join me." Isn't that always like the evil side? I mean in the movies, a good guy comes along and the bad guy wants him to join "the dark side". Why is that? I think it has to do with it being easier to do bad rather than good. Being bad is human nature. Since the caveman days it's always been about survival. If Joe caveman had a slab of tyrannasourus meat and you didn't, you'd go club him over the head and take it. Not a nice thing to do, but do you think joe had any intentions of sharing? Probably not.

Anyway, I'd like to think I'm already joined with you. You need me. You need people like me. Your antithesis, so to speak. Just like hot and cold, salt and pepper, good and evil. Without one, the other has no purpose. So we're already describably linked. But I don't think they way many of you do. I prefer peace to drama. I like a quiet existence. I can't create conspiracy from unsubstantiated conjecture. I live in reality, not some fantasy land. I know that government is a necessity for a civilized culture, and since we have to have it, it may as well be one that allows me to eat, to own land, to own property, to own a business, to live substantially and in peace so I can think about other things besides what my government is doing, to protect my interests and my family, and one that doesn't take shit off of all these wanna be governments. The proof is in the pudding. My life is content. My family is content. My friends are content. To revolt against comfort is ridiculous.
by it's all about ego
Thursday Apr 11th, 2002 8:29 AM
>My life is content. My family is content. My friends are content.

Lucky you. But what about the rest of humanity?



>To revolt against comfort is ridiculous.

To live in comfort while others suffer is callous, cold, cruel and evil.
by Eric
Thursday Apr 11th, 2002 9:13 AM
Yeah, I'm cold, callous, cruel and evil for living in comfort. That makes sense.

I bet you sign your whole paycheck over to Yassar Arafat, live in a mudhole, survive on rainwater you collect from your up-turned eylids and eat tree bark.

Hypocrite.
by Kenyon Gibson
Friday Apr 12th, 2002 1:39 AM
It seems obvious that most Americans know their
governmnent is up to something. Anthrax- Arab terrorists? No, it was US anthrax form a US government strain.
Who made money? Bayer.
911? Who made maney? Bush. The CIA. Carlysle.
Maybe DuPont........Connect the dots.
Treason.
It is the unspoken word on people's minds in the US these days. Mike Vreeland's sealed document is a bit
too close for comfort.
So what do you do?
There need to be some fact finding, and the cloak of
"national security" needs to be exposed.
It was under this cloak that certain parties committed
crimes against children, attacking them in satanic and
perverted ways, then locking them up.
Look at the flow of US money in the Southeast Asian
child pronography trade. Trace it to the CIA.
A real patriot would do a Serpico, not sit their in denial.
Why are you in denial and not arresting these crepes?
Are you the land of the brave, who can face the truth
about your government?
Eric, if you want a few facts, then look at DuPont and
what they did to your government. Many Americans,
16 of them on a grand jury, called it a case for treason.
Yes, they were indiected after WWII. People laid down their lives for DuPont profits. Am I making this up?
Read it for yourself at http://www.hancockhouse.com
look at the book Hemp for Victory. and you can see the
facts. Years of research here Eric, and no, I am not the
loony left, I actually come from a military family, and
have a cousin in the CIA. I do know a little about how it works. You ought to find out. As a patriot, you might make a difference if you had the total picture.
Do you really want to support traitors, just because like
the Nazis in pre war America, they bought government
bonds, had shares in DuPont, and waved the American flag? Part of their strategy. Cost a lot of
US lives. Are you going to cost US lives, or are you willing to lay down your ego and listent facts Eric?
10-4.
Kenyon
by Kilwraith
Friday Apr 12th, 2002 5:26 AM
SABIAN
You prophecise more racism as being the answer to problems of racism. Its like trying to fix terrorism with terrorism. Just makes it worse. Like the 'war of terrorism' that is being waged by US forces in Afghanistan. Now I hear on the news (Fairfax media) that the US forces in Afghanistan are turning a blind eye to heroin production for the cooperation of the producers.

That strongly affirms my suspicion that Afghanistan is being invaded for its resources and not to revenge-murder alleged affiliates of those who performed the WT attacks.

The people responsible for the WT attacks are already dead. They flew the planes into the building.

Paraphrasing Ghandi: 'If an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth actually worked we would all be blind and eating stewed fruit.'

-Kilwraith
by BOND
Friday Apr 12th, 2002 6:32 AM
Operation 911: NO SUICIDE PILOTS

by Carol A. Valentine
Curator, Waco Holocaust Electronic Museum
http://www.Public-Action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum


October 6, 2001--There were no "suicide" pilots on those September 11 jets. The jets were controlled by advanced robotics and
remote-control technology, not hijackers. Fantastic? Before I explain, read about the history-making robot/remote-controlled jet plane.

Global Hawk: Now You Have It ...

The Northrop Grumman Global Hawk is a robotized American military jet that has a wingspan of a Boeing 737. The excerpts below were
taken from an article entitled: "Robot plane flies Pacific unmanned," which appeared in the April 24, 2001 edition of Britain's International
Television News:

"The aircraft essentially flies itself, right from takeoff, right through to landing, and even taxiing off the runway," according to the Australian
Global Hawk manager Rod Smith.



A robot plane has made aviation history by becoming the first unmanned aircraft to fly across the Pacific Ocean.

The American high-altitude Global Hawk spy plane made flew (sic) across the ocean to Australia, defence officials confirmed.

The Global Hawk, a jet-powered aircraft with a wingspan equivalent to a Boeing 737 [NOTE: two of the aircraft involved in
the 911 crashes were Boeing 757s, two were Boeing 767s] flew from Edwards Air Force Base in California and landed late
on Monday at the Royal Australian Air Force base at Edinburgh, in South Australia state. . . .

It flies along a pre-programmed flight path, but a pilot monitors the aircraft during its flight via a sensor suite which provides
infra-red and visual images. (See: http://www.itn.co.uk/news/20010424/world/05robotplane.shtm or
http://web.archive.org/web/20010707000937/http://itn.co.uk/news/20010424/world/05robotplane.shtm
or http://www.Public-Action.com/911/itn

... And Now You Don't

Then, on September 20, 2001, The Economist published comments from a former boss of British Airways, Robert Ayling:

On autopilot into the future "Robert Ayling, a former boss of British Airways, suggested in The Financial Times this week
that aircraft could be commandeered from the ground and controlled remotely in the event of a hijack ... (as quoted by KC
<kettererkey [at] home.com> on alt.current-events.wtc explosion).

So, even though the ITN article was published on April 24, in September, after the 911 crashes, Mr. Ayling is pretending Global Hawk
technology is a thing of the future.

Then The New York Times ran this:

. . . In addition, the president [President Bush] said he would give grants to airlines to allow them to develop stronger cockpit
doors and transponders that cannot be switched off from the cockpit. Government grants would also be available to pay for
video monitors that would be placed in the cockpit to alert pilots to trouble in the cabin; and new technology, probably far
in the future, allowing air traffic controllers to land distressed planes by remote control. ("Bush to Increase Federal
Role in Security at Airports," The New York Times, Sept. 28, 2001; emphasis added.)

So, then, right after Operation 911 was pulled off, two men of world influence were pretending such technology had not yet been perfected.
That was dishonest. And revealing.

Run a Google Advanced Search on the phrase "Global Hawk," and you will find additional information. Meanwhile, I have attached the text of
the ITN article at the end of this piece.

[Note of Jan. 28, 2002: For an historical overview of automated plane landing systems, see "Thwarting skyjackings for the ground," by Alan
Staats, posted to FACSNET, October 2, 2001, at: http://www.facsnet.org/issues/specials/terrorism/aviation.php3
or http://www/Public-Action.com/911/facsnet/aviation.php3.

[The author states: "Controlling the aircraft from the ground is nothing new. The military has been flying obsolete high performance fighter
aircraft as target drones since the 1950s. In fact, NORAD (the North American Air Defense Command) had at its disposal a number of U.S.
Air Force General Dynamics F-106 Delta Dart fighter aircraft confingured to be remotely flown into combat as early as 1959 under the
auspices of a program known as SAGE. These aircraft could be started, taxied, taken off, flown into combat, fight, and return to a landing
entirely by remote control, with only human intervention needed being to fuel and re-arm them."]

Technically speaking, we could have a "suicidal" airplane fly into a building without a suicidal pilot. Robotics and remote control technology
has developed to the point that a high-altitude Global Hawk (or a low-altitude Tomahawk cruise missile) can be guided into collision with a
target without a Kamikaze pilot in the cockpit.

America And Its Allies Would Never Attack America!

Now, hold it there! This is US military technology. We all surely know that the US and its allies would not conspire to attack America! Or do
we?

The Army's School of Advanced Military Studies (SAMS ) thinks Israel is capable of doing exactly that. On September 10, 2001, The
Washington Times ran a front page story which quoted SAMS officers:

"Of the Mossad, the Israeli intelligence service, the SAMS officers say: 'Wildcard. Ruthless and cunning. Has capability to target US forces
and make it look like a Palestinian/Arab act.'" ("US troops would enforce peace under Army study," The Washington Times, Sept.. 10, 2001,
pg. A1, 9.) Just 24 hours after this story appeared, the Pentagon was hit and the Arabs were being blamed.

These SAMS officers are obviously interested in protecting their country, but not all Americans are. Some are traitors and pay allegiance to
Israel. Recall the June 8, 1967, Israeli attack on the USS Liberty, and American complicity in the attack.

During the Six Day War, the Liberty, an American intelligence gathering ship, was sailing in international waters. Israeli aircraft and torpedo
boats attacked it for 75 minutes. Read the story at the USS Liberty Memorial Website, at http://www.USSLiberty.com

When four US fighter jets from a nearby aircraft carrier came to protect the Liberty, President Johnson, through Defense Secretary Robert
McNamara, ordered the jets NOT to come to the Liberty's aid. Johnson reported said he did not care who was killed or what happened to the
ship, he just didn't want his allies embarassed.

http://157.238.204.10/lewis.txt
Mirror of this page:
http://www.public-action.com/911/USSLiberty-lewis.txt


The Israeli attack was allowed to cotinue. Thirty-fourAmericans were killed and 171 wounded, thanks to the treason of an American president
and defense seretary.

Now consider Operation Northwoods: In 1962, US military leaders designed a plan to conduct terrorist acts against Americans and blame
Cuba, to create popular sentiment for invasion of that country. Operation Northwoods included:

Plans to shoot down a CIA plane designed to replicate a passenger flight and announce that Cuban forces shot it down.
Creation of military casualties by blowing up a US ship in Guantanamo Bay and blaming Cuba: "....casualty lists in the US
newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation," and
Development of a terror campaign in the Miami and Washington, DC.

Information on Operation Northwoods can be found in James Bamford's Body of Secrets, (Doubleday, 2001), and at the following URLs.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/bal-te.md.nsa24apr24.story
http://www.earlham.edu/archive/opf-l/May-2001/msg00062.html
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/jointchiefs_010501.html

In other words, US allies and people within the US military establishment are not opposed to killing Americans, given the right goal.

[Note of Jan 28, 2001: In January, 2002, this author, Carol Valentine, discovered the Operation Northwoods documents were counterfeits.
That is, they had not been produced by the Pentagon, as claimed by James Bamford in "Body of Secrets". See: "Operation Northwoods: The
Counterfeit."]

Why Take Chances?

Put yourself in the shoes of the masterminds of Operation 911. The attacks had to be tightly coordinated. Four jets took off within 15
minutes of each other at Boston, Dulles, and Newark airports, and roughly two hours later, it was over. The masterminds couldn't afford to
take needless chances.

Years ago I saw a local TV news reporter interview a New York mugger about the occupational hazards of his trade. "It's a very, very
dangerous trade," the mugger informed the interviewer. "Some of these people are crazy! They fight back! You can get hurt!"

If a freelance New York mugger realized the unpredictable nature of human behavior, surely the pros who pulled this job off must have known
the same truth. Yet we are asked to believe that the culprits took four jet airliners, with four sets of crew and four sets of passengers -- armed
with (depending on the news reports you read) "knives," "plastic knives" and box cutters. Given the crazy and unpredictable nature of
humans, why would they try this bold plan when they were so poorly armed?

A lady's handbag -- given the weight of the contents most women insist on packing -- is an awesome weapon. I know, I have used mine in self
defense. Are we to believe that none of the women had the testosterone to knock those flimsy little weapons out of the hijackers' hands? And
what of the briefcases most men carry? Thrown, those briefcase can be potent weapons. Your ordinary every-day New York mugger would
never take the chances that our culprits took.

Flight attendant Michelle Heidenberger was on board Flight 77. She had been "trained to handle a hijacking. She knew not to let anyone in
the cockpit. She knew to tell the hijacker that she didn't have a key and would have to call the pilots. None of her training mattered." ( "On
flight 77: 'Our Plane Is Being Hijacked'," The Washington Post, September 12, 2001, pgs. A 1, 11.)

That's right, The Washington Post for once is telling the whole truth. Heidenberger's training didn't matter, the pilots' training didn't matter,
the ladies handbags didn't matter, the mens' briefcases didn't matter. The masterminds of Operation 911 knew that whatever happened aboard
those flights, the control of the planes was in their hands. Even if the crew and passengers fought back, my hypothesis is that they *could
not* have regained control of the planes, for the planes were being controlled by Global Hawk technology.

Flight 77: "The Plane Was Flown With Extraordinary Skill"

Once again: Operation 911 demanded that the attacks be tightly coordinated. Four jets took off within 15 minutes of each other at Boston,
Dulles, and Newark airports, and roughly two hours later, it was over. If we are to believe the story we are being told, the masterminds needed,
at an absolute minimum, pilots who could actually fly the planes and who could arrive at the right place at the right time.

American Airlines Flight 77, a Boeing 757, took off from Dulles Airport in northern Virginia at 8:10 a.m. and crashed into the Pentagon at
9:40 a.m. The Washington Post, September 12, says this: "Aviation sources said that the plane was flown with extraordinary skill, making it
highly likely that a trained pilot was at the helm, possibly one of the hijackers. Someone even knew how to turn off the transponder, a move
that is considerably less than obvious."

According to the article, the air traffic controllers "had time to warn the White House that the jet was aimed directly at the president's mansion
and was traveling at a gut-wrenching speed--full throttle.

"But just as the plane seemed to be on a suicide mission into the White House, the unidentified pilot executed a pivot so tight that it reminded
observers of a fighter jet maneuver. The plane circled 270 degrees from the right to approach the Pentagon from the west, whereupon Flight
77 fell below radar level, vanishing from controller's screens, the sources said." ("On Flight 77: 'Our Plane Is Being Hijacked'," The
Washington Post, September 12, 2001, pgs. 1 & 11)

Meet Ace Suicide Pilot Hani Hanjour

Let's look at what we know about the alleged suicide pilot of American Airlines Flight 77, Hani Hanjour. According to press reports, Hanjour
had used Bowie's Maryland Freeway Airport three times since mid-August as he attempted to get permission to use one of the airport's
planes. This from The Prince George's Journal [Maryland] September 18, 2001:

Marcel Bernard, the chief flight instructor at the airport, said the man named Hani Hanjour went into the air in a Cessna 172
with instructors from the airport three times beginning the second week of August and had hoped to rent a plane from the
airport.

According to published reports, law enforcement sources say Hanjour, in his mid-twenties, is suspected of crashing the
American Airlines Flight 77 into the Pentagon. . . .

Hanjour had his pilot's license, said Bernard, but needed what is called a 'check-out' done by the airport to gauge a pilot's
skills before he or she is able to rent a plane at Freeway Airport which runs parallel to Route 50.

Instructors at the school told Bernard that after three times in the air, they still felt he was unable to fly solo and that Hanjour
seemed disappointed ...

... Published reports said Hanjour obtained his pilot's license in April of 1999, but it expired six months later because he did
not complete a required medical exam. He also was trained for a few months at a private school in Scottsdale, Ariz., in 1996,
but did not finish the course because instructors felt he was not capable.

Hanjour had 600 hours listed in his log book, Bernard said, and instructors were surprised he was not able to fly better with
the amount of experience .S Pete Goulatta, a special agent and spokesman for the FBI, said it is an on-going criminal
investigation and he could not comment. (pg. 1.)

If you were the mastermind who planned this breathtaking terrorist attack, would you trust a man who took 600 hours of flying time and still
could not do the job? Who was paying for Hanjour's lessons, and why?

Yet this is the man the FBI would have us believe flew Flight 77 into the Pentagon "with extraordinary skill." He could not even fly a Cessna
172!

Yes, maneuvering a Boeing 757 into a 270 degree turn under tense conditions (remember, the culprits were outmanned and had crude, non
lethal weapons) demanded the skill of a fighter pilot. But why would those bad, bad, Muslims want to do such a thing?

By shifting the plane's position so radically, Flight 77 managed to hit the side of the Pentagon *directly opposite* the side on which the
offices of the Secretary of Defense and Joint Chief of Staff were located. (Coincidentally, Flight 77 hit the offices of Army operations (US
News and World Report, Sept. 14, 2001, pg. 25. Recall, it was the Army that warned of the possibility that Israel's Mossad might make a terror
attack against the US.) The masterminds of Operation 911 were prepared to sacrifice the rank and file, but carefully avoided touching a hair
on the head of the brass.

It reminds one of Operation Northwoods, doesn't it? Remember the rank and file sailors who were to be sacrificed on a US Naval vessel in
Guantanamo Bay, in order to justify war with Cuba? No, neither Hanjour nor any other Muslim suicide pilot was at the controls of this
plane. It had been fitted with Global Hawk technology and was being remotely controlled.

Let's Meet The Other Aces

According to The Washington Post (September 19, 2001, "Hijack Suspects Tried Many Flight Schools," Mohammed Atta, alleged hijacker
of Flight 11, and Marwanal-Al-Shehhi, alleged hijacker of Flight 175, both of which crashed into the World Trade Center, attended hundreds
of hours of lessons at Huffman Aviation, a flight school in Venice, Florida. They also took lessons at Jones Aviation Flying Service Inc.,
which operates from the Sarasota Bradenton International Airport. According to the Post, neither experience "worked out."

A flight instructor at Jones who asked not be identified said Atta and Al Shehhi arrived in September or October and asked to
be given flight training. Atta, the instructor said, was particularly difficult. "He would not look at your face," the instructor
said. "When you talked to him, he could not look you in the eye. His attention span was very short."

The instructor said neither man was able to pass a Stage I rating test to track and intercept. After offering some harsh words,
the instructor said, the two moved on .... "We didn't kick them out, but they didn't live up to our standards." (page A 15.)

Or try The Washington Post: Alleged hijackers Nawaq Alhazmi (Flight 77), Khaid Al-Midhar (Flight 77) and Hani Hanjour (Flight 77) all
spent time in San Diego. "Two of the men, Alhazmi and Al-Midhar, also briefly attended a local fight school, but they were dropped because
of their limited English and incompetence at the controls....

Last spring, two of the men visited Montgomery Field, a community airport ... and sought flying lessons. They spoke to
instructors at Sorbi's Flying Club, which allowed them to take only two lessons before advising them to quit.

"Their English was horrible, and their mechanical skills were even worse," said an instructor, who asked not to be named. "It
was like they had hardly even ever driven a car ..."

"They seemed like nice guys," the instructor said, "but in the plane, they were dumb and dumber." ("San Diegans See Area as
Likely Target," The Washington Post, September 24, 2001, pg. A7.)

But the masterminds would not need competent pilots -- if they had Global Hawk technology.

Missing: Air Traffic Control Conversations

Now, let's look at the contemporaneous media coverage of Operation 911. Did you notice that during the event and for weeks after, we heard
no excerpts from the conversations between the air traffic control centers and the pilots of the four aircraft?

Those conversations are recorded by the air traffic control centers. Surely those conversations were newsworthy. They should have been
available to the media immediately. Why didn't we hear them? I believe the answer to this question is simple:

If we could hear the conversations that took place, we would hear the airline pilots telling air traffic control that the controls of their airplanes
would not respond. The pilots, of course, would have no way of knowing that their craft had been fitted with Global Hawk technology
programmed to take over their planes.

But no, we MUST believe the crashes were the work of Muslim terrorists. Therefore we were not permitted to hear the news as it happened.
We will have to wait for the FBI/military intelligence people to cook up doctored and fictional conversations. They will then serve them to the
public through the complicitous mass media and strategically placed "investigative reporters," and we will be asked to swallow them. Many of
us will. (See The Christian Science Monitor story discussed below, "Communication With Flight 11.")

Yassaboss

That the airlines cooperated and did whatever the FBI told them to do is no secret. The Washington Post of September 12, 2001, says this:
"Details about who was on Flight 77, when it took off and what happened on board were tightly held by airline, airport and security officials
last night. All said that the FBI had asked them not to divulge details."

Think back to Operation Northwoods in which the Pentagon considered reporting a bogus passenger airplane being shot down by a
non-existent Cuban fighter jet. The Pentagon was obviously confident that some airline would go along with the deception. Not surprising,
considering many commercial airline pilots and executives are former military pilots, and the government controls the airline industry in many
ways. These pilots and executives were trained to do as they are told, and would be out of a job if they broke the rules.

Why would the take-off time and the passenger list be held secret? The passengers, crew, and culprits were all dead. The relatives must have
known that when they heard the news of the crashes. Flight departure and arrival times had been public knowledge. The masterminds knew
the details of their own plans.

No, it was the PUBLIC that was being denied information, and the significant information being denied was the conversations between the air
traffic controllers and the pilots. Recall that during the Vietnam War, the US "secretly" bombed Cambodia. The bombing was no secret to the
Cambodians. It was only a secret from the American public, who were paying for the war and may have objected to the slaughter. And that's
the only purpose of the Operation 911 secrecy: To keep the information from the public.

Communication With Flight 11

American Airlines Flight 11, a Boeing 767, left Boston at 7:59 a.m. on its way to Los Angeles. It was allegedly piloted by Mohamed Atta, one
of the pilots who couldn't fly, discussed above. Flight 11 crashed into the north tower of the WTC at 8:45 a.m.

Boston airport officials said they did not spot the plane's course until it had crashed, and said the control tower had no
unusual communications with the pilots or any crew member." (The Washington Post, September 12, 2001, "At Logan
Airport, Nobody Saw Plane's Sharp Turn South," pg. A 10.)

Sorry, this report is not credible. Airplanes are tracked constantly. The skies over the US are far too busy for us to have a lackadaisical
attitude.

Note the date of The Washington Post story: September 12. Now compare it to the very different story that appeared a day later, in The
Christian Science Monitor:

An American Airlines pilot stayed at the helm of hijacked Flight 11 much of the way from Boston to New York, sending
surreptitious radio transmissions to authorities on the ground as he flew.

Because the pilot's voice was seldom heard in these covert transmissions, it was not clear to the listening air-traffic controllers
which of the two pilots was flying the Boeing 767. What is clear is that the pilot was secretly trying to convey to authorities
the flight's desperate situation, according to controllers familiar with the tense minutes after Flight 11 was hijacked.

The story goes on to say that the conversations were overheard by the controllers because the pilot had pushed a "push-to-talk" button. "When
he [the pilot] pushed the button and the terrorist spoke, we knew. There was this voice that was threatening the pilot, and it was clearly
threatening. During these transmissions, the pilot's voice and the heavily accented voice of a hijacker were clearly audible ...."

There are some logical problems with this account, of course, not the least of which is that a) we are told the pilot's voice was seldom heard, b)
it was not possible to tell which pilot was at the controls, and c) during the transmissions the pilot's voice was clearly audible.

This accounting is spook talk. Let's get to the heart:

All of it was recorded by a Federal Aviation Administration traffic control center. Those tapes are now presumed to be in the
hands of federal law-enforcement officials, who arrived at the flight-control facility minutes after Flight 11 crashed into the
World Trade Center. The tapes presumably could provide clues about the hijackers -- and may become even more important
if they plane's 'black boxes' are damaged or never found. ("Controllers' tale of Flight 11," The Christian Science Monitor,
September 13, 2001)

So, yes, the same "federal law-enforcement" machinery that cooked up the David Koresh negotiation tapes and arranged to destroy the
evidence at the Mt. Carmel Center in the April 19 inferno will be handling these records, too.

Flight 175

The Washington Post reported a similar story for United Airlines Flight 175, which crashed into the south tower of the World Trade Center
tower at 9:06 a.m.

Less than 30 minutes into a journey that was to have taken six hours, Flight 175 took a sharp turn south into central New
Jersey, near Trenton, an unusual diversion for a plane heading west, airline employees said. It then headed directly toward
Manhattan.

Somewhere between Philadelphia and Newark--less than 90 minutes from Manhattan--the aircraft made its final radar contact,
according to a statement released by United Airlines. (The Washington Post, "Everything Seemed Normal When They Left'
Boston Airport," September 12, 2001, pg. A10.)

Once again, there was no contemporaneous, detailed, first hand information from the air traffic controllers about communication from the air
traffic controllers.

Of course the controls would not respond to manual directions if they were under the control of Global Hawk.

Flight 11/Flight 175 Hijacker Passport Found

We have just mentioned the distinct possibility that the masterminds of Operation 911 will manufacture evidence. Well, here is a CNN story
for your consideration:

In New York, several blocks from the ruins of the World Trade Center, a passport authorities said belonged to one of the
hijackers was discovered a few days ago, according to city Police Commissioner Bernard Kerik. That has prompted the FBI
and police to widen the search area beyond the immediate crash site. ("Leaders urge 'normal' Monday after week of terror,"
September 16, 2001 Posted: 7:07 p.m. EDT (2307 GMT) http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/16/gen.america.under.attack

We are asked to believe that one of the hijackers brought his passport with him on a domestic fight, even though he knew he would not need it
then, or ever again; that upon impact the passport flew from the hijacker's pocket (or was he holding it in his hands?), that the passport flew out
of the aircraft, that it flew out of the burning tower, and that it was carried by the air currents and landed safely, where it could be discovered,
several blocks away ...

Lawd, WHO WRITES THIS STUFF?

Flight 93

United Airlines Flight 93, a Boeing 757, was scheduled to leave Newark Airport at 8:01 a.m. for San Francisco. We are told it crashed into an
abandoned coal mine near Shanksville, Pennsylvania, at 10:37 a.m., one hour and 50 minutes after the first World Trade Center tower was hit.

Without a doubt, Flight 93 was shot down. The first TV network reports said exactly that: Flight 93 had been shot down by a military jet.
That information even made it into the print media.

Local residents said they had seen a second plane in the area, possibly an F-16 fighter, and burning debris falling from the
sky. [FBI Agent] Crowley said investigators had determined that two other planes were nearby but didn't know if either was
military. ("Stories swirl around Pa. crash; black box found," USA Today, September 14, 2001.)

Pieces of the wreckage have been found as far away as New Baltimore, about eight miles from the crash site. When the
eastbound plane crashed, a 9-knot wind was blowing from the southeast, [FBI Agent] Crowley said. ("Bereaved may visit
Flight 93 site," Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, Friday, September 14, 2001.)

On September 11, "[r]esidents and workers at businesses outside Shanksville, Somerset County, reported discovering clothing, books, papers,
and what appear to be human remains. Some residents said they collected bags-full of items to be turned over to investigators. Others reported
what appeared to be crash debris floating in Indian Lake, nearly six miles from the crash site." ("Investigators locate 'black box' from Flight
93; widen search area in Somerset crash," [Pittsburgh] Post Gazette, September 13, 2001.)
http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010913somersetp3.asp

The Washington Post reported that, just as Congressional leaders were discussing shooting the plane down, they learned it had crashed.
("Jetliner Was Diverted Toward Washington Before Crash in Pa," Sept. 12, 2001, pg. A10.) The North American Aerospace Defense
Command (NORAD) and the FBI denied that the plane had been shot down.

The FBI blamed the spread of debris over an 8-mile area on a 10 mph wind that was blowing at the time. Of the debris, TIME Magazine of
September 11 says: "The largest pieces of the plane still extant are barely bigger than a telephone book." (Pages in this edition are not
numbered: this quote appears on what should be pg. 40).

Planes that crash do not disintegrate in this manner. However, the assertion that the hijackers had a bomb on board, and the bomb exploded,
might provide an explanation for the disintegration.

There is a problem with this story, however: Hijackers who planned to crash the plane into the Capitol would not want, or need, a bomb. In
fact, a bomb might be counterproductive: Suppose it went off before the plane hit the Capitol? The mission would be ruined. Bringing a
bomb on board would greatly increase chances the hijacker who carried the bomb would be detected when boarding. And it's hard to imagine
why hijackers would mutilate and dismember passengers with plastic knives and box cutters when they were planning to blow them up,
anyway. No, the bomb story does not wash. You can read one such story at: http://www.msnbc.com/news/632626.asp

More Missing Air Traffic Control Conversations

According to a an ABC news report by Peter Dizikes on September 13: "Federal Aviation Administration data shows Flight 93 followed its
normal flight plan until it neared Cleveland, where the plane took a hard turn south.

"That marks the point at which the plane must have been hijacked, investigators say. Then it took a turn east."

Note that the investigators used the phrase "must have been" hijacked. Didn't they know? Weren't the air traffic controllers in touch with the
pilots? But the direction changes with the next paragraph:

ABCTVNEWS has learned that shortly before the plane changed directions, someone in the cockpit radioed in and asked the
FAA for a new flight plan, with a final destination of Washington.

Now THAT conversation must have been interesting! You can imagine the response of the air traffic controller: "Excuse me? Flight 93,
you're in the middle of a scheduled trip to San Francisco, but you're just changed your mind and want to spend the day in Washington? Please
explain."

According to an MSNBC story of September 22, 2001, Flight 93 was late taking off, and did not make its way down the runway until 8:41
a.m. ("The Final Moments of Flight 93" http://www.msnbc.com/news/632626.asp)

It was aloft for almost two hours, crashing at 10:37 a.m. Making a rough estimate from the distances traveled and the time in the air (see
TIME Magazine, September 11, "The Paths of Destruction" ), Flight 93 went off course sometime between 9:45 a.m. and 10:00 a.m. Recall
that both towers had been hit by 9:06 a.m., and the New York airports had been closed since 9:17 a.m. It would have been impossible for an
air traffic controller on duty between 9:45--10:00 a.m. not to know that commercial air traffic in the US was in a dire emergency from "suicide
planes."

And now Flight 93 calls in, asking permission to do a U-turn, fly east an hour and a half, and land in Washington DC ??? What, the pilot was
nervous and didn't know there were airports in the midwest?

I'd love to hear the REAL conversation between Flight 93 and the air traffic controllers, wouldn't you? But I think we'll have to wait a while ...

Come to think of it, why would a *hijacker* call in to ask for an OK to change directions?

Conflicting And Unbelievable Reports

The networks dropped the story that Flight 93 had been shot down and now said that Flight 93 passengers called their families and described a
hijacking. The hijackers were armed with box razors, and overwhelmed the passengers and crew, and told the passengers they planned to crash
into the Capitol in Washington, DC. The hijackers also mutilated and dismembered the passengers, presumably with their plastic knives and
box cutters. What a messy job that must have been! We were not told if the hijackers chatted to the passengers about their plans before, after,
or while they were committing the mutilation/dismemberment. (I heard the mutilation/dismemberment story once while watching network TV
coverage. Then the story was dropped.)

On the other hand, TIME Magazine reported that one of the passengers called home to say: "We have been hijacked. They are being kind."
(TIME, Sept. 24, pg. 73.)

Are we believing this? I'm not.

No. Something went wrong with the masterminds' plan. They could not afford to have Flight 93 make a conventional landing and allow the
pilots and passengers to talk about their experience. They could not afford to have the "hijackers" survive and the electronic controls of the
plane examined. So Flight 93 was shot down.

Who Were Those People, Anyway?

Before September 11, the combined forces of US military and domestic intelligence -- the CIA, the FBI, the Defense Intelligence Agency, the
National Security Agency -- were clueless that such a catastrophic event would occur. Yet a day or so later, the FBI had secured the names
and mugshots of each of the 19 hijackers. How did the FBI know who the hijackers were? After all, all the eyewitnesses are dead. How could
the FBI distinguish between "regular" Muslims and hijacker Muslims on those flights? Or did they just go through the passenger lists culling
out the Muslim-sounding names and labeling the people bearing those names as hijackers? "You're Muslim so you're a hijacker..."

On September 30 I looked at the passenger lists of those four flights. To my surprise, the lists contained none of the hijackers' names. Here
are the URLs I checked:

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/victims/AA11.victims.html
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/victims/AA77.victims.html
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/victims/ua175.victims.html
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/victims/ua93.victims.html

Then I went searching on Usenet for more information. I found that <AFJS [at] webtv.net> had noticed the hijackers' names were not on the
passenger lists on September 27, on alt.culture.alaska, "Re: BLACK BOXES AND BODIES -(2). " I don't know what you'll find when you
look at the passenger lists, but the historical record is there.

The FBI may be lying, of course, and the airlines telling the truth: Perhaps none of the "hijackers' were passengers on those four planes. If that
is true, the airlines are helping the FBI commit a most grievous fraud on the public. What does that say for the airlines' integrity? In either
case, we can place little confidence in the veracity of the information in those lists. Names could have been added just as easily as they may
have been deleted.

Don't Take The Credit, Take The Blame

By now you've realized that it's OK to believe in conspiracies provided they are Muslim conspiracies. In fact, we MUST believe that a man
who dresses in sheets lives in a tent or a cave in the middle of nowhere - Osama bin Laden -- was the mastermind. He used his $300 million
fortune to pull off Operation 911. Come to think of it, how do we know the size of his fortune? Does the FBI know his banker? And given
that the world's banking system is highly centralized and in the hands of Mr. bin Laden's avowed enemies, how could our terrorist tent-dweller
have retained his fortune all these years? If Mr. bin Laden could have pulled this off in New York, why didn't he pick on his more direct
enemy, Israel, and do a 911 on them?

Brilliant as Mr. bin Laden is, he forgot to take credit for the attack. Even worse, he forgot to issue any demands. He allowed his operatives to
use their Muslim names and leave a clear trail for the FBI to follow. Mr. Atta, the pilot of Flight 11 (north World Trade Center), was
particularly helpful. He kindly left his car at the Boston Airport. Luckily, an unnamed source drew the FBI's attention to this car. According
to radio reports, the FBI found a suicide note written in Arabic and a copy of the Koran in the car. Mr. Atta liked to write in Arabic; he wrote
a second, long document in that language, which, for some reason, he put in his luggage. Coincidentally, this luggage did not make it to Flight
11, so the FBI found it at the airport. Another lucky break! But why Mr. Atta would take luggage on a suicide mission has not been
explained. The same note was carried by one of the hijackers on Flight 93, and, Mother of Miracles! survived the crash, even though the
airplane itself was torn into shards. Everything was so amazing that Bob Woodward, the man who talks to the dead, was called in to write a
story about it all. See "In Hijacker's Bags. a Call to Planning, Prayer, and Death," The Washington Post, September 28, 2001. Formerly at:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37629 2001Sep27.html

Read Mr. Woodward's article. Mr. Atta sounds like a Jewish lawyer with his wires crossed, exhorting his co-conspirators to remember their
wills and reminding them that Mohammed was an "optimist;" exhorting his fellows to "utilize" (ugh--there's a lawyer's word for you -- what's
Arabic for "utilize"?) their few hours left to ask God's forgiveness. God's forgiveness for what? They were about to die Muslm heros,
Muslim martyrs in Allah's holy cause ... what need would Allah have to forgive them?

Sure, we believe every word. We swallow the whole story.

On the other hand, here is the International Television News article on the Global Hawk:



Robot plane flies Pacific unmanned http://www.itn.co.uk/news/20010424/world/05robotplane.shtm or
http://web.archive.org/web/20010707000937/http://itn.co.uk/news/20010424/world/05robotplane.shtm
or http://www.Public-Action.com/911/itn (ITN Entertainment April 24, 2001) --- "The aircraft essentially flies itself, right
from take-off, right through to landing, and even taxiing off the runway." - Australian Global Hawk manager Rod Smith.


A robot plane has made aviation history by becoming the first unmanned aircraft to fly across the Pacific Ocean.

The American high-altitude Global Hawk spy plane made flew (sic) across the ocean to Australia, defence officials confirmed.

The Global Hawk, a jet-powered aircraft with a wingspan equivalent to a Boeing 737, flew from Edwards Air Force Base in
California and landed late on Monday at the Royal Australian Air Force base at Edinburgh, in South Australia state.

The 8600 mile (13840 km) flight, at an altitude of almost 12.5 miles (20 km), took 22 hours and set a world record for the
furthest a robotic aircraft has flown between two points.

The Global Hawk flies along a pre-programmed flight path, but a pilot monitors the aircraft during its flight via a sensor suite
which provides infra-red and visual images.

"The aircraft essentially flies itself, right from takeoff, right through to landing, and even taxiing off the runway," said Rod
Smith, the Australian Global Hawk manager.

"While in Australia, the Global Hawk will fly about 12 maritime surveillance and reconnaissance missions around Australia's
remote coastline.

"It can fly non-stop for 36 hours and search 52,895 square miles (37,000 square km) in 24 hours. Australia is assessing the
aircraft and might buy it in the future.

"Emerging systems such as the Global Hawk offer Australia great potential for surveillance, reconnaissance and ultimately the
delivery of combat power," said Brendan Nelson, parliamentary secretary to the Australian defence minister.

"Nelson said the Global Hawk could be used in combat to 'detect, classify and monitor' targets as they approached the
Australian coast."

[The article was revised on October 8, 2001. Other notes added as indicated.]


by Eric
Friday Apr 12th, 2002 6:54 AM
Sure, I'll listen to the facts. Sure, I wanna know the truth. But I'm not gonna buy and read a book about hemp to find it out. My ego has nothing to do with it.

The fact remains that there is not one stitch of solid evidence of a government conspiracy. Not one. There is a lot of conjecture and hearsay. Many creative, imaginative questions. Serveral people (like Ruppert) that are generating wealth and pseudo-fame by fabricating complex scenarios attempting to discredit the government, incriminate cooporations, etc. I call it opportunism. But all they can do is ask questions. Hell, that's an easy task. See, watch how easy it is... Did aliens crash land at area 51? Why is the government conceiling this from us? And what about the Philidelphia experiment? Were they really able to make a battleship invisible? This is stupid.

Try answering those questions with objective facts. If you have the answers then right 'em down. Publish 'em. Post 'em on the internet. You'll be a hero. Tell us the names of the individuals at the helm.

As far as my patriotism goes, there is no doubt. I am. I don't have to justify it to you or anyone else.
by Eric
Friday Apr 12th, 2002 7:46 AM
>The official version is itself a conspiracy theory.

Yes, I agree. A consipiracy perpetrated by Arab terrorists to commit heinous acts of terrorism against the United States.

>Where's the proof?

Good God! Are you blind? Deaf? Live under a rock?
At this point, the question doesn't even deserve an answer. But I'll try to make a simple point.

Which makes more sense?

Solution 1: A wide scale, multifacited, networked, secretive, organized plot by upper tier government officials and major corporations to kill thousands of Americans in one swift stroke in order to ... make more money.

or

Solution 2: A group of fanatical religious hooligans backed by another wealthy fanatical religious hooligan carrying out an act of terrorism against a society because ... they hate it.

The simplest solution is often the best (and correct) choice.

But by all means, believe whatever you like.

by Eric
Friday Apr 12th, 2002 9:02 AM
>This is about evidence. Evidence, not subjective >opinion, is what counts. Where's the evidence?

Ok, I guess you do live under a rock.

Evidence:

http://www.september11news.com/

Read up.
by brigg
Friday Apr 12th, 2002 9:24 AM
Hey Don Quixote!?! On another post you were all concerned about how it might not have been a plane that hit the Pentagon and a conspiracy theory surrounding that. I gave you some excellent references to learn on your own. Did you even once get off your ass to contact the AOPA to see about any upcoming seminars or did you even make the effort to attend your local Civil Air Patrol meeting to ask people in the know regarding your questions? My guess is NO! So don't hand me this shit about evidence and wanting to know the truth. That's the furtherest thing from your mind.

Eric, you wasting your time with this one. He's his own authority. Give him time and for a source he'll link to himself.

by Eric
Friday Apr 12th, 2002 9:36 AM
<An ad hominem, as we have been so frequently reminded of late, is not a rebutal.

True, but it can very well be a precursor to one.

>This is evidence:

>http://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/fre/overview.html

>http://www.law.cornell.edu/uniform/evidence.html

is anything accept evidence and certainly has no bearing on the issue. Here we have Nessie, the self proclaimed anarchist citing the rules law. Hypocracy at its finest.

>http://www.september11news.com/

>is not evidence.

Here. Let me hold the hand of the great, rule of law citing, self proclaimed anarchist, Don Quixote like, non ad hominem as a rebutal rebutal maker and be more specific:

http://www.september11news.com/OsamaEvidence.htm

is evidence.

Read up.

Had you've done so the first time, I'd not have had to waste my time and embarrass you like this.


by Eric
Friday Apr 12th, 2002 9:52 AM
or is this guy a froot-loop?

>If you want us to believe that the official version is true, then prove it.

From my first communication with you, I repeat...

>But by all means, believe whatever you like.

No wonder you don't read up. You CANT read.
by Eric
Friday Apr 12th, 2002 10:41 AM
>(1.) The Chain of Custody hasn't even been declared, let alone verified.

Good point. If we were trying this in a court of law (or presenting this to an ad hoc if you prefer) that might be an issue to consider. Otherwise, I say, "Big whoop."

There's no official judicial process to substantiate evidence in the eyes of the masses. Each will see/hear what he/she likes, and igonore the rest.

(2.) That guy doesn't even look like OBL

Your opinion. Again I say, "Big whoop".

(3.) I also saw on TV a giant lizard trashing mid town. Should I believe that without question, too?

And finally, to quote a redundant, opinionated government supporter we all know and love:

"By all means, believe what you like." - Eric

by BOND
Friday Apr 12th, 2002 4:02 PM
Let the Bloody Truth Be Told:
A Chronology of U.S. Imperialism

B-52 carpetbombing Vietnam


My Lai Massacre

Other Useful Links on U.S. Imperialism
added by Jay Moore

William Blum Page (ThirdWorldTraveler) -- excerpts from Bill Blum's Killing Hope: U.S. Military and CIA
Interventions Since World War II (Monroe ME: Common Courage Press, 1995) and other essays.
Military Spending Data (Council for a Livable World)
"Imperialism 101" -- Chapter One from Michael Parenti's Against Empire (San Francisco: City Lights,
1995).
"Murdering History" -- Chapter 10 from Noam Chomsky's Year 501
Anti-Imperialism in the United States, 1898-1935 by Jim Zwick, Syracuse University
The Age of Imperialism -- part of an Online History of the U.S.
Imperialism: The Highest Stage of Capitalism -- 1916 classic by V.I. Lenin
Selected Bibliography of Books on U.S. Foreign Policy and Empire by Will Miller, Dept. of Philosophy,
University of Vermont
U.S. War Crimes in the 20th Century (Milwaukee Pledge of Resistance)

One Hundred Years of Intervention
by Zoltan Grossman

The following is a partial list of U.S. military interventions from 1890 to 2001. This guide does
not include:

mobilizations of the National Guard
offshore shows of naval strength
reinforcements of embassy personnel
the use of non-Defense Department personnel (such as the Drug Enforcement
Administration)
military exercises
non-combat mobilizations (such as replacing postal strikers)
the permanent stationing of armed forces
covert actions where the U.S. did not play a command and control role
the use of small hostage rescue units
most uses of proxy troops
U.S. piloting of foreign warplanes
foreign disaster assistance
military training and advisory programs not involving direct combat
civic action programs
and many other military activities.

Among sources used, beside news reports, are the Congressional Record (23 June 1969),
180 Landings by the U.S. Marine Corp History Division, Ege & Makhijani in Counterspy
(July-Aug, 1982), "Instances of Use of United States Forces Abroad, 1798-1993" by Ellen C.
Collier of the Library of Congress Congressional Research Service, and Ellsberg in Protest &
Survive.


Zoltan Grossman currently works with a group called Midwest Treaty
Network which is fighting a proposed Exxon mine adjacent to a Wisconsin
Chippewa Indian reservation. The Chippewa have joined with
environmentalists, sportfishermen (who had fought them over treaty rights),
and unionists. Check out their Web site at http://www.alphacdc.com/treaty
.




SOUTH DAKOTA
1890 (-?)
Troops
300 Lakota Indians massacred at Wounded Knee.
ARGENTINA
1890
Troops
Buenos Aires interests protected.
CHILE
1891
Troops
Marines clash with nationalist rebels.
HAITI
1891
Troops
Black revolt on Navassa defeated.
IDAHO
1892
Troops
Army suppresses silver miners' strike.
HAWAII
1893 (-?)
Naval, troops
Independent kingdom overthrown, annexed.
CHICAGO
1894
Troops
Breaking of rail strike, 34 killed.
NICARAGUA
1894
Troops
Month-long occupation of Bluefields.
CHINA
1894-95
Naval, troops
Marines land in Sino-Japanese War
KOREA
1894-96
Troops
Marines kept in Seoul during war.
PANAMA
1895
Troops, naval
Marines land in Colombian province.
NICARAGUA
1896
Troops
Marines land in port of Corinto.
CHINA
1898-1900
Troops
Boxer Rebellion fought by foreign armies.
PHILIPPINES
1898-1910 (-?)
Naval, troops
Seized from Spain, killed 600,000 Filipinos
CUBA
1898-1902 (-?)
Naval, troops
Seized from Spain, still hold Navy base.
PUERTO RICO
1898 (-?)
Naval, troops
Seized from Spain, occupation continues.
GUAM
1898 (-?)
Naval, troops
Seized from Spain, still use as base.
MINNESOTA
1898 (-?)
Troops
Army battles Chippewa at Leech Lake.
NICARAGUA
1898
Troops
Marines land at port of San Juan del Sur.
SAMOA
1899 (-?)
Troops
Battle over succession to throne.
NICARAGUA
1899
Troops
Marines land at port of Bluefields.
IDAHO
1899-1901
Troops
Army occupies Coeur d'Alene mining region.
OKLAHOMA
1901
Troops
Army battles Creek Indian revolt.
PANAMA
1901-14
Naval, troops
Broke off from Colombia 1903, annexed Canal Zone 1914.
HONDURAS
1903
Troops
Marines intervene in revolution.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC
1903-04
Troops
U.S. interests protected in Revolution.
KOREA
1904-05
Troops
Marines land in Russo-Japanese War.
CUBA
1906-09
Troops
Marines land in democratic election.
NICARAGUA
1907
Troops
"Dollar Diplomacy" protectorate set up.
HONDURAS
1907
Troops
Marines land during war with Nicaragua
PANAMA
1908
Troops
Marines intervene in election contest.
NICARAGUA
1910
Troops
Marines land in Bluefields and Corinto.
HONDURAS
1911
Troops
U.S. interests protected in civil war.
CHINA
1911-41
Naval, troops
Continuous occupation with flare-ups.
CUBA
1912
Troops
U.S. interests protected in civil war.
PANAMA
1912
Troops
Marines land during heated election.
HONDURAS
1912
Troops
Marines protect U.S. economic interests.
NICARAGUA
1912-33
Troops, bombing
10-year occupation, fought guerillas
MEXICO
1913
Naval
Americans evacuated during revolution.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC
1914
Naval
Fight with rebels over Santo Domingo.
COLORADO
1914
Troops
Breaking of miners' strike by Army.
MEXICO
1914-18
Naval, troops
Series of interventions against nationalists.
HAITI
1914-34
Troops, bombing
19-year occupation after revolts.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC
1916-24
Troops
8-year Marine occupation.
CUBA
1917-33
Troops
Military occupation, economic protectorate.
WORLD WAR I
1917-18
naval, troops
Ships sunk, fought Germany for 1 1/2 years.
RUSSIA
1918-22
Naval, troops
Five landings to fight Bolsheviks
PANAMA
1918-20
Troops
"Police duty" during unrest after elections.
HONDURAS
1919
Troops
Marines land during election campaign.
YUGOSLAVIA
1919
Troops/Marines
intervene for Italy against Serbs in Dalmatia.
GUATEMALA
1920
Troops
2-week intervention against unionists.
WEST VIRGINIA
1920-21
Troops, bombing
Army intervenes against mineworkers.
TURKEY
1922
Troops
Fought nationalists in Smyrna.
CHINA
1922-27
Naval, troops
Deployment during nationalist revolt.
HONDURAS
1924-25
Troops
Landed twice during election strife.
PANAMA
1925
Troops
Marines suppress general strike.
CHINA
1927-34
Troops
Marines stationed throughout the country.
EL SALVADOR
1932
Naval
Warships send during Marti revolt.
WASHINGTON DC
1932
Troops
Army stops WWI vet bonus protest.
WORLD WAR II
1941-45
Naval, troops, bombing, nuclear
Hawaii bombed, fought Japan, Italy and Germay for 3 years; first nuclear war.
DETROIT
1943
Troops
Army put down Black rebellion.
IRAN
1946
Nuclear threat
Soviet troops told to leave north.
YUGOSLAVIA
1946
Nuclear threat, naval
Response to shoot-down of US plane.
URUGUAY
1947
Nuclear threat
Bombers deployed as show of strength.
GREECE
1947-49
Command operation
U.S. directs extreme-right in civil war.
GERMANY
1948
Nuclear Threat
Atomic-capable bombers guard Berlin Airlift.
CHINA
1948-49
Troops/Marines
evacuate Americans before Communist victory.
PHILIPPINES
1948-54
Command operation
CIA directs war against Huk Rebellion.
PUERTO RICO
1950
Command operation
Independence rebellion crushed in Ponce.
KOREA
1951-53 (-?)
Troops, naval, bombing , nuclear
threats
U.S./So. Korea fights China/No. Korea to stalemate; A-bomb threat in 1950, and
against China in 1953. Still have bases.
IRAN
1953
Command Operation
CIA overthrows democracy, installs Shah.
VIETNAM
1954
Nuclear threat
French offered bombs to use against seige.
GUATEMALA
1954
Command operation, bombing,
nuclear threat
CIA directs exile invasion after new gov't nationalized U.S. company lands; bombers
based in Nicaragua.
EGYPT
1956
Nuclear threat, troops
Soviets told to keep out of Suez crisis; Marines evacuate foreigners.
LEBANON
l958
Troops, naval
Marine occupation against rebels.
IRAQ
1958
Nuclear threat
Iraq warned against invading Kuwait.
CHINA
l958
Nuclear threat
China told not to move on Taiwan isles.
PANAMA
1958
Troops
Flag protests erupt into confrontation.
VIETNAM
l960-75
Troops, naval, bombing, nuclear
threats
Fought South Vietnam revolt & North Vietnam; one million killed in longest U.S. war;
atomic bomb threats in l968 and l969.
LAOS
1962
Command operation
Military buildup during guerrilla war.
CUBA
l961
Command operation
CIA-directed exile invasion fails.
GERMANY
l961
Nuclear threat
Alert during Berlin Wall crisis.
CUBA
l962
Nuclear threat, naval
Blockade during missile crisis; near-war with Soviet Union.
PANAMA
l964
Troops
Panamanians shot for urging canal's return.
INDONESIA
l965
Command operation
Million killed in CIA-assisted army coup.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC
1965-66
Troops, bombing
Marines land during election campaign.
GUATEMALA
l966-67
Command operation
Green Berets intervene against rebels.
DETROIT
l967
Troops
Army battles Blacks, 43 killed.
UNITED STATES
l968
Troops
After King is shot; over 21,000 soldiers in cities.
CAMBODIA
l969-75
Bombing, troops, naval
Up to 2 million killed in decade of bombing, starvation, and political chaos.
OMAN
l970
Command operation
U.S. directs Iranian marine invasion.
LAOS
l971-73
Command operation, bombing
U.S. directs South Vietnamese invasion; "carpet-bombs" countryside.
SOUTH DAKOTA
l973
Command operation
Army directs Wounded Knee siege of Lakotas.
MIDEAST
1973
Nuclear threat
World-wide alert during Mideast War.
CHILE
1973
Command operation
CIA-backed coup ousts elected marxist president.
CAMBODIA
l975
Troops, bombing
Gas captured ship, 28 die in copter crash.
ANGOLA
l976-92
Command operation
CIA assists South African-backed rebels.
IRAN
l980
Troops, nuclear threat, aborted
bombing
Raid to rescue Embassy hostages; 8 troops die in copter-plane crash. Soviets warned
not to get involved in revolution.
LIBYA
l981
Naval jets
Two Libyan jets shot down in maneuvers.
EL SALVADOR
l981-92
Command operation, troops
Advisors, overflights aid anti-rebel war, soldiers briefly involved in hostage clash.
NICARAGUA
l981-90
Command operation, naval
CIA directs exile (Contra) invasions, plants harbor mines against revolution.
LEBANON
l982-84
Naval, bombing, troops
Marines expel PLO and back Phalangists, Navy bombs and shells Muslim positions.
GRENADA
l983-84
Troops, bombing
Invasion four years after revolution.
HONDURAS
l983-89
Troops
Maneuvers help build bases near borders.
IRAN
l984
Jets
Two Iranian jets shot down over Persian Gulf.
LIBYA
l986
Bombing, naval
Air strikes to topple nationalist gov't.
BOLIVIA
1986
Troops
Army assists raids on cocaine region.
IRAN
l987-88
Naval, bombing
US intervenes on side of Iraq in war.
LIBYA
1989
Naval jets
Two Libyan jets shot down.
VIRGIN ISLANDS
1989
Troops
St. Croix Black unrest after storm.
PHILIPPINES
1989
Jets
Air cover provided for government against coup.
PANAMA
1989 (-?)
Troops, bombing
Nationalist government ousted by 27,000 soldiers, leaders arrested, 2000+ killed.
LIBERIA
1990
Troops
Foreigners evacuated during civil war.
SAUDI ARABIA
1990-91
Troops, jets
Iraq countered after invading Kuwait. 540,000 troops also stationed in Oman, Qatar,
Bahrain, UAE, Israel.
IRAQ
1990-?
Bombing, troops, naval
Blockade of Iraqi and Jordanian ports, air strikes; 200,000+ killed in invasion of Iraq
and Kuwait; no-fly zone over Kurdish north, Shiite south, large-scale destruction of
Iraqi military.
KUWAIT
1991
Naval, bombing, troops
Kuwait royal family returned to throne.
LOS ANGELES
1992
Troops
Army, Marines deployed against anti-police uprising.
SOMALIA
1992-94
Troops, naval, bombing
U.S.-led United Nations occupation during civil war; raids against one Mogadishu
faction.
YUGOSLAVIA
1992-94
Naval
NATO blockade of Serbia and Montenegro.
BOSNIA
1993-?
Jets, bombing
No-fly zone patrolled in civil war; downed jets, bombed Serbs.
HAITI
1994-?
Troops, naval
Blockade against military government; troops restore President Aristide to office
three years after coup.
ZAIRE (CONGO)
1996-97
Troops
Marines at Rwandan Hutu refugee camps, in area where Congo revolution begins.
LIBERIA
1997
Troops
Soldiers under fire during evacuation of foreigners.
ALBANIA
1997
Troops
Soldiers under fire during evacuation of foreigners.
SUDAN
1998
Missiles
Attack on pharmaceutical plant alleged to be "terrorist" nerve gas plant.
AFGHANISTAN
1998
Missiles
Attack on former CIA training camps used by Islamic fundamentalist groups alleged to
have attacked embassies.
IRAQ
1998-?
Bombing, Missiles
Four days of intensive air strikes after weapons inspectors allege Iraqi obstructions.
YUGOSLAVIA
1999
Bombing, Missiles
Heavy NATO air strikes after Serbia declines to withdraw from Kosovo. NATO
occupation of Kosovo.
YEMEN
2000
Naval
USS Cole bombed.
MACEDONIA
2001
Troops
NATO forces deployed to move and disarm Albanian rebels.
UNITED STATES
2001
Jets, naval
Reaction to hijacker attacks on New York, DC
AFGHANISTAN, IRAQ,
SUDAN
2001
?????
?????
WHERE NEXT?
NO MORE!




Sometimes They Tell the Truth:

"The hidden hand of the market will never work without a hidden fist -- McDonald's cannot flourish without McDonnell-Douglas, the designer of the F-15. And the hidden fist that
keeps the world safe for Silicon Valley's technologies is called the US Army, Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps."

-- Thomas Friedman, "A Manifesto for the Fast World", New York Times Magazine, March 28, 1999



"We have 50 percent of the world's wealth, but only 6.3 percent of its population. . . In this situation we cannot fail to be the object of envy and resentment. Our real task in the
coming period is to devise a pattern of relationships which will allow us to maintain this position of disparity. We should cease to talk about the raising of the living standards,
human rights, and democratization. The day is not far off when we are going to have to deal in straight power concepts. The less we are then hampered by idealistic slogans, the
better."

-- George Kennan, Director of Policy Planning of the U.S. Dept. of State, 1948



"War is just a racket. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small inside group knows what it is about. It is
conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses.

I believe in adequate defense at the coastline and nothing else. If a nation comes over here to fight, then we'll fight. The trouble with America is that when the dollar only earns 6
percent over here, then it gets restless and goes overseas to get 100 percent. Then the flag follows the dollar and the soldiers follow the flag.

I wouldn't go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy investment of the bankers. There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the
other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.

There isn't a trick in the racketeering bag that the military gang is blind to. It has its "finger men" to point out enemies, its "muscle men" to destroy enemies, its "brain men" to
plan war preparations, and a "Big Boss" Super-Nationalistic-Capitalism.

It may seem odd for me, a military man to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent thirty-three years and four months in active military service as a member
of this country's most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of
my time being a high class muscle-man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.

I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My
mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service.

I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect
revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the
international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912 (where have I heard that name before?). I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in
1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.

During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do
was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents."

-- Excerpt from a speech delivered in 1933 by Major General Smedley Butler, USMC



Back Home
to Jay's Leftist and "Progressive" Internet Resources Directory
by Adam
Saturday Apr 13th, 2002 3:51 AM
I am a 50 year old U.S. born citizen. Grew up in a time when most questioned the gov. and have always questioned them. Watched the Rupert tape and read most of the comments. This my first time to comment in a forum. I only have one basic coment on this or the entire world economy. Everyone gains something no matter what social class or where you live. Sure their are different level of gain. But don't kid yourself, if the U.S. economy were to fail the entire world would be in ruins. So yes there may be some evil in every gov. but with the fast paced life we people of the world live (anyone who can reads this, has access or owns a computer, must be in some class above lower) we tend to not see what disturbs us. So if there is any guilt it is with all of you.
by BOND
Saturday Apr 13th, 2002 4:43 AM
This guy Eric doesn't make any sense at all. All he says is hearsay and conjectures and he is asking for evidence.

This is not the proper forum to present any evidence and we do not have to present any to him.

He directs you to this site of pictures and tells you this is evidence. I guess he does not know what evidence is.

He is just here to make to those filthy words which best describe him.
by Moneypenny
Saturday Apr 13th, 2002 8:53 AM
This case is far from solved. Since the government can't and/or wont solve it for us, we are going to have to solve it ourselves. And we're doing that. It's hard, but it's worth it. But let's do it right. let's not leave out any part of the process. It must, among other things, involve questioning the role and motives of those who are working so hard to disrupt our efforts. What is it, exactly, that they get out if it? Are they all just satisfying their own deep seated psychological urges, or are some of them getting paid?
by zooloo
Saturday Apr 13th, 2002 2:56 PM
here, here nessie....... the lies of this corporate-backed bush administration are coming to the light.....

To know what these folk are really like (bush, cheney, etc), just listen to the way they describe others (ie. evil axis)..... this is the basic psychological practice of projection: seeing in others what you dont acknowledge about yourself. But the truth still seeps out. Thats another psychological truism, explored in the branch of psychology called psycho-linguistics, in which it is shown that people give away what they are really thinking and doing in the words and actions they make. These politicians may be professional liars, but they cant stop us from seeing thru that.

Peace and Love, z

by cruz
Saturday Apr 13th, 2002 3:50 PM
thank goodness for the courage of congresswoman cynthia mckinney. i wonder if she will meet w/an untimely accident. or will the country treat this as a joke to keep the bloodhounds off the scent of the blood soaked george bush & his adminstration.
by just wondering
Saturday Apr 13th, 2002 6:53 PM
This message is from Bruce Gagnon. This is his email address. You can
email him and ask to be on his list. He sends us a lot of useful and
interesting information about space weaponization/militarization. See
you.

Richard


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 13:57:11 +0900
From: Global Network Against Weapons & Nuclear Power in Space
<globalnet [at] mindspring.com>
To: Bruce K. Gagnon <globalnet [at] mindspring.com>
Subject: PLAYING GOD - MORE ON SPACE CONTROL OF WEATHER/POPULATIONS

Washington's New World Order Weapons Have the Ability to Trigger
Climate
Change


by Michel Chossudovsky, Professor of Economics, University of Ottawa


Centre for Research on Globalisation (CRG), globalresearch.ca, 4
January
2002


----------------------------------------------------------------------

The important debate on global warming under UN auspices provides but a
partial picture of climate change; in addition to the devastating
impacts of
greenhouse gas emissions on the ozone layer, the World's climate can
now be
modified as part of a new generation of sophisticated "non-lethal
weapons."
Both the Americans and the Russians have developed capabilities to
manipulate the World's climate.

In the US, the technology is being perfected under the High-frequency
Active
Auroral Research Program (HAARP) as part of the ("Star Wars") Strategic
Defence Initiative (SDI). Recent scientific evidence suggests that
HAARP is
fully operational and has the ability of potentially triggering floods,
droughts, hurricanes and earthquakes. From a military standpoint, HAARP
is a
weapon of mass destruction. Potentially, it constitutes an instrument
of
conquest capable of selectively destabilising agricultural and
ecological
systems of entire regions.

While there is no evidence that this deadly technology has been used,
surely
the United Nations should be addressing the issue of "environmental
warfare"
alongside the debate on the climatic impacts of greenhouse gases.

Despite a vast body of scientific knowledge, the issue of deliberate
climatic manipulations for military use has never been explicitly part
of
the UN agenda on climate change. Neither the official delegations nor
the
environmental action groups participating in the Hague Conference on
Climate
Change (CO6) (November 2000) have raised the broad issue of "weather
warfare" or "environmental modification techniques (ENMOD)" as relevant
to
an understanding of climate change.

The clash between official negotiators, environmentalists and American
business lobbies has centered on Washington's outright refusal to abide
by
commitments on carbon dioxide reduction targets under the 1997 Kyoto
protocol.(1) The impacts of military technologies on the World's
climate are
not an object of discussion or concern. Narrowly confined to greenhouse
gases, the ongoing debate on climate change serves Washington's
strategic
and defense objectives.

"WEATHER WARFARE"

World renowned scientist Dr. Rosalie Bertell confirms that "US military
scientists ... are working on weather systems as a potential weapon.
The
methods include the enhancing of storms and the diverting of vapor
rivers in
the Earth's atmosphere to produce targeted droughts or floods." (2)
Already
in the 1970s, former National Security advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski had
foreseen in his book "Between Two Ages" that:

"Technology will make available, to the leaders of major nations,
techniques
for conducting secret warfare, of which only a bare minimum of the
security
forces need be appraised... [T]echniques of weather modification could
be
employed to produce prolonged periods of drought or storm."

Marc Filterman, a former French military officer, outlines several
types of
"unconventional weapons" using radio frequencies. He refers to "weather
war," indicating that the U.S. and the Soviet Union had already
"mastered
the know-how needed to unleash sudden climate changes (hurricanes,
drought)
in the early 1980s."(3) These technologies make it "possible to trigger
atmospheric disturbances by using Extremely Low Frequency (ELF) radar
[waves]." (4)

A simulation study of future defense "scenarios" commissioned for the
US Air
Force calls for:

"US aerospace forces to 'own the weather' by capitalizing on emerging
technologies and focusing development of those technologies to
war-fighting
applications... From enhancing friendly operations or disrupting those
of
the enemy via small-scale tailoring of natural weather patterns to
complete
dominance of global communications and counterspace control,
weather-modification offers the war fighter a wide-range of possible
options
to defeat or coerce an adversary... In the United States,
weather-modification will likely become a part of national security
policy
with both domestic and international applications. Our government will
pursue such a policy, depending on its interests, at various levels.(5)

HIGH-FREQUENCY ACTIVE AURORAL RESEARCH PROGRAM (HAARP)

The High-Frequency Active Auroral Research Program (HAARP) based in
Gokoma
Alaska --jointly managed by the US Air Force and the US Navy-- is part
of a
new generation of sophisticated weaponry under the US Strategic Defense
Initiative (SDI). Operated by the Air Force Research Laboratory's Space
Vehicles Directorate, HAARP constitutes a system of powerful antennas
capable of creating "controlled local modifications of the ionosphere".
Scientist Dr. Nicholas Begich --actively involved in the public
campaign
against HAARP-- describes HAARP as:

"A super-powerful radiowave-beaming technology that lifts areas of the
ionosphere [upper layer of the atmosphere] by focusing a beam and
heating
those areas. Electromagnetic waves then bounce back onto earth and
penetrate
everything -- living and dead." (6)

Dr. Rosalie Bertell depicts HAARP as "a gigantic heater that can cause
major
disruption in the ionosphere, creating not just holes, but long
incisions in
the protective layer that keeps deadly radiation from bombarding the
planet." 7

MISLEADING PUBLIC OPINION

HAARP has been presented to public opinion as a program of scientific
and
academic research. US military documents seem to suggest, however, that
HAARP's main objective is to "exploit the ionosphere for Department of
Defense purposes." (8) Without explicitly referring to the HAARP
program, a
US Air Force study points to the use of "induced ionospheric
modifications"
as a means of altering weather patterns as well as disrupting enemy
communications and radar.9

According to Dr. Rosalie Bertell, HAARP is part of a integrated
weapons'
system, which has potentially devastating environmental consequences:

"It is related to fifty years of intensive and increasingly destructive
programs to understand and control the upper atmosphere. It would be
rash
not to associate HAARP with the space laboratory construction which is
separately being planned by the United States. HAARP is an integral
part of
a long history of space research and development of a deliberate
military
nature. The military implications of combining these projects is
alarming.
... The ability of the HAARP / Spacelab/ rocket combination to deliver
very
large amount of energy, comparable to a nuclear bomb, anywhere on earth
via
laser and particle beams, are frightening. The project is likely to be
"sold" to the public as a space shield against incoming weapons, or,
for the
more gullible, a device for repairing the ozone layer. (10)

In addition to weather manipulation, HAARP has a number of related
uses:

"HAARP could contribute to climate change by intensively bombarding the
atmosphere with high-frequency rays... Returning low-frequency waves at
high
intensity could also affect people's brains, and effects on tectonic
movements cannot be ruled out. (11)

More generally, HAARP has the ability of modifying the World's
electro-magnetic field. It is part of an arsenal of "electronic
weapons"
which US military researchers consider a "gentler and kinder warfare".
(12)

WEAPONS OF THE NEW WORLD ORDER

HAARP is part of the weapons arsenal of the New World Order under the
Strategic Defense Initiative (SDI). From military command points in the
US,
entire national economies could potentially be destabilized through
climatic
manipulations. More importantly, the latter can be implemented without
the
knowledge of the enemy, at minimal cost and without engaging military
personnel and equipment as in a conventional war.

The use of HAARP -- if it were to be applied -- could have potentially
devastating impacts on the World's climate. Responding to US economic
and
strategic interests, it could be used to selectively modify climate in
different parts of the World resulting in the destabilization of
agricultural and ecological systems.

It is also worth noting that the US Department of Defense has allocated
substantial resources to the development of intelligence and monitoring
systems on weather changes. NASA and the Department of Defense's
National
Imagery and Mapping Agency (NIMA) are working on "imagery for studies
of
flooding, erosion, land-slide hazards, earthquakes, ecological zones,
weather forecasts, and climate change" with data relayed from
satellites.
(13)

POLICY INERTIA OF THE UNITED NATIONS

According to the Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC) signed
at
the 1992 Earth Summit in Rio de Janeiro:

"States have... in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations
and the
principles of international law, the (...) responsibility to ensure
that
activities within their jurisdiction or control do not cause damage to
the
environment of other States or of areas beyond the limits of national
jurisdiction." (14)

It is also worth recalling that an international Convention ratified by
the
UN General Assembly in 1997 bans "military or other hostile use of
environmental modification techniques having widespread, long-lasting
or
severe effects." (15) Both the US and the Soviet Union were signatories
to
the Convention. The Convention defines "'environmental modification
techniques' as referring to any technique for changing--through the
deliberate manipulation of natural processes--the dynamics, composition
or
structure of the earth, including its biota, lithosphere, hydrosphere
and
atmosphere or of outer space." (16)

Why then did the UN --disregarding the 1977 ENMOD Convention as well as
its
own charter-- decide to exclude from its agenda climatic changes
resulting
from military programs?

EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT ACKNOWLEDGES IMPACTS OF HAARP

In February 1998, responding to a report of Mrs. Maj Britt Theorin
--Swedish
MEP and longtime peace advocate--, the European Parliament's Committee
on
Foreign Affairs, Security and Defense Policy held public hearings in
Brussels on the HAARP program.(17) The Committee's "Motion for
Resolution"
submitted to the European Parliament:

"Considers HAARP... by virtue of its far-reaching impact on the
environment
to be a global concern and calls for its legal, ecological and ethical
implications to be examined by an international independent body...;
[the
Committee] regrets the repeated refusal of the United States
Administration... to give evidence to the public hearing ...into the
environmental and public risks [of] the HAARP program." (18).

The Committee's request to draw up a "Green Paper" on "the
environmental
impacts of military activities", however, was casually dismissed on the
grounds that the European Commission lacks the required jurisdiction to
delve into "the links between environment and defense". (19) Brussels
was
anxious to avoid a showdown with Washington.

FULLY OPERATIONAL

While there is no concrete evidence of HAARP having been used,
scientific
findings suggest that it is at present fully operational. What this
means is
that HAARP could potentially be applied by the US military to
selectively
modify the climate of an "unfriendly nation" or "rogue state" with a
view to
destabilizing its national economy.

Agricultural systems in both developed and developing countries are
already
in crisis as a result of New World Order policies including market
deregulation, commodity dumping, etc. Amply documented, IMF and World
Bank
"economic medicine" imposed on the Third World and the countries of the
former Soviet block has largely contributed to the destabilization of
domestic agriculture. In turn, the provisions of the World Trade
Organization (WTO) have supported the interests of a handful of Western
agri-biotech conglomerates in their quest to impose genetically
modified
(GMO) seeds on farmers throughout the World.

It is important to understand the linkage between the economic,
strategic
and military processes of the New World Order. In the above context,
climatic manipulations under the HAARP program (whether accidental or
deliberate) would inevitably exacerbate these changes by weakening
national
economies, destroying infrastructure and potentially triggering the
bankruptcy of farmers over vast areas. Surely national governments and
the
United Nations should address the possible consequences of HAARP and
other
"non-lethal weapons" on climate change.


NOTES

1. The latter calls for nations to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by
an
average of 5.2 percent to become effective between 2008 and 2012. See
Background of Kyoto Protocol at http://www.globalwarming.net/gw11.html
.

2. The Times, London, 23 November 2000.

3. Intelligence Newsletter, December 16, 1999.

4. Ibid.

5 Air University of the US Air Force, AF 2025 Final Report,
http://www.au.af.mil/au/2025/ (emphasis added).

6 Nicholas Begich and Jeane Manning, The Military's Pandora's Box,
Earthpulse Press, http://www.xyz.net/~nohaarp/earthlight.html . See
also the
HAARP home page at http://www.haarp.alaska.edu/

7. See Briarpatch, January, 2000. (emphasis added).

8 Quoted in Begich and Manning, op cit.

9. Air University, op cit.

10. Rosalie Bertell, Background of the HAARP Program, 5 November, 1996,
http://www.globalpolicy.org/socecon/envronmt/weapons.htm

11. Begich and Manning, op cit.

12. Don Herskovitz, Killing Them Softly, Journal of Electronic Defense,
August 1993. (emphasis added). According to Herskovitz, "electronic
warfare"
is defined by the US Department of Defense as "military action
involving the
use of electromagnetic energy..." The Journal of Electronic Defense at
http://www.jedefense.com/ has published a range of articles on the
application of electronic and electromagnetic military technologies.

13. Military Space, 6 December, 1999.

14. UN Framework Convention on Climate Change, New York, 1992. See
complete
text at http://www.unfccc.de/resource/conv/conv_002.html , (emphasis
added).

15. See Associated Press, 18 May 1977.

16. Environmental Modification Ban Faithfully Observed, States Parties
Declare, UN Chronicle, July, 1984, Vol. 21, p. 27.

17. European Report, 7 February 1998.

18. European Parliament, Committee on Foreign Affairs, Security and
Defense
Policy, Brussels, doc. no. A4-0005/99, 14 January 1999.

19. EU Lacks Jurisdiction to Trace Links Between Environment and
Defense,
European Report, 3 February 1999.


Copyright by Michel Chossudovsky, CRG 2002. All rights reserved.
Permission
is granted to post this text on non-commercial community internet
sites,
provided the essay remains intact and the copyright note is displayed.
To
publish this text in printed and/or other forms contact the CRG at
editor [at] globalresearch.ca .


The URL of this article is:
http://globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO201A.html



Global Network Against Weapons & Nuclear Power in Space
PO Box 90083
Gainesville, FL. 32607
(352) 337-9274
http://www.space4peace.org
globalnet [at] mindspring.com
by Ankh Pentrip
( ulysses [at] derailedgears.kom ) Saturday Apr 13th, 2002 7:53 PM
I think Congress should hire Inspector Clouseau to
Investigate 9-11

pinkr.gif"
by Issaq
Saturday Apr 13th, 2002 11:10 PM
http://www.africa2000.com/PNDX/theory.htm
"Another way in which propaganda can turn around an unwilling audience is through the process of repetition." ...

So, for how long do the people of the world have to pay for what their forefathers did to the jews? Holocaust keeps getting popped up on the news.

How long will the president of USA keep repeating that the war is not to bring OBL to justice; it is to exterminate terrorism.

History is written by the strong and powerful at the time. So USA will make history in this century. But a great lesson to be learned from history, also, is that it cycles power. Not only that, but every rising power brutally kills the former. The cycle will continue whether we like it or not. Resist it, or submit to it. Since history is written by the strong, the rising power is always the most righteous.
In this cycle of power, I want to be a person who does not engage in any mass murders, nor plots against other nations of the world just to keep my social status, prosperity, and protect myself ego. This is because I firmly believe that if I got it and others lack it, there is a problem in equality which we all call for. Please do not pick this last statement out of context, equality means the fair and equal opportunity for all to reach the same level of accomplishments. That state is what I would call a heavenly guided state.
by Issaq
Saturday Apr 13th, 2002 11:10 PM
http://www.africa2000.com/PNDX/theory.htm
"Another way in which propaganda can turn around an unwilling audience is through the process of repetition." ...

So, for how long do the people of the world have to pay for what their forefathers did to the jews? Holocaust keeps getting popped up on the news.

How long will the president of USA keep repeating that the war is not to bring OBL to justice; it is to exterminate terrorism.

History is written by the strong and powerful at the time. So USA will make history in this century. But a great lesson to be learned from history, also, is that it cycles power. Not only that, but every rising power brutally kills the former. The cycle will continue whether we like it or not. Resist it, or submit to it. Since history is written by the strong, the rising power is always the most righteous.
In this cycle of power, I want to be a person who does not engage in any mass murders, nor plots against other nations of the world just to keep my social status, prosperity, and protect myself ego. This is because I firmly believe that if I got it and others lack it, there is a problem in equality which we all call for. Please do not pick this last statement out of context, equality means the fair and equal opportunity for all to reach the same level of accomplishments. That state is what I would call a heavenly guided state.
by Eric
Monday Apr 15th, 2002 6:45 AM
to listen to me whine.
About nothing and
everything all at once?

No, we don't need to present any viable evidence to support our claims. Let's just say the government is lying. The Bush administration (at a minimum) had advanced warning, if he didn't carry out the terrorism himself. We don't need any proof. We can just speculate. Conjecture and hearsay is all we need. Nothing more than to point the finger and blame the government is needed. They didn't need proof to burn witches in Salem, neither do we. They wanna control us. They wanna manipulate us. We are the sheep. They're profiteering and getting rich on our misery. They, them who are not us. It's not our fault and we accept no responsibility. He's not my elected leader. I didn't vote for him. That election was stolen. I don't care about the democratic congress. It's the corporations that run the show. The support polls are lies whine created by corporate whine America as propoganda whine whine to control whine thinking whine The jews whine whine whine palestine whine whine Arafat whine whine whine whine controlled media whine whine whine whine conspiracy whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine whine.....................................
by kim
Monday Apr 15th, 2002 2:29 PM
some say "Again, where is the evidence? If you want us to believe that the official version is true, then prove it. It would be more than the government has done. Where's your proof?"

The burden of proof is not upon the gov't. The "official gov't version" is out. It is up to those who DON'T believe it to prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt. You can either prove it wrong, or you can't. But, the burden IS squarely upon you, not on those who believe the "gov't account". Either accept the challenge or don't. If you do prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt, the American people will accept it. That will be your evidence. Anything less than that and you have proven nothing.

by history buff
Monday Apr 15th, 2002 3:04 PM
The government has long since relinquished its ability to make unsubstantiated claims and have them accepted without question. After Watergate, the Tongkin Gulf Resolution, the Tongson Park Affair, the October Surprise, Iran-contra, CIA drug dealing, and the 2000 election (to cite but a few), anybody who still takes the government at its word has clearly failed to learn the lessons of history. Wake up, people. There's a pattern here.
by flow
Tuesday Apr 16th, 2002 5:34 PM
that latest video transmission.

that scarf-wearing, big ring & rolex touting, page reading Saudi at the end is the most fake terrorist I've ever seen.

I think the CIA and the Saudi's have been scamming us with that Arab terrorism. pure psyops.

makes you wonder about Bin Laden himself. we may be tricked up to a level unimagined. I think he's an integral part of his business-minded family, not a rejected son. unless you're gay, you don't ever really get rejected in that culture.

oh, by the way, Eric, stay off this board. we're not responding to you anyway. tell your contractors we're on to you.

you're a sell out.
by Gerry
Tuesday Apr 16th, 2002 7:01 PM
Howdy there Eric, and thanks for the posting. I'll deal with each point as you raised it.

-------------"Well Gerry, I'd hate to take your money, but you'd lose that bet. I was always an honor student with perfect attendance for 9 years straight...."

Well, I'm very glad to hear that Eric, because it wasn't immediately obvious from your previous postings. On the basis of your student record, you should therefore be capable of rational thought. I'll get into this later ....

-------------"So with your second assumption about me (first being that I am CIA), again you are wrong. Didn't anyone ever tell you not to ASSUME? You make an ASS out of U and not ME when you do that."

Just drawing you out, ol' buddy... I make the suggestions and see how you respond to them....

--------------"I also love how you compared me with Davey Crockett and the Alamo! I agree, the analogy can be made to my presence here, however I don't nearly deserve the compliment!"

Now don't let your ego get the better of you here Eric - I only said that you must be feeling like Davie Crockett, not that you were like Davy Crockett.

That being said, I know that you, like most of the rest of us, are feeling outraged by the enormity of the 9-11 attacks, and our first instinct will be for vengeance. Certain sectors of the Government know this, and are directing us to their target of choice - Afghanistan, (Osama Bin Laden being a secondary consideration) and in our anger we go right along with it.

In the meantime, because we are blinded by our anger, we miss the most obvious,
which is what Mike Ruppert is attempting to point out. The writer Hermann Hesse had an excellent take on this: -

"The more individuals capable of watching the world theatre calmly and critically, the less danger of monumental mass stupidities - first of all, wars."

Getting back to your posting,

----------"As far as the request that I join you all, well the movie "Star Wars" comes to mind. Remember the epic light sabre battle between Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker? "Luke, I am your father...Join me." Isn't that always like the evil side? I mean in the movies, a good guy comes along and the bad guy wants him to join "the dark side"......"

Speaking for myself, I'm not asking you to join anything - only that you don't join the Government/Media orchestrated rush to judgement on the events of 9-11 and who they claim is responsible for it. You may well end up hanging innocent people.

And while on the subject of "Star Wars" - have you ever considered that as part of a Psyops project? Think about it.

---------"Why is that? I think it has to do with it being easier to do bad rather than good. Being bad is human nature. Since the caveman days it's always been about survival. If Joe caveman had a slab of tyrannasourus meat and you didn't, you'd go club him over the head and take it. Not a nice thing to do, but do you think Joe had any intentions of sharing? Probably not...."

My belief is that we are here to evolve, not just to survive. Back in the caveman days, that began to happen when someone figured it was better to go out and catch your own dinosaur rather than kill someone else for theirs, thus avoiding tribal warfare, and the killing of members of your own family, and maybe even yourself.

----------"Anyway, I'd like to think I'm already joined with you. You need me. You need people like me. Your antithesis, so to speak. Just like hot and cold, salt and pepper, good and evil. Without one, the other has no purpose. So we're already describably linked."

You're really not that different from any of the rest of us. You're just pointed in a different direction!

-----------"But I don't think they way many of you do. I prefer peace to drama. I like a quiet existence."

If this is really so Eric, then you really are no different to the rest of us. All we are doing here is trying determine who is really disturbing the peace, because the official explanations just do not hold up to scrutiny. At one point, 51% of respondents to the Atlanta Journal Constitution poll (about 12,500 people) believe the Government had prior knowledge of the 9-11 attacks. The paper then removed the poll.

-----------"I can't create conspiracy from unsubstantiated conjecture."

No one is asking you to do so. Other postings here (including my own) have raised quite substantial points, which you have chosen to ignore. You're in denial ol' buddy!

-----------"I live in reality, not some fantasy land."

Sorry to burst your bubble Eric, but when we have most of the world's resources at our disposal and 90+% of the world's population is on the verge of starvation, it is definitely the Western group of nations who are living in a fantasy. If we gave one penny out of every dollar spent on armaments to feeding the world, there would be no one who is hungry. But it seems we'd rather kill them than feed them. So much for the Nobility of Mankind. I don't know where this one came from, but it's true:
"Civilization is a Conspiracy against Reality"


-----------"I know that government is a necessity for a civilized culture, and since we have to have it, it may as well be one that allows me to eat, to own land, to own property, to own a business, to live substantially and in peace so I can think about other things besides what my government is doing, to protect my interests and my family, and one that doesn't take shit off of all these wanna be governments. The proof is in the pudding. My life is content. My family is content. My friends are content. To revolt against comfort is ridiculous."

Eric, you’ve taken Hedonism to new levels!

Yes, a government is a necessity, but because of the way our particular form of government has been set up, we do not have the luxury of just sitting back and letting them go to it.
As Lord Acton said, "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

The Founding Fathers were quite aware of this when they put the Constitution together, and having seen the rampant corruption and abuse of power in Europe, they determined to put in safeguards to prevent it from happening here. The current Administration is in the process of destroying these safeguards.

Therefore, if you are a true citizen and patriot, you will channel your energy and anger into holding the Government's feet to the fire on this one. Irrespective of who you believe to be responsible for 9-11, an official investigation needs to be opened. We owe it to the thousands of 9-11 victims and their families. Anything less makes us complicit in their murders.

In closing here's another timely quote from Hermann Hesse: -

"I have often seen a room full of people, a city full of people, a country full of people seized with an intoxication and frenzy in which many individuals become a unit, a homogeneous mass, and all individuality is extinguished. In a surge of unanimity, all individual impulses merge into a single mass impulse and hundreds, thousands, or millions are seized with a rapture, a selfless devotion and heroism, which express themselves at first in outcries, tears, and touching declarations of brotherhood and end in war, madness, and rivers of blood.

My instinct as an individualist and artist has always warned me most urgently against this capacity of men for becoming drunk on collective suffering, collective pride, collective hatred, and collective honor. When this morbid exaltation becomes perceptible in a room, a hall, a village, a city, or a country, I grow cold and distrustful; a shudder comes over me, for already, while most of my fellow men are still weeping with rapture and enthusiasm, still cheering and venting protestations of brotherhood, I see blood flowing and cities going up in flames."

Hermann Hesse knew very well about events happening today. He was living in Germany when the Reichstag was burned and Hitler assumed absolute power (financially assisted by George W. Bush's Grandfather, Prescott Bush....) and whose writings were subsequently banned by the Nazis. He died in the USA in 1961.

We are your fellow citizens talking to you Eric. Are you for us or against us?

Ten Four, Good Buddy!

Gerry
by Kenyon Gibson
Wednesday Apr 17th, 2002 2:43 AM
Eric-
Patriotism demand you follow common sense-
take orders- if thy're lawful orders.
Who is generating wealth and fame but Bush,
DuPont, Cheney, and others who are probably
now worth more than the rest of their fellow
Americans combined?
As to there being no evidence of a conspiracy, did you
read the 21 April article by Carol A. Valentine?
And what about Buzzy Krongard?
And Mike Vreeland's testimony?
Your desire for there to be a lawful, respectable
government in Washington is a healthy attitude
Eric, and you actually have a right to that, but this
world is not run by you or even honour roll students,
it has a lot of the dishounorable. Id we don;t
take action, then we get napalmed.
Or bombed in Cambodia, or bombed in...

Kenyon
P.S. You don't have to buy a hemp book, just go to
http://www.hancockhouse.com to read about the DuPonts.
Interestingly enough, a lot of the positive material in this book is US government materail- I have reprinted
an article by President John Quincy Adams.
Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln and other presidents
were hemp exponents. The current laws against hemp are against the founding fathers.
by 1in6billion
Wednesday Apr 17th, 2002 8:55 AM
First of all,can you people please put disrupter Eric on ignore.Or better yet,delete what he already said(thats for site manager) as his posts are cluttering space for intelegent discussion,which readers might never get to due to Eric's larding all the space.He repeats himself OVER AND OVER again and ignores every anwser people have given him,he sounds like a prejudiced Xerox machine spitting out carbon copys of recycled verbage(spelled garbage).He adds nothing to the conversation.Its fine to engage in a dialogue and not agree with everything(or disagree with everything) but has proven to think reapeating himself(you are all wackos..bla bla bla,so says me the intellegent Eric) EVERY STINKING POST,and just when I get done reading good informative posts from others and feel stimulated to think and discuss,Eric comes along again and unloads his oft repeated(and highly stale ALREADY) disruptions and.............uh nevermeind...lets just all agree to ignore him and drop it..NOTHING he says will be worth even 2 cents,which means he sounds sub human..like a programed computer designed to say the same things only with slight word variations.Lets IGNORE ERIC starting NOW.

As for this discussion,there is so much covered,I find it all fascinating.I dont know what to add.All I can say is that 35,000 people starve to death every day in this world,and it takes what...$1 a day to feed a person and prevent him from starving.Do the math,it comes to about $12 million in food.In terms of budgetary concerns,quite small compared to our latest $50 billion "defence" increase and the $100 billion in overseas bases designed to "protect" Europe from some unknown enemy.

It is obvious that when our nation has such a (imposed) world presence, that to let people starve to death is a deliberate intention.Why are people in such bad shape worldwide to begin with(yes,you have to look beyond Western Europe and the USA to see the world)?Simple.The rich and powerful run the risk of massive inflation if they allow the rest of the world to economicaly evolve and prosper,might run out of people being forced to work for slave wages,and workers might demand adaqate pay for their work.

Greed is the short anwser and like a virus or cancer it has spread itself into every corner of its host and is fabricated into all our institutions of higher power.Its up to us(mainly in the United Satates for obvious reasons) to care enough for our neighbor(who was that person who said that the greatest commandment of all is,in addition to one other thing,to love your neighbor as yourself? I sure like myself enough to not let myself starve,why not care for the brother who is starving?) that we try to get to the bottom of things.

I thank all of you here who are doing just that.You,like me, take it personnaly when somebody else is suffering,and seem to be as passonate as if the wrongdoing was commited on your own self or own flesh and blood child,though you are living "fat and happy" in your own house probabilly.

Thank you!
by human
Wednesday Apr 17th, 2002 10:03 AM
Hey, I appreciate your posts, Eric. If we are to find out how to be civilized we need to know the perspective of those who think we are already civilized. Keep on pluggin' away man! Oh, BTW, the US is not real, The Constitution of No Authority.
by Alford
Wednesday Apr 17th, 2002 11:00 AM
I have a astronomy program. I was checking out the position of Sirius on a couple of key dates in key locations.

Jan 1 at midnight over the Giza plateau where the Great Prymaid is Egypt, Sirrius is directly overhead.
July 4 at noon over the Giza plateau, Sirius is directly overhead behind the sun. (Founding fathers knew this?) Check the back of the US one-dollar bill (The Great Seal of The United States was developed in the late 1700's)
Dec 25 at midnight over Jersulam (or Bethelem or Temple Mount). Sirius is directly overhead.

According the Funk and Wagnell encycolpedia, they are not sure why Christmas falls on Dec 25, think it might have something to do with the winter solace

I am not aware of any Christian signifigance of the star Sirius
Sirus does however have great signifigance in Egyptian mythology.

How does this relate to the events on September 11?

There is an article in time magazine in which Bush admits to belonging to the secret society Skull & Bones.

http://www.time.com/time/campaign2000/story/textframe_bushinterview1.html

The question is who does Bush answer to first? the american public or his cronies in the secet society
by Alford
Wednesday Apr 17th, 2002 2:06 PM
I have a astronomy program. I was checking out the position of Sirius on a couple of key dates in key locations.

Jan 1 at midnight over the Giza plateau where the Great Prymaid is Egypt, Sirrius is directly overhead.
July 4 at noon over the Giza plateau, Sirius is directly overhead behind the sun. (Founding fathers knew this?) Check the back of the US one-dollar bill (The Great Seal of The United States was developed in the late 1700's)
Dec 25 at midnight over Jersulam (or Bethelem or Temple Mount). Sirius is directly overhead. (Coincidence?)

Nobody really knows for sure, when Christ was born on Dec 25, According the Funk and Wagnell encycolpedia, they are not sure why Christmas falls on Dec 25, they think it might have something to do with the winter solace.

I am not aware of any Christian signifigance of the star Sirius
Sirus does however have great signifigance in Egyptian mythology.

How does this relate to the events on September 11?

There is an article in time magazine in which Bush admits to belonging to the secret society Skull & Bones.

http://www.time.com/time/campaign2000/story/textframe_bushinterview1.html

The question is who does Bush answer to first? the american public or his cronies in the secet society

Is there a connection between secret societies and Egyptian mythology? Secret society propaganda claims they know about the ancient mysteries. That they are defenders of the truth (sic). That means by definition, we (the uninitaited) are living a lie.

The ancient mysteries are really the ancient Egyptian
mysteries. Norman de Clifford (a freemason writer from the 1800s) claims that Ancient Egypt is cradle of all religion and source of the ancient mysteries.

Who can be traced to ancient Egypt? Moses (religion), the ancient Greeks that start with the Letter P such as Plato (knowledge) and the roman emporer Cesaer (calendar) . After visting Eygpt (Cleopatia), Cesear initiated a new calendar, in fact it is the calendar we use today. Did Ceasear learn the Egyptian mysteries? Does that have anything to do Sirius being over key places on key dates today? Sirius was important to the Ancient Egyptians.

Another thing Ceaser started was the building of the Temple of Jupiter on what was already ancient site., the largest temple the romans ever built and is located in Baalbek Lebanon (Outside of Rome!!!). (This is a side issue)

Before we get back to Sept 11, we have to understand about what happened at Camp David a year earlier.
The Isrealis and Palestinians could not agree on a peace plan. The mainstream media indicates that the
Palestinians rejected it, without explaining why, other than the Palestinians don't want peace. Rubbish!

Obviously, there was a contentious issue that they could not agree to. What is the most contenious piece of real estate on the planet? The Temple Mount/Dome of the Rock mosque in Jersulam. The Isrealis offered the Palestinians above ground portionf the Rock) and the Isrealis would get the underground portion. This was rejected because of the Muslim implications. Now it makes you wonder, what is so important underground.

First off, it can't be oil, Some might say, it's the Ark of the Covenant, others might say unknown ancient artifacts from ancient peoples (ancient mysteries?)

Back to Sep 11, so what really happened that day?
What is the agenda? and by whom?
What is the prize? Oil and/or the Temple Mount.
Is there a secret war going on, that most us don't know about?


Stay Tuned
by drone
Wednesday Apr 17th, 2002 5:01 PM
**WARNING**: THIS SITE IS NOW UNDER SURVEILLANCE FROM PAID GOV'T AGENTS. THESE AGENTS WILL PROVOKE READERS WITH INFLAMATORY REMARKS INTENDED TO REDUCE THE ENTIRE TRAIN OF COMMENTARY AND DEBATE TO ARGUMENT AND VITUPERATION. THIS IN TURN WILL DISCREDIT THIS WEBSITE AND ALL PARTICIPANTS IN THE EYES OF FUTURE POTENTIAL INQUIRERS. WE HAVE AGENTS ASSIGNED TO 'ROLE-PLAY' BOTH 'SIDES' OF THIS DEBATE TO INSURE SUCCESS. THIS IS STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURE. THIS IS 'DAMAGE CONTROL', OVER AND OUT.
by easy solution
Wednesday Apr 17th, 2002 6:15 PM
Split the newswire in two. On the front page put a "best of" edited by the sf-imc editorial collective. On a second page, one click away, put the newswire we have now, moderated only to the extent that porn and spam are hidden. Use the "best of" on the front page to repost the very best articles from the second page, but without permission to post. Those who want to post can go to the second page.

That way, people who come here for news wont have to wade through crap to get it. It will be right there on the front page.
by Joseph Green
( indybay [at] hooler.com ) Wednesday Apr 17th, 2002 9:18 PM

nysmall2.jpg"

On behalf of the Canadian people, we support any war that is against terror in any form it may take. Be it against Americans, Palestinians, Rwandans or anyone. If what you say has merit, then we as a nation must re-consider our position. Our nations most precious resource, our sons and daughters of Canada, must not be simply thrown into a very dangerous situation unless our national security is jeopardized. Thank you.
by Eric
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 6:52 AM
Ok, this has obviously gotten out of hand. It's become more about personal attacks against me than anything else. It's not that I mind; I feel good that I was able to inspire so many to post. And I'm certainly not backing down or changing the way I feel. I stand by everything I've said. Obviously, I have opinions about Ruppert, people like him, and those that prescribe to similar campaigns. My appologies for not being quiet about them.

And if I offended you with anything I might have written, accept my appologies. I certainly am not here to offend you. Nothing I've written should be taken personally. I don't know any of you. All I know is the words I see on the screen, and while I may have attacked those words, I hope the individuals that wrote them have a thick enough skin to realize that it's not personal. It's quite probable that we have some common ground (somewhere).

And as far as the accusations that I'm CIA, FBI, or some government disinformation agent, that's total BS. I'm just an average American citizen and proud of it. I know that pisses a lot of you off, that I'm proud being American, so let me appologize for that too. By dumb luck I was born into the good life. Sorry. Do you feel better now? I doubt it, but that's the best I can do for you. I'm certainly not going to tear up and beg forgiveness. But if you still think I'm some evil doer here to sabotage your messages of conspiracy well, maybe indirectly I am. Sometimes you can think things into reality, at least from your own perspective. But I don't get paid to post my opinions. And from my perspective, I'm just the opposing, logical argument. Any there can be no disruption unless you allow it. By engaging in debate with me, you only encourage me more. So it's (partly) your fault if my ramblings have distracted you or made you angry. Right?

And if you still don't believe me then I'll be glad to sit down with you over a cup of coffee and discuss it. I assure you that I'm quite rational and open-minded. I'll listen to you opine and you can find out that I am who I say I am, and nothing more. Hopefully you'll sleep better at night, knowing that the CIA is not casing IndyMedia. Or at least, that bastard Eric is not CIA. Any takers?

Now I'm not saying that I'm going away. This forum is way too entertaining. I may tone it down a bit, but I'm gonna hang out a bit longer. At least until I lose interest.

And on that note, well, have a nice day!
by flow
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 11:47 AM
we'll ignore you anyway.
by Eric
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 12:18 PM
Oh you poor little thing!! Please don't pout! Guess I must have "hit a nerve" somewhere along the line. Do you want daddy to make it all better? Dew ew want dah-dah to kiss da boo-boo? Dah-dah gonna make it all better. Smmmmmoooooooch!
by travis
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 12:47 PM
eric i will temporarily drop to your level.
you are a retarded,cocksmoking,waste of skin that perpetuates the "fat,dumb american" label that is stamped on all americans across the globe.I have travelled extensively throughout the world and have come across nothing but hatred and contempt for "yankees". As a Canadian I was absolutely disgusted by 9-11 and feel very bad for all the people that were effected by it,but let me tell you it came as no surprise.The U.S has been acting on a unilateral path for far too long and resentment is ballooning across the planet.Living in a Canadian tourist town I,ve met more than my share of ERICs that have nothing much to say except "our military kicks ass" "we rule" "our dollar is stronger so me must better" and dozens of other snipets that flow like sewage 24-7.The fact is if your country keeps on it's current track you will fall much like every other dynasty in mankinds history.How the fuck can the self-professed Free-est country in the world, lock someone away for growing a pot plant in the privacy of their own home.The War on Drugs is a classic example of the ridiculous society you try and thrust upon the rest of the world.There is nothing wrong with capitolism unless it is corrupted to the point of our current situation which I feel is almost a New World Order/Capitolist Dictatorship type system.
Politicians have become nothing but puppets for huge multi-national which are the real terrorists on this planet.When 95% of the worlds population realizes that their nothing but fodder for the global pimping that is taking place their will be hell to pay.
I have taken the time to read every single entry on this forum and am so thankeful that there are many intelligent americans that dont believe the " HYPE"
I pray for the war mongering to end and the U.S to really get away from special interest's running the show.The battle for good and evil will be won / lost eventually,does America want to blaze the way to a truly democratic,free and happy planet or will greed take us down a path of war,starvation,disease and whatever else we deserve.Thank god for the people who dont swallow the jizz from the puppeteers and continue to ask the tough questions.
As far as ERIC goes,he is exactly the type of idiot that Washington and people like Rupert Murdoch love.keep swallowing Eric
by jhakjf
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 1:23 PM
No doubt, many of you have noted that Stanford University had apparently decided not to hire Ron Brown as its football coach because Brown is a devout Christian. Now San Francisco Chronicle columnist Mark Simon argues that Stanford is doing the right thing:

"It's quite likely there's an atheist or two on the football team and quite probably a few homosexuals.

All of which might be good enough reason not to hire a football coach who wants to use his cap and whistle to further his own Christian goals, which include "winning" homosexuals to Christ. . . .

Stanford is diverse and liberal in the philosophical sense, rather than the political.

Diversity means diversity of thought. An essential element of a Stanford education, it would seem, is exposure to a broad range of thinking, lifestyles and beliefs--a purposeful challenge to the way of thinking you brought there with you.

"One thing I've tried not to do," Brown said in an interview with a Nebraska media outlet, "is separate my coaching from who I am. Some people have a problem with that. They want to separate my coaching from my faith in Christ. I can't do that. That would be a huge hypocrisy. You have to be who you are."

No one is suggesting Brown should be anything less than who he is. But it would seem Stanford is perfectly justified in rejecting Brown for who he is, since that's the criteria he proposes."

This article perfectly encapsulates the blinkered nature of contemporary liberalism, such as is often stated here in Indymedia (especially noted in this string directed at Eric). Simon praises "diversity of thought" and "exposure to a broad range of lifestyles"--all by way of arguing that Stanford students ought to be protected from Brown's thoughts and lifestyle.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/04/18/BA3759.DTL
by Eric
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 1:54 PM
Gee Travis, pretty harsh buddy! Perhaps you should try decaf. You know, they make decaf now-a-days that tastes just like the real thing. Or maybe you're one of those stoners that gets mean when he's been smokin'? Lay off that stuff man, it kills brain cells.

You really hate Americans, don't ya! It's a fiery hatred I see. Hmmm ok. Thanks for sharing! I won't even get into how insignificant a Canadian opinion is since that might just make you angrier.

You guys ever notice how politics and world government is like talking sports? Sports fans are passionate and aggressive. I guess America is like the team everone loves to hate. Like the Dallas Cowboys or the Atlanta Braves. They can't beat 'em and they can't join 'em, so they talk smack about 'em. Oh well, it sure makes for some interesting diatribes!
by Gerry
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 2:11 PM
Ok Eric .... I for one will give you the benefit of the doubt with regard to whether or not you work for the Intel Establishment. (though my Uncle Murray still has his doubts!)

The question I put to you - Do you think there should be an investigation of the events of 9-11?

We do it for train wrecks and many other such incidents, and as three thousand people were killed, why is the Adminstration so opposed to it? We only have their word for it that Bin Laden was responsible, along with a video of dubious origin (the guy doesn't even look like Bin Laden...) and the say so of Tony Blair, who likewise didn't produce any evidence after promising to do it.

Wouldn't the President gain more credibility if it was actually proven that Bin Laden and Al Qaeda were the culprits?

Something you touched on in a previous posting - that what is going on is ultimately designed to bring down the US and make it subservient to the NWO - certainly has merit.

This is why it is essential to proceed through normal legal channels on this and not resort to an armed uprising. If that ever happens, the President will invoke Article 51 of the NATO pact and we'll be seeing all kinds of foreign troops on the streets "maintaining order".

Ten Four Good Buddy!
Gerry
by Eric
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 3:37 PM
>The question I put to you - Do you think there should be an investigation of the events of 9-11?

Was there an investigation for Pearl Harbor? How about the Battle of Gettysburg? Did anyone investigate the assasination of Arche Duke Ferdinand?

There has been few comparable tragedies in American history. This is a wee-bit different than a train wreck. Acts of war are typically not investigated immediately after they are committed, but let's look at this deeper.

Who would perform the investigation? You? Me? I certainly don't trust you to do it, and I feel sure you don't trust me. We could spend years debating and selecting an agreeable investigation team huh? In the mean time what should we do? Nothing? Sit on our hands?

And of course, what about the evidence? What is real? What is manufactured? If the team came back and said "Yep, bin Laden did it" would that satisfy you? I mean, I submit that if bin Laden himself came up to many of these people here and said "Yep, I did it" there would still be people that wouldn't believe it. Hell, that's practically the case now. There are tapes of him bragging about it and basically admitting it but you still have doubts. Perhaps he is an imposter contracted by the government?!

The answer is, yes I think it should be investigated. By the Historians. Time will tell as it does and always has. Sometimes sooner, sometimes later.

As I've stated and restated in this forum, I'm not saying don't ask questions and take everything the government says at face value. On the contratry! Ask questions. But be prepared with realistic, verifiable and factual answers to present. Otherwise you look like a fool conspiracy theorist.

And as far as foreign nationals occupying American soil (to keep the peace or otherwise, by order of the President or otherwise) I doubt I would live to see the day. See, everyone I know owns a gun. Personally I have 3. Most Americans would know the difference between doing your duty by being a law abiding citizen and having to submit to fascism. Not gonna happen. See, some of us still remember what Patrick Henry said. Some of us know that freedom is more valuable than life. Some of us know what it means to be American. So when it happens, you can say, "I told you so." Until then, it's hypothetical and means about as much as saying we will one day colonate Mars.
by flow
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 5:15 PM
Can't you see ? He's going psyops on us. I really wish we would stop letting him taking this debate over. He's drawing the attention by insulting us now and then, and otherwise deliberately stating stupid facts that are keeping us from the essence of this site. To form an alternative, stronger growing network of TRUTH.

One time he's excusing, the other time he's insulting. And in this way, we give more attention to him than to 9/11, which is exactly his only purpose. So don't debate him. He is not an honest human being who we can hope to convey a certain message to. He is a whore, paid to do a job. No one makes love to a whore.

Truth doesn't count for him. Look how he responded to my latest post, and compare that to his previous post. Black and white. Psyops ! Any normal being would have left this forum long time ago. But he's on a mission.

His conservative reactions serve only one purpose: to distract us from discussing what happened on 9/11. Lets' just keep doing that. Because the awareness is growing world wide. It can not be stopped, not by a million ridiculous videos. Anyone stubbornly refusing to ask questions about this non-investigation isn't worth our attention anyway.

Who is thinking about the next level: street protest ?
Who prefers death above fascism ?
by flow
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 6:32 PM
Which is easier to believe: That the world's mightiest military power, along with an unparalleled national security and intelligence apparatus, failed to predict, interdict or even put up a decent fight against the most deadly attack in this country's modern history? Or that people in high places put out the word to stand down and let it happen?
by Eric
Friday Apr 19th, 2002 6:00 AM
You know Ruppert REALLY isn't saying much. If you get to the crux of what he is really implying, all he really is doing is taking a general, plausible idea and accrediting it with a mountain of misinformation.

"The Bush administration had advanced warning of the attacks"

What does this really mean? Did W. himself know the exact hour? the minute? Not likely. Does anyone have any evidence to the contrary? A video tape, perhaps, with him admitting this? A telephone recording? an email? A witness? The answer is, of course, ... no.

So does this mean that someone in the gov't other than Bush knew ahead of time? Maybe, maybe not. No evidence.

What Ruppert is really saying is that the Bush administration knew there were bad people in this world. Bad, bad people. People that wanted to do this. People that had the resources to do this. People that were capable of doing this. And the Bush Administration knew bin Laden was on this "list" of those bad, bad people. So therefore, they should have seen it coming. Therefore, the Bush administration is to blame.

But then he gets carried away with it and tries to whip you folks into a frenzy. Sorta like Flow with his street protests. Sort of like Hitler did with the Germans. The bad part is when these "movements" catch on and gain momentum. That's when people really die. That's when the world suffers.

Ok, say is the Bush Administration responsible. I argue no more than you or I. I saw something like this coming ahead of time too. I thought that 9-11 scheme up 10 years ago when I used to ponder these sort of scenarios. Suicide hijackers crash into skyscapers. It's not that complicated. So I guess because I thought of it before 9-11, I'm responsible too.

Wanna hear so more likely attacks? Terrorist bomb every flight control tower in the US simultaneously at the middle of the day. Ever seen a grid map of the US when jet congestion is at it's maximum above our heads? Imagine how many crashes there would be if these planes had no organized way to land.

Here's a more likely scenario. Terrorists get ahold of 20 kilos of fissionable material. Enriched Uranium 235 or Plutonium. The build a bomb. Maybe 2. You can download the plans off the internet. Low yield, sure, but capable of leveling DC. Or LA. Or NYC. No problem. They put it in the back of a U-haul truck and drive it to destination target ground zero. Anybody else thought this one up? If you have then you're as guilty as me. You're as guilty as Bush. You're as guilty as the gov't. Just for thinkin'. You're gulty. You knew it was coming. You had advanced warning. I'm giving it to you now. Hell, maybe they'll decide to take out San Francisco. I doubt we could get that lucky but maybe. But rest assured, it's just a matter of time. You heard it here first.

I'm also, again very flattered by the credit Flow gives me. That I'm on a mission. That I'm some sort of operative or whatever. It means he thinks enough of what I'm saying to consider it a threat. That it's significant. But all I would submit to you is to not pick someone like that to be your leader. Good grief, you'd be better off with a paranoid schizophrenic leading you into the streets. If your gonna protest, at least pick someone with some sense to lead you. Otherwise, you'll be about as well off as the Palestinians led by Arafat.

by Eric
Friday Apr 19th, 2002 7:37 AM
Come on people, get off of your high horses. Even if our president was in on a conspiracy to rally the great American people, at least now we are out to get bad evil people. Either way, true or false, I'm glad that we are leading the forcesw against evil and evil doers and if it took sacrificing a couple thousand Americans and the few other nationality folks that were in the WTC, then so be it. So far we have killed many more thousands than died in the WTC, women and children too and we're not going to stop until only good decent American loving people are left.
by Flow
Friday Apr 19th, 2002 8:34 AM
I did.

I just wanted to show everyone how easy it could be to discredit this war monger and keep his gabage from influencing our debate. If he is going to use psyops then so am I. So now you've had a taste of what it could be like Eric. Next time you won't be so lucky as for me to come clean.
by Flow
Friday Apr 19th, 2002 8:39 AM
I didn't post this one either.

This site is no place for a debate, nothing can be trusted as being from whomever.
by Eric
Friday Apr 19th, 2002 8:40 AM
Gee, it's really gotten ugly here. Now Flow is posting comment using my name. And they say there is no honor among thieves. I suppose that must hold true for activists as well.

I suppose I'll just have to change my name each time I post a comment. That'll keep ya guessin' won't it, Flow?
by Eric
Friday Apr 19th, 2002 10:37 AM
satan.jpg
satan.jpg

Let's see if this works
by Flow
Friday Apr 19th, 2002 12:01 PM
he_is_right.jpg
he_is_right.jpg

I wish all you Bush supporters would just go away!
by Eric
Friday Apr 19th, 2002 12:05 PM
I think James hit the nail on the head when he posted:

>If all this is true, court out the evidence. You know, it's not that hard for McKinney or Mike Ruppert to convene a Grand Jury to look at whatever evidence they have to see if it should go forward. You can convene a Grand Jury for any reason. You make not get anywhere with it, but if you have evidence of a crime and you're not doing all you can to make the evidence known, that in and of itself is a crime, not only on the law books, but to all mankind. So, if they have evidence, they need to come forward.

That paragraph says it all! I challenge any supporter of Ruppert or McKinney to refute it! And if (as I expect) none can, then this whole 9-11 gov't conspiracy hogwash is debunked right now. It's all smack talk and bovine fecal matter so let's get on with bigger and better things.

The line at the conspiracy theory administration department service desk is long, the sign says "Now serving Number 9,475,218", and the attedant is ignoring the Rupert/McKinney odd couple and hollaring "NEXT!!!" at the top of his lungs.
by james
Friday Apr 19th, 2002 12:09 PM
The Gauntlett has been thrown. The question on the floor is this:

If Mike Ruppert has evidence that 9/11 was a government plot, etc... why doesn't he convene a Grand Jury to hear the evidence? Any citizen in the USA can call to have a Grand Jury hear evidence. Certainly some attorney is willing to help him with filing the paperwork. If he has evidence that this was something other than the "official government version", then he needs to present the evidence before a Grand Jury. As ex-law enforcement, he knows this to be true. In fact, for him to have evidence and NOT present it would in and of itself be a crime, not only on the law books, but to all mankind.

He either has enough solid evidence for a Grand Jury to move to trial or he doesn't. That's the reason for convening Grand Jury's. He should take advantage. The rest of you who agree with him should encourage him to do so.
by James
Friday Apr 19th, 2002 3:19 PM
As far as I can tell all of Ruppert’s allegations are circumstantial, facts yes, but no smoking gun, no directly incriminating evidence, just LOTS of circumstantial evidence. Advance warnings by three intelligence agencies of Russia, Israel, and Germany, Vreeland’s actions, the failure of fighter jets to be scrambled when this is standard procedure in much less alarming situations (even though the US had been forewarned of very possible jet hijacking and suicide terror missions in the works), the altering of the Airforce web site two days after the event to change the apparent availability of scrambler ready jets, Bush’s continuing to talk to First Graders (what a propaganda ploy if Ruppert’s allegations are true) for almost a half hour after learning of the second hit, Bush not being notified until almost an hour after all four airplanes were known to be hijacked, the fact that he was not whisked off to safer ground rather than being within a few short miles of a major airport, the extraordinary put options on stocks of just the airlines involved and the businesses in the WTC, these are facts but not a one is incriminating. There is not enough evidence for a grand jury investigation YET. So does that mean its “all smack talk and bovine fecal matter” as whoever that poster was who said that? NO! What it means is this guy who made that comment is like cattle, sheep, as long as he is happily fed he doesn’t mind waiting in the slaughter line. Such a tiny mind, controlled by the satiation of the senses. Eric, if that is your name, show us some more of this psychosis, it is educational to see the rationale of the complacently insane.
by mike
Friday Apr 19th, 2002 4:11 PM
all I can say is that the order to stand down the jets on 9/11 corresponds with ancient Egyptian phrophecy of King Nostradomus at Babylon who said stand down you remote controllers what more do you want i'm not saying it proves a conspiracy i'm saying open your mind to the possiblility who benefits? that's what I ask who benefits? the DuPonts were major funders behind the Sex Pistols' first album this is widely know David Rockefeller met with bin Laden's uncle at the U.N. right after the Japanese surrender. Coincidence? here's a link that proves jesus never existed now go ahead and deny it you can't well that's all ruppert is saying he's asking the questions no one else is asking he's taking the tough stands oh sure go ahead and say it's all a bunch of conspiracy thinking that's what Uncle Murray said when the intel conspiracy was first unmasked who's laughing now. it all fits together. "Atta boy," George W Bush said to one of the first graders one of the hijackers was named Mohammed Atta. Coincindence? I think not. Here's 600,000 more links that prove conclusively that anyone who doesn't support these conspiracy theories is a tool of the fascist multinational liberal conspiracy it's all coming back to me now Colin Powell a peace maker? Don't make me laugh. Skull and Crossbones is run by the Trilateral Commission just you go ahead and deny it you flat earthers. Coincidence? i laugh in your brainwashed sheep of a face you running trotskyite milktoast egg mcmuffin plophead
by flow
Saturday Apr 20th, 2002 2:35 PM
all posts by 'Flow' are not mine. I think that says enough.

peace.

I'm out.
by [&quot;TechKnomen&quot;] &quot;free inhabitan
( ucomm [at] kih.net ) Saturday Apr 20th, 2002 11:01 PM
Naw, it ain't that complicated for four groups of foriegners to get on four seperate high prioity flights none of which had airmarshals(75%chance based on 1000 marshals and 15000non commuter flights a day?), sucessfully turn off all the radar transponders, avoid being tracked by norad, or shot down? hit 3 of 4 targets, and leave one of the culprets passports slightly charred on the streets of N.Y. to "prove" it was a al Quida guy? And that allah was withe them. so much so that Bush shut down FBI efforts to shadow Al Quida and Usama back in the summer,(David Shippers atty), allah cant seem to shut down the tons of story links on http://infowars.com govt. prior knowlege section and others; WorldNetDaily: U.S. equipped
terror sponsors
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WND Exclusive
DAY OF INFAMY 2001
U.S. equipped
terror sponsors

Clinton exported NSA-ducking phone, high-tech encryption devices to Syria


By Paul Sperry

by BOND
Sunday Apr 21st, 2002 3:30 AM
Defending Cynthia McKinney
by C. A. Fitts • Friday April 19, 2002 at 10:57 PM

"recovering Republican" and Former Assistant Secretary of Housing in the First Bush
Administration, Catherine Austin Fitts defends Cynthia McKinney's call for investigation.

LETTER TO THE EDITORS OF THE ATLANTIC JOURNAL AND CONSTITUTION

April 16, 2002

Ladies and Gentlemen:

I was deeply disappointed to read your editorial regarding Congresswoman
McKinney's efforts to hold government accountable for performance.

On September 11, America experienced a horrible failure of our national
security and intelligence infrastructure. Despite our investing
approximately $350 billion a year in what is supposed to be the world's
finest military and intelligence capacity, over 3,000 people died as the
world watched helpless to do a thing. An hour after the first act of war,
the Pentagon could not protect its own headquarters. Shortly thereafter, we
were asked to underwrite a $48 billion increase in the Pentagon's budget, on
the theory that more money would make us safe.

Congresswoman McKinney has asked that we investigate whether the reports by
numerous mainstream press that we had been warned are true and why they
failed to help protect us. She has also asked why there is $2.3 trillion
missing at the Pentagon as confirmed by Secretary Rumsfeld in Congressional
Testimony before the Armed Services Committee of which Congresswoman
McKinney is a member.

Your readers, Georgia taxpayers, based on 1999 IRS Individual taxes for the
state of Georgia, pay $5,324 every year for ever man, woman and child. Of
that amount, based on the President's budget before the 9-11 increases,
$4,595, or approximately 85% went to the eleven agencies who based on
Senator Thompson's report "Government on the Brink" and Congressman Horn's
annual report card could not produce reliable financial systems or financial
audits, as required. Of those eleven agencies, two (Department of Defense
and HUD) are missing over $3.3 trillion between fiscal 1998-2000.

By calling for traditional standards of transparency and accountability in
government, Congresswoman McKinney is trying to make sure that the citizens
of Georgia do not have to pay even more while they get even less. She merits
your respect and consideration.

Sincerely Yours,

Catherine Austin Fitts, President Solari
Former Assistant Secretary of
Housing, First Bush Administration, Former Managing Director & Member of the
Board, Dillon Read & Co. Inc.

####################


Thoughts On Our War Against Terrorism
http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/03.29G.McKinney.War.htm
Bush Must Answer September 11th Questions
http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/opinion/0402/0415equal.html

'We Believe Cynthia' Campaign
http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/04/123533.php
by yanni chiflas
Tuesday Apr 23rd, 2002 2:22 AM
Are you a paid stoolie for the gov, or an ignorant bystander dripping outside the hole? The net is plum full of bits and pieces. Put them together, and you will see the puzzle resolved before your eyes; make sure you open them, of course... before you are hauled to the concentration camp.
by Jur Lozt Zkru
Tuesday Apr 23rd, 2002 3:05 AM
Why are flies attrakted to krap is not a wonder, but all these nice, intelligent people ACTUALLY BOTHERING TO ANSWER ALL your ignorant-idiot komments is a real slurprise. Grow up, krap, and stop kizzing (joto!) "my President" repositories. Don't bend over bee-4 ur time, pendeko. Wait till "my President" orders you!! Joto!
by Jur Lozt Zkru
Wednesday Apr 24th, 2002 7:37 AM
Why are flies attrakted to krap is not a wonder, but all these nice, intelligent people ACTUALLY BOTHERING TO ANSWER ALL your ignorant-idiot komments is a real slurprise. Grow up, krap, and stop kizzing (joto!) "my President" repositories. Don't bend over bee-4 ur time, pendeko... wait till "my President" orders you!! Joto!
by Jur Lozt Zkru
Wednesday Apr 24th, 2002 7:38 AM
Why are flies attrakted to krap is not a wonder, but all these nice, intelligent people ACTUALLY BOTHERING TO ANSWER ALL your ignorant-idiot komments is a real slurprise. Grow up, krap, and stop kizzing (joto!) "my President" repositories. Don't bend over bee-4 ur time, pendeko... wait till "my President" orders you!! Joto!
by Jur Lozt Zkru
Wednesday Apr 24th, 2002 7:38 AM
Why are flies attrakted to krap is not a wonder, but all these nice, intelligent people ACTUALLY BOTHERING TO ANSWER ALL your ignorant-idiot komments is a real slurprise. Grow up, krap, and stop kizzing (joto!) "my President" repositories. Don't bend over bee-4 ur time, pendeko... wait till "my President" orders you!! Joto!
by Jur Lozt Zkru
Wednesday Apr 24th, 2002 7:39 AM
Why are flies attrakted to krap is not a wonder, but all these nice, intelligent people ACTUALLY BOTHERING TO ANSWER ALL your ignorant-idiot komments is a real slurprise. Grow up, krap, and stop kizzing (joto!) "my President" repositories. Don't bend over bee-4 ur time, pendeko... wait till "my President" orders you!! Joto!
by Jur Lozt Zkru
Wednesday Apr 24th, 2002 7:46 AM
Why are flies attrakted to krap is not a wonder, but all these nice, intelligent people ACTUALLY BOTHERING TO ANSWER ALL your ignorant-idiot komments is a real slurprise. Grow up, krap, and stop kizzing (joto!) "my President" repositories. Don't bend over bee-4 ur time, pendeko... wait till "my President" orders you!! Joto!
by title
( needed ) Thursday Apr 25th, 2002 3:37 AM
Please, look at the facts and not the government for advice. You will soon find out that it is all a scheme. The takover or impending downfall of the Organization of Chemical Weapons is the next step in war. In the next year, if you are my age of 20, you will see another vietnam in Iraq, and all of you non-believers will have an epiphany and sit there after you soil yourself, and say, wow, those anarchists were right. let's start a revolution. You will not be welcome.
by bo
Friday Apr 26th, 2002 2:03 AM
Just remember, "no title", patriots don't question the
president or his role in the radar controlled plane crashes of 911.
They just go to war.
Registered for the draft?
Here's some reading for you when you're in line at the
military roll call-
Gerard Colby- Behind the Nylon Curtain, it will help to
remember how much $ you are making the arms dealers.
Cathy O'Brien and Mark Phillips- The TranceFormation
of America. It will enthuse you to become a CIA agent
if you're into little children.
Kenyon Gibson et al., Hemp for Victory- This wil give you the facts about wars and how US arms dealers
start them to make $. You'll be glad you can lay down
your life for Ken Lay, and maybe kick some pot smoking hippies while you're still alive.
Michael Gough- Agent Orange- this book will let you know about the diseases suffered by Vietnem vets, so
if you come back alive, there's still hope you can suffer for your country, right or wrong.
Just don't talk about the constitution too much, there was an FBI flyer recently sent to the Phoenix police
asking them to crack down on people who did.
Got the picture?
Eric should be able to help you out on this one.

Regards,
Bo
by Eric
Friday Apr 26th, 2002 5:18 AM
Thanks for all the attention guys. But I grow weary of the redundant accusations and name calling so I'm seeking higher ground. This thread has gotten sufficiently off base, what with the name calling, "buy my hemp book", and "he is cia" etc. I guess my work here is done.

Ciao
by flow
Friday Apr 26th, 2002 9:53 AM
o please stay eric. you seemed like such an honest, humanity-loving person !

in a nutshell, eric, you don't happen to believe that ufo's might really be from extraterrestrial origin do you ?

everyone should take a look at these hour long video excerpts from the disclosure conference. give it some time to download, then click again.

http://www.disclosureproject.org/npcwebcast.htm


let's see if Eric can pull a new assignment out of this one. I understand Eric - or should I say Bush Sr. ? we all have to make a living.
but the truth can NOT be hidden for ever, whatever the brainwashed level is you're on. why don't you get an honest job and JOIN the people ? surely you're one of us ? please, and I don't mean this sarcastically, but you're welcome !!!

oh well, you can also kill me. but I would still not be mad at you.
by Eric
Friday Apr 26th, 2002 2:02 PM
No Flow I shall not kill you. No, no. To quote one of my favorite serial killer personalities, Dr. Hannibal Lector...

"I have no plans to call on you, the world being far more intersting with you in it. Be sure you extend me the same courtesy."

Anyway, I much prefer to eat your liver with some fava beans and a nice chianti.
by flow
Saturday Apr 27th, 2002 9:18 AM
it's flow not Flow you phoney.

by flow
Monday Apr 29th, 2002 3:13 PM
pentagonxox3.jpg
pentagonxox3.jpg

>
by jeff
( methodologyx [at] yahoo.com ) Monday Apr 29th, 2002 6:44 PM
Hey, I liked your comments. Can I recommend some good books or websites? (methodologyx [at] yahoo.com)
by jeff
( methodologyx [at] yahoo.com ) Monday Apr 29th, 2002 6:49 PM
Sorry, that last message was directed to Last Refuge of Scoundrels. Please, send me book and website suggestions.
by Detroit Demolition
Monday Apr 29th, 2002 7:51 PM
Flow, that picture seems easy to explain. Notice how the wings angle toward the aft end of the plane, rather then being perfectly perpendicular to the fuselage? Perhaps, when the foremost part of the wings (the part that attaches to the fuselage) struck the building, they were clipped off, and they simultanaeously folded toward the plane? In this particular instance, my guess is that somebody started circulating a "a jet didn't hit the pentagon" conspiracy for fun and games.
by Detroit Demolition
Monday Apr 29th, 2002 8:09 PM

Oh, another thing (besides wondering how accurate the scale of that pic is?)
... _if_ the plane struck the pentagon at an extreme angle, it's also possible an entire wing could've struck more-or-less "head on" (starboard wing in the pic), or, one wing-tip could've hit at about the same time as the nose? but, it still might've crumpled toward the fuselage, rather then causing remarkable damage to the building?



by An Orwellian Nightmare
Tuesday Apr 30th, 2002 5:37 AM
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/bgShockwaves.html
by Detroit Demolition
Tuesday Apr 30th, 2002 1:15 PM
flow: I typed your moniker with a capital "F" without giving it much thought. I didn't know distinctions such as small case and large case letter use Internet nicks was such a controversy on this site.

"if you wanna lie to us, make sure it's full proof. "

Hey buddy, I was conversationally commenting off the top of my head and interjecting a few random thoughts on the pic you posted. Noting more, nothing less...

So, anybody who prefers to think for themselves, rather then accept the implied truth that goes along with a simulated pic that you post, is a liar? If that's the case, then fuck you. Sure, I don't neccesarily accept all the news and info that the "mainstream" media puts out as accurate, but why should I then -- as some seem to do -- automatically believe every crackpot theory (and no, I don't think all conspiracy theories are crackpot, but a lot of them are) that contradicts said media and official reports?

I'd have to look into this more, but, I still think it's a possibility, that if the part of the wings that connects to the fuselage hit the building first, then that could've affected how much damage an entire wing would cause to areas of the building distanced from the nose of the jet's point of entry.

I haven't spent hours and hours considering, dissecting and analyzing every nuance of Flight 77. When this theory first came out, that a Boeing 757 didn't hit the Pentagon, most of what I read was saying that it wasn't an aircraft that hit the building, and it was likely a truck bomb or some such thing. So I didn't follow up on it. To me, it seemed either a deliberate disinformation campaign to discredit legitmate inquiries and investigations into 9-11 (see: http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0203/S00030.htm ), or, the theory was started by somebody with time on their hands that was clowning around, etc...

The presentation at the link to the nerdcities site (that you provided in your most recent post) is a little better in the "raising doubts" department, when compared to what I've seen previously . I'll give it some more thought when I have the time. At least that site is saying it's likely a smaller plane hit the building, but -- and try not to take it personally -- I'm still very wary of the Flight 77 theories.

Now, if you want to talk about whether or not flight 93 was shot down, or forced down by passengers...

http://www.flight93crash.com/

I'm leaning more towards believing it was shot down, after considering the info at the above URL
by flow
Tuesday Apr 30th, 2002 6:16 PM
I'm a bit sensible as to flow or Flow. several threads above were posted under Flow that didn't come from me, so...

as to the fuck you, I wasn't adressing you, but the conspirators. sorry that wasn't clear.

no harm intended.
by private
Wednesday May 1st, 2002 11:10 AM
-----Why did nobody fire them for it?
The National Lampoon Radio Hour once did a skit using a bull horn to shout “This is L. Patrick Gray of the FBI. If I don’t come out with my hands up, I’m coming in after me!”
The corporate media is there to misdirect any real questioning like “Why do the heads of all 26 U.S. spy agencies still have jobs?” Eventually, President Bush could provide some lowly scapegoat that the networks could rip up. When was the last time a billionaire international weapons dealer got busted? O.K., so the Chairman of ENRON had to sell a couple houses and open a store to sell some of the furniture. That doesn’t count.
Politicians spend much of their time raising money. The system is designed so that money almost always wins. Give them enough money and they will start sending you Christmas cards. Think that those that control the flows of money/guns/drugs also influence the government from the shadows?
Only one Senator from Wisconsin voted against the USA Patriot Act. Party leaders rushed members to vote before the bill was completely printed. The President personally asked the Senate Majority Leader to limit investigation into the events of 9-11. The Vice-President has also warned Congress to pull away from a full inquiry. The Reagan/Bush eras featured secret proxy wars in Afghanistan, Angola and Nicaragua. Under President Bush Sr., came sanctions against Iraqi civilians, to which UN agencies attribute an estimated 1.5 million deaths, at least half of them young children.
We need intensive investigations by Congress, beyond the muted Senate/House Intelligence Committee investigation limited to “intelligence failures”. Only Congress has a chance to find out who did what and how much money was made from all those deaths on September 11th. Congress is afraid. Call your honorable Congressperson today. We need to know.


"Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation." --Clarence Darrow


by Raaz Mataaz
Wednesday May 8th, 2002 5:21 AM
Aw, Sophie, shaddap! If U don't like what U read... don't read it!! Stop being our mommie, OK?
by Raaz Mataaz
Wednesday May 8th, 2002 5:41 AM
Hey, Eriko, do U work for the CocaInA? R U paid by the Rockefellers to defend their establishment? OR R U a dead bit pretentious moron a** kisser of anything that stinks like corrupt government??
by B. Selby
Sunday May 19th, 2002 3:27 PM
It seems that a lot of content on this site is devoted to arguing with a single argumentative person (so-called 'Eric') who obviously is not interested in learning anything new or in trading worthwhile information. This seems to me to be a waste of time. If we're all here to become informed and learn more about the world then it doesn't help to fill up the website arguing with someone who is demonstrably infantile and clearly just trying to provoke people.

It is also worth noting that argumentative posters may not be who or what they seem. I know this can sound paranoid, but it has been proven that corporations will hire consultants to pose as non-existent people in order to spread disinformation or disrupt dialog on sites that oppose their corporate interests. Check out this link: http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0514-03.htm

We would be crazy to assume that the govt. doesn't do the same thing.

'Eric' is probably not a paid consultant... probably just some bored reactionary with too much time on his hands... But either way, it seems to me that we would serve our own interests better by ignoring anyone who repeatedly demonstrates that they are just here to be disruptive.
by Denise Hood
Thursday May 23rd, 2002 10:01 AM
Sugarland, TX is the home turf of one, U.S. Rep. Tom DeLay (R), that little rat-bastard S.S. nazi creep, known on the hill as "the velvet hammer."
It was creeps and thugs from his D.C. office who were photographed disrupting the Florida vote count. Also, the $100,000 Enron gift bankrolled their airfares and hotels, etc., and pretty much bankrolled the entire operation to "stop the Florida vote recount."
It's all interconnected, like the underground tunnels of the rats that they are.
by just wondering
Saturday May 25th, 2002 10:32 PM
that this thread is by far and away the longest thread on SF-IMC?
by jack brodnax
Tuesday May 28th, 2002 1:48 AM
Man with a vision is blind as a bat, Where does Ruppert contradict Chomsky inxcontraveribly?
by jack brodnax
Tuesday May 28th, 2002 1:48 AM
Man with a vision is blind as a bat, Where does Ruppert contradict Chomsky inxcontraveribly?
by jack brodnax
Tuesday May 28th, 2002 1:48 AM
Man with a vision is blind as a bat, Where does Ruppert contradict Chomsky inxcontraveribly?
by Mohammad's 7-years old wife
Thursday May 30th, 2002 1:14 PM

“Islam and Muslim under siege”. This should have happened a long time ago. Now, it requires even stronger response from the West. These are the price Muslim has to pay to evolve to 21st century from 7th century to be part of a better society.

There are over 50 Islamic countries in the world.

a) Which country's system of government, laws, regulation and people's behavior, habits, bribery, cheat, hypocrisy etc. would you like to see implemented all over the word, "as is", with an objective to be able to see a better world? Pick your choice. Saudi Arabia? Pakistan? Iran? How about Iraq? Or even Turkey? Which one is going to be?

b) Now envision another world where one of the western system, values, habits, everything is implemented as is.

In which case a) or b) the world would be a better place to live in?

This is called thought experiment. Albert Einstein used to do it a lot.

Anyway, Muslims are standing naked in the world Arena. They need to be spanked first before admitting them to the civilized society of the world. I used to be Muslims a long time ago. Fortunately, I quickly realized that current version of Islam and Muslims have nothing good to offer. So I left Islam by choice 30 years ago.

Muslim just can't accept their defeat of last 500 years. Now they already have realized they can't compete with the West in science, technology, medicine, economics, civil liberty, freedom, equal rights, high-morality, Nobel Prize, Sports etc. Therefore, Muslim’s only choice is to destroy the West. Destroy the world so at the best they can come out even.


by War
Thursday May 30th, 2002 1:18 PM
Mr. Anwar:

Bis-millah her-rahma nir-raheem.

You asked for it.

Item 1
You will have to be patient. This is a long one. I will read your response as long as you don’t give me BS of your prophet Mohammed and Quran. I want to see Muslims’ action. Action of last couple of centuries, their contribution for the betterment of mankind, because I am condemning thinking capability, mentality and action of PRESENT day’s Muslim.

Item 2
Please read this email twice, think before you answer. I have put item numbers for your convenient. Keep in mind that I am talking about 90% of Muslim population of the world. 5% are probably reasonable Muslim. Another important thing for you to know is that I don’t buy what Muslims say in front of the camera but what is in their mind and their act.

Item 3
There is a difference between American Muslims and Muslims living in the US with US citizenship or otherwise. The former is less than 10% of the total US Muslim population and the later is 90%. It is very clear that you belong to the later group. I have read and saved several of your emails in our mail server that you sent to your buddies.

Item 4
An American holds US interest first.
Muslims in the US hold Islamic country's interest first.

Item 5
“You wrote: Having a difference of opinion is part of our constitutional right and
part of any civilized society.”
That is exactly what those 19 Muslim suicide bombers used. They used the openness of our civilized society. They used our trust. They used our kindness. They learned how to use our system. They used our tolerance. They learned how to fly our planes in our schools because we did not suspect them. Now Muslims in the US can never fool us with those words “constitutional rights”, “civilized society”, “we condemn 911 act but….”, “Islam is a peaceful religion” and so on. There is no constitutional right without security. Those days are over for Muslims. That is why we passed so many anti-terrorist laws in the recent days, backed by popular support for it.

Item 6
For you information:
If congress declare emergency then President can suspend the constitution. FEMA takes over. They can pull out anyone from their home and shoot him/her on the street in front of everybody-no question ask. We are not there yet. If you do not believe this go check it out with a legal expert.


Item 7
911 was a wakeup call for us. But what is more alarming is the world wide Muslims’ sympathy for terrorist and reaction against Mr. Bushes policy on war against terrorism starting from Afghanistan. It is very clear to informed Americans, media, and our government that 80% to 90% Muslims of the world, including the one lives in the US, and/or Europe wants to see destruction of the western civilization, if they had their way.

Item 8
Following facts are not public knowledge:
a) 43% Kuwaiti considers Osama as their hero. Only 35% thinks otherwise.
b) 83% Muslims in Pakistan wanted to see Taliban win.
c) 80% Muslims of the world wanted to see Saddam win in the Gulf war.
d) 80% Muslims of the world favored banning of Salaman Rushdie book.
e) 75% Muslims were for his (Mr. Rushdie) death sentence.
f) 90% of Americans favors Mr. Bushes decision on war on terrorism and starting that from Afghanistan whereas 90% Muslims in the US are against it.
g) Previous sanctions against Pakistan and Iraq.
h) Only 15% Americans think Muslims are favorable to terrorist’s cause (Philistine issue, US troops in Saudi Arabia, and sanction against Afghanistan). (You are lucky.)
i) 80% Egyptians believe WTC-911 attack was carried by Jews and that over 4,000 jews did not show up for work on that day.

Item 9
Its simply doesn’t matter where you live, US, UK, Holland, Australia. What matters is whether you are a Muslim or not. You have declared the West as your country of convenience for material gains. After screwing up 50 or so Islamic country’s system now you folks have infested the West. If Islamic laws were so good then why don’t you just implement that in one of your Islamic country and show us how great the result is. I don’t buy what you think Quran says. I go buy your action. Quran is interpreted hundred different ways by hundred different group. Therefore, it has no value whatsoever. Show me Muslims action.

Item 10
I know, that you know, most Americans are not very politically informed. That is a good news for you. American people’s ignorance of Muslims hidden agenda is keeping you alive here. If they had known above (a) through (i) facts then Muslims would be in deep trouble in the US. However, for your information, our government is now aware of this. Our government is not advertising above facts to save Muslims life from massive scale public backlash.

Item 11
Hundreds of school in Saudi Arabia, thousands of Madrassas in Pakistan, hundreds of Mosques in the US and Europe, dozens of charity fund raising front, are churning out tens of millions of Walking-Talking-NonThinking-West-Hating-Parasitic-Islamic-Terrorist-Robots.

Thanks god, now US government knows about it.

Item 12
Food for your thought:

Any action US takes for its own interest that goes against an Islamic country you and people like you are against it. American population overwhelmingly supports each of the following. Notice: I did not list Vietnam War because Vietnam War did not have public support. I am comparing the things that are supported by American public versus Muslims.

War on Afghanistan.
War on Iraq.
Closing BCCI (Bank for Crook and Criminals Incorporated)
Freezing of account of Holy Land Foundation (Recent development)
Supporting of Salaman Rushdie’s right to write his thought.
Attacking Lybia in 86.
US attempt to rescue its hostages from Iran.

This list can go on forever.

Item 13
If you replace our president, Mr. Bush, with any other US president then our president would still be taking similar actions. And Muslims won’t approve it. Muslims in the US. Europe, world, CAIR, ISNA, and dozen more organization will again be against it. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to determine that Muslims interest is in sharp conflict with American interest. Do you think American government doesn’t realize this? They do now.

Item 14
People with more or less similar interest, culture, ambition, and ideology, live and thrive together. You should leave this country and find one that matches your interest. I guess, it is too painful for you to give up your worldly things. Look at Osama, a multi-millionaire, choose to live a very simple life. Isn’t that what prophet Mohammad taught you? You should go to Afghanistan to fight for Taliban. Look, thousands of Pakistani is fighting with Taliban. But you are too greedy to give up all the luxury the West has to offer. I am sure you can come up with some excuse for not moving to back to an Islamic country. At least Osama stood for what he believes in. If you do not believe in Osama philosophy then at least you can go to one of those Islamic country and make that a better place. Can you?

Item 15 (CAIR web site)
Billy Graham’s son, Franklin Graham: openly declared that “Islam is a wicked religion and Muslims are evil people”

Item 16 (AMA web site)
A prominent national Islamic advocacy group today called on Rabbi Marvin Hier to clarify his accusation that the Quran, Islam's revealed text, holds "extremist" views.

Item 17 (ISNA web site)
In a joint statement issued today, the American Muslim Alliance (AMA), American Muslim Council (AMC), Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), Islamic Society of North America (ISNA), Islamic Circle of North America (ICNA), Muslim American Society (MAS), Muslim Public Affairs Council (MPAC), and Muslim Student Association of USA and Canada, and CEO of Holy Land Foundation said: “He [Mr. Bush} has a lot to answer to Islamic community.”

Item 18
To keep your status quo, your family and friend’s consent, approval, your sense of right and wrong has surrendered in front of the masses. You can’t rise up and say anything against them. Do you have the guts to disagree with the Muslim organizations listed in item 15. You will loose your social acceptance.

Item 19
Do you want me to probe deeper in your brain? I am an insider. I can expose Islam and Muslims to the masses like no one else can. I know all about Islamic brain. I know genetic code of Muslim. I know every neuron of Muslim, their blood cells, their breathing. Muslims are completely rotten beyond repair, 90% of the Muslims have lost the soul with which one distinguishes between right and wrong. 21st century will be a very sad and dark century for Muslims. Go think, cry, and ask for forgiveness in solitude. God may forgive you.

Item 20
Have you ever thought why Japanese do not hate the US as much as Muslims do? What about German? How come Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, S. Korea, Japan, France, Holland, UK, Italy, Sweden, Spain, Norway, Finland, Denmark, Switzerland, Belgium,…….…and even Russia are with the US in the war against terrorism and on Afghanistan? But you and 90% Muslim population have to be against it. Why? Why? Are all these countries are idiots? These countries produce 80% of the world-GDP. 16% of the world population (Muslims, 50 or so Islamic countries) produce less than 4% of world GDP. There is another name for those people who like to live on others hard work. It is called parasite.

Item 21
I tell you why.
Because this is a war between civilizations, between haves and haves-not, between competent and incompetents, between 7th century (Islam) and 21st century, between optimists and pessimists, between losers and winners, between social and anti-social, between science-and-technology and Stone Age. That is the only way you can group the countries in the world who are with the US and who are with you and your Islamic ideology.

Item 22
Think, seriously.
If I know these, then do you think our government doesn’t know this? I would agree with you though that general Americans are ignorant of international politics and therefore, are not aware of Islamic agenda.

Item 23
I assure you that our government is now convinced that Muslims are the number one enemy of the West. Not only because 911 but for the sympathy toward the terrorist cause.

Item 24
Mr. Bush’s approval rating is 90% but 90% Muslims are against his foreign policy. That’s clearly tell us Muslims interest and American interest are two different things. Islam is more than a religion, it spans over politics, economics, power, way of living etc. and against US interest, therefore, Islam should be declared non-religion and then ban it in the US.

Akbar Rahman
by Truth
Thursday May 30th, 2002 1:22 PM
Mr. Anwar:

Bis-millah her-rahma nir-raheem.

You asked for it.

Item 1
You will have to be patient. This is a long one. I will read your response as long as you don’t give me BS of your prophet Mohammed and Quran. I want to see Muslims’ action. Action of last couple of centuries, their contribution for the betterment of mankind, because I am condemning thinking capability, mentality and action of PRESENT day’s Muslim.

Item 2
Please read this email twice, think before you answer. I have put item numbers for your convenient. Keep in mind that I am talking about 90% of Muslim population of the world. 5% are probably reasonable Muslim. Another important thing for you to know is that I don’t buy what Muslims say in front of the camera but what is in their mind and their act.

Item 3
There is a difference between American Muslims and Muslims living in the US with US citizenship or otherwise. The former is less than 10% of the total US Muslim population and the later is 90%. It is very clear that you belong to the later group. I have read and saved several of your emails in our mail server that you sent to your buddies.

Item 4
An American holds US interest first.
Muslims in the US hold Islamic country's interest first.

Item 5
“You wrote: Having a difference of opinion is part of our constitutional right and
part of any civilized society.”
That is exactly what those 19 Muslim suicide bombers used. They used the openness of our civilized society. They used our trust. They used our kindness. They learned how to use our system. They used our tolerance. They learned how to fly our planes in our schools because we did not suspect them. Now Muslims in the US can never fool us with those words “constitutional rights”, “civilized society”, “we condemn 911 act but….”, “Islam is a peaceful religion” and so on. There is no constitutional right without security. Those days are over for Muslims. That is why we passed so many anti-terrorist laws in the recent days, backed by popular support for it.

Item 6
For you information:
If congress declare emergency then President can suspend the constitution. FEMA takes over. They can pull out anyone from their home and shoot him/her on the street in front of everybody-no question ask. We are not there yet. If you do not believe this go check it out with a legal expert.


Item 7
911 was a wakeup call for us. But what is more alarming is the world wide Muslims’ sympathy for terrorist and reaction against Mr. Bushes policy on war against terrorism starting from Afghanistan. It is very clear to informed Americans, media, and our government that 80% to 90% Muslims of the world, including the one lives in the US, and/or Europe wants to see destruction of the western civilization, if they had their way.

Item 8
Following facts are not public knowledge:
a) 43% Kuwaiti considers Osama as their hero. Only 35% thinks otherwise.
b) 83% Muslims in Pakistan wanted to see Taliban win.
c) 80% Muslims of the world wanted to see Saddam win in the Gulf war.
d) 80% Muslims of the world favored banning of Salaman Rushdie book.
e) 75% Muslims were for his (Mr. Rushdie) death sentence.
f) 90% of Americans favors Mr. Bushes decision on war on terrorism and starting that from Afghanistan whereas 90% Muslims in the US are against it.
g) Previous sanctions against Pakistan and Iraq.
h) Only 15% Americans think Muslims are favorable to terrorist’s cause (Philistine issue, US troops in Saudi Arabia, and sanction against Afghanistan). (You are lucky.)
i) 80% Egyptians believe WTC-911 attack was carried by Jews and that over 4,000 jews did not show up for work on that day.

Item 9
Its simply doesn’t matter where you live, US, UK, Holland, Australia. What matters is whether you are a Muslim or not. You have declared the West as your country of convenience for material gains. After screwing up 50 or so Islamic country’s system now you folks have infested the West. If Islamic laws were so good then why don’t you just implement that in one of your Islamic country and show us how great the result is. I don’t buy what you think Quran says. I go buy your action. Quran is interpreted hundred different ways by hundred different group. Therefore, it has no value whatsoever. Show me Muslims action.

Item 10
I know, that you know, most Americans are not very politically informed. That is a good news for you. American people’s ignorance of Muslims hidden agenda is keeping you alive here. If they had known above (a) through (i) facts then Muslims would be in deep trouble in the US. However, for your information, our government is now aware of this. Our government is not advertising above facts to save Muslims life from massive scale public backlash.

Item 11
Hundreds of school in Saudi Arabia, thousands of Madrassas in Pakistan, hundreds of Mosques in the US and Europe, dozens of charity fund raising front, are churning out tens of millions of Walking-Talking-NonThinking-West-Hating-Parasitic-Islamic-Terrorist-Robots.

Thanks god, now US government knows about it.

Item 12
Food for your thought:

Any action US takes for its own interest that goes against an Islamic country you and people like you are against it. American population overwhelmingly supports each of the following. Notice: I did not list Vietnam War because Vietnam War did not have public support. I am comparing the things that are supported by American public versus Muslims.

War on Afghanistan.
War on Iraq.
Closing BCCI (Bank for Crook and Criminals Incorporated)
Freezing of account of Holy Land Foundation (Recent development)
Supporting of Salaman Rushdie’s right to write his thought.
Attacking Lybia in 86.
US attempt to rescue its hostages from Iran.

This list can go on forever.

Item 13
If you replace our president, Mr. Bush, with any other US president then our president would still be taking similar actions. And Muslims won’t approve it. Muslims in the US. Europe, world, CAIR, ISNA, and dozen more organization will again be against it. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to determine that Muslims interest is in sharp conflict with American interest. Do you think American government doesn’t realize this? They do now.

Item 14
People with more or less similar interest, culture, ambition, and ideology, live and thrive together. You should leave this country and find one that matches your interest. I guess, it is too painful for you to give up your worldly things. Look at Osama, a multi-millionaire, choose to live a very simple life. Isn’t that what prophet Mohammad taught you? You should go to Afghanistan to fight for Taliban. Look, thousands of Pakistani is fighting with Taliban. But you are too greedy to give up all the luxury the West has to offer. I am sure you can come up with some excuse for not moving to back to an Islamic country. At least Osama stood for what he believes in. If you do not believe in Osama philosophy then at least you can go to one of those Islamic country and make that a better place. Can you?

Item 15 (CAIR web site)
Billy Graham’s son, Franklin Graham: openly declared that “Islam is a wicked religion and Muslims are evil people”

Item 16 (AMA web site)
A prominent national Islamic advocacy group today called on Rabbi Marvin Hier to clarify his accusation that the Quran, Islam's revealed text, holds "extremist" views.

Item 17 (ISNA web site)
In a joint statement issued today, the American Muslim Alliance (AMA), American Muslim Council (AMC), Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), Islamic Society of North America (ISNA), Islamic Circle of North America (ICNA), Muslim American Society (MAS), Muslim Public Affairs Council (MPAC), and Muslim Student Association of USA and Canada, and CEO of Holy Land Foundation said: “He [Mr. Bush} has a lot to answer to Islamic community.”

Item 18
To keep your status quo, your family and friend’s consent, approval, your sense of right and wrong has surrendered in front of the masses. You can’t rise up and say anything against them. Do you have the guts to disagree with the Muslim organizations listed in item 15. You will loose your social acceptance.

Item 19
Do you want me to probe deeper in your brain? I am an insider. I can expose Islam and Muslims to the masses like no one else can. I know all about Islamic brain. I know genetic code of Muslim. I know every neuron of Muslim, their blood cells, their breathing. Muslims are completely rotten beyond repair, 90% of the Muslims have lost the soul with which one distinguishes between right and wrong. 21st century will be a very sad and dark century for Muslims. Go think, cry, and ask for forgiveness in solitude. God may forgive you.

Item 20
Have you ever thought why Japanese do not hate the US as much as Muslims do? What about German? How come Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, S. Korea, Japan, France, Holland, UK, Italy, Sweden, Spain, Norway, Finland, Denmark, Switzerland, Belgium,…….…and even Russia are with the US in the war against terrorism and on Afghanistan? But you and 90% Muslim population have to be against it. Why? Why? Are all these countries are idiots? These countries produce 80% of the world-GDP. 16% of the world population (Muslims, 50 or so Islamic countries) produce less than 4% of world GDP. There is another name for those people who like to live on others hard work. It is called parasite.

Item 21
I tell you why.
Because this is a war between civilizations, between haves and haves-not, between competent and incompetents, between 7th century (Islam) and 21st century, between optimists and pessimists, between losers and winners, between social and anti-social, between science-and-technology and Stone Age. That is the only way you can group the countries in the world who are with the US and who are with you and your Islamic ideology.

Item 22
Think, seriously.
If I know these, then do you think our government doesn’t know this? I would agree with you though that general Americans are ignorant of international politics and therefore, are not aware of Islamic agenda.

Item 23
I assure you that our government is now convinced that Muslims are the number one enemy of the West. Not only because 911 but for the sympathy toward the terrorist cause.

Item 24
Mr. Bush’s approval rating is 90% but 90% Muslims are against his foreign policy. That’s clearly tell us Muslims interest and American interest are two different things. Islam is more than a religion, it spans over politics, economics, power, way of living etc. and against US interest, therefore, Islam should be declared non-religion and then ban it in the US.

Akbar Rahman
by If you can't compete then destroy. - Muslims
Thursday May 30th, 2002 1:31 PM
Scum bag of Islam
by Biased site, removing my postings
( mohammad [at] yahoo.com ) Thursday May 30th, 2002 2:20 PM
Who are these people?

A large group of people on the surface of Earth contributes very little to nothing to the welfare of human race. This group of people has invented no medicine of significant importance in the last several hundred years. Modern medicines have saved hundreds of millions of life in the last hundred years. Medical technology saved far more life than the total number of life lost during all the war combined in last few hundred years.

Same group of people has declared all technological advances as not necessary or of very little importance. This group of people has not invented anything significant for human comfort, enjoyment or to reduce the pain and misery of poorest 1 billion people of the world. Since they do not have the technology they try to downplay the benefit of technology to human kind. But they also want to reap the benefit of technology and other's hard work. They are extremely jealous of other group of people who has achieved much higher standard of living by good work ethic, civic mindedness, and hard and smart work over a long period of time. The jealous group of people’s unspoken motto is, “if you do not share your wealth with us then we will destroy you by blowing ourselves up in your high value property areas. You can’t stop us showing up to your high valuable vicinity because you folks enjoy higher civil liberty. We will use your Bill of Rights to destroy you.”

This extremely jealous people’s heart is full of hatred because of extreme inferiority complex. They teach hate to their children. They are over a billion in the world. Even though they are like parasite, grows, multiplies faster than bacteria does, you do not want to exterminate them all since you hold higher moral standard. Although, these people neither has the capability to advance in science and technology, nor has the sense of fairness but they think their belief system is superior to all others and wants to rule the world. They grow like cancer cell grow. These bacteria like people, instead of focusing on constructive ideas has decided to work on destruction. They believe in suicide bombing.

Who are these people? What are you going to do about it?

An alien from outer space.
…whose measuring stick is "Reward the group of people who contributes most toward the welfare of human race, independent of national boundary, religion, or ethnicity."



by Do not remove my postings, Muslims Moron.
Thursday May 30th, 2002 2:33 PM
Mr. Anwar:

Bis-millah her-rahma nir-raheem.

You asked for it.

Item 1
You will have to be patient. This is a long one. I will read your response as long as you don’t give me BS of your prophet Mohammed and Quran. I want to see Muslims’ action. Action of last couple of centuries, their contribution for the betterment of mankind, because I am condemning thinking capability, mentality and action of PRESENT day’s Muslim.

Item 2
Please read this email twice, think before you answer. I have put item numbers for your convenient. Keep in mind that I am talking about 90% of Muslim population of the world. 5% are probably reasonable Muslim. Another important thing for you to know is that I don’t buy what Muslims say in front of the camera but what is in their mind and their act.

Item 3
There is a difference between American Muslims and Muslims living in the US with US citizenship or otherwise. The former is less than 10% of the total US Muslim population and the later is 90%. It is very clear that you belong to the later group. I have read and saved several of your emails in our mail server that you sent to your buddies.

Item 4
An American holds US interest first.
Muslims in the US hold Islamic country's interest first.

Item 5
“You wrote: Having a difference of opinion is part of our constitutional right and
part of any civilized society.”
That is exactly what those 19 Muslim suicide bombers used. They used the openness of our civilized society. They used our trust. They used our kindness. They learned how to use our system. They used our tolerance. They learned how to fly our planes in our schools because we did not suspect them. Now Muslims in the US can never fool us with those words “constitutional rights”, “civilized society”, “we condemn 911 act but….”, “Islam is a peaceful religion” and so on. There is no constitutional right without security. Those days are over for Muslims. That is why we passed so many anti-terrorist laws in the recent days, backed by popular support for it.

Item 6
For you information:
If congress declare emergency then President can suspend the constitution. FEMA takes over. They can pull out anyone from their home and shoot him/her on the street in front of everybody-no question ask. We are not there yet. If you do not believe this go check it out with a legal expert.


Item 7
911 was a wakeup call for us. But what is more alarming is the world wide Muslims’ sympathy for terrorist and reaction against Mr. Bushes policy on war against terrorism starting from Afghanistan. It is very clear to informed Americans, media, and our government that 80% to 90% Muslims of the world, including the one lives in the US, and/or Europe wants to see destruction of the western civilization, if they had their way.

Item 8
Following facts are not public knowledge:
a) 43% Kuwaiti considers Osama as their hero. Only 35% thinks otherwise.
b) 83% Muslims in Pakistan wanted to see Taliban win.
c) 80% Muslims of the world wanted to see Saddam win in the Gulf war.
d) 80% Muslims of the world favored banning of Salaman Rushdie book.
e) 75% Muslims were for his (Mr. Rushdie) death sentence.
f) 90% of Americans favors Mr. Bushes decision on war on terrorism and starting that from Afghanistan whereas 90% Muslims in the US are against it.
g) Previous sanctions against Pakistan and Iraq.
h) Only 15% Americans think Muslims are favorable to terrorist’s cause (Philistine issue, US troops in Saudi Arabia, and sanction against Afghanistan). (You are lucky.)
i) 80% Egyptians believe WTC-911 attack was carried by Jews and that over 4,000 jews did not show up for work on that day.

Item 9
Its simply doesn’t matter where you live, US, UK, Holland, Australia. What matters is whether you are a Muslim or not. You have declared the West as your country of convenience for material gains. After screwing up 50 or so Islamic country’s system now you folks have infested the West. If Islamic laws were so good then why don’t you just implement that in one of your Islamic country and show us how great the result is. I don’t buy what you think Quran says. I go buy your action. Quran is interpreted hundred different ways by hundred different group. Therefore, it has no value whatsoever. Show me Muslims action.

Item 10
I know, that you know, most Americans are not very politically informed. That is a good news for you. American people’s ignorance of Muslims hidden agenda is keeping you alive here. If they had known above (a) through (i) facts then Muslims would be in deep trouble in the US. However, for your information, our government is now aware of this. Our government is not advertising above facts to save Muslims life from massive scale public backlash.

Item 11
Hundreds of school in Saudi Arabia, thousands of Madrassas in Pakistan, hundreds of Mosques in the US and Europe, dozens of charity fund raising front, are churning out tens of millions of Walking-Talking-NonThinking-West-Hating-Parasitic-Islamic-Terrorist-Robots.

Thanks god, now US government knows about it.

Item 12
Food for your thought:

Any action US takes for its own interest that goes against an Islamic country you and people like you are against it. American population overwhelmingly supports each of the following. Notice: I did not list Vietnam War because Vietnam War did not have public support. I am comparing the things that are supported by American public versus Muslims.

War on Afghanistan.
War on Iraq.
Closing BCCI (Bank for Crook and Criminals Incorporated)
Freezing of account of Holy Land Foundation (Recent development)
Supporting of Salaman Rushdie’s right to write his thought.
Attacking Lybia in 86.
US attempt to rescue its hostages from Iran.

This list can go on forever.

Item 13
If you replace our president, Mr. Bush, with any other US president then our president would still be taking similar actions. And Muslims won’t approve it. Muslims in the US. Europe, world, CAIR, ISNA, and dozen more organization will again be against it. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to determine that Muslims interest is in sharp conflict with American interest. Do you think American government doesn’t realize this? They do now.

Item 14
People with more or less similar interest, culture, ambition, and ideology, live and thrive together. You should leave this country and find one that matches your interest. I guess, it is too painful for you to give up your worldly things. Look at Osama, a multi-millionaire, choose to live a very simple life. Isn’t that what prophet Mohammad taught you? You should go to Afghanistan to fight for Taliban. Look, thousands of Pakistani is fighting with Taliban. But you are too greedy to give up all the luxury the West has to offer. I am sure you can come up with some excuse for not moving to back to an Islamic country. At least Osama stood for what he believes in. If you do not believe in Osama philosophy then at least you can go to one of those Islamic country and make that a better place. Can you?

Item 15 (CAIR web site)
Billy Graham’s son, Franklin Graham: openly declared that “Islam is a wicked religion and Muslims are evil people”

Item 16 (AMA web site)
A prominent national Islamic advocacy group today called on Rabbi Marvin Hier to clarify his accusation that the Quran, Islam's revealed text, holds "extremist" views.

Item 17 (ISNA web site)
In a joint statement issued today, the American Muslim Alliance (AMA), American Muslim Council (AMC), Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), Islamic Society of North America (ISNA), Islamic Circle of North America (ICNA), Muslim American Society (MAS), Muslim Public Affairs Council (MPAC), and Muslim Student Association of USA and Canada, and CEO of Holy Land Foundation said: “He [Mr. Bush} has a lot to answer to Islamic community.”

Item 18
To keep your status quo, your family and friend’s consent, approval, your sense of right and wrong has surrendered in front of the masses. You can’t rise up and say anything against them. Do you have the guts to disagree with the Muslim organizations listed in item 15. You will loose your social acceptance.

Item 19
Do you want me to probe deeper in your brain? I am an insider. I can expose Islam and Muslims to the masses like no one else can. I know all about Islamic brain. I know genetic code of Muslim. I know every neuron of Muslim, their blood cells, their breathing. Muslims are completely rotten beyond repair, 90% of the Muslims have lost the soul with which one distinguishes between right and wrong. 21st century will be a very sad and dark century for Muslims. Go think, cry, and ask for forgiveness in solitude. God may forgive you.

Item 20
Have you ever thought why Japanese do not hate the US as much as Muslims do? What about German? How come Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, S. Korea, Japan, France, Holland, UK, Italy, Sweden, Spain, Norway, Finland, Denmark, Switzerland, Belgium,…….…and even Russia are with the US in the war against terrorism and on Afghanistan? But you and 90% Muslim population have to be against it. Why? Why? Are all these countries are idiots? These countries produce 80% of the world-GDP. 16% of the world population (Muslims, 50 or so Islamic countries) produce less than 4% of world GDP. There is another name for those people who like to live on others hard work. It is called parasite.

Item 21
I tell you why.
Because this is a war between civilizations, between haves and haves-not, between competent and incompetents, between 7th century (Islam) and 21st century, between optimists and pessimists, between losers and winners, between social and anti-social, between science-and-technology and Stone Age. That is the only way you can group the countries in the world who are with the US and who are with you and your Islamic ideology.

Item 22
Think, seriously.
If I know these, then do you think our government doesn’t know this? I would agree with you though that general Americans are ignorant of international politics and therefore, are not aware of Islamic agenda.

Item 23
I assure you that our government is now convinced that Muslims are the number one enemy of the West. Not only because 911 but for the sympathy toward the terrorist cause.

Item 24
Mr. Bush’s approval rating is 90% but 90% Muslims are against his foreign policy. That’s clearly tell us Muslims interest and American interest are two different things. Islam is more than a religion, it spans over politics, economics, power, way of living etc. and against US interest, therefore, Islam should be declared non-religion and then ban it in the US.

Akbar Rahman
by cp
Thursday May 30th, 2002 8:36 PM
blah blah blah

for your item 24, lots of muslims in the united states voted for Bush because they were unhappy with the Clinton administration. Lots of others voted for Nader, a lebanese american.

are you aware that jesus was from the same people who are palestinians now? 35-40% of palestinians are christian. A very large part of the palestinians who have been able to immigrate to the US are christian. What is the town of Bethlehem famous for....? I know you must know this? They don't talk about this on TV and radio because they want to steer american christians into antimuslim sentiment.
by S. Duke
Monday Jul 8th, 2002 3:32 PM
One big, HUGE problem with your theory...I am not a Muslim and I AM an American and I share alot of these same frustrations and views with what the US is doing and has done in the ME. Shame on you for lumping people and having these sweeping generalizations.

PS. You are thankful that the American population is wallowing in ignorance about the reality of the situation...they are also ignorant about the US policy in Latin America, it's own neighbor. It looks like things are looking very dire for the people in Latin America as well. It's not about religion, it's about power and a group of people who are addicted to it and will crush anybody who will stand in their way. Case in point Bush meeting with the Taliban in TX to try and negociate an oil pipeline.

by Pepe
Tuesday Jul 16th, 2002 10:59 PM
Lonegunman

Have a look at the facts and then spew your filthy mouth. In the words of Noam Chomsky: Hippocrits should not speak. You have nothing to say lonegunman.

Pepe
by Your Name
Thursday Jul 18th, 2002 9:16 PM
Perhaps Chomsky would like to have intercourse with Lucis Trust?

Very interesting topic of conversation. I've seen Mike Ruppert's video and read a lot of the conversation here. However I haven't noticed anyone mentioning why THIS type of inormation is missing from the major media (TV and newspapers).

To explain this thoroughly, read "The Missing Times" by Terry Hanson, and "Into the Buzzsay: Leading Journalists Expose the Myth of a Free Press" by Kristina Borjesson.
by howard
Wednesday Jul 31st, 2002 7:04 AM
to all the above : why are you all trying to persuade each other?
by Nelson
Friday Aug 2nd, 2002 3:59 PM
who benefits from stability and control of the oil pipelines in south-central asia? are you kidding? has anyone noticed that world oil production has peaked, and they aren't makin' any more? have you seen any big oil and energy people in the news lately? What ever happened to that healthy American habit of being deeply suspicious of government in general?
by X
Sunday Aug 11th, 2002 4:36 PM
Hi. This goes out to all progressive readers of all Indymedia forums. I am collecting a list of all racist, bigoted, etc statements made by pro-occupationists. I am looking for short statements, slurs made against pacifists, Palestinians, Islam etc. I do not want long-winded quotes, I do not want comments on the statements, I do not want intelligent analysis. I am simply wanting a large collection of objectionable statements for use in exposing the supporters of the Palestinian genocide and their true feelings. Please, no false quotes; thats just lazy, there is plenty of racism against the Palestinians to find. I am planning to print them up as a story. Send all such comments as plain text emails to dumpslurshere [at] hotmail.com

a good example would be "Islam should be declared non-religion and then ban it in the US." Thats about the limit of obviousness for this stuff. Anything *really* hateful like "Palestinians are not human" is highly desirable.

thankyou in advance.
by Michael
( bfg2001 [at] hotmail.com ) Thursday Aug 22nd, 2002 8:53 AM
Well I'm not sure what to believe anymore. I found this fascinating website a couple of days ago and within hours I was convinced I knew the truth about 'life, the Universe and everything', while the countless billions around me were poor deluded brainwashed fools not fit to wipe my shoes. I'm not saying I don't believe a lot of what I'm seeing and hearing here, I think a lot of it is probably true. I certainly don't trust politicians or big business for one second. I think they're all crooks. How else do you aspire to such a position without being a power and wealth obsessed crook? But the problem is, especially on the internet, that you can read one thing and think "Hey, wow, it all makes so much sense - why didn't I see this before", and then 5 minutes later you can read another article that is diametrically opposed to the first one but seems equally convincing and plausible. What's the truth? Maybe err on the side of caution and conclude the truth probably lies somewhere in between - but closest to the conspiracy side, and most of humanity really are brainwashed, or at least unthinking. Very few people you meet ever really think deeply about or question anything - even intelligent educated people. Their only concerns in life are - how can I get more money, how can I get more sex, what am I gonna see at the cinema tonight - kind of like the corporate bigwigs and politicians really but on a vastly smaller scale. I wish people would wake up and start asking questions. No-one can deny that the way the Bush government came to power was very very suspicious. Frankly it stank of corruption and viewing it from a distance here in Britain it seemed so blatantly criminal. Even more amazing was the speed in which the furore died down after the inauguration. It was like America just rolled over and accepted defeat at the hands of this powerful Bush family and their oil buddies. Were they complicit in the 9-11 attacks - quite possibly. Any Government immoral enough to rob their own people of their freedoms by stealing their election would be immoral enough to be behind 9-11, or at least to take full advantage of it. But to me the most fascinating subject is the fundamentally linked subject of oil and the fact that it is gonna start dissappearing very soon. Technological Civilization is going to end within our lifetime. Without technology billions will/must die as they cannot be supported by oil-based agriculture as they are now. we will be back to a simpler pre-industrial way of life. Today we're living in Cities, surfing the net, enjoying mobile phones, driving and flying. Tomorrow we'll be living in small hamlets and farming communities. Travelling by bicycle and horse-drawn cart, reading by candlelight, etc. All within the next 30-50 years. This is another thing that seems impossible to believe. It can't be so, surely I must be being gullible, how come I never heard of this before?But if you do further research you will find it is backed up by reputable professionals in the field who know what they are talking about. It is not a theory, it is apparently a fact and it's already begun. The current world recession is supposedly just the beginning - the tip of the iceberg. If this is true then why are practically no human beings aware of this? I can't believe the Governments don't know. They must know. But they're not telling the people. So the people really are brainwashed after all. Or maybe uninformed and unquestioning is a better description. One thing is certain, both on an individual and national level, when human beings don't like what they are hearing they are experts at burying their heads in the sand and hoping it will just go away. Could 9-11 and the war on terrorism be a smokescreen to give the Bush crowd (most of who'm are major movers and shakers in the oil industry - another stinking suspicious fact) total public backing and all the excuse they need to attack anyone who is sitting on top of big fat oil deposits. Why not. I thinks it's very possible, probably even likely.
by mike
Thursday Aug 22nd, 2002 2:05 PM
You sound like you're surprised. This isn't really unprecedented in history though. It happened in Rome, and it happened in Germany, and its happened even in American before (have a little look for Operation Northwood or the USS Maine).
by pointer
Thursday Aug 22nd, 2002 8:04 PM
Bush, Atta in same place just before Sept. 11

http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=199488&group=webcast
by Michael Turner
( mthead246 [at] suscom.net ) Thursday Aug 22nd, 2002 9:25 PM
To think that anyone would make such statements is absolutely nauseating! While I support your right to speak such trash, I find it difficult to believe that any American would believe your statements. Sir, I suggest you try and find another country that will allow you to speak such abominations freely and move there. You are wasting oxygen for the rest of us.
by Michael Turner
( mthead246 [at] suscom.net ) Thursday Aug 22nd, 2002 9:33 PM
My and if the US hadn't pulled you Brit's fat out of the fire in WWII your Mommy and Daddy might not have been around to spawn such ignorance.
by hist
Friday Aug 23rd, 2002 4:30 AM
US Conservatives opposed involvement in WW2; this was known as isolationism.

One of the most prominent conservative voices for US isolationism was charles lindbergh, a former aviator:

Lindbergh & the America First Committee

"If any one of these groups--the British, the Jewish, or the administration--stops agitating for war, I believe there will be little danger of our involvement."
Charles Lindbergh- September 11, 1941

On September 11, 1941, Charles Lindbergh appeared in Des Moines, Iowa, to speak on behalf of the isolationist America First Committee. The famous aviator criticized the groups he perceived were leading America into war for acting against the country's interests. He expressed doubt that the U.S. military would achieve victory in a war against Germany, which he said had "armies stronger than our own." The Des Moines speech was met with outrage in many quarters, and Lindbergh was denounced as an anti-Semite. In his hometown of Little Falls, Minnesota, his name was even removed from the town's water tower.

Six years earlier, Lindbergh had moved to England with his wife to escape the publicity surrounding the kidnapping and murder of their infant son. In 1936, he inspected Germany's military aviation program on behalf of the U.S. government, and in August attended the Summer Olympic Games in Berlin as a guests of Nazi Hermann Goering, the head of the Luftwaffe. Impressed by German industry and society under Adolf Hitler, the Lindberghs considered moving to Berlin.
In 1938, Goering presented Lindbergh with the Service Cross of the German Eagle for his contributions to aviation. Returning to America in 1939, Lindbergh became an advocate of American isolationism, but was criticized for his Nazi sympathies and anti-Semitic beliefs.
by REB
Friday Aug 23rd, 2002 7:47 AM
We can speculate until doomsday as to what our leaders might or might not have know about the attack before it happened. Most accept that people, especially people with power, are capable of doing just about any evil deed. So how have you chosen to act since the events of 9/11?
I have just sent my representatives this list of greivances and remedies I think needed.
I encourage all to do the same.

Petition For A Redress Of Grievances

GRIEVANCES:

Since it's creation in 1947 the CIA has acted as a criminal enterprise undermining legitimate, elected governments around the world ultimately undermining democracy here at home.

The CIA has carried out assassinations around the world, shaken down Heroin smuggling operations in Southeast Asia and taken them over. The CIA has been involved with heroin smugglers in Afghanistan for years. Within months of the Taliban burning the 2001 crop 9/11/01 happened, the US invaded, and in 2002 Afghanistan will produce a bumper crop of more than 5000 metric tons. Who is running things now in Afghanistan?

The CIA conducted the Phoenix program in Viet Nam, a program to assassinate citizens exercising their legal rights to organize in that country. At the same time the CIA failed completely to warn of the Tet Offensive by North Viet Nam.

The Cold War; The US waged this war against an ideology. Whatever happened to freedom of association? Are we not free to choose the financial system we want? The Cold War flew in the face of our cherished values of freedom.

The FBI's cointelpro program which infiltrated legitimate public groups to incite violence or otherwise undermine citizens legitimate efforts to exert political power. (The estate of Judy Bari recently won a multi million-dollar lawsuit against the FBI for this kind of crime)

The CIA, in cahoots with the DEA and other agencies run the drug trade in America as a means of social control. (A way to keep people too stoned to act for change, or arrest those who get in the way on real or trumped up charges) I suspect most of congress is aware of this. How do they 'get' to you?

The US ran the School of the Americas where we trained the worst elements of Latin America in torture and assassination against their own citizens.
Congress, in its zeal to go to war, passed the Gulf of Tonkin resolution starting us in a long war in Viet Nam. This resolution was based on a lie! Whose interests were advanced by the Viet Nam war? The arms merchants! That is who are in power now, the worst elements of our society.

Congress passed the War Powers act after Viet Nam telling the public that it would curb the abuses of power. In fact, the resolution gave the President more power to wage war, the opposite of what the public desired.

After 9/11/02 Congress again acted to give the President virtual dictatorial powers to wage war wherever and whenever he deems it necessary. They have allowed spying on our own citizens too. Just what do our leaders value about America?

What did/does the CIA know about the Al Queda network? Did they finance them? Why did George Bush senior meet with members of the Bin Laden family in 1999.

The granting of personhood to corporations in the 1850's: Clearly US policies support corporate interests. How do these policies protect the interests of our people?

Drug prohibition from the Marijuana Stamp act of 1933 to crime bills of recent years: A free society allows its people to choose what they put into their bodies, we just demand people control their conduct and not drive or endanger others when compromised. From Abraham Lincoln:


Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reasoning that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded.

The Iran/Contra affair: The Reagan administration conducted an illegal covert war against the people of a small country and smuggled tons of cocaine into America and arms to Iran to finance the operation. The hearings and investigations in congress failed to bring any significant change in the system.

The savings and loan scandal: This one has been swept under the carpet with the friends of Reagan and Bush walking away with billions from a ripped off public.

The looming insurance scandal: It has been predicted that the deregulation of the insurance industry will make the savings and loan scandal look like small potatoes.

The Enron scandal: With their friends in the White House these corporate thugs are poised to walk away with billions more of public cash.

Bi-partisanism: If the Democrats want to get re-elected lets see some true oppositional politics with folks of good will opposing these awful policies and presenting viable alternatives to war and Empire.


REMEDIES

Abolish the CIA and other covert spy networks and open the books on their history. No honorable or just society needs to keep its history secret and there are no facts about crimes of our past that will threaten our security. The light of day can only make us stronger.

Renew our commitment to peaceful diplomatic resolution of differences with other nations. End our obstructionism to the world's treaties, with other nations and with the indigenous tribes.

Renounce violence and war and make a real commitment to a peaceful world.

End the drug war against our own citizens. Adopt the recommendations of the Unitarian Universalist 2002 statement of conscious on ending the drug war.

Open the financial records of the wealthiest 0.1% of the population for public review and investigate the sources of that income.

Make reparations to the victims of US military aggression since the end of WWII.

Release from incarceration and make reparations to the millions of drug prisoners in the US. Continue to investigate and bring to justice the kingpins of the drug cartels. Offer leniency to those who lead law enforcement to the top kingpins.

Make reparations to Russia for undermining their freedom to conduct themselves as a sovereign nation.

Close the School of the Americas and bring to justice all the dictators we have trained.

Work towards a global community that values the principles of freedom found in our Declaration of Independence and Constitution for all of the Earths people.

Enact a total wealth tax to create an upper limit on the wealth and influence any individual can exert.

Create the space and time in every community for regular town hall meetings for interaction with our elected officials.

These steps are a beginning to a truly just and honorable society. Let us commit to go there.

by sufa
Saturday Aug 24th, 2002 4:46 PM
The CIA ought to be abolished simply on the grounds that sept 11 happened and then they asked for more power. That's akin to me saying, "hey boss, sorry, I just burned down the store. I need a raise and a promotion to make sure it doesn't happen again." What would happen? That's right - I'd be fired. It's a pretty simple principle really.
Not that I don't feel there is more than a little truth to some of the speculation. It's just that we don't even NEED that to demand the end of the CIA.
by george
Tuesday Sep 3rd, 2002 11:03 PM
listen to all you idiots supporting the us goverment...did you know that the u.s has a 15 trillion dollar det to pay..no i din't think so...also the oil company's that the u.s survives of off because it's transfered in u.s dollars....oops they just got transfered to euros...the deal is the u.s gov wanted this to happen..why? you say because in order to get there economy back they have to do some serious planning..how??first of the middle east..oil trillions of dollars worth,and they want it..whats the plan?iraq by seeking iraq they can start a war with a reason.. with no complain...george bush not jr is best of pals with..guess who..bin laden's brother..george w bush is also the head of the c.i.a and one of the richest man on earth..din't know that did you...the plan was simple get bin laden's help...get people..brainwash and start some chaos..while george bush jr is in florida relaxing and waiting...oh ya and the al gore vs george bush thing..it was fixed....now someone to blame yes that's it get cnn to report that bin laden did it without evidence...now back to iraq...george bush tried to get as musch as help as they could but in the end everybody backed off...because they would lose the investment and security they had...iraq is the least in terrorsim in the middle east everybody believes that iraq is indeed a savage country..yet children are still dying from the plutonium that the biochemicals had in the gulf war(george bush)iraq has been trying to recover with no help from other countrys(just illegal drugs like opium plantations)...now iraq has lots and lots of resourses like drugs,gold and last but not least oil billions of dollars worth...now as we know it george bush will go for it and start the war..and you idiots will suffer the consequences of tremendous equivalence...i can make a 100 ton napalm bomb in less than a week(internet)...what makes you think they can't do that.. to go crazy and start bombing houses, schools churches ,did you know that there are about 35 000 active terrorist people living in the u.s..don't support shit if your life is gonna be involved for there greedy selfs...i'm not supporting iraq,or any other middle east country.(including israel)but the point is the u.s has to tell itself that there are other options...

everything on what i just told you is indeen all facts..don't believe me do some research and you'll find out...oh and by the way george bush admin is are fasist..welcome back hitler.
by Lucitan
( ila4l [at] hotmail.com ) Wednesday Sep 4th, 2002 8:43 PM
As soon as the second plane hit I was sure as I'm now that the U.S shodow gov.. did it . if enybody knows eny think about numerology and the occul their is on way that they belive the CNN bullshit and Osama(3 names) was,is nothing but a scapegoat.What is sad is that 95% of people belive what they see on TV.
With all the evidece, what are we going to do about it? Nothing ther is nothing the people(sheep) can do about it.
I recomend the film Enemy of the State that was put out in 1998 ,the film has a ton of refrences to 9-11.
by mark
Tuesday Sep 17th, 2002 7:40 PM

by Steph
Sunday Sep 29th, 2002 9:04 AM
All people who believe what these 2 known Bin laden supporters say rape little children.

KILL THEM ALL!
by Andrea Clifton
( aer_dna [at] hotmail.com ) Monday Oct 14th, 2002 9:39 AM
hello i am very interested in the truth behind 9-11. i would like to have the script of the interview from ruppert. however any information you may have pertinent to this issue i would greatly appreciate. i am willing to help you spread your information as you give it to me. thank you very much andrea
by Faihad
Saturday Oct 19th, 2002 5:27 PM
Basically, the US is getting ready for WW3. they're using dirty laundry such as Iraq, and sucking the penises of every Israeli in this world. the fact of the matter is, we've given too much power to the power. Bush is all about oil, what people should know about, is the Unocal 76 deal, two days afterr the regime change in Afghanistan. As well as the taliban destroying the opiates, and America planting them once again once the regime change took place. this county is built on lies, always has been, forever will be...... in god (BUSH JR) we trust..............
by Faihad
Saturday Oct 19th, 2002 5:27 PM
Basically, the US is getting ready for WW3. they're using dirty laundry such as Iraq, and sucking the penises of every Israeli in this world. the fact of the matter is, we've given too much power to the power. Bush is all about oil, what people should know about, is the Unocal 76 deal, two days afterr the regime change in Afghanistan. As well as the taliban destroying the opiates, and America planting them once again once the regime change took place. this county is built on lies, always has been, forever will be...... in god (BUSH JR) we trust..............
by Faihad
Saturday Oct 19th, 2002 5:27 PM
Basically, the US is getting ready for WW3. they're using dirty laundry such as Iraq, and sucking the penises of every Israeli in this world. the fact of the matter is, we've given too much power to the power. Bush is all about oil, what people should know about, is the Unocal 76 deal, two days afterr the regime change in Afghanistan. As well as the taliban destroying the opiates, and America planting them once again once the regime change took place. this county is built on lies, always has been, forever will be...... in god (BUSH JR) we trust..............
by Faihad
Saturday Oct 19th, 2002 5:27 PM
Basically, the US is getting ready for WW3. they're using dirty laundry such as Iraq, and sucking the penises of every Israeli in this world. the fact of the matter is, we've given too much power to the power. Bush is all about oil, what people should know about, is the Unocal 76 deal, two days afterr the regime change in Afghanistan. As well as the taliban destroying the opiates, and America planting them once again once the regime change took place. this county is built on lies, always has been, forever will be...... in god (BUSH JR) we trust..............
by Faihad
Saturday Oct 19th, 2002 5:27 PM
Basically, the US is getting ready for WW3. they're using dirty laundry such as Iraq, and sucking the penises of every Israeli in this world. the fact of the matter is, we've given too much power to the power. Bush is all about oil, what people should know about, is the Unocal 76 deal, two days afterr the regime change in Afghanistan. As well as the taliban destroying the opiates, and America planting them once again once the regime change took place. this county is built on lies, always has been, forever will be...... in god (BUSH JR) we trust..............
by kendra
Sunday Nov 17th, 2002 12:19 AM
you support your government, but its your funeral. your goverment is a bunch of caniving wacko's that only care about money and power.
you're just as bad as they are supporting them. you dont care about the other people and countries that suffer because of your greed. look at it from their view. whether this is all b.s. or not, going to war is not the answer. how can anything be accomplished. sure bush gets to blow up some stuff, what does that do for you? NOTHING!
and you care so much about your government? bush knew and admitted that they knew about the 9-11 attacks before hand. you have the nerve to stand beside them after they've slaughtered their own people! they dont care about you, their people. they care about money. thats all it is. propoganda.
its always about the money. and you as a citizen arent even getting any of it.
i dont see why you find them so admirable.
by Lapis
Thursday Nov 28th, 2002 10:21 AM
This info isn't at all suprising. What is, is how easily the wool is pulled over some people's eyes. The govt. and their corporate supporters have been manipulating popular opinion for decades. There's more to the 9-11 story that meets the eye. Some people take the carefully derived propoganda that is dealt out by the media, as the gospel. Having worked in the media myself for many years I can attest that the public is being misled and manipulated on an ongoing basis. If you try to air a news story that exposes any wrong doings by corporations, they pull funding of advertising. In affect, the media prostitutes itself to vested interests meaning, even the news is an advertisement. People would do well to read Dr. Leonard Horowitzes books because their is alot of hard evidence in them exposing how corporations and govt. officials work together for their own gain.
I have seen it first hand many times so its not conspiracy theory to me. Its fact.
by M Fitz
Friday Jan 17th, 2003 5:02 AM

Hello all,

What to believe .. isn't that the question?
What is the truth?

Look at the assassination of John F. Kennedy. Some would say the JFK questions have all been answered correctly. Have they really and who knows for sure?

The CIA -- Quite a history!

So we are to believe that the CIA did not know that 9/11 was going to to take place.

It is very hard for me to believe they (the cia) didn't know anything about any of it. Did they get caught with their pants down? What about the Oklahoma bombing .. did they get caught with them down in that situation too?

I don't believe any single indivdual, governmental agency, or administration has that amount of continuous power. Power to do such evil deeds (JFK and etc) and then cover them up if need be. This kind of super-omnipotence can only reside solely with the Power Elite.

Is this just part of a bigger plan and business as usual?

Many have said: "Follow the oil, follow the money, follow the players and follow the bodies to find the truth".

According to author A. Ralph Epperson and others, the objectives of the decades-old educational master plan is to be carried out.

The Power Elite - A decision is made and the orders given .. The war machine gears into motion.

Always seek truth .. you may find it !






by Miguel Shizamura
( Kan_sai2 [at] yahoo.ca ) Sunday Feb 9th, 2003 5:01 PM
Beware of the man who calls you a wacko! It is not that they are dangerous to you or threaten your family in a menacing way. It is the spreading of discension and doubt of another person's opinion that smells of an uneducated, profoundly infilitrated individual. Who got to your way of thinking and what is their purpose? I am extremely leery of those supposed scholars that attack a person's ideas, suppositions with scaffing harsh words largely unfounded or smokescreened insinuations. They tend to take on a pathetic quality that reeks of stupidity in the purest sense!
by Rivv Seqoia
( 23butterflygs [at] aaroncarter.com ) Thursday Feb 20th, 2003 8:29 AM
I have a comment about the whole September thing. Everywhere you look we're blameing somebody else. You see it's mostly our ault. Now, don't start thinking bad things about me. not yet anyways. let me finninsh. Our problem is that we don't listen. Baisicly, anyone under the occupation of senetor isan't worth listening to. Wrongo. Some people sent stuuf to our president waring him about 9/11, but did he listen? nope. some people sent stuff to president about an possible attack from japan. what happend? Pearl Harbor happened. Why can't we just listen to each other? If we can't be kind to each other, and listen to each other here, how can we expect to know what's right or wrong for another country? How dare we tell other people how to solve their problems when we can't even solve our own? We need to think before we act. ' A 10 yr. old runs away because the kids on the bus make fun of him. A sensitive 9th grader flips out because a gruop of self rising girl decide to throw her to the wolves. we tell our selves that it takes more than that to send someone to the edge. maybe so, maybe not. but there are NO erasers. That mean comment that you say to somone just might be the last thing that they ever here. The world would be a better place if you would just shut-up, and listen. Think about it. Give me your comments. I'll try to reply. No promises tho. Sometimes I'm, buisy. But I will read them.
by David Howard
( fiat [at] sofnet.com ) Monday Jun 2nd, 2003 5:28 PM
Lee Hamilton...October Surprise cover-up conspirator.

Lee Hamilton...9/11 cover-up conspirator.

Google and type in "Operation Ringwind"
by Vinny Wyte
( sakchili [at] yahoo.com ) Thursday Nov 4th, 2004 2:03 AM
Bush, 9-11, and globle warming are intertwined, in other words, connected. August 12th, of 2001, President Bush was breifed by intellagence in not only the F.B.I but the CIA as well on knowledge of "possible" attacks. Prior to that, knowing the impending devestation that globle warming would have on limiting the limited natural resources, the Bush Administration planned to invade Afghanistan and take over a major oil pipeline. Thus, to benefit the Untied States once we have hit the criticle stages of globle warming. This would explain why the warning from top intellegance officials one three seperate occasions was ignored. Giving Bush the reason to invade Afghanistan then on to Iraq to aquire oil, after at the expense of hundreds of innocent people taken when the attacks were carried out allowing the invasion of these countries under the false pretense "homeland security". Peak Oil, mad cow, and September 11th - connecting the dots
INDEX


Peak Oil, mad cow, and September 11th - connecting the dots


Why is there no public debate concerning the issue of 'peak Oil', in particular when 'Peak Oil' helps explain why the American government is establishing bases in the Caucusus (the largest untapped petroleum reserves in the world) and why they were planning a war over a petroleum pipe line through AFghanistan in the months prior to 911, and why they are now in Iraq?

One thing to keep in mind here is the fragility of a modern market based economy. Everything is done to maintain 'consumer confidence' with that 'confidence index' being one of the most watched indicators...the current economic system is so fragile that it literally needs to commit suicide tommorrow in order to keep the cycle of consumption of products going today...the world is thus locked into a vicious circle...

another good example of the same sort of thing is the interest of the airline industries and so called 'intelligence failures' of 9-11. One good example of this sort of thing appeared on the WSWS site titled 'Cover up and conspriracy of 9-11' where we read...

The Bush administration has been plunged into a major political crisis following press reports that Bush was briefed on the danger of a terrorist attack involving the hijacking of US airliners more than a month before September 11. Despite the warning, delivered in an intelligence briefing last August, the White House took no action to forestall the deadliest terrorist action in US history, or to warn the public.

Several senators, Republicans as well as Democrats, said the revelations about advance warnings raised the issue of whether the September 11 attacks could have prevented, saving thousands of lives. Senator John McCain, Arizona Republican and former candidate for the Republican presidential nomination, said,
by chromski
( nitrogasm [at] tcq.net ) Monday Dec 13th, 2004 7:22 PM
Why do the conservatives refuse to believe the evidence before their eyes.? Why do they choose to live in denial?

These will be the people who go crazy when the revolution comes. because nothing is getting done to stop it.

The super rich are taking this country down because they are only loyal to their god of money. nothing else matters to them.
by liar
Monday Mar 21st, 2005 1:44 PM
cant see the vidio, says page is unavaible :\\
by stine
( dudenes [at] hotmail.com ) Saturday Aug 13th, 2005 7:34 AM
it s well known that the carlylegroup was busy creating buisnes by creating a new annnemy after the cold war..
thetheories that israelisch are behind the 911 attack,and us weapon and oil barons taking care od sponsering a war for life..global...it s obvious who is binnifitting from the situation they created by now.. worldchaos.. terroism.. was nt el qauda trained by us.. isnt the el q.handbook not 80%us made.. didnt they learn the (sub) world how to create terror to gain democarzy or buisnescontracts...dont we know that pappa bush is in buisnes with bin ladens for a long time..the bion ladens left the country(all of them) before 911..us governement coorporated big time...the bushes and the saoudies are big friends..and bush.. well ,he might not be the antichrist but he s a tool of evil forces..together with all his sick mates..polical coruption was never so big and seen as now in the states...and the global effect ...call it a www3...it will take a long time to "find" all terrorists when u create them urself by ignorence and arrogance..my dissapointment in us people...is huge...no revolution.. nobody knows or want to know...knowbody tells.. especially foxchannel...you l be blind watching that all ur life...bush its puppets are all over by now.. and the world really thinks that terror is the big thread now...but who s creating the source that ...that people believe in fighting this war of poverty of minds.. both side..who was the agressor again..who wants to know..telling tyhe true makes you a terrorist.. or listed...so watch out what to believe and where the enemy might be listening to your tunes... were all in great danger..especially us focks are troubled.. even they dont know.. it s all sad but intreging..halleluja..thanks for the great lines..
by Selamat Jarin
( embryo_eater [at] yahoo.com ) Sunday May 21st, 2006 4:55 PM
I see a few refuters, for want of a better term, have noted that its one thing to question whats going on, but that these questioners are providing no answers in turn. This, therefore, is an answer. I had 14 years worth of Philosophical and Psychological study to be able to understand, appreciate and accept this answer, which is, for myself, accepted truth. I realise those without a similar background will simply be unable to digest this, especially as its an exetremely abridged version. But, I post this anyway to simply say, there are alternate answers....

Background.

When Atlantis sunk beneath the waves following a global war, a race of Aliens intervened into human affairs. They raped human DNA leading to a loss of full consciousness, making human beings exemtremely ignorant, and extremely manipulable. They did so because these Aliens feed off the frequency ranges that we [humans] experience as fear/terror. From that point forward, this race of Aliens have manipulated human affairs down the ages to creae events (wars, catastrophes) that have generated large pools of fear and terror in the populace, and have employ technologies to gather up those energies and use as their food source. Controlling Earth has had other uses for them, but control and manipulation of human consciousness has been the grand prize.


Its relevance to 9-11

During the time of this control, other more benevolent Alien races observed what was going on here. Karmic law prevented them from coming to our aid, until now. For quite sometime there has been a war being fought between the Aliens who have humans enslaved (The Annunaki) and the Aliens benevolent towards the human race (chief amongst which are the Sirians). In the mid 1990s, the Annunaki *saw the game was up* and switched to the Light, abandoning Earth and, more importantly for this discussion, leaving their Earth minnions behind with remnants of their technology. These human lackeys found themselves in a bind, and decided to fill the void left by the Annunaki. So they set their sights on taking control of the world's biggest superpower, the United States.

1 rigged election later, they then decided on creating an event that would allow them to begin to erode this Superpower's constitution and impliment *legally* their Fascist leaning ways, their version of the Reichstag Fire. Naturally, having the ability to employ terrestrial technologies meant their *Reichstag Fire* was going to be a lot more sophisticated than anything the Nazis could manage. For instance, Alien holographic technology could be used to disguise material objects and make them appear to be something other than they really are. technology so sophisticated that witnesses up close cannot discriminate the difference between an actual object, and something being projected into reality by this technology. So in the instance of 9-11, you have what you THINK are planes crashing into the Towers, what you THINK is plane debris on the ground.

I'll give them credit, it was one hell of a magic show these criminals put on.

Thats the tip of the iceberg, its short for the purposes of what is here, but I think its succinct enough. Go learn about Sirians, the Annunaki, what it is to have your kundalini rise and attain full/enlightened consciousness, where you realise your body is simply a vessel, not the be all and end all of your existence.

As for our benevolent Alien friends, they could be any day now (only the last vestiges of Human Karma delay First Contact), so while you think I'm a nut now, just remember this post when the shit hits the fan - not all of us will be suprised THAT day.

One last thing,

fuck you George Bush.
by gojim
Friday Mar 2nd, 2007 1:04 PM
Yes, but i do not believe you ...you are probably liar ...
by P O Neill
Friday Jun 6th, 2008 8:59 AM
the I.R.A (not the ones you've heard about on tv)who recently trained the hesbollah quiet successfully and who's intelligence networks r by far the most advanced in the world having risin through the ranks of every top army from fighting the romans to being higher in rank to napoleon in the french army that time for example and were responsible 4 placing JFK in the whitehouse .. till the republicans shot him(that was 100 years of planning) etc ..etc... knew about the masionic plans 2 attack their own tradecentre and warned the east that the propaganda machine was coming back to them which can only mean pain 4 their people ...even from word passed down through generations of tipperary people (mainly upperchurch) these events today in the world don't suprise anyone there. such revolutionaries as Ned an Cnoic,Oliver Harty, Dan Breen, Jack Harty, Michael Ryan (even Ned Kelly is from there off the point). All of whom inspired che gevara and incidently was trained by people from there. When a superpower, after a lot of years starts to believe their own propaganda bullshit about the country they are discrediting, they get a rude awakening when they realize they r up against a superior collective mind and culture. thats why the us and britian get slagged in the world 4 being thick fuckers because they continue their genocide in the world due to their obvious I.Q. inferiority complex. and that is the pattern that will always continue we can keep them at bay but they still seep through the cracks.