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Indybay Feature

Apartheid Israel

by repost
The whole world recognizes and acknowledges that Zionism is racism and that Israel has a racist, anti-democratic, apartheid regime... that is except for American Zionists and their supporters.
“If It Walks Like a Duck…”: The Racism of Zionism
By Donald Neff

You don’t need to see racism to recognize it. Unlike porngraphy, which often is in the eye of the beholder, racism in nations is self-evident. It comes in the form of a constitution, the laws that a nation adopts and the behavior of its citizens toward minorites. Yet the United States failed to recognize racism when the American delegation walked out of the recent U.N. World Conference Against Racism in sympathy with Israel. Significantly, it was the only country in the world to do so.

What is it that the rest of the world sees when it looks at Israel that Washington doesn’t? Other nations note that Israel has no constitution. But it has a body of what are called “Basic Laws” that serve the purpose of a constitution. Among these laws are a number of statutes that enshrine exclusive rights for Jews above all other religions and peoples living in the state.

One such law is the Right of Return, granting any Jew—but no one else—automatic Israeli citizenship. It was passed in 1950 by the Knesset, Israel’s parliament, in which there are few non-Jews beyond token members of minor minorities.

In the words of Israel’s first prime minister, David Ben-Gurion: “This is not only a Jewish state, where the majority of the inhabitants are Jews, but a state for all Jews, wherever they are, and for every Jew who wants to be here....This right is inherent in being a Jew.”1

Another of the Basic Laws is one defining Israel citizenship, passed by the Knesset in 1952. It is the Law of Citizenship, sometimes called the Nationality Law. It set citizenship rules so stringently against non-Jews that many Palestinian residents of Israel (stuck there when Israel captured their land in 1948) were denied citizenship even though their families had lived in Palestine for many generations.

In fact, the law was so restrictive against granting citizenship to goyim—a Hebrew term to define all non-Jews—that it caused concern among some Jewish communities outside of Israel. Irving M. Engel, president of the American Jewish Committee, later met with Ben-Gurion and urged him to have the law changed. Engel said he was embarrassed by the restrictive nature of the law, since his organization had crusaded throughout the world for equal treatment of Jews. Now, he added, when Jews got their own their country they were discriminating against non-Jews. Ben-Gurion rejected any changes to the Nationality Law.2

In the same year, 1952, the Knesset passed the World Zionist Organization-Jewish Agency (Status) Law, which legalized special economic, political and social benefits for Israeli Jews. It gave exclusive rights not to all citizens of Israel but to Israelis of “Jewish nationality,” including the right to purchase land. Jewish institutions such as the Jewish National Fund were prohibited by law to sell the land they owned in Israel—some 97 percent—to non-Jews and were enjoined to hold all land “for the whole Jewish people.”

Israel is a democracy for Jews only.

Racism has many other manifestations in Israel beyond official statutes. Most notable of these prejudicial practices is the ban against Palestinians serving in the Israel Defense Forces. Even though Palestinians make up nearly 20 percent of Israel’s population—a larger minority than blacks in America—they are left in the paradoxical position of being denied the basic duty of protecting what is supposedly their country.

Palestinians never gain entry to the higher levels of the Israeli government. There has never been a Palestinian cabinet minister, much less a prime minister or a minister of foreign affairs. Their cities and towns receive nowhere near the financial aid from the central government that their Jewish counterparts receive, nor do their educational and health systems. Needless to say, the quality of life of the average Palestinian citizen of Israel is far lower than that of Jewish “nationals.”

By any definition of racism, Israel qualifies. Its laws and practices define it as exclusionary and for Jews only. While Israel most certainly is a democracy, it is a democracy for Jews only. Goyim are not welcome or accepted as equals.

Palestinians are at best second-class citizens, casualties of a bloody history that left them stranded inside what became Israel. In fact, all non-Jews, whether Palestinians or American Christians, are discouraged from living in Israel. Marriage between a Jew and a non-Jew cannot be performed there. Nor is religious tolerance exactly a hallmark of Israel’s democracy. From time to time Israel’s Knesset has passed laws against proselytizing by Christians, decreeing prison terms for both the converted and the conveter.

Given this reality, it was hypocritical in the extreme for the U.S. to thumb its nose at the World Conference Against Racism. Surely this country, as one of the world’s few true democracies, has a duty to stand up against racism wherever it sees it. Instead it brusquely quit the conference in September as a show of solidarity with Israel’s walkout.

Israeli Apartheid

Secretary of State Colin Powell specifically cited as one of the reasons for the U.S. action the charge by some non-Jewish delegates that “apartheid exists in Israel.”3 How could they say otherwise? Anyone who has ever visited Israel knows that apartheid is alive and well in the Jewish state. What else is the cruel Israeli military occupation and isolation of three million Palestinians—complete with travel permits, checkpoints, “whites-only” neighborhoods and other former trademarks of South Africa?

Powell also complained that delegates regarded “Zionism as racism.”4 But, by its own definition, Zionism is racist. How could it be otherwise? Zionism is specifically for Jews, excluding all others, so by its very nature it is racist. What else could it mean when Jews proudly proclaim Israel is a Jewish state? They mean goyim are not wanted.

What could Secretary of State Powell have been thinking when he uttered these absurd justifications for leaving the conference? Surely it wasn’t reality. His charge that Israel was being unfairly discriminated against lost any trace of credibility when not one of the other 163 nations in the world followed Washington’s lead, not even such traditional allies as Britain or France.

In fact, after the United States and Israel quit the conference the remaining delegates—i.e., the rest of the world—went on formally to express their concern about the “plight of the Palestinians under foreign occupation.” Israel and the United States were left standing alone, in shame.

In the end Powell and his boss, President George W. Bush, sacrificed an important international conference to pander to Zionists and their powerful American political lobby. In the process they besmirched their own reputations and that of their nation.



Footnotes:

1Sachar, Howard, A History of Israel, p. 383.

2New York Times, 6/24/57.

3Colin Powell, State Department release, 9/3/01.

4Ibid.

Donald Neff is the author of the Warriors trilogy and 50 Years of Israel, available from the AET Book Club, and of Fallen Pillars.
by guy
most of the things your said is based on false ideas. you should really learn the history of israel before you criticize us. here is an idea. better read about the holocaust
by ................
good article, I think it interesting that Palestinians are excluded from military service.
by You are SO wrong
As for the holocaust, have you read The Holocaust Industry by Norman Finkelstein?
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com

Also you might want to read stuff at http://www.cactus48.com
by botha
The Israeli/Palestinian situation differs in so many ways from the apartheid of South Africa. The most glaring is that the apartheid of SA was a seperation of blacks and whites within the borders of South Africa. The Palestininas do not live within the borders of Israel. I don't believe any country makes claim to the West Bank or Gaza, so essentially the Palestinians live on land that is not claimed by any soverign nation. The blacks of SA lived on land claimed by the Government of SA. Now if the Palestinians lived within the borders of Israel, and were being treated in the same manner as the blacks in SA were treated by the whites, then you have a parallel. But the situations are not the same.
by ............
"The Israeli/Palestinian situation differs in so many ways from the apartheid of South Africa. The most glaring is that the apartheid of SA was a seperation of blacks and whites within the borders of South Africa. "

Absolutely and completely wrong. The main effort and policy of apartheid was to remove all blacks from South Africa and place them in small separate states known as "homelands" complete with govt, border checks, passports, etc.

This was in fact the entire aim of apartheid.
by dasa
The Palestinians cannot be removed from a State of which they were never a citizen. This is not the same as the blacks in SA who lived within the borders of the country.
by stop the disinformation!
The Palestinians are the INDIGENOUS people of Palestine-Israel, whether or not they were "citizens" of some Westernized idea of a proper country with precise borders. The Palestinians homeland is Palestine (Israel). DUH. They have been living there for hundreds, even over a thousand years.
Listen, ETHNIC CLEANSING CAN NEVER BE JUSTIFIED!
Check out http://www.cactus48.com if you haven't already for the real deal.
by f-cactus48
I don't care how long they lived there. If they can't defend the land, they lose it. Simple as that.
by ............
"I don't care how long they lived there. If they can't defend the land, they lose it. Simple as that."

Tell it to Europe in 1940.
by saracen
I beg to differ with the above. In case the prevelance of myopia is indeed as high it appears in the previous comments, there is a 20% palestinian minority that does in fact hold Israeli nationality. It is those that are descriminated against. The other Palestinians living under Israeli OCCUPATION are not descriminated against. That would be far too soft a language for it. To describe it adequately would be a mere excercise in the pejorative.

As for the comment about losing the land if it cannot be defended, I think our learned colleague would best go back to braying on some manure fertilized pasture. The stench of one would be indistiguishable from the other.
by dyacda
>>I don't care how long they lived there. If they can't defend the land, they lose it. Simple as that.<<"

>Tell it to Europe in 1940.<


Got no problem telling that to Europe 1940. Do you? If anyone understands it, they certainly do. When Germany rolled in, you lost your land. When the allies fought and got it back, then Germany didn't control it anymore. Maybe you gained control of it back, maybe you didn't. That's the way it fucking is.

Here's a better one to tell it to, or rather, they would get in your face, and after they spit into it, tell you. Tell it to Russia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Belarus, Georgia, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Moldavia, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, and Tajikistan. Ask them how the Soviets swallowed them. Ask those from the former East Germany, Poland, Czechoslavakia, Hungary, the former Yogoslavia, Bulgaria, and Romania, all Soviet Bloc countries. Ask them about defending the land and what happens if you don't. The land belongs to those who can conquer and defend it. You seem to have a problem understanding that, piss boy. Why is that, piss boy? Why you so fucking stupid, piss boy? The land belongs to those who can conquer and defend it. Repeat that, piss boy, until it sinks into that fucking mush you call your mind.
by Saracen
I think we will have more than one donkey on that field... That something happens does not make it right. Dyacda, the violence you do to the concept of Justice is egregious. As to the violence you do to the art of communication, that I am afraid, is lethal.
by siada
You just don't like the fact that what I speak about is the way it is and the way it has always been. To the victor goes the spoils. Nobody said it was pretty. Nobody said it was fair. That's just how things work here on the third rock from the sun. And have for thousands of years before you and I were ever born. And will continue for thousands of years after you and I and everyone else here are pushing up daiseys. You want a peaceful solution to the Israeli/Palestinian problem? I do. I certainly hope they can work something out. But I believe its going to come to blows. And afterwards, for a time, there will be peace. That's how it works.
by ..........
Well, lets stop funding Israel then. No more American toys. To the victor go the spoils .... as you say, its not a moral thing, its just fucking reality. No more taxpayer money for welfare-boy Sharon.
By the way, if you have to call names like "piss boy" you belong in a schoolyard. Deal with it and get back there where you belong, child.
by kduh
"lets stop funding Israel then"

What's this "let's" shit!?! Fuck off kanaDUHan piss boy!!!!!! Canadians got nothing to say regarding how the USA determines its foreign policy. You got your own problems in KanaDUH piss boy. Clean out your own closet first.
by .............
We fund Israel too ... and I've got every right to criticize your country, you spend enough time criticizing mine! Anyway. If you want to get into name calling, you fucking wet little shitsack that never should have slithered out of your heavy mother's womb, I suggest you learn how.
by idiot
"Canadians got nothing to say regarding how the USA determines its foreign policy"

It would probably solve alot of our social problems in the US if they did, as was shown by Michael Moore in Bowling for Columbine. The stats alone show they've got the US beat on treating each other with respect, rather than murder as a policy for every situation.

Furthermore, look at the US's recent response to Venezuela - while Canada immediately come out against a coup government, in support of a democratically elected government, the US came out calling for early elections, which is against their constitution. Then Bush had to back pedal and Ari the Liar made excuses.

I'm guessing you've never even been to Canada. The first thing I noticed was how much cleaner it is than the US.
by ...
I'm a citizen of this country. Please explain to me why I should keep paying for Israel so that it can go on stealing Palestinian land.

Could it be because people like you get free land in the deal? What's in it for the rest of us other than resentment and anger from a good portion of the world's population for subsidizing Occupation and land grabs. Why should we go on paying for Israel's ass? Please explain.
by da
Then let me help boot your ass back over the border. Here's some IMC's for you to hang out and and complain about Israel to your fellow Canucks.

Canada: calgary hamilton maritimes montreal ontario québec thunder bay vancouver victoria windsor

I've never critized Canada. I could care less about Canada. You got no right to critize anyone except Canada. A Canadian critizing the USA is gonna fall of deaf ears, cause we in general don't give a flying shit what you fuckers think or even IF you fuckers think. Piss boy!
by ..........
"I've never critized Canada. I could care less about Canada."

Good for you, here's a cookie.




1 cookie
by us-of-a--holes
"we in general don't give a flying shit what you fuckers think or even IF you fuckers think."

Gee, wonder why they HATE us all over the world? We treat everyone so nicely, and yet, still, everyone hates us. I can't understand it. Strange.

Guess we better just nuke the world to solve our problems. That'll show those terrorists and Canadians!

Better still, maybe you should go and get your hormone shot - I think you're due for it.
by .............
"everyone hates us"

http://zapatopi.net/afdb.html
http://www.nysun.com/sunarticle.asp?artID=421

MONDAY, DECEMBER 23, 2002

Jews and Christians Are Apes and Pigs, Saudi Textbooks Say

‘There Is A Jew Behind Me, Come and Kill Him!’

BY DAVID TWERSKY

- Following a lesson on the monotheistic faiths, Saudi Arabian schoolchildren are asked to discuss “With what types of weapons should Muslims arm themselves against the Jews?” That question is part of an official textbook for 8th grade students which also emphasizes that “Jews and Christians were cursed by Allah and turned into apes and pigs,” and that “The hour [the Day of Judgment] will not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them.”
The content of the Saudi school curriculum has been the focus of mounting scrutiny ever since it was disclosed that 15 of the 19 terrorists who hijacked the four airplanes on September 11, 2001 were Saudi citizens.

Saudi officials insist their nation cannot be blamed for having produced an overwhelming majority of the September 11 perpetrators and for the consequences of promoting a radical version of Islam all over the globe.

But a starkly different view emerges from a preliminary report on Saudi schoolbooks released by the Washington, D.C.,-based Middle East Media Research Institute, which specializes in providing translations of Arabic, Farsi, and Hebrew media.

In the aftermath of 9/11, attention is being drawn to the global reach of the SAUDI continued from page 1

Saudi educational effort aimed at promoting its particular version of Islam.

The report cites a book published in 1995 by the Saudi Cultural Mission, “Education in Saudi Arabia,” which explains that Saudi education policy is based on the uncompromising and anti-modern fundamentalist teachings of the 18th century Sheikh Muhammad Ibn Abd Al-Wahhab.

According to the MEMRI report, the March 1, 2002, edition of Ayn-Al-Yaqeen, a weekly news magazine published online by the Saudi royal family, the Kingdom has committed “many billions of Saudi riyals” to building schools around the world. The article claims “some 210 Islamic centers wholly or partly financed by Saudi Arabia, more than 1,500 mosques and 202 colleges and almost 2,000 schools for educating Muslim children in non-Islamic countries in Europe, North and South America, Australia, and Asia.”

A document published by the Saudi Higher Committee for Educational Policy contains 236 principles that exhort students to “promote loyalty to Islam by denouncing any system or theory that conflicts with Islamic law.” Students are also taught “to plant and spread Islam throughout the world,” and “to fight spiritually and physically for the sake of Allah.”

From an early age, schoolchildren are taught about “Jihad for the sake of Allah.” A textbook for 8th graders instructs students that according to the prophet Muhammad, “Jihad for the sake of Allah” ranks third as a “labor…most favored by Allah” following “Prayers on time,” and “love thy parents.”

MEMRI reports that “the textbook interprets the conversation between the prophet and his companion as follows: the most important activity is Jihad for the sake of Allah and the convocation of Allah’s religion on this earth.”

By ninth grade, students are ready for “The Promise of the Stone and the Tree” — the story of Abu Hurayra, one of the prophet’s companions who quoted the prophet as saying: “The hour [the Day of Judgment] will not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them. A Jew will [then] hide behind a rock or a tree, and the rock or tree will call upon the Muslim: ‘O Muslim, O slave of Allah! There is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!’ — except for the gharqad tree, for it is one of the trees of the Jews.”

Since September 11, Saudi officials are increasingly sensitive to criticism of their culture and educational system. In an October 21, interview, Adel al-Jubeir, foreign policy advisor to Saudi Arabia’s Crown Prince Adbullah, argued that blaming the Saudi education system for producing 15 of the September 11 hijackers was the equivalent of faulting Harvard for having instructed “the Unabomber.”

Mr. al-Jubeir also said Islamic terrorists no more belong to the Saudi mainstream than “Timothy McVeigh represents America.”

But in Saudi Arabia, speaking in Arabic, leaders appear to be more supportive, and unashamed of the status quo. One religious leader, Sheikh Majed Abd Al-Rahman Al-Firian, told worshippers at Riyadh’s Suleiman Bin Muqiran mosque: “Muslims must... educate their children to Jihad. This is the greatest benefit of the situation: educating the children to Jihad and to hatred of the Jews, the Christians, and the infidels; educating the children to Jihad and to revival of the embers of Jihad in their souls. This is what is needed now...”

Still, the cognitive dissonance between their insular system and the wave of post September 11 criticism has led to a defensive attitude. Officials regularly blame problems in the Saudi-America relationship on American Jews. And the Minister of the Interior, Prince Naif Ibn Abd Al-Aziz, blames the September 11 attacks on Israel.

In an interview in the Saudi-owned London daily Al-Sharq Al-Awsat, Mr. Al-Aziz asked, and answered, his own question. “We put big question marks and ask who committed the events of September 11 and who benefited from them. Who benefited from events of 11/9? I think they [the Zionists] are behind these events.’”

Mr. Naif also stressed that Saudi ties to the American government were “strong” notwithstanding the best efforts of “the Zionist-controlled media that manipulated the events of September 11 and turned the U.S. public opinion against Arabs and Islam.”

Mr. Naif further said, “I cannot still believe that 19 youths, including 15 Saudis, carried out the September 11 attacks with the support of bin Laden and his Al Qaeda organization. It’s impossible. I will not believe that these people have the power to do so horrendous an attack.”

The interior minister also made clear that the Kingdom’s 50,000 plus religious leaders at mosques throughout the country toe the official line. “If they deviate from this line and persist doing so, they will have to find other jobs.”
by Honesty
http://www.hillsdale.edu/newimprimis/2002/October/default.htm

October Imprimis

Will Morrisey , Assistant Professor of Politicial Science, Hillsdale College

To think about Islam, we find ourselves first of all engaged in the question of what Islam is. To be entitled to an independent view, one would need a mastery of the principal Islamic texts in their original language. Neither I, nor (to my knowledge) anyone else associated with this college, claims such authority. So how are we to try to think about Islam? Blocked from the deepest inquiry, we must think primarily as informed citizens, as most of us will never be Islamic scholars. As citizens, we must think politically. To think politically, we must think in terms of regimes. Regimes are the primary frame of reference for the political thinker.

What is a regime? That question, I can answer. A regime is the most authoritative form of ruling in a political community. To determine what regime rules in such a community, you need to know three things.

First, who rules there? What persons are in charge, and how many of them are there – one, few, or many? What kind of persons are they? What is their character?

Second, how do these persons rule? By what institutional structures? Do the rulers rule through parliaments and courts? Or through armies and secret police?

Finally, what way of life prevails in the country? What are the habits of the heart of the people who live there? For example, many of you were struck, as I was, by a film aired a few months ago on an Arab television network. In this film, a three-year-old girl was asked, “What are the Jews?” “The Jews,” she answered dutifully, “are apes and pigs.” It is fair to say that this catechism of contempt is not a habit of the heart publicly honored in commercial republican regimes – whether their peoples are Muslim as in Turkey, Jewish as in Israel, or predominantly Christian as in America.

Islamism, as distinct from Islam, is the blend of Muslim law and the principles of radical modernity, characterized by terrorism and culminating in theocratic tyranny. Islamists must target Americans and Jews – that is, the West generally – because the commercial republics represented by Americans and Jews hold up an understanding of the good for human beings that is antithetical to their own.

When George Washington wrote to the Newport Synagogue, in the letter quoted this week by Prime Minister Bhutto, he told those Jews that they enjoyed the free exercise of religion in America, not on the basis of mere toleration, but on the basis of natural right – the right to life in the fullest sense. In contrast, the Islam of the Islamists, and even the Islam of the shar’ia – the Islamic law – offers Jews and Christians toleration, not on the basis of the natural right to life, but on the basis of the right to kill. That is, in the status of dhimmitude, non-Muslims may live only on condition of strict subordination, enforceable by death. Exclusion from citizenship is the price of survival. A full life may only be lived if you believe rightly, and not because, as a human being, you are entitled to such a life, regardless of your religious beliefs.

This regime conflict has now become urgent because Tocqueville was right about the modern world. In 1836, he predicted that the decline of the old aristocracies, the mastery of nature by technology, and the rise of statism left two stark possibilities for modern man: the commercial republicanism seen in America or the despotism then seen in Russia. World history since that time has been a struggle between commercial republicanism and tyranny in its many forms.

In confronting the regimes of terror and tyranny, whether secular or religious, we sometimes hear the objection, “One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter.” Empirically speaking, this is quite true. But let’s follow that line of thought to the end: It is equally empirically true that one man’s freedom is another man’s slavery. What Osama bin Laden calls freedom is tyranny to Milton Friedman, and vice-versa. By the same token, we’ve seen that one man’s man is another man’s ape or pig. While Dr. Friedman may be a man to us, to that Muslim three-year-old and her educators he is an animal, and deserves to be treated as an animal.

So the real question is, which are we? Will we acquiesce in being classified as apes or pigs? Will we acquiesce if others are? Will we accept the consequences of such classification, consequences we all see very plainly?

As Americans, we are now involved in a geopolitical struggle between regimes, one an empire of liberty, another a nascent empire of tyranny. Like all past tyrants – King George in 1776, the slaveholders of 1860, the militarists of 1914, the communists and fascists who emerged from the ashes of that Great War – our enemies expect us to be cowardly, decadent, foolish and bourgeois. I rather expect that, like those earlier Americans, we will disappoint them. Indeed, I expect that we will defeat them.
by Jesus




O little town of Bethlehem, how still we see thee lie!
Above thy deep and dreamless sleep the silent stars go by.
Yet in thy dark streets shineth the everlasting Light;
The hopes and fears of all the years are met in thee tonight.


http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/o/l/olittle.htm

http://www.herald.ns.ca/stories/2002/12/17/fOpinion131.raw.html

The Halifax Herald Limited

Tuesday, December 17, 2002

Racism rears its xenophobic head

By Paul Schneidereit

RACISM IS, in its purest form, always ugly to behold.

"The Jews damn near owned all of Germany prior to the war. That's how Hitler came in. He was going to make damn sure that the Jews didn't take over Germany or Europe. That's why he fried six million of those guys, you know. Jews would have owned the goddamned world. And look what they're doing. They're killing people in Arab countries."

So says 68-year-old David Ahenakew, former chief of the Assembly of First Nations and the Federation of Saskatchewan Indian Nations, a decorated Korean War veteran and an Order of Canada recipient in 1978 for his commitment to the advancement of Indian rights.

Ahenakew made those comments to a reporter after a 45-minute rambling speech to an assembly of native leaders in Saskatoon on Friday, in which he apparently attacked Jews and Asians, blaming the former for starting the Second World War. He was then asked to clarify some of his statements.

"How do you get rid of a disease like that, that's going to take over, that's going to dominate?" he asked the Saskatoon Star-Phoenix reporter.

"All I know is what the Germans told me. Of course I believe them. I saw the Jews kill people in Egypt when I was there. The Palestinians, Arabs."

Let him explain further.

"I don't support Hitler. But he cleaned up a hell of a lot of things, didn't he? You would be owned by the Jews right now the world over. Look, a small, little country (Israel) like that and everyone supports them. Who the hell owns many of the banks in the States, many of the corporations? Look at here in Canada. Izzy Asper (chair of CanWest Global). He controls the media. What the hell does that tell you? That's power.

"The hell with the Jews. I can't stand them. And that's it. I don't want to talk about them."

Ahenakew later - while admitting he made the comments - said they were "exaggerated." The news report I read didn't explain what he meant. Did HE exaggerate? Did the media, by reporting them? No answers.

Not surprisingly, the Canadian Jewish Congress has called on the police to launch a hate-crimes investigation and also suggested Ahenakew's removal from the Order of Canada.

Other native leaders have distanced themselves from Ahenakew's views and said they wish to reassure Canada's Jewish community.

Indian Affairs Minister Robert Nault has demanded he explain himself. "If not, we have to think that he believes these blatantly racist comments."

Well, of course he believes them. Why else would he say them? To win friends and influence people?

Ahenakew's small-minded rant briefly exposed, for all to see, the ugly - and non-mainstream - current of anti-Semitism that today exists, to some degree, in almost all nations worldwide, including Canada.

The League for Human Rights of B'nai Brith Canada reports that in the first six months of 2002, anti-Semitic incidents of harassment and violence in Canada rose 63 per cent from the same period a year earlier - 197 incidents versus 121 in 2001. This after a 35-per-cent increase in anti-Semitic incidents in the five years leading up to 2001.

The ultimate irony, of course, is that as Ahenakew lashed out at Jews, and condemned whites and other non-natives as "goddamned immigrants," he lamented the level of bigotry that native children often face in city schools.

The racist's world is a simpler - though often far angrier - place. No sense trying to deal with the subtle challenging complexities of reality when it's all "their" fault anyway. Or we know, and usually have been taught, that we're better than "them," whether "they" are white, black or Asian, Muslim, Christian or Jew.

Racists don't want to defend the logic of their beliefs. Questioning them makes them angry. Why? Because there is no defensible logic. Because then their entire make-believe world of good versus bad guys might start to crumble into the nonsensical pieces that it's built upon.

Ahenakew's ignorant, hateful tirade has already tarnished him forever in the eyes of right-thinking Canadians of all races and religions - whether he loses his Order of Canada or not.
by pinay
The Jews are the indigenous people of palestine and have been for 3500 years
by Gunter
The Vanguard News Network and Indymedia are the two best sites on the web for reading up on the latest Jew-hate literature.
by Me
"The simple solution would be to impose the same restrictions on jews living outside of israel that the jews impose upon the Arabs. Prohibition of jews owning land outside of israel would be a reasonable place to start as the jews deny that right to Arabs living in "the jews' country.""

This is realllllly funny.

Jews aren't allowed to be citizens in Jordan.

Jews aren't allowed to visit Saudi Arabia.

Jews were exiled from the Arab nations, where they have been living for centuries. Forced out, with the clothes on their back, in many times leaving behind property for which they were never compensated.

The restrictions Jews place on Palestinians is tiddlywinks on what Arabs (and Europeans) have historically placed on Jews.

You don't know this. I find that verrrrry interesting.

Perhaps the Jews should be even more brutal and start treating Palestinians the way Arabs treat other Arabs.
by boing
Here's what the Canadian government does. When the USA says jump, they say "how high?". And they will continue to do so. They know where their bread is buttered.
by traveler
"we in general don't give a flying shit what you fuckers think or even IF you fuckers think."

Gee, wonder why they HATE us all over the world?

---------------

I just spent a month in Europe and the people there couldn't have been nicer, and I'm sure it was easy to identify me as an American. In fact, whereever my spouse and I travel all over the world, we are treated kindly. I've never had anyone say to me anything unseemly because I am an American. So, if they hate us, they certainly have a strange way of showing it.
by Me
Your bigotry shines through like a divine (infernal?) radiance.

Do us all a favor and keep it to yourself?
by another . . .
'there aint no damn blacks in canada'

another right winger who knows nothing of Canada. Go play your video games. You're too young to be online.
by Me
Hey Knought.

You know nothing about Jews, practically by your own admission.

When I named Jordan and Saudi Arabia as Judenrein countries- countries which Jews are not allowed to live in... that was an ABBREVIATED list. There are many more.

You treated it like an EXHAUSTIVE list, as if those were the only two. They aren't. You pretend they are.

Because you pretend they are, it demonstrates how little you actually know about Anti-Semitism. Let alone history.

When you're confronted with something you know nothing about, rather than saying: "Hmm, that's interesting, let me study this so I can have all the facts," you instead ridicule it saying:

"The only reason that place was even created was because no one else on earth can stand you living amongst them"

Sweet. See why we made Israel, to get away from you dipshits?

Oh, and by the way, Israel is not Jew-only. There are Christians, Moslems, Arabs and Druze living there as well, who have citizenship, who can vote, who have members in the Knesset, and have a higher standard of living anywhere else in the Arab world.

Of course, that doesn't fit in your narrow-minded, Jew-blaming worldview, so you'll probably deny it with some 3rd grade epithet. Here, I'll do it for you so you don't need the effort.

"Uhhh (grunt!) Hey! You're a ZIONIST! And my Nazi brethren tell me that ZIONISTS are EVIL! Like... you spoil milk and killed yourselves during the Holocaust! Oh uh, except there wasn't a Holocaust 'cause it was a hoax... grunt, wheeze grunt."

by one of the editors
Two posts by "clean" were just hidden because they were racist propaganda. Sorry we didn't notice it sooner. Racist propaganda is not allowed here. Take that crap elsewhere, like maybe back under the rock you crawled out from under.
by hidden
Those here at sf-imc do not want the virgin ears of their readers to be harmed by the reality of the outside world. Please accept their apologies.
by Gallup, N.M.
How many people want to see racist propaganda on SF-IMC?
by Bots
I vote no one. Not here on SF-IMC. Our fragile, egg-shell minds can't handle anything not already approved and sterilized by the collective. Why, anything not approved by the collective could be harmful to our education. So, NO, I say. You protect us from all evil and we'll merrily follow you wherever you lead us. Thank You for baby sitting our mindsand our ears and have a Happy Holliday Season!!
by See what I mean?
To continue our waltz Mark....

Let's talk about the United States.

Women are 50% of the population of the U.S. There is not anything like 50% female makeup in the Congress.

Are Blacks, Latinos, Homosexuals equally represented in the Congress? No.

Has there been a president that was not White, Christian and Male? No.

Does this mean the United States is an evil dictatorship that must be overthrown?

According to your logic, Yes. Dismantle the U.S. and give it to the Native Americans. Send all the Americans back "home" wherever that may be.

Now here's the flaw in your logic:

Have blacks, latinos, women, and Homosexuals been allowed to serve in Congress? Yes.

Can they vote? Yes.

Were they always able to vote? No, but as time went on, and PEACEFUL, NON-VIOLENT civil rights movements formed (I know, Arabs have know idea what peaceful non-violent movements are, but...) they were granted those rights.

Now, in some countries (many of them Arab) no one who is not a Male and a Moslem has a chance in hell in getting ANY representation in government.

Israel is not one of those countries. Israel is closer to the United States. I.E., things are not perfect, BUT they are a hell of a lot better than her neighbors.

But for you, an imperfect Israel makes her the most evil nation in the world.

Why? Because you hate Jews. You pretty much made that clear already.

The fact that her neighbors do things far worse, to their own people as well as to the Palestinians, is irrelevent to you. Why? Because they're not Jews, so they're okay.

Furthermore, notice this:

Again, your arguments are taking the route of:
A) You claim Israel is Jew only.
B) I point out it's not.
C) You agree its not, but say that not enough rights are given to its non-Jewish citizens.

Notice that I defeated your point "A." You couldn't even defend it. You didn't even try. You just proceeded to "C"

Did you pause to realize that maybe there's a lot you don't know? Not in the slightest.

This is because of your prejudice. Your mind works like this:

A) Jews are evil
B) Israel is Jewish
C) Therefore Israel is evil
D) Everything about Israel must be evil.
E) Anything evil I can imagine, must apply to Israel.

So you make stuff up, under "E." When I point out your wrong, that doesn't change "A" or "B." Because your underlying bigotry remains. You just make up more stuff on "E" out of your tiny little brain, without doing an iota of research or study. You're not arguing facts: you're arguing out your prejudice towards Jews. No one, not even myself or God, could convince you not to hate Jews. It's like its hardwired in your brain.

Am I wrong? I'm not seeing any evidence from you on the contraire.

Your next post will probably be something like this:

"Well uhhh... grrr, everyone hates you Jews 'cause you're so... duh... well, you must have done something, so I can hate you too! Grrrr! Blame the victim!"
by TRUTH
1.)NO

2.)YOU CAN COUNT THEM ON 1 HAND.

3.)NO


4.)YES

by A
You just won't like my answers.

1) No, it's a Jewish State that allows others to live there. Get over it!

2) A few.

3) No, but what elected body is ever "proportionally represented"?

4) I don't know. I don't care. It's their country and I suppose if they only want people who look like Sammy Davis, Jr. to enter the country they got that right.

Now, what's your stupid point?
by A Thousand Words!
Anyone who can handle the truth about Israel, should get the video documentary "Truth: Exposing Israeli Apartheid" which shows the harsh apartheid conditions the Palesitnians are forced to live under the Israelis military occupation. It shows also the bypass roads for Jews-only which go to Jews-only settlements on confiscated Palestinian land. It shows the Palestinian children who have been killed or maimed by Israelis. It shows the Palestinians' homes that have been demolished by the Israelis, the Palestinian water wells that have been filled with concrete by the Israelis, Palestinians orchards uprooted by the Israelis, the roadblocks and checkpoints that the Israelis force Palestinians to deal with day in and day out that hampers any chance of having normal lives, getting to work, and getting to school; eye-witnesses talk about the horrors they have seen and the way the Palestinians are treated by the Israelis; an Israeli Refusenik solder expresses outrage at Israel's "racist, anti-democratic, apartheid regime".
Send $20 with your return address to Truth, PO Box 10458, Oakland, CA 94610. You will receive the VHS video within 1 1/2 weeks.
by heb
A movie that cast stiffnecked, uncircumcised Palestinians in a favorable light. No thanx!
by you cannot admit their guilt.
A, if you are gonna defend Israel ,
you cannot admit their guilt.

As you do...

``NO BUT. YES BUT...``
by Jewish Peace Activist Star
Actually, in the movie "Truth: Exposing Israeli Apartheid", many of the "stars" are Jewish peace activists (Thank God for them!!!!) As I mentioned the Israeli Refusenik soldier is one of the stars, and he is Jewish.
by A
I said you wouldn't like my answers.

I didn't admit their guilt. I don't believe they are guilty. They are a soverign state that can set their own laws.

Now, what's yout stupid point?
by film
Read "cast" as "places". i.e., a movie that places stiffnecked,.......etc. I could care less if Bugs Bunny "stars" in the damn film.
by Mark Konrad has a Point.
Mark Konrad has a Point.
by Mark Konrad has a Point.
Mark Konrad has a Point.
by A
Not my problem. I don't care.
by one of the editors
because it contained a racist slur. You can't do that here. Sorry we didn't catch it sooner. It's been a busy day.
by W
It sure has been. Just go home and quit trying to police the world.
by one of the editors
I'm not trying to police the world. I am only trying to, as they say in the army, "police the area," or as civilians put it, "take out the trash."
by one of the editors
We don't care what you believe. We care what our friends and allies believe. They want you and your crap outa here.

But Merry Whatever, anyhow. Now please die.
by redrum
Ewwwww! Bad attitude.

I see a lump of coal in your stocking and bad times ahead. I'm very patient. Very. Ain't enough 1911's in the world that can help you. I never lose.

Let your kid know to be looking over his shoulder.

BANG!!!!!!!!!!!!!
by King_Papa
The Untied States expunged the "indiginus" ppls of this land from there traditional homes and sent ppl like my grandfather to school and told him to forget about his culture or his ppl, only to get a 1st grade education, and worked untill the day he died a poor "praire nigger" that some how managed to keep his family fed, and at the same time becoming a piller of his community.
Palitstinian Jews are the traditional ppl of the land, Arabs, and Christians expunged them from it.

They did unto others what had been done unto them. And in the process invited all others who had adopted the faith to join them.
by Whom.
Palestinian Jews are different than Ashkenazi ones.
They oppose reparations.
by Me again
Well Konrad... and everyone who's been listening to us.

Konrad, I accused you of being an anti-semite. I had no idea how correct I was.

I was thinking of entertaining your four questions seriously. Mostly by saying "Yes, there's inequality, but name me one country in the world where there isn't."

But before I did that, I decided to check the website you included on your posts, the Vanguard News. I suggest everyone here should take a look at it, so they can get an idea where a real Israel critic like you comes from.

Vanguard News Network is "News for Whites. No Jews."

News for Whites. Aryan nation I suppose? Haters of Blacks? And the Jew-hatred on this website (frequent references to "kikes") was nausiating.

You come here claiming you want an "enlightened debate" and you put a link to a viciously anti-Semitic website of White Power? I mean, you really read that stuff? You buy into it?

Why don't you tell us more about your News for Whites, and some of your attitudes about the Non-Whites of the world, such as Blacks, Hispanics, Asians and Jews. If you include a link like that on a post, I think your problems go far beyond Israel into a more general bigotry. If you're going to deny it, perhaps you can justify why you have such a link on your posts.
by Vince
What should really sicken you about Vanguard is the fact that they link their nazi readers directly to leftist sites like Zmag, Counterpunch and the Progressive for stories on Jews and the Jewish state. In fact, when articles about Zionism are reposted on Indymedia, it is sometimes difficult to know if they were originally written by neo-nazis or leftists. Reasonable people on the left should realize that their growing obsession with Jews and Israel is making the whole movement indistinguishable from white-power hate groups. I'm sure David Duke would have supported the Rainbow boycott. I'm not sure many other people would have.
I don't really see much difference between white supremacists and Zionists. Both preach racism and hatred and both are equally despicable as far as I'm concerned.
by Me
Name something on your precious website that isn't true? Konrad.... there's NOTHING on it that's true. Not a thing!

One lie is that Jews knew about the 9/11 attack and that no Jew died in them. A lie.

Another is that Jews control the media. A lie, and a vicious stereotype as well. That's a lie akin to claiming all Blacks are filthy, all Columbians are drug dealers.

But what's the use? You're so blinded by hate that you've totally bought in to the Jewish Conspiracy myth, a myth that was a spark of the Holocaust. I don't see the use in arguing with you. And if you think I'm going to take your idiot Vanguard website seriously, you're dreaming.

You still haven't told me your definition of a "White" yet and how you feel about "Non-Whites." It's kind of interesting, Vanguard has a movie review, and seems to LOVE movies like Lord of the Rings, where all the heroes are "White" and the vilains are not, as compared to Alien Resurrection, where there are hispanics and blacks among the "good guys" which gives the false idea that different races should work together.

Yeah, real tolerant stuff.

But yes we Jews have seen anti-Semites like you before. No doubt we will again. It's a familiar scenario, alas. But we even make jokes about it. I'll update this one so your neanderthal brain can understand it.

Jacob sees his friend Isaac surfing the net and reading the Vanguard News. "Isaac! What are you doing? Why are you reading something filled with lies on your people, such blind hatred? Have you joined the enemies of your own people? God forbid, did you become a self-hating Jews?"

"Not at all," said Isaac. "When I read our own websites.... the israelinsider, israel forum, I get the same news over and over again. Anti-Semitism on the rise, terrorism in Israel, a lack of peace partners in the middle east. But on Vanguard I see so much more: That we own all the banks, that we control all the media, that we run all the schools, and that we're on the verge of taking over the entire world. You know- it makes me feel a whole lot better!"

(Now for you people who don't understand jokes, the joke makes no sense unless you realize that the "Jewish Conspiracy for world dominance" is a hoax and blatant piece of anti-Semitism. If you believe in the Jewish conspiracy like Herr Konrad does, no doubt this joke won't make sense to you.)
by ;;;
"Yeah, real tolerant stuff."

Um, I don't think they have an interest in being tolerant about anything.
by one of the editors
All comments by Mark Konrad have been removed. He's an Nazi, and anti-Semite and he's not allowed to post here. No one who speaks kindly of National Vanguard is allowed to post here. Links to NV are not allowed here.

Sorry if this makes some of the remaining posts seem to be non sequitors. It's better to have a few non sequitors than to permit National Vanguard to hijack SF-IMC's time, money and energy to promote their sick, evil agenda.

And no, it is not anti-Semitic to criticize Israel, or even Judaism. It is anti-Semitic to criticize Jews as a group, and we will not permit it to be done on our site. Jews are as widely varied as any other People. Some are evil, some are good and most are in between. If you want to criticize the evil ones, go right ahead. But be sure that you make it clear that you are criticizing them for being evil, and not for being Jews. If you criticize them for being Jews, or speak kindly of anyone who does, you're out of here.
by Phil
O.K. "one of the editors" - what if I repeatedly post criticism of "evil Jews" who are responsible for all the suffering in the world, clearly noting that I am only referring to those Jews who support Israel's right to exist. Will that magically transform me from a neo-nazi to a rightous progressive?
by one of the editors
Evil Jews are not responsible for all of the suffering in the world. But they are responsible for some of it. To not call them on the part for which they are responsible, solely because they are Jews, is racist.
No other country on the face of the planet gets anywhere near as much aid as we give Israel. That makes us indirectly (some would say directly) responsible for the crimes Israel commits as opposed to say Russia's crimes in Chechnya.

Israel's supporters want Israel to be singled out for this special treatment but when the people who pay all of Israel's bills say "what the hell are we doing," Israel's supporters are indignant and claim the only reason anyone would want to criticize such a "self-evidently" righteous country must be possessed by some sort of hatred.

Similarly, Palestinians -- Israel's victims -- are somehow possessed by this "hatred." Opposing wrongs is not hatred. I expect Israel's supporters will deny this up and down though because Israel's crimes againts Palestinians and our government's financial and diplomatic support for it are indefensible and unjustifiable.

It's not possible to defend the indefensible and justify the unjustifiable without resorting to smear tactics. Thus the smears will continue.
by From Santa
Here's something for you to ponder. You assert that David Duke would support the boycott on Israeli products at Rainbow.

Of course, you are right, BUT, other people who believe in EQUAL RIGHTS FOR ALL INCLUDING PALESTINIANS also support the boycott on Israeli goods.

David Duke is angry about the hypocracy that typifies so many Zionist Jews, who claim to be for equal rights for blacks and other minorities (like Jews) in the United States, yet who are adamant about maintaining an apartheid, racist, anti-democratic theocracy in Israel, an explicitly, law-enforced Jewish supremacist state.

It is strange how someone like Elliott Abrams who was just named by Bush to head the U.S. Middle East affairs department has actually written a book in which he advocates against Jews marrying non-Jews, even here in America---- isn't that racist? To make a public, blanket statement like that? Yet it goes unprotested when a Zionist Jew says something like that. Yet if a white says that whites should only marry Christian whites, and makes a big public statement about this policy, it is decried as racist!

I, for one, believe that it is entirely up to the individual to marry whoever one pleases, and that to insist on segregation or no inter-racial marraige for others is racist. And I whole-heartedly support the boycott on Israeli goods as long as it is a Jewish supremacist, apartheid theocracy, just like I supported the boycott against South Africa when it was apartheid.

I, too, hate the hypocracy that exemplifies Zionist Jews, but for entirely different reasons than David Duke.

Zionist Jews are only for equal rights when it suits their purposes. Here in the United States, it certainly suits their purposes to fight for minority rights since Jews are a minority. However in Israel, Zionist Jews have it worked into the very laws that govern Israel that Israel is to continue to be a Jewish supremacist state. 92% of the land of Israel is officially for use by Jews ONLY, for instance. Just look at the flag! How can a real democracy have just one religious symbol on it? Jews are an artificially maintained majority in the Arab land of Palestine-Israel. Muslims, Christians and Druze even living inside Israel's borders do not have exactly the same rights as Jews. And no one is allowed to run for a government post if they plan to challenge that Israel is a JEWISH state, rather than a truly secular, democracy with equal rights for all regardless of religion, ethnicity or sex. Israel also has NO constitution, conveniently so. Isarel has defied over 80 UN Resolutions. Israel has never been the democracy that the UN required it to be for all the people under its government. Israel is a rogue state that has continually flaunted UN Resolutions and international law. How long are Americans going to stand by and let our government give away billions of our tax dollars every year to apartheid, racist, aggressive and immoral Isarel?
by Mike
Mr. "editor" - I have seen sites which carefully enumerate and describe violent crimes committed by African Americans, to the exclusion of crimes committed by any other groups. Would you say that these sites are not racist because its true that some Afircan Americans are criminals? It's also true that some Jews are greedy, ugly, selfish, dishonest etc. How about a site devoted to exposing Jewish greed (but no one elses)?

Santa -Countries with religious symbols on thier flags include: Algeria, Andorra, Anguilla, Australia, Azerbaijan, Bermuda, Cayman Islands, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Fiji, Finland, Great Britain, Greece, Iceland, India, Iran, Malaysia, Maldives, Malta, Mauritania, Moldova, Mongolia, Morocco, New Zealand, Norway, Pakistan, Saudi Aradia, Slovakia, Sweden, Switzerland, Tunisia and Uzbekistan. I await the day that Indymedia "leftists" whine about how the cross on the Swedish flag means that Sweden is not a democracy.
by King_Papa
This is a Funny discussion. You wouldnt be critisizing Isreal if we had the same problem.

Lets take a Look at this senario for just a minute:

Suppose the United States was a prodistant nation, and that was the religion of the state.

Mexico is Cathlic and I BELEAVE that is the state religion im not sure but follow me on this and we'll take a walk down the relm of possibility.

Most cathics are deeply religous as is the nature of the religion, after all, all of south america is cathlic, all of central america is cathlic and most of canada is cathlic. The united states is the only one that is truley differant in a religous sence.

Now suppose that mexico didnt have a real and foriegn extremist where runnig the country(like palistine) and these extremist wanted nothing but our total distruction(wait some countrys do).

In catholosism suicide is a mortal sin, BUT death in the service of god is not(the loop whole).

this is going nowhere but the point im trying to make is that if mexicans where running accros the border to blow men women or chilren that where going to or coming from work or school, the united states would have that whole country in lock down. No ifs, ands or buts.

and we would tell the rest of the world to "Kiss My Ass," because this is in the defense of our country and way of life.


Just a thought.
by Wally
"one of the editors" says that it would be racist to not call the Jews on the evils they are responsible for - but what of context? scope? scale? The "leftists" who spend their days demonizing Israel rather than dozens of other countries involved in internal or external wars leads reasonable question the source of this obsession with Jews and the Jewish State.

Santa - Countries with religious symbols on thier flags include Algeria, Andorra, Anguilla, Australia, Azerbaijan, Bermuda, Cayman Islands, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Fiji, Finland, Great Britain, Greece, Iceland, India, Iran, Malaysia, Maldives, Malta, Mauritania, Moldova, Mongolia, Morocco, New Zealand, Norway, Pakistan, Saudi Aradia, Slovakia, Sweden, Switzerland, Tunisia and Uzbekistan. This list does not include flags with national symbols, of which the star of david can also be considered. Perhaps one day Indymedia "leftists" will rage against the cross on the Swedish flag and how it reflects the racist nature of Sweden - but I doubt it.
by From Santa
A Jewish Star of David is EXTREMELY inappropriate for a country that was artificially and immorally created by the UN who gave away land that was not theirs to give away in the first place to Eastern European Jews who have been committing ethnic cleansing since day one of Israel's creation in 1948, in a land that is naturally multi-cultural with naturally a majority of Arab Muslims by far, then Jews, Christians and Druze. Israel is a JEWISH SUPREMACIST state NOT a democracy with equal rights for all regardless of religion, ethnicity or sex.
DOWN WITH ZIONISM!!! FOREVER!!
by Wally
"editor" - the reason the National Alliance posts here so often is because they recognize what you do not - that the leftists of Indymedia are kindred spritis and brothers in jew-obsession. Death to nazism, death to the left, death to Indymedia.
by frequent poster
We're not obsessed with "jews" but with the crimes of Israel which, as Americans, we have been forced to pay for with our tax money. In fact, many of us *are* Jews. We're fed up with having to finance a racist regime. Had our rulers chosen to pick the other side in this conflict, and use our tax money to finance them instead, we would be every bit as upset as we are now. It's not the ethnicity of the perps that we object to, but that we have been forced, literally at gun point, to be their accomplices.

"At gunpoint"!?! Isn't that a hyperbole, you may ask. No, it is not. Government is an extortion racket. That's how it makes it's living. If you refuse to pay taxes, you will be arrested. If you resist, you will be killed. That's extortion at gunpoint.

Then, to add insult to injury, they use our money to finance ethnic cleansing, and not just in Palestine, either. They backed a gang of racist, heroin dealing pimps in their move to ethnically cleanse Kosovo/a of Serbs and Roma. The KLA ain’t nothing but the IDF writ small. When the fascist, racist Tudjman regime, ethnically cleansed 200,00 Serbs from the Krajina, NATO flew air support. And so on, an nauseum, ad infinitum. It’s a syndrome. Palestine is only one symptom out of many. We’re sick of being forced to enable it.
by Hasbara Goy

Zionism is built on a foundation of eugenically motivated racism and WAR BY DECEPTION
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=deception

THAT IS WHY hate-filled strormfront posts appear on IMC whenever anyone criticizes poor lil' Israel. It's called playing the fallacy of guilt-by-association game so that "real" reporters (zionists) can complain about the nazis that inhabit IMC (we've already seen this with "Naomi" & "Muslim")
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=deception

Zionism maintains the only state on earth without defined borders.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=deception

Zionism is currently the most dangerous cult on earth.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=deception

by ...
The smear tactic of accusing anyone who criticizes Israel or our support of Israel as "hate" is growing very thin. It's not that Israel's supporters are upset that we don't criticize any other country. They pretty much leave us alone when we criticize other countries including our own government. It's just when we criticize Israel they are up in arms and accuse everyone of hate and of wanting to destroy Israel, etc. I don't see how anyone can take them seriously anymore. Especially when their favorite country is destroying Palestinians on a daily basis with our weapons. It's tiring though having to address the same old accusations over and over without end.
by heard it before
"A lie repeated often enough becomes the truth." - G. Goebbles

by A.S.A.P.

The Dimona nuclear reactor

In the landmark book Israel and the Bomb, scholar Avner Cohen observes that Israel's nuclear policy has been an enduring success because it has enabled the country to maintain a nuclear monopoly in the Middle East while avoiding the political liabilities associated with overt possession of nuclear weapons. According to former Prime Minister Shimon Peres, Israel's policy of nuclear ambiguity has "managed to create sufficient suspicion for there to be a deterrent without having gotten to a status of clarity which would behoove sanctions against us."1

Hence, despite the South Asian nuclear tests and concerns about the acquisition of weapons of mass destruction by other states in the Middle East, the current nuclear posture review is unlikely to lead to major change in Israel's posture of nuclear ambiguity.

The Persian Gulf and the Middle East, though nominally separate geographic identities, are linked fundamentally as one broad political-military region. The dynamics of the Arab-Israeli conflict, and Israel's relative military superiority, invariably affect the thinking of all the Arab/Persian communities in the region, not to mention inter-Arab rivalries. The Iran-Iraq war was a powerful formative experience for both countries and their concepts of national security and deterrence. Likewise, Israel's long history of conflict with its neighbors, its innate sense of vulnerability, and the hostility it faces from the Gulf States continue to drive its own elusive search for security.

Israel's nuclear weapons are an outgrowth of its sense of siege and the corresponding doctrine that arises from this psychology. Israeli military strategy has long focused on preemptive conventional capabilities and the ability to carry the battle away from Israeli territory and population centers. Although this doesn’t seem to be the case today, statistics still indicates that more Arabs are killed by military action in Palestinian “ruled” areas than in Israeli territories. Thus, as the analyst Geoffrey Kemp notes, any threat that undermines the superiority of the air force also calls into question the Israeli concept of deterrence. Arab advances in missile technology, air defenses, and chemical weapons seem to offer just such a threat. Thus, nuclear weapons are seen as a hedge against conventional attack as well as a deterrent against weapons of mass destruction.

Israel's nuclear weapons program dates back to the late 1950s and the construction of the nuclear facility at Dimona, in the Negev. There, with French and later South African assistance, the Israelis embarked upon a nuclear weapons program that, according to U.S. Intelligence estimates, is thought to have yielded between 75 and 130 devices. Some reports indicate that Israel instituted a nuclear alert during the 1973 Yom Kippur War and again in 1991 during the Gulf conflict. Information about the Israeli weapons program is somewhat conjectural. The Israeli government does not admit to possessing nuclear weapons and is not a member of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT). Dimona remains a closed site not subject to international inspections or safeguards. There exists no official mention of how nuclear weapons fit into Israeli strategic thinking, and their role in the Israeli Defense Force's doctrine is therefore a matter of guesswork.

The states arrayed against Israel hold that it is their right to develop nuclear weapons as a deterrent to the Israeli arsenal. They believe that Washington maintains a double standard by ignoring Israel's acquisition of weapons of mass destruction while opposing the transfer of even peaceful nuclear technologies to others. Both Iraq and Iran have sought nuclear capability as a strategic equalizer. In the case of Iraq, however, nuclear weapons serve an ambition greater than the acquisition of a relative deterrent. Saddam's search for regional hegemony means that he must both overcome Iran's strategic superiority and stake a claim to leadership of the Arab world. In Saddam's eyes, weapons of mass destruction (WMD) in general, and nuclear weapons specifically, serve both purposes. They counter Iran's strategic depth and demographic superiority. They are also seen to threaten and confront Israel. Thus they play to broader inter-Arab themes.

Israel is understandably averse to seeing its nuclear advantage eroded. Indeed, as its air strike on the Osiraq reactor in Iraq in 1981 demonstrated, Israel is ready to maintain a nuclear monopoly in the region through the use of force. That the world was a safer place following the destruction of the Iraqi reactor is undoubted. And it is noteworthy that Iraq possessed a relatively advanced military program despite its membership in the NPT. However, in the long run, the tactical success of the air raid may prove to be counterproductive. It certainly underscored the Arab belief that their defenses could only be marginally effective against Israel in the absence of a credible nuclear deterrent. Additionally, Arab governments reacted with a mixture of indignation and suspicion at Israel's de facto claim to a monopoly. Applying the logic of the East-West balance of power convinced some in the region of the stability that nuclear proliferation might impart. This logic may be dubious, but it nevertheless provides a powerful incentive for countries seeking a nuclear weapons capability.

These dynamics tend to reinforce themselves. Iraq's weapons programs may have been intended to confront Israel, but it was the Iranians who suffered from Saddam's obsession with chemical weapons, as the world, including the United States, looked on in silence during their eight-year war. This instilled in Tehran the powerful lesson that it must be responsible for its own defense. US acquiescence to the Israeli nuclear program further erodes Tehran's faith in the equal application of international arms control regimes. They hesitate to ratify the Chemical Weapons Convention (CWC), despite their own doubts as to the utility of these weapons. Iranian attempts to hedge against perceived threats, couched as they often are in incendiary rhetoric aimed at Israel, simply reinforces Iran's image as a proliferator.

Iran has posited the creation of a weapons-of-mass-destruction-free zone in the Middle East, but this approach is disingenuous. The idea links Israel's nuclear weapons capability to an eventual political settlement that Iran actively opposes. Such a strategy seeks to place the burden of proof on Israel's intention to forgo its nuclear deterrent. Tel Aviv will not address the nuclear question without a prior, far-reaching political settlement and several years of confidence building measures. Thus the mechanics for a regional nuclear arms race are, for the time being, locked into place.

The Israeli nuclear arsenal will continue to drive Iranian and Iraqi WMD acquisition efforts for the foreseeable future. In turn, these ambitions are likely to underscore Israel's sense of vulnerability. Furthermore, the perception that nuclear weapons connote independence, equality, and prestige will likely survive any regime change in Baghdad, further perpetuating proliferation in the region as a whole. Strategies of containment and technology denial may slow the process, but they offer no permanent solutions.

Beginning the long process of integrating Iran fully into the world community as a responsible member could provide a keystone upon which to build a broader settlement. Rejection of Israel and the United States are not necessarily popular or static characteristics of traditional Iranian foreign policy. Ironically, there exists in Iran a far greater popular consensus for engagement than seems to exist in either the United States or Israel. Engaging Iran has its share of pitfalls. But talk of an "axis of evil" or bombing the Bushehr reactor sites can only retard progress along the path towards controlling nuclear proliferation in the Middle East.

There is no doubt that the arms race and dominance of force in the Middle East remains at the forefront of Israel’s policy of securing themselves against the potential threat of the Arab world. Israel’s occupation of Palestine, the blanket support given to it by its main ally the USA, its political ploys of maintaining dominance over the Arab region, its fundamentalist Zionist affiliates, supportive of its right to exist regardless of the price, and above all its ambiguous nuclear facilities offer no calm to the region. Israel will continue to be the sole reason for other countries in the region to maintain nuclear facilities. From the time of the creation of the “state of Israel,” the issue of weapons of mass destruction continues to point the Middle East in one direction. The opinion that most hold that the biggest threat emanates from Iraq or Iran is a fallacy. Israel has committed more crimes than any Arab Country, and today still keeps hidden its potentially disastrous nuclear weapons program. As such, there remains no quick-fix solution to nuclear proliferation in the Middle East.

Ebrahim Mohamed is head of the Institute for Arabic and Islamic Research in South Africa where he hosted the “Is Israel set up for destruction?” symposium between Sheikh Ahmed Deedat and Paul Findley. He is mainly interested in the Palestinian issue and the role of South Africa in the Middle East. He resides in Cape Town, South Africa. You can reach him at ebrahim [at] rosmead.co.za
by TA
if you can't figure that one out, I've got a bridge to sell you!
by one of the editors
"Jill" is banned. Nazis f*ck off.
by one of the editors
it was anti-Semitic.
by just a suggestion
They should be trailed back to their lairs and killed. Preferably, they should be beaten to death with clubs, slowly, one bone at a time. If that's not practical, just shoot 'em. If you don't want to get caught, don't leave forensic evidence behind and don't talk about it later. Just do it. People get away with murder all the time. You can, too.
by Peiper (aesthdessin [at] manager.de)

Quite right. We do it every now and then, and disappear into the background.

Mossad style, you understand.

If we can't get the loudmouths, we concentrate on their kids or their parents.

Cheers

T
by End Zionism
End Nazism. End Zionism. End all Racism.
by TRUTH
visit http://www.whatreallyhappened.com
by Zionism is the biggest threat
Zionism is by far the biggest threat to world peace. If it weren't for Zionism and its enablers, the greedy Christian right types, we wouldn't be on the verge of WWIII right now. Dismantle Zionist Israel now!
by one of the editors
comments by “Fahad” and “Tariq” were hidden because they were Zionist propaganda. They were also both spam.
by Not One of the Editors
On the other hand, the site whatereallyhappended referenced above is not propaganda but an earnest attempt to uncover the truth. See links for "Jews and White Slavery". Your hate is showing.
by one of the editors
Bull plop. Some of the links on whatreallyhappened.com are to bogus data. Some are not. Some we don't know about. Same goes for Rense. Same goes for CNN. Same goes for SF-IMC. Same goes for most sites with links. Logic dictates that every single piece of purported information must be evaluated on the basis of it's own merits, not on the basis of who told you, what site it was on, what else was on the site, or how you found it on the internet.

What's really showing is your transparent attempt to discredit what I say, not with evidence, but by changing the subject to something somebody else said on a site three clicks away from a link posted on this site by somebody who wasn't me and for all we know was you yourself.

It's lame. You're lame. Either use unimpeachable evidence from primary sources to prove that what I say is incorrect, or give up. This sophomore style, B-team grade debate technique don’t cut it. You’re outclassed. Show some sportsmanship and resign gracefully.

Better still, if you like to argue so much, why don't you go argue with those people who say I'm an "apologist for Israel". They're not too bright, either. You'll all get along.
by Not One of Editors
In that case, when confronted with a post which contains some truth and some falsehood, why not leave the entire post. Allow the Indymedia reader to distinguish the good and bad in a post as they would in a site which contains a number of links of questionable taste or authority.
by one of the editors
Racist, sexist, homophobic propaganda is not allowed here. Your having embedded it in something worthwhile wont stop us from removing it. We have neither the time nor the inclination to edit text within a post or comment. If there is any r acist, sexist or homophobic propaganda in a post or comment, it's outa here. Do it again, and you're outa here.

That's our policy. Like or lump it.
by Hey
Racist, Sexist and Homophobic may not be allowed....

But anti-Semitism is encouraged!

by one of the editors
Anti-Semitism is a form of racism. Anti-Semitic posts and comments are hidden. Anti-Zionism is *NOT* anti-Semitism. learn to tell the difference.
by TRUTH
visit http://www.whatreallyhappened.com
by Hey
I suppose it's POSSIBLE to be Anti-Zionist without being an Anti-Semite.

I just never met anyone who was.

by Believe me!
It's possible to be anti-Zionist without being an anti-Semite! Really! Trust me on this.

Don't be silly. It's OBVIOUS! After all, check out http://www.jewsnotzionists.org!

They are Jews BUT they are NOT Zionists! I hope you will take their lead.

Shalom.
by TA
"do so because they hate Jews"

Stop trying to spread lies.

I'm anti-zionist and I like Jews. My ex was Jewish and had been to israel - we had a wonderful time. My therapist was Jewish and he was amazing. I still want the settlements out and the murder to stop, and am against Zionism. But I don't hate anyone because of any religion or ethnicity. And I'm part of Indymedia, just like you are.
by Hey
You can be against the settlements without being against Zionism.

Zionism is the belief that Jews have the right to their own land, in their historic homeland.

Anti-Zionism means that Israel has no right to exist, should be conquered, destroyed, Jews exiled.

Well, then again, some people will disagree with my definition of Anti-Zionism. But then again- I don't agree with their definition of Zionism.

I consider myself a Zionist. I have mixed feelings about the settlements. I would withdraw them for a peace settlement. I would not withdraw them to cave in to terror, and so forth.

But many people here on Indymedia claim Zionism is a Jewish conspiracy of world domination, the souce of all evil, as old as Satan himself.

And that interpretation I consider to be anti-Semitism.

by Dave
Editor - This statement criticizes anti-zionism - it is therefore evil and dangerous and does not belong on Indymedia

Zionism, the national liberation movement of the Jewish people, is once again under attack. At college campuses throughout the country, myths of Zionist oppression and of the racist Zionist regimes in "Palestine" are once again invading the world with anti-Jewish propaganda. The truth is that anti-Zionism is just a new manifestation of old-school anti-Semitism. So let us tackle some of the common lies that are propagated against Jews every day.

A common charge that we hear is that Israel does not have a right to exist because it has displaced the indigenous population of "Palestine." There is only one people who have continuously lived in Eretz Israel (land of Israel) for the past 3,700 years - the Jews. Jerusalem, in particular, has had a Jewish majority since the 1840s, 40 years prior to the beginnings of Zionism. Seventy-five percent of the land in east Jerusalem, which the press calls "historically Arab east Jerusalem," has been owned by Jews since 1947. The nations that inhabited the land prior to the Jews are no longer in existence, for they have been absorbed into various other peoples throughout the millennia.

The Arabs of Israel only came to the land in 632 with the Muslim invasion, at which time they decided to name the land "Filastin," a term they borrowed from the Romans. In fact, the very term "Palestine" is misleading, for it has no Jewish connotation. The Romans first named the land Palestine in the second-century CE (common era) after crushing the last Jewish revolt in an attempt to minimize the Jewish identity of the land. The historical Jewish ties to the land were reinforced in the First Arab Congress, which was held in June 1913, at which Abdul-Hamid Yahrawi, the president of the congress, said, "All of us, both Muslims and Christians, have the best of feelings toward the Jews ... We regard them as Syrians who were forced to leave the country at one time but whose hearts always beat together with ours."

Many Jews also have a great religious connection to Eretz Israel. According to the Torah, Judaism's holiest book, God made a covenant with the children of Israel in which he promised them the land. Islam also recognizes this covenant. The Qu'ran, Islam's holiest book, states, "And certainly Allah made a covenant with the children of Israel." (Sura 5, line 12) The fact is that Jews have carried the land of Israel in their hearts whether in Eretz Israel or in the diaspora.

Another common accusation is that Israel violates the human rights of the Palestinian Arabs. The facts are different. Israel granted full citizenship to all of the Palestinian Arabs who fell within its borders after the War of Independence. Arabic is an official language in Israel. Israel remains to this day one of the few countries in the Middle East where Arabs can legitimately vote and the only one where women can vote.

The only difference between the rights of Arab Israelis and Jewish Israelis is that Arabs are not required to serve in the army, although they may if they choose. All Druze Arabs and many bedouins serve in the army.

There are, however, Arabs who live in the territories captured by Israel in the 1967 Six Day War. These Arabs do have certain restrictions put on their lives due to the security situation in Israel. While they are not citizens, these Arabs do receive equal protection under the law. For the first time, they were recently allowed to vote in municipal elections.

Additionally, since 1967, the living conditions of Palestinian Arabs has substantially improved. According to the Israel Ministry of Health, the infant mortality rate declined from 120 per 1,000 live births in 1967 to 30 per 1,000 in 1988 and continues to improve to this day. Since the war, the percentage of children born in hospitals has increased from 10 to 80 percent.

When Israel became independent in 1948, there was only one Arab high school in the land. Now, all Arab children are required to attend one of the hundreds of Arab high schools in the area. Furthermore, Israel has shown its willingness to give the Palestinian Arabs more self rule by signing a series of dangerous peace treaties which have so far given over 80 percent of the Arab population autonomy.

Along with these attacks on the character of Israel have come attacks on Zionist ideology itself. These attacks reached a peak when the UN passed its infamous "Zionism equals racism" resolution. This charge is totally ridiculous because Zionism by its nature is a color-blind movement. The Israeli Law of Return, which allows any Jew instant citizenship in Israel, recognizes neither previous nationality nor race. This charge of racism was shown to be preposterous when in 1984, 1985 and again in 1991, Israel rescued 42,000 members of the ancient Ethiopian Jewish community. This was the first time in history when thousands of African people were brought en masse to a country - not as slaves, but as liberated free people. Still, certain Israelis have, in isolated incidents, spouted racist language. This fact does not mean that all of Zionism is represented by this language any more than the rhetoric of Pat Buchanan represents the Constitution of the United States.

There is one line anti-Semites who propagate the lies about Israel will always repeat. They claim, "I am not anti-Semitic, I am anti-Zionist." In order to answer this claim, we must understand why in this day and age such a claim is made by the anti-Semites.

Ever since the Holocaust, the term anti-Semitism has become unfashionable and politically incorrect; thus, the enemies of the Jews began speaking in code, often replacing the word Zionist for Jew and anti-Zionism for anti-Semitism. While the terminology has changed, the charges and the effects remain the same. Today instead of saying "the Jews control the world's media" or "the Jews control the world's economy," which were common slogans of European anti-Semites, we read in "anti-Zionist" pamphlets such as ones from the former USSR: "The Zionists are supported by ... the economies of 80 percent of the capitalist countries, and by 90-96 percent of the information media which dupe the people." Obviously, these are the same hate-filled lies simply transformed.

As Benjamin Netanyahu described it, anti-Zionism is "the same anti-Semitism dressed up in trendy terminology." In practice, the distinction between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism is meaningless because the targets of both movements are the same. The New York Times ran a poll which discovered that 99 percent of American Jews identify with the rights of the Jews to the Jewish state. To be not anti-Semitic but merely anti-Zionist is absurd. It is the equivalent of saying, "I am not anti-American; I just think that the United States should not exist."

The tactics of Jew-haters might change throughout the ages. The enemy might be of the classical religious variety, the racial anti-Semitic kind or the modern anti-Zionist. The hate is the same no matter what form it takes. Our duty is to be informed so as to answer this bigotry whenever we encounter it.
by debate coach
>Anti-Zionism means that Israel has no right to exist, should be conquered, destroyed, Jews exiled.

Anti-Zionism means that Israel has no right to exist. That does not mean it should be conquered, destroyed, Jews exiled.

That's a post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Jews have as much right as anybody else does to live in Palestine in peace, unmolested by their neighbors. They do not have the right to lord it over others and steal their homes by force.
by A. Fleischer
Do any of you, and I mean ANY of you, really think that you can accomplish any little thing at all by this pointless discussion?

As an Israeli-American (holding dual citizenship), all I can say is that I hear you Americans whining all the time about so many things. You complain about the influence of the Israeli and Zionist lobby with your Congress, the growing power of our Jewish entity the ADL - aka the 'Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith' (yes it really is ours, and we are extremely proud of its Zionist power), the great influential power of Zionist leadership at the top of your major media conglomerate companies, the billions of your tax dollars sent to our state of Israel every year, how we consider you Americans to be our money-slaves and refer to your country as the 'United States of Israel', etc...

In this post-911 environment, I am no longer worried or concerned about openly stating my Zionism. SO WHAT if all the things above that you forever whine about are true. Regardless, you simply must see that we Zionist Jews have risen to this high degree of power and authority in your country by using your own rules and laws, that's all. All you other goyim races also so far tried playing by these same rules, but we are clearly the superior ones who have finally won the game of power and authority in America - fair and square! Deal with it!

You must certainly also fully realize why this has happened. There was never anything that you could do about it. We Israelis are well known to be the superior chosen people of G_d, and that is why we will always, ALWAYS, eventually rise to such a level of command over all you inferior goyim races. It doesn't matter whether we are existing in America, or in any other country. We simply are G_d's own chosen race - thus all the other races can never, EVER, be anything else but compliant subjects and servants to us in our eventual glorious kingdom of Zion in Israel. This is our very Zionist belief system and lifeblood. It is our unstoppable fate and destiny to ultimately rule over all of you goyim masses of this world. For the time being, it is safe to say that America is the best and rapid vehicle we have historically ever found to get us there - primarily because it is so extremely easy for us to beat you goyim when playing by your own American rules and laws.

So please, PLEASE, stop all your never-ending American whining about everything. There is simply nothing you can do about it, that time is long past. Our Zionist power and influence is now already well established in your government, your media, our client religions of Christianity. Soon your very own fighting American military will cause our Zionism to be triumphantly dominant over Islam as well. And Islam held out a great, great deal longer against our Zionism power then even you Americans did!

It is now unquestionably true that we have fully succeeded in making Zionism an unspoken, but fully powerful and governing, presence in every single existing aspect of your American society - from your military ventures, to your movie themes, to your federal laws, to your business practices. You Americans could never have reached this current level of success without our help - by temporarily lending to you our leadership skills and higher intellect to get you here.

In your subconscious minds, you already know that we - the Jewish Zionist people of Israel - have already attained a level of superiority and influence in your American society that can never be reversed. It is time that you stopped all your incessant whining about it, and instead, just resign yourself to "play ball" the way that we instruct you to do so. For only those actually in positions of power and control can ever make the kinds of changes that you constantly whine about... and those positions are all taken. You MUST now clearly see that there is a reason that we in Zionist leadership already fills all those positions. We have won the game, period. We are better and more organized and more qualified. Live with it!

So my final message to all you Americans is this: Shut-up, get with our program, and we will then all live in peace.
by the truth
There is an old polish saying, pre-WWII, that translates as: "The jew always cries out in pain as he is striking you."

That saying now always comes to mind whenever I hear people making the rediculous claim that being anti-zionist is the same as being anti-semitic.

And by the way, all arab peoples are semitic by definition. Most jews nowadays are not semitic, they are converts.

If you criticize a group of racist people and they reply by saying that you are racist for calling them racist, then I guess we're all racists. Oh, and anti-semitic too.

Being called anti-semitic doesn't sting as much nowadays, since it apparently means being anti-racist.
by food for thought
Israeli Quotes

quotations by leading Israelis

“I don't know something called International
Principles. I vow that I'll burn every Palestinian
child (that) will be born in this area. The
Palestinian woman and child is more dangerous than the
man, because the Palestinian childs existence infers
that generations will go on, but the man causes
limited danger. I vow that if I was just an Israeli
civilian and I met a Palestinian I would burn him and
I would make him suffer before killing him. With one
hit I've killed 750 Palestinians (in Rafah in 1956). I
wanted to encourage my soldiers by raping Arabic girls
as the Palestinian women is a slave for Jews, and we
do whatever we want to her and nobody tells us what we
shall do but we tell others what they shall do.

[Ariel Sharon, current Prime Minister, In an interview
with General Ouze Merham, 1956]


1. "There is a huge gap between us (Jews) and our
enemies -not just in ability but in morality, culture,
sanctity of life, and conscience. They are our
neighbors here, but it seems as if at a distance of a
few hundred meters away, there are people who do not
belong to our continent, to our world, but actually
belong to a different galaxy." Israeli president Moshe
Katsav. The Jerusalem Post, May 10, 2001


2. "The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you
give them meat, they want more".... Ehud Barak, Prime
Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000.
Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000


3. " [The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two
legs." Menahim Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in
Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the Beasts". New
Statesman, 25 June 1982.


4. "The Palestinians would be crushed like
grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders
and walls." Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) in
a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1,
1988


5. "When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will
be able to do about it will be to scurry around like
drugged cockroaches in a bottle." Raphael Eitan, Chief
of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces, New York
Times, 14 April 1983.


6. "How can we return the occupied territories? There
is nobody to return them to." Golda Meir, March 8,
1969.


7. "There was no such thing as Palestinians, they
never existed." Golda Meir Israeli Prime Minister
June 15, 1969


8. "The thesis that the danger of genocide was hanging
over us in June 1967 and that Israel was fighting for
its physical existence is only bluff, which was born
and developed after the war." Israeli General
Matityahu Peled, Ha'aretz, 19 March 1972.


9. David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime
Minister): "If I were an Arab leader, I would never
sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have
taken their country. It is true God promised it to us,
but how could that interest them? Our God is not
theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis,
Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see
but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their
country. Why would they accept that?" Quoted by Nahum
Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox),
pp121.


9a. Ben Gurion also warned in 1948 : "We must do
everything to insure they (the Palestinians) never do
return." Assuring his fellow Zionists that
Palestinians will never come back to their homes. "The
old will die and the young will forget."

10. "We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they
are resigned to live here as slaves." Chairman
Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of
General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October
1983.


11. "Every time we do something you tell me America
will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you
something very clear: Don't worry about American
pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control
America, and the Americans know it." - Israeli Prime
Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001, to Shimon
Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio.


12. "We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to
settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel... Force
is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use
the ultimate force until the Palestinians come
crawling to us on all fours." Rafael Eitan, Chief of
Staff of the Israeli Defense Forces - Gad Becker,
Yediot Ahronot 13 April 1983, New York Times 14 April
1983.


13. "We must do everything to ensure they [the
Palestinian refugees] never do return" David
Ben-Gurion, in his diary, 18 July 1948, quoted in
Michael Bar Zohar's Ben-Gurion: the Armed Prophet,
Prentice-Hall, 1967, p. 157.


15. "We should prepare to go over to the offensive.
Our aim is to smash Lebanon, Trans-Jordan, and Syria.
The weak point is Lebanon, for the Moslem regime is
artificial and easy for us to undermine. We shall
establish a Christian state there, and then we will
smash the Arab Legion, eliminate Trans-Jordan; Syria
will fall to us. We then bomb and move on and take
Port Said, Alexandria and Sinai." David Ben-Gurion,
May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A
Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York
1978.


16. "We must use terror, assassination, intimidation,
land confiscation, and the cutting of all social
services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."
Israel Koenig, "The Koenig Memorandum"


17. "Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab
villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab
villages, and I do not blame you because geography
books no longer exist. Not only do the books not
exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal
arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the
place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of
Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal
al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this
country that did not have a former Arab population."
Moshe Dayan, address to the Technion, Haifa, reported
in Haaretz, April 4, 1969.

18. "We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us.
Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with
the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand
in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!'" Yitzhak
Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs,
published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.


19. Rabin's description of the conquest of Lydda,
after the completion of Plan Dalet. "We shall reduce
the Arab population to a community of woodcutters and
waiters" Uri Lubrani, PM Ben-Gurion's special adviser
on Arab Affairs, 1960. From "The Arabs in Israel" by
Sabri Jiryas.


20. "There are some who believe that the non-Jewish
population, even in a high percentage, within our
borders will be more effectively under our
surveillance; and there are some who believe the
contrary, i.e., that it is easier to carry out
surveillance over the activities of a neighbor than
over those of a tenant. [I] tend to support the latter
view and have an additional argument:...the need to
sustain the character of the state which will
henceforth be Jewish...with a non-Jewish minority
limited to 15 percent. I had already reached this
fundamental position as early as 1940 [and] it is
entered in my diary." Joseph Weitz, head of the Jewish
Agency's Colonization Department. From Israel: an
Apartheid State by Uri Davis, p.5.


21. "Everybody has to move, run and grab as many
hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements
because everything we take now will stay ours...
Everything we don't grab will go to them." Ariel
Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting
of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party,
Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.


22. "It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to
public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain
number of facts that are forgotten with time. The
first of these is that there is no
Zionism,colonialization or Jewish State without the
eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their
lands." Yoram Bar Porath, Yediot Aahronot, of 14 July
1972.


23. "Spirit the penniless population across the
frontier by denying it employment... Both the process
of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be
carried out discreetly and circumspectly." Theodore
Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization,
speaking of the Arabs of Palestine,Complete Diaries,
June 12, 1895 entry.
by SPLC
A similar lawsuit is being planned against Indymedia and its editors - our goal will be to tie them to recent anti-semitic attacks in California and strip them of their organizational and personal assets

http://www.rickross.com/reference/aryan/aryan28.html

A lawsuit whose declared purpose is to financially cripple the neo-Nazi Aryan Nations and force it to close its fortress-like compound near here goes to trial Monday amidst extraordinary security.

If the lawsuit prevails, a hate group that has been at the forefront of the national white supremacy movement for nearly a quarter century could lose it headquarters just as its aging founder, Richard G. Butler, prepares to surrender the leadership.

The defendants in the lawsuit in Kootenai County Court include not only Butler, an 82-year-old avowed admirer of Adolf Hitler who founded the Aryan Nations in 1977, but also his entire organization as an incorporated entity. They also include Butler's former chief of staff, Michael Teague, and three former Aryan Nations security guards who shot at a local woman and her teenage son two years ago and assaulted and terrorized them after a high-speed car chase at nearby Hayden Lake.

Human rights advocates say that in the atmosphere of hate that accompanies racial conflict, it is important to hold not only the perpetrators of racially motivated crimes accountable, but also the groups that inspire them to act.

Morris Dees, a founder of the Southern Poverty Law Center in Montgomery, Ala., which filed the lawsuit for the victims, declined to comment on the case as jury selection was about to begin. But Dees has repeatedly said in the past that he wields an economic weapon against hate groups and that the purpose of the lawsuit was to win a punitive award so large that it would bankrupt the Aryan Nations.

The shootings occurred July 1, 1998, when Victoria Keenan and her son, Jason, were driving by the compound. Keenan said that when she doubled back toward the entrance after Jason accidentally dropped his wallet out the car's window, her old Datsun backfired.

A truckload of security guards, including Jesse Warfield, John Yaeger, Shane Wright and several other unidentified men, roared out of the Aryan Nations compound in a truck and chased the Keenans for two miles down a country road, firing at them until hitting a tire and forcing the car into a ditch.

Keenan, 43, was struck with the butt of a gun and dragged out of the car by her hair while her son, now 20, was beaten by guards who shouted, "Don't mess with Aryans," according to testimony at the criminal trials that convicted Warfield, 44, and Yaeger, 22, of aggravated assault. They are serving prison sentences, while Wright is still a fugitive.

Keenan said that after she pleaded with the guards to take her but leave her son, one of them said, "Because you're white we're going to let you live today."

The Keenans are seeking damages for assault, battery, false imprisonment, intentional infliction of emotional distress and reckless and negligent conduct. Butler was named a defendant because the plaintiffs believe he should be accountable for his security guards' actions.

Human rights groups are increasingly filing lawsuits aimed at bankrupting hate groups by holding their leaders accountable for crimes committed by their followers. In some cases, juries have handed up huge compensatory and punitive awards that have effectively silenced the racist groups.

A pattern has evolved in which racist leaders like Butler have been unable to avoid such judgments by claiming that the First Amendment protects incendiary rhetoric that incites hate crimes by others. Using conspiracy laws, plaintiffs have convinced juries that white supremacy leaders of groups like the Ku Klux Klan are liable not because of their racist beliefs but because of their acts or their knowledge of the acts of others that lead to hate crimes.

In recent years, civil suits filed by Dees and his center on behalf of hate-crime victims have bankrupted or financially crippled a half dozen or more white supremacy groups. They include a $15 million judgment in 1998 against Horace King, South Carolina leader of the Christian Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, for participating in a conspiracy to burn black churches, and a $12.5 million award in 1990 to the family of an Ethiopian student killed in Portland, Ore., by a skinhead gang organized by the California-based White Aryan Resistance (WAR), led by neo-Nazis Tom and John Metzger. In 1994, the U.S. Supreme Court refused to review the Metzgers' appeal of the award and WAR's assets were seized and distributed primarily to the victim's son.

In 1991, Butler created Saphire Inc. to own and control the 19-acre Aryan Nations compound, which is worth an estimated $200,000. He has said he hopes his legacy will continue operating after his death, and that the corporation was intended to keep his assets "away from the anti-Christ Jews." Butler says that his legal fees have put him $50,000 into debt, and that he has been putting $600 of his $800 monthly Social Security check into a defense fund. In addition, the Hayden Lake property has a $65,000 lien for Butler's unpaid legal bills.

Attendance at Aryan Nations gatherings has diminished steadily, and there are signs that the heart of the white supremacy movement has begun to move elsewhere, according to the Poverty Law Center's intelligence report. Aryan Nations lost more than half its state chapters in 1997, retaining only 13, the center said.

In an appeal for defense fund donations, the Aryan Nations Web site warns that "the barbarians are at the gate."

Last month, at a "World Congress" that attracted about 100 Aryan Nations followers and their families to Hayden Lake, Butler's designated successor, Neuman Britton, leader of the California Aryan Nations branch, called the incident with the Keenans a "setup" planned by "the forces of Morris Dees" to provide grounds for a lawsuit.

On his Web site, Butler contends that Dees and his "Marxist anti-Christ anti-White Jewish cabal" had engineered a "contrived trial brought solely for the purpose of bankrupting a small Christian organization."

An Aryan Nations spokesman said Butler will not give any "free interviews" during the trial, but will talk to any reporter willing to pay $100 into the defense fund. When told The Washington Post does not pay for interviews, the spokesman, who said that his name was Rick but that it was "inappropriate" to ask for his last name, said, "You don't have any trouble charging people for the stories you write about us."

Earlier this month, the plaintiffs won a key ruling when District Judge Charles Hosack said the plaintiffs will be allowed to seek punitive damages as well as compensatory damages. This means the Keenans will be able to present witnesses in an attempt to show that Warfield, Yaeger and Wright were acting as agents or employees of the Aryan Nations at the time of the assault.

Aryan Nations attorney Edgar Steele argued that the security guards were volunteers, not employees, and acted on their own contrary to a written Aryan Nations policy. Thus, there is no direct negligence on the part of Butler or his group, Steele argued in a preliminary hearing.

The attorney also told the court the guards were poor, uneducated, "disaffected members of our society" who did not realize what they were doing.

Human rights leaders hailed the lawsuit for sending a strong message to white supremacy groups.

"It's important because it is about holding hate-group leaders accountable for the actions of their followers. If financial remuneration [to victims] takes their resources away, that's what happens," said Bill Wassmuth, a former Coeur d'Alene Catholic priest whose house was bombed by Aryan Nations members in 1986. Wassmuth, founder of a human rights group that became the Northwest Coalition for Human Dignity, said, "It's not going to signal the end of white supremacy, but it will have an impact on limiting its effect on society."

Wassmuth said that the Butler followers who bombed his rectory were convicted, but that he did not sue the Aryan Nations. "I've always wondered if that was the right decision, and whether I could have saved some lives," said Wassmuth, who co-wrote a book on the Aryan Nations, "Hate is My Neighbor."

by not fooled
Please see the jewish people at the following link: http://www.stopafghanwar.net/Media/AuthenticJews.html

Are they "anti-semitic", or "self-hating jews", or some other thing? I think they are heroic for protesting the zionist state.

zionism is a political movement that incorporates racism. Being semitic, in contrast, is a racial characteristic. They are not the same thing. ALL racism is bad - even (and perhaps especially) that of the zionists.

I can't believe zionists have the nerve to try to defend their cause. Only fools and ignorants are capable of believing their lies and propaganda - and they already have enough of those.

It's past time that America divorced itself from Israel, especially monetarily. I see that some good-minded people are already doing so, at http://www.boycottisraeligoods.org/index.php
by Iblis
I think you all should think like A. Fleischer above...

I love zionists they are my biggest fans
by Bob
Thank you Indymedia for enlightening us with the latest leftwing intellectual thought.
by Chris Hildreth
Believe me attempting to retain one's land when armed only with 7.92/5.56mm AK-47/74's & without A/T weapons while going up against MBT's armed w/120mm cannon is a LEETLE difficult. Might is Right! Sieg Heil or the Yiddish translation thereof! To think I once supported Israel fervently! How wrong I was.
by CH
Substitute the word "despise" for the more emotive "hate". Or do you make the mistake of believing your own propaganda like the Nazis and Commufascists before you?
by King_Papa
This is a Definition of the word Zionism from the Mirriam-Webster Dictionary web site.

One entry found for Zionism.


Main Entry: Zi·on·ism
Pronunciation: 'zI-&-"ni-z&m
Function: noun
Date: 1896
: an international movement orig. for the establishment of a Jewish national or religious community in Palestine and later for the support of modern Israel
- Zi·on·ist /-nist/ adjective or noun
- Zi·on·is·tic /"zI-&-'nis-tik/ adjective
by Hey
These tacics are very familiar.

First of all, A. Fleischer is probably an Anti-Israel propagandists masquerading as an Israeli to make Israelis look bad. I disagree with his sentiments and conclusions, and I am a Zionist.

(No, I do not believe that people who post the anit-Semitic crap are ZIonists masquerading as anti-Semites- that's just too far fetched, and rationalization for letting the garbage continue)

Some people responded to Dave's good analysis of the situation by gibbering: "But Zionism is racism, it has to be, 'cause I say it over and over again, duh!"

Another person still hasn't learned what Anti-Semitism means. But I'm pleased to see Papa used a dictionary to find the definition of Zionism. Papa, could you look up Anti-Semitism too for this crowd?

For those of you who are too lazy, I'll provide it here. I'm constantly restating this, people are constantly ignoring it.

The Jews did not invent the term Anti-Semitism. Anti-Semitism was coined by a 19th century German Jew-hater, Wilhelm Marr, to describe his Jew hating. The reason was that Jew-hatred was a term that was sounding disrespectful, so a more scientific term like Anti-Semitism made Jew hating sound okay again. (Just like now, Anti-Semitism sounds disrespectful, so people call themselves Anti-Zionists)

Marr, the Nazis, and nearly all of anti-Semites had nothing against the Arabs; only the unique hatred reserved for Jews. This is why the dictionary describes Anti-Semitism as prejudice against the Jews, not against all Semitic races. It's very seldom to see people hate Arabs AND Jews for being Semites. Prejudice against either one has their own unique qualities.

No, I agree, Anti-Semitism isn't the best of terms. But it's what we have, so we're stuck with it. Just like Homophobia isn't a very good term either; 'phobia' means fear, so what you have is fear of homosexuals. But fear is not the term of hate. To really be a homophobic, I might run in fear from a homosexual. But that doesn't mean I'll taunt one or beat them up. What kind of defense would that be at a hate crime trial? "Your honor, I'm not homophobic, because I'm not afraid of homosexuals. I just hate them."

As for those who make the even more ridiculous claim: "I'm not anti-Semitic, I have nothing against Arabs." So you only hate Jews? That makes it ok? That's like me saying: "I'm not racist, I only hate blacks, but Asians are okay, and they're another race too." Ludicrous.

Yes, Arabs are Semites. But the term that came down to us, "Anti-Semitism" refers to Jews. Does this mean there's no words to refer to prejudice against Arabs? Of course not. There's an Arab advocacy group in the United States called the American Arab Anti-Discrimination committee. You want to call someone prejudiced against Arabs? Call them an anti-Arab hater. That's fine. It makes sense anyway; the negative stereotypes people associate Arabs with are different from the negative stereotypes people associate with Jews, there really isn't that much overlap.
by King_Papa
Since he asked me in a polite maner I'll do this.

But I'm going to Put both definitions from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary. This is so you people can learn the differance.

If your wondering what the site is its: http://www.webster.com

One entry found for anti-Semitism.


Main Entry: an·ti-Sem·i·tism
Pronunciation: "an-ti-'se-m&-"ti-z&m, "an-"tI-
Function: noun
Date: 1882
: hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group
- an·ti-Se·mit·ic /-s&-'mi-tik/ adjective
- an·ti-Sem·ite /-'se-"mIt/ noun

One entry found for Zionism.


Main Entry: Zi·on·ism
Pronunciation: 'zI-&-"ni-z&m
Function: noun
Date: 1896
: an international movement orig. for the establishment of a Jewish national or religious community in Palestine and later for the support of modern Israel
- Zi·on·ist /-nist/ adjective or noun
- Zi·on·is·tic /"zI-&-'nis-tik/ adjective
by enlightened
As you must know, political realities on the ground are usually different from the book definition. Trying to justify hard political realities with dictionary definitions is ignorant. However, showing the differences that exist between hard political realities and dictionary definitions does help to expose the inconsistencies and faults of the failed political movement.

I lived in apartheid South Africa for a while and witnessed how awful things were over there. The apartheid government of S.A. tried to hide as well, by claiming to actually be a democracy and an victim group too. Thank God all that has changed now.

Many years later I also lived in Israel for some time and saw firsthand the absolutely terrible apartheid condition and Israeli racism that exists there. Please believe me that the situation is currently worse in Israel than it was in apartheid South Africa.

I now live in America and I'm shocked by how the American media appears to actually hide these things about Israel from the American people. I realize it sounds troublingly conspiratorial, but coming over here showed me that the American media is literally somehow trying to hide it, and I don't know why they are doing that. They cover it up, put a pro-Israeli "spin" on the Israeli crimes, and suppress other stories that show the true situation. They also ignore the situation of just how many Israelis, both civilian and military, are disgusted with their criminal government and their evil policies of discrimination and racist treatment against the native Palestinian people. This is a terrible disservice to the American people, misleading them like that and reporting the facts in a false way.

Believe me, plenty of Israelis don't support the current apartheid situation imposed by their governement and their militant jewish fundamentalists... but just like here in America, there is simply nothing they can do about it. The "normal citizenry" simply doesn't have the power to overcome a corrupt political establishment. In fact, many of them have found out first-hand that if they speak out against their evil government, they will become subject to arrest and torture by the Israeli government just like the Palestinians are suffering. Some of them have just "disappeared" after being arrested by the Israeli police.

The hard truth is that the current situation is just like the above zionist quotations describe. Most zionists know this, and try desparately hard to cover it up when it is exposed in public. However, some zionists are ignorant of these realities, simply because they have not seen it firsthand, or have become victims of a sustained propaganda campaign by a very rich and powerful zionist lobby in America. In fact, some jews are even raised to think that their religion mandates supporting the zionist political movement, which of course is simply not true.

If more jews from America knew what the situation is really like over there in Israel, they would have a lot less positive feeling for the zionist political movement. In fact, true American jews were historically always against zionism, and very many currently are today as well. You can, for example, see some of this by looking at the website http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com

The problem here in America seems to currently be that the zionist movement has penetrated the media (TV, movies, print) for some time, and now influences public opinion to become literally ignorant of what real-world zionism in actual fact really is all about "on the street" (aside from some dictionary definition), and what the relationship currently is between racist and militant zionism, and the billions of your American tax dollars that fund it.

The jewish Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith (i.e. the "ADL"), along with other current zionist movements, is currently campaigning extremely hard to make unaware Americans believe that 'anti-zionism' is the same thing as 'anti-semitism'. They want VERY badly to try and convince ignorant Americans that these two terms are the same, because they have gotten so incredibly much mileage out of the term 'anti-semitism'. They are desparately afraid of having their true colors exposed to the American public, which would be a disaster for them.

That's why, whenever anti-zionism is mentioned, the zionist tactic is to always immediately inject words like "hate" and "anti-semitism" and "Nazis" and other loaded terms into the conversation, in any desparate way that they can do it. This will suddenly charge the conversation, and the zionist wishes to confuse the various topics by doing this. Look for it - you will always see the zionists respond in this way. It is a rehearsed tactic of theirs, and is very predictable too.

However, true anti-zionism is much, much different than anti-semitism and much, much different than any form of hate, no matter how desparately the ADL or any other zionist group wants to try and fool Americans otherwise. That is why so many Israelis, as well as jews around the rest of the world, are anti-zionist - but obviously are not anti-semites, or haters, or Nazis, or child-molesters, etc. That is also why so many arabs and persians are anti-semites but obviously are not anti-semites or any of those other terms either.

If you believe that being against the racist political movement of zionism somehow makes you a racist yourself, or an anti-semite, or a hater, or a Nazi, or a bad person, etc. than you are either ignorant or "intellectually challenged" or both.

It is zionism itself that is racist and promoting hate. Zionism is anti-semitism. Zionism is racism. That is what the actual real-world situation shows. First-hand experience will make this completely obvious to everyone.

It is wrong to support zionism or any other form of hate or racism. It is because we don't support hate or racism that we do not support zionism.

Zionism has been exposed for what it really is, a hate-movement full of racism and supremacy delusions. Of course, zionism will (as always) try to hide and cover itself, by loudly crying that it is actually YOU who are racist, hating, etc. for being against them. However, at the end of the day, their strategy is weak and can't sustain itself - since you simply can't hide from the truth, period.
by Bob
Hey - your arguments are sensible and logical and the vast majority of intellegent people will agree with you. However, you will have little success talking sense into any of the mad Jew-haters on this board - who for all we know could be members of the National Alliance or simply emotionally disturbed individuals. Good luck anyway.
by enlightened
You see? There's somebody (Bob) who is trying hard to make an anti-zionist stance seem unpopular, or an anti-jew thing, or a "hate stance", etc.

That's crazy to say things like that. But like I also said above, it's a desparate tactic by zionists to hide themselves from the truth about what they really are.

Don't support racism or hate. Zionists are real haters and emotionally disturbed individuals, and the vast majority of Americans are beginning to see this. Regardless of when zionists desparately and pathetically try to claim the exact opposite to be true.
by Enlightened
The vast majority of intelligent people agree with you, and others are just finally learning about the fact that Zionism is racism and manifests itself in the hideous ethnic cleansing that has been ongoing since the creation of Zionist Israel, which many Jews do not support, as you pointed out.

There IS something we intelligent people with consciences CAN DO! Talk, write, teach, sign petitions and join all the rallies that are happening to happen that EXPOSE Zionism as the racism that it is!

The Ultra-Orthodox Jews have had many demonstrations showing how anti-Israel and anti-Zionism they are--- they even burn the Israeli flag at their demonstrations! Most of them live in New York, but there are many in Jerusalem that refuse to become Israeli citizens, refuse to send their children to Israeli schools, do not register births or deaths with the Israeli government, do not recognize the right for Israel to exist. Many lived there in peace with the Palestinians before the Zionists came with their racist policies. Check them out: http://www.netureikarta.org

Hey, and organize your own rallies, teach-ins, sit-ins, be-ins, whatever! They are happening worldwide, and the aim is to bring an end to all racism and that includes Zionism, which is the most harmful form of racism today now because of the massive military and monetary aid our government is giving to Israel. Now they are asking for another $14 BILLION! We must get out in the streets and protest this outrageous support of an apartheid country like Israel!
by lol
You quote NEUTRI KARTI to proove 'Zionists' are racists??? I think really you MUST be aCIA agent!
by King_Papa
I'm not trying to justify reality with dictionary definitions, what I was trying to say is that a word that means one thing has been compleatly transformed into something else by society, and ingnorant is saying that Isreal is right be whatever means necisarry(forgive the god awfull spelling it was one thing I could never get the hang of) to justify the outcome.

But I will not denie Isreal the right to exist, jews have been forced out of countries for centuries, think it is only right that they have a home of there own, and for some reason the Kurds are to the middle east what the jews where to europe, and yes I also believe that should have a home to call their own and they almost did got that opportunity in norther Iraq but then Suddam decided to use chemical weapons on them.

But anyway back to Isreal, they do have the right to exist, yes they do, even if the palistinian mandate by the UN was an illeagle one.

In my oppinion the Isreali Settlements are a form of colonializm. And if the palistinians want a home that bad then they should overthrow the Jordanian government(95% of Jordan's population is palistinian anyways), annex Gaza and declare it all Palistine. But no thats unethical isn't it.

But when America was expanding it's border no one ever gave a rats ass about the native population. But wait america is now one of the greatest countries on earth, thats why they told ppl like my grandfather to "Kick Rocks" and then put him in a "Indian" bording school.

But thats not the point. The point is that, you can criticize them all you want about their motives, their actions, their mantality, and esspecially their government. But I dont thing we can question a nations existance.

And the United States must support Isreal, because the moment we don't, the arab world is going to slaughter them all. They have tried 3 times already who is to say they wont succeed when and if we abanden them.




by one of the editors
A comment by "Dr. Donna Pierce" was just hidden because it was anti-Semitic.
by enlightened
Thanks for your comment, and appreciate the clarification very much. I do respect your opinions too.

I agree that there is nothing wrong with the creation of a PEACEFUL country called Israel which jews around the world can travel to and live within if they wish. In fact, the arab population historically lived in peace with the jews for most of their time together, and today would be greatly happy to do so as well. This would have been the very best solution, if only the zionists had ever been willing to even consider it.

There is a myth in the media right now that when Israel was founded, the arab population for some reason just simply tried to slaughter the jews and still wishes to do so. In fact you know, that's not exactly the case, and leaves out the most important fact - namely, just HOW the Israeli state was founded 'on the ground'. It was the zionist immigrants (mostly european) who came to the arab land and, after promising to create a society of equals for jews and arabs together, then instead took it by brute force - with mass killing, destruction, and merciless cruelty. They are still pushing outside of their borders and creating more and more illegal "settlements" (with American tax dollars), bringing still more death and destruction. The jewish "settlers" today say that they have the right, given to them by God himself, to kill the local arabs with impunity. They continue to ambush innocent families who drive by on local roads, shooting into their cars with automatic rifles. Poisoning of local wells, resulting in the agonizing death of the innocent local arab population, is another favorite of the militant jewish fundamentalist settlers. They are not allowed to go to school, go to the hospital, go to the stores, go from one town to the other to see relatives. Do you deny these locals the right to exist?

Zionism, as it's being practiced, demands a 'racially-pure' state of jewish people only, where being jewish is established by birth (whether or not you had a jewish mother). It sanctions a master-and-slave class arrangement at the expense of the native population, who are forced to live in ghettos, receive a fraction of the water that a jewish person receives, not own property or farms or businesses, not receive decent employment, not receive equal rights. Zionism claims that everyone who isn't jewish by birth is classified as one of "the beasts of the earth" given to them by God to be used for their own pleasure. Zionism claims that only jews are human beings with souls, and that all others are contemptible and to be treated as animals.

Almost a million Palestinian refugees resulted from the forcible invasion of non-semitic zionists to the newly created country of Israel. Next came the complete destruction of these native's homes, farms, and property - much of which had been in their familys for over 30 generations. Many of these local Palestinians still live in the outskirts, in unsanitary shanty-towns built next to where they used to live in wealth and security. Everything, and I mean everything, was taken away from them by force. Many of them watched in horror as their family members were ruthlessly killed in an attempt by the zionists to further terrorize them into leaving more quickly. This is a practice still seen today.

The Israeli gov't is currently talking again about carrying out another such "transfer policy" which will essentially kick out the remaining Israeli citizens who are not of a jewish mother, and particularly arab-israelis. Further, the Israeli gov't is constantly encouraging America to attack the Arab countries, and is the primary voice driving our country to attack Iraq, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, and now even Egypt, Jordan, and the UAE. They are planning to use any American attack on Iraq as a chance to carry out their renewed attacks on the local Palestinian natives.

The net result of all this is that the local arab populations are legitimately very, very angry at the zionists. Anybody who agrees with the bloody expansionist, racially-motivated, 'God told us we could kill them' mentality of the zionists is (in my opinion) a monster and the worst kind of human being.

In spite of it all, the arab population (and many, many of the Israeli citizens) would be extremely happy with a government that would simply allow everyone to live together peacefully with equal rights and democratic values. This, I think, really would be the best solution. In fact, I also think it would be the only solution to stop the violence and cycle of hatred. But zionism is simply not about peace and democracy - it's about a jews-only society, where no crime is too terrible to realize their vision for their master-race society (yes, those are the actual words being used by rabbis in Israel to describe their goal). And America, for some reason (I really can't understand why we do this) is always more than willing to continue supplying Israel with more and more tax dollars and weaponry to enable them to continue the killing.

I've been there, I have seen all of this for myself. Front-line witnessing of all this is something most zionists living in this country do not have. The American media, for some reason I cannot understand, does not report any of these things - instead they put a pro-Israeli spin on everything (I just don't get that). Further, the worst kind of human beings are given the chance to voice their zionist views in the media. Some zionists even post their nonsense in forums like this, and try to say that everyone else is the racist and haters (what a lie).

If I hadn't actually seen all of this firsthand, and had to rely on the American media to inform me, I probably would be just as clueless as most of the American public is about what is really going on over there. If we could all see what was actually happening, I'm absolutely sure that the good American public would immediately rally against it with all the force and fury that was previously expressed against South Africa. It's not the American public's fault that they are misinformed, and there must be a way to help the public see the truth about the real-world situation as it actually is over there.

Is there no hope? I'm serious about that question. It seems like perhaps there really isn't any...
by Hey
Enlightened... you claim to have "seen this first hand"

But you're wrong.

The stories that Zionists tell, about Jews coming to Palestine, buying land and cultivating it is far closer to the truth than your hogwash that the Jews just happened to show up and slaughter Arabs indiscriminately.

It's been well documented. The version your telling is untrue. There really is no other way to put it.

by enlightened
Hello there 'Hey', and thanks for the reply.

I agree there are some instances of what you say regarding purchasing/cultivating of land, etc. and those particular cases are usually very, very well documented by a self-conscious zionist political movement in order to try and cover up the much more frequent past and present killings, terrorizing, and theft of Palestian property, land, and lives. They document the legit instances with an extremely definite agenda in mind, and avoid documenting the much more frequent criminal ones for what I'm sure are obvious reasons. A few Israeli reporters actually have previously written about it though... most were immediately fired, and some just "disappeared" after being "questioned" by the Israeli police and/or mossad (it's often hard to tell which they are). Naturally, the reporters are fearful of ever writing on such things anymore - especially regarding the terrorizing of Palestinian families by the militant fundamentalist jewish "settlers". Often the Israeli reporters joke about how their American media counterparts are the most effective branch of the entire Israeli gov't! (Yes I know, ha, ha, very funny you guys)

The only way people here can get a true glimpse of what it is really like over there is to either see for yourself (difficult), or else see through the American media filter (even more difficult?), or look to the sources of your info and make a much more informed opinion/conclusion.

However, like I said above and as evidenced by your reply, I feel quite a bit of despair about it all when I hear/see/read opinions of otherwise well-meaning people like yourself who innocently don't know what is really going on over there. If you knew the reality of it, I think it could probably bring tears to your eyes - it's really that bad. The Israeli government is so full of race-hate, bigotry, and cruelty that I can't believe they are supported by the American government - and I just don't see why they receive such support either.

Anyway, thanks for your thoughts though - and I certainly understand what has led you to feel that way. Let's both hope neither one of us ever has to experience what the Palestinian people, as well as dissident Israeli citizens, have to go through on a daily basis. Nobody deserves that.
by Hey
Not to mention Israeli citizens who are blown up by your poor little freedom fighter Palestinians who don't know any other type of protest but murder.

But Enlightened, let me explain something to you.

Anyone familiar with the history of Anti-Semitism could hardly avoid being chilled by your expose.

Why do I say this? It's because of one of your claims.

You claimed that the Zionists poisoned Arab wells.

Why is this chilling?

Because for many years in Europe, this was one of the Anti-Semitic slanders spread by the church and others. They claimed the Jews, locked up in their ghettos, were poisoning the wells.

No basis in fact, just an epithet in order to generate hatred of Jews.

But now it came back. From you. You may think you're quoting history. But I say it has no basis in fact, and you came up with it for the same reason: to generate hatred of Jews. The lies are too similar for anyone who actually knows something.

You may think this barb of yours has its base in history.

I believe it's root is from an altogether different source.
by TA
"who don't know any other type of protest but murder"

wrong. Palestinians protest peacefully and - according to eye-witness testimony, are sometimes shot at with live ammunition by the soldiers.

It isn't THAT hard to figure out - if IDF soldiers KILL children throwing rocks, what do you think they do to adults who are peacefully protesting?

I know people who have attended protests with the Palestinians and have witnessed extremely violent measures against protestors.

Have you yourself ever even BEEN to a protest? Anywhere?
by Peiper
KNESSET MOVES TO BAR ARAB MEMBERS

Israel's impending general election is colouring committee hearings on the expulsion and barring of three 'hostile' parliamentarians

Chris McGreal in Jerusalem

Monday December 30, 2002
The Guardian

The knesset has begun proceedings to bar three Arab members and their parties from next month's general election because of their support for the Palestinian resistance to Israeli occupation.

The hearings by a knesset committee are expected to result in the expulsion of Israel's leading Arab politician, Azmi Bishara, and two colleagues. Their parties are likely to be banned, stripping Israel's one million Arabs of their principal voices in parliament.

Mr Bishara has already been stripped of his parliamentary immunity and put on trial for alleged crimes against the state. If he is now banned from the knesset, he and his colleagues will be the first Arab members to be expelled. The knesset has previously banned extreme rightwing Jewish parties and politicians.

The Labour opposition says that expulsion could create "turmoil" and an "uprising" by Israeli Arabs who believe they are being denied democratic rights.

The ostensible reason for barring Mr Bishara and his National Democratic Assembly is his attendance at the funeral of President Hafez Assad of Syria in June 2000, when he made a speech in which he implicitly endorsed the Hizbullah military campaign that drove Israel out of southern Lebanon two years ago.

He also accused the Israeli government of resorting to war against Palestinians, and said they were left with little choice but to escalate the struggle against occupation.

He called on Arab countries to unite behind the resistance.

"There is no possibility of continuing with the... way of resistance other than by means of the renewed expansion of this sphere, so that people will be able to struggle and carry out resistance," he said.

The Israeli attorney general, Elyakim Rubenstein, told the knesset that Mr Bishara's support for "resistance" endorsed suicide bombings, and his call for Arab backing was an invitation to destroy the state.

Mr Bishara says resistance to occupation is a recognised right under international law and that it can take many forms.

"I never called for armed struggle. I have always opposed the suicide bombs in writing and in speaking, and the targeting of civilians in general," he said.

"What I did do is show understanding of the option of resistance to occupation, which referred to strikes, demonstrations, mass rallies, even studies.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,866422,00.html
by Hey
I was at protests. I've seen Palestinian protests that cheer at the death of Israelis.

I've seen Palestinians urge the expellation of Jews.

I've seen Black Moslems spread the lie that Israel bombed the World Trade Center.

And I was present at a Pro-Israel rally, the May 7th rally at SFSU when Palestinians pushed us against the wall, shouting "Hitler didn't finish the job," and "Burn Fuckers Burn" , during a rally where they also shouted "Shame on you" at a survivor of the Holocaust.

Really sweet people.

And by the way, your factoids are full of shit, just like you.

Did you know that Palestinian snipers shoot bullets at the Israeli soldiers, from behind the little rock throwerrs?

Did you know that they use their children as human shields to attract international sympathy (from morons like you)

Probably not.
"I was present at a Pro-Israel rally, the May 7th rally at SFSU"

Then you must have heard the many remarks from the peaceful Israel supporters about camel jockeys, sand niggers, etc. You must have seen the grotesque racist cartoonish drawings on posterboard of Arabs and camels. You must have seen the many students angered that the Isreali flag that was put up on the student union building and the refusal of the Isreal supporters to take it down when people began to chant. Instead, they stood under the flag with arms folded and did nothing. At that point the police had to intervene as the crowd grew more and more infuriated.

Normally I would try to present both sides when discussing this rally, but since you've tried to use it as a tool for more misinformation, I won't bother.

by Hey
I present my side, because after their clear overstep of boundaries, the Palestinian students employed deceit and lies to try to make their behavior "acceptable."

One or two Jewish students made the camel jockey remark. We NEVER chanted it as a crowd.
That's your lie#1

Nor were there any posters depicting camels or Arab in compromising positions that you claim. That's your lie#2.

Now it is true that we had an Israeli flag on the building. (Which I suppose in your bigoted universe should merit the death penalty) And they did chant at us to take it down, even though we still had the plaza until 3:00.

But we did NOT fold our arms and wait.
That's your lie#3.

We sang peace songs: Oseh Shalom and Henah Mahtov.
Not that any of your deceitful friends would mention that.

We took down the flag at EXACTLY 3:00... the time when we no longer had the plaza. It was reserved for us from 1:00 to 3:00, and we didn't take it down until we no longer had it, even though your "friends" intruded in on there trying to force us out.

You might be able to lie about this rally to someone who wasn't there and expect to be believed. But I was there, so your lies don't work. Don't try to pretend there was a moral equivalence, because, plain and simply, there wasn't.

Though I'm sure it may help your fragile self esteem to pretend there was.
by enlightened
To 'Hey' above, it's easy to see that you are very angry and full of hate. I wish you the best in getting through it in the end. Sorry if I touched a nerve by sharing the information by sharing direct experiences.

I'm very new to this forum, and so for all I know it's used by lots of racists and hate-filled people. Perhaps, if that is true, it would explain your apparent instinctive hostility toward discussing these facts.

Has anyone else ever noticed that when zionists get backed into a corner, they always start using the word "chilling" (sounds scary I guess)? Next they will try VERY hard, at all costs really, to somehow bring in "anti-semitism" into the conversation (even when it has nothing to do with the topic discussed). It's just a pattern I've noticed.

It also seems that zionists in America are infatuated with the notion of jews being always victims, somehow being always oppressed by mindless and heartless societies that they always seem to accidentally find themselves suddenly appearing within and being trapped inside, etc. I think that when these same zionists in America are confronted nowadays with the realities of zionist racism and evils coming from Israel itself, then this "perpetual victim status" security blanket suddenly loses its merit and validity in today's world. As this "perpetual victim status" is so deeply engrained in the self-identity of these types, this explains their defensiveness and hostile responses to a large degree. After all, it exposes that they are no different than anybody else, and this is a deeply disturbing proposition to them.

Israeli citizens do not share this mindset with the American zionists, as they don't think it is either accurate or helpful. Only in America do zionists take this "perpetual victim" tactic, using anti-semitism as a defense against all forms of discussion of facts or faults. Most Israelis wish the American zionists would simply stop doing that, because it's kind of "getting old" - if you understand what I mean.

About the recent poisonings of Palestinian family wells by Israeli settlers: Even in Israel the citizens are very aware of Israeli settlers poisoning the wells. It is aknowledged by the government and nobody questions its truth or reality. It is a documented fact. A huge number of Palestian families have suffered and died horrible deaths as a result of this Israeli "tactic". One Israeli settler was only fined a small fee for killing 7 members of a Palestian family this way, including a 4 month old infant and a 2 year old girl. This outraged a large number of both Israeli citizens and Palestinian locals, who each thought that the settler should receive life imprisonment (at least).

The problem is, these Israeli settlers claim that their hideous crimes are really OK, by saying that God wants them to kill native non-jews with maximum cruelty and with impunity. They refer to old testament stories of the jews killing "everything that breathes" (men, women, children, even animals) when raiding non-jewish villages and towns - and that God not only told them to commit these murderous acts, but threatened them with wrath of punishment if they did not. How can you get through to people who are killing others under religious superstitions, just like the Crusaders, etc. used to do? They are by definition insane.

The story you mentioned about past European ghetto jews being accused of well-poisoning was actually a new one to me though, thanks for sharing it. I'll of course try to look up that information to confirm it. Either way, I'm always sorry to hear about anybody being slandered with false information (if it was false). It's especially troubling to hear that the church may have been involved.

It is also quite true that the Palestinians have committed very violent reactions including suicide bombings, returning fire, etc in response to the continual aggressions they are suffering. Israeli citizens understand well the cause of this backlash. Most of them greatly wish that their government would stop the government aggression against the Palestinian natives, and also wish that their government would force the ugly militant jewish fundamentalist settlers to either leave the country of Israel altogether, or else face criminal prosecution under Palestinian law for the terrible things they have done, and continue to do, to the native Palestinian families they are constantly attacking. However, Israeli citizens at this time feel completely out of control of their own government, and that the best they can do is try to hope for change coming from an outside source (maybe even from the U.S.) Some Israelis are now even refusing to serve militarily within the occupied territories. But the general feeling is that they feel totally unable to stop the murderous practices of their own government, and there is widespread depression about it.

All of these things are well documented in the Israeli media and public record, and it would be surprising to many Israelis that so many Americans here are unaware of it all. It comes as quite a shock to learn about the American media blackout of information, and the incredibly one-sided pro-Israeli zionist spin that all information receives over here in the U.S. Even in Israel itself, there is not such a media bias.

You say you believe that this information will generate hatred of jews? I disagree. I strongly encourage the sharing of such direct experiences, since so many in America are completely unaware of the real situation over there, because they haven't actually been there and because the American media seems to be in a virtual blackout of this information (for unclear reasons, which I wish somebody would finally explain to me). People deserve to know the truth.

Rather than fearing that exposing today's realities "on the ground" will generate hatred of jews, I say that change of Israeli government policy, and a halt of aggressions from BOTH sides (yes both sides), is what is so desparately needed. We must stop all racism and hate, which is currently coming from both sides. How can anybody, anywhere, disagree with that?
by Bob
Hey - let me repeat an earlier post because I know you're getting frustrated dealing with people who are impervious to reason and can't discuss the policies of the State of Israel without foaming at the mouth - "your arguments are sensible and logical and the vast majority of intellegent people will agree with you. However, you will have little success talking sense into any of the mad Jew-haters on this board - who for all we know could be members of the National Alliance or simply emotionally disturbed individuals. Good luck anyway."
by Chris
Top Ten Areas Where Moslems Actively Persecute Non-Moslems
by James Dunnigan
September 25, 2002

Religious persecution has been around for thousands of years, and few religions have been completely innocent of it. However, currently it is Islam that has shown the most aggressive attitude towards those who don't share their religious beliefs. In practical terms, a lot of religious persecutions over the centuries has been caused more by ethnic, than religious, differences.

But 21st century Islam is unique in that the persecutions focus on the religious issue. This tends to make the persecution more violent. Being on a mission from God tends to increase the level of violence. Radical Islam has always been a component of Islamic life, although usually a fringe type activity. But over the last few decades, the Islamic radicals have increased their power enormously. Radical Moslems have taken over the government in Iran and Afghanistan, and came close in Algeria. Radical Moslems, even when they are a numerical minority, have far greater political power because of their militancy and willingness to use extreme violence. And the easiest people to use violence on are non-Moslems. Here are ten countries where the violence is real, and often quite deadly.

Sudan- For nearly two decades, the Moslems in the north have been fighting to control the non-Moslems (Christians and followers of ancient tribal religions) in the south. Over a million non-Moslems have died as a result.

Kashmir- The Indo-Pakistani dispute over who should control Kashmir has turned into a religious war, with Islamic radicals terrorizing non-Moslems (Hindus, Sikhs and Christians) to leave Kashmir. Thousands have died in the process.

Nigeria- Islam came late to Africa, and Nigeria, like many African countries, has Moslems, Christians and followers of ancient tribal religions. Religious strife has always been present, mainly because of the militant and uncompromising nature of Islam. When decades of dictatorship disappeared in the late 1990s, the Moslems sought to assert themselves and thousands of Christians have died trying to resist this.

Indonesia- Several centuries of Dutch colonial rule, followed by several decades of local dictators kept the violence between Moslems, Christians and others quiet. But once the dictatorship was overthrown in 1998, Islamic radicals have been free to preach, and practice, their hatred of non-Moslems. Thousands have died so far.

Egypt- Ten percent of the population are descended from those that did not to convert to Islam 1200 years ago. These are the Coptic Christians, and since the government lifted restrictions on radical Islam in the 1970s, the Copts have been a regular target of Islamic thugs. Thousands of died and most Copts live in fear.

Pakistan was founded to "protect Islam," and that eventually turned into "death to all non-believers." While this sentiment is held by only a minority of the Pakistani population, it's an aggressive and murderous minority. Moreover, the definition of "non-believer" extends to different flavors of Islam. Thus there has been much killing of Sunni and Shia Moslems by each other. While the government is officially against persecuting non-Moslems, there has not been a major effort to rein in the Islamic radicals. And it was a military government in the 1970s that first officially encouraged the Islamic radicals to do their thing.

Chechnya- Like most of the three dozen ethnic groups in the Caucasus, the Chechens were clannish and hostile to outsiders. Raiding your neighbors was considered acceptable behavior. When the Russians conquered the area, they stopped the raiding and forced the Chechens to accept Christians in their midst. When Chechnya became independent in the mid 1990s, they went back to raiding their neighbors and persecuting local Christians. They went over the line when they let al Qaeda in and tried to establish an Islamic Republic, by force, in the Caucasus. Attacks on Christians continue.

Philippines- While Islam came north from the Moslem East Indies (Indonesia), Spain took over in the north and converted most of the tribes to Christianity. This religious difference has divided the Philippines ever since. The Moslems were never more than a few percent of the Filipino population, and the Moslems are resentful that most of the population is Christian, not Moslem (Islam arrived in the area 300 years before Christianity. As a result, there have long been active efforts by Moslems to drive out Christians living nearby. This often includes murder.

The Balkans- Moslem Turks occupied the Balkans for nearly five centuries and encouraged conversion with tax breaks and government jobs. Many locals accepted the offer and earned the enmity of their Christians neighbors. Although depicted as the underdogs, whenever the Moslems are a majority (as in Kosovo), they persecute the local Christians.

Lebanon- For centuries, Lebanon was a major center of Middle Eastern Christianity. Until about a century ago, Christians were the majority in Lebanon. But prosperity (the Lebanese Christians looked to Europe for educational, commercial and social trends, becoming more economically successful than their Moslem cousins, and thus having fewer kids), and migration (Arab Christians suffered legal discrimination, and the young men in particular were drawn to non-Arab Christian lands like the Americas) led to Moslems equaling the Christian population, and then surpassing it after World War II. This led to a 15 year religious war (1975-90) and continuing hostility towards Arab Christians.

Dishonorable Mention- Saudi Arabia outlaws the practice of any religion but Islam. Get caught holding a non-Islamic religious service and you can be beaten and imprisoned. Crimes committed against non-Moslems are not pursued as vigorously as those against Moslems. The Saudis insist they do not persecute non-Moslems, but they do enforce their laws. A distinction without a difference.
by To Bob
Bob - Don't you know that calling people "jew haters" is itself a form of hate speech? It does not distinguish between those who may hate jews, and those who legitimately criticize Israel and zionism.

It is also a transparent tactic of zionists who wish to suppress intelligent discussion about the crimes of Israel. Sure, says Bob (and others like him), all jews are zionists! Bob you are a liar.

Many who despise Israel are jews, do you think they are jew haters too? I think that it is you are spreading hate for jewish people simply by accusing others of doing so, and for putting them down intellectually if they disagree with your moronic bs.

It also shows how ignorant you are, and how interested you must be in seeing people react to your nonsense.

You shouldn't call people "jew haters" any more than you should call someone a "jew lover". Both are derrogatory and inciteful, and reveal the ugly hatred inside you.

I encourage everybody here to ignore Bob, he just wants to spread hostility and suppress discussion about the truth. Bob, you should be ashamed of yourself, but you probably aren't... we reasonable and intelligent folk do feel mighty sorry for you though.
by Hey
Bob- Yes I got your messages, and I do appreciate them. I'm not sure why I keep butting heads though. Some kind of a compulsion, really.

But what's your reason?


Enlightened:

Now you're making generalized statements about me and other American Zionists. But whatever.

Here's my problem with you and those who support you.

You see, you believe a falsified history. There are many, MANY lies out there, many of which you have been tricked into accepting as truths.

The poisoning of wells is just one example. I pointed that out because, though you may not believe it, Anti-Zionism is the contemporary form of Anti-Semitism. Whereas it used to be "Jews control the world and all its money" now its "Zionists control the world and all its money." Or instead of "Jews poison wells" it's "Zionists poison wells." You change a single word, and you don't realize you're echoing the same exact stereotypes.

That is the problem I have with these so-called anti-Zionists. Look, I once went to some anti-Israel meeting to ask some hard questions. I was nervous back then, because I only just begun my study of the situation. I had a lot of holes in my knowledge, I was still reading a lot (I still am, still do) and I knew there were some very hard topics. Lebanon for example. Or Golda Meir's early responses to Sadat's initiatives. There were hard topics that would be difficult to discuss.

I needn't have worried.

Because the ISO, the group that ran this event, did not talk about the hard topics.

Instead they MADE STUFF UP to damn Israel with.

Do you understand that? They MADE UP LIES! Things that are DEMONSTRABLY untrue. FACTUALLY untrue, things that could easily be checked.

As an example, they claimed the Kibbutz are not really socialist communities. Why? "Because they're Jew only, and Socialism has to be for everyone."

So I talked to a friend of mine who GREW UP on a Kibbutz. I asked him if it was true, if the Kibbutz were Jew only. He looked at me as if I came from another planet. "Of course there are non-Jews on Kibbutz!" he said to me.

Tell that to the ISO.

The same really goes for you. I haven't heard a legitimate complaint from you. Just general statements that demonize Israel, her supporters, and her government.

I said demonize, as in you want to make it sound like Satan's own country, inhuman, evil to the core, rather than realistically criticizing her policies.

Anyone can criticize Israel. They can mention how she could be better, or how she could be worse, and debate policy like anyone else.

But you're not upset with any stand of Israel, though you pretend to be. You're upset with the EXISTANCE of Israel, and NOTHING she does will ever be good for you. Nothing except ending her own existance in a complete capitulation.

Which would be death for millions of Jews, because you don't account for the murderous designs of her enemies.

That's why you're a bigot, and an Anti-Semite, though no doubt you deny being one.

Hell, even the guy who was hear sponsoring the Vanguard News Network, a white-power Jew-hating website, denied being an Anti-Semite.

But you're operating out of prejudice and not reason.

The only information you read is the Palestinian or Arab propaganda. You never read sources that set the record straight.

If you have, you never took them seriously. You believed they were all lies and propaganda, and in your mind they became lies and propaganda.

We don't even have any common ground to believe on. Hey, I saw this kind of fabrication first hand, as soon as the GUPS on May 7th decided to try sugar-coating their outrageous behavior, and trying to make up stuff that the Israeli supporters did, that frankly didn't happen. And I know it didn't happen, because I was there, and I was a witness. I already pointed out your three lies above there, and I don't need any sources for that, because my two eyes are my source.

Now if only you could clear the blinders from your eyes, Mr. UNenlightened
by King_Papa
Her is something kind of disturbing but truley sad, what makes it funky is that its true. You all can do the research, all of these have been documented by media groups all over the world.
I think that before palistine can be a member of the international community it should drop the PLO, Hezzbula, Hammas, and Palistinian Islamic Jihad, and send Arrafat packing back to Egypt where he is FROM. Then turn around and ask the internation communtiy "How do we rebuild a nations crippled hope and economy?" At the same time Isreal should annex the west bank, and offset the gaza border with the same amount of land, and remove all of the settlers from the west bank. But nobody wants to do that.
by enlightened
To 'Hey', I'm starting to wonder, are you even reading the posts I've made above? Because it sounds like you are not.

I'm certainly not speaking for "all anti-zionists", I'm only speaking for myself and sharing my own experiences. Why would you try to lump my opinions with others like that? Doing so shows an inability to effectively discuss things with other people, who may not have any idea of what you've gone through in the past.

The current and recent poisoning of Palestinian family wells by Israeli settlers is a documented fact. I can't speak for your story of past accusations in Europe of this, etc (and in fact wasn't even aware of any of that), but the current practicing of this crime is well known in Israel (with several convictions of Israelis, and many innocent Palestinian deaths to show for it). If you doubt this at all, it is a simple matter to contact any friends you have in Israel to confirm it (if you have any?). If you think I was repeating something I heard about the past, you're totally wrong - I was reporting on what the Israeli news is currently reporting. Don't know why you said any of those things, except for you perhaps just being intolerant of reality.

Anti-zionism is NOT the contemporary form of anti-semitism. You should know that. The ADL wants people to believe that, since they are one of the most organized pro-zionist agencies of Israel operating here in America. However, you should want to know the truth, and that includes the fact that a great many Israelis are considering themselves anti-zionist right now - as well as a very large number of American jews as well. This is extremely easy for you to see by checking any of the websites devoted to this truth - such as http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com or the several others mentioned above. Have you even checked these sources for yourself?

The problem is that zionism has, in the real world, turned into a form of racism and discrimination. We plain-ol' normal Israeli citizens do not agree with zionism in its current form. Our government has apparently gone insane, and we want to re-establish control over its policies that are making our entire country look terrible, and stop its murderous actions which are completely against our religious teachings.

To say that anti-zionism is somehow equivalent to anti-semitism is a major insult to so many thousands of jews around the world, including (and especially) those of us within Israel. Please stop doing that. It is not only an ignorant and nonsensical charge, but you also seem to be saying that anti-zionism is not a legitimate stance, even for us Israelis to take - without us all being against jews or even against our own selves. Can't you see how wrong and ignorant you are about that? Again, if you just can't seem to perceive these things that are right there in front of you, then you really need to try and somehow get over whatever past things you've seen in your "anti-Israel rallies", etc. - and take a time-out to check with the actual facts, and most especially, with the actual Israeli people you are referring to and misrepresenting badly when you speak. You could also read a non-right-wing online Israeli publication (they're not that hard to find - just take some time to look).

You say that I am making generalized statements about you and other American zionists. Well, I guess that you're probably right. I do apologize for doing that, since not all American zionists are categorically the same breed, etc. Thanks for pointing that out.

But please, you must also see then, that you are - in turn - making extreme generalized statements about anti-zionists as well. So you should also please stop with the blanket generalizations. It is extremely insulting to myself and other Israeli citizens, both here and abroad, to hear American zionists saying things that don't at all represent the views of the actual Israelis themselves. You must decide whether you support us or not - and the way you tell it, it sure sounds like you are much more extreme about zionism than even the majority of Israeli citizens are. I'm wondering where you got your opinions, because you certainly are NOT representing us in Israel, let me tell you. Your opinions would in fact embarass most Israelis if they heard you speaking them.

I am not at all upset with the existence of Israel. You had no right to accuse me of that, and you made yourself look kind of ridiculous by saying it. I am entirely for the existence of a state of Israel that is not apartheid and discriminatory and racist in its policies. Once again, I am speaking for a great many Israelis right now as well as for myself when I say that. You are not speaking for Israelis. We really do not need you to be saying things like that, things that make general Israelis look bad. You know, our current extremely right-wing government is, in our opinion, out of control and committing very unpopular and criminal actions against an innocent and segregated local native population. WE DO NOT SUPPORT THESE WRONG POLICIES OF OUR ISRAELI GOV'T. But our government in Israel seems to just not care what the general people think - you see, they are in power now and they have an agenda, and we simply have no power to immediately stop them. I hear a lot of Americans saying they feel the same way about their own government right now too, so perhaps you know a little about what I'm saying here.

That is too bad though, about the "anti-Israel" meeting you attended - but you must see that you can't just blindly use that one experience to make blanket generalizations about all those who disagree with many policies of the Israeli government. I don't know anything about the people you were with at your meeting, but it sounds like they didn't know what they were talking about. Nuff said about that? You should move forward now.

Also, for you to claim that I have either not read source materials, or else have chosen simply to not believe it, is also completely absurd and untrue. Not only have seen firsthand as I keep telling you, but I also regularly converse with family and friends in Israel. Do you do that as well? (Maybe you do, I really am serious about the question. Perhaps we know some of the same people.)

For example, I've seen Palestinian women in Israel getting hit and kicked at the bus stops, getting spit on and called names when they have done nothing at all wrong. I've seen vendors refuse to sell goods to Palestinians and often to even disallow them to use the same restrooms and stores as Israelis use. I've seen families of arabs in Israel made to go broke since they were discriminated against in employment after being fired on the basis of race. I've seen taxis pick up jews but not arabs on a regular basis, on the "good streets" as well as the bad ones. I've seen the ghettos that the arabs are forced to live in under miserable conditions, seen the daily abuse they suffer, seen the Palestinians and arabs refused medical care at the hospitals and forced away when they desparately needed that medical care. I've seen small arab children knocked into the street by Israelis at streetcorners, hoping that they will be hit by a passing vehicle. I've seen people absolutely humiliated in several-hour long checkpoints when they are simply trying to walk a few blocks within their own Palestinian neighborhoods. I've seen much needed Palestinian schools, grocery stores, homes, medical centers, etc demolished on Palestinian land by Israeli bulldozers, for no purpose at all except for reasons of hatred and bigotry and to try and further hurt the local Palestinian population who have no way of fighting back.

Yes, it's that bad - and I've only just barely begun to relate the thousands of experiences I've witnessed directly in Israel, and which are witnessed every day by horrified Israeli citizens. How come you don't seem to know about any of this? Haven't you been there and seen it yourself? Or, if not, don't you ever get reports of any of this over here in America, AT ALL? Do you get them, but simply choose to ignore them? I seriously question your truthfulness when you say that you know anything whatsoever about what it is really like over there. It feels just like apartheid S.A. but to a larger scale, and the international community - along with a constantly growing number of Israelis who are finally getting the courage to speak out - we are all very, very aware of it. Our art and popular music frequently describe the mistreatment of our Palestinian brothers and sisters in our broken society. You really should join the real world community too - and get your information straight before you so irresponsibly make your false claims and accusations. You do not speak for the majority of Israelis. Please stop saying things that continue to make Israeli jews look so bad to your fellow Americans who read any of this, in case any of them actually believe your misinformation and propaganda. Why do you do it?
by Me 2
Enlihtened is right, I am Israeli citisen too who saw things just like that all the time. I am visiting here and tell we need americans to learn about it and to help us to defeat Sharon and make our country free for everybody, including palestinians and arabs and everyone else too. The government now are bad people. We like it better here in america than we do in Israel right now because we disagree with our government so much it is terrible. Most of us want to leave but Sharon government makes it really hard to leave Israel and it is expensive too I am glad I have friends here to help me get out for a little time.

The guy named HEY sounds like a nobody who just pretends be a zionist. maybe he have some kind of identity cricis thing or to just want a cause to believe in or something. But we sure don't need guys like him who support Sharon and support killing people and will just make it harder for us to change the bad ways of our israeli goverment. What is your problem with us HEY, won't you just help Jewish instead of being a raceist Jewish?
by informant
Israel: Corruption scandal grips ruling Likud
By David Cohen
31 December 2002

Israeli politics has been shaken by allegations of corruption and ballot rigging in the leadership elections within the ruling party, Likud. The scandal comes as parties are preparing for the general election scheduled for January 28.

The liberal daily Haaretz wrote on December 11 that although the Likud elections seemed to be properly conducted, “behind that formal procedure was an ugly and dangerous political reality ... the result is glaringly evident in the Knesset [parliament] list proposed by the Likud: Of the 40 top candidates, 19 are new faces, and many of them are men and women without an appropriate record of public service and without the necessary qualifications to be counted as members of the Israeli parliament.”

The police have since decided to investigate leading Likud members and MPs with regard to how the primaries were conducted and the methods by which candidates won high places in the Likud’s list. The scandal began after Knesset member (MK) Nehama Ronen, who failed to win a realistic slot in the Likud Knesset list, revealed that during her campaign four Central Committee members had asked her for payoffs of between NIS 1,000 (US$200+) to NIS 1,500 (US$250+) per head in return for votes in her favour. Ronen rejected all the requests for money.

Haaretz reported that Ronen told its journalist that “out of the hundreds of Central Committee members she met during her campaign, only four explicitly demanded payment. She refused to identify them, other than to say three live in the centre of the country and one lives in the south.” She said, “They presented themselves as powerful, able to bring me as many as 40 votes, and when I inquired afterward, I was told that was true.... One asked me right at the start, ‘How much are you paying?’ I said I’m not paying, nothing.” She added, “another said that he usually takes NIS 2,000 [more than US$400] per Central Committee vote from the candidates, but since I was new in the Likud, he was ready to give me a discount, between NIS 1,000 to NIS 1,500 per Central Committee vote he brought me.... One explained to me the ‘logic’ behind the bribery. He said he and his colleagues spent a lot of money to get elected to the Central Committee, so this was his way of regaining his expenditures. I told him that I had no intention of paying, and innocently asked if there are people who pay. He said, of course, since those who don’t pay don’t get votes.”

The most sensational scandal was the Inbal Gavrieli’s affair, a relative unknown who managed to grab the twenty-ninth spot on the Likud list for the forthcoming elections. Inbal Gavrieli’s father, Shoni Gavrieli, has been suspected of involvement in a number of illegal gambling scandals but has so far escaped conviction. Police have investigated her family’s attempts to form relationships with members of the legislature, but failed to find any evidence of wrongdoing. All that is known is that the family hosted bountiful events at the night club they own in the city of Jaffa, to which senior party members and central committee members were invited. Gavrieli managed to garner 400 votes, which was enough to earn her a realistic place on the Knesset list.

Haim Cohen, another candidate in the Likud primary, told police that a fellow member of the party’s central committee had demanded $70,000 in return for political support in the internal elections and $500 for each supporter he succeeded in recruiting. Israel Radio reported that Cohen said the same committee member had told him, “My support is a question of money, and my participation in Likud is a business matter.”

In addition, a secretary for a candidate who ran in the Likud primary has alleged that her boss had asked her to hint to Likud Central Committee members that she would be willing to have sex with them in return for their votes.

The fraud squad is also planning to question Deputy Infrastructure Minister Naomi Blumenthal on suspicion of involvement in alleged vote buying. Blumenthal, a popular Likud politician who came in ninth in rankings for the Likud Knesset slate, is suspected of paying for rooms for MKs at the luxury City Tower Hotel in Ramat Gan City the night before the party’s primary. Police arrested Blumenthal’s aide and driver and a Magistrate’s Court gave investigators warrants to access a printout of incoming and outgoing calls from the man’s cell phone.

The scandal has called into question the future of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon’s government.

Israel’s Attorney General Elyakim Rubinstein instructed the police December 14 to open an investigation into bribes and payoffs allegedly proposed by Likud Central Committee members. He has also asked the Communications Ministry for an explanation of Minister Reuven Rivlin’s use of his ministry office and its telephones for telemarketing his campaign for a Likud nomination to the Knesset. Haaretz revealed that “telemarketing clerks hired by Rivlin before the Likud internal elections worked out of the Communications Ministry and used the ministry’s telephone system. The activity went on for four days. The callers were hired by Rivlin through Manpower, the employment agency, and they were assigned to call members of the Likud Central Committee, collect data on the respondents’ plans for voting, and to ask the committee members what they thought of Rivlin. Rivlin came in 37 on the list.”

To offset the crisis, Justice Minister Meir Sheetrit formed a Likud election reform team with a mandate from Sharon to change the system for electing the party’s MKs, before the January 28 election. Sharon said that he would expel anyone found to have committed improper acts during the party primary, even if it meant kicking out ministers or Knesset members. He gave Sheetrit 30 days to come up with a proposal.

However, the scandals have since reached closer to home. The Israeli police have announced they will question Sharon’s son Omri on his ties to people accused of involvement in vote rigging. Haaretz reported, “according to testimonies, Omri Sharon had a lot of influence over the party apparatus and over the activists in the field, who took over many Likud branches. There are also suspicions that the Likud as a party illegally assisted Ariel Sharon supporters to get elected to the Central Committee and also to the Knesset candidate list in the end of November.” Omri Sharon came in twenty-seventh in rankings for the Likud Knesset slate.

The Maariv daily commented, “What is infuriating is that the dimension of corruption in the Likud has reached an extent liable to cast doubt on the legitimacy of the government to be formed by the biggest party.”

“Sharon ... is a man without limits,” wrote a commentator in Yedioth Aharonoth, Israel’s largest circulation daily, and “running a state without boundaries, in a way that knows no bounds.”

The Labour party has used the corruption charges to further its own campaign against Likud. Recently elected Labour leader Amram Mitzna stressed, “I will not join a national unity government under the Likud.” He told Channel 2, “There is no doubt ... that organised crime is apparently infiltrating a party, a ruling party, and is trying in this way to make achievements.”

Labour Party General Secretary Ophir Pines-Paz called for the formation of a special committee to investigate Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and all the Likud candidates, to put a stop to the connection between politics and organised crime. “The new testimony about extortion and attempted bribery in the Likud raises questions about the vulnerability of democratic rule in Israel. The danger of criminals slipping representatives into the Knesset and influencing senior ministers requires enacting immediate far-reaching laws,” Pines-Paz said.

But Labour has not emerged unscathed from the scandals. Maariv also commented, “The Likud Central Committee does not own the copyrights on corruption in Israeli politics.... Corruption existed in another era and another place.”

Labour MK Eli Ben-Menachem has been accused of offering $400 to a rival candidate so he wouldn’t stand against him and is being investigated by the police.

More fundamentally, until recent weeks Labour was Sharon’s main coalition partner and propped up his government while it mounted a brutal assault on the Palestinians and implemented harsh austerity measures against the Israeli working class. Together with Likud, Labour shares responsibility for the growing divide between rich and poor which lies at the root of the corruption scandal.

A recent report of the Center for Social Policy Studies, “Israel’s Social Services 2000”, notes that workers’ incomes are declining and unemployment is rising: “The recession, which began in 1996, the policies of economic restraint and the lopsided growth of the economy (leaning strongly towards high tech industries) have all contributed to this situation ... the indicators of poverty are a cause for serious concern. Throughout the last two decades, both during periods of economic growth and decline, the percentage of families living below the poverty line has increased. Some 22 percent of children live in poverty today as compared with 13 percent in 1980.”

The preservation of democratic norms becomes impossible under conditions where the broad mass of the population has become alienated from all the official parties and from a political process geared to the betterment of the few at the expense of the many. In contrast, the unrestrained enrichment of the upper echelons of the ruling elite naturally attracts the support of and fosters connections with semi-criminal and even overtly criminal layers—anxious to establish their own place within ruling political circles and to support their own selfish interests. It appears that they now find it easy to buy their way into ruling circles in return for what are in fact fairly small sums of money, which is itself an indication of just how rotten things have become.
by informant
Israeli troops face criticism on civilian toll

By Charles M. Sennott, 12/29/2002

AMALLAH, West Bank - A 95-year-old Palestinian woman returning in a taxi from a doctor's appointment Dec. 3 was stopped at a checkpoint here by an Israeli soldier who, Palestinian witnesses said, smashed the windshield and fired 17 bullets at the vehicle. One of the shots hit the woman's spine and killed her.

On Dec. 12, five unarmed Palestinian men seeking work inside Israel were trying to scale a Gaza border fence in the middle of the night. Believing the men were militants on an operation, Israeli troops fired a tank shell that killed all five.

When an Israeli tank unit near the West Bank town of Jenin blew a tread May 5, soldiers thought the loud bang was a bomb and opened fire at everything around them. They killed a Palestinian mother and two young children who were picking vegetables in a field.

These are three examples of what Palestinian and international human rights groups estimate are as many as 1,200 cases of Palestinian civilian deaths at the hands of Israeli soldiers in more than two years of fighting. Human rights activists and military specialists say the high rate of civilian casualties is the result of a military that has not properly investigated civilian deaths and has created an atmosphere in which soldiers are not held accountable.

''The lack of investigations into civilian deaths has given soldiers a strong sense of impunity, that they can do pretty much whatever they want without having to answer any questions,'' said Lior Yavne, a senior investigator for the Israeli human rights group B'Tselem and author of a report published in March that examined Israeli soldiers' actions during the current Palestinian uprising.

Israeli military rationalization for the deaths of Palestinian civilians reflected a view in Israel that ''all Palestiniansare terrorists.''

In recent months Israeli human rights groups, leading Israeli newspapers, and even retired high-ranking officers have denounced the number of Palestinian civilian deaths in the West Bank and Gaza and contended that the IDF has not fully investigated them.

A review of the IDF internal investigations into the killing of Palestinian civilians reveals that only a small fraction of the cases are given a full military inquiry. In two years, only 30 cases of ''violations of procedure regarding shooting'' have resulted in a full military police investigation, and only five have resulted in indictments before military courts for wrongdoing, according to IDF officials. To date, none of the cases has resulted in a conviction.

The IDF points out that there are field inquiries that can result in disciplinary measures by senior commanders for violations of procedure, but that these cases are handled on a brigade and unit level. ''It is very difficult for us to know what is there,'' said one military spokesman.

General Amnon Strashnov, who was the Israeli military attorney general during the first intifadah in 1987 and until recently a judge in the Israeli civilian judicial system, made a rare public criticism of the military, saying that the current IDF attorney general ''should show more initiative'' in investigating Palestinian civilian deaths.

''All the immoral and illegal deeds done in the checkpoints, the abuse against Palestinians and the holding of ambulances deserve strong condemnation and criticism,'' Strashnov told the newspaper Yediot Ahranot in an interview published Friday. ''There is a need for deeper investigations. When kids are killed by a tank there has to be a deep and thorough investigation.''

In a lead editorial on Dec. 5, the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz, wrote of the ''proliferation of cases of innocent people killed'' and cited the IDF's easing of its own rules of engagement during complex military missions in which soldiers search for wanted people in densely populated Palestinian cities and towns.

Top military officials are worried that the IDF's image is being tarnished by the high number of civilian casualties. They also express concern that in an effort to keep Israel from calling up more reservists the IDF has put too much pressure on its army, leaving troops exhausted and more prone to making poor battlefield decisions.

A military attache to a Western embassy in Tel Aviv, who has had a long, distinguished military career and directed several military inquiries in his own country, said that the Israeli military's system of investigating non-Israeli deaths was ''shallow and inadequate by the standards of any professional military.''

''The main problem is that the soldiers are not held accountable for their actions,'' the attache said, speaking on condition of anonymity. ''Ammunition expenditures, for example, are not thoroughly checked. The system through which field reports make their way to the higher levels for scrutiny is badly flawed. It is a real issue right now for the Israeli military, and senior military commanders - some of this country's finest soldiers - are well aware of how this problem is undermining the reputation of the military.''

Asked specifically about the investigations into the death of the 95-year-old woman, Feingold said, ''You want answers too quickly.''

When asked about other cases - some dating back as much as a year ago with none of them resulting in a full inquiry - she added: ''We have a very hard time investigating because of the situation, that is sometimes true. We cannot substantiate allegations without the collaboration of the Palestinian side.''

When asked about the case of the woman and her two young children who were killed by the IDF tank fire, Jacob Dallal, another IDF spokesman, said ''that was looked into. The procedure is to shoot in the area of where the device exploded.''

But when told that IDF found only a blown tank tread, Dallal added, ''The soldiers believed there was a device. So they followed procedure. What don't you understand about that?''

In the case of the five men killed trying to scale the Gaza border fence, an IDF official said that even though the victims were unarmed there was ''no violation of regulations.'' When asked whether firing a tank shell loaded with hundreds of deadly flechettes, or small darts, on five unarmed people was an appropriate response, the official replied: ''We believe the soldiers' judgment was right.''

The IDF rarely comments on the use of flechette shells, which are implicitly banned under international law. Because the shells inflict widespread casualties, they are classified as ''indiscriminate'' weapons, which are banned in civilian areas.

The IDF official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said only, ''We never specify our weapons.''

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict, which erupted in September 2000, has taken a heavy toll on civilian populations on both sides. The totals vary significantly among different groups, and there are differences in how they define civilians. The Palestinian side can include youths throwing rocks and firebombs, as well as loosely formed militias, while the Israeli side can mean heavily armed Jewish settlers in the occupied West Bank.

One of the more respected Palestinian organizations, the Palestine Human Rights Monitoring Group, estimates that there were 1,751 Palestinians killed by Israeli forces in the period from Sept. 29, 2000, to Dec. 21, 2002. Of that number, 1,272 were considered by the group to be ''unarmed civilian casualties,'' including 314 children. The Red Crescent Society and the Palestine Monitor, two other organizations in the West Bank and Gaza, place the number of Palestinian civilian casualties significantly higher.

The Israeli organization B'Tselem, which is widely credited for having the most meticulous and fair counting of deaths on both sides, reports that 1,727 Palestinians were killed in the same 26-month period. B'Tselem estimates that at least 450 of those were women, minors, and elderly men. The conservative Israeli think tank, the International Policy Institute for Counterterrorism, has estimated 727 ''noncombatant'' Palestinians have been killed in the conflict.

B'Tselem counts 663 Israeli deaths in the fighting, about 441 of which were civilians. The IDF has calculated 690 Israeli deaths, 479 of those civilians.
by Hey
Don't call me a racist.

And I never even said I supported Ariel Sharon.

If the Israelis don't like Sharon, then for God sake's vote him out! You can do that. The Palestinians can't vote out Arafat, but you can vote out Sharon. Don't pretend its a dictatorship.

And if Israelis re-elect them again, well, I guess you're in the minority. But that's Democracy.

Yes, I've been fighting a number of Palestinian Supporters, Mr. so-called Enlightened, who are ignorant on everything to do with Israel, and spread lies that are Anti-Semetic, in addition to being anti-Zionist.

I'm a student at the San Francisco campus (the one which had the rally that you're woefully misinformed about- and if you are an Israeli, you obviously weren't there, you just chose to believe the Palestinian side over the other) and I've seen the poster they put up with pictures of Palestinian babies, with the claim that these children were being slaughtered so their blood and flesh could be used in Jewish ritual rites.

This is another ancient slander, the slander of blood libel. If you know anything at all about Judaism, you know it's a lie. You also know it's an anti-semitic tool that the Church used to persecute Jews in Europe for centuries.

Do you know this? You didn't know about poisoning the wells.

I'll acknowledge that I am skeptical of your report. You may have sources, but how am I supposed to know they didn't come from Al-Jazheera or some other group that publicizes lies? There are websites that claim the Holocaust didn't happen, for crying out loud. That doesn't mean its true.

And yes, some Jews can be critics of Israel. There are even some who don't think Israel to exist. I disagree with them, as is my right to. It doesn't mean I'm wrong, or that they're right, or that they're wrong and that I'm right. But I do disagree with them, and as Jews we are allowed to have our disagreements. Yes, I think many of them are woefully uninformed, or have an overly optimistic view of the world's attitudes towards Jews. But that's why I'm not of that camp.

If any of them wanted to persuade me, they would not be able to do it by repeating the misinformation that's been coming out from the Arab world, sugarcoating their crimes against the Jews and against Israel. If you say they are none, I'd suggest you'd read another book.
by Bob
Advice claims "Many who despise Israel are jews, do you think they are jew haters too?" - This is a lie. While some who criticize the actions of Israel are Jews, those who despise Israel are overwhelmingly racist madmen who are obsessed with Jews. You also state "I think that it is you are spreading hate for jewish people simply by accusing others of doing so" - this is a reasonable argument only if you are a bigot - why should the words of one individual, who may or may not be a Jew, be the reason others should hate all Jews? Fool.

Hey - the reason I make my comments is because I have seen may earnest intelligent people on these boards waste a great deal of time drafting compelling arguments on why Israel has a right to exist and should exist, only be to find that their interlocutors have no interest in debating the facts. If you wish to put your well thought-out arguments in a place people may read them, do as I do and write op-eds and letters to the editors of newspapers and news magazines. While these anonymous boards are interesting to visit and its sometimes fun to throw your two-cents in, I don't believe that they are good venues for reasoned debate. However, if you wish to try, good luck.
by enlightened
We literally can't seem to vote out Sharon - and believe me, it's not because we are the minority. It's difficult for us to understand how we got to this situation in Israel where so many wish for new leadership and dislike Sharon, but the votes magically tally to a winner that nobody wanted. Some of the alternative candidates are often even worse, as in the case of Netanyahu - who would be even more bloodthirsty and brutal than Sharon (if you can even imagine it). We are VERY skeptical that the votes are being counted properly, and smell corruption and fraud. It appears very clear to us that the winners being announced are not who we voted for - and who can we turn to? If our government commits this crime upon us, there is truly no objective third-party agency to enforce the correct counting of votes and punish the fraud and corruption. It is a major scandal and has been for a long time, as you probably know(?) What are we supposed to do, take up arms and go attack our government? We're open to suggestions...

Why do you say that I'm "woefully misinformed about" your campus rally? I didn't know about it, other than the information posted above by you and another. Of course there are some extremists on the Palestinian side! But, don't you also see that there are just as many extremists on the Zionist side?

I'm worried that you don't know, or that you are somehow excusing, the fact that there is extremism on both sides. Zionists do not have any moral high ground, and both sides are equally guilty. Just as you shouldn't excuse extremists on one side, neither should you ignore or make excuses for extremists on the other side.

Simply aknowledging that BOTH sides' are at fault would go a long way. In Israel we aknowledge the crimes of both sides, and we think that american zionists should do so as well - instead of always pointing fingers at just one side only. Doing that seems to be a uniquely american zionist pattern. It makes american zionists look racist and bigoted, and by extension, all the rest of us in Israel as well - don't you see?

You didn't know about the facts of current documented poisoning by jewish settlers of the Palestinian family wells. I didn't know about the well poisoning accusations from past Europe. Guess we both learned something new there.

Yes I know about the accusation of blood-usage in jewish rites thing, everybody does! That's been around a long time. There are also many untrue accusations that I bet you don't know about, that are created and made from our zionist bigots in Israel and abroad too. Once again, both sides are quite guilty of this.

While I do understand your argument base, it would be very much more helpful to those in Israel if you would realize and accept that many, many Israelis are anti-zionist too. Your american media apparently won't show you that (for reasons I don't understand, maybe you could explain it). We in Israel openly aknowledge that neither side is innocent, and just want to work toward both arabs and jews living together with equal rights - with no more racism, hatred, mutual violence, or bigotry. We feel that it is a worthwhile goal, although it will involve some serious and large-scale reform of our government policies over here. We also need american zionists to cool down, stop always trying to bring everything back to claims of anti-semitism (no matter what the other side may be saying), and instead to focus on the real world of TODAY, where we all have to live right now. While those other problems will continue to exist on both sides, nevertheless all of us want to live together in Israel and in Palestine. We want to end the awful apartheid policies of our current government leadership. If there's any hope in what you say about ever voting out Sharon, etc then there is hope in fixing our broken Israeli society too. After all, if Americans could eventually end slavery, and if South Africa could end apartheid, why can't we do it as well? We hope that we can.

But it just isn't helpful to us when american zionists keep hurting the cause of average Israelis with their constant racially-inciting antagonizations, accusations of everybody being "anti-semitic", etc. It's just not fair, or true, to say those things about everybody who is anti-zionist and/or against the policies of the Israeli government (even though we're sure that you must mean well). Let the others on both sides keep saying those things like that to each other if they want to, but please try to help our cause by placing your energy and support toward reform in our Israeli society. If we can accomplish it, the world will be a much better place for all of us!
by Advice
Bob, you keep proving that it is actually you who are completely obsessed with Jews. You are obviously only here to call names, accuse people, and make everyone see the racist bigot that you are. You make all Jews look like jerks by being one of these kind of people, and yes this does make you a Jew-hater since it makes other people dislike your cause because of your dumb racist attitude. Your hate also makes you equally ugly and repugnant to both Jews and Gentiles. You also make yourself sound like some kind of condecending father-figure to the other member you keep trying to encourage. Makes you sound stupid and bigoted at the same time. Get a life

Of course many Jews despise Israel. You should be embarassed if you don't know that. You are not qualified to write op-ed pieces for newspapers or anywhere else on these matters, if you think that the only people who despise Israel are fanatics unworthy to listen to. Some of course are. But not most.

You are very much a hater Bob and you are a liar as well. But I already told you that, and you have proven it many times here now too.

American Jews were always against the formation of an Israeli state, and true Jews in America and elsewhere still feel the same way. Go to the websites of http://www.jewsnotzionists.org or http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com or http://www.netureikarta.org or so many other sites that make this information extremely clear, even for idiots like yourself.

Go get yourself an education, and stop trying to sound like somebody who knows what they are talking about. Fool
by From Enlightend American
I hope you are running for office in Israel! They NEED YOU!
by To Our 1054 Refuseniks
We, faculty members from a number of Israeli universities, wish to express our appreciation and support for those of our students and lecturers who refuse to serve as soldiers in the occupied territories. Such service too often involves carrying out orders that have no place in a democratic society founded on the sanctity of human life.

For thirty five years an entire people, some three and a half million in number, have been held without basic human rights. The occupation and oppression of another people have brought the State of Israel to where it is today.

Without an Israeli declaration of an end to the occupation, accompanied by appropriate action--unilateral, if necessary--the present war is not being fought for our home but for the settlements beyond the green line and for the continued oppression of another people.

We hereby express our readiness to do our best to help students who encounter academic, administrative or economic difficulties as a result of their refusal to serve in the territories. We call on the University community at large to support them.

Faculty members who wish to join are welcome to contact Anat Biletzki.

Link: http://www.seruv.org.il/UniversitySupportEng.asp
by TA
"Because the ISO, the group that ran this event, did not talk about the hard topics. Instead they MADE STUFF UP to damn Israel with. Do you understand that? They MADE UP LIES! Things that are DEMONSTRABLY untrue. FACTUALLY untrue, things that could easily be checked. As an example, they claimed the Kibbutz are not really socialist communities. Why? "Because they're Jew only, and Socialism has to be for everyone."

So what *is* socialism that's for Jews only, Hey? What is anything that's for Jews only? It's something that only certain people are allowed into based on their religion. I don't have a religion. I'm athieist. I guess I wouldn't be included in all these Jews only things, Jews only roads, etc. Wow, a real democracy there.

The ISO has done a lot on the campus. While not everyone agrees with them, they do far more than any other group and are against war. Last semester they were the only group openly defying the campus adminstration which was trying to squelch communication and dissent on campus. So I support them. And they were at the rally too. So was I, since you asked before. And yes, I had to stand looking at racist caricatures on poster board for the ENTIRE RALLY. You may not have seen them since they were facing the multi-racial group of pro-Palestinian supporters, not the nearly all white group of pro-Israel supporters, a number of whom weren't even students.

And I'll refer anyone interested in the rally to read the story on it in the sfbg: http://www.sfbg.com/36/41/news_thoughtpolice.html

Stop attacking everyone who doesn't support your zionist views as liars. You obviously only report one side of events to manipulate other's opinions. Plus, most people are getting tired of your increasingly frantic attempts to explain your side in attack mode. According to you, anyone who reads anything that isn't your approved news source is clueless.

"The only information you read is the Palestinian or Arab propaganda. You never read sources that set the record straight. "

What sources are those then? NPR?

"During the six-month period studied, NPR reported the deaths of 62 Israelis and 51 Palestinians. While on the surface that may not appear to be hugely lopsided, during the same time period 77 Israelis and 148 Palestinians were killed in the conflict. That means there was an 81 percent likelihood that an Israeli death would be reported on NPR, but only a 34 percent likelihood that a Palestinian death would be. "
http://www.fair.org/extra/0111/npr-mideast.html

Maybe NYT?
"Instead of featuring interviews with mourning relatives, New York Times coverage focused on those apparently considered to be the more important victims: Israeli Jews, who were "Shamed, Sad and Sacred of What's Ahead," according to a front-page Times headline on the second day of coverage (2/27/94). Many Jews obviously felt genuine grief over the killings--but shouldn't the emphasis have been on the community that actually lost loved ones?

Instead, the Palestinian reaction was typically relegated by the New York Times to the inside pages--generally impersonal coverage that focused on protesters' "calls for vengeance" (2/27/94). The Times' first-day coverage (2/26/94) described Arab protesters as "crowds of sullen young men" who were "taunting police officers" with religious slogans. (Would the Times describe members of a Christian community that had just been subjected to a massacre as "sullen" and "taunting"?)"
http://www.fair.org/extra/9405/massacre.html

Everyone who disagrees with you 'Hey' is not a liar.

by PeaceLover
The people of the world loves Israel

Frederick man returns from volunteering on military base in Israel

by Sherry Greenfield
Staff Writer

Dec. 31, 2002

Donald Lachman and other volunteers from across the United States went to the Middle East country as part of the Volunteers for Israel program.


Donald Lachman's dream of volunteering his time on a military base in Israel is a reality come true.

The 76-year-old Frederick man and past president of the Frederick County Volunteer Fire and Rescue Association is back after spending one month working at the Julis military base, located six miles from the Gaza Strip in Israel.

Outfitted in an Israeli Army uniform, Lachman got the chance to work on tanks, refurbish gas masks, meet Israeli troops, sleep in military barracks and even tour the country.

The experience for the soft-spoken and quiet Lachman was not only wonderful but also extremely rewarding.

"I thought it was a great trip," said Lachman, who worked in Israel from Nov. 10 to Dec. 10. "I really enjoyed it."

Lachman went to the Middle East country as part of the Volunteers for Israel program.

Since 1982, the non-profit, non-political volunteer organization has been sending people of all ages to Israel to help the military with a wide range of non-combat duties that include packing duffel bags, cleaning toilets, working in the kitchen, building or mending barbed wire fences and assembling and sorting uniforms.

Now in 34 countries, more than 75,000 volunteer positions have been filled, according to their Web site.

This volunteer work allows the Israeli soldiers to concentrate their efforts on fighting and patrolling the country.

Lachman's goal was to help out the country as it continues to fight suicide-bombing attacks from Palestinian militant groups.

During his month-long stay, Lachman was up everyday at 7 a.m. for breakfast and flag raising ceremonies.

He and the other 40 volunteers were also briefed on the latest news and happenings in the country.

The daily work assignments were then given to each volunteer.

"The first couple days I planted a garden on the base," Lachman said. "The following two weeks I worked with a few people on refurbishing gas masks."

Israel is preparing to use the gas masks in the event that the United States again goes to war against Iraq. In the 1991 Persian Gulf War, Iraq launched Scud missiles at Israel in retaliation against the United States. Its citizens were forced to wear gas masks to survive the attacks.

Lachman also spent time repairing tanks and cleaning tools.

The living conditions also gave Lachman a good taste of military life.

He and four other volunteers shared a room in a three-story barracks.

The troops were housed on the ground floor of the barracks, the men on the second floor and the women on the third.

Everyone slept on a cot.

The daily work schedule was eight hours a day, Sunday through Thursday. Free time to tour the country was from Thursday night until Sunday morning.

During his free time, Lachman visited the Israeli cities of Tel Aviv, Jerusalem and Tiberias.

Lachman also had the opportunity to meet other volunteers from throughout the world.

They came from such places as Norway, Finland, France, South Africa, Canada, Australia, Brussels and New Zealand.

Just 45 percent of the volunteers were Jewish.

"Those that were not Jewish felt they just wanted to help," said Lachman, who is Jewish. "Some felt they wanted to do something and some just loved the country."

The ages of the volunteers varied. "There were some people in their 20s, 30s and 40s and some old folks like me," Lachman said.

Lachman loved the experience so much that he is already planning a return visit. But this time, he hopes to go as a trained Emergency Medical Technician (EMT).

Already a volunteer with the New Market Volunteer Fire Company and United Steam Co. 3 in Frederick, Lachman will start EMT training classes Jan. 7.

After the six months of classes are complete, Lachman will not only continue to donate his time to the fire companies, but he hopes to use his EMT skills to help the wounded of suicide bombings.

He hopes to return in order to help the citizens of Israel.

"[There] is sort of a magic feeling about being in Israel," he said.

http://www.gazette.net/200253/frederick/news/137825-1.html
by sad
"Lachman's goal was to help out the country as it continues to fight suicide-bombing attacks from Palestinian militant groups. "

Lachman could be better used on the other side of the fence, taking care of civilians who are shot by IDF forces - but of course, he probably feels the murder of civilians (Palestinian civilians, of course, NOT Israeli) is just a day's work in the name of the war on terror.

Someone might want to have him get a check-up for Alzheimers - he seems a little deluded. He could get lost if someone doesn't keep track of him.
by King_Papa
Its sometimes called the "American Filter," you would be supprised to see how much shit is never even touched in the American media.
Nothing gets reported until for some reason it has been distorted to form public oppion on one side of an argument.
Like now America IS going to war with Iraq.....again! When we should have finnished the job 12 years ago. But that is not the point, the point is, war is now inevitable, because the media has said it long enough and now the people believe that is the only option.
I guess Joseph Goerbles what right when he said "If a lie is spoken often enough it often becomes truth."
Now america believes that most of what it sees in the news is true, and that their is no other side of the argument.
You would be suprised at what can gain support if a fact is left out here, and a number is fudged here, and the word protester is substituted with extreamist.
by Tsun
aza-medlarge-yel-bluecast.jpg
Anyone who's an Anti-Zionist may join the Anti-Zionist Alliance. Just take this little button and add it to your website. Or have some made up as campaign buttons!

Happy New Year and G*d Bless!

by Hey
So many fools, so little time.

In order:

1)Enlightened: What is Zionism to you? To me, it simply means a belief that Jews have the right to live in their historic homeland, with self determination, in a Jewish state. Is that what you don't believe in?

2) Actually Sharon ran against Barak last election if I recall correctly. Now why didn't you elect Barak? And maybe you know plenty of people who hate Sharon; I'd be surprised if you didn't. I knew plenty of people who hated Clinton when he was president. I know plenty who hate Bush, not to mention Reagan. But they still lost the election and had to wait 4 years. This is how Democracy works, you know? Of course Sharon doesn't have 100% approval rating. That only occurs in dictatorships. You know, like Iraq?

3) I did a search like you suggested on Google, of Israelis and poisoned wells. I found very few hits. The only ones who claimed Israel poisoned wells were extermist Palestinian sites. More level headed sites discussed how poisoned wells, an ancient slander, is bringing brought back as a new fabricated charge against Israel. So I don't think you've proven your point.

To Advice:

You're a moron. I do not resent Bob, so don't even think of giving him a tongue lashing on my behalf. Instead, I resent you.

To TA:

1) Israel is not Jew-only, get it through your thick skull already.

2) The ISO, apparently unable to get any real facts, decided to fabricate false ones. I don't know why they had to resort to this if, as you say, Israel is all criminal. But they did. Lies. You know, untruths?

3) Why don't you describe that racist poster you saw? I've seen a number of extremely offensive Palestinian posters, trying to equate the star of David to a swastika, which is highly offensive. And don't even try to claim they're equivalent, it's a blatant lie.

And to whoever it was who said that (I think Enlightned)

* Of couse I know there are bigoted Zionists. And Israelis who are not nice. And people who were killed by mistake by the IDF. And non-equal policies in Israel.

But that is no excuse for spreading lies, fabrications, and yes, recycled Anti-Semitism into any sort of debate.

Nor is it an excuse to sugarcoat crimes or act of terror by Palestinians.
Nor is it an excuse to sweep the crimes of Arab nations under the carpet.
Nor is it an excuse to hold Israel up to a standard of justice unequalled by even the best of First World nations, while its neighbors are among the worst in the world.

As for your websites about "Jews against Zionism." I took a look at the jewsnotzionists.org
And quite frankly, due to the language used, I doubt its set up by Jews. Call me a skeptic.
And even if it is, it means little. I can show you an Arab against Palestinian statehood and terror; does that discredit their whole movement? I'm sure you'd say not...
by Hey
So many fools, so little time.

In order:

1)Enlightened: What is Zionism to you? To me, it simply means a belief that Jews have the right to live in their historic homeland, with self determination, in a Jewish state. Is that what you don't believe in?

2) Actually Sharon ran against Barak last election if I recall correctly. Now why didn't you elect Barak? And maybe you know plenty of people who hate Sharon; I'd be surprised if you didn't. I knew plenty of people who hated Clinton when he was president. I know plenty who hate Bush, not to mention Reagan. But they still lost the election and had to wait 4 years. This is how Democracy works, you know? Of course Sharon doesn't have 100% approval rating. That only occurs in dictatorships. You know, like Iraq?

3) I did a search like you suggested on Google, of Israelis and poisoned wells. I found very few hits. The only ones who claimed Israel poisoned wells were extermist Palestinian sites. More level headed sites discussed how poisoned wells, an ancient slander, is bringing brought back as a new fabricated charge against Israel. So I don't think you've proven your point.

To Advice:

You're a moron. I do not resent Bob, so don't even think of giving him a tongue lashing on my behalf. Instead, I resent you.

To TA:

1) Israel is not Jew-only, get it through your thick skull already.

2) The ISO, apparently unable to get any real facts, decided to fabricate false ones. I don't know why they had to resort to this if, as you say, Israel is all criminal. But they did. Lies. You know, untruths?

3) Why don't you describe that racist poster you saw? I've seen a number of extremely offensive Palestinian posters, trying to equate the star of David to a swastika, which is highly offensive. And don't even try to claim they're equivalent, it's a blatant lie.

And to whoever it was who said that (I think Enlightned)

* Of couse I know there are bigoted Zionists. And Israelis who are not nice. And people who were killed by mistake by the IDF. And non-equal policies in Israel.

But that is no excuse for spreading lies, fabrications, and yes, recycled Anti-Semitism into any sort of debate.

Nor is it an excuse to sugarcoat crimes or act of terror by Palestinians.
Nor is it an excuse to sweep the crimes of Arab nations under the carpet.
Nor is it an excuse to hold Israel up to a standard of justice unequalled by even the best of First World nations, while its neighbors are among the worst in the world.

As for your websites about "Jews against Zionism." I took a look at the jewsnotzionists.org
And quite frankly, due to the language used, I doubt its set up by Jews. Call me a skeptic.
And even if it is, it means little. I can show you an Arab against Palestinian statehood and terror; does that discredit their whole movement? I'm sure you'd say not...

To Bob:

I do occassionally write letters, op-ed pieces, and I've attended a rally or two. That's why TA's attempt to pull the wool over my eyes by claiming things that didn't happen at the May 7th rally doesn't work on me.

But you're right, I probably am wasting my time. I do wonder why I bother. But my question is: If that's so, then why do you bother?
by TA
"TA's attempt to pull the wool over my eyes by claiming things that didn't happen at the May 7th rally doesn't work on me."

Yes, I suppose I must've been high again that afternoon, like I am everyday, evil wicked person that i am. Only 'Hey' knows the *real* truth, unlike everyone else on here. Only Hey knows what really happened because somehow - even though I spent several hours chanting and waving a flag and helping to set up and take down - I had no idea what was happening at the rally. The posterboard drawing that I could often hardly see past (it was so close) of an Arab man and his camel, with huge features, nose rings of some sort, etc., and the screaming grown Jewish men, and the students with their arms folded . . . eh, just in my dreams again! Darn those voices! They keep popping up! I just wish I could understand the real truth, like Hey does. Hey is all-knowing. Hey is the omnicent one. I pray to Hey. I pray he will enlighten me, release me from my earthly evils and dishonesty. Every word I utter is a dishonest manipulation designed to obscure the real truth as only Hey knows it! Help! I am lost in a religious wonderland! It's the Pal-Isr Land of the Lost!
by Bob
Hey - you ask why do I bother? In my daily routine I never meet Nazis or deranged hatermongers, at least none who reveal themselves publicly. Here, cloaked by anonymity, these animals show themselves. I enjoy having the opportunity to mock these vile bigots and ridicule their hateful beliefs. As you have seen from your discussions with TA and the others here, you can't reason with liars or haters. And if you are under the impression that these rabid "anti-Zionists" are motivated by anything other than obsessive Jew-hate, you are sadly mistaken.
by enlightened
To 'Hey',

Thanks for your reply. I'm glad you are interested in finding out the truth about how the militant fundamentalist jewish settlers are currently guilty of poisoning the Palestinian family wells. We in Israel are very ashamed of the settlers and their criminal actions. They should be punished for the murders they have committed, and that they keep committing. Our leadership is currently trying to suppress these facts from public knowledge, but they can't do it forever!

I understand what the ideal kind of zionism is that you are describing, and you're correct that zionism in its current form is very, very far from that ideal. This may be the most important distinction to be made here, namely, that the zionism that currently exists "on the ground" in Israel and abroad is, unfortunately, not equal to the original zionism definition you are asking about. The sad part of the story, as it exists today, is that zionism has - in its current real world manifestation - been turned (by corrupt leadership) into a terrible form of racism and bigotry. Israelis are generally ashamed of this outcome, and most of us (except the ugly right-wing) hope that we can reverse it into the peaceful and democratic ideal that it was supposed to be and should be today. In order to do this however, we need to enact the change from within -and we also need to get american zionists to change their tone, in order that their support will be in-line with our actual needs. We want our arab brothers and sisters to be able to share equal rights with us in the state of Israel (as was in our state charter and declaration of principles), and currently the situation is unfortunately very far from that due to racists and bigots in our government.

I repeat, neither side of our struggle should candy-coat the crimes committed by the other side. But, and this is my most important point I'm trying to make to you, neither should be ignore or candy-coat our OWN crimes either. Both of our sides are equally guilty of terrible crimes, and neither side is "more guilty" than the other. Israel does NOT hold a higher moral position over our arab brothers and sisters, and we are capable of getting along if only our leadership would allow us to.

Israelis, as well as american zionists, need to stop always pointing the finger at the other side. Perhaps you can help us by changing your tone? We must stop always accusing our opponents of trying to sugarcoat their own crimes, sweep crimes under the rug, hold to a different standard, etc. Instead, in order to be mature enough to work through our differences, we must aknowledge that we in Israel, just like our opponents, are equally guilty of such crimes. It is the truth, after all. We should not be liars, and neither should we be one-sided all the time. When american zionists do that, it by extension just makes all of us look like one-sided selfish ignorant jerks. We're not all like that you see. Most of us are mature enough to aknowledge the truth about our broken system, the fact that the grievances of our arab neighbors are equally legitimate, and we all wish for change. If we can make these changes to our current ugly apartheid Israeli society and government (and we believe that we can), then we will finally get our necessary and desired result - a country of Israel that is a real and true democracy, and not just a sham democracy that only allows equal rights for jews. Shalom.
by Anti-Zionists
You Zionists just love to paint pictures in black and white don't you? You always try that same old game of twisting anti-Zionism / anti-Apartheid Israel into "they must be anti-Jews, no doubt about it".

How tedious and off-base!

Did it ever occur to you that anyone who thinks that their suffering, their persecution, their human rights are more important than someone else's is not very likable to say the least? In fact, it's a genuine turn-off!

But that's how Zionists like you are! You don't seem to realize that persecution and ethnic cleansing are despicable and immoral whether the victims are Jews or Palestinians (or any other people!)!

Zionism is racism which manifests itself in ethnic cleansing and discrmination based on religion!

Racism is racism is racism! Racists don't inspire warm and fuzzy feelings! Au contraire.
by King_Papa (gorillafunkness [at] yahoo.com)
Enlightened,
I was wondering if you could email me some of the english websites of Isreali news papers, because its hard to find news that hasnt gone threw the "American Filter" that I told you about.

Thanks for your help(if you decide to), and for hearing me out and understanding another side of the coin.

Peace out
by Hey
TA: I'm glad you finally understand the truth. Excellent.

Bob: Well, I understand I guess. My problem is that looking at these posts is like looking at a car accident. It's horrible, it's revolting, it's a tragedy, but whenever you drive by one you just have to look for some reason.

Enlightened: Here's my suggestion.

If you're having a difficulty with overzealous settlers, or Israeli rightwing nationalists, then I would STRONGLY suggest you give them a name other than Zionists.

Like you're saying, the Zionism you're talking about is not real Zionism. I don't know what it is, but it isn't Zionism. Call it Nationalism. Or come up with what we Americans called our ancient, land hungy people: Manifest Destiny.

Alright, Manifest Destiny may not be the best name either. But at least we don't call them... I don't know, Americanites. Because then they labe everyone in America with those few nutcases.

You may find... or you should find, if you study the enemies of Israel more carefully... that many of those who call themselves Anti-Zionists are advocating the EXTINCTION of Israel. Not the reform. The destruction.

You should not encourage these people by letting them redefine Zionism to mean the worst of Israel.

Zionism means the existance of Israel; it should not mean the activities of its manifest destiny types.

I certainly don't use it that way.

Keep in mind that in this country, when I see Anti-Zionists, one symbol they used that I've seen a lot on t-shirts and banners is the star of david surrounded by a circle and slash, i.e. the "No" sign.

But the star of david is not a symbol of Zionism, it's a symbol of Judaism.

And though many of them... let's be honest NONE of them admit that they're problems are with Judaism. But you need to take a careful look at their rhetoric and realize that much of the conflict stems because they are bigoted against Jews.

Now I've had two dozen websites thrown at me so far (Actually, it was usually just the same jewsnotzionists website over and over again) so I'm going to throw one out to you.

Memri.org is a the Middle East Media Research Institute, and it translates Arabic media from Arabic into English. It mostly translates articles having to do with International Affairs (they don't bother to translate the Sports page)

Take a look at some of them; it would be a fallacy if you're desire for self-guilt blinds you from realizing when you're punishments are not earned.
by enlightened
Thanks to you as well for listening, and I appreciated hearing your thoughts too.

Want to know something I've noticed about public requests to send information to an email address? People will sometimes send other kinds of information to it, pretending to be the person that was acually asked, etc. So because of that trouble, I personally make it a rule never to send information to a publically stated email address, since I don't know who else might also do so while impersonating me, etc

Thanks though, for asking me to find good english sites for true (non-filtered) Israeli news! So rather than send anything to the email address you gave, I think I will try instead to make a fairly comprehensive list of such sites and post it at one of these public discussion forums. I hope that will also work?

Peace to you too...
by anti-Fascist
It occurs to me that Zionism may be anti-Semitic because Palestinians are Semites, while many Israelis of European heritage are not.

We need to publicize the $14 BILLION DOLLARS of aid (ethnic cleansing subsidies) being requested by Israel right now. It's totally unacceptable.

We need to help Americans understand that at a time when American schools can't afford copy paper, BILLIONS and BILLIONS of our tax dollars goes to prop up illegal settlements, an illegal occupation, and terrorism against a whole captive population.

Yes I support a two state solution, but the only way this can possibly happen is if the United States takes an even-handed approach to the Israel/Palestine problem.

Our democracy is in jeopardy: The Israel Lobby spends hundreds of millions of dollars to buy politicians and influence American elections. Why do you think the politicians are so willing to send BILLIONS to Israel?

Our standing in the world is in jeopardy: Israel is one of the world's great scoflaws. They have violated many more UN resolutions than Iraq. They have nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons. They have engaged in ethnic cleansing on a scale that dwarfs anything in Serbia.

Israel has bombed American libraries (in Egypt -- look in the index for the "Lavon Affair" in any reasonably unbiased history of Israel in the 1950s). Israel has intentionally attacked an American spy ship (the USS Liberty, see James Ennes, ASSAULT ON THE LIBERTY). They have sent their spies to steal American secrets (Jonnathan Pollard is still in jail although the Israel Lobby keeps trying to spring him).

Israel is not our ally! Israel is a rogue state. Israel is the tail wagging the American dog.

Too long America has allowed guilt to dictate our policy toward Israel. My mother's generation felt tremendous guilt that we didn't stop the Holocaust, that we didn't accept Jewish refugees from Nazi Europe.

I didn't do it and I don't feel any guilt about it. Just as I stand up for the rights of Palestinians, I would have stood for the rights of all those who were victims of the Nazi boot. We who are anti-Zionist are also anti-Nazi and anti-Fascist.

Too long we gone without challenging Zionist propaganda about the weak Israeli "David" against the massive Arab "Goliath." Too long we have averted our eyes from the damage our money and our weapons are causing to the civilians that inconveniently lived where the Zionists dictate Israel should be.

It's a new day folks.

(For the record. Racist anti-Semites (of all stripes) kiss my ass. Just because I'm pro-Palestinian does not mean I am anti-Jewish. All you Holocaust denial folks can kiss my ass too.)
by enlightened
To 'Hey', thanks for your reply.

I think that we completely agree that zionism should be about peaceful coexistence, instead of the activities of its militant jewish fundamentalist, and racist bigot, types. In fact, I know that the vast majority of Israelis are desparately hoping that the term 'zionism' will one day represent peaceful coexistence.

We have actually just made a very important and meaningful first step in the discussion. Please know that it is exactly this difference in "zionism" meanings that is at the root of virtually all disagreements about zionism itself. People AGAINST zionism are referring to the very real evil aspects of the current modern form that zionism takes. People FOR zionism are thinking of its ideal definition (which hopefully can be realized someday). Both sides fight very hard for their perspective, because the reality is that BOTH sides are correct. We all in fact want the same thing! If everybody eventually realizes that, then we will then also see the truth of what we all really want and must work for - namely, that zionism as it currently exists be radically overhauled from its current ugly racist and apartheid condition, and changed into what it should be - a true, legitimate, and peaceful democracy for everybody. Not just a democracy for jews (as it is today), and not just for jews and arabs either - but for jews, arabs, blacks, whites, asians, native americans, all middle easterns/persians, etc - EVERYBODY living together and sharing equal rights. Only then will Israel finally realize its potential.

What we need american zionists to do, in order to help us see these positive changes occur, is this: Whenever an argument about zionism occurs, recognize the problems zionism has in its current form today. This is undoubtably what the anti-zionists have in mind, and legitimately so as well. Then point out what zionism should really be about - namely the ideal aspects that we are discussing here (lmost certainly the anti-zionists won't be aware of this positive vision that we feel is so desparately needed). Then, work to establish mutual agreement on this common goal and vision that we all want to see occur in the near future. Finally - and most importantly - start and participate in a respectful discussion about what needs to be done, in the form of an action plan by the Israeli gov't and the world, to make these changes actually happen. Now we're getting somewhere!

Accomplishing this change in our state won't be easy, however, since the current extremely corrupt government - as well as our militant jewish fundamentalist settlers - literally insist that their violent racist practices, and quest for a master jewish race, are the actual 'correct' definition of zionism. It is because of their literal hijacking of the term zionism that we all have these terrible arguments about the term 'zionism' these days - and what zionism really stands for today, in its current actual manifestation, gives anti-zionists a quite legitimate justification for their anger and resentment. We need to aknowledge our understanding of their legitimate grievances. After all, we would obviously feel the same way as they do, if "the shoe was on the other foot".

It is the current corrupt leaders in the Israeli government, as well as the horrible and murderous criminals in the settlement community, that today making the entire country of Israel look terrible. We are desparate to try and change that, because what apartheid Israel represents today is not what our religous views dictate. We need to hold our leaders accountable for their criminal actions and for the terrible image that Israel holds today as a result of their corrupt leadership and sanctioning/propagation of murder and violence. Only when such change occurs will we be able to meaningfully use the term zionism once again in the form we truly wish to use it - namely, to mean coexistence and peace, instead of ruthless murder and expansionist destruction of other peoples, in the name of the criminal master-race vision of our lesser Israeli brethren.

Maybe, just maybe, there still is hope. Shalom
by Peace Warrior
You are just TOO NICE to be effective, I fear. I am for a just peace, but it seems like there may have to actually be a civil war in Israel now, just as there was in the US between the North and South, ending slavery. In Israel's case, ending the Occupation and racist Zionism. Either that or the UN and the US (with a NEW regime change of its own) must step in to intervene! After all England and the UN started the mess in the first place by giving away land that wasn't theirs to give away in the first place to Eastern European Zionist Jews! NICE GUYS obviously finish LAST if at all.

There were always "nice" Zionists like you but they were far outnumbered by the power-hungry Jewish supremacists that have ALWAYS held the upper hand and ALL the power in Zionist Israel! Face it! It's NOT going to change unless you forever banish Zionism as Nazism was and just go for creating a secular, democratic government in Palestine-Israel. Just forget about Zionism altogether! It was born out of paranoia of anti-semitism and is the flip side of the coin: reverse discrimination! Please take the lead of the Neturei Karta Ultra-Orthodox Jews who reject Israel and Zionism totally, yet can live peacefully with Palestinians, and stand with Palestinians at anti-Israel and anti-Zionist rallies. Zionism is flat out a racist ideology which MUST be abandoned --- forever!

American Jews should get used to having just America for their homeland--- you can't have your cake and eat it too! Israeli Jews, who are not dual citizenship with another country, who live in Palestine-Israel should be able to stay there as equal citizens with the Palestinians. No one should just be able to have "automatic citizenship" just because they are Jewish! The 5.5 million Palestinians must be allowed to return to their ancestral homeland of Palestine-Israel as equals, as is their right according to UN Resolutions, International Law and world opinion, before anyone else should be allowed to immigrate there, and again, no "automatic citizenship" for anyone, except for the Palestinian refugees!

I like you "Enlightened" but face it ---Zionism has GOT TO GO!
by enlightened
These are very good points that you are making.
by Hey
This is exactly what I was talking about.

Above you have a post by a fascist who calls himself "Anti-Fascist."

Fascist has introduced two lies:

A) Anti-Semitism means prejudice against all Semites, not just Jews.
B) Jews are not Semites.

Part A I've already refuted further above in this conversation. Anti-Semitism has always referred to Jews, not Semites in general, ever since the German Jew Hater Wilhelm Marr introduced the term in the 19th century.

But Anti-Fascist could not be bothered to read my repute, and repeats the deception here.

As for B) This is also a fallacy, which is a doubly damning one. The Nazis murdered and expelled European Jews because they WERE Semites.

Now proponents of the Arab community seem to want to murder and expel Europeean Jews because apparently, now they're NOT Semites.

The common factor is not whether or not Jews are Semetic; the common factor is murder, expellation, the "Jews should not be here" argument.

By the way Anti-Fascist, your argument has been disproven scientifically, because Jews of Cohen descent from different parts of the world have nearly identical DNA strands, regardless if they're Ashkenazi, Sephardic, or Ethiopian. So please put a cap on your lies.

So Enlightened, there you have an Anti-Zionist resorting to lies and deception.

Now your OTHER Anti-Zionist, the "Peace Warrior" who actually just wants war, calls for civil war, destruction of Zionism, and a number of violent epithets. No logic, just insults.

For Peace Warrior, to allow Jews to live among a tiny piece of their ancestral homeland is "Jewish Supremacy."

He is not a friend of yours either, if you really are an Israeli. He wants you out.

Now again, I disagree with you when you discuss what Zionism "has become."
Sure, governments are corrupt. That's nothing new. No doubt Israel has corrupt officials. So does America. So does the Palestinian Authority. So does France.

But you should not let your detractors define your label.

If you don't like expansionist settlers, say you don't like expansionist settlers. Don't say they're modern Zionists.

Look, you're getting a lot of Jew haters here who say stuff like: "I hate Jews. But when I say Jew, I only mean the corrupt Zionist Jew (people like me) not the good, anti-Zionist Jew (people like you).

Maybe this sounds okay to you. You know what it sounds like to me?

African American author W.E.B. Dubois once wrote a short story in his volume, "The Soul of the Black Folk."

He discusses how an educated black returned to the farm, and found new hostilities from the whites. He's told, why can't he just work the farm quietly like his father? And the whites say things like this: "Now your father, he knew his place, he was a good nigger."

When people say that Jews who are willing to turn against their own rights are the "good Jews" to me that sounds like them saying: "Why can't you go back? Be a dhimmi. Accept the traditional oppression you got from Europe, from Arabia, from all over. Be a good nigger. Or a good kike."

It's easy for them to say. Anti-Semitism is rising quickly in the world today. Israel is blamed. So because people don't like Israeli foreign policy, they murder a Rabbi in Portland, or desecrate a Jewish cemetary in France?

You're also still quick to blame yourself. You can acknowledge some responsibiilty for the problems. Sure, there's nothing wrong with acknowledging when we do things poorly. I have an Israeli friend who's extremely critical of Israel.

BUT...

That doesn't mean you should give the Arabs a free pass. You almost never hear Arabs take responsibility for anything. Yes, this is a blanket accusation. Disprove me. Let me here the Pro-Palestinian users here tell me what crimes of the Arab nations or the Palestinian Authority that they acknowledge were wrong. Don't justify, don't sugar coat, just tell me. See if it's possible.

Enlightened, you aren't all right. But you aren't all wrong. And you should realize this.
by David
I have never felt more proud or more alone
by Sarah Kopelovich, Aug. 24, 2002

Truth: In 2002, 60 years after the Holocaust, a Jewish girl cannot go out to an anti-neo-Nazi rally and hold up the Israeli flag.

The past two years have been a perplexing time to be a young "liberal" Jew in America. As an Israeli American, I have often been required to defend Israel from her liberal detractors. An epidemic is crossing our nation's campuses, as confused college kids are lumping together the American civil rights movement with the anti-apartheid movement with the Palestinian independence movement.

Encouraged by groups like the Nation of Islam, black pride slogans have been appropriated for Palestinian protests and the language of Malcolm X has been subverted to serve the adherents of Yasser Arafat.

This has been particularly disturbing to me, as I have been extensively involved with attempts to heal the breach between the Jewish and African American communities.

During these troubling times, I remain proud of my Jewish heritage. During a mission trip to Israel with the International Hillel Organization, I learned that there are no absolutes in politics just as there are no absolutes in life. My sense of Israeli and Jewish identity was rekindled as I began to realize, together with my Jewish brethren in our homeland, that no matter how I or anyone else feels about the current actions of the Israeli government, the Israeli nation has the right to exist in its current form, as a homeland for Jews. I rediscovered that as an Israeli American, I could always hold my head up high. And I do.

Today I sojourned to the U.S. Capitol to join the counter-rally against a neo-Nazi demonstration. As I watched the neo-Nazis approach the south Capitol lawn, my ears were pelted with offensive slogans and vile rhetoric.

How can I describe my feelings as I watched them pass, with their swastikas, Aryan banners, anti-Israel posters and crossed out stars of David?

To these Nazi sympathizers, who applaud the victimization of minorities, of Jews, who extol the brutal slaughter of 12 million people including whole branches of my family tree, to them I wanted to sing out, "I AM A JEW! I AM AN ISRAELI AMERICAN! NOW IT IS YOU THAT ARE IN THE MINORITY. WE ARE STRONG AND WE ARE HERE FOREVER!"

Unfurling a blue and white Israeli flag, I walked briskly and purposefully toward the gathering of anti-Nazi protesters. Watching 300 neo-Nazis with their strident rhetoric, I felt small, isolated and helpless.

As I walked toward my compatriots, my fellow protesters, I felt more empowered with each step. These were people who believed as I did, rational tolerant people whose personal morality impelled them to stand together and denunciate hatred and intolerance. They would stand with me, protest with me, and perhaps attempt to educate -- with me.

Or so I thought.

As I walked deeper and deeper through the crowd of protesters, waving the Israeli flag high and proud above my head, I began to feel less and less welcome. I marched on, waving the flag even higher so each and every neo-Nazi could see the flag of the Jewish people.

Suddenly I realized that the cries and jeers at the sight of the flag, originated not from the neo-Nazis, but from the anti-Nazi protesters.

I continued through the crowd and tried hard to ignore the glares. Inevitably, I was confronted. Abusive, although not unfamiliar words assaulted me at first: "Israel is fascist!" "Zionism is racism!" An old woman with a sweet face screamed at me, "You are a Nazi!" she cried. What had started out as a protest against racism quickly turned into a forum of hatred and fanaticism. I and the flag I held were their targets.

What could I do? Would I turn around? Could I let them disrespect this symbol of my people, and retreat in fear? I held my flag even higher. And I attempted, among the threats, the jostling and chaotic vehemence, to reason.

"I am not the enemy! The enemy is right across the street. Please, let's share this common ground and fight together!"

Despite my intense rage, I stayed true to my nonviolent beliefs and fought her and the crowd that had begun to form around me, with my words.

The crowd of anti-Nazi protesters did not have the same nonviolent ideology. I was spat upon. I was physically and verbally threatened. Grown men accosted me and tried to rip the Israeli flag out of my hands. Several were very close to actually assaulting me. Police intervened and blocked the anti-Nazi protesters from approaching me. These were supposed to be the good guys, and yet the hatred they exuded was just as potent as that of the Nazis themselves.

When a police officer told me that I should leave for my own safety, I staunchly refused. With every shout, hiss, slur and threat, the Israeli flag stood higher in my hands. Blocking out all the defamatory statements about Israel, I stood at the forefront of the protesters and held up that flag as much for them to see as for the neo-Nazis.

I have never felt more proud or more alone in my entire life.

But all I could do was ask them, "Why are you doing this?" "Why are you doing this?" With all of the research I've done on the conflict, for all my convictions, all I could say was "Why are you doing this?"

I must admit that I, like many young Jews and Zionists my age, feel betrayed by American liberals. With regards to the Middle East, there seems to be no appreciation of the moral ambiguity, the political nuances, the multiple layers of media spin. Faced with such a complex situation, young people too often ask others to chew it, swallow it and digest it for them, and then tell them in absolute terms which side is most appropriate to their general belief structure.

Are you in favor of affirmative action? Are you for civil liberties and women's rights? Why, then, you must be pro-Palestinian! Anti-Globalization? Humanitarian? Pro- Palestinian! Ever voted Democratic/ Libertarian/Socialist or even abstained from voting for a Republican? Then Palestine is the side for you!

Strongly held political views in no way justify acting in such a callous and hateful way toward a fellow human being. With their blind hatred of Israel, these anti-Nazi protesters treated me as roughly as the neo-Nazis on the other side of the partition would have, had they but had the opportunity.

Today, I held my head -- and the Israeli flag -- up high; not in Israel, but in what I had previously considered to be a safe environment. For what better place to applaud the existence of a state for Jews than at a Neo-Nazi counter-rally on Capitol Hill?

I was sadly mistaken. As I went out to face the neo-Nazi demonstration, I found myself hated, both by the neo-Nazis and by those who were there to protest against them. I found myself alone in the middle. And for the first time in my life as an American, I truly understood the crushing impact of anti-Semitism.

In a very palpable way, I was an outsider, hated by everyone. With rabid anti-Semites on one side and anti-Israel fomenters on the other, surrounded by bystanders willing to do nothing as I suffered horrid abuse, I wept - and as Jews must do in this post-Holocaust world, I stood my ground. Truth.

A District resident, Sarah Kopelovich, 21, is a senior at George Washington University.
by David
Why we'll win
By Michael Disend - May 21, 2002
http://www.israelinsider.com/views/articles/views_0398.htm

By now most of the informed Jewish world has heard about the anti-Semitic riot at San Francisco State University and the hateful ambience on local campuses. I'd like to further illuminate the hideous climate in the Bay area with a few personal anecdotes. A brief surmise of recent events in my life as a writer and performer may provide a more in depth picture:

* The director of a well-known local acting ensemble suddenly announces to the group that he's collecting money for the "Palestinian cause" because of the "tremendous suffering" caused by the recent Israeli defensive actions. There's not a mention of the suicide bombings or the "suffering" of beleaguered Israel. Some of his lead actors are Jews. At least one of them feels betrayed, appalled and hurt.

* I get a call from an intellectual friend, brother veteran of local campaigns to protect the environment who casually asks me what I think of Ariel Sharon. When I express support and admiration, there's cold silence. Later I receive the most vicious piece of hate email in my life.

* The feature editor of the biggest alternative weekly paper in Northern California, where I'd just published the cover story, tells me that they have absolutely no interest in a report from Israel expressing the "Jewish side," even if I pay for all expenses myself.

* An Orthodox Jewish friend, very much the visible target, is beaten savagely outside the Berkeley Chabad House and hospitalized.

* A well-known, radical Jewish North Beach poet pal from the Beat era, subject of a glowing cover story in the SF Chronicle, erupts furiously whenever the name "Israel" is mentioned. When he tells me that he's proudly marched with pro-Arab forces in a recent parade where the Israeli flag was shredded, stomped on, and burned, our friendship ends.

* As my passionate and open pro-Israel views become known, I'm quietly dropped from many of the "progressive" circles, which constituted much of my life.

* While riding the bus to an acupuncture appointment, I hear the loud, bellicose voice of an ethnic man behind me: "All 'they' got to do is read the paper to know they're in trouble." My sixth sense goes on red alert, but I sit quietly. Then: "The Mid-East is just half of it. Just wait." Now I turn, acting on a lifelong principle to let no anti-Semitic remark or action go unanswered. As he steps off he bus, he glares savagely and says, "Now we'll find out who the *real* Jews are." I remember my grandfather's description of pogromists in Russia.

* A 7,500 strong pro-Israel demonstration here receives absolutely no mention in the Hearst-owned San Francisco Chronicle, the biggest slight yet in a long-term verified pattern of biased reporting. This leads finally, after years of timidity and imaginary liberal guilt, to an alarmed eruption by the organized SF Jewish community.

For me, the most severe example took place last year. I was attending a Holocaust educational event at the Presidio, the vast former government base, when it was interrupted by about a score of pro-Arab Leftist demonstrators wrapped in red and white-checkered scarves. Some carried signs that read "END ETHNIC CLEANSING" and "STOP THE GENOCIDE". As we sat in stunned silence, listening to a brave elderly Holocaust survivor try to speak through the clamor, these vile, disrespectful agitators came right to the door of the hall, harassing everybody inside. I stomached it for a few minutes but then, being unable to respect myself as a man and a Jew if I remained seated, went outside and confronted them.

Looking into the eyes of these pathetic "fighters-for-justice", I saw what I've always seen whenever I've faced Jew haters down: stone cold fear. That's an important point. Because what the enemies of the Jews and Israel draw their false power from is *not* justice - never has been. They're weak, insignificant bullies who thrive on Jewish fear. As I see it, their energies are from the dark side, from the spiritual vexations, which afflict those who don't stand with Truth. There are some who would call those energies demonic, and I would be hard-pressed to disagree.

I've also seen that fear in the eyes of the most famous "Left" so-called 'rabbi' (emphasis on the 'so-called') of our time, based here in the Bay area. You all know his name and his destructive magazine, his bullshit 'politics of meaning.' I felt sorry for this pompous blowhard, a 'progressive' darling. His are the eyes of a small boy terrified of being beaten up who later retreats into a hollow castle of left idealism. From there he howls invective at courageous Ariel Sharon -- calling him a 'war criminal' -- braying on and on about the 'occupation' -- and through his absurd conferences and magazines does everything in his power to undermine the strength of the Jewish state, it's supporters, and our faith in the living God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

At the root of all this unfair carping against Israel is fear - fear of fighting, of risking body and soul for the Jewish people - and especially fear of being an authentic Jew who believes what the Torah so clearly states: "Fear not, O Jacob my servant, saith the Lord: for I am with thee; for I will make a full end of all the nations whither I have driven thee: but I will not make a full end of thee, but correct thee in measure; yet will I not leave thee wholly unpunished."

To make a long story short, things heated up and several of the demonstrators made silly claims, which resulted in me being ticketed for disorderly conduct (technically an arrest, as it was on federal property). I was required to appear in federal court. Later I was cleared with the help of my estimable attorney, Ephraim Margolin, formerly Menachem Begin's personal secretary, and all charges were dropped.

I learned much from this experience. For one, when I called several local rabbis whom I knew personally for support they simply didn't respond. I was uncertain what to do until, through an inexplicable set of circumstances I was led to the wonderful Mr. Margolin, who defended me ably and for free. I'm forever grateful.

As I see it now, the "inexplicable set of circumstances" was providential rather than accidental. God's help, to be frank. Perhaps -- no, certainly, because all is in His hands -- the very same sort of help, which has aided lonely Israel to emerge victorious through all her trials. If there's one thing I've learned through these days of destiny, it's to take our scriptures very seriously indeed.

And that leads me to gist of my tale. Which is about the very best thing that's happened to me in years: my recent attendance at the historic first Judeo-Christian Zionist Congress in Berkeley, epicenter of the anti-Semitic nexus.

Put together by the marvelous Rosemary Schindler (ne SCHINDLER'S LIST) and Americans For a Safe Israel, I had the most extraordinary three days imaginable. Enormously strengthening! I wish everybody reading this could have been there! We have a ton of support from Christians, if we're open to receiving it. Without covering all that occurred - all the lectures and talks, from Israelis like Nadia Matar (Women in Green) and Col. Moshe Leshem -- which you can discover by visiting/ contacting Rosemary at her site -- I experienced tremendous healing. I'm a pretty worldly guy, around a ton of scenes in my life, and consider myself a fairly astute (and often cynical) judge of character.

Believe me, if you dare, when I tell you that these Christian Zionists are the most sincere supporters of Israel I've ever met. Bar none.

And I'm no 'messianic Jew' or believer in Jesus. Not at all. I was raised by devoutly secular parents and didn't set foot in a synagogue until my teen years. Even now I feel no need to do so (mostly because the rabbis are so disappointing) -- but I feel closer to Him, our living God, than at any time in my life. He "lives" in my heart, and the Bible has become thoroughly alive to me for the first time. You know what? Any Jew can have that experience! Instantly! And from the Torah flows bounteous strength, getting deeper and deeper. Why? Because He's 'real' and always available to the open heart.

What inspired me dramatically about meeting people like Frank Eiklor, ex-Marine and dauntless fighter for Israel and the Jewish people, is how they have this whole-hearted love of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and a profound understanding of the Jewish experience through time.

Jews make a grave, possibly fatal, mistake if they regard Christian Zionists as fair weather friends with a conversion agenda. All proselytizing was forbidden at the Congress, and the people I met were of the highest caliber, truly sincere in their support for Israel and the Jewish people. I might add that they were, also, far more informed about the Mideast than most Jews I know -- and that's a damn shame!

The way I see it now, this "Bible Coalition' - along with help from the Buddhist and Hindu world, who are also threatened - is the wave of the future if we are to win this war.

I could go on and on about this incredible Congress, the dedicated sincerity of these Christian Zionists, and the positive reactions from all the Jews who attended (religious and secular, many artists and writers and composers, all tormented by the local situation), which was thoroughly positive. I was deeply moved by Native American speakers who stood and spoke in Zionist solidarity with Israel, and the humble Sisters of Mary, a German group of nuns dedicated to repentance and reconciliation, who put together last year's Christian repentance ceremony at Yam Hashoah in Jerusalem.

The Judeo-Christian Zionist Congress was also heart breaking. Having suffered much from anti-Semitism as a boy, I wept often during those three days.

But now a conviction shines in me despite this, our darkest hour in fifty years: we will win, with His help, and the aid of our humble, thoroughly sincere gentile allies. They're out there, millions and millions of them, and they can be trusted.

Let's join together in His name.

by David
PHILOLOGOS

The Skinny on 'Semitism'

Can one be anti-Israel without being antisemitic? Lately, this question has been cropping up more and more — in the media, in public exchanges and in many a private conversation. It calls for serious thought, the first task of which is to disentangle it from its terminology.

Antisemitism is indeed not only an unfortunate phenomenon, but by universal admission an unfortunate term. Its origins are clearly documented. It was coined in 1879 by the German journalist Wilhelm Marr, the author of a book called "The Victory of Judaism Over Germanism." In that year Marr, in step with the swelling tide of anti-Jewish feeling in Germany, founded his Bund der Antisemiten or "Antisemitic League." The term caught on immediately. In 1881 an "Antisemitic Petition" bearing 225,000 signatures was presented to Chancellor Otto von Bismarck, and by 1882 there was an official "Anti-Semitic Party" in Germany that won several seats in the Reichstag.

Why did the German word Antisemitismus so quickly replace the older Judenfeindschaft, or "Jew-hatred," and spread to other European languages as well? The answer lies in the growing propagation in late-19th-century Europe of a pseudo-Darwinian racial ideology that, dividing the world's population into various "biologically" definable groups of which the "Aryan" was deemed the most advanced and fittest to survive, relegated Jews and blacks to the bottom of the ladder. The problem was, however, that Jews could not be "scientifically" considered a separate race in themselves. After all, they originally came from the Middle East, where, like all other Middle Easterners, to whom they bore many resemblances, they had spoken a Semitic language — in their case, Hebrew. "Racially," therefore, they had to be considered "Semites," thus making anyone who opposed them or considered them inferior on racial rather than strictly religious grounds an "anti-Semite."

That this word is nonsensical has often been observed, not only by physical anthropologists who point out that there is no such thing as a "Semitic" (or, for that matter, "Aryan") race, the inhabitants of the Middle East being a mixture of many different racial stocks, but also by the Arab world, which has argued rather disingenuously that, since it is "Semitic" itself, it cannot possibly be "anti-Semitic." For this reason, some writers and publications, including the Forward, have preferred to spell the word as "antisemitism." As the Israeli historian Yehuda Bauer has put it:

"Anti-Semitism" is altogether an absurd construction, since there is no such thing as 'Semitism' to which it might be opposed. In German... there is no hyphen, and the word has no precise meaning, although its connotations are well understood.

And if "antisemitism" is a confusing way of referring to a hater of Jews, "Israel" can be an ambiguous way of referring to a Jewish state. This is not only because, historically, "Israel" both is and is not a recognized name for the Jewish people (various Christian groups in the past and present have also thought of themselves as "Israel"), but also because, in today's usage, "Israeli" can mean either a specifically Jewish citizen of Israel or any citizen of Israel at all. For example, in the sentence "Israelis should make peace with the Palestinians," it is clear that "Israelis" means Jews living in Israel as opposed to Palestinians living in Israel. On the other hand, in the sentence "All Israelis should have equal rights," one is obviously including Palestinians living in Israel.

On purely linguistic grounds, therefore, the relationship between "antisemitic" and "anti-Israel" seems unclear. It might have been clearer had the founders of the Bund der Antisemiten called themselves "Jew-haters" rather than "antisemites," and had the founders of the Jewish state called it "Jewland" rather than "Israel," in the same way that we have England, Ireland, Finland and Poland. One cannot, after all, be an enemy of Ireland but not of the Irish, or of Poland but not of the Poles, and to claim that one hated Ireland but was not anti-Irish because one had nothing against the Irish in America, just as many haters of Israel declare that they are not antisemitic because they have nothing against Jews elsewhere in the world, would strike most people as hair-splitting.

But of course the question is not merely a linguistic one. The argument has been made, and it seems to me a good one, that what ultimately needs to be asked is not whether one can theoretically be anti-Israel but not antisemitic but whether, practically speaking, one's criticisms of Israel reflect a double standard or not. If a person bitterly attacked Israel for its treatment of Palestinians, but also similarly attacked China for its treatment of Tibetans, Russia for its treatment of the Chechens and India for its treatment of the Kashmiris, I would not attribute the criticism to antisemitism even though Israel has far more justification for its actions than any of these countries. If, on the other hand, the same person singled out only or mainly Israel for criticism, an antisemite is what he or she is. That's the bottom line.

by Hey
It was nice to see those articles again, though the last two were new to me.

It's interesting that you bring up the Christian Zionists. I am hoping that there is strength here.

It's just that I know a number of Jews who are still paranoid, and are afraid that the Christian Zionists are all trying to bring about the Rapture.

I don't think is the cause for many. I'm not even sure how many believe it at all... or if its mostly settled in the religious right.

Oh well.

For anyone else interested in learning about Christian Zionists, check out israelmybeloved.org (or was it .com? one of those)
by Not a Zombie
Criticism of "Israel" and "Zionism" really is criticism of "Jews," as mentioned by several people above. I don't know how to get around that. It's not nice, maybe, but it's necessary. Yes, the Chinese (people of China) are to be criticized for what they have done to Tibet (and elsewhere). Yes, the Russians (people of Russia) should not be allowed to get away with what they are doing in Chechnya (they've been doing it a long time; the history can be found on the web).

However, neither the Chinese nor the Russians are trying to start WWIII. "Zionism" is! Frankly, I can understand the rage of the Islamic world against any American citizen unlucky enough to fall into Islamic hands. "But there are good and bad Americans," some such unhappy tourist may complain. True, but that doesn't count in armed struggle (It certainly didn't count for much when the Allies firebombed peaceful Dresden, Germany or A-bombed Nagasaki. So why should it count now? It's also easy to understand the failure of the average Jew to confront the criminal "Zionists" with the same gusto they would probably turn upon a Nazi.

I don't know exactly what the workable solution is, but I know it isn't going to be found in the glorification of Zionism, or in letting IDF persons get away with murdering stone-throwing children. And allowing Bush to start WWIII and turn America into a police state at the behest of the "Zionists" is not a solution either.

That leaves only one solution that I can see (probably not workable, as just mentioned). Jews, especially American Jews, must take action against the criminals who claim to represent them: against both "Zionists" in Israel and America, and also against their gentile elected representatives in America, who are almost all too cowardly to oppose the all-powerful Zionist lobby here. It's the only hope, folks. Will American Jews be up to challenge? We'll have to wait and see! I'm not holding my breath, though...

by TA
"even though Israel has far more justification for its actions than any of these countries."

Yes, Israel has the right to be above international law, unlike those other countries that the US doesn't fund with billions and billions of dollars. Even though Israel has fewer civilian casualties in a year than Oakland, CA., it is a special case that has 'far more justification.'
by We can't wait for Jews
We can't wait for Jews to take action. WE, THE PEOPLE, who are Americans first, and that includes some Jews, must take matters into our own hands. We must let our political leaders we DO NOT want our tax dollars to go to the aid of apartheid Israel whose unjust policies and aggressions against the Palestinians and its neigboring countries, is sucking the United States into Israel's so-called war of terrorism. What Israel is fight is resistance from the Palestinians and its neighboring countries! And what human being would NOT resist their natural homeland being torn from them? Israel is the last colonizer and occupier! We the people of America say NO MORE AID TO APARTHEID RACIST ANTI-DEMOCRATIC ISRAEL WHICH HAS BEEN GUILTY OF ETHNIC CLEANSING OF THE INDIGENOUS PEOPLE THE PALESTINIANS (NON-JEWS) SINCE DAY ONE OF ITS IMMORAL CREATION BY THE (TOTALLY EUROPEAN AT THE TIME) UN! Time to correct the injustices NOT support them!!!!!!!!!!!!
by enlightened
To 'Not a Zombie',

I agree with your comments about the current evil form that zionism takes. Nearly all of us in Israel are coming around to this opinion after seeing the incessant murder and suffering being inflicted by our gov't upon the local native Palestinian people.

The only clarification I should make though, is that criticizing "zionism" is not the same as criticizing "the jews" - you would probably be surprised about just how many jews, both in Israel and abroad, do NOT consider themselves zionists any longer after seeing how this political movement has turned out.

To 'David', As you can all see from the tear-soaked posts above which David has now thoroughly spammed this thread with, there is still this pathetic "perpetual victim" mentality that american zionists are trying to constantly inject into any discussion about jews and/or about Israel. I can tell you that in Israel, we HATE that kind of propaganda stuff - and we just wish that american zionists would stop always trying to make Israel seem all warm, mushy, and full of crybaby victimhood, that the whole world must constantly always feel so very much sympathy for, with sad violins playing, puppies frolicking, etc. It is starting to make us kind of sick you see. Come on you guys! Why do you keep producing that kind of nonsense propaganda? Things like "The Whole World Just WUVS Israel", and "I've never felt more proud or more alone (sob sob, pout, boo-hoo, sniff)". That's the kind of drivel that just perpetuates the untrue stereotype of jews and Israelis, namely that we are all just innocent little warm fuzzy creatures that are constantly abused and victimized by the cold, hard world who just doesn't understand or accept us, boo-hoo, boo-hoo, boo-hoo...

Just knock it off OK! Nobody falls for it anyway.

I say again, in Israel we simply hate that kind of stuff because it isn't accurate, and it just isn't helpful either. Israel is just as hot and smelly a place as any other country, and after all, it is just a PLACE you guys. And we're just regular people suffering from bad leadership. We simply MUST get the american zionists to FINALLY JUST STOP putting out al that sob-story garbage, which just makes us in Israel feel nauseous as it does not represent us AT ALL. Please stop!

To 'Hey',

I know what you mean about how "anti-semitism" is a rediculous term to use, since the term 'semites' refers to all arabs and original jews too. It really is a misleading term. We shouldn't use it really, since technically it is us that are using the term incorrectly and inaccurately. Let's hope we can find a more descriptive term, like "anti-jew" or something like that, which really means what we intend it to mean, instead of a misleading term that seems contrived just to confuse people.

Also, at least in Israel, we don't feel that the arabs want us all dead or to just leave, etc. That is a myth proposed and repeated by american zionists, in order to generate distrust and hatred of the arab community. What we want, and what the local arabs want, is for our country of Israel to just stop being discriminatory and expansionist, to stop our killing and policies of racism and terror campaigns against the local Palestinian and arab population. We do this far, far more against the arabs then they do back at us with their suicide bombings. Most of the time as well, fighting in the settlements occurs by arabs in pure self-defense against militant jewish fundamentalist settlers who are sadistic in the extreme. We must find a way to stop our own violence, as well as stop always accusing the arabs of being somehow "worse" or "more guilty" than we are. The truth is that we are no different as human beings, and are equally guilty of these crimes - but we do it on a larger scale and with far superior military hardware (mostly American made) and lie a great deal more about it too.

I'm not afraid to call it like it is. Neither are most Israelis. It seems to only be the american zionists who constantly resort to the sob-story tactics, finger-pointing, and unwillingness to even aknowledge that our crimes are equal to those of our opponents.

I don't give arabs a free pass, and I think that should be obvious from everything I've said above. Equally obvious is that I don't give Israelis a free pass either. Do you?

You say that I'm not all right and I'm not all wrong. I'll accept this about myself if you will say so as well about yourself. I would be very interested in hearing an american zionist do that. It would make you more in line with what we in Israel need from you. Peace.
by From an American
You just keep it up. It won't be long before all your toys will be taken away from you and you will be tried for your war crimes. Good riddance to you and your zionazi thugs!
by one of the editors
Yet another comment by "uzi" was hidden because it was Zionist propaganda, ie., racist.
by Hey
Editor, that is one of the most insulting remarks a so-called editor could make- trying to equate "Zionist propaganda" with Racism.

And trying to refer to this to a user who is so obviously not a Zionist- because he uses another equally insulting term, Zionazi.

Could you people at least PRETEND to be objective?

As for Enlightened:

That's not what I meant about Anti-Semitism. Search above for my earlier post on the subject.

by one of the editors
Zionism is racism.

Zionists are to Jews what Nazis are to Germans, ie. an embarrassment to an otherwise admirable People.

"Uzi" keeps posting pictures of IDF troopers, doing their part to ethnically cleanse historical Palestine of non-Jews. We keep removing these pictures because we refuse to allow ethnic cleansing to be glorified at our expense. If you want to look at that crap, go the IDF's own site.
by PeaceMan
They hated Jews because they were stateless. They now hate Jews because they have a state. They marched shouting "Jews to Palestine". Now they march shouting "Jews out of Palestine". The one "adult" here is a censor who declares that "Zionism is racism" and analogizes it with Nazism - probably ignorant of the evil in his words, but certain of their truthfulness nonetheless.

As bigoted as they are, most leftists will cry out when accused of bigotry. Fortunately, leftists never have had much power and their new infatuation with Jew-hatred will hopefully guarantee that they remain far from power. All they have are a few shitty outposts of hate in their universities and in cities like San Francisco. However, as we saw at San Francisco State University and at Rainbow Cooperative, when their hatred is publicly exposed, they will retreat in shame.

Zionism is not racism - anti-Zionism is. Understanding this simple fact will save the left a great deal of shame and embarrassment in the years to come. However, this may require leftist leaders who do more that shout slogans - it may actually require people who underatand history, geography, politics and can think rationally. I'm not optimistic.
by Dave
French woman held for adultery
By Philip Delves Broughton
LONDON DAILY TELEGRAPH

PARIS — A businesswoman who accused three men of gang rape has been arrested in the Arab emirate of Dubai and faces trial on charges of adultery.

Touria Tiouli, 39, from Limoges, France, has had her passport confiscated and cannot leave Dubai after being charged under the emirate's Shariah law, according to her statement released by her friends back home.

The Shariah law declares any sexual relationship outside marriage to be illegal.

Mrs. Tiouli was on a business trip last October when, she says, she was raped by three men who offered her a lift home from a nightclub.

She reported the attack immediately to the Dubai police, who after investigating her claim arrested her rather than those she accused.

One of the men admitted to having "consensual sex" with Mrs. Tiouli, which made her, in the eyes of Dubai's judiciary, guilty of both adultery and making a false rape accusation. She could face up to 18 months in prison. None of the men has been charged.

Mrs. Tiouli was held in prison for five days and has since been staying at a hotel.

The government has taken her passport and refused to let her leave the country until her trial, which has not yet been scheduled.

In the statement released yesterday, Mrs. Tiouli said that when she reported her rape to the police, "I was crying and I saw quickly that my story did not carry any weight with them."

Mrs. Tiouli, who is divorced, was born in Morocco, but moved to France as a child and is a French citizen.

This was her third visit to Dubai, where she worked on behalf of French luxury-goods companies establishing links in the local market, and she was also dealing with the French Consulate. Shariah law is applied with varying severity in many Muslim countries. In Nigeria, adultery is punishable by stoning to death, while in Dubai, a prison sentence is usual.
by Yes
`` Zionism is not racism ``

TELL THAT TO THE INNOCENT MOTHERS WHO LOSE THEIR CHILD ON A DAILY BASIS DUE TO THE INHERENT HUMANITARIANISM OF ZIONISTS

by Yes
`` Zionism is not racism ``

TELL THAT TO THE INNOCENT MOTHERS WHO LOSE THEIR CHILD ON A DAILY BASIS DUE TO THE INHERENT HUMANITARIANISM OF ZIONISTS

by PeaceMan
This week Palestinian Television (PATV) broadcast an interview with a Palestinian mother who boasted that while on pilgrimage to Mecca, she prayed for her son to die in the act of killing Jews. Such lovely people.

"[My second son Naji] became a Shahid on Mar. 23, 2002, at the age of 20. Before I made my pilgrimage [to Mecca], he put his hands on my head and said: 'Be calm, mother, be calm, this is my wish. Pray for me, that I will be a Shahid [Die for Allah].' When I did the circuit [an Islamic pilgrimage ceremony], in Mecca and Medina, I swear to Allah, that I prayed for him... And said: Praise Allah, my children asked for Shahada, and it is better than the way we will die. Their death is for Allah, death for our country, death for our Jerusalem."

This implacable death-loving harpy then went on an extended anti-Jewish rant, wishing nightmares upon Israel:

I have one wish for all Israeli mothers, for all Israelis: They should not relax, they should not sleep peacefully, they should always have nightmares, night and day, wherever they go, and whatever they do... not only from bombings or attacks, but nightmares day and night. They should dream of how the Palestinian people kill them, and blow them up. They should not be relaxed, and should not sleep. Not them and not their sons, not their children, nor the Israeli army. They should not be able to travel on the buses, nor drive a tank, nor even ride a bike. Wherever they turn, the Israelis should see [someone] and say: "Maybe it's a Palestinian."

This Jerusalem is our Jerusalem, and not yours. We are the children of Palestine, the Muslim nation, you will not live in comfort: not an Israeli's mother, nor a soldier's mother, nor a soldier's grandfather, nor a soldier's father. No Israeli of any kind should live in comfort. Even in their sleep, they will have nightmares. We will blow them up day and night, wherever they go. And I, as the mother of two Shahids, if I see an Israeli I will blow up among them.

Whew. That is one bloodthirsty mama. And the interviewer’s response to this insanity?

Presenter: "Of course, We are always very proud of all of our Shahids."
by a

For them to be haunted by nightmares day and night would entail them having a Conscious.
by Now I Know
Well, after much consideration I have now concluded that Zionists are clearly one of the most racist, vile, and bigoted people on earth.

In defiance of incontrovertible facts, the best they can ever seem to do to reply is to simply ignore these facts, and to continue pointing their fingers and calling names at their supposed "opposition". It's like they think they are perfect or something - always accusing their opponents of the racism and bigotry that they so perfectly embody. Do they actually think that anybody will believe that?

They also resort to the extremely childish tactic of claiming that their opposition is oh so small in numbers, and oh so unpopular too, etc. You know, I wonder if they try to go to sleep at night making themselves believe in their own lies?

I can even see ever so many more reasons why reasonable people are now so completely disgusted and frustrated at these racist childish bigots that today call themselves Zionists. It is because they are an engine for perpetuating and engendering conflict and hatred. It is their purpose in this life, and it seems to be an almost clinical and evil condition of the Zionist. They constantly point at the speck in their neighbor's eye, refusing to first remove the log from their own eye.

The ignorance of these Zionists seems to have, literally, no bounds. It is like talking to somebody who is kind of brain-dead. Perhaps Zionism is a type of mental retardation? What do you all think? It's difficult to think of any better explanation. Don't they act just like a little bully child in a schoolyard? Does anybody else see this resemblence too? I expect one of them at any moment is going to call their opponents "poopy-heads", or something else equally childish.

They can contribute absolutely nothing to an otherwise reasonable conversation except for endless hate-literature spam and finger-pointing accusations - sheesh!

In fact, as you can all see, they are really just trying to desparately continue the cycle of hate and violence - by continuing to always feed and stroke the evil. Do you wonder why they do this? I think I know the answer. Think about this. They make it so obvious by their own words and actions. It is because they actually worship their perceived 'race' (a delusion) as a kind of God, rather than worshipping God himself.

Oh well, one thing we can all count on is this: If there is a God (and I truly believe there is), then He will not tolerate anybody trying to worship any idol (race or otherwise) in place of Himself. He will not allow the deeds and evil contributions of Zionists to this world to ultimately go unpunished.

For liars and evil ones, at very best, can only hope to fool innocent bystanders. They can NEVER fool, hide from, or mock God. Period. They know this, and it makes them tremble.

Tremble on, evil Zionists. You have committed idolatry by putting yourselves before God. For this, God will ultimately judge you far better than any man ever could. You cannot avoid your just rewards, nor can you ever hide from God.

For God is well acquainted with all things.
by Here's what Zionism does!
Some people are obviously in denial about Zionism!
MUST we spell it out? Zionism is blatant racism which manifests itself in the ethnic cleansing of the indigenous people of Palestine, except for the Jewish Palestinians that were there before the Eastern European Zionists came into the area with their vision for a Jewish Supremacist state.

In case you don't know what ethnic cleansing is, it involves either making life so miserable and hopeless for the indigenous people, who are non-Jewish, that they either leave voluntarily if they don't die first of starvation or disease untreated or if they get pissed off and start getting politically active, they are arrested, detained, jailed or killed extrajudiciously!

Gee, it sounds like Nazi Germany's treatment of the Jews! I guess it's the abused child syndrome!

NOT WITH MY TAX DOLLARS! NO MORE U.S. AID TO APARTHEID ISRAEL!!!!! DOWN WITH ZIONISM!!!
JUSTICE AND LIBERTY FOR ALL!!!! REGARDLESS OF RELIGION, ETHNICITY OR SEX!
by hmmmm
Methinks he doth protest too much...
by oz man
Actually..the Palestinians are the Indigenous people of the disputed area in the Middle East. Israel is an artificial concept created out of the ashes of WWII. It was created to make a homeland for the Jewish people and it was accomplished by the persecution and unlawful removal of Arabs from their traditional homelands. I am not anti-semitic, but Ariel Sharon IS in fact a murderous 'leader' on a par with Hitler himself. Sharon is responsible for the murders of thousands of Palestinians. Militant Isrealis are responsible for the oppression and genocide of Palestinians: what is going on there is a repeat of what went on in Canada and the US at the height of both countries' Indian removal policies.....except they called it 'manifest destiny' then.

Israel had no right to impose itself on the Palestinians as it did. If I were a Palestinian your damn right I would fight back.

Many Jewish people, including soldiers from the Israeli army, do not agree with Zionist policies in regards to this land conflict and have refused to support their own army...
by Jews-only Bypass Roads
In apartheid Israel there are plenty of Jews-only bypass roads. See one for yourself at http://www.inminds.co.uk/boycott-news-0319.html
by Seeing is believing
Jews-only bypass roads going to Jews-only settlements on stolen Palestinian land. Some "democracy"! Yeah, right! NOT!
by Ender
Democrcay is voting, is freedom of press.

There is freedom of press for jews and arabs.
Both jews and Arabs vote and there are Arab memebers of Kenesset - In fact I as a jew voted for a party that have both jews and Arabs.

Where did you get this nonsense about jews only roads ? I drive in Israel every day and there are arabs driving next to me on every road.
by End the lies, Ender!
http://www.inminds.co.uk/boycott-news-0319.html See for yourself who's talking nonsense! Click on the link!

Do your own Google Search on "by-pass roads in Israel"! See the movie "Palestine is Still the Issue" 1/29 in San Rafael at the First Methodist Church at 9 Ross Valley Road at 7pm! Ask people at http://www.palsolidarity.org and http://www.mecaforpeace.org or any peace activist who is honest! Ender is a complete liar! He just doesn't want Americans to know about apartheid, racist, anti-democratic Israel! Liar Liar! Pants on fire!!!! Ha ha ha! What a liar!!!!! But thank God we have the internet to find out the truth about wretchedly racist Israel!
by Ender
Oh, You mean I should beilve the ISM lies instead of what i see in front of my own eyes ?

When was the last time a non-violent ISM human shield hoped on a bus in Israel to prevent it from being bombed ?

If there was apprthied in israel wouldn'y it be easier to just prevent Arabs from going on buses instead of building what you falsly claim as "jewish only roads" - of course it would be but even to prevent suicide bombings we in Israel would not do such a thing.

Look I refuse to post on this thread - it is too long and loading it takes long minutes. Enough with the lies. We know who targets civilians in this conflict and it is the suicide bomers which ISM never even botherd saying one word against them. All the ISM does is bad mouth israel, giving an excuse to the Nazis and they also protect the homes of suicide bombers from demolition.

I drive every day in Israel and there are always Arbs driving next to me. My wife's ex-boss was Arabs and many Arabs works with her side by side. There is no aprthieid here. Go fix the racism in Oakland before you ugly american tell others what to do.
by Ender is a LYING PIG!
Ender and Ahmed (no doubt they are the same lying Zionist person) can lie all they want but remember this : You can fool some of the people some of the
time, but not all of the people all of the time.

As it just so happens, that thanks to the wondrous, miraculous internet, the TRUTH is possible to find. Anyone who has any doubt about the Jews-only
bypass roads need only do a Google search on the keywords "bypass roads in Israel" to discover the facts, the truth, which cannot be denied.

It's common knowlege about these Jews-only bypass roads! They are even mentioned in the Lonely Planet's guidebook to "Israel & the Palestinian
Territories"!

Everyone who's familiar with Israel also knows the truth that 92% of the land in Israel is for JEWS ONLY!
Just do a Google search on "The Jewish Agency" and even try "92% of the land in Israel". Ask around. Everyone knows this.

Ender and "Ahmed" (more likely his name is Moshe or Baruch) are trying to keep the truth hidden because they are Zionist Jews who want to keep
Americans in the dark about the blatantly racist nature of Israel, a "racist, anti-democratic, apartheid regime" according to an Israeli Refusenik soldier
featured in "Truth: Exposing Israeli Apartheid" by Wendy Campbell, a montage of footage from various peace activists, most of them Jewish American
who have been there. Send $20 to Wendy Campbell, PO Box 10458, Oakland, CA 94610 with your return address to get your copy of this informative
documentary video.
by Ender
You do not need to send me $20. I speak the truth for free.
by Wendyzee (wendyzee [at] hotmail.com)
Not to critisice anyone over abundance of free time here, but.... I notice that no one here seems to reside/hold citizenship in either of these countries. I do, born in one, living in the other. Y? Cause I was born in S.A. part of the liberating generation - we did the marches, attended the speeches, dated the the black boys, and what did we get? Even now as all of you smug north americans sit in your comfort, we are robbed, raped, mugged, in our own homes by the same people that we fought for. I have still not become a racist, even though I consider it seriously some days. I belief in the right of each person to be judged by his actions alone, regardless of race, colour, creed or sex. But the reality of South Africa today is a severe form of reverse racism. The country is going to hell cause no reasonable system was implemented prior to change-over, and we will suffer the consequences in years to come. And the whites of the 'apartheid regime' are not the ones suffereing, I can promise you that! We obtained our educations, and made our money - the western world is very good about fighting for freedom, but then the freed peop;es are exactly that - Free to starve, Free to die, Free not to get an education.
Yes there are many parallels between Israel and S.A.
But the situation is vastly different.
I won't go into that - I might live here, but I don't have all the info.
In closing - win the war, loose the peace - something all you first world liberals are very good at.
by ...
would some one please just give me the oppinions of the leaders, it's like impossible to find, i've been looking for hours on the oppinions of Ariel Sharon and i've found none and a whole lot of infermation!!! please just give me direct Quotes and his oppinion i don't care about the rest!!!
by Scottie
Wendy you are a space cadette
by D.
As far as I know, the fact that Israel is not forcing its citizenship on the Arab population of the areas conquered in the Six Days War should inform you of the intentions to relinquish this area, probably to become a Palestinian state (and its name might or might not be Palestine, as for names we in the Middle-East seem to be very creative, and a name is just a name). The distinction between the East Jerusalem population and the rest of the West Bank population should make you also see that Non-Jews were given the possibility of receiving the Israeli citizenship, as opposed to what your sources might have told you. Whether Israel should have or not annex East Jerusalem, it is beyond your capacity of understanding, since you have not been able to revise the immigration laws of a country that is totally democratic.
Oh! By the way, receiving a Green Card is a years long pain-in-the-ass process. Well, Israel also grants citizenship to non-Jews in a not less pain-in-the-ass manner. So for Jews it is easier... Guess what? Also for Spanish descent Latin Americans it is easier to be granted a Spanish and hence EU citizenship/// Not to talk about Nikkei (Japanese origin) rules for receiving the otherwise not-very-easy-to-receive Japanese citizenship. Are you saying that Spain is a racist country? Japan definitely is one, but I have not seen any UN chartered resolutions regarding the subject.
Do you believe in each people's right of self-definition? I guess you do. How about the Basques in Spain and France? I guess you support their freedom fighting. How about the IRA? Well, let's assume you have a possibility to distinguish between who has the right to have an independent nation. Can you really say that the Jewish people does not? If you have even the slightest doubt before answering we don't, than I can truly accuse you of Zionism, as this is its definition. I guess you did not really read the history of Zionism textbooks. A Zionist is a person who believes the Jewish people are entitled to a land of their own. Anyone can be a Zionist. Hence to be a Zionist does not mean to be racist. And it is absolutely non-exclusive with believing in the right of the Palestinian people to have an independent country of their own. As I do. I guess the bottom line of this comment - I believe that both Israel and a Palestinian state have the right to exist peacefully one beside the other. And I hope you also believe so, because otherwise there was no point to write this comment anyway.
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